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“Everybody Hates Hitler” Discussion

Are you ready for some Nazis! Post your thoughts on tonight’s episode or click HERE for my full recap.

That was super fun! Who doesn’t love an episode all about killing Nazi bastards?

First, the Men of Letters HQ is pretty cool. Any place where the shower has great water pressure, the scimitars are sharp and there are a million books for Sam to geek out over is a great place to set up shop. Hopefully this can serve as a home base for more than half a season, because the set design is gorgeous.

Also worth noting that it’s located in Lebanon, Kansas, which is officially the exact geographic center of the contiguous United States. I’m sure that’s why they picked it, but I’m curious to see if it will be an important fact.

All the Nazi stuff was cool too. For instance, did you know the Thule Society is totally a real thing? That makes it a little bit more interesting, especially for history buffs.

And the pure joy of Sam and Dean getting to shoot those Nazi bastards in the heads? This is the kind of Indiana Jones/Inglourious Basterds style Nazi-hunting that I love.

Then there’s the Golem, which ruled. Not only was it huge and powerful, but also funny. Wouldn’t you watch a show about Aaron and his Golem hunting down Nazis? Because I would. Especially if you add a shiksa girlfriend.

Overall, a standard, wonderful, weird, wildly entertaining Ben Edlund episode.

Oh yeah, and let’s not forget the scene where Aaron claimed he was cruising Dean in a bar. Because that was priceless.

News posted on February 6, 2013 Comments (190)

190 Comments »

  1. Can’t wait to see these nazis, and what’s the deal with the rabbi and golem?
    Bout to find out about these crazy nazis!!!

    Comment by Ory — February 6, 2013 @ 5:04 pm

  2. Is it just me or is the Golem storyline much more interesting than the God tablet?

    Comment by B — February 6, 2013 @ 7:06 pm

  3. Nice episode and love seeing Sam and Dean working together rather than always bitching and fighting with eachother.

    Comment by ozzie — February 6, 2013 @ 7:40 pm

  4. Maybe I’ll like this episode better when I re-watch it. It wasn’t awful, but I think more than anything it showed Edlund has lost interest in the Winchesters. I didn’t find that it even came close to what I expect of Edlund.

    For me, the brothers were action figures to the little Jewish guy. And this is the second time that a scared weakling stepped up to be a hero — Charlie being the first one. Oh, and then there was the ‘wife’ in Heartbreak. She stepped up and spilled the beans on her husband and the MotW.

    Hated the music and all issues presented in the first nine episodes are forgiven and forgotten. I guess the point of the episode was to show Sam becoming invested in hunting again by becoming a MoL and to (once again) place mark Bobby 2.0’s position in the series so Garth can show back up once Qualls is through filming his other project.

    Dean in a red plaid shirt was the best part of the episode. Who knew red plaid could look so good.

    Comment by Sheri — February 6, 2013 @ 7:53 pm

  5. I, personally, loved Dean in the robe and slippers!

    I liked this episode very much. It made me almost forget about the episodes before it and that was a good thing.

    I thought the story of the Golem was very well done and the actor portraying him was very, very good. I didn’ mind the “little Jewish guy” at all and I was glad when he finally stood up and did the right thing at the end. If he had kept at least one foot in the world he came from he would have understood how to control the Golem. Instead he belittled it and had to have a german nazi tell him what to do. But he came through when he had to and he took control of his heritage at the end.
    I liked how Sam knew what to look for in the library; that is the Sam Winchester I have missed.
    I liked the way Dean and Sam worked together throughout the episode.
    I am hoping the information they are able to gather from the material they have will help them to gain an upper hand on their show and need less and less of Kevin and Cas to defeat Crowley and figure out whatever the season’s plot is.

    For me this was the most enjoyable episode of the season- actually the only enjoyable episode of the season. Hope next week’s return of Kevin and the tablet crap doesn’t ruin my enjoyment.

    Comment by SL — February 6, 2013 @ 8:12 pm

  6. Second episode in a row I’ve actually been drawn in to a plot. I enjoyed the Adam Bass character; thought the character was great and the smoking the paper from the Golem guide was hilarious. The plot was a little predictable and someone put a leash on Edlund. Never seen such a linear, straight forward narrative from him, but it sure did have lots of action which gave it a rapid pace. The Men of Letters hideout was impressive although I’m not sure who is going to keep it so clean and well organized. Can’t see Dean doing that or even Sam. And, it is a little up-scale for the boys; I rather favored Bobby’s cluttered and messy digs for the Winchesters. Nevertheless, the guys were actually intelligent and effective again; the storyline was not secondary to which Winchester was throwing the biggest fit about his delicate feelings being hurt, and the secondary character on display was not 14 or displayed as more resourceful or intelligent than the Winchesters. This was really more about Sam than Dean. Sam is thoroughly in to the Men of Letters legacy which gives him the motivation to commit again to fighting evil. It is almost as if Carver is resurrecting the original Winchesters and assigning them a family connection and legacy: tough, street-smart Dean with a intuitive intelligence of right and wrong and devoted to hunting, the product of his mother; tough, well educated and thoughtful Sam, a man of letters like grandpa Winchester. I just don’t see how they can go back to being Castiel’s pets or pathetic cry-babies competing to see which we should feel more sorry for. Overall, enjoyed this episode.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 6, 2013 @ 8:16 pm

  7. I thought this episode was very good. There must be something important in the Men of Letters HQ or why else would the demon want it so bad in last week’s episode “As Time Goes By”.

    Also Dean in a robe and slippers – priceless.

    Comment by valerie — February 6, 2013 @ 8:27 pm

  8. @ CaseyT: I liked the bunker upon first view, but by the end of the episode, I felt the whole tone of the show has shifted. Bobby’s place and the skuddy motels were a part and parcel of setting the tone for the show, as was the music. This new bunker, fine scotch, manly robes isn’t something that I liked (not to mention the crap music they are beginning to use more and more).

    I don’t care if the brothers work together as if nothing went on before or not. Sam is in desperate need of a redemption arc for his attitude and the crap he pulled this season, and until he gets that redemption arc, I really don’t care if he works with Dean or not. The writers may chose to forget it, and they can or have, but as a viewer, I haven’t. All I think is that Sam is happy now, because he found something that HE was interested in — books, library, research, a legacy, and becoming a Man of Letters. He’s certainly wasn’t happy because Dean was alive and came back from Purgatory. Hunting wasn’t worthy enough then and he couldn’t wait to give it up.

    My point is that Sam’s reset isn’t working for me.

    Comment by Sheri — February 6, 2013 @ 8:29 pm

  9. I have been told by others here that the writers write what they want and I shouldn’t expect explanations for some of the crap they put out there. So I will probably never get an actual answer for why Sam was such an ass in the first part of the season. And that irks at me with each passing episode. I will always wonder why he did not look for his brother for even a second and why he treated his brother like an ass when he found he was alive.
    I know- that for me- Sam Winchester would never have done those things.
    But that is how he was written this eason. So, yes, while I did enjoy the boys working well together tonight I have not forgotten my actual disgust with the way Sam was written in most of the prior episodes.
    I will always blame the showrunner for that total character assassination of Sam and the lack of any kind of story for Dean.
    But I will still enjoy my two favorite SN hunters being written and portrayed as smart and united brothers when I get the chance to see them that way.
    There has been no redemption here and probably none will be offered.
    Just have to chalk it up to an idiot taking over the show and knowing nothing about the characters at all. For there is no other logical explanation for the crap that was shoved in our faces through most of the season so far.
    Just have to hope each episode gets better as it goes along. And, for me, this was a good one.

    Comment by SL — February 6, 2013 @ 8:45 pm

  10. I much prefer this Men of Letters storyline to the Tablet/closing hell Storyline… It’s weird, the past two episodes have seemed like a completely different, better season. Next week back to the tablet storyline that I have no interest in…

    Comment by CS — February 6, 2013 @ 8:55 pm

  11. I found this script from Edlund very linear, with none of the depth touching on mytharc and the brothers relationship that is usually in his writing.

    I don’t get this constant harping on family in every episode, and I don’t get why we need a reminder every episode that Garth is Bobby 2.0 and will be back.

    It wasn’t that the episode was terrible; it’s just that it was just a pointless ordinary episode, except to say that Sam is now committed to being a MoL.

    I’m also finding I don’t really like the abrupt one mytharc episode and then several stand-alones that don’t relate to anything. Edlund at least tried to connect the two with a couple of lines; one about no word from Cas and one about Kevin not having found anything. That’s linear writing on a level far beneath what Edlund is capable of.

    Comment by Sheri — February 6, 2013 @ 9:06 pm

  12. This episode mentioned my hometown! My tiny little New Jersey suburb that people may only have heard of because of its mall. I am so giddy! And curious how Ben Edlund knows about it…

    Loved the ep. Loved the boys being back together!

    Comment by Salchan — February 6, 2013 @ 10:18 pm

  13. @ SL – You said it all right here:

    “I know- that for me- Sam Winchester would never have done those things.
    But that is how he was written this eason. So, yes, while I did enjoy the boys working well together tonight I have not forgotten my actual disgust with the way Sam was written in most of the prior episodes.
    I will always blame the showrunner for that total character assassination of Sam and the lack of any kind of story for Dean.
    But I will still enjoy my two favorite SN hunters being written and portrayed as smart and united brothers when I get the chance to see them that way.
    There has been no redemption here and probably none will be offered.
    Just have to chalk it up to an idiot taking over the show and knowing nothing about the characters at all. For there is no other logical explanation for the crap that was shoved in our faces through most of the season so far.”

    This is how I feel too!

    At the end of the day, those of us who were looking for a better explanation for Sam’s attitude at the beginning of the season or some real exploration of his time and state of mind immediately after Dean disappeared should prepare ourselves for the high likelihood that NO EXPLANATION is coming.

    For some odd reason, Carver took Sam down a very OOC path at the beginning of the season w/minimal explanation or exploration so Sam was stuck looking like a jerk.

    I love Sam and KNOW he would never abandon Dean w/o an investigation. Sam was trashed and thrown under a bus in the beginning of S8. There’s not much more to it than that. Clearly, Carver doesn’t recognize this, which is why Sam’s story – if you can even call it that – was told so poorly.

    As someone who has been upset about the destruction of Sam since I read the spoilers for him last summer/fall, I am just happy to finally get some episodes – the last two for me – that feel like the Supernatural I knew, that have the brothers in a good place w/each other, that show the brothers working together, that are engaging, interesting episodes. Unlike other MOTW episodes this year and most of last year, I felt intune w/this episode. I cared about what happened to the Golem and Aaron. I can’t say I cared in other MOTW episodes.

    ————————

    @ CS – I couldn’t agree more w/you about the last two episodes feeling like a different season . . . a much better, more interesting season. Like you, I’m much more interested in the MOL story than the tablet story.

    And even though I greatly enjoyed Benny, I do wonder what larger purpose he served? Sam and Amelia was definitely a pointless waste of time. Sadly, I have to include Benny in that as well. For me, it feels like the season just got started. I’m not sure what the 1st half was about. I’m cautiously optimistic at this point. You never know, but I hope the rest of the season is more like the last two episodes than the first 11.

    ————————

    @Sheri – I like the bunker set as well, but I’m not sure how I feel about the boys being there all the time. I hope we don’t lose our motels/abandoned houses.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 7, 2013 @ 12:56 am

  14. Really like this twist. Hope they don´t ruin the story. Hope Cas and Crowley are connected to this in someway, so that they dont ignore this story and go back to the boring Kevin story.

    Comment by Robin — February 7, 2013 @ 1:31 am

  15. It’s all entwined, guys. The Key and the Tablets. That Key is a master code cipher – it’ll translate any tablet or scroll or book they find.

    Comment by Kim — February 7, 2013 @ 1:51 am

  16. Sheri–agree that the MOL bunker is nice but Bobby’s place seemed to me a more comfortable fit for the working class Winchesters. However, the series has lost almost all of its working class feel; dirty finger nails, grease stains, and replacing a bad carburetor are simply not part of CW or SPN anymore. Sam looks more like a posed stud on a cheap romance novel cover than a hunter or FBI agent. Even Dean seems to have laundry done every day by someone. They must have a mountain of quarters for the Laundromat. The settings and appearance of the stars are definitely going upscale. It makes it less grounded in reality and more CW, but I guess that was unavoidable. Its CW TV, I guess.
    Agree fully with those who want an answer to why Sam did not look for Dean. Huge plot hole. The last similar one was Castiel letting Sam out of the panic-room dungeon knowing Sam would break the final seal. Not only did Castiel not ever acknowledge his responsibility, he even accused Sam of “making the wrong decision” knowing full well that Sam didn’t know that Lilith was the final seal. And, he suddenly became BFF of the boys while everyone accused Sam of starting the apocalypse. Collins had just been signed as a costar so the writers simply edited out Castiel’s dastardly deed of setting up Sam. At least, there was an actor signing that created a need to rewrite Castiel as a more sympathetic character to offer some explanation for that plot hole; I see no reason to fail to explain Sam’s action.
    I also agree with the comment that it seems like the season has just started. I wish the last two episodes had been episodes 1 and 2. I’m willing to ignore the big Sam plot hole, live with squeaky clean heroes living in Yale’s special collections room, and even put up with a goofy Garth replacing Bobby and more angel on angel oh-so-repetitive CW stock fantasy crap if the Winchesters are restored as honorable but flawed humans who are intelligent and resourceful humans fighting evil. I will actually be wanting to know how they are doing emotionally and what they are feeling if they are fighting evil rather than feeling sorry for themselves and wallowing in their latest emotional trauma or throwing petty hissy-fits at each other like 9 year olds. Carver has created the opportunity to actually recruit action-adventure fans back to SPN after Sera’s soap. Hope he doesn’t blow it.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 7, 2013 @ 6:32 am

  17. If anyone wants to see Jim Beaver acting his best (as always) he is on “Justified” as a good lawman. I love that show and am grateful they have given a good actor a good role.

    Comment by SL — February 7, 2013 @ 7:15 am

  18. @ CaseyT: It’s pretty obvious, I think, that Sam’s story this season is the reluctant hero.

    First there was Sam coming back into hunting because there was so much to do.

    There was Kate, in Bitten, who stepped in and made the kills, promising to never give in to her monster true nature.

    There was Eleanor in Heartache that stepped in and gave the brothers the lowdown on her husband and the monster.

    There was Fred in Hunteri Heroici who got himself together after the big mind talk and stepped in to kill the doctor.

    There was Charlie in LARP, who was clearly going to run, but felt this great responsibility for her idolizers, and she stepped in and rescued the fairy and knowing in realizing she had a responsibility now, because she knows about the supernatural.

    And now we have Aaron, another truly reluctant hero who accepted his responsibility over the Golem and fighting the Nazis. And, we also have Sam all geek-ho over the legacy and the library.

    I wonder what Dean’s story is. So far, he’s been the action hero from Purgatory, come back fully committed to the fight. And in this episode, he clearly distanced himself from being one of the MoLs.

    I re-watched the episode this morning and, as usual, found it better than I did on my first viewing. But I still didn’t find the Winchesters’ roles any more interesting. Sam was the exposition fairy and Dean was written as a goofus (to add the humor, I’m sure). In fact, the whole thing could have been done w/o Dean’s character and nothing would have been detracted from the episode.

    But I do agree with you, Casey, in that I would rather see the boys as the hot action figures, rather than hand-wringing whiney emo hunters.

    Comment by Sheri — February 7, 2013 @ 7:33 am

  19. “In fact, the whole thing could have been done w/o Dean’s character and nothing would have been detracted from the episode.”

    I have to agree with this, and it’s one of the reasons I only partially liked this episode.

    Dean wasn’t really needed in this episode, he didn’t really do much, except be the comedic sidekick.

    Comment by Bree — February 7, 2013 @ 8:17 am

  20. first of all i really liked this episode. the plot was interesting and i liked the bat cave but i think it looks a little uncomfortable for living especially for someone like sam and dean. but i really like the home base thing. after destroying bobby’s house they needed something like this, but…
    and i just CAN’T forget the first nine episodes. how the hell am i supposed to just forget that Sam didn’t look for dean? after the last episode, we know, like always, dean would do anything for Sam. but would Sam do anything for his brother too? i mean if at the end of this season dean disappears again, is there any guaranty that Sam would look for him or is he just gonna run again? if dean is in a dire Situation, will Sam help him? in the earlier seasons the answer was a big YES! but now i just don’t know. and that’s why i just can’t enjoy this season no matter how really good the episodes are. dean’s acting like Sam’s slave. he just do everything to please little Sammy. their relationship isn’t equal right now. Sam’s reactions to dean are forced, like he’s tolerating him. dean is seriously enjoying Sam’s company, but i can’t say the same about sam.
    and other than that, AGAIN we’re back to dean not having any real story. clearly this man of letters plot was written specially for sam, to give him a new connection to hunting life because clearly dean wasn’t a good enough reason, like he never was. and like always, dean is just a worthless stupid hunter that just HAPPENS to be sam’s brother.

    Comment by bahar — February 7, 2013 @ 8:43 am

  21. @B, CS and Lisa1: I agree with all of you.
    The last three episodes reminded me of why I fell in love with the show many years ago in the first place.
    I’m so sick of Castiel and Kevin already. I’m greatful I got a little break from them.

    Comment by cat — February 7, 2013 @ 11:25 am

  22. Great episode. Keep it up SPN writers, cast, and crew.

    Also, next week the Word of God arc continues. And Crowley dies and Naomi takes over as the Big Bad. Yes, please? Thank you.

    Comment by Andrew — February 7, 2013 @ 11:38 am

  23. @18
    “In fact, the whole thing could have been done w/o Dean’s character and nothing would have been detracted from the episode.”
    that’s nothing new. you can cut dean off the show from the pilot and nothing would change until the end of SEASON2! when he sells his soul for sam. and to think about it, if dean was never there john wouldn’t have died and he could make a deal for sam at the end of season2. after that you could have john for breaking the first seal and adam OR john himself for Michael’s vessel. and you can delete dean from the last three seasons without even needing anyone to replace him to move the story along. my point is without sam’s character there wouldn’t be any show but whitout dean you wouldn’t even need to make a difference in the story line. even cass is more important than dean. without him season six and seven wouldn’t happen at all.
    you would think after 8 years it’s going to be dean’s turn to have a good important story but nooooo you’re wrong.

    Comment by bahar — February 7, 2013 @ 11:39 am

  24. Great episode, not that I expected anything less from ben. though I will say I was expecting something different in the men of leather “batcave”–some kickass weapons. but it seems like a large place I trust that in time the winchester will find something worthy.

    @22 crowley dies? I hope not. I like him, he is my second fav charater on the show. And I don’t like naomi at all. i think she is a needed evil in heaven inorder to keep heaven in power but still i don’t like her. if any bad guy should die it ought to be her. I’m hopeful that the person behind the mirror in her office is zach. not likely but that’s what hopes are for. he was a menace but atleast i could always laugh at his wicked ways.

    Comment by WTF — February 7, 2013 @ 12:14 pm

  25. @20-couldn’t agree with you more about sam and does he have dean’s back. if dean went missing again would sam look for him??? i still don’t think so-thats why i thought it very interesting last week when dean said he would always have to help sam. because he was family. that is very dean-and we know if sam disappeared we know dean would look for him. i don’t have that faith in sam at all. good point bahar.

    as for this episode -i liked it. i have to watch it again because the accents that were used -i couldn’t “hear” all the little details of the bad guy or the golem when they were speaking. the story was fluid-the mention of cas and kevin brought the “main” arc in which was nice. still waiting for a story arc for dean. i see sam being very important and gee he is a hunter AND a MOL. isn’t he special??? sorry-its grating on me now. dean gets to be a hunter and the blunt of jokes. again with the gay jokes and the idiot jokes. yea!!! so original -not-. next weeks looks interesting.

    Comment by animal — February 7, 2013 @ 2:29 pm

  26. well edlund did a wonderful job making all the “dean is gay/bisexual” and destiel shippers happy as h*ll this week. youtube is buzzing with just when they will have dean come out of the closet. you know-figurativly speaking i was in the house holding the door before this episode- i am now outside holding the door waiting to close it on this show. i am almost there. next week will be the one -either i come back in or close the door.

    on a better note-this episode was one of the most viewed spn episodes in awhile. ratings were very good. curious to see what next weeks will be. and the cas episodes. i might not be watching but i will be watching the ratings.

    Comment by animal — February 7, 2013 @ 3:46 pm

  27. I liked this episode, but I had one problem with it. Wouldn’t the ledger have been written in German? If so, how was Sam able to read it? Did I miss something?

    Comment by mj — February 7, 2013 @ 4:15 pm

  28. I liked this episode. The Golem was awesome. “The boy smoked the papers” hilarious. Sam and Dean chilling in the MoL hole was great. What a turn around this season has made. Thank chuck. So many possibilities for this show.

    Comment by AW — February 7, 2013 @ 5:04 pm

  29. 26- Animal, I didn’t get that about Dean at all. I think it was just supposed to be a funny moment. I still don’t believe Dean is either gay or bisexual, the writers just like to screw with a certain sector of the fandom.
    Otherwise, it was a good episode, but I’ll still be disappointed if Dean doesn’t get to do the tests next week.
    It was good to see Sam really getting into the whole Man of Letters thing, but since this episode was more for him, I hope next one focuses on Dean.

    Comment by roxi — February 7, 2013 @ 5:56 pm

  30. animal–The 1/3 is I agree very good. Same rating and share as Arrow. And SPN got 2.29 mil viewers. Nothing like a couple of episodes about Dean and Sam Winchester and a Winchester story like Men of Letters to give the ratings a lift.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 7, 2013 @ 6:09 pm

  31. roxi-i have read at least 7 reviews of last nights episodes- all of them mention how wonderful it is that the supernatural writers are examining sexuality -albeit softly- this year. one poster on one of those sights stated that dean being bi or gay legitimizes the gay community. edlund played into that-always has. i don’t watch spn for political correctness crap. the reason i watched was for j2-but i have lost that enjoyment. jareds been a complete arse on his twitter and jensen totally lied about “being protective of his character”. he has let these writers tear dean down to a sexual statement and thats it. i guarantee you he and cas will have a kiss before the series is done. just to please that group of fans. thats fine-if i wanted that kind of thing i would watch glee. i have been patient long enough. they insult my religion, my political views, my morality issues. (i am talking about sam/amelia not the gay thing-like i said with the larp episode-i don’t care if there are lesbians or gays on the show-but to actually “turn” a character into one -or give an impression that he could be just to feed some rabid fans. i can’t do it.there is nothing for me on spn anymore really. i will see what/who gets the trial next week if dean is front and center and i see him getting an arc-maybe i’ll give it another week and go week to week-maybe pop in for the benny episode and garth episodes.

    hey i know i am in the minority here. but
    t

    Comment by animal — February 7, 2013 @ 6:11 pm

  32. true casey-it kinda shows that alot of fans like the winchester brothers stories the best. and despite my rant-i actually liked this episode. if they would have kept out the sexuality thing i would have loved it. from what i read alot of fans want the MOL story to take off and for the writers to forget the tablet thing. i think carver had to undo what was done in s7 and the brothers fighting was a way to do that in his eyes anyway. the larping episode was the turning episode from sera’s era on spn to carvers era on spn. the MOL arc will be to carver as the apocolpyse arc was to kripke.

