Season 7 Finale Discussion

It’s here, the season 7 finale of Supernatural. The epic showdown between the Winchesters and the Leviathans. And if history teaches us anything (car crash, Dean selling his soul to bring Sam back, Dean going to Hell, Lucifer rising, Sam being stuck in the cage and Cas becoming Evil God), it’s that Supernatural never ends on a positive, “Yay, we won and everything is rainbows and puppies!” kind of way.

Read my full recap HERE or keep reading for my quick thoughts.

Wow. Before this episode I wrote down all the season endings that have come before this one, and it seems like this show is better at cliffhangers than any other show on TV. Every year they manage ti do something crazy and game-changing, especially odd-numbered seasons. Season 3? Dean goes to Hell? Season 5? Sam in the cage. Season 7? Dean in Purgatory!

I suppose we have to start at that ending. After talking about Purgatory for so damn long, I’m excited to see it. It seems appropriately spooky, and I’m curious how the heck this show will move forward in season 8. Part of me hopes Dean stays in Purgatory for a while, because think of the possibilities. It’s where monsters go when they die. Well, Dean has killed a lot of monsters. All of them could be there. Azazel. Lilith. Eve. The show just opened the door to any number of possibilities.

And having both brothers end up alone was great. Sam was stranded in an equally foreign place. And I love that Crowley is easily and obviously the Big Bad of season 8. Despite stranding Dean in Purgatory, I feel like Sera Gamble ended the season with a huge present for Jeremy Carver, because he has sooo many options for where to take this show.

I haven’t even mentioned Bobby yet. That was a great final scene and I love that the camera stayed on the boys and we saw Bobby’s ghost burn up in their faces. But I wonder: Since Bobby sorta turned into a vengeful spirit, would he go to Purgatory?

Sure, the killing of Dick was kinda simplistic and it more than resembled the way Dean took out Zachariah, but whatever. The explosion made me jump, and I like that Leviathans are now just another type of monster on the loose, like one could be the Monster of the Week next season.

Oh yeah, and the Impala returned!!! Seeing Dean’s Baby once again definitely brought a smile to my face. Maybe that’s why this season has seemed like such a downer. No Impala.

Since I seem to be recapping this episode in reverse, I’ll end at the beginning. Is there anything better than a “Road So Far” montage set to “Carry On My Wayward Son”? Because that pumped me up like nobody’s business.

News posted on May 18, 2012 Comments (744)


  1. So looking forward to tonight but sad at the same time that time will have to pass before I can get another fix of the Winchesters. Love, love, love this show.

    Comment by Louise — May 18, 2012 @ 3:08 pm

  2. I’m in total agreement with you Louise!

    Comment by twinster — May 18, 2012 @ 4:13 pm

  3. Oh, I hate finales… I just wanna see where all this is going, but we’ll only see that on the premiere of season 8!

    Comment by Dish — May 18, 2012 @ 4:14 pm

  4. Thank you Yankees for making to have to wait one more day to see this.

    Comment by Jared — May 18, 2012 @ 5:22 pm

  5. I have not followed the comments recently, but I just want to say that I understand why Cas acts the way he does. As Bobby said about Sam in the Season Six finale, Castiel’s wall is broken. He may seem stupid or useless to some, but his character has developed. He went from a soldier to a friend, from an angel with since of humanity to a “god”, and now he is facing the consequences for his actions.

    Someone commented that after Season Five the universe of “Supernatural” altered for a reason, and that was because the Apocalypse was averted. I have to agree even though I do not find some of these episodes as enjoyable as the previous seasons, back when even a filler could be fantastic and add something to the overall arching story.

    I will stick with this show until the end, but it is difficult to watch the Season Five finale since Chuck constantly mentions the end.

    Comment by Chris — May 18, 2012 @ 5:26 pm

  6. Half way through this pretty good episode (so far) and the only downer is the ever USELESS and ANNOYING Castiel. Sheesh, kill him already. Cas has been a liar and a coward since season 4, always blaming others for his own actions (like trying to blame Ellie’s death on Crowley). At least Cas took Sam’s insanity onto his own, which he caused in the first place.

    Okay, rant over. Love the sharp and smart Sammy Winchester so far.

    Comment by Lee — May 18, 2012 @ 5:33 pm

  7. I know this is a “Supernatural” forum, but boo on “Beauty and the Beast”.

    Comment by Chris — May 18, 2012 @ 5:55 pm

  8. Yep, just as you said, no rainbows at the end of this one!

    Comment by Rob — May 18, 2012 @ 5:59 pm

  9. And it ends like that really??????

    Comment by jack — May 18, 2012 @ 6:02 pm

  10. Loved this finale. The ending was perfectly and had an awesome creepy vibe that reminded me of the old Supernatural.

    And is it just me or is Jared’s acting getting a little worse? Overall he does a good job but whenever they show Sam looking worried or concerned, Jared really doesn’t sell it all that well, like at the end of the finale. He just looks so awkward lol

    Comment by James — May 18, 2012 @ 6:03 pm

  11. You igiots! That should have been a two hour ending! Going through withdrawals already.

    Comment by Chelese — May 18, 2012 @ 6:03 pm

  12. Ugh . . . . that was crap!

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 18, 2012 @ 6:03 pm

  13. The hell?

    Comment by jameshetfield — May 18, 2012 @ 6:03 pm

  14. Love this show so much! The finale was great…looking to the next season. When will it start?

    Comment by Cherilyn — May 18, 2012 @ 6:03 pm

  15. I thought it was awful. What a waste of a season and an extremely underwhelming finale. Ugh, I don’t think I’ll be watching next season.

    Comment by Jessica — May 18, 2012 @ 6:04 pm

  16. I must agree with you, Jessica! It was a horrible finale to an already horrible season! What the heck was that crap?

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 18, 2012 @ 6:08 pm

  17. Ah! Purgatory! And did Cas just abandoned Dean to the monsters? Cas the cowardly bastard as usual, and here I thought he was going to redeem a tad bit.

    The highlight was Sammy, he was sharp and smart when he questioned Crowley and examined the different scenarios. Of course I wished BOTH Winchester brothers were sharp hunters figuring out how to save the world, but as usual when Cas is around, Dean’s IQ goes down a few notches. Sigh, what happened to the badass smart hunter of seasons’ past. Poor Sammy, finding himself alone and confused in the end – Jared totally sold it as always, he always radiate the quite desperation without having to say a single word. Reminded me when critics and fans raved about Jared’s performance in last season’s finale. Jared always seem to close the seasons’ finales with emotional punch to the gut.

    Comment by Lee — May 18, 2012 @ 6:11 pm

  18. Well I can’t think of any bigger sticky situation than being stuck somewhere with Cas. Well maybe not, Cas did leave him.

    The episode was pretty crappy for a finale. Now that this AWFUL season is over and we’ve been beaten over the head with guest stars and all the writers’ political crap, can season 8 actually be about the boys now? Thanks.

    I have to say Dean going to purgatory was very predictable. It was only a matter of time before they try to match Sam’s time in the cage (and then the Samgirls and Deangirls can argue over who had it worse).

    Comment by Sara — May 18, 2012 @ 6:12 pm

  19. Wow! I hardly ever comment on this webpage, hope the regular folk on here don’t mind. This season finally was AWESOME! Eventhough I’ve always had my doubts about castiel I really grew to like him this season. I’m reading on facebook that Supernatural returns until October, I don’t think I can wait that long, **SPOILER** I want to see the outcome of purgatory, oh I hope dean makes it out and sam fights his way out of that lab and lives. Loved the shots of the impala: beautiful. P.S. I <3 Dean/Jensen

    Comment by Daniela I. — May 18, 2012 @ 6:13 pm

  20. Oh boy, I still don’t know what the hell I just watched. First Gossip Girl and now Supernatural. Looks like I won’t be watching either of these shows next season.

    Comment by Katie — May 18, 2012 @ 6:13 pm

  21. Actually, just to follow up that last…I’m glad they kept Castiel someone other than human through most of the series. Angels as mythological beings are not human. The fact that he is suffering the repercussions of his actions in a type of hyper-karma rather shows that no being great or small is beyond the laws of metaphysics. I hope they start winding back to the facet of the brothers’ lives that hinges on their ‘importance’ in this series’ world, and their overall relationship to ‘God’, or their innate powers, as I’ve never felt this was truly fleshed out or explained thoroughly. Bravo, hope the show never ends.

    Comment by Rob — May 18, 2012 @ 6:14 pm

  22. omg omg omg… are they going back to do what they had to scrap for season 4!!!?

    because wasn’t that when the writers strike happened and they had to nix sam’s darkside story and then dean went to hell so they needed a quick fix because they didn’t get a chance to explore sam’s darkside so in came angels.

    so now sam will be the one to break dean out of purgatory like he was rumored to have done for the 4th season! hopefully semi darksided because i LOVED that arc for him.

    so excited. i know people here aren’t and this finale wasn’t great by it’s self and obviously them trying to wrap up this poopfest of a season but if this is where they are going i am STOKED!

    because nothing makes me happier than protective sam. oh god please let it be protective sam with a now more understanding of the need for darkside sam dean thanks to his time in purgatory. pleeeaaaase.

    Comment by curls — May 18, 2012 @ 6:15 pm

  23. oh..nooo..i thought this was going to be a 2 hour season finale. Sooo frign fusterated I had my whole night planned around it. is that it or is there a 2nd half next week cuz I need to know. I will be ready n waiting for the next half if it exist..if not im gonna be one bored mama. still not sure how cass n dean wound up in purgatory but cass ditchn out is gonna create great drama n I cant wait too long to find out whats going to happen to dean.

    Comment by Crystal Dawn Hess — May 18, 2012 @ 6:15 pm

  24. I liked this finale much better than I thought! Though it helped to have low expectations once I heard that the dumbass angel was going to be in it. Not the best finale, mainly because the dumbass angel is in it but Bobby made up for it and his last goodbye. Sniff, rest in peace Bobby.

    @Lee, you’re so right, Sam “closed” the last couple season finales with the delivery of the human condition and WOW does he deliver! I loved how Jared portrayed Sam more and more every season, the man is too talented for words!

    Comment by Kathie — May 18, 2012 @ 6:17 pm

  25. I might be in the minority, but I didn’t like Sam at all in this episode.

    Comment by Jessica — May 18, 2012 @ 6:20 pm

  26. Seriously, I wonder how Sam is going to break Dean out of purgatory. Will he call upon his long dormant powers???

    I don’t think Sammy will go “dark side”, that’s been done to death (literally) already. Instead I wonder if Sam using his powers forces Dean to finally accept all of Sam because his powers were as much as part of Sam is.

    Oh, maybe Sam will use the AMULET to get Dean out!

    Comment by Kathie — May 18, 2012 @ 6:21 pm

  27. oh shoot i forgot about the amulet. if sam gets into purgatory and/or finds dean using the amulet as a guide i will cry. like straight up bawl my eyes out.

    Comment by curls — May 18, 2012 @ 6:26 pm

  28. Jessica, why? Sam wasn’t any different than the previous episodes except he was sharper than usual i.e. interrogating Crowley and recognizing the Bobby-possessed maid and stopping him from his vengeance spirit path. Sam was pretty darn heroic tonight (as was Dean, he delivered the death blow to Dick). After Dick’s death, Sam immediately said, “Where’s Dean!”, his first concern was for Dean.

    Comment by Kathie — May 18, 2012 @ 6:27 pm

  29. @28: I didn’t like him AT ALL. He was very off and he just irritated the hell out of me.

    Comment by Jessica — May 18, 2012 @ 6:28 pm

  30. Anyone else catch when Dick was holding the creamer and said ”I smell a promotion”?

    Comment by Tal — May 18, 2012 @ 6:34 pm

  31. I have to say I really dig Sam tonight, he was all kind of awesome. I just wished Dean was too, sorry to say I don’t remember much of Dean tonight, what happened to Jensen? It’s like he’s bored and phoning it in, though he did give some good emo in Bobby’s last scene, all three actors did. Season 7 was not a good vehicle for Jensen due to the too-long self indulgent pity parties the writers made Dean go through. In spite of that, I still enjoyed season 7 alot.

    Comment by LordAniline — May 18, 2012 @ 6:36 pm

  32. @29: Agreed! I didn’t care for Sam tonight either. He was getting on my nerves as well!

    Comment by Katie — May 18, 2012 @ 6:38 pm

  33. I’m thinking either God or Death may have to help Sam. I’m thinking Bobby will be back too.

    Comment by Tal — May 18, 2012 @ 6:38 pm

  34. I liked the finale, but there was a lot wrong with it. That doesn’t surprise me, because the whole season was without focus, pacing, and plotting of a coherent story, and so much was left unfinished that it never was possible to wrap it all up in 41 minutes. That said, this is the first finale in years that has left me looking forward to 8.01 (which JA will be directing). Maybe that’s because I know SG will NOT be back. Screw you, SG. You had your chance and you made a mess of it.

    I like the brothers separated and it looks like Sam will have to save Dean (I hope it’s not Cas that does it).

    The biggest glaring hit-you-in-the-face not necessary was Bobby’s emo goodbye for the second time this season only pointed out that they should have left Bobby dead with Death’s Door and never, ever put forth that stupid GhostBobby story. Absolutely nothing was contributed to the season with that storyline, as evidenced tonight.

    Then there was GhostBobby still trippin’ all over the country, disconnected totally from the flask. I feel bad for Jim Beaver that they made such a mess of his character.

    I guess archangels no longer protect prophets. Jesus Christ in the foothills, SG, you were right there during S4. You know this. 4.18 — look it up.

    Cas can again transport…but I guess he can only transport himself and not Dean out of Purgatory? Although I did like Dean going to Purgatory, I’m not quite sure why he went there.

    I hope Meg is gone for good. I’m very happy Crowley will be the nemesis next season. Love Mark Shepherd. Looks like Crowley will be joined by the alpha and some periodic Levi.

    I was disappointed that the Impala got so little attention this episode, and they wrecked her again, but she sure looked pretty and it was nice seeing her for 60 seconds. She’s still a pretty baby. Disgusted me that Meg was driving and not Dean, but at least there was a valid reason. How did the brothers get into Sucrocorp?

    If that one little scene between Dean and Cas means Dean has forgiven Cas and they are back to being BFF’s, I’m not very happy with that. Still, all of Dean’s other issues were just dropped, so I guess I’m not surprised at all. (And I still say Sam’s hellpain story was short-shifted, too, in favor of Cas’s story).

    Lastly, I guess Cas has had another transformation this episode, so I don’t quite know where he is. I know where I wished he was, but that’s not going to happen.

    Compare this one to the S1-3 finales, and it doesn’t measure up much, but for what the last two seasons have been, I’m okay with this one knowing that Carver can take this ending in a lot of different directions.

    Lastly, I thought Jensen had his game on tonight. Did I mention I am so very happy SG is gone?

    Comment by Sheri — May 18, 2012 @ 6:39 pm

  35. WTF? HOW DID THAT HAPPEN? My whole family watches and we were all watching and wondering what was going on . my husband was acting like a crzy 10 minuets after it turned off . Why did Dean end up on purgatory ? why did Cas leave him there ?

    Comment by cassandra — May 18, 2012 @ 6:42 pm

  36. @28, my guess is she wished the other brother was the smart, sharp, and empathetic one. Remember when Dean scold Sam for saving the boy from the alpha vamp in the last episode? WTF Dean? Dean has been “off” this season, in my personal opinion, and got more so in the last couple episodes to the point I don’t really remember Dean in the finale.

    Comment by LordAniline — May 18, 2012 @ 6:42 pm

  37. 36: No, that’s not why. I JUST DIDN’T LIKE SAM IN THIS EPISODE. Is that a crime. Sorry, not every one shares the same opinion as you.

    Comment by Jessica — May 18, 2012 @ 6:43 pm

  38. Does Sam even know where Dean is though? Did Crowley tell him? I can’t remember.

    I’m not at all interested in seeing Dean in Purgatory with a completely useless angel. That’s not my idea of entertainment. Why were they even zapped to Purgatory. Why wasn’t everyone sent there? Why did Crowley take Kevin? Am I supposed to care about Kevin? I don’t.

    At least Bobby was put to rest but he never should have been killed off in the first place. They could have just started using him as they did in the first two seasons: rarely.

    So Sam is all alone next year. Is Jared taking off more time to be with his kid? Why this unnecessary split yet again? How many episodes can we expect to see Dean and Cas dodging creatures in Purgatory before the show finds it’s footing?!?

    Sam didn’t annoy me in this episode. He behaved as he always does, IMO. If anyone was annoying, it was Castiel for me! Talk about useless and irritating. The one high point of the episode for me was Dean telling Cas to clean up the mess he made. And Isay that as someone who doesn’t hate Cas.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 18, 2012 @ 6:48 pm

  39. @37, well I JUST DIDN’T LIKE DEAN IN THIS EPISODE, and no, it’s not a crime not to share the same opinion but at least I try to explain where I’m coming from. You come off abit on the side of basing. Just my opinion of course and you don’t have to share my I JUST DIDN’T LIKE DEAN IN THIS EPISODE opinion.

    Comment by LordAniline — May 18, 2012 @ 6:49 pm

  40. 39: Well, good for you. Sam has been off this entire freaking season. He’s been boring, insipid and just plain old wallpaper. He’s useless and he came off useless in this episode. Sam is just pretty nonexistent in my opinion that he comes off as more of a nuisance on screen then anything else.

    Comment by Jessica — May 18, 2012 @ 6:52 pm

  41. Totally agree Lisa1. I don’t know why there’s talk about Sam (acting like himself as usual) as being annoying when I had to listen to Cas ramble about bees and monkeys. I’m glad he was able to tell Dean who the real Dick is…that was his one contribution despite all the screen time he had.

    Comment by Sara — May 18, 2012 @ 6:53 pm

  42. ITA Lisa1, Castiel was ANNOYING! Lordy please kill this useless thing once and for all.

    You reminded me of what Dean did tonight and I’ll need to amend my previous comments, Dean telling Cas to clean up his own fricking mess was The Dean, this is the hunter that Dean is supposed to be most of the time. Thank you, Lisa1, for reminding me of that scene, now I feel less annoyed by Dean in the finale.

    Comment by LordAniline — May 18, 2012 @ 6:53 pm

  43. Well it was nice blogging with you guys..but Iam skipping season 8 ..Castiel is coming back and I took an oath that if he returns Iam out.

    I Keep my promises. I will support the J’s in their careers but not see their tv show.

    I will keep up with their other projects and watch when news or interviews of them pop up.

    Good bye.

    Comment by ozzie — May 18, 2012 @ 6:53 pm

  44. @Ozzie: Agreed. I won’t be watching next season. To me, Dean and Sam’s characters are ruined and destroyed, as well as the brotherly relationship. No matter how much they try to repair it, it will never be the same. And then there is more of annoying Castiel, a character that has no place in the story anymore. Enough already.

    Comment by Jessica — May 18, 2012 @ 6:56 pm

  45. This was very hard for me. My BFF died just before the start of the season and as I watched the finale, her presence was sorely missed.

    I was very glad they finally did right by Bobby, but once again we were forced fed all season Dean’s impending breakdown and once again….nothing.

    I’ll probably have more to say tomorrow but tonight it just hurts too much.

    Comment by Lugilla Brown — May 18, 2012 @ 6:58 pm

  46. Why was Dean sent to purgatory when it was actually Castiel that used the God weapon to stab Dick?!

    This season absolutely sucked! I’m too invested to give up on now (Thank you, for no more Sera Gamble!). Bring on season 8!

    I bet Bobby is in purgatory with Dean.
    Did anyone else catch how they breezed over Cas saying all angels are probably dead….or in hiding? I wouldn’t be shocked if Sam befriends a hiding angel.
    Lastly, where does this leave the Lucifer storyline?

    Comment by B — May 18, 2012 @ 7:03 pm

  47. Ozzie, if Cas in only in the s8 for 5 minutes (for the premier) and he’s eternally stuck in purgatory, will you come back then?

    Agree with all that said Castiel was the most annoying thing with his inane talk about birds and honey and going yup, that’s Dick. The showrunners really need to finish off this boring, stupid, insipid, useless character. Castiel nearly ruined what used to make Supernatural great.

    KILL. Castiel. Now.

    The finale was fine, it definitely kept me on the edge of my seat so it did it’s job. It was kind of nice to see the old familiar faces of Bobby, Crowely, and Meg. The Levi storyline was boring but thankfully they didn’t dominate too much.

    Sam and Dean were in very fine form. I also agree with others that Sam/Jared stole the show and I felt he carried most of the story. I’m glad the writers had Dean kill Dick because it seems Dean haven’t been killing that many bad guys and I still can’t get over Dean getting on Sam’s case for saving the kid from the Alpha Vamp in the last episode, and now I wonder if that foreshadowed Dean going to purgatory because he didn’t even want to try to save an innocent child from the Vamp when Dean himself was turned into a vamp before and he should know better. Uh-oh, getting sucked into Supernatural again, and here I thought I was putting on a healthy distance. Oh well.

    Comment by Charlie — May 18, 2012 @ 7:06 pm

  48. Oh BTW what was that self serving crap with Misha Collins and his Pay it Forward Foundation?

    Did we really need a commercial staring the Attention Whore? Never mind people of faith have already done this for centuries, especially the Amish, who will drop what they are doing at the drop of a hat (no pun intended) to help out anyone, Amish or not.

    He has always annoyed me but now I just want to bitchslap that smug look right off his face.

    Comment by Lugilla Brown — May 18, 2012 @ 7:14 pm

  49. @Lugilla Brown, haha, I was thinking the exact same thing about the Attention Whore ala Misha Collins but at the same time felt bad about dissing a charity. Maybe MC is a nice guy but his demeanor always annoyed me, and the convention reports don’t help either. Similarly my sister’s boyfriend is a perfectly nice polite young man but I finally admitted that I simply do not like him or his snide know-it-all voice or his twitchy demeanor.

    Comment by Charlie — May 18, 2012 @ 7:23 pm

  50. I agree about the charity thing. I love that he does charity and support the idea but when the CW puts ads together like this it comes across as bragging and just promoting their stars. It doesn’t feel genuine. Most people who do charity don’t feel the need to boast about it on tv. It’s nice of him to do charity work though but we don’t need to see a whole commercial just trying to make him look good. It’s just publicity for the stars.

    Comment by Sara — May 18, 2012 @ 7:27 pm

  51. I actually thought Jensen did a great job this episode and Jared wasn’t giving his best performance. I didn’t think Jared delivered the tear for Bobby very well and the ending, frantic scene wasn’t that well done…but then it was so short, maybe I’ll feel differently about that after I watch the episode again. I just think Jared has been distracted with baby for a few weeks now…or it could be that his character has been all over the place this season. Who knows, it was a crap season.

    Yeah, Lugilla Brown, the Misha commercial offended me, too, especially since Misha has been all over the media giving interview after interview this past week. But that Ian so-and-so from VD had one, too, so I figure it’s the CW being socially conscious or something.

    I’m not happy Cas is back in S8, probably as a third cast member. His scenes with Dean were good, but the camera attention was definitely on Cas, with Dean literally in the background and Sam even more in the background…and that is the problem with Cas.

    Comment by Sheri — May 18, 2012 @ 7:30 pm

  52. Well, I totally loved tonight’s episode and thought that both J’s delivered. JA and JP were exception actors in their scenes. JA eyes are always so telling.And I will be glad to see those that are not going to be watching actually not watch and not comment anymore, it gets so tiring to read such negativity over and over. Some of it smacks of Trolling.

    And hello, Dean did the kill at the end. He did use Cas as a distraction, how is that useless? I just wish this episode had more time to it.

    I still love the show, thought the ending was inline with how SPN ends seasons. I imagine Dean and Cas got caught up in the wave length or whatever power that destroyed Dick and sent him to Purgatory. I’m hoping Cas didn’t abandon Dean but is looking for help. Yikes, it’s not just monsters there but ones that the Winchesters put there. This cliff hanger hit harder than the last few years. And all the people who wanted Dean to have a story, looks like he is going to have one, and I am so glad! I’m still kinda in shock.

    Comment by twinster — May 18, 2012 @ 7:31 pm

  53. No rest for the wicked it was not. It was well written and good by season 7 standards. Just glad this human eating monster crap is over. Hopefully it really is. Looking foward to what Carver can do. He did do mystery spot, afterall.

    Comment by katie — May 18, 2012 @ 7:34 pm

  54. And really? People complaining about MC’s spot about doing something good for people? Really? Now, I have read everything.

    Comment by twinster — May 18, 2012 @ 7:35 pm

  55. You need people need to quit saying bad things about Cas, And why would you quit watching the show because of him. Thats stupid. Its still a great show and it now has lots of potential with that finale. So quit whining and complaining about Cas. He is just one character in the show.

    Comment by Dillon — May 18, 2012 @ 7:36 pm

  56. I feel like I’m in the minority here, but I like Castiel. Sure, he’s been a bit useless this season but this season as a whole hasn’t been great.

    Looking forward to season 8

    Comment by Rachael — May 18, 2012 @ 7:39 pm

  57. Dillion, people can keep “saying bad things about Cas” because Cas did more bad things than all the monsters and demons of the entire series. In Cas own words, he “destroyed everything” and only now, only now is he acknowledging it and even he refused to fight or clean up his own mess, hence Dean’s bitchy speech at Cas. It was Meg who had to tell the brothers that Cas can finger the real Dick.

    Plus Castiel is the most insipid useless character that did alot of damage to the Dean character. I swear Cas left Dean’s brain behind in hell like when he left Sam’s soul behind in Hell.

    Comment by Charlie — May 18, 2012 @ 7:43 pm

  58. Loved the episode. Mad and delighted at the same time about the ending. But I always felt that they needed to develop purgatory a little more. I think this explodes the storyline, can’t wait.

    Comment by moriahskies — May 18, 2012 @ 7:44 pm

  59. @Charlie…I just watched last week’s scene with Dean, Sam, and the Alpha Vamp. It was Dean that stared down the Alpha to give up the boy. He asked how many other children he had, the vamp said just the boy, and Dean gave him the “stare”, and the Alpha Vamp caved. Sam may have asked about the boy, but it was Dean that got the Vamp to give in. There is nothing that even suggests that Dean didn’t want to help that poor child. Dean bashing I guess.

    Comment by twinster — May 18, 2012 @ 7:45 pm

  60. Ya Cas did bad things. But he apologized for those bad things and he took on Sam’s pain and sufferring from his time in hell. He has redeemed himself now.

    Comment by Dillon — May 18, 2012 @ 7:46 pm

  61. Next season cas gets deanout and dies doing it. Wouldn’t surprise me the writing has sucked since last season. They should get back to dean and Sam and keep cas.

    Comment by jack — May 18, 2012 @ 7:57 pm

  62. Dillian, Sam’s soul is damaged and frayed, Cas could not heal that. And who prolonged Sam’s suffering in hell in the first place? That’s right, Cas who even told Dean in season 6 to leave the real Sam in hell and let the soulless version survive. Cas barely apologized to Sam’s face and he hurt Sam who has only been kind towards him. Okay, I could go on and on, but I am glad that Cas took one Sam’s pain and suffering that Cas himself caused in the first place. Is Cas redeemed? Only a little bit because he still refused to clean up his own trainwrecks until Dean yelled at him.

    Comment by Charlie — May 18, 2012 @ 7:57 pm

  63. Wow for people who say they love the show you all sure do Bitch alot

    Comment by K. — May 18, 2012 @ 7:58 pm

  64. So sick of Castiel, it’s not even funny. I mean, what purpose does this character have on the show? Get rid of him already.

    Comment by Jessica — May 18, 2012 @ 7:58 pm

  65. @jack
    I doubt he will die. He should become a regular again.

    Comment by katie — May 18, 2012 @ 8:00 pm

  66. @LordAniline, no problem! My friend and I really liked that line. I was watching the show w/her, and we started shouting, “Yeah” when Dean was telling off Castiel for starting this whole mess in the first place! That was the best scene of the entire show, IMO.

    My friend and I both like normal Cas, but have zero use for this doofus Cas. I know it was supposed to be funny when he was talking about monkeys and honey, but I found it frustrating and irritating. The boys were discussing serious matters, and Cas was behaving like a moron. That’s not funny or comical to me; it’s annoying. Comic relief can be done better than that.

    @Jessica – They haven’t done much w/Sam this season outside of like 4 episodes. It’s not Jared’s fault that the writers refuse to give him anything to do. They had a great plot for Sam this year w/his hallucinations, and we got, IMO, TWO good episodes out of it – MTNB and HCW. We should have been seeing Sam’s struggle w/the hallucincations and to keep his sanity, but we didn’t. We all have our own opinion though. Sam/Jared was fine to me.

    Both JA and JP were fine. Jared hasn’t been “off” to me. He’s playing Sam like he always does. Someone said Jared didn’t cry for Bobby, but I didn’t see Jensen crying either. I thought both actors did a good job w/the scene, but that’s me.

    I think what people are noticing is the show has NO HEART. There’s just no heart to the show this year. There’s no emotion or feeling behind anything. All the other enemies the boys faced were personal, and there was meaning behind the fight. Find dad. Find the demon that killed Mom. Save Dean. Save Sam. Get Sam’s soul. Don’t vessel up. All these themes were personal, and I can’t explain it, but it was more meaningful. I think Sam’s sanity plot could have given the show its much needed “heart” this year, but the writers didn’t do there for whatever reason. This season was primarily pointless filler.

    Save Dean from Purgatory may give the show some heart next year, but I can’t say I’m looking forward to seeing Dean w/doofy Cas for half a season or the entire season. IMO, Dean and Cas play off each other well when Cas is normal, not this moron they’ve created.

    What I’ve noticed is

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 18, 2012 @ 8:00 pm

  67. BYE OZZIE!!!! Seriously you can get over your dramatic self.

    Comment by Julie — May 18, 2012 @ 8:01 pm

  68. @Twinster, hummm, I didn’t see that the Vamp “caved” but rather trading deals for deals. Sam insisted on saving the child and Dean backed him up. What bugged me was afterwards Dean got on Sam’s case after they left the Vamp lair about wasting time on getting the child away from Alpha Vamp. I couldn’t figure out why the writers would to that to Dean’s character who is usually the one who had a soft spot for endangered children, a sort of a holdover when Dean used to raise Sam when they were children. I wasn’t bashing Dean (at least I don’t think I was) but rather wondered the motives of the writers.

    Comment by Charlie — May 18, 2012 @ 8:04 pm

  69. … are people seriously deriding charities now? like i get that you may not like a character or actor but i think it’s particularly disgusting to deride any type of charity at all when so few people donate their time or money and so many are in need.

    like hate cas and dislike misha collins all you want but it seems very privileged and ugly to look down on charity work. even when done for screen time. cause i don’t think the people who now have a full belly and warm clothes care too much if it came from misha collins or some faceless anon donation.


    Comment by curls — May 18, 2012 @ 8:05 pm

  70. I hope they change Cas next season cause he’s been nothing but annoying this season. bring season 4&5 Cas back please <3

    Comment by Lori — May 18, 2012 @ 8:05 pm

  71. How about they get rid of Cas for good? Please and thank you.

    Comment by Jessica — May 18, 2012 @ 8:13 pm

  72. @69 curls, people weren’t deriding charities, well, most of them weren’t. I said myself I felt bad because it felt like I was dissing a charity simply because I did not like the self promotion of Misha Collins in that stupid commercial. Charities are fine, but wasn’t happy to see MC’s mug promoting it because it came off as self promotion, though I’m sure it wasn’t MC’s fault because he has no control over the marketing or the editing of the commercial. Given that MC barely had any jobs this season, it’s not difficult to imagine that he’ll do just about anything to put himself out there.

    Comment by Charlie — May 18, 2012 @ 8:14 pm

  73. You know what else irritated me . . . the constant “dick” jokes! Grow up, Writers! Grow UP!

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 18, 2012 @ 8:20 pm

  74. CASS IS STAYING PEOPLE GET OVER IT. And i agree that season 4&5 cass should be back, but only as a limited supporting character.

    Comment by Julie — May 18, 2012 @ 8:20 pm

  75. @jessica um how about No.

    @lisa1 I agree I swear I heard at least 5 “dick” jokes it was ridiculous.

    Comment by Lori — May 18, 2012 @ 8:23 pm

  76. Julie, you don’t know for certain if C-ass is staying so people shouldn’t have to get over it. And even if you heard it yourself from the writers and showrunners, they are notorious for changing their minds. Just look at the atrocious season 4 and 5, it was obvious Krikpe was making it up as he goes. So don’t make yourself the ultimate say-so because not even writers know for sure who is going and how is staying.

    P.S KILL. Castiel. NOW and FOREVER!

    Comment by Charlie — May 18, 2012 @ 8:25 pm

  77. God you people are predictable. LOL!

    Comment by Nico — May 18, 2012 @ 8:26 pm

  78. @Lori – wasn’t it ridiculous? Ugh!

    I also didn’t like the scene where Dick made that girl take off her dress. I don’t know. It just seem exploitative for no reason.

    She was clearly skinny, and she was wearing a sleeveless dress so they could have seen he injected her w/something.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 18, 2012 @ 8:28 pm

  79. Nico, you are so predictable. Your bashing of a certain actor starts in 3…. 2….

    Comment by Charlie — May 18, 2012 @ 8:28 pm

  80. Well, the final thread for an episode this season and the hatred flows as thick as ever!! Amazing.

    Will watch again tomorrow because tonight had my mind on family issues. But still focused enough on the episode.

    WAY too much Dick! WAY too much. Glad that ass is gone. Crowley sickened me as always- but I guess that is what he is there for. Meg was a waste. But then again there was no need for her to be on the show at all.

    Castiel, once again, a victim of horrible, horrible writing. Even I, who likes the character, don’t know what the hell is being done to him. Is he an Angel or isn’t he? Is he a threat or a joke? Is he an ally or a child? If I was to follow the writing I would have no idea.

    However I do have a brain and I do know the character is a true and loyal friend to Dean and Sam. And I know without any doubt that he did not “abandon” Dean in purgurtory. Hopefully now that the season is over some actual professional writers will take back the character and- since he is coming back next season- will give him back the persona he had originally and should still have.

    If you blinked you missed the Impala. They make a big deal of bringing back the music and racing it down the highway….and then they have Meg (not Dean) crash it into a sign. What a joke! There was never any reason to take the car out of the show in the first place and this is how it comes back? Come on! Just another stupid idea by a crew of creative failures.

    And then they kill Bobby off- again. After he almost killed Sam! What crap. What was the point of bringing him back in the first place? They could have had a valid “good-bye” scene between Bobby and the boys after he got shot- with much more emotion and meaning all around- and he would have been given the proper ending. Instead he (and the fans) are dragged through a crappy season just to try to leave us with a negative image of a character we have loved since his first appearance on the show. After the inane “Amy” crap, this handling of Bobby was the worst story line of the season.

    I liked Kevin but have no idea why Crowely took him. And it is amazing how easy it is to harm a prophet now after all the protection Chuck had just a couple of seasons back. More inane writing.

    Liked having Dean and Sam together through most of the episode. If it weren’t for the fact that the maid was so completely out of place outside Dick’s office in the middle of the night, I really would have wondered how Sam knew who she was. And I wasn’t thrilled with Sam going alone after Bobby there but he handled it well. I think Sam/ Jared looked “lost” at the end of the episode also. But he was supposed to. All of sudden he is standing in an exploded room all by himself- no Dean, no Cas, no Kevin, no Dick, no Crowley. If he looked “ok” with that then I would be complaining.

    Not thrilled with the purgurtory idea because 1) I don’t believe in it and 2) if I did believe in it, that is definitely not what I believe it would be like.

    But it as a cliff-hanger- and one that focused on the boys- not a supporting character. That is a step in the right direction for next season.

    Since the show is not coming back until late October- 5 months- this will be an agonizing long time to wait. But there is hope- Gamble will not be back and the boys will. As long as Jensen and Jared are willing to come back, so am I.

    Comment by SL — May 18, 2012 @ 8:28 pm

  81. @ Charlie…When Dean and Sam were going back to the motel, Dean was kidding around about the kid. He always acts like he doesn’t know what to do with kids, but we all know he’s a softy for kids. He wasn’t being serious, you can tell by the way JA delivered the lines. In the scene with the Vamp (I just watched it), Sam asks about the boy. Dean asks how many other children he has (calling him a creep). He stares down the Vamp, and the Vamp caves. The scene at the motel, he is just kidding around. There is no way Dean was going against Sam not to save that boy.

    Comment by twinster — May 18, 2012 @ 8:35 pm

  82. @SL “I do know the character is a true and loyal friend to Dean and Sam. And I know without any doubt that he did not “abandon” Dean in purgurtory.”

    Based on what? Cas had lied to and threatened Dean and Sam since season 4. Cas ABANDONED Sam in Hell after he knew about his big whopper of a mistake and discouraged Dean from trying to rescue Sam. Cas blew apart the only protection between Sam and Hell and refused to fix Sam out of spite towards Dean. When Dean fetched Cas to heal Sam and once Cas regained his memory, his first reaction was to run away and leave Sam to his death, which was precisely what Dean knew could happen and hence why he didn’t want to tell Cas his true nature in the first place. True and loyal friend? Sad sad standard. It’s easy to think Cas had abandoned Dean to fend for himself against the purgatory monsters when Cas had easily abandoned Sam to Lucifer.

    Comment by Charlie — May 18, 2012 @ 8:38 pm

  83. @twinster, I’ll take your word that Dean was only “kidding around”. To me Dean sounded annoyed and mad that Sam took the risk. Dean teased Sam so often that it’s usually very obvious when Dean is kidding with Sam, but not this time. It could just be me, it could be the lighting, it could be the volume control on my TV.

    Comment by Charlie — May 18, 2012 @ 8:43 pm

  84. Loved the way the episode ended…I believe that Cas will come back, hopefully the way he is cause he ads a comedic relief to the show, and I hope they don’t pull Dean out of Purgatory right away. I think something will happen to Dean, maybe he will become a monster or something not good, but I hope they have a good reason to pull him out. I loved the way Sam was left completely alone. Now he gets to know what true loneliness feels like. I am interested to see how Jeremy Carver will take the reigns next season. I thoroughly enjoyed this season, glad it’s over but looking forward to Crowley as the big bad in October.

    Comment by bluekaos21 — May 18, 2012 @ 8:43 pm

  85. Interesting Sl, about not liking Purgatory story line because you don’t believe in it. I don’t believe in hell, heaven, angels, ghosts, vampires, um, I guess I don’t believe in supernatural things, but I love the show. I just found that one comment kinda strange.

    Comment by twinster — May 18, 2012 @ 8:44 pm

  86. @bluekais21, you and I must be a rare breed here. I too enjoyed season 7. I must say though, Sam had a taste of loneliness when Dean went to hell, that is one thing unfortunately led him to Ruby. I too am excited to see what Carver has in store for us. I dearly hope that Dean doesn’t become a monster. I don’t think I could take it!

    Comment by twinster — May 18, 2012 @ 8:51 pm

  87. @85,Bluekoas21, Sam already knows what true lonliness feels like when Dean died and went to hell at the end of season 3. Sam tried and failed to open the devil gate to get Dean out of hell and afterwards Sam went mental and was turning himself into a monster via demon blood to avenge Dean’s death, which we find out later was exactly what the angels wanted.

    Comment by Charlie — May 18, 2012 @ 8:52 pm

  88. The best part about the finale is that now finally we can get rid of the likes of Jessica and Charlie commenting on this site! Good riddance!

    This finale was good. Not as good as s5 or s4 obviously, but good enough. I think it’s pretty interesting to see how they will handle it from now on. I just hope there won’t be too much levi’s in the next season. Sam dealing with bunch of demons is gonna be really interesting since obviously they are gonna be the baddies at least on the Sam end. Could Sam try to reawaken his powers by drinking demon blood? I hope they will explore that line of action!

    @ the news post: I doubt Azazel is gonna be in purgatory considering he’s a demon. Otherwise no idea how they are gonna handle the Dean end of things! I doubt Cas abandoned Dean either since he prolly can’t leave purgatory. If he could just leave and enter at will, why did he need to open the portal in s6 in the first place?

    Comment by muub — May 18, 2012 @ 8:52 pm

  89. Hmmm…Charlie, I will admit I had to put on CC for that last scene from last week (lol! my hearing must be going from old age). I think Dean wasn’t referring to saving the boy but dropping him off at a police station! Evidently, the police thought they had taken the boy and they had to escape themselves. I didn’t get that until just now. Now, I guess they will be dropping saved kids at a church or some other safe place. I guess I had been laughing my butt off with the “See you next season” line. And sorry for beating a dead horse…

    Anyhow…did I read that right, that SPN won’t be on until, gulp, October???? Wahhhh…

    Comment by twinster — May 18, 2012 @ 9:00 pm

  90. @muuh Amen! sick of these blatant bashers. targeting not only on the characters but the actors themselves.

    Comment by Lori — May 18, 2012 @ 9:01 pm

  91. Count me as another who also enjoyed season 7 alot. Also really liked season 6 and thought it was alittle better than season 7. Both season 6 and 7 were light years better than the angel-infected season 4 and 5, though there were several episodes (mainly angel-free ones) that I immensely enjoyed. Naturally season 1 -3 were the absolute best. So all in all, Supernatural is still one of the best TV shows out there!

    Comment by Lee — May 18, 2012 @ 9:03 pm

  92. Haha Twinster, I used to put on the CC all the time because I was deadly afraid of missing any important dialog. But ever since my tv crapped out and I got a new one along with the new remote control I can’t figure where the hell the CC went. I feel better at the idea that Dean was only kidding with Sam because it would be so out of character of Dean. Dean is already OOC whenever Cas is around and then Dean is more the Dean we love when he’s with Sam, so that post-Vamp Lair scene was strange (to me) and I was, “but Cas isn’t in the scene, why is Dean being unDean?” So I’ll stick with your story that Dean was just kidding with Sam.

    Comment by Charlie — May 18, 2012 @ 9:11 pm

  93. Cas these past few episodes reminds me of someone who has a mental disease. He took on Sam’s visions and memories of hell and it did something to Cas, much like someone who has Schizophrenia. He is supposed to be crazy and they did a great job at showing that. People who are diagnosed as ‘crazy’ see things different than us and talk about seemingly useless things.

    I do not think Cas abandoned Dean in purgatory, though where he went I do not know, but I honestly do not believe Cas would leave him to suffer in purgatory alone. I hope that this next season shows a shift in the storyline, hoping the guys will go back to ‘saving people and hunting things’ instead of all the melodrama of this season. I am hoping that Dean does stay in purgatory for more than 1 episode, just to see what happens. As I stated earlier, I think maybe something might happen to Dean in purgatory, like turn into a monster or something.

    All this bashing of Castiel is BS. I mean yeah he made some mistakes, which he was forgiven for because he kept coming back, and he is suffering those consequences by being stuck in a human vessel that is ‘crazy’. Misha was in fine form in the finale tonite.

    Comment by bluekaos21 — May 18, 2012 @ 9:12 pm

  94. Honestly, I’d be close to saying this was one of the best Supernatural season finales yet if it wasn’t for the super-lame ending. Why does this show have to be so predictable with their finales? Just for once I’d like to see something a little more original than one of the brothers being dead or trapped in another dimension-ie hell, purgatory, etc. Personally, I never liked the whole purgatory storyline from the get-go because it was extremely rushed and underdeveloped. Admittedly, seeing Dean and Castiel trapped in Purgatory was a bit chilling but sadly very unoriginal. At least the episode was good up til that point, though.

    On the plus side, it seems the boys are finally rid of most of the Leviathons. Glad to see the situation with Bobby was finally resolved and that he can finally be at peace.

    Comment by Mindy — May 18, 2012 @ 9:17 pm

  95. #87, Charlie, no I don’t think Sam has felt true loneliness before because back when Dean was in Hell, he still had Bobby to call on and Ruby to help him get revenge. I meant that this time there is no one, no Bobby, Dean, Cas, Meg, or anyone left to help him so he is completely alone.

    Comment by bluekaos21 — May 18, 2012 @ 9:17 pm

  96. @BlueKaos21: It sounds like you like Sam being alone. Nice.

    Comment by Katie — May 18, 2012 @ 9:22 pm

  97. Season 7 was better than last season but I think these last two seasons were ‘gapfillers’ for the back end of the series. Let’s hope that Carver can really do something great with the storyline in season 8 and really touch on alot of issues that have not been dealt with properly thoughout the series. I hope that the boys can get back to a normal life of hunting instead of being so moody and depressing as they have been these past two years.

    Comment by bluekaos21 — May 18, 2012 @ 9:23 pm

  98. I don’t care what anyone says, I will always dislike Castiel and NOTHING or NOBODY will ever change my mind.

    Comment by Jessica — May 18, 2012 @ 9:24 pm

  99. As season finales go
    1.No rest for the wicked
    2.All hell breaks loose
    3.Lucifer Rising
    4.Devils Trap
    5.Swan Song
    6.Survival of the fittest
    7.the man who knew too much

    Comment by katie — May 18, 2012 @ 9:25 pm

  100. Maybe Dean’s plight will bring the ole Cas back and not the mentally broken one we have now. I agree Bluekaos21, Cas is like someone who is mentally broken and is talking nonsense because of it. I dearly hope he didn’t abandon Dean in Purgatory. I’ve always liked Cas’s character and it hurts to see him so “out there”. I hope too that Dean is in Purgatory for awhile, perhaps that will give him a story line next year. But, I will just be crushed if he becomes a monster. Keeping my fingers crossed he won’t!

    @Charlie…Don’t feel bad, it took me a good 5 minutes or more to figure out how to turn my CC on, then I couldn’t find the button to turn it off later! Geesh!

    Comment by twinster — May 18, 2012 @ 9:25 pm

  101. Hmmmm….I think I would put up this cliff hanger in my top 3.

    Comment by twinster — May 18, 2012 @ 9:27 pm

  102. Bluekoas21, then Dean has never felt true loneliness either. When Sam died, Dean had Bobby, Lisa, and Ben (Cas was MIA and making deals with Crowely)

    While I’m pleased that Cas took on Sam’s pain and suffering that he caused in the first place, Cas still caused far more human death and destruction than all the monsters and demons of the entire series. It was almost shocking to hear Cas admit that he “destroyed everything”, but his reaction was to still to stick his head in sand and avoid cleaning up his own mess, hence the Dean yelling at him scene. And was Cas forgiven? Maybe by Sam because apparently Sam is the patron saint of doormats. Cas thinks he noted the first step toward forgiveness by Dean though Dean said only because they may die the next day.

    Comment by Charlie — May 18, 2012 @ 9:27 pm

  103. As season finales go
    1. All hell breaks loose
    2. No rest for the wicked
    3. The man who knew too much
    4. Survival of the fittest
    5. Swan Song
    6. Devils Trap
    7. Lucifer Rising

    Comment by Kathie — May 18, 2012 @ 9:32 pm

  104. And Jessica, don’t worry, no one is trying to change your mind about Cas. You have the right to not like him but don’t bash him. I like Cas, don’t love him like Dean or Sam, but I do like him. I don’t expect everyone to like his character, but the bashing of some of the characters on this board gets kinda out of hand sometimes (and some people actually bash Dean and Sam, but not as bad as it was before). And then people actually start bashing the actors themselves! We don’t know the actors personally to really have such hatred for them. So, as I said before, don’t worry, no one is trying to change your mind. And if you get to the point you can’t stand the show (as I think you are there), just stop watching and commenting on it.

    Comment by twinster — May 18, 2012 @ 9:35 pm

  105. A little new to this forum, but couldn’t help but wonder…haven’t we gotten hints in past eps that Dean and Sam’s mother is in purgatory? I think ghost-Ash had at one point mentioned she was “trapped” somewhere? Or am I remembering wrong?

    Comment by ILikePlatypi — May 18, 2012 @ 9:35 pm

  106. Hmmm…IlikePlaypi…Good question. I don’t remember that but you could be right. I might need to watch that ep again to check it out.

    Comment by twinster — May 18, 2012 @ 9:37 pm

  107. Jessica, I don’t like Castiel either and wish his character never came back at all. He just brings the show down and causes the relationship between the brothers to be rather lacklustre. I don’t know, Castiel, for me, has kind of ruined the brothers relationship.

    Comment by Katie — May 18, 2012 @ 9:39 pm

  108. Ahhhh…but Charlie, I think Dean may have felt lonely when Sam was off to Stanford for 2-4 years (there is some debate over that!). After all, Dean didn’t communicate with Sam for several years because Sam didn’t want him to. I well imagine he was lonely then. Seems like John left him to hunt alone quite a bit. And I think even though Dean had Lisa, and Ben, he was still lonely. You can have people you care about around you and still feel terribly lonely.

    Comment by twinster — May 18, 2012 @ 9:41 pm

  109. Agree with Jessica and Katie, Castiel brings down the show. Personally I feel Castiel ruined that used to make Supernatural great in the first place (though SPN is still very enjoyable) not only ruined the brotherly relationship but changed the whole original dynamic of the show when it used to be about the Family Business and saving lives. Admittedly it’s easy to scapegoat Cas, the writer and Krikpe didn’t have to go the route they did with the angel storyline.

    Comment by Kathie — May 18, 2012 @ 9:43 pm


    – why does Death help the boys?
    – what’s God’s problem? He obviously plays a huge role, find the right actor and introduce us to him already and just for fun make it NOT be chuck.
    – mother nature
    – father time
    – sandman
    – Olympians/Titans
    – Anubis
    – how do you get your soul
    – fix Cas find a good place for him or get rid if him.
    – Deans Amulet/ who made it, how, why?
    -pandora (Gabriel mentioned it)
    – enough of judeo christian myths, we get it, now expand on It
    -enough with prophets
    – give crowley his due or also get rid of him
    -more boys
    -just go ahead and bring bobby back, you already ruined his death

    – stop killing them, we already know they will find away to come back, we are no longer worried about their safety, hell Death is their pal.

    BOOM! there you go writers do something with that, or don’t just don’t repeate s6/s7. Ancient monsters that use cell phones, shoot guns and want to kill off skinny people? LAME. Make it less comedic and scarier. Remember when we first saw Raphael? Even that was breathtaking and scary.
    . With the Angels/Celestials mostly gone three Olympians want to take earth back- there you go. Anyone like the idea?

    Comment by Tal — May 18, 2012 @ 9:46 pm

  111. Thank God it’s over !!

    Season 7 was awful !!

    The season finale was awful !!

    The cliffhanger was awful !!–not to mention a redux of season 3’s ending.

    Season 6 was better!!

    Comment by JJA — May 18, 2012 @ 9:47 pm

  112. But Twinster that’s still not “true loneliness”, Dean may have felt lonely but Sam was still alive and he could have communicated or drop by for visit. And what about Sam getting kicked out of the family home without any means of support? San would have felt really lonely and still did at Stanford (he felt he didn’t fit in). That is lonely but again, not “true loneliness.”

    I do think when Sam died the first time, Dean felt that “true loneliness” because he told Bobby to let the world be destroyed.

    Comment by Charlie — May 18, 2012 @ 9:49 pm

  113. Twinster–ah, my bad–Ash had said he’d looked for Mary in heaven (since he’d gotten adept at moving around it), but he hadn’t been able to find her. I think I’d taken that as pointing to the idea that she was trapped somewhere else like Purgatory.

    I suppose it would be an interesting plot point, but maybe too long gone.

    Comment by ILikePlatypi — May 18, 2012 @ 9:49 pm

  114. @JJA – You’re darn right Season 6 was better. It gets a bad rep on these boards, but I quite enjoyed it. It was much, much better, IMO, than this crappy season we got.

    Season 7 is the WORST season of Supernatural ever – IMO.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 18, 2012 @ 10:07 pm

  115. Huh.

    Not quite sure how Dean and Castiel got into Purgatory. Also, I couldn’t understand Crowley’s speech at the end. What did he say? I couldn’t make it out.

    Also, Dick dies, but the other Leviathan are still alive? I don’t get it. They become “just another monster”? Uhhh they were already “Just another type of monster”. Are they still out there and just as hard to kill?? I don’t understand.

    I really didn’t understand much this episode. How did Dean get to Purg? Why are the Leviathans still alive? Why did Castiel seem like his normal self again? WHy does he keep changing?

    And as Sheri pointed out, WHY wasn’t an Arch Angel protecting Kevin? He IS a prophet. The moment he came into contact with ANY threat (Demons, Dick, whatever) he should’ve had an Arch Angel ready to smite everyone. IS it because there ARE no more Arch Angels? WHat about Metatron?

    I just am so very very cnfused, and if someone can help me out, I’d appreciate it.

    Jeremy, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE fix this show.

    P.S. For those of you claiming you are going to sit season 8 out, I don’t really understand your reasoning. Man, Supernatural fans are SOOOO FUCKING EXTREME. It’s actually really really scary how extreme some of you are. It’s just fucking t.v. Jesus.

    Comment by Jeff — May 18, 2012 @ 10:12 pm

  116. I’m just hoping those who keep bashing the show, who keep saying how horrible it is, actually stops watching it and commenting on it. And, I actually enjoyed this season and last season. Not as much as say, season 1-3, but I did enjoy it.

    ILikePlatypi: hmmm….perhaps Ash just hasn’t found Mary yet. Heaven is a big place, and he really hasn’t been there all that long.

    I’m really looking forward to the next season and seeing how Sam will try to get Dean back. Of course, right now, he has no idea where Dean is.

    Comment by twinster — May 18, 2012 @ 10:26 pm

  117. Well, Jeff, if at the end of the day, some are no longer entertained by what they see, then I can understand why they’d stop watching.

    This season has been a disaster, an utter train wreck! Some have not been pleased for a while so they may have reached their breaking points.

    I’ve done it w/shows I used to love like Nip/Tuck or Rescue Me. I tend to stick w/my scifi/horror shows until the bitter end (i.e., LOST), and I plan to watch Season 8 of Supernatural. Though if it ever gets to be more annoying than entertaining, I will definitely shut it off.

    I didn’t like this episode. I didn’t like many of the episodes this season, but most were entertaining on some level. This one was not, IMO. The episode before the Alpha vamp one was also not entertaining on any level to me. If more episodes are like this one or the one w/the girl and the dragon tattoo, then I might find myself tuning out.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 18, 2012 @ 10:34 pm

  118. Heres what I think Jeff. Cas said that all the Angels are dead which I think will turn out to be false next season. But that is why their was no Arch Angel. The other Levi are going to be pretty unimportant from here on out. Without their leader all you have to do is splash them and cut off the head. Thats easy for the boys. Next season may be the last (I hope not), so I expect God to finally show up. I think Crowley will be the big concern because eventually the guy must go and who better to take him out then God. With that said, this was a good season but not great. I did like the finale though. This show has evolved so much over the years it is mind boggling. There have been so many great characters that died. I actually feel the loss of them and its just a show. Cant wait until October. I wish there was a show on tv that could hold me over.

    Comment by Jon — May 18, 2012 @ 10:44 pm

  119. Actually Jon, Cas didn’t say all the angels were dead, just that all of his garrison where the prophet was supposed to be taken was dead or hiding.

    There were no arc angel to protect him as all the arc angels are dead as there was only 4 of them. Lucifer, Michael, Raphael and Gabriel. Two of them are locked up in hell.

    Comment by muub — May 18, 2012 @ 11:35 pm

  120. Jeff, Dean and Cas got sucked in with Dick’s power imploding. Watch the ep again, man.

    The other Leviathans aren’t supposed to die just because Dick died. They have no direction, so Crowley told Sam to hurry and kill them off before they can regroup. They’re soldiers without a general right now.

    There are no more archangels alive. Only the regular ones are left to protect Kevin, and Leviathan can kill angels – that’s why God locked them in Purgatory to begin with, because they won’t play nice with others.

    Comment by Kim — May 19, 2012 @ 12:58 am

  121. Some people didn´t pay attention to what cass said. Levi´s can kill angels, the angels are hiding. Kevin was under the protection of angels, but the Levi´s killed them.. So of course there are no angels around him because they cant do anything to protect him.. Why do people hate on Cas so much? Did you all forget what Sam did? He brought on the apocolypse, trusted a demon over Dean.. He is forgiven, so why not Cas? Just like Sam, Cas was only doing what he thought was the right thing to do, saving the world. The last scene I had the feeling Cas was normal again, I really hope he is because I didn’t like the crazy part. Maybe we get to see some old enemies in purgatory, I hope so. I cant remember who, but someone said maybe we see lilith and yellow eyed in purgatory.. Aren’t demons going to hell? But it would be good to see some people they have killed.. Curious to see what happens in purgatory with Cas and Dean, and what Sam will do.. Go after Crowley? Find someone to work with? Open up Purgatory? He knows how to do it.. Maybe Death will make an appearance again, to make an eclipse.. I dont know. Crowley meant that the levi’s have no leader now, so they’re easy to kill. I do hope we get to see Death and Lucifer in season 8, really liked their characters! See you all next season!

    Comment by Robin — May 19, 2012 @ 1:02 am

  122. @Kim, good to see there are more people that payed attention. Also, I said that it would be nice to see some old enemies in purgatory, but I got the feeling we will see Dick Roman in purgatory to, since they went there at the same time.

    Comment by Robin — May 19, 2012 @ 1:29 am

  123. The Levi have Biggerston restaurants, a food supply that is already contaminated (the Gas N Sips from the last episode), research centers, the Sucrocorp lab fully in tact with the creamer already produced, and all the top posts in government and the military (i.e., the ones at the round table who know the whole plan), so the Levi story was not satisfactorily concluded. I was hoping it would be, as I don’t find the political slant the season interesting at all.

    Crowley knew more than Cas about what would happen when Dick was killed. Even if he is looking for the other two God tablets, I don’t know why he would need the prophet to read them, since he seems to already know the whole story…and the audience only knows there are two other tablet rocks. We don’t know if that was a throw-away line or whether those two tablets have an significance or not.

    Cas seems to think Dean has forgiven him. I don’t know if that is supposed to be true or not. From JA’s facial expressions, I didn’t get that Dean has. Even if Dean has, I haven’t. He still murdered a thousands of people and thousands of his brothers and sisters. I have no idea if the forgiveness story is still dangling, but I’m assuming the Dean is hurt by Cas is just another dropped storyline.

    Demons are supposed to go to Hell, monsters to Purgatory, and humans to either Heaven or Hell (where they turn into monsters), so we can assume that Meg is back in Hell, but we can’t assume she won’t get out again. I’m hoping we’ve seen the last of Meg. Sort of a pathetic ending for a demon that has caused the brothers untold grief and trouble, but I hope to never see her again.

    There was a lot that could have been done with Meg’s character, but this frenemy/Cas girlfriend crap this season was another of the ruined characters SG was so good at doing.

    I was really disappointed with the 60 second reintroduction of the Impala and only seeing Meg driving her. Hopefully, the car will be used next season…but until Dean comes back, I don’t know how it’s going to get fixed. Poor Dean. He just got her fixed up, too.

    I was left with no idea what storyline they are going to give to Sam next season. He’s simply up-top and alone. I just hope it’s not another earth-shaking ‘what’s wrong with Sam’ thing again. Please let the character move on, Jeremy.

    Cas flitting out of Purgatory at the end was an odd move. I don’t believe Cas will leave Dean in Purgatory alone, but I hope that Dean is not just teamed up with Cas all the time in S8. Can’t say I’m excited about Cas as a regular next season. What I don’t know is which character Cas is now. He’s nuts in one scene and seems totally back to normal the minute Dean ‘forgives’ him.

    I don’t know if putting Dean in Purgatory is another bunch of bullcrap Dean baiting or if Dean will actually have a storyline next season. Since he hasn’t had in 7 years, I’m not going to get all excited and speculate about Dean in Purgatory. Carver has a reputation of giving all his characters a story, so I’m in a wait-and-see, but don’t get all excited mode.

    Basically, what I got from the finale is that Jeremy can pretty well take the show in any direction he wants. I think that’s a good place to start.

    The best part is knowing that SG can’t possibly screw anything else up. I was willing to give her a change, and really hoped she would succeed. But with a two-year record to evaluate, I believe she was a total disaster, totally incompetent as a showrunner, threw away many, many opportunities for good storytelling, and definitely not a fit with the horror/drama genre. She needs to stick with erotica, dark fantasy with very young actors.
    Goodbye, SG. So glad you are gone.

    Comment by Sheri — May 19, 2012 @ 3:18 am

  124. Crowded finale: Meg, Crowley, the Impala, Bobby, Dick, the Prophet, Cas, Dean, and Sam. Bobby gets a snippet of a sendoff, the Impala for 30 seconds, Dick multiplies and is killed, Crowley in and out of the plot, Dean and Sam in short conversations without any emotional connection at all to keep the multiple plots and counter plots explained. The featured character is Castiel. His humor is front and center and his character evolves from silly goof-ball to reluctant hero. Mostly it seemed a promotional bit (including a CW profile) for Collins’ return as the third star of the series. Even the publicity for the episode featured Collins.
    Sure is looking like season 8 will be a remake of early season 5: Dean-Castiel together and Sam in a sidebar role. Don’t know why the powers that be would go there; the first 5 episodes of season 5 lost almost a million viewers who have never returned. Jared seems to agree with that assessment in quoting the finale as setting up the possibility of repeating his separate role in early season 5 episodes as model for 8. At least for me this is not good news. I really watch for Dean-Sam not Dean-Castiel. And, I like Dean the hunter, not Dean the straight man to Castiel’s humor or Dean the reactor to changes in Castiel’s character.
    Didn’t enjoy this one. Now the helpless mortal Dean is trapped in purgatory for plenty of Dean-Castiel episodes while Sam I guess frets and moans about his loss. Maybe Sam will get to drive the Impala at least.
    Don’t want to be too negative. I’m pleased for a season 8, and very pleased Pedowitz moved SPN to Wednesdays, a clear sign he appreciates SPN and is willing to reward it with an upgrade to real primetime status. But the finale left me believing Carver (who must have had influence here) sees Castiel-Dean as the real stars for the future of SPN. Hope I’m wrong; I certainly have been before.

    Comment by CaseyT — May 19, 2012 @ 3:59 am

  125. CaseyT: Hope you are wrong also. I want the show to be focused SOLELY on Dean and Sam. That is what this show is about. Everyone else is secondary and should never trump the main characters. This was a season where the two main characters (and their portrayers) were made into supporting characters/actors on their own show. And- for me- this is why this season is a failure. When you have to squint your eyes and raise the volume to be able to see the stars and hear the few words they speak, well, there is a major problem with the show.

    So I truly hope that Castiel is a supporting character in the new season and makes about 3-4 appearences throughout the season and that is it. I like the character very much (and I like the actor) but this show is not his and should never be written or promoted as such.

    The Dean-Sam-Castiel trio did not work for the show. It did work in a few episodes (and it can work that way again) but for the show it was a failure and it definitely took away from the main heart of the show. I believe in a good supporting cast and I feel Bobby and Cas fit those roles perfectly. But the idiotic writers killed off one and dumbed down the other- and all at the expense of the two main characters.

    So I hope you are wrong and I am going to be hopeful that the horrible mistake of season 6 and the failure of this season will not be repeated. I don’t want another long seperation story for Dean and Sam and another ridiculous and unnecessary religious theme for a show that is based on the “supernatural”- which for me means nothing about religious beliefs and stories. I want the boys back on Earth fighting SN creatures of lore. There are plenty good stories to be written and I am hoping that Carver and his crew will seek those out and bring back that element of the show which has been missing for some time. I am glad that Jensen is grateful for another season and even said he would like to do more. As long as he is interested I have to believe that he and Jared will do their best not to let their show sink any further than it has been allowed to the last two seasons.

    Comment by SL — May 19, 2012 @ 4:47 am

  126. I’ve never commented before but I enjoyed the finale….It sure hasn’t been my favorite season overall wit the likes of SG being involved but I love the show, faults included. I hate when Sam and Dean are apart but it does give their characters a different appeal, a certain growth that only can be achieved through individual stories–but in the end they always come back together. And after all they’ve been through, to hell and back quite literally, a change of scenery with purgatory and an awesomely prospective new showrunner I believe only greater things will come when they do find each other again. Instead of damaging their characters I think the next season will strengthen them.

    I have to say I adore Cas, and I love the relationship he has with Dean. But in the end this is a story about Sam and Dean, monster hunting brothers. I think even with Cas the show is still that, but Cas gives another dimension to the characters of Dean and Sam…and what’s not to love about that? Just my opinion. I’m psyched about the new season and can’t wait for the brothers to be reunited and how they figure out how to get there.

    Comment by Nikki — May 19, 2012 @ 5:16 am

  127. I liked it! But then again I might be in the minority, I still liked the whole season, and cannot wait to see what season 8 brings! A bit Wow! to the ending, and am anticipating a bang up premier for next season. The whole Dean and Cas in purgatory may be a multi episode arc instead of getting them back right off like Dean returning from Hell in season 4. That would be awesome! Hoping for a great story for the first episode of next season!

    Comment by Lucy — May 19, 2012 @ 5:29 am

  128. CaseyT, I fear you are correct. Like I’ve written elsewhere, I never signed up to watch the Dean/Castiel show w/a side of Sam.

    And I don’t dislike or hate Castiel like so many do here. I like Castiel fine. I’m certainly not fond of this new doofy Cas, but normal Cas is okay w/me. I hate this new personality Cas has; it’s irritating and frustrating rather than comical and funny. If Dean’s dodging creatures in Purgatory, am I supposed to be lauging when Cas makes a stupid, silly, pointless comment? I’m not laughing. I don’t want to see Dean and Cas’s wacky adventures in Purgatory while Sam’s topside doing nothing.

    Most viewers love the brothers together, not apart, but this show seems determined to keep these characters separate. I don’t know why. The show works so much better when the brothers are together. They are the “heart” of the show, but the writers don’t get that.

    I fear Sam will be pushed to side next year in favor of a Dean/Castiel pairing. Again, I don’t hate Castiel. I like side characters, but the main draw for me is Sam/Dean. I have no interest in seeing Dean and Cas spend half a season in Purgatory. That just does not seem like it will be entertaining to me.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 19, 2012 @ 5:29 am

  129. If Cas added another dimension to Sam and Dean, I wouldn’t be so against having him in the show; but he doesn’t. Dean is dumbed down, Sam stands mute in the background with his arms folded, and Cas is highlighted. It’s been that way for the past two years.

    Quite frankly, I’m to the point of cringing every time I hear Misha’s name mentioned.

    Personally, I wouldn’t mind both brothers interacting with support characters, but not when they are arguing and/or split up. Interacting with different support characters while both working a case would be fun, and there are so many ways of doing that to where the brothers are not diminished in their own show. Even if they are bitching at each other, a support character showing some insight into that argument from ‘reading’ the two of them or from the (supposed) closeness of the two of them would be interesting. That will never happen with Cas in the mix. Misha is a media w**** and the show is running with that. Seriously? Misha making a producer’s promo. Misha giving three interviews in one week. Cas separated in Purgatory with only Dean. Dean just instantly forgiving the betrayal and the hell he put Sam through. Sam instantly forgiving Cas for what he did to him and for the hurt he caused Dean.

    I am so over anything I had found interesting in Cas in S4. His story ended there and he should have gone back to Heaven, never to be heard of again. The only thing I am disappointed in about S8 is that Cas is going to be around — probably in every damned episode.

    Comment by Sheri — May 19, 2012 @ 5:36 am

  130. Well, if we are to have Cas in the next season, here’s hope ‘Cas’ returns and not Fruit Loop.

    They should be able to find a way to make the character work. Right?

    Perhaps – limit his powers to only being able to heal injuires inflicted by evil, be unable to restore dead to life, have him be responsbile for rounding up and killing ALL the remaining Levi’s, have him aide other off screen/never heard of before hunters, (thereby making him not instantly and always available should the brothers call) allow him to blink (teleport, whatever it’s called) in and out but be unable to blink anyone else.

    Don’t even get me started on Bobby. Grrr….
    Meg? – Meh
    Sheriff Mills – Thumbs up!
    Crowley? – Why not?
    Occasional guest star? – Guess we’ll have to deal.

    As I’ve voiced before: from the boys; more action, more suspense, beat ‘em up, blow ‘em up, knock ‘em down, kick ‘em in the ass, give ‘em a shot gun blast, race that car, chase that villian, throw a punch!! Oh, how I could go on!!

    Less, please, much less – dreary, mopey, woe-is-me.

    Comment by Beanie — May 19, 2012 @ 5:42 am

  131. Sheri–if that happens I’ll give up. I too did not sign up for 7 seasons to see watch Castiel/Dean. A guy and his angel is a totally different show, a cute fantasy series for 15 year olds.

    SL–we are in complete agreement.

    Fun exercise:
    As season finales go:

    1.Devils Trap, surprise and dramatic ending, and back when the possibility of death (for the series or characters) had meaning. Still remember the impact of that 18-wheeler.

    2. Lucifer Rising, By far the most frightening for the brothers but they were back together

    3. Swan Song, apocalypse ending (or thought so at the time), Krepki’s departure

    4. All Hell Breaks Loose, if you take part I and part II as a finale, this would be my number 1.
    Never has the series had two back to back episodes in which Jared and Jensen were so good or which wrapped up such great storylines as the chosen children and the Yellow-eyed demon. The end also had them resolved to keep hunting and fighting evil since cancellation was a real possibility.

    5. No Rest For The Wicked, Dean gone to hell, Sam left alone–short season, too many unresolved plot points, but Jensen was great

    6. The Man Who Knew Too Much, You don’t get a bigger role than God and Collins gets it; Sam part good; Dean bystander to both

    7. Survival of the fittest–Dean gone to purgatory, Sam left alone, Castiel the central role (Been There, Done That: see 5 and 6 above.)

    Comment by CaseyT — May 19, 2012 @ 5:45 am

  132. I loved the finale. loved everything about it. I think it’s perfect that the brothers are apart and that Dean finally gets a storyline on his own that doesn’t involve holding Sam’s hand all the time.Also perfect Dean/Castiel scenes. Very emotional. I honestly don’t get why so many people on this board hate Castiel, because everytime I go on tumblr and other sides there’s nothing but praise for his character. And rightfully. From the comments I read, it seems like people are just butt-hurt that Dean has a friend who cares about him outside of his co-dependent relationship with his brother. And Dean deserves it. Also why the hell are people painting Cas as some sort of monster. He did absolutely EVERYTHING for the Winchesters. He died for Dean again and again. Sam actually brought down the apocalypse and beat the shit out of his brother, but duh, people seem to forget that. Hypocritical in my opinion. For me this show is long past the point of being just about Sam and Dean. Because how many seasons can we get with repetitive storylines (aka Amy)? Nothing about the brothers’ relationship is new. Nothing. They need other characters to interact with, Purgatory is perfect to establish two independent characters. Sam and Dean need that. Also imagine all the scenes we will get with Sam and Jody, other demons, perhaps Charlie and new friends he can make to help save Dean and Cas.
    And I’m super excited to get more Dean/Cas scenes and perhaps even Dean scenes with all the monsters he has killed in the past. Season 8 is gonna be great. Haters gonna hate.

    Comment by Carolina — May 19, 2012 @ 5:52 am

  133. to all of you who’s talking about Jared’s acting being bad on this episode, will you calm down, what the hell!! don’t forget this episode was filmed when Thomas was first born and i’m sure Jared was tired because of his “baby time”, you should be thankful that he even left his new-born baby, you only think of the show and the episodes not the actors, they have their own life you know…and besides it wasn’t that bad, what the hell kind of fans are you? thinking that Jared’s, Jensen’s and Misha’s life is ALL about SPN!!!!

    Comment by Lana — May 19, 2012 @ 6:06 am

  134. Anyone else got a sense of dejavu?? Was so dissapointed about dean in purgatory. I read a couple of spoilers yesterday where the J’s both hinted at being seperated next season and thought geez are they really going to send 1 to purgatory/hell/heaven? No surely not, it’s been done before but that didn’t stop them. I have been watching since day 1 and will stick with the show but season 7 will be my least favorite season. I do really hope they can pull it together next season

    Comment by Tickerleeshi — May 19, 2012 @ 6:31 am

  135. I’ll play, CaseyT:

    1. No Rest for the Wicked
    2. Devil’s Trap
    3. All Hell Breaks Loose, I & II
    4. Lucifer Rising
    5. Survival of the Fittest
    6. Swan Song
    7. The Man Who Knew Too Much

    Comment by Sheri — May 19, 2012 @ 6:45 am

  136. Carolina@132 What people forget is that Dean also played apart in starting the apocalypse. He broke the first seal. The first seal had to break for all of the others to be broken, so that is a tie in my opinion.

