“LARP and the Real Girl” Discussion
Charlie is back in a LARP-filled episode! Post your thoughts. Check out my full recap HERE or keep reading for my quick thoughts.
I love a good comedy episode, and this was it. This was a total nerd-fest, complete with the scene of Felicia Day making out with a hot fairy chick. I’m sure that scene will become quite memorable for many fanboys.
I also appreciate that this show respects Felicia Day. She’s amazingly talented and very funny and cool, and on this show she’s given great material and treated like a top-notch guest star. She gets all the good lines (”Call me maybe”). And she got to save the day.
Plus we got to see Dean’s nerdy side. His love of weapons, battle strategy and female porn stars made him and Charlie seem like twins. You have to love him.
It was also a nice follow-up episode to the big choices of last week as it worked thematically to deal with leaving your real life worries behind and indulging in a little fake fun.
Finally, I’ve decided to double-down on my incredibly stupid and not-at-all possible theory that Naomi is actually an alien. Maybe the fact that Charlie was the Queen of Moondoor has some significance to the season. It’s like a door to the moon, a passageway to outer space. I know I’m wrong, but I like finding little clues to try and support my dumb idea.
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This show kills me. Especially that ending scene. I just literally fell to the floor laughing.
Dean calls Sam the geeky one, but we all know the truth.
Comment by pinky — January 23, 2013 @ 6:59 pm
Funniest line of the episode:
“Is that the speech from–?”
“It’s the only one he knows.”
Otherwise, it was surprisingly not bad.
Comment by G-Dawg — January 23, 2013 @ 7:08 pm
The Winchesters kicked a$$ all over moondoor. This episode was fun all the way through. This was spn funny.
Comment by AW — January 23, 2013 @ 7:08 pm
Well, that was kind of totally awesome. The only thing that could have made it better is a little more Cas. Oh, and I don’t like them trying to make Dean/Benny a thing. For one thing nobody is ever going to seriously ship it - I mean, what would they call it - ‘Denny’? ‘Bean’? Please.
I love Felicia day more every time I see her. She definitely needs to come back.
Let me also take this opportunity to mention a couple things that have been nagging at me about Torn&Frayed.
1. Samandriel wasn’t encircled by holy fire. So why didn’t he just turn invisible and walk away. Or teleport away. Or leave his vessel. If demons can do it, shouldn’t angels be able to?
2. Why would torturing a vessel even bother an angel. OK in an earlier epi they were torturing Samandriel with an angel blade - and those can kill angels, so it made sense. But in torn and frayed, they were just screwing into his skull. The angel is a multidimensional wave of celestial intent - that shouldn’t even have touched the angelic being. Otherwise the demons would have been doing that all along.
3. Why would touching metal to a part of a human vessel elicit enochian, much less the ‘angel operating system’ the angel isn’t storing that info in the human brain. (The whole thing was a little too much like a sloppy remake of the possession scene in Ghostbusters.)
4. Why did they have Cas totally freak out. It was completely OOC.
This was a good epi. But the last one? The more I think about it, the more I hate it.
Comment by t1gerlilly — January 23, 2013 @ 7:18 pm
ummmmmmm-not a supernatural show that i got invested in. it wasn’t a bad episode for any show that is on tv-but it had so many wtf moments for me that i am about done with this show.
first wtf-dean wrong again-no one knows or cares what he had to leave behind and what that meant to him. once again its sam who gets the pitty. pitty from the writers, from dean, from charlie. boo hoo.
second wtf-dean=maiden -feed that fringe of the fandom again.
third wtf-sam gets a girl hit, charlie gets multiple girl hits -plus a make out scene. dean gets nothing??? feed the fringe of the fandom once again.
forth wtf-garth has gps on all hunters and dishes out the assignments. winchesters can’t do anything on their own anymore i guess.
i could go on but i am so disgusted-can’t do it. i thought jensen was protective of his character dean. from what i have seen lately-they are trashing dean in every way. from his manliness, to his inner soul of who dean is, to his loyality ect… one or two more episodes and i think i am done. with a heavy heavy heart.
only funny part that i laughed out is when dean pulled the real gun out and shot it to prove it was real. flash back to the dean i used to know. i’m done now.!
Comment by animal — January 23, 2013 @ 7:25 pm
thats “out loud”.
Comment by animal — January 23, 2013 @ 7:25 pm
Got our answer – Dean was the dick for sending the text and poor little Sam has no responsibility and is justifiably self-righteous and pissy…and no mention of Dean in fae land.
Not impressed with the direction or writing, Braveheart or no Braveheart. Very pedestrian and not funny. I believe Robbie Thompson has replaced Adam Glass at the bottom of my writer’s list. Dean was a caraciture between court jester and an action figure and placed firmly back in S1 with babying poor little Sammy
I liked the setting, the idea of a Ren Fair, and the Braveheart speech was funny. Interesting that Sam connected to the blond better than he was ever shown with Amelia. I guess him passing up a one-night stand redeems him from his adulterer fling…you know, with the married woman that was cheating on her war hero husband.
I’m thinking the show has pretty much ran it’s course.
Comment by Sheri — January 23, 2013 @ 7:41 pm
Get over it people. Dean was wrong to do what he did, that’s what the writers intended the audience to think. I know your Dean girl goggles won’t let you see it but that’s the way it is. Sorry this show is not about glorifying everything he does, putting him on a pedestal and trashing Sam. You guys are just obsessed with hating the show and only liking one character. How exhausting that must be.
And as for Dean, I don’t really think you can complain much when he got to dress up for almost the whole episode when Sam only got 20 seconds, got to bond with the guest star and even open up about his feelings as usual, while Sam only got to do the research…but what else is new?
Comment by O — January 23, 2013 @ 7:47 pm
@8 yeah o-like sam wasn’t a dick for handcuffing dean to the radiater and leaving him right??? or for not looking for dean when he disappeared right??? or for coming between amelia and her husband right??? yea-i am not strictly a dean person- but right now actually i hate both dean and sam and how they are being portrayed. an i am hating supernatural even more.
Comment by animal — January 23, 2013 @ 7:56 pm
I can’t believe Dean fans here are complaining…When mostly 8-11 was heavy Charlie scenes and Dean scenes and Dean scenes with Charlie ..while Sam was sent away…at least it wasn’t Dean sending Sam away to fetch him a soda, or some pie.
Comment by ozzie — January 23, 2013 @ 7:57 pm
Wow, the Dean fans here are really looking like Dean stans. From the discussion I’ve seen in here, I thought people would have more sense than just extreme fangirl attitudes. A tv show will not just cater to only one character and present him as a flawless human being who’s toes should NEVER be stepped on or feathers even remotely ruffled. It’s like the Dean girl Dictatorship here apparently since he’s the only one that seems to matter. What a terrible attitude. Enjoy being disappointed.
Comment by Leon — January 23, 2013 @ 7:57 pm
You know what? Ok, it drifted from what the main story line is but it looked like they had fun doing it. It made me laugh. Real life can be so serious and often times so devastating. Sometimes you just need a break. I was entertained. No bad posts to fans on either side of the argument. I like all of you guys because you have a vested interest in the show and that’s why you write in. I really liked Sam playing dress up in the last scene. It’s about time. Thanks all.
Comment by barnkat — January 23, 2013 @ 8:11 pm
Robbie Thompson may have rehabilitated himself from the abomination that was “Bitten.” Loved this one (humor, brothers together, no angels, the guys in costume, “I rescue the damsels in distress”). OK, everyone figured out “who done it” but who cares.
By the way, SPN scored a 0.5 rating on one of its TNT morning showings this week. They are showing Season 2 - tied with Season 3 as my favorite.
Comment by RS — January 23, 2013 @ 8:43 pm
In case you don’t follow ratings, a 0.5 (for a rerun on another channel) is better than some CW shows get for an original showing. It probably doesn’t mean anything, but it makes me happy for our show.
Comment by RS — January 23, 2013 @ 8:53 pm
Wow, the personal attacks are already beginning and this post has just started. I noticed all the attacks are against people who defend Dean. At least they were as of now. Now, what does that say about some of the Samfanatics here? Why do people get so angry? Really? Sam did plenty of “dick” things and never apologized. Dean did all the apologizing and admitting he acted like a “dick”. People just want to understand why Sam never has to own up to his bad behavior, where Dean has. Just because the writers didn’t address it, doesn’t mean Sam was in the right and Dean in the wrong. Both brothers did some questionable things and both should own up to it (well, one has, we are just waiting for the other to do so).
T1gerlily, I don’t think the writers were shipping Dean and Benny. A close friend break up can be really heartbreaking. I have a brother who had a best friend that we say he “divorced”. There was no shipping there, just heartache that they can no longer be friends. It hurt both dearly. I should know, I was put in the middle with both calling me, telling me their side of the story. Dean did leave someone he cared for behind and he knows he did it so he could work and be with Sam.
I enjoyed the ep a lot. I thought it was funny. I thought Sam was actually having good time researching with the chick. Loved that Dean and Charlie really seemed to hit it off. I really noticed how tall Dean is while watching this ep when he was walking around with Charlie. The whole hand-maiden thing, I thought it was funny. Didn’t see it as a slur to Dean’s manliness. If he were dressed as a “hand-maiden” then perhaps. But he was dressed in chainmail. I’d love to have Dean as my hand-maiden, sigh. The whole Braveheart speech, the face paint, wig and what not was hysterical. I was really getting into to it to, and then, the blue frisbee!!! LOL! I’m glad both brothers got to have a bit of fun in the end. Looking forward to the next episode. Still absolutely love Supernatural.
Comment by twinster — January 23, 2013 @ 8:54 pm
Well, I did not like it. Reminded me way TOO much of a lame Stargate episode. And SN is SO much Better than Stargate ever was.
Didn’t mind Charlie. I think she interacted well Dean and Sam. But I knew who the killer was from the moment I saw him and there was absolutely nothing scary about this episode at all. I wonder why they call it Supernatural when so often it has forgotten what supernatural is.
Yes, I will admit, I hated Dean apologizing once again to Sam. It was disgusting. But I was glad to have Sam back again. I missed him.
I did like in the beginning when Dean wanted to take a day off and for the two of them go to have some “fun” together. Of course then Garth called and “fun” went out the window. And I did like when Dean and Charlie got wrapped up in the stragety battle moves and Sam looked at them like they were crazy. THAT was funny.
My husband called this episode “fluff”. I guess that is a polite way of looking at it. I looked at it and saw how much the quality of the series has declined over the years. There was just nothing there. No substance; no depth.
For me it was an unnecessary episode. I didn’t need a “laugh”. I guess I just want there to be some MEANING behind this season and I have not found it yet.
So all you name-callers out there can go ahead and attack me because I was not impressed. I was disappointed. After such a lousy episode last week I would have liked to have a good rebound this week. Didn’t get it.
Hope next week is better.
And tigerlilly: You made some valid points about last week’s episode. Just more reasons why I hated it.
Comment by SL — January 23, 2013 @ 8:59 pm
SL, I’m sorry you didn’t enjoy tonight’s episode, but that is your privilege. I just don’t like seeing posters here get so nasty already. I mean, WTF is that all about? Seems like some of the Samfans from some of the sites roxi visits have come here to trash Dean fans just because a couple of us have mentioned that we were not happy with Dean once again admitting to his wrong doing, and Sam not saying anything about his jerk moments. I wish people could keep their posts civil. I mean, it is one thing to criticize a character on a fictional tv show, but to to verbally attack posters because of their opinions? Really?
Comment by twinster — January 23, 2013 @ 9:10 pm
The ‘you awful Dean fans’ is not the point. The point is that Sam CHOICE to leave Amelia FOR THE HUNT, not because of the text Dean sent. But this week it’s all Dean’s fault that he kept poor hurt Sammy from his married girlfriend…you now, the one married to the war hero.
The point is that Dean’s BFF and Sam’s friend, Cas, was BLEEDING TEARS and going to Heaven, a place he felt would do him in if he returned to, and not one mention of Cas.
The point is that Dean gave up, not just Benny, but his moral core; loyalty and integrity, FOR THE HUNT, and Benny is now totally unimportant. So I ask, why even have the Purgatory sub-plot and an entire episode dedicated to Benny’s backstory?
And why is that all ignored? One reason: So Sam can suffer the worst pain ever…once again…and it’s all MeanDean’s fault for sending Sam the text. Nothing else in Citizen Fang matters. Sammy’s feelings are hurt and it’s Dean’s fault.
They took all the character growth from Dean away with this one episode and we’re back to S1 Dean.
Now, why that makes me mad is because Carver gave us the whole spiel about the brothers maturing and learning that they were two separate individuals who could still love each other and work together. What character growth Dean achieved is gone, and Sam has no hope of ever growing as a character if all he ever does is have the WORSE PAIN EVER. When hasn’t he in the last 8 years?
And quite frankly, when it comes through on-screen that Sam is getting it on better with a very minor support character (the blond) than he ever did with Amelia, it’s hard to take anything serious about this whole season.
Comment by Sheri — January 23, 2013 @ 9:18 pm
Sheri: No going to disagree at all. There is SO much wrong with this season. And I blame Carver for that. From the very First episode of this season he did everything he could to destroy the relationship between the brothers. Now why the hell- as a new showrunner- would you start off your “reign” by ripping apart the two main characters? What the heck came from that? What purpose did it serve?
I don’t know where the season is going (this episode did nothing at all to move it forward) but for me Carver has failed on the same level as Sera did. Both of them took a perfectly grounded series and two popular and established characters and ripped it all apart- for nothing.
I don’t hate the show and I don’t hate Sam but,in regards to the show, I do hate Carver.
Comment by SL — January 23, 2013 @ 9:27 pm
Sheri, I agree with you. They bring back the faeries and Dean doesn’t even mention his little visit to Fae Land. What is that about? Dean should have been all over that. There could have been some great comedic moments with that. Oh, well.
Comment by Jake — January 23, 2013 @ 9:34 pm
I’m not big on episodes like this, but it was good to see some team work again.
I honestly take Charlie convo with Dean as a grain of salt. She only know half of the story. In Dean always feel he has 2 take on the burden even way back. He always had that program in his head.
I’m like that with my sis, even tho I know she was just as much to blame for me breaking that vast I take full responsibility for it habit.
I would like Sam character by the end of this season to also see where his bro is coming from. Sam should know Dean took a hit too.
Sam and Dean both did questionable things this season. So I don’t wan’t one to get whitewashed over the other.
Comment by Lisa2 — January 23, 2013 @ 9:37 pm
I am so done with Carver. It is his job to at least have the scripts makes sense. He is no better than SG in any respect. His character development is nil (unless you consider trashing of your leads as some sort of character development), his love story is worse than the Dean/Lisa one, his plots are not development, his pacing is atrocious, and apparently he doesn’t check to see if there’s any consistency between scripts.
I cannot believe that Carver went from the brothers making their own choices so that they were in the hunt “together,” to blaming Dean for Sam loosing any chance of ‘normal,’ and happiness because Dean is mean … and that’s not even getting into developing the character (and Amelia is his character) of a married, bitchy, vet with a drinking problem being the love of Sam’s life and something he never had before.
I am reminded of Hunteri Heroici, where Sam’s flashbacks were all bright fuzzy lighting and his conversation with Fred while in Fred’s mind that clearly showed that Sam was living a lie and led a good many fans and bloggers to speculate that Sam had had a breakdown or was even in a mental institution. What was the point of that entire episode when in Citizen Fang, Sam was all truly in love with her.
Perhaps the writers don’t read each other’s scripts, but Carver is sure as hell supposed to be giving final approval over them. That’s his job.
I wouldn’t say this episode was totally pointless, though. I think it clearly established that Garth and Charlie will become permanent recurring characters which, in and of itself, shows me what he thinks of SPN.
