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“Trial and Error” Discussion

Post your thoughts on this episode below. Click HERE for y full recap or keep reading for my quick thoughts.

I have to admit, I always get excited when the “previously on” includes really old stuff. And going way back to season 2 for the stuff about Crossroads Demons and Hellhounds made my day.

This episode had what we love: Big, emotional speeches. First Dean with his whole thing about how he’s closing the Gates of Hell because he knows it will kill him and he wants to protect Sam. Classic Dean. Also, we all knew the moment he said it that Sam was gonna be the one to close the Gates.

But it was Sam’s speech at the end that really got to me. The fact that he needs to tell Dean that people love him and he deserves to live and fight was great. When he said that Dean is the best Hunter ever, even better than dad, I got chills. Really great, touching stuff.

The Hellhound stuff was amusing, if only to count how many different nicknames Dean could come up with. Clifford the Big Dead Dog was obviously the best.

Although Dean must be slipping, because it was VERY obvious the ranchy lady made the deal. She was living like it was her last day on Earth, though I suppose a woman throwing herself at Dean isn’t that uncommon.

My final thought: Was it just me or did Dean look a lot sexier with glasses? And Sam just looked kind of silly.

News posted on February 13, 2013 Comments (221)

221 Comments »

  1. I LOVE this episode! I felt butterflies in my stomach again and I hope it keep going like that!
    I’m so excited for the next episodes and SO happy that will have season 9

    Comment by Ashley — February 13, 2013 @ 6:59 pm

  2. I am so f’ing disappointed. Once again Dean is shut out of the main arc and Sam gets to be the hero. It is never going to be Dean’s turn. I am sick and tired of this crap.

    Comment by Haley 56 — February 13, 2013 @ 7:03 pm

  3. Loved it. Loved it. Loved it. This IS Supernatural, IMO. This episode hit all the right points.

    I’m so happy the horror that were the first 11 episodes is firmly behind us. We got strong support for the brotherly bond/brotherhood from BOTH brothers. Dean’s speech was so sad so I was very happy Sam told Dean that Dean’s life has meaning.

    I loved the way it all played out. There was no debate or fight over who would do the trials. Dean took over, and Sam let him. And Sam’s desire to do the trials had nothing to do w/Sam thinking Dean couldn’t do them but w/his concern that Dean wouldn’t try to survive them whereas Sam will. Sam doesn’t want his brother dead. He never has (first 11 episodes aside).

    That was great. So many things I loved. I loved the “Ken” doll remark, and the banter btw the country singer and her dad. They were hilarious.

    I liked Ellie a lot! Again, I’m not sure why this show is able to hit the right notes for one-time LIs but can’t do it for longterm LIs. It’s very strange, but she was cute and had great chemistry w/Jensen.

    I also liked how Sam was trying to give Kevin some advice about slowing down a bit. Kevin is going to run himself ragged.

    Both Jared and Jensen looked ridiculously HOT in their glasses.

    I have nothing bad to say about this episode. It was great! Hope the rest of the season is like this. For me, I feel like Supernatural is finally back. The season has begun – finally!

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 13, 2013 @ 7:10 pm

  4. He was shut out long before this episode. You don’t have to blame it on Sam.

    Comment by Li — February 13, 2013 @ 7:10 pm

  5. Beautiful. Just. Beautiful. The brothers are connected, Dean’s issues have been brought to light, Sam addressed them. Dean wants Sam to be safe, Sam wants to bring Dean with him. I haven’t seen this since season 2 finale. And season 5. I love this season.

    Comment by pinky — February 13, 2013 @ 7:11 pm

  6. Love me some spn,
    there were some scary moments, especially when Sam were struggling with the hell hound.

    Comment by pkl53 — February 13, 2013 @ 7:21 pm

  7. I am Sooooo Stoked that you could finally see a Hell Hound!!! I thought it was a pretty good rendering also!!

    Comment by Ryan — February 13, 2013 @ 7:22 pm

  8. Good episode, I really like how they are bringing the brothers back together and gives their characters back to their old school mentalities. I liked how they showed Dean and his mother to, I also enjoy when they decide to show a little old story line to keep things all tangled together in the way we all have grown to love from supernatural. Jensen and Jared are terrific actors and make this entire show , its no surprise to me they signed for a 9th season. Rock On

    Comment by creepngiggles — February 13, 2013 @ 7:36 pm

  9. I wonder if Dabb has a template for a script and just has to fill in the blanks with some Sam and Dean clichés. The entire episode was just awful, and I can’t even think of one good thing to say about it, including the acting from J2s.