    This was my least favorite season. I didn’t think season six was that bad. I liked souless Sam, wish we could have seen more of what he did during that time.

    I also liked the idea of the Lucifer visions, but it was an idea that was just dropped. I still don’t understand why Sam was only seeing Lucifer and not Michael, after all Michael was in the cage too. Another story that was not fully developed.

    My apoligies to the actors who played Lisa and Ben they did great jobs, but domesticated Dean just did not work for me. I feel Dean, even though he promised not to, would have spent the majority of his time trying to get Sam back.

    I don’t like the brothers apart, but am willing to see what Mr. Carver can do. To the people who stated earlier in these posts that they are done with the show, well their loss. Still the best show on tv in my opinion.

    Comment by mj — May 19, 2012 @ 6:45 am

  137. Dean, since age 4, was with John while John monster-hunted. He grew up on the road, hunting with John (Sam got a break when he went to college with plans to get out of the life and be “normal.”)

    Dean hunts and travels on his own, too. Then Sam and Dean hunt for Dad. They hunt for yellow eyes. Dean goes to the spirit world (and talks to Sam via the ouiji board) and gets back into his body only because of John’s deal.

    Dean goes to Hell. Dean comes back from Hell. Both Dean and Sam go to Heaven. Both Dean and Sam come back from Heaven. Apparently, according to Ash, it’s a pretty regular route for them.

    Dean goes back in time and meets his young mom. More than once. Dean goes farther back in time to the days of Samuel Colt. Dean goes halfway back in time and meets Eliot Ness (all the while rocking that fedora!!).

    Dean and Sam even go to Scotland, which is nowhere near the back roads of Americana and has nothing to do with exploring urban legends and myths of Americana.

    Dean goes to purgatory.

    Is Dean the original travelin’ man?? With Sam in second place and catching up?

    Comment by bestshowfan — May 19, 2012 @ 6:49 am

  138. Dang, wonder what happened to my post? I was typing away and it disappeared! Gotta stop lounging when typing!

    Lana: I agree with you, Jared’s acting wasn’t bad tonight. I thought he did very well as did Jensen. Others were saying Jensen was off to as well, not just Jared.

    Carolina: I do get why people are unforgiving of Cas and really don’t like his character anymore. They won’t ever forgive him for killing thousands of humans and angels while he thought he was god. I still like his character and hope he can find forgiveness from the boys (looks like Sam may have, but Dean is still sitting on the fence). I’m hoping he comes back to normal next season. And you are right, people who hate the show are always gonna hate the show.

    I also had a thought that perhaps Cas didn’t leave willingly in Purgatory. Who knows what Crowley is up to? I’m sure he’d love to see Dean by himself in his part of the world.

    I’m going to watch the whole season 7 next weekend with my sister (she hasn’t seen it yet). Perhaps I will get a different perspective on it watching it straight through.

    Kim: I mentioned that way back in posting that Dean and Cas got caught up in the blast, wave length or whatever energy occurred when Dick was destroyed. I don’t have to watch again to get it, I thought it was pretty clear. As soon as the commercial break was over, I was asking “Where is Dean?”, before Sam did because I had a feeling that he was caught up in the blast before the commercial break came on, I just didn’t know where he went at the time. Totally was shocked where he ended up and will be biting my nails until (did read right?) October.

    Comment by twinster — May 19, 2012 @ 6:53 am

  139. This show has NOT grown beyond its original premise of two brothers. hunting monsters together, Carolina. That is the show.

    If you don’t like Sam and want him gone from the show, that’s fine, but not everyone feels that way. Some of us want to see the brothers truly together again fighting evil.

    As I said, I don’t dislike side characters, but I didn’t sign up for the Dean/Castiel show just like I didn’t sign up for the Sam/Ruby show. Side characters are fine, but I’m actually not interested in seeing Dean with Castiel or other characters all year in his own plot while Sam is off all year in his own plot.

    Maybe I’d be less annoyed with it if I felt the brothers had a bond this year. They’ve seemed distant all year – more like business partners than brothers. I haven’t felt that closeness between them expect in like two episodes out of 23. They haven’t had any chats this year, very few close moments — all the heart was removed from this show, so pardon me for not being excited to see yet another season where Sam and Dean are apart and doing their own thing.

    I want them together! I certainly don’t think the show has moved beyond its original – two brothers in a car, hunting monsters.

    Do they need other characters with whom to interact? Sure, but they are still the heart of the show, IMO. I don’t think the show is as good when the boys are separated for long periods of time.

    And if they stick to canon and Sam’s MO, I don’t see him spending lots of time builiding relationships w/Jodi Mills or Garth or anyone else. If they must separate the boys, then I hope we get to see Mystery Spot Sam. That, IMO, is more in line w/the character I know Sam to be.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 19, 2012 @ 7:03 am

  140. too many comments to read everything. don’t have time today-but for the question about why dean ended up in purgatory. that was part of the contract between crowley and dick. infact the shot of the contract was right at that point. you saw dean winchester’s name in the contract. i dont have dvr so i don’t know exactly what it said but that would make sense.

    as for the finale-too crowded. too rushed. sacraligious when you have the return of the impala but there is no dean reconnection with her. and you have meg driving her. but that is par for the course with sera.

    as for dean and cas in purgatory. i say big whip!! if dean was there by himself then i would be like WOW OMG-dean is going to have to use all of his hunting prowlness to stay alive in purgatory and he is going to have to think fast on his feet. but because cas is there. hmmph-he’ll save the day as usual. he’ll save deans ass yet again. gawd such promise they let slip thru these spn writers.

    somewhere i read -wouldn’t it be nice if sam saved dean by using the amulet?? that would be awsome. anybody think that would happen?? with cas in the picture??? i don’t think so. but it would be awsome.

    as finale’s go-too busy, to crowded, not enough sam and dean yet again. and too much cas as usual. but i was expecting that being sera wrote it. well i will be watching season 8 in hopes we get better arcs -a dean arc dammit!!- and less cas.

    did i say i absolutely loathe the destiel referances as well. gawd sera makes me sick. go glad she is gone.

    Comment by animal — May 19, 2012 @ 7:20 am

  141. Too much negativity…if you don’t like it don’t watch it. And I personally enjoyed having the boys fight an insipid clever monster instead of a visceral monster most comparable to a rabid dog. I found Dick Roman to be quite the scary character though his death was a bit under-whelming (but then again maybe he’s not really dead…after all that purgatory door has to open to let dean out). I liked the idea of a powerful mass of monsters trying to knock humans down a peg. Anxiously waiting for Season 8!

    Comment by J21 — May 19, 2012 @ 7:34 am

  142. Hi
    I agree with you J21.
    I love this season finale. And the whole séason
    wasn´t so bad. I´m looking forward to Season 8.
    And the Impala drove in liké in episode 5.22 at
    the cemetery. That was awesome. So i can´t wait til September.

    Comment by Isabel — May 19, 2012 @ 8:00 am

  143. I am looking forward to Cas in season 8. I do not know if he is gonna come back as ‘crazy’ or normal Cas, either one is fine.

    There are many things I would like to see in season 8. I loved the storyline with Lucifer. There is so many things they could have done with that character and they didn’t and it was disappointing. I think that he and Michael need to make a reappearance and maybe destroy Crowley, who hates Lucifer.

    I hope that they feature Death and maybe “God” this season. That would be great storyline. If Carver can find a good way to get Dean out of Purgatory and not make Sam go all ‘darkside’ would be nice. Plus I think that Cas is still trapped with Dean in Purg, I mean he can’t just come and go from Purgatory like Heaven. He had to open a portal to Purgatory at the beginning of this season to put the Levi’s back inside. What makes people think Cas just left? I think he is hiding and looking for a way out. I just hope that the story for the back end of the series comes full circle and goes back to its original roots.

    Comment by bluekaos21 — May 19, 2012 @ 8:03 am


    you’re not a New York Times hollywood critic mate stop acting so pretentious

    Comment by Negative — May 19, 2012 @ 8:05 am







    Comment by Karina — May 19, 2012 @ 8:06 am

  146. Really Wild Speculation after a rewatch:

    What if Cas was yanked out of purgatory by God?? Or something. So next season it’s Sam and Cas who are looking for a way to get Dean out. Sam has to find out where Dean is somehow so let Cas fill him in.

    Or not. Maybe they want Sam completely alone–not even Meg to help him. Because Jared mentioned in one of his convention sessions that they are getting another chance at a storyline from the past. What if that story line is the one that the writer’s strike cut short–Sam rescuing Dean. This time from purgatory. Hopefully with no demon blood involved except maybe Sam pondering the idea of how far he would go to rescue his brother.

    So if (big if) Cas is with Sam, who is with Dean? Hello, Bobby! “Here’s to running into you guys on the other side. Only… not too soon, all right?” A bit of foreshadowing, maybe? Dean and Bobby could be running into all kinds of monsters with grudges. (I vote Gordon if he can leave his army wife for a little while.)

    Anyway, probably not. What we’ll probably get is Cas saving Dean time after time in purgatory and earning Dean’s forgiveness after all.

    OK, now the opinion section:
    I am lukewarm on the finale. It felt too crowded and there was too much loopy Cas, too much corporate blah, blah, blah and too many dick jokes. How old are we? Did the bubblegum-chewing teenage girl really need to take her dress off, Sera? That bothered me (it was probably supposed to.) The Cas and Dean scenes did nothing for me. Bobby’s send off seemed very anticlimactic considering we already said goodbye in the gut-wrenching “Death’s Door.”

    However, both J’s were good as always. And on a shallow note, they looked really good too. (I know) OK, another shallow note, that’s two ladies that Sam has scooped up with no absolutely no effort whatsoever. I like the teenage prophet. And we have the promise of nasty Crowley and nasty Alpha Vamp next season and a new show runner so I will be tuning in this October.

    Comment by jace — May 19, 2012 @ 8:06 am

  147. I probably won’t stop watching if Castiel remains on the show (but the show is in danger of being replaced as my favorite by Once Upon A Time), but I’ll start recording and hitting the fast-forward button every time I see any angel other than Gabriel – particularly the dreadful Cas.

    Comment by RS — May 19, 2012 @ 8:07 am

  148. I believe in giving credit where credit is due…and If the idea of placing dean in purg was sera’s Idea than creidt to her. Never saw it coming so I was indeed shocked. and I find it interesting that the fight has been taken to another relm…I saw a piece of hell at the end of 3.22 and beginning of 4.1. got to see heaven in “dark side of the moon” and “the man who would be king”. wonder what purg will look like….moreso how will dean get out even with an angle. If Eve needed help from earth to get out of her own relm how will a fallen angle. MY god dean sent alot of monster back there. I’m actually excited about season 8.

    Comment by N-D's — May 19, 2012 @ 8:13 am

  149. This is the best montage I’ve ever seen on TV to “Carry On My Wayward Son”! Cracked up at Crowley’s “This is an embarrassment of riches” and Dean’s remark on Crowley will always find a way to bone you. Sam’s “Dick made more Dicks” was hysterical. So glad they didn’t show Bobby’s ghost burning up – so sad the boy’s faces having to go through that a second time. Loved the “Born To Be Wild” with the Impala – one of the best 60 seconds of my life! Loved Deans’ Frankenstein move on Dick, Dick laughing the whole time and just exploding was just excellent! Love the purgatory scene! I screamed at the TV “Dean’s in purgatory?? Holy crap!”. I feel so sorry for Sam just standing there alone trying to get everything together. I loved the finale.

    There are so many directions Carver could take this. I want to see a purgatory storyline and mythology around it. I want to see Sam rescue Dean from purgatory. Glad big bad will be Crowley and want to see the Alpha Vamp more. I want Cas to get back to normal.

    I swear I remember Zachariah saying that he had pulled Dean and Sam’s mother out of purgatory, but, I’ll have to watch that episode again to make sure.

    It will be interesting to see how Sam stops the rest of the Levis from reorganizing. I think Crowley wants to find the other two God tablets and needs Kevin, the prophet, to translate them. Dean in purgatory – the possibilities on what will happen with that are endless! I think Cas disappeared for a reason and will be back.

    Comment by DeanSam1 — May 19, 2012 @ 8:22 am

  150. @149 my words exactly!

    Although I don’t think Sam needs to figure out the Levi things consider Crowley said he had an army of demons mopping up rest of the Levis at the end of the episode.

    Comment by muub — May 19, 2012 @ 8:34 am

  151. Maybe death will get them both out.
    I like to believe that death has power over all things: demons and hell, angles and heaven, monsters and purgatory, and of course the “all powerful god” who he will reap too.
    he did afterall effortlessly go to hell to get sam’s soul back.
    i do hope that dean and cas are in purg for a while let us get a feel of the relm and maybe some new monsters.
    don’t get them out on the first epi, let them marinate for a while.

    I’m guessing season 8 will kick off with a bang given what the prophet has told sam about needing to blow up the place.
    and unfortunately all of the levis didn’t drop dead when dean killed dick, buggers.
    really not a fan of the leviathans.

    Very happy to that Cs and Crowley are still alive.

    Comment by super time — May 19, 2012 @ 8:53 am

  152. Ratings were down–0.6, down from last weeks 0.7.

    They could adjust up though.

    Comment by jace — May 19, 2012 @ 8:56 am

  153. @negative: Wow, how pretentious of you to tell people how to write and post! Geesh.

    Comment by twinster — May 19, 2012 @ 9:18 am

  154. DeanSams1: I agree with you about last night’s eppie. I’m not going to watch it again until my sister comes next weekend, and we do the Season 7 marathon. I guess I’m gonna have to return Season 6 to my bud when she comes to visit in June. Means I’ll have to buy it on blue ray! Also, don’t take in account what Zachariah says, he lies too much.

    Comment by twinster — May 19, 2012 @ 9:27 am

  155. Season 7 just so so for me. I did enjoy the finale however. I think another hour would have given them more time to address things. Felt rushed. Looking forward to S8.

    I think there is a fine line between constructive criticism and hateful bashing. Misha may be a media hound(I don’t beleive he is, any more than other actors, thats part of the gig) but he is doing something positive and good for the world. Are you?

    I love some characters more than others but I love this show and am onboard until the bitter(and I think it will be) end! This show, even at its worse is still head and shoulders better than most everything else on TV.

    Comment by LMD — May 19, 2012 @ 9:29 am

  156. Wow, I love this show so much, I don’t know how to survive the next months…

    Comment by Fran — May 19, 2012 @ 10:05 am

  157. The overnights have it dropping from 1.7 mil .7 in the first half to 1.45 mil .6 (ouch!) in the second half. I got bored too. When are they going to learn that the audience wants Dean and Sam–and that a Castiel centered and Collins hyped episode, even the finale, is not a ratings winner. His earlier big Castiel Returns episode was the lowest rated episode of the season–unless this one ends up in finals below it.

    Comment by CaseyT — May 19, 2012 @ 10:12 am

  158. Loved the Dean and Cas stuff in this one. Loved the ending. Finally a set-up for Dean to have a supernaturally-themed storyline again-Dean and Cas as the hunters AND the hunted in Purgatory(which looked creepy as hell, btw)?-Awesome! Dean getting the big kill in finale again?-Awesome X 10! And I’m all for the brothers having to be separated under these conditions. It even feels right in a storyboard sense, at this point, and IMO. Hope Mr Carver takes full advantage of it. For the first time in a long time, I’m looking forward to a new season of Supernatural. Bring it!

    Comment by Sarah2 — May 19, 2012 @ 10:23 am

  159. @CaseyT: That doesn’t surprise me at all. I tuned out half way, it was so boring and awful.

    Comment by Katie — May 19, 2012 @ 10:24 am

  160. I don’t give a crap about Castiel. i don’t even know why he’s on this show I’m so sick of seeing him and everyone I know who watches the show is also sick of seeing him. i think Castiel fans are a really vocal minority who just like to scream loud, especially on the likes of that craze fest called Tumblr. Tumblr is awful.

    Comment by Jessica — May 19, 2012 @ 10:30 am

  161. The finale was boring in spots so I’m not surprised the viewers tuned out. The Leviathan were a horrible enemy. They were boring and unlikeable! Past enemies have been somewhat likable!

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 19, 2012 @ 10:47 am

  162. I didn’t find one moment of last night’s episode boring. It held my attention and the time flew by. I was amazed when I looked at my clock and it was already 9:45.I loved some of the jokes, and one liners in the ep. Someone was aghast at the Destiel joke earlier. I saw it as just a snarky, joke that Meg said. She wasn’t being serious, just her annoying, snarky self. Even Dean was annoyed by the comment. I had a great time chatting with a friend online while watching the show. Gonna miss that on Fridays. I’m really looking forward to season 8 and seeing what the new show runner will do with it.

    I have quite a few friends and family that like the character Castiel. I don’t know anyone personally that hates him. I actually don’t know anyone that hates any character rabidly like some people here. Now I’d be sad if Cas leaves the show permanently like Bobby but I watch the show mainly for Dean and Sam (and I will admit I’m a through and through Dean girl). Can’t have your Dean without Sam! Or vice versa! And I like the idea if they are apart it is not because they are angry with each other and will obviously be trying to get back to each other.

    I’m kinda hoping like someone said early that perhaps Cas got out of Purgatory (maybe Crowley wanted Dean by himself) and will work with Sam at getting Dean back. I kinda like the idea of Dean alone in Purgatory fighting his way out.

    Tumblr? I don’t even know what that is. I find it rather sad when people start attacking other people for characters they like in a tv show. Sometimes I wonder about this board here, with all the hate, and negativity that abounds. Gives me a headache at times.

    I also noted the contract that had Dean’s name on it. Wonder what that was about? But then again I think Crowley doubled crossed Dick so anything in the contract would be null and void. I still have a hard wrapping my mind around Dean being in Purgatory. Here’s to season 8, and hopefully, a Dean centric story line!!!

    Comment by twinster — May 19, 2012 @ 12:11 pm

  163. Everyone I know in real life can’t stand Castiel and want him gone. Castiel was the main reason why four out of my five brothers who watched this show religiously from week to week, stopped watching the show. Because of Castiel. So, opinions may vary and Castiel is not as popular as everyone thinks.

    Comment by Katie — May 19, 2012 @ 12:15 pm

  164. Sorry to break it to everyone but CASS IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE ANY TIME SOON although i agree his character was mediocre at best this season, EVERY DAMN COMMENT IS ABOUT HIM. We all get it now you people dont like him, MOVE ON.

    Comment by benji — May 19, 2012 @ 12:33 pm

  165. Or how about you guys pull a OZZIE and a JESSICA and just stop watching, and save everyone all this negative BS.

    Comment by benji — May 19, 2012 @ 12:40 pm

  166. OMG this is the most sad and pathetic fan site i have ever been to, all this self entitlement crap while hiding behind your freedom of speech, or for just about everyone here freedom to complain, and not to do anything about changing it.

    Comment by jennie — May 19, 2012 @ 12:51 pm

  167. To Nikki (126): Seconded, dear. Thoroughly.
    And am looking forward to season 8 á la Mr Carver.
    Supernatural rules!!

    Comment by Miss JM.01 — May 19, 2012 @ 1:01 pm

  168. I wonder if the last two years have been so bad
    because eric kripke has a new show starting this
    fall about the apocalypse and maybe supernatural
    wasnt allowed to go there? mmmmmm
    It also seems that the actors are going through
    the motions. They could be done with this show.
    There is no way they are back for nine.
    I actually feel bad for the actors. This used to
    be a great show.
    Please go back to the good old days writers.

    Comment by lina lamont — May 19, 2012 @ 1:14 pm

  169. @166 i did do something about it. i went to the cw site and stated in the feedback that castiel is a useless piece of crap. i don’t think it did anything but it made me feel better. dean should be in pergatory by himself-not with cas. it totally takes away from the suspense of what could happen there.

    i liked some of the finale not all of it. i liked the sam and dean moments-talking in the car, getting the nuns bone, talking at the cabin. ect… i loved the impala but hated the way she came back. with no dean talking to his baby. i hated everything about cas and just his part at the end. i loved the feel of pergatory-the sound and look of it. i just hate that cas is there with dean. i loved that dean got his kill on dick, but i hated all the dick stuff as well.-so i give the finale 6/10

    Comment by animal — May 19, 2012 @ 1:22 pm

  170. @ CaseyT #157: That’s too bad, but I just don’t think there was enough action early on. Dick, the political evil corporate guy, was not a good villian, no purpose to Polly or taking off her dress, GhostBobby was a boring story with an actress that had appeared for a minute or two previously, and Fruit Loop Cas was not funny or interesting. That was 3/4 of the episode. Too bad, though, they didn’t catch the last ten minutes that set up great potential for next year.

    Personally, all season I have hung in there just to see the ten minutes the J2s were in the epiosode, and both characters were written terrible this year and with no story to sustain them. They did the best they could with the material given them.

    I’m sure the numbers will go up, and I really hope fans come back next year and give Jeremy a chance. I think everyone from Mark Pedowitz on down want to give the show a good season next year.

    Comment by Sheri — May 19, 2012 @ 1:46 pm

  171. Unfortunately, I think if their idea is to split up the boys for most of the season, then they may lose more viewers. I think most fans want to see the boys together fighting, not separated yet again.

    Hopefully, Carver realizes this!

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 19, 2012 @ 2:06 pm

  172. The finale was suppossed to be some kind of tearjerker. I don’t think I’ve ever felt so emotionally unattached during a finale before. Probably because it was all action and very little emotion. I felt practically nothing.

    None of the deaths apart from Dean’s (if you want to call it that) meant anything to me. Bobby’s death as a ghost was predictable and bound to happen. It was a mess of a storyline for him anyway.

    As far as Dean is concerned, while it is kind of sad that he’s in purgatory and Sam is all alone in the world, it’s been done before. Why would I even be upset about it? Dean will get out one way or another and the brothers will reunite again. It’s been done too many times to the point where I’m not even worried about it. There was nothing really heartbreaking about the finale at all. What effect is death suppossed to have on the audience if it doesn’t mean anything anymore?

    Comment by Sara — May 19, 2012 @ 2:22 pm

  173. This was definitely a lackluster season. The villains were far too subtle in their attempt take over the world for it to really be very menacing. Not much seemed to happen. I would have rathered an over-the-top, destroy everything in sight villain compared to what season 7 gave us.

    Still, I do like the ending with Dean and Cas in Purgatory. I’m not sure why Cas bailed at the end. Hopefully he is just using Dean as bait so he can get the jump on the purgatory souls. If he really just bailed. Well, the souls better rip him to piece because that’s messed up.

    Comment by Jake — May 19, 2012 @ 2:39 pm

  174. Worst season since season 1..

    Some good episodes but at the times I didn’t even bother with this show. Problem was that leviathans suck and story didn’t go anywhere

    Comment by iddqd — May 19, 2012 @ 2:55 pm

  175. Hmmm….I’m not sure Cas has bailed. He could have been taken. I kinda like the idea if Dean is by himself. When he was in hell, we really didn’t get to see what it was like. I’m hoping we get some action in purgatory. As I said before, I really loved last night’s ep. I’m sorry for those who didn’t. I got a lot out of it: good one liners, action, brotherly moments, Dean got the kill, the Impala, Sam getting choked by ghost Bobby, classic rock, nutty Cas, Bobby saying fair well, and Dean being sent to purgatory! I’m not going to watch it again until next weekend when my sister visits. People need to start looking for the good, instead of any bit of bad they can find. I have a hard time rating each season. Even if I did rank a season 7th, doesn’t mean didn’t like it. I mean, I’ve enjoyed all 7 seasons and one has to be first, and one has to come in last. I kinda would put season 4 last, maybe, not sure.

    Someone mentioned they didn’t like this year’s villian(s) because they were too subtle. The villians who are hard to see and are subtle are the scariest because you don’t realize they are bad. I don’t need to be hit over the head by bad guys week in and week out. IMO.

    Here is to another year of the best show on television!


    Comment by twinster — May 19, 2012 @ 3:31 pm

  176. OMG!!! Can’t you all see what’s going on! This is ALL leading somewhere. Just like Smallville, It all lead to Clark Kent becoming modern day Superman. This is leading to GOD showing up. Think about it. Dean made a comment about being cursed. He’s tired. He’s doing the job but he’s becoming indifferent. The only break he ever had was when Sam was sent to the cage and he was regular for a year. He’s realizing that the job that they do is pointless. It seems like no one cares about humanity accept him and Sam. They are fragile and they are fighting super powered beings. Dean is going to get shredded in Purgatory but he’ll be saved in the first episode. Crowley (who is my fucking idol) isn’t Season 8’s big bad guy. It’s eve. When they break dean out eve will appear. If the season last til Season 10, I garentee you that Jeffery Dean Morgan will come back AND GOD will appear and he will fix everything setting everything straight and he will bless Sam and Dean for they’re heroicism the last 10 seasons. Stick with the show. Its getting lendgendary.

    Comment by christopher corley — May 19, 2012 @ 4:05 pm

  177. Charlie: “Nico, you are so predictable. Your bashing of a certain actor starts in 3…. 2….”

    Nah, I leave that to his fans since they never seem to appreciate his work no matter how front and center Gamble has made him.

    But I have no problem bashing his fans because they really do make him look bad.

    Let me quote you back to yourself Charlie: “I was thinking the exact same thing about the Attention Whore ala Misha Collins but at the same time felt bad about dissing a charity.”

    I can’t quite figure out if such blatant hypocrisy is deliberate trolling or if you really are just that dim.

    Speaking of, are you aware of you fellow batshit wincesst and sam girls tweeting threats to the producers threatening to kill themselves over Dean and Cas being in purgatory together?

    You guys truly are a credit to this fandom. Well done.

    Comment by Nico — May 19, 2012 @ 4:25 pm

  178. “The finale was suppossed to be some kind of tearjerker. I don’t think I’ve ever felt so emotionally unattached during a finale before. Probably because it was all action and very little emotion. I felt practically nothing.

    None of the deaths apart from Dean’s (if you want to call it that) meant anything to me. Bobby’s death as a ghost was predictable and bound to happen. It was a mess of a storyline for him anyway.

    As far as Dean is concerned, while it is kind of sad that he’s in purgatory and Sam is all alone in the world, it’s been done before. Why would I even be upset about it? Dean will get out one way or another and the brothers will reunite again. It’s been done too many times to the point where I’m not even worried about it. There was nothing really heartbreaking about the finale at all. What effect is death suppossed to have on the audience if it doesn’t mean anything anymore?”

    Excellent post, Sara! I couldn’t agree more w/you. That’s why I’m saying the show has no heart. There’s no emotional attachment to what happened this season. “Hello, Cruel World” had the most heart of all this season. I was very emotioanlly involved and invested during that episode.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 19, 2012 @ 4:37 pm

  179. Maybe they will run into some old victims
    In purgatory… Possibly my old favourite
    Yellow eyes

    Comment by Jason — May 19, 2012 @ 4:49 pm

  180. What an awesome finale. i dont get the posts about this being a bad season. think about how action packed seaso8 is going to be. Cass and dean are i a cage with every monster theyve ever seen. Sam is going to have to step it up now. Not sure if bobby is going to be in purgatory, maybe he’ll be there to help. Wo knows. I just know i cant wait.

    Comment by cody — May 19, 2012 @ 5:16 pm

  181. Cody: people on this board love to trash SPN. I’ve said it before, I’m one of the fans that actually liked the last 2 seasons. Is it as good as seasons 1-3. No, but good none of the less.

    I’m not sure what Nico is ranting about? Wincest fans and Sam girls tweeting the show? I’m not sure why they’d want to kill themselves over Cas and Dean in Purgatory? Confused there. I guess I don’t tweet enough at what is going on there. But I haven’t seen any of that here. I’m seeing a lot of Cas bashing, Season 6 & 7 bashing. And some Dean/Jensen and Sam/Jared bashing. I don’t get fans of the show bashing it as much as they have. Some of the posts are bordering on trolling.

    I am glad that I do see some others out there that have enjoyed the show as much as I have, and it is refreshing to read about it. I get a headache after reading so much negativism, it just goes, and goes on forever. I wonder what the board was like in earlier seasons? Was it as bad?

    I guess I’m the kind of viewer who doesn’t look for the bad but looks for the good. And I’ve seen a lot of good this season. There have been things I didn’t like, but I didn’t dwell on them. I get the feeling some people just zero in on any little thing they don’t like. And I don’t get there being “no heart” this season. Seems like I have seen aplenty.

    As a poster said earlier, he thinks Dean will be out in episode 1 of season 8. I bet he isn’t. There will be those who complain if he is and those who will complain if he isn’t. Can’t make everyone happy.

    Still sticking to my guns that SPN is still the best show out there, and Season 8 will be great. I just realized if it is on Wednesday’s nights, I’ll have to DVR the show most of the time. Dang.

    Comment by twinster — May 19, 2012 @ 5:41 pm

  182. Also why did dick look so happy when he was dying? He had that smug smile the entire time. He deffinetly wants to be in purgatory with dean.

    And you know what i dont get. The one thing thats always really bothered me… Why arent they ever looking for a way to bring back their dad? I guess because jeffery dean isnt on board? Wouldnt that be cool if some how their dad evended in in purg. and was helping. Dean fight. That id like to see.

    As far as the whole castiel situation… I cant believe how many people dislike that. Char. I mean ill agree he was pretty much not needed this season really.. If it wasnt for his blood and being able to spot the ‘real dick’. I feel like hes back on board and at then end went to look for something (someone) to help dean and himself survive. I hate we have to waitmonths to find out.this season might have been lackluster, but venever wanted tosee what happens next more!

    Comment by cody — May 19, 2012 @ 5:47 pm

  183. They usually don’t try to bring people back from the dead, Cody. Dean did, and look what happened. Dean went to hell, and Sam became addicted to demon blood and trusted a demon over his brother. The only good that came from it was that Sam was alive. Generally, they stick to,”What’s dead, should stay dead” because generally nothing good comes from being brought back from being dead.

    I’m not sure if Cas is even in purgatory with Dean right now. We will have to wait until October to find out. Sigh..

    Comment by twinster — May 19, 2012 @ 6:06 pm

  184. This show is pretend. It is a source of entertainment. Made up by the people who tell it. It is thier story to tell. There is no right or wrong with fiction. Nothing can change the outcome of what is said and done about the story. The people who write it have all the power. So if you like it, you watch it. (and support the actors who entertain you) If you don’t like it, you don’t watch it. Simple as that. Complaining and insulting is silly. This is not real. Now everyone go to bed.

    Comment by Ginger — May 19, 2012 @ 6:10 pm

  185. Cass is back to normal after being sent to purgatory. Look at how he was serious and is tone of voice. I don’t like how they got sent to purgatory. I would like to see Sam drink demon blood and become powerful to zap demons with his mind like he did before he said yes to Lucifer or he gives up because their is no hope to save dean and Cass but besides take the blood of an native from purgatory and I’m no sure if leviathans count as blood.he gives up and goes back to college. Sam could die like dean did by the doctor so he can talk to death. Dean and Sam helped death trap the devil and free death and he did dean a favor so maybe he will do a favor for Sam. I really hate how it ended with Cass leaving dean. Granted he probable just zapped away to see what’s going on right fast and will get dean in a minute but still it was kinda crappy. I would like to see the angel Joshua come back since God speaks to him or Sam find God since he’s apparently on earth

    Comment by switzer — May 19, 2012 @ 6:43 pm

  186. Cas did not leave Dean….. He’s more than likely scouting the area to get a clear understanding of where they are… He will appear right next to Dean seconds later… And is it me or did Cas seem to be back to his old self when he was in Purgatory…. Maybe in death his sanity comes back

    Comment by Trevel — May 19, 2012 @ 10:35 pm

  187. The season was a bit rushed here at the end. They should have spent more time building the climax, having a sacrifice, and then the classic showdown episode. This has not been the worst season, but in comparison to others was lacking in the writing department. As a paraphrased quote, ‘ends are hard.’

    Comment by DevilsWearNoDresses — May 19, 2012 @ 10:51 pm

  188. It would be interesting to see that Cas is saved from Purgatory by god or crowley. I´d like to see Sam-Castiel episodes, I´m curious to see if that works. But I think it will be Sam and Cas/Dean. Dont mind that though, if Cas is back to normal again

    Comment by Robin — May 20, 2012 @ 3:33 am

  189. I just want Dean and Cas to get out of purgatory as fast as possible ,with no time jump either.But from interviews and fan speculation I am getting really worried they will be stuck there for longer.Which sounds stupid to me because Dean wouldn´t have anything to survive there and die without water, he woudl have no human things at all because why would any of that be in a shadowy monsters only landscape?

    Comment by michi — May 20, 2012 @ 4:31 am

  190. The problem with the Levi, and Dick Roman in particular, as the big villians is that there was never anything established that personally involved the Winchesters. The Levi were nothing more than one percenters wanting to take over the world. They were just the big evil corporations out to get humanity. They were just a big, everyday bad thing in the world (according to the writers). Because there was no personal connection to the Winchesters, I found it hard to get a sense of personal connection or any investment in them as a big, bad evil adversary.

    Not only that, but in the end, the Winchesters only took out the head one. The rest are roaming the Earth chomping on the general population, running the government, the military, the research labs. The head guy is gone, so the evil is not organized into an overall, singular plan, but the evil, bad corporations, according to the writers, are still with us.

    The whole concept was a crappy, political statement that did not resonate, because there was no personal investment in the story to the Winchesters. They ganked one bad guy, but the evil lurks amongst us.

    Comment by Sheri — May 20, 2012 @ 4:32 am

  191. The old adage “Be careful what you wish for,” is so true.

    Meg was so awesome; I really wanted her to come back. She was so sinister and villainous, and Nikki Aycox was terrific.

    I really, really wanted them to show the angels to us. I felt that it was unbalanced to show only the demons and other supernatural evil.

    I was so pumped up when I found out Meg was coming back. I was so happy at first. I was really excited when Castiel appeared as an awesome Angel of the Lord.

    Then Meg became some weirdo ally played by a different actress, whose every sentence makes me think I’m watching a bad Mae West impression, whose character went from delicious antagonist to angel caretaker, and worse, got behind the wheel of the Impala (a violation of the code, dammit!).

    And the awesome Angel of the Lord turned into a comic foil.

    Bad Day at Black Rock got it right in this regard. It makes me remember to be careful what I wish for. Just like the rabbit’s foot, the luck turns sour. The wishes go bad!! The wishes go bad!!

    Yeah, I know this is random.

    Comment by bestshowfan — May 20, 2012 @ 4:38 am

  192. @ bestshowfan: The good thing about the episode is that Carver can use the old characters again or just put them on the back burner.

    Meg was awful this season. I’m glad she’s gone and hope she doesn’t come back.

    Crowley can either be the new bad guy, or he can be a sub-plot and used sparingly.

    Bobby can appear again, but I hope he doesn’t. They ruined his whole story this season when the turned him into a ghost, brought him back, and killed him off again. I hope he doesn’t come back again — too much resurrection, and I don’t see him having a story again.

    I wished they hadn’t put Cas in Purgatory with Dean, but we know Misha will be used as a regular, so here he is. What I hope to get out of the Purgatory story is a badass, hardened Dean. I don’t care a thing about the old and tired, will Dean make up with Cas and they’ll be BFF’s again. The slash crap is old now. And I hope they don’t address Dean finding a reason to hunt, or love hunting, again. That’s been thrown out there since S2 and has never been addressed. I would prefer a whole new slant on Dean next season.

    I don’t care a thing about who Sam finds as friends to help him. I hope that Sam’s total focus is on saving Dean, that he does save Dean, and that he’s smart, determined, focus, and ruthless in solving that, or whatever it is he’s supposed to solve this next season.

    I hope Crowley is a sub-plot and, you know, Kevin was totally unnecessary in the finale. I hope that he’ll only be used in one episode and be done with him. I don’t really need a token Asian that has no real purpose and; quite frankly, he’s a good actor, but the role he has in SPN is nothing anybody couldn’t have done.

    I look at the potential of the finale as endless, and I hope that Carver uses it as a complete reset for telling a compelling story — something that no one expects and is thoroughly surprised by.

    Comment by Sheri — May 20, 2012 @ 6:06 am

  193. I think that the last thing I want to see is Sam drinking demon blood. That would mean that he was stupid and hadn’t learned a thing and would just become some demon’s puppet. I don’t understand the desire to see Sam once again screwing up just so he can have powers.

    Also, while being an addict, he basically chose his addiction over Dean so if you actually want Sam to look good in this, he’ll be clean and sober and actually spend a long time getting Dean out of Hell onscreen and not getting high while having sex with his blood dealer.

    I don’t want to see Bobby again ever. He should’ve gone with the reaper and not forced the brothers’ hand.

    Comment by ORLY — May 20, 2012 @ 8:50 am

  194. i dont know how i feel about this episode….am confused and angry….i meen at the end they kill the leviathan leader but now they ended up i purgatory…i meen how the hell is sam gonna find a way to pull dean and cas back….!?but i agree with you..cas looks normal at the end..!are we gonna make a hole new season without dean or cas….how can they protect their selves their..that ridiculous…!i meen cas disappeared at the end…and dean is alone with all those monsters…they killed dean,sam,cas,bobby so many bobby is dead for real,cas andd dean are gone….am just saying..if i was sam i would be flipping out…last note: the boys killed all the leviathans….??

    Comment by anona — May 20, 2012 @ 10:51 am

  195. I’m thinking maybe Sam goes to purgatory to save Dean. Wouldn’t it be awesome to see them there fighting monsters together before they find a way to get out of there?

    They could also run into some old enemies they killed before. And maybe Bobby too since we can’t really be sure where he went after the flask was burned – he was a ghost after all.

    Anyway, skip the summer – I’m ready for S8. October can’t come soon enough!

    Comment by gfg — May 20, 2012 @ 10:51 am

  196. I actually hope they don’t run into old enemies in Purgatory, and especially not Bobby. Bobby and Meg need to stay gone, as far as I am concerned. They drug their stories out way too long and pretty much ruined the characters for me.

    @ anona #194: No, the boys didn’t kill all the Levi — just the head one. The rest of them are out there free to chomp on humans at their hearts content. They didn’t wrap up the Levi story at all, and I was hoping they would.

    # ORLY #193: I don’t remember any conversation about Sam drinking demon blood again. I think that story is dead and gone. They won’t bring it up again. If anything, Sam will be successful in getting Dean out of Purgatory. I just don’t know what happened to requiring an eclipse to open the door.

    Comment by Sheri — May 20, 2012 @ 11:09 am

  197. guys come check out my tumblr !! .. <—
    i update everyday! .. and new funny supernatural comics .. no virus i promise .. SO COME ;D

    Comment by Chuong — May 20, 2012 @ 12:42 pm

  198. Sheri, your point is the reason why I don’t think Sam will have anything to do with rescuing Dean. I couldn’t remember the fine points, but I did remember that it took special circumstances to open the door to Purgatory. How can Sam recreate it? Call on Death? Yeah, right. Death seems to hate both Sam and Dean.

    I think Cas will rescue Dean.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 20, 2012 @ 12:56 pm

  199. @196, there’s mention of it at 88 and 185 in terms of people speccing. I don’t want to see that spec come true.

    Comment by ORLY — May 20, 2012 @ 1:20 pm

  200. First time on this site and first time poster, but since I just spent my entire afternoon reading every single comment on here, I don’t feel too shy about jumping in and putting my two cents in. So, I’m just gonna ramble on and touch on some of the topics I remember mentioned……………

    I also don’t see why so many people want to see Sam drinking demon blood again. It was not a good thing, it was turning him into something evil (Remember his eyes went all demon black towards the end there, how can that possibly be a good thing?). He was not in control. Sam is smart, resourceful, one hell of a hunter and he has one hell of a powerful motivation, saving his brother, which is something Sam always want to do.

    And as for the lack of brotherly moment, didn’t Swan Song teaches us anything? We only see less than a quarter of the boys’ life together. Most of their relationship happens off screen, their determination to fight for each other and sacrifice everything for each other is the end result of those bonding times that occurs off screen. Seriously, even in season 1, especially in season 1 when Sam was being so bitchy and downright mean to Dean in multiple episodes, it made me wonder why on earth Dean was so devoted to Sam, especially since Sam didn’t seem to appreciate it, and I figured, there must be more to their relationship than what we see. And it was from little comments made here and there (Dean saying how he has felt responsible for Sam since carrying him out of the fire and Sam saying that he would die for Dean) that really underscored their bond, not so much the stuff we saw on-screen.

    From what I saw in the episodes, there were a lot of thing that were said that showed us that the brothers talked off-screen because I was pretty darn sure they weren’t address on-screen. We’re intelligent people, everything doesn’t have to be spelled out for us. They’ve had genuine bonding moments very rarely on screen, and it’s usually after something big had happened to one. Most of the times, they use humor and sarcasm to show their love.

    As for the Levis. The damn things were ready for mass slaughter with contingency plans on how to maintain crowd control and people thought they weren’t freaking scary mothers. The fact that the entire thing took place like a freaking business deal is the scariest part because unlike the other villains of the show, crap like the leviathans silently taking over all of the heads of industry and government without anybody being aware of it is so much more realistic which makes it a lot scarier, atleast for me. Everyone would have lived their entire lives as cattle and not even realize it and even if they did, they wouldn’t have cared since they were pretty much stoned out of their minds. Come on people.

    I too hated what happened to Bobby and his final send-off. He never should have stayed behind. To all the people who were pissed at Dean for his reception of Bobby at the big reveal, once again, Dean was right, chalk one more hit for the supposed dumb ass older brother. It’s funny how in the course of the entire show, Dean’s gut instincts usually turned out to be 100 percent accurate, but he is always criticize and bashed for making those pretty accurate predictions.

    I’m neither a Cass lover nor hater, but I liked him in the finale. And he is trying to make amends so I’m not going to bash him for making mistakes similar to what the Winchesters did. BTW, I never got how Dean breaking the first seal can be compared to Sam breaking the last one. Dean was being tortured in hell and after years of suffering, he finally broke. Sam was being arrogant and thinking he was one big bad mother with all the answers…… Not even remotely close to being the same thing. Of course that didn’t stop Dean from feeling equally responsible (after getting over his initial anger with Sam) and Sam, bless his heart, never felt that Dean was as responsible as him. I tend to agree with Sam.

    I LOVED, absolutely loved the finale. Just like he kept his promise to the YED monster, Dean kept his promise to Dick. Baby being back, definite plus. Is it me, or did it seem like Sam and Dean were driving Baby until the very last second. I could’ve sworn there were two people in the car, so I’m thinking the boys drove over and right before hitting the sign, Cas took them out and Meg jumped in. It’s possible. In fact, as far as I’m concern that’s what happened. No way would Dean have it otherwise.

    I do hope that they tie up some loose ends before the series end. For example, does Sam still have demon blood in him since coming back from the pit. How was Dean able to kill Zacharia when they had said that only other angels could kill their fellow angels. And what about ADAM? I loved the real Adam, ghoul Adam was too meek. Real Adam was like another version of Dean which I loved!!! I will love him forever for asking Sam if he knew how full of crap he was when Sam was talking about being raised with John. Although we found out a couple episodes later that Sam has been manipulated from the time he was a little kid into feeling the way he did about his family, it still bugs the hell out of me.

    All in all, I have loved this show since episode one, and I will be crying like a maniac when I watch the series finale. And you know what, I would not love it any less than when it first started. Did I like everything that happened, no, but that’s because I’ve grown to love my boys and they’ve been put through too much crap. The actors, especially JA and JP are some of the best I’ve seen in years and I appreciate the heck out of them for their great work.

    ps, I wouldn’t mind them bringing Bobby back because I love him to bit, but please not as a ghost, they should pull a Dean and Sam (or even Castiel) on him.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 20, 2012 @ 1:51 pm

  201. Wow, totally didn’t realize how much crap I wrote.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 20, 2012 @ 2:01 pm

  202. @179 Yellow Eyed in purgatory? Since when do demons go to purgatory instead of hell? Just rewatched the finale, and to me it looked like Cas didn’t leave himself, why would he wake up dean first and then leave? I think someone got him out of there, maybe crowley, death, god? Or maybe he is just looking for help, we will see. 5 months is to long lol.

    Comment by Robin — May 20, 2012 @ 2:05 pm

  203. Stone120 – great comments! Just wanted to say I saw two people in the Impala, too! I totally agree with your assessment that Meg jumped out at the last minute. Meg most certainly can’t drive like our bad-ass Dean!

    Comment by DeanSam1 — May 20, 2012 @ 4:49 pm

  204. I lvoe that Cas and Dean ended up in Purgatory together. I hope they are there for a few episodes. They make a great team. Cas came through for the brothers as he always does. I hope Meg stays gone. It made both brothers look stupid and hypocritical to work with her. Now that Cas is back, there is no need for Meg. Hopefully the brothers stay apart for awhile. We might actually get some character growth for a change. I’m interested in how Cas and Dean get out of Purgatory. Hopefully on their own with no help from Sam. Sam should go help Kevin. He’s an innocent kid who deserves Sam’s priority protection. I’d hate Sam to abandon Keven just to look for Dean. Dean and Cas can handle things fine whereever they are.

    Comment by Anisa — May 20, 2012 @ 5:08 pm

  205. @stone120: What a breath of fresh air you are. Thank you so much for some well thought out positives points about the best show on TV right now. I agree with a lot you say. Sometimes it gets really depressing here reading all the negative posts and bashing that goes on. The only thing I didn’t agree on was Adam. I just never really liked him, but that could be because he wasn’t developed as a character. Some of the other things you mentioned that you hope to see address, I’m afraid they may have been dropped (Dean killing angles for one).

    Welcome aboard, and I hope you feel like posting some more.

    Comment by twinster — May 20, 2012 @ 6:49 pm

  206. they can’t keep the purgatory story past 1-2 episodes. Look at the monsters…they always use human monsters until now. They have to reunite the brothers together asap. The show needs three people but some episodes with just dean and Sam. With Cass looking like he’s back to normal. I would like to see a more bad ass version of him.

    Comment by switzer — May 20, 2012 @ 6:51 pm

  207. And oh yeah, stone120, thanks about the tip about who was in the Impala. I’m going to go back and see if I see what you saw. It did look like whomever was driving was wearing a blue shirt and that made me wonder then if someone other than Dean was driving her. I’m gonna go and look now.

    Comment by twinster — May 20, 2012 @ 6:52 pm

  208. Is it just me or does anyone else think the Cas has just been screwing with everyone since his return?

    Look at the way he talked to Dean in purgatory, his voice is back to his commanding self, no long totally aloof, was this the plan all along? Did Cas no what it would have to come to, did he know that Dean would end up in Purgatory.

    It would be a good twist, make everyone think that he was useless when he was really one of the most important assets the team had all along, just with out having Dick catch on.

    Comment by Stephen — May 20, 2012 @ 7:05 pm

  209. @stone120: I watched that scene frame by frame. And you are right, there are at least two people in the car, and a possible third. When of the Levi’s shoots the window out, there is still someone in the car! During the ride, it definitely looks like two men in the front seat. A very interesting look at that scene.

    Comment by twinster — May 20, 2012 @ 7:10 pm

  210. And I agree with some of the posters here: please, please to TPTB, don’t have Sam drink demon blood again! I’m hoping he learned his lesson the first time around!

    Comment by twinster — May 20, 2012 @ 7:15 pm

  211. THEN: ” All this pressure that you’re putting yourself under, all this guilt; it’s killing you. You can’t save everybody. You can’t. Hell, these days, you can’t save anybody, Dean. You got Ellen and Jo killed. You shot Lucifer, but you couldn’t gank him.You couldn’t stop Sam from killing Lillith, and–oh, yeah–you broke the first seal. All you do is fail. Did you really think that you, Dean Winchester with a GED and a give-‘em-hell attitude, were gonna beat the devil?” (DR. CARTWRIGHT, Season 5 episode 11)

    NOW: Pathetic Trenchcoat-keeper Dean.(Season 7 episode 17, The episode in which Dean winchester died for me. Sam, even as background, was a lot more interesting than him.

    Awful finale, season and showrunner..SPN lost 1.40 million viewers. /crying.

    Well done, Sera. ADIOS.

    Comment by Sol — May 20, 2012 @ 7:27 pm

  212. Stone120-this part you wrote;
    “. BTW, I never got how Dean breaking the first seal can be compared to Sam breaking the last one. Dean was being tortured in hell and after years of suffering, he finally broke. Sam was being arrogant and thinking he was one big bad mother with all the answers…… Not even remotely close to being the same thing.”

    Is so true- finally an intelligent person (besides Sam) who understands this…thank you.

    Comment by tammy — May 20, 2012 @ 7:28 pm

  213. Any spirit that is “put to rest” as they say is possibly in Purgatory. I think the same thing about Angels and Demons that were killed off with the Colt, Ruby’s knife, Angel killing knife, or by Sam when he was hopped up on demon blood. I don’t believe that their energy simply vanished into nothing. They were probably considered monsters at that point and their death means that they go to Purgatory. So that means that anything that the boys put down, be it a random monster, Azazel, or even Bobby, can be in Purgatory waiting for Dean.

    Comment by dude1983 — May 20, 2012 @ 7:35 pm

  214. Why is everyone talking about season 4 again? We’re about to go into season 8 here. The demon blood thing is over and done with and it’s not coming back. Why would Sam drink demon blood again? He’s not going to do that again and it doesn’t make sense for them to bring it back into play. I don’t see how that could possibly help him get Dean out of purgatory and he already knows how to kill the Leviathans.

    Nor does the neverending argument of who shares more blame in the apocalypse have any relevance. Yeah like that doesn’t get old. Can we move to the present please?

    Comment by lee — May 20, 2012 @ 7:37 pm

  215. I see the Dean bashing starting up again by a poster. So sad, hadn’t seen too much of it in awhile.

    Comment by twinster — May 20, 2012 @ 7:46 pm

  216. Stone120, while I agree with you in that Dean is in no way responsible for breaking the first seal, may I ask, in relation to your point “Sam was being arrogant and thinking he was one big bad mother with all the answers……”, why do you feel that Sam was ‘arrogant’ in relation to breaking the final seal? Do you think he was arrogant for actually breaking it, arrogant for believing he could kill Lilith or arrogant for believing that he could stop the Apocalypse?

    Comment by Etain — May 20, 2012 @ 10:12 pm

  217. Just wondering,where to find silver,salt,guns,knifes, borax? -_-, iridium in purgatory???

    Comment by luc — May 20, 2012 @ 10:39 pm

  218. Sam is arrogant for being alive with this fandom.Sam’s actions in season 4 got a label stuck on them and sadly will never go away and people dont bother to look beyond those labels.

    As for season 8 I dont think we will go down the demon blood route and powers the hysteria that would follow isnt worth it so although I think Sam will try to get Dean out his addiction and powers like most things with him were plot devices and unless Jeremy Carver decides that for plot purposes they are needed we wont see them.

    Comment by Sarah — May 20, 2012 @ 10:41 pm

  219. Is it just me or is it amazing that it’s a huge crime to bash Dean but no one every says anything over Sam bashing? Seems very biased to me and rather hypocritical. If you’re so opposed to bashing, why do you only bring it up when it involves your favorite?

    Comment by Olivia — May 20, 2012 @ 10:49 pm

  220. I’m not speaking for Stone120, but perhaps others feel Sam was arrogant because people warned him what he was doing was wrong. Chuck, Pamela, Dean, the Angels who (with a hidden agenda, of course) told Dean to stop him. Heck, didn’t Sam’s own conscious give him doubts?

    Yes, he was mislead and manipulated. Yes, Castiel opened the door of the panic room but I don’t recall Castiel hand-waving Sam out it. Sam chose to walk through it and leave.

    If someone had told Sam that killing Lilith would break the final seal and set Lucifer free, starting the apocalypse, do you think he would have done so? They told him what he was doing was wrong, but not why, not what it would do.

    Dean may have broken the first seal but no one warned him not to or that what he was doing would do so. He didn’t even know what he was doing or what he had done, did he? Did I miss where he was told that if he broke and started torturing, he’d be breaking the first seal?

    This argument/debate has gone on for years and will continue to do so. Of course, not everyone is going to agree, everyone has their own opinion and everyone is entitled to believe/accept the story/situation as they wish.

    It’s what makes the world go around, it’s life, it’s expected. That doesn’t make an opposing view or opinion wrong, just different and both sides are (should be) acceptable.

    So, go ahead, chew me out but I’m going back to hibernate in my cave now and look forward to a fresh start in season 8!!

    Comment by Augie — May 21, 2012 @ 3:15 am

  221. Sure it’s hypocritical to criticize Dean bashing and not Sam bashing. It’s just as hypocritical to criticize Sam bashing and not Dean bashing. I don’t think anyone can point the hypocrite finger on that score without finding one pointing right back at themselves. It’s just the way fans tend to work, at least on this site.

    Comment by yeah — May 21, 2012 @ 3:15 am

  222. Dean however was not blessed with demon blood or chosen…to be Lucifer’s only true vessel…and as we all learned when Lucifer spoke…Sam had been watched and followed since he was 6 months old…thats why a hit was put on Sam’s fiance to have been Jessica.

    SPN fans need to stop blaming Sam or Dean on what they have been through in the life long journeys..because the truth is that the angels themselves revealed to both brothers that their lives as chosen vessels was set up from b4 their births…as Cupid told Dean & Sam..Mary and John disliked eachother until he Cupid was given orders to use one of his magic arrows to make Mary fall in love with John.

    Thats another thing too that I hated about the SPN writers…that they themselves made it look like John and Marry’s love was never real…but set up by the angels. That was one fucked up idea.

    Comment by ozzie — May 21, 2012 @ 3:23 am

  223. Etain, my comment about Sam’s arrogance is in thinking his way was the only way and that Dean was too “weak”. Dean pleaded for him to leave Ruby behind and for the two of them to work together to finish Lillith off, etc. IMO, which may not be much since I don’t spend that much time reading about the show and gaining “backstage” information, the last seal was broken, not so much because Lillith died, but because of the where, when, and how. Would Lucifer’s gate have been opened if she had been killed somewhere else, no. Ruby had to get Sam to that exact place and under those exact circumstances. In the end, yeah, I get that Sam was royally manipulated by both the demons and the angels. I still believe that he would have dropped Ruby if he had heard Dean’s real message instead of the one Zachariah faked.

    And in case Sarah’s comment was in response to what I said (if not just ignore me) I don’t think Sam is arrogant in general. The comment wasn’t a Sam bashing. I don’t see the point of bashing any of the characters. Especially since as far as I am concern, those boys embodies some of the best characteristics I’ve ever had the pleasure of watching on television. Are they perfect? Despite their faults and human failings, and despite their own personal demons, they still get up everyday and fight.

    That’s why I don’t understand people complaining about Dean’s depression. Wouldn’t you be in his place. Especially since we already know Dean had issues since pre-pilot. Yes, he is depressed as hell, but he has never stopped fighting. And F$%# what Lucifer and any other damn demons have said about Dean. Isn’t their goal to make him even more insecure than he already is. Everyone knows that Dean is the only one who has even the slightest chance of reaching Sam. From the beginning, they’ve been trying to either get rid of him or incapacitate him so that he can’t help Sam out, either physically or emotionally. The same beings have said that Sam is more demonic than human, but many who bashes Dean still sees Sam as some kind of saint. So everything that is said about Dean is true but hey, they’re lying when they’re talking about Sam. That’s just hypocrisy.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 21, 2012 @ 3:24 am

  224. So, I guess hypocrisy is the theme of the day, lol.
    I guess in the end, the fact that so many of us are so passionate about this show means the actors/writers/producers are doing their jobs correctly.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 21, 2012 @ 3:30 am

  225. I agree, Stone120. There are a lot of passionate fans here, and I like reading different opinions. I think it’s the nature of fans to stick up for their favorites and gloss over their flaws, but be ready in an to defend their favorites from criticism in an instant. I don’t even think that, if one could classify that as hypocrisy, it’s really a bad thing necessarily. As long as the poster is being respectful and criticizing actions of the character rather than wholsale bashing, and I would certainly see your comments as the former and not the latter, I don’t see a problem. It is a problem is when passionate fans start pointing fingers at one another, because it ends up stifling discussion. I hope you haven’t been put off from commenting here, because I like reading what you have to say.

    Comment by yeah — May 21, 2012 @ 3:53 am

  226. Nah, I haven’t been put off. I find some of the comments amusing actually. I don’t expect nor want everyone to agree with my opinions and vice versa. I love reading well thought out comments and there have been a lot of it on here.

    Truthfully, this is the only SPN forum I’ve actively participated in. I tried going on the CW ones but when I saw all the bashing on there, I guickly left. I never quite understood how you can love one brother and hate the other since they’re so intricately linked. I guess it’s just me.

    I do feel more of an affinity towards Dean, but that’s because his entire self-hating, self-deprecating persona tags on my heart strings. Sam knows his own worth, Dean doesn’t. It seems like everybody on the show kept trying to shove it down Dean’s throat that he is worthless (I’m talking about the bad guys, and I’m including the angels in that category). I mentioned something to that affect earlier. I guess it’s psychological warfare or something.

    But it doesn’t mean that I hate Sam. I’m like Bobby, Dean was his favorite, but he would have and did give his life for both boys.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 21, 2012 @ 4:11 am

  227. Well erm ,i ask a crappy yet sensible question to some of ya, instead of shooting each other down the neck, ever wonder how’s Dean gonna survive purgatory with cass gone? repeating the question,where he’s gonna find borax,silver,salt etc in purgatory?

    Comment by luc — May 21, 2012 @ 4:15 am

  228. LOL, I was laughing when I saw your comment Luc. I don’t think Cass is gone for good. I’ve gotten used to him just disappearing without warning because he thought of something that he needed to look into and than coming back seconds later. Dean didn’t seem too worried about him leaving. But you are right. How are they, specifically Dean,, going to fight his way through purgatory? My only thoughts on that is, maybe since they are in their own environments, and I’m assuming their elemental forms, it won’t take any special weapons (like salt or silver) to kill them. Whatever is on hand in their natural habitat would be effective. Let’s assume that God made them susceptible to these weapons on Earth to give the natives a fighting chance. Maybe Dean can just pick up a stick and start swinging. One can only hope.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 21, 2012 @ 4:21 am

  229. wish to see an episode of survivor, Dean sweating out to extract salt from his sweat, get the angelic sword from Cass … mixing his urine with cass to create ammonia? to make similar cleaning liquid to borax… BBQ grill some werewolves meat for food.. or ask Cass hunt for wild bees for honey… as cass being chasing bees for the last few episodes…

    Comment by luc — May 21, 2012 @ 4:36 am

  230. @ luc #227: The first thing I thought of when I saw Dean in Purgatory was (a) not only is an eclipse needed, but the blood of a creature from Purgatory and spell (remember, Cas killed Bobby’s old flame to get the blood of the Purgatory creature); and (b) does Dean even have any weapons with him. He had the two bones in that lovely new leather coat, but nothing else was shown. It’s going to be interesting to see what Carver does with that.

    I wonder if Carver will write the first episode of the season? That’s been the tradition in every season so far.

    I am really curious about the first few episodes of S8. I don’t know what exactly is planned for Sam. Crowley said he was to keep the Levi from organizing, yet Dean is missing and Sam doesn’t even know where he is, and Dean’s in Purgatory, it looks like without an weapons.

    It looks like to me this is kind of a set-up for Dean’s Hell story where Sam wasn’t able to get Dean out. I don’t expect it to be a re-do, like SG attempted so many times and failed. In fact, I’d be thrilled if it was and that this time Sam did manage to rescue Dean. And…I have no idea why Cas was left with Dean. I still wished that had not been done. I do expect Carver to come up with some story for Cas to where he won’t be such an annoyance…at least, since he’s back, I hope that is what happens.

    I also wonder how many episodes the brothers will be in their separate worlds? I’m not opposed to that at all, if it’s not a total Dean/Cas with Sam off on a side story.

    Comment by Sheri — May 21, 2012 @ 4:58 am

  231. S7 E23 finale title is all wrong.. ‘ Survival of the Fittest’ does not suit the episode. Agreed that the title should be called ‘The nun Boning the Dick’ ?

    Comment by luc — May 21, 2012 @ 5:02 am

  232. I normally don’t post comments on here but reading what other people have put I feel I have to.
    First off, Castiel is a fantastic character who keeps evolving with the show. Do people not realise that he is basically the winchesters in angel form, making deals that turn out to be a really bad move, rebelling against his father and trying to do what he thinks is the right thing. The relationship between him and Dean is brilliant in my view, he pulled Dean out of hell for god sake and in doing so left a mark on Dean’s soul so naturally they are linked.
    The finale was awesome. The fact that Sam is now completely alone with nobody to turn to is genius. Couple that with the fact the Dean is stuck in Purgatory with every monster he’s killed is a great move, now the makers can bring back anyone they want be is Azazael, Ruby or maybe even Gabriel.
    So stop whining all you depressing people out there. This show has provided you with hours of free entertainment and a fantastic storyline. If you don’t like it then don’t watch it, believe me it’s your loss.

    Comment by Darkstarsol — May 21, 2012 @ 5:53 am

  233. Sheri – I believe it will be a “total Dean/Cas with Sam off to the side” story.

    Now, while I wouldn’t have dumped Dean in Purgatory myself, now that it’s been done, I think they need to do the story justice. For that reason, I think Dean should be there for more than 1 or 2 episodes like so many others feel. I personally don’t want the brothers apart, but since they went there with the story, I want them to tell a story.

    I don’t want a lame, half-hearted story like they did with Sam’s wall collapsing or Dean’s relationship with Lisa/Ben. If collapsing Sam’s wall was going to have NO impact on him, then why did they do it? If being with Lisa/Ben wasn’t going to do anything positive for Dean like renewing his interest in hunting, then why do it? To have a true impact on Sam and Dean, then Dean needs to be in Purgatory for awhile, and I think he will be. Since this is the story, I want to see an actual story – a beginning, middle, and end.

    I still think it was a mistake to dump Dean there because this is a supernatural realm. Will Dean be able to find food, water, and shelter there? His human body was placed there so I assume he still needs to eat, sleep, etc. If Purgatory is just like Earth then I’ll be disappointed. But if it isn’t, then Dean can’t last there for too long by himself.
    I don’t know what to think about it. I’m not excited about it. Hopefully, it plays out better than I think.

    I’ll be okay if some thought is put into the arc for the season and into good, compelling stories for BOTH brothers.

    Comment by Lisa — May 21, 2012 @ 6:35 am

  234. @212. 220. It’s so easy like 1+1=2 : Arrogant or no, there’s no last broken seal without a first one.

    Now…after four seasons, Why are you talking about the apocalypse? I mean, REALLY? ..that helps now?

    Comment by Sol — May 21, 2012 @ 6:37 am

  235. There was Bobby bashing, Sam bashing, Cas bashing, fan bashing, Sera bashing and probably a few others up thread before that particular comment dissing Dean. We (general we)don’t so much hate bashing, we just don’t like it when it involves our favorite. It’s very irritating, isn’t it?

    But here’s the thing, the only people we are not allowed to bash here are each other per the terms of service. But I don’t believe every negative comment is bashing and it would be nice if we could accept that some people aren’t going to like (and maybe even hate passionately) what we like.

    Comment by beth w — May 21, 2012 @ 6:54 am

  236. I’m so ready for evil!Dean since season 6.
    Somebody get Jensen out of his comfort-zone acting….He’s amazing…Bruce Willis LOVED Jared’s soulless!Sam acting and that’s why he wanted him in diehard.

    Badass Dean is gone….bring him back.

    Comment by Sol — May 21, 2012 @ 7:29 am

  237. Seconded. Love, love badass Dean.

    Comment by beth w — May 21, 2012 @ 7:44 am

  238. Stone120 – I don’t recall the episodes entirely, but was it established that Lilith had to be killed at that church? I just thought she needed to be killed. If that’s the case, then it really doesn’t matter that Sam killed her with Ruby rather than Dean. The killing of her, in and of itself, would have caused the Apocalypse. I’ll have to rewatch to see if Lilith had to be killed in a certain place.

    In any event, neither Sam nor Dean were responsible for starting the Apocalypse. That was all on the angels. Zachariah told Dean that they – the angels – had “allowed” 65 seals to break. Zachariah made it seem like they could have prevented the breaking of the seals if they wanted, but they didn’t. The angels wanted to jumpstart the Apocalypse, and they succeeded through manipulation and lies.

    I’ve always faulted the angels, not the brothers, for the Apocalypse.

    As far as Sam’s self-esteem is concerned. I think it depends on whatever plot they’re currently writing. In Season 5, Sam described himself as being “less” than everyone. It made sense to me. Sam was arrogant in Season 4. He made huge mistakes. I could see him doubting himself and his self-esteem taking a huge hit. In Season 6, he seemed to feel a great deal of guilt re: what Soulless did. He defines himself as a “freak.” I think he may have some self-esteem issues, but you never know w/this show. In Season 7, he has no guilt or anything. How Sam reached that point, I’ll never know. The show just seems to change Sam to suit whatever plot they’re writing!

    Comment by Lisa — May 21, 2012 @ 7:59 am

  239. I watched the impala scene, and it really looked like 2 people! I think cass got them out while Meg was getting the attention. Looked like Dean was driving on the road, good to see that. Interesting point about cas knowing what was going to happen. A deal with Crowley? I dont know, but I hope he stays on the good side now, and doesn’t work with other people.

    Comment by Robin — May 21, 2012 @ 8:20 am

  240. Lisa, I think it was at the beginning of Lucifer Rising at the St. Mary’s convent where YED killed the nuns and used a ritual to communicate with Lucifer. Before he killed the nuns he mentioned how he’s been looking for a way to free his father and he believed he found the spot he says that finally found the the spot where his father’s cage door opens. That scene is also where/when Lucifer told YED that only Lilith could free her (meaning her blood I guess) and that YED will need one very special child in order to accomplish the goal. That’s where the psychic kids idea was born. The episode started at that location and ended there. Sam killed Lilith at the convent in the same room that Azazel had found. So yeah, that specific location was key in freeing Lucifer.

    In the grand scheme of things, the angels (or at least the higher ranking ones)were responsible for allowing the apocalypse to start. Dean could have been rescued earlier, the angels could have killed Ruby at any time, etc…. My comments were about the roles each of the boys played and I guess in a way the mistakes that were made. At the end of the day, both Winchesters were manipulated.

    My comments about the seals were more of a philosophical debate. I read some comments above about the boys both being guilty and I put my two cents in.

    You raised some good points about Sam and his self-esteem. In general, I think he is in a more positive place than Dean though. That comment in season 5, I think it might have been in Point of No Return, was heartbreaking. And yes, his self-esteem did take a hit after the whole Lucifer rising ordeal. I think he always thought he was smarter than to allow himself to be manipulated. It brings to mind his comment to Dean when Bela tricked him after that ball. In a way that kind of came back to bite him in the butt since Ruby screwed him over on a larger scale. Later on in season 7 (Defending Your Life), Sam said that Osiris didn’t go after him because he felt that although he had done a lot of bad stuff the time he spent in hell was his atonement (wildly paraphrasing here). So that’s the reason they gave for him not feeling guilty. I don’t really get how that also covered soulless Sam issues, but oh well.

    The freak thing was at the beginning because of the way they were raised. Dean always responded that they were both freaks. To Dean that was a good thing, lol. Later on, I guess it took on an even more sinister tone.

    Heck, you’ve got to feel sorry for those boys.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 21, 2012 @ 8:54 am

  241. Stone120 – Okay . . . I haven’t actually re-watched the 4th season finale again, so I couldn’t remember if they said Lilith had to be killed at that church. Thanks for the reminder!

    Don’t get me wrong. I love Sam, but he made a ton of mistakes in the 4th season. A ton! He never should have listened to Ruby on anything she said to him. It didn’t help matters that Kripke didn’t bother to take the time to explain why Sam was even speaking to Ruby given her horrific comments to Dean in NRFTW. I know many say Sam was depressed and suicidal, but I never found that to be a satisfactory explanation for his hanging w/Ruby while Dean was burning in Hell. I have always felt that Kripke sacrificed Sam for Ruby. He didn’t care that Sam looked like a moron associating w/Ruby and drinking her demon blood b/c it advanced the plot. I honestly don’t think Sam – no matter how sad and depressed he was – would have taken up w/Ruby. It rang false to me.

    I don’t really see Sam as being manipulated. Ruby’s a demon, and Sam knew better than to ever trust a word out of her mouth. Dean was definitely manipulated by the angels. That said, I still blame the angels for the Apocalypse. They caused it. They wanted it to happen, so it did.

    Yes, I remember Sam saying he no longer felt guilt in DYL, and it upset me. We never saw Sam reach the point where he decided he had paid his dues in Hell. I liked the point Sam made, but I wish he had been treated to his journey there. I feel like every chance to give Sam some emotional depth or emotional moments are taken away. Lately, I’ve been feeling like Sam is a robot w/no feelings about any of things that happens to him. He wasn’t angry w/Castiel, which I fully understand b/c Sam has made colossal mistakes and can relate, but that’s just one more time where Sam is rendered “emotionless.” He handled the hallucinations so well that I barely knew he even had a problem. I read that scenes that were focused on his struggling w/the hallucinations were cut from episodes. I don’t know. It just seems like the past writers have wanted to restrict Sam to the mytharc and Dean to the emotion. Both characters can have both.

    Yes, I think Sam definitely sees himself as a freak, and he has felt that way for a few years now. He told Dean in that horrible Amy episode that he had accepted his status as a “freak.” Sam sees himself, or at least for that episode saw himself as an outsider, as different from everyone else. I think that may have an impact on his self-esteem, but we don’t know. The show doesn’t spend too much time exploring Sam’s feelings. We get bits and pieces here and there. Maybe that will change w/JC, but I’m not getting my hopes up.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 21, 2012 @ 11:44 am

  242. Imagine a season 8 premiere with sarah michelle gellar guest appearance ,that would b a tv ratings viewership puller.

    Comment by luc — May 21, 2012 @ 12:30 pm

  243. Augie@220. This is the point that I have difficulty with. All people were telling Sam to do was ‘stop’; stop using your abilities, stop exorcising demons, stop saving lives. Sam was led to believe that he could stop the Apocalypse by killing Lilith so should Sam stop trying to do that just because Dean wanted him to stop? While the angels were all about burning towns, Sam was saving lives. Is it any wonder that he felt that his way was the right way, the only way? He was not given one valid reason ‘why’ he should stop, he was just told ‘to’ stop.

    And again, put yourself in Sam’s shoes. He was constantly told that what he was doing was wrong, yet everybody wanted the same result as he did; they all wanted Lilith dead and the Apocalypse stopped so why should Sam stop doing what he was doing when what he was doing was their best, and possibly only, chance at killing Lilith? It was a case of ‘Stop trying to kill Lilith so that we can kill Lilith’!!
    Stone120@223. But why do you feel that Sam arrogant in thinking that his way was the only way? What was the other way? Lilith was not going to be easy to kill. She could snap necks without even blinking and it was assumed that she would do the same to anyone who came near her. Dean also wanted Lilith dead and told Sam while Sam was in the panic room that he was going to kill her without him. Sam had experienced the power of Lilith, he had done extensive research into her and he knew damn well what she was capable of. Sam also knew that he was, to a certain extent, immune from her powers which gave him an advantage that Dean didn’t have. He had the ability to kill extremely powerful demons (Alastair) and was not affected by Ruby’s powers. That’s not arrogance, that’s fact, so was Sam the best man for the job?
    Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that Sam wanted to kill Lilith so that Dean wouldn’t have to, because he was terrified of losing him again? The protective attitude isn’t solely confined to Dean. Sam asked Dean to come with him; Dean was the one who put conditions on his involvement therefore from Sam’s POV there was nothing wrong with doing what he was doing, the only problem was that Dean didn’t want Ruby involved but Sam needed Ruby involved. She had gotten him this far without (as far as he knew) lying to him. Hell, even Dean worked with her and partially trusted her during seasons 3 and 4.
    Add to that, Sam knew that time was of the essence. 65 seals had been broken and it was believed by all that Lilith was going to break the final seal. Why on earth would Sam wait? (Was Sam led to believe that Lilith was going to break the final seal that night in that Convent?)
    Was there a touch of ‘I don’t think you’ll be able to do this’ about it? Yes but ‘would’ Dean have been able to do it? (And isn’t that remarkably similar to Dean’s excuse for killing Amy in 7.03?) Taking the physical ability out of it, would Dean be mentally able to kill the demon that had ensured his forty years in hell? Why is it arrogant to think that a man who had endured 30 years of relentless torture and another ten years having his humanity stripped away by torturing, would be weak in this instance? It’s common sense. Would you send a POW straight into the melting pot? Add to that, Dean was not only under tremendous pressure from the angels but he was having nightmares and drinking. May I ask, Stone120, were you Sam, would you trust Dean to be able to kill Lilith in this instance?
    I know that arrogance is always going to be listed as the main reason why Sam broke the final seal. The writers strike of season 3 and lack of anything even resembling a Sam POV in seasons 4 and 5 (and 6 and 7) have ensured that, but I feel that is quite dismissive to cite that as ‘the’ reason why Sam broke the final seal as it contrary to everything that we had learned about Sam up until that point. It does not address the depths of despair that Sam surely sank to while Dean was in hell, or the trials he suffered while making his decision to sacrifice what was left of his self-respect and his morals and drink demon blood. The Winchester way is all about self sacrifice, John did it, Dean did it, why should Sam be the exception to that? What on earth drove a man who spent his life hunting demons, whose life had been destroyed by demons, to suddenly sleep with one and drink their blood? What drove a man who idolised his brother, who followed him and looked up to him his entire life, who had taken orders from him pretty much his entire life, to then turn from his brother? What drove a man who, his entire life, had tried to do the right thing to go against absolutely everything he stood for? I don’t think arrogance even begins to explain it. The nearest we got to an explanation was Sam saying ‘I’m just trying to take this curse and make something good out of it, because I have to”. Is that arrogant? Not to me. In fact, it sounds like a very Winchester type thing to do.