Comment by Sheri — January 23, 2013 @ 9:53 pm
That last scene made me laugh so hard…haven’t done that since The French Mistake. Felt great! And did anyone catch the aliases Sam and Dean used? Taggert and Rosewood … Beverly Hills Cop, bitches! Awesome.
Comment by Salchan — January 24, 2013 @ 12:20 am
@22 ITA. Carver is a disappointment.
Comment by ORLY — January 24, 2013 @ 12:21 am
“A tv show will not just cater to only one character and present him as a flawless human being who’s toes should NEVER be stepped on or feathers even remotely ruffled. ”
Really? Then how do they manage to do that for Saint Sammy Who Can do No Wrong and needs both everyone including near strangers to smack his brother around for not treating him like the special snowcone that he thinks he is?
Comment by Nico — January 24, 2013 @ 1:42 am
The thing for me is not so much that there were good things and bad things about the script, it’s the fact that the script was so obviously written specifically for Felicia Day. There was no intent here to further the story along or to develop either of the two leads’ character — they were just shoehorned in, because they had to be. In other words, the J2s were pimped to the viewers.
I think that point is made pretty obvious by the fact that the writers decided to play up the lesbian angle as a means to showcase Charlie and forget about Dean’s prior fairy realm experience. Otherwise, logically, the fairy would have sought out Dean. And to further the point, the Dean Winchester that lives in this viewer’s head would never casually discuss his and Sam’s latest fractured relationship issues with a one-off girl…Bobbie, maybe…Charlie Day, met briefly on one case, never.
And, of course, that makes me wonder if Sam and Dean are so depleted as characters that the writers are forced to find ways to use the leads while they write stories specifically for support characters (and I’m thinking of Bitten and a whole episode of Benny’s backstory, not to mention S7).
Comment by Sheri — January 24, 2013 @ 3:05 am
@SL - I’ve blamed Carver from the beginning. Sam can’t acknowledge or apologize for things if the writers don’t think he has anything to apologize for. It’s really that simple.
I’m a bi-bro fan who definitely doesn’t appreciate the way Sam’s been thrown under the bus, but there’s nothing I can do about it. It is what it is.
Comment by Lisa1 — January 24, 2013 @ 4:14 am
Re:larping. “I’m agent Taggart, this is agent Rosewood”. I liked that reference.
Comment by axel — January 24, 2013 @ 4:37 am
Hey to all you folks accusing Dan fans if wanting the show to cater to him, I just have to scratch my head. From what I’ve seen, SPN has ALWAYS catered to Sam. And where the hell is Dean being put on a pedestal? In this season, he is being blamed for everything, the show and even freakin guests stars on calling him out on exactly ONE dick move,Charlie even says Sam lost his love because of Dean (WTF?), and he has to apologize, but Sam isn’t being asked to apologize for a damn thing he did to Dean, nor does he seem to feel any remorse. And about what Charlie said, did I just hallucinate last episode where Dean was ENCOURAGING Sam to go back to Amelia? I must have been, because according to Charlie, Sam left Amelia because of Dean. I guess what really happened is that Dean held a gun on Sam and made him give up his married girlfriend. Ok.
And of course, we must emasculate Dean, while as always, women find only Sam hot. That entire park full of women and I’m supposed to believe that not one of them checked Dean out. Charlie, sure, but of course never Dean, as SPN seems to think that there is only one man in this show that any woman would find gorgeous.
So again, tell me, how exactly does SPN put Dean on a pedestal and cater to him?
Of course, I already know that my stating all this somehow translates to hating Sam. I have to love everything he does, and never complain about how shitty I think SPN is treating the character of Dean, or ,you know, I’m a Sam hater.
Comment by roxi — January 24, 2013 @ 4:46 am
I liked the episode. I liked that Dean had some humor after so much angst. Dean apologized for sending the jerky text, and I interpreted Sam suggesting they do the LARP at the end as his own silent apology. Even though he wasn’t with Dean the whole time, he still noticed how interested Dean was in it. I think you guys are forgetting that part, that Sam face painted himself and had fun with his brother. He could have brooded in the car, but he didn’t. I think that part was part of the character growth, personally.
Comment by Laurel — January 24, 2013 @ 5:11 am
That’s a good point Laurel, and I’m sorry I came across a little strong, but to me, Dean has really been getting crappy treatment from the SPN writers and I guess it just bugs the hell out of me.
Comment by roxi — January 24, 2013 @ 5:25 am
Roxie (#29) Good Post. I agree completely.
Comment by SL — January 24, 2013 @ 6:18 am
Don’t get me wrong, there were some parts of the episode that weren’t too bad. Sam didn’t actually treat Dean too bad here. But still, the whole blaming Dean for the choice that Sam freely made on his own tainted it for me, as well as it having to be Sam that gets hit on by a pretty girl even after he just had a love story. Every woman on here is always automatically attracted to Sam, even Becky. It’s like the SPN writers can’t believe that any woman might, heaven forbid, if meeting Sam and Dean together, might actually be more attracted to Dean, as some others may be more attracted to Sam. And even Charlie gets some action and is checked out like mad. I don’t know about anyone else, but if I came across a man that looked like Jensen Ackles I’d be drooling in my beer. And yes, it was a dick move for Dean to send that text, but the things and the way Sam treated Dean for most of this season were also dickish, but nobody’s acting like he owes Dean an apology nor does Sam himself seem to think so.
I’m not beating up Sam. I just would like the SPN writers to stop beating up on Dean.
Comment by roxi — January 24, 2013 @ 7:15 am
I didn’t enjoy this episode. All I could think about was that Carver is trying to find a place or adapt these old characters Dean and Sam, and two 30-something actors, into his CW series for teens.
Felicity Day will undoubtedly be a continuing character because she plays a character that can be interesting to young women in the stage of sexual development; she fits CW. Collins is still around because he has a big teen following, and he has juvenile butt jokes and throws around the f word in interviews so he can remain; his persona is a nasty-mouthed kiddies’ show host–and he plays to the slash crowd, mostly teen girls working on their sexual development. He fits CW in persona and character. The CW hero who is actually the guy who threatens evil and is the object of evil forces is Kevin, who incidentally is played by an young actor who fills the need for diversity. The only really different episode Bitten was a You Tube film typically made in an introductory film class by and for first year college students.Bobby’s been replaced by Garth and even grandfathers when they appear will be young. Carver’s featured players and style is CW–to my surprise.
Carver really doesn’t know what to do with these old characters played by J2. He gave Sam a soap plot that only a typical teen CW viewer hasn’t seen a million times, and Sam fans don’t like that. Dean is given the straight man role to Castiel or Garth or Charlie’s “funny” lines and the dramatic second role to the Benny story, but Dean fans don’t like him playing second fiddle to other characters. J2/Sam and Dean are left to bookend the standalone CW episodes. Besides fight about their latest hurt feelings, like two extremely sensitive teenagers, they have little to do to appeal to a teen audience. Sam can take off his shirt and Dean can model silly costumes; but that’s no long term fix to the problem of these outmoded characters in a CW series. The Winchesters moral level has been reduced to an 8th grade level: “You ditch your girl; I’ll ditch my friend. We are even.” But, two 30-somethings reduced to playground-level morality is simply silly to anyone over 15.
Not really enjoying where Carver is taking the series, but IMO J2 are doing little more than picking up a check to watch a CW series being filmed and appearing often enough to get some viewers who have a celebrity interest in them. SPN was not a CW series; the Winchesters cannot be fitted into one. Carver is finding that out.
Comment by CaseyT — January 24, 2013 @ 7:56 am
Actually, it would be nice if we could all express out opinion without anyone jumping on anyone else and name calling or whatever. The Sam fans have been insulted here too (by some of the same people who are now complaining about it happening to them).
There’s a perception difference in this fandom. Dean fans think the Dean is getting the short end of the stick and Sam fans think that Sam’s dreadful love story means the writers don’t really care about the character enough. And each side sincerely believes it to be true. Neither is wrong; it’s all down to opinion and which character we sympathize with. The problem is when we start attacking each other over a difference of opinion. Sam fans didn’t write Dean’s apology. Dean fans didn’t write Sam’s love story. And the writers believe it or not do not actually want to tick off their viewers and have them stop watching. Sometime it seems like it though.
I think we all (OK most) can agree that we would like a show with good writing for each character.
Comment by jace — January 24, 2013 @ 8:24 am
Well, it wasn’t all bad, but I felt let down because along with my aforementioned complaints, this was really built up to be a funny episode, and mostly, all the funny was in the preview clips we had already seen. The last part with Dean’s speech, and the dude who lost his Frisbee, was funny but mostly, it was a Charlie is so cool and Dean’s a bastard episode.
Comment by roxi — January 24, 2013 @ 8:40 am
Yes jace, I do want that. I guess I just see Dean being written as only important for Sam to feel resentment against and for Cas to have a foil, not important on his own merit nor as deserving of a real love story of his own (however brief). They just seem to keep him around to blame everything on, whether it’s his fault or not.
However, I must remind myself that it’s only a TV show. About half my ranting is colored by just being tired and stressed out as hell with real life crap.
Comment by roxi — January 24, 2013 @ 8:46 am
@ Laurel #30: All lap dogs are given attention occasionally and taken out for exercise once in a while.
@ CaseyT: I agree with you that Carver’s and Pedowitz’s intent is to build the audience with new regular CW viewers and to hell with the viewers that started with the show (which were not in the normal CW graphic).
I still remember Mark P.’s interview where he said that he called in all his writers and told them to write as if they were writing an HBO show and they could draw back if they had to. What we are seeing is not anything close to an HBO series, but it has certainly been dumbed down to a more normal CW series.
Comment by Sheri — January 24, 2013 @ 10:14 am
@ Roxi - are you seriously saying this show has NEVER shown a woman who is attracted to Dean? Are you saying all female characters are ALWAYS ONLY attracted to Sam?
We have seen MANY women who are attracted to Dean. Just because they showed one woman attracted to Sam doesn’t mean Dean’s never being shown as an attractive guy!
Comment by Lisa1 — January 24, 2013 @ 10:18 am
@Sheri. That is a little uncalled for. I don’t even know what bit of my comment you were referring to, but that response was rude.
Comment by Laurel — January 24, 2013 @ 10:18 am
I can’t believe they did it again. AGAIN dean is the only one who has to apologize for hurting poor little Sammy’s feelings as if he himself is made of stone. He doesn’t have a RIGHT to be hurt by Sam’s actions. Or else Sam would give him an ultimatum and threaten him to leave and the writers will just leave it at that because dean is SAM’s handmaiden, He just has to fall to Sam’s little feet and be grateful that Sam is even staying with him. It’s getting ridiculous. As if Sam staying with dean to find out what’s wrong with Cass is a great sacrifice to dean. I thought this season would be different. That Sam would FINALLY be happy to be hunting with his brother but nooooo, I was wrong. Again they made Sam’s choice a GREAT sacrifice, as if staying with dean is like torture for him, and I’m supposed to be happy by Sam choosing dean over Amelia like this. If I knew it was going to be like this I would want Sam to stay with his married girlfriend from the start.
What’s more annoying is that they write dean as if he himself doesn’t think what Sam did was wrong. AGAIN we’re back to season one dean who would do anything and accept all of Sam’s fits, so that Sam would just stay with him. I don’t know how that counts as character growth.
When dean asked Cass to erase Lisa and Ben’s memory, all they EVER said about it was “Dean… not a word Sam…” that’s it. They never ever mentioned it again. But Sam leaving his MARRIED girlfriend is a GREAT sacrifice. I don’t understand these writers any more.
Comment by bahar — January 24, 2013 @ 10:27 am
I miss the Sam that could read dean like an open book. If something was bothering dean, Sam would know from the get go (not some lesbian chick they met for a day a life time ago), and he would care enough to constantly bug dean about it until dean would relent and start to talk. The Sam we’re seeing these last few seasons only cares for himself and nothing more. I mean he KNOWS (damn it he KNOWS) dean is really upset that he didn’t even try to find out what happened to him but instead he says it’s your own problem, go deal with it. He just doesn’t care about dean anymore.
Sam didn’t even look for dean when he needed him and with the way the season is developing, it seems we’re never going to get any explanation for it. We just have to suck it up and be content by their sucky explanation that Sam’s world imploded.
Comment by bahar — January 24, 2013 @ 10:54 am
@ Laurel #40: The comment was not a personal statement about you. It was a statement about what you saw as Sam thinking of Dean and joining in the ‘fun.’ In other words, I didn’t get from the sub-text in the episode that Sam was thinking about Dean in any way. What I got was that Dean is a dick for hurting little Sammy’s feelings and, now that Dean has accepted all blame for the Citizen Fang episode, affirmed by Charlie’s narrative, Dean has basically been put back into the role of Sam’s lap dog. Lap dog, court jester, mega dick, action figure caricature…insert your favorite adjective here…is the role Dean played in this episode.
Comment by Sheri — January 24, 2013 @ 11:24 am
I definitely think Sam participated in the LARPing b/c he knew it would make Dean happy and that it was something Dean wanted to know. Sam definitely noticed how Dean was “into” the LARPing.
That scene at the end w/the boys dressed up was the cutest scene in the episode for me.
Comment by Lisa1 — January 24, 2013 @ 12:06 pm
I think maybe this episode is being to deeply investigated…
Comment by Laurel — January 24, 2013 @ 12:29 pm
Yes let’s give Sam a medal for noticing Dean obviously having fun and finally, finally after spending the entire episode moping over his adulterous manpain, continuing to ignore Dean and being a cold prick as he has been all season, magnanimously gives a suitably repentant Dean permission to have a bit more fun. Sam is the best slave master ever.
Comment by Nico — January 24, 2013 @ 12:32 pm
@CaseyT - If you are going to make sweeping generalizations about fan communities you aren’t a part of - you might want to do a little research first. For one thing, most slash is written by college-educated straight women in their 20’s and 30’s. there are a couple of books and academic papers studying slash and its demographics - or if you want more direct proof - you should check out the petition to make Destiel canon - which has the real names and ages of Destiel shippers and around 30,000 signatures.
Slash has to do with the lack of substantive female characters. Also, thinking through models of more egalitarian relationships without tripping over traditional notions of gender or historical grievances. Plus, interpreting beloved characters within your own life xperience. And, of course, good porn. (Which all those partnered 20- and 30-year-old fans read and then go pounce on their SOs, causing a wave of positive sexual energy to emanate from SPN all around the globe)
Also, I like Felicia because she’s fun, funny, and a good comedic foil. I like the character of Charlie for the same reason she likes the LARP. She’s a female character who’s smart, feisty, can hold her own with the guys, and gets to be the hero of her own story. I still remember being a kid and asking if there were any stories where the princess got to save the prince. Because I’d rather be the one who was rich and got to pick who I married. Even then I knew no one was going to marry me for my love of housework. And SPN just gave me that - good on yer, SPN!
Thanks, Casey, for reminding me of one of the reasons I love the show - originality and the willingness to take risks. Personally, the fact that Charlie is gay is irrelevant to me - but then I’ve had a lot more training than the average straight guy fan - because I’m just as willing to cheer on the male characters I identify with (such as Dean) and hope they get to make out with the hot chick/dude of their dreams.
Comment by t1gerlilly — January 24, 2013 @ 12:36 pm
tigerlilly i don’t want to burst your bubble but out of over 2 million viewers of spn last night , 30,000 on a petition for destiel- is almost 1% of the fandom. destiel belongs on the fringe -on tumbler like i have been saying. they are a mollicule of fans against the rest. i don’t begrudge them thier fantasies. i begrudge them thier flippant attitude that they think they are the majority and should be heard and have done what they want. it ain’t gonna happen.
Comment by animal — January 24, 2013 @ 3:44 pm
I didn’t get an anti-gay message from CaseyT’s post. My personal preference is that before these writers take on any of Hollywood’s latest social engineering messages, they practice on some of the basics first…like decent storytelling, plot development, pacing, continuity; and, first and foremost, decent stories for both leads. Maybe they could even do so little as watch one or two previous episodes to see what the hell they are showing from one episode to the next.