    Another year of Sam the Chosen One and Dean the capebearer. I guess they did built some Dean characterization. He now cooks and cleans for Sam, and probably does the laundry. Now, that’s a top shelf hunter if I’ve ever seen one.

    Comment by Sheri — February 13, 2013 @ 7:37 pm

  10. I am so happy! Four great, angel-free episodes – I don’t think we’ve had that since season 3. I really wanted Dean to get the trials just so the Dean-fans would stop whining (and, in return, maybe the Sam character could get most of the POV, most of the screen time, most of the guest interactions, etc – that would be nice after 7 years), but I’ve decided to ignore them and just enjoy my show. And I’ll gladly mind-wipe the first half of the season, if this is the second half. These have been early seasons (1-3) goodness!

    Comment by RS — February 13, 2013 @ 7:53 pm

  11. Can’t remember the last time I so enjoyed three SPN’s in a row. Mostly I loved this Dean. He has got his swagger and self confidence back, and I love his smart ass rapid quotes with his original short-hand language. I particularly enjoyed both brothers deeply sincere statements to each other. They expressed how they see themselves, how they see their brother, and what they want to give their brother–more expression of important emotional feelings in those two speeches than in two years of Sera soap crap. I’m sure there will be those who will be horrified that Dean did not get the Test, but mostly those people want Dean to do all the emoting, slay all the demons, and carry every other element in the series. I prefer a series about two brothers and this is the two brothers I like: a Dean who thinks he has no choice in life but to die as a hunter and a Sam who wants a normal life and a way out of hunting. Two brothers who admire each other and want to help each other. I’m already seeing a series finale in which Sam dies but gives Dean the ability to leave hunting and live a normal life. The last three episodes have, at least for me, put this series back into high gear.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 13, 2013 @ 7:54 pm

  12. I loved it. Edge of my seat loved it. This is the Sam and Dean I want on my screen. The guest cast was really good too.

    Comment by inky — February 13, 2013 @ 8:12 pm

  13. I loved this episode. It was great to hear both Sam and Dean’s speech. I’m glad that Sam got to do this trial, because as Sam said he see’s the light at the end of the tunnel where Dean doesn’t. Dean is trying to save Sam by doing the 3 trials, but Dean is treating them like a suicide mission and Sam doesn’t want hat. Sam wants to survive the 3 trials and close the gates of Hell and he wants Dean to be there surviving when he does.

    Sam didn’t look as good as Dean in the glasses, but that could be because of Sam’s long hair. Sam probably would have looked better in different glasses. Dean looked good in those kind of glasses – he had a kind of Clark Kent look.

    No matter what happens at the end of this season – does Sam do the other 2 trials this season, does Dean do some of them (in Sam’s speech at the end of the episode it sounded like Dean thought the other 2 trials could be done by either one of them),but no matter what happens to them, because they have a season 9 we all know that they will be back.

    Comment by valerie — February 13, 2013 @ 8:13 pm

  14. The last three episodes have been tremendous! As someone else said, these last three have been early season good!

    I didn’t think I could be excited by this show again. I really didn’t. It please me so much to feel the same excitement I used to feel when watching the show. I’m actually looking forward to the next episode!

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 13, 2013 @ 8:17 pm

  15. CaseyT, why do you consistently have to belittle Dean fans? By descending into hyperbole about Dean fans who are unhappy can’t do the trials also wanting him to do all the emoting, all the slaying, etc, you’re invalidating their opinions by dismissing them as the dreaded EDGs. Why should I be ashamed if I wished Dean had gotten to do the trials, i.e., part of the mytharc? If Sam took what is traditionally Dean’s support role, does that mean the series is not longer about two brothers? Why is it so hard to voice your opinion without running down the fans with whom you don’t agree? I only ask because I quite like discussing with you, but I don’t like feeling like I have to start out from a defensive standpoint everytime because of your lambasts against fans who don’t think the same way that you do.

