“As Time Goes By” Discussion
The other side of Sam and Dean’s family tree shows up in tonight’s episode. Post your thoughts below or click HERE for my full recap.
Well, THAT changes everything. This episode definitely broke new ground on the show’s mythology with Henry Winchester being a part of the Men of Letters, the Yodas of the supernatural world.
It’s hard not to love how much this episode adds to the show’s mythology, but also its emotional arc. Daddy issues have been a key part of the psychology of the show since day one and Henry’s story adds new layers to it. John resented his dad for abandoning him, leaving him without a male role model to follow. And John’s resentment may have spilled over to the next generation as he was often not there for his own kids. But does knowing that Henry didn’t really abandon John actually change anything? These are all interesting questions, but ones we’re left to meditate on.
Gil McKinney did a great job as Henry, and it’s those great guest stars that make episodes like this special. It’s cool to find out about the Men of Letters and the potential revelations contained in that “supernatural mother lode” the key opens.
I also loved the Devil’s Trap on the bullet. That’s just a really neat trick and I’m sure the writers were patting themselves on the back when they came up with that one, just waiting for the right time to use it.
I’ll be curious to see if the Men of Letters and the key play a role in the rest of the season, but for now, my brain is still trying to process everything. As Dean said, “Freakin’ time travel.”
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Not sure I like the idea of now John’s dad is a hunter. When younger John found out that Mary was a hunter he flipped out. Now it turns out that his dad was a hunter that kinda goes against previous epis.
Comment by Ann Byrge — January 30, 2013 @ 4:54 pm
I agree. Earlier episodes said it was Mary’s side of the family were the hunters, even the Supernatural Novels say that,not John’s. But my theory is that the reason John wasn’t a hunter was because his dad was, and got out before John was old enough to understand. Or plan B is that John’s dad might have put some kind of memory block on him (like Death did for Sam).
Comment by Aj Cotton — January 30, 2013 @ 5:42 pm
ya i know. that doesnt make sense. it goes against everything. weird well we will see how it plays out
Comment by faye — January 30, 2013 @ 6:01 pm
Hey Roxi - That rocker/punk/emo girl was flirting w/Dean. Hahaha!
Comment by Lisa1 — January 30, 2013 @ 6:23 pm
A weather warning blotted out the conversation between SAm, Dean and Henry at the beginning, but from what they said later it sounded like Henry wasn’t a hunter, but a “man of letters,” and John never knew about it. (Correct me if I’m wrong. Like I said, I couldn’t hear a good three minutes of it.)
But, while I found the explanation of Henry acceptable, I didn’t find the death that way. Again, Sam and Dean fail to use their resources because the plot demands it. For both Henry (to be healed) and help with the demon, where was Castiel? You’d think that this, of any situation, would lead the boys to at least TRY to call him in, yet from what I saw, there wasn’t even a mention.
Comment by G-Dawg — January 30, 2013 @ 7:03 pm
Ann Byrge, Aj Cotton, and faye, no Henry wasn’t a hunter but a ‘man of letters’. What exactly that is I’m not sure but I thing it has to do with the use of magic. The reason John didn’t know anything about it was explained in the end but then the minute Dean said John was abandoned it was obvious that John wasn’t making it home again.
Granted it would have been more realistic if they tried to call Cas but he didn’t answer. Isn’t one of the complaints regarding Cas the fact that they can call him to fix anything and everything rather than doing it themselves. I thought Dean’s solution to the problem creative and clever.
Comment by Haley 56 — January 30, 2013 @ 7:17 pm
I’d give this episode a 9.99, with a tenth deduction for one line: “I’m going to call Garth.” Screw Garth! I never want to hear from him again. That line should have been, “I wish Cas was here right about now.”
I am loving hardass Dean this season, and I can see a path forward for both the brothers. Sam could turn himself into a precept by learning what’s in the box, and Dean can continue being hardass. Yeah, I know we can’t count on that with these writers, but it’s nice to think that for a week, before TPTB screw things up again.
Storywise, I’m kind of sad Henry is dead, but I know storywise, it had to be done. It still ticks me off that they kill off every good character and keep crap like Garth, Kevin and Charlie.
These are initial comments from first viewing, but I loved the episode. It was refreshing to see the two brothers working a case alone, and I was glad to see what Dean thinks of John now. It’s something I’ve wanted to know for a very long time and never figured the show would address it.
One thing I would appreciate is if all writers on this show would just all of the ’sucky life’ speeches and have the brothers embrace their ‘legacy.’
Comment by Sheri — January 30, 2013 @ 7:21 pm
That’s a very good point, G-Dawg! When Henry mentioned the items he needed, I thought they would call Cas, but they didn’t.
I must say . . . . I greatly enjoyed that episode. IMO, it was the BEST episode of the season for the simple fact that it directly involved Sam and Dean. They are very removed from this tablet plot, IMO. These previous episodes have been a bit boring and slow to me. This episode did not suffer from that problem, IMO.
Comment by Lisa1 — January 30, 2013 @ 7:22 pm
frankly i am glad there was no cas or mention of cas in this near perfect supernatural episode. but they wouldn’t have called cas because they don’t trust him at this point. they know someone or something is controlling him.
ok now for the episode-absolutely loved it. it had the feel of season 2. and the coloring of the early seasons. the gore, the story, dean flirting, sam and dean working together. sam in trouble and dean doing whatever it takes to save him. sam doing his investagating thing and his understanding bit like back in the early seasons. dean is badass, kickass, hardass. and the most perfect scene of all was baby peeling out. the only thing missing-that would have made the episode perfect would have had dean calling the impala baby.
did anybody else think that it was dean’s amulet that was the key in the box??? now that sam and dean have this key-and it opens up something that has weapons will it be used for that or will sam throw the box in the hole?? when i first heard about the key i thought right away about cas and him having all the weapons of heaven. which weapons does this key open up i wonder. oh well. i will have to watch this episode again tomorrow.
oh-and no wtf this week!!! thats saying something after like 8 of them last week for me.
Comment by animal — January 30, 2013 @ 7:48 pm
I thought this episode was great. I know some others don’t like Garth, but I thought the last episode that he was in was perfect. I’m glad that they didn’t call Cas in the fix their grandfather, because it would get pretty boring if everytime something went wrong they called Cas and he fixed everything. I like how Dean called Garth because I think it means that Dean is more accepting of Garth doing Bobby’s job. Dean didn’t like Garth wearing Bobby’s hat, and using some of his sayings, but I think that now Dean is becoming more accepting of what Garth is doing.
I think my favorite part of the show as when Sam and Dean were trying to handcuff Henry to a chair and got handcuffed themselves.
Comment by valerie — January 30, 2013 @ 7:59 pm
Like others have mentioned, I, too, was glad to see the brothers working well together this episode. No bitching or bickering crap. That was refreshing. And I thought the actor playing Henry did a good job.
But for me there was something empty about the episode. I can’t put my finger on just what it was but it felt like something vital was missing through the who show. Perhaps after I watch it again I will feel differently.
This whole new revalation about the Winchester family seemed to come out of nowhere and I wonder what effect- if any- it will have on the rest of the season.
A rather petty question: Was the window on the Impala broken the entire episode? I will try to see the second showing but I was just wondering.
It was nice not to have any “extras” on this episode. I didn’t miss any of them at all.
And I was glad the boys did not try to call Cas. I like Cas but I don’t want him to just be able to come back, put a finger on a dying person, and save them 1-2-3. That really does irk me so I am glad it did not happen here.
Next week they have a Golem in their storyline. I will be interested in that since my Grandparents taught my brothers and I all about Golems when we were kids.
Comment by SL — January 30, 2013 @ 8:07 pm
Also when the blind man told Sam to throw the box in the hole it reminded me so much of Frodo and the ring! I do wonder what Sam is going to do with the contents of that box.
Comment by SL — January 30, 2013 @ 8:08 pm
I keep thinking that the box might tie in with the tablet arc. Maybe. I guess. They didn’t discard it at the end of this one, so it’ll come up again. I’d think.
Comment by G-Dawg — January 30, 2013 @ 8:09 pm
I love it how everyone’s hating on Garth when he’s probably the best thing that’s happened to this show since Season 5.
All in all, great episode. I loved it.
Comment by Andrew — January 30, 2013 @ 8:18 pm
Good point, Animal! I forgot they know something is off with Cas.
Comment by Lisa1 — January 30, 2013 @ 8:20 pm
Mentioning Cas instead of Garth at that point in the episode wasn’t to bring Henry back to life — it was to get the dragon’s tear and the other odd ingredients needed for the spell.
Comment by Sheri — January 30, 2013 @ 9:05 pm
It was a good eppy….but there were so many great oppourtunities for emotion that were just skimmed over…Sigh. I know…the guys are all detached and closed down now…I suppose that’s realistic in a way…and yet—Sure wish we could’ve seen something of what the guys felt…if anything? Anymore..?
Comment by MEG — January 30, 2013 @ 10:12 pm
Correction: Henry NEVER said he was a hunter. He never was a hunter. He said that he and the other robed men were “Men of Letters”. Only they had the knowledge of supernatural things. e.g. Some kind of guardians.
And hunters do the rest. e.g. kind of mercenaries (like killing spernatural things, steal artifacts, etc.
Comment by MayonnaisePotato — January 30, 2013 @ 10:13 pm
Great episode!! Supernatural has been so good this season.
My only gripe: Henry should NOT have died. He should have stuck around for a few more episodes. Maybe ride with the boys for one more episodes, THEN go somewhere for a good chunk of time until they eventually kill him off. But it was too soon I felt.
Comment by JJA — January 30, 2013 @ 11:34 pm
Loved the episode. But one thing did nag, in season 4, In the Beginning, when Dean met John for the first time in the diner, another man told John to say hello to his dad. So either the writers forgot that little tidbit, or John had a stepfather, just sayin. I liked Henry.
Comment by clclemmons — January 31, 2013 @ 1:41 am
@meg-i thought dean/jensen did a good job of “emotion” (no perfect tear though darn it) when sam, henry and dean were in the hotel room and dean was upset about henry and family. dean gave the “family” speech. i think at this point though dean isn’t as sensitive as he was back in season 2 so he didn’t cry but he did get a shaky voice -red eyes. so emotion was there. just not in tears like in the early seasons.
Comment by animal — January 31, 2013 @ 3:36 am
I couldn’t help myself, when Dean gave Henry the “gotta save my brother” speech, I kept thinking ‘where were *these* brothers a few weeks ago?’
It felt like the first half of the season never happened. (Which just goes to show how *contrived* the split between them was this year.)
Comment by G-Dawg — January 31, 2013 @ 4:46 am
This was seriously the best episode in the last two seasons. Quite possibly the best episode in the last 3 seasons even. Certainly the best one in this season. Loved every minute of it. I’m glad they added some more demon mythology and actually demons really menacing again instead of something that just do witty one liners and call the bros funny names.
Comment by muub — January 31, 2013 @ 5:01 am
Wonderful episode. It kept my attention throughout. So great to have an episode about the Winchesters, an episode in which the supernatural elements served the Winchester’s story rather than the opposite. This was the Dean I admire and love watching: dedicated to family, judgmental and cautious, but willing to change his mind, and resourceful. There was a Sam working with Dean who seemed proud to be a Winchester.
My only concern was that Castiel would show up and save the day and get the box so the Angel Show with bit-players Dean and Sam could go on–But that didn’t happen. The episode was actually about Dean and Sam and Henry, humans fighting evil with their wits, expertise, experience, and fighting spirit.
