Jeremy Carver Returning as Co-Showrunner for Potential Season 8

A very big shake-up is going on behind the scenes of Supernatural. At the end of the current season, co-showrunner Sera Gamble (who has run the show for the past two seasons since Eric Kripke stepped down with Robert Singer) is stepping down from the show.

If Supernatural gets renewed for an eighth season (which is basically a guarantee at this point), former writer and EP Jeremy Carver will return to run season 8 with Robert Singer.

This is a big change, but one I fully endorse. I’ve had a few complaints with the longer form arcs since Kripke left, and its entirely possible Gamble was to blame. Carver left the show after season 5 to run Syfy’s Being Human remake, bu this brings him back to the show that started his career. In case you’re a fan of Being Human, don’t worry, because that show will continue with Carver’s wife, Anna Fricke, running the show by herself.

Carver wrote a number of classic episodes, including the Trickster-centric “Mystery Spot” and “Changing Channels,” the flashback and time travel episodes “A Very Supernatural Christmas” and “In the Beginning,” and the 100th episode, “Point of No Return.”

He’s easily one of my favorite SPN writers ever (I’d put him third behind Edlund and Kripke) and I can’t wait to see what he could do with season 8.

What do you think of this change?

News posted on April 4, 2012 Comments (215)


  1. He wrote good stuff! I like this idea. plus i prefered the older style of the show (like s1-5)

    Comment by annie — April 4, 2012 @ 3:18 pm

  2. Singer & Carver will get this back to what we loved about the show. Not to say I have stopped loving the show. It is still my favorite show on TV.

    With these two running it a 9th and 10th season may not be out of question.

    Comment by JMC00 — April 4, 2012 @ 3:31 pm

  3. I like Sera Gamble and feel she has done some good writing. We don’t get to see very far behind the showrunner curtain, however, and so we can’t be sure what is behind this. But at any rate, I agree that Jeremy Carver would be an excellent choice to take over the reins. And I am glad to hear that Robert Singer is not going anywhere, because I feel like he is responsible for a lot of the heart in the show. (An opinion, based on the Paley panels, obviously shared by Kripke.) I hope Kripke’s new project and Sera’s future endeavors are all successful. And I want season 8!

    Comment by Andi Byassee — April 4, 2012 @ 3:32 pm

  4. I love Sera’s writing on episodes…but have wondered about the arcs and how they are drawn out and planned. There seems something not quite right. However, I loved this season for other reasons and let my critical arc issues go. Now…I think Jeremy Carver is amazing so all cheers to that choice. Happy Anticipation is how I best describe it.

    Comment by Jo — April 4, 2012 @ 3:36 pm

  5. Figured this was coming ever since I read Robert Singer say in an interview a week or so ago that they would best be served to go back to where this thing started- killing things and saving people.

    Comment by DougF — April 4, 2012 @ 3:40 pm

  6. I wish Sera well in her future endeavors. I think she might do well with a project that was her own brainchild. But I’ve had major issues with the story arcs and characterization under her tenure at SN. She did not, IMO manage that delicate balance between standalones and a larger serialized storyline nearly as well as Kripke did, and he didn’t always manage it well.

    Also, I think she’s been very polarizing because (wrongly, I believe) she’s widely considered to favor Sam as a character. I’m frankly sick of that debate, and now we can’t have it anymore.

    Plus I think Carver is awesome.

    Comment by Luluanne — April 4, 2012 @ 3:54 pm

  7. hopefully this will make the show better. i am excited to see how this might play out.

    Comment by karen — April 4, 2012 @ 3:56 pm

  8. I’m super excited about Jeremy Carver returning as show runner. He has written some of my favorite episodes and his understanding of Supernatural and the characters gives me hope that the show can get back to what made me love it in the first place! No doubt that this is a great choice for show runner:)

    Comment by Corina — April 4, 2012 @ 4:00 pm

  9. I’m glad he’s coming back and replacing Sera Gamble. Her tenure pretty much soured me on the series.

    Comment by ORLY — April 4, 2012 @ 4:02 pm

  10. Am I a horrible person for jumping up and down? She’s a good writer, but she should stick to what she knows. The last 2 seasons have had no direction and she seems more interested in MOTW and scares than the brotherhood and the myth arc. I’m sorry but I’m glad. Hopefully season 8 will be an improvement.

    Comment by Sara — April 4, 2012 @ 4:09 pm

  11. Being a showrunner is a thankless job. Best wishes to both Sera and Jeremy.

    Comment by Kyle — April 4, 2012 @ 4:14 pm

  12. This is a good decision!!

    Supernatural needed to move in a new direction. What they’re doing now just isn’t working. The leviathan story is horrible. Frankly, practically everything about season 7 is horrible (with the exception of Mark Pelegrino). Season 7 is the absolute worst and lowest the series has ever gone.

    Comment by JJA — April 4, 2012 @ 4:39 pm

  13. Can’t say I am disappointed. Gamble has not done well by our boys and I will be glad to see her move on. I never understood how someone who has been writing for the show since season 1 could have gone so far astray with the characters as she did. I hope the show will be renewed for an 8th season. And if it is, this information gives me good reason to hope that the quality of writing and character and plot development will improve. And the Impala will return.
    No ill feelings to her personally but I will not be sad when she departs.

    Comment by SL — April 4, 2012 @ 4:45 pm

  14. This is good news to me. Hopefully, season 8 will be better than the last 2 seasons have been.
    I’m hopeful again.

    Comment by Jo1027 — April 4, 2012 @ 5:13 pm

  15. As far as I’m concerned, there is a God after all. I thought S6 was the worst thing that could have happened to the show, and S7 isn’t turning out to be any better. Poor storytelling, poor plotting, poor characterization, dropped storylines right and left, trashed canon.

    I’ve given up on any interest in the plots or stories this season. After that awful Garth episode, I’m only going to finish up the season to gaggle at Jensen. I don’t even care if they bring the Impala back this season anymore, and I sure as hell can’t tell you what story they are trying to tell.

    I love Jeremy Carver, and this news renews my interest in the show. I couldn’t be more excited.

    Comment by Sheri — April 4, 2012 @ 5:18 pm

  16. Wonderful news. Gamble has been a disaster as a showerunner. The past two seasons have been dreary and depressing. It was a huge mistake to kill off beloved characters like Cas and Bobby. Carver seems to be a Cas fan and Jensen and Jared have stated they want Cas and Bobby back and wish the past two seasons were just a dream so maybe this means Team Free Will will somehow be back along with a more hopeful tone to the show.

    Comment by Jackie — April 4, 2012 @ 5:33 pm

  17. I just saw this for the first time on a ratings cite of all things. My first response was, “Don’t toy with me, people!” I couldn’t believe it. I’m not a Gamble-hater; I think she’s done some great episodes, and I, for one, am enjoying Season 7. But Carver is the writer of 2 of my top 5 episodes – Mystery Spot and A Very SPN Christmas. He knows how to bring the brother moments. (I also love his and his wife’s Being Human.) Get Shiban on board as a writer (another on my top 5 – Croatoan) and I will be in Heaven.

    Comment by RS — April 4, 2012 @ 5:42 pm

  18. In my opinion, Killing Castiel & Bobby was one of the few things Sera got RIGHT. I only wish they had stayed dead.

    I Think she had two BIG failures: (1) taking too long to set-up some good stories in season 6, but then abruptly dropping them without any real resolution in favor of these ridiculous leviathans, and (2) re-hasing in season 7 themes that should have already been resolved (such as the brothers keeping secrets from each other).

    Comment by JJA — April 4, 2012 @ 5:54 pm

  19. YAY….*_________________*. Best News I’ve heard since the birth of padababy. Yaaaaaaaaaaay. Thank You God…who loves Sam & Dean fighting evil.

    Comment by ozzie — April 4, 2012 @ 5:58 pm

  20. @ JJA: They should have stayed dead or not killed off at all. Killing Rufus for not good reason and bringing in characters like Garth and Frank (Bobby2) was stupid, too. Rufus should have been an ongoing recurring character. He looked and acted like a hunter while also providing fun humor, not the stupid stuff we get from Garth.

    Sock puppets and practicing karate…on SPN. Please.

    Comment by Sheri — April 4, 2012 @ 7:59 pm

  21. Carver can’t and won’t be worse, IMO. He writes a great/terrific Dean; and if his Sam was showrunner-mandated(hopefully), then maybe there’s hope for Show now. I applaud this change whole-heartedly.

    Comment by Sarah2 — April 4, 2012 @ 8:03 pm

  22. I will always respect and love Sera for what she brought to Supernatural. Her and Raelle helped forge that deeper insight into Sam and Dean and broadened the scope of what Supernatural could be. She is a terrific writer and I have loved every season of Supernatural for the different feel and focus. I wish her only the best in her future endeavors. I know she will be successful.

    I am ecstatic to have Jeremy Carver back! He has always been my fav writer, creative and fresh and offering some of my favorite brother moments in some of my all-time fav episodes. My dream team of writers would be Carver, Edlund, Tucker & Gamble and John Shiban. Supernatural has always had an amazing writing team and I have no doubt Singer and Carver will pull together more talent to wow us further! I have high hopes for S8 and beyond. I think there is enough creative juice here for many more seasons and I’ll be there, as enthralled as ever and awaiting the next inventive episode that will knock my socks off!


    Comment by bjxmas — April 4, 2012 @ 8:39 pm

  23. I’m hoping against hope that Carver and not Gamble writes the finale for this season. Edlund is doing 7.22, but no word yet on who is doing the finale. It’d be great if we got a Thompson, Edlund, Carver run for the last three, but that’s probably wishful hoping on my part.

    SG is a good writer, but she’s always been over her head with being a showrunner.

    Comment by Sheri — April 4, 2012 @ 9:51 pm

  24. @22. B.J., thank you from the bottom of my heart for your comment. I couldn´t have said it better. There will always be episodes that one may like less or more, but I embrace all of it because Supernatural still is one of the best shows on TV!

    Comment by Susa — April 4, 2012 @ 11:07 pm

  25. Feel really sorry for Sera. She’s written some wonderful episodes, and some of her ideas for the arcs of the last two seasons have been really quite ambitious, and wonderful in theory. It’s the execution that’s been lacking. I can’t point the blame at Sera, and nor should others, as we don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes. This must be quite an emotional blow for her. I hope she stays on as a writer, and proves to us once again just how damn good she can be. Stay, Sera.

    I’m in two minds about Carver. Being Human US, despite having two really good actors in the Sam’s, has turned out to be quite a disappointment. I love some of Carver’s SPN work, but don’t like the wackier stuff. If we get Carver and Singer working to bring the brotherhood back, that’s great, but I fear for what could happen to Supernatural if Carver and Edlund get together and indulge in their zany ways.

    Be careful what you wish for, fans.

    Stay, Sera.

    Comment by Johno — April 5, 2012 @ 2:39 am

  26. I’d rather have Carver than Gambles and if season 8 is the last one ,then so be it…and lets hope it goes out with a smashing bang.

    Comment by ozzie — April 5, 2012 @ 2:57 am

  27. @ Johno: Writing and showrunning are two different things. Execution falls under the showrunner position, as does things like being over-budget last year and the drop in viewership. From what little I’ve read, because of the budget thing, Singer was moved up as co-showrunner and given the budgetary duties.

    SG is a talented writer, but her plotting and pacing are terrible, she replaced horror with ‘personal feelings’ stories that are being much better done in things like Twilight and Vampire Diaries, she’s killed off characters for no other reason than ‘shock’ value, the last two seasons have been nothing but fanfics redone, and she’s replaced surprising the audience through good storytelling with audience manipulation. All of that, plus the other production problems that are quite evident this season (the editing department, for instance) comes directly from the showrunner.

    Carver is being pretty successful as showrunner of Being Human, but more than that, he ‘gets’ the Winchesters. He writes Sam and Dean both really well. I don’t think we’re going to see Dean pushed in the background and his stories jerked from him because he has a bedroom fantasy for the other lead.

    The best part of the news is that I seriously doubt they would cough up the money to entice Carver away from a show he developed and is running to come back for only S8. It could happen, but I’m thinking this is a good sign that more than an 8th season is planned for SPN if Carver can turn things around.

    Comment by Sheri — April 5, 2012 @ 3:44 am

  28. I’ll add to the above, that nobody is wishing any ill for SG. She is a talented writer and has given us some great episodes, but it’s pretty obvious that running a show is not her forte. I wish her only good things in the future, but I hope she does stay far away for SPN and finds other things that she can be excited about.

    Comment by Sheri — April 5, 2012 @ 3:55 am

  29. This is fantastic for the show, which has suffered hugely under Gamble. Bring Cas back as a part of TFW and the show will be must-see TV for me again.

    Comment by Laura — April 5, 2012 @ 5:36 am

  30. By all accounts it sounds like they’re going for a Sam and Dean as ‘Butch and Sundance’ feel next season, something Singer wanted this season but didnt really achieve for whatever reason. It’ll be Sam and Dean in the Impala ‘hunting things and saving people’ which is this shows bread and butter.

    I adore Carver’s writing, he is an excellet writer for both brothers and particularly for the brotherly relationship. I expect a more balanced season form him and Singer where Sam isnt pushed aside and forgotten while Dean is front and centre with his depression and self pity. I expect Sam might get to interact with other characters again, I expect the boys to research and solve their own hunts. I expect them to kick ass.

    I want to enjoy this show again. Dont disspoint me Jeremy Carver. Just give me Sam and Dean, two awesome hunters and two long brothers.

    Comment by tvmonkey — April 5, 2012 @ 5:48 am

  31. By all accounts it sounds like they’re going for a Sam and Dean as ‘Butch and Sundance’ feel next season, something Singer wanted this season but didnt really achieve for whatever reason. It’ll be Sam and Dean in the Impala ‘hunting things and saving people’ which is this shows bread and butter.

    I adore Carver’s writing, he is an excellet writer for both brothers and particularly for the brotherly relationship. I expect a more balanced season form him and Singer where Sam isnt pushed aside and forgotten while Dean is front and centre with his depression and self pity. I expect Sam might get to interact with other characters again, I expect the boys to research and solve their own hunts. I expect them to kick ass.

    I want to enjoy this show again. Dont disspoint me Jeremy Carver. Just give me Sam and Dean, two awesome hunters and two loving brothers.

    Comment by tvmonkey — April 5, 2012 @ 5:48 am

  32. The first thing they need to do is get rid of Cas and Bobby for good, no more bring characters back from the dead or wherevever the hell. Bring in some fresh blood but please no more Cas. Its not like he brings masses of viewers or anything.The show has proved it does just fine without him.

    Also some of the writers need to go. Adam Glass being the first one who should be shown the door.

    Comment by tvmonkey — April 5, 2012 @ 5:51 am

  33. @sheri

    Yes the constant pandering to Dean fans this season has been all due to Sera Gambles bedroom fantasies of the other lead?!

    I wonder would you be so against SG is she was in your eyes being seen to be indulging in her fantasies of your favourite brother?

    SG has wriiten some excellent episodes over the seasons a lot of Dean centric ones. Just because he isnt the Dean that suits your bedroom fantasies doesnt mean she should be out out to pasture. I hope she sticks around and writes many more episodes.

    JC is an excellent writer and from what I can see from his previous work a fair one he has written some amazing Sam episodes and some good Dean ones too. But he is probably best at getting the brotherly relationship right, I expect to see more focus on the boys tohether as brothers and hunters next season. Sam’s issues are over with so all they need to do now is get Dean with the programe before this season ends and then the show can go back to Sam and Dean ‘hunting things and saving people, as it should be. NO more ‘whats wrong with Sam’ coz seriously the guy has suffered enough give him a break and something to do other than convieniently dissapear off screen so Dean can interact with all the guest characters AND please NO more depressed Dean. The guy is seriously boring me to tears, how much time can one guy spend feeling sorry for himself seriously? Get them to a place where they’re good mentally and keep them there.

    Comment by tvmonkey — April 5, 2012 @ 6:09 am

  34. I’m all for Adam Glass going, too.

    It’s going to be interesting to see where the finale leaves us. Carver will have to work with or around that, and that’s why I hope SG doesn’t write it. A lot of damage can be done to the show between now and when that finale ends, or he can be included in the decisions and have it end in a good place for him to pick up from to lead the show forward.

    I view Cas and Bobby as being a big part of those decisions. Personally, I’m not happy with those two being brought back — especially Bobby as a ghost. There’s just too much throwing out canon and potential for more and more and more angst in that decision.

    But I’m not happy with Cas as an angel on the shoulder helper again, either. He simply became too much Mr. Fix, Mr. Know All The Answers, Mr. Humans Can’t Do Anything Without Supernatural Help for me, and I don’t want him as a human riding in the backseat of the Impala. So…I don’t know what Carver can do with him.

    SG has done HUGE damage to the show. I just hope Carver can fix it, and I’m going to give him a chance to do that, because I think it’ll take at least ten episodes to get the ship turning in the right direction.

    Comment by Sheri — April 5, 2012 @ 6:11 am

  35. Yes, a new show runner along with Bobby Singer, awesome, Sarah thanks for subbing for Kripke until we could get a new show runner, but you almost drove the show into the ground, you did good stand alone episodes, plus your hot.

    Comment by Nick — April 5, 2012 @ 6:14 am

  36. @sheri

    I dont know if you’ve read the synopsis for episode 20 but it sounds like Ghost Bobby might be in need of being sent to the otherside. Read the synopsis and see what you think, I just feel that it hints at Bobby not being around much longer. I expect episode 20 may be his last or at least he’ll be gone by the end of the season.

    Cas we have been told will be getting a more definitive ending, they didnt say he wouldnt be back but they said the storyline would get better closure than it did already this season. I hope that means we wont be seeing him aagain in any capacity.

    I think some new characters would be cool.

    Keep Crowley and Jody Mills

    Get rid of Meg

    I’m not sure about Frank or Garth

    Comment by tvmonkey — April 5, 2012 @ 6:17 am

  37. omg!! I am so happy cause my favorite seasons were season 4 and 3. Which were written by Erick Kripke so yay!! GO SUPERNATURAL

    Comment by Sabrina Khan — April 5, 2012 @ 6:46 am

  38. yes I am very happy because i season 3 and 4 were my favourite out of all. Although I am not saying that supernatural turned to crap after season 5 that would be just wrong

    Comment by Sabrina Khan — April 5, 2012 @ 6:52 am

  39. I just wanted to post a list of episodes that Sera Gamble was involved with on the writing side of things. This is for you “fans” of the show who are so quick to tear her down and say she needs to stay far away from the show. Here we go kids!

    Episodes co-written by Gamble:

    Season One

    Dead In The Water

    Season Three

    Dream A Little Dream Of Me

    Season Four

    Are You There God? It’s Me, Dean Winchester

    Season Five

    The Curious Case Of Dean Winchester
    The Song Remains The Same

    Season Six

    Appointment In Samarra

    Episodes written solely by Gamble:

    Season Two

    Crossroad Blues
    Houses Of The Holy
    All Hell Breaks Loose (Pt. 1)

    Season Three

    The Kids Are Alright
    Fresh Blood
    Jus In Bello
    Time Is On My Side

    Season Four

    I Know What You Did Last Summer
    It’s A Terrible Life
    When The Levy Breaks

    Season Five

    Good God Y’All!
    Two Minutes To Midnight

    Season Six

    Exile On Main Street
    Let It Bleed

    Season Seven (so far)

    Meet The New Boss
    Death’s Door
    The Born-Again Identity

    Now say what you want about Gamble’s shortcomings as a show-runner, I don’t think anyone can argue that she hasn’t made mistakes in that position. Saying she needs to stay far away from the show though? That’s ridiculous, especially when you can’t say that she hasn’t written several of the series’ best episodes.

    Even though this season is kind of a mess, Meet The New Boss and Death’s Door were widely praised by fans and it’s obvious that Gamble is still a great writer. It just seems like she couldn’t handle show running duties as well, that’s all.

    Comment by Marc — April 5, 2012 @ 8:44 am

  40. Not wanting her to be showrunner does not translate into a poor writer. I mean, I hated The Rapture that Carver wrote, because it was all about Cas and I didn’t and don’t care to know Cas’s backstory while the brothers play second string in their own show.

    Except for I Know What You Did Last Summer, her episodes are some of my favorites. Equally awful was Heaven and Hell by Kripe.

    But the minute she became showrunner, she fangirled her favorite character, and the following season her next favorite character. She had budgeting problems, her management was so awful, that she had production problems with late or such tightly secured scripts that both the Js, especially Jared, have made mention of it. She’s changed the tone and basic premise of the show. She’s built up support characters while ignoring the main characters. Showrunning was a major challenge that she never succeeded at.

    Once she is out, I don’t think she needs to come back. And since she’s into development, that should be her focus. If she does provide a script, I expect the script to be good, because she is a good writer. Just an incompetent showrunner.

    Comment by Sheri — April 5, 2012 @ 9:07 am

  41. @TVmonkey “constant pandering to Dean fans?”

    You must be joking. Or watching a very special version the show that most Dean fans would pay money to get but only seems available to Deanhaters such as yourself.

    Seasons 6 & 7 have been ESG wetdreams – between the over-woobification of Sam who is still so badass that he has to overcome suffering more than anyone ever in the history of the heaven, hell and earth (tm Gamble) to still manage to save Dean almost every episode. Even more laughably, when Sam is allegedly at death’s door, he is still hunting and saving people just n case we forget how awesomely badass he is. Meanwhile, Dean gets to wring his hands and drive once in a while.

    Dean, by contrast, has been stripped of everything that his fans love about him including his music, his car and much of his humor. Interestingly, it is those very things that Deanhaters on this board, such as Sammycat, have always resented. Interesting that a showrunner who is openly a Sam fan would it get rid of those very things elements of his characterization.

    The depression arc, which seems to have been dropped just like all of Dean’s other arcs, was never attached to his PTSD or experiences in Hell, was treated with the usual appalling lack of compassion that all of Dean’s suffering is treated with and has gone by the wayside so that it doesn’t distract from Sammy’s ridiculously over the top suffering.

    Meanwhile, everyone and his brother continue to crow about Sam’s strength and his suffering while ridiculously letting someone with mental illness, drive, carry firearms and lead hunts with no mention of the danger he is to himself or anyone else.

    Gamble has done everything in her power to diminish Dean and has clearly succeeded judging by the hatred directed by posters like you.

    Comment by Nico — April 5, 2012 @ 9:11 am

  42. Heck, I’ll give anyone a chance. Welcome Mr. New Showrunner.

    Now let me tell everyone what I would like to see:


    I sound like a vinyl record that needs to have the needle bumped so I can move on, so again:

    Gimme a fist fight, a car chase, a foot chase, I want a head blown off from a shot gun blast, a kick in the ass, tie someone up, drag them around, tackle them into the mud, hang ‘em from a tree. I don’t care who or what or how, just gimme something more than woe-is-me, boo-hoo, look-at me.

    It can’t take alot of money for some action scenes, can it? I mean, stunt doubles are all ready on the payroll, right?

    I have enjoyed the series, loved season two, took days off from work to watch seasons one through five in order on dvd. Would love to be able to feel that same exhileration for seasons eight through ten!!!

    Comment by Beanie — April 5, 2012 @ 9:35 am

  43. Sometimes can be good. Only time will tell how he’ll do if there is to be an 8th season of SPN :-).

    Comment by mys — April 5, 2012 @ 10:25 am

  44. Sorry, meant to say, ‘sometimes CHANGE can be good. Also, I know that my next comment might be off topic, but, does anyone know if Jared or his wife posted any pics of their little one yet?

    Comment by mys — April 5, 2012 @ 10:30 am

  45. Here! Here! Nico and Beanie. Less dark fantasy erotica (SG’s specialty) and more action horror.

    Nico – I totally agree with you on the deconstruction of Dean. The Impala and the weapons were the only thing left after S6, and now Dean doesn’t even have those.

    Beanie: Yes! Yes, please! Weapons, hunting, fighting, winning sometimes. Blood repeatedly splattered on the wall is not gore. I am so in the mood for a good slaughter and a good fight scene. The fight scenes they have had have only lasted a second or two. I just don’t see how that could be expensive.

    Comment by Sheri — April 5, 2012 @ 11:04 am

  46. Sera co-wrote my favorite episode, “Faith.”

    However, on her own, I have not liked her work.

    I think this is a good decision for all involved and I wish Sera good luck as she moves on, and Carver good luck as he returns.

    People will think I’m nuts, but I didn’t like “Changing Channels.” I have liked Carver’s other work, though.

    Comment by bestshowfan — April 5, 2012 @ 11:06 am

  47. Nico: Another good post. Thank You.

    Comment by SL — April 5, 2012 @ 11:34 am

  48. @Sheri–I wouldn’t go so far as to call Sera an “incompetent showrunner.”

    Being a showrunner is not just about story. She has to deal with budget issues, contracts, crew and behind the scene politics, and all sorts of other redtape.

    In terms of production value, Supernatural has never looked better. Plus, Sera got some very good actors to make guest appearances on Supernatural the past two years.