    That said, I agree that this episod was quite likeable, even if I dont’ care for the way the mytharc was distributed yet again. I think they handled giving Sam the trials as best they could (though even if I hadn’t read spoilers Dean’s speech was a gigantic anvil that it was going to go the other way). I’m not sure where Dean’s sudden swerve back to suicide came from, or why he has to be put in position to be taught yet another lesson, but at least this time the lesson (that he is worthwhile and that Sam might actually want him around at the end, despite first half of the season’s message) is a good one. The two speeches were actually quite well done, despite the contortion it took to get there.

    I hope, however, that your ending scenario doesn’t come to pass. What a gigantic cliche that would be, no offense. Then again, that’s probably exaclty what show is going to go for–they’ve shown they like to repeat their patterns, clearly.

    I liked the episode’s MotW feel within a mytharc episode feel, and I liked the Dallas redux family–they were hopeless OTT but I did giggle. I hope show can keep their momentum going into the hiatus.

    Comment by yeah — February 13, 2013 @ 8:17 pm

  16. I LIKED this Trial & Error episode. Glad both brothers worked together.

    Glad Carver must be realizing we wanna see SPN about the brothers and not the 2ndary characters.

    Comment by ozzie — February 13, 2013 @ 8:24 pm

  17. Ozzie, I hope you’re right. The change in the last 3 episodes is drastic, IMO. These last three episodes are reminiscent of the Supernatural I grew to love.

    I hope Carver has realized that the first 11 episodes weren’t the right path for the show and continues down this new path.

    And you’re so right about the show focusing on the brothers. That’s what I love about the last three.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 13, 2013 @ 8:33 pm

  18. This was a really well done episode but pretty predictable. Who didn’t know Sam would swoop in at the end and save the day? That being said, I loved the speeches by both brothers and they were both dead on in their assessment. I think Sam made the mistake, tho. He wants to make Dean see the light at the end of the tunnel? Well, Dean has always seen the light for Sam, it’s himself he doesn’t see it for. And now that Sam is going to be the one going through the trials, nothing will change. Dean is still not fighting for himself, he’s fighting for Sam. I think the writers missed a huge opportunity to have Sam find a way to make his brother fight for himself. So nothing was really gained except now Sam has another plot line in addition to the Men of Letters stuff and the sacrifice of the love life (that didn’t really come across as all that special, but that’s just me.) I am disappointed they went with the predictable ending. Dean is once again just existing to protect Sam and Sam will probably cover up and not tell Dean what’s going on so there will be more unnecessary tension between them. I did enjoy the episode, but I want this show to surprise me and shock me again. I’m gonna wait and hope that actually happens sometime this season.

    Comment by SueP — February 13, 2013 @ 8:47 pm

  19. Well they have so many tablets so Im sure Dean will hit one of them up.

    Very good episode and they need to keep this up instead of throwing all the comedy episodes so much.

    Comment by Lisa2 — February 13, 2013 @ 8:51 pm

  20. I think that I would like the story no matter who did the trials. There would be good stuff to tell either way. I do however think there is a certain symmetry to having Lucifer’s vessel, the Boy King, shut the gates of hell. There is an angel tablet out there too…maybe for Michael’s vessel?

    I understand why some people are disappointed. no story is going to satisfy every fan. There are people talking about this stuff as if they were personally betrayed by the writers.

    If Dean ended up doing the trials, there would be people pointing out that Dean got to kill Dick Roman and got the cool Purgatory flashbacks while Sam babysat Kevin and had brightly lit but boring flashbacks with Amelia. Everyone sees it differently. I have read comments from Dean fans that claim Carver hates Dean and from Sam fans saying Carver hates Sam. Could he possibly hate them both? And we haven’t even discussed the Cas fans.

    The writers can’t even come close to making everyone happy so they have to tell the story the way they see it, and have the characters in the roles that they see them in. The writers already put in a lot of fan service-y stuff but I hate the thought of them changing their vision for the story based on which fan group yells the loudest on twitter.

    Some things might get changed due of positive or negative feedback because there is a need to please the consumer but it is also an artistic endeavor and mostly we just have to decide whether or not we are along for the ride.