Given the history of how these writers have written women in this show (including SG herself), I would be terrified at the thought of them trying to write on such levels as giving us substantive female role models in egalitarian relationships attempting to correct past traditional notions of gender with the intention of correcting historical grievances while playing against a background of the SUPERNATURAL…monsters, good and evil, modern cowboys traveling the range in their steel horse.
Somehow, I just suspect that that would be a bigger train wreck than Samelia’s story. In fact, I think it would be epic in it’s failure and the very thought of it makes me shudder.
Comment by Sheri — January 24, 2013 @ 4:12 pm
tigerl1lly–I’m not going to be offended by the condescending comment. You should not assume others here here lack academic qualifications in popular culture or acting/drama. I’ve certainly sat through enough sessions at the Popular Culture Association meetings to be familiar with the literature, authorship, and current academic views of slash. That is comes from lack of substantive female roles in popular culture is one view–one view. And I am pleased it had a positive effect on your life. But, there are some concerns. That it is “gay” fiction written by straights is one concern. Is their any authenticity is such a genre or is it straight stereotyping of gay people? That’s a legitimate question. That it often depicts gays a preditory people lusting to “convert” straight people and thus reinforces that old anit-gay stereotype is another concern. I personally don’t care what people write; indeed, I celebrate fee voices. It is however not the sort of genre I enjoy as entertainment. As an academic matter it is interesting in that it poses questions about modern society and particularly women’s issues.
Comment by CaseyT — January 24, 2013 @ 4:49 pm
t1gerlilly–con’t. I said nothing about the authorship; I am fully aware who writes it. I also praised Felicity Day in “The Girl with the Tatto..” and made it clear that I enjoyed her character and her acting.The basic thesis of what I wrote was that Carver is recasting SPN for CW’s target audience; that was my reaction last night.
Don’t want to get into an academic argument here. I think its a great place to interact with people of all ages and backgrounds, a place where you can simply say what you are thinking, not a place to discuss level of generalization, one’s familiarity with current literature, or state your academic background and credentials. Its a fun place for fans and entertainment.
Comment by CaseyT — January 24, 2013 @ 5:01 pm
Lisa, to me, yes, it does seem like a lot more women on SPN, random women, will drool at the sight of Sam. It always seems like the show plays it that way. Not that no female ever likes Dean, but to me, over all, Sam is considered ‘the hunk’ by the SPN writers.
I do find Jared very attractive also, no doubt, but just once I would like to see a woman react, on sight, to Dean the way they react to Sam. The closest I’ve ever seen is that bartender from ‘Defending Your Life’. This is just look it always looks to me, to you it looks different, that’s fine with me.
Comment by roxi — January 24, 2013 @ 5:05 pm
My whole issue is with what I see as a lack of equality on the part of SPN writers towards the characters. So much is being made of Dean’s text,( on other sites they think Dean did the most horrible thing imaginable and he’s a horrible person) and ok yes, it WAS an asshole move. I could qualify it by stating that I feel he was pushed to it by Sam’s actions and attitude, but then I’d be accused of making excuses for him so no, I won’t even give him that. It was just wrong, period. However, it was ONE dick move, and he has apologized for it. Last night showed he genuinely was sorry.
But what about Sam’s actions? I don’t get how SPN and so many Dean detractors seem to believe Sam gets a free pass for the way he treated Dean, not looking for him, showing very little pleasure at finding him alive, his resentment that Dean was hurt about all this, letting Martin knock out and handcuff Dean to a radiator, and just his general attitude against Dean so far. SPN doesn’t seem to think Sam owes an apology to Dean for any of this, because of Dean’s text. I guess I just see Sam’s actions as far worse than that text.
But last night did show Sam’s attitude softening a bit. So maybe, we are on the way to the boys really repairing their relationship. I still feel they’ll need to really talk about everything though. I think Dean understands Sam, but I think Sam needs to understand Dean now, to see how his aforementioned actions really hurt Dean.
Comment by roxi — January 24, 2013 @ 5:35 pm
Sorry, roxi, and I don’t mean to rehash the whole issue, as the writers have made it exceedingly clear what they intend for the audience to think, but I didn’t think the text was a dick move at all. I thought it was quite smart, and I don’t care AT ALL that little fragile Sammy got his feelings hurt.
Actually, I just keep thinking about poor Don and how he would feel if he knew that Sam slept with his wife and that he was Amelia’s safe choice as a husband.
And then I think of Sam yelling at Charlie that she couldn’t leave because “People are dying,” and I wonder whatever happened to “People die all the time, Dean.”
And then I think of those phone calls from Kevin, the 17-year old, over the course of six months and Martin left in the vamp camp, and Elizabeth being terrorized by a hunter forced over the edge, and Benny having his only support system uprooted by Sam/Martin, and Dean being clunked over the head and left laying on the floor, and…
you know what…I don’t give a crap about Sam and his wounded feelings.
I’m not even including not looking for Dean in my thoughts; because, quite frankly, I don’t think Dean needs Sam to hunt with him and he looks like a needy idiot for bowing at the altar of Sammy just to keep Sam happy.
Comment by Sheri — January 24, 2013 @ 6:28 pm
Roxi: Did you watch the first seasons of SPN? Dean was the (to use anachronistic terms) the chick magnet. He was the one with the girl in every port. Sam gave us the bitch face and the eye roll when faced with Dean and the Double Mint twins.
Dean Winchester is one of the most fascinating characters in fiction. He is an onion that the show peeled back the layers with time. He was introduced as a blue collar hunter/romeo. He is “Mr. One Night Stand.” But when he loves, it is with his entire being (John and Sam). He’s Mr. Macho. But it is clear he took over Mary’s role as mother/partner in his youth. That is cannon in “My Time of Dying.” He’s good-old-boy dumb until he’s brilliant. He’s a narcissistic, charming pretty boy, until he’s insecure, depressed and suicidal.
Sheri, will you ever be happy unless Dean is given all of the lines in the show? He’s already being given all the final scenes. Even in “Heart” a Sam episode, whose is the last face we see? Who is the POV from the beginning until now? Who had the most screen time and interaction with the guests? Who got the final talk with John and the final ghost-hug? It wasn’t Sam.
Comment by RS — January 24, 2013 @ 6:33 pm
@RS - No lie, but I was just about to write the same FIRST sentence to Roxi that you did. Reading that made me literally LOL.
@Roxi - Maybe you missed Seasons 1-4, but almost every female they ran into drooled at Dean. Sam was never presented as being into ONS. I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about. Jensen is ridiculously attractive, and Show knows it!
And as far as Sam getting admonished goes . . . it ain’t gonna happen IF the writers don’t think he’s done anything for which to be admonished.
Look, none of us write this show. There’s nothing we can do about the way Sam is written. I’m a bi-bro fan. Do you think I’m happy w/Sam not looking for Dean? No, I’m not but there’s nothing I can do about the way Carver has chosen to tell the story. Absolutely nothing.
If you’re gonna hate Sam, you’re gonna hate him. I guess I’m just tired of reading the same complaints about Sam each week, but no one is forcing me to read this board so y’all are free to complain to your heart’s content.
Don’t mind me!
Comment by Lisa1 — January 24, 2013 @ 6:57 pm
Ok, so this is my last post. In my opinion, this show is about family. And sometimes family gets treated unevenly. It is not about keeping score which brother acted better or worse. Sam may be wallowing a bit this season, but Sam is also the one who was blamed for a season for letting the Devil out of the cage. Cas is the one who opened the detox door, but Dean blamed Sam and it showed. So what? The writers are writing a show about brothers, and real family sometimes treat eachother unfairly.
Comment by Laurel — January 24, 2013 @ 7:28 pm
there are still lines that family shouldn’t cross. There are a lot of gay people who cut off all ties because their families can’t accept something that’s a permanent part of them. Some women and to be fair some men leave their spouse because their spouse cheats on them or beats them or steals their money. The problem is that the show keeps crossing the lines in regards to how Sam treats Dean.
Dean was literally put on trial regarding Amy who was killing people in the present but it’s completely ignored when it comes to Sam’s responsibility in screwing over Benny who had been abstaining. I call bullshit on that. When the hell is Sam going to be put on trial for what he did. Never because that’s just how this show keeps rolling.
Comment by ORLY — January 24, 2013 @ 7:50 pm
@CaseyT - You said specifically
“Collins is still around because he has a big teen following, and he has juvenile butt jokes and throws around the f word in interviews so he can remain; his persona is a nasty-mouthed kiddies’ show host–and he plays to the slash crowd, mostly teen girls working on their sexual development. ”
Why did you say this if you know something about slash fans? I was attempting to offer you information you appeared to be lacking; specifically objective proof, rather than just opinion, because you were factually wrong.
Clearly I was wrong that you were simply ignorant. You say that you clearly knew what you were talking about. I’ll take you at your word. Of course, this means that you were simply spreading misinformation and insulting fellow fans. Good to know.
Incidentally - yes, fanfiction, like all fiction, is vulnerable to all the same social forces as any type of self-expression. Fanfiction has been critiqued for racism, sexism, heteronormativity, homophobia, you name it. I think that’s healthy, because that’s how a community self-regulates and becomes aware. On the specific point that you mentioned, I would challenge you to find ANY slash fic where a gay person is lusting to convert a straight person. I’ve never seen or heard of them. On the other hand, I don’t read non-con - so maybe there is some. Also, at a recent panel I heard a writer talk about her friend who runs a gay publishing house, who said that erotica written by straight women about gay relationships was actually more popular among their gay male readership than that written by gay male authors. When asked why, he said that he thought it was because the female authors focused as much on the relationships between the characters as the sex. So that’s at least one case where ‘authenticity’ was not an issue. Aside from which, no one is stopping gay guys from writing fanfiction - and any number of them do. Hell, I would LOVE it if they started writing het fanfiction. I’m sure I’d get a total kick out of it. Even if they made mistakes, about power relationships or anything else - it would probably be illuminating. I also haven’t found any gay guys objecting - can you point me to a journalist, academician, or blogger complaining about this? I’m one of those people who likes evidence-based conclusions, you see. My assuming you were similar was not condescension, by the way. However, I stand corrected.
@animal - I have never said that slash fans were the majority, I was simply offering CaseyT objective proof of the point I was making. I was explaining that there was a substantial sample size, one that was reasonably statistically significant.
Comment by t1gerlilly — January 24, 2013 @ 7:57 pm
1% isn’t statistically significant in the whole scheme of things.
i am sorry tigerlilly but i am with casey at 100% about collins. which i don’t quite understand how that compares to your gay argument unless if you are projecting the slash fans fantasy on collins. because he is everything that casey said he is. gay though is not one of them. he just is hardup for attention to keep himself on spn and do whatever it takes and will play up to whoever he needs to to get that attention. the destiel fans for one. you said in your post you have never seen someone push a straight man to being gay. however isn’t that exactly what they are doing when they force jensen to answer a destiel question??? to have them legitimize thier stans on the destiel matter??? or (and this could be a lame example) but when they are forcing the very straight character of dean into a nonexistant relationship with sexual connotations with cas??? and want that relationship so badly they do a petition?? especially when jensen in noway wants that for his character???
Comment by animal — January 24, 2013 @ 8:15 pm
@animal - my point was that if he wanted to verify that slash fans are generally in their 20s and 30s he could look at the petition, which includes the name and AGE of the participants. 30,000 people seems like a reasonable size to determine the average age of a self-identified group.
We disagree about Collins. Personally, I think that doing publicity and dealing with fans is a really difficult part of the actors job - and one they get no training for. How would you feel if you had to talk to complete strangers about the people you work with and entertain them, while not saying anything that would get you into trouble - all on less than a full nights sleep. To me that sounds like a nightmare. Everyone deals with it differently. Jensen is a master of evasion and simply not answering questions. Jared just always says the perfect thing. He could definitely go into PR or better yet, politics. (Can you think of a place more in need of pranks than congress)? Misha generally distracts the audience, using wit or outrageous statements to entertain while not getting himself into (too much) trouble. If you don’t like or appreciate that - fine. There are plenty of people who do.
Comment by t1gerlilly — January 24, 2013 @ 10:01 pm
true tigerlilly however the “sample” group is flawed using the petition in that -correct me please if i am wrong i have only been part of one petition online and there was an age limit”-but you could lie about the age so you can “sign” -there was no verifing of age. plus the petition is online which goes world wide therefore the numbers are scewed. but i understand what you are trying to say.
Comment by animal — January 25, 2013 @ 3:33 am
@ RS #55: You’ve been on this board for years and have read my posts. You know, without asking, that Dean is my favored character and that I have never claimed to be bi-bro. You also know that I have never advocated for a show with Dean only speaking into a camera. You know that I have always advocated that both brothers have a story that is brought to conclusion and shows some resolution. You also know that I have never thought there would be a show if both brothers weren’t in it. That goes against the very premise of the show entirely and; therefore, would not be the show that I used to love.
I don’t count how many scenes each brother gets, or how many lines, or hugs, or how much screen time each character is given. That’s ridiculous. You can’t move a story along under that kind of regulation. As a Dean fan, however, I do take note of storylines. Sam has always had a storyline that is brought to conclusion and has some sort of resolution. Dean has not; i.e., my dissatisfaction with the show.
Even this year, Purgatory was not a storyline for Dean. What we saw of it, which was very little, was enjoyable, but it was not a storyline. It was a vehicle used to get Dean out of Purgatory and to bring Cas and the angel storyline back into the picture. They’re here and Purgatory is over.
I will be perfectly clear also in saying that, after this latest episode where four references were made to clearly put Dean back into the Sam’s lap dog role, I am only watching now for JA’s performances, and only because I don’t think he will take on another series when SPN is over…so it’s an ‘enjoy while it’s available’ thing.
I don’t care about Sam’s moping for his lost married lover. I don’t care about Naomi and her mind controlling Sam. I don’t care whether she is an angel or not, or whether she is working for some other big bad out there in the background. I have no investment in Naomi.
We’re a half a season in and I don’t know what the real mytharc is. I don’t care that the brothers are back together in their traditional role of Dean pampering Sam to keep him by his side for the sake of a brotherhood I no longer believe in. The show has made it perfectly clear that Sam lost his bitchy, drunken vet and thoroughly enjoyable ‘normal’ life because Dean was needy and a big meanie and that that was a big sacrifice for Sam to make for the sake of the brotherhood. That may be Carver’s idea of ‘family;’ that they are there to make you miserable and unhappy and there’s no hope for anything good in the future if you are a big damned hero. That’s not my idea and I can’t buy into it.
I like JA’s work and I think there will be little chance of seeing it beyond SPN. That’s as honest and as clear as I can be in my feelings towards the show these days. Maybe Carver can turn that around between now and the end of the season, but I don’t think he has any intention of doing that. I think his idea of these two characters are exactly what EK’s was. Sam is the sensitive hero and Dean is the lap dog. The show could have been so much more than it was; but, instead, it’s a big, big disappointment. But, Dean is being badass this year, as opposed to a houseboy for some random character and he’s not a moping, suicidal drunk who slogs his way through every episode of the season. For me, that is the good part of the show these days, and I can enjoy that.
And, finally, I think this episode would have been very good had it not been for the one minute scene that threw both characters back to what they were when the series started. The whole thing was funny and cute and totally ruined by that one little scene and the ending, ‘I know you’re hurting, Sam, and I feel for you’…cue Sam’s sorrowful face…cue ‘but we’re in it together, Dean, you’re my brother’ scene… cue end of Winchester character growth.
Comment by Sheri — January 25, 2013 @ 5:43 am
I´m sorry for the girls in here, but that moment between charlie and the fairy was great. For me, one of the few highlights of this episode, and that says a lot. The whole rolplaying thing was so childish to me. I didn´t hate the episode at all, but after an episode like last week, where so much happened, I feel like this one is a little out of place. Good to see Charlie back though. Overal not a bad episode, but at the wrong time. And it was not scary at all.. I want a little more scary moments in the show like in the first seasons. Excited for next weeks ep.