    The show needs to move in a new direction, which is why I think a new showrunner is good. But I don’t know enough to accuse her of being bad at her job.

    Comment by JJA — April 5, 2012 @ 12:18 pm

  49. I have a feeling that Carver will also get his share of criticism.

    Comment by inky — April 5, 2012 @ 12:33 pm

  50. Who knows? Supernatural’s season 8 may be just as big a disapointment as season 7. It may be even worse.

    Comment by JJA — April 5, 2012 @ 12:45 pm

  51. It’s Time for Supernatural to return and not be Sera Gambles Soapernatural. Sera turned Sam…souless and into the T1000 and she mellowed Dean out…by giving him an instant wifey and kid,in season 6, then in season 7 she again domesticated Dean and made him an instant daddy and she married Sam to crazy Becky and even married off Castiel and killed off Bobby …only to bring in Frank and another Ash type…guy…Garth.

    Gambles had Dean tuck in his shirts in season 6 and in season 7…take the impala and put it in storage again.

    Lets hope kick ass Dean returns with his impala and Sam doing his homework with his labtop.

    Comment by ozzie — April 5, 2012 @ 12:46 pm

  52. I’m very excited about this great news! I think Carver will tighten up the pace and bring the real action and badassery back! I think Sera is a good writer and I wish her luck in writing her own series which is why she’s leaving as showrunner I read. Carver/Singer will be a great combo. I wish Carver’s wife luck on writing “Being Human” by herself. I like that show almost as much as I like “Supernatural”.

    Comment by DeanSam1 — April 5, 2012 @ 1:22 pm

  53. Thank God. No offence to Sera, but maybe we can now go back to the show quality of Season 1, 2, 4 and 5. I miss that.

    Comment by Max — April 5, 2012 @ 1:34 pm

  54. But will the rest of season 7 get back on the rails? I briefly loved writing fanfic, but that has been nearly extinguished. Love the characters, but not the current direction. Just me; I know others have different feelings. But I cannot watch without Bobby Singer available as a living friend/father figure.

    Comment by Mal — April 5, 2012 @ 1:38 pm

  55. @ JJA #48: SG’s contract was up for renewal, but S8 has not even been announced yet. For somebody, probably WB, to fork up extra money to pull a showrunner from his own show tells me there is a lot going on behind the scenes, and that lot probably includes all that you mentioned.

    When one of the leads sitting right next to the showrunner at Comic Con, and neither even looking at each other or speaking to each other, something is going on.

    When both leads say they are reading the script as they sit in the make-up chair and have to call the showrunner because the dialogue is so off, as well as numerous guest stars complaining about late scripts, that is a production problem.

    When there are such obvious editing problems, where the leads are acting one way in an episode, and totally different in the next one, that is a production problem that runs behind the screens.

    When budgetary considerations are taken away from a showrunner and a director moved into that role, that tells me that there is serious budget problems.

    When the publicly-known showrunner is no longer appearing in the producer promos, there’s something going on.

    When secrecy becomes such that the fans have to be outright lied to to keep surprises, that is a showrunner problem that runs throughout the entire crew.

    When the actors do not get word that they were invited to the People’s Choice Awards, that tells me something is wrong in L.A., and then the president of the network personally pays for an ad commending the show and the two actors, that tells me there is something more is going on that we’ll never know about.

    All of that tells me there is a whole lot more to the story than the fans will ever be aware of, not to mention the collapse in viewership.

    That aside, because that is the stuff the network would know and be concerned about, I have found her ‘direction’ and ‘personal touch’ to the series awful. In addition, the really poor storytelling (and I don’t know what this season’s story is to this day), the snail’s pace plotting, building interest through pacing, the dropped stories, are all production problems that are very evident.

    I’m not the only one who has noticed this stuff. Many, many of the bloggers that review the show are complaining about the same things.

    All of that, and she sure tried to deconstruct one of the main leads for the sole purpose of building up her favorite. That alone is the most unprofessional thing I have ever seen done to a lead in a series.

    I don’t think incompetent is an unfair word at all given all of that.

    I fully expect Jeremy will have his work cut out for him and I hope the fans will give him the chance to work his way through it. I would guess that he’ll need half a season, at least. I’m sure willing to give him that.

    Comment by Sheri — April 5, 2012 @ 1:53 pm

  56. Sheri: Very well said. Valid points made clearly. I do hope- that in the not-too-distant future- we can find out from the actors how they REALLY felt about working under Gamble’s direction. Although sometimes silence does speak louder than words.

    Comment by SL — April 5, 2012 @ 2:11 pm

  57. @ SL: Both of these actors are way too professional to discuss that kind of stuff. Just JA speaking publicly last season about Dean’s domestication, Jared’s soulless story and budget problems was so out of character for him, I found it shocking…and he was pretty mild about it, putting it back on himself as “when you’re used to working with a certain character, it’s hard…blah, blah.”

    Even the guest star in this last episode, the guy that caught the boys drinking, said that he had to lay on the floor for hours while the boys rifled through the script. That means they were reading their lines for the shooting that was going on that day, which means they got a late script because of the Bobby surprise. That is no way to run a crew or a ship.

    Comment by Sheri — April 5, 2012 @ 3:02 pm

  58. God some of you people are idiots… ugh.

    Comment by Marc — April 5, 2012 @ 4:54 pm

  59. P.S. I’m done reading these comments. There’s just too much stupidity, speculation and people talking out of their asses about situations they know nothing about. “Oh my God, they didn’t talk to each other on a panel! Jensen must hate what Sera Gamble is doing!” Get a life you f’n losers!

    Comment by Marc — April 5, 2012 @ 4:58 pm

  60. Great news. Made my week.
    Sera’s SPN did not work. She IMO saw her male leads as most attractive when they are confused, troubled and in need of a hug–and willingly sharing their feelings like your best girlfriend. Applying that distinctly adolescent view of boys to Dean and Sam turned the series into a occasion to feel sorry for cute fantasy boyfriends for 13 year old girls. That’s what Dawn Ostroff wanted and Sera delivered–with the same result for SPN as it has been for most of Dawn’s CW series: ratings disaster.
    Fortunately, SPN pre-dated the CW and Dawn; it had a huge following nurtured on an action adventure series, hunting people, saving things. It had an audience who loved Dean as a kickass hunter and his big little brother–both of whom were working class males who in no way fit the “love me because I’m such a pathetic looser and want to share my feelings with you.” Sera had no feel, or interest, in the dynamic which made the series so distinctive: the surprisingly honest and realistic male dialogue between two brothers who love each other. It’s a tribute to the fans of SPN that most of them never gave up on that original series and openly and repeatedly expressed their opinion of disappointment in turning SPN into a teen-girl soap.
    Carver wrote some of my favorites (SPN Xmas, Changing Channels, Mystery Spot, Point of No Return) and a couple of my least favorites (the Rapture and The End), but he knows how to write the brothers with realistic male dialogue–and incidentally a Castiel script that isn’t a slash fiction knock-off.
    Sera wrote some good episodes; All Hell I and When the Levee Breaks were well done. I just think she didn’t like Krepki’s Dean and Sam and set out to CW them. She even depicted hunting as a trap that accomplished as much bad as good and left hunters Sam and Dean isolated and alienated from each other and themselves so she could perform episode after episode of pop psychology on them while shunting the action-adventure into the opening and closing few episodes.
    I don’t know who released this news. Was it the producers in an effort to win an 8th season by a promise of change? Was it Warner Brothers expressing confidence in its commitment to SPN and determined to rejuvenate the series? I hope it was the latter.

    Comment by CaseyT — April 6, 2012 @ 3:56 am

  61. Let’s just hope that it wasn’t a late April Fools’ joke.

    Comment by Aero — April 6, 2012 @ 6:20 am

  62. The worst thing about Sera being showrunner is what she did to the characters. I could’ve handle the bad directionless storywriting if at least we got to keep the characters and they stayed true to the brotherhood. But they couldn’t even do that. They separated the brothers emotionally and physically and radically changed the characters.

    Comment by Sara — April 6, 2012 @ 7:26 am

  63. So did Eric I mean who started all this lack of brotherhood and ripped the heart out of it.I dont mind if Sera wasnt liked has a showrunner I thought myself it wasnt for her , that she is a much better writer without the pressure of that mantle but she also had to deal with situations Eric created and he was still involved with the show as well.

    I just hope Jeremy Carver can live up to what everybody wants? he is a good choice so good luck to him.

    Comment by Lucy — April 6, 2012 @ 8:14 am

  64. Not gonna lie. I’m really pessimistic for next season. I almost hope there isn’t a season 8 if I’m being completely honest. I think this show is pretty much over and there’s no more story to tell. Jeremy Carver is a Dean/Castiel fanboy and also a Castiel enthusiast so therefore, I’m not all that optimistic for next season if there is one. I don’t trust the writers to write the brothers, especially Sam and their relationship effectively, but then again I haven’t had much faith and trust in the writers for SPN for years.

    Comment by Katie — April 6, 2012 @ 9:43 am

  65. @64 I’m actually more enthused because at least Dean finally has someone who cares about him for him. If anything the last two seasons were the ones that sucked out all the enthusiasm and interest in the story for me. It’s funny how watching Sam smirk as his brother turns into a monster and seeing him again throw a tantrum over a monster and leaving his brother over a hot girl monster isn’t what threatens the relationship. Ohhhh, no, it’s Castiel who hasn’t been there for most of this season while the brother relationship has been the crappiest it’s been even when they have nobody but each other.

    @55 ITA.

    Comment by ORLY — April 6, 2012 @ 10:32 am

  66. Hold on! How do you people know what is going on behind the scenes of Supernatural?

    It’s almost silly listening to various interpretations of what one guest actor said or why Jensen & Jared behaved a certain way at Comic Con.

    Dare I even suggest the possibility that JA & JP had a diva moment, which is the real reason why that poor guest actor had to lay on the floor for hours? I have no proof of this, but we can’t preclude it as a possibility.

    Bottom line: we do not have enough evidence to say Sera is bad at her job as showrunner. The only thing I know is that the season 7 story is bad. Hopefully this new showrunner will bring some new energy to the show.

    Comment by JJA — April 6, 2012 @ 10:48 am

  67. Better yet, I hope Jared leaves the show. Anything is better then the treatment that he has gotten both on the show and from the fandom for the last 7 years. Jared deserves better and I hope Sam gets written off the show so that Jared can move on.

    Comment by Katie — April 6, 2012 @ 10:52 am

  68. @67 Yes, let’s all push for Jared to leave the show and see what he’s capable all by himself.

    Comment by ORLY — April 6, 2012 @ 11:14 am

  69. @ORLY: Whatever. Jared will be fine without SPN. SPN is garbage anyways. Let it become the Dean/Castiel show for all I care. Let the ratings founder and let the show be cancelled.

    Comment by Katie — April 6, 2012 @ 11:24 am

  70. @64: Katie, I agree with you. Don’t let the haters get to you. I’m tired of the way Sam has been treated on the show and within the fandom for the last 6 years. It’s absolutely awful and embarrassing. I think now that jared is a dad, he should focus on his family. Misha did the same thing when he became a father. It would be great for Jared to spend some time with his son and get to know him. I think jared’s son is (and should be) jared’s top priority. Supernatural isn’t that relevant to jared’s life like it used to be.

    Comment by Jessica — April 6, 2012 @ 11:31 am

  71. @katie/Jessica I sincerely hope you both get your wish.

    Comment by Nico — April 6, 2012 @ 12:15 pm

  72. Though, Jessica and Katie, in that regard, Jared seems to possess more sovereignty than you.

    Comment by Aero — April 6, 2012 @ 12:21 pm

  73. @Nico Won’t ever happen. The day one or both of boys walk, is the day the SPN is over. They won’t continue the show without both of them. And I’m sure neither one of the actors will want to continue without the other. So keep dreaming.

    Comment by Sara — April 6, 2012 @ 12:44 pm

  74. Hey Sara, it’s the samgirls calling for Jared to quit. I just want them to be happy. Me, I’m fine watching a show about two brothers, their hot car and their band of hunter/angel buddies.

    Comment by Nico — April 6, 2012 @ 1:53 pm

  75. Jared’s on contract for next season. Filming for this season is over in a couple of weeks. He will have several months off with his kid before season 8 starts shooting.

    I am hoping that the new showrunner will be able to serve both lead characters well.

    Comment by inky — April 6, 2012 @ 2:42 pm

  76. @Marc, please refrain from personally attacking posters. It has already been posted recently that these kind of attacks will not be tolerated and the accounts of those doing the attacks will be deleted. I truly hope TPTB stick to their guns and do so.

    Comment by twinster — April 6, 2012 @ 3:13 pm

  77. Post #75. “I am hoping that the new showrunner will be able to serve both lead characters well.”

    That is also my hope. I am somewhat optimistic and will certainly give him a chance.

    Comment by Jo1027 — April 6, 2012 @ 4:33 pm

  78. Gamble was co-executive producer along with Singer, so I’m not sure why people have put the blame on her if they didn’t like an episode or the direction the show was going in since Kripke left. Even if she were the sole showrunner, it was unfair to hold her completely responsible for every decision. I’ve continued to enjoy the show very much since she took over, and she’s written some terrific episodes, including “Faith”, “Salvation”, “Crossroad Blues”, “Heart”, “All Hell Breaks Loose, Pt. 1″, “Jus in Bello”, “Death’s Door”…the list goes on…Carver has also written some fantastic episodes, so I’m not at all worried about him taking over. I just think Gamble deserves more credit and respect than she’s gotten.

    Comment by Ann — April 6, 2012 @ 6:04 pm

  79. Supernatural had an AWFUL lot of problems long before Sera became showrunner. Season 5 was an incoherent, retconned to the death mess. The deconstruction of Dean really began towards the end of season 5. Sera really has just continued the course set. It’s very likely she planned a turnaround of the character. Unfortunately for her, it just didn’t come soon enough. If it’s true that she’s leaving to create a show, then I’m very happy for her, and I wish her the very best. I’m interested to find out what she’s got planned.

    Some sobering points. In Season 5, Carver wrote four episodes. None of them particularly strong, but then again, the season had few mildy good episodes never mind strong ones.

    Free To Be You And Me- A Dean and Cas fest.

    Changing Channels- Bah! Sorry Carver.

    Dead Men Don’t Wear Plaid- An OK episode.

    Point of No Return- Big on Adam. Big on Cas. Not for me.

    Carver has done some good work, no doubt about it, but for me, there’s no evidence that points him out as a superior writer and showrunner.

    Being Human is zany, geeky, and cheap, and like the original, is most definitely inspired by comic books. It has a few redeeming features, but Sera’s Supernatural is superior in comparison.

    Comment by Johno — April 6, 2012 @ 7:04 pm

  80. “The deconstruction of Dean really began towards the end of season 5. Sera really has just continued the course set. ”

    Or the deconstruction of Dean began in order to facilitate the story Gamble had planned for season 6 and beyond – domestic Dean and most badass hunter in universe, soulless Sam.

    Gamble has said that she enjoyed seeing Dean put in his place (which is what she loved about Bela) and it seems that her goal was to do exactly that: put Dean in his place behind Sam.

    “Unfortunately for her, it just didn’t come soon enough.”

    Yes, apparently 2 seasons isn’t enough to stop spinning this character’s wheels.

    “Free To Be You And Me- A Dean and Cas fest.”

    If that’s all you got out this episode, I can only assume you FF’d through all the Sam stuff with his waitress cheerleader, the hunters that came for him, and his resisting his demon blood addiction. In terms of actual screentime, I am willing to bet that Sam’s portion was significantly longer. At least, that’s the way it felt to me.

    “Changing Channels- Bah! Sorry Carver. ”

    This episode is on many people’s top ten list so I think you are in the minority there. Personally, I loved it.

    “Dead Men Don’t Wear Plaid- An OK episode. ”

    Agreed but it did introduce Sheriff Mills who bonded with Sam. Again, something you apparently missed.

    “Point of No Return- Big on Adam. Big on Cas. Not for me. ”

    I had a lot of problems with this episode but claiming there was not enough Sam or brotherly stuff is a little bit ridiculous considering we got Sam finally showing some faith in Dean and Dean, once again taking the blame for his lack of faith in Sam (as if Sam had no part to play in the loss of trust.)

    While I think Carver writes Dean and Castiel well compared to Gamble in later seasons, he has always struck me as more of a Samfan. Just because he doesn’t sideline Dean and allows for other relationships on the show besides Sam and Dean, does not mean we won’t continue to get the Sam Show since that was what he cut his teeth on when he started.

    So I have no particular hopes that he will give Dean any part in the mytharc beyond being Sam’s brother. But hopefully, he will allow Dean to get his car and his badassness back. At this point, that is all I am prepared to hope for. But all this handw-wringing by Sam fans just tells me that they will not be satisfied until there is no one left on the show but Jared.

    Comment by Nico — April 6, 2012 @ 7:38 pm

  81. I just think it’s incredibly hypocritical of people who tsk-tsked Dean fans as greedy & disloyal and repeatedly told Dean fans that anything Sam does is reflected as glory on both brothers THEN turning around and screaming that it’s wrong/bad for Dean to have something his own because Sam is left out. I’m all “YOOOOOOOOOOOOO, this reflected glory business is bunk isn’t it because when it’s Dean doing it, well, it’s not enough for YOU and YOUR favorite character!”

    Comment by ORLY — April 6, 2012 @ 7:54 pm

  82. “claiming there was not enough Sam or brotherly stuff is a little bit ridiculous”

    I claimed no such thing.

    “But all this handw-wringing by Sam fans just tells me that they will not be satisfied until there is no one left on the show but Jared.”

    I’m a bi-bro fan, I love Dean, and I wouldn’t watch SPN without him. I also love John, Bobby, Ellen, Rufus, Samuel, Gwen, Jo, Mills, Gordon, Cassie (from season 1), others, and countless guest stars who’ve appeared over the years. I just don’t much like Castiel, and what the character brings to the show. I’m all for NEW supporting characters.

    Comment by Johno — April 6, 2012 @ 8:10 pm

  83. Castiel didn’t bring in the numbers. It’s likely the CW will drop the angel, and the present angle, and introduce a woman into the show next season as a recurring in an attempt to improve ratings. If it’s a strong character, then I’m all for it.

    Comment by Johno — April 6, 2012 @ 8:22 pm

  84. @83 I wouldn’t count on that. Lisa was unpopular.

    Expecting Castiel to somehow get a million viewers back the very first episode he’s back written by a well-known Castiel hating producer is really silly. There was no way in Hell I’d watch that live because I had no faith in her being able to resist making it all about Sam and making Sam fans happy by having Castiel sacrificed to make Sam better.

    Just admit you hate his guts. I wouldn’t expect Rufus to magically bring back a million viewers and I still hate they killed him because he was a great supporting character.

    It’s not like the brotherly relationship where everybody has been killed off has been doing gangbusters in the ratings even though it’s been what a lot of Sam fans have been praying for. Constantly praying for more of the same is going to just cause a ratings spiral.

    At best, anything Carver does will just manage to stop from losing people over the summer but he has to do something VERY different from the garbage being made now. This whole “only the brothers with Sam in front and Dean properly put in his place” crap has proved to be a ratings fail.

    Comment by ORLY — April 6, 2012 @ 8:37 pm

  85. “Castiel didn’t bring in the numbers. It’s likely the CW will drop the angel, and the present angle, and introduce a woman into the show next season as a recurring in an attempt to improve ratings. If it’s a strong character, then I’m all for it.”

    Two full seasons of badass/woobie/worstHellPain ever Sam didn’t bring in the numbers either. Neither did the episode heavily promoted as the big climax to that storyline, so what’s your point?

    As you are so fond of saying — this show is about two brothers. They are supposed to be the draw. If they need a side character to bring in ratings, there is something very wrong.

    Personally, I think it’s the fact that they refuse to let the brothers grow beyond their codependence and to facilitate that they keep shrinking their world instead of expanding it.

    Also, the fact that it is sold as a two-lead show but is ultimately only about one character and the the more popular guy gets nothing but being doomed to follow him around like a lost puppy. Perhaps having a show about nothing but a dysfunctional brotherly was fresh in season 1, but it has become the show’s albatross, forever weighing it down so that it can barely breathe anymore.

    Hopefully Carver, who has experience writing for shows with more than one lead, will manage to turn this back into a show about two brothers who live in a vibrant and interesting world. Hopefully, his idea of good storytelling isn’t just rehashing old ideas and just passing them back and forth from one character to another. Perhaps he will see that The Sam Show has gotten stale and will finally give Dean a purpose of his own.

    Comment by Nico — April 6, 2012 @ 9:03 pm

  86. Agreed, Nico. I’m bored of the painful dysfunction. When you still have Sam choose Amy over Dean after the Ruby fiasco, then there’s really no hope for the relationship at all.

    This “it’s about 2 brothers” mantra is laughable considering any time Dean got a storyline or friend, Sam fans were furious but then cooed when their guy got stuff Dean has never had like powers, destiny and the title of man who saved the world according to Adam Glass, who cited only Sam as having saved the world not Sam & Dean or Team Free Will. So I roll my eyes at it because it’s just a way of being blocking Dean from getting anything unless Sam gets something bigger and better like THE WORST HELL EVER!

    Comment by ORLY — April 6, 2012 @ 9:30 pm

  87. Spreading rumors about the show and what you all think happened behind the scenes isn’t cool..

    Spreading rumors about why you think the ratings are, going down to try and justify your argument without looking at all the facts just isn’t cool.

    I just wish some of you would try and take the time to either get all the facts and not make assumptions. It does make the fandom look bad as a whole.

    Just think before you post…

    Comment by Rumors — April 6, 2012 @ 9:39 pm

  88. I find it hilarious how people are complaining about Sera having a “favorite” when they can’t see passed their own favorite. Just because there is a new showrunner doesn’t mean all the problems of the show are going to magically go away. Furthermore, just because someone sees the show as Dean being put in the background or Sam the only important doesn’t mean that the rest of the fandom or the show sees it the same. Nor does it mean that every Sam fan wants only Sam on the show or every Dean fan hates Sam, just some few who seem to be very vocal on this comment section. (Probably, because here you can get away with almost saying anything and there is no regulation.)

    The rating have still held. The CW isn’t a rating powerhouse and other shows are doing worst. So, using the ratings as a way to figure how how the CW choses or how well the show is actually doing is a bit like basing how well politicians are doing for people who elected them by watching cable news. It’s stupid and the CW is most likely going to get dropped in even more markets.

    I have read a several different websites that fans have said that this season has been more Dean-centric and that Dean’s breakdown is coming or at least spoilers seem to point that way. So, I’m inclined to believe that this Dean has been left behind is just frustrated because Dean isn’t “special” just depressed. Which is understandable, I just wish the comments didn’t have to be so nasty about it. But then again, I could just not be used it.

    And it’s the same for a lot of Sam fan as well. I know several that didn’t like Sera either, because Sam was tossed aside or glossed-over. Like Sam just went from being told to kill himself (7×02) to completely fine and jogging and hunting in the next (7×04, 7×05). And then Sam is suddenly not fine, then fine again. A complete lack of Sam’s emotions and humanity shown.

    Both sides want what they other one has. Only an idiot couldn’t tell you that about the Supernatural fandom. It’s the common cry of all websites: Give Dean a mythological role of his own and give Sam emotions and a point of view. Throw in a few friends for BOTH of the brothers, and there is your starting point. It’s been that way since the end of season five and it’s still the same song, just the never-ending song.

    Truth is, Sera wasn’t popular. She’s a good writer that not a lot of people could stand. They didn’t like where she took the show and hated that Sam and Dean were left behind. It doesn’t matter whether you are a Dean fan or Sam fan or Castiel fan, most fans agree with the statement of the show has gotten too depressing. That’s why it isn’t doing well. It’s not Dean, Sam, or Castiel. It’s the fact that it’s on a crappy night on a crappy network and it’s too depressing. Three strikes. The show needs new life and maybe Jeremy Carver can bring that to the show.

    But that isn’t going to change anyone here. I guaranteed you that the changing of the showrunner isn’t going to change the way you view the show. If you are still holding grudging against soulless Sam or what happened back in the fourth season, then it doesn’t matter who is at the helm. If you still think Dean doesn’t love Sam enough and he is a jerk, then that’s what you are going to see. Whether it is a new showrunner, new cast members, different time, or you’re watching the show standing on your head, you will still think those thoughts first.

    If you don’t give a damn about the brothers together or their relationship and you are just watching for one brother, then this isn’t going to change anything. You will still have to deal with the other. At best, you might get someone to listen to the complaint of the supernatural fans and Dean will get a myth-arc storyline and Sam will be shown as having emotions and insight shown instead of us just being told that Sam is going through something. Or maybe there won’t be pointless drama, but after three years of watching fans wishing for this, you can probably safely bet that won’t happen.

    I don’t expect there to be a lot of changes in the show. And it’s just going to be the same crap in the fandom. Kripke was better, Gamble ruined the show, and now, Carver turned it into a zombie or whatever. Carver is going to be thrown into the lion’s den and under the bus just as much as Gamble was if not more because the expectations are so high.