    Comment by inky — February 13, 2013 @ 9:42 pm

  21. There were some things I liked and some things that were poorly done in this episode. And then there was the oh-so-predictable ending.

    Loved that Dean fixed up his own room (sad that it was all guns) and loved when he put the photo of him and his Mom front and center. Hated Sam’s stupid smirk and judging attitude. Same thing with the stupid comment about Dean and the kitchen. Who does he think cooked for him all through his childhood?

    Hated the family but liked the farm manager. Amazing how such a rich family and such a well-cared for ranch had absolutely no staff!!! The two new “drifters” had to cook the steak and pour the wine. What a bunch of crap!

    Laughed at Sam telling Kevin to take care of himself! Glad Sam was finally watching out for him.

    The ending was so predictable it was sickening. You know I am not happy that Sam is going to be the one doing the 3 challenges but I can live with it. But Sam having to come in and save the day because Dean (the Best Hunter in the world) got knocked aside 1-2-3 really made me gag! It was so obvious after Dean’s “proclamation” that Sam was going to somehow have to save him. And he did- like he should have. But it is also very clear that the entire production staff of this show thinks Dean is a second-rate character and should be more of a supporting character than a main star.

    Last week’s episode was much better. It was good to not have garth or crowley actually in this episode but the writing was horrible and the guest characters were so generic I felt like I was watching a soap.

    Hope so much next week will be better.

    (Shallow note: Both boys looked great in glasses!)

    Comment by SL — February 13, 2013 @ 9:43 pm

  22. That’s why singer said closing the gates of hell will be a personal mission for SAM. Because it is. I just don’t understand what dean is doing there. At this rate, If they left him to rot in purgatory nothing would have changed.

    Comment by bahar — February 13, 2013 @ 10:02 pm

  23. When Dean left his room, Sam looked aroudn and smiled. Sam is happy Dean has a room and that Dean is happy. He was not judging Dean, IMO. Just some light teasing btw brothers.

    Yes, Sam scoffed at Dean making him food b/c I’m sure they ate tv dinners and Spaghettio’s for most of their childhood lives. Again, I doubt it was meant to be taken seriously but to each his/her own. I thought the scene was cute. Sam rarely eats hamburgers but wanted to wolf down his brother’s. I loved when he took it w/him.

    JMO though.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 13, 2013 @ 10:03 pm

  24. Anybody else super-glad that the hell hounds didn’t turn out to just be humans with a few prosthetics?

    I mean, pretty much every other monster was humanoid on the show. Including the dragons and the phoenix.

    But not hell hounds! Yay! I hope to see this as the start of a new trend.

    Comment by brx — February 13, 2013 @ 10:24 pm

  25. Oh, great. Sheri has come along to try and poopoo a great episode.
    Why do you even bother watching anymore?

    Comment by brx — February 13, 2013 @ 10:26 pm

  26. Honestly, as much as I was excited to see which one of the brothers would end up completing the trials, but the writing and the pacing were horrible. Watching the Cassidy family was such torture that I actually contemplated changing the channel towards the middle of the episode because it was so boring. Pacing wise as well as in regard to writing, I felt as if this episode was all-across the board, one minute helter-skelter, the next crawling like a snail.

    Overall, this episode had a lot of weak points but did advance the hell-gates myth-arc quite a bit. Sam being the one to complete the trials was quite predictable, but his speech at the end was very compelling. It was great to see the connection between the brothers, but I didn’t like the way Dean’s character was portrayed when he made his speech about protecting Sam. His speech really came across the wrong way to me, even though I could understand how he’d want to put Sam first. I’m really looking forward to see how things play out with the tablets and hoping that the writers have something big planned for Dean this season. For once I’d really like to see both brothers having epic storylines and saving the day.