    Comment by Etain — May 21, 2012 @ 12:57 pm

  244. I’m sorry, that is one hideously large block of text. I hit the stupid submit button by accident so there’s little to no spacing in it. Dang.

    Comment by Etain — May 21, 2012 @ 1:01 pm

  245. Points worth noting Etain, we all noe how the story went out,but in the story, Sam did not noe lilith was the last seal till ruby told him,he was jus trying his best in his own way, self sacrificing, to make use of the curse ,as u said it,the winchester way.Char development also hits at dan always protective of sam, Sam in a sort of naive? way, wanna have a chance to protect his big brotherbck.John said it before,they all are each other achilles heels.
    I dun think Sam arrogant, more like naively stubborn instead.
    That’s wats endears us to SN in the first place.
    Overall spanning 7 seasons, moral of the story:
    Be it all the bickering,arguments,when times get rough, blood is thicker than water, family comes first.

    Comment by luc — May 21, 2012 @ 1:26 pm

  246. just for your information- jensen is directing the first episode of season 8.

    Comment by animal — May 21, 2012 @ 1:36 pm

  247. Guys I don’t think when Demons or Angels die they go to purgatory, I think they just cease to be. A demon is a mutated and tortured soul, Angels don’t seen to have souls and the reason purgatory exists is to house the levis. Eve may have been one or related to one but the point I’m trying to make is monsters were stated to not have souls that’s why they don’t go to heaven or hell.

    Comment by Tal — May 21, 2012 @ 1:36 pm

  248. supernatural adjusted up to 0.7-steady as rock this show-even with sera at the helm. i’m just happy to hear jensen will be directing the first episode-i know i will be watching because i know for sure there will be no destiel in it!!! thank gawd for small favors. unlike with sera-she throws it in whenever she can. have i said i am glad she is gone??? yea i know-i have. thank gawd she is gone. lol.happy dance!!

    Comment by animal — May 21, 2012 @ 3:21 pm

  249. Etain, every thing that you said about Sam’s reason for teaming up with Ruby was correct, although I don’t see what sleeping with her had to do with anything, but I digress. He wanted to protect his brother, he wanted to save the world. Yes. But the way he went about everything was wrong and Sam knew that. Even before Ruby’s big reveal, he knew that. “I’m just trying to take this curse and make something good out of it, because I have to”. Exactly what evil was he doing before that? I think this was just another Ruby fed propaganda to get him in line. Real life example, in theory, Vigilantism is a good thing, but is it really moral or legal? No, not when you look at all the fine points. Yes, something crappy did happen to Sam, but he was not the only person affected by it. Both his father’s and brother’s life were affected by the “curse”, heck, he got to “escape” the curse for awhile when the rest of his family was still knee deep in it. That line sounded good, but in the grand scheme of things, *shrugs*, I don’t buy it.

    When Chuck was speaking with Sam, he said that Sam knew what he was doing was wrong. Sam didn’t disagree. In fact, Sam’s response was, I don’t think I can stop. “Red Flag”. Pamela who couldn’t see but felt what happened in the room the day she died warned him that thing weren’t right. She wasn’t following the company line cause I’m pretty sure she missed the memo from the angels. Heck, later in season 5 I think even Sam admitted that part of what happened was due to his arrogance. Does that make him evil, no.

    So if you had a family member who was doing drugs, would you be ok with his dealer hanging around? Yes Dean had conditions, actually, he only had one condition, leave behind the skanky witch. Why? Because he had just days before witness his brother feasting on demon’s blood like a crazed maniac and said skanky witch was the one responsible. Dean was only trying to protect Sam, and that was after Sam had thrown him to the ground in defense of Ruby. Well, as you know things went downhill from there and both brothers did and said stuff that shouldn’t have been done or said.

    In the end, Sam has bad characteristics and arrogance and pride were always two. Just like for Dean there are certain things and certain times when he can be downright immoral. He is reckless and often acts/speak before thinking. Those negative characteristics doesn’t change or lessen the good that both have in them. Actually the good so outweigh the bad that I have no problem realizing and acknowledging the bad. I love the characters regardless because it’s about loving the whole not the parts or things that we want to see in them. The writers didn’t write the characters as saints, one of the most interesting thing about them is that they are NOT saints. Dean the poster boy for dysfunctional is my all time favorite television character, thorns and weeds included.

    Although, I do wish more time was spent in explaining why a lot of things, including the Sam/Ruby fiasco happened. The closest I can come with an explanation is the events of Mystery Spot. And as I told a friend, I was never pissed or disappointed in Sam for what happened in season 4 because that episode pretty much told us how bad Dean’s death would be for Sam.

    I was not picking on Sam, just saying what I felt about the character’s actions during that season. You don’t have to agree.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 21, 2012 @ 3:49 pm

  250. @Tal: I agree about the demons and angels. Purgatory were not made for them. I don’t know what happens to angels, but for some reason, I think the demons and monsters that were killed with the Colt and Ruby’s knife just seize to exist. I only say that because supposedly, being killed with those two weapons is different from being exorcised.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 21, 2012 @ 4:08 pm

  251. I never said it wrong to criticize a character. Sure, both boys have done some questionable things. Both tend to be arrogant and sometimes short sited, and addictive to “substances” .But to call a character “pathetic”, now that is bashing.

    Comment by twinster — May 21, 2012 @ 4:41 pm

  252. I don’t know, Stone120. Of the two, I don’t recall Dean ever making the bad or wrong choice. The writers usually leave that to Sam. My mom occasionally watches, and she’ll always ask me, “What did Sam do this time?” She refers to him as the “bad” brother.

    People are already speculating if Sam is going to do something “bad” to help Dean, if he’s going to go down the “wrong” path again. Some in the audience are ready and willing to crucify and villify Sam if he does make the wrong choice.

    It would be new to see Dean make the “wrong” decision. He never has. And I say that as a fan of both brothers. I agreed w/Dean all throughout Season 4. I agreed w/him on killing Amy and think he should have wasted her kid too. I haven’t agreed w/him punching Sam on the occasions where he has, but Dean has never, IMO, royally screwed up like Sam has.

    But that’s JMO.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 21, 2012 @ 5:29 pm

  253. I think the demon deal to get Sam back was a bad choice (even selfish according to Dean) and it inadvertently launched the whole dang thing. What does Dean say now after the screw up in Appointment in Samarra: don’t mess with the natural order of things. Sammy screwed up too. But I don’t hold anything against either guy. I feel for both of them. Their own grief contributed to some poor decision making, but there was some pretty extraordinary manipulation from angels and demons going on. Actually, I think Sam’s bad choice was the last in a series of bad choices from Mary to John to Dean to Cas and then Sam.

    Comment by beth w — May 21, 2012 @ 6:03 pm

  254. I was going to mention that the demon deal to bring Sam back was Dean’s one epic bad choice, but somebody else already beat me to it. Than again SPN would have ended if Dean had not made that deal.

    In the grand scheme of things (if all of the event leading to Swan Song are taken together), the whole thing was launched years before either boys were born. The demons and angels needed Dean in hell and he was pretty much unintentionally trained by John from the day Mary died to make the choice(s) that would lend him in hell. Someone I was discussing this said that YED took a great gamble by letting Sam get killed, but since everyone already know the length Dean would go to for Sam, it was a safe bet. In the end both boys had a role to play and one way or the other, Sam would have survived and Dean would have ended up in hell to break the first seal.

    Seriously, Cas and Sam’s choices were lesser mistakes over Dean and John’s (jury is still out on Mary’s)? Interesting. Besides, John’s intention was only to give YED the Colt, exchanging his soul for Dean’s life was forced on him and frankly I don’t see a parent who wouldn’t have done the same thing in his shoes.

    I don’t want either boys making bad decisions. They’ve all learned their lessons these past years and frankly, I just can’t see them repeating the sames mistakes over again after all they’ve been through.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 21, 2012 @ 6:29 pm

  255. Really liked the Season 7 finale-thought it moved the story along to where we have settled one or two questions and have a dozen more to figure out in Season 8.

    Loved the death scene of Dick Roman-thought it was long enough and tough enough. Glad he got killed-he was a scary monster. I do wonder about the other Leviathans. I know they are not wandering about the earth like mindless robots. So, what are they doing? In that conference room at Sucracorp, there were 10 or so Leviathans-can one of them take over or are they not able to?

    I think only monsters that have no souls go to purgatory- humans that do bad things would not end up in purgatory, they would head either to hell or heaven. Angels would go back to heaven when they die. Demons would go back to hell-they were made by Lucifer and they reside in hell.
    Monsters like the alpha vamp, as he said “with no soul” would go to purgatory. So, those are the monsters that Dean and Cas would face.

    I have no idea where Cas went to but if he went willingly, then he is probably looking for a way out or help. I can’t imagine Dean lasting very long in purgatory without help.

    It seems that the story is lining up that at least one of the bad guys in Season 8 will be Crowley-he sure has a lot of power. I wonder if he wants Kevin Tran to decipher more “words of God” tablets or is that one tablet the only one that Kevin can translate? And, I guess Crowley wants Meg just to torture.

    I liked Meg a lot in this season-she is snarky and smart and tough. Too bad she is a demon.

    The connection that Cas seems to feel to Meg sounds one sided from what Meg has said -“you take him, I can’t anymore”. But she has lots of opportunities to leave and yet she stays with him-even though Cas could find her in a second. She also does not seem to be double crossing Cas or Sam or Dean. At least not yet. So, what will her story be in the new season? I do hope she comes back.

    Love Sam. Love Dean. They both work to do their job but there is so much pain in it. Their relationship with Bobby is a case in point. I knew Bobby would stick around-the job wasn’t finished and he loves the guys and wants to help.
    But as the episodes began to show his rage at Dick and his lack of being able to control that rage, I began to realize he had to go. And perhaps that was the point of his story. The love that Bobby had for Sam and Dean and they for him, not being able to say a proper good-bye to Bobby, his wanting to help and protect-all wiped away with his rage. He was able to understand, in the end, and to redeem himself. I think his story was good the second time around because of his redemption. And his message to the guys.

    Several of the comments said that Jensen would be directing the first episode in season 8. Where was this information gotten from?
    Also, do we have an exact date of when season 8 starts?

    Comment by EireneS — May 21, 2012 @ 6:46 pm

  256. I’m tired. I’ve tried to fight the good fight for the brothers, but it seems lost. It appears the Destiel faction has won. I concede defeat. Just tell us, the Sam-fans/brother-fans, when we should check out. I don’t say this with hate/passion, sadly. That’s the tragic part; I have no passion left for this show. The opposite of love (that I felt for Seasons 1-3) is not hate; it is disinterest. I have a habit of losing interest in shows in their last or second to the last season (example – after Seasons 2 of Fringe and Castle; since Hudy of House). But I returned for the end of House, and I’m glad I did. Note to writers of a bromance: watch the last eps. of House and Nip/Tuck. They both ended well. House gave the guys a road-trip, Cancer-is-boring, happy ending; Nip\Tuck showed us one character letting another one go for his own good, with love. So if I come back to SPN, I expect to see a good ending for our boys (minus the dreadful angel). OK?

    Comment by RS — May 21, 2012 @ 7:02 pm

  257. I’ve always liked Meg, even when I wanted her dead. This season’s “you don’t try to kill me and I won’t try to kill you for the moment” truce with the Winchesters was well played. Although I must admit I kept waiting for her to double cross them.

    I didn’t like the Cas maybe crushing on Meg thing. It just seemed unrealistic to me, especially since supposedly the angel’s could see the demon’s true forms. The other thing I didn’t see them deal with was Cass’ time as Emmanuel. He was married. What happened to the wife?

    I wish they had allowed Bobby to go in peace from the get go. I just felt that it caused the boys more pain losing him a second time around. But the having a chance to say a proper good-bye is a good point.

    I don’t think there’s an exact date out for season 8 except October 2012. All the previous seasons except season three premiered in September. Season 3 was in the first week of October. Let’s hope they do the same for season 8.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 21, 2012 @ 7:20 pm

  258. I like Cas (nowhere as much as I love Dean and Sam). I never saw Destiel in their relationship. Guys can have guy friends, and have a special bond that is not sexual. Cas has never given Dean “googly eyes” or love struck eyes. There have been jokes about the two, but that is all it is! People can like, love Cas without it being “Destiel”. I mean, I don’t see Sam and Dean’s relationship as “wincest” even though Zachariah, and Gabriel (I think Gabriel did?) alluded to it. I’m sorry some people have lost their passion, if they have, bye and hopefully they will find another show to love.

    Many of us here, still love the show, the characters, and look eagerly to what may happen in Season 8. I read it somewhere (can’t remember where) that Jensen Ackles is directing the first ep, and I’m really stoked about that. I just wish we didn’t have to wait until October (and I’m praying it is early Oct!). Perhaps Carver needs more time to work on the direction he needs to go? Maybe we won’t have long hiatus because of the delay.

    I’m with stone120: I don’t want to see the boys make bad decisions. I’d love to see a badass Dean, but he doesn’t need to be evil to do it, to me that’s just lazy writing. Make Dean the rightious badass hunter that all fear.

    I’d love to see Sam focus (and use that genourmous brain of his) on getting his brother back, and it would be awesome if it is Sam, and not Cas that gets Dean out of Purgatory. Really would love to see one of the brothers save the other instead of someone else. It would be great if he figures it out on his own. He can do it!!!

    Looking forward to October!

    Comment by twinster — May 21, 2012 @ 7:27 pm

  259. Okay, but Sam was in the room too. So…. why wasn’t he transported as well?? Someone wanna explain that?

    Comment by Jeff — May 21, 2012 @ 7:53 pm

  260. Sam definitely has the brain power and determination to get Dean out. I wonder how long it will take him to start looking at Purgatory as the most likely place for Dean to have ended up? I can’t remember right now if Crowley hinted at it.

    My worries are that, Sam will have his hands full dealing with the remaining Levis. Crowley’s crew was taking care of the ones in the immediate vicinity, but I got the impression that he was telling Sam that he’ll have to deal with the rest of them. Did those other big shots leave before Dick was killed? That would be a plus, but the Winchester’s luck would say otherwise. It might take Sam longer to organize a rescue mission because of that. The other thing that have me worried is the passage of time issue. Will this be another hell deal?

    I am worrying like a mother hen, but I can’t help it.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 21, 2012 @ 7:56 pm

  261. Not sure, maybe because Sam and Kevin were too far away. It didn’t seem like the black goo from the explosion had reached their location (but I’d have to double check). Or maybe only those who were physically linked to the weapon at the time of the kill were transported. Dean was holding on to the bone, Castiel was holding on to Dick, and Dick, well he became very personally acquainted with the bone, so all three were in contact at one point. Wild speculation on my part but the only thing that makes sense to my abused brain right now.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 21, 2012 @ 8:03 pm

  262. @stone120: I believe you have something there about why Dean and Cas were transported to Purgatory. Also if you rewatch the scene, only Dean, Cas, and Dick are in the wave length (or whatever energy was caused by Dean killing Dick). Sam was not.

    Comment by twinster — May 21, 2012 @ 8:35 pm

  263. Yeah, I just watched the scene again, and Crowley says that the bone had a “kick” and should come with a “warning label”. I’d say that’s why Dean was transported, and I guess I’ll just use your theory as to why Castiel was transported also. Still not the greatest writing though. Also, I wonder why the bone sends the user(s) to Purgatory anyhow? Oh well. Done caring. Just want Season 8 to start already.

    AS for why the Arch Angels didn’t come to help the Prophet, that has been explained perfectly for me, so I’m cool now.

    As for the remaining Levi now being lost and with no organization, that’s fine, but lets not forget that earlier in the season it was explained that even though cutting off their heads does damage, it really only slows them down and over time, their heads become re attached. Wasn’t there even an episode (I think it was the witch episode) where they said they were going to encase the body and head in concrete, separate from one another?

    I guess my issue is that earlier in the season, they enforced the issue that Levi’s are very very very hard to kill permanently, and now with Dick gone it’s like “Oh they are just like other monsters…) No. The process of killing one is still more complicated (according to earlier episodes) than any other monster. And there are still thousands of them out there. Who is to say one won’t step up and re-organize? Hell, they may even form competing factions, similar to what happened in Heaven with the Angels once their leader (Michael, then Raphael) were killed.

    Comment by Jeff — May 21, 2012 @ 8:43 pm

  264. Don’t you guys seriously remember what Crowley said at the end?

    “I have an army of demons surrounding the building, mopping off the rest of them. Cut off the head and the body will die after all.”

    … after that he starts talking about how they are nothing but hard to kill monsters now. Doubt we’ll be seeing too much of them now.

    Comment by muub — May 21, 2012 @ 8:59 pm

  265. He actually doesn’t say “Mopping off(sic) the rest of them”. After Kevin Says “Chompers any minute, Sam” Crowley just says “Not to worry. I have a SMALL army of Demons outside. Cut off the head and the body will flounder, after all”.

    I’m not saying we’ll have some main story line dealing with them, all I’m saying is that they were played up all season long as the most dangerous monster they’ve ever gone up against, and there’s still thousands of them out there, and they still eat humans. Still dangerous. If they just completely forget about them I find that too convenient and contrived.

    Comment by Jeff — May 21, 2012 @ 9:24 pm

  266. And one more thing, what does Crowley say to Sam? “One (something) before sunrise, you’d be in a (something) as well…” ?? Don’t have subtitles so I have no idea

    Comment by Jeff — May 21, 2012 @ 9:46 pm

  267. @249
    “Etain, every thing that you said about Sam’s reason for teaming up with Ruby was correct, although I don’t see what sleeping with her had to do with anything, but I digress.”
    Given that this event is, even today, used as one of tools by which to beat Sam, the show’s decision to have Sam sleep with Ruby was intentional so there had to be a reason for it. Though again, people are only looking at ‘what’ he did and not ‘why’ he might have done it.

    Ruby was a lifeline for Sam in season 4, perhaps sleeping with her was a symbol of how far Sam had fallen, how depressed and full of self loathing he was, how much he considered himself a monster, perhaps as punishment for failing to save Dean, perhaps it was done to show how isolated from everyone Sam had become. He was rejected by pretty much everyone bar Ruby. The angels considered him an abomination and Dean never trusted Sam in season 4; practically the first words he said to Sam were an accusation. He told Sam more than once that he was a monster and that if he didn’t know him he would want to hunt him. Dean believed everything that the angels told him about Sam and then judged, and treated, him accordingly. Perhaps having Sam sleep with Ruby was a sign of how divided they were. Maybe Sam did it to know, even for a few brief moments, that he was alive.

    “He wanted to protect his brother, he wanted to save the world. Yes. But the way he went about everything was wrong and Sam knew that.”
    Wrong in terms of action or wrong in terms of intent? Doing wrong in order to do right is the Winchester way, and that started long before Sam. Dean sold his soul. Wrong action, right intent. John did the same thing. In season 4, Sam was slowly selling his soul. The action of using his powers might have been ‘wrong’ but the intent was right; save lives, stop the Apocalypse. And if things turned out the way Sam had hoped then the Apocalypse would have been averted, would what he was doing have been ‘wrong’ then?

    And stone120, when you’re trying to save the world it’s not as if you have a choice of three options and you pick the nicest one. They were chasing their heels when it came to the seal breaking. The place was awash with demons. Sam had the ability to exorcise and kill demons without harming the host. ‘Saving people….’, the mantra of the Winchesters. Sam was trying to save lives the best, the only, way he could. Regardless of how he went about it, explain to me again why that is wrong.

    “Even before Ruby’s big reveal, he knew that. “I’m just trying to take this curse and make something good out of it, because I have to”. Exactly what evil was he doing before that? I think this was just another Ruby fed propaganda to get him in line.”
    Sam was using his visions to try and save lives long before Ruby got involved so she didn’t feed him that. At the end of Metamorphosis Sam said he was going to stop using the powers, and he did. However, it was then revealed that Lilith was going to break the final seal so he started using them again. Was this wrong?

    “Real life example, in theory, Vigilantism is a good thing, but is it really moral or legal? No. But that doesn’t count for an awful lot.”
    Sam and Dean already ‘are’ vigilantes. Is what they are doing moral and legal? No. However, for them, the ends justify the means, as always.

    “Yes, something crappy did happen to Sam, but he was not the only person affected by it. Both his father’s and brother’s life were affected by the “curse”, heck, he got to “escape” the curse for awhile when the rest of his family was still knee deep in it.”
    The ‘curse’ referred to in this instance was the demon blood, not hunting. Hunting was a choice and up until season 2 Dean loved it and found a huge purpose is it. How is that a curse? The curse aka the demon blood was in Sam, he was the reason his family had to live as they did, why his mother died, why Jessica died and why Dean went to hell. That was more than just ‘crappy’. No matter where he was or what he tried to do, he couldn’t escape it.

    “That line sounded good, but in the grand scheme of things, *shrugs*, I don’t buy it.”
    That line was pretty much the only one that went part way to explaining why Sam did what he did in season 4 and you just shrug it off……

    “When Chuck was speaking with Sam, he said that Sam knew what he was doing was wrong. Sam didn’t disagree. In fact, Sam’s response was, I don’t think I can stop.”
    Yep, but at that stage it wasn’t about being physically unable to stop, more that he had to keep doing what he was doing because the stakes were so high. If he stopped what he was doing, then he would not be able to kill Lilith and if she broke the final seal, then via his inaction, he would be just as responsible for the Apocalypse.

    “So if you had a family member who was doing drugs, would you be ok with his dealer hanging around?” If it meant that cutting off that dealer could bring about my brothers death and/or the end of the world, then yes, I would. I’d support him through it (and actually talk to him, try to find out why he did this) but I wouldn’t issue ultimatums to him. I wouldn’t force him into detox and I’d try to remember that he was still my brother and not just some monster that was there to be stopped.

    “Yes Dean had conditions, actually, he only had one condition, leave behind the skanky witch…..”
    Can you put yourself in Sam’s shoes here for a moment? Let’s say that for over a year, only one person was there for you. You had a common goal, killing Lilith. She came when you called, provided support and most importantly, gave you the means and intel to kill Lilith and stop the Apocalypse.

    On the other hand you have Dean, who spent 40 years in hell, who doesn’t trust you, who was willing to let you die, called you a monster more than once and told you that if he didn’t know you he’d want to hunt you, who seemed more interested in saving his brother than saving the world, who imprisoned you against your will, who forced you through one of the most horrific things of your life (two actually, the detox and having to watch him be torn apart by Hellhounds. Oh, and knowing that he was going to spend an eternity in hell because of you), who was getting his ear bent by a town smiting angel from the day he came back, and then he asks you to abandon the one thing you need to end the Apocalypse, would you do it? Taking aside what happened after, and looking at it logically, would you get rid of Ruby?

    For the same reasons that Dean choose Crowley over Sam in ‘The Devil You Know’, Sam choose Ruby here; because it was necessary to get the job done.

    Add to that, in season 3 we saw Lilith dangle the carrot of saving Dean is front of Sam as a means of getting him to work with her. He refused her help back then because she was a demon and look at what it cost him. Perhaps from his POV if he turned from her again then, for him, the odds are the end result would be just as bad.

    “In the end, Sam has bad characteristics and arrogance and pride were always two.”
    ‘Arrogance and pride’ are evident in all Winchesters, not just Sam. However, these are not defining traits so I certainly don’t think they should be used as a reason to explain away why Sam did what he did. In the same way that there was more to Dean being depressed when he went to say yes to Michael, there was much, much more to Sam drinking demon and using his powers than mere arrogance.

    “And as I told a friend, I was never pissed or disappointed in Sam for what happened in season 4 because that episode pretty much told us how bad Dean’s death would be for Sam.”
    And this is why I have difficulty understanding your point stone120. You acknowledge how difficult Dean’s death was for Sam to cope with yet you still say that his arrogance is the reason the final seal was broken!

    “I was not picking on Sam, just saying what I felt about the character’s actions during that season. You don’t have to agree.”
    I don’t agree with you, not in this instance, sorry. I think that an event as colossal as the Apocalypse, and the decisions that led to the last seal being broken deserve more than a flippant ‘He was arrogant’ to explain them away. Hell, regardless of who your favourite brother is, I’d have thought (hoped) that Sam was worthy of a bit more consideration than that.

    Sam and Dean’s actions in the prelude to their seal breaking were remarkably similar; they were driven by desperation and an ‘ends justify the means’ attitude. They ‘both’ dealt with demons. They ‘both’ knew it would come to no good and that there would be a price to pay but they ‘both’ did it anyway because, for them, it was what they had to do.

    And just before I head, if the situations were reversed and Dean had to tap into his dark side to save people, even if Sam were protesting and begging him not to, would he do it? Damn straight he would. Hell, he already has done it, more than once.

    Comment by Etain — May 22, 2012 @ 3:42 am

  268. @ Jeff #266: Crowley says, “Think if you’d had just one king since before the first sunrise.” He was talking about how the Levi will flounder now that their ‘king’, Dick Roman, is dead, so Sam has to keep them from organizing again.

    Sam then says, “Which is exactly what you want,” meaning Crowley is now the biggest, most powerful, bad guy. (The angels — at least Cas’s angel garrison is dead, Luci is locked up, all the alphas but one are dead, Crowley has solved his power struggle with Meg.)

    I think the Levi story is over now. The brothers might encounter a stray one here or there, but I expect we’re done hearing about the Levi. The election will be almost over when S8 airs, so the evil one percenters won’t be a media item and there won’t be a need for political or social commentary on the ills of the U.S.

    As far as Jensen directing an episode, he said in an interview (I think it was in one of the upfront interviews, but I don’t have the link) that he would be directing the first episode. That doesn’t necessarily mean that that will be the first episode shown, as the last two that he directed were the first shot, but not the first shown. What we know is that he will again direct an episode for the new season.

    I’m really curious to see if Jeremy Carver writes the first episode. In the past, the showrunner has traditionally written the first script and the last script of the season.

    @ RS #256: I, too, was very disappointed that SG stuck Cas with Dean in Purgatory. All appearances are that poor stupid, helpless Dean can’t do anything unless he has his angel’s help. I’m am disappointed that Cas wasn’t returned to heaven, to rot there and never be seen again.

    Fatigue has set in with me, too, but not because of Cas. My fatigue is with Dean not having an equal storyline to Sam in seven years and with the truly awful two seasons under SG’s leadership, the direction she took both leads, the playing up of uninteresting support characters (Garth, Krissy, Frank, the Starks and now Kevin, and who an ever forget Becky), the deconstruction of good characters (Bobby, first and foremost, Meg, Crowley, and both Sam and Dean). She ditched the Impala and killed off good support characters for no good reason (Ellen and Rufus). And in doing all of that, she was incapable of telling a coherent, season-long story.

    The actor playing Kevin is not a bad actor, but his role in the last two episodes have been pretty uninteresting, even unnecessary in this last episode. I’m just hoping by keeping him around, he doesn’t turn into young, Asian Bobby who gives Sam all the answers he needs.

    I’m not ready to back out yet, however. I’m putting an awful lot of hope onto Carver, as I think a lot of fans have, and I know that he will need some time to clean up this mess. I’m willing to give him some time to do that, because I do love this show. But, I’m drawing a line in the sand, too. If Dean doesn’t have a story again after seven years, or if Cas gets more story than either Sam or Dean, or if it’s just the Cas/Dean thing with Sam off in a corner, or if the brothers are emoting off to the side without any action or involvement in whatever story is told, I’m done. I want two (or three) pro-active badass hunters with a story that they have some involvement in. I don’t care what story is told, as long as the two Winchesters have some reason to be in it. I don’t think that’s asking too much.

    Comment by Sheri — May 22, 2012 @ 4:19 am

  269. In 4, Castiel was a servant of what he thought was divine will; he evolved over the season to have affection for Dean and humans, but he was still a good soldier of what he thought was divine will through episode 21 of season 4 (clearly stated in When The Levee Breaks). He knew what killing Lilith would mean and that if he let Sam out of the panic room Sam would kill Lilith. He knew Sam had no idea of the result of killing Lilith but Castiel did not tell him or Dean until it was too late–Castiel set up Sam. Castiel started the apocalypse.
    Dean broke under torture while in hell and broke the first seal. You can play all the mind games you want, but there is no opportunity for Castiel to set up Sam to break the final seal if the first had not been broken. Dean literally started the apocalypse.
    Sam became addicted to demon blood. He saw Dean as weak (I did too–Dean was busy listening to angels, being distracted by hell memories, and constantly urging caution.) Dean had lost the Winchester willingness to die to save humanity; Sam had not. Instead, of listening to Sam’s urging to take action, Dean urged caution. Big brother had lost his will to act in Sam’s view and younger brother had to take on the task of defeating evil–and Ruby reinforced those feelings in Sam. Everyone told him to stop, but heroes don’t listen to the timid: They act when all others, out of fear for their lives, urge doing nothing. A Winchester is not a person primarily concerned about their own safety–they are/must be people willing to sacrifice themselves. Sam broke the final seal and started the apocalypse.
    Krepki did not create simplistic characters; he did not create good Dean, bad Sam, good Sam, bad Castiel, good Castiel, etc. The viewers have created those one dimensional characters according to which character or actor they prefer. It’s a tribute to Krepki’s handling of his characters that each fan group can find a reason to absolve their favorite and blame the angel or one of the brothers, but that is not what Krepki wrote.
    In the end it was Dean who stated at the end of Fallen Idol that all of them were responsible for the apocalypse. And, I guess if you want to blame one of the characters for starting the apocalypse, then Krepki gave everyone his/her choice. Of course, that completely ignores the fact that the angels planned and created the apocalypse and that Sam, Dean, and even Castiel were simply pawns to the forces that started it.

    Sheri–totally with you. Dean trapped in a Cas-Dean story and Sam in a side-bar story will do it for me. Could care less about the emotional connection between Cas and Dean; its a play to the slash fiction crowd and so completely wastes Jensen’s acting ability and progress of the character Dean. Having Jensen largely playing Collins boyfriend is almost criminal use of talent. I watch for an action series featuring the Winchester brothers.

    Comment by CaseyT — May 22, 2012 @ 5:18 am

  270. Well I didn’t have huge expectations about the finale as it’s been such a patchy year. I didn’t dislike this one, but it was certainly no All Hell Breaks Loose pt 2 or No Rest for the Wicked. What do the writers have against Sam and Dean actually fighting the baddies?

    Call me shallow, but I was brought up on The Dukes of Hazzard and then came of age to Buffy and Angel and I love me some quality good v evil violence.

    Surely the Dicks could’ve fought back a bit? Surely Sam and Dean could’ve got a bit bruised and bloody before finally, exhausted, sweaty and delicious, one of them made a last ditch desperate grab for the nun bone and took out the real Dick just as he’d convinced himself they were spent and he was ready to deliver his smug faced killing blow.

    THAT’S how you do a finale. They need to get Joss in to do a consult.

    What was the point of bringing all the leviathans together if they were going to be that lame? They were much scarier at the beginning of the season than they were in the finale.

    Yes, we all get that Dick was supposed to be screwing over the human race, but get a clue, writers: you’re supposed to build tension to a nailbiting climax, not piss it away on juvenile knob gags. Pick your moment!

    I’m thinking of writing a letter to the new showrunner to see if he’ll insist on Sam and Dean throwing a punch at someone other than each other now and then.

    Besides getting choked regularly or thrown into bookcases now and then there really isn’t anything but standing about and talking these days. Most times they don’t even try to fight back. They don’t need buff young studs playing those roles. I’m a 35 year old somewhat overweight woman and if all that’s required is to be thrown into a book case I could do that. I could bring my own bookcase even.

    And don’t get me wrong, I love some angst, but as Buffy once said, “Kicking ass is comfort food.” Yeah, Supernatural, it is for us too!

    Cas is not funny in my opinion, and really doesn’t add anything to the story for me. I was with Dean when he was outraged that Cas thinks he can just let everyone else sort out his crap for him after how he was with Sam and Dean making mistakes. I know he’s a fictional character but I don’t forgive him. I don’t know what they’re planning to do with him next but I for one would vote for a dignified exit. Or an undignified one. I don’t care really.

    On the plus side, I thought Bobby’s exit was quite poignant. I like that he found the strength to choose to move on. It was kind of weird they didn’t show him disappearing. As much as I love Bobby as a character, I really hope they don’t undermine all that by bringing him back.

    I always enjoy watching Crowley and I thought the contract scene was funny. Mark Sheppard actually managed to make me wonder for a second which side he’d actually choose, which I think was more to do with the actor than the writing to be honest.

    It was nice to see the Impala again, but I would have liked to see the scene where Sam had to wrestle Dean to the ground for the keys before he’d let Meg behind the wheel of his baby.

    I hope they use the Dean in purgatory thing wisely and don’t throw it away. When they couldn’t find John and Mary in heaven I wondered if maybe they were in purgatory. That could be a story. I wish Cas hadn’t ended up there with him. I try to be optimistic but I worry that he’s just going to annoy me before providing a frustratingly consequence free deus ex machina conclusion.

    I’m still going to be watching next year, because I’m not giving up on writers who had the potential to come up with the genius that was Mystery Spot and The Monster at the End of this Book, and who knows, a new showrunner might be the shot of adrenaline they need, but I really shouldn’t come away from the season finale thinking “Huh”.

    God, I’m getting so negative! This is terrible. I love Supernatural. Honest!

    Comment by Sira — May 22, 2012 @ 7:00 am

  271. Re: My post #268. The sentence should read,

    ” I want two (NOT three) pro-active badass hunters with a story that they have some involvement in.”

    Since Cas is here, he should be a support character — not a regular cast member with an equal part to the Winchesters.

    Comment by Sheri — May 22, 2012 @ 7:18 am

  272. @Etain: I didn’t shrug off nor dismissed (and never will)anything about either brothers.

    “And this is why I have difficulty understanding your point stone120. You acknowledge how difficult Dean’s death was for Sam to cope with yet you still say that his arrogance is the reason the final seal was broken!”

    I don’t believe I said that Sam’s arrogance is the ONLY reason the final seal was broken. The arrogance is one small part of everything that went wrong in that season. I’ve written a lot (and I must admit that it’s been a heck of a lot) to try and explain that, either I did not do a good job or you’re not willing to accept that part of the situation was Sam’s fault. Favorite or not, I never said that Dean wasn’t responsible for some of the things that happened to lead to the final seal being broken. The situations on the show are complex, the characters are complex. I look at the whole and the comment about both Dean and Sam were just one small part of it.

    And I may be wrong, but I don’t remember Bobby “turning against Sam”.

    Yes, Dean’s first words were an accusation because he was scared that Sam had gone and sold his soul. That was worry for his little brother not an “I don’t trust you” statement. And since Sam did admit to trying to make a deal, it just showed that Dean knew his brother well. And Dean believed Sam when he said he hadn’t made the deal, even before he found out about the angels, so I don’t see why that should play a role in Sam going after Ruby.

    On the show, we only saw Dean directly called Sam a monster twice. One was during Sam’s detox hallucinations, so that wasn’t Dean. The second time was during the hotel confrontation and I believe that he said something like, “that would make you a monster, etc.” I’d have to re-watch that scene to get the phrasing right. He didn’t say, Sam you are a monster. He wasn’t calling Sam a monster, he was saying that if Sam went down that road with Ruby, than he would become a monster.

    As for the “If I didn’t know you, I would be hunting you” comment. Why is the qualifier, “If I didn’t know you” always left out when people are getting so upset over Dean saying that to Sam.

    And considering the fact that Dean didn’t trust the angels from the get go, any manipulation of him wasn’t because of his TRUST in them. They succeeded because of his worry for his brother, not because they were his bff.

    After hearing so many people comment over how Dean pretty much pushed Sam into Ruby’s arm, I re-watched the fourth season, and until that ultimatum right before Sam walked out…I don’t see it. And even after the ultimatum, he still reached out to Sam and apologized for his part in their fights.

    And I also know that I said in one of my earlier post, that I believed that Sam in the end would have made the right choice and go back to Dean if Zacharia didn’t plant that fake message from Dean on Sam’s phone. So how is that dismissing Sam’s entire ordeal during that season?

    As for the detox, it was necessary. Sam did it voluntarily in season 5. I don’t really understand your argument towards that.

    Anyway, I see this has the potential to go round and round and probably never ends. So, although I respect your point of view, and you have some excellent points, I feel that you’ve focused on one sentence that I’ve made (and qualified) and not taken it in the entire context that I made it.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 22, 2012 @ 7:34 am

  273. from When the Levee Breaks:

    You don’t know what you’re doing, Sam.

    Yes, I do.

    Then that’s worse.

    Why? Look, I’m telling you—

    Because it’s not something that you’re doing, it’s what you are! It means—

    DEAN cuts himself off.

    What? No. Say it.

    SAM has tears in his eyes.

    It means you’re a monster.

    Comment by beth w — May 22, 2012 @ 8:40 am

  274. CaseyT, post 269

    I want to marry that comment. Exactly.

    Comment by beth w — May 22, 2012 @ 9:25 am

  275. Thanks Beth W. I stand corrected. He did call Sam a monster.

    As for the detox comment, I should say that, although it was necessary, I don’t think the way they went about it was the best. Although I don’t really know how else it could have been done. I guess neither did the writers since Sam had to go through the same thing again in the exact same way after the episode with Famine in it. Although the second time around was voluntary.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 22, 2012 @ 9:28 am

  276. the first to get blamed for the beginning of the end of the world are the angles for sending dean back in time in epi 4.3 “in the beginning”….hence introducing hazazale to mary winchester, thus YED killing for parents and john causing her to make the deal and giving him permission. second to get blamed is dean for not respecting the natural order and letting sam die in epi 2.22 and then breaking the first seal, and lastly sam for breaking the finale seal in epi 4.22 “when the levee breaks”.

    this was always suppose to be a fight between brothers so, the angles would not have let lilith break all of the seals if dean hadn’t promised to obey god and the angles in epi 2.21. which is when seals started to breaking really fast and cas let sam out of the saferoom. nor do i think they would have allowed the battle to take place if jake was the last one standing in epi 2.22. john sure as hell wasn’t going to break the first seal. then again in deans defense john did know the importance of breaking the first seal which dean was not aware of.

    Comment by N-D's — May 22, 2012 @ 9:45 am

  277. @erine- I disagree, when angels or demons ” die” they must cease to exist. For example angels can leave heaven at will, so why wouldn’t gabriel return ect he is one of the most powerful beings in existence. Also did anyone catch when Dick was holding the creamer he said ”I smell a promotion”?

    Comment by Tal — May 22, 2012 @ 12:42 pm

  278. @Tal, he was talking to the guy who was in the lab with him.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 22, 2012 @ 1:05 pm

  279. This season wasn’t the best but it most certaintly wasn’t the worst!!!!!!
    The Finale left me in suspense & very ANXIOIS!!! I can’t wait till season 8 to arrive!! Only 4months to GO!!

    For the haters who hated the season,the finale, who hated Castiel, Sam, Dean, writers, ect. I wish all The best becase the show had more comments, viewers, and it wouldn’t have been what it was thanks to y’all!!!

    By they way, who cares(LISA,JENNIFER,SARAH,KATIE,OZZIE) if you irrelavent wasps are not gonna be there next season, who the hell’s gonna miss ya’ll anyway?!! BBBBBBBBYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    Comment by Adam — May 22, 2012 @ 3:23 pm

  280. I’AM not a W.A.S.P..@Adam…I’am an American Puerto Rican who comes from a very international family.

    I’ve been a fan of Supernatural since the pilot aired on September 13th ,2005 on Tuesday Night after the Gilmore Girls.

    I’am also more a Jared & Jensen fan than Supernatural…because I followed Jared as Dean on GG ,when he played Teen Dean…Rory’s bf and I followed Jensen on Smallville b4 SPN… where he played Clarks fb coach.

    You can call me what you want too…it’s a free world.

    I signed up in 2005 to see a kick ass sci-fi dramatic tv series about two brothers ,hunting and doing the family business…in a black car..the impala.

    I did not think that 5 seasons into the future that Kripke who in 2005 sent me a signed personal letter to support his tv new series would leave in season 5.

    I never thought too that Gambles would turn SPN into Soapernatural by making Dean a family domesticated man with Lisa & Ben in season 6 and Dean an instant daddy in season 7.

    I never imagined that Dean would throw his amulet in the garbage and that the amulet ,would be replaced by Castiel’s trench coat and that Dean would become Castiel’s bend over Bitch and Sam..Lucifer’s bitch boy.

    So after 7 seasons forgive me if a painfully depart and stop my DVR from recording every SPN episode .

    I recorded each 7 season episode , but sadly only kept 6 in my DVR cable box. Hello Cruel World was my favorite season 7 episode and I have seen it like 30x’s already.

    I am finally going to listen to my friends and Jim Beaver…who tell me ”IF YOU DON’T LIKE THE SHOW, THEN STOP WATCHING IT.

    Hopefully season 9 ,will be better than season 8 . which will have the brothers… a p a r t… until the middle of season 8.

    Comment by ozzie — May 22, 2012 @ 4:36 pm

  281. Again with the homophobia, ozzie? Please feel free to step away and stop spreading your hate around. There’s enough bashing ready to go down here any minute without bringing that into the mix.

    Comment by yeah — May 22, 2012 @ 4:40 pm

  282. Iam not a hater but some people hate me for speaking my mind and I might not be supporting the SPN in October by watching season 8..but I support the Js buy having bought all their movies and All their DVD Box sets…I will also be buying the season 7 box set to see the deleted scenes and the Gag Reel…and the Js narrate one of the episodes…so go bite on that loser.

    Comment by ozzie — May 22, 2012 @ 4:54 pm

  283. Where exactly is it written that you have to watch every single episode of a show that no longer entertains you and disappoints you more than it pleases you? It may be easy for some people to keep watching because you guys still think the show is great. Would you still watch if you felt differently? I think it’s amazing some fans are still watching being as disappointed as they are. I don’t think it’s a good idea to tell fans to stop watching either…you want bad ratings?

    Comment by Olivia — May 22, 2012 @ 4:58 pm

  284. I agree with the homophobia that runs rampant on this board sometimes. Dean is not Cas’s butt buddie or whatever people call it, and poor Sam, whenever Lucifer hints at what Sam may have suffered in hell, I just cringe for the guy because it definitely wasn’t consensual.

    Comment by twinster — May 22, 2012 @ 5:07 pm

  285. @ozzie-you have to at least watch jensens episode that he is directing-i can almost bet at 100% there will be no destiel in that episode-i too am so very disappointed that destiel has become so prominent in supernatural although not canon but implied for the destiel fans. i am hoping for better things in season 8 with carver at the helm. he wrote the winchester brothers in seasons 1-3 which is when they were real hero’s-real men-and bad asses. he wrote them as such. so hopefully he will make them that again in season 8.

    support jensen and at least watch his episode. peace!!

    Comment by animal — May 22, 2012 @ 5:08 pm

  286. oh and by the way-that is why i dislike misha so much now-it is because he played that destiel card constantly at cons and interviews. not caring what it was doing to the fandom, to the j’s or anything.

    Comment by animal — May 22, 2012 @ 5:10 pm

  287. I’m so sick of people crying about homophobia. Get over yourselves. Just because someone against Dean and Castiel, doesn’t make them homophobic. Give me a break and stop the homophobic card. It’s old, it’s tired and most of all IT’S BORING. I don’t like Destiel because Destiel is not what Supernatural is about. And the Destiel fan base has done nothing but destroy what Supernatural is and always hard been about. It’s not because of homophobia, it’s because of stupidity. Destiel fans make everything about themselves and their “ship”. It’s frustrating to those who actually care about the real meaning behind the show. I just think Destiel fan base is a very vocal, loud minority who just can’t shut up with their homophobia accusations. Get over it, seriously. I’m so sick of it.

    Comment by Jessica — May 22, 2012 @ 5:49 pm

  288. The whole point, Jessica IS THAT THERE IS NO DESTIEL on Supernatural, just in bad fanfiction or in peoples’ imaginations. And just like there is NO WINCEST in Supernatural, just in bad fanfiction. I’m am sick to death of people complaining about Cas and his boy toy or vice versa. There is no such thing going on in the show, I’m sick and tired of people being accused of being “Destiel” fans if they like Cas befriending Dean. I see no on the board actually saying they like “Destiel” or wincest or Samcifer (I just made that one up!). It really peeves me off and others when that comes up.

    Comment by twinster — May 22, 2012 @ 6:30 pm

  289. And Jessica, like you, I am totally tired of the whole Destiel card.

    Comment by twinster — May 22, 2012 @ 6:35 pm

  290. WASP?!?!?!?! Hahahaha! I’m an African American woman.

    And when did I say I wasn’t going to watch next season? I’ll watch. If I find it truly terrible, I’ll stop watching.

    I don’t see how that’s any of your concern anyway, Adam. Why in the world do you care if I think Season 7 was the worst season ever? What does it matter to you?

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 22, 2012 @ 6:50 pm

  291. Sorry, but anytime you throw around the phrases “bend-over buddy” or “butt buddy”, I’m going to play the homophobia card. If you’re not a hater, don’t use hate speech. It may not be what you feel in your heart, but if speaking your mind means you continually give people that perception . . .

    And if you find people pointing that out boring, maybe stop saying things you know are going to cause other people to point out how what you’re saying is offensive. It’s not about being a destiel fan (I’m not). It’s about not referring to people who like things you don’t like, or characters interacting in a way you don’t like, by derogatory slurs that are historically rooted in homophobia. I have no problem if you don’t like Cas or Cas and Dean being friends. There are plenty of people on this board who can express their dislike of Castiel and his effect on the show in a civil manner. But if you use offensive names, don’t climb up on your high horse and deflect when you get called on it.

    And I agree completely with twinster–there is no “Destiel”, “wincest”, or any other variation of these ships on the show. Blaming other fanbases because you don’t like the way show is being written is a bit sad. No one’s in charge of this show but the PTB, and if the fact that other people have different favorites/opinions than you ruins your enjoyment of the show, then that’s on you. But hey, express your opinion all you like, honestly. Just don’t be surprised when it garners an opposing reaction.

    Comment by yeah — May 22, 2012 @ 7:14 pm

  292. @yeah: So glad there are others on this board with sense. Thank you.

    Comment by twinster — May 22, 2012 @ 7:22 pm

  293. “Dean broke under torture while in hell and broke the first seal. You can play all the mind games you want, but there is no opportunity for Castiel to set up Sam to break the final seal if the first had not been broken. Dean literally started the apocalypse.
    Sam became addicted to demon blood. He saw Dean as weak (I did too–Dean was busy listening to angels, being distracted by hell memories, and constantly urging caution.) Dean had lost the Winchester willingness to die to save humanity; Sam had not. Instead, of listening to Sam’s urging to take action, Dean urged caution. Big brother had lost his will to act in Sam’s view and younger brother had to take on the task of defeating evil–and Ruby reinforced those feelings in Sam. Everyone told him to stop, but heroes don’t listen to the timid: They act when all others, out of fear for their lives, urge doing nothing. A Winchester is not a person primarily concerned about their own safety–they are/must be people willing to sacrifice themselves. Sam broke the final seal and started the apocalypse.”
    I never saw Dean as “weak” in this. I saw him as smart and listening to his gut-instinct. If anyone was “weak”, it was Sam, IMO-for not be able to see past his surface and false justifications for drinking the demon blood and listening to Ruby alone, and disreagrding anything that his brother, or Chuck, or Pamela said- and instead going along with the demon who said she wanted to see the skin sizzle off his brother’s bones. I will never understand those who saw Dean as the weak brother during this part of the story. Never. but then again Sam never ttok it back either-so maybe Sam still feels like Dean was “weak” then; and maybe, like this poster, he still feels it now. I don’t. And never will. And the brother bond is dead to me, if, as I suspect, Sam still feels the same way as this poster. So the “profound bond” is now far more preferable to me, and I’d love to see Dean and Cas as brothers-in-arms again, but this time in Purgatory, just fighting together to stay alive and survive…Bring it in S8, Mr. Carver. It feels good to be feeling any kind of hope concerning this show, again.

    Comment by Sarah2 — May 22, 2012 @ 8:17 pm

  294. I agree with you Sarah2. If like that poster, Sam thinks Dean is weak (and thus showing that Sam thinks he’s stronger than Dean) then the brotherly bond is dead to me as well. I don’t care if Sam rescues Dean from Purgatory if Sam uses the rescue to prop himself up in his mind as better than Dean and the show uses it to prop Sam up as better than Dean especially when it basically threw shade at Dean for resouling Sam.

    Comment by ORLY — May 22, 2012 @ 10:08 pm

  295. I have a question:

    Why was this special weapon needed to kill Dick? Is he different than other Leviathan? Why couldn’t they just chop his head off, bury the body and head in cement away from each other like they did with other Leviathan? Why was that weapon even needed to begin with? If they were able to get close enough to stab him TWICE with two different bones, then they coulda easily chopped off his head as well…

    Just a question.

    Comment by Jeff — May 22, 2012 @ 10:31 pm

  296. @293.
    “…but then again Sam never ttok it back either-so maybe Sam still feels like Dean was “weak” then; and maybe, like this poster, he still feels it now.”

    Given that in season 5 Sam described himself as the ‘least’ of all of them, it is highly unlikely he sees himself as stronger than Dean.

    Also, why is the onus on Sam to take back what he said (while high on demon blood)? Why is there no call for Dean to apologise for all the things that he said to Sam, for all the times he punched him, for calling him a monster, for his actions in Sex & Violence. I find it so strange that Sam is the only one expected to take back all the hateful things he said and did, while all the hateful things that Dean said and did aren’t even acknowledged.

    “if Sam uses the rescue to prop himself up in his mind as better than Dean and the show uses it to prop Sam up as better than Dean especially when it basically threw shade at Dean for resouling Sam.”

    So you think that Sam will try to rescue Dean, not to save his brother life but to prop himself up as being better than his brother!!

    So the many times that Dean has saved Sam, is that only because he wanted to show that he was better than Sam?

    It’s funny, it seems like the slightest attempt to make Sam strong is met with a bay of protests. Having a strong, capable Sam does not equate to a weak Dean.

    Comment by Etain — May 23, 2012 @ 2:18 am

  297. @296 See, and that is where the writers made no sense. Sam thought he was the “Least” of them but at the same time he thought he was the only one who was strong enough to stop Lucifer. That to me was the height of arrogance. He did’t think Dean strong enough to stop Michael ( who was a soldier for humanity ) but he thought he was strong enough to stop Lucifer (who hated humans).
    So I never believed that line from Sam at all.

    Comment by me — May 23, 2012 @ 2:32 am

  298. @297
    Re: Stopping Lucifer, they had tried damn near everything else to stop him and they couldn’t. Sam saying yes was the last option and even he wasn’t confident it’d work but because there was no other option he had to try. He did not think that he was strong enough to ‘stop’ Lucifer, merely to take control momentarily.

    Sam never said that Dean was not strong enough to stop Michael; it didn’t even come into the equation because Dean was not trying to ‘stop’ Michael. He was planning on saying ‘yes’ to Michael solely because he believed that Sam would say yes to Lucifer.

    Also, Michael, a ‘soldier for humanity’? Micheal only cared about destiny. The Apocalypse, which he wanted, would have caused the death of half the population. How is that a ‘soldier for humanity’?

    Comment by Etain — May 23, 2012 @ 2:50 am

  299. Dean has apologized plenty of times to Sam and Sam to Dean. I don’t know about anybody else, but the ending of Swan Song more than made up for the rifts between the boys in the previous season. Dean showed up on that field, despite the fact that he was about to face off with two extremely powerful beings, both of whom wasn’t his fan, and he went, not because he knew he could win, but because at the least, he wanted to be there for Sam at the end, because he loved his brother. And Sam, was able to gain control of Lucifer because of his love for his brother and the memories of all the good that was in their relationship.

    Both characters made plenty of mistakes. We may not agree for the reasons behind them, because we all have different perspectives and backgrounds.

    In the end, there are more things to love about the two than to hate. Heck, there’s not even anything to hate about them because like every other humans, they have human failings. I didn’t watch the show because of its saintly characters, I watched it because the brothers felt real, in all their angsty dysfunctional glory. Neither boys are poster children for functional, the fact that they keep fighting, keeping trying to fix any mistakes that they make, never giving up even when they feel like there’s nothing left in them to give, is what makes them great characters. Plus, there are genuine pretty darn funny moments on the show, which I honestly didn’t expect when I first started watching it.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 23, 2012 @ 3:56 am

  300. @ Jeff #295: What you point out is just another one of those giant plot holes prevalent for the last two seasons and an example of the writers not remembering what they wrote before, or even earlier in an episode in some cases.

    Your line of thought could also be carried over to the whole Dick’s plan arc. The plan was as stupid as having to have a special bone and blood to kill Dick. The Levi are going to kill off certain categories (skinny, smart, and a couple of other things), with a special coffee creamer (assuming everyone in the U.S. drinks coffee — especially humans like the teen girl who strips in a room full of asexual, no interest in sex, unable to procreate, mostly men Levi. Oh, and by the way, humans are a limited resource — there’s only seven billion of them worldwide, so you have to die Alpha vamp.

    In other words, there’s really no way to connect the dots for why a bone and blood was needed to kill Dick and not for other cheese loving Levi, unless the dots can be connected between Dean said they were going to kill him, not send him back to Purgatory. (It’s a stretch, I know.)

    Comment by Sheri — May 23, 2012 @ 4:21 am

  301. Maybe in the end the writers needed to get one of the brothers into purgatory and this was the way they went about doing it for whatever the reason.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 23, 2012 @ 4:38 am

  302. @298 Actually, no, they didn’t. Dean was going to give himself over to Michael to try and take out Lucifer in his lesser vessel which could have possibly burned half the earth. But that was shot down for some reason even though it was no different then Sam saying yes to Lucifer who wanted to burn all of earth.

    Comment by me — May 23, 2012 @ 5:21 am

  303. @302 Agreed. Dean came up with that idea and was promptly screamed at. Sam comes up with an even worse idea and it’s treated like E=mc squared. Crazy.

    Nothing has really changed in the relationship. Sam again leaves Dean for a monster girl after he should’ve learned better with Ruby. Sam still thinks he knows better than Dean and I’m tired of season after season of something wrong with Sam so Dean can’t just take off the kid gloves around him.

    Comment by ORLY — May 23, 2012 @ 5:47 am

  304. @302 The reason they went with Sam’s idea was because the character needed to be redeemed. Sure they could’ve had Dean save the day but then it would’ve just been Dean cleaning up his brother’s mistake instead of Sam atoning for it. Logically the alternative could’ve worked as well but bottom line Sam needed some redemption. I think you Sam haters know you would criticize him for that as well.

    Comment by Olivia — May 23, 2012 @ 6:09 am

  305. Dean needed redemption, too. He broke the first seal. Too bad they couldn’t have allowed Dean even a fraction of the more pro-active BDH role that they gifted Sam with in what was the culmination of a five season-long story. But no, in the end after teasing us for almost two entire seasons with a bigger, more pro-active role for Dean, all he got in the end was to prop and support Sam as the BDH. Pathetic. I hope Carver can wash the bad taste of that episode and the subsequently just as pathetic seasons 6 and 7 that it spawned, out of my mouth. He’s got a fairly clean slate and a good shot at making Dean truly badass again as a start. I hope he takes full advantage of it.

    Comment by Sarah2 — May 23, 2012 @ 6:45 am

  306. @285…I have 2 friends that work for the Media World…1 in New York and 1 in L.A. they get the pleasure of seeing tv episodes b4 they air on T.V…They will call me and be like Hey you want to know what happenned on the Walking Dead & I will be like NO.

    Both told me that Gambles exiting SPN was not a big surprise in their media jobs.They said SPN was doing bad and losing at the ratings but the Supernarural brings mad money to both the CW & WB.

    I told them I’am skipping season 8 of SPN to which they were both surprised,…they will let me know ahead of time if I can sneek a peek at season 8 that involve the brothers minus the winged 1. I will see those and DVR those eppies only.

    Iam crossing my fingers that at least 5 0r 6 season 8 episodes will be brothers centric minus Castiel.

    Comment by ozzie — May 23, 2012 @ 6:49 am

  307. @296 – Etain, great post!

    Sam admitted in Season 5 that he made the worst mistake and that he was wrong. In the season opener, I felt his deep remorse and regret for his actions. He spent most of the season trying to regain his brother’s trust. And as you pointed out, Sam considered, and probably still considers, himself the “least” of everyone. He doesn’t think he’s stronger than Dean. He doesn’t think he’s better than Dean.

    Now, it may be hard from some to acknowledge, but the writers AND the characters have moved past Season 4. We’re headed into Season 8, and posters are still arguing about Sam’s actions while high on demon blood FOUR YEARS AGO. I get it, but it’s over and done with at this point. I hated everything Sam did in Season 4 and don’t think Kripke gave Sam the perspective Sam desperately needed that season, but I’m not going to hold it against the character forever. Sam has never presented himself as “better than” Dean. He loves his brother and trusts his brother. Sam basically follows Dean’s lead. He wouldn’t do that if he thought Dean was a cowardly moron!

    @ 300 – Sheri, everything about the Leviathans was stupid.

    @ 304 – Olivia, you pretty much summed it up in your last sentence. Posters who hate Sam are just going to hate him no matter what he does.

    Dean’s plan was never to overcome Michael. He had given up and was just going to say yes. Sam’s plan was always to try to overcome Lucifer and lock him back in the Cage. Plus, as you said, it was a way for Sam to redeem himself. Like Sam said, he let out Lucifer, so he had to be the one to lock him back up.

    Cas should have taken a page from Sam’s book this year!

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 23, 2012 @ 6:49 am

  308. Uh . . . who here honestly blames Dean for breaking the first seal? Really? The guy was in Hell! He thought he was going to be there for an eternity. Dean completely and totally gets a pass from me for “breaking the first seal.”

    Sam, on the other hand, made dumb choices, which led to the breaking of the last seal. Unlike Dean, Sam was NOT being tortured on a daily basis for 30 years to give in. Unlike Dean, Sam wasn’t facing an eternity of unspeakable pain and torture. All Sam had to do was NOT trust a demon. It’s not that hard or difficult.

    No, Sam is the one who needed the redemption. Dean didn’t do anything that needed to be redeemed.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 23, 2012 @ 6:55 am

  309. From a writing standpoint, if Dean said yes to Michael, it really would have been Michael saving the day, not Dean. Jimmy Novak certainly isn’t credited or blamed for what Cas does. And there still would have been destruction. How could he even trust the angels to do what they said? Sounds strange but at least with Lucifer, they knew what they were getting.

    At the time of the “worst idea ever,” Michael had already taken Adam. They were gathering the rings but had no way to get Lucifer in the pit after they opened the door. It was a Hail Mary for sure. I know Swan Song wasn’t satisfying to some folks and I respect that. But to me, at least both the boys actively participated in saving the world not just let the angels use them. They personally gathered the rings–Dean convinced freaking Death to give him one. And Dean coming to be with Sam tipped the balance at the cemetery. Some of the last lines from Chuck were beautiful:

    “So what’s it all add up to? Well, it’s hard to say. But me, I’d say it was a test. For Sam and Dean. And I think they did alright. Up against good, evil, angels, devils, destiny, and God himself – They made their own choice. They chose family. And well, isn’t that kinda the whole point?”

    Obviously just my opinion and not meant to be argumentative in the least. I know other people see it differently.

    Comment by beth w — May 23, 2012 @ 7:15 am

  310. “Uh . . . who here honestly blames Dean for breaking the first seal? Really? The guy was in Hell! He thought he was going to be there for an eternity. Dean completely and totally gets a pass from me for “breaking the first seal.”’
    He blamed/blames himself, the same as Sam. As a matter of fact, he blames himself for not being able to stop or help Sam. I’m not talking about what fandom thinks. I’m talking about what was needed, in a storyboard sense, for both main characters to have received the redemption that both so sorely needed, but that the writers only truly allowed, one of them.

    Comment by Sarah2 — May 23, 2012 @ 7:31 am

  311. I’m not sure how Dean would have found redemption in saying yes to Michael.

    He did help save the world and his part was plenty devastating. He had to let the little brother who he had taken care of all his life, sold his soul for jump into the pit. It went against everything he is. Sam wouldn’t have done it without Dean’s OK and Dean had to say yes to Sam’s plan in order for Death to cooperate. So he did pay an agonizing price to save the world.

    Comment by beth w — May 23, 2012 @ 7:48 am

  312. And yet, as per Defending Your Life, Sam feels he’s paid his dues, but Dean STILL doesn’t…
    At this point, I’ve kind of given up on the writers allowing Dean to feel that he has nothing to feel guilty about, though. They like keeping him on the hamster wheel of feeling guilty about everything and repressing and repressing and repressing it some more, until it busts out of him in, as he said, “bouts of alcoholism and violence.” I just hope that Carver won’t ever try and pawn it off on us as a storyline for him anymore or again; because it’s obvious now and IMO, that it’s only and just a part of his overall characterization to these writers.

    Comment by Sarah2 — May 23, 2012 @ 8:13 am

  313. @302
    Michael would not have fought Lucifer while Lucifer was in a lesser vessel. It was well established that he was a traditionalist and that he was going to do things the way they were planned ie Michael/Dean and Lucifer/Sam.

    Dean saying yes to Michael would have led to nothing more than Michael hanging around waiting for Sam to say yes, and every moment he spent in Dean, the more of a hold Michael would have on him.

    Comment by Etain — May 23, 2012 @ 8:24 am

  314. I didn’t care for Season 5, but “Swan Song” was a great episode. I loved it. I thought the scene where Sam gets control of Lucifer was very powerful. I also loved how Sam had those flashbacks of him and Dean. Very powerful, meaningful scene. That was a finale that had meaning and significance. Even last year’s finale w/Sam struggling to merge the parts of his mind and fighting to help Dean was powerful, good stuff!

    We didn’t get any of that this year!

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 23, 2012 @ 8:30 am

  315. sarah,

    I’m not sure it is possible for Dean to not feel some guilt. Not because he is guilty but he is wired to feel responsible if things don’t go right. The guy’s a hero, but he has a hard time seeing past the people he couldn’t save like Jo. Part of being the oldest child magnified by the life he has led saving people perhaps. A big part of his guilt in Defending your Life was that he lied to Sam about Amy. I don’t think he regretted killing her.

    I am with you though, it can be part of his character without being debilitating. I look forward a good story for him next season. Pretty please, Mr Carver.

    Comment by beth w — May 23, 2012 @ 8:40 am

  316. “Dean saying yes to Michael would have led to nothing more than Michael hanging around waiting for Sam to say yes, and every moment he spent in Dean, the more of a hold Michael would have on him.”

    What effect might that have had on Dean? Why did Raphael’s host become catatonic?

    Comment by beth w — May 23, 2012 @ 8:48 am

  317. in “the song remains the same” Michael made it clear to Dean that “unlike my brothers I want leave you a drooling mess.”

    ultimately the blame of this mess falls on GOD yeah I said it. The one who set this horrible plan in motion then told Josh to tell the winchesters to “back off… and that it’s not his problem.”

    only to then change the script at the end and not go through with the battle. why put them through a life of hell…what the fuck?

    Comment by N-D's — May 23, 2012 @ 8:58 am

  318. is sera complete out of the SPN business or is she just stepping down from show runner but will still be a writer?

    Comment by N-D's — May 23, 2012 @ 9:00 am

  319. Dean could have had a profound effect on Michael if the writers had wanted him to. It always comes down to what the showrunners and writers want. They can make anything happen that they choose to. I’m just hoping that Carver, through the writing in S8, will show Jensen Ackles and his character more respect than Kripke and Gamble have and did(IMO), since mid S5. We’ll see.

    Comment by Sarah2 — May 23, 2012 @ 9:02 am

  320. @ ozzie #306: That’s interesting, ozzie. You’re lucky to have a heads up.

    I’m sorry you’re not going to give Carver a chance. Even though Cas is in S8, and I’m sure it’s to hold as many fans as possible at this point, Carver has a reputation for developing a story for all of his characters. He also writes both Sam and Dean well.

    I’m not excited about Cas either, but I’ willing to give Carver a chance to turn this show around. I’m going to watch, but I’ve also drawn a line in the sand that if Dean doesn’t get a story this season (and that means a story where Cas doesn’t have to help him with every single little thing) I’m going to give up. God knows I set through that really awful Ruby2 mess and ended up being tricked when Dean’s 2-year story was thrown out, and I didn’t expect SG to do anything but play with Sam (which turned out worse than anything I imagined).

    But EK, who lost interest mid-season 5, and SG are gone and the J2s are still here. The show is trying to correct itself, so I’m willing to give it time to do that. It certainly can’t be any worse than Swan Song and S6 and S7, that’s for sure.

    I can’t stand Misha playing himself as Cas, and that’s all he’s doing in this current character. I hope Carver changes that.

    Comment by Sheri — May 23, 2012 @ 9:08 am

  321. thanks N-D for the info about Michael.

    I think that Sera is done and moving on to other projects.

    Comment by beth w — May 23, 2012 @ 9:30 am

  322. @313. That doesn’t make any sense to me because Michael had no problem confronting Lucifer while he was in Adam, which of course turned into a perfectly suitable vessel for him to fight with against Lucifer’s true vessel. So I don’t think he would have waited at all.

    Comment by me — May 23, 2012 @ 9:35 am

  323. @322 actually we don’t know if michael/adam was a perfectly suitable vessel. they never had the chance to fight thanks to dean, the impala, and sams pure mental strength. i personnally think michael would have been weaker using adam instead of his perfect vessel which was dean.

    i still can’t believe you guys are still arguing about season 5 cliffhanger. wow!!! but heres my two cents. i’m with the crowd that says dean had nothing to be sorry for. he had no idea what lillith was planning. and he was tortured into breaking the seal. which he did’nt even know that he did that. sam on the other hand could have stopped the whole progression of the apocalpse if he just would have made the choice to stop what he was doing. i mean dean gave sam plenty of warning once dean got out of hell. he told him that even god didn’t want sam doing what he was doing plus countless of other people telling sam to stop. but sam was arrogant thinking that only he was strong enough to kill lillith and that dean was weak. which actually it turned out sam was the weak one. he couldn’t stop.the draw of the blood was too strong. ultimately though it was the angels and the demons fault. they manipulated both brothers-sam more so than dean.
    there-there is my 2 cents. yay!!

    Comment by animal — May 23, 2012 @ 2:03 pm

  324. @322
    Dean had already (emphatically) said no to Michael. However, Sam had said yes to Lucifer so he really didn’t leave Michael with much of a choice ‘but’ to confront him. Michael was an honourable (for want of a better word) angel. He knew, and planned to fulfill, his duty. His duty was to fight and kill Lucifer and he wasn’t going to sit around, hiding and waiting for Dean to say yes while Lucifer was out and about in his true vessel. And honestly, it probably cost Michael everything because, as a vessel, Adam was very ineffective. Dean’s decision to say ‘no’ weakened Michael considerably which also helped Sam defeat Lucifer.

    Both Sam and Dean believed that killing Lilith would stop the final seal being broken so regardless of whether or not Sam used his powers, their plan was to kill her. Lilith was at the church to die so that Lucifer could rise. Had Sam not used his powers, then another way to kill her would have been floated into their laps. She’d have made it easy for Dean or another hunter to do it. The Apocalypse had been planned for generations. Sam refusing to use his powers wasn’t going to stop it.