So Carver knows some fans watch for the Winchester story? That is good news. OK, the transition from the hostile and separated Dean and Sam was abrupt in only two episodes, but I don’t care. The Winchesters seem to be back into a story about humans fighting evil, not fighting themselves. With the box, they actually have an element of importance in a larger story; it is not with angels or some secondary character. Going to be tough to push them aside to narrate an angel story or simply be muscle for Kevin; the guys could actually be more than bystanders in a second-half seasonal arc. We know Castiel will appear in 16 and 17 so it is now possible he will reappear in a Winchester story rather than appear to draft them to play secondary parts in another angel story. That is at least possible.
Enjoyed the HW initials on John’s journal; it was simply a nice touch that gave recognition that the series rests on the Winchesters and their family. Both Dean and Sam are bright guys; it was nice to have that underlined as a matter of family inheritance. It was needed. They’ve been for too long depicted as clueless and confused boys wrapped up in their petty feelings and far too stupid to deal with any real problem outside themselves without angel explanations and direction. Could really enjoy the remainder of the series if we’ve got the capable and resourceful Winchester brothers back. I’ll even wade through another angel mess if this Dean and Sam are in it. Enjoyed the hell out of this episode.
Comment by CaseyT — January 31, 2013 @ 5:28 am
What was the name of the symbol that Henry had on his tie again ?
Comment by Ron Munster — January 31, 2013 @ 5:43 am
It was a really good episode, evenly balanced with good moments for both boys, and I liked Henry. I was also glad to see that it really wasn’t Dean’s intention to just throw Henry to the demon to die, that he and Henry together had a plan, it was a risk Henry was willing to make to save Sam, and the risk paid off but resulted in Henry’s death. I just hope the rest of the season (and series) continues with this quality.
Oh and both boys sporting stubble! Sexy!
Comment by roxi — January 31, 2013 @ 5:58 am
This episode was frigging awesome. I had no problem with the episode. Henry was great. The men of letters is an epic reveal. abbadon was pretty good. I was a little surprised that John was older than I expected. Completely enjoyed the whole thing from start to finish. This season is really gaining momentum. I am very entertained can’t wait for more. Is it wednesday yet. HA!
Comment by AW — January 31, 2013 @ 7:13 am
So, Henry was basically a Freemason, Cool.
Comment by Nick — January 31, 2013 @ 7:16 am
@ CaseyT: All that you say is exactly what I saw, but I do have reservations. This series is remarkable at taking a great opportunity and throwing it out.
With the mention of Garth in two episodes now, I’m afraid they will move Garth into the bunker with all the knowledge and not have Sam evolve into the brains for the hunters. I’ve always wanted Sam to replace Bobby in that respect, and it would fit perfectly into his character…but we get the mentions of Garth, Garth, Garth, and I think they have every intention of using him to replace Bobby.
I really do not like that characters like Garth, Kevin, and Charlie replaced such good characters like Bobby, Ellen, Rufus, and even Ash, who were all intrinsically attached to the hunting community. As one blogger said, since when do they teach Latin in dental school? If they bring Garth into the bunker (or trove) of knowledge, they will have ruined this new path that they’ve opened up.
The other thing that concerns me is that we go from this exciting new path to an obvious comic stand-alone next week. It could be just because it’s sweeps month and they have always presented a dramatic episode, a comedy episode, and something that doesn’t touch heavily on the ongoing mytharc during that month.
I just hope that they don’t walk away from another great opportunity that they opened up. Purgatory was such a wash and the tablet thing has been such a weak story with no real connection to the Winchesters at all.
Comment by Sheri — January 31, 2013 @ 9:26 am
I think Garth is perfect for running hunter HQ. He is smart and has lots of resources from Bobby and his cousin Frank. Besides that would really tick me off if they stuck Sam behind a desk answering phones. Talk about a complete waste of his physical abilities. Also it is not like Bobby always did that job, he took it over after rufus died not too long ago.
Comment by AW — January 31, 2013 @ 10:30 am
Spoiler Alert: Do not read on if you haven’t seen “Supernatural” Season 8, Episode 12, titled “As Time Goes By.”
During a Q&A Laura Prudom asked Executive Producer Robert Singer about last night’s episode and What’s Next, Returning Characters And Season 9 Renewal
Read on for highlights from Singer’s Q&A with reporters to learn more about the fates of Castiel (Misha Collins), Benny (Ty Olsson) and Amelia (Liane Balaban), as well as a potential return for Jeffrey Dean Morgan and whether the creative team feel confident about a Season 9 renewal.
The latest episode of “Supernatural” set up some intriguing possibilities in terms of storylines, and earlier this week, executive producer Robert Singer spoke to a group of journalists about what Henry Winchester’s Men of Letters group could add to the show’s mythology from this point on.
Note: The questions below are from multiple outlets. Some answers have been edited and condensed for grammar.
Q: Should we assume that at the end of the episode [Sam and Dean] will immediately go off and put the box in the hiding place and we’re not going to pick up with that the next episode?
Singer: The reveal of that place, which I believe is in the next episode, it’s a really stunning set. It’s full of mysteries, it’ll become kind of a home base for the boys. We’re really excited about it. After eight years of never having a home base, this will be home base for quite some time. I think you guys will really dig the set. It’s really cool.
What kind of storylines does that open up?
Well, these Men of Letters, which is a brand new concept for us, really — if you took dad’s journal and you multiplied that times 100 [that's what this home base is like] … it’s got every source of information that would be interesting to the boys. Of course when they get in there, Sam is totally immersed in the place and Dean’s just happy to have his own room. He’s put posters up. He says to Sam, “If you want to do this geek stuff, that’s fine with me. But I’m just digging this.”
Can you talk about the differences between Henry and his son, John?
Well, John was a product of the fact that he didn’t have a father growing up, as the first of many a bad luck for him. So, he sort of held a grudge against his father because he thought his father deserted them. Now we know different and in retrospect, it makes you sort of wonder what Dad would have been like, which I think the boys say at the end of the episode. We wanted to do it because we had spent time with the other side of the family and just to bring things full circle. Also, I don’t know if you guys remember the Cupid episode where they said this was ordained, that these two people should get together, and now we know who the grandfather on that side was and why John became who he was in terms of his relationship with his father. It was supposed to be something different. [He] was supposed to be a Man of Letters but became a hunter through necessity.
Were there challenges in going back into the Winchester mythology that you weren’t expecting? Did it open up a lot of new doors?
Well, look, we make this stuff up as we go along … [Laughs.] But we try to use what we’ve done before and be able to spin out from there and tell interesting stories and get into backstory like this. Up until the time Adam [Glass] came up with the notion, we hadn’t really explored that side of the family, Grandpa Winchester. But we thought that the idea of it, of harkening back to what Cupid said and how this was all ordained and was top priority [for heaven], it just was a nice closing of that circle for us and also gives us this new home base that’s sort of chalk full of information and will certainly lead to other stories. So, you’ll see that open up next week and it’s cool.
How much of that idea for [hiding] the box [and walking away] might be foreshadowing for the tablets? Are we supposed to think maybe they’re better off not finding and decoding all of these tables?
You guys are always so ahead of us. [Laughs.] This all plays into the tablet business. Again, if Crowley got his hands on the angel tablet and could somehow decipher it, that would be kind of a bad thing. The information that’s contained in this Men of Letters bunker, if it fell into the wrong hands, would be quite a powerful weapon against the boys, so it has to remain a secret and guarded closely. As we go down the line into the rest of this year and hopefully next year, those sort of dramatic turns will take place because this is an important place.
Are there actually other members there?
No. They’re all gone. The Men of Letters are all gone, the last surviving one was the old guy in the home. He’s no more. A bit of a spoiler alert, when they go in there it’s pristine. It’s been hermetically sealed and everything was just as it was. I mean it’s perfectly neat. The only sign that somebody had to get out of there in a hurry was a chess game that was uncompleted and an ash tray full of cigarettes.
Henry talks a lot about their legacy and their lineage, does this get Sam and Dean thinking about their blood line? Like what happens after they die and there’s no one to carry on all of this?
That’s interesting. I don’t think the boys think that far, to having children of their own. Maybe Sam thought of that earlier in the year before he tragically had to leave Amelia. It may come into play down the line somehow. I don’t think a full-time domestic Sam or a domestic Dean is something that the audience is particularly interested in.
Will we see characters that we saw a lot the first part of the season like Benny, Kevin? Could they be popping back up?
Kevin will be back, Benny will be back. Castiel is back. Maybe Amelia, maybe not. But I think pretty much every season we like to bring the season full circle and get a lot of questions answered of that season but then pose new questions for whatever the next season is going to be. So, I think all these people we introduced will have a payoff. One of my first bosses in the business said don’t introduce a character that you don’t pay off. That’s something I kind of live by.
Do you feel fairly confident that there will be another season?
I’ve been around this long enough to know you never feel confident about anything. I remember years ago I did a show and the head of an unnamed network said there’s not a stick big enough to keep this show off the air. Then they flew to New York for the meetings and somewhere over Denver through 33 thousand they found a stick because it didn’t get on. I think we’ve done really well this year. I think creatively it’s been good. I think by and large the network is happy with our numbers. So, if I were a betting man I would bet that we would be back.
We started off last week with the brothers kind of in this shaky truce. Have we completely moved past that [fight] or is that still in the back of their minds?
I don’t think it’s shaky. I think … what happens in subsequent episodes is it’s another kind of conflict between them but it’s not necessarily the conflict of “do I want to do this?” or “what’s my plan beyond closing the gates of the Hell?” or any of that. It’s a new conflict. I won’t tell you any more than that but as always, there’s always something going on between them.
I’m going to ask about Dean’s hostility toward Henry. Of course, that’s because he left his family, or at least Dean thought he did. Is there anything in the back of his mind about just how bad things turned out with his grandfather on the other side of the family? His hesitancy to trust someone like that again?
No. I don’t think he relates those two things at all. I think this was strictly familial. Dean had probably a more complicated relationship than Sam did with John. It was pretty clear to Sam early on thought “I want to get out of this, I want to go to college.” That didn’t quite work out but I think he had a clearer mindset. Dean, I think, was more conflicted about his dad. It’s been pretty consistent throughout the show that Dean is always in defense of dad and John made the ultimate sacrifice for Dean. I think he takes this stuff just a little more personally than Sam does. That’s kind of what you’ll see in this last episode that’s reflected there.
Did you guys ever think about keeping Henry alive just even if you sent him back just so he could come back or was it always decided that he would perish in the end?
No. I think we wanted to close it and I think it was kind of a nice, bittersweet moment. They got to make a connection with a grandfather they never knew. One of the themes I think that we’ve always played is that people they get close to, it doesn’t work out so well for them, and they’re kind of traditional loners and what they have is each other. I think we wanted to keep it that way. That was always the plan with Samuel as well, that that would not be something that would go on for a long time.
Now that you opened the Winchester can of worms, are there any plans to bring in that side of the family further like you did before with the Campbells?
Not at the moment. But pretty much every year we kind of block out, in very general terms at the beginning of the season, the theme of the season and what we want it to be. Sometimes early on we don’t exactly know where it ends, we just know where we’re going but not how we finish it. That would be a discussion for next year that comes up in the room. I mean basically what’s always happened, whether Eric was there or Sera was there and now Jeremy, is basically the two of us sit in a room for about a week and just kind of throw all kinds of stuff around and then come up with a very loose structure. Then we bring all the rest of the writers in and start filling in the pieces. But we always feel that we want to, like I said, bring that season’s story to a close but open up a new doorway for next year.
The information that they have in the room is obviously going to be pretty valuable. Are they going to share it with other hunters like Garth?
I think that’s probably on a need-to-know basis. I don’t think they’re going to have a hunter convention in there and welcome everybody in and have at it. That’s really not their style. I would be surprised if Garth didn’t show up and probably break an expensive globe.