    Comment by animal — February 7, 2013 @ 6:18 pm

  33. 31- Animal, where are these reviews? Because I just read 7 myself and nowhere did they say anything like that, just that it was a funny scene. Even After Elton didn’t jump on it as much as you would think they would.
    I really still don’t believe we’re supposed to read anything into it, just that Dean’s ego is flattered no matter who he thinks is doing the hitting. Although it’s true I could be wrong in the long run, but right now, I’m not taking it to mean anything.

    Comment by roxi — February 7, 2013 @ 6:44 pm

  34. What has Jared been an ass on Twitter about? I never heard this before. I only ever heard nice things about Jared’s tweets.

    Comment by roxi — February 7, 2013 @ 6:46 pm

  35. roxi-blogcritics review was the one that i “quoted” about the spn using sexuality. winchester family has the same “feel” type review as well.

    as for jared-you can go read his twitter yourself (i am not “friended” i just read what there) someone there called him snarky. i call it being a smart arse. he said something derogatory about the 49rs head coach because he didn’t hug his brother after the raven win during the superbowl. you can call it snarky-you can call it opinion-which it is and he is entitled to it-i call it being a smart arse. he also said something snarky or smart arse about an another actor as well. not big things just things that show me he is not the nicest guy when he is not infront of a con group.

    whatever.

    Comment by animal — February 7, 2013 @ 8:08 pm

  36. I see some things in the preview for next week that look good. Dean is wearing what looks like special glasses, could they be for seeing the hellhounds? If so, maybe he IS going to do the tests( fingers crossed).
    As for Sam, he seems to be presiding over what looks like a strategy meeting. This next episode looks like it might point to the future of these boys, Sam being the planner, the strategist,and Dean in the trenches, the soldier. I would say each guy’s personality and skill set would fit this scenario perfectly.
    I have to say it really is good to see Sam back into the job, getting along with hos brother again. This is the Sam I love! Even though it still pisses me off that the writers still haven’t explained Sam’s earlier crappy treatment of Dean and had him own up to it, well, I don’t think the writers believe we need that so I’m not counting on getting it. I’m just glad things seem to be getting better.

    Comment by roxi — February 8, 2013 @ 5:15 am

  37. I will be very upset if Sam is taken out of all the action of the show and just left researching. If that happens, he may as well, IMO, not be on the show.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 8, 2013 @ 6:18 am

  38. Animal, why are you bringing up that non-existent drama again? Jared said nothing NO ONE ELSE wasn’t already thinking when it comes to the kid from 2 1/2 Men.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 8, 2013 @ 6:20 am

  39. Lisa, being the strategist, the coordinator, IS

    Comment by roxi — February 8, 2013 @ 6:26 am

  40. Being the strategist and coordinator IS a very important part of the action. D-DAY was planned and coordinated, if I’m correct, by General Dwight Eisenhower, and carried out by the troops on the ground, air, and in the trenches. But they couldn’t have done it without him blueprinting it.
    As Sam is the one with the head for research, and has the book smarts, he seems perfect for this role.
    And Dean with his storm the gates and take no prisoners mentality is perfect for carrying the plans out in the trenches.

    Comment by roxi — February 8, 2013 @ 6:33 am

  41. @ roxi #36: I am still mystified about what the writers are doing to Sam, and that lead to some of my disappointment with Edlund’s episode. While the episode wasn’t bad at all, the disconnect with the first ten episodes of the season is something I’m having a lot of trouble with.

    Starting with the LARP episode, the show is telling me that Sam has found his niche in the hunting world and now that he has discovered the Yale-like library, he can mix his sense of duty (what we saw in 8.01) with his real interests (research and figuring out the puzzles of the hunt).

    That’s all well and nice, but what about Amelia’s dad telling him he was with Amelia to avoid having to grieve for Dean. Has he grieved? Was there any need for him to grieve? The only time I saw him grieve is for Amelia when Dean showed back up and reminded him he had a responsibility to Kevin.

    What about following up on Hunteri Heroici and having Sam realize his life with Amelia was based on lies? Was it a lie or was it a big personal sacrifice he had to make to continue hunting?

    What about following up on why Sam chose Amelia over Dean, even telling Dean to go hunt by himself and figure out how he could be happy with the hunter’s life that didn’t include Sam, because Sam had found what he wanted in Amelia? (In other words, Sam wasn’t going to let Dean define what family was to him.)

    What about explaining why Sam was such an ass about Benny, choosing Martin and Sam’s own wants (killing Benny) over Dean?

    What about Sam doing some soul searching like Dean had to do before he decided to tell Sam to go on back to Amelia and be happy and he would take care of the Cas business?

    Sam in in serious need of a redemption arc, and just giving him shiny new digs with a wealth of research material as a reason to be with Dean doesn’t do it for me even a little bit.

    So, is the message Sam loves his books more than Dean, but Dean can stick around in the bat cave if he wants to? And whatever happened to Amelia whatshername, the love of Sam’s life that he chose over Dean and simply could not live without?

    As for Dean, all I can say is WTF! We’ve seen nothing but an efficient, ruthless, brutal hunter giving as good as he got all season, and then …boom. Dean accepts all the fault for Sam’s shi**y behavior, several reluctant hero support characters step up to save the day, and in this last episode, Dean is happy and content because Sam is happy and content. And because Sam is now happy, our ruthless badass hunter can take time off to enjoy his ‘legacy’…play in the shower, wear old men’s bathrobes and slippers, and toast Sam finding his reason to hunt with some fine scotch. Hell, as far as I’m concerned, Edlund should have written Dean on his hands and knees and letting Sam use him as a foot rest while he does his research. Maybe he can give Sam a back rub when Sam’s back cramps up from leaning over the library table or bring him a chef’s salad upon demand.

    I am totally amazed at all the glowing and slobbering over this episode, the new direction the show is taking, and Edlund’s script all because “the brothers are working together again,” when all of the crap that was brought up for over a third of the season is just…over …dismissed…forgotten…left unresolved…whatever.

    I’m not saying that the episode wasn’t cute and enjoyable, but the way they’ve made the shift and introduced a bunch of new crap without resolving anything is just not good storytelling and leaves me confused.

    Comment by Sheri — February 8, 2013 @ 7:12 am

  42. @Sheri – I can’t speak for anyone, but b/c that first half was “crap” as you described it, I am perfectly happy w/moving on from it. Maybe that’s what a lot of other viewers feel too.

    Would I love to know why Sam thought Dean was dead? Sure. Would I love to know why Sam was so upset by Benny? Yep. Am I fine with Show just moving onto bigger and much better plots? ABSOLUTELY!

    For me, much of the writing for Sam and the conflict btw Sam and Dean felt forced and contrived. It didn’t feel real or genuine so I’m actually okay w/skipping right past it.

    I never believed Sam wouldn’t look for Dean. I never believed Sam thought Dean was dead. I never believed Sam would have a problem w/Benny. I never believed in Sam’s love for Amelia. I never bought into their lame relationship.

    Everything Carver did w/Sam in the first half felt fake and contrived for the sake of unnecessary conflict btw Sam and Dean. It just didn’t feel real, so I’m fine w/them moving on w/the real story. Plus, I honestly don’t think Carver feels as we do. I don’t think he thinks Sam did anything wrong by not looking for Dean. I don’t think he thinks Sam had a bad attitude in the beginning of the season. He just doesn’t see it the way most of us do so waiting for grand explanations from Sam is likely a waste of time.

    Since the brotherhood and the bond is the primary reason I love this show. I’m just happy to see the brothers in a good place w/each other. I’m happy for the return of the S1/S2 feel of the show. These past two episodes felt real to me. This is the Supernatural I started watching, not episodes 1-11. I don’t know what that was.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 8, 2013 @ 8:00 am

  43. Lisa1-#42–Could not agree more.

    Sheri–Both guys will do things and not do things in the future I’ll want to know how they feel about, and I’m sure they’ll need some redemption eventually for bad decisions; they are human. But, like Lisa1, I’m ready to move on. Dean had to spend time in purgatory to free himself from being Sera’s self-obsessed, alcoholic, guilt-ridden, confused , angst-king, and emo character. He’s returned to SPN as a hunter. This Men of Letters has pulled Sam out of that bad soap that interrupted SPN in the first half frequently and put him back in SPN. Dean’s long nightmare and Sam’s shorter one are over. Let’s get on with Supernatural.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 8, 2013 @ 9:56 am

  44. @ Lisa1 and CaseyT: Oh, I’m all for moving on, too. But the problem with that is for years now, Sam has done really nasty and cruel things to Dean and, by the show not showing any acceptance of accountability on Sam’s part, I’ve come to despise him.

    Long memories and all that, I guess, but I would really like to like Sam again and giving him a shiny new library to be interested in without showing some of what I brought up, IMO, will not serve Sam’s character well at all. I won’t ever trust him to have Dean’s back or that he even loves Dean. What I will believe is that Sam loves Sam and will always do what Sam wants to do and to hell with Dean and Dean’s feelings.

    I don’t think it will serve Dean’s character well either, as we’ve seen in the last couple of episodes. Dean will never get beyond being Sam’s handmaiden until he acknowledges Sam’s faults….and, I feel, until he deals with his own Hell memories, which I don’t think has ever been done (Example, he still thinks all he is is a serial killer who doesn’t deserve anything better than killing monsters).

    The other problem I have with Sam just moving on to play in his new playhouse is that it leaves me with the impression that the writers think we viewers are stupid…and that’s exactly what I felt they were doing when they spent two episodes telling us that Dean was wrong in sending the text and nothing about Sam being responsible for Martin’s death, disrupting Benny’s family life, choosing crazy Martin and his own desire to kill Benny over Dean, and violating the single most important hunter code by dumping Martin during a hunt. These are really despicable acts, and they are cruel and heartless.

    So, yeah, I’m on-board with moving on; and even running from that awful Samelia story, but it does nothing to make me not loathe Sam’s character and be disappointed in Dean regressing from the growth I felt he made from his Purgatory experience. I would much rather be able to enjoy the whole show and the storylines and not just continue watching to see JA perform, but I can’t do that when I don’t trust the writers and I don’t trust that Sam cares about his brother one way or the other. Everything the show has shown me is that he does not, and there was not one scene in this episode that changed that impression. Sam was happy because he found a shiny new playhouse and Dean was happy because Sam was happy. That’s it.

    Comment by Sheri — February 8, 2013 @ 12:10 pm

  45. There was a time when no matter what the story there had to be an element of justice in the conclusion. The bad guy had to loose in one form or another and the good guy had to win. Even if he died his cause was quantified, his family safe, the truth known, whatever the case may be. It was an unwritten law in Hollywood. It was even more prevalent in tv land. I have watched that law erode to the point where the devil wins and the one you’ve been rooting for winds up in hell. When a movie ends like that I’m horribly disappointed to the point where I feel cheated hating the entire movie. It’s reached the point where I try to make find out if it has a “Drag Me To Hell” ending before I even watch.

    So much of “Supernatural” has developed that feel largely where Dean is concerned. No matter what he does he just can’t win. As each season passes he has struggled through many tribulations and continued to fight the good fight regardless of his pain, self-doubt or self recriminations and has received little or no reward or compensation for his efforts. In point of fact he has been mocked, belittle, berated and most recently abandoned by those he has sacrificed the most for.

    I like Sheri have watched Sam time and again show his disdain for his brother and treat him accordingly and more disturbingly so has many others on this show good and bad guys alike.

    It is all good and well to blame the writers for misrepresenting Sam but isn’t he a product of the writers to begin with? Sam is not a separate entity being manipulated by outside forces but a representation of the writers ideas of who and what he is and what they want to communicate. Likewise so is Dean. One has to ask what they think of Dean if they feel it is in any way acceptable for Sam and everyone else to treat Dean with such a lack of regard.

    At this point I watch Supernatural for the pleasure of the find acting skills of it’s leads and in the hope that some day there will be justice for Dean. Frankly I fear it may be a vain hope as selfish and self-righteous are qualities that people in the entertainment industry seem to hold in high esteem of late. Yet I still hope.

    Comment by Haley 56 — February 8, 2013 @ 1:14 pm

  46. Maybe when benny returns again, Sam will understand and acknowledge his mistakes, but I’m not holding my breath. But if it ends up with dean killing benny to save Sam, I WILL stop watching the show.
    The whole problem is that carver doesn’t think Sam ever made a mistake. He thinks Sam’s justified for not looking for dean because he’s sad and alone. What the hell kind of pathetic reason is that? But i think that’s the only reason we’re going to get.

    Comment by bahar — February 8, 2013 @ 1:14 pm

  47. That was supposed to be “fine” acting skills…

    Edit button where for art thou?

    Comment by Haley 56 — February 8, 2013 @ 1:15 pm

  48. Just my 2 cents.
    @ Anial #35- there is absolutley nothing wrong with the comment Jared mad on twitter about Jim. That was a “Very Nice” comment compared to what other people are saying. I am a follower on his twitter account, and he has Never acting in any way other that a very nice and respectful person. So, please don’t start spreading rumors about thins that you may not be 100% clear no, as you stated (not a follower. did not see it for yourself)

    @ Sheri – I am so sorry to hear that you hate one of the main characters (I’ve come to despise him.)I really want to understand your view on this. Last night was a pretty good episode, not perfect, but it was really good. I know you don’t agree with the way the writers are working with Dean and Sam. I say this because it is obvious that you are a very strong Dean person, and since you are not happy with the way Sam has treated him, you hate/despise the character. I just would hate for you to continue to not be happy with the show because of something we the fans have no control over,
    ‘the way the writers will do what they want to do.” Jensen and Jared seem to be happy with the way things are going. I don’t think they would be doing the show if they were not. Maybe all of us (and yes, this very much includes everyone, myself at the very top) should put a little more faith on the leads and try to enjoy the show the are working so hard for us to watch? Please feel free to voice your opinion, I would NEVER ask you not too, it just seems that you are not really enjoying the show anymore and are getting really focused on hating one character. The writers have done what they wanted to do. The scripts are pretty much written already.
    All we can do is watch and try to get the best enjoyment that we can out of the show. Maybe?

    Comment by Jose — February 8, 2013 @ 1:42 pm

  49. I thought in 8*12 they’re going to give us something that was about dean, Sam was special because of the Campbell side of the family (Mary’s deal) it was logical that now that they were going to explore Winchester side, they would give us something about dean but this side of the family is about Sam too. Before 8*13 I thought this MOL thing was going to be about them both, but now it seems that Sam really IS the brain. But I don’t like to separate them like this. Both of them have to be hunters and men of letters. MOL’s supposed to be THEIR legacy. It’s not right to just make it about Sam, especially when it’s going to be the main story for the upcoming seasons. Like this, dean’s going to be a sidekick forever.

    Comment by bahar — February 8, 2013 @ 2:00 pm

  50. Excellent post Haley56, and especially your point about Sam and Dean not being separate entities from the writers manifestation, and that’s why I find posts that blame the writers for Sam’s actions as handwaving Sam’s actions. The characters are written as the writers see them.

    I, too, look for justice and/or a happy ending at the end. I think it’s an American cultural thing of long standing. I don’t want to think that the bad guys always win or that acting badly wins the day. Unfortunately, I agree with you that SPN always shows that. For instance, I didn’t think Sam jumping into the bad CGI hole was a victory at all and bringing Sam back as soulless in S6 just reinforced that Lucifer won.

    Sure, Dean got Sam’s soul back, at the cost of his BFF Cas deceiving him and losing all friends and family, driving him to suicidal depression and alcoholism. Sam, on the other hand, gives a very weak, “I’m sorry for everything,” apology, shrugs his shoulders and says he’s paid his dues. What kind of victory is that?

    And then, to reinforce just how pathetic Dean is and what a ‘sucky life’ he has, they give us a Garth, who lives the good life, has it all, and feels no guilt about anything in the whole world…and he’s so smart, he can step right into Bobby’s shoes. What kind of a message is that about how the writers feel about Dean Winchester? Yep, he’s a weakling and a perpetual loser, but a damned hot one for sure.

    Which brings up another issue I had with this episode. The Dean Winchester we’ve seen for eight years always asks first, “How do we kill it?” Do I think for one minute that that Dean would go into a mysterious bunker filled with his grandfather’s ‘legacy’ of spells and magic, and all kinds of info on the monsters Dean hunts, and all he does is enjoy the water pressure and play house in his new digs?

    Am I supposed to believe that the Dean I’ve known for eight years, a man with enough imagination to come up with quick out-of-the-box methods to overcome evil if Plan A fails, wouldn’t be even a little bit curious to learn what is in that bunker that he may could use to kill the bad things? What spells or additional information he could add to what he already knows about magic to help him win against the bad guys? I don’t believe for a minute that Dean would sit around playing house and leave it to Sam to figure out what treasures the Yale-like bunker might hold that would be useful in the hunt.

    Comment by Sheri — February 8, 2013 @ 2:30 pm

  51. The Golem story was much more interesting than the Tablet story. Lol. I hope there will be a connection storyline between these two, and Golem will be the main theme on season 9. It’s refreshing!

    Anyway, to those who said Dean doesn’t have an important role as he can be replaced by Adam, his Dad who sell his soul for Sam or whoever, you are a dead wrong. Yes if we didn’t have Sammy, the wouldn’t be Evil Sammy or Apocalypse story. But who do you think that saved him MANY TIMES, including saved him from being manipulated by Lucifer. If it were not for Dean, I doubt he could take over his body from Lucy. Nobody cared so
    deeply to Sammy as Dean did.

    Supernatural is about two brothers; Sam Dean, not Sam Adam as they didn’t have a deeper connection, or Sam Jhon.

    Comment by shouichi — February 8, 2013 @ 4:16 pm

  52. I thought this episode was lick-the-plate-clean good. Just yummy. Aaron was adorable and funny and I want to see more of him. The Golem was truly impressive and dramatic. The Thule were a little carbon copy bad guy – but they had really cool rings.
    I really think whoever is doing the casting needs to get a raise. So many of the secondary characters have been wonderful. I loved Samandriel and Aaron. They throw away more good characters in a season than most series get in a full run. I adore the new hideout. And I loved the fanwinks. There was the shower reference for the wincest folks, and the harmless flirting incident with Dean.
    I don’t know who picked the drink for Aaron – but it just made the scene. I don’t care who you are – flustered Dean is just funny and so very likeable.
    I think I saw a promo that shows that the three tests are related to the tablet, not the MOL. I think Dean’s going to ace those tests.
    @Animal – Fom my perspective, the writers are going to almost absurd lengths NOT to offend folks with your sensibilities. I thinks it’s unfortunate that even something so watered down as flirting to put Dean off the trail is offending you. I mean, if you don’t even appreciate it and you’re going to stop watching anyway – I wish they’d just make the rest of us happy. For me that means give Dean a break – let him find someone who’ll love him and be worthy of him. Right now the best candidate is Cas, in my opinion. But hey – he has a thing for mothers and for asian chicks – Mrs Tran is single, right? And she’s fiesty! Plus we know Dean thinks she’s hawt. How about that? He could be Kevin’s step dad. See – Cas isn’t looking so bad, is he?
    hee hee hee (I’m just messing with you a little dude._

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 8, 2013 @ 6:59 pm

  53. shouichi @51, for the record John sold his soul for Dean not Sam, the only one to truly make a great sacrifice for Dean. It’s late and I’m tired so feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

    If the only significance to Dean’s character is that saves Sam’s life, any good body guard or competent side kick could do that.

    Comment by Haley 56 — February 8, 2013 @ 9:17 pm

  54. I am with Lisa1 and the others about moving on. I really do not understand why the writers did what they did for the first half of the season, it doesn’t make a jot of sense to me for so many reasons, esp the whole Sam story from not looking for Dean to the love story disaster. But I honestly believe that it was errors in judgment or something, not a deliberate hurting of the characters.

    I, for one, do believe the brothers are both on the same page now, and ‘would do anything for each other’ close again. They’ve been that way for awhile now, except for the blah 10/11 episodes, and sure, they’re human, have made mistakes, but BOTH care deeply for each other and have shown it in their own ways. Sam spent more than a century in Hell’s cage tortured by Lucifer, we don’t need to forget that. And decided to remember it all for his brother. He’s allowed some leeway, I think.

    Plus, I don’t get the ‘Dean isn’t important’ thing at all. He’s always stone no. 1, the foundation, in a way. Sam never does well without him, and the writers have shown that a number of times.

    So, basically, I’m really really pleased with the way the show is going now, and am willing to overlook the first half, even without explanations. I maybe don’t want to hear half-assed explanations from Sam, might make things worse.

    Supernatural still rocks!

    Comment by Tammy — February 9, 2013 @ 4:53 am

  55. Did anybody else notice that for the second episode in a row, both boys have 5 o’clock shadow? And damn does it look hot as hell on them!
    And yeah, Jared did look hot in a sweater vest, just like Jensen did last season in that otherwise awful Becky episode. Of course, these boys are both so ridiculously gorgeous that they can wear sackcloth and still shine.

    Comment by roxi — February 9, 2013 @ 5:32 am

  56. @ Tammy: I am always happy when fans accept and enjoy the show for what is shown, and I’m certainly happy that this season’s viewership is up quite a bit and the demo ratings are holding. Not only does it pretty much ensure at least ten seasons of the show, it’s also means that more money has been put into set designs and special effects, and I’m enjoying that tremendously. (Now if they would lose the awful music!)

    Howver, the points that you bring out are exactly why I can’t stand Sam now and don’t trust the writers one bit.

    “Sam spent more than a century in Hell’s cage tortured by Lucifer, we don’t need to forget that. And decided to remember it all for his brother. He’s allowed some leeway, I think.”

    Yes, I remember clearly that in SG’s fangirling of Sam, he suffered “THE WORST HELLPAIN EVER,” while Dean was told by everyone he knew and cared about, including Sam, “Boo hoo, suck it up.” Dean’s hell experience was quickly dropped and no one in the writers room seem to even remember that Dean was in Hell. Before stumbling half-way across the U.S. in one night to be by Dean’s side, Sam also chose Ruby over Dean. I remember that, too, especially when reminded this season that Sam again was choosing Amelia and his normal life over Dean and obviously held his 5-minute adolescent relationship with Amy in more esteem than Dean’s loyalty to Benny for his aid in keeping Dean alive in Purgatory and helping him to get out.

    For me, Sam long ago ran out of his share of leeway.

    “Plus, I don’t get the ‘Dean isn’t important’ thing at all. He’s always stone no. 1, the foundation, in a way. Sam never does well without him, and the writers have shown that a number of times.”

    Exactly. This is the biggest rub of all to us Dean fans. Dean is Sam’s caregiver, his handmaiden. Servicing all of Sam’s needs and wants regardless of any of Sam’s actions or choices is not a story; it’s a personality trait commonly known as ‘enabling.’