Comment by Robin — January 25, 2013 @ 6:29 am
46-Lisa, I DON’T hate Sam. I thought you knew that. See what I mean about voicing my opinion that Dean is getting screwed over? People automatically feel that you hate one character just because you think the other is getting a raw deal. I am not happy with how Sam is been written this year, but that’s not because I hate him, it’s because I LOVE HIM and can’t believe they’re writing him this way.
55- RS, I’m sorry but I saw Dean hitting on women, not as much the other way around. And you may think Dean gets all the final lines, but to me, Sam has had all the major stories. Including this season.
Now I heard some spoilers about an upcoming episode which calls one of the brothers into play as far as the myth arc. It wasn’t revealed which one. Maybe it will turn out to be Dean, who knows. Ideally, for me, the brothers would have an equal, united role in all that.
I don’t want either Dean or Sam to upstage one another. I would just like it to be more equal, that’s all. And to me, it hasn’t been. But we are free to disagree. I’ve got no problem with that, as long as I don’t get insulted or called names.
Comment by roxi — January 25, 2013 @ 6:42 am
I am a little confused why people seem to think Dean would have some great connection to the fairy world. I mean they abducted him he shot and stabbed and slashed at them until they let him go then he blew one up in a microwave. Now if I were Dean and met another fairy I don’t think I would mention any of this especially if you want that fairy to help you.
Comment by AW — January 25, 2013 @ 8:30 am
@ AW: In Clap Your Hands, along with fairies only taking first-born sons, Marion states:
MARION: Yes. Faery comes in many shapes and sizes. Magical, mischievous beings from the realm next door.
DEAN: The fairy realm.
MARION: Mm-hmmm.
SAM: So it’s like another dimension?
MARION: Another reality! Yes. Only people who have been there and returned to our world can see the Faery here.
It’s not that Dean wanted the fairy to help him; it’s that the fairy needed help. Continuity-wise, the fairy should have sought out Dean for help and, canon-wise, Charlie shouldn’t have been able to see the fairy. But, of course, the script was written specifically for Felicia Day, so it’s another case of canon being changed to suit what the writer wanted to write.
Comment by Sheri — January 25, 2013 @ 9:41 am
I guess i will have to rewatch that one cause I do not remember Dean being very helpful to the fairies the last time.
Comment by AW — January 25, 2013 @ 10:08 am
@ AW: It’s not a matter of Dean not being helpful to the fairies the last time around; it’s that Dean should be the only one able to SEE the fairy. The fairy should not have been able to manifest itself as a corporeal being.
Marion clearly said in narrative; thus making it canon: “ONLY people who have been there and returned to our world can see the Faery here.”
Had the show stuck with canon and not written the episode specifically for Felicia Day, it would have been a real opportunity to explore magic or expand the SPN on fairy lore for the next time they wanted to use fairies. Instead, we got an episode that basically ensures that Felicia Day will become a permanent recurring character (and Garth, too, since they verbally certified him as Bobby 2.0 and now have him giving the boys their walking orders).
I really wanted to SPNverse expanded, but not with cartoonish ‘fun’ characters, while they continue to kill off believable characters that fit into the coda of the show (i.e., Martin was a hunter, but they took him crazier so he could be killed, and Benny fit into the coda, but I believe he is being set up to be killed off).
I don’t want SPN to be a comedy with a horror and melodramatic background (Sam’s love story and Dean ‘breaking up’ with Bennie). I much preferred it when it was a horror/drama.
Comment by Sheri — January 25, 2013 @ 11:50 am
I think the magic spell made it possible for the fairy to be seen by everyone.
Comment by AW — January 25, 2013 @ 12:26 pm
@ AW: When canon is no longer sacred on a show, it throws the doors to fanwanking open. I think anybody’s theory is as good as the next one in cases like this. I would think, however, that if the spell made it possible for corporeal manifestation, then the fairy should have disappeared the instant the spell book was destroyed and the fairy should not have been able to continue speaking to all in the room.
I wouldn’t even make a guess as to any reason. The episode was written for Felicia Day, and that’s been a problem for me ever since the show started stunt actor casting. In my mind, all episodes should be written around the mytharc or the stand-alones should parallel where one or the other Winchesters (the leads) are thinking or feeling, or for character development. That way consistency and continuity are maintained.
I would use as examples: Bloodlust where Dean learned there is a difference between killing all monsters and killing evil.
Or for comedy: Hellhouse, where the some Winchester backstory was shown and the prank wars introduced.
Or Tall Tales, where there was brother tension and the personalities of each brother clearly stood out while introducing the Trickster, a monster whose comedy was used to clearly fit the coda of the show.
Changing Channels introduced Gabriel, who gave them the key to digging the bad CGI hole that Sam could jump into and take Luci down.
Frontierland gave them the Phoenix ash necessary to kill Mama Mother.
This one gave us Felicia Day and the brothers beginning to work together. They could have done the same thing drinking beers in a bar, shooting pool, Dean pissying someone off, and the brothers brawling back-to-back with a bunch of bikers and achieved the same thing.
Comment by Sheri — January 25, 2013 @ 1:02 pm
I feel like show canon is similar to everything else, it evolves as we learn more about the spn world. Like in season one I think it was John thought vampires were extinct. Now vampires are everywhere. I don’t think I can trust crazy lady in trailer to teach us everything about every kind of fairy.
As for Charlie and Garth, I like them and the different dimensions they bring to the show. Obviously they are not in the same league as the Winchesters. Then again no one is.
Also, I think the scene you described sounds like it came from roadhouse or something. Unless they were playing pool with Death or something, that would be a cool episode.
Comment by AW — January 25, 2013 @ 2:06 pm
Laughed my ass off at the episode. It was funny and distracting, pretty much what I needed at the time.
I have a question though. I don’t generally participate in the fandom and I don’t want to step on any toes…but are there any people like me who would like to see the brothers apart for perhaps two or three episodes?
Don’t get me wrong, I love their dynamic! Yet I can’t help but feel like some story lines never get the development they deserve because the brothers are never kept apart for long (well, on the screen at least, I know that technically they’ve just been separated for a year).
Comment by K — January 25, 2013 @ 4:06 pm
Cas lied to Dean and beat him up. Dean should have left him a long time ago if we are talking about spousal abuse.
I don’t care to see Dean as Benny’s lap dog so I’m pleased Benny is gone.
Comment by josephineschmoe — January 25, 2013 @ 4:09 pm
@74 Well, by that theory, the Winchesters should have left each other a long time ago citing abuse, considering Dean has hit Sam and Sam strangled Dean and they both lie to each other like they’re breathing. Yes, in the real world, Dean and Sam should distance themselves from Castiel and each other, but this is show, where you forgive (and sometimes take blame) for such things. They’re all guilty, and they’ve all been victimized.
Yeah, why have Dean be friends with Benny when he can be catering to Sam’s hurt feelings all episode? That’s much better. Oh, wait.
Comment by Wow — January 25, 2013 @ 4:48 pm
@joschmoe - Dean has taken a swing at Cas before too - and let him down - and lied to him. They do a lot of their communication wordlessly and sometimes they work things out physically. I don’t think Dean considers himself abused. If there was anything Dean would find unforgivable - it would be what Cas did to Sam.
Don’t be too sure Benny is gone for good. There’s no reason he couldn’t come back.
Comment by t1gerlilly — January 25, 2013 @ 4:52 pm
@ K #74: The logical progression of this season is that the brothers should have been split apart. I wanted that.
In fact, it has been shown all season that Dean had learned in his year in Purgatory that he didn’t need Sam to hunt, and he’s been shown to be willing to let Sam go.
From Sam’s make-believe love story, and we were led to believe that his true love was a lie in Hunteri Heroici, I believe that it also showed that Sam needs Dean, because he has repeatedly fell apart ever time he is separated from Dean.
To me, it would have been a much more compelling season if the brothers had been split up for a while (like 6 or 7 episodes), rather than push the blame for all Sam’s man pain, lost love, and lost life back onto Dean and have him worship at the alter of Sam again. There was a much better chance at developing both characters if they had been separate.
In saying that, I don’t think Dean should have teamed up with Benny to hunt. Rather, that would have been the perfect opportunity to develop a few hunters and expand the SPNverse with believable hunters, as opposed to stupid characters like Garth and Charlie.
I can buy the episode where Dean helped Benny out with his maker, but I think it would put too much risk on Dean and on Benny if they were to hunt together if; that is, the writers remembered all the trouble and worry Dean went through to keep Sam away from crazed Gordon, the Roadhouse, and Sam’s encounter with the hunters in Free To Be You and Me.
On the other hand, the writers could have put Sam and Amelia together and have Sam slowly realize that his love for Amelia was fake, and that Amelia was the psycho bitch she has been portrayed to be. Dean, who always needs connections to somebody, could have hunted with others, or he could have been put with Benny and slowly went off the rails until Cas called Sam back in to pull him back.
It’s my feeling that something along those lines would have been so much better and developed the two stories the season started out with, rather than turning Dean into a dick to make Sam look like he wasn’t such a dick after all.
Of course, the downside is we would have had to look at Amelia that much longer, so there is that.
Comment by Sheri — January 25, 2013 @ 5:28 pm
@Sheri #77
I was personally disappointed that Purgatory was over after a couple of flashbacks. I dearly wish we could have seen more of Dean’s stay there. I remember how…feral Dean seemed when he first came back, and yet his adjustment period seems to have lasted about half an episode?
However I don’t think Dean should pair up and hunt with Benny top side either. Their separation adds some wonderful tension.
My problem with Amelia is that as a character, she’s about as involving and interesting as a damp rag. I don’t hate her - there simply isn’t enough of her for me to like or hate. Which has the unfortunate result of making me indifferent to what Sam’s going through…
I do wish we could have seen more Purgatory, followed by a feral Dean struggling to adjust to this world as he hunts (with some new, DARK characters). While in the meantime Sam struggles with the dream he thought he was living… Everything this season seems so rushed. Even the entire angel storyline.
Eh, we can dream.
Comment by K — January 25, 2013 @ 5:51 pm
@ K: Purgatory’s affect on Dean was shown in We Need To Talk About Kevin and ended with What’s Up, Tiger Mama,” where it showed him having a daymare (8.01 and 8.02). The rest of the Purgatory story were memories, a couple his showing trust of Benny and then the one showing how Cas actually got out. IMO, the purpose of those memories were so that Dean could give up his friendship with Benny to offset Sam giving up Amelia and to bring Cas and the angel storyline in as the mytharc.
I think the most that can be taken from that is that either Dean’s story was terribly weak and served Sam’s storyline, or that it wasn’t a storyline at all.
Purgatory is the best thing this show has introduced in years, and it ended up not being a story at all. It was a plot tool.
I was hoping for feral Dean, too, and I do appreciate the new fight moves they have introduced this season. I would have never expected Carver to just take Dean back to lap dog status once again.
I think who is chosen to do the three tests will tell us whether Dean is going to have a story this season or not. It will either be Dean, or Sam for a redemption arc, some random character like Kevin, or maybe Cas.
Comment by Sheri — January 25, 2013 @ 6:27 pm
Sheri: Lots of good posts here. But that is also sad because it just clearly shows how disappointing this season has been so far.
From the very first scenes in the very first episode- Dean gets out of purgatory and rushes off to find Sam- this season had the potential to be so much better. But in five minutes we get immediate conflict between the brothers and a soap-opera love story for Sam. Man did that kill off the vibrant rush the first part of the episode had.
People have posted here that we cannot change what carver has written; they are right. But I don’t have to forget about it and I won’t. And I don’t have to like it and I don’t.
I agree with you that these writers should actually try to watch some prior episodes before they write anymore so they can pretend to know what is going on and try to write with some continuity.
Have to keep hoping things will get better in writing and plot because I do want a 9th season. But if the episodes stay like they have been I doubt that is going to work out.
Roxi: I agree with alot of your posts. But I don’t believe Dean was wrong AT ALL for sending that text to Sam. Sam was wrong for not calling Ameilia and finding out what was wrong. Instead he immediately ran off- abandoning Martin and Dean and any potential victims out there. And he blames Dean when Martin gets killed. Sorry, Dean was right here and he didn’t owe Sam an apology at all. Actually if he apologizes to Sam anymore I am going to go through the screen and vomit on him.
Comment by SL — January 25, 2013 @ 7:51 pm
It just seemed to me that the only reason this episode was written was to get Dean into Medievel costume. I also had trouble with everyone being able to see the fairy. It seemed like the writer had the episode written and then realized he had to work Sam into it somehow, and just stuck him in places. I have to admit I did laugh alot during it though.
Comment by mj — January 25, 2013 @ 8:20 pm
@ SL #81: This season has been a huge disappointment and, I think, for both Sam and Dean favoring fans. I am so done with Carver.
I’m still waiting to see that Raiders of the Lost Arc theme, that thing from S1 that the boys valued greatly that they’d be going after, and the proactive Winchester hunters, all of which Carver explicitly stated in interviews that we would be getting this season. Instead, we’ve gotten Amelia.
@ mj: There were parts of this episode that were very funny and some really witty dialogue, too. I liked the Ren Fair coda, and I cracked up over the Braveheart interrupted by a blue Frisbee scene.
Comment by Sheri — January 25, 2013 @ 9:05 pm
Sam did try to call Amelia. He got:
The person you are trying to reach is unavailable.
Comment by inky — January 25, 2013 @ 9:06 pm
Come on it’ll be fun
Comment by Rape SL — January 25, 2013 @ 9:18 pm
WTH? Are you kidding me? This board has been taken over by trolls.
Comment by inky — January 25, 2013 @ 9:29 pm
#83: Only after he drove off and left Martin behind did he try to call Ameila. He could have been halfway there by then. He ran when he should have stayed and done his job.
Comment by SL — January 25, 2013 @ 9:59 pm
We’re going to see it differently and that’s OK when you think a loved one is in trouble, you panic. Was it the best thing to do? Maybe not, but it was his first instinct. They call it panicking for a reason. Given that I believe that Sam has always carried guilt over not being there to save Jessica from the demon who cooked her on the ceiling, I can get that his first thought was to drive and call on the way.
My only point is that he did try and call, couldn’t get through, and drove faster. Dean knew exactly what Sam would do which is why he did what he did. Whatever Martin chose to do after that is what Martin chose to do. The hunt itself was over when Sam got that call. How could he focus when Amelia might be in trouble ala Lisa and Ben or Jessica? Martin was fine until he decided to go after Benny by himself. Even if Sam dropped Martin all snug and cozy back at the motel and told him to wait til he returned, there is a good chance that Martin would have done the same thing. It’s a pretty common hunter strategy. And Martin believed that he was right about Benny. And whatever Benny chooses to do from here on out is on him despite the tough breaks. I sympathize with Benny alot especially after the previous episode and hope he doesn’t fall off the wagon. Except of course, if he is secretly manipulating Dean for some reason, then he is dead meat. Again.
Comment by inky — January 25, 2013 @ 10:27 pm
@ inky #88: You certainly haven’t painted a good picture of Sam.
What you have just said is that Sam is not a good hunter because he can’t overcome his basic instincts to use his head, and that anybody who is hunting with him would be in danger because, even though he is supposed to be a top shelf hunter, his training is not good enough to overcome his basic instincts.
Further, you have absolved Sam of any responsibility for Martin’s death, Elizabeth (a civilian) being terrorized, and for uprooting Benny from a family and a life that gave him the support system he needed TO overcome his basic vampire instincts.
To take that one step further, your argument gives proof that Dean was correct in sending the text, because the Sam you have just described (the one whose head is into his married girlfriend, more than the job at hand) would get his butt handed to him by Benny, a more powerful creature that has just spent 50 years honing his battle skills in 24-hour a day, 360 degree fighting for survival.