    Comment by Mindy — February 13, 2013 @ 10:30 pm

  27. Dean doesn’t even have one single teeny tiny story. One episode out of 23 that’ll be about killing poor benny isn’t enough for me.
    I agree that Amelia’s story was awful, but at least it was completely about Sam. Without Sam, Amelia’s character wouldn’t have a place in the show. But benny is a character of his own. He doesn’t need dean to be in supernatural world. He’s a vampire who escaped purgatory. He had two episodes completely about HIS past. He’s not dean’s story. He has a story of his own. Just like Cass, that at first was brought in by dean, but now, is a complete independent character that has an important part of season’s myth arc for him.
    Sam is a lead character so I can accept that he has a lot of good important stories for himself, Amelia, MOL and now closing the gates of hell.
    But dean is a lead character too. He needs good and important stories of his own too. I can be hopeful that closing the gates of heaven will be dean’s story; I just don’t WANT to get disappointed again. At first we thought purgatory’s flash backs were going to be dean’s story till the end of season and they were cool and brilliant but they were dropped after six episodes without a meaningful consequence for dean. Then we thought dean’s going to be the important brother in 8.12 but that was Sam. Then we thought MOL’s story will be about them both, but that was about Sam. Then we thought dean’s going to do the trials in 8.14 but that was Sam too.
    I’m not saying why Sam gets all the important stories. I’m saying why dean doesn’t get ANY story at all. From the first episode we knew this season would be about closing the gates of hell, now we’re fourteen episodes in and the main story that was introduced from the premier is a PERSONAL mission for SAM. I could be cool with it if they BOTH had a part in it like season 4&5, but not like this.
    I want you, to just look at the show from OUR point of view and you’ll understand why we are not satisfied. I actually liked the last three episodes. They were really good but I can’t be happy with the way everything is turning out. Everyone is more important that dean. Sam, Cass even Kevin each has a place in myth arc but not dean. Even benny had two episodes COMPLETELY to him. But dean didn’t even have that.

    Comment by bahar — February 13, 2013 @ 10:49 pm

  28. In my opinion, what started off as a potentially great episode ended up being the biggest disappointment all series, second to that of season 5.
    Sam fans don’t see what Dean fan’s see, so let me lay out some ground logic:
    S1: Find dad, kill YED. Oh btw: Sam has abilities
    S2: Dad saves Dean, but the rest of the Season is about what is coming for Sam, his abilities, and how to save him. Dean gets his 1 moment in his deal, but that is it. Even Dean’s love interest got shafted, and Sam’s wolf chick was better.
    S3: THIS should have been a Dean season. Breaking the deal. But they overshadowed it with Ruby, Lilith, and how Ruby could “Save Sam.” I won’t delve into Bella either. Combine that with the shortest writing season to date: Nothing for Dean except a 1 way ticket to Hell. Again, his 1 moment in the end where he can see demons.
    S4: Redemption! Right? Wrong. Dean gets pulled out, and his story of why is given a bench seat while the writing coaches call Angels and Blood Addicts to the court. Again, Dean had a few moments, such as a cool time travel episode, but really, it was about breaking/not breaking seals for Angels, and then Sam working with Ruby to free Lucifer. Yawn for Dean.
    S5: Destiny! Nope. Apparently, when you write how the world ends, you can have a back up final chapter. So who needs Dean to be the servant of God? The sword of Michael? Nobody, obviously. Adam usurps that role, and the again, most of the season is focused on helping “weak, powerless Sam resist the lure of the Devil.” That, and finding a way to stop him when Sam eventually caves. Dean’s greatest hits: chatting with Death in a pizzeria. Woo-friggin-hoo.
    S6: If this was a western, it would be the ugly, no good or bad. Just ugly. Storylines: Sam comes back, Sam hunts with gramps, Cas is 2 faced, Crowley is in on it, and Eve is some chick who dies super fast. Oh and HP Lovecraft, who is ALMOST a bigger role than Dean. Dean’s shining time? Going back in time (thanks Cas..) and killing a phoenix (which there was no good transformation of) and tricking Eve to bite him. But we saw that coming.
    S7: With S6 ending with GodCas, the first half the season was boring. Leviathans bored me. Except for their teeth. Braces anyone? So the story continues, we meet Frank. Cool guy, died too fast. Anything that Dean gets, Sam gets, because they are both being hunted. We lost Rufus and Bobby (twice) and yes, Dean get to give the Dick the snuff, but again, Dean only shines in the season finale, for 5 minutes.
    S8: Dean was in Purgatory, land of the lowest of the low. What do we see from there? He had help from a vamp and an angel, so not much badassery. Even though I wanted to see it. He comes back, fights with Sam, Sam is a bitch like always and keeps a sour attitude. So now they’re buddy buddy, and there is this MoL stuff. For Sam. Cool! That is RIGHT up Sam’s alley. Research, books, the laptop: the whole 9 yards. Then there are these tasks. FOR SOMEONE TO BE WORTHY OF GOD. Not the demon-banging, blood-drinking, family-rebeling Sam, but Dean: Servant of God, Vessel of Heaven, Sword of Michael. This is written almost 100% for him. But instead of Sam letting Dean do what he wants, Sam steals the glory once again.