    We don’t know yet whether Dean has a story this season or not, but I think the show is at a crucial crossroads right now, and that crossroad is which brother or random support character does the upcoming tests.

    As I see it, since Purgatory wasn’t a story, Dean’s relationship with Benny turned out to be a minor sub-plot, and Dean isn’t on-board with being a MoLs, if Dean is given the tests, that will be his role this season (the Campbell half of Team MOLs).

    If Sam is given the tests, he becomes both the Campbell and Winchester side of the MoLs and Dean remains Sam’s action figure handmaiden and doesn’t have a story.

    If Sam and Dean do the tests together, then Dean is shut out of the Campbell side of the MoLs and doesn’t have his own story. He remains Sam’s action figure handmaiden.

    If a support character does the tests, then Sam remains a MoLs (the Winchester side), Dean remains Sam’s action figure handmaiden, and some reluctant hero steps up to save the day (the ‘reluctant hero’ theme being heavily played up this season).

    We should get a good indication of what the writers are thinking in the coming episode on Wednesday.

    Comment by Sheri — February 9, 2013 @ 6:36 am

  57. I see a lot of misunderstanding of Deans character, IMO. Dean has always been more of a parent than brother to Sam because of circumstances beyond his control. Dean has always been the constant for Sam and everyone else. Dependable, reliable, always making sure Sammy is ok. When you are that dependable people you love will take you for granted. Dean has learned and accepted this in Sammy. Eventually you accept that your not going to get credit for what you do, and your not going to get that apology when your wronged, and that’s ok as long as the people you love are happy your happy. I can relate.

    Comment by AW — February 9, 2013 @ 9:16 am

  58. I’m with AW on this on. As Benny would say ‘right on, brother!’

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 9, 2013 @ 9:53 am

  59. I’m with AW on this one. As Benny would say ‘right on, brother!’

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 9, 2013 @ 9:53 am

  60. AW, T1gerlilly and Tammy, You have just made our point (Sheri and I). Dean’s relevant only in so much as it pertains to Sam. He is SAM’S parent and body guard, Dean is the constant for SAM and SAM’S stone #1. It’s all about Sam. When will Dean be allowed to step aside from Sam and be a man in his own right, recognized for his worth independent of Sam.

    I am a single parent with two multiple handy-capped daughters and I have come to accept that I will never get the credit I am due from them. They are eternally children and as such see the world as it pertains to them. However their love, and need for me is never in doubt. They express it and show in constantly. Further I receive recognition for my efforts and sacrifices by others such as their doctors and my coworkers.

    Sam has long since left his childhood behind. He should be man enough to step out of that dependent child relationship with Dean. As a man he should recognize all Dean has been to him and done for him, and above all realize his big brother’s worth and value. Unlike my daughters he is neither delayed nor autistic. So what is his excuse?

    Comment by Haley 56 — February 9, 2013 @ 10:58 am

  61. Totally with AW on this one. Very nice #57.
    I’d also add that in addition to the Dean seeing himself as parent, Sam is an independent minded person, has been since a child. He has never been in this primarily to be with Dean; he’s primarily in it to accomplish some challenging task: find dad, discover what his demon blood means, save Dean, get Lilith, stop the apocalypse, now fulfill the legacy of Men of Letters. (I skipped 6 and 7; Sera’s Dean and Sam are Sera’s mental patients, not much else.) The “I need you for the companionship of family” has been largely Dean’s issue. Emotionally this relationship has always been one-sided. Dean cares more about Sam than Sam does Dean. Dean even saw Sam going to college as abandonment; Sam saw that as what young people do. Dean is hunting; it is part of him. Sam’s has only occasionally convinced himself that that is true of him; he needs a task and just being with Dean is not adequate. (I know many fans would give anything to have Dean wanting to be with them, but Sam is not a Dean fan. He is Dean’s brother.) Dean knows Sam and he overlooks Sam’s sometimes hurts and lack of consideration, but Dean does that to get what he wants: have Sam with him.
    So Dean turns out to be the most likable, most human, most people-centered brother. Sam can appear an ass on occasion. Sam will never have Dean’s emotional investment, be the people-person Dean is, and I don’t want him to be. The bond would be boring if it were Dean1 in a relationship with Dean2. Dean is the more likable, more enjoyable figure to watch, but in his independence and stubbornness Sam IMO is the more realistic and often the more interesting brother. They are brothers, but they are different. The only way to change this is to change Dean from his obsession of keeping Sam as a partner. If Sam became as sensitive, as thoughtful, and as caring as Dean, these two would be boring as hell. If Dean dumps Sam, you have a Dean series, which as much as I like Jensen, I would have little interest in. It is about two brothers, and to me Sam is as important as Dean. I like both for who they are.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 9, 2013 @ 11:53 am

  62. There has been no excuse given for the way Sam behaved for the first half of the season. I have no problem with Sam now. They got over it and moved on good for them. I still don’t believe we know the truth about the first half Sam, but that is just me.

    Comment by AW — February 9, 2013 @ 11:57 am

  63. AW–I agree again. I can see Sam dropping out of hunting, but I cannot understand not looking for Dean. The explanation offered was unbelievable. My hope that that was Carver dumping all of Sera’s stuff and introducing secondary characters he wanted to use, and now he is going to do Supernatural.If so, I’m ready to move on.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 9, 2013 @ 12:41 pm

  64. @ CaseyT #61 @ Josie #48: (Sorry, Josie, I missed your post previously, but I think in addressing Casey, this answers some of your questions.)

    I disagree with your view of Dean. True, under the EK and SG years, your view was what the show stressed, but I no longer see Dean as ‘needing the family companionship.’

    Dean clearly stated in 8.01 that he was a changed man, and I think the Purgatory flashbacks were used to show that.

    Benny represented the monsterous side of Dean, the one in Purgatory that even Benny was sometimes taken back at how ruthless and cold of a hunter Dean was (8.02). As I see it, Dean now PREFERS Sam to be around, because Sam is what keeps Dean from turning into that all-out ruthless hunter that Dean is capable of being.

    We’ve been shown several times that Dean is quite capable and willing to hunt on his own: 8.01 when he was surprised Sam was going with him, 8.05 when he took out a nest of vamps on his own, and 8.10 when Dean told Sam to go back to Amelia and then let Sam make his own choice whether to go or stay.

    In contrast to that, not only have we seen Sam angry that Dean was back and alive, we’ve seen Sam not concerned at all about Kevin or other people (because people always get killed) in 8.01, walk out on Amelia without any input from her the same day as he wanted her even if it wasn’t right but agree to give her time to decide (8.06, I think it was), not want to go on hunts and then make mistakes in researching those hunts (8.03 Heartache), be nothing more than a damsel in distress (8.03, 8.11, and 8.12), be irrationally angry at Benny and not appreciative that he helped keep Dean alive and get him out of Purgatory (8.05, 8.06 and 8.10), totally forget about Amelia Whatshername who was previously the love of his life that he chose over his brother when he found his new playhouse (8.13), do basic research for a hunt, get rescued again (8.13), and help shoot a couple of Nazis (8.13).

    We all view the show from our own perspectives, values, and life experiences, and it has been within my experience that sometimes you have to set boundaries for yourself and cut old friends lose when they become too high maintenance and there is no longer the give and take in a friendship. The writers may continue on and on with Dean giving Sam leeway for his mistakes and choices, but I’m not his brother and I don’t have to.

    As Haley says, Sam is now in his 30s and still harbors his self-centeredness, selfish, ALL ABOUT SAM behavior. I think fans who think this makes Sam a multi-layered interesting character are overlooking what the Show has actually given us. To buy into simply being happy that the brothers are back ‘together’ and choose to overlook the first ten episodes of this season are reliving those early years (S1-S3) and relying on fanon versions of the show, because that is not what the writers have given us — not even close.

    In short, that’s why I think the show is at a real crossroads with this coming episode. We don’t know the full story yet, and we won’t until it airs. For me, Sam is in serious need of a redemption arc, and if the show doesn’t give us that, then Sam will remain an mega spoiled jerk to me.

    On the other hand, Dean is looking more and more like a hot action figure, but I can watch that until such time that he becomes a pathetic action figure or they give him a love story. I can live with an action figure, but not a pathetic action figure. So, I’ve set my boundaries with the show. If they make Dean pathetic again or the minute they give him a love story, I’m out. While I love the action, I simply refuse to do another Lisa/Amelia story. It’s that setting of boundaries thing again, and those are my boundaries.

    And I will add that there is more good to SPN than there is bad. I’ve found the stories interesting this season, love the sets, lighting, and most of the direction (Bitten being the exception). I think the whole production crew is doing a super job, wonderful guest stars, continued great acting from the J2s (the whole Samelia thing from both actors an exception to that), and I am loving the potential the MoLs story has brought up with the possibility to delve into magic, mysticism, and secret societies in the coming seasons. That’s all exciting stuff.

    Comment by Sheri — February 9, 2013 @ 2:24 pm

  65. Sheri (Post #64): Not going to disagree with you at all. It eats at me that there is no explanation AT ALL for Sam being such an ASS the first part of the season. And it has made me have to watch Sam all the time now to see if he is going to run off or turn on his brother again. When nothing is explained or justified then it is very hard to trust the actions and motives.

    Sam was- as someone stated earlier- “thrown under the bus” this season. No reason or explanation why. And fans of the show are just supposed to let that go and forget about it.

    I can’t do that.

    But I still enjoyed last week’s episode and it has been along time since I have actually enjoyed a SN episode.

    But your post was well-written and true. It is a slap in the face to the fans of this series and these characters to take away one’s valid storyline and have the other one be a total ass to everyone.

    But I have been told I will get no explanation for that so I am not going to look for one. But I am not forgetting it by any means. And because of that this showrunner will be- for me- worse than the previous one.

    Comment by SL — February 9, 2013 @ 2:52 pm

  66. Sheri–as usual I see where you are coming from and I see why you are there. Its your well defended viewpoint. It think we both want Dean to have a story.(And not simply the action-muscle of the show for years.) I’d be happy if Dean went haywire and Sam had to somehow track him down. I’d love to see a Dean who made it clear to Sam that there needed to be a new relationship. I guess I simply see Dean as the one who needs to grow up–the 30something who needs to assert himself. I think Sam did at 17 or 18 when he went off alone and unsupported and, from every feedback he got, unloved to Stanford. Sam asserted Sam; I’d welcome Dean asserting Dean. At some point I would clearly like to see Dean as primarily not John’s son or Sam’s brother, but Dean. I think you are sometimes too wrapped up in Dean and assign too many bad things to Sam. I’m sure you must think I’m wrapped up in Sam and too unkind to Dean. People see things differently as you say.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 9, 2013 @ 3:20 pm

  67. @ CaseyT: When I discuss the show, it tends to be in the context of the whole and the overall big picture — comes from the many years in the strategic management end of business, I guess.

    The basic premise that I work off is that the brothers were always and should still be the two sides of the same coin. Swan Song threw that out, erasing every storyline Dean had, and in S6, Dean could have taken a year’s hiatus and it wouldn’t have made a bit of difference. S7 was a lost season for both brothers. This season that coin translates into Sam being the Winchester side of the coin and Dean as the Campbell side. That’s why I say the trials are an important crossroads for Carver. They’ll either bring Dean into the story or they won’t.

    I think we have seen Dean grow up and it started last season. I view that as being taken away when the show had him accept all fault for Sam’s ugliness, not only once, but in two episodes, just in case we didn’t get it the first time around. Yet, I think what the show actually wanted us to believe is that Dean made the mature decision to cut Benny lose because he was telling Sam to do that, too — both feet in or both feet out.

    Even in this last episode, we saw Dean have some reservations about the bunker of knowledge and the great ‘legacy’, even though Sam is head over heels with it. Dean’s not raining on Sam’s parade, but he’s not buying into the whole thing either. This fits with Dean’s character. Dean is a sly bastard and always plays his cards close to his chest — the burned phone text, for instance. He fights dirty, because he fights to win, and he is explosive in his anger. That’s Dean.

    I also think we saw Dean come into his own person and out from under John’s shadow when he defended John to Henry. Dean will always defend John and he was the right brother to do that because of his past complicated daddy issues. John did, after all, make Dean the person he is today and there’s no taking that away, ever, not from Dean and, IMO, not from the show. That’s why the writer had Dean be the one who didn’t warm up to Henry immediately, and then slowly bond with him.

    Sam, I don’t feel, has come into his own at all. Leaving the family was not the first or last time we’ve seen Sam run, and this year he was still running — right into Amelia’s bed and an imaginary ‘real’ normal life, as shown in Hunteri Heroici. Sam NEEDS Dean or he goes completely nuts. It’s Sam who needs to grow up, and that won’t/can’t happen until he faces himself, his bad choices, and accepts responsibility for his choices. Irrationally hating Benny and comparing him to Amy is the best example I can give of him not doing any of that. That’s why I say Sam is in serious need of a redemption arc, and I hope that we get that this year.

    While I openly admit that Dean is my favorite, my glasses aren’t completely rosy Dean. I was the first to call him an emasculated, wussy houseboy who relied on Lisa as a mother figure. As far as his character as it is now, I don’t think Dean will ever be able to shed his low self-esteem issues until he deals with what he did in Hell. That’s what tore Dean apart — becoming the very thing he despises and has fought all of his life. EK, in all of his emotional immaturity, and SG in her Sam fangirling, completely missed that point about Dean’s character. I think Jeremy Carver will, too, since he (for the second time) dropped Dean’s PTSD story. In my mind, Dean simply cannot come to see his worth as a human while he has that lingering image of himself in his mind. That has got to be resolved…and that’s never going to happen with these writers.

    I haven’t been terribly disappointed in each individual episode this season, except for Bitten. I found that one to be a total throw-away (and a disappointment in a season where we get an extra episode – Hello, Time for a Wedding).

    I found this episode quite fun, and I thought it was a good one to move Sam towards being totally committed to hunting. But I also found Dean completely out of character.

    I do not believe for one minute that the Dean we have seen, the one who knows there is a mother of a payback for anything that looks like a gift (or a break), would enjoy hot showers, drink fine scotch, and play with bathrobes and swords and NOT be even a little curious about what treasures of knowledge that would help him kill the bad guys, about what secrets might be in that bunker. Dean’s first question is always, “How do we kill it.” I don’t believe for one minute he would leave learning all of that knowledge to Sam while he played goofus. Yet, as a stand-alone, it was a fun, well-put-together episode.

    There are many ways for the writers to show Sam have come commitment or feelings for his brother. I had hoped for a Dean off the rails and Sam dragging him back before the season started, but it’s too late for that to happen. I certainly never dreamed of a Sam who couldn’t stand the sight of his brother, but that’s what we got, with Sam’s end of the rainbow being Amelia (??). That’s still a head-scratcher to me.

    Stupidly probably, but I still look for the writers to give us something from Sam. I don’t know what it will be, and I’m not sure I will find it satisfactory because it’s going to take a lot to get over Sam’s actions this season, but I do expect something. That said, the show has never failed to disappoint, so we’ll see.

    Comment by Sheri — February 9, 2013 @ 4:15 pm

  68. @Sheri – I agree that Dean is too smart not to use any weapon he has to hand – and he’s spent too many years where the information in his dad’s journal saved his life not to recognize a how useful a weapon this knowledge might be. But maybe he just needs time away from the bunker and away from Sam. There are some issues between siblings that never are resolved – one person just decides to forgive and move on. Stowing his crap and moving on is pretty much Dean’s modus operandi anyway. It’s what’s let him keep going no matter what heaven or hell has thrown at him. He’s just f$&king tough that way. Totally zen, too: he focuses on he moment he’s in and the simple pleasures – food, sex, and hell yes – shower pressure. Making each day count is what you do when you don’t know how long you’ve got – so that’s always seemed pretty realistic to me. I think long discussions to ‘resolve’ things would be out of character – and boring to watch. I was watching Arrow and was just amazed at how much exposition there was. It was like the writers didn’t trust the actors at all – not just to convey the action – but simply to understand it. It made me appreciate SPN – both the writers and the actors. Someone on tumblr wondered if the writers ever write entire monologues just of Jensen’s expressions. Watching him walk around in LARP – I could totally believe it. I know some of you feel disappointed about the beginning of the season. But even the worst epi of SPN is still SO much better than practically anything out there.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 9, 2013 @ 5:45 pm

  69. 64- Sheri, what love story? They never give any real love story to Dean. Unless you consider Cassie, and that was so horribly done by all involved, yes including Jensen, that it was laughable. And even that was all the way back in season 1. And Lisa was never shown to really be a love story as much as a promise to Sam. We never got to see the romantic side of their relationship, not to me anyway. So I think seeing Dean really have an honest to God romance with real feeling and passion just once would demonstrate a lot of character growth, at least to me. He’d finally be doing something that made HIM happy. And no, not soap opera garbage like Amelia, but a lady who already knows all about him, doesn’t turn him into a selfish jerk, and who understands why ultimately he cannot stay with her.
    And Casey, I see where you’re coming from about Sam overall, but I have to disagree that he’s the more interesting character. I think they’re both equally interesting. At least I find Sam very interesting when he’s really the Sam that I know.
    I didn’t find Sam interesting at all in the beginning of this season, because a Sam that has suddenly stopped caring about his beloved brother,or anyone else for that matter except his married girlfriend who really doesn’t know him at all, who has become only interested in his own happiness and nothing else, is not interesting to me. As would be the same for Dean. And people think Sam is more independent minded, but I feel that’s because he’s never really experienced Dean turning his back on him. Even back in the beginning of season 5, when Sam told Dean maybe he should stop hunting because he no longer trusted himself after what happened with Ruby, and Dean agreed with him, he was taken aback, said he expected Dean to argue with him about it. So he knows Dean will never totally abandon him no matter what. I don’t think that’s really being completely independent minded when you know full well someone’s not going to abandon you no matter how much you hurt them.
    I think Dean’s love for Sam and devotion to looking out for him, despite how often Sam’s turned his back on Dean and hurt him, does make Dean interesting. Dean, to me, is a character of opposites, someone who lives for today and indulging his sensual appetites of the flesh, good food, whiskey, and sexual pleasure, and kid in a candy store fanboying for pop culture, and yet, he was basically a parent, adult since he was four years old, all his life having the sdult responsibilities of taking care of Sam. He was forced to grow up too soon, never really having a childhood. So he is a very complex character to me.

    Comment by roxi — February 9, 2013 @ 5:58 pm

  70. @ t1gerlilly: Good points you brought up and, like you, I would HATE to see any long discussions about anything that went on this season. There’s so much more interesting ways to bring resolution and, you absolutely right in that they have two actors who they can trust to do what needs to be done. Like I said, though, Dean can stow his crap and move on, but I need a redemption arc for Sam. Even with the crummy stories Dean has had in the past, he’s never lost his connection with the audience. Sam has lost his connection to me as a viewer, and that is a very bad thing for a lead character. I hope the writers think about that and give him one this season.

    I tried Arrow and made it through two episodes. I’ve briefly touched base about three times at the end while waiting on SPN to see if it had improved any. God, I can’t stand all the emoting and all the exposition telling the viewers exactly everything he writers intend them get. They ‘feel’ entirely too much, and especially the lead, for my tastes.

    I agree that SPN is the best thing on TV. It is the only show I watch. Seriously, I tell all my friends that I pay a fortune for cable TV just to get the Cartoon Network and one hour a week of SPN. When SPN ends, I’ll go strictly to Netflix for the cartoons and dump the cable.

    Comment by Sheri — February 9, 2013 @ 6:09 pm

  71. 70-I don’t think that Sam lost his connection with the audience. If he had, we wouldn’t all be scratching our heads over his OOC behavior in the first half of the season. I do think a lot of us were pissed off, not so much at him but about him, because this had never been Sam before. And as I’ve said, Sam has down things to hurt Dean in the past, but even then, the audience could still see his inner conflict, because no matter what it was still clear that he loved Dean, and was hurt that his actions had hurt Dean. Even after nearly killing Dean in that hotel room, even after choosing Ruby, we were shown how Sam’s choice there, his fight with Dean, really hurt and upset him.
    We didn’t see any of that in the first half of S8. And I think that’s what bothered so many fans.
    I feel that it’s precisely because we do know and love Sam that we all want a decent explanation for why he acted the way he did towards Dean after he returned. Because we just KNOW this can’t really be Sam. I choose to believe he’s just been numb from everything that happened in the past year, from thinking Dean was dead, to all the crap with Amelia and Don, etc.
    And Dean needs to also explain to Sam exactly what he went through in Purgatory. I think maybe the reason Sam responded the way he did to Benny is just that after everything he had experienced in the past year, to find that his big brother who had always been so black and white about monsters had become so close and defensive of one, threw him for a loop, it was so OOC for Dean. One more thing in that had become so strange and unfamiliar when maybe he was looking to Dean for a sense of getting his ‘normal’ back. If this turned out to be the case I could understand and forgive Sam for his initial reaction to Benny. And if he truly believed Dean was dead and wanted him to be at peace, I could forgive him for not looking for him as well. But SPN needs to show this. So far, it doesn’t look like they will, so I guess I will just have to be happy that the boys are getting along again and Sam seems to really be back into the ‘job’.

    Comment by roxi — February 10, 2013 @ 4:36 am

  72. I’m saddened to see that the show, after having Dean accept the blame formthe brothers issues, for accepting the blame for Sam leaving Amelia, for admitting mistakes he’s made, that now the brothers are fine and hunky-dory, all the while sweeping Sam’s mistakes and his blame under the rug. I get the show and fans wanting to move past this all, but to do so like this makes the relationship very one-sided and, in my opinion, a farce. Sam needs to own up to his mistakes, admit his wrongdoings and jealousy this season, including episode 8.09, and until the show allows Sam to do so, I don’t think the relationship will ever be fixed, at least for me.

    Comment by Bree — February 10, 2013 @ 4:53 am

  73. 72- Bree, we might as well accept it, as far as I can see, Carver and the SPN writers don’t believe Sam did anything wrong, so we’ll never get what you want. As far as I

    Comment by roxi — February 10, 2013 @ 5:05 am

  74. @ roxi: I think initially SG did not commit to Dean’s Lisa love story, but then she did. Why else would Lisa have gotten a most-favored character montage?

    I also get that Dean learned from that love story that, as a hunter, he could not ever have that life. That scenario has been set up quite clearly in the show. Examples:

    The djinn came after Dean when he was with Lisa –took them a year to find him, but they came after him.

    No bad thing was interested in Sam while Dean was BBQ’ing with the neighbors. The djinn eventually went after him, but Crowley, who was in cohorts with Cas) wasn’t concerned with Sam until Dean was back in the picture.

    Once Cas took on the Levi and disappeared, nothing happened until Dean made the decision to make a move. Both Sam and Bobby made no moves until Dean was ready to (S7).

    Not one single thing was interested in Sam during his year with Amelia until Dean showed back up. Kevin’s girlfriend reported to Crowley that “Dean Winchester is back,” in 8.01 and that’s when the action picks up again.