And then I compare this to Dean, who made the choice to continue to exorcize Lisa, even though the demon possessing her was standing with a knife pointed at Lisa, threatening to kill her if Dean continued…and Dean continued knowing exactly what he was doing and with her son (the boy Dean loved and wished was really his son) watching the whole thing.
And then I think of Bobby telling Dean that keeping Sam detoxing in the panic room was killing him, and Dean refused to let him out, saying that if Sam died, he would die as a human.
But, hey, the writers are on your side, so all is good.
Comment by Sheri — January 26, 2013 @ 6:09 am
No, that’s your opinion of Sam. My heart weeps for Benny and his support system. NOT.
Dean’s trick was a low blow. The end. Never mind what you think of Sam’s character or hunting skills, never mind that Benny seems to be a baby who needs his Dean to hold his hand. Never mind that Dean himself felt Benny’s phone calls were distracting him from the job.
Comment by josephineschmoe — January 26, 2013 @ 6:35 am
@ josephineschmoe: Yes, that is my opinion of what the Show depicted as Sam’s hunting skills, and I’m quite sure you also read that the writers agree with Sam’s side.
Honestly, I don’t know where my opinion came from or how I could even think such a thing. Obviously, show canon is that Sam is a sensitive, righteous victim of life and circumstance over which he has no control.
I think my mistake was in thinking that hunters were warriors on the wall protecting humanity from evil. Obviously, that was a misconception on my part and ‘no man left behind’ (even if it’s your brother) is a foolish concept to project onto a small brotherhood of hunters.
I also, obviously mistakenly, thought that Jensen was a good enough actor to portray Dean as a mean, heartless SOB if that’s what he was told to do. Apparently not, since for reasons unknown and writing aside, I always had sympathy for things like Dean not being told his brother was alive for a year while he lavished in his normal, happy life with Lisa, or being hurt because Sam chose Ruby over him, or that Sam didn’t spend five seconds looking for him. Hell, I even thought Dean was stupid for committing suicide to get Sam’s soul back when Sam obviously did not want it back (to the point of making every attempt possible to commit patricide). As it turned out, Dean was right to do that, given that Sam is the show’s moral standard and hero extraordinaire.
How could I possibly read into the Charlie conversation that Dean felt ‘remorse’ or sadness at having dumped Benny? Jensen needs to do a better job of being that mean SOB of a brother, because dumping Benny should have been so clear that there was no reason for me to question it or for Charlie to ask if Dean had lost someone.
Admittedly all my mistakes, since the writing has always clearly justified Sam’s actions as being caused by something else beyond his control.
Damn it! Now I have to go re-evaluate my moral principles concerning personal accountability and responsibility towards others, especially family, and see where I’ve gone wrong. All these years, and I could have been stomping my feet, throwing jealous tantrums, and moping over lost opportunities and I would have got my way and had the world falling at my feet.
I apologize in advance for my sarcasm. These kinds of arguments will make no one change their opinion and are driven by which character is favored. Personally, I wish that Carver/the writers were clearer in what they are doing to the brothers. At first I thought it was to show that both brothers were wrong and that they need other people in their lives, but after this latest episode, I think they’ve taken them right back to what has become over the years a very toxic, sick relationship that doesn’t speak well of family or the love of a family.
Comment by Sheri — January 26, 2013 @ 8:19 am
I too am waiting for the Raiders of the Lost Ark theme to snap into prominence. The season needs a quest driving an overall seasonal plot and this could be a great one. The Winchesters as Indiana Jones-like characters could shake off their role as mere characters to voice hurt feelings and feelings of guilt and squabbles over their differences and actually save Earth from demons. The apocalypse in 4 and 5 gave the series focus and SPN has been missing a truly heroic task for Dean and Sam since then. I am hoping Carver is setting up his secondary characters for a three year run and getting Sam and Dean on the same page before setting off on an action story that will rejuvenate the Winchesters back into flawed but heroic humans dealing with something more important than their own emotional crisis as soap characters.
I mean how many times can we watch Dean feel guilty about some aspect of his life with Sam or Castiel or Benny or everyone or thing he comes into contact with? Sam can’t be a pissy, self-absorbed, lout for three coming seasons. It could be that J2 are consigned to observer status and will only occasionally help in the quest for the tablets– be the muscle for Kevin and Castiel (and his angel hosts) as those secondary characters are the principal seekers after the tablets, but it doesn’t have to be that way. No reason Dean and Sam can’t return to first rank in the series as men of action, not sidelined into guys largely feeling sorry for themselves.
Like many, I am severely disappointed in the season so far, but it does have potential in the Raiders of the Lost Arc theme to get Dean and Sam unstuck from endlessly repetitive Winchester angst and get some movement toward an exciting action story back into the series. And, if they are in an exciting and challenging action story, their emotional and heightened feelings might be of more interest than one more exercise of Dean’s boring guilt feelings or one more Sam voicing his discontent with his life of hunting and threatening to run away. Both of those themes for the guys are exhausted to utter boredom.
I’m simply going to hope Carver knows he needs to get the boys into some main line of the action, and that in doing so, he can give them some new emotional challenges and character development rather than the endlessly repeated personal themes for both. The Raiders of the Lost Ark storyline could do that; I hope it does.
Comment by CaseyT — January 26, 2013 @ 8:34 am
89- Yes Jo, it was a low blow, but how in the hell is a text message worse than not giving a damn about your lost brother who’s always looked after you, not bothering to even try to find him, just leave him for dead, not trusting your brother to such a point that you would would put a man who anybody could clearly see was mentally unstable after someone who you knew saved your brother’s hide many times, and let that said unstable man knock him out cold, and leave him bleeding, unconscious, and handcuffed?
Really? So apparently all those things aren’t awful to you and Sam doesn’t owe Dean an apology for any of that?
Comment by roxi — January 26, 2013 @ 8:48 am
I hate it when I press submit before I am done with my thought. Re responsibility: Amy’s son is now without mom, his support and source of food. Who is at fault if he becomes a killer? which is likely since mom isn’t around and mom’s job at the funeral home isn’t around either. It gets trickier the more you think about it.
One last thought regarding Sam not doing his job. Sam was going to save an innocent life or so he thought. Isn’t that his job? In saving people/hunting things, the “saving people” part comes first.
Comment by inky — January 26, 2013 @ 12:12 pm
@ inky: The son had not killed anyone yet; i.e., the Winchester’s code of killing evil, not just monsters. Dean told him if he killed, he would come after him. The kid also said he had someone he could go to.
I don’t understand your last thought. If this is about killing Benny; then, no. Killing Benny would not have saved anyone’s life. All that would have achieved was that Benny could not be used to give Desmond “cred,” but Desmond would still have killed people to suck their blood. In fact, he was building a nest for himself, so several vamps would have been killing people.
If that’s not who you’re talking about, you’ll have to clarify your thought for me.
Comment by Sheri — January 26, 2013 @ 12:33 pm
Sorry, I was talking about Amelia. Even though a lot of us didn’t really like her, she is still an innocent life and worth saving. Turns out she wasn’t really in danger but Sam didn’t know that.
I’m not blaming Dean for Amy’s son, but he no longer has his mom and the people he would go to probably are not going to be able to feed him without killing like his mom did until he got sick. Therefore, I think there is a good change that he will end up killing to survive. Will that be his fault or is he just the victim of crappy circumstances? If Benny kills again, is that Benny’s fault? I say it is. Not Sam’s for investigating him, not even martin’s for thinking he was a killer and going after him, and not Dean’s for cutting off contact. That’s all.
Comment by inky — January 26, 2013 @ 12:45 pm
yes it is the kids fault-its called choice. the kid has a choice to kill or to find another way. if he kills it’s his choice-its his fault-plain and simple. if benny kills thats on him-its his fault. its his choice. he had lived on blood banks before and knew how to get it so he should do it again. the only differance is -being a vamp who needs companionship he will not have it. that is sam’s fault. sam actions caused benny to become isolated. isolation is not good for mental stability. so benny could go bad and sam would be part of the reason.
Comment by animal — January 26, 2013 @ 1:01 pm
dean would be part guilty as well for cutting benny off-dean should have told sam to shove it up his ar*e. because sam never tried to get to know benny or even to ask castiel about him.or trust dean that he knows what he knows.
Comment by animal — January 26, 2013 @ 1:03 pm
No, Sam didn’t know that, and I get that Sam has fears and still feels guilt over Jessica. But, as animal said, it’s about choices. There were so many other options that Sam could have taken before dumping a hunter he was partnered with and stealing his transportation, with some added responsibility for knowing the guy was nuts.
And remember, he not only dumped Martin at that time…he also dumped Dean again. He left his brother out cold suffering from a serious hit to the head…and it takes 12 hours to drive to Kermit, Texas.
Or how about maybe just calling 911 in Kermit and having people who could help somewhat, if nothing more than to check on her, that were right in that town she was in. Sam had no reason to seriously think a monster was after Amelia, since Amelia knew nothing about Sam’s life and Sam hadn’t been bothered by one single thing for the entire year he was with her. For all Sam knew when he took off, she had broken her fingernail.
I know I keep going back to it, but Sam’s endangered, well actually got Martin killed, endangered Elizabeth (and don’t think Martin wouldn’t have killed her too if he had been successful in killing Benny — she was a witness, after all), dumped Martin and dumped Dean in another example of frantically running away.
And, you see, that’s what Dean was counting on. Isn’t that sad? He knew that stunt (what I consider a cold, hard, but very smart decision that had to be made at the time) would work on Sam because he could DEPEND on Sam running.
I, too, think that if Benny decides to start feeding on humans, that’s a choice he made, but it is Sam who set the whole thing in motion by not trusting his brother and has to accept some of the blame. I mean, would you seriously accept Martin’s word over Dean’s — the guy that was viciously stabbing ice cubes with a fork as he talked!
Comment by Sheri — January 26, 2013 @ 2:47 pm
It wasn’t just Martin’s word but cold hard evidence pointing to Benny. In the real world, detectives from Law and Order would have picked you up for questioning and detained you already.
I wouldn’t accept Dean’s word about his BFF and certainly not Benny’s word. Why should Sam?
It’s about choices and I didn’t like Dean’s choice to use Amelia to scare Sam. That was low. No ifs or buts about it.
If Benny kills again, it’s his fault. He is the one who set things in motion. He used Dean to get out and now that he is out, he is weak, gets into trouble and wants Dean to hold his hand. I guess it is Dean’s destiny to be Benny’s lap dog. Good luck with that.
Comment by josephineschmoe — January 26, 2013 @ 3:14 pm
actually josephineschmoe or could i use JS for short?? vampires are social beings. they need companionship. (nests.) sams actions has caused benny to become isolated. (rogue). dean also but he was kinda forced to let benny go so not as much as sam. if benny goes bad yea its on benny-its his choice but some of the blame is on dean but most of it is on sam.
Deans choice about sending the text was brilliant. and remember dean didn’t use this tactic -he had it in his arsenal -but he didn’t use it until sam left dean handcuffed and bleeding on the floor. at that point you can imagine dean feeling he lost his brother and couldn’t trust him. so he decided to use his ace in the sleeve. that is when he sent the text. so really it was sam’s fault he sent it. deans choice sure-but out of despiration to save both his friend benny and to save his brother sam.
Comment by animal — January 26, 2013 @ 3:27 pm
oh and josephineschmoe-sam didn’t have to take deans or benny’s word- he could have asked cas. or he could have asked dean to let him meet and get to know benny. but i guess he was more on the page of ‘i am jealous so i want the vamp dead’.
as for evidence maybe but it was circumstantial evidance at best but again-sam wasn’t going to ask benny about it -he was going to kill benny reguardless. sam was kinda crazy when it came to benny-i sure would like to know his thought process about him. because benny did help keep his brother alive for a year in purgatory. but i guess that didn’t matter to sam.
Comment by animal — January 26, 2013 @ 3:36 pm
99- Ok Jo, so you’ve answered my question. You don’t think Sam’s wrong for any of the lousy crap did to Dean. but Dean’s a bastard for a text. You believe that leaving Dean for dead, having a crappy attitude against him for no good reason, and leaving him unconscious, bleeding, and handcuffed to a radiator is fine and dandy, but a text is the lowest blow imaginable. Sam can do no wrong.
Comment by roxi — January 26, 2013 @ 5:17 pm
And yes, I DO think the text was wrong also, and I won’t condone it, but I still can’t see how it comes close to what Sam did. Dean CAN and does do wrong, and I will admit it. But so does Sam, and he did here.
Comment by roxi — January 26, 2013 @ 5:23 pm
Also Jo, Benny had Elizabeth as his support system and source of strength. He was doing quite well controlling his urges until Sam sicced Martin on him. So sorry Jo, but Sam is the one who set everything in motion.
Comment by roxi — January 26, 2013 @ 5:43 pm
In all of this conversation, I think everyone is forgetting that Dean wasn’t even asking Sam to trust him or to trust Benny. Dean was asking Sam and Martin for the three of them to go after the killing vamp, and that is what Sam would not agree to.
Sam didn’t want to find out if it was Benny or not. He wanted to kill Benny, period, and the show has NEVER explained Sam’s irrational behavior in that respect. I am left to think it was Sammy having a jealous fit because Dean liked Benny as a friend. He was acting like a self-absorbed 6-year-old diva. Not Sam’s fault, though. It never is.
First it was John and Dean’s fault that his life was so awful, and he carried this on until the family was fractured because of the arguing.
Then it was the YED who caused him to have to go back into hunting. I don’t count Jessica as a loss, since he found something in Amelia that he had never had before, and Amelia even baked a birthday cake for him. And I don’t count Dean as being the reason Sam was dragged back into hunting, since through narrative, Sam said he does not blame Dean…but he might, I don’t really know. So I’ll give this to either Dean’s fault or the YED’s fault.
Then it was Sam on a power trip to kill Lilith and stop the Apocalypse, but that was whitewashed over by fans and writers alike as Sam being manipulated by Ruby.
Then Sam got total redemption by jumping in the hole, even though he didn’t really start the Apocalypse, because that was Dean breaking the first seal according to the Sam fans and the writers.
Then Cas brought him back soulless, but nothing he did during that time was Sam’s fault, because he didn’t have a soul. That one is on Cas.
Soulless and guilt free, because he had served his time, Cas ripped out his wall. Heroically, he put himself back together again.
Then he lost everyone, including Dean, and he ran and he didn’t look for Dean. Not his fault though, because Crowley didn’t tell where Dean was and Dean wasn’t around and Sam didn’t have a roadmap. Besides, he luckily found Amelia.
And now, nothing has been right since Dean came back and is mean to him, and the writers have confirmed that in two episodes now, and four times within this last episode just in case we don’t get it.
Comment by Sheri — January 26, 2013 @ 6:49 pm
Sorry, my laptop sometimes does as it pleases. In this case, it posted before I finished.
The point I am making is that nothing is ever Sam’s fault; therefore, Sam will never grow up or man up. The show has been written that way since the series started. I was under the assumption, based on Carver’s own words, that the brothers would mature and be shown that they can be two separate individuals and still love each other. This episode put them right back into the Sam is special and Dean is his handmaiden.
And that’s the very reason I have given up on Sam’s character. It’s just boring watching an entitled diva for eight years with no hope of change.
Comment by Sheri — January 26, 2013 @ 6:59 pm
While nobody would ever take Sam’s sacrifice away from him, Dean should get some credit too. It was him who was able to reach Sam, who wouldn’t stop trying to reach him even as Lucifer was close to killing him, finally reaching Sam til he was able to overpower Lucifer and make that jump. Dean never gets any recognition for that.
Comment by roxi — January 26, 2013 @ 7:04 pm
Sheri (#105-106): Once again- sad for me- but I read your posts and I had to agree with you.