    However, the second there is a joke directed at Dean’s intelligence or Sam and Dean disagree, then it is just going to hit the fan. And people will be calling Carver a whoever-fan and he is ruining the show. It’s just going to be another rerun of Gamble crap with Carver. The only difference will be there won’t be comments about woman-hating Supernatural fans. Unless, Mr. Carver isn’t telling us something.

    Comment by Nancy — April 6, 2012 @ 9:47 pm

  89. @85, Nico, the CW has been going downhill for years. The merger was a bad move. Supernatural moving to Friday nights was a bad move. That is what sunk the rating. The CW has been dropped in several markets. It has nothing to do with what the story of the show has been about.
    And as for the more popular guy, that is your opinion. A lot of fans like BOTH brothers and don’t see either as more popular. You are right about the show being too depressing and a lack of supporting characters, but that isn’t going to make the show go back to “glory days” by doing anything with that. It isn’t the Sam show or the Dean show. That’s kind of the problem.

    Gamble lost focus on the Winchesters. Too much Becky and Garth and witches and whoever else could get crammed into the forty minute episode. And as for Sam’s hell, there were a lot of people who think it was underused and that climax episode was billed as Castiel’s return. Hell, Sam wasn’t even featured in any of the promo-pictures. And it aired the same night “The Hunger Games” can out and during March Madness. So, what’s your point? Dean hasn’t been bring in the number either. The CW hasn’t been bringing in the numbers! Who cares?! And it doesn’t seem like it matters to the CW because this announcement pretty much says we’re getting another season. So, what does it matter? Why do you care? The network doesn’t.

    @86, Orly, if I didn’t know any better, I would say you and Nico are the same person. But what is laughable is how you can only seem to bring up Sam “choosing” Amy over Dean? Really, Sam was upset over his brother lying to him and going behind his back. After everything? Dean is going to lie to a guy who was having trouble with knowing what is real or not? How in the world is that choosing Amy over Dean? That’s not anyone choosing anyone over anyone! You are just looking for reasons to hate Sam and it’s crystal clear. And you do the same thing on the forums.

    Don’t lump all the Sam fans together. You’re not a representative of the Dean fans, so don’t say that Sam fans “were furious” because Dean got a friend. You look for reasons to be miserable about the show. Quoting Adam Glass? A guy who wasn’t even around in the fifth season?! What difference does it make? Does it really matter what some guy who you’ll probably never met says? If you think Dean’s a hero, then he is a hero. Instead you are looking for reasons to see Sam in the worst way possible and you drag Dean down with him.

    But there is no use. I’m just wasting my time. Now, I remember why I stopped coming here. Nothing but walls.

    Comment by Nancy — April 6, 2012 @ 10:18 pm

  90. Honestly, crap writing is crap writing. A lot of critics found the overall quality lacking and yes, some noticed some of the weirdness towards Dean.

    As for the ratings, you go from nearly 3 million with the season six premiere to jiggling between one and a half and one point seven. Some powerhouse.

    To be blunt, they wouldn’t have changed the showrunner if she hadn’t crashed the ratings. If she was getting 3 million plus, the network head would be kissing her butt and calling her a genius no matter how many people complained. They FIRED her because of the combination of bad rating and complaints. This nonsense about evil fangirls using some voodoo to get her off is stupid because if she was bringing in the critical raves and the ratings, she’d still be running the show and mocking anybody who disagreed with her. But hey, she bounced off the show.

    Sera brought this on herself. She could’ve written storylines where the brothers cooperated and made up and really worked as a team. But, no, she polarized fandom over and over again and now someone else has to clean up her mess. I’d rather feel sorry for the person who has to be the janitor.

    Comment by ORLY — April 6, 2012 @ 10:27 pm

  91. @89 Jeez, what is with the assumption that there can’t POSSIBLY be more than one person dissatisfied with Dean’s role in the show? I just see a lot of scolding that people should just enjoy whatever they’re given.

    As for Dean not bringing in ratings, well, it doesn’t help when people know he’s not going to be doing anything especially after tons of misleading PR suggested otherwise than turned out to be a lot of bait and switch.

    The whole argument that I should just view Dean as being treated as a hero by the show no matter how they write him is bunk. They want me to change my mind, it’s up to them to stop it with the degrading insults, the insistence that Sam’s Hell was worse, the stupid freezings so someone else can have the kill, having statements like Bobby saying Sam is the better hunter. When they give him a storyline where he matters and is acknowledged by other characters as a hero with no “buts” and “conditions” then we’ll talk.

    Comment by ORLY — April 6, 2012 @ 10:53 pm

  92. @91: I didn’t assume that there was only one person dissatisfied with Dean. I find you and Nico to very similar and it’s curious, but that doesn’t mean anything. I know plenty people dissatisfied with the show. No assumptions. And I’m not saying that you should just take what you’re given, but I don’t think you should go out of your way to see the bad like reading articles and putting tons of stock of what writers say in interviews or not even trying to see where the other characters are coming from.

    And I’m not sure I get where you are coming from about the ratings, but I don’t from what I do understand I don’t agree. It has nothing to do with the “known bait and switch”. Most viewers don’t go online and most viewers aren’t vocal. Supernatural isn’t promoted a lot in the first place. And it survives on fan loyalty. (And there are fans who think that Dean does a lot, so the opinion that Dean isn’t going to do anything isn’t something I think is a make or break ratings notion.) But Supernatural isn’t promoted enough and promo hardly show or tell anything. 7×17 was different, because it was heavily promoted online, but the reality is that doesn’t happen often. And the CW doesn’t seem to care about ratings or else a lot of showing would be cancelled. There are so many factors in ratings that it is a joke to use them.

    And no, view Dean, however, you want. But I find keeping score on how often the show does this or that and looking at characters as the worst doesn’t help. I don’t think other characters should be insulted because someone angry. But that’s my opinion. Just as I think that other characters have acknowledged Dean as a hero with no reservations. And I really don’t care how anyone else sees it. I don’t need to Dean to be super special for him to be a great interesting character.

    Comment by Nancy — April 6, 2012 @ 11:35 pm

  93. I’ve always see the whole “don’t be so numerically oriented” as a variation of the “reflected glory” argument. And it’s always used until it’s Sam that’s shortchanged. I’d hear years later people still mad that Sam wasn’t in “In the Beginning” even after he got the big win at the end of a five season arc. But complain that Dean didn’t get to be the one true vessel for Michael whether or not he was vesseled himself, you get told that Dean is human and should always remain human and that is that.

    And I’m sorry to say but the writing of the series agreed with that.

    Comment by ORLY — April 7, 2012 @ 12:33 am

  94. the show is the greatest so must keep on dudes
    greek mann out

    Comment by vaggx — April 7, 2012 @ 2:08 am

  95. Nancy–keep commenting. You bring a calm voice to the proceedings.
    IMO–Dean has not been neglected; he’s been awfully written in the past two seasons. Gambel was, is, far more interested in the interior/emotional life of characters; what they do in life is secondary and only incidental to her more important and much more fully explored examination of their emotional health. Gambel lavished her series on Dean’s depression, alcoholism, longing for a domestic life, grief at losses, etc. I think she would argue she gave Dean her best work. Sam got the less interesting, to her, action role, although that too carried a heavy emphasis on mental illness in 7 and lack of emotion as soulless Sam.
    Season 6 and 7 simply never developed any coherent, consistent action arc because Sera was, is, frankly not interested in writing an action series. She’s just not interested in what people do but why they do things and how their action impacts their emotional well being. There was/is a total imbalance of emotion and action strongly tilted to the emotional reaction side. She is basically a soap writer. The action in a soap is slowly developed and punctuated by dramatic events while most of the screen time explores the characters’ emotional reactions.
    Sera’s Dean was a classic lead in a soap. He was the narrator and the lead emotional subject. Sam (and Castiel) did things; Dean reacted, and Dean’s reaction was what the soap was about. Dean reflected the emotional load of their lives; he reflected all the loss, grief, guilt, and the full range of conflicting emotional reactions and symptoms of those concerns like sleeplessness, depression, and alcoholism.
    Like most people here I detested this Dean, but he was not neglected “in favor” of Sam or any character. Many fans still view SPN as an action series and viewing Sera’s series through those eyes, Dean was shunted off to being a weepy, self-centered, naval gazing, overly emotional side character. But, Sera’s SPN is not primarily an action series, it’s a soap opera–the emotional content is the message, and Dean was, and is, the principle emotion-carrying character.
    That’s just how I’ve seen it. Jared, from my viewpoint as an action fan, has had the better role the past two years, but not because Sera “favors” him but rather because he got the secondary action role in an emo series carried by Dean. Hopefully Carver is interested in writing an action series. If so, Dean will once again be watchable, and Ackles talent will not be wasted as the lead in SPN The Soap.

    Comment by CaseyT — April 7, 2012 @ 5:57 am

  96. Well, with Carver I feel that there’s now-and finally-some real hope that Dean(and Jensen) will be given a meatier myth-arc role. As for Sam, all I hope is that they will just stop making him a Marty Stu character(I think this is something that both of Carver’s predecessors on Supernatural pushed for and advocated in the latter seasons, though-so I hope that he will change that). I used to hope that they would write Sam as more appreciative and respectful of Dean’s hunting skills, but that’s been too rare and scarce for so long, that I’ve pretty much given up on that-which has, unfortunately, caused me to lose interest in the brothers’ so-called bond and relationship. And I won’t even get into the problems that I feel Gamble had during both of her seasons as showrunner with the storyboard of the myth-arcs-inattention to continuity, very, very poor pacing, and plotholes that you could drive a truck through, in addition to the obvious lack of new and creative material. And IMO, fawning over and being all-accepting of this type of mediocrity regarding the show, might work for some, but I say, thank God, it doesn’t work for us all. Best of luck to both Gamble and Carver as they take on new challenges in their careers.

    Comment by Sarah2 — April 7, 2012 @ 6:12 am

  97. Nancy nice job sounding like an oh-so-superior bibro. You almost had me fooled until you got into the mean-Dean-is-mean-poor-widdle-Sammy diatribe. You Samgirls always give yourselves away so easily. That’s why your claims to bibroism are so laughable.

    At least those of us that actually care about Dean, don’t feel the need to fake it. Also your claim that Dean is not more popular than Sam is just as laughable. Unless you don’t actually know what the word popular means. Some people liking both brothers is not the same a many people preferring Dean to Sam and we all know who wins most of the polls, although your apparent denial of that fact is rather cute.

    Of course, the ratings have gone down. I am sure there are plenty of reasons but the bottomline is that the writing has gone to crap and that is why Gamble has “moved on.”

    Your claim that Dean does not bring the ratings any more than Sam or Castiel, also nicely ignores the fact that Dean has not been Dean for two seasons as we have all previously discussed. And just because your ESG buddies on other sites say this has been a Deancentric season, does not make it so.

    Go back a watch the SDCC interviews or any interview this year for that matter and you will see that the vast majority of chatter from the producers has been about Sam’s worst-ever-hell-pain. Hell, even Singer recently admitted that the season focused on Sam’s emotional story. Of course, it isn’t enough for you Samfans. Nothing ever is, which is why those of us who like other character as well, feel you will not be satisfied until Jensen and Misha are gone for good and there is only one undisputed star. I won’t say lead because Jared already has that title but alas, he has to share the spotlight with Jensen and that seems to be the cruz of the problem for most of you.

    As far as the same complaints for three years – of you course that’s what you are getting because nothing is changing and in fact, it’s getting worse, at least it is for Dean fans many who feel that he has never been more marginalized, as has Jensen who is no longer even allowed to do press interviews apparently.

    So be as condescending and superior as you like in your posts but that does not change the fact that your ESG agenda is ridiculously obvious and that you are down in the mud with the rest of us fighting for our favorite character.

    Comment by Nico — April 7, 2012 @ 6:59 am

  98. “Like most people here I detested this Dean, but he was not neglected “in favor” of Sam or any character”

    No CaseyT most people do not detest Dean. Only your little mafia of I’m-bibro-but-I-hate-Dean gang.

    I resent that the character has been stripped bare, but I still love the character and feel for him. The reason he has been stuck in the storyless pit of emotional melodrama is because Gamble was too in love with the idea of woobie/badass Sam who is all she has talked about for the past two years. That is why people accuse her of being an ESG like yourself.

    Nancy, CaseyT sounds just like Taz and Sara and the other deanhaters on this board. Are you going to accuse her of being a sock puppet too?

    Comment by Nico — April 7, 2012 @ 7:12 am

  99. @98 As you pointed out, in interviews, Sera talked and talked and talked about Sam. Didn’t she talk about Sam’s “Beautiful essence?” That really does not sound like someone who’s NOT in love with one Sam Winchester. And grudgingly talking about anything regarding Dean doesn’t sound like any sort of Dean fan to me.

    @Nancy I just think if you really are as bi-bro as you say you are, then you should tell Sam fans to chill out if/when Dean gets a myth arc and not to be so numerically obsessed and that anything good for Dean is good for Sam. I don’t plan to hold my breath for those postings though.

    Comment by ORLY — April 7, 2012 @ 7:26 am

  100. Nico–you are absolutely right IMO Dean “has been stuck in the storyless pit of emotional melodrama.”
    And you are right about Jensen being the most popular character in the series; if the internet chatter is a true measure of popularity, which I expect it is– although I’ve never seen a survey which measures the entire audience. We apparently both want the character in the arc and redone and returned as an action hero. We disagree as to why he is stuck in that storyless pit. You seem to think it is a personal choice because Gambel much prefers the Sam character. I think it is because Sera is far more interested in emotional melodrama than action so she has lavished her real interest, emotional melodrama, on Dean. Ackles, IMO, is better than Padalecki at the emotional stuff; if I were Gambel, with her interests, I’d choose Ackles to play that role.

    Comment by CaseyT — April 7, 2012 @ 8:24 am

  101. I never claimed to be anything. Nico and Orly, you want to paint me as a Dean hating Rabid Sam, fine! I do not care! I never said that I was a bibro or a Sam fan or a Dean fan. Where did I say that I even liked either brother? You two need to quit thinking I’m some evil person telling you I’m superior. I did nothing of the sort. You want a scapegoat and I don’t care. Guess what, I never said Dean was mean. How is saying Dean lied translate into saying Dean is mean and Sam is the victim? Again, you see what you want to see. The whole I had you fooled, Nico, is a joke. I bet you had your mind made up about before you even finished reading my post. I never had a fair chance with you. And laughing at the fact that fans actually like Sam. That’s not ground-breaking. There are so many different opinions and websites there is no telling who is the most popular! For all we know, Castiel is more popular than either of them! (And just so you know, it was Dean fans who were talking about how much this season has been about Dean and how they hope it pays off in the end instead of them getting fooled, not Sam fans).

    I don’t need to go back and watch interviews. Nor do I need to understand how you know so much about the ESG fans. I have no idea how you got wanting Jensen and Misha off the show from my posts, but you did! You have to turn me into some condescending superior ESG to try to tear me down. You say I’m in the mud? I’ve been here less than twelve hours and I did not say anything you claim I’ve said. You just translated into what you think about other fans! You assume that you know everything there is about my agenda and me. Across the Internet mindreader?

    And going after someone because they said something to me is weak! People have a different opinion from yours and they can express it here. You don’t have to call people Deanhaters just because they view the show differently from you! Some people don’t feel like Dean has been marginalized or neglected in fan of Sam. That is their opinion, just as yours is Dean has! That doesn’t make someone an ESG. But why is that you can go on about this like Dean call everyone has ESG and yet, people can’t LIKE Dean? People can’t feel like Dean is still Dean? CaseyT, was stating her opinion! That doesn’t make her anything according to your standards.

    And Orly, I did not say that I was bi-bro. I did not say that I was any type of fan. I said that both side of the fandom would still complain no matter who is at the helm of the show. And no, I will not post that the Sam fans need to chill out, because right now, I only think that you and Nico need to chill out. I didn’t address either side or tell either the Dean fans or the Sam what to do. I gave a different opinion and shared my experiences elsewhere. And you and Nico, couldn’t handle it or acknowledge the fact that I have a right to a different opinion or that there are a ton of factors in everything that go into the show. We weren’t talking about Sam. We were talking about Dean. You have no idea what arguments I would use for Sam.

    And I’m not going to. It is pointless! I swear, Nico and Orly, this is why I think you are the same person! It is amazing how both of you just write me off as a ESG or just assume that I am trying to act superior. You both are telling me how to view the show and what other fans want!!! You both keep telling me what people have said in interviews and I have already said that I do not care what they say in interviews! The two of individual people both act like your opinions are the law and you speak for the entire Dean fandom or know what every ESG or Sam fan wants. WALL!

    Thank you, CaseyT, I agree with a lot of what you said and I would love to have a conversation with you about this, but it isn’t allowed here. I’m not going to put up with being called this fan or that fan, because I have a different opinion or being told what to post. I’m sorry. But this is ridiculous!

    Comment by Nancy — April 7, 2012 @ 8:27 am

  102. @100 Read Sera’s interviews, she really is more into talking about Sam, Sam, Sam.

    Comment by ORLY — April 7, 2012 @ 8:28 am

  103. Nancy you butthurt is hilarious considering your entire post was attacking my opinion rather than simply disagreeing. Using more polite language does not disguise the intent. I called you superior and condescending because that is exactly how your post came across.

    The fact that you only call Dean out for lying while giving Sam a pass for doing the same (he was not honest with Dean everytime because he hid the Lucifer hallucinations on and off all season).

    Also interesting that think only ORLY and I need to chill while you apparently have no problem with the hysterics from people like Jessica and Katie who are calling for Jared to quit. Do you honestly find that to be rational discussion? Or do you simply see and agree with their particular brand of histrionics?

    I called CaseyT a Dean hater because she says she “detests” Dean. I can’t think of a stronger word to express one’s dislike of a character so my label is accurate from what I have seen of her posts. The fact that you praise and defend her, once again, only indicates your true agenda. Just because you refuse to admit it, does not mean that other cannot see through motives.

    If you refuse to acknowledge the documented bias in the showrunners interviews because they do not support your agenda, then again, that merely reveals your true colors.

    People are not stupid. We have all been in this fandom long enough to recognize the various factions and their particular brand of propaganda and you fall into a very particular group as do I. The difference is that I am honest about my motives. I am a Dean fan and I want him to have a worthy storyline. Clearly you have a problem with that so, again, that suggests that you are not a fan of Dean.

    Bottomline, if you call people out, expect them to defend themselves and shine the spotlight back on you. If you are so thin-skinned that you cannot take the kind of criticism you seem happy to dish out, then that is a your problem not mine.

    Casey @100 At least we can agree that Gamble had done Dean a great disservice as a character whatever her reasons.

    Comment by Nico — April 7, 2012 @ 8:51 am

  104. Some of you people have no clue what the hell you are talking about. But then again I don’t expect you all to get the facts before spouting off at the mouth.

    Comment by Rumors — April 7, 2012 @ 8:54 am

  105. I’m looking forward to the change, change is good! I will say I was rather taken aback at the “most everyone here detest Dean comment”. WTF???? That is so wrong on so many levels it almost doesn’t deserve a comment. Dean fans who are real Dean fans do not detest this Dean. Sounds like the same ole, same ole comments that Dean is constantly crying, weeping, etc… What a bunch of crap. Heaven forbid if Dean shows just one iota of heartache then the attacks. I too and hoping Dean will find some resolution to his depression and start kicking some badass SPN freak (and get the Impala back, damn it!). I admit I’m a Dean fan but I also love Sam (just not as much). I’m hoping for more episodes of the brothers really working together and not against each other. I am so looking forward to a season 8 with both leads.

    Comment by twinster — April 7, 2012 @ 9:28 am

  106. Orly–
    OK, that a reasonable request. And, since I follow SPN closely, I have. Interviewers ask where the series is going? What’s going to happen? Sam, as I have said, has been the action figure the past two years. The questioners assume action in an overall plot. Sam has carried what little action and coherent plot there has been.
    What is she going to say about Dean? In season 6 he is going to fret about Sam soullessness and Castiel’s activities, and for season 7 he’ll drink a lot, show grief at the loss of Castiel and Bobby, be really depressed, show repeated signs of alcoholism, have a complicated reaction to Castiel’s return, register rage at Dick, get advice from Frank? None of that is what interviewers want to hear. It’s boring!
    Gambel’s honest reactions should have been: “Stop asking these questions about an action series. SPN has been transformed into a series where one gets my in-depth psychological insights into the emotional reactions humans have to loss, grief, guilt, and the betrayal by a close friend. And, Ackles portrays the heart of what I am doing the show wonderfully.”
    I fully admit I may be wrong, and this treatment of Dean is the result simply of Samfangirl Gambel “favoring” her boycrush. But, really, Sera is a grown professional women, not a 15 year old girl with a crush. Her professional life was on the line. She produced the program she wanted and it was pure soap and Dean got the primary emo role. I don’t particularly like what she produced or the role given to Dean, but the Sera Samfangirl explanation just doesn’t explain what happened to me.
    Nancy–just ignore the personal attacks. The moderators have indicated they aren’t going to tolerate that any longer.

    Comment by CaseyT — April 7, 2012 @ 9:33 am

  107. Nico–I said I detest THIS Dean–and the rest of the post explained why I thought THIS writing of Dean was bad.To me Dean is a fictional character. He being written poorly IMO. He is not a real person I could love or hate. I thoroughly enjoyed the writing of the character seasons 1-early 4, since then it has been downhill.

    Comment by CaseyT — April 7, 2012 @ 9:43 am

  108. Rumors, I am floored by your brilliance. Throwing out vague insults is such a great tactic in convincing people to shut up. In case, you didn’t get it, that was sarcasm.

    Comment by Nico — April 7, 2012 @ 9:47 am

  109. Nico, how is not caring become not being able to take criticism?

    I am not hurt by your opinion in the least. I addressed the comment about Dean, Amy, and Sam. I don’t need to drag up everything little thing the brothers have done to match up or excuse one over the other. Why does it always have to be tic or tac? Why do I have to comment on both brothers?

    I said that you and Orly need to chill, because you were attacking me from the first post. Katie and Jessica aren’t around, so why do I need to call them out? We’re having this conversation. I am speaking with you, not them. If they were commenting, then I would address that, but they’re not around. Why would I tell someone to chill when they aren’t the ones I am talking to?

    I try my best to see the show on my own and not worry about what bias the showrunner might possibly have. I based what I see onscreen and not what I read on the Internet. That does not reveal true colors. And I have no idea why it matters what agenda I might possibly have? What difference will it make? The show will still keep going on whether I post here or on some other website.

    You do not know me and assuming what faction I am just because of some comments because you have been around for a long time, doesn’t mean that I am some propaganda machine. Perhaps, I do fall into a particular group, but I do not think I post enough for that. My experience on the message boards has been very different. I find that everyone has a different opinion and you cannot just lump them in together. I have no problem with you being a Dean fan or wanting a good storyline for him. But I would not for a second put you into a category saying that you want Sam off the show or just the Dean show based on you saying that. You’re an individual, not some random group.

    In my first post, I addressed that a common wish of the fandom was a good mythological story for Dean and more emotion and point of view for Sam. I do not have a problem with that. I don’t agree, but that’s just my opinion. No agenda. No intentions. And that doesn’t make me a this or that fan. Why do I have to be any type of fan? Why can’t I just enjoy the show and have an opinion outside that? Perhaps, that’s the group I fall into. The group that dead-tired of the never-ending Sam fans vs. Dean fans crap. I don’t want to be a part of any of that. That’s why I against being called any type of fan.

    We don’t agree. We don’t even agree on the interpretations of our comments! I have tried being polite with you and I have tried not being polite. We cannot agree. I don’t want to debate on what I am in regards to the fandom. I will defend myself on that. You want me to take criticism for being something you think I am being. Because you say so? You keep assuming what I am. That is your problem. You are putting whatever interpretation you want. And I will defend and criticize that.

    I’m not going post about the show when I think it is just going to be twisted in some sort of “agenda settings” and personal attacks.

    Comment by Nancy — April 7, 2012 @ 10:01 am

  110. Report ‘em or skip ‘em. There is no need to put up with personal attacks. We’ve already been warned about the terms of service and I hope the admin follows through because it is ridiculous to have to worry about attacks from people who can’t stand that someone else sees the show differently. It’s just bullying.

    Every Dean fan and Sam fan is entitled to an opinion without fear of being attacked. And people are entitled to disagree. Just because it’s someone’s opinion, doesn’t make it fact. We can speculate all day long about why things are the way they are but truthfully we don’t know what goes on behind the scenes.

    Comment by beth w — April 7, 2012 @ 10:13 am

  111. Nancy I am not assuming anything about you personally but I am reading your posts and getting my impressions from that.

    If you really didn’t care, then why bother commenting. If you don’t want to be part of the Dean vs. Sam crap, why make those kinds of comments in your post? Why only criticize Dean and defend a Dean hater if you do not want to be seen as taking sides?