What can you tease about Castiel’s return?
He’s really crucial to the tablet stories. He’s going through sort of a trial of his own that’s personal. Naomi is very unhappy with him, Crowley is very unhappy with him. He’s a confused angel right now.
The show just confirmed the angel tablet [two weeks ago]. Can we expect more tablets to be brought up?
Not this year. I mean we have the demon tablet, the angel tablet and then the leviathan tablet. That’s about all the tablets we could handle.
Do the guys have any serious questions about actually keeping a home base? I imagine it’s really great to have one solid set but considering [what they're facing] on a weekly basis, is there any concern like “we’re hiding from something super, super dangerous and we’re stating exactly where that is”?
Well, they’re not saying it. They’ll go to great pains to keep that hidden. You know, also it’s kind of impenetrable. We’ve had places before — we had Rufus’ cabin — they need a place not just for us to be able to have a set to shoot on, but I think the boys actually need a place where they can decompress, have their bromance moments. The other sets we’ve had, they’re not the biggest. When you see this set, you realize they have lots of room to move around and there’s lots of really cool things in there. So Adam [Glass] came up with this idea and we really latched onto it immediately. It’s a very expensive set, so we’re going to be using it.
Speaking of permanency, the women on the show don’t last. Do you feel like you’re getting closer to finding the type of girl that could maybe last?
Felicia [Day] is going to be coming back in an episode. We love Felicia. I don’t think there’s ever going to be a third wheel. I don’t think we’re going to have Catwoman. It’s been sort of the feedback that we get that that’s not something that the fanbase particularly likes. We keep trying. I personally really thought the Amelia character was great. I thought it opened up a side of Sam that was really interesting. I thought Liane did a terrific job. I don’t think it’s ever going to be a three-hander. Listen, part of the appeal is they’re the last men standing. That’s who they are.
Is there anything you can say about Felicia’s episode?
The one that will be coming out? We know she’s going to be in it, we’re just breaking the story now. I know that she basically brings them a case, but beyond that I can’t tell you a whole lot.
You said we’re going to see Benny again. Can you tell us anything about the issues that he was having the last time we saw him?
Well, he was really fighting the good fight of trying to not give in to his blood-lust. I think Dean having to basically cut the tie was a hard thing for him. So, we will explore that idea of what he’s been going through in a while. But we didn’t feel that and never felt that that story was totally ended. You know, it’s probably not great drama to end the whole arc on a phone call. [Laughs.]
But are we completely done with the flashbacks for both Dean and Sam?
Yeah.
Do you guys consider the Amelia arc pretty wrapped up now? You said she might come back down the line but in terms of that storyline being finished?
We think she’s a really valuable character. We liked her a lot and certainly it creates a good complication in Sam’s life. Again, we’re just kind of doing the end of the season now in the room. I know that we’ve talked about bringing her back. We don’t have anything specific.
Are you planning on ending the season on a cliffhanger?
I’m sure we will. It’s worked for seven years. [Laughs.] I always think about what you guys want to know. There’s an old show business saying, leave them wanting more. I think for pretty much eight plus seasons now we’ve done that. So, I suspect there’ll be some hanging chad, yeah.
Can you just tell us a little bit about what you think about Dean’s feelings about time travel?
Time travel sucks, man … He loves it when he’s a cowboy or he gets to work with Eliot Ness. I think he was talking specifically about “do I really need this guy popping out of my closet and bringing up the whole dad thing and now I’ve got to have a mixed emotion about this guy?” The guy was not the nicest guy to them. It was almost like he was tolerating them. Then when he wants to go back, which could basically, possibly cancel their existence, Dean thought that time travel was not so much fun.
This new set, where are Sam and Dean going to hide the car?
That’s a good question because we don’t have a Batcave but I’ll bring that up. That’s a good question.
Sam has kind of been wavering all season long about whether this was something he wanted to do. But he kind of said at the end of the episode that now he understands he sees why it’s all necessary and mythically destined. Would you say that this episode solidifies why he feels that what they’re doing is necessary?
Well, when we get into this whole idea of closing the gates of hell, that becomes a real raison d’etre for Sam. I think … it’s really revenge motivated. It’s about everything that … it’s what killed their mom, killed all their friends, all that. I think Sam would say that there’s a certain amount of closure if they could actually pull this off. I think still, he in the back of his mind thinks there’s a normal life out there for him. In a way, Dean’s onboard with that. He’d like to see [Sam] happy but they have this one thing to do. Now, television being television, they’ll have something else “one thing to do” down the line.
I think it’s a good separation of character for the two of them that one has one set of dreams and actually allows himself to dream while the other one is much more fatalistic and sort of accepts that. I would hope whenever we bring the curtain down that Dean would find some peace, and probably if I have anything to say about it he will.
But Dean’s still very committed to hunting?
Yeah. He would like to finish this particular job and then he would go off and do what he does, [find something else to hunt].
Mythology-wise this episode really changed what we knew about the Winchesters. I think it’s safe to say your fans are very protective of the mythology. Was there anything you wanted to avoid?
No, not really. I mean we really go where the story takes us. We’re not afraid to try new things. We honor the mythology, we don’t make arbitrary left turns just for the sake of “that would be a good story beat,” but it’s ever evolving. We always feel that and are really trying to keep the stories fresh. So new things happen and we embrace them. That’s why I think we end up doing “LARP and the Real Girl” and living in cartoons and all that. We’re not afraid to really bend any sort of reality. If it works in our reality then it works. We’ve done some crazy stuff. In this episode, I’m always the jaundiced eye in the room when these things come up. I’m like the official “Supernatural” bullshit meter. But Jeremy and Guy say, “Oh no, this’ll be good.” I go, “Really?” Then I see “LARP and the Real Girl” and I go, “Wow. That’s really a good episode.” I’m the oldest whore on the block but I’m learning day by day as well.
[It seems like] you wanted Henry to be a good guy. I mean you could have gone back and told a story of how he went out for milk and ran off with another woman …
Yeah. That felt really right to us. Again, this idea of them meeting their grandfather and understanding all this knowledge that they’ve carried all their lives [about John], that his dad left him and sort of became then this guy that he was, was all untrue. Then the idea if you could actually speak to John and say “this is what happened … All that anger you carried: not real.” I mean that has a certain amount of pathos to it.
In addition to everything else we do, I think one of the reasons we’ve lasted as long as we have is because we tell these personal stories. Really, whatever the plot of the week is, ultimately it comes down to “how are the brothers feeling about it, how does it affect their relationship, what’s underneath the surface of the story?” The subtext and the character developments are always … I mean, after we get the basic “let’s tell a story about …” we go “what’s the emotional story here?” We thought this was a good emotional story.
A minute ago, you were talking about Sam kind of adding to the geeky aspects of his legacy and obviously he’s getting involved in the trials and everything. Where does that leave Dean?
Well, if you boil it down simply you’d say Sam is more the brains and Dean is more the brawn. I can’t remember which episode … where Sam makes a speech and he says, “You’re the greatest hunter I’ve ever seen. You’re better than Dad.” That’s Dean. He’s probably much more internal than Sam in a way. I think that when they get into these emotional areas the catalyst is more Sam. So, those are the characters we developed. Dean loves the information if he can act on it. “Oh great, what do we need?” “You need the cimetar from the 13th century to chop the guy’s head off.” “Great. Let’s go find it and do it.” That’s Dean.
The guys have said some crappy things to each other and they’ve had this friction that’s been boiling over all season. From your perspective in the writers’ room, has that all been resolved now? Are they going to have a big emotional talk again?
I think you can count on a big emotional talk, yeah. [Laughs.] Yeah, without giving it away, for kind of a different reason, for something that they didn’t see coming … Starting next week, that thing will carry through to the end of the year.
Can we assume Grandma was just a normal person or does she have some kind of secret story too?
Wow. I don’t know. Maybe in year 10 we’ll meet Grandma.
The more you tap into the Winchester history, are there ever still temptations to find a way to bring back Jeffrey Dean Morgan? I know he’s obviously busy with “Magic City.”
You know, we’ve talked about that on occasion but since he’s really sort of not available and God knows he had a great sendoff. It doesn’t get a whole lot talk in the room, no.
What do you think of Robert Singer’s teases for Season 8? Are you looking forward to seeing Benny and Castiel again?
Laura Prudom Become a fan
laura.prudom@huffingtonpost.com
Posted: 01/30/2013 9:59 pm EST | Updated: 01/30/2013 10:18 pm EST
Comment by pam53 — January 31, 2013 @ 10:47 am
During a Q&A Laura Prudom asked Executive Producer Robert Singer about last night’s episode and What’s Next, Returning Characters And Season 9 Renewal
Read on for highlights from Singer’s Q&A with reporters to learn more about the fates of Castiel (Misha Collins), Benny (Ty Olsson) and Amelia (Liane Balaban), as well as a potential return for Jeffrey Dean Morgan and whether the creative team feel confident about a Season 9 renewal.
The latest episode of “Supernatural” set up some intriguing possibilities in terms of storylines, and earlier this week, executive producer Robert Singer spoke to a group of journalists about what Henry Winchester’s Men of Letters group could add to the show’s mythology from this point on.
Note: The questions below are from multiple outlets. Some answers have been edited and condensed for grammar.
Q: Should we assume that at the end of the episode [Sam and Dean] will immediately go off and put the box in the hiding place and we’re not going to pick up with that the next episode?
Singer: The reveal of that place, which I believe is in the next episode, it’s a really stunning set. It’s full of mysteries, it’ll become kind of a home base for the boys. We’re really excited about it. After eight years of never having a home base, this will be home base for quite some time. I think you guys will really dig the set. It’s really cool.
What kind of storylines does that open up?
Well, these Men of Letters, which is a brand new concept for us, really — if you took dad’s journal and you multiplied that times 100 [that's what this home base is like] … it’s got every source of information that would be interesting to the boys. Of course when they get in there, Sam is totally immersed in the place and Dean’s just happy to have his own room. He’s put posters up. He says to Sam, “If you want to do this geek stuff, that’s fine with me. But I’m just digging this.”
Can you talk about the differences between Henry and his son, John?
Well, John was a product of the fact that he didn’t have a father growing up, as the first of many a bad luck for him. So, he sort of held a grudge against his father because he thought his father deserted them. Now we know different and in retrospect, it makes you sort of wonder what Dad would have been like, which I think the boys say at the end of the episode. We wanted to do it because we had spent time with the other side of the family and just to bring things full circle. Also, I don’t know if you guys remember the Cupid episode where they said this was ordained, that these two people should get together, and now we know who the grandfather on that side was and why John became who he was in terms of his relationship with his father. It was supposed to be something different. [He] was supposed to be a Man of Letters but became a hunter through necessity.
Were there challenges in going back into the Winchester mythology that you weren’t expecting? Did it open up a lot of new doors?
Well, look, we make this stuff up as we go along … [Laughs.] But we try to use what we’ve done before and be able to spin out from there and tell interesting stories and get into backstory like this. Up until the time Adam [Glass] came up with the notion, we hadn’t really explored that side of the family, Grandpa Winchester. But we thought that the idea of it, of harkening back to what Cupid said and how this was all ordained and was top priority [for heaven], it just was a nice closing of that circle for us and also gives us this new home base that’s sort of chalk full of information and will certainly lead to other stories. So, you’ll see that open up next week and it’s cool.
How much of that idea for [hiding] the box [and walking away] might be foreshadowing for the tablets? Are we supposed to think maybe they’re better off not finding and decoding all of these tables?