    Comment by Etain — May 23, 2012 @ 2:31 pm

  325. Reviewing a season finale is very different from reviewing a singular episode, and “Supernatural” finales are more challenging than most. The end of a season has to tie up loose story threads from the episodes preceding it, while still leaving enough dangling to create a compelling jumping off point for next year. Thankfully, despite a few (okay, more than a few) lackluster episodes this season, I think that the finale managed to course-correct in a way that makes me truly optimistic for Season 8. The last couple of episodes didn’t build up much momentum going into the closer, in comparison with the stellar runs at the end of Seasons 1, 2, 4 and 5, but a finale still needs to stand on its own merits, and against the odds, I felt like “Survival of the Fittest” did so.
    I think that my main criticism with Season 7 as a whole — and, in hindsight, with Season 6 too — was an overall lack of focus. The ideas behind the Leviathans and Eve were good in theory, but in practice, there seemed to be too many standalone episodes to create a truly cohesive through-line from premiere to finale. When a season works as a whole, there need to be multiple unmissable episodes which deepen the mythology and drive the story forward, and looking back at Season 7, I feel like we could’ve watched the first two episodes of the season, “How To Win Friends and Influence Monsters,” “Reading is Fundamental” and “Survival of the Fittest,” ignored the rest, and still gotten the overall gist of the story.
    I’m not sure if that was because of internal concerns that the Leviathans weren’t interesting enough to be the focal point of more episodes, or because the monster of the week stories just didn’t feel fresh or exciting enough (though I did enjoy “The Mentalists” and “Time After Time”) — but aside from Robbie Thompson, Sera Gamble and Ben Edlund, a number of writers seemed to struggle with pacing issues in their stories this year, with episodes either dragging in the middle or ending abruptly.
    Although this sounds like a criticism of Gamble, I don’t really mean it as one; I think that any showrunner (perhaps even Eric Kripke) would’ve struggled to conceptualize a new arc for Season 6 after the original five-year story came to a close, especially since no-one knew at that point whether the show would be back for a seventh year. For a series as heavily serialized as “Supernatural,” conceiving two self-contained story arcs for the past two years must have been a herculean feat, so in many ways, I don’t blame the writers for having difficulties in making Seasons 6 and 7 coherent.
    The transition between Season 7 and Season 8 could prove equally challenging, since the series is once again changing showrunners, with Sera Gamble (who has written for the show since its first year) handing the reins to Jeremy Carver, who was with “Supernatural” from Seasons 3-5 before departing to launch the U.S. version of “Being Human” with his wife, Anna Fricke. I mourned the loss of Carver almost as much as I mourned the loss of Eric Kripke at the time, because I don’t believe there is a single writer who grasped Sam and Dean’s voices with as much style and confidence as he did, short of Kripke himself (alright, and Ben Edlund).
    And while Kripke knew Sam and Dean, Carver knew story — so many of his episodes remain my all-time favorites: “A Very Supernatural Christmas,” “Mystery Spot,” “In The Beginning,” “Free To Be You And Me” and “The Point of No Return,” to name a few. They weren’t just well-written in terms of character, they were well-structured, too. Having a clearly defined beginning, middle and an end, and a coherent sense of pacing, is something that “Supernatural” has struggled with more noticeably in the past two seasons than it did in its first five years. I don’t know whether that sense of cohesion was due to Kripke’s influence or the product of a more experienced writing staff, but I’m hoping that Season 8 can recapture the lightning in a bottle that I haven’t truly felt from “Supernatural” since Season 4.
    So, enough waffling about the backstory; let’s discuss “Survival of the Fittest.” I’ll admit, I never really connected to the Leviathans as adversaries after they left Castiel; I grew to appreciate Dick’s smarmy corporate exterior, but I never felt that sense of dread or intimidation that I got from Azazel, Lilith or Lucifer. I suppose it’s because those villains felt so otherworldly, so unconcerned with the trivialities of humanity, whereas Dick, by design, was a mirror of mankind’s corporate greed and the soulless march of capitalism. We instinctively fear the unknown, the unfamiliar, but Dick and his cronies were all too familiar to us, because those one-percenter values (or lack thereof) are currently being parroted back at us from the campaign trail on a weekly basis. A few of us might want to punch certain political figures in the face, and some of their opinions may instill a sense of dread in us, but it’s not really apocalyptic dread, is it?
    It also doesn’t help that Dick was focused on humanity as a whole, while the Winchesters’ previous adversaries were focused on them (as any good TV villain should be). We’re not watching the “random dude in Iowa eating a turducken sandwich” show, we’re watching the Sam and Dean show, so the Leviathans viewing the Winchesters as an obstacle rather than the goal undeniably lowered the stakes for me. Sure, the Leviathans wanted to squash the boys like bugs, but how is that different from any other Monster Of The Week they’ve had to face? I get that the writers wanted to give the boys another global challenge, to somehow up the ante from Lucifer however they could, but there’s no denying that Azazel, Lilith and Lucifer worked in large part because they were focused on the boys (or, really, on Sam) and personal stakes are so much more compelling than universal ones. That’s another area where Eve and her “turn humans into monsters” plan fell down, although Season 6’s issues were more widespread than simply having a disappointing villain.
    Because of that, as fond as I’d grown of Dick’s snarkiness (and lord knows I would’ve been content to watch an hour of Dick and Crowley bantering) I was glad that Dean managed to take Dick down in the finale. They didn’t outright destroy all of the Leviathans, so they can still present a challenge next season, but I felt that their endgame had run its course. The beauty of this finale — especially this ending — is that it’s truly impossible to predict where the show might go from here, so we can spend the summer in rapturous speculation.
    The Leviathans didn’t work for me, but seeing them gone did, and so did most of the rest of the finale. I voiced my advanced enthusiasm for this week’s episode in large part because it promised to utilize all of our favorite players — Bobby, Castiel, Crowley and Meg — and it delivered on that front. The episode was a fitting exit for Sera Gamble, who has always had a great grasp of Crowley’s particular brand of wit, and all of the scenes involving the boys and Castiel, Meg and/or Crowley crackled with energy.
    It’s clear that the writers have been getting a lot of mileage out of Castiel’s current lack of marbles, and Misha Collins did an excellent job delivering some truly bizarre lines. His fascination with board games — Twister in particular — was thoroughly enjoyable, and while I’m a little disappointed that we missed out on seeing the angel appear naked on Dean’s car covered in bees, the mental image alone has a fair amount of value. I’m well aware that Castiel is a divisive character, so I’m sure there are some fans who dislike the fact that Dean and Castiel got zapped into purgatory without Sam, but to me, it’s a good idea from both a creative and technical standpoint.
    We might like to ignore this fact when we’re selfishly enjoying one of our favorite shows, but Jared Padalecki and Jensen Ackles are pretty much the only actors on TV who don’t have a full-time supporting cast to lighten their filming load. Padalecki has recently become a father, and I can attest from set visits that “Supernatural” is one of the most labor-intensive shows to film, in terms of the cast and crew’s working hours, night shoots, stunts and special effects. The fact that these actors have managed seven years with practically no time off without having a meltdown is somewhat miraculous to me, and yet Ackles and Padalecki are still just as passionate and invested in the show as they were at the start. Splitting Sam and Dean up, as much as some fans may hate it, allows these hard working dudes a couple of extra days off a week to spend with their families, and if that keeps them from getting burned out and makes them more inclined to keep making the show for another couple of seasons, I’m all for it.
    And from a creative standpoint: I’ve been with this show since the pilot in 2005, I adore the Sam and Dean dynamic and am wholly aware that the relationship between the brothers is the biggest part of “Supernatural’s” success. But they’ve been together for seven years now, and there are only so many ways to tell that fraternal story without retreading old ground (some fans feel we’ve already retrod old ground a couple of times as it is). The fact of the matter is, adding new characters — whether it’s Jo and Ellen, Ruby and Bela, Bobby and Rufus or Castiel and Gabriel — allow us to see Sam and Dean from new perspectives; they bring out new sides to the boys and force them to react in different ways than they’d react to each other.
    We’ve seen Sam and Dean in sticky situations for years now, and we know how they respond when they’re up the creek without a paddle, but we’ve yet to see how Dean and Castiel would react to being stuck in a foxhole together, or how Sam truly functions as Sam (as opposed to the diet, soulless version of Sam we saw in Season 6) without his brother. I, for one, am eager to see how Sam goes about rescuing Dean from purgatory now that no demons want to make a deal with him, and I want to see Dean tied back into the mythology the way he hasn’t been since Season 4 — not just as Sam’s protector, but as someone who drives the mythology forward by acting instead of reacting (or drinking). The actors have recently expressed their desire to see Sam and Dean separated or old cast-members returned in various interviews, not because they hate each other, but because they want to explore new facets of characters that they’ve been playing for over half a decade. I think it’s natural and I think the writers should be applauded for taking that risk. I highly doubt that any real separation would go on beyond a couple of episodes anyway, but if it means shaking up the status quo and offering a new perspective on such beloved characters, I’d say it’s a worthwhile experiment.
    That’s not to say that things couldn’t go wrong — since every time Sam is left to his own devices he seems to end up chugging demon blood or cozying up to sociopaths like Grandpa Campbell, and in that way, the season finale also found itself retreading old ground. Will Dean’s sojourn to purgatory be like his trip to hell at the end of Season 3? Time will tell, but Carver has a great track record with these characters so I’m more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
    I was surprised (and pleased) that the episode chose to dispatch Bobby with comparatively little fanfare. Obviously, the character’s first and greatest farewell, in “Death’s Door,” should be his enduring legacy, but I was expecting the episode to make more of a meal over Bobby descending into darkness. I’m glad Gamble didn’t go that route, though — having Bobby leave on his own terms was a fitting and poignant resolution, perfectly played by Jim Beaver and in-keeping with the character. I think it was entirely reasonable for Bobby to refuse to let the boys go (and thereby avoid dying on the Reaper’s terms) and for him to later nobly decide that he needed to leave before he ended up hurting someone and becoming the thing he once hunted.
    It was nice that Sam got that moment with Bobby — and I thought it nicely mirrored the Season 1 finale, “Devil’s Trap,” when Dean was being attacked by Azazel in John’s body, before his father reasserted himself to avoid causing his son any further pain. Sam hasn’t had many moments like that with Bobby, so it was satisfying that he got at least one, allowing Bobby to illustrate his love for Sam before the older hunter said farewell. I also appreciated the decision not to show Bobby’s spirit burning up; the moment was far more resonant simply from witnessing Sam and Dean’s reactions, because Bobby isn’t some monster that we should relish seeing disintegrated. A part of me does feel like “Death’s Door” should have been the character’s last appearance, but I adore Jim Beaver so much that I was happy to take a little extra time, especially since the writers avoided compromising the integrity of the character.
    And how fantastic was it to see the return of the Impala, triumphantly set to Steppenwolf’s “Born to Be Wild?” Absence certainly makes the heart grow fonder, and I just hope we’ll never have to be without Dean’s “baby” for such a long time again. I’m surprised he trusted Meg with it, though, even though she was playing the distraction. I don’t love Rachel Miner’s portrayal half as much as I adored Nicki Aycox’s (Aycox had a lot more subtlety) but I’m still intrigued to see what Crowley has planned for her. Whatever it is, I hope when we next see Meg, we’ll see the Meg of the first two seasons, motivation-wise; it’s hard to reconcile the demon who possessed Sam and went on a killing and torture spree in the phenomenal “Born Under a Bad Sign” with the character we’ve seen in the past couple of years, and I’m far more enamored of the evil version.
    I loved the pacing, the wit and the focus of “Survival of the Fittest,” but I did have two complaints: first, the bizarre and, frankly, disturbing decision to make Polly the hapless human guinea pig take off her dress before Dick stuck her with the toxin — it was narratively unnecessary and distractingly gratuitous, especially considering the episode was written by a woman. Second, the inclusion of Kevin the Prophet. Despite the racial stereotyping, I’ve actually enjoyed Kevin as a character and I’m looking forward to see what the writers do with him next season, but I have to admit, he’s seemed a little extraneous since “Reading is Fundamental.” Once he translated the stone tablet, why was he useful to Dick? And why was he useful enough for Crowley to capture him? He didn’t get to accomplish much this week or last, and Crowley’s nabbing of him seemed abrupt. I wish the writers had found another way to decipher the Word of God (couldn’t Cas have done it?) so that the prophet wasn’t necessary at all — better to never introduce him than to just have him present for the sake of it. I’m sure the writers will find a way to tie him into Season 8 in a more meaningful way, but it still felt sloppy in an otherwise tightly-plotted hour.
    When “Supernatural” episodes are at their finest, the hour seems to fly by, and that was the case with “Survival of the Fittest.” It was an engaging and tense hour from start to finish, with satisfying pay-offs for those of us that enjoy Castiel’s inclusion in the story; a delicious return for Mark Sheppard, who can chew scenery in his sleep and steal scenes with the mere quirk of an eyebrow; and a suitably messy send-off for Dick. I love the idea of purgatory as some wild, uncharted forest, full of vanquished monsters that are probably eager to exact revenge on Dean, and I’m intrigued to see how much further Carver will explore that untapped resource next season — hopefully allowing Sam and Dean to grow individually so that they’ll have fresh, unique dynamics to explore once they’re reunited. And, to close, I’d like to thank Sera Gamble for seven years of hard work and passionate writing, and congratulate the talented Jeremy Carver for getting the chance to continue Sam and Dean’s inspiring journey — I’ll certainly be along for the ride.
    by Laura Prudom

    Comment by mic35 — May 23, 2012 @ 2:54 pm

  326. 325@ I would love to see how Sam does and what he does and who he meets and does it with as well but sadly not one thing in this shows history shows there is even a fraction of 1% chance that we will even see Sam before the first time Dean meets back up with him and that even if they show anything about it it will be one episode more than half way thru the season made to focus on Deans feelings about it instead of Sams that spends more than half the episode focusing on something else anyway.

    Comment by keldarlon — May 23, 2012 @ 7:12 pm

  327. I’d say that the “worthwhile experiment” Ms. Prudom speaks of – of separating Sam and Dean – is not a pleasing proposition to at least half of those commenting here. And I just read on Evil, Sam-hating Paula’s site a comment that the show can do just fine without Sam but not without Dean (and Cas, of course). I want to punch a wall. I know. I know. I should not read this stuff – my blood pressure medicine can only do so much – but I persevere in the masochism. If they want a support cast, great. Pair them with any of the wonderful characters they have killed off. Bobby, Rufus, Ellen, Gabriel, Pamela, Ash, anybody. I even liked Zac better than Cas. So maybe I’m not as indifferent and ready to give up as I’d like to think myself. Darn this show.

    Comment by RS — May 23, 2012 @ 7:37 pm

  328. Yikes, Rs, why in the world would you want to torture self with that site. Never been there, never will. We all know the show needs both boys equally. Even though I’m a Dean girl through and through, I know the show can’t survive without Sam (and neither can Dean). I will say this board has gotten a lot better with the Dean and Sam bashing, but it is still here at times. I don’t want to read either one getting bashed, or Cas, or posters (that’s somehow worse because it’s personal, I guess).

    Comment by twinster — May 23, 2012 @ 7:54 pm

  329. @twinster:
    I love that a Dean-fan knows that he cannot survive without Sam. I would never attack Dean. I love the character. I grew up the character (2 drug addled parents and a little sister and brother – take that one, John – I was a parent by the time I hit double digits). But I love Sam and the brother moments. That’s why I got into the show. I do have to admit to a real dislike of the Castiel character. But I hope I would never make an attack personal or against the actor, of whom I know nothing.

    Comment by RS — May 23, 2012 @ 8:49 pm

  330. I’ve always found those “get rid of Sam” Cas fans hilarious. They do realize that their precious angel wouldn’t even exist if it weren’t for Sam and Dean don’t they? Sam and Dean made the show work in the first place. The show wouldn’t have been successful without these two characters thanks to these wonderful actors and season 4 would never have come around.

    Not to mention their wish will never be fulfilled. Even if Cas is grossly showcased, he will never be in more than 12 episodes a season (going by past history) nor will he ever replace Sam. The show would flounder if there was no more Sam. I guess they can always indulge in their fanfiction though.

    Comment by Sara — May 23, 2012 @ 9:15 pm

  331. I keep hearing this said with major ‘tude “You better remember that this show is all about Sam&Dean and don’t you dare forget” and other variations on that.

    Well, so what? Because I know a lot of people seem to think that “Sam&Dean” SHOULD mean that Sam is the lead and Dean better be the worshipful sidekick or Dean needs to be kicked in the head. Or it’s Sam is the woobiest, most heroic hero ever and Dean is the worst brother ever who is a big meanie who refuses to understand how wonderful and special Sam is and it’s a show where everybody must remind Dean what his lowly place is.

    That may be about Sam&Dean but damn if I can see anything that a Dean fan should want in that setup. It’s more like SAM+dean.

    Sorry but hell no to another season of that.

    Comment by ORLY — May 23, 2012 @ 10:15 pm

  332. @327
    Hi RS, quick question, what is the “Evil, Sam-hating Paula’s site” you’re talking about?

    Comment by Etain — May 24, 2012 @ 12:23 am

  333. @332 She’s full of shit. Paula’s site is not a Sam hating board at all. In fact, she will not allow that kind of posts and gives warnings if it comes to that. Is it more aimed at Dean? Sure. But that doesn’t mean Sam is raked through the coals either. And just because a poster may not like the way Sam has acted or been written, it doesn’t make the site anti-Sam.
    But then again, to some of these posters here on this site if you say you don’t like the shirt Sam is wearing your labelled at Sam hater so go figure.
    @328. What a dumb thing to say. Blast a site you admit you haven’t even been to. I don’t know about you but when making my mind up about a website, I use my own judgement, not take the word of a known Dean,Cas,everyonebutSam hater.

    Comment by me — May 24, 2012 @ 2:42 am

  334. Well, I’m Castiel fan and a so called Destiel fan. I love Sam, I love Dean I love Cas. Nothing to complain about. I’m super excited and can’t wait for season 8.

    Comment by Carolina — May 24, 2012 @ 2:46 am

  335. @325. I must admit that I rarely think about the actors real life, heck even about all the work that goes into making the show. What you said makes sense about why the writers would go a certain way with the story line to give the two mains a break.

    And although I still feel iffy about Bobby’s post death story, it’s mainly because of the emotional repercussions and the whole he was turning into a vengeful spirit part. Although there have been ghosts on SPN who didn’t turn vengeful. But I liked what you said about Bobby going out on his term and the reasons you pointed out for why we saw his final moments reflected on the boys face instead of him going up in flames. I did love that scene. Anyway, what you wrote really brought a different perspective to the whole Bobby arc for me.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 24, 2012 @ 5:18 am

  336. I don’t see the writers doing another Sam latches on to the wrong people again. Soulless Sam went with evil grandpa for convenience. He didn’t give two cents about the old man. I also don’t consider the things that S-Sam did as Sam actions. Sam has come a long way since season 1. He’s come to realize a lot of the things that he thought and felt regarding his family were based on a child’s pov (not to mention the background manipulations by Azazel’s crew). He has admitted this several times over the course of the show.

    He has gotten stronger as both a hunter and as a man. So, I expect him to keep fighting while trying to get his brother back. I won’t worry about him going down the wrong path because there’s no reason for me to worry about it. When it comes to making ass-backwards decisions, both Dean and Sam have learned their lessons.

    As for Dean, I want to see some healing for him. He hasn’t been in the game for years, just going through the motions. And although I love the heck out of him for not giving up even though he is so obviously emotionally, mentally and physically tired, I want to see Dean HAPPY for once. It hurts to watch him this last season especially. If fighting his way out of purgatory is what it’ll take for him to start believing in himself and what he’s been doing again, than bring on the machete. Atleast there’s no alcohol in purgatory. Instant detox and hopefully, he’ll lose the tolerance he’s built over the years and one bitch of a hangover the first time he tries (if he tries) to drink again after he comes back will be enough for him to quit for good. So, ok, I’m a flaming optimist (or a flaming idiot depending on which way you look at it) but I just want the excessive drinking storyline gone.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 24, 2012 @ 5:33 am

  337. Of all the sites, I like Paula’s the best. It’s the most intelligent discussion site I have ever found concerning SPN. I don’t agree with everything about her reviews, but they are the most intelligent and definitely w/o the ‘everything SPN does is great.’ It is not the alter for Sam-worshiping that you get from WFB.

    @ me #333 is right — it’s not a Sam-hating site at all. Paula allows honest discussion, and she does allow honest feelings, but does not allow the ‘you Sam-hater’ stuff. Most posters there heavily favor Dean, as I do and as Paula does, so the discussion trends towards Dean.

    Paula also very much likes Cas, but accepts posts from me that does not.

    Paula also very much favored Meg over Crowley, but allows posts from me and others stating their hopes that Meg is never heard from again.

    Like me, Paula was sick to death of Bobby and felt his character was ruined starting with the ‘boo hoo, Princess’ wheelchair speech.

    Paula also heavily favors more female representation and less, what she views as misogyny, but doesn’t object to my posts that I could care less about more females and am not offended by what she deems as misogyny. She didn’t like the ‘bone this nun’ comment from Dean, but I did. I rather like Dean’s imprudent comments and feel like it’s been way too long since we’ve had those.

    What Paula does require is intelligent remarks and absolutely no attacking other posters. You’ll never see ‘if you don’t like the show, quit watching’ and ‘I’m tired of negative comments, so go away’ (i.e., complaining about complainers). She’ll give one warning before throwing a person off the site and she’s very harsh in her warnings.

    I would suggest that those who want to always see favorable Sam remarks and positive episode reviews should be regulars on WFB. That’s where you will find a group of posters with similar feelings and tastes.

    Personally, I view both those sites, along with this one and TWOP, because I like to hear all views. I wished TPTB would do the same. Maybe they would get an idea of what’s not working — especially if S8 is supposed to be about healing fan relations.

    Comment by Sheri — May 24, 2012 @ 5:36 am

  338. Re my Post #337: I want to qualify my comment by saying I am not speaking for Paula. The comment I made is my view the site — a site that I like very much.

    Comment by Sheri — May 24, 2012 @ 5:51 am

  339. Well, I’ve been there to check it out and read past articles. While there may be no outright bashing allowed which I do give them credit for, there IS a lot of disdain for Sam (and even Jared from some posters) in the comments section. Too much “super special snowflake” talk and “JP is not quite up to par” talk. That’s fine, they can have their opinions but as a Sam/Jared fan, it’s not some place I would choose to go. I prefer more balance. I like to read here because we seem to get a mix of opinions.

    Gateworld has a Supernatural section that is fun to read because it seems just about everyone there is excited about the show. WFB is also fun because while there are mostly Dean girls reviewing the episodes now, they also like Sam. Wait a minute, are we allowed to like both brothers?

    Comment by jace — May 24, 2012 @ 6:13 am

  340. @ #336
    I like that the winchesters end their days with a bottle or two. it speaks true to the job that they have. nor do I take their excessive drinking as alcoholics. I say bring on the booze and pie for dean when he gets out of purgatory.

    Comment by Dean grimly — May 24, 2012 @ 8:27 am

  341. Caught an adspot for revolution the other night on NBC.
    they boost it as a new JJ abrams show.
    they don’t even mention kripke.
    I can’t belive he left SPN “the most important project in career” to play second fiddle.
    for shame.
    And what’s the deal with haunted?

    Comment by super time — May 24, 2012 @ 8:57 am

  342. I’ll concur with the pie. Lots and lots of pies. Especially after being denied it these last couple of episodes. I was so pissed on Dean’s behalf I wanted to kill Dick with my bare hands. Not only was he forced to eat vegetables, but for him to go without pie was just plain cruel.

    As for the drinking, it just seems like it has become a crutch for Dean. And the fact that he drinks so much that it no longer affects him is scary. Dean always used to drink, but it was never to this extent before. It’s not because that I think it has impaired his ability to do the job, I’m just worried about what it’s really doing to him.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 24, 2012 @ 8:57 am

  343. Supernatural is struggling because there is far too much emphasis on characters we don’t care about, and not nearly enough on Sam and Dean. I understand that Jared and Jensen are older now, have families, and can’t manage the hours they did when younger, but I think I speak for the majority of fans here when I say that I’d rather Supernatural end than see the J’s screen time whittle away season after season. It would just be so much better to have Supernatural for one more season focused on Sam and Dean, with Jared and Jensen giving their all for just one more season, than to sit through season and poor season in the hope of seeing something that resembles the magic of yesteryear.

    Guys, one more season centered on Sam and Dean. Or none at all. You’re misleading fans, and wasting our time and money. Or just come out and let the fans know just how little you two, and Sam and Dean, are going to be involved. That way, we can immediately decide whether to watch the show or not, and it would save a whole lot of hassle, and a lot of backlash.

    One more season. No Castiel. No Bobby. No angel mythology.

    Comment by Johno — May 24, 2012 @ 9:21 am

  344. Not enough emphasis on Sam & Dean??? I hear this a lot, and I think it’s ridiculous–totally ridiculous!!!

    Supernatural is struggling because (i) the plots are getting stupid, (ii) the “big bads” are comical AND (iii) the writers re-use old story themes rather than develop new ones. Also, the over-use of Castiel is a big problem.

    Comment by JJA — May 24, 2012 @ 9:29 am

  345. No, I’m with Johno on this. I’m tired of fan manipulation. These past two seasons, particularly S7, was the Season of the Guest Stars, and they weren’t good characters that were highlighted….
    Becky? Felicia Day? Garth? Frank? The Starks? I sure as hell had no interest or investment in any of them.

    And I sure want more than 10 minutes of the two leads. The quick back and forth editing between stories was a neat little trick to make it appear that the J2s were in the episode longer than they were. All it did for me was make it hard to FF through to see the parts I wanted to see.

    I do agree with JJA #344’s points, and I hope this changes with Carver. These writers at at the top of their careers (TV network), and they are surely capable of better than what we got these last two seasons.

    Comment by Sheri — May 24, 2012 @ 9:55 am

  346. Carver is a great writer so I HOPE he does great to the Sam and Dean characters in season.

    Lol my friends will see the episodes b4 me and let me know if season 8 is a thumbs up or a thumbs down.

    Comment by ozzie — May 24, 2012 @ 10:31 am

  347. I have been to Paula Stile’s site and I know exactly what it is and I dont need a handbook to know it.It is nonsense to pretend what her site promotes doesnt and yes it is a site I have been to sadly and one I have no intention of revisiting .

    Paula is entitled to her opinion and her anti- Sam feelings but there is no requirement for every site to be like that nor should there be.

    Comment by Sarah — May 24, 2012 @ 10:51 am

  348. I’d like to take issue with this J2 need “time-off” bit. Its first ridiculous and second generally a cover to get more Castiel. J2 work hard; I think that is true. They do have 2-3 months off and granted they do some promotional things in that period, but come on! J2 make reportedly $2 million plus much more from reruns–PER YEAR. They don’t work any harder than the average American firefighter or public safety officer–or most human beings on earth. My bet is 99.9% of the world’s humans would change places with them. I love them both, but “they are overworked” is a joke. (almost always put forward by someone who wants Castiel to be front and center.)
    Separate the boys is also a thinly disguised position taken by the Castiel advocates. Sure its couched in “expanding the world of SPN,” but that’s so false. Keeping Castiel does not expand SPN it locks it into a repetitive angel storyline. And, having the boys separate, with Sam in his own story and Dean-Castiel in another, isn’t in the least new, original, or a ratings winner. That’s a repetition of the beginning of season 5. It will probably get Mo Ryan back and please Paula, and both can write rhapsodic reviews of Collins every move. (Honestly, if this guy were really a male version of Meryl Streep, don’t you think some producer somewhere would have picked up on that?)
    Paula’s site is clearly not for me. She simply doesn’t like the Dean-Sam story. She doesn’t like realistic male dialogue. She wants men presented as how she thinks they ought to be, not as how they are. She permits, I’d say encourages, Sam bashing and even Jared bashing as well. And, however deftly put or argued, her arguments IMO for separating the boys has little to do with the series direction or time off for J2, and everything to do with campaigning for more screen time for her favorite: Collins. She has a perfect right to state her opinion and run a web-site. Diversity of opinion is good. I just hope the producers of SPN don’t think it reflects anything more than one point of view.
    Just my opinion.

    Comment by CaseyT — May 24, 2012 @ 11:19 am

  349. I think the writers are being kind to Jared and his new child. I think that’s nice, however, that’s putting the actor’s preferences before the show. As much as I love Jared and want him to spend time with his new son, I don’t think it’s best for the show and may end up dissatisfying fans. It could indeed just try to be making way for the Dean and Cas show with a side of Sam. Sam’s screen time will be cleverly edited to make it look like he’s in the episode more than he is…I may stop watching if that happens.

    I think what they’re going to be doing is filming all of Jared’s scenes for a few days and then all of Jensens’s over the next few days so they don’t work every day. I don’t know if the J’s asked for time off or it’s just the writers trying to make way for the continuously dull angel to take over the series. It could be the J’s have lost interest in the show but feel they owe the fans and don’t want to disappoint them by pulling out.

    At the end of the day, what’s best for the show should take precedence instead of coddling the actors. I love Jared and Jensen but they’ve never been divas, so I don’t understand the sudden move to give them time off. I’ll give Carver a chance but if it looks like what I fear it may be, I’m done. If Sera were still a charge, I’m not sure I would be tuning in next season at all.

    A warning to the writers: I wouldn’t cater so much to the Cas and destiel fans. He has lost so popularity in the past year or so. They’re already lost so many fans, the viewership dwindling down to only representing Cas and destiel fans is not a good thing.

    As for Paula’s site, I have no desire to go to such a biased site. I hate the politics of the “Sam fans” and the “Dean fans.” Who cares? I like forums to be more balanced and not so unfairly weighted to certain characters.

    Comment by Sara — May 24, 2012 @ 12:15 pm

  350. I believe Paula is also “thesnowleopard” from IMDb. If so, I’ll just say I have never gotten the impression that she likes Sam or Jared. As “Snow,” I never read one positive comment from her about Sam or Jared. She seemed to dislike them both! I really don’t get all the Jared bashing. His acting is fine to me. I’ve seen bad actors and bad acting, and I would never put Jared in that category.

    I believe I once asked her if she ever liked Sam, and she explained how Sam’s been selfish and awful since Season 1. I basically stopped going to IMDb b/c it became infiltrated w/Sam and Jared haters. We’re talking about assigning the most negative qualities to an action. For instance, Sam giving Dean the amulet was not seen as a nice gesture to Dean but as payback to John. When I questioned how it could be payback to John when John didn’t even know about the gift, I never really got an answer.

    I would definitely classify Paula/Snowleopard as an avid “Sam hater,” and I’m sure there’s a lot of “Sam hate” on her site.

    WFB is a mostly positive site. I only recently started going there when the CW boards shut down, but the people who write the articles seem to like ALL the characters. I sense no favoritism from any of them, and I’ve rarely seen them post a “negative” article about the show or ANY of its characters. Alice is the only one who comes to mind who has posted her frustrations w/some aspects of the show this year. Now, the there are favorites among those who post comments, but I think it is mostly a bi-brother, happy site.

    I think it’s funny that it’s being characterized as a “Sam fan” site simply b/c no one bashes him! LOL! I think the writers or that site are genuinely bi-bro and basically love everything about the show. I’m fine w/the bi-bro stuff, but this season sucked so I’ve been going to other sites to complain.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 24, 2012 @ 12:24 pm

  351. Agreed Lisa1. I can’t STAND fans who have such irrational hate towards characters. It’s hard to take them seriously at all. Nothing the character says or does is right, the smallest situation or the tiniest flaw is magnified. There is no point in arguing or debating with them because they just believe the character is outright horrible no matter what. It’s not intelligent discussion, it’s just bashing.

    It’s fine to hate characters, but at least have logical reasons that you can actually give evidence over to back it up. For example, yes I hate Cas, but I very logical reasons for why I do, and they are not in my head. Cas’ treatment of the brothers’ this past season, not taking responsiblity for his actions, etc. that’s all real. I’m not bending the truth just to hate him and I do acknowledge he has done some things that are right in the past.

    These haters really just hate a character for the thrill of hating him and at the end of the day don’t really know why they do so they invent reasons.

    Comment by Sara — May 24, 2012 @ 12:38 pm

  352. I agree with CaseyT and Sara about the J2s time off. I’ve said before that I don’t have any sympathy for how hard, how many hours a day, or the odd hours they work. The last I heard, they each were making $115,000 per episode (5-6 filming days), plus all the residuals, re-runs, and such. I’ve read that they actually make in the $7 million range per year (plus they get free vacation travel with their con appearances and the same amount of time off than school teachers).

    I certainly expect to see them in every episode more than I did this past year. They were noticeably not working all that much. Acting may require weird and long hours, but there are union rules about how much time off there has to be between shooting (i.e., a night shot and there has to be a 12-hour break before an actor’s call for the next day), and it certainly isn’t a hard labor job.

    I’m still hoping Cas is only in a few episodes. I think that’s wishful thinking, but one can hope. I didn’t miss him at all when he was gone, and I have not enjoyed Misha playing Cas playing Misha at all. I was really disappointed that he ended up in Purgatory with Dean.

    Comment by Sheri — May 24, 2012 @ 12:41 pm

  353. To ozzie,Lisa,or any other SNP hater,

    I don’t care about either of ya’ll’s opinion or “feelings” about season 7, trust me I DON’T! But I do care about what it is said about my favorite show!! If you don’t & won’t say anything good about it then don’t even bother writing! What is the point?! I’ve been saying it since season 5, If you don’t like it don’t watch or comment on it! Ya’ll keep watching and commenting,and its really sad & stupid. And I don’t mean just you two,all the other haters aswell.
    I will admit I really didn’t like some episodes but I would alwasy try to single out something I liked and then I will comment and say I liked that part of the show and thats it. Becaseu I would say to myself, if the J’s got up early, memorized the lines and took their anergy to do that particular episode or SEASON is because they cared that much for it despite sucking all the ass it can suck! So I & we should do the same! I don’t care how long some of you been fan of Jared or have all the collectables of Jesen, in the long run , not of that will matter if the show gets bad comments like all ya’ll say.
    A true FAN Worships,Praises, and Defends its Heroes no matter What!!!!

    Basically, Don’t write nasty, negative comments on a blog thats meant to care for the show, thats all I ask. Is that too much….. to ask?

    So again, I say thanks for adding to the ratings.

    By the way, A Wasp is a nasty annoying inscet, nothing to do with race or nationallity. Dumbos!

    Peace Again
    Only 4 months and 5 dasy to go for season 8!!!!! I LOVE SUPERNATURAL!!!

    Comment by Adam — May 24, 2012 @ 12:58 pm

  354. Such bullshit. She doesn’t campaign Castiel’s storyline. Why people always label fans who criticize Sam as Cas fans is beyond me! I for one read her reviews and the comment section, and people simply wish for an independent Dean storyline. And I fully support that. Enough with Dean constantly being downplayed in favor of the “what is wrong with Sam” storyline. Dean deserves a myth arc and I’m so excited to see it played out in season 8. And this is coming from a Dean/Cas/Sam fan.

    Comment by Carolina — May 24, 2012 @ 1:09 pm

  355. Exactly, Sara! I just don’t get the irrational hate. It’s not intelligent, and it certainly doesn’t create good discussions.

    Honestly, some of those people hate Sam for existing, but if you point that out, you’re accused of “bashing.” I had no problem saying I hated Bela or Lisa/Ben. Why some of these people won’t admit they just hate Sam/Jared is beyond me. I know irrational hate when I see it. If you can take a sweet scene like the one in AVSC or FB and twist to make Sam into this awful, selfish, evil guy, then you’re hating just to hate, and I don’t have much more to say to you.

    I took a look at the IMDb boards around Season 5 and saw that it had become filled w/people who just seemed to hate everything about Sam. And I understand disliking Sam and his actions in Season 4. Heck, I did too. Sam did unlikeable things in that season and got ZERO POV, so it was doubly hard to identify w/him. But to twist every Sam scene to make Sam into this horrible person is too much for me. I don’t get it and never will.

    @CaseyT, I also have a hard time feeling any sympathy for J2. They knew what the show was when they signed on the dotted line. It’s a 2-person lead show. I honestly believe the majority of the fans want to the see the brothers together fighting evil rather than apart.

    @Adam – Just b/c you looked really hard at crappy episodes to find that one good thing doesn’t mean the rest of us have to do that! I watched and didn’t like what I saw. Guess what? That’s my right. I don’t have to search for that one bright moment. The whole freakin’ episode should have been a bright moment.

    This was a horrible season filled w/horrible episodes. FOR ME – only two were truly memorable (HCW and Plucky’s).

    If my opinion means nothing to you, then just skip my posts. You say you don’t care what I think . . . . so why are you arguing w/me on my view?

    Oh, and I’m not going to praise Jared or Jensen for DOING THEIR JOBS!!! LOL! This is their job. Of course, they got up and read the scripts. I don’t blame them b/c this season was crappy. I blame the writers. I have no problem w/J2’s acting or anyone else’s. My problem is solely w/the show runner’s lack of vision for the season (I enjoyed Season 6) and the writers.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 24, 2012 @ 1:38 pm

  356. @ Adam #353: “A true FAN Worships,Praises, and Defends its Heroes no matter What!!!!”

    Do you eat Turducken sandwiches?

    If all of fandom was like you, we’d still have SG as showrunner or, worse yet, no renewal and no plans by the president to continue for more than eight seasons. Under SG’w watch and miserable showrunning, she lost so many viewers that the show would not have been renewed but for the fact that overseas sales is making the WB lots of money (per Jim Michaels). If they relied solely on the viewers or the U.S., the show would have been gone. I think it’s pretty safe to say that we fans that don’t like what has been dished to us should be thanked that we vented our complaints and didn’t just give up and quit watching.

    Feel free to skip my posts, too, because I will continue to post how thoughts, good and bad.

    Comment by Sheri — May 24, 2012 @ 3:52 pm

  357. @me? I hope you weren’t referring to me about bashing that site. I’ve never been there and I don’t know anything about it. I never bashed it, I was just telling RS if she feels like Sam’s been belittle there to no end, why go there? This is really the only site I visit because who has time to visit more sites? I only know from what I read others say, and I guess I may have been a bit naive about taking someone’s word about it. Maybe once school is out for the summer, I can check it out for my self and see if the site is something I’d be interested in.

    I agree with many, SPN would not be the show it is without both J’s. I am a Dean girl (and proud of it!) and I feel if either one decided to leave, the show would come to an end (at least for me). I got into watching the show because some of my Battlestar Galactica buddies were raving about this show (way back when) that had a great brotherly vibe. I hesitated watching it until season 3 (I know, slow on the uptake), and got hooked. I had to go and rent all the earlier seasons from Netflix to catch up, and have never missed an episode since. Man, I’m beginning to ramble on! Anyhow…The show needs both boys. I like the other characters, but when it comes down to it, they all can go as long as Dean and Sam stay.

    Comment by twinster — May 24, 2012 @ 6:25 pm

  358. IMO, Winchester Family Business is a fansite(and not unlike Winchester Bros., again IMO), that is run by Sam-leaning fangirls who are only interested in kissing the butts of the present PTBS, whomever that might be at the time. They profees to love the show, no matter the quality of the writing.
    Paula Stiles is, IMO, defintitely more of a Dean gal, but she wouldn’t be caught dead kissing the butts of the PTBs, where and when it concerns the quality of the writing-and that’s the main reason that I like that site and her reviews. And she’s funny as hell, IMO too.

    Comment by Sarah2 — May 24, 2012 @ 6:29 pm

  359. Hmmmm….now you all have me interested in checking out Paula’s site to see who is right? Is it a site leaning towards Dean but respects Sam, or is it a Sam hating, crazy Dean girls site? I guess the only way to know is to check it out myself. Too late tonight but with Memorial Day weekend coming up, and the last day of school next week, maybe I can check Paula’s site and WFB to see what’s up.

    Comment by twinster — May 24, 2012 @ 6:52 pm

  360. @ Sarah2 – I honestly think they (WFB) just like what they see. That’s all. I don’t think they’re stupid for still ejoying the show or anything. They just enjoy what they see.

    Until Season 5, I had ZERO complaints about Supernatural. I loved every single season and every single episode. Yep. I loved Bugs, Route 666, Red Sky at Morning, and all the other episodes. I hated Bela but her presence wasn’t enough to make me hate the show. I loved Castiel, Uriel, Zachariah. I hated Anna, and H&H wasn’t a good episode except for like three scenes. For the most part, I enjoyed everything about the show.

    Season 5 is when I started having a problem w/the filler episodes. That was the first season, IMO, where I felt there were too many filler episodes and not enough attention on the main arc. Plus, I didn’t like the way Kripke resolved he boys’ issues from the previous year. I feel like Kripke utterly destroyed the strong, brother relationship in Season 4, but didn’t quite know how to fix what he broke apart! To me, Season 6 was a marked improvement over Season 5. This season has been awful.

    But you must understand that not everyone feels that way. Some feel the show is just as good now as it was in the earlier seasons, and that’s okay.

    To me, the people over at WFB are people who just like the show. Quality writing is subjective. If they’re happy w/what’s being written, that’s fine. I find that to be a mainly positive site.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 24, 2012 @ 7:44 pm

  361. I agree with Sarah2 about WFB. In fact, Alice Jester just recently admitted she favored Sam, but she and no one else bashes Dean. They bloggers and posters genuinely hold to a positive view of what is shown. This year Alice has had issues with much of the production aspects of the show, which I imagine will show up in her review of S7. She also genuinely liked SG as a person, but that did not keep her from overlooking the problems S6 and S7 had in the showrunning/writing departments. In fact, at one time during this season, she was considering not reviewing the show any more, she was that disheartened.

    Most of the posters on WFB favor Sam, but there are a couple of Dean posters that are never disrespected.

    I think those who don’t like Paula’s site don’t understand what she is saying when she talks about characterization. She would genuinely like for Sam to have a decent story — not ‘what’s wrong with Sam’ or Sam’s latest problem. She strongly felt that taking Sam dark was a mistake, because of how the characters were first established in the show (i.e., Sam always represented normal and Dean as borderline crazy, more comfortable in the supernatural world than Sam ever was. Yet EK flipped Sam’s role, forcing a character that never should have been dark into a role that didn’t fit. In doing so, EK didn’t bother to complete anything he started with Dean’s role. SG took it all even further, as we all know, making Dean the domestic, normal personal and then into totally deconstructing Dean’s character in order to build Sam’s up to God-like awesome.

    I’ve seen Paula call out Jared when she didn’t think he was good in a scene, but she equally states when she thinks Jensen overplays a scene. She thinks Jensen is the better actor, as do I.

    Mostly, however, her focus is on the storytelling and what doesn’t make sense script-wise and canon-wise. It’s nothing more than other disconcerting fans pick up on while viewing an episode — she just has a caustic way of stating it (caustic might be the wrong word here – try sarcastic). She also truly loves the show.

    I actually find her delivery funny as hell and highly intelligent, and sometimes I agree with her and sometimes I don’t. I have no hesitation in stating my opinion in either direction, despite her take on an episode.

    I will say that, IMO, those who feel like Adam, or those who staunchly feel the need to defend Sam, will definitely not like the site. She will not put up with ‘don’t watch it if all you’re going to do is complain,’ or calling other posters ‘Sam haters.’ She’ll come down very hard on those kinds of stupid comments.

    My point here is be aware that the site will not be to everyone’s liking, as CaseyT illustrates (and I like CaseyT’s comments here). If you’re thin-skinned, I definitely wouldn’t recommend it.

    Comment by Sheri — May 24, 2012 @ 8:28 pm

  362. @302

    First off, Sam’s plan was different than Dean’s. Dean wanted to say YES to Michael, and burn half the earth in the process. He would have NO CONTROL over it, because at THAT point, they didn’t know about opening the cage.

    Sam wanted to Say yes to Lucifer, open the cage, and jump in, thus NO fight, no killing of innocent people. Dean was willing to burn half the Earth to save the other half. Sam’s plan had more risk, but if pulled off, would yield the best outcome. TWO DIFFERENT PLANS.

    I don’t blame Dean for breaking the first seal. You think if Dean would’ve KNOWN that spilling blood in Hell would break the first seal that he would’ve caved in and tortured souls? NO. He wouldn’t have. He didn’t know, how could he?

    Sam shouldn’t have trusted Ruby. His mistake. But at the same time, the ANGELS (IE ASSHOLES) manipulated him (let him out of the panic room, changed Dean’s voicemail). You guys BLAME SAM AND DEAN, but NEED to start blaming the ANGELS, which were what the writers’ intended for us to do to begin with. THEY were the “NEW DEMONS”. Manipulating, untrustworthy A-holes.

    Comment by Jeff — May 24, 2012 @ 9:45 pm

  363. @337 & 361
    Sheri, I spent some time on the site based on your recommendation and I’m afraid it’s now a site that I will never, ever visit again. I regret giving it the hit count even once, to be honest.

    You might find Paula and the site ‘highly intelligent’ but plenty of other sites and posters have proven you can do ‘intelligent remarks’ and discuss the flaws of the show without having to resort to constant complaining and bitter, snide condescension. The absolute derision of Sam and thorough lack of interest, from both the writer and commenter’s, in any character bar Dean is palpable.

    I read a variety of articles and comments and I tired of constant barrage of remarks akin to ‘Yawn, Sam is back on screen, time to go and watch some paint dry’ ‘Sam is acting more moronic than usual’ rather quickly. I also found the snide, underhand comments aimed at Gamble and Padalecki on a personal level to be quite disturbing and completely unnecessary to any discussion about the show itself.

    I glad you enjoy it there but that site has a niche market that I am thankfully not a part of.

    Comment by Etain — May 24, 2012 @ 10:41 pm

  364. @362 Both were willing to try and stop the world from burning.For me the only difference was Dean was willing to take chance that he as Michael could have stopped Lucifer without killing everyone and Sam thought he was strong enough to stop Lucifer by taking over his mind knowing that if he failed,all of the earth would have burned.

    Not that any of what I thought mattered because not only did the writers believe he was that strong, he also managed to pick up the rings, create the hole to Hell with them AND grab Michael along the way. Not too bad for someone who thought he was the “least” of Team Free Will. Which of course was my original post. I don’t think that Sam thought he was the weaker of the team at all. If he was that weak of character, he NEVER would have fallen for Ruby’s bullshit.
    Sorry for the rant, but up until that point in the show I loved Sam and then the writers went there and made him the biggest turd ever. He’s weak, no he’s strong. He’s bad, no he’s good.He’s misunderstood,no he meant to do those things. It’s Dean’s fault, no It’s my fault..but not really.
    Writers wanted their cake and to eat it too with Sam and it fucked with a lot of fans and I’ve hated the way he’s been written ever since.

    Comment by me — May 25, 2012 @ 3:03 am

  365. @353 Adam,

    That post doesn’t help you at all. You sound very, very young and naive. Neither the world nor this board is run the way you want it. Beginning your post by telling others you don’t care what their opinion is guarantees that whoever is reading will tune you out.

    Based on how you write, I would assume you’re not a native English speaker, but if the “ya’ll” means you’re American, you will help yourself get your point across more succinctly and successfully if you learn to write better (pay attention to grammar, punctuation, spelling, and style — don’t call other posters stupid or haters).

    The J’s are fine boys, and I like them, but it’s completely naive to assume they’re “getting up early and memorizing lines” because they care so much. They’re actors who are well paid to do their jobs. I’m sure they appreciate the fans who keep them employed, but they’re not running a charity.

    There is no definition for “true fan.” It’s a ridiculous and completely useless term.

    This site, like most others, is for discussion, not inappropriate worship.

    Comment by bestshowfan — May 25, 2012 @ 4:02 am

  366. My hope is that the embarrassment over the great raincoat transfer at Castiel’s return will serve notice that the Destiel storyline–which eats up much of Dean’s storyline–has reached a point of absurdity and will be dropped so Dean can have an independent storyline. That bit was so absurd and embarrassing even Collins as well as Ackles had to swallow hard to get through it.
    We apparently had Dean throughout much of season 7 carefully folding and transferring his dead love’s uniform from car to car to car like some poor war widow trapped in her grief. I guess when they stole a car, Dean had to ditch the old car and transfer the unsullied symbol of his love to its new safe resting place. (Incidentally, two of the hulks they stole were fastbacks, no trunk. Careless stowing of such a precious object, but Dean’s mind was confused by his deep grief.) Or maybe they ditched the old car and Dean, raincoat in hand, waited until Sam brought the new car around so the precious object could find its new safe resting place. Wonder if there was some ceremonial transfer procedure? Perhaps, a Latin chant of loss and mourning? Are we to believe that Sam, as he struggled with the brain damage Castiel gave him, would have shared the grief at Castiel’s passing. I guess we are supposed to believe that. Maybe ultra-forgiving-Sam gave the Latin chant. This key event in Dean’s story must have played out 20 or 30 times. Why did we never get to see this recurring event? Was someone afraid of asking Jensen to walk through such a scene? Could Jared have gotten through such a scene without collapsing in laughter? I’d say even the producers were embarrassed to what absurd lengths they feel they have to go to feed the Destiel fans so they tucked all this away in one quick scene in Castiel’s return. Even then, they had to force Ackles and even Collins play that short scene.

    Dean will never have an independent storyline as long as the increasingly absurd Destiel bit must be served. There is simply no screen time for Dean to continue to have two storylines of two relationships: one with Sam, one with Castiel. And , despite the Destiel fans desire ,Sam ain’t going away. Don’t blame Sam for Dean’s lack of story; thank the gods of SPN that Sam does not have any real storyline with Castiel so he is free to have a soulless story or a devil-in-your-head story. Poor Dean’s other storyline besides his relationship with Sam is set: he gets to play straight man to Castiel’s jokes and fret over his slash partner’s doings and no doubt make sure Castiel takes good care of that raincoat. Woe to the drycleaner who leaves a spot on it! Badass hunter Dean will make him pay.

    Comment by CaseyT — May 25, 2012 @ 4:44 am

  367. Again such bullshit. I’m a Destiel fan and don’t want Sam gone. And most Destiel fans feel the same way. I’m so sick of being labeled a Sam hater from people like you CaseyT. Enough of that.
    Castiel’s character adds to Dean’s storyline. That’s my opinion and you’re free to disagree, but don’t call me a Sam hater who wants him gone for the sake of Dean/Cas.
    Dean’s never had one single best friend and Castiel is one. Does that make him less independent? BIG No!

    Comment by Carolina — May 25, 2012 @ 5:47 am

  368. See, this is what I will never understand. When was Sam written as “God-like awesome?!?!?”. When he was sucking down demon blood like a vampire? When he was falling for Ruby’s clear lies and manipulations like a moron?

    As a bi-bro fan, Sam has NEVER been presented as better than Dean, in my opinion. Neither brother is better than the other. Sam has made many more mistakes and bad decisions than Dean has.

    Honestly, I feel the only ones who see Sam as being “God-like awesome” are hardcore Dean fans!

    Yes, Sam was able to hold off Lucifer, but I think Dean could have done that too! The bond and love btw the brothers was strong enough to break through all that hate Lucifer has. It’s actually not a new or original concept.John’s love for Dean allowed him to break the demon’s hold. Bobby’s love for Dean allowed him to break the demon’s hold. And Sam’s love for Dean allowed him to break Lucifer’s hold.

    And, no, I’m not going to argue with anyone who feels it was the toy that got to Sam. The toy was just a trigger. It’s not like Sam had a rush of memories of playing with the toy, and that’s what broke Lucifer’s hold.

    No, Sam had memories of his brother and his love for his brother. The toy triggered Sam’s memories of Dean. That’s how I view Swan Song. I thought it was a great finale to an okay, average season.

    But I honestly think Dean could have done that too! That was NOT Dean’s plan when he was thinking of saying yes. He simply wanted to get the fight over with b/c he was depressed and pessimisstic at the time.

    @364 – Me, why are you blaming Sam for Kripke’s story arc? Why do you doubt Sam when he said he was the “least” of them all? Are you saying he can’t both think he’s the least of everyone AND still have the strenght to hold off Lucifer? I think it is entirely possible for Sam to not think much of himself and still manage to do what he did. The two are not mutually exclusive and actually have nothing to do with each other.

    Sam’s situation was never supposed to B&W. We watched jim from Season 1 and know he has a good heart. He only wanted to help people, not hurt anyone or cause the Apocalypse. It was supposed to be complex. Sam was never intended to be easily categorized as bad, good, strong, weak, etc. He’s all those things.

    Do I think Kripke did a good job of telling Sam’s story? No, I don’t. In hindsight, I realized he had done a great deal of damage to Sam in Season 4. And that’s not b/c Sam made bad choices, but b/c Kripke didn’t take the time necessary to explain Sam’s actions. We didn’t get enough of Sam’s perspective. Kripke was too excited about continuing his Ruby story and wanted to make Sam a “mystery.” IMO, when a main character begins making crazy decisions, you don’t wrap that character in mystery.

    Kripke was walking a fine line but didn’t want to Sam to go straight evil. If the story was well told, I would have been fine with Sam going much more dark than he did, but that’s me. I hated Sam’s actions in Season 4 but never Sam.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 25, 2012 @ 6:00 am

  369. If people are happy to give Sam the lion’s share of blame for letting Lucifer out, why shouldn’t he be the one to clean up the mess? But Sam didn’t anything alone. Bobby made a deal with Crowley, Cas helped get the rings, and Dean was essential to how the story went.

    Comment by jace — May 25, 2012 @ 6:44 am

  370. BTW, when did we go from “never work with demons ever, Sam” to working with demons on a regular basis?

    Comment by jace — May 25, 2012 @ 6:49 am

  371. Supernatural’s finale got a mention in TV Guide’s top moments of the week:

    “7. Separation Anxiety Award: The anti-climactic death of the Big Bad Dick Roman on Supernatural is a tad disappointing, but all is forgiven when Dean and Cas are revealed to be trapped in purgatory on the season finale. Being stuck in a world full of ravenous monsters is one thing, but Dean being separated from Sam? Inconceivable! The brothers have always been a little too codependent, and we can’t wait to see how the Winchester boys fare on their own.”

    Comment by jace — May 25, 2012 @ 7:12 am

  372. @ #368 Lisa1: Sam as some God-like awesome is what floated through SG’s mind. It was her entire S6. I don’t know what she was doing with Sam in S7. Actually, I don’t even think she knew what she was doing with Sam in S7, since in every episode we’d see a different version of Sam.

    I didn’t view Sam as holding Lucifer off; rather, that Lucifer gave up his hold when he saw Sam and Dean’s love for each other — or love of family, as the case may be — which lead him to ask Michael to step away from the fight.

    I don’t even know why this is being discussed. S5 is long gone and S6 and S7 had nothing to do with that story. These are all old debates and nobody has changed their mind or opinion. I do agree that EK went too far with Sam and damaged Sam’s character a lot.

    In my eyes, Sam has not found redemption, and SG had a very big opportunity to correct that, but she went all Becky fangirl instead. I’m hoping that S8 will rehabilitate Sam’s character for those of us that still have bad feelings towards his actions. Working with Jody Mills or Garth is not going to do that for me. Jody is a mother figure and Garth is a joke. I want to see Sam stand on his own two feet and be a badass hunter that shows some concern for his brother. It would do a lot for his character growth.

    @ jace #370. That still PO’s me, and working with Meg did absolutely nothing to further the sorry S7 story. She was a useless character in the season, except that some writer got extra character fees for her use.

    Comment by Sheri — May 25, 2012 @ 7:36 am

  373. the winchesters have been time and time again said to be disfucntionally codependent.
    I’m excited to see how they will manage without each other.
    I hope that carver leaves dean and cas in purgatory for more than one episode.
    And hope that purgatory helps cas return to his former self.
    Maybe we will discover that mary and john are in purgatory.
    John escaped hell and poofed. Mary although she was burned still managed to be a ghost that was “cancelled out” by another ghost. Ash had no luck in finding them in heaven with his string theory program. not surprising since they both did make a deal with a devil, so where the heck are they?
    And is carver going to keep his other job with being human? I hope not. I’d hate to seem him try to juggle to jobs. that never goes well.

    Comment by dean grimly — May 25, 2012 @ 8:15 am

  374. @372 – Honestly, Sheri, I don’t think you’re ever going to get what you want b/c I don’t think the writers see it as you do. I’m sure you know this, but I guess what I’m saying is this: if you’re still unhappy w/Sam b/c of Season 4 and don’t think he redeemed himself, I’m not sure if you’re ever going to see him act the way you want him to act. It’s four years later. You’re probably going to continue to be disappointed in Sam.

    I basically gave up on getting any type of satisfactory apology from Sam to Dean in Season 5 as well as any type of satisfactory reconciliation btw the boys. I recognized that Kripke didn’t have an issue w/Sam nearly strangling Dean to death and didn’t think that act alone warranted its own apology. I disagreed. I honestly think the Sam I watched over the years would have apologized to Dean for what he did and would have deeply regretted the act. I believe they showed a little bit of this in the Season 4 finale and in the Season 5 premiere, but it wasn’t enough. They didn’t give Sam a “sounding board” to express all he felt about everything he did. There was no Gordon for Sam, or Bobby, or random hookup. They kept his thoughts and feelings private. I don’t blame Sam. I just see it as what it was IMO: bad writing.

    Sam has never been presented as too proud to apologize. He clearly, IMO, loves and trusts his brother. I believe Sam would have apologized. The writers chose to not focus on that incident. A lot of male viewers thought it was fine, and maybe that’s where Kripke was coming from when he decided to trivialize that incident.

    I also realized that Kripke felt the horribly written “Fallen Idols” had done its job of patching things up btw the boys. That episode was awful, and until this season, had been the ONLY episode of Supernatural I ever hated.

    Suffice it to say, Sam never said the things I wanted to hear him say. I didn’t get the story I was hoping to see after everything that went down in Season 4. I wanted a Sam that was unsure of himself and looking to Dean to lead since he had so royally screwed up. I wanted one good conversation btw the brothers about what happened and why Sam did what he did. I was hoping to get some insight in Sam and his thought processes the previous year. I was just hoping for a “better” story.

    I guess the only difference btw us is I didn’t hold Kripke’s crappy writing and storytelling against Sam. If writing is really bad IMO, then I’m taken out of the story and just see the “bad writing.” I feel Sam got a lot of “bad writing” in Season 5, but I don’t blame Sam. I don’t see Sam as having character flaws b/c he didn’t apologize or changed his reason why he followed Ruby. I just saw it as flaky, wishy-washy writing.

    IMO, Kripke didn’t care enough about Sam to write a good story for him. But again, I don’t hate or fault Sam. I know he loves and trusts his brother. I think he “redeemed” himself for the Apocalypse. I agree that much more could have been done w/r/t the personal trangressions against Dean, but Sam can’t say lines the writers won’t write.

    In essence, my problem w/Sam’s apology in Season 5 comes down to the writers. It never colored my opinion of Sam though I’ve never hated or disliked Sam. If one has always hated/disliked Sam, then I can see how this would just further that hate/dislike.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 25, 2012 @ 8:37 am

  375. Maybe I’m wearing rose colored glasses, but I thought Sam did redeem himself in season 5. We didn’t get an emotional moment with the brothers directly addressing some of the things that happened, but I thought they did touch on them. Fallen Idol doesn’t count cause that to me was a bunch of bs. I never really understood the whole “I left with Ruby because I was trying to get away from you” bit. Especially since the whole thing was started because Sam was so desperate to have his brother back and all the different reasoning that’s been mentioned on here on how Dean’s absence is what caused Sam to make the decisions he did. So I will totally agree about the bad writing explanation, because it was bad writing.

    As for the redemption:
    Sam freeing Dean so they could rescue Adam because “you’re still my big brother”.
    Dean and Sam’s talk in the car coming back from that. Dean saying that he didn’t say yes to Michael because he didn’t want to let Sam down and saying that he’s going to have faith in Sam the same way Sam had faith in him. Sam not going ahead with the plan to say yes to Lucifer until Dean was onboard.

    They weren’t as in your face as the transgressions, but I found them especially touching and endearing because of the implications behind those words and actions.

    I’ve honestly never found any reason to hate any of the characters, especially the brothers. Have I gotten annoyed with them every now and than, yes. But I look at the dynamics between them in this light, they are brothers, with vastly different personalities which causes them to clash and at the same time with a lot of things in common to cause a lasting bond to form between them.

    Comment by Stone120 — May 25, 2012 @ 9:30 am

  376. The writers believe Sam redeemed himself so that issue will never be addressed. He obviously redeemed himself with the apocalypse but as far as his relationship with Dean, it never bothered me that he didn’t apologize because I believe the writers just didn’t write it. I never thought Sam wouldn’t apologize or try to make amends for that. The writers dropped the ball there and I found that OOC. He may never apologized for it on screen but that doesn’t mean he wouldn’t have. Sam would’ve tried to make things right between him and Dean. I won’t hold it against Sam that the writers didn’t address the issue.

    Comment by Sara — May 25, 2012 @ 10:07 am

  377. @376 – Exactly, Sara! That’s how I feel too!

    I honestly believe Sam would have apologized, and I call BS that the writers didn’t have him doing it.

    When Sam finally worked up the courage in the premiere to begin his apology but Dean cut him off, I thought I was in for a good season and would eventually see a great moment btw the brothers, but it never happened. As you said, the writers dropped the ball, and “Sam” suffered for it and will never be redeemed with a portion of the viewing audience.

    Some are completely unwilling to “forgive” Sam for Season 4. Some hated him before Season 4 and only hated him more afterwards. Like I said, I always loved Sam, so while I was highly disappointed in his actions w/Ruby, I never started hating the character. I’ve forgiven him.

    And your last sentence sums up my point: I’m not going to hold it against Sam, the character, b/c the writers dropped the ball and failed “Sam.”

    All throughout Seasons 1-3, we see Sam reaching out to Dean, trying to get Dean to open up, confiding in Dean, or telling Dean how he’s worried about Dean. Right after Asylum, Sam wanted to “talk it out.” He knew Dean was upset w/what happened, and Sam wanted to discuss it. In Season 2, we see Sam offering himself as Dean’s punching bag just so Dean can get out his frustrations and anger about John’s death. We see Sam following Dean and trusting Dean. In DT, when Dean announces that John is not their father, Sam trusts Dean over “John.” In Season 3, we see how much Sam wants to save Dean and how much Dean’s “death” kills him. Now, I know some were upset w/Sam for “not doing enough to save” Dean, but I can’t debate w/people who feel that way. Sam loves his brother dearly! He never wanted Dean to sell his soul for him. In Croatoan, he tried to get Dean to leave so Dean wouldn’t become infected and then flipped out when Dean refused to leave. Sam loves Dean just as much as Dean loves Sam. I’ve never thought otherwise. I haven’t seen any evidence to prove otherwise.

    Now, what in Sam’s behavior and attitude would make anyone think he wouldn’t torture himself over what he strangling Dean? He would! He would have twisted himself in knots to regain Dean’s trust and faith. He would have apologized.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 25, 2012 @ 10:45 am

  378. @ CaseyT #366: I agree with everything in this post; especially that Dean will never have a storyline of his own as long as he and Cas are joined at the hip. I expect Carver to pursue the Dean/Cas BFF in S8 by somehow having Cas do something to fully redeem himself with Dean.

    I don’t know whether the retrieving the Impala scene did, in fact, mean that Dean was already forgiving Cas or not. I didn’t see it that way, but maybe the writers did. Whatever. I was disappointed that Cas went to Purgatory with Dean. To me it just meant that the Dean/Cas thing will continue.

    @ Lisa1 #374: I really don’t mind that they brothers didn’t have a heart-to-heart “I’m sorry” conversation. What I wanted to see was a storyline in S5 for Sam that indicated he loved and appreciated — mostly appreciated — what his brother has done for him. Instead, we got Fallen Idols where it’s Dean’s fault because he wouldn’t give Sam his big boy pants and Sam following Dean around like a puppy dog, until Point of No Return where Sam put his trust in Dean. I loved that Sam and thought we had turned the corner, until Dean’s 2-year arc was thrown under the bus and EK went with the Sam’s stupidest plan in the world (up until the Levi plan, that is, which was even more stupid).

    I hoped to get a Sam story in S6 that showed him back at the Point of No Return Sam. Instead, we got the Soulless Sam story, with the baby-baiting episode, the watching Dean be turned into a vamp (and die — because vamps are dead things), the attempt at patricide episode, and that God-awful Humpty Dumpty story.

    In S7, I don’t even know what to say about Sam. He was all over the place, but the one thing that continued was that awful hellpain story that never was developed. Every episode, there was a different Sam.

    I don’t pick the story direction, but what I can do is decide whether I have an investment in the characters that are in the story. I lost investment in Sam at the end of S4, and he has not been redeemed in my eyes (and that doesn’t have anything to do with the Apocalypse). I still like Dean, but I have not been happy with his stories for the past two years (four years, if the throwing out S4 and S5 in Swan Song is considered), and I’ve stated that if the show decides again to continue the wussy, woe-is-me-life-is-too-much-to-bear Dean in S8, then I’ll check out. And I certainly hope Dean’s story is more than just kissing and making up with Cas.

    My hope for Sam in S8 is still that they give him some kind of a story that will show his appreciation for what Dean has done for him throughout his life and what kind of a man and brother Dean is. I have no doubt that Sam loves Dean. I just don’t see that Sam likes Dean very much. The potential for that kind of story is there (which is not to say that Sam and Dean should go back to S1-S3 Sam and Dean) now it’s just a matter of whether or not the showrunner/writers do anything with it.

    Comment by Sheri — May 25, 2012 @ 11:05 am

  379. @367 CaseyT,

    Great post. I agree completely. And I hated that Sera had to get that last dig in as she left, when Meg says to Dean, “He was your boyfriend first.”

    What an idiot line.

    Comment by bestshowfan — May 25, 2012 @ 11:19 am

  380. Geesh, that was a sarcastic line Meg did about Cas being Dean’s boyfriend. I mean, Dean looked truly annoyed with the line. Dean and Cas have never been lovers, boyfriends, or whatever you want to call it. Dean saw Cas as a friend and perhaps like a brother. He was family to him, not lovers. There is no Destiel in canon, just in people’s overactive imaginations, and like I said before, in bad fanfiction. When Zachariah said that Dean and Sam were erotically codependent, did that mean they were lovers, as well? No, there is also no Wincest in canon, just people’s overactive imaginations and in bad fanfiction. No matter how much people want Destiel and Wincest, it is not gonna happen. I get really sick and tired of reading about Destiel or Wincest in SPN show when there in no such thing. Characters joke around and make sarcastic remarks and then, BOOM, it must be canon! It is a thin line of Dean, Sam, and Cas bashing.

    Comment by twinster — May 25, 2012 @ 12:25 pm

  381. @378 – Sheri, I wanted a really good story for Sam in Season 5 too. I foolishly thought since we hadn’t gotten much Sam POV in Season 4 when he was drinking demon blood and making moronic decisions, we’d get some POV in Season 5. I was wrong.

    What can I say? For whatever reason, Kripke and crew didn’t think Sam’s actions in Season 4 warranted much more attn than he gave it. I have no idea why, but it’s what he wrote. For them (Kripke & Co.), I just don’t think it was a big deal. I think this was a miscalculation on their parts. I thought Sam’s behavior in Season 4 was horrible and definitely warranted some POV (and not “I followed Ruby b/c you boss me around”) and some mea culpas on Sam’s part, but the writers didn’t see it that way. I believe that Sam would have apologized, and that he would have been tormented by what he’d done. I would expect his behavior in the premiere to continue and grow, not just stop completely.

    Like I said, if the writing on any show becomes very bad or OOC to me, I no longer see the characters, I see the writing. So, for me, I never got to the point of hating Sam b/c I saw it as a “writer” problem, not a “Sam” problem.

    I’ve never felt like Sam didn’t like or respect his brother. I take his “shocked” comments when Dean says he’s read a certain book, etc. for what they are: good-natured teasing btw brothers. I don’t think Sam thinks he’s better than Dean. I don’t think Sam thinks he’s smarter than Dean. Sam doesn’t think he’s stronger than Dean. At one time, Sam had problems w/Dean always doing what John wanted, but they moved past those issues. Even then, I think Sam wanted Dean to be more assertive b/c he knew Dean was capable of making his own decisions and not just following John.

    All I can say is I have completely bought into the brotherly bond and relationship. I buy that these two guys love each other, like each other, and would die for each other. No amount of crappy, neglectful writing will make me change my mind! LOL!

    I remain invested in both brothers. I have no faith in the writers, but the brothers are cool w/me.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 25, 2012 @ 1:29 pm

  382. @ twinster #380: I agree. I’ve seen no slash or Destiel in SPN at all. Never have. I think remarks like Meg’s, or those from the realtors back in Bugs or the hotel lady in Playthings are funny — and, personally, I loved the psychotic, co-dependent relationship Zachariah mentioned (a funny, funny line, too).

    @ 381 Lisa1: I had no trouble at all seeing Sam’s motivations in S4. He loved the power the demon blood gave him, he was arrogant, and he thought Dean had come back from Hell too weakened to kill Lilith, which was stated in narrative. War nailed Sam on the power trip in Good God, Y’All and through Sam’s reaction to that comment, he acknowledged it.

    Yes, the story is told from Dean’s POV, while Sam has always had the mytharc (well, up until S7, which was the season of the guest stars), but I haven’t had any trouble at all from S1-S6 of knowing Sam’s motivations, so I don’t understand the no Sam POV argument that have been repeatedly brought up.

    I would also say that in every single season, Sam’s story has had a beginning, a middle, and an end, while Dean gets a beginning and then the whole things is dropped (except for him, in fact, going to Hell).

    I do particularly like the few episodes we’ve had of the two brothers from the outsiders POV — Ghostfacers and even that awful Party On, Garth, where Garth was the one seeing the elephant in the room (i.e., Bobby’s ghost connected to the flask) and brought the subject up to the brothers.

    Again, I will say that I hope both brothers get some kind of a story in S8 and that both stories will play out to conclusion, and I hope Dean’s is not just kissing and making up with Cas or bringing Cas back into the fold as the third Winchester.

    Comment by Sheri — May 25, 2012 @ 2:51 pm

  383. #368 No no, I don’t blame Sam because Sam is a fictional character..but I do blame the writers for how they wrote him.

    Comment by me — May 25, 2012 @ 3:35 pm

  384. #366″There is simply no screen time for Dean to continue to have two storylines of two relationships: one with Sam, one with Castiel. ”

    That’s an absurd statement. Even half hour sitcoms can manage to juggle multiple relationships successfully. From I Love Lucy (who had both Ricky and Ethel) to Seinfeld (who had George, Elaine, Kramer and assorted recurring characters like Susan, Newman, Puddy, etc), to any other show currently on TV, it’s the norm. Characters have multiple important relationships. It’s what give depth to the characters and the show. Having Sam and Dean joined at the hip, caring for only each other stunts both characters and the show. Fans and reviewers are increasing calling the brothers’s relationship creepy and unhealthy. Gamble catered to those fans who wanted only Sam and Dean and the show was a disaster because of it. It looks like Carver can see the massive error Gamble made and is bringing back Cas and hopefully other old and new characters.

    Comment by Anisa — May 25, 2012 @ 6:31 pm

  385. @Anisa The mistake Gamble made was highlighting supporting characters above Sam and Dean. Even though she took away some of the supporting characters (only to bring them back later), it was not truly Sam and Dean only because very little time was ever spent on their relationship and the story wasn’t even about them at all. The issue was that Sam and Dean were not the center, it had nothing to do with no Cas or Bobby. If that were the case, I would think the ratings would increase upon Cas’ return but there was no change. She did not cater to these fans at all by simply pulling Cas and Bobby.

    Comment by Sara — May 25, 2012 @ 7:01 pm

  386. Maybe other shows can handle multiple relationships, but this one has a history of being unable to. Not only did SG focus on the support characters, give both seasons over to support characters, and ignore the one important relationship in the show both seasons — the brothers — she was incapable of even telling a decent story for one brother, let alone two, in the little bit of screen time they were given. A major complaint from the boards I’ve read is that the brothers seemed like buddies and there was no emotional connection between them.

    Even with the Dean/Cas story in S5-S6, Sam was the third wheel off in the corner every time Cas and Dean had scenes together. In S4, Sam had the Sam/Ruby story going while Dean had the Dean/Cas one, and I seem to recall lots of fan complaints from all quarters about the brothers’ estranged relationship.

    I would say that SG succeeded in catering to no one, and that was the problem.

    Comment by Sheri — May 25, 2012 @ 7:48 pm

  387. Went to the movies and saw the Aventures and liked the brothers Thor and Loki…saw Battle Ship and liked the Hopper brothers…love for eachother…shame the Sam and Dean bromance died 4 seasons ago.

    Comment by ozzie — May 25, 2012 @ 7:53 pm

  388. @384 – I agree with Sara and Sheri. Sera didn’t cater to the fans who love the brother relationship, esp. this year. I thought the brother relationship was fine last year, but this year, they’ve esp. seemed more like partners, co-workers, or buddies than brothers!

    They barely talked this year!

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 25, 2012 @ 8:41 pm

  389. @382
    “I had no trouble at all seeing Sam’s motivations in S4. He loved the power the demon blood gave him, he was arrogant, and he thought Dean had come back from Hell too weakened to kill Lilith, which was stated in narrative. War nailed Sam on the power trip in Good God, Y’All and through Sam’s reaction to that comment, he acknowledged it.”

    Saying Sam only did what he did in season 4 because he loved power and was arrogant is like saying Dean only wanted off the rack because he enjoyed torturing and was selfish.

    For some reason people tend to forget about the self destructive path Sam went on in Mystery Spot after Dean’s death, (which could explain why the only reason they can give for Sam doing what he did was because he wanted power) so they can’t relate it to the characters actions in season 4. They’ve also neglected to consider many of Sam’s actions and works from season 1 onwards, when Sam showed there was little he woudln’t do to protect Dean.

    Dean was now worse than dead. Sam wanted to kill demons, save lives and get revenge for Dean. All of that he could do be accepting his abilities. If Sam wanted power for powers sake he’d have started doing what he did a lot earlier in order to save Dean, he’d have said yes to leading the demon armies or he’d have said yes to Lucifer.
    ‘Could’ Sam have gone darkside because of the power the blood gave him? Yes. But he didn’t. Could Dean have become a demon because of the sense of power and enjoyment torturing gave him? Yes. But he didn’t.

    Secondly, why is wanting to be stronger a bad thing? Sam had spent his entire life being beaten down by demons. They killed his mother, his girlfriend, his friends (Caleb and Pastor Jim), they were responsible for the death of his father and his brother, who was, at that time, being tortured at their hands. Why was Sam wrong to want to be able to stop them? Should those who are bullied just accept it, or should they try to empower themselves and put a stop to it?

    There are huge similarities between Sam and Dean in season 4. Did Sam like that he had the power to kill demons? Yep. Dean turned to torturing in hell and yes, it was because he was tortured. However, he enjoyed it, and that ‘wasn’t’ as a result of being tortured. I dare say he enjoyed having power after three decades of having none. The same applies to Sam.

    Did Sam say Dean was weak? Also yes. Putting aside the fact that Sam was on demon blood when he said it (which people always seem to ‘forget’ about when judging him) and looking at it impassively; Dean had just returned after spending years in hell. Regardless of how strong Dean is, it is completely unrealistic to think that isn’t going to affect him. Most people would end up mentally traumatised and changed after a month of torture, let alone 30 years. Add to that Dean had spent ten years on the road to becoming a demon. Throw in the drinking, nightmares and bottling everything up, would you trust him? Would you believe a man who had gone through that would be perfectly capable of making a decision about the creatures that put him into that position in the first place? Would it be fair to ask him to make a decision about it in the first place? It would be like asking a torture victim to be on the jury of his/her torturers trial. Dean told Sam that he was too emotionally involved to make a decision in relation to Amy and he couldn’t be trusted to do so because of the time he spent; would the same not apply to Dean in relation to demons?