    You contradict yourself at every turn and yes, I will call you on that if your comments are directed at me.

    As for your giving Sam fans a pass, you first post addressed only me and ORLY. You inserted yourself into that conversation, which is fine. But again I ask, if you are calling us out, why not the histrionics on the Sam fans side. And again, why defend self-proclaimed Dean “detester?”

    I don’t care what your agenda is but I will not let you get away with trying to bamboozle anyone by claiming you are bibro and therefore your opinion should carry more weight. That is exactly the tactic used by ESGs on this and many other boards, so yes you will be lumped in with them if you only attack Dean and Dean fans and give Sam and Sam fans a pass. It’s really not that complicated.

    Comment by Nico — April 7, 2012 @ 10:20 am

  112. I did not claim anything! And I am not trying to bamboozie anyone! I never claimed that my opinion carried any weight, you did that! And I don’t think that my first comment started any Sam or Dean crap. It was turned into that. I commented on your comments first, because I disagreed on why the show was going downhill and it went from there. And once again, you are determining who is a Dean-hater and who isn’t by your standards, despite, what the person says. Did you just disregard the explanation of why someone doesn’t like how Dean has been for the past few seasons?

    But you are right, I shouldn’t bother commenting. I have no idea what you want. I disagree with you, I’m slapped with a label. I call you out on it and I’m not calling enough people out and contradicting myself. You want me to go after other people, but you don’t want me to post my opinion or post for that matter. And if you didn’t care about my “agenda,” you wouldn’t of create it in the first place! I never had one! You said I did! I guess we’re both contradicting ourselves at every turn. I didn’t attack you. I shared a different opinion. I won’t make that mistake again.

    You win, Nico. You should be so proud of yourself. You remain as nasty and attack personal instead of addressing what I disagreed with you on and won. I guess it’s not that complicated when you just attack anyone who shares a different opinion. Congratulation.

    Comment by Nancy — April 7, 2012 @ 10:48 am

  113. Oh the humanity!

    You know, martyrdom has also become a very prevalent trait among the group you claim not to be affiliated with.

    Again, post, don’t post. I don’t care. But if you are going to talk to me, I will talk back. If you don’t like what you hear, your problem.

    And yes I do stand by me label of calling people who detest Dean, Dean haters. Doesn’t matter when they started to hate him, fact is they hate him now. Hence “hater.”

    Also anyone who thinks Dean is selfish for becoming depressed (a chemical and clinical condition) could not have had much love for the character to start with. Sure, they may have loved Dean as long as he was Sam’s nursemaid and doormat, but the moment he stepped out of that role, they turned on him like rabid dogs. Another common trait that you should be familiar with and no doubt will defend vociferously.

    Comment by Nico — April 7, 2012 @ 11:46 am

  114. I thought personal attacks aren’t allowed, or are they only okay by certain people?

    Just remember not everyone watches the show the same way attacking members because they don’t see a particular character the same way as you is wrong.

    Good lord I think some people in this fandom need to chill out….

    Comment by Rumors — April 7, 2012 @ 12:33 pm

  115. Can someone please tell me what an ESG is? I really do not know.

    This forum is known for its constant disagreements among fans. There is more disagreeing than anything else here.

    That said, everyone should feel free to post their own comments here without being concerned if it fits in with the “majority” of posts. No matter what you post you are going to find at least one person who is going to disagree with you. Fine, that is their opinion. You just stick by your own. If you do not want to/or feel the need to respond to other commenters, don’t. You said what you think. If you wish to discuss the differences in your opinions, go right ahead. But know that no matter how rational you may try to be (or think you are being) you are just not going to get everyone else to agree with you.

    When I first started posting here I rarely disagreed with anyone else. I didn’t necessarily agree with them, but I didn’t want to disagree. I learned better. I post what I think and what I believe and I stand by it. And it doesn’t matter to me if anyone else here agrees with me or not. I am always interested in reading other people’s comments and thoughts- even if don’t agree with them. But I stand by what I post and I won’t let anyone else’s comments “shut me up.”
    So post what you want, accept that you will have plenty of people who don’t agree with you, but stick by your own opinions.
    For a long time on this site I was one of only 2 or 3 posters here who supported the character of Castiel. The hatred and vile comments spewed here against my opinions and the character were both inane and insane. But I stand by completely how I felt about the character and every word I posted then and now.
    My advice: post your comments and ignore the ones you find offensive or outrageous. But expect to get feedback. Whether you want it or not. Its a guarantee here. As it should be.

    Comment by SL — April 7, 2012 @ 2:58 pm

  116. You know what I can’t figure out this season? Why are Sam and Dean so emotionally separated. All the showrunners have said that the brothers are closer than ever, but that’s not what I’m seeing this season.

    I am also hoping against hope that Edlund or Carver write the finale, as well as Carver having input on where they leave off this season.

    Comment by Sheri — April 7, 2012 @ 3:02 pm

  117. Folks, lets pray this show gets cancelled. SG has done so much damage, that nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, can save this show. Not anymore. Pray Jensen and Jared get new shows with hopefully better writers, and forget the SAD mess SPN has become.

    Comment by Jo — April 7, 2012 @ 3:19 pm

  118. @Sheri, The writers obviously believe that the brothers getting along and being in the same room together is the equivalent of a strong brotherly bond. Hopefully they wake up.

    Comment by Sara — April 7, 2012 @ 3:26 pm

  119. SL, ESG is an Extreme Sam Girl. EDG is an Extreme Dean Girl. People have also used ECG for Extreme Castiel Girl.

    It typically means that the fan is a girl who is very vocal about their favorite and only want their favorite to be acknowledge and the center of the story. They want the other characters off the show and they make their opinions very clear. Generally, they are nasty about their opinions and don’t say anything nice about other characters and they don’t want the brothers together. But for the most part, it’s a small group of fans who are very vocal and normally, nasty about it. Mostly, the terms are used to accuse people of being rabid fans who are haters of anyone who isn’t their favorite.

    Comment by Nancy — April 7, 2012 @ 4:07 pm

  120. It’s also an attempt to shut someone down. If you accuse somebody of that, then you have supposedly negated their argument.

    Comment by inky — April 7, 2012 @ 4:30 pm

  121. Thank You Nancy and inky. I really did not know what that meant.

    Comment by SL — April 7, 2012 @ 4:38 pm

  122. Well, I won’t post to agree, disagree or argue with such avid, passionate fans of Supernatual. You cannot take from Sera Gamble all the success she has had in writing some brilliant episodes. I have to admit that she earns my respect for her writing creativity. I don’t pretend to know how hard it is to be the front runner for such a popular show. I wish her well in her endeavors, what ever they may be. Good luck to Jeremy Carver. An actor is only as good as the script and the direction they receive. Let’s see how it all unfolds now.

    Comment by Delia — April 7, 2012 @ 7:08 pm

  123. Anything that brings back the original format of the show. I miss the classic rock music and if I have to watch them drive away in a Pacer station wagon again I will turn it off and never return.

    Comment by Pam — April 7, 2012 @ 7:12 pm

  124. For those of you who want SPN to be cancelled, just stop watching and let us who still love the show and love watching it, enjoy another season or 2.

    Comment by twinster — April 7, 2012 @ 7:57 pm

  125. @ Jo #117: Actually, I am hoping for ten seasons, and I don’t think S7 is as bad as S6…well, up until this last Garth episode anyway. With that, I’ve given up on any story they may be trying to tell and am just watching episode by episode.

    Despite not knowing what the story is, the awful plotting, and weak stories and all the rest, I can think of a couple of ways the finale may turn out to be good. I’m not going to hold my breath, but this show is still the only one I watch every week and it’s still good TV. I’m hoping Jeremy will make it great TV again.

    @ Pam: Oh, God, that Pacer. I don’t even think Jared could fit in a Pacer.

    Comment by Sheri — April 7, 2012 @ 8:37 pm

  126. I’m a big fan of Season 6. Loved the structure and the story line they brought to the table. But season 7 has been an epic train wreck.

    I don’t think she got kicked out. I think she had an opportunity to leave and work on something that fits her better, and they made a mutual agreement to bring back Carver.

    Smallville was more up and down than Supernatural has been, but their Season 7 was a massive failure (the writers’ strike didn’t help things either). After 7 seasons it seems is when a show starts to lose its ground. A massive change is needed and Smallville got right back on track with 8-10. I’m sure the same thing will happen to Supernatural and 8-10 will be great I’m sure (yes, I believe they will go ten seasons, as Smallville did, and end it there).

    Carver has written some of of my all time favorite episodes, and I always felt Sera played it a bit too safe in her writing, where as Carver (and Edlund) aren’t afraid to get a bit wacky and shake things up a bit, which I think is wonderful.

    Sera is very talented, but I don’t think she was fully prepared to take the show over, and this season she definitely missed her mark (whatever mark that was).

    Good luck, Sera, and I look forward to see what show you are going to.

    Comment by Jeff — April 7, 2012 @ 11:16 pm

  127. Sheri–I think there is a chance Carver will have input into the finale and I hope so. I think it is being filmed this week. This change may well have been in the works for weeks. Its been said many times that the finale will include a cliff-hanger–even in season 5, the cliff-hanger set up Sam coming back to set up 6; surely Sera had input into that to set up her ideas about the following season.
    The question of the guys being distant is an interesting one. I think one of the problems was consistency of character. Characters who are consistent can relate to each other in the kind of subtle ways that make for a special relationship for the viewer. The viewer knows from a look or a simple line what both characters are thinking and how they are reacting–the viewer becomes almost part of the relationship. The Winchesters had that; it got lost as Sam and Dean seemed to become different characters, or take on new characteristics, or even switch characteristics every 5 or 6 episodes.

    Comment by CaseyT — April 8, 2012 @ 5:55 am

  128. @ CaseyT: You may be right. I think the exceedingly tight control on the scripts and not getting them out in a timely manner (as a way to keep surprises) has added a lot to that, too. I don’t think the actors or the director’s had any idea from one script to the next what was going to be unfolding. As a result, the directors weren’t directing to and the actors weren’t acting towards the final result.

    The final result is that the two brothers don’t even act like they particularly like each other in more, IMO. I don’t think Dean trusts Sam at all, and I couldn’t tell you what Sam thinks about Dean…if he thinks about Dean. We’ve gotten a couple of remarks about Dean’s drinkiing, but nothing really that drives home he thinks Dean is messed up.

    It’s all very weird, and I kept thinking as the season drug out that there was a sub-plot in there somewhere. I don’t think that anymore. I think it’s just another unintended consequence of a poorly done season and bad storylines for the two actors.

    The one thing I hope Carver does is get the brothers back in their own characters…do away with the damned role reversal. I would really like to like Sam again, which I haven’t since the end of S3. I’d enjoy being invested in Sam’s as well as Dean.

    PS: And I’d really like to see a picture of that baby.

    Comment by Sheri — April 8, 2012 @ 7:49 am

  129. Killing off cas was a bad idea, i am damn glad he is back! I wasn’t that impressed with the start of season 7 to be honest, it was very slow, however its starting to get better now. If there is a season 8, and i hope to god there is, to make it explosive, we need more comical cas episodes like the ones where he turns human and the one with famine where he eats all the burgers hahaha. You absolutely have to bring God into it as a character… after all that build up with them trying to find him for the search to end with “it wasnt his problem” was kind of gutting to be honest, i would have loved atleast one scene with God, cas, lucifer, and michael having one of those epic family moments where God comes in gives his speech and makes it all better sort of thing. Also an episode that goes back in time to the dawn of the universe where God and Death are first getting to know each other would be cool as hell!

    Comment by Allan — April 9, 2012 @ 2:24 am

  130. I’m glad sara gamble is stepping down this season has f’n sucked its no longer a mix of humour and agonising drama its all up in the air and doesent seem to be a clever twist in sight…

    Comment by Andy — April 9, 2012 @ 3:12 pm

  131. You are right, Andy. SG is nothing if not predictable, and she seems very unwilling to take the risks that would lead to clever twists, surprises, and drama.

    Just look at the Soulless Sam story. It was not well received at all, yet she has continued to string it out for two seasons.

    Look at Crowley. He was an interesting, charming character when he was a ‘frenemy’ of the brothers. Self-serving and evil, for sure, but willing to team up to meet his goals. Last season he became just another evil, losing all the charm the character had. I’m interested to see what she does with him this season.

    Meg, who was the toughest evil the brothers have encountered, is now set up for redemption by helping the brothers out with Cas. Meg, that evil b**** that killed Ellen, Jo, Caleb, Pastor Jim, and all of Mary’s relatives (except the ones she didn’t kill apparently), tried to kill Dean when she possessed Sam, then tried to beat him to death, tried to kill John; the one completely devoted to her father, the YED, who turned her loyalty 100% to Lucifer. I want her dead…not Dean agreeing to work with her.

    SG has thrown out canon right and left, leaving the continuity of the whole series in shambles. Look at GhostBobby…the ghost who can cross salt lines if he’s carried in Dean’s pocket and a ghost that doesn’t drop the temperature when he shows up to help. It’s ridiculous.

    In trying to make Sam her fantasy everything, she has completely lost Sam’s character. We never know which Sam we’ll see from episode to episode, and in doing so, she has completely destroyed the heart and soul of the show…the brothers great love for each other.

    In changing Sam to fit whatever episode is written, she’s completely nurtured Dean (and I think that was intentional). If it weren’t for JA protecting Dean’s character as much as he can, despite the awful writing and storylines, we wouldn’t recognize Dean either.

    I look forward to seeing where Carver takes the series and the characters. I don’t think he can possibly do any worse than has already been done to the series. I’m thinking the only way to go is up. He may not reach the SPN glory days, but EK pretty much destroyed that with Swan Song anyway. I bet whatever Carver does, it will be better than we’ve had these past two years.

    Comment by Sheri — April 10, 2012 @ 8:33 am

  132. Shari-I liked soulless Sam and I don’t think I’m alone. I thought Jared’s performance in that role was the one really watchable thing about season 6. Wish Dean had been given something equally challenging, but he wasn’t.
    Agree about Sera’s good/evil thing. She takes the simple truthful IMO that everyone is capable of good and evil runs with it like any soap writer: characters who are the good guy turn into the bad guy, and back again as a matter of course in that genre. It’s those dramatic shifts in characterization that provide drama in a genre that has much more to do with personal shifts in mood and motivation than action. There is no canon–the emotional setting of the moment is the point.
    But, hopfully, all that is over and there will be some consistency and believable character development in a season 8. Dean and Sam are among the best hunters in the world by now. I’d love to see that a take-off point for the rest of the series.

    Comment by CaseyT — April 10, 2012 @ 9:52 am

  133. I think most fans of SN want to get back to basics. The show for me is about 2 people (Sam and Dean). There’s been far too much attention paid trying to develop other characters, instead of concentrating on the main theme of the show – Dean and Sam fighting evil.

    Personally, I can’t have long story arcs. I’d prefer more standalone episodes.

    It’s a difficult and thankless task trying to please everybody and I think Sera Gamble has done good work with what she had to work with, later on the show.

    Maybe they should have a competition and ask for a episode to be written by a fan/s of the show.

    Comment by JBM — April 10, 2012 @ 10:01 am

  134. @ CaseyT: I think it is generally viewed across fandom that S6 was a mess. Some did like Soulless Sam, but even those that did, I think, feel that there was no character development for Sam in that story. I didn’t.

    I couldn’t tell you today was the core of Sam’s character is. He went from the normal, smart, empathetic brother, to being psychic, to being the chosen one to lead an army for YED (an army against what, I don’t know), to turning evil because he was stupid to fall for demon manipulation, to Lucifer’s vessel, to a redemption which was negated because he came back soulless and was more evil than anything he hunted, to being permanently mentally ill. What does any of that tell me about Sam? At least we have been left with Sam is alright now…I think.

    And to give equal time, Dean has been totally deconstructed and w/o character development, too, except that I believe Dean has learned from the mistakes along the way. Well, I think he has. I don’t like this working with Meg thing, but I’m going to go with Dean fights dirty and will use whatever he has to use to get the job done. I just don’t know what that job is in this case. Putting Cas on ice until it’s time to bring him in to finish his 3-episode arc? Or put Cas on ice until he is needed to save the day? Or put Cas on ice until he resurrects Bobby? It’s anybody’s guess at this point.

    I hope the soap drama is over once this season ends, too. I do like a mytharc, but EK screwed his all up and SG can’t pull one off.

    Comment by Sheri — April 10, 2012 @ 11:56 am

  135. “I think most fans of SN want to get back to basics. ”

    If by basics, you mean logical plot and good character development, then I agree. But you can do that with more than just two characters who spin their wheels between the premiere and finale episodes of a season.

    “There’s been far too much attention paid trying to develop other characters, instead of concentrating on the main theme of the show – Dean and Sam fighting evil.”

    I don’t even know how that’s possible considering all the other characters have been killed off. Castiel has only appeared in 3 episodes this season and one of them, for less than 5 mins. Last year, he had a bit more focus but most of his story happened off screen.

    Bobby has got a couple of episodes focused on him before he was killed off, but the character generally just blows whichever way the plot needs him to, so I wouldn’t even call him a real character anymore. He has become nothing more than a plot point and the writers’ mouthpiece.

    As for Sam and Dean, their development has been completely stagnant but I don’t think it’s because of other characters, I think it’s because of the lack of them. The obsession with keeping the brother completely codependent while trying to create dramatic tension has forced them to never grow or learn from their experiences. Sam still runs off the minute he doesn’t get his way and Dean still sees his primary purpose as Sam’s nanny. Of course they love each other, but I don’t feel like they like or respect each other very much anymore. That is character devolution forced on them in the name of their epic love story, but in fact, it is a deeply unpleasant relationship for me to watch these days.

    “Personally, I can’t have long story arcs. ”

    I don’t care about the length of the arc as long as there is a sense of momentum and urgency built into it. Supernatural was never great at that but at least the first five years felt like they were building to something. These past two years, I feel like the mytharc is basically the writers throwing a bunch of stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks with no care given to logic or plot progression. That is bad story-telling in my opinion.

    “Personally, I can’t have long story arcs. ”

    Sure. Why not? I really don’t think it could get much worse at this point.

    Comment by Nico — April 10, 2012 @ 12:45 pm

  136. @ Nico: “If by basics, you mean logical plot and good character development, then I agree. But you can do that with more than just two characters who spin their wheels between the premiere and finale episodes of a season.”

    I so want logical plot and good character development for a change. But if you are advocating an ensemble cast, I don’t want that. I would like to see the SPNverse expanded, but not with permanent, recurring characters of the calibre we’ve seen. Cas, we know, is already back. As long as he doesn’t get the whole season again, I can live with that. I am hoping that GhostBobby is not hanging around forever or that there is a ridiculous resurrection in the works.

    Both of these characters were killed off and should remain dead and gone. We are to believe that God brought Cas back for some reason, and I can somewhat see that; him being an angel and all, but Bobby is 100% human shot-in-the-head dead and should stay that way. Death has already been so cheapened in the show that it is no longer even interesting as a passing event.

    If the SPNverse is going to be expanded, I certainly hope it is not with characters like Krissy, Garth, and even Frank.

    Over the last two years, we have learned more about Cas and Bobby than we have the brothers. Just in this last episode, we learned more about Garth than we did the brothers. Since SG took over, the guest stars have had more focus on development than the brothers have.

    I’m definitely not against guest stars on the show, but I am against not having the focus on the brothers and stupid scenes where guest stars eat up screen time, when more productive focus could be put on the brothers or something connected to the brothers story.

    As far as codependency, I’m sure not seeing that this season. Sure, the brothers are together, but they don’t even act like they particularly like each other. Particularly, I’m seeing Dean as not trusting Sam and as no longer being solely devoted to him. If Sam wanted to leave, I think Dean would be okay with that. If Dean wants to leave, I think he would without looking back.

    It’s more like they are together because they don’t know anything else. In fact, I’ve been wondering what all this emotional distance means, if anything. It just may be an unintended consequence of having the brothers having separate non-connected stories.

    “I don’t care about the length of the arc as long as there is a sense of momentum and urgency built into it.”

    Exactly. There’s certainly isn’t anything urgent about the Levi (if that is the mytharc this season). The Levi aren’t actively looking for the brothers, and the brothers sure aren’t being proactive about them. We leave Cas horrified in a corner as his brother talks to him, and he’s barely mentioned in the next episode. The Impala is hidden away, and never mentioned again. It goes on and on. Let’s hope that changes.

    Comment by Sheri — April 10, 2012 @ 1:31 pm

  137. “But if you are advocating an ensemble cast, I don’t want that. ”

    This show will never have an ensemble cast, nor should it. But there was absolutely no reason to kill off beloved side characters such as Ellen, Jo, Pamela, Rufus, Castiel and Bobby. In order to build a viable universe, you have to populate it otherwise it becomes empty and sterile. I feel that is what the SPN verse has become and that is reflected back onto the main characters who have no relationships, making it almost impossible to keep them three-dimensional now in the way they once were.

    “Both of these characters were killed off and should remain dead and gone. ”

    Again I disagree. Seven seasons in, it is almost impossible to start from scratch. Gamble tried to do that this year with characters like Garth and Frank and we see what a failure that was. She tried to replace Cas and Bobby with them, but in order to do that, the audience needs to know them and become invested in them. That is why so much time was spent on trying to build them up every time they appeared, but that’s not how it works, at least not for me.

    With Cas, Bobby and some of the characters who were introduced before, we have relationships built over time and care that bring depth to our protagonists. You cannot just instantly build that trust with the audience or the brothers with brand new characters in one episode like they have been trying to do this season.

    “Over the last two years, we have learned more about Cas and Bobby than we have the brothers. Just in this last episode, we learned more about Garth than we did the brothers. Since SG took over, the guest stars have had more focus on development than the brothers have.”

    Perhaps that is because we know everything there is to know about Dean and Sam and every combination and permutation of the relationship between them. Seeing them interact with characters other than each other is the way to discover new facets of our heroes. Putting them in situations with different characters makes them less predictable.

    At this point, Sam being in danger and Dean rushing in to save him at all costs, has been done to death, literally. How many ways can that same dynamic be played out it without feeling stale and repetitive? For me, there is nothing fresh in this well-mined territory.

    However, for example, I was intrigued watching Dean interact with Krissy, a young girl with hunting instincts. That was a different side to Dean and I enjoyed it the fresh perspective on the character, at least until the ridiculous ending designed to make Sam and Krissy look good at Dean’s expense.

    “As far as codependency, I’m sure not seeing that this season. Sure, the brothers are together, but they don’t even act like they particularly like each other. Particularly, I’m seeing Dean as not trusting Sam and as no longer being solely devoted to him. If Sam wanted to leave, I think Dean would be okay with that. If Dean wants to leave, I think he would without looking back. ”

    To me, that is the very definition of co-dependence. Two people who don’t appear to make each other but remain stuck together for external or internal reasons. Either way it is unhealthy for both of them and uninteresting to me after years of watching them dance the same steps.

    Obviously they must remain together physically because it is the show’s mandate. But the constant need to contrive conflict between them in order to create dramatic tension has made this relationship toxic and unpleasant for me to watch. When the show gives me nothing else to latch on to like side characters and their relationships with Dean or Sam, then I feel like I have no reason to tune in anymore.

    I also find it interesting that you say that Dean must be solely devoted to Sam, yet you do not place the same expectation on Sam. If Sam walked away tomorrow, I would not be the least surprised because that is what he has done since season 1. The character has not shown any growth in that area as we saw this year with the Amy debackle. So why should Dean be expected to give his undivided devotion to someone who has and would choose the first alternative that comes along? That makes Dean a chump and I love the character too much to see him stuck in such a one-sided relationship. The fact that he seems to simply be going through the motions these days is probably the healthiest thing about the relationship as far as I’m concerned. It means Dean won’t be left broke-hearted when Sam, once again, chooses something or someone else over him.

    Now if they wanted to actually fix the relationship, I would like to see Sam showing some genuine concern, affection and respect for Dean. Not just when he thinks Dean is danger but on a day to day basis. Right now, all I get from him on a good day is tolerance. Even Dean’s depression is met with not much more than impatience. Dean meanwhile, should be allowed to finally shed the burden of caring for his brother who is always is the midst of one crisis or another. Sam the victim who needs Dean to take care of his problems and then turns around and resents his bossy, over-protective brother. Sorry but I have grown completely tired of that dynamic and it has not changed since the first season.

    “It just may be an unintended consequence of having the brothers having separate non-connected stories.”

    What unconnected stories? The stories this season has been the Leviathans which they are both chasing even if Dean is slightly more invested and Sam’s hellpain which has forced Dean to hover exclusively around Sam. Those stories are shared.

    Dean’s depression should also be a shared story but with Bobby telling Sam that he should only be concerned about himself and not Dean, the show has made it clear once again, Sam’s problems are the priority needing the attention of both boys and Dean’s are an afterthought requiring nothing more than a couple of suck it up speeches so that is not actually even a story the way I see it. It is scene filler in order to meet Jensen’s screentime requirements.