But- for me- I will always want Sam- and need Sam-to be the other half of the show. He is written so much better in the fanfiction then he is on the show.
This season I came so very close to HATING Sam. But- no matter what the writers tell me- I know that was NOT the real Sam in the first half of this season. That was some jackass that an idiot showrunner created to try to rewrite the show to fit his blind vision.
I was disappointed when Jared said he loved playing the character that way. I have seen a favorite character betrayed by a favorite actor on another series I used to love (Stargate) and that led to (much-needed) death of the show.
I truly hope that does not happen here. But if the actors get tired of portraying their characters and decide to “redo” them this show will go down the drain 1-2-3.
Comment by SL — January 26, 2013 @ 7:48 pm
@ SL: I agree that both Sam and Dean need to be on the show. It wouldn’t be the same show without them. That doesn’t mean that I have to like both characters, though.
The showrunner/writers write the show and the characters in the direction they want them to go. This show has taken the path of making Sam a character that I loathe, because he’s a self-absorbed, conceited brat. Maybe they’ll change that sometime before I quit watching the show, or maybe they’ll drag Dean down to match Sam and I’ll quit it for that reason.
Comment by Sheri — January 26, 2013 @ 8:21 pm
@ roxi: It wasn’t Dean that reached Sam. It was a sunbeam hitting the impala landing SAM’S toy shoulder that triggered the memories and the relationship Sam and Dean had.
I don’t even believe Sam overcame Lucifer. I believe, seeing Sam’s memories of his close relationship with his brother, triggered Luci’s memories of his brother, Michael, and Luci let go just enough for Sam to gain control. I say that because it was Luci that tried to talk Michael into just walking away and the whole rest of the big daddy whinefest those two had.
Hell, a car thief could have driven the Impala to the cemetery and abandoned it and the same thing would have happened. Dean didn’t have to be there at all and the only credit I give Dean is unearned — he just happened to be Sam’s brother.
I know there’s the two sides to how Swan Song was viewed and there always will be. Ones who view it as you do liked the episode. Ones who viewed it as I do detested it and feel like we were completely play and deceived for five years.
Comment by Sheri — January 26, 2013 @ 8:34 pm
@Sheri - Yeah, I kinda call it the ‘notapocalypse’ for the same reason. The end of season five was definitely a ‘big flinch’ - when writer or a show avoids a climax because they have written themselves onto the edge of a cliff and are afraid of going over. If you ask me they should have turned it into a post-apocalyptic show - with the Winchester boys leading bands of weary suvivors through a demon-torn landscape. Kind of like purgatory for humans. Instead they tried to punch the reset button and take the series back to the begining. Sometimes I wonder if they’ll circle back and get it right for the end of the series. I.e. kind of do what AW has suggested in the past - have Lucy and Mike get out and this time get the brothers. After all, the end was set far enough in the future that it could still come true. Plus, I think we’d all like Amelia more if she turned out to be man’s nemesis on earth.(Or at least could get her behind us.)
Comment by t1gerlilly — January 26, 2013 @ 11:40 pm
My only real disappointment with Swan Song was that I would’ve liked to see Jensen play Michael. Sheri, I think you have to give credit where credit is due; Jared really did do a fantastic job here. You could really tell the difference from where Sam started and Lucifer took over. But I think Jensen would’ve rocked the role of Michael as well, and he wasn’t given that chance, due to either a writer strike or Eric Kripke leaving, or something like that, I’m not quite sure.
Comment by roxi — January 27, 2013 @ 3:44 am
I still believe that we, the audience, were supposed to believe that Dean did reach Sam, or else what was the point, plotwise, of even having him show up?
Anyway, that’s what I think.
Look, I don’t like how this season has gone so far, but there had to be something in the series that we all really loved and enjoyed for us to have become such huge fans. It hasn’t all sucked. A fan could say well, I got interested because Sam is hot or Dean is hot, but that alone wouldn’t have kept us all this invested. Sheri, tell me, if you will, some of the things you’ve enjoyed about SPN. And I don’t mean that sarcastically, it’s an honest question.
For me, it was the bond(which you insist was never there, but anyway) between the Winchesters and their shared experience that compelled me . And ok, I’ll admit it, I found Jensen hot as hell, that sure didn’t hurt! LOL But mainly it was Sam and Dean’s relationship, both the heartfelt moments as well as the funny ones. And lo and behold, in the beginning, some of the MOTW actually were kinda scary.
Comment by roxi — January 27, 2013 @ 3:57 am
@ roxi: I watch one show on TV, and that is SPN. That’s been the case for the last 8 years, and for almost 5 years before that, by choice, I had no TV. I actually tuned into the show during the Pilot because of the concept of two brothers traveling the backroads of America. I was born in Kansas and the rural mid-west is where I grew up, so that concept caught my attention.
With the Pilot, the classic car, the rock music, and Dean’s shadowy character intrigued me, but more than that, it was that Kripke had a good sense, a good feel, for rural America, blue collar workers, and the values that grow out of the dirt in that part of the country. His idea that there is always tension in family, but in the end that’s all you really have are words that actually came out of my mother’s mouth.
I’m not a horror film lover, and I thought the MotW were dorky, but the brothers looking for dad interested me, so I kept watching. It wasn’t until Faith that I bought into the brothers bond and thought, wow, they could really do something with this show…and they did (Thank you, Kim Manners).
So, yes, the brothers bond and the concept that as long as you have family, you can overcome most anything was my buy in.
Then they started trashing Sam’s character in S4. No problem, I could see where the story was going because they brought Dean into the mytharc and upped the stakes with the angel storyline. I had no idea that the plan was to continue on for years of tearing the brotherhood apart and never really bringing it back together again.
It’s four years later, same issues and no resolutions. That’s why I call it mythical. I don’t think any of the writers or showrunners intend it to be viewed as that, but until they quit ‘telling’ the viewers the brothers will always choose each other while ’showing’ us the brotherhood being ground into the dust, it’ll be mythical to me.
At this point, I feel that they have taken the brothers bond and turned it into the biggest urban legend on the show.
There is much to still like about this show, and I still think it’s the best show on TV, but I credit that to the J2s, not the writing.
I watch a show for many reasons. I like to see how each director works, how the editing is done, how they use light and settings, even the color of the scene sets, to set a certain tone. I look closely at the photography and angle of shots, I LOVE witty dialogue, and I want eye candy if I’m investing any length of time. I look for the actors mannerisms and what they bring to a role –lots and lots of reasons, and the production people on this show are top notch. So, not an easy answer for me to skim over, but you get the gist. I require more than just eye candy to keep me invested.
And all of that is why I don’t watch TV as a rule. SPN was unique in it’s concept and male-orientation, wonderful use of music that added to the tone, and the two actors were good and hot. The idea of throwing that aside and turning the show into a normal spoon-feeding of the masses type of show disgusts me (i.e., the Lisa love story and now the Amelia love story, ascribing female traits to the male characters — the non-ending male angsting, the kickass, snarky 90# kiss-ass woman that puts the brothers down or saves them while taking care of a 230 lb. bad guy).
When I make comments on this discussion board, it is not because I hate the show; it’s because I like it. I am discussing each episode from a viewpoint of all of what I have mentioned above, because that is how and why I watch it. A discussion board is for discussing and sharing different viewpoints. There is absolutely nothing wrong with some people favoring Sam and some people favoring Dean, even if they are extreme about it.
What ticks me off is when fans put other fans down, or try to bully them into shutting up, with stupid comments like “why do you even watch,” or “go away,” or “you hater,” when logical or illogical points that THE WRITERS have brought up are what is being DISCUSSED. Those comments are stupid and contribute nothing. Besides, we already know not one person is going to change their mind about anything, because we all view from different perspectives.
And, no, I wasn’t particularly invested in Jensen playing Michael in SS. I actually thought Kripke would come up with something very creative that I hadn’t even thought of to get the boys out of the mess the writers put them into. He copped out and jumped ship instead. And, yes, Jared did well up until the circling duck-walk whinefest between Jake Abel and him. That was the worst acting I’ve ever seen two actors do…and, granted, Jared didn’t have anything to work with in the dialogue. The best piece of acting I have seen Jared to is playing Lucifer in The End. That scene was awesome and blew me away.
Comment by Sheri — January 27, 2013 @ 6:41 am
Don’t put words in my mouth. Where did I call Dean a bastard? All I hear are Sam being called a string of names and insults.
I am not going to go all the way back to the pilot to argue whose fault it is. Shit just happens and no one is to blame. I never thought the writers blamed Dean more than Sam. In fact, Sam was the one blamed by all for the apocalypse.
All I said was Dean’s phone tactic was a low blow. And you even agree. So what’s the problem? Because I didn’t go on to point out Sam’s mistakes? Why should I? I’m sure Sheri has done a good job of that.
I didn’t say Sam can do no wrong. Apparently, he does a lot of wrong as the Dean fans never hesitate to point out. I’m just not focused on his flaws like some of you.
I never made sweeping statements about Dean’s character or tried to blame him for everything that has happened since the pilot.
Don’t try to blame Sam for Benny’s future mistakes. If he can’t survive in the real world, that’s on him.
Comment by josephineschmoe — January 27, 2013 @ 9:36 am
@ josephineschmoe: I think the reason each side is so heated about the Benny thing is the way the writers set up the conflict starting with 8.01, where they clearly placed Sam in the wrong. They continued with that theme through the rest of the episodes ending with Citizen Fang. I mean, does anyone to this day understand why Sam didn’t look for Dean?
Then there was no pay-off for any of it. Dean accepts all fault and gets lectured by what is basically a silly girl off the street and Sam is washed clean of any responsibility and accountability. That’s not good storytelling.
Comment by Sheri — January 27, 2013 @ 9:50 am
well for that matter sheri and josepieschmnoe-does anyone to this day understand why sam hated benny so much from the get go??? i surely don’t. “because he is a vampire” doesn’t cut it. he has let vampires live before. and he has let werewolves live as well. and he let amy live (can’t recall what she was). so i need a better explaination of that little tid bit. do i think i will get it??? probably not.
Comment by animal — January 27, 2013 @ 10:45 am
oh and could i just say-i was watching spn 8×5 -just the part with dean and benny fighting. benny was whistling. the weapons!!! jensen said he had a new favorite weapon and it was his purgatory weapon. where in the h*ll is the purgatory weapon??? why haven’t we seen it???. anyone think we may see it during the 3 tasks in the trial and error episode??? i bet you we won’t. writers letting the good things slip away yet again. man-what a shame.
Comment by animal — January 27, 2013 @ 10:55 am
No @Sheri, Sam is only wrong in YOUR eyes. Because to you, Sam can do no right. Stop imposing your opinions onto other people who don’t think like you.
Comment by Jessica — January 27, 2013 @ 12:26 pm
@ Jessica: Ah, another clear example of Sam girls who can’t argue the facts so they try bullying people into shutting up.
I have no desire to impose an opinion about anything on anyone. It’s those of you who take offense to even a discussion about what has been shown this season and see no wrong in anything Sam has done this season who are in it for only one thing, and I’m perfectly fine with that. You already know that I have given up on Carver, loathe Sam at the moment, and am now watching only for JA’s performances. That doesn’t stop me from discussing the show in a non-bullying manner though.
We all watch for different reasons. Who knows? Maybe there’s a real story coming up that we haven’t been introduced to yet.
Comment by Sheri — January 27, 2013 @ 1:42 pm
@ animal: In Southern Comfort, Sam Benny should be killed because he was a vampire and that Dean had killed his friend, Amy.
DEAN
You want to talk about Benny? Fine. Let’s talk.
SAM
Okay. How about he’s a vampire?
DEAN
He’s also the reason I’m topside and not roasting on a spit in Purgatory. Anything else?
SAM
Don’t pretend I don’t get it. I know you had to do what you had to down there.
DEAN
I highly doubt you get anything about Purgatory.
SAM
But you’re out now, and Benny’s still breathing. Why?
DEAN
He’s my friend, Sam.
SAM
And what about my friend, Amy? She was what? ‘Cause you sure as hell didn’t have a problem ganking her.
I’m left to think that Sam either is having a jealous tizzy or he’s still mad about the Amy thing. I think we’re supposed to believe that the Amy thing is an old hurt that Sam hasn’t gotten over.
But the thing is, when Sam talked to Amy and decided to let her go, she still had blood from humans dripping from her hands. She was an active killer, and Benny hadn’t been for something like 10 years before his maker offed him.
I’ve read a lot of comments that she was just doing what she had to do to feed her kid so he wouldn’t die. Well, if that is a justification for not killing her, then I have to question why the Winchesters would kill any vampire, werewolf, shtriga, or how about that wendigo in S1, or most of the other monsters they kill. They’re just monsters feeding themselves so they can live, too.
The whole thing is completely irrational on Sam’s part, and the show hasn’t given us anything else except that Sam is irrational and having a foot-stomping temper and/or jealousy fit.
But, you know, the writers have verbally told us through Dean’s own words that Sam is right; not irrational at all, while showing us something entirely different for a lot of years now…at least since S2.
Comment by Sheri — January 27, 2013 @ 2:03 pm
so sheri-you are saying its the amy thing that is the justification for sam acting like he is about benny.even though sam himself said dean was right about killing her?? hmmmmmmmmm. thats weak but i guess that is par for the course for the writing of sam this year. i would like to know if the strictly sam fans believe that is so.(i am a sam and dean fan), or what is thier explaination as to why sam acted the way he acted toward benny. any takers???? if you do believe it is the amy thing-to avoid the whole amy discussion because that just goes round and round. just say “amy”.
Comment by animal — January 27, 2013 @ 2:44 pm
On rewatching this episode, I can actually say I like it. I know I complained about some things at first but now I’ve changed my mind. It’s certainly better than the episodes before it were. And it was fun to see both boys dressed up and getting their geek on. The only part I didn’t like was Charlie saying it was Dean’s fault that Sam gave up normal and Amelia, but other than that it wasn’t too bad. I don’t mind Charlie or Garth as long as Sam and Dean remain the two leads.
I know 8/13 is another stand alone epp. In 8/14, I wonder what the boys need to go to that hot chick for, what purpose does she serve in the tests one of them must take. Although yeah, I’m glad if I get to see Dean have a little romance, but I’m wondering if she has an importance to the myth arc as well. I’m so hoping that she’s not just another demon crony of Crowley’s who is just trying to distract Dean from the mission. If she seems attracted to Dean, I hope it’s sincere and not just tricking him.
Comment by roxi — January 27, 2013 @ 3:50 pm
122- Yea Sam did say that but he’s also brought it up again since that episode so even though he told Dean he believed he was right about Amy, I don’t think he’s ever really forgiven Dean for it.
I’m in the camp that thinks Dean was wrong to kill Amy, or at least, that he was wrong to do it in such a cold blooded manner. But I do think he needs to be forgiven at some point as well, they can’t just drag that on forever. That’s why I felt some of Dean’s possessed dialog in Southern Comfort didn’t make sense. Although yes, the spectre did amplify some grudges, it had been shown before that Dean forgave Sam in time about Ruby. And the souless thing made no sense to me. Dean forgave Sam instantly as soon as he got his soul back, because for one thing, he knew it wasn’t really Sam. So to believe he would still blame Sam deep down for what souless Sam did was way off. They should have made possessed Dean only angry about the one thing that has no explanation, the thing that was really hurting him, the fact that Sam didn’t even try to look for him. That was the real resentment that Dean was harboring, the rest he had already forgiven long ago.
Comment by roxi — January 27, 2013 @ 4:02 pm
@ animal: No, I’m not saying that Amy is the reason, just that it is the only reason the show has given thus far. Personally, I haven’t a clue.