    Comment by Etain — May 25, 2012 @ 11:24 pm

  390. I think there may be a gender issue in the discussion of Sam and his need to apologize to Dean for his demon blood thing that some fans seem to feel should have taken place in season 5. As people state there was no long apology scene Sam to Dean, but would that have be consistent with the characters and with male behavior? Women, IMO, are simply better at verbalizing their feelings–and much more comfortable doing that. You can have a long conversation and a good cry afterward with a female friend. Some fans might want that type of conversation between Dean and Sam, but Krepki gave the series a male point of view. My take, is that Krepki knew men get through conflict much more by what they do than what they say. And, furthermore Dean in particular, but also Bobby, repeatedly equated emotional discussions of any real depth, length, or nuance as feminine from Dean’s “No more chick flicks” to Bobby’s “Lets end this before we grow woman parts.” And, both were downright afraid of such conversations–at least in Krepki’s years. My take is that Sam was always more comfortable with such conversations; Dean was not.
    All that is to simply say, I don’t think Dean would have been open to any long apologetic conversation from Sam about the demon-blood thing–and Sam knew that. Sam had to act differently, and he did. He rejected demon blood when it was forced on him(Free to be You and Me); he drank demon blood to save Dean and Castiel(My Bloody Valentine), and he drank demon blood to power up and trap Lucifer (Swan Song). I think Sam knew a chick-flick apologetic girl talk with Dean would neither redeem him in Dean’s eyes or be seen as anything but worthless words; Sam had to change his behavior to apologize to Dean.
    One of Krepki’s strengths was depicting Sam and Dean with realistic male dialogue and behavior. Emotional exchanges between Sam and Dean were sometimes intense but always short–that’s what gave them such great impact. A long Sam apology to Dean would have been perhaps consistent with Krepki’s Sam, but totally out of character for Krepki’s Dean either to participate in or to see as solving the hurt. Krepki wrote them as working class males, not as sensitive, comfortable with feelings-sharing men. Sam’s apology came in the form Dean understood: by what he did, not what he said. If you are looking for the apology in dialogue, you are looking in the wrong place. At least, IMO.

    Comment by CaseyT — May 26, 2012 @ 5:20 am

  391. I think that’s a plausible explanation, CaseyT, but narratively it feels like a cop-out. We’ve had more than one scene of Dean apologizing and explaining his feelings to Sam, even though he was early in the series tagged with the “no chick flicks” line. We’ve seen Sam override Dean’s protests/deflections before to say things he felt needed to be said. So to shrug away the idea of apologizing for his S4 actions as “Oh, well, they’re guys” doesn’t really work. With respect, it just seems like excusing the PTB for not doing something they should have done. To be honest, it’s not like show post-S2 to S3 showed that much aversion to the boys sharing their thoughts/feelings on screen. So if it’s good enough for Dean, why not for Sam?

    I think it’s just as likely that the PTB were afraid of stirring up any more animosity towards Sam by bringing all of his actions, particularly the 4.21 fight, back up. Or maybe it was that they didn’t think that words would be enough. But I still think that’s a scene that should have been included, even if Sam had to shout over Dean to get it said. Yes, given Dean’s reaction to John’s speech in 2.1 he certainly isn’t used to apologies and encouraging words, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be offered.

    As you pointed out, Sam is much more likely of the Winchesters to offer such words, so the fact that he didn’t is particularly glaring. If I am provided with multiple apologies in dialogue from Dean over the years, I see no reason to think I’m in the wrong place to hear the same from Sam. I’ve thought that maybe it had something to do with Sam’s continuing little brotherisms–Just as Dean tends to see Sam as the little brother that needs to be protected first and forewmost, Sam tends to see Dean as the big brother who really can’t be that hurt by him and still seems surprised at times to learn that Dean is a whole person outside of being his brother. In fact, we have seen Sam apologizing for other things, like the Apocalypse, for example, so the fact that he wouldn’t want to clear the air here? I think there’s potentially a number of interesting explanations here, but I don’t think just can’t be handwaved as “Well, guys don’t do that”, because that doesn’t really sync up with what’s been on-screen. Just my perspective.

    Comment by yeah — May 26, 2012 @ 6:52 am

  392. @389 – Etain, good post and thoughts but I think the problem is the writers didn’t depict – at least in my opinion – Dean as being any weaker or less capable of making decisions after he returned from Hell. I know many said Dean was “weak,” but I never saw that weakness. Yes, Dean had nightmares and was drinking a lot in that episode before IKWYDLS, but none of it was consistent. None of it, IMO, seemed to impact his ability to hunt or his decisionmaking. It’s like w/Sam this year. He was supposed to be barely hanging on, I guess, but I never saw that. He was perfectly up until the episode when he was admitted into the asylum. The same thing occurred w/Dean in Season 4.

    You had Sam saying Dean was “weak” or incapable of handling Lilith but I never saw that to be the case. Dean was hunting. Dean never seemed afraid to go after Lilith; he just wanted to think it out and come up w/a plan. They hinted at some excessive drinking and nightmares in ONE episode and then noothing. Without showing or portrayng Dean in a much weaker state, it made Sam seem arrogant and just mean w/r/t his brother.

    I couldn’t understand where Sam was coming from b/c Dean seemed, for all intents and purposes, fine. If Kripke had wanted to show that Hell had negatively impacted Dean, then he should have weaved in elements of that throughout the season. I haven’t watched Season 4 in a while, but I just don’t recall being too concerned about Dean or his state of mind.

    IMO, the show fails at actually telling these stories of emotional distress and problems. I don’t know. They had no problem weaving in Sam’s depression and nightmares re: Jessica in Season 1. I’m not sure why they were incapable of showing Dean excessively drinking or having nightmares for more than one episode. I can assume Dean’s been having problems that we haven’t seen, but that hurts the story, IMO.

    Honestly, I don’t think we were supposed to agree w/Sam in Season 4 or believe he was speaking any truth about Dean. If we were, I can’t help but think we would have seen more evidence supporting Sam’s thoughts (i.e., more drinking, more nightmares, more hesitation re: hunting, etc).

    @390 – CaseyT, I fully admit that being a woman I wanted to see more of an apology from Sam to Dean in Season 5. I hear what you’re saying, and read posts from many male viewers who thought no big apology was needed.

    Since we both agree that Sam is more inclined for big speeches or apologies than Dean, then I would have loved to see a scene like in ELAC when Sam just tells Dean how he feels and walks away. I could see Sam saying something like, “Dean, I know you don’t want to hear it, but I have to say it.” And then just say what he feels however a guy would say it. LOL!

    I never expected some big weepy apology or overally emotional scene btw the two, but just something like the scenes in Fresh Blood, ELAC, Croatoan, or CSPWDT. I was fine w/Sam expressing his thoughts and Dean just listening. Dean got to tell Sam how he felt at the end of 5.01, but Sam never got that moment. And I think it’s something the character would have done at some point.

    I do understand your point though.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 26, 2012 @ 7:32 am

  393. @391 – Yeah, you and I were on the same wavelength! I couldn’t agree more w/you about the apology and definitely feel it was a copout to not have Sam apologize!

    As we both pointed out, it’s not like he hasn’t apologized for things before or expressed his feelings to Dean. He should have gotten the opportunity to do that in Season 5.

    At some point, I feel the writers slowly stopped caring about Sam and his POV. I think that’s the main reason we didn’t get any scenes from him re: his actions in Season 4 or how he felt about anything!

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 26, 2012 @ 8:03 am

  394. Well yes the writers stopped caring but what went down in season 4 was 4 yrs ago and he didnt really do that much wrong in season 5 IMO.Season 4 fed into the Sam hate and Eric knew that the scene where Sam try to strangle poor Dean the whole way that scene was set up was to portray Dean has helpless while Sam was the beast and it worked judging from the fact despite Deans transgressions in that whole situation it is that one thing people focus on.

    Sam has walked around with a target on his back for a long time and the writers loaded the gun and how Sam felt in any of this from Deans deal through was immaterial.What I find interesting his how other characters like Castiel are absolved yet people still call on Sam to make up for something said or done 4 or 5 seasons ago yet no one is expected to do it the other way round.

    Sam could go on forever making it up from having the Lucky Stars when he was 4 right through to now the show has set it up very easily .I am sure there will be something he will have to make up for in season 8

    Comment by Sarah — May 26, 2012 @ 10:38 am

  395. @393 I have always wondered if S4 ended up having more backlash re: Sam than the PTB really expected. While they had no problem having Sam accept and express guilt about breaking the last seal (which I never really thought should have been held against him, as Dean would have killed Lilith if the opportunity had presented itself), they seemed almost afraid to touch his relationship with Ruby or his actions re: Dean. I think Sam is and always been more of a big picture guy, less interested in the day to day hunts than the overall goal of the season, and there’s nothing wrong with that necessarily. So it did make sense that he would focus more on Lucifer than Dean/his own behavior, but at the same time it didn’t allow Sam much room to grow. I respectfully disagree that we didn’t get Sam’s POV on his actions in S4 (though I concede that it wasn’t as much as he should have gotten)–I just think they focused on the wrong things if they were trying to repair the brotherly bond.

    So instead we heard Sam talk about breaking the world and suddenly being “the least of them”, without really giving us a reason why he suddenly thought that or how he arrived with that. There was a sudden burst of “I’m angry”, but it didn’t really go anywhere. I think as much as there were fans angry that Sam didn’t apologize or verbally indicate his was making amends, there were also fans who were angry Sam had been portrayed so negatively and were against a “Sam apology tour”, as I’ve seen S5 characterized. Look at Fallen Idols–we got Sam calling Dean out on his perceived culpability re: the Ruby situation before we got any insight on Sam’s culpability (“I’m angry”). So I think the PTB tried to straddle the line and show Sam was remorseful over the big picture of his actions, but ignored the small picture, and since for many fans the bedrock of the show is Sam and Dean, that was a mistake that Sam still suffers from and Dean suffers from the rebound resentment from varying fan bases. They could have avoided all of this with one scene, like you suggested in 392, so it’s too bad they didn’t.

    Comment by yeah — May 26, 2012 @ 10:43 am

  396. first off i am a huge dean fan-i like sam but the dean character is my favorite. i still can’t figure you guys out arguing about sam needing to apoligize to dean for trying to strangle him. dean has punched sam on many occasions. for whatever reason-(being a dean fan-sam deserved all the punches) and he lost to dean on every single one of thier fights except the one he is all pumped up with demon blood and tried to strangle dean and you guys are holding that against him??? i don’t get it. i just took sams apology when dean sam and ruby were at the convent after he killed lillith as him being sorry for everything he did to his brother so i don’t get the beef i really really don’t.

    i loved season 1-5 -I loved the fact that you could watch just the beginning sam and dean scenes and the last scene of the episode and know what was going on with the season arcs. Season 6 had some good episodes my favorite being “and then there were none” but lacked a true overall story arc. it jumped from arc to arc. but there were some individual episodes that were really really good. same kinda goes for season 7-although the good episodes weren’t as plentiful as in season 6-there was no story arc at all and sam and dean were guest stars in thier own series. i am hoping for bigger and better for season 8.

    Comment by animal — May 26, 2012 @ 11:10 am

  397. @ animal: I agree there were more decent episodes in S6 than in S7, that there was no focus in either season, and that S7 was the Season of the Guest Stars. I loved the fact that the brothers ‘loose all their resources and have to depend on themselves’, except they never did; and the ‘Butch and Sundance’ theme, which never was. The only thing they lost was the Impala, and even it got a 30-second return.

    Like you, I am hoping for a much better S8.

    Comment by Sheri — May 26, 2012 @ 1:26 pm

  398. @ Sheri at post #34 you said Bobby was separated from his flask. This is not true. We saw him possess the hotel maid and he made her try 3 different combinations before he got the right one. He tried Dean’s birthday, Sam’s birthday, lastly his own. This opened the safe and the possessed maid pocketed Bobby’s flask so that he could move freely.

    Comment by cindy — May 26, 2012 @ 3:57 pm

  399. Bobby will return in season 8 as ghost Bobby still…and instead of landing in Purgatory with Dean and Castiel..Iam guessing that Sam will reconnect with Bobby up ground.

    Comment by ozzie — May 26, 2012 @ 6:41 pm

  400. @ cindy #398: Not when Bobby was sitting in the backseat of the random car of the week and went to see what was in the alpha vamp’s mansion in There Will Be Blood. In the scene just prior to that, Dean puts the flask in the random car there at the gas ‘n sip, and he and Sam walk a few feet away to talk about Bobby and then proceed to enter the store where they notice all the Turduckin zombie people.

    The point in possessing the maid is that Bobby had already learned to grasp things, had even tried Dean’s and Sam’s birthdays on the safe combo, realized it was his own birthday, possessed the maid and used her body to open the safe. He didn’t have to possess her at all. He could have gotten the flask as GhostBobby and went into SucroCorp invisibly. He had, after all, previously slurped Dean’s beer before he even learned to grasp anything.

    Of course, these giant plotholes were used to show Bobby’s progression into angry ghost, but one would think TV network writers would do a little better than that kind of sloppy work. But, then, one would think if they killed off a fan favorite character in a two-episode arc that covered a winter hiatus, and then two mini-hiatus breaks, they would leave him dead — not bring him back as a ghost that played absolutely no role in killing the big bad evil of the season. What was the point? All they accomplished was to bring Bobby back to have a second, quick, less than stellar goodbye again. It boggles my mind.

    It also boggles my mind that they would kill off a fan favorite support character that’s been around since S2 and is a human w/o supped up special powers, but bring back Cas, whose story should have ended in S4, and have to once again figure out a storyline that he can be shoehorned into without becoming the reliable deus ex machina that he became in the first place. See below.

    From the Germany and UK Cons Misha Collins panel as reported on WFB:

    “Misha Collins said in his Meet & Greet in Germany that the plan for season 8 is for the story line to make sense again…He also mentioned in his UK panel that he was not happy with the way crazy Cas has been written, he thinks it’s a fine line and he felt that line was somewhat overstepped in a few episodes. He is also aware of the problem of how difficult it is to find a role for Cas that does not diminish Dean and Sam or be the lazy way out when it comes to problem solving.”

    Of course, Bobby’s character had also become a deus ex machina who provided all the answers all the time, as well as the brothers’ mentor that forever kept them in the juniors in training role, so I guess it’s a case of six of one and half-a-dozen of the other in that regard. I didn’t miss Cas or Bobby when they weren’t shown this season, and that is why I was hoping for all new support characters in S8.

    Comment by Sheri — May 26, 2012 @ 8:26 pm

  401. Ahhhh such a freakin awesome show! Totally addicted my Friday night date, I know pretty sad! I just loved loved that the Impala is back so hot! Ok and just for the record I love all the charachters on this show, it would not be the same without them. So going to miss Bobby I would love to see him come back somehow!

    Comment by Shar77 — May 26, 2012 @ 8:49 pm

  402. @400 sheri-hmmmmm that is interesting that misha would say that. could it be that tptb hear us about not wanting cas around and told misha to talk down his role??? i hope they have heard us. i do think that the great majority of spn fans did not want dean stranded in purgatory with cas. some like cas and want him around but not in the dean purgatory arc. i think the only ones that really like dean/cas in purgatory are of course the destiel people. it will be interesting to see what the rest of the cons news will be thru out the summer. i want j2’s opinion.

    Comment by animal — May 27, 2012 @ 7:00 am

  403. @Sheri and Yeah – I want to try to explain what I mean when I saw Sam got no POV, starting in Season 4. Hopefully, it won’t be too long.

    Let me start by saying I feel Sam was greatly damaged in Season 4, but I didn’t realize it until Season 5. I loved Season 4. I know Kripke didn’t think the show would be renewed, so he went for broke, and it worked for me. The show started w/a bang, IMO, and kept on firing throughout the entire season. That said, I can look back now and understand the ESG complaints during that season. Sam wasn’t given much perspective, and it hurt him.

    Why do I say he had no perspective?

    1)I never got a good explanation for why Sam chose to associate w/Ruby, and to this day, I still don’t know why he did it.

    I have a hard time understanding why Sam ever spoke to Ruby again, and telling me he was suicidal and depressed was not good enough. In IKWYDLS, that wasn’t the reason they gave. According to that episode, Sam hooked up w/Ruby b/c Ruby said she could help him get revenge on Lilith. Kripke didn’t make it seem like he was so suicidal and depressed that he didn’t care what happened to him. He began associating w/her b/c she said she could help him.

    My problem w/that is I don’t think Sam would have EVER spoken to her again after she spoke gleefully about watching Dean’s flesh sizzle from his bones while in Hell and how she wished she could be there to see it. Not to mention, she lied to him for an entire year and jerked him around. I don’t care how depressed/suicidal or revenge-seeking Sam was, I just don’t see him talking to her again. And the writers didn’t bother to give an adequate explanation for why he did. IKWYDLS never cleared this up for me. Many people call that Ruby’s episode rather than Sam’s. It didn’t drive Sam’s story/arc.

    I liked Season 3 Ruby. I had no problem w/KC’s acting. I knew Ruby was untrustworthy and evil, but I liked the snark KC brought to the character. Kripke couldn’t accomplish what he wanted in Season 3 b/c of the writer’s strike so I understand why he carried over the story to the next season, but why did he have to sacrifice and ruin (temporarily for me, permanently for others) Sam’s character in the process?

    Ruby had proven herself to be nothing but a manipulator and a liar, so there’s no reason why Sam would associate w/her again. Doing so made him seem moronic and stupid, and Sam is anything but stupid. Was anyone surprised when Ruby turned out to be a “evil?” I think not. Most of us knew that in the 3rd season. Sam would have known it as well after NRFTW.

    If Kripke had to continue w/Ruby, why didn’t he have her approach Sam as a “non-demon?” She could have been another “psychic kid” whose family was also killed by Lilith or demons. She could have been just another hunter who could have connected w/Sam on that level. As a PK or a regular hunter, she could have encouraged him to develop his powers b/c the demons are overpowering everyone, etc. Maybe we in the audience could have learned her true identity at the mid-season break, but Sam learn it a few episodes before the end but still work w/Ruby b/c he was hooked on demon blood by that point. We still could have had episodes like The Rapture and the following one in that scenario. Maybe, Ruby could have revealed herself when Sam was really fiending for another hit of demon blood! As far as other demons alerting Sam to Ruby’s true identity, they claimed she was a powerful witch so maybe she could have used a spell to cover her identity. I don’t know.

    I just know it would have been better to not have Sam willingly associate and work with any demon, esp. Ruby! That really hurt him, esp. since it wasn’t clear why he had to work with her.

    2) The reasons for why Sam was drinking demon blood and following Ruby kept changing, which is why I think we needed a scene where SAM voiced his own thoughts.

    In IKWYDLS, Sam seemed to be going after Lilith for revenge. Having re-watched Season 1, a need for revenge is very in line w/Sam. He is always seeking talking about revenge and wanting to get revenge in Season 1. I think that was a fine reason. Now, Dean’s point about Dean being back now was a good one and demonstrated that there was more to what Sam was doing than revenge.

    What else was there? Well, Pam and Chuck mentioned other things like wanting to be powerful, arrogance, etc. I liked those things as well, and they make sense to me. Sam, however, never adopted those reasons. He kept saying he had to do what he was doing to stop Lilith. Was Sam lying to himself? I don’t know b/c Sam never really talked about his reasons for following Ruby, drinking demon blood, etc. And when Sam finally spoke in “Fallen Idols,” he laid the blame on Dean.

    Yes, I know Sam said Dean’s bossiness was ONE of the reasons he followed Ruby, but I think that was the WRONG thing to say, esp. since NONE of the others reasons had ever been articulated BY SAM.

    First of all, Sam doesn’t always do what Dean says. I can name several examples where Sam disagreed w/Dean and decided to go his own way. Second, I think it would have been better for this part of the reason to come AFTER Sam acknowledged the other reasons. Sam never adopted Pam’s or Chuck’s reasons. He flat out denied them. He never actually gave any other reason than revenge or needing to stop Lilith from breaking seals. This was a huge mistake b/c the first time we get to hear Sam talk about why he did what he did the previous year, it sounds like (to me and a good portion of the audience) he’s blaming Dean’s bossiness for his lame, stupid decisions.

    Is Dean bossy? Sure. Was Dean’s bossiness a reason Sam started hanging out w/Ruby and drinking demon blood? No, it wasn’t. One, Dean was “dead” when Sam started w/Ruby so how in the world can Dean’s bossy nature be at fault? Two, Sam was going to go what Sam wanted to do regardless of what Dean said. I do think Dean is bossy, and for a large percentage of the time, I think Sam does what Dean says. I think Sam acquiesces to Dean’s will quite a bit and follows Dean’s lead. HOWEVER, when Sam really wants to do something, he’ll do it.So, acting like this was the first time Sam was doing something of which Dean disapproved is just disingenuous. Finally, I don’t think Dean’s characteristics/personality had anything to do w/the choices Sam made.

    I think Sam felt powerful over demons in a way he’s never felt before. I think Sam wanted revenge and didn’t care that Dean was back; he still wanted revenge on Lilith for killing his brother in the first place. I think Sam was blinded by the power he had. I think he enjoyed it and didn’t want to stop. All of that is perfectly okay w/me. I just wish Sam had actually said some of this stuff. I don’t want to adopt other character’s reasons for Sam’s actions on Sam. I want to hear from Sam’s mouth why he did what he did. I feel there was more to Sam’s reasons than Dean being bossy, but we never got that from Sam.

    @Animal – DJ Qualls was also interviewed and apparently he thought the first script in which he appeared was really stupid. When Sera asked him to make a return appearance, he agreed on one condition: a better script.

    I don’t think Misha’s comments have anything to do w/any of the viewers hating him. He simply may not like the way Cas is being written, and may realize that he doesn’t actually have a real role on the show anymore. He may also feel his character is just being shoehorned into episodes rather than having an actual purpose.

    Remember, both Misha and Jensen and Bob Singer thought the scene of Dean giving Cas the trench coat back was silly and stupid.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 27, 2012 @ 9:22 am

  404. @403 Personally I feel this show has always favored the character of Dean over the character of Sam in the story. How could one not think that when Sam is the only one who has whole episodes where he is there for a few minutes or less. When Sam is the only one to have not been in the show for over half a season (as I have said before what we had in the first half of that season can no more be thought of as Sam Winchester than a clone or someone from an alternate reality or a imposter with his memorys ETC).
    When in more than half the season premiers we follow every single step that Dean takes and we only see Sam when Dean meets up with him again as if only Dean matters and its perfectly fine for Sam to not be their in multiple ways, shapes and forms.

    When things and events in Sams life are used as nothing more than tools for others to express their feelings and or show and or say what they went thru when those events happened instead of any of those things about or from Sam himself such as for a couple of examples among many first being Sam having Thanksgiving dinner with that family we will never know anything about that for Sam such as were John and Dean not there with him and was he left alone on that thanksgiving? did that family ask Sam to join them or did he ask the? was he close to that family or was that family in fact just demons as we later learned from lucifer?
    the second example being the episode The End not once in that episode did we learn nor were any of the characters even Dean written to even so much as ask the an oh so simple yet vastly important question that would have told us what happened to Sam in that future what life did he live being all alone what did he experience think or feel what horrors did he live and the final part and the one word simple question that if the show runners ever bothered with Sam would have had Dean ask his possible future self when he learned that Sam has said yes and that is “why?” why did Sam say yes.
    When you get more about Sams state of mind in simple one sentence never even glancing past the most superficial surface things statements from other characters than from Sam himself when Dean almost never lets a single thought or feeling go unvoiced even if its takes an episode or 2 before he does.

    Man i’m depressed for Sams character after writing this.

    Comment by keldarlon — May 27, 2012 @ 10:55 am

  405. Lisa1—I agree with a lot of your points here. I do think Sam was damaged by the events of S4, but I don’t think the real effects were felt until S5. I think S4 was well-done, and I found Sam’s downward spiral believable and heartbreaking. I think it’s the aftermath and its handling that really dealt the big blows to Sam, because they hand-waved everything away instead of truly giving him a redemption arc. I do think we got Sam’s POV on a lot of issues, but it wasn’t well done and in the end it was just swept under the rug, which is why his character still gets called on his actions years later.

    1) I agree that it didn’t make the most sense for Sam to associate with Ruby in S4, but I could see how it was possible. I did see Sam as suicidal and depressed (trying to make a deal to trade himself for Dean and charging into a demon trap in the flashbacks of IKWYDLS served as evidence for me–I didn’t need him to come right out and say it), and I did see him needing, as Frank put this season, a reason to get up in the morning. Revenge has been a part of Sam’s character since S1, so latching onto that idea made sense. So when Ruby was able to come in and offer him assistance in association to his reason for getting up in the morning, it did make sense to me that Sam would allow it, especially once she manipulated him into believing he could take control of his powers and therefore his life. So by the time Dean was on the scene, I did see how Sam could have formed a working partnership with her. (Plus, at this point, if the boys can work with Meg it’s hard to chastize Sam for Ruby.)

    Now, did it make less sense after Ruby revealing her delight in Dean’s imminent demise in 3.16? Sure, and one line about her most recent time with Lilith in Hell could have probably handled that. But I could see how it would happen, so I accepted it. With respect, not finding Sam’s POV plausible or understandable doesn’t equate with not having POV. Just because it was sloppy or not super well done doesn’t mean it’s not there. In IKWYDLS there was no insight on why Ruby was doing what she was doing, but there was on Sam. So I have to disagree with you.

    Sidenote—I never thought Ruby was doing anything but lying and manipulating Sam from S3 to 4.22, so yes, it did reflect badly on him that he was led so completely. I do see how Kripke didn’t want to get rid of her, though, and I think bringing in another character to completely snowjob and led Sam down the path to ruination wouldn’t have reflected on him better. They could have had another woman, either Ruby in an unknown form or another adversary, come and serve in the same capacity, but I’m not sure Sam would have looked any smarter—he would have looked like someone who was willing to be led by the nose by anyone who flattered him and promised him power/control/revenge. I think it would have been interesting if the reveal had come after he was addicted, but I think perception wise we would have ended up in the same place.

    2)I think we did hear Sam say why he was drinking demon blood, and he was pretty consistent on stating it was to stop Lilith, both for revenge purposes and to stop the seals from being broken. I think Dean being back paralleled the argument that John seemed to face—you have your family right there, so focus on them instead of seeking revenge. In that, Sam and John do share a similar single-mindedness, and I think that should have been explored more.

    Yes, other characters mentioned other reasons, like power, arrogance, addiction, etc., but we never saw Sam really acknowledge these. I think he was lying to himself, and I think he did state clearly that he thought he was working with/using Ruby, depending on his moods, to achieve his purpose. I don’t think he changed until S5. In hindsight, he was scrambling for the reasons why he fell so far, and that’s when his self-examination kicked in. So I do think we saw Sam’s POV—it’s just that he didn’t see himself clearly until much later in S5, so his POV was flawed.

    Unfortunately, Fallen Idols happened, and speaking from personal perspective, it is one of the most damaging episodes of the series. It derailed any Sam redemption arc that might have been developing by laying the blame on Dean, even though he’d clearly been hooked by Ruby before Dean ever returned from Hell. As you said, we’ve seen Sam disagree with Dean and go his own way, and we’ve seen Dean follow Sam’s lead, even though he didn’t think it was a good idea. So the sudden “Our partnership NEVER worked” came out of nowhere, and it ended up being damaging to Sam because it seemed like he was blameshifting instead of really examining himself. It was also damaging to the bond as a whole, because show was flatout telling us that the partnership we’d enjoyed for the first seasons had always been terrible but we just hadn’t seen it. Bad.

    I will agree that, yes, Dean is bossy, and I’ll go further and say that Dean’s issues didn’t make it easy for him to really connect and help Sam as he was spiraling. I think you could, in a way, parallel S7 to S4—both brothers were so crushed under the weight of their own issues they couldn’t really help each other effectively. But Fallen Idols put the onus on Dean to change instead of Sam, and it just didn’t work.

    I also agree that I wish show had further explored Sam’s realizations about why he liked the power he had with Ruby. I thought that was sympathetic—with so much chaos and helplessness and uncertainty in his life, it had to feel good to take charge and believe himself the master of his own destiny. But just like show using multiple characters to pass judgment on Dean for being “weak”, show used other POVs to state what they thought about Sam’s motivations, allowing neither Sam nor Dean to really respond. So to make an incredibly long story short, I agree that Sam did suffer from POV, but I think that was much more an issue in S5 than S4. I had more sympathy for Sam in S4, but S5 leeched a lot of it away because they refused to deal with any of Sam’s issues or allow him to have a true redemption arc or self-insight beyond “I’m angry” or “I’m the least of you”, with no lead-up or follow-through on either thought.

    Wow, that was a lot. I’ve enjoyed the discussion, though.

    Oh, and as for all the Misha/DJ commentary on the writing—let’s face it, every single character have suffered from bad writing this last season. Every single one. I don’t think it’s wrong for any actor associated with this show to be hoping for better in S8.

    Comment by yeah — May 27, 2012 @ 11:25 am

  406. Yeah, I don’t think it’s wrong for actors to hope for a better season 8, but I wish Misha, DJ and Jensen wouldn’t complain about the writing in public. They make a lot of money on that show and they’re part of a team that also includes the writers. It’s unprofessional. And, although I agree with him, Misha’s comment about season 8 “making sense” again is incredibly insulting to Sera, who is not even on the show anymore. As long as they agree to work on the show, I wish the actors would just shut up, do their jobs and cash their pay checks.

    About season 8, I’m really interested in the good that an involuntary separation could do for the brother relationship. I hope Sam and Dean are apart for at least, 5-6 episodes, and that Sam is the one who saves Dean.

    Comment by JuliaG — May 27, 2012 @ 1:57 pm

  407. I agree with absolutely everything you’ve just said, Julia.

    Comment by Johno — May 27, 2012 @ 2:44 pm

  408. @404-i think you need to go watch the end again and some of season 4, 5, and 6-your question as to why did sam say yes was answered in the end. dean future said he hadn’t seen nor talked to sam in 5 years. that had made dean present to realize he had to forgive sam and try to keep them together because as he said to sam when he called him for the reconcile-“we keep each other human”. that tells me and should you too if you learn to watch spn as a whole picture instead of a episode to episode series that sam future said yes because he didn’t have his brother to keep him human.

    come on keldaron-every season from 1 thru 6 1/2 was about sam. his demon blood arc -his journey with that and the aftermath of his choices with that. dean on the other hand has just been the voice of reason thru it all. sam’s consience if you will. when dean was around-sam was able to fight his inner demon-when dean wasn’t around-sam fell prey to the demons and his demon blood. its simple. i think you just don’t know how to look at spn as a whole picture.

    dean had only one arc that carried thru a whole season-one. his going to hell arc in season 3. after that all arcs went to sam, cas or no arc at all. big picture man-look at the big picture not just

    as for the thanksgiving dinner thing. obviously -again look at the whole picture of spn and the way we know the boys grew up. it is easy to assume that john was gone-dean was off somewhere (it doesn’t matter) and the girl was in sam’s class and obviously asked him over for dinner. what else do you need to know. it was a thanksgiving of normalacy that sam never new with his father and dean. sam never felt the love of a real family or ties to his family like dean did because sam never got the benefit of a mother who loved him. because she died. dean was old enough to know the love of a mother and family love because he was older so family meant something to dean-to sam family meant nothing to him. other than when someone invited him to a family thing. i think some of you who are feeling that sam is slighted in some way seem not to have gotten that point. sam never had nor knew a NORMASL family situation-it doesn’t/didn’t mean the same to him.
    watch the episode again where dean and sam go to heaven-watch it 3 or 4 times until you get it. it gave sam’s character development big time. why he does/did/thought/thinks like he does.

    Comment by animal — May 27, 2012 @ 2:44 pm

  409. @406 juliag wow-just wow-actors should just shut up and do the lines they are givin??? really??? you think that??? j2 are invested in spn-7 going on 8 years there is no show without j2 period. sera diserves the insults that she got from actors/fans/producers and directors because under her watch spn was not even close to what it was in seasons 1-5. she had no focus -no vision for the show. they moved spn to friday to have it die so she just let the stories roam around with no vision at all thinking the show was going to die in the friday night slot. when the powers that be realized spn wasn’t going to die there they got rid of her and brought jeremy in. so basically sera was there to help spn die. the fan base and the actors voicing thier opinions kept spn alive. you are so wrong in you statement. its funnhy.

    Comment by animal — May 27, 2012 @ 2:54 pm

  410. Animal, I’m not saying that the actors shouldn’t care, or that they shouldn’t raise questions or deal with problems internally, away from the public. I’m saying that they are paid millions to work on that show, and that they shouldn’t air their dirty laundry in public. They are WAY too open about the behind the scenes stuff and I wish they would stop.

    Comment by JuliaG — May 27, 2012 @ 5:08 pm

  411. man I was reading everything and you guys really need to get over season 4 and 5 it happen deal with it and if I had a brother 1st did not want me to RIP! and the he goes behind my back telling me he has a year to live and I can not do a god damn thing about it and the he just left me in a world that is shitty all alone and the only person who really had my back is a she demon and then comes back from the dead tell angels that he is the good when I prayed every day and boss me around tell me I do not trust you. and you can not stop the 1st demon I go alitte evil too sorry.

    Comment by kerinda h — May 27, 2012 @ 8:57 pm

  412. Personally I think it speaks to how comfortable the actors are with the fans. They talk to the fans like they talk to their friends. They feel they can be open with them, it’s almost as if they don’t identify them as the “public” or “fans”.

    Comment by Sara — May 27, 2012 @ 9:04 pm

  413. @412
    Unfortunately, speaking to friends and speaking to fans are two completely different things. If actors air their grievances to their friends then it will remain in private, if they say it to their fans it will be aired around the world and publicly discussed at length on fan sites, something Collins would do well to remember.

    Comment by Etain — May 27, 2012 @ 11:01 pm

  414. Still there is one thing.. In season 3 Ruby said she could make Sam strong enough to kill Lillith.. Dean refused that Sam would work with her.. But what if he gave permission? That would mean Lillith would be killed before Dean went to hell, so he would not beak the 1st seal, and if he did break it, the final seal (killing Lillith) couln’t have been done. If Sam killed Lillith with the help of Ruby, before every other seal was broken, the apocolypse couln’t happen at all.

    I dont understand why people hated seasonn 5.. Of course, the show went from 2 hunters going after monsters, to a story about the bible, but I really did enjoy season 4 and 5 about the apocolypse, and the fact that the first 3 seasons were all somehow conected to it (John who was supposed to break the 1st seal, Dean going to hell to break it, Sams friends being demons all the time). I think the writers did a good job.

    Season 6 is a different story. Bringing Samuel back, I dont see the point. The Crowley/Castiel deal was good, and I though Castiels role in Season 6 was good, at the end. I didn’t really care for him at first in season 6, the apocolyse was over, why wouldn’t he just return to heaven and stay there? The reason was Raphael wanting to bring back Lucifer and Michael, and Cas trying to stop it, with Crowleys help.

    Season 7 was in my opinion, the worst storyline of all seasons. Especially the Leviathans. First they were the most dangerous monsters, and in the last episode they killed him without a fight at all.. Like the writers just wanted to get rid of the Leviathans. I wonder if we will see them at all in season 8, I hope they will be killed in the first episode by Sam and Crowley. Wonder what will happen in Purgatory to. I do hope Cas stays in season 8, for 6/7 episodes. For the rest, I’m really excited about it. The last episode was not bad at all, except for the fact it was to easy to kill Dick Roman.

    As for the characters paying for their mistakes, I think they all did. Dean suffered enough in hell, had to deal with Sam almost every season, lost Bobby (twice), Ellen, Jo, John, Castiel (even though he’s back), Mary. He saw his brother turn evil, was unable to stop him in season 4, and now he’s in purgatory. Sam suffered in hell, with Lucifer and Michael, for more than a year, well, his soul did, his body was out very soon. His wall was broken and he went trough hallucinations, almost even died if it wasn’t for Castiel. And then Cass, he lost his father, his brothers, his connection with heaven, to save and help Dean and Sam. Hasn’t he sufferd enough? And now he has taken Sams hellpain.

    And what was the mistake they all made? They were trying to save the world and eachother. Dean went to hell with the deal because he saved Sam. Sam was trying to kill Lillith, to save Dean and get revenge for his death. Castiel was trying to avoid Raphael to free Lucifer and Michael.. They all did bad things, for GOOD reasons, and they all suffered for it. I think its good to start clean in season 8, and forget all the bad things they did, because they all did it with good reason. 4 months is to long, I think I start watching season 1-7 again lol.

    Comment by Robin — May 28, 2012 @ 1:57 am

  415. @414: I totally agree with you about season 5, to me 4 and 5 were the best seasons of all. Still I see what some people don´t like about them. It´s also true that season 6 was going nowhere in some way and the show lost a lot of the elements that once made it special. Biggest loss took the relationship between Sam and Dean I suppose and I really hope they can fix this in season 8. Anyway I like the angel arc, just not too many angels please, and I´d like to have a story being told again. Because when you watch the last two seasons you feel like one episode doesn´t belong to the other, with (formerly) big issues being dropped again and oh-so-undefeatable-monsters being beaten just like that.
    Good thing, hope dies last.

    Comment by Mary — May 28, 2012 @ 5:54 am

  416. I see that Collins in an Australia interview tells us that he expects more Castiel in season in 8 than in 7, and that since it would make no since not to have some Sam interaction that their will be a Sam story in season 8.
    I’m sure Jared must be reassured that he still will have a role in season 8.

    Comment by CaseyT — May 28, 2012 @ 6:40 am

  417. I’m pretty sure Jared has never had to worry about having a story in the entire series since the whole show is centered around him.

    Comment by me — May 28, 2012 @ 7:24 am

  418. @416-ummmmm sam is way more important to spn than cas- so of course jared/sam is going to have a role in season 8. i am sure there was no question that sam and dean will have a bigger role in season 8 than they have had the past season. expecting cas to have more in season 8 is just that expecting. i personally i’m hoping for 5 minutes screen time and thats good enough. we don’t need a cas around anymore-his character has worn its welcome.

    @410 juliag-the actors only answer questions that they are asked at cons and interviews. they tell behind the scenes stuff when asked and its entertaining. the things that the actors have complained about are things that the fandom already knew. writing sucked this year -story line was in shambles, and sera sucked at being a show runner. we already knew that-they just were agreeing with us. no harm no foul.

    Comment by animal — May 28, 2012 @ 7:28 am

  419. on topic of misha collins and his mouth-yea he needs to rethink how he interacts with fans. i saw a video of him being asked if it was because of him that spn got season 8- he said yep it was because of me”. Now i know by the tone of his voice and his actions that he was kidding. but he is in a foreign country where english can be misinterpreted very easily. so the girl who asked the question was like-awww thank you!!!. misha needs to understand who his audience is. thats why i don’t like him he is clueless.

    Comment by animal — May 28, 2012 @ 7:33 am

  420. 417 really? I see the show and its all about dean. dean this dean that dean DEAN F_ING DEAN! please if season 8 goes like season 7 I am done with the dean love fest ok!

    Comment by kerinda h — May 28, 2012 @ 9:35 am

  421. @420
    ..Yeah the show is allll about Dean. Dean the poor human with Demon blood. Dean the “special” kid. Dean the chosen one to stop Lucifer. Dean the human with super powers. And let’s not forget the Dean who, poor little special snowflake is he got to blame it all on Sam..

    Oh wait, that’s not Dean, but Sam.
    If your idea of the show being all about Dean is him having a drink and then standing back while everyone else kills the MOW I’d love to see what you have to say about a real storyline.
    Christ someone needs to change the locks on that door because the morons keep coming back.

    But I actually agree with you on one thing. I think Dean should be killed off and then the show can just be Sam. Then, I don’t have to watch it anymore and Jensen can go on to do something where he can be appreciated.

    Comment by me — May 28, 2012 @ 10:02 am

  422. @me The show isn’t about Sam or Dean…It hasn’t been for the last 2 years now.

    Comment by Sara — May 28, 2012 @ 10:07 am

  423. Season was not all about Dean…have to disagree. Season 7 started with Castiel sinking into the lake, while Sam dealt with his Lucifer head issues which were driving him Crazy.

    While Dean dealt with his angel buddy gone, and Sam not being 100%..Dean fixed the impala and talked with flesh Bobby.

    It was after the mess of Dean killing mama monster Amy …Sam’s childhood friend that season 7 went sour.

    The writers kept flashing back to the Dean stabbing Amy over and over again and to the Dean has a secret from Sam.

    Then as Dean dealt with his big secret, the brothers were dealing with the boring Leviathans who went from( hot cheddar cheese) canibal scary ,too corporate boring as mellow yellow.

    Sam learned the truth from Levi Dean and then departed to re-unite every season b4 past ,to work with real Dean…then Becky came and ALL the others Characters Garth, Charlie, demon bloated head Meg, and there was also the 2 Buffy ex-characters and their boring witchy divorce War of the not so roses.

    Season 7 was really all about the other supporting actors…and less about Dean and Sam…and the SPN dumb ass writers got the memo , not to do that shit again and focus on the brothers …based on info from Misha Collins at the Down Under Con this weekend.

    Comment by ozzie — May 28, 2012 @ 10:14 am

  424. Too long, but long posts seem to be in lately.
    I actually enjoyed Sam in 4 much more than Sam in 5.
    In 4 Sam demonstrated that he was human, but flawed; he could be mislead by good intentions, a pretty girl, and manipulated by angels. He was capable of addiction and the corrupting nature of power. I would liked to have seen more of him in 4, but he had a great story. His actions were the result of his core of humanity, not any evil nature. I think it had been firmly established by three seasons that Sam Winchester was good man; but season 4 demonstrated the even a good man like Sam was corruptible like all humans. I think those who dislike the character because he was vulnerable to the temptations of power, sex, and personal righteousness must assume they would easily have resisted those temptations. Few people have been able to resist all those temptations at once, and I know few people I think would. I’d say again, Sam was a victim of his own humanity and that rang true to me. I don’t want SPN to be about two always morally upright, always correct acting, always clear-headed, cardboard comics super-heroes; it’s about two human brothers. Sam doesn’t need defending or condemnation for his actions in season 4 , he just did what most humans would do. That’s not what most of us would like to think about ourselves, but the human record is that most of us would. I don’t think Krepki was trying to destroy Sam, but to demonstrate that his heroes were human, and he certainly didn’t destroy Sam in my eyes, he made Sam more believable as a person.(I wish, for example, we could see Dean treated as if he were capable of being something besides everyone’s moral compass.)
    Season 5 Sam was to me a complete wash-out. He slinked around like a guilt ridden criminal condemned for his “choice” to kill Lilith and took condemnation from everyone from Dean to Ellen to Castiel (who of course hypocritically knew Sam didn’t know the outcome of his choice.) After those first few episodes, he was all over the place. He suddenly became angry–very angry, which was dropped, Sam Interrupted. Sam became a cynic at the end of Swap Meat, turned to alcohol in Devil You Know. He was the most rational and caring fellow in the of the group in Point of No Return and shortly thereafter was self-described as the “weakest” of all– only to be the hero in Swan Song.
    I don’t know what happened in 5. For most of 5, Sam was whatever the episode called for, a totally flexible secondary character who could be rewritten to fit any episodes demands. After using Sam so well in season 4, it seemed as if Krepki lost interest in Sam, wanted to concentrate more on Dean, and bring the new regular Castiel into the show, and then suddenly at the end remembered Sam was in his series. He dropped Dean’s Michael story and Castiel’s search for God and made Sam the hero, which ended up serving none of the principal characters well. I for one was pleased to see Sam reasserted as a major figure in SPN at the end of 5, but that left Dean simply looking on and Castiel doing the rather silly task of reviving everyone for the rather obvious purpose of next year’s casting.
    To me Sam was a more watchable character in 6 and 7 than in 5. I don’t feel a need to have Sam redeemed or forgiven for Season 4. He did what he did, and no amount of words or even deeds will undo that, but he remains a basically good guy trying to overcome evil. He’s human, not perfect or anything close to perfect. So what? He’s human.

    Comment by CaseyT — May 28, 2012 @ 10:19 am

  425. Sam is human but unlike Dean , Sam was blessed with evil / demon blood from Yellow Eyes and picked by Lucifer to be his only true vessel and when Dean understood all the facts about Sam being used by Lucifer and the other angels then he realized that Sam was always being groomed and followed by the true king of Hell ,Lucifer.

    Dean finally realized what he father had told him..that if he could not Save Sam then he must kill him. Sam himself told Lucifer that he’d kill himself ..rather than let Lucifer take him…to which Lucifer said he bring him back to life…si its ridicules at how some fans continue to hate a tv characters that has been written as a guy just trying to be normal and do good and fight evil like his older brother Dean …who was chosen by the good side of heaven and God’s # 1 warrior Michael.

    Comment by ozzie — May 28, 2012 @ 11:00 am

  426. To be honest, I haven’t liked Dean since S5. And in S7, I downright couldn’t stand him. I would just get annoyed every time he was on my screen. To me, he just came off as an arrogant dick. I don’t know, I just didn’t like him last season. I hope the writers fix Dean’s characterization next season, because I haven’t really cared for him in a long time and last season was the limit for me in regards to Dean.

    Comment by Jessica — May 28, 2012 @ 11:05 am

  427. @472+6-being that dean nor sam had much to do last season (season 7) i think you were never a dean fan to begin with. all we got from dean and sam was -nothing much-really. they both were funny in the clown episode. dean took his shirt off and had sex which in my book made season 7 worth it-any season with dean having sex is a good thing. sam got married-yea -but becky is very irratating. and thats about all i remember about season 7-everything else was about the guest stars. my favorites being the second time we saw garth and the red headed lesbian episode was good. sam was in the hospital for going crazy but that episode was about as ridiculous as you could get. he actually hunted even though he was crazy??? really???? and dean actually carried castiels coat from pos car to pos car with him??? really??? not the dean i want to see on spn. i mean where was deans balls anyway??? sera cut them off thats what happened.

    Jessica i think you are a cas fan and just was po’d because dean didn’t kiss on cas or forgive cas this season. the writers did that 1 thing right this season. they let dean continue to be po’d at cas for what he did to sam. the real dean would have killed cas for that-and that is what should have happened not this boo hooing crap. just sayin. but you entitled to your opinion-just be honest as to why you feel the way you do.

    Comment by animal — May 28, 2012 @ 11:28 am

  428. We have gone past the Real Dean .Besides the writers wouldnt allow Dean to go all Rambo on Cas it isnt in their relationship mandate.

    I would like to of seen Sam to been allowed to of got angry for what was done to him but again it isnt really in the mandate of this show to allow Sam human responses . So we move forward with Dean and Cas in Purgatory and Sam? doing whatever it is he will be doing? and no doubt will be fine/ok doing it.

    Comment by Sarah — May 28, 2012 @ 12:56 pm

  429. I dont understand why people blame ´Sam´ or ´Dean´ anything lol. It´s the writers who wrote what they wrote, so they messed up. Nobody writes perfect. Some people want Castiel around, some want him gone.. Some people want a Dean story, some a Sam story.. They can´t please everybody. Readin the comments, some people dont like the show anymore, some still do. The writers have to make choices, and they just can´t please everyone. I agree they messed up a few storylines. Many times they said something in one episode, and a couple episodes, or the next season, its not true anymore (Levi´s cant be killed by cutting their head of, now they can, the part about Lillith being killed earlier, angels can be killed by demons and human to, etc…)

    Comment by Robin — May 28, 2012 @ 1:32 pm

  430. I think pretty much everybody is excited about how the season ended and the possibilies it raises. It’s about time Sam and Dean were apart for awhile. It’s crucial to their growth. They’ve been joined at the hip for far too long. Creepy and sick are words I keep hearing in regards to their relationship. Season seven was all Sam and Dean all the time and it was a disaster. No one was happy. Especially without Bobby and Cas. I know there is a small minority that wants the brothers joined at the hip forever but I think TPTB realizes that is a very small segment who would probably be happier reading wincest fanfiction anyway.

    I do agree Paula Stiles site is a joke. She worships Dean and hates Sam. She tolerates Cas as long as he backs up Dean but hates him the minutes he has a different opinion. Her site is more of a temple to Dean than any legimate reviwer site.I think she makes a fool of herself in her drooling devotion to a fictional character.

    It’s really not the Cas fans who want to get rid of Sam. It’s the obsessed Dean fans who go on and on about he never gets a story and it’s all about Sam and Sam doesn’t bow down before Dean’s specialness and Sam is mean to Dean. They just want Cas around because Cas is usually on Dean’s side. They’d hate him as much as they hate Sam if Cas ever became Sam’s friend.

    Comment by Anisa — May 28, 2012 @ 2:44 pm

  431. @430-no i think your wrong-the majority of the fans want spn to be about sam and dean-yea there are a few factions that want more sam or more dean-but everybody in both those groups want an end to cas/destiel. yes it does seem we all like DEAN in purgatory. its the fact that cas is there with him that is the sticking point. we will see where the writers and carver take that issue. sam on the other hand-that to can go alot of differant ways. jared wanted the brothers to be apart so i think singer gave him his wish. i don’t mind as long as the story is coherent and both brothers are the main focus. equal time. and still have a brotherly bond.

    Comment by animal — May 28, 2012 @ 4:02 pm

  432. Sam and Dean haven’t really been together since EK split them up in season 4 by adding the Angels Vs Angels stories for 2 seasons until EK departed from the show with his 5 year plan.

    In season 4 the brothers were at war with eachother. Sam was with demon Ruby 2 and Dean with his savior Castiel.

    In season 5 they united to fight Lucifer , and then Sam became Samfir and went to Hell ,taking with him Adam and Michael interwined.

    Sam reappeared thanks to annoying Castiel who was looking for human souls for his angel civil war.But it wasn’t the Real Sam but Souless Sam for 11 episodes…and in one episode Dean beat the life out of Souless Sam, and then in another told him you are not my brother. So again in 6 , the brothers were a p a r t …more than together.

    Season 7 focused so much on secondary characters that some SPN fANS felt that something was M.I.A besides the impala ….and realized that the brothers did not seem as close as the earlier seasons.

    Season 7 became the brothers a p a r t working with other characters like Sam & Becky…while Dean had Garth. We had Dean with Meg and Castiel working together …in some episodes too. Or Sam on his own or with Bobby.

    Its seems the writers had found a way to kill the chemistry / bromance that fans craved to see for many episodes.

    Then at the CW Upfront Jared himself said it…to my horror . Jared said that the bromance might not be there in Supernatural anymore but it was there with the Js and that he can’t wait to work APART from Jensen…even though he loved Jensen still.
    So it will be the Destiel show below and the Sam +…Garth above…til mid season.

    Comment by ozzie — May 28, 2012 @ 4:45 pm

  433. Well, I’m not happy about Dean being in Purgatory, and I wouldn’t have dumped him there. If they had to do the Purgatory storyline, then I would have preferred that both boys be sent there.

    This Purgatory storyline seems like a repeat of past stories to me. I know some are excited about how much Dean will grow and learn from his time in Purgatory, but I just don’t know. I don’t have much faith in the writers to tell a good story.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 28, 2012 @ 5:04 pm

  434. @433 – Ozzie, great post! This year, I felt like the brothers were more like co-workers like brothers! Other than MTNB, HCW, or Plucky’s, I felt no connection btw the brothers. They barely talked to each other this year.

    And the emotional stories (i.e., Dean’s depression and Sam’s hallucinations) were isolated and handled separately. Sam had one emotional plea to Dean about Dean’s state of mind at the end of the episode with Dean’s daughter, but that was it! Outside of HCW, Dean never inquired about Sam or how Sam was handling his wall falling. It’s like they removed all the closeness, all the heart from the show.

    For me, the heart of the show IS Sam and Dean’s relationship. That is why I watch. If JC is smart, he’ll get back to what made this show great: Sam and Dean!

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 28, 2012 @ 5:17 pm

  435. Comic Con isn’t until July 12-15th this year. They haven’t announced SPN will be in it, but it was expected to be if the series was renewed for S8. Ben Edlund is confirmed as one who will appear, but it appears to be a writer’s panel and not SPN as the reason for his attendance.

    I’m sure SPN will go and we’ll hear about it within the next couple of weeks or so. I’m really anxious to hear what spoilers come out of that event, what the J2s say and if Carver will writing the premiere episode.

    Comment by Sheri — May 28, 2012 @ 9:59 pm

  436. “To be honest, I haven’t liked Dean since S5. And in S7, I downright couldn’t stand him. I would just get annoyed every time he was on my screen. To me, he just came off as an arrogant dick. I don’t know, I just didn’t like him last season. I hope the writers fix Dean’s characterization next season, because I haven’t really cared for him in a long time and last season was the limit for me in regards to Dean.”
    To be honest, I haven’t liked Sam since S1,and by S7, I downright couldn’t stand him. I would just get annoyed every time he was on my screen. To me. he just came off as an arrogant dick. I’ve never really liked him. I hope the writers fix Sam’s characterization next season because I’ve never really liked him. He’s very self-centered and too self-involved to me(from what I’ve actually seen-and in spite of what the writers have often tried to push through their dialogues)and always has been. I reached my limit a long time ago(I think the tipping point was when Sam chose to sleep with a demon at the very same time as his brother was being tortured horrifically and seemingly eternally by her kind; and then when in Fallen Idols, Sam even blamed Dean in part for his making the decision to choose Ruby over his own brother, thus only adding to Dean’s guilt over this and everything else under the sun that Dean has been made to feel guilt over by the writers, and this being something that the writers have NEVER! had Sam own up to, even while they have Dean own up to every little thing he’s done wrong concerning the brother relationship, even and including things he did “wrong” as a child/parentified child to Sam. And yet people still wonder and pull their hair out over as to how and why the Dean/Cas dynamic could in any way be preferable to the Dean/Sam dynamic by many in this fandom…

    Comment by Sarah2 — May 29, 2012 @ 6:39 pm

  437. @436 Just because YOU feel that way doesn’t mean everyone else does. Even most of the Sam haters liked him in the beginning. I mean how do you even ENJOY the show? I don’t see why you’ve hung around all this time just for Dean. The Dean/Cas dynamic is NOT preferable by the way…they are just the loudest. Look at how the ratings are declining, if the Dean/Cas dynamic is “preferable” it’s because most of the fans have stopped watching. Even if people hate Sam, he’s still 10 times more interesting than Cas will ever be. Sam at least has a personality, is complex, and doesn’t make dumb comments.

    Comment by Sara — May 29, 2012 @ 7:19 pm

  438. @Sarah, I do believe Sara2 was making a point about the poster who bashed Dean relentlessly and wouldn’t be watching SPN anymore if too much time was given to Dean. I see that you didn’t defend Dean when Jessica(?) was saying she couldn’t stand Dean…I don’t like seeing anyone say they hate either character, why watch the show if you hate one of the leads. I read Jessica’s post, and it did irk me quite a bit but you, I will admit your post irked me more when you called out the Sam hater but not the Dean hater. I really wish neither haters would post here, all it does is cause more hate, more bashing. It is so ridiculous.

    Comment by twinster — May 29, 2012 @ 7:56 pm

  439. Are you seriously taking issue because I didn’t address a Dean hater? I didn’t even see that comment because I only read the last few recent comments. I didn’t scroll back up to the past 20 or 30 comments. What bothered me about her post is that she was inferring that the majority of the fans felt that way as opposed to just her when it’s obvious that’s just her own view. Now as I’m looking at the comment Jessica made, while I don’t agree, she made it clear it was her personal opinion. My statement about not understanding how someone can only watch for Dean and enjoy the show should indicate I don’t understand hating EITHER brother. Geez.

    Comment by Sara — May 29, 2012 @ 8:15 pm

  440. @Sarah2 I couldn’t care less if the Dean/Cas dynamic is “preferable” which I doubt by the way. The show is about the Sam/Dean dynamic and that’s the way it will be. The Destiel fans can hold on to the occasional Dean and Cas moments they have, let their imaginations run wild, and indulge in their fanfiction.

    @Sara I also think people DO forget about the 2 million fans that stopped watching. The ratings show the Sam/Dean dynamic was more popular and if the Cas/Dean is now more popular, it may be because apart from some Sam and Dean fans who are sticking around, they may be the only fans left.

    Comment by Kiki — May 29, 2012 @ 8:28 pm

  441. Shockingly true. I really am a great fan of SPN but that´s it, Sam and Dean as “co-workers” as you said. For a series it should be easy to form relationsships, they have enough time to develope deeper aspects and leave the superficial behind. And SPN did well there, just till season 6. Then it was just like everybody´s got problems, but they won´t share or care. I have to confess i´m a Sam-fan, but still, Sam without Dean, he loses his humanity, like in season 5, ep. 4 shown…

    Comment by Mary — May 30, 2012 @ 2:59 am

  442. Don’t really care about Sam/Dean joined at the hip anymore. The show changed, for the worse not because of a lack of interaction, but because the mythology arc sucked. No plot, no care. Honestly guys. Not everything is about seeing Sam/Dean or Cas/Dean on the screen. If the writers can’t write a coherent arc for the season, it’s no wonder 1-2 million people stop watching. Btw I enjoy Cas/Dean and can’t wait for the purgatory storyline. It better be good.

    Comment by Carolina — May 30, 2012 @ 4:24 am

  443. we all need to step back and take a breath-all this hate within the fandom comes from one place and one place only-sera gamble. she heightened the separation between sam and dean and heightened the destiel fanfic which has left the fandom in an uproar and has ruined cas in alot of peoples eyes. ihaven’t seen many people who are estatic that cas and dean are in purgatory together. some think its ok but they would rather see dean alone. which the majority wants.lets just see what carver does. as for sam-i hope they don’t take his character and make him a slave to crowley. i told the pthb on thier feedback page-that i want BOTH SAM and DEAN to get thier balls back. lets hope they do just that.

    Comment by animal — May 30, 2012 @ 6:45 am

  444. I am one of the “not many people” who is exicted to see cas and dean in purgatory together. I’m hoping that purgatory snaps cas back to his right frame of mind but more so I’m exicted about seeing purgatory and what carver will do with it.

    people keep talking about how the ratings have dropped well that happens to every show…people lose interest you can’t have mac and cheese every day even if it is your favorite dish, you get bored.

    and sera’s job with the last season simply quickened that process. no coherent plot. season seven imo was the worst season ever. hopefully carver can bring the show back to greatness.

    Comment by super time — May 30, 2012 @ 8:27 am

  445. I actually really enjoyed the finale. Season 7 has not been my favorite by an means….BUT it has had some good episodes. The very first 2 when Sam was dealing with Lucifer were my favs…….

    But I do understand why Cas is deflecting and acting stupid. He has dug a huge pit for himself and he doesnt want to climb out and face what he did to the world, to heaven and to Sam and Dean. One of my fav quotes was when he kinda got emotional and said, “I destroyed it before and I will do it again.” You saw a glimpse of the old Cas there and then he flipped a switch and wanted to play twister because facing reality was too difficult for him. Now I cant wait to see what Carver does to cas in season 8.

    The whole Bobby deciding to end his ghost life was genius! I loved the faces of the brother’s as they watched their father figure burn…..and Cas sitting on the steps and watching makes me wonder about Bobby’s future (hmmmmmmmmmmmm….does the fallen angel want to help the bro’s by bringing back Bobby or ???)

    And yes, killing Dick was very fast and kinda simple but the endding was amazing. Having Dean wind up in purgatory and Sam still back on earth and talking to Crowley and realizing Crowley is the #1 bad guy now was awesome. Now Im scared for Dean but we shall see what season 8 holds and I hope carver can wow us all once again.

    Comment by Amy — May 30, 2012 @ 8:56 am

  446. Hi. I lurk here for the comments on occasion. I am new to online communities. I started lurking after season 6 to try to understand the show better and started commenting on Paula’s site this season. It is also my favorite site since her approach to reviewing is analytical. I think there is a good group of commenters as well. I found the commentary pretty even toned. As Sheri said no attacks. People disagree but they agree to disagree. That’s fine. Different opinions are more interesting.
    Paula’s writing style can be sarcastic. She is funny as hell. She is a writer herself so her opinions come from a keen understanding of plot and character development. I have seen her defend Sam and jp’s acting. In fact I brought IP the discussion of her site here over at innsmouth. There was a little discussion. Her response: “Folks, let’s chill a bit on the ragging If you’re going to insult them, go over there and do it to their faces. Don’t sling monkey poo from a safe distance. After a that’s what you’re accusing them of doing right?”

    Very fair minded. I took her advice. Honestly I was surprised to hear we were evil and bad. I do think jp was not quite up to oar in some episodes acting-wise. Sorry. It is my opinion. His bitch faces do nothing for me. As for the character he plays, yeah I find Sam problematic. I think that his heroic arc was damaged by the writing, his characterization is weak and I find him difficult to like at this point. A lot of people at innsmouth say things like this. We also say we wish he were written better. We wish there were character growth. Having something always wrong with him damages the character.
    Characters besides Dean are discussed. Bobby and cas have been discussed a lot. So was Garth. I confess to being in the minority because I like him. Certainly he is no Winchester, but he is brave and has lots of daring do. We have people that passionately love Bobby as much as others who passionately hate him at this point. I am not a Bobby fan now but commiserated with another poster because she hurts. Different viewpoints are not a problem. Same thing with cas… Meg… Crowley … Everyone thinks I am nuts (not that anyone had said anything to that effect) because I don’t think Crowley is a demon. No one belittled me for saying something that was out there.

    Personally I think someone who could provide a different perspective on Sam would be welcomed. As long as they could accept and understand that other people may not share their opinion.
    I look at this site and wfb because I am interested in gaining insight and perspective.

    Dean. Yeah most everyone thinks Dean is a wonderful character. It seemed he would get a story this year … then of course nothing. There has been a lot of disappointment regarding his lack of story thus far. We don’t want him to be the only one with a story. The separation of the brothers seems promising. We will see Sam alone and finally get his perspective (hopefully). We hope he will grow as a character and show strength.
    Dean will surely have a story in purgatory and should emerge more badass than ever. Cas too should grow. His arc is so interested because he has grown from dutiful soldier blindly following orders, to fumbling on the free will front, to crazy, to? I think we can all agree that season 8 will be fantastic.

    Comment by castiel'scat — May 30, 2012 @ 9:12 am

  447. #436 (Sara2: Good Post supporting your view. Me? Couldn’t watch this show without both Brothers. But I have had issues with the way Sam has been written over the years and the stupid comments he has made about and to his brother and the stupid things he has done. In Fanfiction Sam is written so much better and does not say stupid things to his brother (except in humor) and does not do stupid things to his brother. The show, however, does not reflect the greatest image of the character alot of the time. If the character could grab the pen from the inane writers and write his own lines and his own actions he would be presented in a much better light. Sadly, that cannot happen. The actor keeps the character salvagable for me and allows me to keep loving him. If someone else was portraying the character most of the time I wouldn’t care for him. Thank goodness for Jared. But the show would not work without both brothers and no other character can replace either brother. I like Cas- alot- but for me he is a secondary character and should stay that way. I was not pleased when I heard an interview recently and Jared said he would like to see the brothers split up more. We had that crap in season 6 and before and it ruined the show. I don’t want to see Dean paired up with Cas. I want the Winchester brothers to work together and bring the show back to where it started. If next season is going to be focused on Dean in one place and Sam in another I do not have much hope for it. That plot method does not work on this show and I, as a fan of both brothers, feel certain it will fail.

    Comment by SL — May 30, 2012 @ 9:52 am

  448. So, I see people are talking about my Dean “bashing” comment namely Sarah2, who must be obsessed with my posts. I just said that since S5, I haven’t cared for Dean’c characterization because I have found him almost intolerable. For some reason, the way that the writers have portrayed Dean since S5, I haven’t liked it at all. And in S7, he just annoyed me more times then ever. He seemed very emotionally distant from Sam, a quality that doesn’t suit Dean’s character at all, while Sam, on the other hand, seemed to want to emotionally connect with Dean throughout last season. But still, there was something extremely cold and distant about Dean all last season and it really bugged me big time. I hope the writers seriously do something about his characterization, because this is not the Dean that I loved from S1 to S4. Something changed in Dean’s character and I don’t know exactly what it is, but I’m chalking it up to bad writing on behalf of the writers.

    Comment by Jessica — May 30, 2012 @ 4:27 pm

  449. And also, I’m so sick of people and their constant Dean worshipping. “Oh Dean never does anything wrong”, “He’s a complete and total saint”, “Nobody should criticize Dean in any way, because he’s the better brother”. I’m so sick of it. Dean should be criticized just as much as any other character on this show. If anything, another thing that has made me start to not like Dean are his fans who constantly excuse everything that Dean does and make it seem as though Dean is some perfect saint. Everyone seems to defend St. Dean, while Sam is constantly seen as the monster that needs to be stopped. I’m beyond tired of it and I’m finally speaking out since before, I felt that I couldn’t. And I’m not going to take back my opinions either.

    Comment by Jessica — May 30, 2012 @ 4:39 pm

  450. @Sarah: I apologize if I came off a bit strong to you in my last post. I guess I had just read Jessica’s post and then Sarah2’s post so I had a pretty fresh perspective. I was already annoyed with the I can’t stand Dean, bla, bla, bla…and then Sarah2 comes up and does the exact same thing with Sam. That also irritated me but I have a feeling Sarah2 was just trying to make a point to Jessica and didn’t mean she hated Sam. I think (I could be wrong) she was trying to show how Jessica’s post may have come across to others who do love Dean. I do like Cas, but not to the detriment of Sam and Dean. I enjoy Cas as a secondary character and am hoping someone or something has taken him out of Purgatory. Dearly hoping that Sam is the one that saves Dean (for a change). I just don’t like seeing either of the boys being bashed, and like you, there are times that I haven’t read all the posts and have defended Dean and didn’t see the Sam bashing, where I was called on the carpet for not defending Sam, too.

    I don’t like the term “Destiel” because it is not part of SPN canon, I guess some people use it as Cas and Dean friendship but when I see it, it just raises my hackles. At least I’m hoping people are using it to portray friendship and not romantic pairing (which there aren’t really any pairings on SPN except maybe Mag? :)). If they are using it as the Destiel pairing, then it is bashing and homophobic rhetoric, which does not belong here.

    As stated earlier, I’m looking forward to season 8, and here is to Sam getting Dean out of Purgatory on his own!

    Comment by twinster — May 30, 2012 @ 4:48 pm

  451. @Jessica, as long as you do the Dean bashing, people are going to respond with Sam bashing, and the bashing goes around and around. There is no more Sam bashing here than Dean bashing. You don’t do constructive criticism, you bash. The bashing does not belong on the board (either Dean or Sam bashing). It is ok to say you might not like what one of the characters is doing in a particular arc or storyline. People here have criticized Dean a plenty and as long as it is constructive and not hateful, I don’t say anything. I dislike the Sam bashing but only one other person has taken it to the level that you do and I have a feeling she was trying to make a point of how ridiculous it is. We all have our favorites (and that is perfectly fine). When you attack like you do, it will create a counter attack. Let the madness end.

    Comment by twinster — May 30, 2012 @ 5:30 pm

  452. Seems like some SPN fans are trying to get Misha Collins off Supernatural. @jumblejim tweeted about it on twitter and said that even Collins would be surprised that Jim was defending him? Iam guess that some Castiel haters are protesting the return of Collins in season 8 as Castiel.?

    Comment by ozzie — May 30, 2012 @ 6:25 pm

  453. Castiel’scat – no one wants to read your pimping of Paula’s site. Well let me speak for myself. I’m not sure why you came to post about how wonderful and impartial Paula’s site is. I get it. You hate Sam and love Paula’s site where you can commiserate with fellow Sam haters. That’s cool. I highly doubt anyone who likes Sam would go there to offer a different opinion though. I certainly wouldn’t waste my time doing so. The posters there have mind up their minds w/r/tSam. Sam is an awful person, and Jared is a crap actor. Thanks for sharing.

    And, no, we can’t all agree that Season 8 will be great.

    Twinster, Jessica didn’t bash Dean. She just said she hadn’t really liked him since Season 5. What’s wrong with that? It’s her opinion. I’m sure there are plenty who have disliked Sam since Season 1 like Sarah2. I’m pretty sure she’s being dead honest about her dislike of Sam.

    I’ll, personally, never understand how some can hate/dislike either brother but it happens. None of the characters are universally loved or appreciated.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 30, 2012 @ 6:49 pm

  454. Thanks lisa1 for supporting my post- literally. No one at Paula’s site would attack another commenter or be so narrow minded. To each his own.

    Comment by castiel'scat — May 30, 2012 @ 8:10 pm

  455. ALOT of narrow minded people on this site.Its what it is.

    Comment by SL — May 30, 2012 @ 9:58 pm

  456. Sweet because some people commenting on this site are just as narrow minded, if not more. Let’s be honest. The fandom is divided between Sam worshippers, Dean worshippers and Castiel worshippers most of the time. It’s rare to find people who love them equally. That’s where all this hate is coming from. And Ozzie, the campaign will never achieve anything because fans can’t demand anything. This hate campaign was designed against the actor even more than against the character he’s playing. And it was deleted. Today is now the Misha Collins appreciation day with thousands of people already tweeting love. I’m in. Haters gonna hate.

    Comment by Carolina — May 31, 2012 @ 12:04 am

  457. I dont care if somebody dislikes Sam they will do it regardless of wether there is a reason or not but nobody is a fool some love that site good for them but lets not pretend Paula Stiles is any sort of Sam fan or even bio brother or alot who post there are that either .
    And narrow mindness is within everybody including Dean girls and Castiel fans .

    Comment by Sarah — May 31, 2012 @ 12:10 am

  458. Carolina
    I don’t hate the actor, I do hate the character. So speak for yourself rather than for others.

    Comment by Jo1027 — May 31, 2012 @ 4:23 am

  459. You’re welcome, Castiel’scat!

    I don’t care if you dislike Sam or anyone on the show. Your post just annoyed me. I don’t know why you’d come here to only speak up that site and encourage people to go there. Those who want to go there will do so. They don’t need encouragement from you or anyone else. The site speaks for itself. It’s not my cup of tea, which is why I’m not there.

    Thank you, Sarah! You nailed my beef with Castiel’scat first post. This idea that Paula likes Sam and Jared is a joke. When I was going to IMDb, I NEVER read a positive post about Sam or Jared from her. My one visit to her webpage verified that it was just a Sam hate site. Quit faking and embrace your hate! Own it! It’s perfectly okay to hate Sam. I don’t know why so many insist on saying she doesn’t or that those at that site actually like Sam. They don’t. That’s fine. Or that they like Jared. They don’t.

    Why would any Sam or bibro fan go there. “Look! It’s Jared’s bitchface again. It looks like be smelled a fart.” “How many scenes is Jared in so I can know how much to FF?” Oh yeah . . . they really love Sam/Jared!

    Let’s be real. I like Jared. I like Jensen. I love Sam. I love Dean. I have no desire to read nasty comments about Jared. I have no desire to take the most negative interpretation of every single action Sam makes. It’s why I left IMDb for a more balanced site. It’s why I don’t visit Paula’s site or read her comments.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 31, 2012 @ 4:41 am

  460. Thanks for the heads up Lisa1. Even though I consider my self a Deangirl, I do love Sam, too. I don’t want to visit a site that bashes Sam. I really couldn’t tell the one time I visited because I only found Paula’s review and not the comment thread. All I could gleam from it was that she was all the round sarcastic about everything and everybody. Was kinda a strange review. I don’t enjoy reading nasty comments about Dean, Sam, or even Cas (or especially about the actors themselves!). The main reason I watch SPN is for the brothers. That is what got me hooked on the show.