    So this season I feel the main stories are shared more than they have been in the past several years. What is more apparent is that the Js are shooting scenes separately in order to give them more time off. That is a result of getting rid of the support cast in order to focus on the brotherly relationship seems to have backfired and Dean and Sam are both physically and emotionally more distant from each other than they have ever been. The difference is that they are not interacting with established characters that I care about, just shoddily written and acted newbies who I could not give a crap about.

    Comment by Nico — April 10, 2012 @ 3:50 pm

  138. I do believe we are speaking the same language, although I do not think the stories are shared. Up until this last episode, I did feel Dean’s was connected to the mytharc (the Levi) and Sam’s was just Sam dealing with his latest problem. Sam has focused on the small hunts to keep his hallucinations at bay. Dean, we have been told, was focused on the Levi, although I haven’t seen anything proactive there — but that’s what we are lead to believe with the phone calls to Frank.

    I still think Dean’s is connected to the mytharc, but after this last episode, I’m not so sure that he will be all that important in taking Dick down. He should be, since we’ve been hit over the head with him hating Dick so many times, but we’ll see.

    I in no way implied that Dean should be solely concerned about Sam. As far as I am concerned, Dean should have ran Sam over with the Impala in S6. I was rooting for it, in fact.

    I still can’t figure out why the brothers are hunting after Dean got Sam’s soul back, and I don’t think the show has given me, as a viewer, a good explanation of that. There is no joy, no hope for a better future, no light at the end of the tunnel, and that has been part of the problem for two years now.

    I’ve been pretty vocal that Sam’s hellpain is a non-stgory. That story, along with the soulless one, keeps Sam right where he started the series.

    Dean, with his alcoholic, drugged, revenge depression is just being further deconstructed. GhostBobby, however, is connected to the flask and the flask is connected to Dean, so either the drinking is going to be his story or the revenge is going to be his story. In between Asian teenage prophets, old girlfriends, Cas’s 3 episode arc playing out, and a resolution to Bobby, something should play out there, but I don’t know how that is going to be connected to the mytharc in the end.

    What I do think is happening is that Dean has gotten over being consumed with concern about Sam, and whether that is intended or an unintended consequence of a poorly done season, I can’t tell. What I am seeing, intended or not, is that Dean does not trust Sam. What I see from Sam is that he has no idea how far gone Dean is, although this last episode, Sam got his first hint.

    Again, that’s how I am reading the season so far, and it is highly likely that that will all be turned around in the last five episodes.

    As I said, I like support characters, and I like the individual brothers interacting alone with support characters. What I don’t like is the sorry substitute characters that were brought in this season. I don’t give a crap about them either.

    I can take or leave Cas’s return if he is not Mr. Fix-It call-on-Cas Cas again. I particular like the Cas and Dean friendship (better than Sam and Dean’s for several years now). I do not like Cas being given his own season story that made the brothers’ support characters in their own series. I do not like Cas if he is only comic relief, and I do not like Cas being a Winchester.

    I stand by my feelings on GhostBobby or resurrected Bobby. If they do bring him back, I hope he isn’t YodaBobby where the brothers have to call on him for every single thing and he can kill stuff with his eyes closed. I did not like how they retro’d and elevated the relationship with Bobby to Daddy, and I didn’t like Bobby yelling at Dean about poor Sammy season after season. That said, I liked Bobby, but I don’t like audience manipulation in lieu of good storytelling. Killing Bobby to bring him back or have him linger is lazy and cheap storytelling.

    When you get right down to it, neither Bobby, Sam, Frank or Eliot Ness have been all that helpful to Dean in their advise. Cas is the only one that had an appropriate response to Dean, telling him that he was human and validating his feelings of distrust. We’ll see where that goes.

    Personally, I’m still mad about Rufus and Ellen. I think of Jo no better than Ruby2 (and I hated her). I’m happy that that misstep in the series was finally killed off. Pam had run her course, too.

    I have not lost my interest in Sam and Dean’s journey. I’m hoping that Carver will bring that journey back to life and get the show back on track.

    Comment by Sheri — April 10, 2012 @ 5:31 pm

  139. Nico & Sheri: Good posts and good points.

    I, personally, do not believe this show can function properly without a good supporting cast. The BIG dilemna the boys were supposed to face this season was being completely alone with no one to turn to but themselves.

    That premise has been a disaster. Killing off Bobby, the Impala and Cas (having wasted Rufus, Ellen and Jo) did leave the boys alone and what did we get from that? A rather boring, hollow season. Dean has been depressed (justifiably) and Sam has been fighting off his inner demon so neither one of them have been able to support the other. And it showed in their actions in most of the episodes so far this season. They are either fighting each other or else some “guest” character (be it hunter or witch) is saving their asses.
    And notice how quickly the idea of “being completely alone) went down the drain and we got wonderful Frank and Garth flying in to take center stage and make the stars secondary.
    This season has been a mess. Not as bad as last season which would have been a series-killer for any other show but the fans have kept this show alive. But still a mess. And killing off Cas, Bobby and the Impala were three of the stupidest things Gamble and Singer and crew could have possibly done. Perhaps if the boys had been written as the actual boys (allies and hunters) the show would have done better. But that hasn’t been the case. Result: low ratings and Gamble out of a job.
    I hope we do get an 8th season but if we do I know they have to give the Winchesters back their base- their car, their family, their allies.
    Without them we are going to continue to have the hollowness that has been present throughout these past two seasons. The heart and soul has been missing and the boys can’t bring it back to the show if they don’t have it themselves.

    Comment by SL — April 10, 2012 @ 9:28 pm

  140. This show died with Kim Manners almost half way through season four. Enough said. All the episodes he directed had the magic of the brothers chemistry. I guess a person who knows he is dying, also knows what is important in life.

    Comment by Ginger — April 10, 2012 @ 10:12 pm

  141. First: Sorry for my bad english, i´m from germany, which is also why i haven´t seen season 7 yet. But season 6 was quite a disappointment for me, too, especially after the fantastic finale of season 5. I had a feeling that something was simply missing from the show. The only thing that I liked there were Sam´s mental breakdowns. I guess it will do Supernatural no harm that JC is taking over the wheel now.
    You know what would be a nice scene? If it would come out that Sam kept Dean´s necklace, that he had given him for Christmas when they were little, and then he would return it to him, don´t you think?

    Just two questions about season 7: What happened to the Impala and what about the music? Because as far as I remember, classic rock was some of the things that made the show special, but I missed it a lot in the latest episodes.

    Comment by Mary Turner — April 10, 2012 @ 11:47 pm

  142. @ SL #139: There was no need for the season to be hollow. We were told this was a Butch and Sundance season. SG even said she had all the writers watch the film before the season started. Butch and Sundance remained true friends and close partners while on the run. They took their situation seriously, but they had fun along the way, and they used their heads and guts to escape; not stereotypical TV teenagers and incompetent residual characters. There was so much potential in that scenario that could have worked well, but SG chose a soap route instead of one of those. Choosing to drag Sam’s hellpain story over a second season and to further deconstruct Dean’s character was absolutely the worst choice that could have been made and is indicative of SG’s lack of appreciation, or dislike of, the very core of this show (the brothers’ undying love of each other). She knows better, and I just don’t get why, after S6, she still doesn’t get it.

    # Ginger #140: There should be no doubt in anybody’s mind that Kim Manners was the creative force behind this show. It may have been EK’s creation, but Kim kept him on track.

    @ Mary Turner #141: In A Very Special Supernatural Christmas, Sam gave Dean the amulet, showing that he was putting all his trust and faith in Dean and, basically, sealing their special brotherhood. Dean threw it away when he lost faith in himself, Sam, and everything else. There is no reason for the amulet to be brought back, because that special relationship is no longer there and Dean has no faith in himself or what he does. The amulet no longer has meaning to it.

    Besides that, getting rid of the outward symbols that made up Dean’s character was part of the plan to deconstruct Dean’s character (Dean’s jewelry, not replacing the coat, the rock music, and finally the Impala).

    We don’t know where or why the Impala is missing. Originally it was stashed so that the Levi couldn’t track the brothers, but since there has been no proactive tracking by either the Levi or the Winchesters of the Levi, that reason has fell flat. Also, having Dean make absolutely no mention of the Impala as he drives around in something different week after week makes the Impala unimportant as a character in the show.

    I read somewhere that the Impala was seen during filming in 7.22. I don’t know if that is true or not, but I do expect to see it again for sure in the finale.

    I found S7 not as awful as S6, but I am still disappointed in the season and very much look forward to what Jeremy Carver will do in S8.

    Comment by Sheri — April 11, 2012 @ 3:00 am

  143. I am so happy he is coming back. I could tell the show was different and not as exciting as all the others. It is a welcomed come-back!! Thanks!!

    Comment by Tammy — April 11, 2012 @ 9:06 am

  144. @ Sheri, yes I think we do agree more than not, at least on what we want for Dean.

    “Up until this last episode, I did feel Dean’s was connected to the mytharc (the Levi) and Sam’s was just Sam dealing with his latest problem. Sam has focused on the small hunts to keep his hallucinations at bay. Dean, we have been told, was focused on the Levi, although I haven’t seen anything proactive there — but that’s what we are lead to believe with the phone calls to Frank.”

    But I do disagree with this, since Sam has been with Dean the entire time and if something were to actually come of this storyline and Sam will be there to go after the Leviathans along with Dean, so I do not see this as a Dean-only plot. Besides now that Sam is all fixed up, I fully expect him to take the lead. That is how this show has rolled since PONR, so I have no reason to believe that will change now. Whether Dean actually gets to follow through for once, is anyone’s guess.

    “I in no way implied that Dean should be solely concerned about Sam. As far as I am concerned, Dean should have ran Sam over with the Impala in S6. I was rooting for it, in fact. ”

    Sorry, I misunderstood your comment as a complaint against Dean not caring enough about Sam and since you did not specify that Sam should also show some caring back for Dean, I saw your comment reflecting what many of the so-called bibros want which is the one-way street they have misnamed the “brotherly bond.”

    “I still can’t figure out why the brothers are hunting after Dean got Sam’s soul back, and I don’t think the show has given me, as a viewer, a good explanation of that. There is no joy, no hope for a better future, no light at the end of the tunnel, and that has been part of the problem for two years now. ”

    Yes I completely agree and this has been my biggest problem with the show as well. Neither boy is really fit to hunt these days, they seem not to get any satisfaction out of it, and quite frankly, they don’t seem particularly competent anymore since the guest stars save the day more often than not. So logically they should pack it in and find something else to do with their lives. The show needs to make hunting vital to Dean again at least, otherwise there is absolutely no place for him on the show and he continues to be a hanger on in the story of Sam’s fall and redemption.

    “I’ve been pretty vocal that Sam’s hellpain is a non-stgory. That story, along with the soulless one, keeps Sam right where he started the series.”

    Since this has been the focus of the show for two years, I disagree that it is not a story. However, it is a badly-told one because no growth or development has come out if it for the protagonist, Sam.

    “What I am seeing, intended or not, is that Dean does not trust Sam. What I see from Sam is that he has no idea how far gone Dean is, although this last episode, Sam got his first hint. ”

    Well I don’t think Dean should have trusted Sam this season. Sam was mentally unstable so his judgement should be questioned. In fact, he should not have been hunting, handling guns of driving so I think Dean needed to be more distrustful of Sam, not less.

    As for Sam, he seems to be conflating the signs of Bobby with Dean’s grief and/or depression. The problem is, he is wrong. We now know that Bobby is still hanging around so Dean is not off his rocker, which is where Dean’s issues will most likely end rather than him getting any real help in dealing. Then, next season, when they once again refuse to write Dean into the plot, they will rear their ugly heads as a way to make Sam look stronger than Dean. This show has some very definite patterns and as much as I hope Carver will do well by Dean for once, I cannot bank on it.

    “I stand by my feelings on GhostBobby or resurrected Bobby. If they do bring him back, I hope he isn’t YodaBobby where the brothers have to call on him for every single thing and he can kill stuff with his eyes closed. I did not like how they retro’d and elevated the relationship with Bobby to Daddy, and I didn’t like Bobby yelling at Dean about poor Sammy season after season. That said, I liked Bobby, but I don’t like audience manipulation in lieu of good storytelling. Killing Bobby to bring him back or have him linger is lazy and cheap storytelling.”

    I actually don’t disagree with you about Bobby. If they sent him off into the light at the end of the year, I would be fine with that. But I did love the Team Free Will dynamic and since I want Cas to come back permanently, I am not going to be a hypocrite and only argue to keep my favored character. I know plenty of people love Bobby so I am not going to object to him sticking around as long as we get to keep Castiel too. However, I do hope we get the Bobby of seasons 2,3 and early 4 back rather than the Sam-fluffer he turned into at the end of season 4.

    “When you get right down to it, neither Bobby, Sam, Frank or Eliot Ness have been all that helpful to Dean in their advise. Cas is the only one that had an appropriate response to Dean, telling him that he was human and validating his feelings of distrust. We’ll see where that goes.”

    On a better-written show, I would expect this to actually lead somewhere. But on this show, it may well be the writers think the audience is nodding along with this terrible advice and that Dean is weak for not being able to suck it up and stuff it down the way Sam apparently is. This show has the most bizarre and judgmental take on mental illness that I have ever seen when it comes to Dean. His PTSD was ridiculed and blown off. His alcoholism and depression are treated as nothing more than a nuisance to Sam and Bobby. It’s just strange.

    “I have not lost my interest in Sam and Dean’s journey. I’m hoping that Carver will bring that journey back to life and get the show back on track.”

    Carver did write the brotherly relationship well, so he may be able to perform a small miracle and get me caring about it again. But I don’t know, Sam has been severely damaged in my eyes over the past 2.5 years so Carver has his work cut out for him. I think he also writes the Dean/Cas relationship well so my biggest hope is that he bring Cas back as a recurring character next year so that I at least have that to enjoy.

    @SL Nicely put and I completely agree with your post.

    Comment by Nico — April 11, 2012 @ 9:21 am

  145. @ Nico: “Sam has been severely damaged in my eyes over the past 2.5 years so Carver has his work cut out for him. I think he also writes the Dean/Cas relationship well..”

    I am openly not a bi-bro fan. I think I was the first one on the board to call the ‘brotherly bond’ the biggest myth this show has going for it, and that was back in S4.

    Where Sam is concerned, both EK and SG seems to have forgotten that the in a hero’s journey, the hero is supposed to learn something — to be transformed by his experience. That has never happened in Sam’s case. By canon (Luci said it), Sam is now recognized as the only one to have saved the world. That, I think, was supposed to be his redemption arc, but coming back soulless, suffering hellpain, remaining self-centered (the Amy debacle) and stomping off all have negated that anything redemption they attempted. In any case, it never worked for me, because Sam never apologized to Dean or recognized any of his efforts.

    I would like to like Sam again, but until he shows some gratitude for the person Dean is and what he has done for him (selling his soul, trying to stop him from making a major mistake, killing himself to get his soul back, and now finding a fix to his mental illness), I have no interest.

    Unfortunately, I think both EK and SG’s Sam infatuation took Sam too far off the rails for me. There is a slim line in taking a character dark and still having him likeable. If SG remained as showrunner, I have no doubt that I would never like Sam again. With Carver, there is a slight chance I can again become invested in the character, but it will take major character rehabilitation. This viewer has a long memory.

    As for Dean’s deconstruction, it would be easy to say ‘I’m tired of Dean’s moping,’ but I find it fascinating to watch JA being so protective of Dean’s character that he manages to keep him recognizable and likeable, despite all the deliberate attempts to downgrade him and push him aside. It’s a tribute to JA’s acting, IMO.

    “now that Sam is all fixed up, I fully expect him to take the lead.”

    I do not think SG has it in her to NOT have Sam save the day in some way, and especially this season when Sam has really had nothing to do except a few random kills. I think she’s saving him back for some big purpose, too.

    We have only had the most recent episode since Sam was healed of his God-awful hellpain story, and already we see him taking quite an unsubtle notice of what he believes is Dean’s ‘grief,’ craziness,’ (whatever name people want to call it). The audience has already been told that Dean isn’t crazy, so Sam and Dean are the only ones who aren’t clued in to the fact that Dean’s instincts are right on. Dean seems to have agreed with Sam; that it is only grief, but Dean is a good liar, so we don’t know if he really did agree or not.

    Sam is once again wrong, but Sam’s noticing will lead to something. Given the show’s history, I wouldn’t expect that to be to trust in Dean. I will be one pissed off lady if after another whole season of teasing that Dean has some role to play, it turns out that it was once again all a big tease.

    Carver does write both Sam and Dean well, and has hit the mark on the brothers’ relationship. My hope for Cas and Dean/Cas is that it goes back to the S4 feel, in that I would like to see Dean still harboring distrust for Cas and Cas having to work at re-establishing the relationship. I don’t want Dean as the straight man for Cas jokes and I don’t want Cas as a Winchester or a special Winchester angel.

    Regarding Bobby. If Bobby hangs around as a ghost, it goes against all canon this show has ever produced. Bobby is a human and all humans who stick around as ghosts get bitter and evil. I’ll never buy into a benevolent GhostBobby.

    If he is resurrected, then I do not want to see the Winchesters running to him with every little thing. I actually got sick of Bobby when he became the whiner pest in the wheelchair. Then they took him to Sam’s cheerleader, while he talked down to Dean, and then to Yoda Jedi Bobby, which was annoying as hell, too. At this point, I am quite okay with Dean being the leader and Bobby being gone.

    (BTW, it’s nice seeing Bobby in Justified. I like Jim Beaver.)

    Comment by Sheri — April 11, 2012 @ 12:15 pm

  146. Sheri @142, Sheri I have a slightly different take on the amulet business.

    Bobby had given Sam the amulet to give to his ‘FATHER’. Throughout the episode Dean keeps reassuring Sam they’ll have a good Christmas and that dad will come home, then tells him the truth about the journal when he’s confronted. But dad doesn’t come home and is not the hero in Sam’s eyes that Dean claims. In the end Dean tried to lie to Sam about their dad and steals presents for him so Sam will have that good Christmas he’d been promised. When Sam gave him the amulet he was acknowledging all Dean had done for him, that Dean as his primary caregiver, the person in his life who tried to provide for his needs and make him happy. His ‘FATHER’. For Dean it was acknowledgement of love and trust and that his efforts as a surrogate parent were recognized and appreciated.

    When in heaven Dean discovered that Sam’s heaven not only excluded him but were the worst moments of his life. When Dean asked about Six Flags Sam emphasizes it was great because he was alone. When Dean confronted Sam with how he had been terrified and the consequences he had suffered as a result of Sams running away Sam’s only response was “I never thought about it that way.” Sam again defends how great his memory is of the night he left for Stanford and for the same reasons. He was getting away from Dad and Dean.

    Dean realizes that if Sam never thought about the pain he caused Dean and was happiest when away from him than the ‘bond’ he thought the amulet represented was rather one sided.

    Throwing the amulet away was not about loosing hope of defeating Lucifer or loosing faith in himself. He no longer believed in Sam’s love and faith in him. It was about loosing faith in Sam. He mentioned his lack of faith more than once after that.

    Comment by Haley 56 — April 11, 2012 @ 4:02 pm

  147. @ Haley 56: I agree that the amulet could be taken to mean as you say.

    I take it the way I mentioned because we knew from the Pilot what Dean thought about Sam…that John had put Sam in Dean’s arms at age 4 and that Dean never gave him back and never gave up his role as big brother (i.e., “I know I can [find Dad alone], but I don’t want too.”) Therefore, when Sam gave Dean the amulet, I took that to mean that the brotherhood was sealed; that that was the moment Sam put his faith and trust in Dean, not John, as his caregiver, father, mom, protector, and all.

    Yes, Dean realized in DSotM that Sam did not see him as Dean saw Sam (them against the world after their father died). But more than that, Cas gave the amulet back to Dean because he realized that his Father was not going to help. It was at that point that Cas lost faith in God and transferred his trust and faith to Dean (i.e., the reason he was so mad when Dean thought about giving up in PoNR). Dean, conversely, had been searching for God, because that was his last chance at stopping the Apocalpyse and keeping himself and Sam from being vessels. With that last chance gone, and realizing that Sam did not share his feelings, Dean lost all hope, along with faith in himself (I think Joshua mentioned that, too).

    I believe Sam took tossing the amulet as a sign of Dean giving up, more than a sign of a break in the mythical ‘brother bond.’

    Then, in the very next episode, we have Dean attempting to contact Michael, because he thought he could save at least half of the planet in doing so.

    Both views are valid. I hold mine because I think the brother bond is a myth, as seen by Sam leaving Dean for Stanford for 4 years w/o contact, Sam choosing a demon over his brother (which started in S3 as his brother was headed to Hell), and then the rest of what we have seen over the years.

    P.S. I realize the show says 2 years, but EK admitted that was a writers mistake, since you can’t get a bachelor’s degree in 2 years, and Sam was on the verge of receiving his degree and being accepted to law school when Jess was killed.

    Comment by Sheri — April 11, 2012 @ 5:49 pm

  148. Sheri, I agree with you a lot on what you said about the amulet. But I don’t understand. How is Sam and Dean bond as brothers mythical? Are you saying that they don’t care about each other and they don’t really love each other the same? Or are you saying that the writers turned it as this big myth?

    You stated that “Sam leaving Dean for four years without contact, Sam choosing a demon over his brothers (which started in S3 as his brother was headed to Hell), and then rest of what we have seen over the years” makes the bond mythical. But we don’t know about Stanford. We know that Sam was gone for four years, but Sam and Dean didn’t talk for two years. (In John Winchester’s Journal, it suggests that Dean was the one to cut off the communication, but there hasn’t been anything in the show, so who knows? It could have been Sam or both of them?) Sam was searching for ways to save Dean in season three. He was using Ruby, but she was barely in the season and Sam and Dean were trying harder to get Dean out of his deal. The fourth season is when the split happened. Dean was pulled in one direction by the angels and Sam was pulled in another direction by Ruby. In the end, Sam made a choice, but he came back. As for the other stuff, Amy? (First of a crap storyline, for a filler. That kind of says everything I need to say about that. Neither brother comes out of the storyline looking good. Dean looks like a hypocrite, bully, liar, and jerk. Sam looks petty, moody, liar, and jerk. Who ever thought this was a good idea is an idiot, because it made both Sam and Dean look like piss-poor brothers, hunters, and human beings. It’s the seventh season, we don’t need to debate the ethics of killing a killer monster and we sure as hell don’t need Sam and Dean lying to each other about it.) Both of the brothers are screwed up this season. I don’t understand how that makes their bond any less when they are so messed up right now.

    But I think the brothers have proven their relationship more than it has been torn down. Right now, the show in my opinion is suffering more from extremely bad writing and not knowing what to do with the brothers more than anything else. But I don’t think what is happening right now in the show discoloring what the brothers had in earlier seasons or makes them any less as brothers.

    Perhaps, I am just disagreeing with you more than I am misunderstanding you. While I do agree with you that I don’t think Sam saw him and Dean as it was them again the world, I don’t think it was because Sam loved Dean any less. I think it had more to do with Sam not being against the world. Sam isn’t the type of guy who thinks the world sucks, but fight anyway. That was Dean. I think Dean thought Sam would be right there with him in thinking the world was crap, but Sam never believed that.

    I’m not a fan of DSToM. It’s a good episode, but I don’t like it. I’m in the camp that believes that Zach set the whole thing up. The fireworks were probably a good memory for Dean which set him up to believe that all the other memories would be just as significant. But Sam’s Thanksgiving memory didn’t look happy. Sam looked uncomfortable. Then there is Dean’s second memory. Mary and John fighting. Why would that be a happy memory? Why would that be in Dean’s Heaven? Why not a memory of the three of them together or something? That’s when I stopped believing that these memories were random or that they showed the real Heaven for the brothers. I think that the angels could control the memories played, just not pinpoint where the brothers were. The Winchesters didn’t even consider that the angels might be screwing with them when the memories started on taking a darker tone. I hate it when they write the Winchesters a certain way to make the story work instead of working the story to fit the Winchesters.

    (Personally, I don’t like either brother in the episode. The writers had to throw Sam under the bus and make him look like a total jerk to make the episode work towards breaking Dean. And Dean had to be too wrapped up in his own pain to make it work too. Add that to another slight towards John and Mary right after they made John and Mary look so in love in “The Song Remains the Same.” And Roy and Walt getting away, it’s not surprising for me to dislike the episode.)

    Anyway, I think you are right about Dean losing faith in everything including Sam. But I don’t think you’re right about the mythical brotherly bond. And this is just my opinion, so don’t be upset by it or think I’m causing trouble, but I think it is there, the writers just to don’t play to its strengths. They keep Sam and Dean in the same patterns. Dean has to stay depressed and Sam has to stay wrong.

    Sam either has be wrong because he is screwed up physically or he just has to be wrong. He has to be wrong about Amy and Bobby instead of showing that the character can get something right they have to keep him in this little box. They don’t show his point of view, they just have him all of sudden do this or that. But nothing ever comes of it. The writers don’t give him scenes to show his emotions like with Robo-Sam. They wasted the finale last season, but having Sam play collect them all instead of having Sam learn something or discover anything.