    Rather than another worthless love story, what Dean needs to learn is “All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.” (Burke??)Dean needs to learn that hunting is important and that his life is worthy because he is a top-shelf hunter, and to do that, he needs to come to terms with turning into a torturer in Hell and enjoying it. He found clarity in hunting in Purgatory, because he did not have to deal with the rights and wrongs of life, worry about Sam, mourn all the friends and family he has lost along the way. He didn’t have to worry about the weight of the world on his shoulders — all he had to do was hunt and kill monsters, and he was obviously good at it, because he lived. What he didn’t learn is the worth of hunting (“All I see on our family tree is dead branches”– paraphrased, of course).

    Fanfic can fill the need for dreams of family, kids and hot sex, but I’d rather the show concentrated on this very big issue they have presented since the Pilot and never addressed, and I’d rather see that realization come from something Sam does, instead of a woman who is all knowing and all understanding. I agree with Bree, that the brothers relationship is very one-sided. In using Sam to move Dean towards this realization, both brothers would mature and both characters would be advanced and the emphasis would remain on the two Winchester brothers — what the show is supposed to be about.

    Until Sam is moved off his entitlement attitude and Dean is moved off his esteem issues, neither brother is fit to be tied to a love story. Both will continue to keep a part of themselves separate from their partner, they will be living a life of lies, as we’ve seen Sam do in both of his love stories and Dean do in not giving himself fully as a mature partner to Lisa because he was mourning Sam and living a life that made him untrue to himself.

    Comment by Sheri — February 10, 2013 @ 7:32 am

  75. Sheri, I guess we’ll just have to continue to disagree on this issue.
    Sam and Dean are HUMAN.That means that once in a while they will have the same human feelings and longings that everyone has, that includes falling in love at some point. It happens.
    I don’t believe SPN should revolve around romances any more than you do, but you can’t expect two great looking, red blooded human young men to NEVER have those feelings. They’re not automatons.
    It’s not realistic to think that they should never come across someone in their travels that they will develop an attraction to.
    Of course, like I said before, for both Sam and Dean, the only women that would work would be women who know all about them and understand that hunters are what they are and will always be. And again, this would be something that would happen towards the end of the series. Robert Singer has said that they are trying to work Amelia back into the show. If this is the case, I don’t understand why Dean shouldn’t also find a true love eventually. I think after all he and Sam have suffered and sacrificed, they deserve to have someone to love and make them happy.
    As for season 6, I never saw that being about Dean trying to be normal as much as SPN having to figure out a way to bring Sam back. I never expected nor do I want Sam or Dean to give up hunting and live normal, settled down lives, but I still would like to see Dean have a real, albeit brief, romance and not just a one night stand.
    And I think if Dean did find a lady who fell in love with him, not because he was Sam’s protector or John’s good soldier son but simply on his own merit, loving him for who he is by himself, that would show Dean that he is indeed worth a lot.
    I know I’m the only one here who wants to see this and I’m a broken record and all, but that is how I feel.

    Comment by roxi — February 10, 2013 @ 9:00 am

  76. I don’t think the audience has delinked from Sam. Indeed, I don’t think I’ve seen as much comment about Sam on the boards– ever. Sam’s Amelia story, which virtually eliminated Sam from SPN and made him an ass, seems to have reminded many just how important reliable and sweet Sam was to this series while others were enraged by this new Sam. Success for a character or actor is not an audience liking you. “It’s not whether they love you or hate you; its whether you get noticed.” Sam has got noticed. And, the Men of Letters intro in the past two episodes, which clearly puts Sam back into the series, has been about as well-received as any real turn in the series since the angel introduction. IMO it has been a surprisingly good year for Sam in Supernatural. Some love him; some hate him, but all notice him. Can’t do any better than that.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 10, 2013 @ 9:10 am

  77. And I’m guess that I’m also the only one here who feels that the young actor, Ostric Chau, is doing a great job as Kevin. I don’t think he’s gettin enough credit. Now, don’t get me wrong, SPN should still always center around Sam and Dean, but as far as all these secondary characters, to me, Kevin makes the most sense and is the least annoying. Ostric has really grown into the role, taking Kevin from a frightened, reluctant kid overwhelmed by the events taking place around him, to a mature, strong, confident young man who has accepted his fate as a prophet, is now focused on the task, and even seems to realize how important a job it is. It was his new attitude, I believe, that hit home with Dean about outside distractions more so than Sam’s situation with Amelia.

    Comment by roxi — February 10, 2013 @ 9:14 am

  78. CaseyT, I agree. Most of the talk-good or bad-has been about Sam this year.

    roxi, I like Kevin and I agree with what you said about the actor’s portrayal.

    Comment by jace — February 10, 2013 @ 9:20 am

  79. I just thought of something else. Now, I know most of you don’t want to see Michael and Lucifer revisited but to me, that story was never really finished and was concluded to easily. We all know that Crowley has a vested interest in keeping Lucifer in the Hellcage, because if he ever got out and came back, Crowley would no longer be the King of Hell. But what if that’s also true of Michael, that the remaining powerful angels, like Naomi, are afraid of Michael getting out and coming back to Heaven, thus reclaiming his power as THE reigning archangel, so they want to close the entrance to Heaven? Just a thought, but I believe that Michael and Lucifer still have some part to play before it’s all over.

    Comment by roxi — February 10, 2013 @ 9:46 am

  80. Oh, I agree that Sam is the topic of the season, but I am only saying that I have lost my connection with Sam as a character, not that others have. Until such time as Sam gets a redemption arc that I find believable, I simply no longer care about the character.

    I also don’t think the show will ever be great again without Sam and Dean coming together as that one coin with both sides, so I do hope that he is eventually redeemed in a believable way.

    Comment by Sheri — February 10, 2013 @ 9:51 am

  81. Sorry for all the posting today, but this is my only day off(3rd shift) my husband has to work tonight so he is sleeping and I must be quiet. Maybe I’ll put on headphones and watch ‘The Warriors’ for the hundredth time in my life, on Netflix. I mention that because I just KNOW Dean loves that movie! LOL
    Would love to have him reference it in an episode, pop culture fanboy that he is.

    Comment by roxi — February 10, 2013 @ 9:57 am

  82. I do think Sam is a multi-layed interesting character. It’s not like the Dean fans are so astute and perceptive that they can see something in Sam we blinded Sam fans can’t see. I don’t agree with their opinions of Dean either.

    I find it easy to believe that Dean would shower, relax and all that while Sam does the research, Dean being a product of the writers just like Sam.

    I’m frankly tired of Dean’s issues under Sera Gamble but since he can’t seem to get past them, I’ll just ignore them. I don’t really care anyway.

    I prefer S1 and S2 Dean, not this woobie of the universe everyone done him wrong endless suffering character. I suppose I should feel sorry for this Dean everyone sees, the perpetual victim of his brother, but I don’t.

    I fail to see any handmaiding done by Dean this episode.

    I’m glad to see this new arc coming along for Sam and pulling him back into the world. He and the Sam fans deserve it after sitting through the godawful Amelia arc. Now maybe Sam can be part of the mytharc again instead of sitting out the action being lovey dovey with Amelia.

    Comment by josephineschmoe — February 10, 2013 @ 11:12 am

  83. this is a part of a review about this episode i read somewhere :
    “It’s a brave new world, and the lowest levels are currently being driven by Sam, Aaron, and Garth. These guys are hardly in command and only getting started in what will be their lifelong quests, but they’re connected, and they’re not alone, even if they are last descendants of their groups. They’re all carrying on family legacies of hope, even Garth, who saw Bobby as a father figure and felt compelled to carry on his work. Luckily Sam has Dean as his reliable (and equal) partner that helps pull everything together, and Aaron has his Golem.”
    that’s exactly why i’m so angry with this episode. dean to Sam is like Golem to Aaron. a robot, a slave, a handmaiden whatever you want to call it.

    Comment by bahar — February 10, 2013 @ 11:32 am

  84. 82- At least Sam HAD an arc. Dean has had nothing.

    Comment by roxi — February 10, 2013 @ 11:36 am

  85. On another topic: when the hell is Rick Worthy, the fabulous Alpha Vamp, gonna make good on his season 7 promise and be back? I am rewatching his episode from season 6 right now. Those eyes! That voice! The elocution! Him and Death, a couple of fantastic characters. I’d rather see either one of them then Charlie.

    Comment by roxi — February 10, 2013 @ 11:51 am

  86. Hell, for that matter, I think it would be cool to see Dr. Robert(Robert Englund) again. And what about Tessa?
    Of course, I’d really love to see Chuck again. I still don’t think he’s God, but he was a great character. And you know what? Rob Benedict is really kinda cute when he’s his normal self!
    For the record, I still believe that Joshua was God. I wouldn’t mind seeing him again either.

    Comment by roxi — February 10, 2013 @ 12:17 pm

  87. @ CaseyT – I completely disagree w/your view of Sam. I definitely don’t think Dean cares more about Sam than Sam cares about Dean. I think they both care a great deal about each other and would do anything for each other.

    Sam searched high and low for answers when Dean was going to die in S1. He didn’t just let it happen like Dean wanted. He fought for Dean and found the faith healer. He made Dean sit up front. He forced Dean to go onto the stage. Sam came back for Dean in Scarecrow b/c he was worried about Dean. Sam was ready to do anything in IMTOD to save Dean even when learning a reaper was after Dean. His words to Bobby about not trashing the Impala simply b/c it was broken was about Dean. He was a wreck when Dean went to Hell. He tried to switch places w/Dean and tried to do his own demon deal, but no one would deal w/him. Last year, Sam begged Dean to not get killed. Sam was scared that Dean was being reckless w/his life. I also saw Sam’s decision to not tell Dean about his hallucinations was a way to protect Dean. He heard Dean talking about how stressed he was, and he didn’t want to add more stress w/his problems so he kept them to himself. Heck, the story was pure crap, but Sam never complained to Dean about his Lucifer problems. He managed them on his own b/c he didn’t want to burden Dean w/his problems. And, yes, the writing was inconsistent and crappy, but in S4, Sam told Chuck or Pamela – one of them – that he was doing what he was doing for Dean. I do think Dean was part of Sam’s motivation that season. We saw – or rather I saw – how destroyed Sam was by Dean’s “death” in Mystery Spot.

    I think there have been a multitude of examples of Sam caring as much about Dean and his welfare as Dean cares about Sam. If Sam didn’t, everyone wouldn’t be having a fit over Carver’s crap story of Sam not looking for Dean. We would have all accepted it as Sam being the selfish, self-absorbed, uncaring ass he is and keep moving. The story didn’t ring true to many of us for the simple fact that Sam DOES care as much about Dean as Dean cares about Sam and would do anything for Dean just like Dean would do for him! That’s why many were shocked when Sam said he didn’t look. That’s not Sam Winchester.

    So, no, in my eyes, Sam loves Dean just as much as Dean loves Sam. Sam is NOT – in my eyes – a selfish ass. He is not an uncaring person. The simple fact that Sam hunts tells me he cares about people. He’s always putting his life on the line for strangers. So, because he wanted to do something else w/his life . . . that means he doesn’t care about people like Dean does? Why is Sam (and Dean for that matter) expected to spend their entire lives hunting? If either one wanted to quit, I’d support their decision. They’ve given a lot, died several times, and lost many friends and relatives. I don’t think Sam’s decision to go to college was a selfish one or makes him uncaring. That’s just your take on him I guess.

    And, IMO, both Sam and Dean are likeable. I don’t watch for just Dean or just Sam. I watch for them both. I like both characters. I like both actors. They are both likeable, caring, interesting characters, IMO.

    We’ll just have to agree to disagree w/r/t Sam. You have a very, IMO, harsh, negative view of him that I don’t understand. In fact, if I saw Sam the way you do, I don’t think I could like him at all but miles vary as they say.

    ———————————-

    @Sheri – I’m not “choosing” to ignore anything. I’m simply accepting the reality of the situation. Based on what I’m seeing, it is highly unlikely that the writers plan on further addressing Sam’s decision to not look for Dean. They just ain’t gonna do it. I’m sure Carver feels it was explained in 8.01 when Sam said “nothing says family like the whole family being dead” and referenced that rule Carver conveniently made up about them agreeing to not look for each other. There’s the explanation. That’s it. Sam’s decisions have never been mentioned again. If they were planning on further explaining, his decision, we could have done that in 8.02 or 8.03 or through any of the many pointless Amelia FBs we got but that dint’ happen. We’re 14 episodes into the season. It makes less and less sense to address something that should have been addressed earlier in the season. The story has moved on or so it seems. What was stated in 8.01 is all we’re likely to get re: Sam’s decision so I can either wring my hands about it or just be grateful I’m finally getting some episodes I actually enjoy. I’d rather do the latter.

    I’m not saying you guys still can’t be angry about it. You can. Do I want a better explanation? Sure. Is it likely to happen? really don’t think so. I don’t get any sense that Carver feels it needs to be addressed. I think they feel the FBs explain everything. I just see it as bad writing that I cannot fix.

    Plus, a lot of you have disliked Sam since S4 or earlier so I really doubt there is anything Sam could say or do that would change your opinions of him. I like Sam. Even when I hated everything he did in S4 and hated the fact that he never apologized to Dean in S5 for the personal wrongs, I never started hating Sam, the character.

    Sam had been well and truly thrown under a bus! The bus actually ran him over, backed up and ran him over again a few times. At this point, I do not trust any explanation Carver would even give for Sam abandoning Dean and Kevin. The simple fact that he authorized a story where Dean disappears and Sam does NOT look for him tells me that Carver knows next to nothing about Sam Winchester! He’s the one who took Sam down this OOC path, and we want this same guy to offer up the explanation?!?!?! Who knows what he would write? Who knows how OOC and whacky it would sound?

    For me, if the writers are done w/that story, which they seem to be, then I’m cool! It was a bad, horrible, OOC story anyway that never made any sense to me. Short of Sam having a mental breakdown or suffering from angel amnesia, there’s very little to explain away his decision to not look for Dean or answer Kevin’s calls.

    Carver never even told a story about Sam’s decision to not look for Dean; we were just thrown into the Amelia (pointless) FBs. I’m not sure why Carver wanted this story told. Sam could have still hooked up w/the awful Amelia AFTER having searched for Dean. What was the point of Sam not searching? There was no point that I can see. Even Carver said he just wanted to explore what would happen if Sam didn’t search. He never had any story in mind. Well, he explored it . . hope he satisfied his curiosity.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 10, 2013 @ 12:32 pm

  88. Lisa, this is my point also. Just because Sam now had a girlfriend, what the hell does that have to do with him not caring about/looking for Dean? Just because you get a lover, that means you stop loving others, like your family? And again, just because a lot of us were pissed about it didn’t mean we hated Sam, we just KNEW that Sam would never do this. It was so damn OOC that’s what threw everybody. I’m not sure what Jeremy Carver was trying to do here, but he wrote some of the best SPN epps, so what the hell? How can he NOT know these guys? As I’ve stated before, even though it’s no secret that I’ve had issues with some of Sam’s past treatment of Dean, even then, it was clearly shown that Sam still loved him and in the end would have done anything for him, including giving his own life if need be. The way Sam was written at the start of season 8 was just NOT Sam. And yes, it was poor treatment of his character. So far, I can’t tell who Carver dislikes more; Dean, because he keeps blaming him for everything, or Sam, because he keeps writing him in such an unlikable fashion. But hopefully, Carver has realized his mistakes. The last couple of episodes have taken a turn for the better. Let’s just hope it continues this way.

    Comment by roxi — February 10, 2013 @ 1:26 pm

  89. Since the next epp has a cowboy theme, I really hope they use my favorite Thin Lizzy song’Cowboy Song’.
    I’m a classic hard rock woman.

    Comment by roxi — February 10, 2013 @ 1:43 pm

  90. Speaking of which, if Carver really wants to revamp the show, just go ahead and shell out the extra bucks for the real classic rock songs. Get Zeppelin, which makes sense since they’re Dean’s favorite band, and also, maybe some Thin Lizzy, old Van Halen, more AC/DC/, Metallica, Motorhead, and maybe some Allman Brothers, like ‘Blue Sky’.

    Comment by roxi — February 10, 2013 @ 1:51 pm

  91. IMO the biggest issue is that Sam never tried to convince dean. We see everything from the point of view of the characters and that’s the problem here. Sam never explained his decision to DEAN. Carver explained Sam’s reasons for not searching in fbs. He didn’t look for dean because he was overwhelmed. He was broken to the point that Amelia’s love SAVED him. If after dean’s return, especially after finding out how upset dean was about it in “Southern Comfort” Sam had shown a little effort to convince dean, I could accept Carver’s explanation (however lame and insincere it was)
    We are upset because dean was upset. If from the first episode, Carver hadn’t shown us that dean sees Sam’s decision like a betrayal, we wouldn’t be head over heels waiting for an explanation right now.
    And where does that leave the brothers? IMO Sam is a selfish bastard, but not because he didn’t look for dean, after all, he had his reasons. But He’s a selfish bastard because he didn’t think dean had a right to UNDERSTAND his reasons. He didn’t think dean’s worth the effort it took to explain himself.
    And what does that say about dean? The dean that has serious abandonment issues. This is what he thinks right now: He thinks the same brother that he’d died for more than once, had left him to die for a girl, he thinks Sam doesn’t give a rat’s a** that he’s dead or alive, he thinks when he was fighting for his life, Sam had found something he NEVER had, Happiness. He thinks his beloved brother’s happy with him out of the picture. And again he has serious abandonment issues. Of course the innate reaction is rejection (8*10) to save himself some dignity. But when he finds out Sam’s chosen to stay to do the job, he latches on for dear life. So again what does that say about dean? It says that he’s a pathetic loser who can never man up and stand on his own two feet.
    That’s the picture Carver had presented of the brothers in this season at least in my eyes. And what I regret about this the most is that carver calls this maturity.

    Comment by bahar — February 10, 2013 @ 3:06 pm

  92. @ Bahar – The problem – as I see it – is Carver didn’t bother to show Sam’s devastation at Dean’s loss. In the FBs, we got a few vague lines about running and his world imploding but we didn’t see it, so it rings hollow.

    Imagine seeing a distraught Sam muttering to himself about how he just can’t take this anymore. Such a scene would have allowed some viewers to empathize with Sam and better understand his position. This is a drama. If Sam’s world “imploded,” then I wanted to see it. Sam hanging around the boring Amia and fixing radiators and kitchen sinks is NOT showing me his devastation at Dean’s loss. Carver skipped the most interesting part of Sam’s year – the part where he was loss, distraught, and decided to hang it up.

    It leads me to believe we weren’t meant to empathize with Sam. We were meant to be as angry with him as Dean. I know I was, and I’m a bi-bro fan.

    All I can say is Sam’s story in the first half was bad. It was poorly written and poorly executed. And the worst offense, IMO, is it served NO purpose. Nothing that happened to Sam meant anything. Nothing that happened to Dean meant anything. It’s a shame Carver didn’t go with Sera’s planned story of having Sam rescue Dean OR start the season off with Henry and the MOL. Either would have been more interesting and served a greater purpose than what was written!

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 10, 2013 @ 4:49 pm

  93. Lisa1–I agree with you that Sam’s story did him no favors by telling the audience about his pain, rather than showing it. A few lines about Sam being lost or devestated didn’t balance the “I found something I never had”, nor his times with Amelia. So in that way, I do think that the writing didn’t make Sam sympathetic.

    At the same time, I still agree with bahar that this problem was further compounded by the writers showing Sam putting little to no effort into trying to help Dean understand or to understand himself why Dean was so unhappy. Sam just seemed put out that Dean was hurt, and has at no time accepted any responsibility for the trouble between them this season. I agree that they’ll probably never address it, and that it would have been hard to do so. But saying it would have been hard for Sam to gain the audience’s forgiveness as if that’s a reason not to try to write Sam any redemption arc doesn’t work for me. I understand what Sam went through when Dean disappeared, and I don’t begrudge him his reaction. I do begrudge Sam his behavior since Dean returned and the fact that he takes no responsibility in their conflict. That’s unfortunately in character for him, given S4-early S5, so that can’t be blamed on Carver or bad writing.

    I agree that at this point the first half of the season for both Sam and Dean feels pretty pointless. Sam has been given a new and better story, and that’s a good thing. Dean’s story has not been replaced, and if it isn’t that’s a bad thing. I’ve enjoyed the last several episode and would like to turn the page, but like Sheri I’m finding it hard to swallow “the conflict in the first half is all solved now because Dean apologized and is now putting Sam first.” That doesn’t do Sam or Dean any characters any favors. I don’t know how they can fix it, but that doesn’t excuse them from trying. The fact that they’re not going to bother is problematic to me. If it’s not to you, that’s great, but I definitely understand why for some handwaving Sam’s actions of the first half is not a real solution to the way the first half of the season was written.

    Comment by yeah — February 10, 2013 @ 9:42 pm

  94. There’s more to it than what yeah #93 and I have brought out, and here’s the big rub.

    When a story is plotted out, there should be something to say, some change or growth, or the recognition of a failure to grow in the characters. It doesn’t matter what the story is, the characters drive story, because how a character sees the world, what they think, feel and do, is how the story unfolds.

    If that is not done, then there’s no way to even guess how the characters will act from one episode to the other, and that’s where we are in SPN now.

    One basic fact of writing is that if a plot, or even a sub-plot, is introduced, there has to be some pay-off, some resolution, to it. If not, why bother having introduced it in the first place and spending time on it at all, or have the audience spend time watching it. Why have either lead invest in building up a character and a connection too the audience? Samelia, Sam’s reaction to Dean, Purgatory, Benny’s relationship to Dean, Dean’s initial PTSD all come to mind. There has been no payoff to any of these stories. Yet, now a whole lot more is being introduced into the show and there is the continuing tablet and Naomi thing. Will they have a pay-off? Are these things going to drive the characters and, if so, will either learn something (grow from it)… or, what else is one or the other brother going to do to the other one and will that story have an equally unsatisfactory resolution? That’s the hazard when there is no payoff — you can’t trust the writers and you can’t trust the characters.

    Comment by Sheri — February 10, 2013 @ 10:21 pm

  95. I guess what I’m saying is how can San get a redemption arc if the writers don’t think he needs to be redeemed? He can’t. How can Sam apologize or explain himself when the writers don’t think he has any reason to do those things?

    That’s what I mean by accepting the reality of the situation. Clearly, the writers don’t think Sam did anything wrong. They don’t think he misbehaved in any way. I have to believe that they would have better addressed Sam’s reasons for not searching and his odd behavior at Dean’s appearance earlier in the season IF they thought it was a problem. My point is they don’t see a problem.

    Carver & Co. just don’t see the show (or Sam) the way you do or the way I do. That’s why I think waiting for Sam to apologize or explain himself better is a waste of time. It ain’t gonna happen. It’s really not about me handwaving anything; it’s just what is! Episodes 1- 11 are pointless to me. I’m not happy with what Carver did to Sam but what can I do about it? I can complain on these boards all day long and nothing will change.