You guys are always so ahead of us. [Laughs.] This all plays into the tablet business. Again, if Crowley got his hands on the angel tablet and could somehow decipher it, that would be kind of a bad thing. The information that’s contained in this Men of Letters bunker, if it fell into the wrong hands, would be quite a powerful weapon against the boys, so it has to remain a secret and guarded closely. As we go down the line into the rest of this year and hopefully next year, those sort of dramatic turns will take place because this is an important place.
Are there actually other members there?
No. They’re all gone. The Men of Letters are all gone, the last surviving one was the old guy in the home. He’s no more. A bit of a spoiler alert, when they go in there it’s pristine. It’s been hermetically sealed and everything was just as it was. I mean it’s perfectly neat. The only sign that somebody had to get out of there in a hurry was a chess game that was uncompleted and an ash tray full of cigarettes.
Henry talks a lot about their legacy and their lineage, does this get Sam and Dean thinking about their blood line? Like what happens after they die and there’s no one to carry on all of this?
That’s interesting. I don’t think the boys think that far, to having children of their own. Maybe Sam thought of that earlier in the year before he tragically had to leave Amelia. It may come into play down the line somehow. I don’t think a full-time domestic Sam or a domestic Dean is something that the audience is particularly interested in.
Will we see characters that we saw a lot the first part of the season like Benny, Kevin? Could they be popping back up?
Kevin will be back, Benny will be back. Castiel is back. Maybe Amelia, maybe not. But I think pretty much every season we like to bring the season full circle and get a lot of questions answered of that season but then pose new questions for whatever the next season is going to be. So, I think all these people we introduced will have a payoff. One of my first bosses in the business said don’t introduce a character that you don’t pay off. That’s something I kind of live by.
Do you feel fairly confident that there will be another season?
I’ve been around this long enough to know you never feel confident about anything. I remember years ago I did a show and the head of an unnamed network said there’s not a stick big enough to keep this show off the air. Then they flew to New York for the meetings and somewhere over Denver through 33 thousand they found a stick because it didn’t get on. I think we’ve done really well this year. I think creatively it’s been good. I think by and large the network is happy with our numbers. So, if I were a betting man I would bet that we would be back.
We started off last week with the brothers kind of in this shaky truce. Have we completely moved past that [fight] or is that still in the back of their minds?
I don’t think it’s shaky. I think … what happens in subsequent episodes is it’s another kind of conflict between them but it’s not necessarily the conflict of “do I want to do this?” or “what’s my plan beyond closing the gates of the Hell?” or any of that. It’s a new conflict. I won’t tell you any more than that but as always, there’s always something going on between them.
I’m going to ask about Dean’s hostility toward Henry. Of course, that’s because he left his family, or at least Dean thought he did. Is there anything in the back of his mind about just how bad things turned out with his grandfather on the other side of the family? His hesitancy to trust someone like that again?
No. I don’t think he relates those two things at all. I think this was strictly familial. Dean had probably a more complicated relationship than Sam did with John. It was pretty clear to Sam early on thought “I want to get out of this, I want to go to college.” That didn’t quite work out but I think he had a clearer mindset. Dean, I think, was more conflicted about his dad. It’s been pretty consistent throughout the show that Dean is always in defense of dad and John made the ultimate sacrifice for Dean. I think he takes this stuff just a little more personally than Sam does. That’s kind of what you’ll see in this last episode that’s reflected there.
Did you guys ever think about keeping Henry alive just even if you sent him back just so he could come back or was it always decided that he would perish in the end?
No. I think we wanted to close it and I think it was kind of a nice, bittersweet moment. They got to make a connection with a grandfather they never knew. One of the themes I think that we’ve always played is that people they get close to, it doesn’t work out so well for them, and they’re kind of traditional loners and what they have is each other. I think we wanted to keep it that way. That was always the plan with Samuel as well, that that would not be something that would go on for a long time.
Now that you opened the Winchester can of worms, are there any plans to bring in that side of the family further like you did before with the Campbells?
Not at the moment. But pretty much every year we kind of block out, in very general terms at the beginning of the season, the theme of the season and what we want it to be. Sometimes early on we don’t exactly know where it ends, we just know where we’re going but not how we finish it. That would be a discussion for next year that comes up in the room. I mean basically what’s always happened, whether Eric was there or Sera was there and now Jeremy, is basically the two of us sit in a room for about a week and just kind of throw all kinds of stuff around and then come up with a very loose structure. Then we bring all the rest of the writers in and start filling in the pieces. But we always feel that we want to, like I said, bring that season’s story to a close but open up a new doorway for next year.
The information that they have in the room is obviously going to be pretty valuable. Are they going to share it with other hunters like Garth?
I think that’s probably on a need-to-know basis. I don’t think they’re going to have a hunter convention in there and welcome everybody in and have at it. That’s really not their style. I would be surprised if Garth didn’t show up and probably break an expensive globe.
What can you tease about Castiel’s return?
He’s really crucial to the tablet stories. He’s going through sort of a trial of his own that’s personal. Naomi is very unhappy with him, Crowley is very unhappy with him. He’s a confused angel right now.
The show just confirmed the angel tablet [two weeks ago]. Can we expect more tablets to be brought up?
Not this year. I mean we have the demon tablet, the angel tablet and then the leviathan tablet. That’s about all the tablets we could handle.
Do the guys have any serious questions about actually keeping a home base? I imagine it’s really great to have one solid set but considering [what they're facing] on a weekly basis, is there any concern like “we’re hiding from something super, super dangerous and we’re stating exactly where that is”?
Well, they’re not saying it. They’ll go to great pains to keep that hidden. You know, also it’s kind of impenetrable. We’ve had places before — we had Rufus’ cabin — they need a place not just for us to be able to have a set to shoot on, but I think the boys actually need a place where they can decompress, have their bromance moments. The other sets we’ve had, they’re not the biggest. When you see this set, you realize they have lots of room to move around and there’s lots of really cool things in there. So Adam [Glass] came up with this idea and we really latched onto it immediately. It’s a very expensive set, so we’re going to be using it.
Speaking of permanency, the women on the show don’t last. Do you feel like you’re getting closer to finding the type of girl that could maybe last?
Felicia [Day] is going to be coming back in an episode. We love Felicia. I don’t think there’s ever going to be a third wheel. I don’t think we’re going to have Catwoman. It’s been sort of the feedback that we get that that’s not something that the fanbase particularly likes. We keep trying. I personally really thought the Amelia character was great. I thought it opened up a side of Sam that was really interesting. I thought Liane did a terrific job. I don’t think it’s ever going to be a three-hander. Listen, part of the appeal is they’re the last men standing. That’s who they are.
Is there anything you can say about Felicia’s episode?
The one that will be coming out? We know she’s going to be in it, we’re just breaking the story now. I know that she basically brings them a case, but beyond that I can’t tell you a whole lot.
You said we’re going to see Benny again. Can you tell us anything about the issues that he was having the last time we saw him?
Well, he was really fighting the good fight of trying to not give in to his blood-lust. I think Dean having to basically cut the tie was a hard thing for him. So, we will explore that idea of what he’s been going through in a while. But we didn’t feel that and never felt that that story was totally ended. You know, it’s probably not great drama to end the whole arc on a phone call. [Laughs.]
But are we completely done with the flashbacks for both Dean and Sam?
Yeah.
Do you guys consider the Amelia arc pretty wrapped up now? You said she might come back down the line but in terms of that storyline being finished?
We think she’s a really valuable character. We liked her a lot and certainly it creates a good complication in Sam’s life. Again, we’re just kind of doing the end of the season now in the room. I know that we’ve talked about bringing her back. We don’t have anything specific.
Are you planning on ending the season on a cliffhanger?
I’m sure we will. It’s worked for seven years. [Laughs.] I always think about what you guys want to know. There’s an old show business saying, leave them wanting more. I think for pretty much eight plus seasons now we’ve done that. So, I suspect there’ll be some hanging chad, yeah.
Can you just tell us a little bit about what you think about Dean’s feelings about time travel?
Time travel sucks, man … He loves it when he’s a cowboy or he gets to work with Eliot Ness. I think he was talking specifically about “do I really need this guy popping out of my closet and bringing up the whole dad thing and now I’ve got to have a mixed emotion about this guy?” The guy was not the nicest guy to them. It was almost like he was tolerating them. Then when he wants to go back, which could basically, possibly cancel their existence, Dean thought that time travel was not so much fun.
This new set, where are Sam and Dean going to hide the car?
That’s a good question because we don’t have a Batcave but I’ll bring that up. That’s a good question.
Sam has kind of been wavering all season long about whether this was something he wanted to do. But he kind of said at the end of the episode that now he understands he sees why it’s all necessary and mythically destined. Would you say that this episode solidifies why he feels that what they’re doing is necessary?
Well, when we get into this whole idea of closing the gates of hell, that becomes a real raison d’etre for Sam. I think … it’s really revenge motivated. It’s about everything that … it’s what killed their mom, killed all their friends, all that. I think Sam would say that there’s a certain amount of closure if they could actually pull this off. I think still, he in the back of his mind thinks there’s a normal life out there for him. In a way, Dean’s onboard with that. He’d like to see [Sam] happy but they have this one thing to do. Now, television being television, they’ll have something else “one thing to do” down the line.
I think it’s a good separation of character for the two of them that one has one set of dreams and actually allows himself to dream while the other one is much more fatalistic and sort of accepts that. I would hope whenever we bring the curtain down that Dean would find some peace, and probably if I have anything to say about it he will.
But Dean’s still very committed to hunting?
Yeah. He would like to finish this particular job and then he would go off and do what he does, [find something else to hunt].
Mythology-wise this episode really changed what we knew about the Winchesters. I think it’s safe to say your fans are very protective of the mythology. Was there anything you wanted to avoid?
No, not really. I mean we really go where the story takes us. We’re not afraid to try new things. We honor the mythology, we don’t make arbitrary left turns just for the sake of “that would be a good story beat,” but it’s ever evolving. We always feel that and are really trying to keep the stories fresh. So new things happen and we embrace them. That’s why I think we end up doing “LARP and the Real Girl” and living in cartoons and all that. We’re not afraid to really bend any sort of reality. If it works in our reality then it works. We’ve done some crazy stuff. In this episode, I’m always the jaundiced eye in the room when these things come up. I’m like the official “Supernatural” bullshit meter. But Jeremy and Guy say, “Oh no, this’ll be good.” I go, “Really?” Then I see “LARP and the Real Girl” and I go, “Wow. That’s really a good episode.” I’m the oldest whore on the block but I’m learning day by day as well.
[It seems like] you wanted Henry to be a good guy. I mean you could have gone back and told a story of how he went out for milk and ran off with another woman …
Yeah. That felt really right to us. Again, this idea of them meeting their grandfather and understanding all this knowledge that they’ve carried all their lives [about John], that his dad left him and sort of became then this guy that he was, was all untrue. Then the idea if you could actually speak to John and say “this is what happened … All that anger you carried: not real.” I mean that has a certain amount of pathos to it.
In addition to everything else we do, I think one of the reasons we’ve lasted as long as we have is because we tell these personal stories. Really, whatever the plot of the week is, ultimately it comes down to “how are the brothers feeling about it, how does it affect their relationship, what’s underneath the surface of the story?” The subtext and the character developments are always … I mean, after we get the basic “let’s tell a story about …” we go “what’s the emotional story here?” We thought this was a good emotional story.
A minute ago, you were talking about Sam kind of adding to the geeky aspects of his legacy and obviously he’s getting involved in the trials and everything. Where does that leave Dean?