    Comment by twinster — May 31, 2012 @ 5:49 am

  461. I too was somewhat taken aback by Jared’s statement of wanting separation of the brothers, and he was very clear on his desire. Having thought about it however, it simply seems characteristic of Jared. Unlike Jensen who grew up in a theater family, Jared got into this business by winning an amateur contest and holding a surfboard on the teen choice awards. He has had to learn his craft by doing. He got a big break and has parleyed that into a career. (His luck rather than years of training is something many snobbish reviewers, most of whom are frustrated actors jealous of Jared’s breaks, will never forgive.) Nonetheless, IMO by hard work and a willingness to take on acting challenges, he has turned himself into a fine actor. The difference between season 1 Jared and Jared today is amazingly positive.
    His comment seemed to be to me was that he is so comfortable playing off Jensen that he needs to move on to challenge himself in less comfortable and more challenging acting circumstances. He did not say abandon Jared-Jensen interaction, but get more time with others. That seems to me to simply reflect a guy who has used SPN consistently to improve his craft, a really grounded guy who doesn’t want to get too comfortable and stop learning. I personally admire his desire not to take the easy and comfortable road, but to keep taking chances and learning.
    I’d hate to see less Sam, and I’d be disgusted and stop watching if this becomes a Dean and his angel slash-fest with lots of precious rain coat-exchanging embarrassing scenes, and Sam with an occasional, say one-fourth time, side story. I hope the producers don’t use Jared’s wish, and his new father responsibilities, to make it a Dean-Castiel show. And, I hope Jared’s statement is not simply a public justification of less time for him because he has been told that Carver has decided to downgrade Sam’s role to make room for more Castiel.
    So, I guess I’m a bit uncomfortable about a season 8 and whether it is going to be about the Winchester brothers. Whatever happens, I do admire Jared’s willingness to take on new challenges even if it means less Jensen-Jared interaction which I enjoy. Watching he and Jensen play off each other is the primary, but not exclusively, the reason I watch. If that becomes a minor part of the series however, it will not be SPN to me. A Dean-Castiel series holds no interest whatsoever for me; it diminishes Jensen role to playing off Collins’ IMO silly on-line act for sexually immature teens and eliminates any real significance for Sam or, most importantly: the brothers’ story . If that happens, I’ll join many who’ve moved on to follow Jensen and Jared in their post-SPN film or tv careers. I’ve watched it since the pilot, so I’ll certainly give season 8 a look, but a Dean-Castiel show and little Sam will not keep me watching for long.

    Comment by CaseyT — May 31, 2012 @ 6:21 am

  462. castiel’scat,

    Since you sort of used a quote from my post about my experience at the site, I just wanted to clarify my statement. I fully support anyone’s right to posting an opinion even a negative one about any of the actors or characters. If you don’t like JP’s acting, cool. I have negative opinions about stuff, too. We don’t all have to have the same opinion. (I don’t care for all out bashing in general but hey it’s the internet, folks are gonna wallow. It’s not for the fainthearted and easily offended)

    I choose not to visit that site because the people there mostly do not like Sam or Jared and I am a fan of both (and Dean and Cas, etc.) I don’t mind a “Yay, Dean” site but I won’t visit a site that constantly in the most snide, derisive way possible puts down a character and actor that I like. If you like that, fine. It’s an entirely free country. But for me, no thank you.

    There are ways to criticize constructively and ways to word something to come across as trying to be clever and superior by posting the most creatively-worded put downs possible. And if you are good at it and people find you funny, awesome. It’s not my cup of tea, but everyone gets to choose where they are comfortable hanging out, so good on you if that’s what you like. I certainly wouldn’t ask anyone to change it to suit me, I would just avoid it.

    But please don’t try to sell it as this open minded place. It’s heavily biased for Dean/Jensen and heavily biased against Sam/Jared. And that’s OK if that’s what they want it to be. I’ll just hang out somewhere else.

    Comment by jace — May 31, 2012 @ 6:42 am

  463. anyone else get the feeling that castiel’scat and those who start talking about that other site out of the blue only comes to this site to bash it and promote that other site (that i will not bother breathing breath into) only for the purpose of getting people over to that site and increase it’s traffic.

    those who like that other site fine go there, but those who don’t I highly suggest not even bothering to respond to the post on this site for you are only fueling the fire. sometimes the best thing to do is to ignore, ignore, ignore until it goes away.

    Comment by minute baby — May 31, 2012 @ 7:33 am

  464. @ Twinster #461 – No problem! That was just my opinion of the site, and I only went there once. As Jace pointed out in #463, the site is heavily biased against Sam/Jared. I love both brothers equally and like both actors. It just wasn’t the place for me, and I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone who actually liked Sam/Jared. You’d probably just get frustrated. I don’t go to TWOP for the same reason.

    @Jace #463 – Great post! I couldn’t agree more w/you.

    @CaseyT #462 – You stated my worst fear: “I’d hate to see less Sam, and I’d be disgusted and stop watching if this becomes a Dean and his angel slash-fest with lots of precious rain coat-exchanging embarrassing scenes, and Sam with an occasional, say one-fourth time, side story. I hope the producers don’t use Jared’s wish, and his new father responsibilities, to make it a Dean-Castiel show. And, I hope Jared’s statement is not simply a public justification of less time for him because he has been told that Carver has decided to downgrade Sam’s role to make room for more Castiel.”

    I like Castiel, but I would definitely stop watching if Sam was basically replaced w/him. I don’t trust this show at all. I wouldn’t put it past them to not show Sam at all during this “separation.” As someone pointed out, Sam is the only lead to have been cut out of entire episodes or to have been so sidelined and pushed to the back that I thought he was mute! I think it was during the MOA episode last year that I swear Jared got one line of dialogue! He spoke to no one, not Dean, not Bobby, not Castiel. That happens way too often w/Sam!

    And all these excuses of Sam being an introvert or private are just that: excuses. Sam had ZERO problem expressing his feelings in Seasons 1-3 and even parts of Season 4. He can express himself. The writers simply refuse to write for him, and I don’t know why!

    I think Jared likes the idea of exploring his character some more, and he may think a separation will be the only way that happens. Like you though, I can only hope JC doesn’t use it as an excuse to just cut Sam out of the show completely. There was a time I could not see that happening, but I think it is a definite possibility.

    Now, if they are separated for the entire year or until the mid-season break, I will be fine as long as the story’s good AND both brothers are equally represented (i.e., A Dean/Cas episode one week, a Sam episode the next, some split episodes, etc). My preference is for them together, but if the story is good, I’m okay w/a separation. As long as it’s not the Dean/Castiel show for 10 straight episodes, one weak Sam episode, and then the brothers are reunited. I’m not interested in that!

    The problem for me is I have lost all faith in the writers, even JC, to tell a decent story for Sam so I’m not sure what’s going to happen next season. It could be great or a disaster! I don’t worry as much about Dean. For what I enjoy in the show, I know he’ll have a role. I know I’ll see him. I know I’ll get some insight into his feelings, etc. But Sam? Who knows?

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 31, 2012 @ 7:39 am

  465. @ Minute baby – you’re right! I shouldn’t have even responded, but that post just irritated me so much. After reading it all I could think was, “If you love that site so much, go there. No one here is interested.” LOL!

    Ignoring is the BEST policy!

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 31, 2012 @ 7:45 am

  466. does anyone know if carver will still be working on Being Human while running the show for SPN?

    I hope not, i think SPN should get his undivided attention.

    Comment by N-D's — May 31, 2012 @ 8:15 am

  467. I hate to be the one to say this, but maybe sam has been getting the back seat because padalecki is the lesser actor. I don’t have a favorite: sam, dean, cas, i like them all equally. But jensen’s acting is award worthy were as sam’s on the other hand….not so much. his best acting was during season 6 when he had no soul. with that said sam is a staple and should be a part of the show and present in every episode until the very end of the show. Even if it is for less than a minute like they did in 4.3 “in the Beginning” where he literally had just one line.

    Comment by super time — May 31, 2012 @ 8:30 am

  468. oh crap I hope he doesn’t read this site. how does one edit on this site?

    Comment by super time — May 31, 2012 @ 8:32 am

  469. Sigh. I wrote in response to a thread started by someone here attacking another site and its posters. I responded by giving my opinion having been reading the posts and comments over there, all of them, since December. Believe me, she defends Sam; she hates how the character has been written. Absolutely her style is not for everyone. However, I have found that I can say anything without fear of someone attacking me. Discussion on a topic is not disrupted because of complaints that someone bashed so and so. No one does IMO. I think for the most part it is an older, educated crowd that behaves professionally and is perhaps academic in their criticism of the show. Many people visit several sites, even sam friendly ones like wfb, because they are interested in a different perspective. That is why I visited here and accidently saw your innsmouth/paula bashing as well as your treatment of another new poster who was excited to talk about the show. You shut them up pretty quickly. Whatever. It’s a TV show, a great one, and the characters are not real!

    Comment by castiel'scat — May 31, 2012 @ 8:39 am

  470. just read one of Misha’s tweets apparently, people are trying to get him fired from the show. what a shame. he states that he has seniority at the gas station where he is working at now. is that code? does that mean he’s already contracted for season 8?

    Comment by N-D's — May 31, 2012 @ 8:39 am

  471. 469

    Agree to disagree? I don’t begrudge you your entertainment or your opinion. That site left an immediate bad taste in my mouth and I gave my opinion when the discussion came up. I don’t think the people there are evil incarnate but I don’t think it is a poor little misunderstood site either.

    I am all for academic, intellectual, and professional but not if it includes cutting and sarcastic and rude against a particular character and actor. Not by all surely but by enough.

    Reminds me of a quote I had in my classroom: When I was young, I used to admire intelligent people; as I grow older, I admire kind people.

    Comment by jace — May 31, 2012 @ 9:03 am

  472. #470

    “just read one of Misha’s tweets apparently, people are trying to get him fired from the show.”

    Really? I’d say that’s a waste of time. I just read an article and Bob Singer said that Cas will be in several episodes. He didn’t say how many. I don’t know if Misha is still considered reoccurring or is now a regular.

    Comment by jace — May 31, 2012 @ 9:13 am

  473. Grateful to have just read an interview with Robert Singer. He says that the brothers will be reuinited quickly in the new season but on the show itself much time will have gone by. I don’t care as long as both boys aren’t seperated for any long period of time. That would kill the show.

    Comment by SL — May 31, 2012 @ 9:59 am

  474. Great post, Jace!

    @ Super Time, how you feel is how you feel. No point in regretting it now.

    Oh, and, I highly doubt Jared goes online. I’ve read that people have been downright rude to him at conventions where he can see their faces, so I’m sure he doesn’t go online where anonymity allows even more hateful, cruel comments. And I’m NOT saying your comments were hateful or cruel.

    I like Jared and think he’s just as good an actor as Jensen, but that’s my opinion. You feel differently.

    @ SL – so the boys are reuniting quickly, huh? Probably in the first episode if there’s a time jump. Eh . . . I still can’t drum up much excitement for the new season. I guess this one disappointed me too much. I will be watching though. This is still my favorite show though OUAT and TWD are sneaking up there. LOL!

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 31, 2012 @ 10:29 am

  475. SL–good news. Where did you read that.

    Comment by CaseyT — May 31, 2012 @ 11:07 am

  476. Sure jace. Sorry you were upset by what you read. I believe in kindness as well. This season (7) has been frustrating and I think some people maybe overacted and/or exaggerated when expressing their frustrations at times. I am sure I did once or thrice. Humor too can be difficult online since it can seem hurtful when meant to be funny. Different strokes for different folks.

    Comment by castiel'scat — May 31, 2012 @ 12:54 pm

  477. Nobody gives a rat’s ass about this show anyone. Not the J’s: they’re too interested in time off. Not the writers: They’re just interested in the pay check. Not the CW: they’re just interested in revenue. And certainly not Carver: he’s too interested in Castiel to care about Kripke’s vision of Supernatural.

    It’s clear to me now that he was the WORST possible choice to replace Sera. Get Kripke back, because these lot don’t have a clue, and don’t give a ****.

    Comment by Johno — May 31, 2012 @ 2:05 pm

  478. @278 -how do you know carver is too interested in castiel to care about kripkes vision of supernatural???

    Comment by animal — May 31, 2012 @ 2:34 pm

  479. @467
    I don’t believe that Jared Padalecki is the ‘lesser actor’ and given that the powers that be on Supernatural have given him such challenging storylines that demanded nuanced performances and continue to do so, I certainly don’t believe ‘they’ think he is the lesser actor either (and I have great trust in their judgment). It takes a lot of talent to make a character whose POV and motivations are so hidden and some of his actions so heinous, likeable and relatable. I’ve tremendous respect for Padalecki for being able to do that.

    He has his strengths and weaknesses, no doubt, but so does Jensen Ackles.

    Comment by Etain — May 31, 2012 @ 2:38 pm

  480. @480-being i am a huge jensen ackles fan-i beg to differ that jensen has any weaknesses other than he makes other people weak in the knees. just sayin!! lol. but you have to agree that jensen is the stronger actor. but jared has gotten so much better acting thru the years. his puppy eyes are the best. and he did a wonderful job with the souless sam (even though jensen didn’t like that he had to play off a souless sam lol).

    so there is a movement to get misha off the show??? i would love it if they did but not because of misha (although i don’t like him-he is too snarky for me)but because of cas. I HATE that character. it has caused a big riff in the spn fandom. if you think about it-most objections about cas is because he has hurt dean and sam’s characters. i would sign that petition if i knew where to sign it.because he has.

    Comment by animal — May 31, 2012 @ 3:34 pm

  481. I think part of my problem with Castiel is that he has caused such divisiveness amongst the Supernatural fandom. The character attracts polar opposites, extreme lovers and extreme haters, people who really love him or people that really hate him. Personally, I don’t hate Castiel, however, his character has done nothing for me. I liked Castiel in season 4, however, after season 5, he became more of a nuisance to me and he just caused the SPN fandom to become extremely divided overall.

    Comment by Katie — May 31, 2012 @ 3:52 pm

  482. CaseyT: There is a small article in the new tv guide magazine which talks about season 8 and in it Robert Singer makes a comment about the boys. Also brief mention on SN online.

    Comment by SL — May 31, 2012 @ 4:11 pm

  483. What is up w/people trying to convince others to adopt their way of thinking?

    No, Animal, Etain doesn’t HAVE to agree that Jensen is the “stronger” actor. Etain just stated that he/she feels both actors have strenghts and weaknesses. If you think Jensen is the stronger actor, that’s fine, but not everyone agrees.

    Acting is subjective. We all like what we like.

    I don’t think Jensen is a better or stronger actor than Jared. I think they have equal acting abilities. I honestly like them both equally. And when people say Jared has improved, all I can say is I never had a problem w/his acting so I can’t really comment on that. I just rewatched Season 1 and noticed nothing “off” w/Jared’s acting. He was just as capable and engaging in Season 1 as he’s always been to me.

    But that’s just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 31, 2012 @ 5:29 pm

  484. I really don’t think there is any rift in the fandom because of Castiel. He’s is overwhelmingly adored. It’s just a small minority that like to complain loudly and often in the hopes they will drown out the majority.

    I’m disappointed as most everyone is that the brothers will be reunited quickly. It seemed like such a positive move to have them apart for a time. I’m so tired of them being stuck together. The show really needs to move past this into more of an ensemble show. I’m thrilled Cas is back but it’s such a shame so many great characters have been killed off.

    As for Jared’s acting, as much as I like Sam, I have to admit he is far and away the weakest actor on the show. Jensen, Misha, Jim Beaver and Mark Shepard hopelessly outclass him.

    Comment by Anisa — May 31, 2012 @ 5:35 pm

  485. Splitting the brothers up- IN MY OPINION- is the worst thing the show can do in the next season. Having the boys apart has failed each time it has been done. I am far from “disappointed” that the boys are going to be reunited quickly next season. I am OVERJOYED. This show flounders so badly when the two are apart or at odds with each other.
    After a season that focused WAY TOO MUCH on supporting characters and gueststars, the last thing this show needs is an “ensemble” cast. A few strong supporting characters that appear occasionally throughout the season (Bobby, Ellen, Rufus, Castiel) are fine. Having a supporting character or a guest star take center stage for even an episode has been done way too much and is overdone.
    This is the Winchesters show. After a horrible season where they were more like guest stars on their own show the only real supporting character I want them to be with every single episode is the Impala.
    Dean and Sam are the central characters and I hope we finally get a showrunner who understands that.

    Comment by SL — May 31, 2012 @ 6:21 pm

  486. Personally I never pay attention to all the talk of who is the “better actor”. It’s just fans trying to put their favorite on a pedestal and so those kinds of opinions really mean nothing to me. They are just too biased to take seriously if you ask me. I’m not in favor of making anything between the Js a competition. Why must one always have to be better than the other? Can we not just accept that they’re both great actors with different strengths and weaknesses? They compliment each other perfectly.

    Now Misha, I don’t really see how people can comment much on it since I don’t think robotic expressions and a monotone voice show off much acting skills. Nor does acting like a 6 year old. Don’t really think I’ve seen him act.

    Comment by Sara — May 31, 2012 @ 6:25 pm

  487. @SL – I couldn’t agree more w/you. I was disappointed when I read the boys were being separated this year, but was willing to go w/it as long as each brother was equally represented. My preference though was always to have the boys together, so I’m happy to hear the separation won’t be long. To me, the show works best when the brothers are together. They were never more separated while also being together than this past year.

    @Sara – I hear you. I was starting a reply but then just deleted it. As you said, I’m not interested in comparing the Js acting abilities. For me, they are both entertaining and engaging actors and have been so since the show started! That’s just my opinion though!

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 31, 2012 @ 6:48 pm

  488. “hopelessly outclass?” OK.

    I think Jared has done some great work on the show and his chemistry with Jensen especially in the early seasons is a joy to watch. His portrayal of soulless Sam was widely praised even in the media and I think he has grown as an actor as the series has progressed. As terrific and pretty as Jensen is, I find myself nearly always watching Jared because I think he is interesting to watch–and kind of pretty too. Different strokes and all that.

    Interestingly enough, if I had to pick the best actors that have ever been on the show, it wouldn’t be either Jensen or Jared. But it’s not a competition. Everyone brings something different to the show.

    Sara and SL, I agree with your posts.

    BTW, if you haven’t watched the video about what’s the most embarrassing thing on Jared’s ipod, you should. Both guys are on it and it’s very cute.

    Comment by beth w — May 31, 2012 @ 7:07 pm

  489. oh, the link is on WinchesterBros website.

    Comment by beth w — May 31, 2012 @ 7:09 pm

  490. @Anisa: Are you a regular at TWOP or Paula Stiles site? Oh and BTW, if you think Misha is a better actor then Jared, you’re strongly fooling yourself honey. Therefore, I know not take anything you have to say seriously, because it’s all biased nonsense.

    Comment by Katie — May 31, 2012 @ 7:57 pm

  491. Oh and @Anisa, please go do your pimping of Castiel somewhere else, preferably on TWOP, where the extremist Destiel fans hang out. I think it’s more your environment. Honestly.

    Comment by Katie — May 31, 2012 @ 7:59 pm

  492. Everybody is entitled to his/her opinion even if we don’t agree with them. If you want to defend Jared, tell us what you like about him.

    Comment by jace — May 31, 2012 @ 8:36 pm

  493. Katie, Anisa has a right to her own opinion. She just stated what she likes and believes. To tell her to go to another site is kinda harsh and bordering on personal attacks. I don’t agree with what she said per say, but that is ok as long as she isn’t bashing or being hateful.

    Comment by twinster — May 31, 2012 @ 8:43 pm

  494. @480
    No animal, I don’t ‘have’ to agree with you in that Jensen Ackles is the ‘better’ actor. I don’t agree with you, to be honest. What constitutes ‘better’ is entirely subjective, both for you and for me. I do believe that Ackles is a very good actor but for me, Padalecki is equally so. There are some areas in which I feel he surpasses Ackles and vice versa.

    I’ve no intention of going into what ‘I’ feel are the strengths and weaknesses of each actor because (a) it will lead to another JA v JP war, which will benefit no-one and (b) professionally, I am hardly qualified to make comment on it. I can only comment on what works for me and what doesn’t work for me so my opinion is just that, my personal opinion and I am well capable of forming it animal, so kindly don’t speak for me.

    Now if it’s okay with you, I’m just going to sit back and appreciate the excellent actors that ‘I’ see on Supernatural, all of them.

    Comment by Etain — May 31, 2012 @ 11:10 pm

  495. I also think that Jared´s acting is equal to Jensen´s. Of course, there are situations in which one of them acts better and in others worse. For example, Jared has become a specialist in playing mental breakdowns, which are difficult scenes to act in. On the other hand, Jensen has got this “my heart is broken and I´ve lost all faith in everything”-look, which is uncomparable.

    By the way, does anyone know when season 7 is out on DVD in the UK? Grateful for every response.

    Comment by Mary — June 1, 2012 @ 12:57 am

  496. wow this website really needs a delete post or edit option. This fire storm could have prevented. And here I was worried that padalecki was going to be offended if he was a visitor of this site. I should have been more concerend about the fans. it was a simple thoughtless OPINION…nothing more. the point of the post was that SPN is a show about the Winchesters and that they both should always be a part of the show. beit together or apart.

    As for them being reuinted quickly…I must say I am dissapointed. not so much because I want them apart but rather because I am or was excited about purgatory and new beasts. I highly doubt they will be reunited there.

    Comment by super time — June 1, 2012 @ 7:59 am

  497. First of all Jared’s acting is amazing and he proved it on season 4 and i don’t get it ,some of u decided to talk about his acting being bad just now? After 7 years?
    And second thing i’ve read that there’ll be more brotherly moments on season 8 and there will be one after Dean’s back from purgatory and that Cas will appear in only a few episodes (i don’t hate Cas but i prefer more of the Winchesters) so i think season 8 will be AWESOME and seems like Carver will do a good job,I’m excited!!

    Comment by SamJaredfan — June 1, 2012 @ 1:01 pm

  498. wow-at etain and lisa1 you guys need to relax-i was trying to be lighthearted and sarcastic. guess it didn’t come across that way. but wow! you two sure became defensive when you thought i meant that jensen was a way better actor than jared. but oh well. i reread what i posted. i guess you could think i was serious.

    thats whats wrong with this fandom. you guys get too defensive when you disagree with someone. wow!!! there are a ton of views on a ton of opinions on this sight. you guys need to grow up a little and voice your opinions without getting snarkyand disagree with someone without getting snarky. well i am about done with spn for now anyway. falling skies is my other favorite show and that starts in a couple of weeks. that will make the summer go faster. peace!!!

    Comment by animal — June 1, 2012 @ 1:26 pm

  499. On the acting, Jared is clearly the more versatile actor now. I don’t even see how its debatable. Jared really shines when goes bad. we need more of that. Jensen alot uses the same manneruisms and same facial expressions for different things.

    Comment by katie — June 1, 2012 @ 2:12 pm

  500. Jensen shines when given nothing regarding a storyline-as has been readily apparent in the last two and half seasons of this show. Jared has had plumb storylines for the entire run of this series, while the only time things were truly “equal” was in S4 when both actors had myth-arc roles/arcs AND emo roles/arcs-and yet all we ever hear about that season from Samfans was how Jared was “wallpaper” in it.
    If Jared is such a great actor then let him prove it by working with actors other than Jensen. He seems up for the challenge, but his “fans” don’t seem to be, IMO.
    And I was being completely honest in my post. I don’t like Sam and never really have. I used to be able to tolerate him back when I thought the writing would be able to improve the character, but after S5, I realized that that simply wasn’t going to happen, so I moved on from watching for the brother interactions. I also honestly think Jared is the weak link as far as acting goes on the show, but I totally get that he’s not going anywhere. And I further think that the Sam character suffers more from the same poor writing that all the characters get than the others, mainly because of this. I think Misha Collins is a better actor than Jared, and I think that Jensen Ackles is gifted as an actor in a way that few others are. I hope with all that’s in me that Carver will not waste that as assiduously as Gamble and Kripke(and as to the why of that, I simply cannot fathom it) have since S5. I know that many others here will not agree with this opinion(mainly because this is a well-known Sam-centric albeit supposedly bi-bro site-and those who have been posting on-line for some years, know this, even while we remember when it WAS truly bi-bro) but that doesn’t concern me, as I only check in here once a week or so and rarely find any truly rational discussion/thoughts, when I do check in. But hope still springs eternal for this in me via a return to better and more discussion of strictly the show, the characters and the writing of their characterizations, and the story and the writing of the storylines-and that’s really all-because at this site, the actors and opinions on their levels of acting skills, talent, abilities, and prowess simply cannot be discussed rationally. And that’s actually pretty common, at most sites, in this fandom, IMO. The Innsmouth Freepress being the rare exception to the rule in that area-again IMO.

    Comment by Sarah2 — June 1, 2012 @ 4:00 pm

  501. “On the acting, Jared is clearly the more versatile actor now. I don’t even see how its debatable. ”

    Uh, seriously? Did IQs drop sharply while I was away? OTOH, that’s one of the funniest things I ever read and I needed a laugh, so ta very much!

    Comment by Lori — June 1, 2012 @ 4:16 pm

  502. @500 Sarah2 – What are you talking about? What do you mean when you say you can’t discuss the acting skills, talent, abilities “rationally?”

    If you think Jared is a crap actor, you think he’s a crap actor. What is there to discuss at that point? You can list example after example of his horrible acting, and it will not change anyone’s opinion.

    I disagree w/you. I think Jared is just as talented and versatile as the other actors. The “acting skills” of the actors – all of them – has NEVER been an issue for me. I’m not sure why you would classify my dissenting opinion to yours as irrational. Acting is subjective, and there’ll never be complete agreement on it.

    Honestly, it’s a wasted discussion unless you’re among like-minded people like those at TWOP, IMDb, or Innsmouth Freepress. There’s not much more to say.

    I couldn’t care less if someone dislikes Jared’s acting or if you think he couldn’t act his way out of a paper bag. You have your opinion. I have mine. End of discussion.

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 1, 2012 @ 4:19 pm

  503. I don’t know. Save a couple of exceptions, I think the discussion around here has been pretty rational. Unless your definition of irrational is anything that doesn’t coincides with your preferred ranking of actors–which you are very entitled to btw. To me it seems perfectly rational to rank the actors differently if that is someone’s opinion. Why would someone be a fan of an actor if they think his acting sucked? But thanks for the blanket condemnation and condescension.

    Forgive me, but you don’t seem all that bi-bro yourself and that site you mentioned is definitely not so why it is bad for others not to be? And why is it Sam fans who are always the ones “not bi-bro enough” when there are plenty of Dean fans who aren’t. So what? My liking Sam better doesn’t take away one ounce of your adoration of Dean so what’s the harm?

    You know this is a comment section of a on-line article, right? It’s nobody’s intention or design to make it favor one character or the other. Anyone who shows up can post an opinion; no one’s checking ID’s. I am always confused why people think there has to be an equal number of fans of each guy. Why is that even a standard to achieve? I honestly think it fluctuates around here. But if one or the other group doesn’t choose to show up and post, who can do anything about that?

    Comment by beth w — June 1, 2012 @ 4:33 pm

  504. Is anyone else as truly sick of the term “bi-bro” as I am?

    Comment by beth w — June 1, 2012 @ 4:35 pm

  505. I’ve been watching this show from Day One and I’ve never claimed to be bi-bro. Never.
    Many posters on this site claim to love both brothers and both actors, but IMO, until recently many of the posts refuted that claim. That being said, I’ve been very happy to see the return of some Deanfans to this site to give it some genuine balance as I feel real and true bi-bro fans are a thing of the long ago past in this fandom. And for the record, this:

    “On the acting, Jared is clearly the more versatile actor now. I don’t even see how its debatable.”

    is an example of an irrational statement, IMO.

    Comment by Sarah2 — June 1, 2012 @ 4:58 pm

  506. That’s an example of an opinion. It’s no more irrational than anyone else’s opinion. You not agreeing with it doesn’t make it irrational, it makes it something that you don’t agree with.

    Comment by beth w — June 1, 2012 @ 5:06 pm

  507. “Is anyone else as truly sick of the term “bi-bro” as I am?”


    On the acting it was clear in the first few seasons, 1 especially, that Jensen was better. Jared would struggle trying to get a hold of the character, but by season 3 that was gone. Now, I agree he does always gets the better parts, he gets to have no soul and be a demon. He is so good at that. And there is a big difference when Sam is like that and when he is they overly nice, empathetic Sam at times. If you watch something like Sex and Violence, its very clear which one is more versatile and able to play dark and to play it straight. Jensen is only comfartable playing the same Dean with all the same manneurisms while Jared can play many variations of the character. I will stand by the fact I don’t see how its debatable. If somebody likes the Dean character better, ok. Thats not what I am talking about.

    Comment by katie — June 1, 2012 @ 5:30 pm

  508. Well, of course it’s debatable to say Jared is the most versatile actor as it is to say that Jensen is the better of the two. I think that’s what the last, like, 20 posts have been about. Everyone’s entitled their opinion, and no one’s is the set in stone truth.

    Comment by yeah — June 1, 2012 @ 5:38 pm

  509. Well, as a Dean fan first, of course I think JA acting is the better of the two actors, but that is just my opinion. His eyes are quite expressive. He is one of those rare actors that can say a lot with just his eyes. I do believe JP is an exceptional actor as well, but I just prefer Jensen’s style more (I think it really depends on what kind of style a viewer prefers). My sister prefers JA as well but then she is a Dean fan first as well, hmmmm…I’m seeing a pattern here! People have their favorites, and we really shouldn’t try to convince someone to change. I find it kinda sad that fans of the show hate Sam (or Dean) I don’t think we’d have a show without him. I really like JP (and Sam) and feel he helps to make JA shine. When people post they can’t tolerate either brother, it just starts a flame war. I don’t know if I’d consider myself a “bi-bro” or not because I clearly prefer Dean over Sam, but I still really like Sam. I dearly hope a flame war doesn’t start over this acting topic, or the “I don’t like Sam thing”.

    Comment by Twinster — June 1, 2012 @ 5:42 pm

  510. Just to clarify, you are correct-it IS *my* opinion that those are irrational statements; and they are the kind of statements that make this site more inhospitable than hospitable *to me* and possibly and probably others like me(Deanfans, that is)- and which is probably how the majority here like it-which is why I will probably continue to rarely post here-unless something really strikes a nerve in me, and I just can’t help myself-as a couple of things in the comment section of this article did. I applaud those Deanfans who do feel comfortable enough to post regularly here, though, and their attempts at keeping somewhat of a balance of opinions here.

    Comment by Sarah2 — June 1, 2012 @ 5:46 pm

  511. @Sarah2 – How is her statement irrational? It’s HER OPINION. Haha. Come on!

    She’s allowed to think Jared is a more versatile actor than Jensen just like you’re allowed to think Jared’s the worst actor you’ve ever seen. What’s the bloody difference?

    If her statement was irrational, then your statment: “Jared is the weak link as far as acting goes on the show” could also be seen as “irrational,” right? Or is it that only positive statements about Jared can be deemed as “irrational?”

    You both are entitled to feel however you wish about the acting skills/abilities of the the actors. Neither opinion is “irrational.” It’s just how you both feel.

    This is why discussing acting skills/abilities becomes an endless/pointless conversation. For instance, you hate Jared’s acting so you call him the “weak linK or the lesser actor, and that only causes others to offer a dissenting opinion. You’ll never agree w/them. They’ll never agree w/you. It’s pointless.

    I only remark when people make blanket statements like “everyone agrees that Jared’s not the strongest actor.” That’s just not true. And I guess I like to chime in and let that person know that I don’t agree w/the statement.

    In any event, like Jared or hate him, it really means nothing to me.

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 1, 2012 @ 5:49 pm

  512. twinster,

    good post. I like Sam best, but I do like Dean as well. The show wouldn’t be the same without either one. I have never bashed Dean or Jensen and I wouldn’t. For me, it’s not really about acting as I think they are both good actors, I just prefer Sam as a character. It certainly doesn’t bother me if someone prefer Dean though. More Sam for me.

    The impossible thing about debating acting skills is that it is completely subjective. There is no right or wrong. What endears you to an actor may irritate the crap out of me and the other way around too. And there is really no point in arguing it because how do you can’t change anyone’s mind. It’s like arguing about your favorite color. Because blue is so much better than green, you know.

    Comment by jace — June 1, 2012 @ 5:52 pm

  513. And Katie’s post is yet another reason I think discussion of acting leads to nothing positive.

    This statement: “On the acting it was clear in the first few seasons, 1 especially, that Jensen was better” is presented as FACT when it’s just an OPINION.

    Katie, you might be surprised to learn that I didn’t see Jensen as “clearly” the better actor than Jared in Season 1. Jared didn’t seem to be struggling to me. To me, both Jared and Jensen fell instantly in character. I loved the Pilot and every episode that aired after it. Yep, I loved Bugs and Route 666. I immediately believed Jared and Jensen were Sam and Dean. I have never had a problem w/Jared’s acting.

    Don’t get me wrong – if you don’t like Jared’s acting or didn’t like it at first, I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m just saying please clarify your statements to make it clear that you are just giving your opinion.

    I love both brothers equally. I honestly have no preference. I guess you could say I’m “bi-bro.” I like both actors. They both, IMO, do a great job in their roles and always have.

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 1, 2012 @ 5:59 pm

  514. Irrational doesn’t apply to opinions only to facts. “Jensen is the best actor on the show” is an opinion. To say that someone who holds a dissenting opinion is irrational, you would have to prove that Jensen is the best actor and you can’t because it is only an opinion and around it goes.

    To say that the grass is purple is irrational because it can be proven that grass is not purple (unless you spilled something purple on it.) You can’t prove opinions.

    Comment by beth w — June 1, 2012 @ 6:03 pm

  515. Jace, thanks! You liking Sam best means more Dean for me~lol! I agree, the show needs both brothers equally, and this JA vs. JP in the “who is the better actor” discussion is pointless because the fact is Dean fans will think Jensen is the better actor, where as, Sam fans will think Jared is the better actor. You really can’t change people’s opinions.

    Beth w, of course if you said the grass is blue then you may be right ( if you live in the Blue Grass state!). Lol

    Comment by Twinster — June 1, 2012 @ 6:34 pm

  516. “@Sarah2 – How is her statement irrational? It’s HER OPINION. Haha. Come on!

    “She’s allowed to think Jared is a more versatile actor than Jensen just like you’re allowed to think Jared’s the worst actor you’ve ever seen. What’s the bloody difference?

    If her statement was irrational, then your statment: “Jared is the weak link as far as acting goes on the show” could also be seen as “irrational,” right? Or is it that only positive statements about Jared can be deemed as “irrational?”’

    You left some very important words out of the quote that you attribute to me and that actually made it just my opinion-“I honestly think that Jared is the weak link…”

    Those words made it simply my opinion. Some here DO have a habit of stating their opinions as irrefutable and undeniable facts-but I was not guilty of that there.

    Irrational means unable and/or diffcult to be reasoned with; and the way one conveys their thoughts usually leaves more room for this, or less. That’s all I feel the need to say on the matter, I think.

    Comment by Sarah2 — June 1, 2012 @ 7:45 pm

  517. Katie is stating that her opinions are facts, she even comes out and uses the word “fact” in her post, and yet, others who have stated their opinions as opinions (saying “I think”, etc) are the ones getting criticized. But, of course since Katie is praising Jared And criticizing Jensen, of course most of you all would agree with her. This site is just as Sam-biased as you claim other sites are Dean-biased.

    Comment by Bree — June 1, 2012 @ 9:29 pm

  518. @513 – your post is a perfect example of what I was saying, you get upset that Katie said it was clear in the beginning that Jensen was the better actor, and you point out that that’s her opinion and not a fact, but then you don’t take offense when she comes out and says it’s a fact that Jared is the more versatile actor. Double standards.

    Comment by Bree — June 1, 2012 @ 9:40 pm

  519. Can we just agree that what someone posts is an opinion, whether or not it is labeled a fact? That would reduce a good deal of acrimony.
    And I did not mean to open Pandora’s Box with regard to another site. I denigrate it at all opportunities simply because I posted a pro-Sam comment on one occasion and was attacked like raw meat at the zoo in the comments (much, much more vitriol than I’ve ever seen at this site – it is only harmony and roses if you agree with the company line of loving Dean and hating Sam, anyhoo). But I accept that calling the reviewer “evil” is probably ill advised. I was being facetious, but hence forth I will replace it with the adjective “dreadful”. That is, I believe, a more personal and less universal characterization. I do not fear a libel action in attacking this web-site, because, although my law practice is not in this area, I remember that truth is a defense (if not now a part of the case-in-chief), and I would utilize discovery to access all reviews. If there are more than a handful of pro-Sam (more than “Sam is less awful than normal in this episode”) comments, I would lose gracefully. I’ve read most of them, because I like to challenge my 180/110 induced blood pressure medicine. I agree that humor is easily taken the wrong way on the net, but this critic goes beyond the line, in my opinion. She seems to have succumbed to the “Please Don’t Eat the Daisies” syndrome. The theater critic in that movie became enamored with his own humor and fan reaction. He was killing the thing he professed to love with the battle cry, “I will cry tripe whenever tripe is served.” Sam is this critic’s tripe, and she enjoys taking him down for her own amusement (and the amusement of the few others who don’t like the character(do not attack “few” as a fact mistake – Exhibit A: The last column had 30 comments, including repeats and her own injections)). That’s OK for those who agree; I don’t.
    I have no opinion on Mr. Collin’s acting, but I hate the character, Castiel. I do not want to see this character on one more minute of SPN. I realize that the reality is that Mr. Collins loses his job, but that is not my motivation. My motivation is to get a character I hate off of the show I love. I would wish Mr. Collins the best in future ventures – even on SPN as someone or something other than the dreadful, hypocritical, Sam-supplanting, angel I dislike.

    Comment by RS — June 2, 2012 @ 2:26 am

  520. RS–great post #519.

    Comment by CaseyT — June 2, 2012 @ 3:32 am

  521. I really don’t understand the mentality of actively trying to get a character you hate off a show. This isn’t Burger King “get it your way”. It’s a TV show that has to appeal to millions. You can’t try to mold it into your personal tastes. That is incredible egoism. On every TV show there are characters some love, some hate, some are indifferent to. They are all needed. No producer or writer is going to kill off a character because one segment of the fandom doesn’t like him. It doesn’t work that way. For every person who hates Cas, there are at least two who love him. The producers know this. They will get rid of him if, and only if, they decide they don’t need him or if the actor chooses to leave.

    Comment by Jackie — June 2, 2012 @ 5:14 am

  522. Bree, I’ll just put it like this – I rarely see anyone bashing Jensen’s acting. I’ve never felt the need to defend Jensen’s acting or to at least put out a positive opinion re: Jensen’s acting.

    Jared’s acting is frequently trashed by a segment of the audience. We know it happens on Paula’s site, TWOP, and other places. So, I usually like to offer a different opinion on his acting b/c I have no problem with it. I never had a problem w/it. He didn’t struggle to find his footing, IMO. He fell right into his character just like Jensen. To me, they are both really good actors.

    Just to be perfectly clear, I have no problem w/Jensen’s acting, Misha’s acting, Jim’s acting, or any of the acting on the show. The only “bad acting” I ever saw on this show was from GP. Her Ruby downright sucked. When people were complaining about KC’s Ruby, I didn’t agree. KC’s acting was fine to me.

    I really don’t have a problem if someone dislikes Jared’s acting or Misha’s or anyone else’s. I’m not going to spend my time at sites that put down Jared though. I like him and don’t want to read cruel, nasty comments about him. I wouldn’t spend time at sites that put down Jensen either or Misha. I think the Misha dislike here is a little too much at times.

    I like all the actors currently on the show and think they all do a good job w/the material they’re given. That’s JMO though. Feel free to disagree.

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 2, 2012 @ 5:55 am

  523. @522 – but my point was that were criticizing Katie for posting her opinion that Jensen was better as a fact, but you didn’t criticize her when she posted her later opinion that Jared was better as a fact. So, then it seems you only have issues with people posting their opinion as fact some of the time, which is a double standard.

    Comment by Bree — June 2, 2012 @ 6:07 am

  524. Jackie–would you apply the same analysis to those who bombarded CW with demands last year after Castiel was dropped as a regular demanding his return and threatening to stop watching the show. Those people were clearly trying to mold the series to their tastes. Was that not “incredible egoism” by your definition? The producers said they listened to the Castiel supporters last year. Seems to me those who do not like the character are simply copying the same tactic the Castiel supporters used.
    It’s a contentious, deeply engaged fan base which is actually a strength of the series. I don’t think any segment has the moral high ground or is any less or more guilty of trying to influence the series to keep or drop characters or plots.
    I think you are right that Castiel attracts both affection and dislike, not to the ratio you think IMO, but for the series: that’s good. Loved secondary characters have been routinely dropped by SPN, but Castiel is controversial, and controversy generates publicity, discussion, and buzz for the series. I’d venture that those who detest the character are as much responsible for him still being around as those who like the character. What role will Castiel play in SPN has generated much of the publicity and on-line commentary for SPN for several years, and its more than likely that the producers– and actors involved– deliberately stoke the controversy. Its showbiz.

    Comment by CaseyT — June 2, 2012 @ 6:49 am

  525. I tend to believe that when someone on this site uses the word “fact” in their post it means it is a “fact” to them and not necessarily to the rest of the universe. For example: Dean and Sam work better when they are together then when they are apart. For me that is a “fact”. For someone else it may not be. I am not stating that Rutherford Hayes middle name was Birchard (which is a FACT). I am stating that to ME it is a “fact”. I, myself, tend to use the word OPINION instead of “fact” but on this site I never take the word “fact” literally.

    Comment by SL — June 2, 2012 @ 7:16 am

  526. I don’t think Cas was brought back because of any campaign or just because the CW was bombarded with complaints (if that’s true). I think TPTB are astute enough to know how skewed such things can be. I think they roamed around the internet, listened to what all fans were saying, read reviews, both by fans and by legitimate, respected reviewers, and quickly realized Gamble’s vision of just the two brothers on their own and the killing off of Cas and Bobby, along with the whole leviathan storyline and the endless story of Sam’s memories, was a complete disaster. So Gamble lost her job and Carver has to “fix” the show and bringing back Cas is part of that. If the overall conscensus was that the show was fine without Cas and fans were enjoying it without him, he wouldn’t be back regardless of any campaign.

    Comment by Jackie — June 2, 2012 @ 7:46 am

  527. I am a Cas fan though Jensen is really pretty to look at and can you say “screensaver” for Jared’s abs form epi 5.3 “Third Man”, he has the upper torso of the ideal man.

    Jensen is an amazing actor where as Jared is “Serviceable” a number of posts state that Jared is versatile and while I do agree that he has played an array I think versatile is not just about quantity but rather quality. Of the various portals he was best as soulless Sam and he played Lucifer in 5.4 “The End” really well and in 5.22 when he was conversing with himself in the mirror. But then sucked as Lucifer on the battlefield. The “puppy dog” caring thing is just about lowering and softening his voice…and demon same was all about twitching his neck and dropping his brow… repetition sucks. He is at his worst when he is doing angry…the pulling the hair back the, the aggressively pointing at the ground, the tightening of his lips….awful.

    When watching his performance during season 1-6 on dvd I often find myself thinking that’s terrible. I can’t honestly comment on season 7 as I haven’t seen ever episode and when I do watch an episode for the first time I’m more engrossed with the plot and dialogue than with the actors ability to deliver it convincingly.
    But Jensen has far greater ranger, he delivers every emotion: humor, anger, indifference, defeat, regret. With that said he certainly isn’t perfect.

    Maybe the reason why the decision makers keep giving Jared different personas is because they are trying to find something that he can really nail. Soulless Sam was as good as it got for him.

    Comment by N-D's — June 2, 2012 @ 7:58 am

  528. I think they got rid of Cas–not really got rid of because he was in like 4 or 5 eps this year–because they wanted to play out their year of Butch and Sundance which I think was poorly done (oh, the missed opportunity) but that’s all water under the bridge now. I think that he was always supposed to come back. If he makes sense in the story, there is no reason for them not to put him there because as CaseyT noted, he generates controversy and buzz.

    Interesting to note though that the ratings were virtually unaffected by his absence or presence in an episode. The internet “activists” are really a small part of the viewing audience.

    As for Sera, we don’t know exactly what happened behind the scenes, we can only guess. I don’t ratings were necessarily the issue since it was renewed as the second highest rated show on the the CW. But I do think creatively the show had big problems in the last 2 seasons.

    Comment by beth w — June 2, 2012 @ 8:41 am

  529. I agree with Beth! I think Castiel was always supposed to return. I don’t know about anyone else but I never thought he was gone for good after HCW. I had a feeling he’d return, and he did. I don’t think it had anything to do with viewer opinion, etc.

    The boys were only supposed to have each other this year, but that, IMO, did not play out on screen. They had Garth, Frank, Charlie, Kevin Tran, Meg, etc. Whatever Sera was going for never actually materialized on screen.

    JMO of course.

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 2, 2012 @ 9:49 am

  530. @Jackie,post 521

    I agree, especially now. Going to season 8, i think its clear they are going to do what they want,a nd not listen to a very small minority wanting somebody replaced. They just need to put Castil back ot his normal self, and not whatever he was in season 7, which was just awful.

    You are right about Ruby from season 4. She was really bad. Season 3 Ruby was one of the most intresing characters supernatural ever had. You never knew what was going on with her. I wonder if Cassidy just wanted to do something else or they replaced her. How much better would have season 4 been with her?

    Comment by katie — June 2, 2012 @ 6:45 pm

  531. Great news two more writers leaving Supernatural. Looks like they are cleaning house . Ben & Ben are out.

    Also Misha Collins and @jumblejim tweeting that they are trying to or someone is trying to fire him…I think he is referring to the majority…not the minority of fans who want him out ,…or minimized after 4 yrs of being on SPN.

    There are also SPN Sites going up to focus on the SPN brothers more and less on the 2ndary characters like Castiel, Bobby and Garth.

    Comment by ozzie — June 3, 2012 @ 6:31 am

  532. @ ozzie: That is just speculation at this point, but I thought the 2Bs left last season — at least Blacker. I seem to remember a press release about that.

    There is also speculation, without sources, that Ben Edlund is leaving…so rumor only at this point. It wouldn’t surprise me if he does. He has appeared to me to be pretty disinterested in SPN for a couple of years now (especially this year). It has also appeared that he was mostly interested in meta and Cas-centric episodes (both of which I hope we’re done with).

    That said, he’s probably their best and most talented writer. I love his work, but I can understand if he wants to do other things.

    Comment by Sheri — June 3, 2012 @ 8:13 am

  533. @ 532: Spoilertv is reporting that Ben Edlund is not leaving the show; just Ben Blacker and Ben Nacker (too many writers named Ben, maybe?). This is a relief to me, because I love Ben Edlund and his wacky mind. Not everything he does works, but when it does it’s fantastic. I love his creativity and willingness to go a little nuts.

    Comment by luluanne — June 3, 2012 @ 9:27 am

  534. Wow.
    Amazing how cold,thoughtless and mean some people can be.
    I remember good old times when people had to be fired because they really couldn´t get the job done and still their colleagues had a sense of decency and compassion.

    Comment by Naughty — June 3, 2012 @ 11:27 am

  535. @ozzie There is a very small and crazy minority that watn Misha gone, and it will not happen. Carver is not Eric Kripke.

    Hopefully Ben Edlund does not leave. He is better than even Carver or Sera.

    Comment by katie — June 3, 2012 @ 12:13 pm

  536. @ozzie There is a very small and crazy minority that want Misha gone, and it will not happen. Carver is not Eric Kripke.

    Hopefully Ben Edlund does not leave. He is better than even Carver or Sera.

    Comment by katie — June 3, 2012 @ 12:13 pm

  537. There is nothing crazy about wanting Misha gone. Nothing against Misha (he’s a good actor), but the show is Sam & Dean.

    Also, consider how long most recurring characters last on Supernatural. Rufus was in a total of 5 episodes; Ellen 9; Pamela only 4–what exactly makes Castiel so special?

    Comment by JJA — June 3, 2012 @ 12:39 pm

  538. #533: I’m glad Edlund is staying. I love his episodes and it will make it easier for Carver to not have to replace him.

    Comment by Sheri — June 3, 2012 @ 1:33 pm

  539. Actually its the majority of SPN fans that don’t want Collins on SPN in season 8 and the actor even needed body guard Cliff at one of the SPN cons and when Jensen asked if fans were happy to get Castiel back..the majority of fans at the con screamed NO! which even Jensen was surprised.

    Comment by ozzie — June 3, 2012 @ 2:04 pm

  540. Why are people making a big deal of some people wanting Misha fired? Isn’t that the same thing as wanting a character off the show? Because I’m pretty sure EVERY fan at some point has wanted a character off the show and MANY fans have e-mailed and tweeted the producers about it. Ruby, Bela, Jo, and even Sam. This has been going on for a while. It’s nothing new people. It’s normal in a fandom to not like a character and wanting him gone.

    Comment by Sara — June 3, 2012 @ 2:17 pm

  541. Look my main objection to the character cas is that his presence on the show made/make the writers lazy. when ever they needed someone saved or something done the wrote cas to do it. and the role of cas cheapened and imo ruined the characters of sam and dean. especially dean. we got a new profit-they killed off a recurring character who was there since season 1. give us a new angel if we must have an angel. and give us some interesting reaccuring characters and give the show SUPERNATURAL back to dean and sam. and make it a 1 hour horror film like it used to be. not some damn soap opera-which is what the character of cas brings. imo.

    Comment by animal — June 3, 2012 @ 2:34 pm

  542. OH-and to help raise spns ratings-give the impala a bigger role than what it has been the past 2 seasons. men love the impala-they would tune in just to watch baby race around a little bit. give the men 2 bad ass hunters. not whimpy ones like now. and they would see ratings for spn go thru the roof IMO. i know 30 15-18 year old boys who loved seasons 1-4. 5 they are like ehhhh. but 6 and 7-gone. bring back baby as the 3rd winchester and the guys will be back in droves.

    Comment by animal — June 3, 2012 @ 2:41 pm

  543. @ozzie your comment makes no sense. Castiel is a know fan favorite, go to imdb or ign and see what everybody thinks about him. Just make a random post about him. He is beloved.

    @animal I agree about the impala. Also guys like when there are girls on the show. All the guys loved Katie Cassidy. Maybe give Sam a pretty girl, he needs it.

    Comment by katie — June 3, 2012 @ 2:52 pm

  544. @544 katie-it depends on where you go on the internet. but the majority does not want cas in a prominent role on spn-some want him gone-some want him in a limited role-but not as a 3rd winchester as some have desired. nobody wants that except a very few minority groups.i for one want to see him gone completely because of what i said above-but him in a limited role i can deal with that. but there are rumors that he is going to save dean yet again from purgatory and that just grates me. but i am holding out that maybe thats not going to be the case. we’ll see. i think sam should save dean this time. sam and a pretty girl-dean and a pretty girl sounds good to me. i like both brothers.

    Comment by animal — June 3, 2012 @ 3:12 pm

  545. Jared is certainly very versatile when it comes to pulling ridiculous faces instead of acting.

    Comment by Carrie — June 3, 2012 @ 3:14 pm

  546. Unfortunately I think Cas will end up saving Dean. It’s usually Cas who saves the boys from hell or wherever they get stuck in. It will be a cop out the writers will probably take to get Dean to easily forgive Cas. They’re already in a corner with that one.

    All I’m looking forward to is to see what Sam is up to and how he is handling life without Dean (since the outcome of Dean in purgatory seems so damn predictable). Hopefully they’re not going to repeat what we’ve seen before. Let’s have Sam handle it differently please.

    Comment by Sara — June 3, 2012 @ 3:47 pm

  547. Cas is popular with some fans, and I’m guessing they are the young one, but I think just as many or more fans want him gone because of the reasons animal cited. Cas takes away from the brothers, and he has been a focus of the show for two years now. If he’s going to be in the show, and from what I understand, he is, then I hope it is in a limited role.

    I just read the Con report from Australia over on WFB and from the report on Misha, it appears to me (and this is just my interpretation and guess) that Misha is lobbying for a bigger role for Cas when he talks about the mythology not making sense in Cas’s case. I may be judging Misha harshly, but I think he is a self-promoter…has been since he joined the show…and I am interpreting his comments as more self-promotion.

    I’m with animal on wanting the focus on two brothers, in the Impala, and horror/drama as the genre…not emoting personal soap journeys. I want support characters to be just that — support characters supporting the brothers story. I DO NOT want the brothers hooked up with girlfriends or any more love stories introduced. S6 did that for me. It was boring as hell.

    From the sounds of it, the brothers will be re-united quickly. I just hope that doesn’t mean that the story for the season will be the brothers trying to rescue Cas in some way. That would put the focus on him once again, and I don’t want that.

    Comment by Sheri — June 3, 2012 @ 4:10 pm

  548. ozzie, you can say the majority of people want Cas gone all you like, but you have no concrete facts to support his. Have you done a poll with the entire fandom which is really the only way to establish it as fact? Some people at a convention saying they don’t want him back is hardly proof that the majority of the fandom dislike him.

    And I’d like to know which Aussie con Misha stated or hinted he wanted a bigger role because I was at the Melbourne one and not once did he infer or state that he wanted a bigger role. And if he did so at the Sydney one, I’m sure it was done with tongue firmly in cheek.

    I honestly don’t know whether to be more embarrassed or disturbed by some factions of this so-called fandom and their obsession with tearing down somebody they don’t even know.

    Comment by Lisa — June 3, 2012 @ 4:28 pm

  549. @lisa, its a very, very small minority just go to any other site.

    Castiel is very important and should be there but, as he was in season 4. If they are going to keep him they way he as in season 7, which was awful, by all means get rid of him.

    @ sheri I do not want girlfriends either. The Lisa/Dean thing was very boring. They had no chemistry together. What they need is something like Sarah from season 1 with Sam. A steady girlfriend, no.

    Comment by katie — June 3, 2012 @ 4:49 pm

  550. Lisa, I was just thinking the same thing about posters who claim that Cas is not liked by the majority of the fandom. How do they know? I wanted to ask where the poll was that showed this so call fact because I’ve never answered the poll! I’ve introduced at least 10 people to the show and they are really big fans. Not one of those people hate or dislike Cas. They would like to see more of the Impala, more rock music, and more Dean and Sam. Not one of them want to see Cas gone. Most of them like Dean best, and 3 like Sam best. I’ve talk to all of them about the show, and they all agree that the show works best with both brothers. Not one of them see Destiel in the show (and some don’t know what Wincest is, thank God!). I know there are people out there that detest Cas, and some even detest one of the boys, but from my personal experience, I don’t see it (thank goodness!!). Sometimes I feel this is one of those topics (Cas)that goes around and around and around.

    Comment by twinster — June 3, 2012 @ 4:55 pm

  551. @ katie #549: No, I do not want to see Sam with a steady girlfriend. I don’t want to see any love interest introduced into this show, because there is only one way for that to go, and that is something that belongs on Lifetime TV. I don’t want to see weekend hunting from Sam or Dean, and I don’t want another Lisa in the backseat of the Impala mentioned every other episode, or phone calls to lover girl so Dean can tease Sam and that becomes the humor in the show.

    I want the show to remain male-oriented and horror/drama. No more stupid comedy from the likes of Garth, Frank, or Felicia Day. That’s cheap humor that cheapens the show, not the witty humor the show used to have.

    Comment by Sheri — June 3, 2012 @ 5:28 pm

  552. The argument over how many people like Cas is futile. There is no possible way to know what the minority or majority of fans feel. There are far too many fans who do not even voice their opinion of the show on the internet anyways. All I know is how I feel about the character and why. That’s all I care about. I don’t know why everyone seems to be so concerned over what is more popular because I honestly don’t care. I believe Cas has become a detriment to the show in the past years and no stampede of Cas fans will change my mind.

    Comment by Sara — June 3, 2012 @ 5:29 pm

  553. @ I do not want melodrama. They can have girls every now and then without that. The sarah and sam episode was good to see, and it wasn’t too melodramtic eiterh. Also the humor that garth and charlie brought was, imo a good thing. The ridiculous plot of human eating leviathans and ruining castiel, that was the bad thing. There was humor in the early and much better seasons.

    Comment by katie — June 3, 2012 @ 5:39 pm

  554. Sara, you nailed it on the head. There really is no way to tell what the minority or majority feel about Cas. We can only voice our own opinion about the character, and how we feel personally.

    Comment by twinster — June 3, 2012 @ 5:40 pm

  555. @ 553: They have girls in every episode, and I have no problem with things like the slight flirtation with Sarah (although I thought the actress was terrible, but the written character okay).

    Many seemed to like the Garth humor, but I didn’t find a village idiot hunter interesting at all. Nor did I find a 30-something woman acting like an early 20-year old geek something I was interested in — especially when the episode was entirely her’s while the brothers were reduced to sitting in a van for the duration.

    I do agree that the human eating leviathans were ridiculous and not scary at all. They were nothing more than a boring tool to write political and social commentary, instead of providing an intriguing season’s mytharc. I also really did not find Misha playing Cas as Misha funny, entertaining, or anything but a lazy writer’s tool for getting rid of that unsuccessful Sam hellpain story that was carried over from S6.

    As far as I’m concerned, we really didn’t get much of anything this season. I’m just happy the new boss was gutsy enough to get rid of SG or that she was smart enough leave on her own, whichever the case may be. Despite hearing the Robert Singer spoiler that the Purgatory story is probably pretty much out the window — something I was really excited about — I still have hope that Carver will sink his teeth into the story and the TWO characters (+ Impala) and we’ll have a good S8. It surely can’t be as worse than S6 and S7.

    Comment by Sheri — June 3, 2012 @ 6:42 pm

  556. I will be totally crushed if the Purgatory story has been thrown out the window, so to speak. I hope it’s another diversionary spoiler that SPN seems to enjoy (you know, they will say the story is going a certain way, and then boom, do something completely different). Anyhow…keeping my fingers cross that the Purgatory story will still be in place in Season 8.

    Comment by twinster — June 3, 2012 @ 7:27 pm

  557. # 556: Well, it’s way too early to tell for sure, but Singer is a co-showrunner with Carver, so he was in on the initial breaking of story ideas. (The writers went back to work in May sometime.) All he revealed was that the brothers would be quickly re-united in the show, but that a lot of time had passed in Purgatory. If the brothers are together, that seems to squelch Dean’s Purgatory story unless it’s thru flashbacks or Cas is left down there and the brothers work on getting him out. I hope that’s not the season’s story.

    He also said that Sam would be given a human story — whatever that means.

    I’m looking forward to Comic Con in mid-July to see if we get an indication of what the story will be.

    Comment by Sheri — June 3, 2012 @ 8:01 pm

  558. I’m not one who wants Castiel to remain. I loved his character in the very beginning but very much dislike what the writers did with it. So now, there’s nothing they could do with his character that would suit me. I don’t know if that puts me in the majority, minority, or what.

    Ditto for my opinion of Ben Edlund. I do not like his style of humor; I despise the meta stuff. JMO, of course. I imagine he will remain.

    Comment by bestshowfan — June 3, 2012 @ 8:07 pm

  559. I have no interest in the next season without a Purgatory storyline that actually shakes up the status quo. I can’t take any more of Dean stuck as caretaker and not part of the main plot. Five minutes in a finale don’t even start to make up for the waste of the past two years.

    I don’t care about Edlund since he hasn’t been in good form for a long time.

    Comment by ORLY — June 3, 2012 @ 11:36 pm

  560. @558: That´s exactly my opinion. They took his character, no, they used it, to put out everything, that didn´t fit in any other character. And that´s not good writing, that´s recycling, I´d say. And the Meta-episodes- I think they´re funny alright, but always out of context a bit. And they are the episodes in which the Sam-Dean-relationships suffers the most.

    Comment by Mary — June 4, 2012 @ 3:29 am

  561. @Sheri – I’m not sure Sam’s hellpain story can be described as unsuccessful. The potential for the story was great, IMO, and the setup after HCW was really good. Unfortunately, Sera & Co. just dropped the story. Or rather the execution of the story was unimaginative, uncreative, and just plain bad. There’s so much they could have done with the hallucinations, but they chose to do nothing.

    Now, I know you don’t care about emotional stories for either boy so maybe the setup was never one that interested you. I was greatly interested though and was sorely disappointed with the execution of the “story.” I guess I just disagree with the description of it being unsuccessful; I would characterize it more as “unrealized.”

    As far as Purgatory is concerned, I personally wouldn’t have dumped Dean there in the first place, and I wasn’t too excited about that story personally so I don’t really care if it’s wrapped up in the premiere.

    From a literary standpoint though, it does seem silly to put Dean there but then not show him there. If this is true, maybe they thought they had to make Purgatory “too Earth-like” for Dean to be there a long time. After the finale, I wondered how Dean was going to find food, water, shelter, and weapons to survive. His human body
    was thrown there so I assumed he still finds himself hungry, tired, etc. You could also theorize that while in Purgatory Dean doesn’t feel hunger, etc. but he would still need shelter and weapons. Are there other humans in Purgatory? Is Dean the lone human in a world full of monsters with just doofy Cas as a backup? How does that work? It’s a weird setup with some limitations. I can see people complaining now if Purgatory was just like Earth but it kind of has to be if a prolonged story is planned there. Dean would go insane with no one to talk to, etc.

    I’m not sure how I feel about next season. This season was so horrible and was, IMO, the worst season of Supernatural ever. I didn’t care for Season 5. Greatly enjoyed Season 6. Absolutely hated Season 7 except for three episodes. Indifferent about Season 8.

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 4, 2012 @ 3:37 am

  562. Don’t enjoy the Cas character and am solidly among those who would love to see him gone. Whatever character he is playing in any given year (he been everything from frightening angel to buffoon) eats up Dean’s story and I’m tired of Dean as his caretaker, redeemer, slash-fiction partner, and straight-man for Collins’ silly jokes. Particularly during the last part of season 7, Castiel became Collins’ on-line kiddy act and the action stopped every time he appeared to let him crack some lame-ass joke. Stop the action; let’s all watch Collins playing Twister. Classic, let’s throw in Collins to placate the Cas fans–doesn’t matter if it disrupts the story.
    Like Sheri I think Collins is outrageously self-promoting; I see him as a guy who uses his twitter followers shamelessly to get himself a better contract. He’ll do anything from giving harbor tours of Vancouver to bus tours of Toronto to stay associated with SPN. Never seen an actor so determined to hang on to a secondary role and keep hope alive for becoming a star of the series. There is of course a pot of gold if he can pull off getting that big contract so I don’t blame him. Particularly, since he seems to believe that he doesn’t have much of a chance of building a career anywhere else.
    That said, he does have a following, and I can tolerate him in small amounts and keeping him in a supporting role is OK with me. There is no evidence he adds to the ratings, but he has a vocal fan following, so I’d say, keep him in the series just don’t allow him to crowd out the possibility for Dean having a real story anymore, and most of all don’t grant the wish of the his most rabid fans to turn SPN into a Cas-Dean series that largely eliminates Sam/Jared (who that group seems to truly hate), and turn SPN into sappy, made for pre-teens, Dean Winchester and His Precious Raincoated Angel.
    Just my take on the latest Collins controversy. The guy is great at getting publicity out of a secondary role. Got to give him that.

    Comment by CaseyT — June 4, 2012 @ 4:15 am

  563. eh, the Castiel/Destiel fans have never been that concerned about a person’s job when they are talking about Jared leaving the show. Nobody was too concerned about Sera’s livelihood when they were demanding for her to be replaced. It’s sort of disingenuous to only complain about people wanting Cas off the show. If he stays, fine. If he leaves, fine. Just have the show focus on the brothers

    CaseyT, Your post reminds me of a story. Misha jokingly told some con crowd to that he wanted to be on Dr Who so they should write the producers. They tweeted Stephen Moffet so much that he got annoyed and asked them to stop.

    Comment by beth w — June 4, 2012 @ 6:00 am

  564. @ Lisa1 #561: I thought the Purgatory story opened a lot of possibilities; one being a storyline for Dean for a change, and I wouldn’t have minded a 5 or 6 episode storyline covering that. I wasn’t sure how it would work by them putting Cas into Purgatory with Dean, but given the career levels these writers have achieved, I would think they could have come up with something exciting. Now that Singer has said the brothers would be re-united quickly, I’m just hoping that the season doesn’t involve the brothers trying to get Cas out of there or away from Crowley.

    The biggest thing I don’t understand, however, is why get so many fans excited about the Purgatory story and then the first spoiler out of the box is that there probably will not be a Purgatory story. It doesn’t make sense and, for me anyway, it leaves me completely confused.

    Whether Sam’s story was unsuccessful or unrealized doesn’t make a difference, because it ended up not being a story at all. Both Sam and Dean’s supposed stories were just dropped this season in favor of Bobby and guest stars, and Cas’s story turned out to simply be showcasing Misha for fan service purposes. It was a horrible season.

    I wasn’t too excited about S5, and hated it after SS, hated S6, and completely hated S7. Now, I’m just hoping Carver gets ahold of the show and gives us something good for S8. I’m going to give him a chance, anyway, to fix the mess that EK and SG made of a really good show.

    @ ORLY and bestshowfan: I will give you that Ben Edlund has seemed disinterested in the show for the last couple of years; more so in S7 than in S6 even. I personal opinion of this is that there was a lot more discontent behind the scenes with SG as a showrunner than we’ll ever know about. I think if SG was still showrunner, Ben would probably have left.

    I still think Ben is an extremely talented and creative writer, and I hope that Carver will provide the strong hand I think Ben needs to reign him in. To me, Ben does better under strong leadership, and I don’t think SG provided that — or even the focus any writer needs to make a successful season. In fact, I don’t think the show has had any focus since SG has been in charge, and that’s why canon was thrown out, stories were realized, and characterization was all over the place.

    @ CaseyT: I agree with you on Misha, Casey. He’s hanging on to his support role for all he’s worth while believing in his own mind that he is a star in the show. I really hope they don’t use him too much this season, and that he is used as the support character he is.

    Comment by Sheri — June 4, 2012 @ 9:36 am

  565. @orly Edlund was not in good form this year, but who was? He wrote one of the best episodes of the show in season 6, Clap your hands. If they can just simplify the mythology, with no leviathans. He is very important to the show.

    I don’t know anybody who wants supernatural to be a castiel/dean show, that would be awful. Sam should always be the main character imo. Castiel should be used if hes normal again, like Bobby was, as a secondary character to back them up.

    Comment by katie — June 4, 2012 @ 11:01 am

  566. i sorry for my english i from georgia end i our fandom cas is very popylar end beloved character end meny people stop watching shoy when hi was ded i love sem and din but i love cas to

    Comment by tamo — June 4, 2012 @ 11:49 am

  567. As a fan of Supernatural:
    I DON’T want a purgatory story. Sick of the religious crap.
    I want Castiel back- in a supporting role.
    I want Dean and Sam back together and working well with each other.
    I want the Impala in every single episode.
    That’s what this fan of the show wants. The rest of you can represent yourselves .

    Comment by SL — June 4, 2012 @ 12:48 pm

  568. I love Sam, more than I like Dean, but I find the friendship between Dean and Cas far more interesting and realistic than the relationship between Sam and Dean. There is nothing realistic or adult about their relationship. They seem to be forever stuck in the same rut as they’ve been in since they were kids. Not to mention being just unhealthy and weird. So while I love Sam on his own (or with anyone else), Sam and Dean are played out and creepy. Cas and Dean have a much more mature relationship and normal friendship. I think Sam and Dean are probably popular among the tweens but Cas and Dean are more popular for those over 20.

    Comment by Jackie — June 4, 2012 @ 1:27 pm

  569. just to throw in about cas’s poplularity. wherever you go (youtube for example) people are talking about DEAN being in purgatory and whether or not they like the idea of him there. “he is in deep shit”, “dean will have to kick some butt” ect…. every comment on the purgatory story is about dean. -most don’t even mention cas being there with him. why-using your common sense-because most are disappointed that he is there. they don’t WANT him there with dean. if he is so popular with fans-why wouldn’t there be concern about him being there as well as dean.??just asking???

    Comment by animal — June 4, 2012 @ 1:31 pm

  570. @jackie How about just sam, and everybody revolves around him, including dean?

    Comment by katie — June 4, 2012 @ 1:51 pm

  571. @katie Are you really kicking shit up because someone said they like Sam more than Dean?

    Comment by Kiki — June 4, 2012 @ 2:53 pm

  572. @568 I agree that Sam and Dean are played out and creepy. They’ll never get along and it’ll always be Dean considered to be standing in the way of Sam in some way so there’s absolutely no appeal for a lot of Dean fans.

    @565 Sam is already the main character. I don’t know what people keep complaining about in regards to his status. You might as well ask that every other character be named Sam and be played by Jared.

    Comment by ORLY — June 4, 2012 @ 3:05 pm

  573. I have never understood how Cas and Dean are “friends”. Allies maybe, but friends? That’s stretching it if you ask me. Cas only goes to Dean when he needs something, and Dean only calls on Cas when he needs him. Call me crazy but I always thought a friend isn’t someone who is around just when you want something. They don’t seem to enjoy time together, they just work together. It seems they just use each other to get the job done. I don’t care if the writers try to spoonfeed it to the fans, I don’t see it at all.

    Comment by Sara — June 4, 2012 @ 3:44 pm

  574. @573 I could say that same thing about Sam and Dean. So what if they’re related. There are tons of family members who are blood but can’t stand each other and shouldn’t be forced together.

    Comment by ORLY — June 4, 2012 @ 3:48 pm

  575. @ Jackie: I don’t see it the way you do, simply because S6 was all soulless Sam, until SG turned the season into being all about Cas. I, quite frankly, didn’t know which Sam I was going to see in any given episode, because Sam was all over the place.

    What SG did to Dean’s character was just unforgivable. She either didn’t want to know Dean’s character or deliberately set out to ruin it. I lean towards the later.

    As far as the Sam/Dean relationship, it hasn’t been there since the end of S3. It’s a myth. I don’t see how it can be weird, twisted, dependent, or unhealthy, since it’s not been shown as anything other than two guys traveling in the same car on the same highway. Actually, I wished it was there, like it was back in S1-S3. That’s what made the show unique and interesting.

    I agree that right now that Dean and Cas are more interesting than Sam and Dean, because Sam has been missing for several years now. My problem with Cas, though, is that when S6 and all about Sam didn’t go over well, the show gave a support character the main story, and that support character shoved the two leads to the background.

    All I can say is that I am glad SG and her Sam crush are gone, and I hope that Carver gives the show back to the two leads. I don’t care how he does it; separate or together, but after 7 years, Dean had better get an equal story this season.

    Comment by Sheri — June 4, 2012 @ 3:49 pm

  576. I don’t think Sera had a Sam crush at all. If she did, she would’ve dragged out Sam’s storyline this season for all it’s worth. Instead she only addressed it for the first few episodes, dropped it and then completely resolved it in one episode. The last 2 seasons under her direction have been mostly about Cas and supporting characters so I don’t really believe she has a Sam crush.

    Comment by Kiki — June 4, 2012 @ 4:00 pm

  577. @575 I think it’s too late to reinstate Sam and Dean. Ruby was bad enough but Amy on top of that? There’s such a thing as a bridge too far.

    I also read an advice column letter about a woman who thought marriage would somehow “fix” her problems with severe PMS and addiction and she blamed her boyfriends for refusing to commit. The adviser told her that it’s not up to the men in her life to fix her and why on earth should they commit to someone who was such a mess. And I really wish people would stop demanding that Dean fix Sam and blame Dean for not fixing him just like that woman demands her boyfriends marry and fix her.

    Comment by ORLY — June 4, 2012 @ 4:04 pm

  578. Remember the days when you actually looked forward to the next season premiere instead of dreading how badly they may mess it up? I’m not very optimistic. Hopefully Carver restores my faith in the show, focuses back on the brothers and keeps Cas in the background where he belongs.

    Comment by Sara — June 4, 2012 @ 4:18 pm

  579. @ 576: As I understand from various interviews, SG’s plan was to drag Sam’s S6 soulless story thru-out the whole S6, but when no one was satisfied — Dean fans and Sam fans alike — a mid-course correction was made. I think that’s why the story turned to Cas in S6. S7 was supposed to be all about fanservice; i.e., that’s why all the stuntcasting and focus on support characters. I have no idea why she thought that would work, since there was never a backstory for those characters introduced and nobody had any vested interest in them. I just chock it up to SG being over her head in the showrunner department — but I also strongly believe she had real issues with JA for some reason, but that’s not the only person on staff that had issues with her way of doing things.

    # ORLY #577: I agree with you that Sam is the only person that can fix Sam, and I hope the writers consider that in the new season. I’m still waiting for Sam to show some appreciation and consideration for his brother — and that doesn’t mean saving Dean because Sam just can’t make it on his own.