    Trust me – I’m not pleased but I do like enjoying the show. The last two episodes have been very enjoyable to me. I like that the brothers weren’t at odds. I like that they were the main characters in their show instead of recurring characters or guest stars. Since 7.04, I’ve been very disappointed in Supernatural. These are the first two episodes I really liked. Sadly, I’m just happy the show feels like Supernatural again. I hope that feeling lasts for the remainder of the season but you never know. I have to appreciate the good episodes when I get them. They are few and far btw these days!

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 10, 2013 @ 10:33 pm

  96. It’s starting to look to me like Jeremy Carver had some sort of plan, although we’ll never know what it was, but none of it worked, the majority of fans reacted to everything negatively,so he switched gears. Hence the new direction we’re seeing now. It looks like a do over. But they should have started the season off this way
    We’re not gonna get an explanation for Sam’s behavior any more than we’re gonna see what really happened to Dean in Purgatory. Carver realized he messed up those stories so instead of fixing them, he’s chosen to just brush them off and move on so I guess we’ll all have to do the same.
    At least it’s starting to make a little more sense now why Heaven worked so hard to get Sam and Dean born. Brain and Brawn. Now of course Dean is smart and Sam is physically strong, but it would be hard to deny which brother is more suited to which role. So this is the task they were really destined for. But it makes all the vessel and Apocalypse stuff from season 4 and 5 seem pointless.

    Comment by roxi — February 10, 2013 @ 10:34 pm

  97. I think the point for me, Lisa1, is that handwaving Sam’s actions (by the show itself, not by you) is just as damaging to Sam’s character as the first half storyline. Look at what happened in S4-5–show never made Sam acknowledge or make amends for his part in the damage done to the brotherly bond, so to speak, and that fact was so damaging to Sam’s character in some fan circles he has never recovered. While it may be the same fans still disliking him now, why wouldn’t Sam fans want show to actually try to do things right this time? It certainly would be better for Sam if they did.

    The fact that Carver and the PTB don’t think Sam did anything wrong makes me question their idea of brotherhood in the first place, frankly. Why am I rooting for this relationship if it’s so one-sided? Fans may or may not be able to accept that Sam did nothing wrong, and I don’t think that it’s not accepting reality–it’s refusing to accept substandard writing, at least for me. For others it may be different, and that’s fine.

    I don’t have to accept that they addressed Sam’s behavior, because they didn’t. I’m not going to lie to myself or convince myself that salt’s really sugar just to let the PTB off the hook. Now, will I try to get past it because I want to enjoy the show? Certainly, but that doesn’t mean my issues with how the show decided to ‘resolve’ the conflicts all boils down to not accepting reality. I’m not sure it’s intended that way, but frankly that feels a bit condescending to say that not being able to let the writers off the hook for bad writing as quickly as others can is fans not accepting reality.

    I think we can all appreciate good episodes at the same time that we desire more consistent writing and characterization, can’t we?

    Comment by yeah — February 10, 2013 @ 10:57 pm

  98. Roxi, I’m not sure why the MoL discovery cancels out the apocalypse/vessel story. Sam and Dean could have been raised as MoL and still fulfilled their roles as Lucifer and Michael just the same. The goal of getting Mary and John Winchester together wouldn’t have been impeded by the MoL. Mary could have still been targeted, and Sam, Dean, and John could have still been manipulated into the soul-selling, seal-breaking roles as MoL as well as hunters.

    Believe me, there’s been plenty of retconning going on lately, and I have no problem calling it out. I just don’t see how Sam and Dean being MoL instead of hunters would have saved them from their overall ‘destinies’ as vessels.

    Oh, and you’re probably right about the PTB scrapping the first half and starting over–they’ve done it before, and it wouldn’t surprise me if they’d done it again. Still, they did try to do some follow-up with the Soulless Sam storyline in S6 after they cut it off prematurely, so I don’t think they should be let off for not doing the same here. But if they refuse to clean up their mess, there’s nothing we can do to force them. Fans have to decide when and if they’re ready to let them off the hook, and some will be ready sooner than others.

    Comment by yeah — February 10, 2013 @ 11:05 pm

  99. @92, Lisa1, I agree, but let’s imagine they’d shown Sam’s grief and devastation in flashbacks but still had him not explaining himself to dean after his return. That way, It would have seem that somewhere along the falling in love with Amelia, Sam’s lost his brotherly love for dean, that he’s found a new replacement for him, that he doesn’t appreciate his return, now that he’s found something better.
    The writers could gain the audience’s trust really easy, but they don’t even bother, it’s like they’re TRYING to show us that the brother’s relationship is one sided. For example in 8*12 dean could have been the one that was kidnaped, and instead of him, they could have Sam telling Henry something like this: “a little while back my brother needed my help, but I let him down, now I have to do anything I can to save him. I can’t let him die again.” And he could have shown dean that he still cares for him with his actions, with struggling to do anything to save him. But instead they had it the other way around and dean’s admission to Henry seemed really out of the place and inappropriate regarding their situation, at least to me.
    I don’t need an explanation for Sam’s behaviors, I need a solution. We can’t always whitewash his mistakes. He has to man up and accept his neglectfulness. He has to understand that his mistakes have scarred dean for life. Sam knows dean better that anyone else. He knows that his running has hurt dean deeply but still he doesn’t bat an eye. And that’s why I can’t forgive him and just overlook the first nine episodes no matter what. I’m tired of Sam’s irresponsibility regarding dean. Great power brings great responsibility. Sam has this kind of power on dean. For god’s sake his actions in heaven (5*16) almost drove dean to the point of suicide. Dean was willing to die of the guilt of killing a monster in 7*4 because the said monster was Sam’s childhood friend for an afternoon ten years ago even if it literally had the blood of four people on its hand.
    Producing an explanation for Sam’s decision right now, is whitewashing him again. It would leave the impression that Sam’s feelings were really hurt and dean was a mean SOB for being unhappy about it. I don’t need that. I need Sam to convince dean that he still cares for him. And I don’t even need a big chick flick for that. He could make dean understand with his actions. Because actions always speak louder than words.

    Comment by bahar — February 10, 2013 @ 11:21 pm

  100. No, you misunderstand me.

    When I talk about “accepting reality,” I’m simply talking about accepting that the writers likely aren’t going to give you what you want. I’m mot saying you have to let the writers off the hook or even cpntinue watching the show. I keep reading posts from people wanting explanations for Sam’s less than thrilled reaction to Dean’s reappearance or an apology from him to Dean for not looking for Dean or an explanation for his OTT teaction to Benny. All signs indicate that there will be NO explanations fir any of this. Carver is likely going to drop the ball.

    I guess it really boils down to whether you like Sam or not. If you don’t like Dam, then Carver’s bad storytelling is yet more proof for why Sam is a horrible brother and person. If you like Sam as I do, you see it as bad writing that you won’t hold against Sam. That’s really it.

    A bad story is a bad story. Sam got stuck with an awful story this year that did his character no favors. I choose to see it as OOC. I don’t hate or dislike Sam because of this crappy story. Unfortunately, I can’t change the story. I wish I could.

    I want better writing too. I wish Sam’s post-Wall story had been better told. I wish there had been a point to Bobby’s uneasiness around Sam after his soul was returned or a point to last year’s Amy drama. I wish Dean’s PTSD story had been better. I wish there had been a point to Dean thinking he dropped Castiel when he didn’t. I wish Sam’s story with Amelia had been better. There’s a lot I wish or want for the show but I have no influence over what they choose to write. I was very close to dropping the show. When a show becomes unbearable to ms, I just quit watching. These last two episodes have renewed my interest.

    But I’m definitely not saying anyone should give Carver a pass. The first half of the season sucked. He should know that.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 10, 2013 @ 11:26 pm

  101. @Bahar – My main point is this: those who are waiting for Sam to apologize or to explain himself in order to forgive or like him again should prepare themselves to forever hate Sam. The writers don’t see Sam the way you do. You’re probably not going to get what you want in order to like Sam again or, for some, to start liking him.

    I really wanted Sam to apologize to Dean for strangling him and lying to him all year in S5. After FI aired, I realized that was the end of that story. I hD to accept that Sam would never make those apologies I wanted because Kripke didn’t think they were necessary. So, I just moved on with the show but then I like Sam. I always have. I know the Sam Winchester I’d watched for four years would have made those apologies. Why Kripke didn’t get that, I’ll never know.

    This is a similar situation, IMO.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 10, 2013 @ 11:38 pm

  102. 98- What I meant was that SPN went to great lengths to show the boys, particularly Dean, that no matter what choices they made, what sidesteps, all roads would still bring them where Heaven wanted them to be, i.e. being the angel vessels. And yet they DID avoid the plans of Heaven which we were told were set up a couple thousand years ago. So maybe, the vessel thing really wasn’t the plan after all, since if they had done that, they would have never met Henry falling out of their closet, and he would have never led them to their legacy of MOL. So maybe finding this info and finding out how to close the gates of Heaven and Hell is the real destiny.

    Comment by roxi — February 10, 2013 @ 11:55 pm

  103. Yeah, it’s quite apparent that explanations for Sam and also Dean’s time in Purgatory is not gonna be addressed, so either we let that bother us to the point of not watching anymore, or we just accept it.
    I choose the latter, and hope they will continue on this new, better direction. But if Dean gets no story, yet again, I will be disappointed.

    Comment by roxi — February 10, 2013 @ 11:59 pm

  104. @101,Lisa1,
    even in season 4&5 I wasn’t this disappointed with Sam, because after everything he did, I could tell that he still loved dean and was upset with himself for what he did. He thought he was sacrificing his relationship with dean for the greater good, for saving the world. I ‘m not saying he’s right, because he wasn’t. But still I could accept his decisions. Because real heroes are the ones who sacrifice what they treasure the most. That was respectable even if it was wrong. And in the 5*1 you could clearly see the regret in Sam’s eyes, and dean was the one who didn’t let Sam apologies.
    But this season whatever I do, however I look at it, I only see it as a selfish decision, I can’t find even an ounce of remorse in his actions and I can’t accept THAT.
    But I guess your right. We’re not going to get any explanations or apology or even a tiny bit of regret for that matter and I know I can’t enjoy the rest of season like I should, because of it. But hey it’s life; you can’t always get what you want.

    Comment by bahar — February 11, 2013 @ 12:05 am

  105. Lisa1, roxi, I so agree with both of you. The reason we’re so disappointed is BECAUSE we know that Sam is not like he’s been played the first half. That he really is not the jerk he’s been shown to be, and cares as much for Dean as Dean does for Sam, even with all the mistakes and whatevers. But we also know that we’re not going to get any satisfactory explanations, because apparently the writers don’t think they did any wrong really, only that perhaps the fans aren’t happy so they’ve changed they’re stance without any reasons for doing what they did.

    So I’m not waiting for any explanations, as they’re probably make me madder than I am now. I’ll take what I’m getting, and just be happy that things seem to be more or less back on track, with an unfractured Sam and Dean relationship.

    Of course, that doesn’t mean I’d wouldn’t LOVE a good explanation of some kind as to why Sam behaved the way he did. Wishful thinking though, considering the show and the writers, so I wont wait.

    Comment by Tammy — February 11, 2013 @ 1:13 am

  106. Tammy, Roxi and Lisa1 I am the complete opposite than you I’m afraid.

    I’m giving it one more episode to see if this supposed big talk gives me a reason not to think the writers have simply thrown the idea of bringing the conflict and personal growth for both the boys full circle out of the window.

    Because I don’t think I can sit through Dean’s only reason to function is Sam being happy again. Plus even if the writers don’t think that Sam has anything to apologise for they need to deal with the fact that they have set things up where some of their audience could argue that if they bring Benny back and he eats Sam it wouldn’t be completely unjustified.

    Comment by sid5 — February 11, 2013 @ 2:18 am

  107. @Sid5
    IMO, the writers know Sam was wrong but they think he atoned his unfair behaviors to dean with choosing him over Amelia. Just like they whitewashed all his mistakes in the first six seasons, in 7*4, by saying because of what he endured in hell he wasn’t guilty anymore.
    But unlike you, I can’t stop watching the damn thing! If it’s going down, I’m gonna go down with it too!

    Comment by bahar — February 11, 2013 @ 2:37 am

  108. @Bahar I am glad you can keep going but I don’t think I can.

    My problem is that this time Dean wasn’t the only individual we got to know that was physically hurt by a situation Sam set in motion this time. But this time because there is no manipulation and demon blood or soullessness excuses so the fallout has to be greater than Cas coldly reminding Sam of his mistakes.

    For me the way they pushed that text message compared to everything else that happened during that period, pushed Sam’s character into a zone that isn’t comfortable for a 30 year old. Because everyone was going on about that text being a dick move as it hurt Sam rather than the corpse on the floor.

    For me I need some self realisation not redemption but self realisation on Sam’s part and not have Dean go back to simply just waiving his hands and going ‘it’s Sam he’s happy so I’m okay’. Because without that I don’t think I can follow it anymore without that considering right now I have more respect for Crowley and Naomi than Sam and Dean.

    Comment by sid5 — February 11, 2013 @ 3:27 am

  109. @ sid5: I know, right. I can’t believe that almost every review I read of this past episode said that it was so good to see Dean happy again because Sam was happy, and I’m going, “That’s it? That’s Dean’s story for the season?” Obviously, the reviewers weren’t wrong, given the last toasting Sam scene where Dean acknowledges Sam finding his purpose for hunting again being a bunch of books.

    I, too, don’t think we’re going to get anything from Sam, especially any reasonable explanation for his behavior. That’s more than okay for me, because Sam doesn’t mean anything he says anyway if past show canon is to be believed (Point of No Return, “And I was wrong every time I ran”). But I do think we’ll get something on Sam’s part, probably in the form of a brief scene of him saving Dean from something and that will supposedly mean that he loves Dean.

    I also don’t expect to see a story for Dean again this season. I think he will remain the character that Sam and the support character stories revolve around. I call Dean the Maypole.

    I also think that what was done with the brothers and the dropped plots and sub-plots these first 10 episodes is what happens when writers write the story and stuff the leads in it, instead of concentrating on the characters and their development and have the stories revolve around that…the writers lose control of the story, but of the lead characters, too.

    I have no interest in the mytharc any more and, although the possibilities they have set up for future seasons are somewhat intriguing, I can’t trust any story to actually unfold in any logical or satisfying way.

    All that aside, I can still watch the show for JA’s action figure performances, which I enjoy, until such time as they turn Dean into a pathetic action hero again (S5, S6 and S7) or give him another love story. If either of those two things happen, there will be nothing left of interest for me and I’m out.

    Comment by Sheri — February 11, 2013 @ 4:58 am

  110. Great episode, loved Sam showing his smarts again and Dean was there being an idiot again. Felt like SPN again. I liked that Sam was doing something to make him happy and I could really give a shit about Dean’s approvle of Sam’s new path, talk about being a self important dick Dean.

    I hope next week brings Sam doing the trials and not just being the researcher while Dean gets all the action stuff. Sam getting more involved in the myth would be fair since theres no more Amelia and Dean still has all his BFF’S to deal with (Cas, Benny, Charlie) plus interacting with most of the gues stars and emo-ing all over the place.

    Also if Dean starts having a fling with that girl we see him kidding I hope Sam makes sure to give Dean the same ‘all in or all out’ ultimatum.

    Comment by tvmonkey — February 11, 2013 @ 5:06 am

  111. Post #110: Sam was an ASS through most of the season. He owes more than I can say to Dean. Imagine if the actions of this season were reversed: I bet Dean would still be a jerk to you. You should watch the show and try to see it for what it actually presents- and not what your rose-colored glasses show you.

    Comment by SL — February 11, 2013 @ 6:17 am

  112. Lisa1, I understand what you’re saying better now, I think. It’s not so much accepting reality as being able to forgive bad writing. I don’t really think it’s solely a matter of whether you like Sam or not, though that certainly does factor in. It’s also a matter of how well you can reject parts of canon that you don’t agree with. There have certainly been things they’ve done with Dean’s character that I didn’t like, but I had to come to a place where I could accept them.

    When you think about it, this whole first season was an example of the same. Fans were being asked to accept the reality/canon that Sam didn’t look for Dean. Sure, fans could have just said, hey, this is canon so I’ll roll with it, but many didn’t. They kept wanting there to be more and voiced that clearly on message boards. I guess the difference is that show canon was kinder to them because it did turn that page and make it all right not to have to worry about Sam’s actions anymore.

    If you’re on the other side of that fence, it isn’t working as easily. I don’t feel like it’s fair to dismiss the people who are unsatisfied as “Well, they don’t like Sam” or “Well, we just didn’t get Sam’s POV.” It means they aren’t satisified with the situation as is, and just like the Sam fans of the first half I don’t see anything wrong with voicing that.

    You’re right, of course, that eventually fans have to move on. If it takes away some of their enjoyment or causes residual hard feelings, then I don’t think it’s a matter of not liking Sam. I think it’s a matter of the writing not being satisfying to the individual and not being able to dismiss it as easily as others. I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with that, but it is their mountain to climb. Like bahar, I have no intention of not watching, but this is still sitting there for me and it’s hard to ignore right now. It will come in time, just as it has before. I’m not sure I’ll accept it, but I’ll make peace with it.

    Tvmonkey–well, that was a fine bitter little rant. Feel better now?

    Comment by yeah — February 11, 2013 @ 6:19 am

  113. @ tvmonkey #110: Love the name. It seems fitting.

    Sam showing his smarts again? Sam did simple research on a case — very simple research — and he knew what a library call number was. God, anybody who went to college had better know what a call number is.

    Dean’s approval? As I recall, Dean let Sam make his own choice as to whether to hunt or not hunt and I sure don’t remember him pressuring Sam to accept his MoLs legacy.

    None of us knows yet, but my bet is that you will be very happy as to which Winchester does the upcoming trials.

    As for Dean and his BFFs, I seem to recall that he cut his BFF vamp loose. I seem to recall there has not been much concern about his BFF Cas and what’s going on with him. Besides, Dean won’t be dealing with Cas’ Naomi story. Dean is merely a human, and that one is going to call for angel-on-angel action. Though, Dean may play backup to Cas in that story. I’d bet you right now that Sam will, too, so why would you be snarky about Cas?

    And Charlie? Charlie is a little sister Winchester and, being a little sister, that means she has two older brothers. Why would you be snarky about that? Besides, her episodes are written specifically for her, so no need to think that Dean is going to get more action than Sam out of that one.

    I don’t think Dean needs an all in or all out warning. Sam, on the other hand, with his propensity to run away and not being in any way trustworthy, may need a reminder or two of that before the season is over…especially if Amelia shows up again.

    Wanna bet that girl Dean is kissing is a crossroad demon?

    Wanna bet that this episode doesn’t even get to any of the trials yet?

    Comment by Sheri — February 11, 2013 @ 6:32 am

  114. @Tammy – You said it much more succinctly than me. I would love to know why Sam thought Dean was dead and why he decided to not investigate but in all likelihood, I’m not going to get what I want. For me, this happened to Sam in S4 and S5. We rarely get his perspective. It’s a chief complaint I have. This is worse than previous seasons because they decided to have Sam not look for Dean but I refuse to believe Carver’s OOC story says anything about Sam or the way he feels about Dean.

    ————————

    @Bahar – do you no longer believe Sam cares about Dean because of Carver’s story? Do you feel the story he’s told is in character for Sam? That’s the ultimate question.

    Some of us see the first half as very OOC for Sam. There was nothing about Carver’s story that felt genuine to me. I don’t believe Sam would do the things Carver said he did, and since, IMO, Carver didn’t bother to tell a story about Sam’s world imploding, the story feels very incomplete! But I sincerely don’t think the writers feel that way.

    I’m sure the writers feel they adequately explained Sam’s reasons in the premiere, and the Amelia sl was supposed to represent two people locked in grief over the loss of their loved ones but that failed on every level. It’s amazing to me how far off the mark Carver was with Sam and his crap story. Sam and Amelia didn’t appear to be in love and definitely didn’t seem to be locked in grief.

    Sam’s story failed on so many levels but Carver is happy with it. He thinks it was a success. That tells me we’re not going to get a better explanation. I also think if Sam was inclined to explain to Dean his feelings, he would have done so in the earlier episodes. Why wait to Episode 14 to have Sam tell Dean how devastated he was by Dean’s “death?” It doesn’t make sense.

    ————————-

    @sid5 – I understand. If the show is no longer enjoyable to you, then you should stop watching.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 11, 2013 @ 6:47 am

  115. Confused. Why can’t tvmonkey rant like the rest of us? There are huge posts slamming Sam and a couple of paragraphs about Dean? Really?

    People are saying that Sam was an ass the first part of the season. Fine. But I think Dean was right there with him in many ways. Also ( the horror) Dean didn’t apologize to Sam in Torn and Frayed. He wasn’t sorry for it because he felt it necessary to save Benny (not Sam, just saying.)

    “You want me to say I was wrong. Fine.” and then “but you (Sam) were completely at fault for not trusting me.” Number one rule for apologies, they don’t contain a “but.” Shades of Fallen Idol. Sam was also not sorry. Both of them were too pissed at each other. And I think they BOTH had the right to be angry.

    “Is that what we are? You save a vampire by making me believe that the woman I love might be dead?”

    “If you’d have just heard me out, if you’d have trusted me, all of this could’ve been avoided.”

    There it is.

    Later talking to Charlie, Dean does seem to feel bad about the text and causing Sam worry about Amelia. I don’t believe that Dean is solely at fault for everything, so that Charlie conversation was wonky to me. Not the first time this season.

    Sam? His position was that he couldn’t trust Benny as Dean was asking him to. I don’t think he is sorry for not trusting Benny. I don’t. Are there things from Citizen Fang that he should feel bad about? I think so, but we don’t know if he does because the subject has been dropped. For now at least. And I am sort of ok with that (kind of) IF we move along to more interesting stories without pissy brothers and clingy girlfriends. Please God.

    The boys are certainly much easier with each other since the LARP episode. Did they settle their issues? The writers aren’t telling us. Perhaps the first ten episodes were an alternate reality version of Supernatural that accidentally aired in place of the actual show in which of course Sam obviously looked for Dean. Oops. Now were are back to the real show.

    I for one look forward to the time when the forums are not full of post after post keeping score of how one brother wronged the other that week (or four seasons ago.) Yeah…that’s probably not going to happen. Oh well.

    Comment by inky — February 11, 2013 @ 7:14 am

  116. You’re right, inky. Tvmonkey has just as much right to rant as the rest of us, and I should not have been flippant about it.

    Comment by yeah — February 11, 2013 @ 7:30 am

  117. @ inky: I agree that Dean never ‘apologized’ to Sam. What Dean did was accept the fault for all the issues between them, and he did that in two episodes, followed by episodes showing that everything was fine with the brothers.

    I disagree with Sam’s position on Benny as shown. Sam said Dean was asking him to trust Benny, which he most definitely was not doing. Dean was asking that Sam, Martin, and he go hunt the Desmond, the rogue vamp. If there was no vamp, all three would have known that Benny was doing the killing. If there was a Desmond, as there was, all Sam and Martin would have known that Dean was right in trusting what Benny told him. That’s not asking Sam to trust Benny; that is asking that they not partake in a witch hunt (as Dean said earlier in the episode).