Well, if you boil it down simply you’d say Sam is more the brains and Dean is more the brawn. I can’t remember which episode … where Sam makes a speech and he says, “You’re the greatest hunter I’ve ever seen. You’re better than Dad.” That’s Dean. He’s probably much more internal than Sam in a way. I think that when they get into these emotional areas the catalyst is more Sam. So, those are the characters we developed. Dean loves the information if he can act on it. “Oh great, what do we need?” “You need the cimetar from the 13th century to chop the guy’s head off.” “Great. Let’s go find it and do it.” That’s Dean.
The guys have said some crappy things to each other and they’ve had this friction that’s been boiling over all season. From your perspective in the writers’ room, has that all been resolved now? Are they going to have a big emotional talk again?
I think you can count on a big emotional talk, yeah. [Laughs.] Yeah, without giving it away, for kind of a different reason, for something that they didn’t see coming … Starting next week, that thing will carry through to the end of the year.
Can we assume Grandma was just a normal person or does she have some kind of secret story too?
Wow. I don’t know. Maybe in year 10 we’ll meet Grandma.
The more you tap into the Winchester history, are there ever still temptations to find a way to bring back Jeffrey Dean Morgan? I know he’s obviously busy with “Magic City.”
You know, we’ve talked about that on occasion but since he’s really sort of not available and God knows he had a great sendoff. It doesn’t get a whole lot talk in the room, no.
What do you think of Robert Singer’s teases for Season 8? Are you looking forward to seeing Benny and Castiel again?
Laura Prudom Become a fan
laura.prudom@huffingtonpost.com
Posted: 01/30/2013 9:59 pm EST | Updated: 01/30/2013 10:18 pm EST
Comment by pam53 — January 31, 2013 @ 10:48 am
I hope they locate and highlight room with all the spells and power and that the winchester get to use it…sam seemed eager to benefit from. hopefully it is unlike what they did with Castiel and the stolen weapons of heaven…that plot pretty died on arrival never dispalying a singal weapon.
purhap we will henry again…can’t help but to notice that he was buried instead of ahunter funeral.
Comment by WTW — January 31, 2013 @ 12:14 pm
Sorry, about the double post, something wrong with my web link????????????????????????
Comment by pam53 — January 31, 2013 @ 12:47 pm
sorry
Comment by pkl53 — January 31, 2013 @ 12:55 pm
like last night episode
Comment by pkl53 — January 31, 2013 @ 12:58 pm
First of all, Henry Winchester was NOT a hunter, he was a “Legacy” in a ‘Free Mason’ type of brotherhood called “The Men of Letters”. The episode makes THIS VERY CLEAR.
I loved how they brought the Winchester family tree out in the story line, and about time too. Although it is a very sad part of the story. For example, John never new what really happened to Henry and Sam and Dean had to make the very hard decision not to let Henry go back, so he could be there for John. And its not the first time they have had to make that decision and then lost someone so horribly.
They never called Castiel into the episode because he has his own drama. They were not going to risk bringing his broken angel ass into an already fudged situation. That thought had occured to me both when Henry said he needed those ingredients to go back and when Abadon killed Henry and he lay dying in Sam and Dean’s arms. I thought, “He’s dying! call Cas!”. But if Henry would have lived he would have returned to his time, Sam and Dean might not exist and we might have had a completely different show that probably would not have might it past season 5…. that would be bad. As Dean says; “Freakin’ Time Travel”. If it weren’t confusing, it probably wouldn’t be worth watching.
Killing off main characters, other then Sam Dean, who have died more times then anyone on the show. Most of the Winchester / Campbell bloodline has all been eradicated simply because they would have gotten in the way of Sam and Dean, and the roles they had to play in the Apocalypse. Which was made very clear all through season 1,2,3,4 and 5. But we also need to remembered that when it comes to SUPERNATURAL, nobody ever really dies.
What i loved about the episode: The way that Henry had the upper hand on Sam and Dean even though he was completely out of his element. The handcuff trick was Awesomely hilarious. And i kinda wanted Henry to get punched in the face for breaking a window in the Impala. And the Devil’s Trap on the end of the bullet, that was genius, they really did wait for just the right time to use that. And i knew once Henry started reading John’s journal it would turn the episode into ‘chaos’.
Like i said, the episode was incredibly SAD Yet very strangely, enlightening. Simply because you get to see Henry Winchester as a bad ass in his own way. Which is not surprising that he would be, cause he is a Winchester.
All in all the purpose of the whole Key in the Box, that is suppose to go to some huge Magically Supernatural library, must tie in with the “Words of God” / “closing the gates of hell forever” storyline, and if not then whats the point of it…. ‘That Henry died for a key to a library that didn’t help Sam and Dean save the world.’ I’m sure Sam will use his genius mind to find some weapons to use against any enemies within this ‘library’.
There was something about this episode, i was glued tighter to the TV then i usually ever have been, when i watch this show.
At least out of all the heartfelt episodes, I would have to say, that is my favorite episode yet.
Comment by brie — January 31, 2013 @ 1:01 pm
@ SL #11: Brie brings up a good point. This episode was dark and serious and didn’t have any of the comedy moments that usually lighten up the episode. Maybe that’s the “empty” part you felt.
Personally, I thought that fit the tone of the episode and wouldn’t have liked it as much if it had been ‘lightened’ up.
Comment by Sheri — January 31, 2013 @ 1:26 pm
I loved this episode. The first time this season I could feel the brotherly bond between Sam and Dean. The importance of family, their love and their strong bond are the most important things on Supernatural! I hope they’ll go on like this! I was really tired of the endless fighting…
Comment by Sandy — January 31, 2013 @ 2:32 pm
@brie I thought the same thing when Henry hit baby. Oh is Dean gonna be pissed. Yeah this episode rocked hardcore. Felt very old school spn.
Comment by AW — January 31, 2013 @ 3:16 pm
I loved this episode!!!!!
Comment by mj — January 31, 2013 @ 5:44 pm
pam53–thanks for the post
Sheri–Oh Yes. I have the same fear. They are perfectly capable of throwing out this opening and proceeding to angels fighting angels and Kevin and angels calling in the Winchesters for some cameos and supporting roles in their stories. Sam could return to his sleaze-bag romance and Dean could go off to be with his latest BFF vampire. But at least for a week the prospects of a SPN about the competent and capable Winchester brothers seems a possibility. Who knows? They could become once again brothers selected for a prime role in the supernatural world, not brothers to stumble through the stories of angel battles and the lives of variously assorted teen heroes, village idiots, and any other characters who could be played by various former genre stars.
In addition to what I indicated earlier, I liked the episode for its partial redemption of John. I disliked how Krepki trashed the character. At a minimum, this episode offered some explanation for some of his faults. That garish but cheap motel room featured also brought back fond memories of the creative talent that once went into the motel sets. I also think Gil McKinney (who I had never seen before) did a fine job as Henry, and I thought he was written well. Henry might have been primarily an intellectual, not a man of action, but he had the Winchester attitude of a thorough self confidence that made him simultaneously decisive and potentially foolish and an ingrained stubbornness to a task. He came across as a good man. It actually appeared that some writer actually tried to have Henry largely reflect many of the attributes of Dean and Sam.
Much of the Singer interview actually looks like there could be some interesting things coming up for the Winchesters–and Singer does seem to basically see a Sam and Dean that appeals to me. The new home base for the guys sounds like a good move; at least, it implies real thought being given to how the Winchesters are presented. I’d also suggest they would not spend a chunk of change on a new large set unless there was an overwhelming expectation of a season 9 and probably 10. My guess is that Singer simply doesn’t want to say bad things about Amelia so he is doing the nice thing and praising her; surely he reads some fan reaction.
The .9 finals share last night tied Arrow in share and was another solid performance overall. While Arrow slumped to an all time low; SPN stayed steady. Too bad sweeps begins tonight (the 31st).
Comment by CaseyT — January 31, 2013 @ 5:53 pm
@Casey - Interesting. Sounds like a lot of the people who watched Green Arrow were doing so before watching SPN. I know that’s what I did.
Comment by T1gerlilly — January 31, 2013 @ 6:28 pm
by which I mean - they were only watching Green Arrow because it was before SPN. And I only bother watching Green Arrow because they’ve cast Colton Haynes as Speedy and I’m waiting for him to show up.
Comment by T1gerlilly — January 31, 2013 @ 6:29 pm
@ CaseyT: Yes, I thought Singer’s overall comments about the brothers fit with my idea of the Winchesters, too.
I was very happy to see what Dean thinks of John now. That not only pleased me, but it was what Dean would think in my mind.
Henry was a very good character and played by a good actor. I also thought the woman did a terrific job with Abaddon. She brought just the right amount of evil and intimidation to the role, without being a woman caricature like so many of the women on SPN are. Ever bit as good as Casey (Sin City), and even Meg 1, I thought.
I have no doubt the writers will FU the potentiality this expanded methodology brings with it, but for this week, I’m going to bask in all the possibilities it introduced. Maybe this is Carver’s move to turn the show around. I didn’t expect him to be able to do it on a dime, but I never expected anything so bad as Samelia, the wasted Purgatory, or the weak tablet mytharc.
Comment by Sheri — January 31, 2013 @ 6:55 pm
Me personally, I am really interested in finding out what this new conflict is that they didn’t see coming. Could it have anything to do with this lady in 8/14?
That episode is right before Valentine’s Day. I’m sure we’ll see Sam pining over Amelia again. Or maybe Dean is going to have a brief(note, I said brief) romance with this lady and Sam gets resentful because he feels he had to give up Amelia for this mission, so Dean shouldn’t have any outside attachments either. And when I say this, I’m not saying it in a snarky way towards Sam, because I could actually understand him still being a bit raw emotionally about that breakup. And also, I’m just speculating here, because honestly I wouldn’t have any idea what other conflict they wouldn’t see coming. Anybody have any guesses? I know they are going to debate each other on which one should take these three tests, but that doesn’t seem to me like something that would cause a conflict between them.
Sheri, it does sound to me like they are not done with Amelia yet. Both Jeremy Carver and Jared said that she could be the love of Sam’s life.(And sorry, I still think if Sam can have one, why can’t Dean? Sorry guys for being a broken record) You and I both wish they were but I think we’ll just have to accept it, Amelia will probably be back. As for Benny, I’m almost certain that he is going to end up badly. I’m betting that the ’stranger’ in 8/17 ‘Goodbye Stranger is him. I don’t want to see Benny go bad, I like him, but at the same time, I never want to see anybody taking Sam’s place beside Dean.
Comment by roxi — February 1, 2013 @ 5:09 am
And Sheri, I just read another interview with Robert Singer, and yes, They are trying to quote’ work Amelia in there’. O
Comment by roxi — February 1, 2013 @ 5:18 am
I keep hearing something about a ‘raw and emotional’ talk between the brothers, and I don’t know if that is supposed to be a heart-to-heart or a big blow-up. I really could care less, because they did not resolve anything between the brothers that was brought up in the first nine episodes, the Amelia love story was never sold properly, and I haven’t figured out yet why Benny was even in the season.
It’s just weird that for nine episodes, there was all this brothers not understanding where the other was come from, then Dean accepts responsibility for hurting Sam’s feelings, all Sam’s actions are dropped, they have fun at the Ren Fair, and now they’re working just fine together. WTH, Show? You just wasted nine episodes in a 23 episode season.
I’m rather thinking that Singer was kissing off Amelia in the way they do when stories are epic failures or the actor doesn’t work out, and (hope against hope) we won’t see her again. Jim Michaels said they work about five scripts ahead, and that would put them at 8.19 and no specific plans for Amelia yet. I would have thought she would be the one in Goodbye Stranger, but that is looking more and more like it will be Benny.