    So Sam fans, now that we have settled the score, I think Sam has the majority of the plot points.
    You can see why I am upset. Among others. You can see why we post our upsetting thoughts and grief about this show. There is almost 0 love for Dean from the writers.

    By all means, support your favorite character. Just understand why we get upset.

    I do like the new badass Dean we got for the first 20 minutes of this episode. But I doubt they will do anything with him. I went into tonight with such high hopes, only to get crushed. However, interviews showed that the brother who does the tasks will keep secrets from the other brother, so I guess all along, we knew it would be Sneaky Sammy.

    Comment by Thomas A — February 13, 2013 @ 11:04 pm

  29. oh we’ve to trust Sam – again??
    Didn’t they just have to trust him in season 5 after the letting Lucifer out, season 6 after being soulless, season 7 when cuckoo and now season 8 after being a bit of a douche and we are to have him hiding the effects from Dean?

    When are the writers going to admit that Dean may now not be a grunt but he is an idiot to trust Sam.

    Comment by fazzie — February 13, 2013 @ 11:20 pm

  30. @29 But when Dean doesn’t trust Sam, then everybody in the story yells at him and blames him then the idiot producer like Kripke says that Dean had to learn to love Sam more. Dean is totally screwed.

    Comment by ORLY — February 13, 2013 @ 11:25 pm

  31. End of the series finale: Dean shoots Sam, burns his corpse, then drives off into the sunset…

    Sorry I was dreaming, what did you say?

    Comment by Thomas A — February 13, 2013 @ 11:33 pm

  32. I still think BOTH brothers will play a part in the trials… and for those complaining that its all about Sam..what was Sam supposed to do..?? let the hell hound kill Dean….????

    Comment by squidgy — February 13, 2013 @ 11:39 pm

  33. I seriously don’t know how these writers think. Don’t they know dean’s a lead character too? Or they think Cass is the lead and JA is the guest star? Do they say to hell with dean and all dean fans? Are they laughing at us behind our back right now because they think they surprised us?
    I know I’m getting a little paranoid but I always thought the writers would sit together and say Sam gets this and dean gets that, but no it’s more like Sam gets this, Sam gets that, ohh and Sam gets the other this and the other that, and if there’s a free episode left, it will be about Cass, Charlie, Benny and…. Who the hell is dean again?

    Comment by bahar — February 13, 2013 @ 11:46 pm

  34. @32
    We’re not blaming Sam, we’re blaming the writers. I actually liked that Sam got to save dean for a change, and I don’t care that he’s going to do the trials. That’s his story for the season. I can accept that.
    But you tell me, what’s dean’s story this season? What role is he playing in season myth arc, or the whole season for that matter? What’s the purpose of dean being there at all? Except maybe that he happens to be SAM’s brother.
    I expect the writers to count dean as lead character too, to understand that he has fans too, that he needs a part to play in the show, not just being there for the sake of being there.

    Comment by bahar — February 13, 2013 @ 11:56 pm

  35. You know, I actually wish I liked Sam better so that I could enjoy the show like you do. I’ve been a fan from the first season and I don’t like to give it up after eight years. But when instead of entertaining me, it’s only unsettling and frustrating me more and more, I think it’s better if I stopped watching it all together.

    Comment by bahar — February 14, 2013 @ 12:20 am

  36. Can all of you stop complaining for once please. When Jensen Ackles is not complaining about his role and his story lines why should you all.I’m sure the writers and the show runner know what they are doing. I also think as stars of a long running tv show, JA or JP would have definitely voice out their dissatisfaction with their story lines if they have any. So please STOP the bitching.