    DEAN
    You know there’s only one way to do that, right? And that is for you to sit on the sideline while I convince Sam and Martin to go after Desmond. They see you out there, they don’t care if you’re gonna be collecting for the March of Dimes. They are gonna slice first and ask questions later. You know that.

    BENNY
    You really think they’ll go for that?

    BENNY (on phone)
    What’d they say?

    DEAN (on phone)
    They didn’t go for it. They’re on their way to you. I’d get scarce.

    I don’t believe this is a matter so much of Sam trusting Dean, as it is a matter of Sam choosing Martin over Dean. There was no reason that Sam couldn’t have spared two hours or less verifying facts in a case, whether that case involved Benny or some other random character.

    Comment by Sheri — February 11, 2013 @ 8:37 am

  118. dang my fast fingers, that would be out of character writing OOC.

    Comment by inky — February 11, 2013 @ 9:45 am

  119. TVMONKEY, I’d like to know how Dean is the self important dick. He never does a damn thing to make himself happy, all his life has revolved around Sam.
    And if Dean has a romance, he won’t turn his back on Sam or the mission for it. Dean has never shown himself to stop caring about everything and everybody else just because he gets a girlfriend, like Sam did.
    And Dean DID show he was sorry and take responsibility for the text. Tell me, when does Sam own up for any of the stuff he did to Dean, which was worse than the text?
    Also, I’m not getting how Dean was an idiot in this episode. Just because he’s not into research the way Sam is doesn’t make him stupid.
    And why the hell should Sam get to be the one to do the trials, when he has already been placed front and center while Dean has had nothing but a supporting role? Sam is also the one it seems to be mainly involved with the MOL story. It’s DEAN’S turn to get a major story.

    Comment by roxi — February 11, 2013 @ 10:02 am

  120. Forgot this point. In The Girl Next Door, sam was totally asking Dean to trust Amy that Amy wasn’t going to kill again, having only killed this time to save her sick son. Dean, in that case was having none of it. How could Dean possibly trust Sam or anybody else that Amy was done? He couldn’t because Amy was responsible for her own choices. Dean decided that he couldn’t trust Amy the monster to keep her word to Sam, not that he couldn’t trust Sam who believed her.

    I feel a similar way about Benny. Dean believed him with no collaborating evidence (which didn’t come til later.) But how could Sam or Martin trust that BENNY was telling Dean the truth. They decided that they couldn’t and so they didn’t.

    feel the same

    Comment by inky — February 11, 2013 @ 10:07 am

  121. I think the difference between Amy and Benny as the episode set it up is that we knew without a doubt and for a fact that Amy was a murderer. She admitted it, she wasn’t particularly remorseful, and while she said she wouldn’t kill again, Sam had no reason to believe her. He spent one afternoon with her 15+ years ago. Why did he trust her? Amy was responsible for her own crimes, and she paid for them. That said, Dean was wrong to go behind Sam’s back, but there was no reason to trust or believe in her because she was an admitted murderer.

    By contrast, Benny was someone Dean had spent a year with, fighting side by side. He (and we as an audience, in my opinion) had more reason to trust his judgment of Benny because they knew each other much better than Amy and Sam did. Also, Benny wasn’t an admitted murderer asking for a break–he was proclaiming innocence with a plausible explanation for the crimes. So to me, that is a large enough difference to allow for two or three hours of investigation into the possibility of another vampire.

    So long story short, I think show tried way too hard with their Amy-Benny parallels, and the information didn’t match up enough to make it work. Benny’s relationship with Dean had much more depth and history than Amy’s with Sam, so there was more reason to trust Dean’s instincts than Sam’s. Plus, a murderer with a signed confession is not the same as a defendant with an innocent plea, and their trials should not resemble each other. So for me, that is the difference. Mileage may vary, as always.

    Comment by yeah — February 11, 2013 @ 10:18 am

  122. I think Dean’s relationship with Benny is enough for the audience and Dean of course to have reasonable doubt about Benny. Can we ask Sam and Martin to have that same feeling? I don’t know. There were bodies plural by the time that Dean came back from his chat with Benny. To which btw Dean brought a machete–total trust? not so much. And to be fair, it did look hinky and so do you go do what hunters do or do you risk another body showing up because Benny says their is another vampire?

    I guess I am trying to get in their heads because I see both view points. Dean is saying trust me this guy didn’t do it and Sam is saying I can’t trust Benny enough to know for sure he told you the truth.

    Dean turned out to be right about Benny and Sam and Martin turned out to be fooled by circumstantial evidence. BUT in that moment, with human lives at risk and all available evidence pointing to Benny, was it wrong for Sam and Martin to go after Benny? The easy answer is yes because it turns out they were wrong and they left Dean on the floor in cuffs but when I start thinking about it, I start to wonder…stupid brain.

    Anyway, my whole point at the beginning of my first post on this topic was that in Dean’s mind, he is asking Sam to trust him and in Sam’s mind, Dean is asking Sam to trust Benny. Hence the conflict and lack of understanding between the two. True, the circumstances are not exact but I still find parallels between this situation and the Amy situation.

    Comment by inky — February 11, 2013 @ 11:06 am

  123. Actually, there are three big differences between Amy and Benny, in addition to Benny being a brother-in-arms that had proven his trustworthiness to Dean (particularly in saving Cas after several episodes of thinking Dean was wrong to insist that Cas be saved:

    1. Amy had blood literally dripping from her hands when Sam was talking to her. Benny had killed no one, and explained to Dean why he was washing blood off his hands. She had “dropped three bodies” already and was in the process of dropping another one, all in the same week.

    The Winchester rule is that if monsters are killing people, they kill them. If they haven’t hurt a human, they let them go.

    2. Sam did, in fact, specifically ask Dean to trust him, not Amy:

    SAM
    She’s done. Her friggin’ kid was dying, Dean. Put you or me in her position, we’d probably do the same thing. Look, you don’t trust her. Fine. Trust me. Dean, please.

    Dean asked that Sam and Martin go with him to further investigate the case…what any hunter “worth his salt” should have been up for.

    3. Sam had been suffering psychotic breaks since the beginning of the season and had had a mental break the afternoon he dumped Dean, incapacitated in a full leg cast and w/o a car, when he realized that the killer was his 5-minute girlfriend from 15+ years ago, as well as ignoring both Dean and Bobby’s phone calls. Dean had every reason to suspect Sam’s judgment on Amy. Yes, he lied to Sam about Amy, because of he couldn’t trust Sam’s mental balance in anything at that point.

    IMO, the writers using Amy as a comparison to Benny was to make it a clear example that Sam was being irrational about Benny.

    Comment by Sheri — February 11, 2013 @ 11:09 am

  124. I can agree with the idea that Martin had no reason to trust Dean’s word about Benny. We have no reason to think that Martin is or was really that close to Sam or Dean, and as a hunter anxious to get back in the game and prove himself I can definitely see where he wouldn’t want his judgment questioned. He did the observing, he discovered the body, and he wants to take out the monster to show he’s ready to hunt again. So his doubt makes sense.

    Sam’s is a little murkier to me. Dean did in fact agree to go after Benny, and he took a machete with him to talk to Benny. So it seems like Sam could recognize that Dean did go into this with clear eyes, and therefore there’s a chance that his instincts are correct. Sam, out of anyone, has to know that Dean does generally have good instincts when it comes to hunting. Sam has in the past asked for Dean to put his trust and faith in him, as proof that they have an equal partnership, So why can’t he extend the same to Dean? If this is the way Sam wants to be treated, why doesn’t he treat Dean the same trust?

    But let’s say he’s convinced that Dean has blinders on, which is not an unreasonable assumption. Sam is still aware of the possibility of abstaining vampires who live on animal blood, so the idea that Benny could be telling the truth is an argument if the circumstances were different and Benny had spoken to him first. The fact that Sam is unwilling to give a monster (and his brother) the benefit of the doubt is out of character for him. Still, Sam doesn’t have to take Benny or Dean’s word for it—he could investigate the situation to know for sure that he’s killing the right monster. Again, the fact that he was unwilling to do that seems unlike Sam, and we didn’t really have a reason for that, except that Sam was ready to hate/kill Benny from the first moment he found out about his existence, which casts doubt on his motivations the way Dean’s prior relationship casts doubt on his. It also casts doubt on his motives being purely about saving others, because he seemed to be operating on a lot of personal anger here.

    I agree that Sam didn’t see this as not trusting Dean, just as not trusting Benny. I do wonder what Sam thought would happen between Dean and he after he killed the one friend who saved Dean from purgatory. I further agree that Dean very much saw it as Sam not trusting him. They probably both have points there, and that is where the conflict comes into play. Unfortunately, we will never explore any of these issues, because Dean is wrong and apologized and Sam gives no ground and no apology and now everything is fine. That’s a shame.

    I still don’t really see the parallels between Benny and Amy working because the circumstances were too different, but it’s a matter of perspective and I can agree to disagree.

    Comment by yeah — February 11, 2013 @ 11:25 am

  125. Also, Dean did NOT give Sam an ultimatum. He was all but pushing Sam to leave hunting and go back to Amelia. He made it clear he was fine with whatever Sam chose, which made me hate Charlie’s comment all the more.
    All Dean said was that whatever Sam chose, he had to commit to it. Dean know from experience that it’s nearly impossible to have a home and a girlfriend on one side and still try to be a hunter. That wasn’t an ultimatum. That was advice.

    Comment by roxi — February 11, 2013 @ 5:29 pm

  126. And it was because both Lisa and Amelia were not in the hunting life. If either of them were, perhaps it could have been possible to maintain those relationships.

    Comment by roxi — February 11, 2013 @ 5:31 pm

  127. IMO, neither Dean nor Sam have a list of hurts, real and imagined, petty and great, which must be checked off by apologies while others require resolution by dialogue sessions of various lengths. Neither claims sufficient divinity to grant or give redemption. They are simply two working class guys trying to get some satisfaction out of life in extraordinary circumstances not of their own making. The only thread of humanity they can hold on to consistently is that they have a brother, and even that sometimes is unpleasant. They are trying to make that brotherhood work, and both know that storing up apologies to demand, old hurts to be voiced, old disagreements to be discussed will only make keeping the brotherhood bond more difficult. They’ve been through hell literally. They know when something is truly horrible, and they know most of their past conflicts are petty in comparison to what they have seen. They can move on from their own issues rather easily.
    To me at least, this is not a series about how Dean is feeling–or should feel, or which old hurts he should dredge up and demand be addressed. It is not the Emotional Life of Dean Winchester Showcase (Sera got let go!). The Dean in the series has moved on from his latest disagreement with his brother. Dean’s perfectly fine stretched out in great new digs and enjoying a drink. He is ready to get on with the series about Dean and Sam fighting evil. Dean loves his brother. No amount of fan lists of real and imagined dastardly Sam-ills against Dean will ever change Dean’s mind. Dean seems to realize that Sam’s role in life is not to make him happy; he understands that. Dean seems to understand that Sam is not his spouse. Sam is his brother and hunting partner.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 11, 2013 @ 5:53 pm

  128. Yes, but Casey, when will the show tell us that Dean’s role in life isn’t only to make Sam happy/look out for him? It should go both ways.

    Comment by roxi — February 11, 2013 @ 5:58 pm

  129. @ CaseyT: It’s not about what Dean thinks, feels, says, or doesn’t do. It’s about what the fans think the showrunner/writers are giving us. If they present a plot, then they should damned well bring it to some sort of resolution. If that resolution is viewed as phoney or against everything SHOWN about it, then this fan doesn’t believe the writers are being honest. If what is SAID (told to us) does not fit what was SHOWN, then the writers aren’t being honest in their storytelling.

    And what happens when the writers are not being honest? The characters in the story suffer through lack of significant characterization because of it, and the story suffers for lack of cohesion and continuity. That’s what has happened for the last four years and the writers are being called out on it.

    We fans of the show have been incredibly loyal to the point of ensuring all of TPTB and both actors have incredible careers. It is us who have kept this show on the air, despite tremendous odds. The very least the writers can do in return is give us their best effort, which is to tell a honest story and wrap up plots that were presented. That’s their job and they get paid damned well for it. SG wasn’t up to the job, and she is out the door. Carver should be held to no less of a standard.

    Comment by Sheri — February 11, 2013 @ 6:28 pm

  130. I’d like to say you’re right, CaseyT, but I think this season alone has shown the brothers are not nearly as forgive and forgive as you’re indicating. In my opinion, Dean believed that he had forgiven Sam all of their past hurts, but 8.6 proved those issues aren’t as quashed as he or you believed. For his part, Sam may have said Dean did the right thing re: Amy last season, but he certainly pulled that grudge out immediately after learning about Benny. So, no, it’s not just fans that have long memories. At this point, show has had the boys repeatedly try to bury their issues, and nothing has bee fixed between them for a long while. So saying they’re just fine doing the same thing that hasn’t worked in the past doesn’t make any sense to me.

    I think it’s ignoring a lot of Dean’s complex characterization to say as long as Dean has new digs and a drink he’s fine. Yes, Dean takes pleasure in the small things, but that’s not all there is to him. No, it’s not Sam’s job to make him happy, but as his brother he should want Dean to be happy. As his partner, Sam has to be willing to give and take and take responsibility for keeping the partnership functional. The same applies to Dean, of course. Dean has to treat Sam as an equal, and Sam has to grow past his teenage rebel schtick. They need to deal with their issues, and having Dean admit fault and Sam refuse to doesn’t make it. Loving each other doesn’t make them good partners, and never dealing with their issues means we’re going to end up right back where we started from. Again. Personally, I’d rather not go around this road again.

    But if show would like to give Dean a role beyond being Sam’s satellite, as he seems to be once again, I would be thrilled.

    Comment by yeah — February 11, 2013 @ 6:39 pm

  131. Ok. I do agree I was a little harsh. That was intentional. But, sometimes I think some people view Dean and Sam as a devoted, loving, committed couple who have pledged themselves to be one until death do us part, and being concerned and sensitive to your committed partner’s emotional well being is an essential part of such a committed couple arrangement. Dean and Sam are not a committed couple. They are brothers. Two guys trying to stay connected. They are not a married couple.
    Neither has ever been depicted as men who have long discussions about issues during which they admit to each other errors, exchange apologies, and resolve differences through rational dialogue. There are such men I suspect, but these two have been depicted as more IMO typical male figures who don’t easily admit errors and are reticent to discuss emotional feelings with other men-even their brother. They do go through that process but it is acted out not discussed, and if discussed, only with a brief remark.
    Dean dumped Benny; he didn’t go to Sam and say “I dropped Benny so let’s hug and make-up.” Sam dumped Amelia. He didn’t feel a need to say, “I dumped Amelia to recommit to hunting; I’m sorry I chose her over you and hunting, that was a mistake, I was a fool. Please forgive me. Let’s hug.” Sam’s action spoke those sentiments. The two guys sat down together and had a drink clearly feeling more comfortable with each other. Issues had been faced, acted on, and dealt with. OK, that is not a nuanced, verbalized resolution of conflict, but it is their way, and I think it is a very realistic depiction of how many men resolve issues. What they do is as important as what they say. Often, more important.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 11, 2013 @ 8:24 pm

  132. I’ll agree that Dean and Sam are not a married couple, though I don’t know who is viewing them as such. At the same time, being sensitive to someone’s well-being is not something that is restricted to married/committed couples, either, at least not in my experience. You can and should be concerned about your brother/sister/friend’s emotional well-being if your relationship is considered a close one. Working with a partner or even a small group of people requires social awareness and people skills, and if someone in your work team is furious with you it does usually have to be addressed if it’s affecting your work. So I’m afraid I still don’t understand why treating your partner with respect and/or why being sensitive to your close family member’s need is somehow a completely outlandish thing to expect.

    I do agree that neither Sam nor Dean has been depicted as a man prone to long discussions. They have, however, shown themselves capable of rational dialogue leading to resolution, or at least common ground before, and I see no reason why they cannot demonstrate that behavior again. I don’t think most people are asking for long walks on the beach or hair-braiding. Dean is fully capable of saying what I did was wrong, sorry. Sam has been able to acknowledge wrong actions (just usually not the mistakes he makes in dealing with Dean). Neither one has really done much of that this season, though, and what little has been done has pretty much been on Dean’s part. They could act out their emotions, but I don’t see where they’ve done a lot of that, either. And again, the not talking about it, not admitting errors, and shoving it down clearly hasn’t worked, or else Sam and Dean wouldn’t be pulling their past grievances out their back pockets in fights like they both have this season. So advocating the same approach just means we’re going to end up with the same issues again, because they don’t resolve them. We know that for a fact.

    Which brings us to now, when the PTB have decided that everything is fine, so just sweep it under the rug. Who’s to say it’s going to stay that way? I’ll bet it doesn’t, as Bob Singer has already stated that Benny will probably be back and Amelia might be. When/if they reappear, all of this is going to pop right back up. So, no, the issues haven’t been dealt with. They’ve been shoved aside so the story can continue because the PTB is done with the angst for a while. But it’s a pretty good bet to say it’s all going to come back, don’t you think? Then we’re back to square one.

    As for your sample dialogue for 8.11, I think it’s pretty hyperbolic and it feels a bit mocking, as if all fans who want Dean and Sam not to just ignore their issues are looking for a soap opera. There’s a lot of room between “I dumped Amelia, let’s hug” and saying nothing. This is a writing problem, because you seem to indicate that Sam dropping Amelia was him apologizing for choosing her and normal over hunting, and I never got any such thing from Sam. Sam was ready to commit himself back to the hunt because he was reminded (again) that ending Crowley and the demon threat was important and Amelia was pretty much demanding he commit to normal right now. Nothing Sam said gave any indication that Dean factored into his decision. Now, I can guess that it did, but the writers were not capable of writing any level of dialogue to convey that? It’s a failure on their part, because they are able to give the impression with very few words that Dean understood his actions were wrong re: the text and that he was happy Sam was finding his place with the MoL. By leaving Sam’s choices up for interpretation as they’ve done and not accept any responsibility for the trouble between them as Dean has done, they do him no favors. I’m not sure why any Sam fan would want to give them a pass on that, but that’s me.

    I agree that what Sam and Dean do is important, just as important as what they say. But so far what they’ve done hasn’t fixed the problems of the first part of the season, at least for me. There’s an awful lot of room between writing no dialogue and writing soap dialogue, and it does the writers a disservice to pretend they aren’t capable of resolving storylines better than what they’ve done. As always, mileage varies.

    Comment by yeah — February 11, 2013 @ 9:17 pm

  133. Which is not to say it isn’t nice to see the last few episodes where Dean and Sam seem to be on the same page and functioning as brothers/partners again It is. But it’s like looking at a sandcastle built at low tide. You know the foundation is bad and it’s only a matter of time before it comes down, so you have to ask why it wasn’t built better to begin with.

    Comment by yeah — February 11, 2013 @ 9:32 pm

  134. I’d like to know if Sam forgives his brother for what he said under the spell ‘Benny’s a better brother that you’ve ever been’. And Dean implied it again when they were arguing about Benny.

    Dean did push earlier this season for Sam to take up hunting again. He wasn’t very encouraging about Amelia and laid a guilt trip over Kevin. I think at the back of his mind, Sam still remembers the pressure.

    But I was pleased to see Dean cut ties with Benny and Sam to let Amelia go. Now the story can move on.

    Comment by josephineschmoe — February 12, 2013 @ 2:17 am

  135. @ CaseyT and yeah: I think what you’re both talking about or meaning, is for the writers to put together a script that trusts the actors to convey the intent through their performances. I remember how well that used to be done in the early seasons of the show (the Kim Manner days of the show).

    We have two incredible actors that have long ago taken these two characters and made them their own. The actors are comfortable and well-seasoned in their two characters, know them better than the writers and the directors, and they should be working with scripts that trust them to deliver the story. We don’t have to be told the story through long, emotional monologuing. I think that’s why most fans in general love the Ben Edlund scripted episodes — he puts it all together and let’s the actors act, without knocking us over the head with heavy anvils and syrupy, soapy dialogue that doesn’t fit these two blue-collared tough guys.

    I’m with you, Casey, about not wanting to see heavy, emoting dialogue or big long discussions about hurt feelings. That is totally un-necessary and, quite frankly, boring.

    I do think the two actors are doing their part, but this newer batch of writers aren’t delivering on their end. If they were, we wouldn’t all have suffered whiplash from the lack of continuity, which was especially prevalent during S7 and it’s still going on.

    Examples, of course, are exactly what we have been talking about — why were the first ten episodes even there — it’s a new beginning, let’s move on. Those types of comments come from an unsatisfactory resolution to any of the plot points that were brought up?

    Why have dramatic angel-proofing of Rufus’ cabin and the brothers questioning what’s going on with Cas, and then go off to a Ren Fair, have a good time, and not one mention of Cas (which, you will notice, Edlund did cover in a couple of lines of dialogue) and then jump into introducing a huge new mytharc?

    Why have such a dramatic episode like Citizen Fang, and then have one brother say, “I was wrong,” and drop all the rest of the issues that were brought up in two raging, angry scenes (Dean’s possession and Sam’s I-may-be-the-one-to-kill-him).

    What purpose did the Samelia story have? Was there any character growth for Sam in that?

    Why was Benny introduced into the series? What purpose did he serve? What character growth did Dean get out of that?

    What some of us are complaining about; though it be discussed in terms of the characters because that’s the vehicles the story is delivered through, all boils down to the writing.

    But, yes, I’m right there with you on no big, long, emotional, one perfect tear I love you and I’m so sorry scenes. Please. Just no.

    Comment by Sheri — February 12, 2013 @ 3:30 am

  136. 134- The reason he wasn’t encouraging was because Sam left him for dead, all because he was with this woman. I can well understand why he’d be resentful of her.
    And it was more about Sam abandoning Kevin, than giving up hunting per se.
    In the end it doesn’t matter, because Dean DID own up to his mistakes, apologized, and was more than ready to let Sam go. Sam on the other hand, hasn’t owned to up his mistakes. But at this point I’m ready to accept that he’s not going to and just move on.

    Comment by roxi — February 12, 2013 @ 5:31 am

  137. This may ruffle feathers but why does Sam need to apologize to Dean for the events of CF? The only person owes an apology is poor dead Martin, and that’s for abandoning him in the woods. That was wrong.

    Sam did not knock out Dean. Sam was listening to Dean and trying to make his case for killing Benny when Martin knocked put Dean. Yes, Sam left Dean handcuffed, and then he went off to do what he felt needed to be done. Dean did a similar thing in “Croatoan.” He pulled Sam into that room and then locked Sam inside so he could kill that kid. Dean never apologized to Sam, and I didn’t expect or need him to. Sam did what Dean has done many times – follow his instincts.

    Is Sam apologizing for not believing Dean about Benny? Is Sam not permitted to have his own thoughts about Benny? I never had a problem with Dean not trusting Sam in S4 w/r/t Ruby so I don’t have a problem with Sam in this situation. My problem with Sam and Benny is Sam’s problem with Benny hasn’t been fully explained. Given his own history, Sam should be fine with Benny but that’s not the story they wanted to tell. Plus, Sam still thinks Benny killed some people so why would he apologize?