We’ll know we’ll see Benny at least one more time. Benny was a great character until they made him needy, and he was embraced by the fans. Perhaps they are trying to think of a way that he can be a recurring next season without having Dean work directly with a vampire. I personally don’t think Dean should work directly with him, because he is a supernatural being. I wonder what happened to the alpha vamp’s, “See you next season.” I was looking forward to that guest star (and may I take this opportunity to say one more time — rather than Garth or Charlie).
Why does this show do away with the interesting characters that actually fit into the SPN world and keep the stupid ones that have no reason to be there?
I am curious as to
Comment by Sheri — February 1, 2013 @ 5:33 am
Loved the episode. And love the fact that the brothers seem ‘normal’ and are working so well together. It had the feel of the earlier episodes, and TBH, if they carry on like this, I’m even willing to forget the ridiculous stuff earlier on without explanations….
Comment by Tammy — February 1, 2013 @ 6:51 am
i just saw the sneek peak to the golem episode -awsome awsome place this “hole” -both sam and dean said son of bitch!! lolol. fantastic.
oh i was thinking on my way home from work today. does anybody know/understand why cas can find the brothers and just pop in out of the blue all of a sudden??? i know this is from waaayyyyy out left field. but i just finished watching s6 again and it dawned on me. wasn’t sam and dean hidden from angels? even cas? so whats up with that??? or is it a plot hole???
Comment by animal — February 1, 2013 @ 2:20 pm
Hey guess what? A new interview with Robert Singer just came out and all he could talk about was how closing the gates of Hell would be a personal mission for Sam. Sam. Not Sam AND Dean mind you. Just Sam. Because of everything Sam has lost and suffered. I guess I just imagined how Dean lost and suffered everything too. How he was ripped apart by Hellhounds. So I guess this means that it will be Sam that takes these tests.
Ok go ahead and get mad at me, I don’t care. SPN really couldn’t care less about Dean. Sam’s story got all the attention and all the flashbacks while Dean’s was dropped/taken away from him, and now it looks like Sam is going to have this story as well. And nowhere in these spoilers and interviews is Dean hardly mentioned. Everything is about Sam,he ’s the one they talk most about, and then Cas and guest stars. Why don’t they just write the character of Dean out of the show? They give him no importance other than supporting Sam and Cas. Sam gets to be the hero again.
And I’m sorry if some of you will mistakenly take this as Sam hate. It’s not, but dammit, as a Dean fan, this is disappointing as hell. I thought he would finally be viewed as an equal lead with Sam, but I guess not, what was I thinking.
Comment by roxi — February 1, 2013 @ 2:48 pm
roxi-with spn and its writers i have come to understand things aren’t always what they seem when they talk about the show and what is coming up with the episodes. imo i think it is dean who does the tests. only because the special effects interview said dean gets a deep bite gash which was really cool for them to portray on screen. now i don’t know for sure so don’t get too excited. and just because closing hell is important to sam doesn’t mean dean isn’t involved somehow. i do understand your pestimistic view about dean though. i am with you 100% -he as yet has gotten no story or anything of importance that plays out for a season. that will be my biggest complaint to pedowitz come seasons end if something doesn’t happen for dean. but i am trying to stay positive because i know like the past 2 seasons s8 is going to end with cas’s story being the “clifhanger”. that in itself might send me packing. but we’ll see. i am going to try to hang on until season end anyway. roxi-be postive. positive thoughts!!!
Comment by animal — February 1, 2013 @ 3:29 pm
Is this the interview on Huff Post?
Comment by inky — February 1, 2013 @ 4:45 pm
Roxi I understand how you feel after hearing Singer’s interviews. But I agree with animal- don’t believe everything that he says in an interview. I have to tell you I am not a big fan of his anymore and I have found that alot of these non-actor interviews mean crap when it comes to the show.
Agree completely with you about Dean, though. He seems to get shafted most of the time there is any kind of major plot line for the season.
But without Dean there would be no show at all. So I willkeep watching- just like I know you will.
Comment by SL — February 1, 2013 @ 5:38 pm
Here are the three reasons I loved this episode.
1. The montage at the beginning with alot of scenes from seasons 1,2 & 3.
2. The speech that Dean gives to Henry about if there is a way to save Sam he will always use it. That is just who Dean is, and always has been.
3. Sam and Dean standing together at Henry’s grave. I realized that Dean takes after the Campbell side of the family tree. He is a Hunter. Sam takes after the Winchester side of the family tree and is a Man of Letters.
This is my favorite episode so far this season.
Comment by mj — February 1, 2013 @ 7:04 pm
Just sunk in that Adam Glass wrote this episode. I thought he’d been justifiably banished to writing Garth episodes. Hard to believe he wrote this, but have to say he deserves a congrats.
Comment by CaseyT — February 1, 2013 @ 7:12 pm
I don’t know SL, I am so sick of the whole show being about only Sam, and no, I don’t hate him, but come on! He gets everything! I was so sure that after the crappy way they dropped Dean’s Purgatory arc in favor of shoving Sam’s Amelia story and flashbacks front and center, that it would be Dean’s turn this time to have a major story but no, Sam gets this as well. What’s the point in Dean even being there? The whole show is about Sam and Cas.
And Sam didn’t even want to get back into the life! But suddenly, closing the Hellgates is only a personal mission for HIM? So what. Dean DIDN’T also lose his mother in a demon made fire? Dean didn’t lose alot and suffer because of this life?
I’l try to hang on a bit longer but I’ll be honest. After reading all these spoilers about Sam and absolutely nothing about Dean, I am beginning to lose my enjoyment of the show. And no, I don’t want it to be suddenly all about Dean. How about some SPN making Dean as important as Sam for once instead of it always being so one sided? Do the SPN producers and writers realize that Dean/Jensen has a lot of fans too, that he’s also interesting as a character and attractive as a man, not just Sam/Jared? I’m guessing THEY don’t think so, so the hell with what Dean/Jensen fans think.
Well, Jensen/ Dean is the actor/ character that first pulled me into SPN, and I know that’s true for alot of other fans as well. It would be just lovely if Singer and Carver would give a damn about us for once.
Comment by roxi — February 2, 2013 @ 5:39 am
Go ahead people, flame me, I don’t care.
Comment by roxi — February 2, 2013 @ 5:41 am
And by the way, if we see the episode and it turns out I’m wrong and Dean does get to be important in taking these tests, I will eat my words, gladly and humbly. But if Dean was going to be the one to take the tests, why would Singer have only talked about Sam and not a word about Dean?
Ok, sorry people for all the ranting. I know it’s just a TV show, but I am so tired and having such a hard time lately, that this interview really set me off. I have so little to look forward to lately and enjoying my favorite character on my favorite TV show is one of them, so when it looks like he’ll get shafted yet again, well.
Comment by roxi — February 2, 2013 @ 5:52 am
@51:
Maybe Sam has to close the gates of hell and dean has to close the gates of heaven and banish all the angels. But we can’t be too hopeful when it comes to dean. Dean never was as important as Sam or even Cass. Even Cass in season 6 had a story that was completely HIS. But not dean. In season 1, he didn’t have any story except looking for john while Sam had visions and psychic abilities. In season 2 dean’s story was john’s secret that was about Sam while Sam was the wonder boy. In season 3, dean had his deal and Sam had ruby. 4 and 5 were the only seasons where dean had a good story but that was completely dropped in 5*18 with Adam coming back and Sam being the true hero. In season 6, dean had Lisa and Ben but IMO that story was awful. They could have handled it much better by showing us a fatherly side of dean but that was completely ignored. In season 7, again he didn’t have any story unless you count killing Amy or seeking revenge for Bobby’s death as a story. In season 8, he had purgatory but that was dropped after what? six, seven episodes although it was the most brilliant idea they had in 3 years but they dropped it without any hesitation and it wasn’t even about dean it was about Cass and benny. So I guess we don’t have to be too optimistic because we’re just going to be disappointed.
When carver said in 8*12 one of the brothers was going to find his position in family’s myth I said to myself that finally they’re going to give dean a connection to supernatural world. Because we were previously shown why Sam was Lucifer’s vessel and i said to myself we’re going to find out why dean had to be Michael’s. Because dean was always more connected to john. but no, that brother, again, was Sam and it’s clearly obvious that Sam’s going to be the new man of letters and whatever secret they’re going to reveal about Winchester family is going to be about Sam and that’s not fair. Don’t the writers count dean as a lead or what?
Comment by bahar — February 2, 2013 @ 6:08 am
@ roxi: I don’t know what interview you are talking about. I haven’t seen one where Singer talks only about Sam. Do you have a link?
One other thing to remember, too, is that Singer ALWAYS talks about Sam. Sam’s his character and always has been. Also, Singer says a lot of things that don’t mean much. For instance, his interview before this episode said that Sam would learn the reason that he was a hunter. From what I saw, both brothers learned their legacy from both sides of the family tree was hunting, so that was pretty bi-bro in my book.
That said, since they’ve set up Dean so blatantly to be the hunter and Sam to be the brains of the outfit, I fully expect a smoking mirror in that it will be Sam assigned to do the big tests (or some random support character). I’ll be majorly pissed off, too, if that happens. But this is SPN, and they have a long, long history of disappointing, of taking great story opportunities and throwing them away for stories like soulless Sam, Lisa/Dean and Samelia.
I see the show at a real crossroads right now. Carver will either turn it around by the end of this season, or they’ll stay with the same tired story that Sam is the hero and Dean lives to be Sam’s handmaiden. My expectations are that if the writers can FU the test story and FU the ‘bunker’, that’s what they will do. But for this one week, I’m still going to hope for the potential they have introduced.
As an aside, my current thoughts are that the writers are keeping Garth’s name front and center until Qualls finishes filming the current project he is working on, and then we’ll see him right back on our screens as Bobby 2.0, which probably means that he will be invited into the bunker the next time we see him. That’s going to piss me off, too. I can’t believe the show discarded Jim Beaver like they did. I was sick of what they did to Bobby’s character, but Jim deserved better treatment than to be killed off and replaced by a joke of a character like Garth.
And I just keep thinking that they have trashed Sam’s character so badly this year, how else would they (predictably, I might add) try to redeem Sam.
Comment by Sheri — February 2, 2013 @ 6:50 am
If the first test is killing a hellhound I don’t think Sam would let dean do it. Dean was torn apart by a hellhound in front of Sam before, so I think the real Sam (not the one we’re seeing this season) wouldn’t let dean take that test.
@52: about the bite scene I think it’s going to be in an episode with Cass in it, to heal it; after all they can’t let dean die. But then again maybe dean is going to take the test and get bitten and that’s when the big talk and emotional scene is going to happen. But I guess we should wait and see.
Comment by bahar — February 2, 2013 @ 7:37 am
I think you guys are totally underestimating Dean. He was the first human to figure out the angel’s blood sigils and use them effectively every time. We know that’s hard, because Bobby screwed them up enough that Cas was able to come in and we know that Henry had a hard time with them too. So it looks like he might be a natural at symbolic magic.
Plus, he is Michael’s vessel, which comes from the Winchester bloodline, and Henry definitely had a similar characteristics to Dean.
Plus Dean is smart. He’s really practical, and doesn’t tend to learn things unless they can help him, but he’s really logical and good at extrapolating from what he knows. Take the whole takedown of Abbadon. Abbadon was a demon, not a leviathan, but he figured out a way to use what he’d learned from fighting leviathan to permanently get rid of Abbadon, such that she wouldn’t just shift to another body or get sent back to hell, just to pop up again.
OK. Yeah, Sam likes learning pretty much anything and he’s a master of modern technology. But think what a great pair they’d make if Dean knew magic and Sam was a master of the web. Kickass, right?