    And Dean? Dean has to be depressed. People have to be mean to him. Dean has to shut everyone out. He can talk to random girls at bars about his problems with Sam, but an actual conversation with Sam, Dean just snaps “I’m fine, shut-up, Sam.” (I’m so sick of that! I never want to hear the words: Dick, Boo-hoo, shut up, Sam, or another rape joke on this show again!) Why can’t Dean have a real conversation with his brother? Sam shows concern for Dean, but the show shuts it down so quickly it will make my head spin. Anytime, Sam helps Dean take a step, they undo it in the next episode. And what makes it worst, is they overplay the Sam is wrong card with the Dean is right card. Dean is right about Sam, Amy, those crappy monsters in 7×11, Emma, Castiel, Meg, and now, ghost Bobby (and I could go back in the series, not the point), but it’s not allowed to go anywhere. Because Dean has to stay depressed. So, he get to be obnoxiously right to the point he is on the border self-rightness status, but he has to be saved at the last second? Or drink about being right? Ugh! I wouldn’t have a problem with the depression storyline if it moved somewhere, but it doesn’t. !

    You can’t have the character be beyond screwed up and still be right the majority of the time. And you can’t have a character be beyond screwed up and let him still save the day. Because Dean still being right doesn’t make sense if he cannot do anything himself and Sam still being able to save the day doesn’t make sense if he cannot take care of himself.

    For me, it’s not surprising that there is such a divide between the Sam and Dean fans. Because when it comes to having a favorite, you are only going to care about the other character if they make an impact on your favorite character. And nothing is sticking to the brothers. Neither one of them is moving. Every time, there is an attempt to move a brother along, it’s gone by the next episode. It doesn’t stop them from being brothers, but it doesn’t allow them to be brothers either.

    I’m not bi-bro either, but I don’t think it’s a myth. I think the writers are butts. They saw that the fandom loves the brothers together and decided that fans would keep tuning in to see the brothers get back together. It’s like the cliche, no one wants to watch them get together until the very last episode crap writers do. But in my opinion, shows have proven this wrong. Look at “One Tree Hill,” they had a couple get together in the first season and then they did the add drama crap in the second, third, and fifth seasons, but for the last four seasons they were together and most fans still loved it. It didn’t make the story any less interesting watching the characters work together in fact it was the only good thing about the later seasons. I thought Supernatural had learned this in the second half of the sixth season, but apparently that was a fluke.

    And now, they’re in a hole and they don’t know their way out. They refuse to give Dean something else to do and they refuse to give Sam a chance to be human. Why? I think that they put Sam and Dean in such stale states this seasons and tried adding drama when they had plenty that they cause the brothers to seem further apart than ever. Even in the fourth and fifth seasons, they didn’t seem this distance. But I think that’s because they were at least moving in a direction those seasons. This season there is no grand-arch, there are no real supporting characters, and Sam and Dean are plots not characters. You can’t make a relationship out of plots.

    I think Jeremy Carver has his work cut out for him. But I’m not sure if he can do it all. I hope he can. But I haven’t like Dean since the fifth season and these last two season haven’t helped. I’ll cut him all sorts of breaks and normally, I don’t say anything about him, so I have no idea how I sound about him now. I can understand depression and I have tons of sympathy for the people I work with who suffer from depression, but I don’t have sympathy for people who don’t try to make their lives better and they turned Dean into that. They turned both brothers into that, but it’s clear cut in Dean. He just pushes everyone away and waits for the other shoe to drop. I could understand that in the fourth season. It drives me nuts, because I watch older episodes and I like Dean, but now? It’s not that I want him off the show or want him like how he used to be, but at least, can he seem like he likes Sam? Or wants to save a life? Give him something or anything to do! As long as Jeremy Carver doesn’t carry on the Dean is depressed or Dean using Castiel to fix every little thing, then I’ll be fine. But I’m not sure I’ll ever look at Dean the same, but it would be watch the Dean scenes and not wonder if Dean is going to shoot himself yet.

    But I’m more focused on what is going to happen with Sam. I want a good human storyline for Sam. Something that doesn’t have monster or demons. Nothing supernatural. No girls dying jokes or evil crap. Something human and shows why Sam still fights. I think Jeremy Carver did a good job of showing Sam’s human side, I just hopes he plays to that strength. I really want for Sam’s point of view to be explored and shown. Maybe have Sam deal with a Dean mystery or something. I want to see Sam scenes about Sam and not wonder how the guy got from point mental to point hunter to point Zen to point concerned guy to point mental again to point it’s okay for a guy who just got out of the hospital to drink? Consistent characterization, not plot point.

    Comment by CuriousGeorgia — April 11, 2012 @ 9:14 pm

  149. @ CuriousGeorgia: I would have to write a thesis to address your full post, so let me just say that I understand your frustration and your viewpoints and I’ll address some of the points your brought out.

    “I don’t understand. How is Sam and Dean bond as brothers mythical? Are you saying that they don’t care about each other and they don’t really love each other the same? Or are you saying that the writers turned it as this big myth?”

    I do believe that the brothers love each other, but I also believe the writers turned the bond into a big myth (a myth that goes back to the beginning of the show). I don’t know anything about John’s journal, but that is not show canon. That’s something written to make bucks from merchandizing. Show canon comes from what is shown, and there has been no explanation as to whether Sam didn’t want to contact Dean or Dean didn’t contact Sam. What we do know is that Sam wasn’t interested in seeing Dean when he showed up at his house in the pilot. He decidedly moved to Jessica’s side and had no interest in what Dean had to say, thus indicating that he had chosen his normal life over Dean.

    I loved it when I believed Sam and Dean were “psychotically, irrationally, erotically co-dependent.” Fallen Idols, when the writers dropped the Sam chose Ruby because Dean wouldn’t let him grow up bomb, made me realize that I had been dubbed.

    Thinking back from that episode, we know that Sam was protected from the family business when he was small (by both John and Dean). He was pampered. He was told he was the smart one. We know from a long history in the show that Sam was self-righteous. We know his view of Dean was that he was just John’s little guard dog and nothing more.

    I actually loved DSotM. It doesn’t matter if one believes the memories were manipulated by Zachariah or if they were real memories. What matters is the brother’s dialogue to each other, and Sam definitely said he did not view family the same way Dean did. Sam took off on Dean at 14 years old without a thought that Dean would be worried sick about him. That is not having the same view of family — that is narcissistic. That is saying to Dean, “I don’t give a rat’s ass what you’ll think, feel, or get in trouble for, I am going to do this because I want to…oh, and I had a great time while I was gone.” That is not the language of love. That is indifference, which is worst than hate in my mind.

    Yes, Sam was searching for ways to save Dean in S3, and he failed. He should have learned flat out for himself that Ruby lied about helping him with Dean, but he didn’t. He should have really learned something in Mystery Spot — he was w/o Dean for six months — but he didn’t. I’ll not go into a whole speil, but will quickly summarize by saying that both EK and SG tried to make Sam the hero, tried to make Sam the special snowflake, tried to make Sam everything awesome, and in doing so, they have ruined the character because there has been no growth in Sam at all. A writer’s problem, definitely, but in ruining Sam’s character, they also showed the undying bond between the brothers was a myth.

    As for Dean and his issues, let me say this. When you have two leads and don’t want one of them to have a story, all you get is retreads of the same story for the character you have to use, but don’t want to. I believe SG purposely set out to ruin Dean’s character and his popularity so that she could build Sam up, and that is why we get retreaded stories for Dean. But there are several things to be said for Dean’s character, and I think a lot of it has to do with JA protecting his character. I think he fights hard to do that; whereas, Jared is happy to play different versions of Sam.

    First, Dean has been shown over the years to be the strongest person on the show, despite all attempts to make him otherwise (being a houseboy, being an alcoholic, using drugs, etc).

    Second, Dean follows his own very strong moral code. He doesn’t really care what other people think about him, and that includes Sam, Bobby, and Cas.

    Third, Dean always learns from his mistakes and he doesn’t repeat them. He may make new mistakes, but he’s learned from the old ones. His advise to Sam has always been solid.

    I can understand wanting a story for Sam where he isn’t screwed up. I think everyone is pretty fed up with the ‘what’s wrong with Sam’ stories after seven years. But the problem with wanting something different for Sam is the question of which Sam do you want?

    As far as consistent characterization, my feelings are that the big role reversal SG did to make Sam into everything awesome was a major mistake. These actors were hired because Jared could play the boy next door beautifully and Jensen can play the shady brother beautifully. When Jared does the snarky smart-ass, he comes off cold and snotty. When Jensen does the snarky smart-ass, he comes off funny and likeable. The show should have stuck with the winning combo they started with.

    My fear for this season, and the one story that they haven’t done for Dean that Sam has had is the angel possession one. I’m afraid that is where this season is headed and I can’t say I will be excited about it.

    I, too, think Carver has his work cut out for him. I actually wonder why he even wanted the job after the mess that has been made of the show in the last three years.

    Comment by Sheri — April 12, 2012 @ 6:22 am

  150. I also think that the brother bond is just a myth that the writers have tried to perpetuate mostly through interviews and such, since Fallen Idols aired. The actual writing does not reinforce the bond at all, IMO-and NOT because Dean is always just so MEEN! to poor, widdle Sammykins. Sheesh. Oh, and for the record, I haven’t liked Sam since S3 when he seemed to me to be more worried about what would happen to him(Sam) upon learning of Dean’s deal and Dean’s subsequent and inevitable trip to hell, than what would be happening to Dean because of it. And the writing for Sam has very rarely strayed far from this depiction of him since then, again IMO. Maybe if Gamble would have shown us the role reversal that would have made more sense after S5, this could have been remedied-by having Sam strictly and only worry over Dean while they hunted together because something or someone in the supernatural world had nefarious plans for Dean and because of something special and unique about only Dean, many could have felt that the bond was real again; but instead she went with her soap-opera plot that still had Sam at the center of the myth-arc, with Dean in the same old primary role that they just refuse to let him out-Sam’s caretaker-and this, even as they continue to anvil us over the head with how wrong he’s always been to do that. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t is how they’ve written Dean since S4 and that’s totally been reflected in the comments on most of the boards, IMO. And now in S7 we’re supposed to believe that SuperSam has such incredible inner strength that he would be so little affected by the most terrible hell ever visited upon a human being(and that, by all rights and according to everyone and their mother should have left him a drooling mess and totally incapable of hunting), that NOW, he can be all concerned about Dean-and not because Dean is in mortal danger from a supernatural source, but because Dean is a depressed alcoholic. Sheesh again. What a soap opera/Marty Stu Sam Show Gamble has turned this show into since, yes, late S5, IMO-she has hand and say in that 3 episode mess, too, IMO. I’m so glad she’s gone. At least there’s some hope with Carver that we’ll get better writing for ALL of the characters if his previous writing and showrunning is any indication, and since he doesn’t seem to have the same showrunner predilections that Gamble(and Kripke also, albeit to a lesser degree) had. There’s at least(and finally) some hope for a better S8 now, because of this change-over, IMO.

    Comment by Sarah2 — April 12, 2012 @ 7:23 am

  151. @ Sarah2 #150: ” I haven’t liked Sam since S3 when he seemed to me to be more worried about what would happen to him(Sam) upon learning of Dean’s deal and Dean’s subsequent and inevitable trip to hell…”

    This is true, but after Dean came back, it wasn’t just Sam that didn’t give a damn. Bobby and his ‘suck it up, Princess’, his whining about being in a wheelchair, and his Sam cheerleading were a slap in the face Dean fans and to Dean’s character. And then we had Cas threatening to send him back to Hell if he didn’t do the angel bidding (although I liked Dean and Cas learning to be friends). And now we have a show filled with every single family and psuedo-family member having screwed Dean over.

    It’s hard to swallow that Sam suffered the worst Hell ever known to mankind, yet was able to put that heroically aside to save a girl in a mental hospital, even though he could not unwrap a candy bar at the time. I don’t care what you say…Hell is Hell. One’s experience is not worst than another’s experience, yet the show tells us that John did not break, Sam managed to be together enough to hunt, play with guns, and drive cars, while Dean broke in 30 years and came back with a little drinking problem. Then he got so depressed, he had to go live in the suburbs, still missed Sam, so had to drink some more and do a little drugs, became ‘rusty’, and now can barely put one foot in front of the other because his best friend screwed him around.

    Absolutely incredible what these well-paid writers have done to this show that only has two leads.

    Comment by Sheri — April 12, 2012 @ 9:00 am

  152. “Absolutely incredible what these well-paid writers have done to this show that only has two leads.”

    Indeed. Which is why I always roll my eyes whenever anyone claims this show celebrates humanity and that Dean can never be allowed into the supernatural plots because he represents that humanity or some or some such nonsense.

    His strength and has resiliency is never celebrated on the show. Not a single character has ever given him credit for continuing to fight against such uneven odds. Heck, no one has even told him he was right about pretty much everything even though they continue to have no faith in him at all.

    So much for the show’s humanist point of view.

    Comment by Nico — April 12, 2012 @ 9:13 am

  153. @ Nico: Exactly. Humanity was left in the dirt. Humanity messes with the natural order of things. Humanity is corrupt. Humanity has to be healed by a supernatural.

    And now with the spoilers coming out for the last five episodes, I’m afraid that the one character representing humanity may be vesseled up to defeat the Levi, meaning humanity cannot achieve anything w/o supernatural help.

    We’re on the road to seeing prophets and archangels again, and Jake Abel is in Vancouver possibly to film another show and cram in a little Supernatural while he’s there. Looks like the angel storyline was not put to bed after all and Dean was wrong for not agreeing to be Michael’s vessel. I couldn’t be more disgusted right now.

    Comment by Sheri — April 12, 2012 @ 11:17 am

  154. Sheri, While I think you are harsh on Sam, I don’t think anyone can say that either brother was pampered by John. John didn’t show either brother affection. He used Dean and kept Sam in a fish bowl. I don’t think Sam is self-righteous. I think Sam knows is more sure of himself for which in contrast to Dean’s self-doubt and his constant everything is my fault attitude, would make Spongebob Square pants look self-righteous in my opinion. But John did a number on both his sons. Sam told Dean in “Bugs” that nothing he ever did was good enough for John, that doesn’t seem like Sam is the pampered or told he was the smart one. I think Dean was the only one who provided Sam any sense of self and it wasn’t until the teacher in “After School Special” would ask what Sam wanted in his life that Sam realized he could have something else. John cut Sam off at the knees and didn’t teach the kid what he NEEDED to know. He didn’t tell Sam the truth and it ruined his relationship with him and it spilled out everywhere else. John at least told Dean he was proud of him and died for him. He couldn’t even find it in himself to trust Sam to tell him the truth about Sam himself. That’s not pampered. That screwing up both your sons beyond belief. So, no I don’t agree at all that Sam was pampered and Dean was just the attack dog. They weren’t really anything to John except something that slowed him down.

    Sam doesn’t view family the same way, but that doesn’t mean that he doesn’t mean he is narcissistic or doesn’t love Dean any less. We don’t know when Sam took off or why. We have no context for the scene, so it could have been like in “Scarecrow” or it could have been Sam just sick of the life. We simply don’t know. But we do know, he was a child and children don’t think through their actions the same way adults do. People can’t hold them to the same standards. I think Dean should have called someone for help when he was looking for Sam, but that doesn’t mean it’s Dean’s fault and it doesn’t mean Dean is irresponsible. To me, that’s saying that Sam was kid and so was Dean and they shouldn’t have been let on their own.

    Yes, Dean views family in a more positive light, but he had the mother and father and the brother. Sam had a mother who sold him to a demon and a father who dying wish was for Sam to be killed by his own brother. As for Dean, Sam constantly places Dean outside the realm of family. Sam views Dean as a brother, father, friend and partner. He sees Dean as something better than twisted messed-up family. Again, Dean’s lack of self-worth and his inability to change has once again made other characters look self-involved and mean. Like Elliot Ness, he doesn’t say anything really that far out of line, but because he said it to Dean and Dean’s depression, it looks like he kicked a dog onscreen. Heck, even, the Campbells couldn’t be given a fair chance, because in contrast to Dean, they didn’t even appear house-broken in their first episode.

    And holding it against Sam that he didn’t learn something in Mystery Spot? Huh? He was searching for the Trickster the whole time, he was trying to get back to his world. That doesn’t make any sense to me. The whole third season argument doesn’t make sense to me. Sam was worried about both. He didn’t want to lose his brother. How is Dean not being able to live in a world without Sam any different? He worried about what would happen to him. For me, that’s part of the need the brothers have for each other. It’s works both ways.

    I’m not going to go into the special snowflake argument. I don’t agree with that in the least and in my experience the only times those arguments are used are to just bash the character and write him off. I don’t think that’s what you are trying to do, but that’s just what I experience. I don’t think the writers have done anything right by either brother since the fifth season, but I don’t think for a second that they tried to make Sam the hero. They wanted to make Sam the bad guy or the sort of the bad guy when it was convenient, but instead of just going Lex Luthor, they flirted with it and now, the character is stuck in the weird spot where no one knows what the hell is going on with him.

    I don’t think Sera Gamble purposely set out to destroy or ruin Dean’s character. Partly, because I don’t think she ever thought through anything or thought anything out and taking down a character, you have to plan. She couldn’t plan anything to save her life. You add that to the fact she hired bad writers and didn’t help them out? She can write good episodes. She can write Sam and Dean together. So, why didn’t she help others to do that?

    She was too far in over her head. And to torn down everything. It is just a mess. It’s not anyone show. For me, that’s part of the problem.

    I don’t think Jensen or Jared go up against the producers and fight for their characters like some actors do, but they seem so grateful and down to earth, that I don’t think they would demand anything from people who pay them so much. I do think Jensen has protected his character to a certain extend, more this season than last. While Jared, I think Jared is the type of actor who thinks he should only act. Because both of them have said they like it when the brothers are together and they were excited for the first two scripts of the season and then Amy happened and they didn’t seem that excited anymore for the show. Jared focused on his family and Jensen talked about how they are just doing the show for the fans. (Honestly, they’re talking about who they want back on the show and pitching stories instead of talking about what is happening. Something is wrong.)

    But I don’t think either one of them fights really hard, because then things would be different. It wouldn’t be convention talk. Like the scene in 7×06, it had to be third time before Jensen and Jared would rewrite the scene. I think both of them are very grateful for what they have and that’s why it has only been at the breaking point for anything to be said. We’ll probably find out more about what happened to Sera, because someone will slip up at a convention. But I think there was more going on behind the scenes than just not wanting another contract. Jared seemed to try to always say something nice about Sera just because they hadn’t talked about her, but Jensen seems to avoid talking about her. He talked about Robert Singer. So, I don’t think they were happy, but I don’t think they were fighting with her.

    Sera didn’t stick with anything. And I don’t think has to do with the acting. I don’t think Jensen can play dark and evil as well as some of the actors we have had in the show. But he can do smart-ass good guy. I think Jared does the understandable good guy, but I do think he can do snarky bad guy. Look at “Born Under a Bad Sign.” He can do it. But they have to allow him to have fun with it. Jensen doesn’t have to have fun with. He can do dark snarky. Jared and Jensen can add layers and subtly, but I think Jared does much better when the character isn’t trying to be both the good guy and the bad guy. Jensen can do the bad good guy, but for me, he doesn’t pull of the villain.

    The actors are very capable and good actors. But I agree, they should have stuck with their winning combo and grown the characters from that. I hate how both of the Wincesters are supposed to be these strong, been through everything, lost everything, and still fight. Why? There is no point. The only thing left to do is make them human again.

    I don’t put a lot of stock into just one episode. “Fallen Idols” was a bandaid for a much bigger problem and now the show is hemorrhaging because it didn’t take care of its characters and take them head on. I don’t think the show needs to place either one of them at the center of the myth-arc. They need to give the brothers a voice and not just rely on how strong they are. We’re supposed to believe that both brothers are still standing?

    I’m sorry, but both Hell storyline were incredibly dumb. Dean spends forty years in Hell and not only does he come back functioning. He still remembers phone numbers, hot-wiring cars, and is hunting the same day? And Sam? What was that? At least on Buffy, they let the characters show some symptoms at first before they were back on the horse. It’s not like either Winchester is doing incredibly well, but it’s not like either of them are showing a tons of side-effects either. Dean has alway drank and it’s not like it slows him down or the drugs meant anything.

    I don’t think the show even knows what human mean anymore. Neither Winchester is an believable human being. I don’t think the show has turn either brother in a Marty Stu, Gary Stu, or whatever the hell it is, because for me, they’re not characters enough anymore to be anything special. They’re whatever the plots are. They keep fighting for no reason, no purpose, and they’re able to fight when all logic says otherwise. I’m suppose to believe that Dean can drink all that he does, has no consequences, and still is good to drive, shoot, and work all while he is miserable and doesn’t know why he’s there. And I’m supposed to believe that Sam is half way okay and just connect the dots myself, because they hate giving explanation. I don’t need either of them to be the ultimate or special. But quit having “the standing still and using they’re so strong, they’re cracking and breaking, but they’re still going on” storyline. I’m not interested in seeing how much you can dump on the characters, because no matter how much you dump, they’ll still going to keep going, so what’s the point?

    I don’t like what Sera Gamble did to the show. However, I’m sorry, but saying Sera Gamble turned this show into the Sam show is giving Sera Gamble too much credit.

    P.S. I believe Jake Abel is filming in Vancouver for Percy Jackson, not Supernatural. They’re filming the season finale right now and if we haven’t heard about Adam by now, then I don’t think we’re going to.

    Comment by CuriousGeorgia — April 12, 2012 @ 12:17 pm

  155. Nico, Sheri and Sheri2, I agree with most of what you say particularly regarding the mistreatment of Dean in this show.

    I noticed from the very beginning Sam was more concerned about himself that anything else. He was positively hostile about hunting as they searched for John. If he’d had his way Haley and his brothers would have been eaten by the windego, the boy in the lake would have finished of the sheriff’s family and to this day the doctor in the asylum would be driving people crazy with anger. Yet when confronted with the victims he showed great compassion and understanding for them even chiding Dean for his lack of tack and understanding.

    This contradiction in Sam’s personality always annoyed me. I kept waiting for Sam to grow up and at times he seemed to, particularly in “Devil’s Trap” when he tells his father there are somethings more important than revenge.

    Unfortunately in season 3 he backslides into a teen like ‘it’s all about me attitude’, Sneaking off was juvenile and foolish. In “In all Hell Breaks Loose part 1″ Sam shows a great deal of growth unfortunately he lost all respect from me when he is angry with Dean for selling his soul “not because he’s worried about Dean suffering eternal torment” but accuses him of being selfish and is upset about how he’s supposed to carry on alone. “Yes Sam damning yourself to hell is a less cruel fate than being alone.”

    When Sam vowed to save Dean again my hope rose but it didn’t last long. It’s in this season that be begins keeping secretes but not because he didn’t know what to think or do about the secrete his father told him but rather….., well I don’t know why. The lesson he learns about how important Dean is to him in “Mystery Spot” seems lost in the final moments of Dean’s life. When Dean refuses to let Sam turn to Ruby to save him Sam’s response is “What an I supposed to do now?” and actually lets Dean apologize for hurting him by going to hell.

    Samfans will argue that Sam was sacrificing himself to save the world, however when the siren in “Sex and Violence” tells Sam and Dean to speak their minds Sam says he’s smarter and stronger than Dean, a better hunter, that Dean doesn’t have the guts to hunt Lilith and that Dean is broken. True, he never would have said those things if the siren hadn’t made him, however like the doctor in “Asylum” (When Sam told Dean he was pathetic) he was pushed to express himself but not told what to say or what to think. There was a lot of ego in that and like much of the viewing audience he wasn’t prepared to give Dean time to heal, or credit for hitting the ground running (Hunting) within days of rising. Boohoo was his attitude about Dean’s pain. There isn’t a lot to praise in this season. I came into season 4 angry with Sam not hating, but angry, and though I didn’t grow to hate him in season 4 my anger grew especially when he betrayed and almost killed Dean.

    By season 5 my anger began to shift from the character to the writers. It began in S4 with Bobby’s speech. When Dean tells him about what happened between him and Sam his reaction is to attack Dean calling him a princess. It’s as if Dean isn’t allowed to be hurt not even by his brothers betrayal or almost murdering him. He’s supposed to just shrug it off as if it was Sam’s God given right to abuse him and that he should reach out his hand to Sam so Sam can cut it off.

    Sam’s contrite heart and acknowledgement of his mistakes brought Sam up in my esteem until he had the audacity to put blame on Dean for choosing Ruby. However I began to realize that though Sam was doing these things neither Dean nor anyone else was contradicting him. Any time Dean so much as attempted to call Sam on anything, show a lack of trust or make any demands on him he was slammed by another character on the show and fans.