    Sam also, IMO, doesn’t owe Dean any apologies for choosing normal during his year. Sam has every right to give up hunting if he wants. If anything, Sam owes Kevin an apology for abandoning him. As Dean pointed out, Kevin was Sam’s responsibility, and Sam bailed on him. That was inexcusable.

    Now, that brings us to Dean. I don’t know

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 12, 2013 @ 5:45 am

  138. Oops I hit send. . .

    According to the story Carver has spun, I wouldn’t say Sam owes Dean an apology for not looking for him. It’s more like Sam owes Dean a better explanation as to why he thought Dean was dead and why he decided to not investigate further. If Sam truly thought Dean was dead then I feel an apology would be weird. “Sorry, I was mistaken.” “Sorry, I was an idiot!”

    I don’t know. I need more on why Sam reached the conclusion he did but Zi doubt I’m going to get that from these writers.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 12, 2013 @ 6:17 am

  139. Agreed, Sheri, that the issue at the heart of the entire discussion is the writing. I further agree that long, soap opera, pour out your feelings discussions aren’t necessary, but maintain that there’s a lot of room between soap opera dialogue and no dialogue. In the past, show has been able to convey resolutions to the boys’ conflicts with minimal discussion but with the Js carrying the load and putting the emotion into the dialogue. But they can’t do that when the dialogue just plain is not there. Instead of giving a resolution, the writers have decided to ignore the first ten episodes, rendering them at this point a waste of time. Some people find it easier to ignore the mess the writers made and didn’t clean up than others, and that’s great. But I still don’t think it does the show or the characters any favors.

    Comment by yeah — February 12, 2013 @ 7:17 am

  140. @yeah
    i don’t think the writers are ignoring the problems of the first 9 episodes. they simply don’t think there IS a problem. they think they resolved everything with the brothers choosing each other in 8.10

    Comment by bahar — February 12, 2013 @ 7:38 am

  141. @bahar
    You’re probably right in saying that the PTB don’t recognize that are any problems in how they’ve chosen to deal with the issues dredged up in the first 9 episodes. Which doesn’t say much good for them, in my opinion–how do you write an episode in 8.6 showing that slapping band-aids on problems doesn’t make them go away and then use precisely that strategy to fix the problems between them 4 episodes later? But it is what it is. I have a hard time giving them a pass on bad writing and terrible story resolution, but if they don’t go back and fix it, then they don’t. I’m going to keep watching, but it does color my perception of the season, the characters, and the writers. Which, of course, means nothing to them, but that’s why we have message boards, I suppose–to vent and discuss the good, the bad, and the ugly. Show certainly possesses all three.

    Comment by yeah — February 12, 2013 @ 8:07 am

  142. @ bahar: I think you are right, too, in that the showrunner/writers don’t think there is a problem, which makes me wonder how they managed to get this far in their careers. And I, too, don’t think they will try to fix things.

    @ yeah: I think you, CaseyT and I are in agreement that there is distance between no dialogue and extreme angst/girly discussion of feelings. What I was trying to point out was that in the early seasons, the show managed to achieve that and it didn’t come from people like Garth marriage counseling or Charlie offering confirmation of dickish dialogue.

    @ Lisa1: It’s not so much of an apology that is needed — it’s Sam owning up to his mistakes and bad behavior.

    I would say, though, that if you thought Sam was going off and doing what his instincts told him to do, then I would say that Sam is a pi** poor hunter, because all of his instincts were 100% wrong — and he certainly didn’t want to take the couple of hours out of his day to confirm or disprove them.

    Perhaps they would have been better if he had taken note of Martin viciously stabbing an ice cube tray with a fork. That really isn’t normal behavior. Dean managed to know immediately upon meeting Martin that he wasn’t right in the head:

    DEAN
    Martin, you sure you’re running on a full charge?

    Sam in no way ever acknowledged that Martin was more than a little unstable, and he still ditched him in the vamp invested forest.

    Comment by Sheri — February 12, 2013 @ 8:52 am

  143. @yeah
    Sam’s fans are quite happy right now. Sam got the new story. Sam had dean admitting everything was his fault; their only complaint is that they’re afraid Sam might end up in the library while dean does all the actions and we all know that’s not the case.
    I just don’t understand how the writers can ignore dean’s fans like this. They don’t even throw a tiny bone our way. Most of dean’s fans I know are unhappy right now even though the last few episodes were really good.

    Comment by bahar — February 12, 2013 @ 9:02 am

  144. i bet you Sam’s the one who’s going to do the trials and we’re going to have another season of dean being just a pretty face.

    Comment by bahar — February 12, 2013 @ 9:40 am

  145. I believe that the reason there seems to be a lot of hanging plot lines is they have yet to be connected which will come as they delve into naomi and the tablet arc. I still maintain faith it will all tie in together Sams ooc behavior dean and benny Samelia it all ties to naomi and I think the angel tablet could be in the bat cave.

    Comment by AW — February 12, 2013 @ 10:56 am

  146. @ bahar: I don’t know of any Dean fans that are happy. They feel like they were once again tricked into thinking Dean had a Purgatory story, which he didn’t, and then they thought he would get to be the Campbell side of the MoLs story, the hunter side. We don’t know for sure yet if that really is going to Sam, but the spoilers seem to indicate that: nose bleeds and TB symptoms and trying to keep it a secret from the other brother (per JP and Zap2It).

    Many Dean fans bailed on the show in S6 and S7, and I’ve read several posters who are saying they will watch this episode and if Sam gets the trials, they’re bailing. (Of course, sometimes they say that and don’t actually do that.)

    From TVByTheNumbers for last week:

    Arrow
    1.0/3
    2.96

    Supernatural
    1.0/3
    2.29

    Basically, after half a season, Arrow is getting the same demo numbers as SPN, which has been on the air eight years. Viewership for SPN is up 15% overall from last year and 18% in the coveted 18-49 year demo. I think it’s safe to say that this increase is probably from the CW younger crowd and from TNT running prior episodes.

    The sad thing is, with these good numbers for SPN, the writers pretty much could go really big with new interesting things, instead of relying on the tired Sam is the empathetic reluctant hero and Dean is his cape bearer smuck.

    I know I’m not a bit interested in another ‘what’s wrong with Sam (nosebleeds/coughing) heroically stumbling through the trials while Dean sits on the ground. But, as long as Dean is an action figure and doesn’t get hooked up in another love story, I’ll stick with the show for a while. It’s pretty bad to almost dread, rather than be excited for each new episode that airs, though, so I can’t say I’d blame anyone for moving on.

    Comment by Sheri — February 12, 2013 @ 11:00 am

  147. Lisa, in Croatoan, it was believed that Sam had the demon virus. That’s the only reason Dean tied him up. And I’m sorry, but Martin wouldn’t have even been there to behave the way he did had Sam not went behind Dean’s back and sent him after Benny. A blind man could have seen how unstable Martin still was.
    And why doesn’t Sam have to apologize for not giving a damn about his brother? Dean’s been beaten over the head about this text, but Sam doesn’t have to feel bad for just leaving him for dead?
    And again, I didn’t see anybody fault Sam for wanting a normal life. The complaints were because not only did he not even bother to try to figure out what happened to Dean, but when he did find him, his response was lukewarm as hell, and also his attitude was resentful that Dean was even back in his life. And he wasn’t even grateful that Benny help Dean survive.
    I know you’re gonna probably accuse me of hating Sam again, but like I said, I don’t. I just don’t understand how Dean gets blamed for everything on Earth but Sam can treat Dean any way he chooses and it’s hunky dory.

    Comment by roxi — February 12, 2013 @ 11:16 am

  148. Roxi – in Croatoan, Dean locked Sam in the room because he wanted to kill that boy he believed had the virus. Sam didn’t want to kill the boy. They disagreed on the appropriate course of action so Dean locked Sam in a room so he could go kill the boy without Sam interfering. That is essentially the same thing Sam did to Dean in a CF.

    Do you really think Sam would say he didn’t give a damn about Dean? If you read my post carefully, you’d see I said “with the reason they’ve given Sam,” I don’t think it would make sense for him to apologize to Dean for not looking for him.

    Sam told Dean he thought Dean had died. That’s the story. I’m not saying it makes any sense but that’s the story they’ve given Sam. At no point has Sam ever indicated that he just didn’t feel like looking for Dean. I’m no fan of the story as I’ve made abundantly clear but I’m not going to just make up stuff. What Sam said and how it appeared to many of us are two separate things. Sam said he thought Dean was dead. How does he apologize for being wrong about that, for misinterpreting the situation without it sounding stupI’d? That’s why I think Sam needs to explain to Dean how he reached his conclusion. It makes no sense so they should have Sam talk about his reasons for thinking Dean died. They won’t but they should!

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 12, 2013 @ 11:55 am

  149. @sheri
    If Sam gets the trial story too, I won’t stop watching it. I’ll just wait till the season final and watch all the remaining episodes together. At least that way I wouldn’t be tormenting myself like this.
    Last year I watched the show till that awful Becky episode and I just stopped. After the season finale, watched the rest of it and it was awful. I’m glad I didn’t watch it week to week.
    Carver’s written a lot of my favorite episodes in earlier seasons and I thought this year would be different. Wishful thinking.

    Comment by bahar — February 12, 2013 @ 12:04 pm

  150. @lisa,
    In Croatoan, again, dean was right and Sam was wrong. That boy was possessed by a demon. And in the end dean didn’t kill the boy. But in 8.9, if dean hadn’t sent Sam the message he would get himself or benny killed.
    You’re basically saying we and dean should forgive Sam, because he was wrong. He was wrong that dean was dead so there’s no problem if he didn’t look for dean. He was wrong that benny was the killer so if he’d killed benny there would be no problem because he thought benny was the killer. Since when do we do that?
    And again martin was the one who knocked dean out. But Sam didn’t even bat an eye and IMO it equals with not having dean’s back and that’s not forgivable in my book. When soulless Sam did that, I said well he doesn’t have a soul. What am I goanna say now?

    Comment by bahar — February 12, 2013 @ 12:19 pm

  151. @sheri
    Kevin had a nose bleed in one of the pictures, i wouldn’t be surprised if HE took the tests.

    Comment by bahar — February 12, 2013 @ 12:37 pm

  152. Yeah . . . I know Dean was right. That wasn’t my point. My point is both brothers have isolated or trapped the other before so they can proceed w/a plan w/o that brother’s interference. It doesn’t matter who was right or who was wrong. They have both done the same thing to the other, and neither has apologized to the the other.

    And I’m not saying you or Dean have to do anything. I’m saying it makes no sense TO ME for Sam to apologize for believing Dean died. I think it makes more sense for Sam to talk to Dean about why he reached that conclusion in the first place. I have no problem w/Sam thinking Dean was dead; it’s just that nothing Carver presented should have led Sam to that errorenous conclusion. That’s the problem w/the story. Why did Sam think Dean died? That’s the part that makes no sense.

    He could apologize for being wrong about thinking Dean was dead. If my sister moved on w/her life after she thought I died, I wouldn’t be upset w/her. Now, would I be upset learning that my sister didn’t even bother to investigate my disappearance? HECK YES!!!

    But that’s NOT the story they’ve told. They went the “Sam thinks Dean died” route. The larger issue, FOR ME, is why Sam didn’t investigate his thoughts a bit more, but that’s just me.

    Sam most certainly did bat an eye when Martin hit Dean. He didn’t chuckle or slap Martin on the back! IIRC, he questioned Martin on what he did.

    And you can say whatever you choose about Sam.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 12, 2013 @ 1:27 pm

  153. @lisa
    i disagree with you on this one. the whole point is doing the right thing. It’s the purpose of the show.
    And in Croatoan Sam acted like he didn’t trust dean, and that’s why dean locked Sam up. Again in citizen fang Sam didn’t trust dean and that’s why he tied dean up. Sam never trusts dean when it really matters. Dean’s like that too, winchesters…!
    Other than that i agree with you. i never said Sam should apologies to dean, i said that with his actions, he should make dean understand that he still cares for him, that he didn’t left him to die for a girl because clearly that’s what dean thinks right now, if Sam’s going to do that by explaining why he thought dean was dead so be it. My whole problem is that Sam didn’t lift a finger to change dean’s mind.

    Comment by bahar — February 12, 2013 @ 2:01 pm

  154. @ lisa: You are talking about two separate things when you compare Citizen Fang to Croatoan.

    Sam’s dreams in S1 and S2 were about things he was supposed to prevent from happening. His dream in Croatoan was of Dean shooting the boy, so he tries to prevent Dean from doing it. Also, earlier in the episode, Sam hesitated and did not kill Jake, and then Jake shows up again and is, in fact, infected we later learn.

    But that aside, Dean does lock Sam up and goes right up to the edge in killing Jake, but Sam’s persuasion was enough to prevent him from doing so, in addition to Sam’s frantic pleas in the background. Dean’s instincts were right, but Dean listened to Sam. Sam did not listen to Dean in Citizen Fang.

    Earlier in the episode, Dean did not hesitate to kill Mr. Tanner in the beginning of the episode or Mrs. Tanner once Sam confirmed that Mrs. Tanner was infected. When Sam is infected by the nurse, though, Dean angrily refuses to let Sam be shot and the others are too afraid of him to take him on. Seeing the logic of their arguments, though, Dean decides to die with Sam. Dean can no longer live with the weight of John’s words about killing Sam and now, faced with the thought of losing Sam, he decides he doesn’t want to go on.

    The point is, back in Croatoan, we could believe that the brothers loved each other and would give up everything for the other.

    No so in S8. Right in the first episode, Sam does say he thought Dean was dead and he refused to answer Dean when asked if he had looked for him at all. Later in 8.01, Sam says:

    SAM
    Listen, I know this is gonna sound crazy to you. I don’t even necessarily need you to understand. But…you need to know. I didn’t just drop out, Dean. I found something. Something I’ve… never had all my life.

    What is Dean to believe? That he loves him, that he cared that he was dead, that he knew Dean was dead and moved on, as they agreed they would if one or the other died? Dean was hurt by Sam’s actions. Sam later goes on to solidify these feelings:

    In that same episode, we see Sam (sort of) apologize to Kevin for dumping him (because Sam not only did not look for Dean, he dumped a 17-year old boy:

    SAM
    Kevin, I, uh… I owe you an apology. Um… look, when you disappeared and Dean disappeared, I…needed to clear my head, and… I’m thinking maybe you were one of the pieces that I should have been there to pick up.

    And that’s the only reason he has agreed to hunt with Dean — after listening to the phone recordings, he felt guilty about dumping Kevin.

    Sam goes on to tell Kevin that once the Gates of Hell are closed, he can go back to his normal life. He says that he has found a way:

    SAM
    If we can do this, get the tablet, get you everything you need to close the gates of Hell, there’s a world out there where nobody – not Crowley, no demon – is chasing you anymore.

    KEVIN
    I guess I just don’t see how I get from here to there.

    SAM
    I used to not be able to see it, either. But there is a way.

    And Dean hears him say that, again reinforcing that Sam does not want to be with Dean.

    In a follow-up episode, and I can’t remember which one that is now, Sam tells Dean he needs to think about hunting by himself, because Sam wants something else.

    The point is that what went on in Croatoan really isn’t comparable to what has gone on this season. Sam may not need to apologize, but he is supposed to know his brother better than anyone in the world, he knows how Dean feels about hunting, about his family, and about being abandoned by that family, and Sam fed into that up until he found his reason to hunt — his legacy and his archives.

    Does he need to apologize? Who cares. What he does need to do is to show some consideration towards Dean through his actions. Up until the writers decided to shuck that part of the season, everything Sam has done shows a lack of any consideration for Dean.

    Comment by Sheri — February 12, 2013 @ 2:03 pm

  155. it should be “he didn’t LEAVE him to die…”
    and “Sam should APOLOGIZE…” sorry, my mistake.

    Comment by bahar — February 12, 2013 @ 2:14 pm

  156. I don’t really care at this point if Dam owns up to how he treated Dean. It’s not gonna happen anyway. But I do really want Dean to be the one to do the trails, because it’s his turn to actually matter this season.

    Comment by roxi — February 12, 2013 @ 6:12 pm

  157. I meant Sam.

    Comment by roxi — February 12, 2013 @ 6:13 pm

  158. I guess I’d have to say again: Sam’s goal in life is not to live forever with Dean. He is not devoted to the bond as an end unto itself. What kind of guy has a life-goal of wanting to live with his brother? That is downright weird even for Supernatural .(not so for Wincest writers I realize, but I’m just not liberal enough to want to endorse or be entertained by incest.)
    Do some people actually believe that if you don’t want to live your life with you sibling, you don’t care about or even hate your sibling? I don’t think so.
    Sam has wanted to leave hunting; his motivation is to escape the horrors of the job. His motivation is not to escape Dean. His desire to have a “normal” or less stressful life has never been depicted as a desire to get rid of Dean, it has been to escape hunting. You’ve really got to be in the evil Sam/wonderful Dean mode to interpret Sam’s wanting to get out of hunting as motivated by wanting to hurt or leave Dean.
    If Sam left Dean would feel a sense of abandonment, and that would be perfectly normal. But Dean’s not immature enough to believe that his need for companionship should keep Sam in a life he wants to escape. Dean is simply not that selfish or self-centered.
    Sam now has a goal that will keep him in hunting: fulfilling the MOL legacy. So Sam has a reason now to want to be, if not a hunter, a Man of Letters. Carver seems to understand that Sam needs a reason to live with Dean, that living with Dean is not Sam’s primary goal. I’m pleased Carver understands that.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 12, 2013 @ 6:27 pm

  159. Casey, where do you see anybody wanting Sam’s life to be all about Dean? He doesn’t have to live wwith Dean. He could’ve even left hunting, that was never the point. But does that mean he would suddenly stop caring at all? And yes, that IS what the first half showed, especially how he acted towards Dean, like he wasn’t even happy to find him alive. No, he didn’t have to continually gush, but after finding out by surprise that the brother you thought was dead for a year is alive, I should think you’d act with a little more joy than what Sam did. Instead of being happy and jazzed about this, he was shown to be only thinking about his married girlfriend the whole time. So yeah, it did seem, to many people anyway, that he just stopped giving a damn about Dean.
    And you’re right; they both should have other things that make them happy besides eachother. I would really love to have Dean find something or someone that gives him happiness outside of Sam.

    Comment by roxi — February 12, 2013 @ 6:36 pm

  160. Sheri and Bahar – Was the writing consistent for Sam? No. Did it tell a story? No. Did it seem like Sam didn’t care about Dean? Sure. Do I, personally, believe Sam doesn’t care about Dean? HECK NO!

    That’s where we differ. No matter what crap the writers throw on Sam or have Sam do, I will NEVER believe Sam doesn’t care about Dean. Just like I would never believe that Dean doesn’t care about Sam. For me, the brotherhood is the show. The bond still exists for me. It always has. So, in spite of the whacky writing and characterization for Sam AND bad storyline, I still believe Sam cares about his brother.

    In my opinion, Sam was written in a very OOC way for the beginning of the season. I’m not sure why, but that’s how I saw it. He was thrown under a bus, IMO, and Carver didn’t even attempt to have the audience empathize w/him.

    I’m not sure how much we disagree b/c I do think Sam owes Dean an explanation for the choices he made. I guess I’ve just resigned myself to the likelihood of NOT getting that explanation so it’s not something I desperately need to enjoy the show. Honestly, for me, if the episodes continue in the same vein as the past two, I’ll be fine. I’ll just disregard the first 11 episodes. They didn’t mean much anyway.

    JMO.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 12, 2013 @ 7:45 pm

  161. @Lisa, I agree with your interpretation of how the show has been going and relationship the brother have. I think those are some really good points. Unfortunately, not everyone seems to agree. As you are aware, there are some very strong Dean fans here that just can not and will not let go of the Sam hating. It does not matter how you try to explain the situation, it won’t even matter if the writers actually did give an explanation/apology from Sam to Dean. They will still find something to complain when it comes to the Sam character.

    There are some Sam fans that will do the same thing as well. No matter what Dean does or not, they will hate him all the same.

    The problem here is that we need to respect the way others see and perceive what is happening on the show. We should not try to “make” people see our point on how we feel our character does not have a story, or how the other character is so bad and makes me so sick I don’t want to watch the show anymore.

    All of us will see things the way ‘we’ see them. And other will see them the way “they” see them.

    It would be great for me to express the way I feel about Sam in a positive way, without having others argue that I am wrong because they feel I am.

    It would be great for me to also express the way I feel about Dean in a positive way, without having others argue that I am wrong because they feel I am.

    Some people can actually manage to do this, I think you are one of them Lisa1.

    All I can say, again, is that is we should not allow the way we feel about one character RUIN the whole show.

    Again, the season has probably already be written. The episodes will be done the way the will be done. If you don’t like it, you can stop watching, or not. But having this arguments is not really going to change what has already been put down on paper.

    I just don’t understand the reasoning behind Hating a fictional character this much.

    Jensen, Jared, the writers and everyone involved in creating the show seem to be ok with how things are going. The have been renewed for a 9th season and the rating are really good.

    We can complain about things we don’t like here. That is not going to change the way the show has been written. Nor will it change the way other see the same show in a different way.

    I am not all happy smiles with the way the shows is going, but I still enjoy it and will continue to watch.

    It is nice to come here and see what other fans think. It is fun to see how many see it the same way I did, and how many saw it in a different way.

    It would also be nice to feel free to type a comment without having the hell out of it turn in to a discussion of how wrong I am because, how can I not hate the Sam/Dean character the same way others do, because of how they think things should be done.

    I come here a lot and read the post, some of then are nicer that others. I just wanted to make a comment. Hopefully I can get some good feedback.

    Comment by Jose — February 12, 2013 @ 9:07 pm

  162. @ Lisa1: Since Dean went to Hell, the writers screwed Sam’s character royally in an attempt to justify Sam drinking Ruby’s blood and betraying Dean so that Sam could become the hero and save the world. They have struggled with that ever since, writing Sam as self-centered, selfish, and having a majorly screwed up values, and then sometimes he’s nice. Sometimes it seemed that he was learning from his mistakes, and then they would take him back to doing something despicable again in an attempt to make him heroic.

    For instance, in S6 and S7, Sam felt that somehow his soul sitting in a cage and being tortured was enough to make up for everything he ever did and he was, therefore, guilt free. Unfortunately redemption requires acknowledgement, contrition and atonement, none of which Sam has ever done. If he had, he would not have run away from Kevin and he would not have treated Dean as he did in the first ten episodes of this season.

    All of that leads me to believe that Sam was not shown OOC this season. Rather, I believe that is what Carver is working with this season.

    Sam’s actions in the first ten episodes is a move very consistent with the Sam we have seen throughout the series – self-absorbed, selfish, and with screwed up values. The difference being, of course, was that in S1 – S3, the viewers KNEW that Sam loved his brother, but that hasn’t been shown since the end of S3.