Comment by Sheri — January 27, 2013 @ 4:15 pm
sheri-i hate the way dialogue is thrown out there by these writers for sam and dean to say but they don’t really say anything if you know what i mean. they say things that are from left field. or open ended with everybody going “say what??” . or they do things that are so out of character again you kinda go “what??”. what purpose does any of the “argument” that we saw serve??? i don’t get it. this show is lost to me sometimes. episodes are good but the little things drive me crazy. especially the stuff between the brothers. gawd.
Comment by animal — January 27, 2013 @ 5:42 pm
@roxi Please don’t think I’m being flippant, but out of curiosity, what would the warm-blooded, compassionate way of dispatching an unrepentant murderer of four/monster be?
Comment by Wow — January 27, 2013 @ 8:42 pm
@ animal #127: I’m really convinced these writers never watch a single episode of SPN.
@ roxi (Post #125) mentions good example of what you are talking about. In Dean’s possession speech, he says ones of Sam’s wrongs is when he was soulless. I thought that was probably meant that Sam and all of Heaven and Earth kept it a secret from Dean that Sam was alive. That’s not what the dialogue said, of course, so count that as me fanwanking; but, obviously not having his soul wasn’t something that Sam could do anything about. Letting Dean know in some way that he was alive is something that Sam could have, and the audience would have expected, Sam to do.
And, yes! I am very sorry to see that weapon Purgatory is gone, too. I liked that new weapon.
@ roxi: I actually thought with the way Dean almost tenderly laid dead Amy on the bed and the regret clearly showing on his face that the fast and efficient death was the most merciful.
But in thinking about it, there are a couple of parallels to Dean killing Amy and Sam’s obsessive desire to kill Benny:
First, Dean killing Amy, who was very much shown to be a sympathetic monster as Benny is, and not her son clearly showed that Dean defines monsters by what they do (kill humans) and not by what they are (just a monster). That’s the killing evil and not just monsters lesson that Sam taught Dean.
The second point is that Dean is right in calling hunters ‘killers,’ because that is their job — killing monsters. That, in and of itself, that hunters are killers is what brings up the moral issues. If you’re a killer, do you kill everything not human? If so, Dean should have killed the son. If not, then Dean should have let the son go, which he did with a warning.
Was it moral, then, for Sam and Martin wanting to kill Benny just because he is a monster? And we have Martin, a crazy hunter, off his rocker totally, teaming up with Sam and contrasting Sam, who is not crazy, but is okay with going along with Martin in spite of the facts that Dean told them both. Does that mean that Sam now thinks all humans are just superior beings to all monsters and they should all be killed?
Then throw that in with Sam not looking for Dean, deciding to leave Amelia with no input from her following his conversation with Don, going back and sleeping with her knowing she was married and sneaking around on her husband, and then deciding to dump her again without even a phone call to say he’s decided not to show up (I know, Amelia’s choice, thus making her a sympathetic adulterer in his decision). And in all of this, he has not disclosed to Dean that the love of his life is married and he has not shared with her anything about himself and his life.
So the point is, who was colder, Dean when he killed Amy quick and fast and with regret, or Sam in his interactions with Amelia? Amelia, bitchy, drunken vet that she is, is still 100% human and doesn’t have blood dripping from her hands.
Comment by Sheri — January 28, 2013 @ 3:29 am
@Sheri - well, even if he’s on the wagon now, Benny was definitely a practicing vamp before he ended up in purgatory. He’s probably murdered hundreds of people. Amy murdered like four - for her son. And let’s be honest, if Benny wasn’t his friend, he definitely wouldn’t be getting a pass from Dean. I mean it’s not like they usually take a full history from every monster they meet before they kill them.
I don’t think there’s any bright lines on this one. Hey, for all Sam knows, Benny could be using some kind of vampire mojo on Dean - especially since he was once dialed in to the mother of all vamps and getting visions from her. Plus Dean Is acting totally OOC for Benny and dissing both him and Cas, his closest friend.
Comment by t1gerlilly — January 28, 2013 @ 11:35 am
If you ask me, Sam’s reaction to Benny is a little like when your brother starts cheating on his really nice girlfriend with some junkie slut who tells him whatever he wants to hear. You’re disgusted with your brother and have no interest in cutting her any slack - because you know the type and you know that whatever your brother says about her having a heart of gold - it is going to end badly.
Comment by t1gerlilly — January 28, 2013 @ 11:42 am
roxi, One of my daughters needs a heart transplant. She is next on the transplant list but the situation is critical. I kill four people in a quest for a compatible heart one of which was your child.
Are you going to wiggle a finger at me and say don’t do it again? I was just doing what I had to, to save my daughter, after all. Wouldn’t any mother do the same? Wouldn’t you go out and kill however many people you had to, to save your child.
No, of course not. The lives of four others, and for you the loss of your loved one, is not a fair exchange for my daughter. You would be devastated and demand my incarceration for all eternity. Or the death penalty if it exists in your country.
So why should Amy get a free pass?
It’s easy to be forgiving when it’s make believe but if you think of it in terms of reality suddenly it’s something entirely different. If Amy were a human mother killing for her child the only excuse that would fly is they were trying to kill her son.
I have another scenario for you. If Dean had not killed her and the next time her son was sick she killed your child how would you feel about Sam then?
Comment by Haley 56 — January 28, 2013 @ 12:12 pm
t1gerlilly @130, as shown in “Citizen Fang” Benny was on the wagon before he was sent to purgatory but that is hardly the point. Lenore and her nest hunted humans before they went on a restricted diet. If not doing it any more was good enough for Sam to let them go then it has to be good enough to let Benny go, even more so as he did time for his crimes while Lenore and her group did not. Anything else is hypocrisy.
The only way your comparison of the junky whore works is if (A) Dean is dumping Sam for Benny which he is not (B) if said junky is reformed as Benny is and (C) if Sam is in fact the good girlfriend who never betrayed Dean which he has. As it happens Sam is as guilty of killing to drink blood as Benny is. No wait, Benny has to drink blood to survive while Sam did it for power. (remember he could have exorcised the demons saving the possessed with no more then a thought therefore he condemned innocent people in order to gain power not just to survive.
I am posing an argument against your comparison not a condemnation of Sam. On the contrary I have more than once given a dissertation on how understandable Sam’s bad choices were when looking at the years of being victimized and feeling powerless in the face of demon manipulation.
Comment by Haley 56 — January 28, 2013 @ 12:53 pm
@Haley - you make good points. I’m not arguing that Dean shouldn’t have killed Amy, just that Benny killed plenty of people too and so would deserve to die. Was Benny on the wagon before purg? I know he left the nest to be with his lady love, but I don’t remember he was on the wagon. Even so, Amy was on the wagon for years and swore that she would be again. They both seem equally dangerous to me. It just doesn’t seem cut and dried. Plus, with the Lenore thing - that ended with her begging them to kill her - so Sam and Dean might reasonably have leaned something from that experience. And in my scenario, Cas is the girlfriend. After all Benny broke the guys up and Cas brought them back together. Sam likes Cas - and would probably prefer that he be Dean’s BFF and not Benny.
My point about the junkie whore is that if your sibling was clearly hiding things from you and you found out they were seeing this person who used to be a sex worker with a drug problem - you probably are not going to be thrilled that they’re seeing a crack whore and you don’t really care whether they’re ‘reformed’. Because your brother always tries to save everyone, where its a good idea or not and you can see trouble coming with a capital T, which rhymes with B, which stands for Benny. And you can be all kinds of compassionate and understanding: you can volunteer at needle exchanges and donate to charities for at risk youth - doesn’t mean you want your brother dating a crack whore. Do you see what I mean? It’s different when it’s personal. Especially since the last time he got involved in this stuff you almost lost him to it. I mean, Sam has got to be feeling pretty guilty that when he was soulless he set Dean up to become a vamp - which ultimately lost him Lisa and Ben. Maybe this time he’s just trying to look out for his big bro - maybe a little aggressively, but at least he’s trying.
Comment by t1gerlilly — January 28, 2013 @ 2:13 pm
And don’t forget that Benny was on the wagon for a long time before he was sent to Purgatory. I seem to remember something about 10 years, but I can’t be sure of that. He Blood Brothers, Benny says:
BENNY
My life changed when she entered it, Dean. Everything I had been or done up to that point just… seemed to vanish… into what we had become together. I mean… We found it, man. Eventually, we settled in Louisiana. And then one night, we were coming home, and the old man – he was just there…
@ t1gerlilly #130: Benny was in Purgatory for 50 years, so it was more than a half century since Benny had killed a human. That’s pretty reformed. Amy literally had blood on her hands and was in the act of killing her 5th human when Sam found her, and who knew if that 5th heart would be enough to heal her son. She was an ACTIVE KILLER when Dean ganked her, and the Show has shown since S2’s “Bloodlust” that ‘them are the Winchester rules.’
Sam knew Amy for a couple of hours one afternoon, she killed her abusive mother to save Sam (debt owed) and Sam let her go (debt paid). He didn’t tell John about Amy or the mother, and the mother was the one John was hunting, so that she could get away because he knew John, in all likelihood, would kill her too.
Contrast that short afternoon to Dean and Benny literally fighting back-to-back in Purgatory (shown in Blood Brothers) for a whole year, and Benny saving Cas, even though he was not on-board with Cas tagging along with them.
There is no way to justify killing that Wendigo back in S1, or any other monster that is killing because they simply need to eat, if it was okay to let Amy go. In the SPNverse, killing humans = evil, and that is the difference, so we’ve been told, between monsters and evil. Benny might be a monster, but he is not evil at this point.
The reason Dean locked Sam in the panic room and was willing to let him die from the detox in S4, is because Sam had turned, or was turning into a monster and Dean told Bobby if Sam died from the detox, he would die human.
Then in Appointment in Samarra, when Dean failed Death’s test, he had reached the point that he knew he was going to have to kill Sam because, without his soul, Sam was a human monster and a danger to other humans. (The scene where Dean looks through the peek slot at Sam restrained on the cot and Sam looks back w/o any emotion at all.)
And it wasn’t sacrificing the sheriff to the spiders and killing the completely innocent girl that the demon was holding in front of him just so he got the kill on the demon. Dean had literally just-in-the-nick-of-time stopped Sam from committing patricide on Bobby…the Holy Grail, the ‘father’ of the Winchesters.
Death saved Dean from having to do that once he was sure that Dean had learned a lesson about the natural order of things.
All of these examples are clear in what is right and what is wrong in the Winchester play book. Killing an active killer was completely within the Winchester rules, and after Sam got over his tizzy fit, he told Dean that Dean was right (The Mentalists).
Comment by Sheri — January 28, 2013 @ 2:17 pm
@Sheri - well, since Dean was the only human in purgatory and he was using Dean to get out he couldn’t't kill him, so I don’t think counts. Especially since he spent most of that time killing other sentient beings, even if they weren’t human. Plus he told Dean not to trust him - and we saw what he does to friends when they’re no longer useful to him.
The quote you included about Benny indicated that he left he nest, not that he stopped feeding from or killing humans. So I don’t think that you can assume he was on the wagon before purgatory based on that quote.
I think you put it really well when you explained why Amy had to be killed. I just think you can use the same logic to justify killing Benny. The only real difference that you point out is the length of time since they committed their crimes. I know that’s an important distinction in he law (statute of limitations) and in many people’s minds, but I also think it he type of crime and whether he person is an ongoing threat matters. For example, they had just caught a nazi war criminal, who’d spent the last 40 years in the states. The husband of a friend thought ‘he’s old, why put him in prison ‘ And I was like - justice for the people he brutalized and killed. If your whole family had been on one of the yachts that Benny’s nest had captured and they’d been slowly bled to death - do you think you’d be willing to let bygones be bygones?
I’m not saying that Benny should die or that Dean is wrong to give him a chance - I’m just saying I think there’s enough grey area here that its reasonable for he brothers to disagree without either of them being entirely right or entirely wrong.
Comment by t1gerlilly — January 28, 2013 @ 3:57 pm
t1gerlilly, @133, we may have a misunderstanding. My remarks regarding Amy were a response to roxi’s posting that she wasn’t sure if Dean have killed Amy. In previous postings she has commented with absolute certainty that Dean should not have done it.
Thank you for your in depth explanation of your comparison however I still don’t see it as pertinent. As Dean has not betrayed or abandoned either Cas or Sam for Benny the cheating on a girlfriend analogy still does not apply as to being concerned regarding Dean’s experience as a vampire, this was soulless Sam’s betrayal not a choice Dean made or something real Sam would have done not a straying from the path. Yes I know you know is, but I’m trying to make a point.
My point is Sam’s behavior defies explanation. There seems to be no reason or rhyme to what he says or does. He is often belligerent and even irrational. His anger directed at both Dean and Benny has no foundation. In seasons past when he wanted ‘normal’ if Dean had given him the “us against the world speech” Sam would have been annoyed and argued, as he has before or he may have tried explanation and reason which he has also done but he would not have been hostile. In the past Sam would have questioned Dean at length about Benny, he may have even raised the subject of Ruby and suggested the possibility that Dean was being manipulated as he had been. He would not have demanded Benny’s immediate execution. He would not have left Dean cuffed to a hot water radiator but would have insisted on going with Benny and Dean to hunt “this other vampire” ending the demand with. “if there is one.”
Sam can, at times, be sanctimonious, self-righteous and intellectually conceited but he is not cruel, hateful, spiteful, or abusive of anyone least of all Dean. (well not intentionally, bad choices remember) If Sam isn’t being controlled by Amanda Tapping, by a demon brain wash, or by aliens from outer space than the writers are.
If my comments have not given you cause for pause and further comment then I hope we can respectfully agree to disagree. Perhaps we can have some lively discussions on other points of the show.
Comment by Haley 56 — January 28, 2013 @ 4:21 pm
@Haley - OK. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. Maybe my metaphor was stretching it. But my basic point was that given that Sam doesn’t know Benny, there are a number of good reasons for him to be concerned, that because it directly involves his brother he may have a different yardstick in approaching it, and that there’s a moral grey area here where it’s reasonable for the brothers to disagree.
It’s not that Dean was betraying or abandoning Cas, it’s that he’s possibly blind to the danger that Benny represents, because of his own loyalty, and that Sam, knowing his brother, is doing his best to protect him.
Comment by t1gerlilly — January 28, 2013 @ 5:26 pm
One last thing - about the handcuffs. Handcuffing Dean to the radiator seems reasonable to me. As a way of getting Dean of the action, it was a pretty mild precaution to take.
Remember after all, that even DEAN handcuffed Dean in the “The End.” Not to mention Sam handcuffing Mrs. Tran, for her own good, in the previous episode. Dean was safe and would remain out of play for at most 24 hours, until the cleaning staff came into the hotel room. But probably not for more than a half hour, as we saw. If you were going to be upset with Sam, you might want to be pissed at him for doing something so obviously ineffective. If you think Dean was possibly concussed, then answer me why you think it would be better to take him on a hunt for extremely dangerous prey and a crazy guy, than to leave him and then come back later or make a call to 911 if you were worried.
Obviously, I’ve spent too much time thinking about this.
Comment by t1gerlilly — January 28, 2013 @ 5:33 pm
Ok listen, whether or not Dean was wrong in killing Amy, my point was that it’s time he was forgiven for it, by Sam and by the SPN writers.
Also, some fans are going on and on about Dean’s text as if he’s this horrible person. One fan even commented that he doesn’t deserve to get any romance or sex because of it. All while excusing all of Sam’s actions against Dean.
I myself don’t condone the text, it was wrong to me, but I’m not understanding how said text absolves Sam of any and all blame for his actions.
They both have things to be held accountable for.The SPN writers seen to feel only Dean is guilty and should apologize.
Comment by roxi — January 28, 2013 @ 5:44 pm
@ t1gerlilly: There’s so much that could be said about the points you’re bringing up about the Benny/Sam thing, but I’ll agree to disagree.
It’s over now and clearly the writers want us to see it the way you do. And clearly, what I saw in the episodes and what the writers are telling me are two completely different things.