    It would seem to be a general attitude that Sam is always forgiven because his intentions were good regardless of his underlying feelings or how many die horribly as a result, and Dean regardless of how badly used he is, is being mean and unreasonable if he is in any way hurt by Sam. Even Castiel is allowed to take it out on Dean beating him and blaming him for all the choices the Angel made and putting it wholly on Dean that they failed to stop Sam. Though it was Sam that screwed up in season 4 Dean took an awful lot of hits from everyone including Bobby.

    This isn’t just Sam it’s everyone in the damned show and that’s the responsibility of the writers. Dean seems to be the whipping boy of choice and to compound matters in season 6 and 7 there seems to be a concerted effort to take anything and everything away from him. Hunting is no longer a noble quest he takes pride in, he is no longer good at his job, he takes pleasure in nothing any more and though Sam keeps demanding to know what’s wrong with him when he does admit his feelings to anyone he is ridiculed and belittled and offered no council from anyone. He’s questioning his vocation and his worth and seems to be feeling he can’t win for loosing and that is a fact. No matter what he does someone will hold it against him and at no time are his feelings validated. Fans are accusing him of being a whiner, and wallowing in self pity. Why shouldn’t he be depressed when the show runner, the writers and a lot of fans (Obviously not all, Nico, Sheri, Orly to name a few) are determined to shove him as far down the ladder as they can, deprive him of anything that gives him pleasure and then expect him to smile about it and continue his mission to look after his brother and think only of his brother’s happiness.

    It’s not Sam the character it’s so much more.

    Comment by Haley 56 — April 12, 2012 @ 1:04 pm

  156. “And now with the spoilers coming out for the last five episodes, I’m afraid that the one character representing humanity may be vesseled up to defeat the Levi, meaning humanity cannot achieve anything w/o supernatural help.

    We’re on the road to seeing prophets and archangels again, and Jake Abel is in Vancouver possibly to film another show and cram in a little Supernatural while he’s there. Looks like the angel storyline was not put to bed after all and Dean was wrong for not agreeing to be Michael’s vessel. I couldn’t be more disgusted right now.”

    Since I never bought the line about celebrating humanity anyway, this doesn’t bother me in the slightest. It just means the show is finally being honest and instead of trying to sell Dean fans a bill of goods about him being co-lead character for 7 freakin’ years. At this point, anything that makes Dean as “special” as the other characters is just fine by me.

    Besides, Jensen would be awesome as Michael and I watch the show for him these days rather than the story and I always liked the angel storyline, just not the trumped up ending that shut Dean out altogether. JMHO of course.

    Comment by Nico — April 12, 2012 @ 1:42 pm

  157. “I don’t think Jensen can play dark and evil as well as some of the actors we have had in the show.”

    @CuriousGeorgina I could not disagree more. Jensen’s shapeshifter in Skin is still one of my favorite performances of the entire series.

    But you don’t seem like much of a Jensen fans so my guess is that you have not seen him in MBV or playing Ben in Dark Angel where he was amazingly creepy and still oddly sympathetic. Not something that many actors can do as effortlessly as Jensen, IMO of course.

    However, I do think that the show is too scared to give Jensen anything too juicy to play anymore for fear of his over-shadowing his co-star because it seems to me that Gamble was desperately trying to write stuff for Jared that would make him stand out, like soulless Sam or Sam playing multiple versions of himself at the same time. Her clear favoritism of JP over JA came shining through these past two years.

    @Haley 56 I do so agree with all of your comments.

    Comment by Nico — April 12, 2012 @ 2:05 pm

  158. Nico, I’m not a Jensen fan, but I do think he is a good. I’ve seen MBV and I wasn’t impressed by anything in the movie. So, I’m not a fair judge. I didn’t think his character was sympathetic. He did a good job transforming in the end into Harry Warren. I just didn’t have any sympathy and I didn’t think it was a good bad guy. It was predictable and not creepy. Actors can’t do much with a bad script and direction.

    I haven’t seen Dark Angel. As for “Skin,” I think it’s a good performance, but to me, it is monster, not villain. And I personally believe there is a huge difference. I don’t think Jensen does villain well. Partly, because Jensen doesn’t let the character go there. For example, YED by Fredrick Lane and JDM, they’re dark and evil, but you have no sympathy and feel threaten. I don’t want to have sympathy for the villain. That’s why I like Alastair over Lucifer. I like when I see the villains have a certain “fun-ness” to them or they are absolute and they don’t care if you have sympathy towards them.

    I think Jensen could do a lot more for the show and I don’t know why they stick with the depression crap. But I don’t think it has to do with the show being scared of Jared being overshadowed. Jared can hold his own. He’s a capable actor and he does so many things well. Jared has pulled of so many different versions of Sam that I don’t think in a second that Jensen doing something more would take away from Jared at all. I think Jared and Jensen work well together and it’s rare when one of them overpowers the other. And on the rare occasion that happens, it’s the directing and editing choice of focusing on one face that does make it that way. So, I don’t think the fear of the show is a valid reason for why Jensen doesn’t get more. I don’t think Sera thought through anything enough. She couldn’t focus on anything. Take the Leviathans for example, we’re on the nineteenth episode of the season and we’ve only had three episodes about them with a few random scenes tossed it? She didn’t plan or think to the next point and the characters have suffered.

    Comment by CuriousGeorgia — April 12, 2012 @ 2:41 pm

  159. Well if you don’t like Jensen, then of course his performances aren’t going to impress you. I feel the same way about Jared. I think he is servicable at best but I don’t think he has the screen presence or the versatility to carry an episode let alone an entire show and that is what he has been asked to do these past two seasons. In my eyes, he has not succeeded considering the huge amounts of dissatisfaction among fans. But each to their own, a certainly many people would disagree with both of us.

    Comment by Nico — April 12, 2012 @ 4:02 pm

  160. @ CuriousGeorgia #154: I’m afraid I cannot address all your points thoughtfully at this time. I’m slogging thru the trenches of a highly technical paper with established limitations and just found out it is to be submitted on Monday, instead of a week from Monday. The darned thing is turning out to be a tome, not a paper, and I think I’m going to need a lot of hunter’s helper to get wad thru this mess.

    Briefly though, I don’t think JA is taking on the producers or SG in his protectiveness of Dean’s character. I think he is thinking scenes thru in his head and protecting Dean’s character thru his acting. I totally agree that there has been a lot going on behind the scenes, but I doubt we’ll hear much about that. I think I’ve made mention a couple of times, once in S6 and once this season, that I sensed discord on the set.

    I am not questioning JP’s acting ability in my critique of the show, but I am questioning EK and SG’s not using the strengths of the actors, and I do stand by my opinion that SG tried like hell to push JP forward because of her own fangirl issues/likes. I see no other reason for deliberately having Dean be totally useless in S6 or the complete deconstruction of Dean’s character. It is my opinion that JA could not have been in S6 at all and it would have made no difference to the story she told. (Of course, in the end, Sam was only a secondary character, too, but that wasn’t until the very end.)

    I completely disagree that JA cannot play dark and evil exceedinly well, but I do agree that he does not allow Dean to go there. More of that protecting of the character. I wouldn’t want Dean evil (as Sam was when soulless), but I would like to see dark with Sam trying to pull him back.

    Haley56 and Nico covered a lot of your points in their posts, but I will add that when Dean is close to going over the edge in the series, he is scarier than any evil they have had on the show. Whether it is a monster or a villian, the ability to be scary and still show a good quality is a talent. JP misses this point in his various portrayals of dark Sam. He comes off as just mean and snotty and does not keep the character likeable. I can think of no reason why he wouldn’t try to, despite writing or direction. JA does.

    MBV was a B- horror show, but JA played Tom as completely crazy, yet the character remained sympathetic. As Ben in Dark Angel, he played completely nuts, yet he was still likeable. Same thing as Jason in Smallville. The scene in the finale where they talked about Jason’s mother right before he was killed off was excellent, and it was just a brief ‘look’ that portrayed it all. It takes a lot of talent to do that kind of subtle acting, so while the MBV movie was bad, the performance was good. Then the voice work in Under the Red Hood achieved the same results w/o having a face to look at.

    I was hoping they would take Dean belfry bat crazy this season so I could watch how he portrayed that and still kept Dean likeable. Looks like that’s not going to happen.

    So much do agree with you on SG lacking the ability to tell a story or plan a story. That, however, has nothing to do with sidelining a lead. I also agree with you that both characters have been hurt, yet it is only because of the two actors that anybody is still hanging around hoping for something better.

    P.S.: I enjoyed Zach and S4 Crowley because of the villian ‘fun-ness’, but being a villian for Dean is not what I want. I want DarkDean, which means crazy as hell, but still likeable.

    @ Nico: “Since I never bought the line about celebrating humanity anyway, this doesn’t bother me in the slightest. It just means the show is finally being honest and instead of trying to sell Dean fans a bill of goods about him being co-lead character for 7 freakin’ years. At this point, anything that makes Dean as “special” as the other characters is just fine by me.”

    Your pragmatic view is well received by this poster. I should just let it go and hope for better under Carver.

    Comment by Sheri — April 12, 2012 @ 4:06 pm

  161. Um sure Jensen’s character was sympathetic in MBV you didn’t know he was the psycho killer until the end. I felt nothing for him once I found out he was. And I thought Jason in Smallville was a douchebag. TBH Dean is the only character I’ve liked that Jensen has portrayed. Not one of the other characters was ever sympathetic to me.

    Comment by Lil — April 12, 2012 @ 4:33 pm

  162. Sheri, I understand about papers. I have had several due this semester.

    I see your point about Jensen’s acting. But I don’t think Jared missed the point about keeping a character likable. Robo-Sam wasn’t supposed to be likable. And I find that the writing shapes the performance. For example, “The Secret Life of the American Teenager” is terrible and written so poorly that you would never guess that the lead has a Golden Globe nomination. It’s a balance.

    For me, it isn’t always about being sympathetic or likable. The Joker in “The Dark Knight” is the best example of this. Wonderful performance, but you don’t feel sympathy for him. I don’t have to feel sympathy for the character to like them or find them likable to enjoy their performance. Another problem, I have with Dean is that I think is the guilt sympathy card has been played too much. I think it would do the character a world of good to not have guilt dominating and no sympathy. He can still be likable or whatever, but he doesn’t have to be only one suffering or being kicked.

    I would love for Jensen just to throw it all out the window and just stop thinking so much about keeping the character one way or another. But if he isn’t comfortable with the direction of the show, then he is going to fight it. That’s one thing that I find wonderful and frustrating about Jared. He is willing to throw his character under the bus like in “When the Levee Break” for a wonderful performance, but the show isn’t willing to carry it through. I would like to see Jensen do something similar, but I think we would take the same approach Misha Collins took in “The Man Who Would Be King” and it would just come out as a sober story and a bunch of excuses. Neither way does a good job for a character, because you shouldn’t sum up their stories in just one episode.

    I’m not sure I want to see Dean crazy, but I do like the idea of Sam being him back from the edge. It could work. Good luck with your paper!

    Comment by CuriousGeorgia — April 12, 2012 @ 4:52 pm

  163. Interesting Lil. I wish I could critique Jared’s past roles but I can’t recall him in anything off the top of my head. I know he was in Gilmore Girls but the only male character that I remember clearly was Jess. But JP seems to have faded into the mists of time for me. Or maybe it was the wallpaper. Seems to happen to him a lot, according to his own fans.

    Comment by Nico — April 12, 2012 @ 4:56 pm

  164. Nico, I like Jensen just fine, but I’m not a fan of his. He has impressed me before and will again most likely. I don’t agree about Jared. I think he can carry an episode and he has great presence. For me, that is what makes Jared and Jensen work so well together. I don’t think Jared is the problem with the show. There hasn’t been a clear story the last two seasons. Jared is not the reason for the dissatisfaction among the fans. I mean, it’s not Jared’s fault for what is going on with Dean and if you were a Dean fan from the get-go and loved the first two seasons, then it isn’t going to change if someone else is acting on the show. You will still want more for Dean. And no one should expect you to switch to being a Sam girl just being Jared is onscreen, just as no one should expect me to become a Dean girl just because I can like his performance.

    In the end of last season, it turned out that the angels and Castiel were the big characters of the season. Neither Jared or Jensen are the reason for the fans displeasure. You are right if you don’t like an actor then you won’t like their performance, but I think it’s unfair to say that either one of them are the reason for the dissatisfaction of the fans. I think a lot of people would strongly disagree with that.

    Lil, I thought Jason was a douchebag too. But I didn’t think that was Jensen’s fault. The character radically changed half-way through for no reason.

    Comment by CuriousGeorgia — April 12, 2012 @ 5:04 pm

  165. Nico, that was uncalled for.

    Comment by CuriousGeorgia — April 12, 2012 @ 5:09 pm

  166. CuriousGeorgia: Writing does shape the character, but the actor brings so much more to the role than the mere words written on a page.

    I firmly believe that the personality of the person playing the role comes through in the performance. In fact, when I find an actor that interests me, that is what I look for behind the performance.

    I think Jared welcomed the acting challenges and didn’t think about the character. No, NotSam was not supposed to be likeable, but that right there is the problem. In making a lead so unlikeable…and NotSam crossed that line many, many times…Sam’s character was harmed. Prior to that, though, Sam had been a jerk and unlikeable for two seasons. Then to have that same character be guilt-free because he figures he paid his dues and suffered enough blows my mind. Sam may feel guilt free for starting the Apocalypse, but Sam is not guilt free for his past behavior or how he treated Dean, bad decisions, demon blood, or soullessness notwithstanding. To be guilt free, he has to first acknowledge those mistakes. A real boy, a real grown up, would still have guilt over that; especially when, as you say, they have saddled the other lead with unwarranted guilt and apologies, but not handwaved excuses.

    At this point, if JA threw it all out the window, I think the sympathy card would trump all. I know I am at the point where I would jump up and down yelling “Finally! Finally!” if he were to tell them all to take a flying leap and don’t look back. That’s why I wanted to see DarkDean, as opposed to resurrected Cas and Bobby, archangels, prophets, more angel storyline, and working with Meg. Just have Dean tell them all to go to Hell and start from there. So many wrongs could be made right with that angle, and Sam could gain audience redemption for pulling Dean back.

    Totally understand your point about villianry and liking or not liking a character, as opposed to recognizing a good performance. The point for me in this show, however, is that I think if a show establishes a character as a hero amd takes a character on a dark journey, then he needs to have learned something from that experience when he comes back. Having Sam be guilt free is not a transformation — it’s Sam where he started out in the Pilot.

    Granted, that is a writing problem, but that does not negate the bad feelings the character has generated from the audience. If the showrunner or none of the writers recognized this, then JP should have spoken up. A simple line or two to Dean in an episode would have rectified the bad feelings for Sam’s character caused by a role he enjoyed playing. I do not for one second believe that a well-liked lead character in a seven year show does not have the power to express that view…over the phone if nothing else…or to the co-producer who is in Vancouver.

    And you know why I don’t have these same problems with Dean? Because Dean hasn’t done anything worthwhile story-wise in seven years. It’s fortunate that he was given apologizes, guilt for things not his fault, and navel-gazing, otherwise he could have collected his paycheck while basking on the beaches of Hawaii.

    Oh, I take that back. He did make a deal with a demon to save Sam, but he learned from it (No Rest for the Wicked). And, please, no Dean episodes like The Man Who Would Be King. Just, no.

    Comment by Sheri — April 12, 2012 @ 6:06 pm

  167. Sheri: I think the writing has to be good to begin with before an actor can do anything. Or else the actor is going to spend his time fixing it and making it work than just focusing on their performance. I think actors should be able to go against everything they are and become someone else. And on Supernatural, a lot of the time, it’s Jared and Jensen who are doing their part, not the writers.

    I don’t think Sam’s character has been unlikable for the past two seasons. And I don’t think Sam is guilt-free. I know that in “Defending your Life” Sam says he didn’t feel guilty, but he contradicted himself by saying you never really get over it and have a clean bill of health. That didn’t make sense to me. So, he feels regret, but not guilt? Huh? Is this the part of Robo-Sam that we’re supposed to be seeing or bad dialogue? Why are we even talking about Sam?

    I didn’t like that episode and Adam Glass never makes sense to me. And it continues to baffle me, because Sam felt a ton of guilt in the fifth and sixth season, but the writers tabled most of that for the Mother of Nowhere story. And then in this season, Lucifer is practically pushing Sam to kill himself, but Sam is fine. I think Sam has acknowledged his mistakes, but I don’t think the show has written the points of showing what Sam thinks about those mistakes. In the entire fifth season, there isn’t one scene that talks about how Sam feels about what happened. In the entire sixth season, there isn’t one scene that discusses how Sam felt about the vampires. Those scenes are essential and if they’re not written, then the actor can’t perform them . With Dean, he gets the scenes pointing out his guilt and his emotions. But you can’t fault either character when for being expressed or not expressed. It’s a balancing act. So, why is it so difficult to show two characters? Because the writers don’t want to write human beings.

    I don’t think the writers think about everything, but it is their job, because they should know what they are intended to show to help with characters. However, I find Sam still likable when he is Sam. I’m not looking for an overload of Sam point of view, but I am looking for some human focus.

    Jared doesn’t read what is said online and neither does Jensen. The people who go to the convention love the show unconditionally, so they don’t know how the online audience views the show. And a lot of people aren’t displeased with the characters like on Tumblr. So, I don’t think it’s their responsible to know or speak up about the audience. If the writers claim they read what is written online, then it’s all on them. I’m sure if the guys thought they’re characters were creating bad feelings, then they would speak up. But then the producers have the ultimate excuse of hater will just hater.

    Look, at what happens on Twitter. People are shot down for asking questions about certain characters or called a hater because they said that not everyone loves this character. You add that to the real haters and people who tweeted Jared that they hoped his wife and child would die, then it only proves to the producers that the audience doesn’t know best. The writers don’t distinguish between the haters and the fans with real complaints and who have suggestions.

    Bad feelings from the audience are dismissed just as quickly as used gum. It’s the producers job to talk the actors off the edge and convince them that everyone loves them and to do the scene like the Whoopie cushion scene in season five. Basing what should happen to a character on what the audience thinks doesn’t work, because then we would have the brothers together kicking ass. However, if the actors were to ask about where the story is going and what is happening to the character, then maybe they would be listened to. But I based on what I seen in interviews with writers, they don’t care what their actors think and it goes in one ear and out the other and they have the actors under contract.

    Comment by CuriousGeorgia — April 12, 2012 @ 6:44 pm

  168. @ CuriousGeorgia: Now you are into defending Sam territory and not discussing valid points of characterization or where storylines have taken the characters, so we’ll end it with agreeing to disagree. Nice chat, though.

    Comment by Sheri — April 12, 2012 @ 7:06 pm

  169. CuriousGeorgina: “Nico, that was uncalled for.”

    LOL! Here we go with the double standards. I wondered how long it would take. You were the one that started in on the actor “critiquing” and I notice you had no problem with “Lil’s” snarky little bash. Probably your sock-puppet. But whatever. If it’s OK for you and “your friend” to say you don’t like Jensen’s acting, pray tell, why can I not say that I find Jared’s acting utterly forgettable? I do so love the double standards in this fandom.

    Comment by Nico — April 12, 2012 @ 7:06 pm

  170. Whoa…what is your problem? So you can critique Jared all you want but critiquing Jensen isn’t allowed? What were you saying about double standards? I said I didn’t like Jensen’s CHARACTERS. Nothing wrong with that. Not his acting, especially since I like Dean so that makes no sense. Now you have just proven that all you are doing is putting Jensen on a pedestal to elevate him over Jared…a class extreme Deangirl tactic.

    Am I really someone’s sockpuppet or friend simply for having a similar opinion? Really I ought to report you.

    Comment by Lil — April 12, 2012 @ 7:11 pm

  171. Hey your buddy CuriousGeorge is the one running around trying to set limits on what people can and cannot say. As per usual, and yes because of the double standards by extreme sam fans such as yourself, you cannot take what you dish out.

    As for reporting me go for it if it. Shutting down discussion seems to be the raison d’etre of this website judging by all the dead forums around here.

    Comment by Nico — April 12, 2012 @ 8:59 pm

  172. Amazing. For a few moments there we actually had an intelligent, respectful discussion going there between fans on opposite sides.
    And then- zip- it turns into the usual hate/like crap.
    Too bad. I thought I was on a different forum for a moment and then I realized it was just the same old place.
    There was nothing wrong with Nico’s post (#163). She doesn’t care for Jared. And some of you don’t care for Jensen. So?
    Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t mean they should be “reported”. Sounds like one of my little ones shouting at the other “I’m going to tell Mom!”
    Agree to disagree and end the discussion- like Sheri did- when it goes beyond agreeable terms.
    We are adults here. Act like it.

    Comment by SL — April 13, 2012 @ 5:00 am

  173. So I guess the Dean fanatics have taken over the board. It’s dead. They’re the only ones who post anymore and then the occasional fan who wanders in with a different opinion is atttacked as usual. And then ridiculed because they want to report bad behavior. Yeah pretty soon there will be only 3 similar minded extremists on here. Congrats to running people off the board.

    Comment by K — April 13, 2012 @ 5:32 am

  174. Nico, you bashed Jared when we weren’t even discussing him and Lil made a comment about a character, Not an actor and I agreed about the character and said it wasn’t Jensen’s fault. I said that I did like Jensen’s acting, but I am not someone that follows him. Say what you want, but you don’t have to be just because someone else says something about Jensen. It’s not a double standard, it’s common decency. I’m not setting limits or reporting anyone. I thought it was uncalled for, because Jared wasn’t in the conversation and you were clearly just going after him because of what was said about Jensen. And there is nothing wrong with stating that. We can disagree without being nasty or calling each other names like sock puppet or extreme Sam fans or purposely misspelling someone’s name.

    It seems to be you are the only one is having any type of problem with it. We’ll just disagree. And move on. SL is right we are all adults and we don’t have to be nasty.

    Comment by CuriousGeorgia — April 13, 2012 @ 5:36 am

  175. Sheri, I don’t understand what is wrong with defending Sam when he the character I care about and others can defend Dean all they want, but I guess it is best to end. It seems like it’s time to go. Thank you for the chat.

    Comment by CuriousGeorgia — April 13, 2012 @ 5:39 am

  176. Criticizing the character Dean is in no way criticizing Jensen Ackles. Dean is a fictional character and Jensen Ackles is human being; they are not the same thing. Ackles, from the beginning of the series, has consistently demonstrated an amazing acting ability. IMO he has been given bad script after bad script in seasons 6 and 7. (And, from his comments Ackles seems to share that opinion. Does that mean Ackles is a Dean hater? I think not.) I don’t respond positively to the season 6 and 7 Dean character–a character I consider a waste of Ackles talent. The character has been reduced to me to a whiney self-centered, emo fellow who basically does nothing but emote. That says nothing about Jensen Ackles; it speaks to the writing for the character Dean Winchester that Jensen Ackles plays. Bashing Padalecki to promote Dean or bashing Jensen as a means of promoting Sam or is simply irrational.
    Soap actors have frequently encountered these people who cannot separate the actor from the person they play on television. Many extreme Dean or Sam fans fall into that category. Assuming that all SPN fans fall into that category or come from that delusional perspective is absurd. Most fans IMO have an attachment to one or the other Winchester characters, but they are able to separate the actor from the character and celebrate both Jensen and Padalecki. I’m sure Jensen and Padalecki, as adults in the entertainment business, know that.
    I’m drawn more to the character Sam, but I think Jensen has demonstrated the better acting skills over the course of SPN. It is possible to separate the character and the actor! Both guys are still young and developing their craft. I’ve seen Jared grow tremendously as an actor in the series. Where they will be as actors and career-wise 20 years from now is not predictable, but both have given me enough pleasure in SPN that I hope they have the careers they want, and I’ll follow them. Both have the acting skills equal or superior to many Hollywood stars; it’s a matter of luck and opportunity as to where they come out, but I’ll be pulling for both of them.

    Comment by CaseyT — April 13, 2012 @ 6:13 am

  177. Actually I think- at times- both Jensen and Jared have better acting skills than aLOT of ‘Hollywood stars’.
    It is hard on this forum to openly support one specific brother because then you are viewed as not liking the other one. That may not be true but-on this site- that is how it is treated by many other posters.
    Just because one person happens to like Dean Winchester more then they like Sam Winchester does not mean they hate the other character and/or the actor portraying them. And the same in regards to liking Sam more than Dean.
    What I don’t like is when someone purposely belittles or ridicules the other character/actor in an attempt to “defend” the one they like better. That is childish behavior.
    To build up one character/actor you do not have to tear the other down.
    Afterall, this show would never have existed and would not be on the air today if not for the strengths of both characters/actors.
    There is no need for the attacks and defenses on this site; we are all fans, are we not?

    Comment by SL — April 13, 2012 @ 6:30 am

  178. CuriousGeorgia, first of all I apologize for getting your name wrong. I didn’t double check it before posting. It was an honest mistake, but if you want to take it as an insult in order to amp up your butthurt, more power to you.