    Comment by Sheri — June 4, 2012 @ 4:27 pm

  580. @ Sera #573: Ever since Cas showed up, there has been a triangle with Sam and Cas competing for Dean’s affection. That started out slowly in S4, when Cas was learning to be ‘human’ from Dean.

    When Cas gave up all faith in God in Dark Side of the Moon, he put all his trust and faith in Dean. That’s why he beat the crap out of Dean in Point of No Return — Dean had disappointed him. That’s also why Cas was begging Dean to back him in his plan to get all the souls from Purgatory. He wanted Dean’s okay; it was the big tug of war in the ‘affection’ triangle.

    The sad part was that Sam had Ruby in S4, but after that, he became the mute one. The writers relied on the established ‘brother bond,’ which was a myth by then, so Cas came into the forefront (aided by Misha’s self-promotion campaign).

    That’s why people like me want Cas’s character gone or little used and the focus back on Sam and Dean.

    Comment by Sheri — June 4, 2012 @ 4:41 pm

  581. @579 The problem is that they’d have to show me they can actually write that before I can even bother to care about it and even if they did so, it basically goes against all of Sam’s characterization until now. I would half expect Dean to pull out a gun and say “Who the hell are you really?” because he’s actually done stuff like that in the past to imposters who blew their cover the second they said something way too nice for the family member they were impersonating.

    Comment by ORLY — June 4, 2012 @ 4:43 pm

  582. @580 Sam’s not been mute. He’s just saying things you don’t want to admit he’s saying. I look at his actions. I see a man who ran off with Ruby. I see a man who left Dean over Amy. He’s pretty much making it really clear how he feels and thinks.

    Why do you want a resurrection of a myth? I could not believe in it after everything that went down.

    Even if you despise Castiel, I don’t see why you want Sam to win this triangle thing instead of just saying “OK, neither wins, Dean runs off with Kevin!”

    Comment by ORLY — June 4, 2012 @ 4:50 pm

  583. The show itself is secondary to the characters of Sam and Dean- anybody who doesn’t understand this, doesn’t understand what made Supernatural work.

    As a fan of Sam and Dean, I want a show about Sam and Dean. It really is as simple as that.

    Comment by Johno — June 4, 2012 @ 6:02 pm

  584. I think season 4 was a little more complicated than just Sam running off with Ruby for no reason but that horse is kind of dead now. Many apologies and saving the world has happened, so may the horse RIP.

    Sam did get mad at Dean for killing Amy AND for lying to his face. Who wouldn’t be mad? Dean would be mad and might get in a poke or two. We must also mention that he told Dean he was right one episode later. I wouldn’t say the Amy thing was a gold star for either brother.

    I don’t think those two things are the only things that Sam should be judged by considering all the times that he has shown care and worry over Dean. So if we are going to mention the negative, we should also mention the positive, right? How about some recent examples? We should mention that Sam told Samuel that he would put a bullet in his head if Dean wasn’t OK. He said he would rather be in his own reality as Dean’s brother than rich and famous in another one. He refused to let Dean look for Ben and Lisa alone. He faced his hell memories because he would not leave his brother alone out there and fought off his own hallucinations to get to him. He defended Dean to Osiris and saved his life. He made a frantic dash to save Dean from his own daughter. He worked tirelessly to bring him back from the 1940’s and was in despair over the thought of Dean being stuck there. He was going to “make” a women in Repo Man talk to find out where Dean was. He has been concerned about Dean drinking and depression all season. He is obviously devastated over Dean being in purgatory.

    Comment by beth w — June 4, 2012 @ 6:12 pm

  585. I really wish people who keep pushing for Sam and Dean to be together forever would just admit that they don’t want things to change when it comes to Dean ever getting a storyline or anything else about him. A lot of the people insisting that they stay together are also insisting that the dynamics CAN’T change or if they do then, Sam has to be the undisputed boss and better hunter of the two. No thanks.

    I’ve seen shows where they’ve changed the main dynamic or character. Michael J. Fox was replaced by Charlie Sheen in Spin City. And Joey ends up with Pacey, not Dawson though it was originally to be Dawson & Joey. Psycho had a heroine who the audience thought was going to be there all the way through then it killed her. Blake’s Seven is named after a guy who disappears early on in the series. So please knock it off with acting as if the premise or the “OTP” of the show is sacred like some holy writ. God knows they’ve retconned and bent every other rule or relationship or historical event on the show.

    Comment by ORLY — June 4, 2012 @ 6:23 pm

  586. @kiki #571 I am not kicking shit. I am being serious. The show is better when it revolves around him, like season 3.

    @ORLY What do you mean Ruby was bad enough? The only thing bad about that character was the fact they switched actresses in season 4. She brought alot to the show in season 3, clearly.

    Comment by katie — June 4, 2012 @ 6:46 pm

  587. @586 How you totally miss my point! It’s the fact that Sam chose her over Dean until Lucifer started rising to show what a huge mistake it was. Even after that, he still prefers monster booty over his brother years afterwards.

    Maybe Sam should just team up with a monster if he likes monsters so much then. I still find it creepy he had a “thing” for someone who looked like Ruby in one of those meta episodes.

    Comment by ORLY — June 4, 2012 @ 6:52 pm

  588. He chose Ruby in season 4 b/c he honestly thought it would help. It also was needed to pit the brothers against each other. Every episode can not be them riding around and joking every week.

    Comment by katie — June 4, 2012 @ 7:01 pm

  589. @588 No, he chose Ruby because she stroked his ego into making him feel like he was better than Dean and stronger.

    Wow, where is this magical show where they joke and laugh most of the time? Every episode shouldn’t be about a miserable hell of angst about a relationship that only exists because everybody else is dead.

    Comment by ORLY — June 4, 2012 @ 7:06 pm

  590. The brotherhood is considered sacred by most of the fans who understand this show. Changing that would definitely kill the show. Look at how the ratings are dropping considering the past 2 seasons have featured supporting characters more than the brothers. It’s not gonna happen. I really doubt the writers and producers would ever go for that. Keep dreaming.

    Comment by Lo — June 4, 2012 @ 7:07 pm

  591. You’re right, I don’t get your point. Ruby manipulated Sam and Sam fell for it. He got himself messed up with demon blood and let the devil out. He admitted it; he said he was sorry; he took responsibility for it. Almost four years later, Ruby is an issue? Remember he held her while Dean stabbed her.

    Not sure Sam chose Amy over Dean? He let her live because of a past connection and his compassion over her son. Dean lied that he trusted Sam’s judgment and then went and killed her. (Not blaming Dean for the killing part) Wouldn’t you be mad for awhile at least that you were lied to? But he’s not mad about that any more. Dean even got to yell at Sam and put him in his place for daring to be mad. And apparently Sam learned his lesson well because he went right in and shot Emma when necessary.

    How does what happened with Ruby and Amy equal Sam always choosing monsters over Dean? How many monsters has Sam killed to save Dean? Guess who didn’t want to work with Meg this season?

    The French Mistake: Aw come on, Dean was admiring Fake Ruby too. Gen is a pretty lady.

    Comment by beth w — June 4, 2012 @ 7:18 pm

  592. Largest 18-49 Demo Percentage Increase From DVR Viewing for Broadcast TV Shows:

    #3 SUPERNATURAL Finale 0.7 to 1.1 57% increase

    (1 and 2 were Grimm and Modern Family)

    Comment by beth w — June 4, 2012 @ 7:29 pm

  593. I disagree with the post that differentiates this show from Burger King product. It is exactly that. Of course the fans do not write the show – no more than we cook the burgers. We are the consumers. We make no decisions other than whether to support the final product or not. I never lambasted the Cas supporters when they threatened to stop watching after the loss of their character. I was fine with that, and not in a snarky or bitter way. A boycott is a legitimate and time-honored way to display disapproval. But if such a boycott was implemented, there is numeric evidence that it did not significantly affect the ratings (which remained at 0.7 to 0.8 all season). The lowest rating of the series was one 0.6 – the much heralded return of Castiel (and yes, the premiere of the Hunger Games – the number is what it is – Cas returned to a series low). So if the Sam-fans, brother-fans, and Cas-haters decide to stop watching if the shows turns into the Dean-Cas hour, that will be our right. I don’t know what that would do to the ratings. No one does.
    It was many posts ago, but I seem to remember that a reviewer I’ve never heard of was advocating that the Js wanted to be apart, so we should support that in order to have more years of SPN. What? I should prefer two seasons I don’t like (brothers separated), rather than one season I like (brothers together). That makes absolutely no sense to me.

    Comment by RS — June 4, 2012 @ 7:30 pm

  594. @beth w, Dean was wrong to kill amy. He created monster where there was not won before, in the little kid. Dean is like his father, there is no middle ground. Sam more thinks for himself, and somethimes makes the wrong choice too, Ruby in season 4.

    @ORLY, Most of the episodes could be them all happy, but what happened is season 4, was and good and needed. You didn’t like when the levee breaks? that was great. I don’t want to see that much, but it worked then.

    Comment by katie — June 4, 2012 @ 7:38 pm

  595. @594 AHAHAHA. Amy was a monster who killed humans. There was already a monster who used people as food. Just because she kissed Sam and cooed at him when she was small doesn’t suddenly make her not a monster unless you think the audience is supposed to cheer for monsters that eat people.

    I suppose you’re cool with that guy who hate that man’s face in the news lately or that man who ate his roommate’s brains and heart.

    Comment by ORLY — June 4, 2012 @ 7:56 pm

  596. Katie, I believe Dean had to kill Amy. She was eating humans! She would not have stopped, as soon as her kid got sick again, she would have been judge and jury, picked a human she thought was unworthy and then she would have eaten him/her. Dean did make a mistake in not telling Sam, but she needed killing. She was a human eating monster.

    And, I don’t know if I want to watch a show that is all about Sam (kinda boring there). The show should be about the two brothers equally.

    Comment by twinster — June 4, 2012 @ 8:18 pm

  597. When people stoop to defending monsters using humans as food as something to wink at in order to defend Sam’s behavior . . . I’m sure that they’d defend Sam making Dean into a ham and periodically snacking on him. Because hey, eating people is no biggie.

    Maybe that’s what Season 8 should be all about. The many ways that Sam can cook and prepare his brother to have him “fill” his needs.

    Comment by ORLY — June 4, 2012 @ 8:22 pm

  598. @597 Nothing compared to the Cas fans. Giving Dean crap for not forgiving Cas for breaking his brother’s head, releasing the Leviathans and slaughtering thousands. At least Sam admitted to being wrong and apologized for it unlike Cas.

    Comment by Lil — June 4, 2012 @ 8:34 pm

  599. @598 At best, you’re explaining why Dean should leave them both. Not why he should stick with Sam. I just love how to you, the idea of Sam making Dean into a ham is nothing compared to what Castiel has done.

    Comment by ORLY — June 4, 2012 @ 8:40 pm

  600. You make no sense at all.

    Comment by Lil — June 4, 2012 @ 8:47 pm

  601. @599 WTF are you talking about? What show are you watching? I’m pretty sure Sam never made into a thanksgiving meal. I feel embarrassed for you man.

    Comment by Oz — June 4, 2012 @ 8:49 pm

  602. You’re taking the ham thing way too seriously. I’m just pointing out that waving off monsters eating peoples not going to fly.

    If you insist Amy is human then she’s a serial killer who made her kid a cannibal. I’m sorry that’s actually, you know, WRONG!

    If you say she’s a monster then she’s a monster who killed a lot of people and fed parts to her spawn. Either way, I find the idea that she’s just the sweetest cutest thing ever to be stupid considering nobody is on board with the actual human man in the news intent on eating a man’s face to the point cops had to shoot him in order to stop him mauling someone. When you dismiss that kind of behavior just so Sam escapes blame, you completely undermine your position as being in any way impartial.

    Comment by ORLY — June 4, 2012 @ 9:02 pm

  603. Orly, I got the ham reference. Wasn’t too hard to get what you were trying to say. I don’t know why posters thought you were being literal~LOL!! Anyhow..Amy had to die like you said, she was killing humans and eating them (I forgot the part of her feeding them to her kid, yikes!). I don’t understand why people are upset that Dean killed a human eating monster (other than the part where he didn’t tell Sam).

    Comment by twinster — June 4, 2012 @ 9:16 pm

  604. Except katie is the only one who actually offered the opinion that Dean was wrong to kill Amy. Some of the posters you are lashing out at have not even stated their stance on the subject. THAT’S what makes no sense to me. It doesn’t matter anyway, Sam admitted he was wrong and apologized to Dean. People make mistakes and he acknowledged that he made one. Something you either are conveniently ignoring or have forgotten.

    Comment by Lil — June 4, 2012 @ 9:20 pm

  605. @604 But it’s HOW Sam reacted that pisses me off. He stomps off and doesn’t say when he’d be back. And he chooses that issue to stomp off and be mad about? SAM thought he was right and everybody’s minimizing the fact that HE ignored a monster eating people or a cannibal serial killer because he liked her.

    So what if he apologizes, I dislike the fact that he stomped off in the first place. It would be like having a partner angry that you set a grave on fire to kill a ghost because the lady ghost is so cute and sweet except for the killing people part.

    It’s one thing if Sam was a newbie hunter but he’s known about this stuff since he was a kid. It’s something I’d expect from someone like Kevin.

    Comment by ORLY — June 4, 2012 @ 9:47 pm

  606. I think Orly is saying that Dean should have killed the monster Amy (doesn’t matter if Sam apologized to Dean later about his behavior), that is not the point. It’s Katies’s opinion that Dean should have let Amy (monster, eating human that she was) go that Orly, and others disagree with (including me). And Sam did stomp off and leave Dean for a couple of weeks (it would have been longer if Dean hadn’t come across Sam in that crazy town with all the psychics). But at least Sam did apologize for his behavior. And I thought Dean explained his reasons for not telling Sam in the first placed quite well. Dean did what he had to do (even Sam agreed with him eventually).

    Comment by twinster — June 4, 2012 @ 10:13 pm

  607. If Amy was just any other monster that had to be killed, when why did Dean feel so much guilt over her? What differentiates her from many other monsters they’ve killed?

    Comment by Etain — June 5, 2012 @ 1:01 am

  608. Dean killing Amy ? interesting POV’S of course it cpmes down to wether you either believe Dean had the right and had the right to lie to Sam or wether you believe that Dean doesnt have that ok.

    Sam stomped off maybe but then that is how Sam deals with things .Dean uses physical violence in hitting that is how he handles things which is worse? if Dean is entitled to do that then Sam is entitled to react in way he likes .

    Dean was wrong to kill Amy and he comes across as a hypocrite but that wasnt the point if people truly understood how the ‘monster’ issue effects Sam how close to the heart it has been for him then Dean’s actions arent painted in a great light.

    Sam shouldnt of aplogized for his behaviour he had nothing to apologize for he wasnt the one in the wrong but again it was poor writing .The truth is the show didnt have the guts againt to stand by what happened and decide we will have Sam say sorry and Dean look like the wronged brother .

    Wether some see it really doesnt matter but Dean isnt always in the right and sometimes Sam is right to feel how he does .Dean didnt have a clue about why Amy and what he did upset Sam and of course because we dont really get Sam’s pov on it people just side with Dean.

    If Amy is a monster to be killed because she killed 4 people to survive and in Deans mind because he didnt trust Sam’s judgement and lied through his teeth to Sam he went off and killed her.

    Amy wasnt just a monster and Dean knew it if people are going to be so quick and fall over themselves to tell us all Sam’s wrongs and mistakes then they should have the honesty where Dean is concerned .

    Comment by Sarah — June 5, 2012 @ 2:28 am

  609. @ ORLY #582: You are misinterpreting me wanting the mythical brother bond back. What I want back is a story about the Winchester brothers, not a show about a psuedo father (Bobby) or one brother and his angel (deus ex machina).

    I want a show that puts the Winchesters in their rightful place in the hunting community.

    I want a show that gives both brothers a story, not a show that focuses on one brother or drops both brothers’ stories in favor of support characters.

    I don’t think the show can ever make me believe in the mythical brother bond again, after what they have done to Sam’s character, but I believe it can make a show that has both brothers accept the faults of the other and still loves them because they are family. That’s what the show started out as. Until Sam accepts and acknowledges the kind of man Dean is, that won’t happen. And…it won’t happen if Cas is shoehorned in for no apparent reason other than the showrunner likes him or thinks fans are clambering for Misha to be on the show.

    To make my point, I will say that I was not sorry they killed off Bobby…finally. I didn’t like what they did to Bobby’s character any more than I like what they have done with Cas. I used to like Bobby, until they stuck him in a wheelchair and turned him into a whining, grumpy dick, then into the pseudo-father Yoda hunter that made the brothers look like junior hunters in training.

    That’s why I am an advocate for not bringing Bobby back and for getting rid of Cas once and for all. In fact, I would be for getting rid of all the old support characters, start with a clean slate, and bring in new and interesting characters in. I don’t think the show needs to keep recycling old stories when there are too many other good story potentialities that would make both Sam fans and Dean fans happy.

    Comment by Sheri — June 5, 2012 @ 3:20 am

  610. @607 Dean didn’t feel guilty for killing Amy. He felt guilty for lying to Sam.
    @608 Look, I think it all depends on who is your favorite brother. If your a Sam fan then of course your going to see Sam in the right and if your a Dean fan your going to think that Dean is right.
    As for how the brothers deal with things you say Dean deals with violence and Sam just leaves. Just how many times in the past 7 years has Dean hit Sam? It’s not as many as some think. He gets his hit in and then he’s over it. How many times in the past 7 years has Sam threatened or just up and left Dean? I don’t know about you but I’d prefer the odd sting to my jaw then the constant worry that the person I care most about is going to up and leave me any time he gets pissed.
    ^^ Just my opinion

    Comment by me — June 5, 2012 @ 4:09 am

  611. Well, clearly, there are some who will never forgive Sam for his trangressions in Season 4. He made some bad decisions, and those decisions will follow him until he dies apparently. He will never be good enough to breathe the same air as Dean to some viewers. It’s been 4 years since those decisions, but Sam is still raked over the coals for it despite the writers’ having him apologize and “redeem” himself. I didn’t care for the blanket apology myself but I recognize that it was Kripke’s intent to squash the matter. I also recognize that the characters have long since moved past Season 4. But if you’re still sore b/c of it, that’s cool.

    It must be hard to watch the show when you have overwhelming hate for one of the leads. While each lead has annoyed me at some point, I can’t say I hate either. I love both Sam and Dean equally, and that makes the show more pleasurable to watch, for me. I can’t speak for anyone else.

    The Amy drama was contrived, pointless nonsense. It shouldn’t even be discussed b/c no thought was put into developing that “story.”

    Sam identified with Amy b/c she was a freak. Sam thinks of himself as a freak. He let Amy go b/c Sam likes to think not all monsters/creatures are evil b/c that how sees himself: as a monster/freak.

    I had no problem with Dean killing Amy. I’m not even sure why Sam was upset with him for doing it b/c in the follow-up episode, Sam doesn’t mention Dean’s lack of trust in his judgment or his kinship to Amy as the reasons why he was upset; he speaks about knowing Dean’s lying about his feelings or something as the reason why he was so upset. It was stupid, poorly written, pointless, unneccessary drama. It would have been more interesting if Sam had been upset b/c Dean told Sam to make him Sam’s stone #1 and he had been lying to Sam, or if Sam felt bad b/c Dean killed a “fellow freak.” I don’t know. Anything would have been better than the crap that was written.

    In any event, Sam had every right to be upset with Dean. Contrary to popular belief, Sam IS allowed to be angry with Dean. He doesn’t have to get over something just b/c Dean demands it though that’s exactly what happened! Dean told Sam to get over, and Sam did so what’s the problem?

    Are some really upset b/c Sam chose to go off by himself instead of punch Dean numerous times in the face?!?!? I’m sure if Sam laid a hand on Dean, we’d never hear the end of it. Sam leaves; Dean punches repeatedly. For me, Sam’s method of dealing is better but that’s me.

    Dean was not wrong for killing Amy. He should have popped the kid too. But Sam was not wrong for being upset that Dean lied to him. They were both entitled to their feelings/thoughts.

    And the idea that Sam chose Amy over Dean is laughable. The situation with Ruby is not comparable to the Amy mess. Sam didn’t choose Amy over Dean. Sam was upfront with Dean and explained why he let Amy go. He didn’t lie to Dean.

    I find it funny that the same posters who think the Sam/Dean relationship is creepy and all around horrible are the sam people criticizing Sam for daring to leave Dean’s presence without Dean’s express permission?!?!

    *** DISCLAIMER – I love the relationship btw the brothers and have no problem with either brother at this time in the show. ***

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 5, 2012 @ 4:56 am

  612. I watched Point of No Return the other day and I bring it up because I think that was a crucial moment in the brothers’ relationship. After all the hurt and mistrust in season 4, we have Sam showing respect and trust in Dean to make the right call. And although it was dicey for a second, Dean did it. And that leads into Swan Song, where Dean lets Sam make the call. I think that was the turning point and when they were back in it together.

    from Point of No Return

    DEAN:…I’m gonna say yes anyway. And I will. I’ll do it. Fair warning.
    SAM:No, you won’t. When push shoves, you’ll make the right call.
    DEAN:You know, if tables were turned…I’d let you rot in here. Hell, I have let you rot in here.
    SAM:Yeah, well…I guess I’m not that smart.
    DEAN:I—I don’t get it. Sam, why are you doing this?
    SAM:Because… you’re still my big brother.

    and later

    DEAN:Honestly? The damnedest thing. I mean, the world’s ending. The walls are coming down on us, and I look over to you and all I can think about is, “this stupid son of a bitch brought me here.” I just didn’t want to let you down.
    SAM:You didn’t. You almost did. But you didn’t.
    DEAN:I owe you an apology.
    SAM:No, man. No, you don’t.
    DEAN:…I mean, hell, if you’re grown-up enough to find faith in me…the least I can do is return the favor. So screw destiny, right in the face. I say we take the fight to them, and do it our way.

    Comment by jace — June 5, 2012 @ 5:31 am

  613. Jace–Yes! My favorite moment in season 5. Sam willing to risk his life and Dean’s on the brotherly bond, and Dean acknowledging that that bond is for him impossible for him to break. And most of all, Dean apparently determined to stop wallowing in confusion and with Sam screw all the angel and demon plans. That was my Dean and Sam.

    Comment by CaseyT — June 5, 2012 @ 6:48 am

  614. I hope all this talk about Edlund leaving is bull since he is the only good writer left on the show since kripke is absent and shiban is long gone. i’m ok with carver running the show but they are gradually stripping the show beyond recognaition of it’s original self.

    with that said I like reoccuring co-stars like castiel, crowely, and the like it’s like an occasional pump of fresh blood. I’m far to adhd to be stuck with having to see only sam and dean over and over and over again. having just the two of them is a bit like “waiting for godot”

    Comment by dean grimly — June 5, 2012 @ 9:50 am

  615. beth w, Katie, Sarah, and Lisa 1 – I don’t think the issue is Sam being angry or arguing with Dean. It’s Sam stomping off in a huff. Even weeks later he wasn’t prepared to reunite when they met in the psychic town. Dean had to push the issue to gain a reconciliation.

    If Sam wants to be angry let him rant the way he used to but ending the relationship with his brother over a lie is ridiculous. Did Dean walk away from Sam when he was constantly lying and sneaking around? Dean stuck by Sam in the face of all that lying. Doesn’t Dean deserve the same consideration from Sam? Especially after Sam went behind Dean’s back and stole the Impala leaving Dean worried sick about him for days.

    Sam had to do it on his own, sure but why not let Dean know he’s alive and in control instead of refusing to answer the phone. No Sam’s behavior was very bad in all this and one punch in the nose was a very mild reaction. As Orly said Dean hasn’t hit Sam as often as you think. Twice is all I remember. Perhaps once or twice more that I don’t recall at the moment.

    (Dean beat the crap out of souless Sam whom he didn’t him of as his brother and who let him be turned into a Vampire. It doesn’t count as beating “Sammy”.)

    Whether Sam stomped off because Dean lied to him, didn’t have faith in his judgment, or because Dean killed Amy it was unjustifiable.

    Sam once again went behind Dean’s back, ran off “with the Impala” and left him worrying at a time when he was hallucinating. He then uses the ‘we’re both freaks so you have to trust her or you don’t trust me’ card making killing or not killing Amy all about him. All Sam’s actions warranted a lack of trust in his judgement not to mention leaving a people eating monster alive. My God he actually justified serial killing!!!!

    The only thing that makes season 4 relevant to this incident is that in the face of Sam’s lies, deceit and betrayal Dean never abandoned him. In point of fact he never stopped trying to save Sam. Yet Dean goes behind Sam’s back and kills a monster then doesn’t tell him about it and in Sam’s eyes it’s justifiable cause to end the partnership and for all tense and purposes disown his brother. Who was it that called Dean a hypocrite? If he’s angry fine but perspective people.

    Sarah isn’t John Wayne Gacy a monster, or Ted Bundy or Gary Ridgway the Green River Killer (America’s most paleolithic serial killer, convicted of 48, confessed to 71 suspected of 90+) monsters? Most would say yes and many would agree that their executions were justified. But it’s alright to murder four people to feed their brains to your child? Would it be alright for me to murder four people, one of them your loved one, to procure a heart for my dying daughter who needs one? Some how I don’t think you would want me to walk away from a court room scot free for that nor would anyone else.

    beth w, how Emma is in any way comparable to Amy I don’t know? She was threatening to kill Dean and he was holding her at bay trying to convince her she didn’t have to kill. What Sam saw when he burst in was Dean holding Emma at gun point nor did he lower his gun when she went into her help me routine with Sam. In all this where did Sam get the idea Dean would let her kill him? In the few seconds he didn’t act did he see compassion in Dean’s eyes? If he did that doesn’t mean Dean would let her kill him. The idea is absurd? Where Sam gets the nerve to call Dean a hypocrite for trying to talk the girl out of becoming a murder I don’t know. Dean killed a monster that had four murders to her credit while Sam shot a monster who had killed no one (intent is not a crime punishable by death). They had already established that you don’t kill unless they do first. So how is Dean a hypocrite? How are the situations comparable? And finely did Dean get a few pokes in during season 4 over Sam’s lying and keeping secrets?

    Orly, I think the raising of Lucifer issue is resolved but agree Sam choosing Ruby is not. Sam agreed it was a big mistake but then in “Fallen Ideals” he claimed Dean’s actions were in part responsible for his choice. That is crap when you consider he had a sexual relationship with her before Dean even came back and was sneaking off to see her the very next day after Dean returned. It ‘s even more disturbing when you consider she said she wished she could watch Dean roast in hell the night he was killed. Sam’s inability to take responsibility for his actions while condemning Dean for much lesser crimes is hypocrisy of the highest order however I think it is more a problem of the writing than of the character.

    I believe by season five Kripke was fed up with the CW forcing their wishes on him, ie: sending Dean to hell, bringing in angels etc and I have little doubt that Sara had already been selected as his replacement. I see her hand in the efforts to exonerate Sam and put the blame on Dean. As so may have said, I believe Sara G has a problem with the Dean character or Ackles or both.

    No I don’t think it’s Sam so much as it’s the writing.

    Comment by Haley 56 — June 5, 2012 @ 11:14 am

  616. When you know everyone is going through SN withdrawal: old retired arguments that aren’t even relevant anymore are brought up once again just for the hell of it.

    Comment by Sara — June 5, 2012 @ 12:04 pm

  617. I’m sick of people treating Sam like he’s still the kid brother. SAM IS AN ADULT! He doesn’t need Daddy Dean’s permission to do what he wants. I relate to Sam the most because I’m the youngest and I know what it;s like to be controlled by an older sibling, always telling you what to do. I can understand why Sam rebelled against John, against Dean. What do you expect when you have everyone treating you like a freaking kid? Good on Sam for making his own decisions and going against Dean and John if he has to or wants to. Sam is free to screw up however he wants, HE’S AN ADULT and he’s not Dean’s little kid brother anymore that he can boss around and control. So get over it people and MOVE ON.

    Comment by Katie — June 5, 2012 @ 1:44 pm

  618. @Sara: Exactly. I’m so sick of it. This is especially apparent amongst Dean fans. They just can’t let things go. What Sam did is the freaking past. Get over it and move the hell on like adults.

    Comment by Katie — June 5, 2012 @ 1:46 pm

  619. @617 lolololololololololol. gawd thats funny.

    Comment by animal — June 5, 2012 @ 1:51 pm

  620. @ Haley 56 – I don’t disagree w/you that Sam was wrong to not answer Dean’s calls or his text messages. He should have spoken to Dean to let Dean know he was okay. Sam was wrong. I said that when the episode aired.

    However, I strongly disagree w/you that Sam had no right to be angry or upset when he learned the truth. He had every right to be upset. He has a right to his feelings, whatever those were re: the situation. If Sam felt he needed to leave, then that was his right. You don’t know how much I wanted Dean to ditch Sam after S&V aired. I would have been totally fine w/Dean going his own way for a week or two after that episode. But that’s not how Dean operates. Dean doesn’t leave; he hits. Sam doesn’t hit; he leaves.
    They are two different people w/completely different reactions when upset. Why is that a problem? Why must Sam be wrong? Why can’t they both just feel the way the feel?

    I don’t understand this idea that Sam was wrong to leave. He didn’t want to stay so he left. No, he didn’t call Dean that week and wasn’t too jazzed when Dean found him but the show didn’t bother to give us Sam’s perspective so who knows what Sam was thinking.

    I do know that it is wrong to put a timetable on someone else’s anger/feelings. Sam had a right to still be angry if he wanted to be. Again, the story was crap so it was never really clear to me why Sam was angry.

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 5, 2012 @ 1:54 pm

  621. @619: Get over yourself. You’re a real wise guy, you know that?

    Comment by Katie — June 5, 2012 @ 2:14 pm

  622. I think some fans just expect Sam to be completely submissive to Dean. He’s not allowed to disagree, he’s not allowed to get angry, he’s not allowed to go off on his own. He’s not a teenager he’s a grown man. Sneaking out doesn’t exist when you’re pushing 30. So Sam is suppossed to do every Dean wants and never upset him? Excuse Sam for being independent and thinking for himself. Bottom line he deserves to be treated as an adult not a child. I don’t know why fans think it’s acceptable for him to be treated like that.

    Comment by Lilli — June 5, 2012 @ 2:37 pm

  623. Sam compared killing Emma to killing Amy. He said Dean’s own words back to him. That’s apparently the lesson of Amy. You always kill the monster. He was terrified that Dean wasn’t going to able to and that Dean would die in the process. “But just don’t – don’t get killed.”

    There’s no way Emma wasn’t going to kill just as there is no way Amy’s son is not going to kill, just as there was no way the guy from Metamorphosis was not going to kill. BTW, the writers are so inconsistent on that point. They are working with Meg now. But since she promises to be good, it’s cool.

    No one said beating RoboSam equals beating Sammy. We didn’t like RoboSam so much.

    Dean did leave Sam. That’s what Free to Be you and me was all about. Sam said that he didn’t trust himself and Dean agreed. Then later Sam asked to come back and Dean said no they were better apart. Dean also took off in 99 Problems and Point of No Return to go do what he thought was best against better advice.

    I agree with you about the writing in Fallen Idols. Some of Dean’s dialogue in there is cringey and even cruel. “Ah, maybe the apocalypse has got ‘em all hot and bothered. Yeah, well, we all know whose fault that is. …Well I’m sorry, but it’s true.”

    I thought Sam’s motives were pretty clear in season 4 but then we get this:
    Dean, ONE (not the only) of the reasons I went off with Ruby…was to get away from you.
    It made me feel strong. Like I wasn’t your kid brother.
    Are you saying this is my fault?
    NO, IT’S MY FAULT. All I’m saying is that, if we’re gonna do this, we have to do it different, we can’t just fall into the same rut.

    Even so, Sam didn’t say it was Dean’s fault. He took responsibility for his own reactions.

    Anyway, after that they get all
    “the apocalypse was my fault,”
    “no, it was my fault.”
    “here Sam, drive the car.”

    Moving on…

    Comment by beth w — June 5, 2012 @ 2:37 pm

  624. I’ve read a lot of the replies. Maybe the fans should be writing the scripts and not the writers who actually get paid to do it.

    To put it briefly, I hope Mr Carver will capitalize fully on all the potentials of s4 s5 s6 and s7, and give us some great episodes for S8.

    Comment by mic35 — June 5, 2012 @ 3:16 pm

  625. @604

    Sam did tell dean, but dean was cleary upset about his amazon daughter being killed. Amy was very different than Emma, obviously and Madison as well, from Heart. She had no control and had to be killed. Amy was killing sick bastards, rapists to help her son. She had a job that prevented her from having to do that too for herself. And Dean then lying to him and going off to murder the mom and leave the kid, wtf? What’s the kid supposed to do? I doubt any place will hire him, so he can have access to dead bodies. He will have to kill, to live, and then if does he will eventually come after Dean. Amy could been have left, but its the way Dean is, everything is black and white, and she had to be killed.

    Comment by katie — June 5, 2012 @ 3:48 pm

  626. I wonder if in season 8 ..Dean runs into Amy in purgatory or into Amy’s son killing…people to feed?

    Comment by ozzie — June 5, 2012 @ 3:56 pm

  627. Amy was a human, eating monster. Of course Dean couldn’t leave her alive. I’m not sure if he should have left her kid alive as well, but as he hadn’t killed anyone yet (Dean did tell him if he killed humans he would hunt him). I just wished Dean had told Sam what he had planned to do. Emma had to die as well. She was planning to kill Dean all along, but Dean wasn’t falling for her “woe is me act”. I believe he’d would of killed her if Sam hadn’t. He was trying to give her a chance not to kill. The Amy episode was one of my least favorites. Having Sam hooking up with a monster again was showing Sam in a bad light. I wish that episode was never written. I hope Dean and Sam never let a human killing, eating, blood sucking, monster live no matter how they may feel about so called monster. If they had to kill Madison of course Amy had to die as well.

    Comment by twinster — June 5, 2012 @ 4:22 pm

  628. I absolutely had no sympathy for Amy once it was clear what she was doing. I did feel terrible for Madison (she had no clue what she was doing). That was one monster that had me hurting when she was killed (even though I knew she had to be). That episode still makes my tear up.

    Comment by twinster — June 5, 2012 @ 4:26 pm

  629. @twinster How exactly is letting Amy go hooking up with a monster again?

    Comment by Lilli — June 5, 2012 @ 4:27 pm

  630. For those of you arguing that Sam is a grown-up and should be able to make his own decision, I might just point out that every time Sam has been alone, as he is at the end of S7, his attempts at independence have backfired.

    Dean goes to Hell, Ruby fills the void, Sam has sex, and Luci is released.

    S6, time jump, Sam hunts with the Campbells all by his soulless self.

    Sam did earn his big boy pants in S5 (PoNR particularly) and Dean went along with it (SS). Where did that get Sam? Soulless, which meant he lost. Losing is not redemption.

    Then, under SG’s tenure as showrunner, she regresses Sam back to his youngest-in-the-family sense of entitlement and regresses Dean to being all about Sam — until she turned her attention to all about support characters, because she didn’t have a clue as to how to carry on with the brothers.

    The past is what it is, and nothings going to change that. I am hoping that in S8, Sam does get some permanent and lasting grown-up ‘wisdom’, i.e., some character growth that isn’t immediately taken away from him.

    I hope that Dean is done with the go-nowhere emoting. I want him to have an active arc and I want him to be a badass hunter, not living and revolving around Sam only.

    Comment by Sheri — June 5, 2012 @ 4:28 pm

  631. you know all of us should send the video that jensen did for yellow fever-eye of the tiger and send it to the cw heads and to the spn writers and tell them this is what we want both winchesters to have again-the eye of the tiger and we want a story about the words that are in the song. and we want them in the impala-we want dean to call the impala baby and have his moment with her. we want sam to stop being a hissy fitter and be a man again. (sorry sam fans-i also hate when he gets mad and runs off. i mean he told dean that he was wrong every time he did it-but he still is doing it.-well the writers are making him do it.) when dean left it wasn’t for selfish reasons it was for the better good i guess you can say. not because he was mad at sam. -anyway i love both brothers and i want them the hunting winchesters again not the woosy brothers. alot of “i wanting on this sight anymore. hopefully carver knows how to story tell for the winchester brothers not an angel like the last 2 seasons.

    Comment by animal — June 5, 2012 @ 4:44 pm

  632. @ Lilli – I couldn’t agree more. Sam “sympathized” w/Amy and her plight. He did not “hook up” w/her.

    I’ve been rewatching the show. I’m on Season 2 and in one episode Sam tells Dean that the decisions they make are supposed to be “hard.” It’s not supposed to be a B/W type of situation. They’re supposed to think about all the consequences, etc. In the case of Amy, Sam listened to her and gave her the benefit of the doubt. He honestly believed she wouldn’t kill again. For whatever reason, Sam identified w/her.

    Yes, I think Amy should have been killed along w/her kid, but I have ZERO problem w/Sam having a different opinion. That is okay. It doesn’t mean he’s choosing a monster over Dean or that he’s hooking up w/a monster. He just has a different opinion on a monster just like in the past.

    @ Sheri – Sam made bad decisions one time when he and Dean were apart. That was in Season 4, and while I think it was a pretty poor explanation for Sam hanging w/the demon who lied to him the previous year, we were told that Sam was very depressed and suicidal when he made those decisions. Why was he depressed and suicidal? B/c his brother died.

    I haven’t seen any other evidence that Sam can’t take care of himself when he and Dean are apart. Soulless Sam doesn’t count. Sam seemed fine when Dean found him in “The Mentalists.”

    Sam’s horrible behavior occurred in one season four years ago. I see no other evidence that he’s a horrible brother.

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 5, 2012 @ 4:44 pm

  633. Let me offer a counter-opinion.

    Amy did have to be killed. She had no right to decide who was worthy of living and who deserved to be sacrificed to her son. Yes, her son is in a bad position, but Dean’s choices were to kill him without giving him a chance to make his own choices about how he wants to live or to allow his mother to continue to murder people she thinks are less worthy of life than her son. It’s a bad choice either way, but he is allowed to make his own choice.

    We only saw her kill one bad guy–we have no way of knowing that her other victims were all just as bad. What else was she going to tell Sam? Maybe she was telling the truth. Maybe she was telling herself what she felt like she had to in order to rationalize her murders. The drunk man, for example, could have just as easily been climbing into his car to sleep it off, but Amy wasn’t going to give him a chance to make that choice. She decided he didn’t deserve to live, and Sam stopped her from murdering him.

    I completely agree that the way Dean went about killing Amy was wrong. He shouldn’t have snuck around behind Sam’s back. He shouldn’t have lied. But Amy was a monster. She was a murderer. She should not have been allowed to kill others, either through rationalized vigilanteism or convenience. If her son chooses that path, that’s his choice and he may well have to face the consequences one day, just as Amy did.

    Comment by yeah — June 5, 2012 @ 4:46 pm

  634. @Sheri So he doesn’t deserve to be treated as an adult because you think he makes bad decisions? I mean…really??? That’s no excuse to treat a grown man like a 12 year old. It doesn’t matter what decisions he makes on his own, he’s still entitled to make them. He has those rights.

    I don’t think Dean does well on his own either. He only went to lisa and ben because SAM TOLD HIM TO and even then he suffered from depression and he made a demon deal to get Sam back. It seems neither brother does well on their own but that doesn’t mean that they don’t deserve to be out on their own. Whether you think they make bad decisions on their own, it doesn’t really matter. That’s not the issue. I don’t think the brothers should be split up but Sam certainly should be treated as an adult.

    Comment by oz — June 5, 2012 @ 4:47 pm

  635. Wow, this thread is moving fast. I agree with you, twinster.

    I don’t see the basis for “Everyone expects Sam to be the little brother” just because Dean doesn’t agree with something Sam thinks. By that token you could also play the “Dean always has to give into Sam” card everytime Sam disagrees with something Dean thinks. I blame Fallen Idols (an episode I loathe) for telling us that the boys’ partnership never worked before, and since they really haven’t changed how they interact since then, we end up with this stalemate.

    These are two independent men, and they are going to disagree sometimes. They’re also going to fall into their brotherly archetypes sometimes–people do, even after they grow up. They’ve both made bad decisions. Yes, Sam made some terrible ones, but even after that we’ve seen Dean follow his lead and suggestions at times. Sometimes he doesn’t. Sometimes Sam follows Dean’s lead and suggestions, and sometimes he doesn’t. That seems like the give-and-take of an adult relationship to me.

    Comment by yeah — June 5, 2012 @ 4:54 pm

  636. Oh, and to clarify–I am agreeing with twinster’s post re: the Amy situation, as it basically said what I said before I could type it all out!

    Comment by yeah — June 5, 2012 @ 5:03 pm

  637. It’s no longer enjoyable watching the brothers hunt together, IMO. They are far too different on an individual basis, they don’t communicate properly, never mind enough, for two people who supposedly love and care about each other as much as the writers claim they do, and they just keep on hurting on each other in the same, tired ways, neither one growing beyond the same things that plagued the relationship from Day One and that have now made the relationship simply static and boring in a storyboard sense. If Carver doesn’t want to effect any further/better changes in the brothers’ relationship, then I hope that he will allow them to move on to new, different, and hopefully more interesting relationships with other characters. And yes, it would and could still be Supernatural, IMO-the brothers just, and finally at long last, each coming into their own, both as hunters and individual human beings.

    Comment by Sarah2 — June 5, 2012 @ 5:34 pm

  638. Lilli, I didn’t mean Sam hooking up with Amy as hooking up with a girlfriend kinda thing. I meant it as a friendship. Friendship or not, he still has a knack for befriending monsters. He knew very well that she was killing humans to help her son.

    Comment by twinster — June 5, 2012 @ 6:04 pm

  639. Ok, now I’m thinking about Max Miller. He killed 2 people and Sam was trying to help him right up until he offed himself. What in the world would they have done with Max if he hadn’t killed himself? Killed him? I see Sam’s sympathy for Max and Amy as similar.

    Comment by beth w — June 5, 2012 @ 6:15 pm

  640. @ 639 I agree with Sam having a similar sense of sympathy/kinship with both Amy and Max. Max pretty much had to kill himself in a narrative sense, because he was still a human, and at that point show hadn’t had Sam or Dean kill an evil human. Ironically, this season they both did. I think Sam was consistent in sympathizing with Amy and Max because of their circumstances, and Dean was consistent in protecting their future victims above all else.

    Comment by yeah — June 5, 2012 @ 6:34 pm

  641. I don’t think the problem is that Sam feels empathy for characters like Amy and Max. They both had terrible situations in their life, and they were both pitiable in their way. I think Dean (and fans’) issue comes from the idea that their circumstances/situations are placed above their victims’ lives. Amy killed her mother for Sam and “bad” people for her son, so she should be allowed to kill without impunity. Max’s uncle and father were abusive, so it’s okay for him to play judge, jury, and executioner not only on them, but widening his circle to his stepmother, whose crime was inaction. We don’t know who all Amy killed and if they all “deserved” it, and we don’t know whether Max’s killing would have ended there. He could have easily widened his circle again, including teachers who didn’t notice, police officers who didn’t help, the neighbors who knew what was going on but never called. At some point Amy and Max’s circumstances can’t override other people’s right to live.

    Wow, that was fun. Thank you for introducing this comparison, beth w. It was interesting to think about how they were alike and why they both ultimately had to meet their fates. You could even include a character like Emma on this list–her circumstances were terrible, but ultimately Dean (and her other future victims) took precedence and her fate had to be the same as Amy’s.

    Comment by yeah — June 5, 2012 @ 6:42 pm

  642. I just find it hypocritical for people to demand Sam be treated as an adult while still insisting that Dean clean up his mess like he’s Sam’s parent. It’s always “how dare Dean not being more understanding” and “Dean just needs to do what Sam wants” and “Dean is just in the way.”

    After hearing how Dean “fails” Sam all the damn time, is it really a surprise that some Dean fans are so turned off by the constant drum beat of how Dean is a failure at caretaking that they find both the relationship and the caretaking to be something they no longer want.

    I actually saw people SALIVATING over the prospect of Dean kissing Sam’s butt in apology then were furious Dean actually spoke up for himself in The Mentalists. THEN they keep claiming they’re bi-bro. They wanted Dean to fail so Sam could chastise him.

    Comment by ORLY — June 5, 2012 @ 6:58 pm

  643. @ 634: I think Dean does treat Sam as an adult, but I don’t always see Sam acting as an adult. Stomping off in snit-fits is not grown-up behavior.

    What I am saying is that the writers have done a great disservice to the Sam character over the years, and that is aside from the fact that the character was pretty boxed in right from the beginning of the series.

    We had a kid that stomped off to college. No problem there, except that for unexplained reasons, he had zero contact with a brother that he was supposed to live or die for.

    From the very beginning, we had a 22-year old who supposedly was raised in his brother’s hip pocket, yet it showed very little knowledge to the inner-workings of Dean. Little things like he was surprised that Dean got along with kids (Dead in the Water, 1.03 or 1.04 (I think), or read. We had a young adult who only went with his brother because his girlfriend was murdered and he was filled with revenge. We had Sam stomping off to find John in S1, Scarecrow, and and on through S7 with the Amy thing.

    I’m saying that despite the Luke Skywalker Sam and Han Solo Dean (as Kripke always said was how he envisioned the characters) that the writers have never seemed to let Sam learn from his lessons and Sam’s character has been damaged because of that, despite how hard both Kripke and Gamble tired to shove Dean in the background.

    I’m saying that I don’t care whether the brothers are together or working with other support (not recurring) characters separately — and I actually prefer Dean to be with other support characters — I want the show to be about the Winchesters, I want a badass Dean, I want equal storylines for both characters, and I want a coherent story.

    Comment by Sheri — June 5, 2012 @ 7:02 pm

  644. You’ll have to excuse me for not wanting to partake in this conversation by irrational haters who merely want to hate on a character on stir up his fans. It’s not intelligent discussion. Let me know when some of you want to talk to something that’s actually worthwhile. Some just want to hate him no matter what. I mean really can you talk about anything else for a change? It’s really annoying. Bye folks.

    Comment by Sara — June 5, 2012 @ 7:03 pm

  645. No one has said that they hate Sam or Dean in awhile. They would just like to see some better writing for Sam’s character. Some growth (same for Dean). Just because someone is disappointed in how Sam behaves sometimes, does not mean they hate the character. I have always said that I prefer Dean, but love Sam, too. I don’t want to see a show that just focuses on Dean. I want a show that focuses on both brothers equally, because those two kinda need each other (even if apart). Now if someone is calling Sam pathetic then I’d say that sounds like “haters”, like some have said of Dean and Sam awhile back on this thread. There have been times when I haven’t been too happy with Dean’s behavior but it doesn’t mean I have stopped loving his character. No one has been irrational in a long time on this thread.

    Comment by twinster — June 5, 2012 @ 7:28 pm

  646. @643 That’s precisely right. Sam isn’t shown as knowing Dean and he’s still doing what he did even before Season One.

    He ran away from home when he was a kid and didn’t notice that Dean got punished big time for his stunt while he had a great time. I can’t see that he’s changed much from that thoughtless kid who thinks that he can run off whenever he likes without any thought that Dean might suffer the consequences or that Dean might finally get fed up and not want him back. And that makes Sam very much a big man child like one of those Adam Sandler characters except grumpier.

    Comment by ORLY — June 5, 2012 @ 7:31 pm

  647. @ Twinster – Sara’s point is it’s obvious that some just hate Sam. Do they write, “I hate Sam?” No, but the hate for him is obvious in their comments.

    We’ve spent what . . . 200+ comments discussing all the ways Sam is wrong in every single thing he does. It becomes silly at some point.

    Sam was wrong to be upset w/Dean in SF. Sam was wrong to not kill Amy. Sam was wrong to sympathize/empathize with Amy. Sam was wrong for going to college. Sam was wrong to not call Dean while in college. Sam was wrong for wanting to separate from Dean after Slash Fiction. Sam is wrong for what he says to Dean. Sam is wrong when he teases Dean. Sam is wrong for his feelings. Sam is just wrong. Everything about him is wrong. He never does anything right. Okay . . . . That’s all I’m getting from some posters. No matter what . . . Sam is wrong.

    That’s the main point of some of these posts like claiming Dean has to clean up Sam’s messes. Umm . . . when did Sam ever ask Dean to clean up his mess, and what was the poster even talking about? Sam took full responsibility for the Apocalypse. His words: “I let him out. I got to put him back in.” Sam never told Dean it was Dean’s responsibility to “fix” Sam’s mess. From Lucifer Rising, Sam was taking responsibility.

    And who was salivating over Dean apologizing to Sam? And I want to know if the people who feel Sam is so horrible and immature for leaving a situation when he’s upset think it’s perfectly okay and mature for Dean to punch Sam whenever he feels it’s appropriate? I’m sure they’ll come in and argue how it’s so much better for Dean to punch Sam than for Sam to walk away from Dean.

    Ugh. It’s pointless – to some of us – to continue to discuss Sam w/those who hate him. They’ve hated him since Season 1, and nothing’s going to change that. Like Sara, I guess I’ll be back when the conversation has moved from all the evils Sam has committed since the Pilot.

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 5, 2012 @ 8:00 pm

  648. Katie @617 – Sam is perfectly with in his right to leave if he chooses. That isn’t the issue. When one has a partner in a life threatening occupation one doesn’t just take off without explanation, (especially taking said partner’s car) after admitting to being mentally unstable and almost shooting said partner. Then refusing to take his justifiably concerned partners calls or even returning his texts to say he wasn’t dead and that Lucifer wasn’t driving is beyond inconsiderate. What Sam did was dangerous, cruel and selfish and above all anything but mature.

    In season 1 Sam and Dean disagreed, fought and Sam left. I have no problems with that. In season two a demon took him, not his fault. But from season three on Sam started taking off without a word to Dean. Sam had been possessed once and kidnapped by Azazel. When such things can happen you don’t leave your partner wondering what the hell’s going on much less your brother.

    His excuse in “The Girl Next Door” he didn’t want to fight with Dean. His way of dealing with his aversion to confrontation is to leave Dean sweating his way into an ulcer? In my opinion, considering Sam’s irresponsible and above all childish behavior Dean’s reaction was restrained. Sam wants to be treated like an adult, great, he can start acting like one.

    Katie you may identify with Sam because you’re the younger sibling and that’s fair but tell the truth about this particular situation. Who was the one getting jerked around here?

    Lilli @ 620, I say it’s not about being angry it’s about why he was angry. Adults deal with their feelings and with conflict. In seasons 1 and 2 they argued when they disagreed. That was healthy and productive and if you recall Dean didn’t win all the arguments.

    In “The Girl Next Door” Sam’s actions where selfish and cruel and his expectations of Dean were beyond unrealistic. He said he didn’t respond the calls and texts because he wanted to deal with this on his own. Fine say that in a text that so Dean will know he’s not dead in a ditch or driving around with Lucifer behind the wheel. In the face of such behavior Sam was still given the opportunity to present his case. After telling Dean about his past with Amy he explains she was killing to save her son and she’s finished then say’s “Don’t trust her trust me.” Given Sam’s fragile mental state how is Dean supposed to respond to that? That too was cruel and selfish and Sam should never have put Dean in the position in the first place.

    Now back to “Slash Fiction”. When Sam admits he knows about Amy Dean try’s to explain and Sam won’t let him.

    Dean- Listen Sam.

    Sam- No. Don’t lie to me again. Don’t even talk to me. Yah, I can’t. Know what Dean. I can’t.

    Dean- You can’t what?

    Sam- I can’t talk to you right now. Dean I can’t even be around you right now.

    Dean- Okay So…..?

    Dam- So I think you should just go on without me. Go.

    Dean- Alright sorry Sam.

    Sam was worried about Dean’s state of mind after what Cas had done so he kept secrets and lied about his mental state which resulted in him almost shooting Dean and driving off with “Lucifer behind the wheel” during a major crises. He expected and received understanding and forgiveness. Dean lied and kept a secret after the very emotionally unstable Sam gave him the “Don’t trust her trust me” ultimatum and he not only does not receive under standing and forgiveness he isn’t given the opportunity to explain or defend himself. This isn’t refusing to be bossed around and it sure as hell isn’t mature. It is the actions of a spoiled petulant child in a self-righteous temper making a very public display of his hypocritical nature. And Dean just put up with it.

    What angers me is that is not Sam or Dean. For season 7 their personalities were adjusted in accordance with the needs of the story. This was beyond bad righting and worse it was pointless.

    beth w Can we be sure Emma would have killed? In Blood Lust” it was established that they didn’t kill monsters that weren’t killing people yet Sam burst in and shot a girl who hadn’t killed anyone. A girl who though she was holding an knife, did not attack him and was far from Dean who had a gun on her. She was not threat to anyone. Might she have killed someone or tried to kill Dean at a later time. Perhaps but at that point she was only guilty of intent and last time I checked that is not a crime punishable by death.

    Dean didn’t leave Sam, Sam said he didn’t trust himself and left Dean. Yes, Sam called and wanted back in but Dean refused because for the first time in since he was four he was free of responsibility for Sam and wasn’t eager to take up the burden again. In “The End” Dean decided that Sam still needed him that his brother kept him from loosing his humanity. None of this had anything to do with Dean dumping Sam.

    beth w almost a perfect quot from Fallen Idols”.

    Dean- Are you saying this is my fault?

    Sam- No it’s my fault. All I’m saying is that if we’re gonna do this we have to do it different. We can’t just fall into the same rut.

    The problem I have with this is Sam had become Ruby’s lover before Dean came back and was sneaking round and lying that very same night. He did eventually stop seeing her after “Metamorphosis” because he was afraid of what he might turn him into but went back to her at the end of “Criss Angel Is A Douchebag” declaring he wasn’t going to be hunting when he was old. So how does any of that have anything to do with being Dean’s little brother? Besides if he was pissed about being treated like the junior partner he should act like a man and have it out with Dean not run away to a demon to be flattered and told how great he was. Not just great but “…a better hunter than you, smarter, stronger than you’ll ever be. I can take out demons you’re too afraid to go near…”

    I see Sam’s actions having a lot to do with a life time of fear, and loss, with his life being manipulated by demons, with feeling powerless and wanting to take control of his life. I don’t think it had a lot to do with Dean and putting in that little bit at the end of “Fallen Idols” was a lousy piece of writing that made Sam look bad. Hell all of “Fallen Idols” was bad writing.

    I’ve stayed up past my bed time, night all.

    Comment by Haley 56 — June 5, 2012 @ 8:34 pm

  649. This site needs to be closed already.

    Comment by ozzie — June 5, 2012 @ 8:52 pm

  650. oops, I meant new episodes. Dang, wish there was an edit button!

    Comment by twinster — June 5, 2012 @ 9:03 pm

  651. Lisa1,

    I agree. I love to discuss the characters but all this assigning blame stuff makes it tough to have a conversation. They did what they did (as the plot directed) They had reasons that made sense to them at the time. Sometimes they regretted their actions. They made mistakes and did their best to make amends.

    Someone said on here recently that these characters are not written to be evil. They are written to have faults and weaknesses that drive the plot of the story. That’s the fun stuff to discuss. When we make sacred cows, that kills the fun of it right there. There is no point in conversing with those folks.

    Let’s face it, the guys don’t always handle everything right. Dean can be a jerk. Sam can be a jerk. Can we agree to forgive them for being human? But the characters are interesting to discuss to me anyway. Trying to look for patterns of behavior like Max and Amy and stuff like that is fascinating. (It helps when the writers are consistent)Why does Sam do what he does and make those decisions? Why does Dean?

    I guess I’ve been a bit more interested in Sam lately just because he hasn’t been so well defined. And also, just looking at the response of fandom to this character. We have fans salivating and feeling all sympathetic over blood-thirsty vampires and serial killers on other shows. Then we have Sammy Winchester who is just trying to save the world and he gets the most vile and hateful backlash because he what? screwed up, hurt Dean’s feelings? I don’t know but it’s fascinating and fun to argue the other side.

    Comment by beth w — June 5, 2012 @ 9:25 pm

  652. The problem is that Sam is a canon sacred cow and as long as he’s not getting his share of being called on his mistakes and screwups then I don’t care. As he long as he continues to run away and act that it’s Dean fault that he feels like a child or that his life sucks then I don’t have to like him.

    Sure that part’s not evil but I don’t have to find it mature or heroic or wonderful in the least, which I think the show often tries to claim it is. Crowley’s an ass but at least the show doesn’t try to convince me he’s not. I can enjoy assery as long as nobody pretends he’s not one.

    Sam is perfectly well defined. you just don’t like the fact that part of that definition is not very flattering. I’d probably be less hard on Sam if I didn’t constantly see people excuse things I KNOW they’d never forgive if it was any other character.

    I also really resent that the show thought that Dean trying to detox Sam was this horrible crime that Dean should be punished for. That was disgusting. Sam was the junkie under the sway of a demon yet Dean was the evil one for trying to get him off his drugs. I spit on that!

    Comment by ORLY — June 5, 2012 @ 10:19 pm

  653. Well, I must admit that I never saw that Dean was bad for trying to detox Sam off his demon blood fix. Any kind of detoxing of strong drug or addiction is really ugly. How else was he going to do it?

    I still really love and enjoy Sam’s character. Sometimes he makes mistakes, but there are plenty of times he makes the right decisions and shows Dean that he really cares for his big brother. I do enjoy my “heroes” to be flawed. Love Dean best, but there are time he doesn’t make the best choices either. Love him with all his mistakes.

    I’m hoping next season that there will be better writing for both brothers. Hopefully, season 8 will be the season that brings SPN back to it’s glory. I love the brothers together, fighting the fuglies. They don’t have to holding hands to show that they care for each other, or even say it with words. I saw plenty this last season where they cared about one another. You don’t have to be attached at the hips to show you love your sibling.

    The attacking of Sam’s character has kinda gone on way too long. I’d like to see more constructive reviews than character assassination. This is coming from a die hard Dean fan. All these kind of posts do is stir the pot and get people angry. Next thing you know we have a flame war going on. And then it just goes on and on with no end in sight.

    Seems like Dean has forgiven Sam for things of the past, and Dean has apologized to Sam numerous times as well. If they can forgive each other, why can’t the fans?

    As I posted earlier: Here is to season 8. May it bring a better story, plots, and brotherly relationship. Really looking forward to Season 8 and seeing Dean in Purgatory and Sam on Earth.

    Comment by twinster — June 5, 2012 @ 10:40 pm

  654. Geesh! Is it almost 3AM? I’ve got to get to sleep!

    Comment by twinster — June 5, 2012 @ 10:43 pm

  655. @ Beth, I’m fine with saying Sam was wrong in a certain situation. I feel like Sam made horrible, bad decisions in the 4th season. I honestly never agreed with those who thought Dean also made bad decisions. All Dean wanted was for his brother to not follow a demon or use his demon-given powers. All of that was completely rational to me.

    That said, I never started hating Sam because of Season 4. I didn’t like the apology in “Fallen Idols,” but I realized the writers weren’t interested in having Sam apologize to Dean for the personal betrayals though that’s something Sam would have done. I chalked it up to bad writing and moved on just as the characters did.

    Now some have lambasted and criticized Sam for years because of Season 4. I wish these posters would just admit to hating Sam and always hating him. This is a tv show. It’s perfectly ok to hate a character. Like you, I like discussing the characters but don’t wish to do that with someone who hates Sam. That hate is usually deep, long-lasting, and non-budging. It’s pointless because Sam will always be wrong no matter what he did; he always makes the wrong decision to those people. He’s never given the benefit of the doubt. Selfishness, arrogance, ignorance, stupidity, and cruelty are ALWAYS assigned to his actions. Nothing positive. It’s predictable at this point with some characters.

    I also find myself defending Sam more than Dean because Sam is usually the character being trashed. I’ve rarely seen Dean bashed. The most Dean bashing I saw was with that horrible Amy drama, and the only thing he did wrong there, IMO, was punch Sam in the face and lie to Sam about it. I had no issue with him killing Amy. That entire was dumb and not well-written so I don’t think it deserves much discussion. LOL!

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 6, 2012 @ 3:45 am

  656. I’m always confused at what people really want when they want “growth” “development.” Do they actually want Sam and Dean to resolve all their problems? Do they want Sam to become a amazingly sensitive guy to Dean’s problems–supportive and responsive in every way; for Dean to treat Sam as an equal adult and stop seeing himself as his Sam’s keeper? Do they want kickass Dean to settle in the suburbs with a good woman and have two kids, a dog, and a satisfying job; Sam to find happiness in great legal career in Silicon Valley? Dean to stop seeing moral questions as so black and white and adopt moral relativism? Sam to stop fretting over issues and rather than walking away to process things, be a guy who easily and quickly cuts through issues and reaches a quick stance on things? They could become such “close” brothers each sensitive and continuously thankful for the unconditional support of the other. I guess they’d end up texting and calling each other with supportive messages as each faces the problems in their lives. How utterly boring that would be!

    Not only would it be boring, it would be utterly false for any exploration of how humans and siblings go through life. The romantic notion that adult people change basically who they are and that all people actually end up in a nice Hollywood ending is nothing more than romantic claptrap. SPN’s strength is that it has not fallen in to those easy entertainment traps. The brotherly bond is compelling not because Dean and Sam are so compatible, loving, and sensitive to each other, but because it is maintained despite the fact that they are so different and sometimes insensitive to each other. Nor has the series had either Winchester get a personality transplant and be transformed into a different character through “growth.” (Although Sera tried to convert Dean into domestic-Dean; to a chorus of boos, I’d add.) It may be a romantic notion of teen girls that “oh! but I will change him” but that romantic stuff doesn’t lead to much except second marriages; personality transformation just doesn’t happen in real life.

    Let them “grow” around the margins: Sam show flashes of appreciation for the support Dean gives him and have Dean back-off the big-brother act toward Sam, but a series about two brothers locked in co-operation, unconditional love, and mutual sensitivity would be outlandishly unrealistic and boring to anyone over the age of 15. We don’t need a Disney version of SPN. I like my seemingly incompatible brothers working through their conflicting personalities and even wounds to each other because they are family. It’s the one depiction of real human life in a fantasy/sci-fi series that grounds the series in believability and makes it interesting and gives it something of value to say: that in the end family, for all its problems, makes us human.

    Comment by CaseyT — June 6, 2012 @ 4:48 am

  657. I agree that all of Dean and Sam’s problems can’t be resolved, CaseyT, though I feel bringing in domestic/romance plotlines into the conversation is a red herring. No one here is advocating that. I think the point is having the boys have the exact same conflicts with no resolution, only to repeat the cycle again, is getting redundant. I see no reason why the boys can’t learn to approach each other differently, while still falling into their archetype brother roles. I see no reason why they can’t fight without resorting to the same old plotlines. I think it’s giving the PTB a free pass to be repetitive to just shrug and say, “This is who they are, so you’re doomed to watch them fight/leave/punch each other over and over without any change.” How I interacted and fought with my siblings as a teenager is not the way I interact and fight with them now that we’re all adults. It doesn’t mean we’re now Disney characters. We just grew and changed as we got older–why wouldn’t Sam and Dean?

    Comment by yeah — June 6, 2012 @ 5:24 am

  658. Wow, I don’t see why having them actually learn something and change is considered “boring.” I find their current status quo really boring and makes them look bad that the same issues are still plaguing them. Sam still has this crazy inferiority complex that makes him take off when things don’t go his way and Dean takes the blame.

    THAT’S boring. And the insistence that they can’t have other relationships makes even more so because even if the main relationship couldn’t change, when the character’s other relationships can evolve it keeps the show from being boring but then they keep either killing the other characters or try to make any other relationship mirror the central one.

    I’ve seen some really lame couples at the center of shows with the stupid “will they, won’t they” or the most self-centered pieces of crap ever who only care about their so-called love. People want the same dynamics of crappy soapy love stories inserted into the series and it hurts the series.

    Comment by ORLY — June 6, 2012 @ 5:35 am

  659. I know that a lot of people have complained about the loss of a feeling that’s anything other than two co-workers working together just because they’re in the same business and not much more. “Epic Love story?” “Sacred?” Not so much. It radiates as much warmth as two guys who work at a construction site and happen to work in the same section but don’t have anything in common other than work.

    I know that tons of people flee their family and have been out of contact for decades so the whole “family, family, family” mantra feels like lazy PR.

    Comment by ORLY — June 6, 2012 @ 5:42 am

  660. A series needs a core. SPN has one. It needs to keep that in tact or it just becomes anything the latest writers or show runners want it to be. IMO people tune in and want something that is familiar, something that gives them a sense of continuity. The Winchester relationship is the core. It works, don’t fix it. What’s broken is the world they live in: it’s been virtually the same for four seasons.
    I’m not excusing the repetitive retread Sam-Dean plots. That’s a failure of imagination and lack of effort on the part of the writers. I would love to see new characters. I’d very much like Sam to have a character similar to the Castiel-Dean relationship.(Apologies Sheri, but I wouldn’t mind Sam or Dean having a real girlfriend.) I’d love to have both have separate stories–especially Dean. I don’t have to see them in the same motel room for 23 episodes. I want to see them together; I love their relationship and I want to see it, but exploring that relationship endlessly is unnecessary. Their relationship works, it’s the world they live in that needs to be rejuvenated and changed, not the brothers.
    My point is the way to rejuvenate the series is to change the plotlines with new characters and a new myth arc, bring in some new truly evil characters, some new characters we might like–take the emphasis off endlessly exploring the tiny mini-crises in the Dean-Sam relationship that are repetitive and tedious. Stop with this endless Sam is pouting and Dean’s depressed bit. Stop the endless soap line of whether Sam’s hurt Dean’s feelings or the opposite. The guys relationship is OK, it doesn’t need fundamental alteration; it’s not the problem.
    Get the series and its fans discussing the new creative arc, the dastardly villains, the ghastly horror, the challenges to the boys, their new non-Winchester relationships. IMO that’s what the series needs.

    Comment by CaseyT — June 6, 2012 @ 7:24 am

  661. Agreed Casey the problem is not the brothers. It’s highlighting guest stars, poorly executed storylines, and having the plot drive the characters instead of the other way around that is the problem. The writers don’t bother to show brotherly moments anymore, it doesn’t seem important to them. That doesn’t mean the brotherhood is boring or doesn’t work, it means teh writers are lazy and don’t understand what makes the show so special.

    IMO the brotherhood is fine. Is it perfect? No. But that’s what makes it real and relatable. I’m the youngest and my older brothers still treat me like the baby of the family and are very over protective. I like that I can identify with Sam. I also like that I can see my brothers in Dean. This is what people tune in for the human relationships and conditions.

    Are there issues? Yes. Do they need to be explored and hashed out over and over again? No. It isn’t picture perfect but it works.

    Comment by Sara — June 6, 2012 @ 7:49 am

  662. Yeah,@657, so very well put. Letting them grow and change does not have to mean becoming perfect. It doesn’t mean never disagreeing, never fighting, never have misunderstandings or conflict. That would be unrealistic and yes ORLY, boring.

    The problem I have with Sam is that by the end of season 5 (although here were a few bad moments) he had grown and matured, he had accepted responsibility (the comments at the end of “Fallen Idols” were inconsistent with other behavior and statements so I don’t count it) came to appreciate his brother and so forth. He was not perfect but he had evolved.

    In seasons 6 and 7 he, at some points, fell back on old bad habits jumping back and forth between petulant and selfish to caring and giving, from self absorbed and intolerant to selfless and open minded. He not only became a caricature of himself but a different version was used depending on what was needed at the time. The way he waxed and waned was illogical, unnatural, and very irritating. Many of the things he said and did that angered the Dean fans were not only out of character but irrational. Issues that would have been addressed and dealt with, had the Sam’s character developed naturallu where simply ignored, or swept under the carpet as some say.

    Likewise Dean was beyond comprehension. Right out of the gate he was unrecognizable. Sam’s dream of a normal life suddenly and inexplicably became his. It was said that when choosing a dream sequence in “Dream A Little Dream Of Me” in order to make it funny they picked something that was completely against character thus Sam had a sex fantasy about Bela and Dean’s dream sequence was a domestic fantasy with Lisa. It was never intended to define his character.

    The make over of his personality was so extreme and contradictory and the handling of it so rough and laughable it should have been obvious that domestic Dean was a path that never should have been taken. Once this was behind him Dean shifted from clumsy and mocked to kick ass hunter, between kind and caring of his friends and family to cold, distant and indifferent. He then fell into a depression that was never defined or explained and was so out of character that it was ridiculous. No Dean was never one to talk things out but neither was he one to mull over or wallow in matters of why and how or rial against what was, but was a practical person who dealt with what was in front of him, rolled with the punches and above all never quite. (deciding to saying yes to Micheal to save half the world rather than burning the whole planet isn’t quitting it’s choosing a rock rather than a hard place) Now it would seem Dean’s debilitating depression has vanished as mysteriously as it came.

    With their personalities so abruptly and completely changing and their behavior shifting from one extreme to another I have to ask, why didn’t Bobby have them both committed?

    Well Bobby was swinging and swaying himself starting with his statement that Dean was as close to happy as he had ever seen a hunter get. Dean sinking deeper into alcoholism while agonizing over his brother’s damnation is what Bobby calls happy? Knowing then as he does the very idea that Bobby would believe Dean could be anything other than faking happy while Sam is in the pit is beyond absurd.

    Bobby keeping Sam’s miraculous return from Dean should have warranted holy water in the beer and the silver test. If he passed them the next stop would have be a psych ward.

    This post has gone on far to long already so I will close with saying the only character who has not been made over beyond recognition half a dozen times was Crowley and notice he’s the only one that no one has a mountain of complaints about.

    We shouldn’t be condemning the characters for their unjust or inappropriate behavior but condemning the inexcusable way they have been abused and misused.

    Comment by Haley 56 — June 6, 2012 @ 10:26 am

  663. Great posts, CaseyT and Sara!

    The brotherhood is fine and has been fine for a long time now. It doesn’t require contrived, forced lame angst like “the Amy plot” to drive it.

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 6, 2012 @ 10:45 am

  664. @ CaseyT #656: I understand what you are getting at, Casey. In fact, if they would have had Dean go off the rails and Sam frantic to drag him back (after he got rid of the hellucinations), that would have provided the exact kind of tension I believe you are talking about. That’s what I wanted to happen, and the set-up was all there in what was given for that to happen.

    The problems Sera #661 points out, along with a lack of creativity, a propensity towards dark romance, a distain for the brothers’ relationship, and some sort of unknown issue with JA kept that from happening. Maybe a little Misha infatuation thrown in there — who knows.

    I still believe Carver can turn the show around, and I hope he does so by just starting fresh. I don’t even want all the ‘issues’ of the past addressed. In fact, I hope he ignores S6 and S7 altogether; pretends it never happened, like I am going to.

    Comment by Sheri — June 6, 2012 @ 11:34 am

  665. @ Haley #662: I just got a chance to read your post. Your description of both brothers characterization is exactly why most fans were unhappy with S6 and S7 and why 1.5 million viewers were lost under SG’s leadership. I also think there was a great deal of discontent behind the scenes.

    Neither brother has been written in character for two season; just used however a writer’s idea of a story needed them to be. I’m a 100% Dean girl, but I don’t like the Dean we’ve seen in two years. And, I don’t even know what to say about Sam. I don’t know now which Sam Sam is supposed to be.

    I certainly hope the characters get back some of their original personalities under Carver’s reign. From what I hear about Being Human, Carver does really well with characterization.

    Comment by Sheri — June 6, 2012 @ 1:57 pm

  666. Sera is no fan of Castiel. If she was, she would’ve used Misha as Dick and not someone else. I don’t get how anybody thinks she was a fan of his or the actor. I think the network overrode her and forced him back on the show.

    Whenever I see a push for it to be just about the brothers, it usually smells bad to me like this:

    “Uh oh, (whoever) is taking the spotlight from Sam. Quick, tell Dean fans he’s a threat to the show and talk about the epic bromance. Then once (whoever) is off the show, go back to the ‘Dean bad’ mantra!”

    Because it’s not about protecting Dean because most of the people who are pushing for it being just the two don’t bother saying squat when Dean is insulted or Dean’s storylines are suddenly forgotten or his characterization goes in the toilet. Oh, no they only talk about Dean WHEN they needs back-up for their own agenda then forget about him the second it doesn’t involve Sam.