    Comment by Tammie Edwards — February 14, 2013 @ 12:24 am

  37. I watched it and gave it a go but after last night’s seriously I am done now.

    Comment by sid5 — February 14, 2013 @ 12:45 am

  38. @36
    JA isn’t complaining because he doesn’t care. WE are the fans of the show. The story line and what happens to characters are important to US. The actors are paid a great amount of money both ways and I think they’ll be happier if they had a lite story to get the time off and be with their family, especially now that they’re both goanna be dads.
    A lot of fans didn’t like “bitten” because Sam and dean weren’t the leads in it. But both JA and JP were ecstatic because they got the time off and in interviews they both said they prefer to be more of these kinds of episodes so that they’ll be able to have more free time (not like they’d been paid to work)
    If this show has been renewed for another season this early, it’s because of the fans and I expect the writers to at least return the favor by giving both leads, good equal stories.

    Comment by bahar — February 14, 2013 @ 12:54 am

  39. So far, Sam’s been dead, an addict, soulless, crazy and now sick. Is there anything they haven’t tried on Sam yet?
    At interviews JP is always enthusiastic and talks a lot because he has a lot of things to talk about. JA is always quiet and subdued because he doesn’t have anything to say.
    Are you going to dump a chick? No, that’ll be Sam.
    Are you going to be a man of letters? No, that’ll be Sam too.
    Are you going to be the brains? No, that’ll be Sam too.
    Are you going to be the brawn? No, that’ll be Sam too.
    Are you going to kill a hellhound? No, that’ll be Sam too.
    Are you going to do the trials? No, that’ll be Sam too.
    Are you going to close the gates of hell? No, that’ll be Sam too.
    Are you going to get sick? No, that’ll be Sam too.
    Are you going to be a hero? No, that’ll be Sam too.
    Are you going to kill Benny? YEEEESSSSSS GUILTY ME!!! But hey, that may be Sam too. Sam may kill Benny, and send a sly smirk Dean’s way for the hell of it.

    Comment by impala80 — February 14, 2013 @ 3:15 am

  40. Loved this ep. Really felt engaged and I think it’s because the focus was back on the brothers’ relationship. Only gripe is the directing this season. Was it just me or did Dean stop eating the burger just before his phone rang? Found that very distracting. Otherwise, great stuff. More please.

    Comment by Mega — February 14, 2013 @ 3:30 am

  41. I am so disappointed right now. Sam gets a story line for the rest of the season,really? it’s not fair.

    Comment by sara — February 14, 2013 @ 3:38 am

  42. hey carver, do you know some one named dean Winchester? haven’t heard of him? you know, he’s one of the two leads of your show, remember?

    Comment by jn — February 14, 2013 @ 3:56 am

  43. As I’ve always said, you CANNOT truly enjoy this show if you hate one of the leads. That goes for fans of either character. It’s a TWO lead show. If you dream of one lead shooting the other in the face or think the show has always catered to the lead you hate, then the show just won’t be enjoyable to you.

    And all I can say is the show has ALWAYS been about BOTH brothers to me. I have never looked at the seasons in the way you Dean fans have because I like both brothers. Dean has never been left out of the action to me. He’s had great moments and storylines on this show but if you can’t see that, there’s nothing I can do.

    There’s really nothing to say or discuss because you guys are coming from a way different perspective than me.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 14, 2013 @ 4:03 am

  44. SPN Fans will never be satisfied.

    If Dean isn’t the hero ..Dean fans get pissy…if no Castiel..Castiel fans cry foul play….

    and if Sam is Dean’s Shut up pie hole and backup ..then Sam fans cry..about.. SPN BEING the DEAN SHOW…Give me a break.

    I’am just happy we got 3 great eppies about the Winchester Brothers talking and working together.

    I hope Carver continues with this new path…and Dean did alot in this episode ..including getting the girl and the kissing.

    Comment by ozzie — February 14, 2013 @ 4:13 am

  45. @ 39

    JP is a such a friendly guy right from the very beginning but not JA. He was quiet and reserved but last couple of years he has changed and opened up it a bit which is good by the way. I love that Sam is the chosen one this time. He’s a little under rated and has been wall paper only for most of earlier part of this season. Love Dean too, but he’s been in hell and purgatory already. Sam was only trapped with Lucifer in hell. I guess its his turn this time. Let Sammy have this one. There is still the angel tablet and Season 9 to look for, then Dean will get his turn again. RELAX. Its only a tv show with fictional characters which I love so much by the way.