    “Not an actor and I agreed about the character and said it wasn’t Jensen’s fault. I said that I did like Jensen’s acting, but I am not someone that follows him. Say what you want, but you don’t have to be just because someone else says something about Jensen. It’s not a double standard, it’s common decency. I’m not setting limits or reporting anyone. I thought it was uncalled for, because Jared wasn’t in the conversation and you were clearly just going after him because of what was said about Jensen. And there is nothing wrong with stating that.”

    Wow do you even read what you post? You are saying that it is OK for you to criticize Jensen’s acting (which is fine by me by the way) but the minute anyone criticizes Jared’s, then it is bashing. You introduced the acting criticism to the discussion, but apparently you are so entitled to believe that only you or your POV is allowed to be expressed.

    How do you not understand the inherent hypocrisy in the stance?

    How do you not understand why you telling off someone for doing exactly what you are doing, is a double standard?

    And what does common decency have to do with anything? This is a message board where people are supposed to able express their opinions. If someone finds fault with one or both of the actors performances (as you droned on about at length with Jensen) then who are you to object to someone else finding another actor forgettable? I am boggled at your lack of awareness and comprehension at how you contradict yourself.

    Also, I find it hilarious that you accuse me of criticizing Jared’s acting just to prop up Jensen, when your entire criticism of Jensen is based on a false premise. You think Jensen isn’t capable of playing Dean as a villain. But Dean has never been a villain or the bad guy on the show so why would that be a requirement for him? Talk about looking for reasons to tear him down in order promote your favorite.

    I understand you appreciation for Sam playing a bad guy. I thought he did well as Meg (though none of his other attempts have ever done anything for me since he comes across as douchey rather than scary or bad) but saying that Jensen has never done anything similar is like comparing apples to oranges, if you insist that playing a monster is different from playing a villain, which you did.

    Your agenda was obvious from the beginning but I was hoping we could have a civilized discussion. Your sudden need to call me out for no reason other than getting butthurt and defensive over criticism of your favorite, made me realize that rational discussion is pointless because your motive was not honest discussion but a not very cleverly disguised attempt to prop Jared at Jensen’s expense.

    @K Did you object when this place was nothing but ESG Dean and Cas haters making their homophobic rants. Yeah I didn’t think so. A few posts where people actually spoke about Dean without bashing him and your panties are in a bunch. How very telling.

    Comment by Nico — April 13, 2012 @ 8:26 am

  179. Well at least he’s predictable folks.

    Comment by K — April 13, 2012 @ 8:39 am

  180. @ CuriousGeorgia #175: Let me explain myself better. There is nothing wrong with defending Sam. In fact, I like well-thoughtout discussions with Sam defenders and one like we were having, because it makes me think beyond my bias and lack of empathy issues. CaseyT, in fact, does this quite regularly.

    However, when things like what is said on Twitter or what some fans say mean to other fans, or how some crazies are stalking the brothers, I bow out. I don’t tweet, have no intentions of tweeting, and don’t have a clue as to what is said there. I don’t think one can have intelligent conversations in short sentences, so I’m not interested. Nor do I get into the Sam -vs- Dean crap. While I do like to discuss the show and my reaction to the story and characters, and while I do prefer Dean and Jensen’s acting to Sam and Jared’s acting, I have no capacity to ‘hate’ on fictional characters, because I don’t think voicing opinions equates to hate anyway.

    With that view in mind, I will say that I have not liked Sam since the end of S3. I do not think he feels guilt for what he has done to Dean over the years. I think he does feel guilt and remorse for starting the Apocalypse.

    I don’t remember the scene you mentioned from Defend Your Life clearly, but I’m thinking Sam was referring to the constant hallucinations and still living with Luci when he said ‘you never get over it.’ Like I said, I don’t remember the dialogue, but at that point, Sam had no hope or idea that his wall could be repaired. Death had already told him only one wall per customer in the premiere episode.

    As far as bad feelings from the audience and whether producers care or not, I don’t see that as a valid argument against my point that JP should have stepped in and voiced concerns about how unlikeable Sam would look for some of the things he did without a specific sentence of dialogue to ensure the audience understood that he was apologizing to Dean for such things as letting him be turned into a vamp. The point I made was in reference to protecting his character so that he would not be viewed as a total dick. Audience satisfaction shows up in viewership numbers, and despite the fact that SPN is doing okay on the CW, close to a million viewers have quit watching since SG took over. I may be a little thick, but I take that as definite viewer dissatisfaction (and that was at a time when the whole season was focused on soulless Sam and Dean had no role in the season — screen time; yes, but purpose, no).

    And let me clearly state that I do not think ONLY Dean fans quit watching. Rather, I think that there was general dissatisfaction throughout fandom with the direction, stories, lack of focus, and all the other problems the show was obviously having. I know for myself, if every couple of three episodes, Dean bait wasn’t thrown out to make me believe that Dean was going to play some role, I would have quit.

    @ CaseyT #176: Good post, Casey, and I couldn’t agree more.

    @ Nico: I thought your post was funny, but I like dry humor. But you knew you weren’t responding to be humorous. You knew you’d get a reaction, didn’t you? Come on, fess up. As ole’ YED said, “Two wrongs don’t make a right.”

    You make valid points. Use them and join me in taking over the board with logical, rational Dean love. I could use the help.

    Comment by Sheri — April 13, 2012 @ 9:53 am

  181. “Well at least he’s predictable folks.”

    @K Look at you trying to be witty. So cute.

    But you do raise an interesting point about the sudden radio silence of Sam fans. I wonder if they realized that their ungrateful bitching about Gamble not giving enough to Sam when she basically gave them everything they were asking for in the form of the woobiest Sam whoever limped, while still being stronger and more badass than his depressed brother who has apparently forgotten how to shoot a gun.

    For whatever reason, Gamble is gone after this year and there goes their biggest ally and their constant bitching may well have contributed to her decision to leave as much as the Dean and Castiel fans.

    Whether Carver will be better is anyone’s guess but he has written good episodes for both Dean and Sam in the past, yet the few comments I have seen from Sam fans suggest they expect the worst. But if their claims about wanting the show to be about both brothers equally are true, why should they worry about a showrunner who makes more of an effort to balance the characters than Gamble who has shown her bias for Sam so obviously? I just find it curious is all.

    “I thought your post was funny, but I like dry humor. But you knew you weren’t responding to be humorous. You knew you’d get a reaction, didn’t you? Come on, fess up. As ole’ YED said, “Two wrongs don’t make a right.”

    You make valid points. Use them and join me in taking over the board with logical, rational Dean love. I could use the help.”

    @Sheri, well once it was clear that CuriousGeorgia was just being disingenuous, I may have laid it on a little thick. But I stand by my criticism that JP just does not have the screen presence to be as front and center as he has been for the past two years. And I honestly do not remember much about his Dean from Gilmore Girls. Even Chad Michael Murray stands out more for me.

    In terms of supporting our Dean, I am happy to do so, but it’s just not in me to let the hypocrites get away with the crap they have been spewing for years on this board. They have taken over the board literally through all the Sam girl moderators and have made it almost impossible for any kind of interesting discussion to take place.

    Just look at the Dean mytharc thread which is constantly hijacked by mods using straw man arguments to try and derail discussion. The constant need to “correct” the posters there even while droning on at length about how every opinion is valid, when they are clearly saying the opposite in their posts, makes posting in the forums an exercise in frustration.

    It’s like they are terrified that anyone who has a different opinion than themselves will be heard and that will somehow affect the show, which is ridiculous considering how long many Dean fans have been complaining about the lack of story for him and how nothing ever really changes.

    Anyway, sorry if my posting here is frustrating for you but I feel that someone has to take on their smug complacency and call them on their crap once in a while. If they want to get me banned for it, that is up to them. But until that happens, I ain’t gonna shut up.

    Comment by Nico — April 13, 2012 @ 10:37 am

  182. @ Nico: ” But I stand by my criticism that JP just does not have the screen presence to be as front and center as he has been for the past two years.”

    I do agree with this, and I think Dean can easily dominate any scene he is in, but others prefer Sam. I’ve always thought this was due to the traits individuals like in men, at least I would expect the younger fans to like Sam best. Have you seen the high school boys these days? Yuck. Anyway, I prefer complicated people, so I find Dean the most interesting character in the show. It really doesn’t matter to me which one anybody likes, if they can speak intelligently about the show, the story, and/or the characters.

    “Just look at the Dean mytharc thread which is constantly hijacked by mods using straw man arguments to try and derail discussion.”

    I don’t even know what this is — but some advise– stay away from Winchester Family Business if you think this board is dominated by Sam fans. I like WFB, but it is defintely all about Sam for the most part…at least I find it so.

    Your posts don’t frustrate me. More often than not, I’m laughing, because I am quite familiar with the method you are using. (My husband might would say that I perfected it, I think.) I just think you are quite capable of using valid points and logic when challenging “smug complacency”. It’s more effective.

    But, hey, there are no problems between us. If I find that we disagree on points of the show, we’ll discuss as we usually do, which has always been civil.

    Comment by Sheri — April 13, 2012 @ 11:19 am

  183. Nico: Most of the time- FOR ME- your posts are like a breath of fresh air on this site. Honestly, for quite awhile the only real openly supportive poster on this forum- besides my self- was Sheri. She has always been in Dean’s corner and I have always appreciated that- even when I have disagreed with her.
    Yes, sometimes I do feel your rage and your discontent in your posts- always in response to posters you believe are attacking either Dean/Jensen or the very idea of supporting Dean/Jensen. And I do not agree with how you feel about Sam/Jared- BUT I AM FINE WITH THAT. I don’t need people to see things the way I do. I just want them to be able to express their views in an intelligent, calm, respectful manner. Sadly, on this site that has been a hard thing to find because there have been so many hateful, irrational postings made here.
    But I understand how you feel about responding to such posts. Most of those people deserve to get back what they throw out at others.
    But I am fully open to having a fair and honest discussion with people I may not agree with. Johno and I disagree alot but I always do read his posts with honest interest. I find myself disagreeing with alot of CaseyT’s posts but I read them with respect and do try to see where she is coming from (although I do admit I do not always find that place!)
    But posters like K above I just shove to the side of the road and pass by. They never have anything of substance to post here and they just do their best to throw hate at anyone they can. Take that from where it comes. I do.
    As far as the absence of some very clear hateful/homophobic posters here of late- do not miss them at all.
    I much prefer conversations like Sheri and CuriousGeorgia had above. Two people on opposite sides of the discussion but- for the most part- speaking rationally and respectfully with each other. That is a rarity on this site. I wish it was more commonplace.
    But Nico: Keep posting. It is rare to have such a fervent Dean-supporter here. As an open fan of Dean- AND SAM- I appreciate your comments.

    Comment by SL — April 13, 2012 @ 3:46 pm

  184. This is good news. I think the show went away from what worked and went to a pointless story line with no possible good outcome. The demons and vampires made the show and the off theme episodes were great in the last 5 seasons. These last two were directionless and reaching. The killing off of Castiel was a weird decision and it left a void in the drama. I think the return of the original writers will take the boys in the right direction. They saved the world and I think expected the series to end. Instead, the show renewed and where do you go after saving the world? The heavenly war story line seemed to drift in and out and got a bit tedious but was far superior to this season. I think a writer just went into the bible and just found the Leviathan mentioned and decided to make a story about it. Unfortunately, the story made us exhausted and frustrated and it had nothing to do with the sea creatures. The season breaks also showed uncertainty in what the writers were doing.Looking forward to better episodes. They also need to start planning a spin off involving a new angel, maybe female, and some younger hunters. The killing of Rufus made no sense either. Seems as if this show could go for another two seasons the most.

    Comment by Uncle Kevin — April 13, 2012 @ 7:05 pm

  185. I’m sorry but I don’t take much stock into what fans say about the actor’s acting abilities. It’s usually just fans praising their favorite. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that those who say Jensen’s acting is superior to everyone else are Dean fans, or that those who applaud Jared are Sam fans, or those who think Misha is a better actor than Jared are Cas fans. Not to mention if they hate or dislike a character they usually believe the actor is terrible as well. Yeah not suspicious at all.

    There’s simply too much bias among the fandom for anyone to accurately comment on their acting abilities without bias. So sorry but to me that’s just a way of gushing about your favorite.

    Comment by Odo — April 14, 2012 @ 4:56 pm

  186. Thanks SL and Sherie and no worries, I’m not planning to go anywhere.

    @Odo I totally agree that judgements of acting talent are completely subject, including insisting that everyone is equally skilled. I have never claimed otherwise and have always couched my opinions as just that, opinions, unlike others here. But I would also point out that, despite also just being opinion, far more critics have chosen Jensen for the Emmy wishlists or single him out for his acting. Just throwing it out there.

    Comment by Nico — April 15, 2012 @ 6:52 am

  187. I would also add that one poster, and I think it was on this board, said that his acting professor said Jensen in The End was the best one-on-one acting he had seen. I don’t remember if he said he showed the episode in class or if they just discussed it. If that poster is still reading, maybe they could elaborate further.

    Everyone recognizes JA has the best rubber face on television. Paul Newman, in his younger days, used that technique, but I never understood WTH ‘the looks’ meant. They always left me confused. With JA, I have no problem understanding what is going on — especially when he says one thing and is feeling another.

    Comment by Sheri — April 15, 2012 @ 7:42 am

  188. I’ve been a lurker on this board and I just have to say that I’m so sick of Dean and his annoying fans acting so entitled and thinking they own the fandom. I haven’t come across one nice, respectful Dean fan who doesn’t put down Sam at any chance they get. I have zero respect for most Dean fans that I encounter because most of them act so entitled and annoying.

    About the show, I stopped watching this season, because it turned into the Dean show. I’m an open Sam fan and I’m not ashamed to say that because it is what I am. Dean fans within this fandom is one of the main contributing factors as to why I have stopped watching this show and I know many others who are just like me. So I’m not alone.

    Comment by Rebecca — April 16, 2012 @ 6:54 am

  189. I think it´s true that jensen has this special something that you might know from the old movie stars in some of his acting. And I´ve never seen any male actor being able to cry as beautiful as he does. But I have to admit, I´m still a tiny bit more in the Sam-corner, despite Jared´s small lacks of acting abilities in some situations. It´s just that I always have been fond of the demon blood story line and it was his part to carry this supernatural darkness inside of himself which made him attracting to me. On the other hand his human development was suffering under that weight, especially in the last two seasons. On this side, Dean´s character appeared to have a bit more depth. He was the on keeeping the show on the ground somehow. This all together used to give some balance to the whole story. Well, at least for five seasons. To my mind it would have been almost better if the fifth season really would have been the end, as kripke had planned in the beginning. It was a beautifully written one indeed. Still, I don´t mean what I just wrote, as Supernatural is and will always be my favourite TV show.
    And not to give a false image of what I think of JP: He´s a great actor when it comes to loosing Dean, playing evil or going crazy. Just next to JA, he sometimes looks a bit pale.

    To the villains-thing: I think my favourite villain is crowley, as he is cruel and evil and everything, but if I´d meet him on the street, I´m sure I´d like to have a drink with him because that could be real fun. Furthermore, he has stile, and one of the most memorable things in season six was his interpretation of hell.

    I could keep going on writing for ages, but my boss wouldn´t appreciate this so much. Love your comments anyway!

    Comment by nora — April 16, 2012 @ 7:06 am

  190. Nice comment, Nora. I’ll just add about Crowley that I really like him. I didn’t like him as much last season as much as I have in the past, because I think he lost a lot of his ‘charm’ when he wasn’t working as a ‘frenemy’ to the brothers. I’m hoping when we see him again, that he is again a self-serving little frenemy. Sure would rather see him in an episode than Meg.

    Comment by Sheri — April 16, 2012 @ 7:27 am

  191. @188-I had to LOL at this post because if one just switched out the names Dean and Sam in your post, you’d have a pretty good idea of how many in the Dean fandom have been feeling for a long time now, IMO-since at least the end of S5-and for some, it’s been even longer, especially in terms of actual myth-arc storylines in each season.

    Comment by Sarah2 — April 16, 2012 @ 8:40 am

  192. @Sarah2 You do realize you only proved her point aobut Dean fans don’t you?

    Comment by K — April 16, 2012 @ 8:53 am

  193. Oh K, there you go trying to be clever again and proving that Sam fans like you and Rebecca never, ever practice what you preach. Talk about entitled. LOL!

    By the way Rebecca, if you have stopped watching the show because of Dean fans, why are you still lurking around reading comments by Dean fans. Surely if we annoy you enough to drive you away from a show itself, you would want to avoid our posts, right? LOL!

    Comment by Nico — April 16, 2012 @ 10:13 am

  194. You’re just making it worse and everything that she said about Dean fans true. It’s not about being clever it’s common sense.

    Comment by K — April 16, 2012 @ 10:50 am

  195. @ 188 Rebecca: Well, I’ve never quite understood living my life based on what other people say or what other people do, so I’m glad you have friends that share your universe.

    As for me, I stuck in there all through S6 while Sam was the special snowflake everything, including that brilliant essence SG talked about, even though Dean could have not been in the entire season and it wouldn’t have made one bit of difference. But one thing that SG does manage to do well, and that is to give the brothers equal screen time, so I totally ignored the crumby story and watched to enjoy my favorite actor.

    Comment by Sheri — April 16, 2012 @ 12:08 pm

  196. Rebecca: You are entitled to your opinion. You favor Sam. Fine. LOTS of people on this forum favor Sam. I,personally like the character very much.
    What ruins your entire post is your attack on EVERY SINGLE PERSON who favors Dean like you favor Sam.
    I Love Dean and Sam and Bobby and I like Castiel very much. No matter what anyone else posts about these characters I will never change my mind about them. But that doesn’t mean I have to go out of my way and attack you because you like Sam better than Dean or better than Bobby or better than Castiel.
    Not everyone that favors Sam has to act as low as K does. You don’t like the way some fans post here? Ignore them then and post your own personal thoughts about the show and the characters.
    But when you come right out from lurking and attack an ENTIRE group of individual people based on your perception you just come out sounding very narrow-minded and hateful.
    And Nico makes a good point: If you aren’t watching the show anymore because you feel there is nothing there of interest for you, then why are you posting here?
    Your post does nothing to support your views; it just throws you in the gutter with K and cronies. I am sure you can do better than that. Or maybe not.

    Comment by SL — April 16, 2012 @ 1:59 pm

  197. You know your buddy Nico is always attacking every single Sam fan and often resorts to this same method of generalizations. Interesting how it bothers you only when it involves Dean fans.

    Comment by K — April 16, 2012 @ 3:17 pm

  198. I have said that I do not agree with the way Nico feels about the character of Sam or Jared. For I like Sam and Jared very much. Met Jared at a convention here at home 2 years ago and found him a very sweet and kind person. Having met him I could never say a bad thing about him and I do not understand how anyone else can.

    However, K, you ATTACK any individual here- on a personal level- that doesn’t worship the ground Sam/Jared walks on. Got news for you, honey: NO ONE WORSHIPS the ground he walks on!! You complain that the “Dean fans” have “taken over the board” and won’t let the ‘widdle Samfanatics’ come out and play.


    Unlike when you and your cronies ran this forum into the sewer, most of the people posting here are able to discuss the show and the characters- and disagree- with respect and proper manners. You have NEVER been able to do that here. Go back and read your own posts throughout the many threads here and the majority of them are just filled with hateful comments about other posters who dare to say they like Castiel or they like Dean.

    You are right, K, Nico does come right out and shove back in your face the very crap you spew out upon the rest of us. Why is that wrong when that is all you do?

    I would like to see just one post by you that bares no hate and no anger and just has a valid discussion about an actual topic on this forum. I have never seen one and I can bet I never will.

    Personally, I would much rather someone put me in the same category as Nico than ever put me in the one you belong in.

    Comment by SL — April 16, 2012 @ 3:45 pm

  199. Don’t worry you’re already in the same category my dear.

    Comment by K — April 16, 2012 @ 4:05 pm

  200. Thank You. I take that as a compliment.

    Comment by SL — April 16, 2012 @ 6:06 pm

  201. Does anyone realise she was FIRED

    Comment by BloomofSparks — April 17, 2012 @ 5:49 am

  202. Maybe is it is personally satisfying to you to see someone giving it to the Sam fans but I don’t see how the forum is any better off if the nastiness is just coming from a different fan set. There’s a whole bunch of generalizing going on from a lot of directions.

    Comment by beth w — April 17, 2012 @ 8:01 am

  203. Yes K, because common sense dictates that people seek out the very thing that makes them unhappy and wallow in it. Ever heard that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting a different result each time?

    @beth w, Dean and Castiel fans have felt bullied by sam fans on these boards for years. They tried ignoring the offenders. They tried engaging them in civil discourse. Neither worked so most of them left. My being here at least means they get a taste of their own medicine, and considering all the whining they have been doing, they seem not to find it very pleasant. Good. It’s about time they realized how their behavior has made other people feel. People reap what they sow.

    @SL thanks as always for your support. It is amusing to me how desperate the sam fans are to get rid of me. I guess I really put a wrench in all their Dean and Castiel bashing when I should up. If only I would leave them in peace to hate on other characters in order to make their favorite look better. Their lives are so very difficult these days, poor helpless little mites.

    Comment by Nico — April 17, 2012 @ 8:16 am

  204. @Nico Except of course not every Sam fan is responsible for what each Sam fan says. You may be giving people a “taste of their own medicine” who don’t even deserve it. And then YOU become the bully.

    Comment by Iz — April 17, 2012 @ 11:23 am

  205. Really guys are we still doing this? Posters like Rebecca are one-time posters. They never come back so I wouldn’t bother responding. You’re just wasting your energy over nothing.

    Why does everyone have to be so political? Does it really matter who’s a Sam fan or Dean fan? Why can’t we just discuss the show and leave it at that? There’s no need to insult someone because they love a character you don’t. There’s also no need to take everything out on every Sam or Dean fan you come into contact with because you’ve had bad experiences. It just makes the board unpleasant and people will always be fighting. I suggest ignoring these posts.

    Or you guys can keep on fighting instead of discussing the show if you want but it’s much more stressful and aggravating. Leave the Sam fans alone. Leave the Dean fans alone. Leave the Cas fans alone. If you don’t like the fighting and attacking, don’t encourage or respond to it. Just my advice. I know I’m tired of it.

    Comment by Sara — April 17, 2012 @ 11:36 am

  206. “@Nico Except of course not every Sam fan is responsible for what each Sam fan says. You may be giving people a “taste of their own medicine” who don’t even deserve it. And then YOU become the bully.”

    True enough Iz. But not every Dean fan is what Rebecca is screeching about either and you don’t call her out, which again suggests that your perch on that high horse is shaky at best.

    @Sarah if you honestly believe that Rebecca is a one-time poster, you are either incredibly naive or completely disingenuous. Same goes for believing her claims of being driven away from watching the show by those evil, evil Dean fans who dare not to love Sam best. I would assume that she watches the show in the privacy of her home so the Dean fan hoards get to her there is anyone’s guess. What are they doing, squatting in front of her TV and yammering on about Dean’s awesomeness?

    Seriously, I take the point that these forums are not particular pleasant place to be and I own my contribution to that. But not a single one of you Sam fans who are suddenly presenting yourselves as reasonable and moderate, seemed to do much complaining when it was Sam fans attacking anyone who had a different POV from them.

    The way I see it, nothing is going to change around here until every side owns up to their nastiness and their hypocrisy and manages to discuss the show without attacking other fans or discussing one character or actor without tearing down other characters or actors. One set of rules for everyone.

    Comment by Nico — April 17, 2012 @ 1:10 pm

  207. Nico,

    I agree with that last paragraph. Negativity just breeds negativity.

    Comment by beth w — April 17, 2012 @ 1:24 pm

  208. Nico: some good points again.

    Iz why don’t you call Rebecca and K out the same way you go after Nico? Hard to take anything you post with any conviction when you refuse to look at both sides of the fence here.

    Comment by SL — April 17, 2012 @ 2:37 pm

  209. Geez you try to give friendly advice.

    Comment by Sara — April 17, 2012 @ 2:48 pm

  210. The amount of Castiel and Castiel fan bashing that’s happening on this site, is appalling. I thought I would enjoy reading some of your comments, but people are apparently still hung up on the Dean vs. Sam war.
    My opinion. I don’t want to watch the weekly monster of the week SamnDean show, because it’s boring. Also I don’t want the show to return to 1/2 seasons because a show needs to progress and not regress. That’s why season 7 failed. It tried to copy something that doesn’t work because Sam and Dean are not the same characters anymore.
    I enjoy Castiel and want him to be just as important as Sam and Dean and many others want this as well. I enjoy his dynamic with Dean and that doesn’t mean I hate Sam.
    I’m not stating my opinion as fact, but to think Castiel fans are a loud minority is simply delusional. The show has changed and it’s never gonna be the same, so we all might as well sit back and see what Carver will do.
    My wish: Give Dean one single independent storyline that doesn’t revolve around Sam! I’m sick of his caretaker role.

    Comment by Caroline — June 5, 2012 @ 8:23 am

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