    You can’t just turn back the clock. You can’t make the seen unseen or the heard unheard.

    I’m rooting for Jeremy but the last thing I want to see is for him to wave a magic wand and make things instantly cozy when too much crap went down and have it appear that Dean’s memories of the last seven years magically disappeared so he still thinks Sam is the stars, moon and the sun. The hell with that.

    Comment by ORLY — June 6, 2012 @ 6:43 pm

  667. @Orly:
    The Dean character has not been abused. That is my opinion. He has been the POV and the “doing” since Season 1. If it has been “all about Sam,” it was through Dean’s eyes. He has been the focus of Season 3 (was there any plot-line other than “Dean is going to Hell?”). The only episode that was Sam-centric (Sam doing the action), but “all about Dean” was Swan Song. For the first time, Sam did all of the “doing”, but it was “all about” Dean. Sam did what he did and won it for love of his brother. Season 6 worked Mr. A. almost to death. I don’t get the whole “Dean is abused” mantra.
    Still hate Castiel. Just say that at every opportunity.

    Comment by RS — June 6, 2012 @ 7:40 pm

  668. Well, I agree with you ORLY in that most (not all, but most) claiming to be bi-bro don’t give a crap about Dean’s character unless Sam’s story is threatened. I’ve said for a couple of years now that if the were truly bi-bro, they would be mad as hell that Dean’s stories have been repeatedly dropped like lead ballons.

    I don’t agree with you about Misha not being well-liked by SG. When Sam’s soulless story wasn’t working in S6 and there was a huge outcry about SG fangirling Sam, the story was given over to Cas. One would think that it would have been Dean, but even in S7, there was no story for Dean, and Sam’s was pathetic. I also think that the reason this season was given to guest stars is because of the stink of being called Becky Gamble by so many. Of course, I this is only my opinion and no one will ever know.

    I don’t think we’re going to get seven years magically waved away by Carver, and I don’t expect that we’ll get Dean just being all about Sam. Rather, if everything that I’ve heard about Carver pans out, I think we’ll get a story each for the three main characters (the third being Cas, because I think it Carver was in on the decision to keep him around — disappointed as I am).

    Everything I’ve ever heard about Carver and Being Human is that each of the three characters are fully developed with their own story. I’ve not read one negative comment anywhere with respect to characterization.

    Comment by Sheri — June 6, 2012 @ 8:01 pm

  669. If someone is not upset about Dean’s storylines on the show, that doesn’t mean they aren’t genuinely bi-bro or that they don’t genuinely like Dean. It may just mean they have a different opinion than you, Sheri. That’s all. What you hate, they may love. Not all Dean fans feel he’s been slighted, disrespected, or neglected in the show. Some are happy w/his role on the show. Some are happy w/his arc. It all depends on that person enjoys about the show and what he/she wants to see.

    I think people need to stop trying to define what a “real” Dean fan thinks or what a “real” Sam fan or what a “real” Castiel fan thinks. Everyone is different and has his/her own opinion. Everyone wants different things from the show. I know plenty of Dean fans who did not feel like Adam “stole” Dean’s story or that Dean had no role in SS. I’m one of them, but I’m referring to people who favor Dean over Sam. I favor neither brother, but those people who favor Dean were happy w/the way Season 5 and SS played out. Other Dean fans were not happy. Again, it all depends on the person.

    As far as Dean’s story this year – it sucked, IMO, but then I thought the entire season was horrible. I liked Season 6 myself.

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 6, 2012 @ 8:45 pm

  670. @667 “For the first time, Sam did all of the “doing”, but it was “all about” Dean. Sam did what he did and won it for love of his brother.”

    you seriously believe that argument? It’s really nonsense. If Sam was in a coma during Swan Song and Dean was waving around a magic sword that destroyed both angels, I am so very sure that you would not be going “Dean did it all for Sam so therefore it was all about Sam.”

    I’m not talking about screen time. A potted plant can be onscreen 100% of the time but if it doesn’t do something, it doesn’t matter. They felt free to use him to keep viewers but didn’t bother to do anything good with his story lines. I’d take Dean being in only half the episodes for a storyline that was ten times better that he got to keep to the very end. I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

    Comment by ORLY — June 6, 2012 @ 10:22 pm

  671. @ 669: If you will read the first line of my Post #668, you will see that I said “not all, but most”.

    There are some, like you, that see Dean’s stories as just fine. I will admit that I fail to see how that is possible, unless they are fine with Dean being all about Sam, or fine with Dean having equal screen time because he is a ‘pretty potted plant’ (I laughed, ORLY), or fantasize about Dean falling in love (insert fan for actress), having babies, and cooking out with the neighbors.

    I have read the posts where some believe that Sam overcame Lucifer in Swan Song to ‘save his brother.’ I don’t get that at all either. Sam jumped in the crappy CGI hole to atone — to get redemption — for letting Luci out. It had nothing to do with saving Dean — what did Dean need saving from?

    Dean has had one purpose in seven years, and that was to go to Hell in S3’s 13-week shortened writers’ strike season. (EK has stated that Sam’s story was shortened because of the writers’ strike.) And why was it necessary to get Dean into Hell? To move Sam’s story forward so that he could end up jumping into the bad CGI hole and save the world.

    As it turned out, with all of Dean’s two-year arc being thrown out with the introduction of Adam, there was really no need to even have introduced Dean as Michael’s Sword, Michael’s vessel, the righteous man, the man who killed an archangel. There wasn’t even a reason for the introduction of Cas and the angel story. If JA had not had a contract that had to have been honored, Dean could have remained in Hell, Sam could have discovered Adam all by himself, and Sam could have done exactly what he did in Swan Song without Dean being in the show.

    I do not have a problem that some, like you, claim to like what the show has given Dean’s character. I am not:

    Dean is Michael’s Sword, except that changed to Dean is a vessel.

    Dean is a vessel, except that was Adam or anybody in the history of the Winchester bloodline.

    Dean has PSTD, implied only in two episodes (It’s a Great Pumpkin and Wishful Thinking), then it’s dropped.

    Dean is the righteous man, except that is some random nun.

    Dean loves Lisa/Ben, except that Sam came to drag him back into hunting for a reason that was never explained (along with why Grandpa Shady seemed to want Dean hunting too).

    Dean is the only human able to kill an angel and look into the grace of an angel without his eyes burning out, except any random demon with an angel blade can do that, too.

    Dean, upon returning from Hell, is the only human able to hear hellhounds, except that doesn’t mean anything.

    Dean is the only human to have gone to all five realms, except that apparently means nothing, as does the Servant of Heaven, being marked by a fairie, being immune to a Horseman (Famine).

    Dean suffers from alcoholism and depression, except that goes nowhere.

    Dean died, was turned into a vampire, and received the alpha vamp’s ‘vision.’ That was a cool scene, but it didn’t mean anything. It certainly wasn’t mentioned in There Will Be Blood when they hooked up with the alpha vamp again.

    Dean is Death’s Intrepid Detective ordered to find out what’s going on with the souls. Never mentioned again, because it was Cas that revealed what was going on with the souls.

    Dean drinks Phoenix ash. Legend says there’s always supposed to be one immortal Phoenix in the world and once one dies, another rises from it’s ashes. Dean killed that one, drank the ash, and now there’s no mythical Phoenix left in the world because nothing came from this, except a little bit of Dean baiting.

    Dean looks for reasons why he hunts, except he never finds any that the audience is told about.

    Dean is supposed to have a ‘special bond’ with Cas, who violated that friendship trust by hurting Sam, except that breaking of trust is immediately forgiven…I guess…according to that one line of dialogue in Survival of the Fittest, because Dean (being the weaker hunter) needed help killing Dick.

    The only role that has not been taken from Dean’s character is that he is Sam’s oldest brother. I hope they don’t find another one out there that John had before he hooked up with Mary.

    Comment by Sheri — June 7, 2012 @ 4:53 am

  672. @671 Ha, maybe John should’ve made one so that the new older brother can take care of Sam so Dean can actually be free of that totally unrewarding storyline and do something else. Sam will probably treat this new older brother a lot better than the one that rescued him from the cage and forgave him for being choked.

    Comment by ORLY — June 7, 2012 @ 5:46 am

  673. @ #672: You forgot willing died so he could make a deal with Death to get Sam’s soul back.

    Comment by Sheri — June 7, 2012 @ 8:31 am

  674. @ Sheri – I was more responding to this part of your comment: “I’ve said for a couple of years now that if the were truly bi-bro, they would be mad as hell that Dean’s stories have been repeatedly dropped like lead ballons.”

    I was just pointing out that some Dean/bi-bro fans may just have a different opinion than you re: Dean’s stories. They may be happy w/them.

    Take the portrayal of Sam’s hallucinations this year. I am a Sam/bi-bro fan that absolutely HATED it. I thought it was poorly told, rushed, and neglected for most of the season. There are other people who favor Sam or just plain Sam fans, in general, who loved the execution of the story. They thought it was well-executed and thorough, and that Sera did a great job w/it. I disagree. I pretty much thought it sucked except for one episode!

    We disagree b/c we clearly watch for different things. Those people didn’t want to see Sam hampered by the memories, they wanted him on his feet hunting (though I swear that’s all we saw). I don’t think that means they aren’t as interested or invested in Sam as I am. They just clearly wanted something different from the story than I did.

    I think the same can be said of bi-bro/Dean fans who are not unhappy w/his storylines on the show. I disagree w/the idea that Dean’s Michael story was given to Adam. Dean made a choice. His choice was to refuse to “vessel up.” I know many of those who favor Dean took offense to Michael’s comment that Dean was no longer part of the story, but I saw Michael as being dead wrong; Dean was very much a part of the story. But for Dean, the Apocalypse would have occurred. Sam wasn’t taking control of Lucifer. It was over.

    It was b/c of Dean – and only Dean – that Sam was able to get control of Lucifer. What can I say? In a season full of episodes that I found just okay, I loved “Swan Song.” It is one of my favorite episodes. I’ve re-watched it numerous times. My favorite part is when Dean comes to that field to be w/Sam, and when Sam gets control and tells Dean he “has” Lucifer. I thought it was very sweet and great brotherly moment. My other favorite part is when Sam accepts Lucifer and then fakes out Dean. When Lucifer says he told Dean it would always happen in Detroit or whatever and disappears, the look on Dean’s face KILLS me! Great episode, IMO.

    I know we discussed this before but the mytharc, while interesting, is NOT why I fell in love w/this show. I fell in love w/this show b/c of the brothers and their relationship and how strong it was presented. The emotional moments are the BEST for me. I know others may disagree.

    Honestly, I never thought much of Dean killing the WOB (I have never rewatched this episode so I don’t really remember what they said), or him never being possessed or the “intrepid detective” thing or the “special bond” w/Castiel.

    For the first few seasons (1-3), I did not come online. In fact, I didn’t discuss this show w/anyone. I basically watched the episodes, and that was it. I never over-analyzed them or looked for clues to potential plots. I took the show for what it was. I think being off the boards for the first several seasons has kept me bi-bro and basically pleased if the story is good. For the most part, I still watch in that manner (i.e., just sitting back and enjoying the ride). I’m definitely more critical nowadays but this season was really bad.

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 7, 2012 @ 9:16 am

  675. Lisa1 @669 what story, what arch? Adam didn’t take Dean’s story? For two seasons Dean was supposed to be the one to stop Lucifer (Castiel said in “Point Of No Return”, “The righteous man who breaks the seal is the only one who can stop Lucifer”) and for all of season 5 he was Micheal’s one true vessel. In ‘Swan Song’ Dean did not stop Lucifer and Adam was Micheal’s vessel. So what is Dean’s story? The only story Dean ever had that wasn’t either dropped or usurped by someone else was to go to hell and ironically Kripke didn’t wont him to.

    What story are you happy about? What is or was his arch? Can you define Dean’s character and purpose from season 1 to 7 without making major “inexplicable” alterations? I’d really like to know.

    These questions are not rhetorical.

    Comment by Haley 56 — June 7, 2012 @ 9:18 am

  676. orly @670, potted plant, love it. Finely some one who gets my Eli Wallach in “The Magnificent Seven” story. On the screen for a total of 8 1/2, 4 1/2 in the opening but after that he was all anyone talked about and the driving force for story in the first place. The was a reason Eli got second billing.

    Lisa1 @674The reason people were complaining about the hallucination story is because after all hype (Sam will be a drooling mess etc.) he was basically functional until “Out With The Old” and the situation was resolved in “The Born Again Identity”. He did continue to hunt as if nothing was wrong and even had a successful hunt in the hospital. The majority of Samfans were irate because he didn’t have more of a breakdown, the story was largely appearing in only four episodes and featured in only two.

    Comment by Haley 56 — June 7, 2012 @ 9:53 am

  677. I guess the brotherhood doesn’t mean as much to some people as it does others. Maybe some fans only care about Dean having a story and his relationship with his brother doesn’t interest them at all. I think the fact that all some fans care about is that Dean doesn’t get to wear Michael’s meatsuit shows that.

    Nevermind the fact that Sam would never have been able to overcome Lucifer if Dean hadn’t been there. It was a great brotherly moment. Completely ignoring that makes it seem some people don’t care about it at all. It was the strength and love of the brothers that brought the devil down.

    I think some fans just want Dean to have all the glory and be front and center. What they don’t realize is he doesn’t always have to be to be a hero. His part was very vital in that episode. I don’t really see what the point of having Dean as Michael in the end would’ve been anyway. So they BOTH go in the pit? They fight to the death and the world ends?

    It doesn’t really matter in the end if you ask me, a large portion of the season was spent on Dean as Michael’s vessel. Even if it didn’t pan out that way, he still had centerstage during the season. He got WAY more attention over that storyline than Sam did this season. Somehow it wasn’t enough and I guess it never will be for some fans. Some fans just seem to want everything about Dean.

    Comment by Ze — June 7, 2012 @ 9:54 am

  678. PS; What’s the WOB that Dean killed?

    Sorry forgot to put ORLY in capitals.

    Comment by Haley 56 — June 7, 2012 @ 9:55 am

  679. Ze @677, To see how often the story is about Dean, his story lines come to fruition and he is the hero please refer to post 671 by Sheri. That’s how often Dean is the hero or the story is all about him.

    Dean fans don’t want the show to be all about him, they would like him to have a story line of some importance that actually goes somewhere and means something.

    Sheri @671, I doft my hat to you. Brilliantly done.

    Comment by Haley 56 — June 7, 2012 @ 10:09 am

  680. —Of course one could argue that Sam’s new older brother might not slug Sam repeatedly taking out his rage on his brother since he has no wife to beat up on, and he knows Sam will in most cases not fight back and forgive him. Or the older brother might actually thank Sam for using his powers and repeatedly saving his older brother from death. Or maybe this new older brother would acknowledge that Sam took responsibility for starting the apocalypse even though his older brother broke the first seal and his older brother’s special angel friend set up Sam to break the final seal. Never was Dean shown in his multiple guilt trips to be feeling guilty over Sam taking the fall for something he, Dean, began; and that hypocritical angel has never even admitted his crucial role in starting the apocalypse.
    I’m just as sick as you guys with Dean’s treatment the past few years; and Dean as Sam’s keeper, while important, has been grossly overdone, but I don’t think the fictional character Sam or the actor Jared is responsible for that. They don’t write the series. Dean’s role is not Sam or Jared’s fault. I don’t understand the underlying jabs at Sam because Dean’s story is so bad. This should not be a zero sum game.
    IMO Sam had by far the better role in 4, 6, and 7–indeed the only good roles in 6 and 7. His role in 5 was his worst role of all the seasons until the last two episodes. Deans been communing with his angel or pouting soap lines about his problems for most of 4 seasons now–and done largely nothing.
    I agree. It is time to have a compelling Dean story. Not a Castiel story with Dean in the secondary role of redeemer, or a Sam story with Dean as his savior. That doesn’t mean that I want to see no Sam story. There is no reason except lazy writing that both Winchesters cannot have compelling stories individually and as a pair. No reason at all.

    Comment by CaseyT — June 7, 2012 @ 10:11 am

  681. @ Ze – Great post! Like you, the brotherhood means a lot to me. It IS the show, IMO.

    @ Haley 56 – I know why people were complaining about Sam’s hallucination story this year b/c I was one of them! LOL! That story was horribly executed to me. I definitely wanted more and can name thousands of little, subtle ways Sam’s mental instability could have been shown. The writers lacked creativity and basic interest in Sam’s story this year along with the show, in general. That, of course, is JMO.

    It’s hard to answer your other question because I don’t compartmentalize the show the way you seem to do. I’ve never been looking at Dean’s story versus Sam’s story; it’s just THE story. I don’t look at any of the seasons as being about ONE brother; the show is about both of them. I just don’t look at the show the way you do. I never have. It’s always been a show about two brothers to me. What happens to one affects the other.

    All I can say is I was happy with Seasons 1-3 for Dean and his character. When Castiel told Dean he had a job to do, I didn’t get excited because Dean was finally going to have a “story” like you guys; I was just excited to see what happened. The same goes for Dean being Michael’s true vessel. Again, it wasn’t like I was happy Dean finally had a “role” or “purpose” on the show like you guys. I thought it was an interesting twist and wanted to see how it would play out.

    For me, Dean’s always had a role and purpose on the show. I honestly don’t go into the seasons looking for what Sam or Dean, specifically, are slated to do. Now, if they set up a scenario like Sam’s wall collapsing or Dean going to Hell, then, yes, I would expect them to spend time on those stories and to do them justice. But, in general, I just want to be entertained. I want Sam to speak up more and get more emotional/character development like Dean has, IMO. I hope that explains my position some.

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 7, 2012 @ 11:06 am

  682. WOB – Whore of Babylon

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 7, 2012 @ 11:12 am

  683. @ Lisa1 #674: We will agree that some fans like whatever they see, but I suspect many of the 1.5 million fans that have quit watching the show is because Dean’s character has so badly ignored. I could be wrong, but many of the Dean-favoring posters that I used to see on the boards are no longer posting. (I came on the boards in S4, the post popular season according to Alice Jester, and when both brothers had a story.

    If you and others are happy with Dean’s story, no problem. All I’m saying is that I don’t see that Dean has every had a story that wasn’t dropped totally, so I don’t understand how anybody, bi-bro or otherwise, could be happy with what has been done to Dean throughout the show.

    We can also agree that S7 was terrible for both brothers. Sam’s story was very poorly done and used only to bring Cas back into the show. Dean’s story (alcoholism/depression) was given to Bobby. I thought Sam’s story was horrible in S6, too.

    I disagree with Swan Song (and this refers to a comment in Ze #677 post also). I didn’t see Dean showing up at the cemetery as Dean helping with the Apocalypse. It was the sunbeam landing on Sam’s toy soldier — not Dean’s toy — that triggered Sam’s brother memories, and Bobby or the local cab driver could have driven the Impala to that cemetery and situated it so the sunbeam would catch Luci/Sam’s eye. In turn, those memories triggered Luci’s memories of Michael, reminding him that Michael and he were brothers; i.e., Luci trying to talk Michael into walking away from the fight. Sam didn’t gain control of Luci during those memories; Luci let go of control over Sam as he viewed Sam’s memories and thought about he and Michael. I didn’t view any of that as a beautiful brother moment.

    I absolutely hated Swan Song, although I have read of a handful of people who loved it. When a writer writes in an apology because he knows people aren’t going to like the episode, to me that is an indication that even he knows it is a crap script.

    @ Ze #677: I refer you to Haley56 Post #679. But more than that, in S5 Dean had lost all trust in Sam and his focus turned solely to stopping the Apocalypse. He did not believe Sam had his back. In the end, he took Sam back to try to prevent him from saying yes to Luci, and then he agreed to let Sam say yes to Luci, because he saw no other way to stop the Apocalypse. Dean’s sole role in S5 was to become depressed and isolated, and that was used only to let SG turn the character into a soapy houseboy to showcase her Lisa character in S6.

    The only thing interesting brought up for Dean in S5 was the look inside his head in Sam, Interrupted. This episode clearly showed that Dean is crazy inside his head; something that had been suggested many times since the Pilot aired. Where did that possible storyline go? Nowhere.

    @ CaseyT #680: I’ve read your posts for years and I know you are one of the true bi-bro fan. I also know that you have not been happy with Dean’s story for a while now. I’d just mention, though, that my discussion has nothing to do with what one brother did to the other or vise versa. Likewise, I am not talking about Sam/Jared, and I hope posters don’t even start on that again.

    Like you, I would like to see, and hope to see, a story for both brothers with Cas used only as a support character. It’s time Dean had a story and it’s well past time that Cas’s character has been given a leading role.

    @ Haley56 #679. Thanks, Haley.

    Comment by Sheri — June 7, 2012 @ 12:31 pm

  684. I think I have said this before but as far as Dean as Michael’s vessel, Dean would have had nothing to do with stopping Lucifer. It would have been all Michael. The hard but heroic choice was saying no. Adam was a nonentity after being possessed. Sure it always could have been done better, but I like how the story played out with Dean as himself hunting the rings, schmoozing with Death and being there at the end with his brother. Dean’s words to Sam as he is being beaten to death by Lucifer are some of the most heartbreaking of the series. “Sam, I’m here. I won’t leave you.” Again, heroic. I don’t know about only a few people liking it though. It consistently wins series favorite awards in Supernatural Magazine and other polls.

    But I’m not here to change anyone’s mind. People like what they like and so on. I do agree that Dean’s character has suffered under Sera’s leadership and hope for better things ahead in season 8.

    Comment by beth w — June 7, 2012 @ 12:55 pm

  685. Lisa1, I’m sorry I’m not trying to be rude and I deeply appreciate your effort to answer me but I don’t think you understand what I’m asking. I’ll try to explain my question and we can try again or just answer “Sorry Haley I don’t get.” and we’ll call it a noble if less then perfect effort to exchange ideas and leave it at that.

    You say you think Dean has always had a role and a purpose, that he has his story and you’re happy with that. My question is what do you think that purpose is? I’m not

    Comment by Haley 56 — June 7, 2012 @ 1:43 pm

  686. I didn’t even touch the computer when it uploaded my post. There is something spooky going on here in my house.

    One more time. What do you think is Dean’s primary role in this series, not in a particular episode or season but in the show.

    I don’t know your age, interests or anything so instead of trying to come up with an appropriate example I’ll go with the story everybody can’t avoid knowing about. Twilight.

    Edward’s role is to be an exotic and somewhat dangerous love interest for Bella who’s very nature brings numerous threats to her life, creates seemingly insurmountable obstacles to overcome and draws her out of the mainstream.

    His story is learning to accept his existence as a predatory creature and to accept the love of the girl he has fallen in love with, to protect her from the dangers loving him has put her in and deal with his equally ardent, exotic and dangerous rival for Bella’s affection.

    What is Deans role in Supernatural, what is his story? Care to try again?

    CaseyT because a person isn’t happy with the treatment of Dean doesn’t mean they blame Sam for it. Sure some do but I don’t think most do.

    Comment by Haley 56 — June 7, 2012 @ 2:19 pm

  687. Bringing Adam in was huge cop-out by Kripke. He spent years building up this epic fight between the two, then he does that, in Swan Song. Even though I never liked alot of the over arching angel stuff in season 5. It should have been Sam and Dean in the end, not Sam and Adam.

    Comment by katie — June 7, 2012 @ 6:13 pm

  688. Sheri: We do not always agree by any means but there has never been any doubt that you are a true supporter of Dean.
    Just read your POST #671. Excellent.

    I wish some one could bring just one of those points out at comic con or one of the conventions and get an actual answer/explanation. But I don’t believe an actual answer could be given because so many of those points were written with no actual intent for them to ever really lead to anything.

    Have to hope the new season will have an actual solid foundation to stand on and will actually lead somewhere for both of the actual main characters of the show.

    Comment by SL — June 7, 2012 @ 8:49 pm

  689. As far as season 8 is concerned: I hope that Sam will figure out a way to get his brother out of purgatory on his own for once. Because till now almost every big problem was solved more or less in this “deus ex machina”-way; season two, we have dad saving dean, season two, dean sells his soul to save dean, then, again dad helps to kill yellow-eye, season four dean is saved by angels, season five lucifer could only be defeated with a little help from god (I don´t remember which episode it was when cas i think said something like “he helped, more than you can probably imagine”); anyway, cas was rebuilt, too, by god; then season 6 of course. sam is brought up by crowley, then saved from his own memories by cas (again). See the pattern?

    However, there are still a lot of unsolved things in the show I´d like to see being solved in the next season. Examples?
    What is it with Chuck just disappearing? Probably related to that question: Where the hell is god actually? (After they spent half a season seeking him);
    Why exactly wanted Dead dean to take his place in the first way? I mean, if he´s older than god and oh so mighty and all-knowing, why does he care about it?
    And what about the demon blood now? Cause, suddenly it´s off again? Isn´t the blood still a part of him?
    Why are mary/john not in heaven? And so on…
    Oh, and of course by the way it would be nice, if they could put sera gamble´s mess right again. That´s it.

    Comment by Mary — June 8, 2012 @ 12:20 am

  690. @ 671

    Sorry Sheri, I can’t say I agree with many, if any, of your points.

    “I have read the posts where some believe that Sam overcame Lucifer in Swan Song to ’save his brother.’ I don’t get that at all either. Sam jumped in the crappy CGI hole to atone — to get redemption — for letting Luci out. It had nothing to do with saving Dean — what did Dean need saving from?”

    Saving from Lucifer? The world ending? I’m fairly sure that Dean wouldn’t be immune from dying if that happened.

    “Dean has had one purpose in seven years, and that was to go to Hell in S3’s 13-week shortened writers’ strike season. (EK has stated that Sam’s story was shortened because of the writers’ strike.) And why was it necessary to get Dean into Hell? To move Sam’s story forward so that he could end up jumping into the bad CGI hole and save the world.”

    It was necessary for Dean to go to hell in order to fulfil the angel’s plan of breaking the first seal, and also to keep him out of the way while Ruby went to work on Sam. (And it’s strange that despite the fact that it was Sam’s side of the story that was shortened and not Dean’s, you still think Dean is being short-changed in terms of storyline.)

    “As it turned out, with all of Dean’s two-year arc being thrown out with the introduction of Adam, there was really no need to even have introduced Dean as Michael’s Sword, Michael’s vessel, the righteous man, the man who killed an archangel. There wasn’t even a reason for the introduction of Cas and the angel story. If JA had not had a contract that had to have been honored, Dean could have remained in Hell, Sam could have discovered Adam all by himself, and Sam could have done exactly what he did in Swan Song without Dean being in the show.”

    Except if Dean were still in hell then the world would be in ruins. Sam would have had followed Ruby’s plan to the letter. He would have been in the church when Lucifer rose and, as was the plan, would have taken Sam as his vessel. Because of Dean, that didn’t happen. If Dean was still in hell, Sam would have had no reason to fight Lucifer. It was clearly evident that Adam was not a strong enough vessel for Michael so Lucifer would have won the battle royale. For everyone bar Lucifer, lose, lose all round. So I’m kinda glad that Dean didn’t remain in hell.

    Re: the angels. Kripke stated that the angels were brought in because the shortened season 3 meant there was not enough time to show the original plan of Sam to go darkside to save Dean.

    “Dean is Michael’s Sword, except that changed to Dean is a vessel.”

    I’d always thought that Dean being Michael’s Sword was the fact that he was his true vessel. Dean was the weapon that Michael planned to use to defeat Lucifer. By refusing Michael of his vessel, he deprived him of the Sword that he needed to defeat Lucifer. Michael wanted to bring a sword (Dean) to battle, he was forced to bring a toothpick (Adam).

    “Dean is a vessel, except that was Adam or anybody in the history of the Winchester bloodline.”

    If that applies for Dean then the same has to be said for Sam; that if he had said no then Lucifer would have approached another Winchester.

    “Dean has PSTD, implied only in two episodes (It’s a Great Pumpkin and Wishful Thinking), then it’s dropped.”

    Yet if you look at it rationally, the effects of that PTSD are still ongoing today. Dean’s confession in ‘You Can’t Handle the Truth’ certainly reeks of PTSD. And Dean’s hell was mentioned throughout season 5 and 6.

    “Dean is the righteous man, except that is some random nun.”

    Dean is ‘a’ righteous man. He is not the only righteous person on the face of the earth, and it was never said that he was. (And it’s very unrealistic to assume that he is.)

    “Dean loves Lisa/Ben, except that Sam came to drag him back into hunting for a reason that was never explained (along with why Grandpa Shady seemed to want Dean hunting too).”

    How is this taking from Dean’s character? Sam explained that he wanted Dean back because things were better when Dean was around. Lisa told Dean he’s not a construction worker, he’s a hunter. She’s right, so Dean left construction and went hunting.

    “Dean is the only human able to kill an angel and look into the grace of an angel without his eyes burning out, except any random demon with an angel blade can do that, too.”

    I could be wrong here but isn’t Dean still the only human who has killed an angel and been able to look at their grace without having his eyes burned out?

    Demons are not human. Why shouldn’t they be able to kill an angel? And in Lazarus Rising we say many demons with their eyes burned out after looking on Castiel. They might not any more but that has to do more with inconsistent writing, and less taking things away from Dean.

    “Dean, upon returning from Hell, is the only human able to hear hellhounds, except that doesn’t mean anything.”

    Dean was torn apart by hellhounds and has been to hell, an after-effect of which is he can hear hellhounds. What more would you like it to mean? As a result of drinking demon blood, Sam in season 5 was more attuned to it and could sense demons via their blood. Same thing.

    “Dean is the only human to have gone to all five realms, except that apparently means nothing, as does the Servant of Heaven, being marked by a fairie, being immune to a Horseman (Famine).”

    What should it mean? I’ve been to all five continents, what does that mean? Do you not think it might be best to maybe wait until the next season starts before you decide it ‘means nothing’. We’ve only seen Dean in Purgatory for about 60 seconds at this stage so unless you’ve seen the scripts for next year, it’s a bit soon to assume it will go nowhere and mean nothing.

    “Dean suffers from alcoholism and depression, except that goes nowhere.”

    Where would you like this to go? If a liver transplant was in line for Dean, would you be happy with that as a closure of that particular storyline. The alcoholism and depression are symbols of something greater. That is the storyline.

    “Dean died, was turned into a vampire, and received the alpha vamp’s ‘vision.’ That was a cool scene, but it didn’t mean anything. It certainly wasn’t mentioned in There Will Be Blood when they hooked up with the alpha vamp again.”

    It was there so we could see how Eve connected with her monsters. We also saw it with Lenore. And in The Mentalists, Sam’s psychic abilities were never mentioned despite them being in a town full of psychics. It’s not as if the show has to constantly reference everything.

    “Dean is Death’s Intrepid Detective ordered to find out what’s going on with the souls. Never mentioned again, because it was Cas that revealed what was going on with the souls.”

    Dean was always an intrepid detective and in this case his ‘intrepid detective’ skills led him to Castiel, who told him what was going on with the souls. Dean found out, tried to stop it.

    “Dean drinks Phoenix ash. Legend says there’s always supposed to be one immortal Phoenix in the world and once one dies, another rises from it’s ashes. Dean killed that one, drank the ash, and now there’s no mythical Phoenix left in the world because nothing came from this, except a little bit of Dean baiting.”

    I not quite sure what you mean by this. Do you think Dean should become the next Phoenix? There was plenty of ash left behind in the 1860’s to enable another Phoenix to rise from them.

    “Dean looks for reasons why he hunts, except he never finds any that the audience is told about.”

    Most of season 7 was about Dean being told those reasons from a variety of sources. That will take time to set in. It’s not going to be a lightbulb moment for him ‘Aha, now I have reason to hunt again. Samantha, fetch me my longsword and a bar wench.”

    “Dean is supposed to have a ’special bond’ with Cas, who violated that friendship trust by hurting Sam, except that breaking of trust is immediately forgiven…I guess…according to that one line of dialogue in Survival of the Fittest, because Dean (being the weaker hunter) needed help killing Dick.”

    Immediately forgiven??? Yeah, I definitely read that scene differently from you. Dean Winchester doesn’t do immediate forgiveness. He harboured anger over his father and brother for years. In season 5, he still worked with Sam despite not forgiving him. Although now, with both Dean and Castiel in Purgatory, they have time to work on their ‘special bond’ and work together so maybe Castiel can ‘earn’ Dean’s forgiveness.

    Why does ‘needing help’ make you weaker? Dean needed Castiel’s skills to get him to Sucrocorp. He didn’t need him to kill Dick Roman, that was all Dean.

    “The only role that has not been taken from Dean’s character is that he is Sam’s oldest brother. I hope they don’t find another one out there that John had before he hooked up with Mary.”

    Sheri, I get that you’re upset about what you see as a lack of Dean development but come on!!

    You know, if you wanted to, the same thing could be argued about Sam, that his role could easily be substituted by someone else. I’d need to be as selective in my ‘evidence’ as you were here but it could be done.

    Any one of the special kids could have led the demon army, it didn’t have to be Sam. Wait, it wasn’t Sam, it was Jake. The role that was to go to Sam, getting Dean out of hell, went to the angels. Lucifer had more than one vessel and had Sam not said yes, he could have raised any number of Winchesters to be his vessel, as Michael did with Adam.

    Comment by Etain — June 8, 2012 @ 1:08 am

  691. @Etain (671) – Excellent, excellent post! I couldn’t agree more with your every word. As you mentioned, all the complaints that Dean’s stories were taken from him could also be applied to Sam.

    Sam wasn’t the one and only psychic kid. There were several, and any of them could have been Lucifer’s “true vessel.” In fact, those keeping score should realize Dean has a leg up on Sam in that area because he was Michael’s ONLY true vessel; Lucifer had several, which greatly diminishes Sam’s “importance” to that story. Jake was the actual one that was going to accept Lucifer, etc. It’s not like the entire plan depended on Sam.

    And to discuss the “true vessel” concept a bit more, I always thought it was pretty clear that Dean was the TRUE vessel, not Adam. Michael only chose Adam because Dean refused to consent. Dean was THE Michael sword in that he was the BEST (i.e., true) vessel. It’s not like Lucifer didn’t also choose a vessel in Nick. He was walking around in Nick because He couldn’t get to Sam, the last remaining
    psychic kid thereby making Sam the only “true” vessel on the planet at that time.

    As you mentioned, Sam was supposed to “go darkside” to save Dean, but he didn’t; Castiel saved Dean. It could be said that Castiel “stole” Sam’s story. Kripke didn’t have to introduce angels in the 4th Season. He could have shown how Sam went darkside to save Dean through flashbacks or something.

    Sam’s consumption of demon blood was supposed to change him permanently, but it didn’t. Sam’s eyes went black like a demon, but nothing came of it. Ruby told Sam he didn’t need the DB to access his powers implying that the powers are in Sam regardless of whether he drinks DB or not, but nothing else was said w/r/t this. Lucifer said it had to be Sam. Why? It looks like it could have been any PK so there’s inconsistency there. Sam’s Hell memories were supposed to be ver debilitating but ended up being nothing life altering. That was a dropped plot, or rather poorly explored resolution.

    My point is just like you can raise unanswered questions about Dean, you can do
    the same with Sam.

    @Haley 56 – You seem to be looking for an express plot for Dean w/r/t the larger story. You want to know if Dean is important to the show on a larger level when I’m just looking at the show as a whole.

    Supernatural started, for me, as a show about two brothers whose family fought monsters, creatures, etc. I view the show as telling me their story. I’m not looking for either brother to “save” the world or to be the one human being all monsters fear. It’s just never been that type of show to me. Yes, they introduced Sam as having visions but I never viewed that on a “larger scale.” My interest in that story was how it impacted Sam on a personal level. I wasn’t interested in it meaning Sam had some special purpose in the show. That’s not why I watch. I watch because
    I’m interested in their lives and how the events in their lives impact them on a
    personal level. So, for me, both Sam and Dean have “purpose” because the show is about them and their lives. Again, I do not need them to be special because their vessels or are the only humans who can kill angels. For me, that’s not important. It’s just another aspect of the show.

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 8, 2012 @ 7:15 am

  692. @ Etain #690: Volumes would need to be written to respond to all of your points, but I’ll try to respond as briefly as I can.

    Saving Dean from dying, Dean going to Hell, Dean’s drinking, Hell hallucinations, angel nightmares and all of the rest of it:

    God, I hate to even discuss the stupidest plan ever shown on TV. Yes, Dean would have died along with everyone else if the stupid plan would not have worked. However, if Dean would have said yes to Michael, I see no reason for anyone to have died. Nick, Luci’s vessel, was at the point of disintegration. There should have been no contest between Luci and Michael. But that’s not the point.

    All of the above were used in the show as metaphors to have Dean in the show when they couldn’t think of anything else to do with Dean’s character. Meanwhile, everything that was important to the story was happening with Sam and other characters. Sam’s story was brought to completion with Swan Song and, as it turned out, Dean had no role in that story other than being Sam’s brother. Even in S7, Sam’s hellpain story was brought to conclusion; admittedly very poorly done, but done nonetheless.

    So, yes, I most definitely think that all of Dean’s stories have been short-changed in the show; and, no, I don’t think Sam could be substituted by any psychic kid on the planet, because Sam’s stories came to completion.

    Take, for instance, the righteous man. Dean had to go to Hell and shed blood to become the righteous man. He had to be the one to start it and to finish it in the Apocalypse story. Under this scenario, Dean became the Alpha and the Omega, the Jesus figure, and the show went to great lengths to establish Dean’s character as that metaphorical ‘Jesus figure’ throughout S4, from the resurrection, to the righteous man, to being able to look at an angel’s grace w/o having eyes burned out, to not being affected by Famine, to having the ability to hear hellhounds, to killing the WoB, to confronting the most powerful horseman (Death).

    (P.S.: Since Sam, Dean and, wasn’t Kevin there, too?, all saw an angel’s grace when Meg killed Hestor, I guess Dean isn’t the only human now who can look upon an angel’s grace w/o harm.)

    In S5, the righteous man story was dropped in favor of the vessels story. Sam remained Luci’s vessel, but Dean’s vessel story was given to Adam, despite the fact that Luci was a far worse enemy than Michael. Michael even stated that Dean was no longer a part of the story. All of Dean’s uniqueness and purpose to the story was thrown out and all he effectively did was show up at the cemetery, got the crap beat out of himself, and became the tragic human.

    Which brings up a side-point. The vessel story for both Sam and Dean was completely ignored in S6. One would think that if being the one true vessel for Lucifer and Michael was such a big deal, then consuming the souls of those two vessels would have given Crowley and/or Cas one big whooping boost in power. Not so, apparently….and…

    If another Winchester had consumed demon blood, I guess Sam could have been replaced, too, except we were never shown that another Winchester consumed demon blood. Sam was the special chosen one as a vessel for Lucifer The brothers were supposed to be the Cain and Abel, arranged so by Heaven itself.

    What you describe for the PTSD, being able to hear the hellhounds, the vamp vision, and intrepid detective skills is that they are used as plot devices. In the case of the hellhounds, it is to let the other humans in the scene know that hellhounds are running about. As for the PTSD, that was briefly mentioned (twice in S6, I think). The point is that spoilers for Dean’s story in S6 and S7 were that he would be looking for the reasons that he is a hunter. Perhaps I missed the ‘ah ha’ moment where he gained some self-esteem because he realizes that what he does is important and that he is good at hunting? No, I didn’t. That’s not to say that Carver won’t re-address it or resolve it in S8, but we can only speak of what has gone on so far (and that plot has gone nowhere) and not speculate on what we haven’t seen.

    Dean and the five realms: This is a little different than you traipsing around the world in real life. First off, it’s fiction, and a pretty big anvil to drop in a fiction story if it doesn’t mean anything. Perhaps Carver will address it, but that’s a ‘what if and maybe.’ At this point in time, it is a dropped plot line that has gone nowhere.

    Dean’s alcoholism/depression: If alcoholism and depression are symbols of something greater, what is that ‘greater?’ I saw no reason in S7 to take Dean’s character in that direction; especially since the revenge story was given over to Bobby. What I would have liked is for that to have led to Dean going off the rails and Sam having to pull him back. I think there would have been a lot of character growth for both characters and some brother bonding with a story like that. As it is, I see turning Dean into a pill popping alcoholic only as another way SG tried to demonize Dean’s character. Besides, I think that storyline is now over and…dropped.

    Drinking Phoenix Ash: This could have been used as a way to take down Dick and actually related to a story for Dean. If there’s another one running around, so be it, but I view this as one more lost opportunity in a season full of lost opportunities to give both Sam and Dean some character growth, some believable brother bonding, give the show some consistency, and give Dean something meaningful to do; which neither brother really did in S7. Nothing of significance was revealed about either brother in S7. It was the Season of the Guest Stars.

    Dean/Cas ‘special bond’ and forgiveness: Again, you are speaking of what could be, while I am speaking of what has been shown up to this point. There is no point in addressing ‘what if’s and maybe’s’.

    Killing Dick: No, Cas had to point the real Dick out (which was okay), but he jumped Dick from behind when a strong Dick made a move on Dean and held Dick’s neck while Dean stabbed him. That’s not the point though. The two Winchesters are supposed to be the best hunters on the plant (now that Bobby is dead), and I would like to see them take their rightful place; win once in a while without every Tom, Dick, powerful witches, or teenage Krissy’s having to save them or help them kill something. I want two badass hunters back in a gritty horror/drama show with a storyline that includes both of them, without deus ex machinas to solve every problem, and without emoting over their miserable lives. I see nothing wrong in those wishes.

    Sam’s psychic abilities: I may be wrong, but I took Sam saying he was completely normal in that episode where possessed-Bobby stabbed himself to keep from killing Dean also covered the psychic abilities (S5, I think). I know EK said he was tired of them, and since those abilities were actually death visions to lead the brothers to cases related to the YED, there was no longer a need for those abilities in the Apocalypse story.

    Comment by Sheri — June 8, 2012 @ 9:18 am

  693. @ Lisa1: Just to repeat, no Sam could not have been replaced by any psychic kid. The show specifically said that Sam and Dean were the “true vessels.” More than that, though, all of Sam’s stories have been brought to completion and been resolved. None of Dean’s stories have.

    There is nothing wrong with watching the show for entertainment purposes only. Perhaps that is why you have no problems with the missteps that have been taken or the ‘personal journey’ of each brother that the last two seasons have given us.

    Personally, I am sick to death of the ‘personal journey’ stories. I view them as nothing more than dark romantic fantasy and something that could be seen in any daytime TV soap opera. This show is supposed to be horror/drama.

    I watch for more than just two pretty faces, although eye candy is always nice. I want a compelling story, coherently told, with resolutions to issues or stories brought up, character growth over time, the focus of the story to be on the lead characters, pacing that carries the story forward throughout the season, and consistency in canon so I can believe in the story being told.

    All of these have been significantly lacking in the past two years and EK punted his five-year story with Swan Song.

    I think the firestorm in the fandom that we’ve seen for the past two years has been because all of these things were lacking.

    Comment by Sheri — June 8, 2012 @ 9:51 am

  694. Correction – I meant Etain’s post at 691, not 671.

    @Sheri – I don’t think you can say the Lucifer vessel story was unique to Sam. Any of the PKs could have been the vessel. Sam died, so the YED was training Jake to do what he wanted. Dean brought Sam back, but even YED didn’t anticipate that. I never got the sense that the entire plan depended on Sam. That’s not how the show, IMO, presented it. Sam just happened to be the last remaining PK so by process of elimination, he was slated to be the “true” vessel.

    Maybe Kripke wanted it to be about the Winchesters, but that was not made clear IMO. We were led to believe that the PKs were to fight to the death to see who could be the king of the demon army (i.e., vessel Lucifer). So, it could have been any of them. Kripke linked the stories so I have to believe any of the PKs could have been the vessel. There wasn’t anything particular about the Winchester blood w/r/t that story.

    Drinking Phoenix’s Ashes: I haven’t seen that episode since it aired but did they say only special people could do that. I mean was there some indication that Dean drinking the ashes meant something more than him just being clever when it came to killing the MOA?

    Dean being in all 5 realms: Again, have there been hints that this is supposed to mean something or important? Are you thinking it should mean something important, or that it should deem Dean “special” in some capacity. I’m not being snarky by the way. I’m genuinely asking.

    Dean’s bond w/Castiel: Are you upset that Dean worked with Cas at all? Do you want them to expand on the relationship? I’m not sure what you want to see here. I think they’ve shown that Dean and Cas are close. I guess I’m nost sure what you want to see or what’s bothering you about what’s been shown. As Etain said, they’ll be in Purgatory together so I’m sure we’ll see more of their relationship.

    Killing Dick: I guess you’re upset b/c Cas helped hold Dick down while Dean stabbed him. I guess that’s not a big deal to me. I know a lot of posters seem to care who gets the final kills, etc, but that’s never been a concern of mine. Both boys are capable, competent hunters, IMO. I don’t need to see either “get the kill” in order to know that. I do understand it is important for some though.

    Dean’s depression/alcoholism – The depression angle has yet to be resolved, and is, IMO, played out. I have no desire to see Dean depressed anymore. IMO, he’s been depressed in spurts since Season 4 so it’s been four years now. And the only reason I don’t enjoy this angle is b/c the writers refuse to resolve it. Clearly, Sera had no clue what to do w/Dean this year so she went w/the handy “depressed” angle for like 15 episodes, and then it just ended. IMO, Dean has been disillusioned w/hunting since John died, and he learned he might have to kill Sam. Hunting, since then IMO, has never held the same joy for him that it once did. If this angle is ever re-introduced, I need Dean to find a reason to enjoy hunting again and be happy again. If he’s never depressed again, you won’t see me complaining.

    I think the alcoholism comes more from the fans than the writers. I don’t believe the writers ever intended to make Dean an alcoholic, etc. He drinks a lot but his drinking has YET to interfere w/his life in any substantial or signifcant way. He doesn’t get drunk on hunts. He doesn’t even get drunk on a daily basis. He’s not an alcoholic, IMO. I guesss one could argue he’s a functional alcoholic, but even functional alcoholics have symptoms as time goes on (i.e., shakes, nervousness, memory blanks, etc). I don’t know. Dean just doesn’t present as an alcoholic t me, not even a functioning alcoholic. Yes, we don’t see the boys every minute of their days but I don’t think Dean needs to drink to go about his day.

    Dean’s PTSD: I agree w/Etain that the PTSD has been playing out since Season 4 in some form or fashion.

    Dean hearing the hellhounds: Did you want this to mean something more than what it did? And when did he hear the hellhounds when no one else did? I haven’t rewatched that episode when Jo/Ellen died so I can’t recall what happened there, and I could have sworn Meg was the one who alerted them to the hellhounds last season. I guess I would like to know what you would want this to mean. Do you want Dean to have this ability just b/c it’s unique or b/c it could give them a leg up in case hellhounds are nearby? What purpose do you think it would give Dean to be able to hear hellhounds? Do you just think it’s a neat concept?

    Again, please don’t think I’m being snarky. I’m just trying to understand where you guys are coming from. AND please don’t think that I’m against Dean being able to hear hellhounds or him being special b/c he drank the Phoenix’s ashes or was in the 5 realms. I’m totally fine w/those ideas/concepts. I, myself, did not think any of those things meant anything in particular. I take my cues from the show, and I don’t recall anything being said that indicated something “more” from those acts.

    Dean looking at an angel’s true visage: I had to go to YouTube to rewatch the Zachariah scene b/c I couldn’t recall, but I will agree that that’s a dropped angle much like, IMO, Sam’s eyes going demon black or the consumption of blood supposedly changing him.

    Now, I’m not trying to make excuses or prevent Dean from being special in some way b/c this is a genuine question: when you kill angels, is that supposed to be different from just seeing them? Anna instructed them all to close their eyes when she was getting her grace back. None of the angels have ever just appeared in their true forms. Hasn’t Cas killed other angels in front of the boys before? I can’t remember. If so, did they avert their eyes? When they used that “angel away” symbol, don’t the angels flit away in a blast of light? I’ve seen Dean avert his eyes on one occasion, but he hasn’t on others, right? Maybe it’s not the same when they’re being killed. I’m not sure. The real answer is probably this: the writing is sloppy and inconsistent on this point. I don’t even recall the episode where angels were killed this season to look it up on YT. Anyways, I’ll just concede that this is a dropped point or sloppy writing or both. Who knows?

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 8, 2012 @ 10:42 am

  695. @ Sheri – I posted before reading your latest post.

    My point is this – Kripke screwed up his own story if he wanted to make it about Sam and Sam only.

    Several kids were given demon blood. Why? To increase the chances of getting a vessel. For all Lucifer knew, Sam, as an infant, could have gotten cancer and died, and there would have gone Lucifer’s plans if Sam were the ONLY one who could possibly vessel him. Anyway, those kids were given demon blood b/c one was supposed to lead the demon army.

    We learn in Season 4 that YED and Meg were working together to free Lucifer. Didn’t a demon tell YED to give several kids demon blood so a vessel could be chosen? I haven’t rewatched the Season 4 finale in awhile, but I don’t recall anything specific being said about the Winchester bloodline or Sam Winchester, in particular. I’m pretty sure a possessed nun told YED to give demon blood to several kids. Why do that if it only needed to be given to Sam? What was the point of the PK story if Sam was always the one and only vessel? Why did YED work w/Jake if the whole plan went up in smoke when Sam died? And I’m pretty sure YED chose Mary simply b/c she seemed fiesty. It didn’t seem planned like the others or anything.

    Again, I haven’t seen the finale since it aired and I can’t find the scenes on YT for a quick review, but if Kripke always intended for it to only be Sam, that wasn’t made clear. If two of us – me and Etain – believe any of the other PKs could have been the vessels and you feel differently, then I would argue the writing wasn’t clear or consistent on that point.

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 8, 2012 @ 11:08 am

  696. Is SOOOOOOOO bloody funny that the poeple that hated this season are the ones that are going on and on and on about the show. HA! I guess you wasps are true fans!!

    Is also funny how “bestshowfan” has the nerve to objectify me when his user name makes him/her sound so cocky and ignorant. Speacilly since your the first that hated the season. You don’t know me and I do belive in what a true fan is!

    Sheri, No I’m not eatiing not damn turken whatever. my comment wasn’t meant for you exaclty. If you are willing to defend this show then I’ll back you up all the way.

    Lisa, you are right, I SHOULD NOT argue with you, but with that said, I hope to not see your comments here by season 8, cuz you will be considered a total hipocrate!! And one last thing, I would rather pint point something good about the show that I liked than to ramble here and leaving 100 comments of “What is and Should Never Be”.
    By the way nice line, right!;)

    Ya’ll make me LAUGH! Oh, Im sorry YOU ALL make me laugh. Is it better now BEST SHOW FAN!!


    Comment by Adam — June 8, 2012 @ 11:37 am

  697. @ Lisa1: The only thing I want out of the show is a story for Dean for once in 7 years.

    The points I brought out were to illustrate what I call Dean-baiting — pretending to give him a story and then jerking it away or dropping it entirely.

    I much prefer Dean remain 100% human, and I hope that Sam is now 100% human, too. I want to see human ingenuity win out over evil.

    I don’t know what Carver has planned, but from what I have read, he stays faithful to whatever canon he makes. I will welcome that trait, if it’s true. I think when canon is willfully thrown out, as SG was extremely adept at doing, it causes the writers problems and leads to what happened this season — Sam and Dean both becoming unrecognizable as the two people we knew. It breaks the trust the audience has in the story being told, damages the premise of the show, and leads to the characters being used as plot tools in the story. You end up with the characters being driven by the plot, instead of the plot being driven by the characters (as we’ve seen for the past two years).

    SG was simply over her head in the showrunner position, and I’m glad she is gone.

    As far as Dean drinking, I like Dean drinking and cussing. I even liked all the Dick jokes in this last season — childish and plentiful as they were. I think that adds to the ‘grit’ of the show. I just hope that those two remaining Dean characteristics aren’t taken away from him in the name of political correctness.

    As far as the psychic kids, Kripke is known to lose interest in a storyline and chuck it. S4 did say several kids were fed demon blood, but Sam’s empathy let Jake live and Jake killed him. That led to Dean making the deal, going to Hell, and becoming the righteous man. Then Sam killed Jake, which left him as the remaining psychic kid.

    Kripke dropped the physic kid stuff when he brought up the angel story. Sam’s psychic thing was death visions, which led the brothers to cases revolving around the YED. Once he was dead, there was no more reason for the psychic stuff.

    So, basically, Kripke moved on from the YED story to the Apocalpyse. In the Apocalpyse story, Sam and Dean were clearly supposed to be the true vessels. Honestly, Kripke was making this stuff up by the seat of his pants. His sole purpose was that Sam was supposed to save the world by overcoming Lucifer in some vague way, but he had written himself into a corner with the Dean stuff and, once he lost interest in SPN, he reverted to his original plan, chucked Dean’s story and gave us a crap plan with Swan Song as the end result.

    But I really thing Sam saying that he was perfectly human again at the beginning of S5 was supposed to cover that psychic stuff up.

    I also think that many of the Sam fans pointing to this as an incomplete Sam story is just something to counteract the claims like mine that Dean’s stories are always dropped. Maybe not, but that’s what I think, because every one of Sam’s stories have been brought to a conclusion. Even Sam’s feelings about John, and; at this point, I have no idea what Dean thinks about John. I know that Dean lost his hero worship of John (the Dean-on-Dean scene in Dream a Little Dream), but the last we heard, Dean said John was a deadbeat dad, so I guess he hates him now.

    Comment by Sheri — June 8, 2012 @ 11:58 am

  698. @ Sheri – Here I was thinking we’d never agree, but we did!

    I actually agree that most of Sam’s stories were wrapped up. I do think the whole “eyes going black,” “demon blood making him into something Dean would hunt” plots weren’t really resolved. I don’t recall Sam saying he was human again, just that he didn’t crave demon blood anymore like he did in WTLB.

    As you said, I guess Kripke lost interest in that angle, which was a shame b/c it was interesting to me.

    I also agree w/you about not believing that Kripke had everything planned. I don’t even think Sera originally planned for Castiel to “go evil” in the 6th season. That seemed to come out of nowhere and turned his character into a huge liar and deceiver. Unlike most of y’all here, I enjoyed Castiel. I still do — when he’s normal and not doofy like in the last few episodes.

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 8, 2012 @ 1:10 pm

  699. @ Lisa1: Oh, I think we can also agree that Sam and Dean are still the most intriguing characters on TV and that the show still has the potential of being the best show on TV again. I hope Carver can pull that off and grow the viewing audience to make it the No. 1 show on the CW.

    I don’t care for Misha personally, but I do like the way he and Jensen play off each other. I was just hoping the angel storyline was over once and for all. I can live with Cas if he is used on a limited basis, is used as a support character to the story, and not made a third cast member.

    And, no, I didn’t like the doofy Cas at all. I don’t even know what the purpose of that was.

    Comment by Sheri — June 8, 2012 @ 2:34 pm

  700. @Sheri, Lisa1 and Etain: I enjoyed reading your discussions. Especially since you were all polite and respectful of each other’s pov regardless of whether you agreed.

    @Sheri, I find your point about Dean having been to all five realms interesting. I never thought about that before you mentioned it and it took me a while to remember the “fight the fairies” and that their’s is the fifth realm you were talking about. I mean, supposedly, Dean is the only one to ever come back from the fairy realm and he’s now able to see them. But I doubt this will go anywhere.

    Comment by Stone120 — June 9, 2012 @ 2:35 pm

  701. @ Stone120: I seriously doubt the fairy realm thing will ever be brought up again. This and the Phoenix thing really bug me, because those are big deals in a sci-fy/horror show, and to introduce such concepts and then ignore them is beyond my understanding. The rest of the dropped plots I mentioned were at least passed on to other lesser characters and; therefore, diminished in significance.

    There is one more thing that bugs me, and that is implying since the Pilot that Dean is more comfortable in the supernatural world than he is in the normal world. I call it Dean being half-crazy, but it’s really that dangerous thing showcased in Twi Hard. Multiple other episodes have suggested that Dean walks between that dangerous side and the path that Sam keeps him on. To suggest that for years and do nothing with it; then turn Dean into a suburban houseboy, and then a depressed, suicidal, pill-popping alcoholic for no apparent reason — I just don’t get it.

    Nor do I understand what Sam was supposed to be this year. He was nuts, then perfectly okay, then nuts, then perfectly okay. He was worried about Dean, then indifferent or oblivious. He was focused on small cases, and totally unconcerned about the Levi. I just didn’t get what his character was at all this season.

    Comment by Sheri — June 9, 2012 @ 4:28 pm

  702. @680 The more people say Dean is a bully and such an overbearing meanie, the more I wonder why the same people say they want them together and want to kill off all other supporting characters.

    Also I hate it when people say “get over Season Four and amy” then also turn around and complain about how Dean was such a terrible caretaker pre-series.

    Comment by ORLY — June 9, 2012 @ 9:52 pm

  703. @Sheri, I didn’t pay that much attention to the Phoenix thing except for the way Dean used it to kill Eve. I’m rewatching S6, so I’ll pay more attention to the legend behind it this time around.

    As for the Dean/Lisa/Ben arch. I didn’t hate it, well except the part about the Campbells making fun of Dean because he dared to live a normal life for one year out of 25+ years. It’s probably the overbearing mother hen in me that wanted him to have something akin to normal.

    I love the half-crazy, happy to hack off monster’s head Dean, but he was happier doing the job with his family. In his core, Dean is a family man for me, so it was nice while it lasted imo. Of course he wasn’t completely happy during that time, and I don’t see why he would’ve allowed himself to become as rusty as he supposedly did. That to me is probably what made the whole domesticated Dean such a stink in many fans eyes. According to him, he kept trying to find a way to free Sam, why wouldn’t he have also kept his skills up. Especially since he’s been training for nearly his entire life. Was is just a way to keep him and the Campbells from being instant bosom buddies? I get that Christian (whom I hated even though I like Nemec)was possessed the entire time so there’s no way he would’ve liked Dean to begin with, but the rest were nearly as bad towards him.

    As many have pointed out here, a lot of this is due to bad writing or exposition. I’ve watched a couple of the behind the scene commentaries while re-watching the seasons and one of the comments that were made is that a lot of ideas gets lost from the time the original draft of a script was written to the final production/output that we see. Maybe Dean’s hunter senses and skills got left on the cutting floor for half of that season.

    Comment by Stone120 — June 11, 2012 @ 3:14 am

  704. @ Stone #120 #703: What we were told was Dean’s story in S6 was to be a ‘soldier’ who couldn’t function in normal society similar to the movie The Hurt Locker. We saw one scene of that — the opening scene in Exile on Main Street where we learned that Dean was not happy in his normal life. From there, Dean’s story became a dark romance — he truly loved Lisa and Ben (with Lisa even getting her very own special character montage scene), but he was doomed never to have her and her kid.

    We were told Dean was ‘rusty,’ but we never were shown that throughout the season. If anything, it was Souless Sam that made major mistakes and wasn’t a good hunter. He was efficient in killing, like a robot, but that’s all — no instincts, no good judgment, no moral basis for killing evil.

    Dean didn’t learn anything about why he hunts, except that he could not be in Lisa and Ben’s life, could not retire, and (once again) could not protect those he loves. Why? Because the supernatural would always come after him. He is doomed to be a brutal killer, not fit to sit at normal people’s table, and he was once again betrayed by someone he loved (Cas).

    The story had nothing to do with Sam, Sam and Dean’s relationship, or that he was good or bad at hunting. The ghouls came after him, he discovered Sam wasn’t human without his soul, Lisa dumped him, so he had to get Sam’s soul back. He did. Wrap up the Lisa/Ben crap. The end. The season went to Cas.

    Well, there was one other episode that reminded us of how Dean has always wanted a normal family life and how important family was to Dean in the middle of all of that mess and before they turned the season over to Cas’s betrayal — My Heart Will Go On.

    I absolutely hated S6, hated Lisa/Ben, hated both Sam and Dean’s storylines, hated SG’s idea of what and who Dean’s character is (and Sam’s, too, really), and hated that Cas was given a season. I particularly hated that she turned the show from horror/drama to two seasons of soap opera fare.

    I hated S7, because SG floundered around with both Sam and Dean’s characters. It’s like her S6 ideas for them didn’t work out, so she had no idea what to do with them in S7, so devoted the season to other characters — characters that were supposed to be funny, cute, and/or quirky, but had no place in the SPN-verse.

    And, honestly, if you look at both seasons Sam and Dean, S7 did a bigger disservice to their characters. S7 Sam and Dean were both not functioning as particularly good hunters throughout most of S7. They were making mistakes, they were really dumbed down in favor of showcasing other characters, they didn’t trust each other, and Dean unexplainably froze up a couple of times for reasons that were never clear (the Krissy and Emma thing).

    In his core, Dean is not a family man to me. Rather, he is a caregiver…something he was trained to do since age 4. He is a caregiver that is a caregiver to strangers because he wants to spare them the the loss of home, family, and a normal life like he suffered, caring about saving loved ones for people to spare them these losses, having a deep loyalty to your immediate family and to the memories of that family, and being selfless in caring for others, than it is to be shown as being in love, wanting to be married with a kid or two, and living the life of everyday humans.

    To me, while Sam’s story was always connected to the mytharc and driving the story, it was this caregiver role that provided the power and the heart to the series. We cared, because Dean cared. While Sam and John were driven by revenge to overcome the supernatural (and we all wanted them to kill the evil), Dean was driven by love, as seen through his unwavering devotion to John and, particularly, Sam.

    Contrasting that love and devotion with the idea that Dean was extremely dangerous because he had spent all but four years of his life being trained as a hunter and a protector is what made Dean a very interesting character. S6 and the Lisa love story did not explore any of these aspects of Dean or why he continued to hunt. (In fact, after Dean got Sam’s soul back, I never did understand why they both didn’t just quit hunting. There was never a reason given as to why they continued.)

    To me, this is what SG destroyed when she sidelined Dean off with her residual character, Lisa. She destroyed the emotional power behind the series, and I think it did tremendous damage to the show.

    I wouldn’t worry too much about the Phoenix thing. I don’t think it will ever be brought up again, and I only pointed it out as another lost opportunity for the show to be consistent and as something that could have been used to give the brothers a more prominent role in the season.

    Comment by Sheri — June 11, 2012 @ 4:55 am

  705. @Sheri – Until very recently (as in a couple of months ago), and bar a couple of forays into the CW lounge (which I found to be very discouraging), I never looked at the behind the scene world of SPN. So everything I know is from following the series from day 1. I mention this is response to the comment “What we were told was Dean’s story in S6 was to be a ’soldier’ who couldn’t function in normal society”. In that case, I see where your grievance with the way things panned out is. We didn’t see a soldier who couldn’t function in normal society. In fact Dean seemed to be doing fine, except for his angst over Sam. Then again, in the past, Dean has always been able to fake “fitting in”.

    So, without knowing what was supposed to be going on and focusing on what I “thought” was going on, the Lisa/Ben/Dean story was welcomed by me. Although, I can’t say I liked the way they ended it. Lisa dumped him because he didn’t open up about what was going on with him. I thought that was very badly done considering how open they made it seem that Dean was about the hunting part of his life. I don’t even want to start on the making them forget him part of the story.

    As for the hunting parts. Yeah, I see what you meant about Soulless Sam. He was efficient, he was a good fighting machine, he was definitely ruthless, but he did lack the things that made SAM a great hunter. I didn’t understand why even Bobby made the comment that Soulless Sam was a better hunter than Dean.

    Truthfully, I watched S7 more with an eye for what was going on with Sam and his broken wall and Dean’s depression. They’ve both changed since S4, but they were never as dark as this past season and I have to admit that most of my attention was focused on that. I was waiting for Dean to smile/laugh, to make one of his outrageously inappropriate remarks, waiting for Sam to crack, etc.

    But yeah, they did seem to be off their game hunting wise. Maybe it was supposed to show just how mentally tired. I don’t know. The Krissy thing was the most perplexing to me. He went in strong, had the first bmf down, than Krissy comes flying in and they ended up being saved by some 14(?) year old girl on her first hunt. That whole deal was just ridiculous. I didn’t see him as freezing in the Emma situation. Maybe I need to watch the episode again, but I stopped worrying the moment he pulled that gun out on her. I didn’t share Sam’s concern that Dean was trying to get himself killed or maybe it was that he wouldn’t fight to save himself. I wasn’t too clear on what exactly Sam was worried about, whether Dean was suicidal or that Dean had no more fight left in him. Maybe they’re the same thing.

    Comment by Stone120 — June 11, 2012 @ 10:50 am

  706. @ Stone120: “What we were told was Dean’s story in S6 was to be a ’soldier’ who couldn’t function in normal society”.

    I made this statement based on JA interviews at Comic Con that year. Obviously, this is how JA envisioned his storyline early in S6 and; obviously, it didn’t pan out to his liking, because he has been gentlemanly critical of that season.

    At Comic Con before S7, JA said he didn’t really have a story and, as it turned out, he was right. Depression is not a story — it is a human condition. Likewise with Sam. Being nuts, or suffering from psychosis, is not a story, either. It is another human condition, and neither have any connection to the supernatural (the Levi’s in this case). I’m not even sure that having hallucinations is considered a psychotic condition — not up on medical stuff like that — but SG said in various interviews that Sam would be suffering a psychotic breakdown in S7.

    Like you, I didn’t think Dean froze in the Emma scene when I first watched it, but in thinking about it now, I’m not sure that he wasn’t supposed to have, and that is why Sam made the kill and bitched Dean out in the car, asking him not to get killed.

    The reason I’m unsure now is that the one thing I think that came out in the show following that episode is that Dean seemed to give up his suicidal thoughts (him grumpedly telling Sam that he’d try not to get killed) and the story then turned towards GhostBobby, Cas coming back, and the last episode when they took on Dick.

    As far as Lisa dumping Dean in S6, I didn’t see that as Dean wouldn’t open up to her about what was going on. She told him that as long as Sam was in his life, he would never be happy, meaning with her or anybody else. I can’t remember for sure, but I think she also said something along the line that as soon as Sam showed up, she knew it was over between them.

    One thing that I thought was going on in S7 that nobody has mentioned is that I got the feeling that Dean didn’t, or still doesn’t, trust Sam as far as he can throw him. I don’t know if it was intentionally written that way or not. I think it was probably just the way the overall season’s episode turned out, more than being an intentional angle the show took because of all the broken trust Dean has suffered from everybody he ever considered family.

    Comment by Sheri — June 11, 2012 @ 2:10 pm

  707. Would it have been mistrust due to past transgressions or a result of Sam’s anti-crazy wall being down? They didn’t address it that much, but Dean knew Sam was having visions of Lucifer and hell, so him trusting Sam unconditionally wouldn’t have been a smart thing to do. Not because he’s afraid that Sam would stab him in the back but because he didn’t and couldn’t know to what extent the visions were affecting Sam mentally and emotionally. From some of the dialogue in a couple of episodes, it was apparent that they discussed the whole wall is down thing off-screen, but it seemed so casual with a dose of “it’s not a big deal” attitude. They both seemed too tired to worry about the whole thing. That’s another drop story line to tell you the truth. What happened to all the angst about how Sam could die at any moment if the wall came down. Castiel was so adamant about the consequences of putting Sam’s soul back into him, the whole “his soul felt like shredded cheese or was it swiss cheese” and the “if you wanted to kill your brother you should have down it in a quicker way” (or something to that effect) speech made it all seemed so dire. And then we got half a minute of Sam passing out in S6, which felt like 3 weeks to him, as the only clue as to how bad things could get. Realistically, Sam shouldn’t have been able to function as well as he seemed to do in the first dozen or so episodes after Castiel brought down his wall. I don’t know if the “You let me in and now I’m a permanent guest in your noggin” situation was supposed to address that aspect of things. The episode (where Dean was kidnap by that serial killer wannabe) in which Sam actually acknowledged Lucifer on a one to one level was when he really started to unravel. On a side note, I thought the guy who played Nick/Lucifer did a really good job in that role.

    My comment about Lisa is based on the fact that the vampire-Dean incident seemed to be the straw that broke the camel’s back. Obviously, there was already some deep seated resentment over Sam’s return from her side, but we never saw that until that whole “the whole truth and nothing but the truth” spell that Dean got caught up in. He never explained that he wasn’t himself and that pushing Ben so hard wasn’t intentional. Although, that little event didn’t seem to matter that much when they met up again in the mannequin episode. But my point is, before those two episodes, they played her as this “soldier’s wife bravely sitting at home waiting for her man to come back from the war, giving him encouragement and letting him know that they were at home waiting for him”. Then suddenly, it’s like she did a complete 180. I almost expected a “me or him” ultimatum.

    Geez. If you look too closely at all the episodes, there’s a million and one thing that you could find that doesn’t add up. To be fair, there’s not enough time (I think 41 minutes is the average length of the episodes) to go into minute details about all the things going on. It seems like they only take care of the bigger “bigger” picture storylines. The little details that makes us so invested in the characters gets lost in the shuffle.

    Comment by Stone120 — June 12, 2012 @ 5:40 am

  708. My advice to people would be to not read interviews, etc. re: the upcoming season b/c it will never pan out the interview suggests. For instance, Sera said Sam’s solution to his hallucinations work bring about even more problems than the hallucinations themselves. HAHAHAHAHAHA! Many of us foolishly speculated and got our hopes up for something interesting to happen w/r/t Sam’s wall falling. Boy were we in for a shock! As far as Sera’s interview is concerned . . . . .

    Huh? What the heck was she talking about b/c that NEVER panned out ON-SCREEN! Maybe, in her mind, she had some grandiose ideas but I got zilch. The same goes for the “Dean’s hunting skills are rusty” storyline in Season 6. I NEVER saw Dean being off his game or having “rusty” skills. To me, he hunted just as well as he always had. Yes, Christian made some snarky comments to him, but who is Christian? Who cares what he says or thinks, and I say that as someone who quite enjoyed Christian (and Corin Nemec).

    Dean was never off his game or rusty in Season 6. Sam’s solution caused him ZERO problems. I think it’s best to just watch w/no preconceived ideas about the upcoming storylines. Half of what these people say doesn’t pan out.

    Comment by Lisa1 — June 12, 2012 @ 9:53 am

  709. That’s what I’ve been doing for the past 7 years. Maybe that’s why I’ve not been overly disappointed with the show. Are there things I wish they would’ve expanded on more, yeah. But that’s true of a lot of shows that I watch. So I just enjoy watching the boys and hope that they don’t put them through too much crap.

    Someone mentioned that the season finale could’ve been the series finale. Man would that have sucked! I thought Swan Song was the series finale, but atleast we saw that Sam was back among the living, or atleast assumed that he was. Of course I didn’t know about the soul-less story than.

    Comment by Stone120 — June 13, 2012 @ 5:29 am

  710. @stone120: I agree with you that if the series ended with this past finale, that would have sucked big time. To end a show with that kind of cliffie is just so wrong. Season 5 finale felt more like a series end than any other season ending.

    I guess I watch the show like you. I don’t read interviews or pay attention to the comic coms or watch out for spoilers so I rarely have any preconceived idea what is going to happen in the upcoming season. Except that now that I have been visiting here, I’m seeing some posters posting what they’ve read in interviews and hope it won’t change how I watch the show. I’ve been enjoying the ride for quite a few years now. And sure, I’ve been really disappointed at how some story lines have been dropped for Dean, wishing TPTB would expand on them more. I’m going to watch season 8 without paying to much attention to what some interviews have said what is going to happen because from what understand is those spoilers rarely actually happen.

    Comment by twinster — June 13, 2012 @ 10:03 am

  711. @Twinster – I’m with you. I don’t want to know what will happen. It’s so much more fun for me going in blind. I barely even watch the previews at the end of the episodes.

    I’m almost (not quite, but almost) ashamed to say I didn’t know about the comic com appearances. I thought only a couple of shows did them. I’ve only watched the older ones for SPN online, so there have been no spoilers for me, lol.

    Comment by Stone120 — June 14, 2012 @ 3:17 am

  712. I know what you mean, stone120. I’m not up on comic com appearances (maybe because they are never anywhere near I live). I try to stay away from spoilers, but sometimes it hard especially on the boards when someone lets out a major spoiler. I love as you say, “going in blind” not knowing what is going to happen. Makes it more fun.

    Comment by twinster — June 14, 2012 @ 8:34 am

  713. Wouldn’t it be funny if the slinky that Sam gave Dean turned out to be magical, and could be used to get Dean out of Purgatory?

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