But, you know, I rely on canon and get very ticked off when the writers throw it aside to fit some script they are writing, and canon is now well established in two separate episodes; one of which included a judgment handed down by a random woman off the street and two statements from Dean himself that Dean was wrong to send Sam the text.
So, I concede that Sam is faultless for all of his actions. I think it’s piss poor storytelling, but it wouldn’t be that way if Carver didn’t want it to be that way. It’s not what I saw, but Carver spent the time in two episodes and with direct dialogue to make sure the point was taken. Unfortunately, that just makes me hate Sam’s entitled character even more.
Comment by Sheri — January 28, 2013 @ 6:44 pm
@sheri - hey, I like hearing what you have to say and I do think about it, even if I don’t always agree. I’m totally with you on the writer’s using canon as a dish towel and pointless OOC moments are driving me nuts. I still can’t believe Sam slept with Amelia that last time - it was so weak and pathetic. I also can’t believe Dean doesn’t seem to give a damn about Cas bleeding from the eyes and giving Benny the royal kiss off right when he needed him most.
I watched torn and frayed again. I’ve decided it’s the worst episode in the series: revolting, boring, and depressing, with a stomach- turning number of nonsensical, canon-destroying moments.
Can you think of any episode that’s worse?
Comment by t1gerlilly — January 28, 2013 @ 10:53 pm
@138 - so, it’s ok for Sam to leave an unconscious Dean handcuffed to the radiator to keep him out of the action, but Dean sending the text to Sam to keep him out of the action was wrong? That seems like a double standard.
I think Sam made mistakes in 8.09 and until he verbally admits them, like Dean has now in 2 different episodes, then I think the relationship is one-sided. I also think Sam needs to recognize Dean’s sacrifice and support him, like Dean is supporting Sam. Again, unti Sam does this, I think the relationship is one-sided and won’t be fixed.
Comment by Bree — January 29, 2013 @ 3:05 am
@ T1gerlilly: If you’re speaking of S8 only, Bitten is on the bottom of my list.
If you’re speaking of an episode as infuriating, then I’d go with Fallen Idols, where Sam blamed him choosing Ruby over Dean on Dean because Dean wouldn’t let him grow up. Talk about a lame whitewash for all of Sam’s past actions.
That’s why I harp often on canon. If canon is used as a dish towel, then the showrunner/writers lose control of the story and of the characters. They become plot tools, as I feel both Sam and Dean both are and have been for several years now. Well, Sam becomes the plot tool and Dean the handmaiden that carries Sam’s cape.
Here is a S8 parallel with Fallen Idols: In Hunteri Heroici, the scene that takes place in Fred Jones’ head:
SAM:
Look, it can be nice living in a dream world. It can be great. I know that. And you can hide, and you can pretend… [the background is now brightly colored rectangles] …all the crap out there doesn’t exist, but you can’t do it forever because… eventually, whatever it is you’re running from – it’ll find you. It’ll come along, and it’ll punch you in the gut. And then… then you got to wake up, because if you don’t, then trying to keep that dream alive will destroy you! It’ll destroy everything!
and then in Torn and Frayed:
SAM
You needed me to what? To tear ass to Texas? To be afraid that what happened to Jessica, what happened to… everybody that we care about might have happened to her?
DEAN
You were gonna kill Benny. What was I supposed to do?
SAM
Is that what we are? You save a vampire by making me believe that the woman I love might be dead?
and then:
SAM
She does make me happy, and she could be waiting for me if I went back. I’d be a very lucky man if she was. But now… with everything staring down at us, with all that’s left to be done… I don’t know.
As a viewer, I see these two episodes (with only Citizen Fang separating them) as Sam realizing that he was living in an idealized ‘normal’ life with Amelia. He was devastated at losing everyone he knew, hit a dog, met Amelia, stopped running, and the two of them clung together in like-minded sorrow.
But now with Torn and Frayed, and Dean being responsible for scaring Sam with the mean text that lead Sam to believe his one true love may have been in grave danger, what am I to think? That Sam prefers living in a dream world with a drunken bitchy…married…vet that saved him from a mental breakdown when he had lost everything; that their deep love based on shared sorrow and misery is perfect and enduring (because she knows nothing else about him and his past life except that he had a brother who, as far as Amelia knows, is dead).
But now, heroically, Sam is giving all of that up, everything he always wanted, will choose to live in the real world and hunt and will save the world; with Dean now that Dean is, in fact, alive, because there is so much to do and it’s the ‘mature’ choice? And off the two heroes go, side-by-side, to play dress up at a Ren Fair.
WTH Show!!! That’s the pay-off we got for half a season of Sam/Amelia and Dean/Benny and the two heroic leads sniping at each other???
Since this is the second time the show has gone down this path; that Sam’s choices are Dean’s fault, it makes me hate Sam and feel no sympathy for Dean.
Using this cheap writer’s trick to extricate themselves from various writing choices that have put them in a corner or in stories the fans don’t like, makes the ‘brother bond’ an abusive relationship. One partner beats up the other partner (Sam doesn’t spend 5 seconds looking for Dean), partner says he’s sorry (in this case, buys Dean a burger or gives him permission to play at the Fair), partner beats up the partner again, rinse and repeat. That’s a sick, sick relationship we’ve been viewing for 7.5 years.
I honestly don’t think the writers realize this is the impression they leave when they whitewash Sam’s behavior and have Dean apologize for it, and that’s because they toss canon and have only a surface concept of the characteristics of the two lead characters.
Comment by Sheri — January 29, 2013 @ 3:49 am
@Sheri - wow - you’ve connected the dots on this season in a really interesting way. I get the feeling that if you liked Amelia better as a character, or if their life together had been written more appealingly, this storyline might have worked out better.
The funny thing is that I thought the writers were doing everything they could to make it Sam’s free choice. Dean totally backed off - literally left him and didn’t want him back. Told him he had to make his own decision. Told him to be happy. I really don’t know what else they could do to make Sam solely responsible for his choice to come back to hunting.
Also, well - I have a sibling who never apologizes for anything, ever. To the point where we didn’t speak for a year once. But my sibling also does make it up to me - just without ever admitting a mistake. It’s infuriating - but it’s part of a person who’s kind and loving to me - so what’re you gonna do? I figure actions are more important than words, anyway. I’d rather have someone working to make things ok between us than empty apologies.
So I’m guessing you can understand if I see things a little differently.
Comment by t1gerlilly — January 29, 2013 @ 5:05 am
Me personally, I’d like to see both boys,in the end, find true love. It was never that I didn’t want this for Sam. It’a just the way it was done. Amelia didn’t know anything about who Sam really was, knew nothing of what his life had been for 30 some odds years, their relationship was built on an illusion.
And I felt she had a negative influence on him. Although he has hurt and betrayed Dean before, he still loved and cared about him even after he chose Ruby and nearly strangled Dean to Death. Even then that much was clear. Post Amelia he was uncaring and resentful to Dean for no good reason, and this was before the text. Actually not just Dean, he didn’t care about anybody but Amelia. Throw in the fact that she snuck around on her poor oblivious husband and stabbed him in the back by sleeping with Sam in that hotel room and I’ve basically summed up the reasons I didn’t like this ‘love story’. But give Sam a love interest who really knows who he is, who he falls in love with but doesn’t stop loving and caring about other people, like his brother for one, who brings out the best qualities in him , not the worst like Amelia did, and yeah, who is NOT married, and I could get behind that. And yeah, broken record that I am, I want this for Dean also.
I understand that SPN is not about romance and they can;t really sustain such relationships in their current situation anyway, but near the end, when SPN is beginning to wrap up, I would like both boys, who gave up and lost so much for this life, to to be able to experience and enjoy true love.
Comment by roxi — January 29, 2013 @ 5:43 am
@ t1gerlilly: The show has made it exceedingly clear that Sam didn’t leave Amelia for Dean or because of Dean; that it was Sam’s own choice. Sam left Amelia because “there’s lots to be done;” i.e., I’m miserable, so I’ll throw myself into work.
Sam left Amelia the first time before he even knew Dean was alive, and it was his choice to stay in the hunt this second time where he chose the hunt over Amelia. So why even have Benny in the season as a tool for Sam to be mad at Dean for reasons I’ve never figured out? Why wasn’t Sam happy to see Dean? Why spend the time and dialogue in two episodes to make it clear that Dean was mean to Sam because of the text? Why even have the Citizen Fang episode?
I’m left to think that the writers have lost control of the story and the characters, since I don’t have a clue what the real story is this season. I know it’s something about angels and demons and tablets and somewhere along those lines the Winchesters will have something to do with whatever it is that the writers are doing with that. Maybe they’ll be the muscle behind Cas or Kevin getting control of the tablets.
The only logical explanation I can come up with is that, once again, Dean has no story, as far as we know right now, except to be Sam’s handmaiden. There are thousands of ways write Dean getting out of Purgatory w/o having to use him as a plot tool to re-introduce Cas and the angel storyline and still show that he is now a committed hunter…still an unhappy, I can’t ever have a normal life or any friends or family hunter, but a hunter nonetheless.
There are also thousands of ways to write Sam having to give up Amelia to be a hunter w/o falling into the same trope of making Dean the responsible party for keeping the brothers together as a hunting team by coddling Sam and making every attempt to keep him happy. (Let’s have some fun, because we’ve both had a rough patch. Okay, I know fun won’t help, so we’ll just do the job. Okay, fun won’t make you feel better, but time will. What do you want to do now, Sam.)
No one can make anybody else happy. I think in real life marriages, that’s a mistake that’s often made; that when things go rough for a while, one or both partners look to the other to make them happier.
A person’s happiness, however, is on each person to do for themselves. If either one of these brothers are going to show character development and actually ‘mature,’ that’s the first thing they both have to learn, and that doesn’t require apologies from anyone for the crap that happens along the way.
Right now, Dean is looking needy and kind of pathetic in his attempt to make Sam happy, and Sam is looking like an overgrown 2-year old who got his way for throwing a temper fit. Charlie, quite frankly, is the only one looking like an everyday hero in the show.
Comment by Sheri — January 29, 2013 @ 6:08 am
great episode, awesome ending, had me laughing to the point of tears. it’s very entertaining to see a woman match dean’s libido to the point that it surprises dean himself. though i will say when sam said belladonna I thought of the porn start too.
Comment by WTW — January 29, 2013 @ 12:29 pm
well i just read that Felicia Day will be returning for another episode this season. some of you will be happy. some not so much. charlie is supposed to bring a case TO the guys to work. thats all they said about it so far.
Comment by animal — January 29, 2013 @ 3:01 pm
my opinion on this is-i like the character. most of my b*tching about the larp episode had nothing to do with her. it was the canon and the brothers relationship that irked me. the only thing i don’t want -is the lesbian part of her to be played up again. i don’t watch spn for politically correct crap. she’s a lesbian great-she is smart and funny and she fits with the brothers -i don’t feel they need to play the lesbian part of her again. i feel for them to do so will be more gimmicky than actual story. go ahead beat up on me. tigerlilly-take your shot.
Comment by animal — January 29, 2013 @ 3:08 pm
Oh, believe me, if Charlie brings the Winchesters a case, she will be right there working it with them. What I don’t like about Felicia Day is that the scripts are written specifically to showcase her. In both cases she has been used, the scripts were WRITTEN for her with the Winchesters pimped in.
She was toned down and not as annoying this time as she was the first time around, and I appreciated that. But when I think about characters like Bobby, Ellen, and Rufus replaced with Garth, Kevin, and Charlie, it’s a joke. I want believable characters that fit with the show.
I mean, seriously, would you give Garth the time of day if you were a Winchester (or hunter Lee from Adventures in Babysitting for that matter) and he called to give you a case or; better yet, would you work under his lead in a case (Southern Comfort) if you were a top shelf hunter like the Winchesters? Garth makes hunters look like it doesn’t take all that much to be a hunter, and the show elevated him to Bobby status, a patriarch to the hunter community.
Oh and @animal, there’s a whole lot more wrong than political correctness that could be said about the way the lesbian issue was portrayed in this episode. We’re all aware of the fact that anybody that lives in Hollywood feels some sort of obsessive compulsion to socially engineer with that issue these days, but I just don’t want delve into that whole aspect of the episode. It wasn’t offensive and was soft sold with comedy, so no big deal for me.
Comment by Sheri — January 29, 2013 @ 5:53 pm
@Sheri and animal - you guys are being kinda vague about what you think re Charlie being lesbian. So I’m not really sure where you’re coming from. I do kind of wonder where you live and how old you are. Maybe this is a generational divide? A question of where you live and who you know? The funny thing is - I’m personally very conservative. I think you’d have gotten a good laugh watching me walk into Arisia (a sci fi convention) two weeks ago, where I was pretty much the only adult woman with all her naughty bits covered, other than the lesbians and the girl in the furry costume. Thank god for the lesbians. They were dressed as the Doctor, and Dean, and were generally the most conservative of that crowd. I didn’t know it, but the convention was being run by the alternative lifestyle crowd, so there were more panels on polyamory, BDSM, and furries than there were on writing. I stuck to the writing track.
My point in mentioning this is to say - I get that people have different levels of comfort and I’m no sophisticate. I’m not going to tell you what to say or do. I’d rather you just talk to me.
Comment by t1gerlilly — January 30, 2013 @ 12:34 am
tigerlilly-i don’t care that charlie is a lesbian-i just don’t want spn to turn it into a statement and/or a gimmicky thing. to have the fact that she is a lesbian outshine (might be the wrong word but you get my meaning) what the story is. it almost did that in the larp episode. i don’t watch spn for its political correctness or to make a statement -however they already have especially about conservative republicans and the catholic faith. but it has been low key enough so i don’t mind it. i want the lesbian thing to stay low key. does that make sense??
Comment by animal — January 30, 2013 @ 3:29 am
@animal - yeah. I get it . I think a lot of that - the flirting etc. in the episode was to show her as being similar to Dean, to show why he’d be comfortable talking to her, but at the same time highlight the fact that he’d changed. I thought it was great that he could have a female friend that he talked to as a person, rather than just trying to get in her pants. Heck, it was awesome that he talked to a human being other than Sam - since Garth is pretty much the only human left that he talks to on a regular basis.
Comment by t1gerlilly — January 30, 2013 @ 4:24 am
@ t1gerlilly: I laughed at you and your convention. Like @animal, my problem has nothing to do with Charlie’s character being a lesbian. What I do totally resent is the social engineering Hollywood rams down people’s throats whether that be conservative or liberal issues. I recent it to the point that the minute George Bush’s head turned up on a pike in Game of Thrones, I quit watching the show. I would have done the same thing if it were Obama’s head.
The thing for me is that social engineering is nothing less than the art of mind control. Entertainment people have glitzy jobs, but who are they to tell me what I should think and not think about political or social issues, when I am much more schooled in those two areas than most any of them. All I want out of this show is to be entertained. They need to first pay attention to the storyline and the two lead characters, before anything else is ‘messaged.’
As for Charlie’s character, my biggest problem with her has nothing to do with her being a lesbian. My problem is that they write scripts specifically FOR Felicia Day w/o thought to the mytharc or characterization of the two leads. They write a script so they can specifically use her, and that adds nothing to the show except showcase a stunt-casted character (who has now become a recurring Little Sister Winchester — something straight out of bad fanfic).
And I’ll say this once again. Killing off Bobby, Rufus and Ellen and replacing them with Garth, Kevin and Charlie was not a trade-up in characters for the show.
Comment by Sheri — January 30, 2013 @ 6:36 am
@sheri - eh I doubt it was social engineering - more like ratings and attracting that ever so desirable male 18-30 demo. It’s the same reason any time a woman gets tortured on the show she’s stripped, but when guys are tortured they keep their clothes. Personally I think the latter is way creepier.
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an email. I’ve got some suggestions for your blog you might be interested in hearing. Either way, great website and I look forward to seeing it develop over time.
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