    What I see happening now is that Carver is working on giving Sam a reason to hunt; not a reason to live only for Dean, but a reason to be in the game. That reason has been shown as discovering his legacy and his archive. That’s all very well, except I need to see that he, in some way, loves his brother and values him for the person he is, and that has not been shown.

    That’s what I’m waiting for from Sam’s character. It’s okay to have a lead who screws up and does ugly, mean things, but then there needs to be a lesson learned — the acknowledgement, contrition and atonement part of the hero journey — and, since the whole series is based on the love between brothers (family) all of that has to be directed towards Dean and what he has done to Dean over the years.

    What we have up until this time is one brother, Dean, who has accepted the fact that Sam needs a reason to hunt and has found it in his legacy and bunker of knowledge. The legacy and the bunker of knowledge gives Sam a reason that fits ideally into his character and his need to feel that he is doing something important — the old adage that knowledge is power is perfectly consistent with Sam’s character…and Dean is happy for Sam that Sam has found his purpose. But what about Dean?

    In S7, we saw Dean pull away from his co-dependency, and that has been reinforced this season with Dean letting Sam make his own choices as to whether to continue hunting or not.

    Dean has always embraced the family business and saving people, and that was reinforced during his year in Purgatory…and that is why he was able to let Sam make his own choice. Dean found clarity, and he’s happy Sam has now, too.

    What I think Dean is supposed to learn this season is a reinforcement of the fact that the hunting life is heroic and more important than mere happiness — that hunting is a worthy pursuit that doesn’t equate to a sucky life.

    If I’m right about that (and it’s only what I’ve reasoned out in my head) then it’s not being shown very well, IMO. If Dean is going to keep making this big self-sacrifice (happiness, a family of his own, risking his life for other people), then there should be a good reason given for him to continue doing that.

    That good reason can no longer be family, because Dean has been screwed over by everyone he ever considered family. Fate, or destiny, or MoL legacy isn’t good enough, because he’s been screwed over by that repeatedly. Saving people isn’t good enough for that, because all of his friends and family end up dying and he is left alone each and every time.

    I think that Dean’s only compelling reason to hunt must come through the realization that he is the best hunter out there, better than anyone else in the world. But the only way, IMO, that Dean can do that is to come to realize that he is not the monster he thinks he is, the monster that tortured souls in Hell. Until Dean deals with his Hell business, I just don’t see how that can happen — and I think Hell will host the summer Olympics before these writers even think of that.

    But, no, we don’t really disagree, except on the Sam OOC stuff, because we both think Sam’s actions have to be directed towards his relationship with Dean. That’s why I feel that a big, raw and emotional speech is the very last thing I want to see. Sam’s words cannot be trusted based on his character’s past actions during the last four years. I want Sam’s concern, appreciation, and love for Dean to be shown through his actions, not chick-flick conversations. Dean is a good man, and Sam needs to acknowledge that and treat him as such. Right now I’m feeling Hell will host a second summer Olympics before that happens.

    So, all in all, the first 10 or 11 episodes fit into this whole scenario; so, no, I can’t just forget them and move on. They have to mean something if there is any plan for the season at all.

    Comment by Sheri — February 12, 2013 @ 9:37 pm

  163. @jose hey, I like hearing what you think. The nice thing about this board is that there are a lot of folks who really know a lot about the show (and a heluva lot more about the entertainment industry than I ever will). Plus, I figure I’m more likely to learn something is I talk to someone that disagrees with me . I know you think this is all opinion and personal interpretation – but I’ve found myself persuaded by arguments other folks have made. Startled by their insights sometimes. So hang in there – and be prepared to defend what you think. Maybe you’ll persuade the rest of us and maybe you won’t – but you’ll definitely add to the conversation and hopefully have fun doing it.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 12, 2013 @ 10:51 pm

  164. @lisa
    I never said anything about hunting; I never said Sam should stay with dean for life. I said if he cares about dean as a brother he wouldn’t be ok with dean thinking Sam doesn’t give a damn he’s dead or alive. Even the thought of my sibling thinking that I don’t care about his wellbeing is horrifying to me. That’s not incest, that’s love for your family.
    And if there was a feeling at some point you can’t just assume it’s goanna be there forever. People change. When dean went to hell Sam CHANGED. He realized he didn’t need dean to be able to function properly and he never appreciated dean again, like he did in first three seasons.
    Writers create these characters. They are who the writers want them to be. Unlike you I can’t ignore what I’m seeing and just assume otherwise. I’m seeing Sam doesn’t give a damn about dean, I can’t just say this isn’t the real Sam, this is bad writing. Sam IS the writing. He isn’t real. There isn’t a reference, a real person that I can compare Sam to. Sam’s who we are seeing in the show every week.
    And these writers are goanna be here for the upcoming seasons. This way, we are goanna have to relate every other thing that’s goanna happen from now on to bad writing too.
    @jose and lisa
    I respect your opinion, and I’m NOT trying to change it. I’m just trying to express my own opinion about something I like, to other people that like it too. It’s called discussion. It’s not something to offend you.
    And IMO it’s not that wrong to hate a fictional character, but it IS wrong to hate other people that share my taste at least about entertainment. I never insulted anyone here. I’m just having a friendly discussion about some FICTIONAL character.

    Comment by bahar — February 13, 2013 @ 1:22 am

  165. guess what, i just watched a trailer of the next episode in witch Sam was fighting a hell hound with ruby’s knife and dean was making out with that girl. Sam’s gonna take the tests. i’m not gonna watch the rest of the season. thank you very much.

    Comment by bahar — February 13, 2013 @ 2:37 am

  166. in 165, “…next episode in WHICH Sam…”

    Comment by bahar — February 13, 2013 @ 2:57 am

  167. @ bahar: I’ve seen that trailer, but the trailers are always somewhat misleading. We don’t know if what Sam is fighting is a hellhound or even if they will be fighting a hellhound this episode. In the past, the hellhounds have been invisible. Do those glasses the brothers are wearing let them see hellhounds? Is that girl Dean is making out with a crossroads demon? Does Dean start the test and Sam comes to his rescue, thus making it Sam the real one to do the test. We just don’t know yet.

    From what JP said in the Zap2It interview, it sure sounded like Sam will do the tests, and I’m certainly expecting it to be him, but I’m going to watch it and see and probably be mad as hell.

    Comment by Sheri — February 13, 2013 @ 3:07 am

  168. @Jose – Thanks for the post. You should post more often. And I do agree that it feels too much like defending your right to a position than a discussion about different views at this point. At least that’s how I feel. I’ve run out of steam w/this one.

    @ Sheri – I completely disagree w/you that Sam has been presented as “self-absorbed, selfish, and with screwed up values” since the beginning of the series. You just don’t like Sam, which is fine. I know that and have known that for a while now. It just means you and I will never agree when it comes to him.

    There has been far less emotional development for him than Dean. The audience has to work to understand what he’s thinking b/c the writers refuse to give him a clear POV. He’s written to fit whatever story they’re trying to tell. It’s a clear writing issue for me, and a character problem w/you. So, it is what it is.

    @Bahar – As I’ve tried to explain, I’m not ignoring anything. I’ve stated numerous times that the writing sucks this year and that Sam was not presented well but no matter how much I explain myself, I keep getting misinterpreted so I’m over it.

    Comment by Lisa1! — February 13, 2013 @ 3:18 am

  169. @sheri
    we’ll be disappointed again. a while back, in one of his interviews, carver said dean’s story this season will be dealing with Benny. i thought he didn’t want to give the new plots away. but seems like dean’s only story this season IS dealing with Benny.
    Sam had Amelia, man of letters and now these tests and whatever they’re gonna bring with them. it’s unfair. if dean ends up doing the tests i will eat my words but it’s really unlikely.

    Comment by bahar — February 13, 2013 @ 3:55 am

  170. JP likes to talk about his own character. If he said something about the next episode it’ll be about Sam. JA is always quieter at interviews because he doesn’t have much to talk about. It’s just my opinion, I don’t want to offend anyone.

    Comment by bahar — February 13, 2013 @ 4:31 am

  171. @ yeah , 132: Ha ha ha, I guess I’m one who thinks they behave like a married couple, with the expectations and commitments. After all, I don’t know any brothers who have THAT intense a relationship at their ages. Anyway, its TV and its fun, and makes me happy. Usually anyway, unless I’m all worked up about something or heartbroken or upset…

    Anyway, I had a couple of things to say:
    a. I don’t think people that one is close to and love, have to always explain or apologize for their actions. After all, people are different, with different thought processes and viewpoints, etc. Have my siblings or husband or children done stuff I’m not pleased with or even hurt by? Sure. Do I always get an apology or explanation? Not always. But that doesn’t mean I love them any less, or that I’m less close to them. It might take me a while to get over myself, but I move on. Unless it’s something huge. Otherwise, it’s just too bad. People are just not going to behave the way I’d like them to, so either I get over it, or keep fretting and making myself miserable. I think Sam and Dean are at that place where each might do stuff they don’t like, but that really doesn’t change their inherent love or relationship. Mostly.

    b. That all being said, the stuff that was shown in the first half was completely ridiculous and OOC, completely and unforgivably for Sam, but even for Dean at times (for example, I know that Dean doesn’t harbor a grudge against Sam for the things he did without a soul). However, I get the feeling that Jeremy Carver and co. really do not think they did anything wrong, so they’re not going to try and explain it. They write what they want, they experiment, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t. After all, it’s a TV show. They ideally should at least do some explanations and wrapping up. But WILL they? No, I know I’m not going to get a satisfactory explanation for Sam’s actions. Not after 13 episodes. So again, either I keep fretting and waiting for something that wont happen, or I just try and enjoy the show. Perhaps they had their moments off the air ;). After all, in ‘Bitten’, didn’t someone say that all they discussed after the work talk was how they had been apart from each other for the year. So, I’d like to believe that .

    But honestly, at the end of the day, we’re left with some irrational, totally unexplained behavior (the most unforgivable being the ‘not looking for Dean thing’). But, I think (and I might be wrong) that the writers want us to believe that the boys made some mistakes, but they’ve forgiven each other and are back to where we wanted them to be in the first place. Or, as someone commented here, maybe they just showed 10 alternate-version episodes of Supernatural by mistake, and are now back to the real one. Either way, happy brotherly relationship again! Yay!

    @Sherri, bahar: I do not think at all that Sam is selfish and self absorbed. My opinion is that he has shown a number of times that he is regretful of his mistakes and tries to make amends. He tried to get the crossroad demon to change places with Dean. He remembered hell so as not to leave Dean alone. He apologized for choosing Ruby (presumably for the greater good), and apologized for his soulless time, and then proceeded to show it by his actions. He would have done anything to bring Dean back in Mystery Spot and literally begged the trickster for that. He made the ultimate sacrifice of jumping into the cage with Lucifer and Michael for eternity. They behave differently, sure. One brother has always taken care of the other from childhood, and obviously that shapes their interactions and relationship. But no, I don’t get the ‘one brother is the giver and the other the taker’ vibe at all, though I’ve tried to see it like that to understand others’ viewpoints.

    Comment by Tammy — February 13, 2013 @ 4:51 am

  172. 161- jose, I DON’T hate Sam. I

    Comment by roxi — February 13, 2013 @ 4:56 am

  173. I don’t hate Sam, I do hate how he was presented in the first half. I’m sorry you can’t understand what I am saying, but I never hated Sam. I just wish there was more fair treatment of both brothers.

    Comment by roxi — February 13, 2013 @ 4:59 am

  174. Where are you guys seeing this trailer? Do you mean the one that’s been right here all week? I really can’t tell anything by that.
    And do you have a link to Jared’s interview? I can’t find it. And it’s possible, though not likely, that Jared is being a little misleading. At least I hope so. I am so hoping it’s Dean that does these tests. I love Sam, regardless of what some people think, I just don’t think it’s fair that all importance and attention is giving to him while Dean gets no importance at all. Sam had the Amelia story front and center, albeit a crappy story, and now he has MOL. It wouldn’t be fair if he got to do the tests as well.

    Comment by roxi — February 13, 2013 @ 5:34 am

  175. @roxi
    “I love Sam, regardless of what some people think, I just don’t think it’s fair that all importance and attention is giving to him while Dean gets no importance at all. Sam had the Amelia story front and center, albeit a crappy story, and now he has MOL. It wouldn’t be fair if he got to do the tests as well.”
    Exactly, that’s what I’m saying too.
    “Where are you guys seeing this trailer? Do you mean the one that’s been right here all week? I really can’t tell anything by that.”
    Yeah. I’m talking about that trailer, Sam’s fighting a hellhound. And I think coughing blood would be from swallowing hellhound’s blood and in that trailer I think the hellhound’s bleeding on Sam.

    Comment by bahar — February 13, 2013 @ 6:02 am

  176. @ Lisa1: I’ve heard the Sam no POV for a long time now. It is not my intention to be mean to anyone who likes Sam’s character when I say this, but I think I’ve had enough of Sam’s POV.

    We’ve had the 5-year arc Sam POV where he was clearly shown to be filled with pride and self-righteousness (self-absorbed). All wiped away by jumping in the hole.

    Only to be brought back as Sambot, who was nothing, if not self-centered. He didn’t want his soul back because it could possibly hurt him. Sambot’s actions were Sam’s POV, all wiped away when Dean killed himself to ensure Sam was human again (i.e., Dean took care of him). I don’t buy the cries that this wasn’t the real Sam, therefore, Sam couldn’t be blamed. Sambot was Sam’s story for the season.

    Then we got HellpainSam, who floundered around unsure of himself and nothing happened with that story. Nothing was learned by Sam that I could tell except Dean took care of him. Hellpain Sam was Sam’s story, and he heroically fought Luci until Dean was in danger and he gave Luci the chance to take over, and then Cas saved him.

    Then we got Samelia, where Sam was reset to his original factory settings of wanting what he wants, until he didn’t want it any more.

    In each of these versions of Sam through every single season, he was shown in some way to be full of himself and not a very nice person. He repeatedly dumped Dean, he dumped Amelia twice, he dumped Kevin, and he dumped Martin, all the while being the Chosen One to do something. That something now is to embrace his intellectual self with his legacy and books (i.e., prideful that his intelligence now has some importance and finding importance in the MoLs title, legacy, whatever you want to call it).

    Has he occasionally shown some feelings for Dean? Yes, but never consistently (i.e., the lack of any significant change in his thinking and character).

    What has been consistent in his stories is those things I mentioned. Is this a writing problem? No, because Sam is not a separate entity from the writers — he is a manifestation of the character the writers have developed, as is Dean.

    Quite frankly, I have had enough of Sam’s POV. He’s not a person that I admire. Others do for whatever their reasons, but to say that Sam is OOC or that the writers have messed up is choosing to ignore or simply not liking Sam’s POV that has been given. It’s there and always has been.

    Anybody who takes these discussions personally as some attack against their thoughts or feelings or as an attempt to change anyone’s viewpoint is not understanding the discussion, IMO. What is going on, or at least what I am doing, is justifying my interpretation of the show. If others have a viewpoint and don’t watch the show simply to see the pretty (and both Js are very pretty), then there should be some defendable viewpoint for their opinion.

    Honestly, I don’t care who likes which character. I like Dean and have come to dislike Sam for the reasons I state. I’ve been very open in my dislike for Sam’s character, and I feel that I clearly justify my feelings as to why. And that’s why I really, really hope that tonight’s episode doesn’t prove that this is another season of Sam The Chosen One story.

    Comment by Sheri — February 13, 2013 @ 6:07 am

  177. Sheri – you and I just see it differently. If you’ll notice, I never said Sam didn’t have any storylines; he doesn’t have a POV, which is a completely different matter to me.

    For me, storyline and POV are different things. We’ll probably never agree on that point.
    In any event, I don’t see Sam as a selfish, horrible person who doesn’t care about his brother even with the bad writing for Sam earlier this season. I never have.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 13, 2013 @ 6:48 am

  178. @ Lisa1: I should have added that because I do see the stories as containing both characters’ POV, and that POV making Sam an unlikeable character, that it is my hope that Carver is working on correcting that this season. I am completely mystified by what Carver has in mind for either character, actually.

    The show has two leads and it is normal for people to like one over the other and to have different perspectives about what they see. Discussing those differences is fun. I get a lot of mental exercise in having to think things through based on what other posters see, and that has upped my enjoyment of the show.

    In fact, it’s my entertainment, because I don’t watch anything else on TV. We probably won’t ever agree in our viewpoint or see the same things in the show (CaseyT and I don’t, but we’ve been discussing for years now), but there would be no fun if we did.

    Comment by Sheri — February 13, 2013 @ 7:12 am

  179. I’ve had enough of Dean’s POV.

    Comment by josephineschmoe — February 13, 2013 @ 10:36 am

  180. Sheri, please do everyone a favour and shut up. Seriously. Your posts represent the same OTT biased nonsense. Yeah, we get it. YOU HATE SAM. Get over yourself. Stop imposing your views onto other people who don’t agree with you. I see you post here every single week and you are the root cause of a lot of disagreements and fighting on here.

    Comment by Jessica — February 13, 2013 @ 10:55 am

  181. Thank you Jessica, I agreed with you, Sheri is very close minded and she isn’t opening for any conceivable angles, her way or the highway. I do not waste my time reading her long annoying and redundant comments any more

    Comment by pkl53 — February 13, 2013 @ 12:34 pm

  182. Stating your opinion and engaging in debate isn’t imposing your opinion on someone. You have every right to disagree and ignore. I may not agree with everything she says, but she has every right to post whatever she wants, as many times as she wants. You have a right not to like it, not to read it, or to blast it, but who are any of us to tell someone that they shouldn’t be allowed to speak?

    Comment by yeah — February 13, 2013 @ 3:31 pm

  183. Well to anybody who doesn’t like my posts, you won’t have to put up with them anymore. I’m not watching SPN anymore. Giving Sam YET AGAIN the main story is quite enough for me.
    I can’t believe they did this again. Why not just write Dean off. They give him absolutely nothing,they couldn’t care less about his character, he has no purpose, as much as I love Jensen and the character of Dean I just can’t enjoy watching him get screwed once again while like always, Sam gets to be the main star. I hope at least Dean gets laid tonight, So that’s it. No more SPN for me, I’ve had it. I guess some on here will say good riddance to me, fair enough. Take care everybody. Hopefully Jensen will get a juicy tv role after SPN ends.

    Comment by roxi — February 13, 2013 @ 3:34 pm

  184. To Jessica and pji53: Sheri has never forced her views down any one’s throat. She just gives her opinion through her perspective. She has never said to anyone that you have to see it her way, just that she disagrees. I don’t see a lot of things her way but I enjoy her point of view. It is quite interesting to see someone else’s point of view and why. You two are the ones attacking the poster(s) personally and that is what makes any board bad.

    Roxi, I love your posts. I hope you do come back. Maybe you can wait a couple of days and see what the posters have to say about the this particular ep! Don’t give up yet!! I will miss you, a fellow Dean fan, who loves Sam as well despite his bad behavior this season.

    Comment by twinster — February 13, 2013 @ 4:30 pm

  185. No Twinster, Jared already confirmed it’s him. And I don’t’ hate him but come on! Carver only talks about Sam. Singer only talks about Sam. Sam gets everything. It’s crystal clear who they favor. So I’m not quite sure at this point why the character of Dean is even still a part of SPN. And if you listen to Jensen’s interviews, he does seem a little quiet and subdued, maybe even a little disappointed.
    But as long as he shows up, stands there and looks pretty, much like his modeling days, he gets a fat paycheck. This tells me that Jensen has no integrity as an actor and is only in it for the fat paycheck, to buy boats and stuff. Because if he did, he’d get a little upset that his character gets absolutely nothing good to act, no decent storylines. But he just sits there in every interview and talks about things like missing the Impala. Wow.And yeah Jared is upbeat all the time,why shouldn’t he be? His character gets all the attention, all the important stories, real love interests, and lots of acting showcases. A Sam fan has every reason to be happy as well.
    Me, I never wanted it to be all about Dean, but it’s NEVER about Dean.
    And if I voice that disappointment here, somebody is just gonna tell me to shut up, call me crazy, or accuse me of hating Sam.
    So being that it’s just a TV show and I have real, serious problems to contend with, what’s the point of continuing to watch a show that only pisses me off and disappoints me? I’ll watch it tonight, only to see if Dean gets anything real started with this girl ( they owe him at least that much) but I really think I’m done. And you’re probably the only one here that would be sorry to see me go, I don’t seem to be that popular. So if you guys can still enjoy watching , great.

    Comment by roxi — February 13, 2013 @ 5:40 pm

  186. Roxi–you’ve got to come back. I disagree with you frequently, but you really seemed to have loved the series. And, I did not get to answer your question.
    I do see people who think Sam is only there to make Dean happy. I’ve seen volumes of stuff about Sam being an ass to Dean in episodes 1-9, a flood of oh-poor-Dean being so badly treated by his awful brother; Sam owes Dean numerous apologies. If Sam told Dean ” You left me for a GIRL!” if Dean were so love-struck he was ignoring Sam, many of those same people would be writing columns of Sam-hate about insensitive and uncaring Sam who is so inhuman and uncaring that he did not even try to understand Dean’s wonderful romantic relationship with his new honey. How could stupid Sam not be celebrating his brother’s having found the love of his life? There would be calls for hateful Sam to get down on his knees and beg forgiveness for his stupid self-centeredness. After all, Sam must always make Dean happy to be so incredibly privileged to be in the presence of that groups’ caring, sensitive, magnificent , wonderful Dean. Guarantee that would be happening.
    Sheri- I’ve enjoyed it too. I know when we actually agree; there must be some truth there.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 13, 2013 @ 5:52 pm

  187. Well, after the first five minutes of this one, I’m already 100% sure that this girl is NOT a real love interest. You’ll see what I mean.
    Well, that was the only thing I was looking forward to in this episode, and of course, that’s a bust.

    Comment by roxi — February 13, 2013 @ 6:17 pm

  188. 186- That’ll never happen, sine Dean will never really get a true love interest.
    Sorry, I know you disagree with me, but as far as I’ve always seen, Sam is the star and Dean is the sidekick. Dean should’ve in fairness had this story, but I should’ve known that wouldn’t happen. So really, it’s kinda stupid for me to keep bitching about it. I’ll just give up the show, it’s not that important anyway.

    Comment by roxi — February 13, 2013 @ 6:34 pm

  189. Roxi, I know you’re upset but I just have to chime in to defend Jensen. I don’t think what you’re seeing is a lack of integrity. It’s being a professional. He has a job, he signed a contract, he can’t quit. He may not be happy about his character’s storyline but we will never know because he shows up every day and does his job without complaint. I respect him for it. Especially because, like you, I am beyond disappointed with this latest turn. Sam again? Oh, show.

    Comment by Luluanne — February 13, 2013 @ 7:02 pm

  190. studied the information on the website quite a lot, hoping to take the plunge soon and buy a steam shower
    cabin, in all probability soon after the holiday break

    Comment by Roseanne — February 5, 2014 @ 6:26 pm

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