Lastly, if this is an Indiana Jones type test, his heart will be tested. And if either of the brothers can meet that test - we all know Dean’s heart is the best part of him - self-sacrificing and good.
Comment by T1gerlilly — February 2, 2013 @ 7:52 am
OH yeah, and it’s not like he doesn’t have the best teacher EVER in Cas for learning enochian (since that’s what it seems like the spells are in).
Comment by T1gerlilly — February 2, 2013 @ 7:55 am
tigerlilly:
it doesn’t matter what we think or what was shown in the previous episodes. the only thing that matters is what the show runner thinks. plus, based on charlie’s episode Sam is the one who makes great sacrifices and has big heart.
Comment by bahar — February 2, 2013 @ 8:10 am
i loved this episode! I know you said the story line, with Henry Winchester is a done deal, but you should not introduce a character to fans,and we instantly fall in love with! i don’t care how but bring him back! Dean,Henry and Sam just where perfect together! HELL THIS IS SUPERNATRUAL, ANYTHING POSSIBLE! I’m still are praying, hoping beyond hope that Jeffery Dean Morgan makes his way back before this magnificent series ends. George came back to ER!
Comment by ywilliams — February 2, 2013 @ 8:31 am
Roxi–I fully agree that Dean hasn’t gotten a complete separate story from start to finish, and I wish he would. But, I don’t see it as “all about Sam.” The series is simply set up with Dean at its center. (I think someone interested in Sam primarily would say it is “all about Dean.”) Dean’s role is largely relational. Dean plays the principal role in almost every well developed relationship with every character in the series. Castiel, Bobby, Benny, Garth, Charlie, Kevin–almost every other character–has their primary relationship with Dean, not Sam. Even in this episode, like almost every other character, the primary dialogue between the brothers and Henry was with Dean. In the previous episode, Charlie’s dialogue was largely with Dean. Dean’s the central figure in the family, both the literal family and the extended family of characters like Castiel. From that standpoint, it is all about Dean. However, that has meant that Dean is most often a mere device through which each of those characters and their stories are brought into SPN. My main objection to Castiel is that Dean’s is in his story and much of Dean’s role has been to react to Castiel’s doings for five seasons now.
The downside is that Dean gets no distinctive story himself; he is always a co-player in someone else’s story including Sam’s story. As the series has evolved, Sam cannot be that family-centered figure; he wasn’t even as a child. He is free to go off with demons, suffer addiction, even be domestic or soulless. I guess Dean/Michael could have killed Sam/Lucifer; I guess Dean could have stayed with Lisa, but those are end-games. I guess the writers could shake up the series and have Sam, Dean, and Castiel as co-equals with their own plots, but Sera tried that in 6 and it was too disconnected and without any core; the core is Dean playing off all the principal characters. Don’t know how this can be changed. But, IMO Dean dominates the series in its depiction of relationships and Sam has in action stories with Castiel assuming some of that action role in several seasons. I’d love to see some of the characters introduced by Sam into the Winchester world and communicate primarily through Sam so we could free up Dean to have an action story from beginning to end. Would love to see the Castiel plot play primarily through Sam to free Dean from servicing that story. Don’t think any of that is going to happen however. At least that’s my take.
Sheri–agree about Garth and I too will be pissed with him in this new supernatural center. Bobby would fit perfectly. Can you explain how Glass wrote that episode?
t1gerlilly–I am surprised, but I think it may be that much of the audience simply sees intelligence as expressed only in the very traditional way of formal education, research, and ability to give a complicated answer. Much of the audience may well be middle class and have little appreciation of working class smarts. From that viewpoint, Sam has the credentials in traditional marks of intelligence so he is being unfairly depicted as more intelligent than Dean. I think Dean is depicted as extremely bright in negotiating this world, the supernatural world, and in his ability to relate and understand people from kids to old age. I’ve never seen Sam as being depicted as more intelligent than Dean. Dean was brought up in a world where he had to learn street smarts; Sam had a wider exposure to the world. Those backgrounds are assets to both; one background has not been presented as superior to the other rather each background has strengthened the pair.
Comment by CaseyT — February 2, 2013 @ 8:46 am
i think to writers dean is like a cockroach, whatever happens, wherever he goes and whenever he dies, he just keeps coming back and that’s the only quality he has!(kidding)
he had a good heart, he was kind and caring and they’re taking that away from him too. in 8*10 he discarded Benny like a piece of sh*t, in 8*12 he was the reason for his GRANDFATHER’s death and he didn’t even seem regretful. he was the real reason his beloved dad was fatherless and nevertheless he didn’t let Henry back to his time to try and fix it.and was really hard on Henry for no good reason. he doesn’t act like dean any more. IMO they’re not only trashing Sam’s character, they’re trashing dean’s too.
even if we say dean had a plan, he knew it was a dangerous one but nonetheless he was selfish enough to not let Henry get back to his son because he didn’t want to risk his and Sam’s existent. that was just so selfish and out of character for dean. just remember that episode in season 5 where he and Sam met young Mary and john. that’s how Sam and dean would act. and Sam’s actions was even worse. dean had a plan but Sam didn’t know it. he was pretty comfortable to be exchanged with his granddad even if he knew it meant death for Henry and the only thing he says to him is “i’m sorry” and starts running to dean like some damsel in distress. that was WAAAAAYYY out of character for Sam.
Comment by bahar — February 2, 2013 @ 9:08 am
Dean has always been the center of spn IMO. he is the constant to keep all the variables connected. He is the rock, stone number one, as he put it. The starting point that all other things are built on. He is Dean, it doesn’t get more important than that.
Sam is just as important as the main variable, always wavering. But Dean always brings him back. This is the very core of the show.
As for Bobby, he is dead. They killed him and his ghost. He can’t be their Alfred. So choose Garth or Kevin I would take Garth every time. At least his character is entertaining. Not much good in a fight but smart enough to be good on the phone.
Comment by AW — February 2, 2013 @ 9:14 am
Henry would likely have died in the process of going back because he was supposed to wait a week for his soul to recharge. Dean only said the stuff about he and Sam not existing because Henry was going to foolishly risk his life to get back to John. and obviously not ever being born would suck, there is that too.
Comment by AW — February 2, 2013 @ 9:21 am
Rather than get caught up in all the hoopla of the past I can not WAIT to finally see the brothers get a break and have this long lineage of magic and knowledge make them even better hunters and even hopefully embrace their father’s father’s heritage. Im glad as a fan they gave me more to why Winchesters are important, why the family bloodline has always been tied to the supernatural, and really why the brothers were born to do what they do. I love the direction of this episode and I couldnt fault a single thing. I have to be honest, the first couple of episodes of this season really didnt appeal to me, larp and the real girl rocked tho, but this direction I think can really be built on and parlayed into 2 more seasons. Remember the Men of Letters shared their knowledge to a trusted few- maybe the brothers will have a hunter family somehow in the future- maybe they will be the bobbys of other hunters. Who knows- but I think closing the gates of hell will be a task for BOTH of them, and honestly I think both brothers were highlighted in this episode, so I dont understand the arguing for or against one having more time or story than the other. This episode was about family, didnt anyone else think that?
Comment by Bella — February 2, 2013 @ 10:45 am
Singer did not say Sam would be the player to close the Gates of Hell. He did not exclude Dean from that story. He was commenting about Sam’s motivation in being involved in that plot; Dean could be equally or more involved in that plot. Singer was obviously addressing why the guy who’d supposedly rejected hunting would be involved in the closing the Gates of Hell story at all. He neither excluded Dean or said Sam would have the key role there.
Comment by CaseyT — February 2, 2013 @ 11:00 am
@bahar: I think you’re missing the point. If Dean would have allowed Henry to go back, it wasn’t a matter of him and Sam not existing:
1. If Henry would have succeeded, it would have thrown all the stories in the series out up to that point, and especially if Sam and Dean failed to exist. The result would have been worse than Swan Song.
2. If Henry was not successful, Sam would have been dead. Henry was thinking about himself and John, and he wanted to go back to ‘fix’ that. Dean was thinking about Sam, whose life was in danger. There is no way that Dean would rely on someone else to ’save’ Sam while he stood by and hoped for the best, and especially a guy that he had known for one day; and,
3. Henry bought into the plan and knew the risk he was taking with a demon that could not be killed. That’s why the line, “You have to get in close, blah, blah” (can’t remember the whole thing right now), he accepted that. He and Dean worked together to save Sam.
I agree with AW and CaseyT that Dean is the one that connects all parties to the supernatural stories. To expand on what CaseyT says, Sam digs out the myths and usually finds out how to kill the monsters (the scholarly research). It is Dean who has a great imagination that comes from his street living (the pragmatism). He’s the one that comes up with the out-of-box plans when Plan A goes to hell in a hand basket: to burn down the house the thought form was living in (S1 Hell House), to surround the serial killer ghost in salt and trap him with cement (S2 No Exit), to bury the crazy doctor in cement (S3 Time Is On My Side), the plan in Jus In Bello (S3), drink the Phoenix ash in Mommy Dearest (S6), and here, learned from his experience with the Levi, he cut off the head and was going to chop up the corpse into little pieces, drive them all over the country and encase each piece in cement. Brilliant, and also a really gruesome image (which I appreciated, because that gives a real visual of what it takes real hunters to do (as opposed to going to Yoga class and living a carefree life like Garth).
An, yes, AW, Henry was weakened. There is no way he could have succeeded; therefore, leaving Sam dead.
Comment by Sheri — February 2, 2013 @ 11:10 am
bella, how was it about family when they literary got their grandfather killed for saving themselves? that was the part that didn’t sit with me at all. the Winchester brothers were always Selfless compassionate people that would always put other people’s needs first and i loved them for it. how am i supposed to watch dean force another man(let alone their grandfather, their family)to help them, when he knew it was going to get him killed (and Henry himself didn’t want to), and like it? how was he any different than Samuel? he was sacrificing his grandsons to have his daughter back while dean was sacrificing his granddad to save his brother. how is that any different? that’s my biggest problem with this season, they’re trashing Sam and Dean’s moral bearings. first they have Sam not looking for his brother without any reasonable explanation. then they give him a married girlfriend and add adultery to the list. then they have dean abandoning his (albeit needy) friend in the time of need. then they have them both getting their granddad killed for saving themselves. how am i supposed to like these people?
however i can’t stop watching it because of the first five seasons, because of who they were. i just keep hoping the writers would realize what they’re doing to these characters, how they’re making them unlikable and selfish and somehow fix it. but i know that’s a lost cause, they always do what they want to do. they never listen to the fans.
Comment by bahar — February 2, 2013 @ 11:35 am
sheri, my whole problem was that Henry didn’t want to come with dean, dean knocked him out and forced him to come. i’m sure if he was going to die, Henry would prefer to die while trying to fix his relationship with his son not saving some guy he met an hour ago.
and with what cupid said i’m sure whatever happened and whether Henry could make it back or not, the angels would make sure of Sam and dean’s existence. just think about it, if john was the next man of letters, with his knowledge he would never let the Apocalypse start, let alone happen.
i liked this episode, i just didn’t like how they handled Henry’s death. i understand he had to die but i don’t have to like the way it happened.
i’m just saying the dean of the first five seasons would never act like this.
Comment by bahar — February 2, 2013 @ 11:57 am
bahar-i think you misunderstood the scene with dean “handcuffing” and pointing a gun at henry during the switch for sam. that was all an act. that was part of the plan so that abbadon??? spelling?? wouldn’t think it was a hoax. henry was handcuffed because dean new he could get out of them. (remember the hotel scene??) and henry knew it was a risk but he did it because he new it was the right thing to do. dean didn’t “make” henry do anything. i think you misunderstood the scene.
Comment by animal — February 2, 2013 @ 12:11 pm
and yes bahar dean would act like this -he always has-because it was sammy’s life. dean has ALWAYS done what is needed to be done to save sam. i found it interesting that conversation with henry about that because obbiously sam would NOT do whatever it takes. -he didn’t-he never looked for dean. i found that contrast interesting.
Comment by animal — February 2, 2013 @ 12:15 pm
animal, i’m talking about the scene when dean knocked Henry out and then Henry woke up in the car half way to the warehouse. i know every thing that happened after that was an act but even if Henry refused to help i think dean would knock him out again. and what about Sam? he wasn’t aware of their plan, but he didn’t try to help Henry at all. and after Sam and Henry were exchanged, dean just ran for the door. i actually kind of laughed at that scene, i thought dean was going to get little Sammy someplace safe and then return and help Henry alone! like Sam isn’t capable of protecting himself. for god’s sake Sam is bigger that any people I’ve ever seen! he doesn’t need protecting any more. i thought dean understood that in season five.
and no, dean would never sacrifice OTHER people for sam. he would (and did) die for him without blinking but would never hurt other people.
but other than that i agree with you. i think it would be better if dean was kidnapped and sam was the one who forced henry to help them. at least that way we could leave the whole sam not caring about dean thing behind.
Comment by bahar — February 2, 2013 @ 12:38 pm
dean wasn’t sacrificing henry-they had a hunter plan-yea henry got killed -which is what the “natural order of things” was called for. henry never was supposed to come back from that time jump. -look- sam was a hostage in the present time. henry wanted to go BACK in time to change the past to kill abbadon and give john a life. but there was no proof postive that would work and dean couldn’t take that chance because sam was in danger now. henry wasn’t strong enough to do the time jump because his soul wasn’t reenergized yet. so dean did what he had to do to save sam. period. and he had to stop henry from going back. so he knoked him out. good on dean for that.!!
Comment by animal — February 2, 2013 @ 12:47 pm
i know i spelled things wrong-darn keyboard and fingers!!!
Comment by animal — February 2, 2013 @ 12:50 pm
@ bahar #75: As I see it, in the end Henry choose John and his “legacies” (i.e., family) over going back when he agreed to work with Dean.
As far as the angels, I see no reason why any of them would be interested in resurrecting Sam or Dean. The ‘vessel’ story is over and done, and Cas, their BFF, is out of the picture at the moment. If anything, S&D have done nothing but mess up the angels’ plans.
As far as whether Sam would try to help Dean or not, I think we’re supposed to assume that ‘the brother bond’ is fixed once they had the little fun day at the Ren Fair.
I know if the writers want to pretend the first nine episodes of the season didn’t happen, I’m go along with it. Sam’s story was terrible, Dean’s Purgatory experience didn’t mean anything, and the mythar was so weak, I don’t even know what it is. A restart of the season now sounds pretty good to me.
Comment by Sheri — February 2, 2013 @ 1:02 pm
animal 79:
i think you’re right. i didn’t look at it that way. after dean acted like a jerk, i was so mad i didn’t really pay much attention to the rest of the episode!
sheri: i agree with you too, i just don’t understand why would the writers write the first 9 episodes like that and then pretend nothing has happened. why would they bother to go to that length to show us the brothers have a lot of issues and suddenly drop it all without resolving one damn thing? it’s like they wanted something to write about while they’d figured out what the main arc would be, and what was easier than brothers throwing some punches at each other? then again if they’d have solved the problems that was with them from the first episode of the show, i wouldn’t be so baffled. if they’d have healed their bond i would really be happy. but instead they decided to ignore all the issues that are there. and right now the brother’s relationship is as wrong and toxic as it could be and this season was supposed to be about maturity and character growth.
Comment by bahar — February 2, 2013 @ 1:28 pm
@ bahar: I have no idea what the first nine episodes of the season were for, but the writers solved all the problems with Dean admitting to being wrong for sending the text. That’s all we got, so I’m pretending that the first nine episodes were an epic fail and the writers have moved on. It’s kind of nice to think that Dean got himself out of Purgatory somehow, the brothers hooked up and romped with their little sister at a Ren Fair, and now the season’s mytharc is revealed with a cool new ‘home.’ Meanwhile, both brothers are committed to a hunt for something because that is their legacy.
And, please don’t ask what the difference is between being ‘legacies’ and the whole destiny thing we went tried to avoid by using free will for five years, because I don’t have a clue.
Comment by Sheri — February 2, 2013 @ 2:15 pm
bahar–Saw it differently. I did not think for a minute that Dean was going to surrender Henry in a straightforward swap for Sam, and I was confident Sam was thinking the same thing. Sam was simply playing the passive hostage knowing that at some point Dean would make a move to free him and Henry and get Abadondon. Sam knew something was coming; he had to play his role until Dean revealed his plan of action.
Dean had always been told that Henry abandoned his dad as a child; Dean knows John was flawed and he rightfully has concluded that Henry’s abandonment was some of, if not the primary, source of his father’s problems. Henry is not going to get a loving embrace from Dean. From the information Dean had, Henry did not deserve any embrace by a son of John. Henry was going to have to explain his actions toward John and prove his worthiness to Dean. That’s classic level-headed Dean.
Henry’s time travel was in the end a mistake; it cost him his life and abandonment of his son. That was Henry’s mistake. Dean wasn’t going to pay for Henry’s mistake with his and Sam’s life; that wasn’t being selfish, to me that was level-headed Dean again. Henry’s mistake had unfortunate consequences, but that was his mistake, not his grandson’s mistake.
I do agree that the first nine episodes were fillers; Carver getting accustomed to running the show (or I hope so!). It did set up some characters he wants to use, assure Castiel and angel fans that that aspect of SPN will be preserved, and kept dramatic tension almost completely by pitting Dean against Sam. Hopefully he’ll now get on with a show.
Comment by CaseyT — February 2, 2013 @ 2:33 pm
Finally. What a relief this episode was. The first nine or so episodes left a bad taste in my mouth. This one left me feeling hopeful for the rest of the season as it set up a new arc for the brothers. I also appreciated that it was about the Winchesters, not their friends. I’ve watched it three times already compared to barely one time through for the rest of the season.
It wasn’t perfect. There were a couple of things that could have been addressed or explained better but the emotional payoffs were so much better that I won’t quibble.
Were those Hardy Boy books in wee John’s bedroom?
Comment by jace — February 2, 2013 @ 3:08 pm
61- Sheri, it was Buddy TV. And yes, this episode was very good and the brother moments were balanced so I was hopeful, but reading this new interview disappointed me. Maybe things are not what they seem. I’ll just have to wait and see, I guess.
Comment by roxi — February 2, 2013 @ 5:29 pm
roxi-i read that interview-yea it does sound like sam yet again gets his arc. he will do the three tasks. and dean once again doesn’t have his arc other than the benny thing and being cas’ pet. the benny thing excites me. cas-not so much. but i know its coming so i have to grin and bare it for at least this season. hopefully tptb see the reaction to this episode-how we like the balance between the brothers and the story about both brothers and the winchesters front and center.you know i would even take the s1-s3 formula where we had one episode dean centered and then the next episode sam centered then the next one neither took center stage. but even that simple formula went out the window. its maddening.
Comment by animal — February 2, 2013 @ 9:15 pm
I have some questions regarding Dean and Henrys plan to get rid of Abbadon. Ok Crowleys interrogator viggo said demons possess every cell of person. Abbadon displayed this strange ability to possess more than one vessel at the same time with only a small amount of her black smoke/spirit. The bullet trap was only in her head. Dean cut off her Head. Now what if someone disturbs one of these concrete tombs they were talking about for all of Abbadons body parts. theoretically she could possess someone with any part found but the head then use that vessel to resurrect the rest.
Comment by AW — February 2, 2013 @ 10:52 pm
@ roxi: I didn’t get a bad vibe from Singer’s interview. Actually, what little he said about the brothers was pretty inline with my view of how they have always been — Sam the studious one and Dean the action one. Sam always digs into the research and Dean always says, “How do we kill it.” Dean more internal and Sam more open emotionally. Dean always holds his cards closer to his chest than Sam does. Dean always has done that.
The brains and the brawn comment doesn’t bother me at all. I don’t know which will get to do the ‘tests’ yet, but I’m sure they will both have a role in it. It should be Dean, if nothing else to face the Hellhound that he is terrified of. It just better not be some random guy off the street — like Kevin. That will really tick me off.
Comment by Sheri — February 3, 2013 @ 3:23 am
I am going to make a lot of people mad, but I was glad they didn’t call on Cas. I think Misha has done a wonderful job with the character, but frankly I am tired of Cas. IMO having a character that powerful that you can just call on at will makes the story boring and predictable. I for one, like that Cas has been moved to the background, and I never ever want to see Meg AGAIN!!! Sorry, just my opinion.
Comment by mj — February 3, 2013 @ 9:16 am
hey mj-i am right there with ya. in fact everyone here know i HATE cas. meg i could take either way. don’t care that she is not on the show. don’t really care if she is on the show. but cas-i would love to see off the show. don’t think that is going to happen-but i wish it would.
and don’t think you are outnumbered. cas isn’t as popular as he used to be. at cons misha’s picture signings ect… aren’t sold out anymore. the only ones that are is his pictures with the j’s. he is riding on thier shirtails. but whatever. i do believe cas/misha will be on spn till the end. unfortunately for me.
Comment by animal — February 3, 2013 @ 12:35 pm
I know I really enjoyed the brothers working a case alone for a BIG change.
But I’m not with you on a return of Meg. That character has gotten very stale to me.
Comment by Sheri — February 3, 2013 @ 1:08 pm
If Amelia comes back - there must be puppies. Preferably puppies that look like Sam before he let his hair grow out. I dare any of you to hate her if she’s the reason Sam gets to play with a basket full of puppies (because, of course it turns out the dog he saved was a girl and those are her puppies.) Also, it should turn out that’s she’s pregnant with Sam’s kid and Don knows and will raise him as his own. This will ensure the Winchester line continues and motivate him to close the gates of hell not out of revenge, but out of love, since it’s the only gift he can give a child he’ll never get to know. He’ll give his kid the world - a safer world, because what father wouldn’t, if they could.
Also, my guess is that serious Misha fans probably are more likely to spend money on his charitable work and try to meet him that way, rather than in the conventions. I know if I got a chance to talk to him I’d want to talk to him about poetry and ask if his wife has done an analysis of the gender dynamics in SPN. You can’t have a discussion like that in a convention setting, and he couldn’t talk about stuff his wife said publicly - so there’d be no point in meeting him there. Plus I don’t care about getting a picture of him. What’s the point of that, exactly? I guess it’s kind of magical thinking, like relics of saints (I.e. bits of dead people supposedly imbued with divine power) or cannibalistic societies who thought that by eating specific parts of other people you could gain their traits. Oh we’ll. I might be a fan, but I guess I’m not a member if the cult of celebrity.
Comment by t1gerlilly — February 3, 2013 @ 2:27 pm
I didn’t have time to read the nearly 100 comments, but I read a good chunk of them. I think that in the season 4 episode, John probably had a step-dad. John mentions in that episode that he’s a mechanic from a family of mechanics. I’m guessing his stepfather may have been a mechanic or maybe there were mechanics on his mothers side of the family. I never read any of the novels and I doubt they are considered cannon anyways, so I’m not sure what the show contradicted that was in the books with this episode. I thought it was a great episode though. I loved all the new mythology added and all the possible story lines they can hash out now. I’m sure this must tie in somehow to the Angel tablets and such.
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