    Comment by Tammie Edwards — February 14, 2013 @ 4:13 am

  46. I am a viewer who has never missed one episode live since the Pilot of this show, so I’ve earned the right to say any GD thing I want to say.

    And what I am going to say is that I have not supported this show this long to watch Purgatory Dean turn into Lassie’s Timmy, or even worse, June Carver from Leave It to Beaver.

    I didn’t invest this much time in this show to watch Purgatory Dean clean house, decorate his room, cook lunch for Sam, and then go do grocery shopping for Kevin, the support actor.

    I didn’t invest this much time in a show to watch Sam be an assh***, as well as being a bad hunter this season and make consistently bad decisions for most of the series, suck God’s grace up in his arm and tell Dean that he is the best hunter he knows and if he wasn’t so stupid, he would see the light in the tunnel that Sam found with his true love, Amelia. Next step, given the predictability of this show and the do-over stories, Dean’s love interest will be introduced and at the end of the series, all live happily ever after.

    I didn’t invest in this show this much to see both Sam and Dean’s iconic characters turn into character sketches with a few strokes of bad fanfic written by 15-year olds brushed on them each episode.

    I’ll re-watch this episode, because sometimes I find that I liked an episode that I didn’t like better on the second viewing. But what I am watching for this time is to decide if I can possibly find any reason to continue watching this show.

    Oh, and don’t bother even saying to just don’t watch. That’s entirely my own decision and nothing you have to say will affect what I do.

    Comment by Sheri — February 14, 2013 @ 4:27 am

  47. @46
    Sam is always the chosen one. I can’t wait a year and a half for Dean to finally get a story. And if some one’s going to do anything about the angel tablet, I’m sure it’ll be Cass. If not, they will bring Adam back and have him to do something heroic. Who the hell is dean?

    Comment by impala80 — February 14, 2013 @ 4:28 am

  48. @45
    47 should be referred to 45.

    Comment by impala80 — February 14, 2013 @ 4:36 am

  49. Watching this show I just knew there was going to be a lot of disappointment when I came to read the posts. And I am one of the disappointed.

    First, the episode was written by my 3 year-old. Now I love my little boy but he can’t write yet so I don’t want him writing episodes of my favorite show.

    Second, Sam has been an ass almost this entire season. The last few episodes the character was written and portrayed much better. But, for me, that did not cleanse his actions earlier in the season at all. So when he smirked at Dean’s room and mocked on his cooking and then saved the day (and Dean) at the end it was a mix of disappointment, disgust and predictability.
    If the inept writers hadn’t turned Sam into such a jerk this season I don’t think it would bother me that much that he was going to take on the challenges. I know that Dean would not want him to be the one to have to do them because he would worry about him but it would be a sort-of-change for the characters and I might have found that interesting.
    But No. We get this season’s Sam now playing the hero. Doesn’t work for me.
    3) I did like the comments Sam made to Dean at the end (alot better than Dean’s earlier proclamation) and if it had been said by Sam from the past I would have thought it hit the mark. But this was said by some kind that didn’t blink an eye to go look for his brother; treated his brother like crap when Dean came back from Purgatory; and has belittled and mocked and blamed Dean since he has been back for every thing in the world. And now we are supposed to be happy THIS Sam (because there are so so many of them) is going to take the challenges and save the day- by himself.

    Makes me agree with those prior comments that the character of Dean is being treated like an occasional guest star on his own show.

    I am glad alot of people here enjoyed the episode. And they have had no problem telling us they liked it- and even why.
    But when I- and many others- say that we did not enjoy it and we express our reasons why we are told to “stop complaining” and “stop watching”.
    Sorry. I am not going to stop commenting and I am not going to stop watching.

    I have complained about this season since the first episode so this does not surprise me the way the season is going.

    But I would like some unbiased person to rationally tell me just what Dean’s purpose is in this season? He survived Purgatory and made it back to Earth. Then what? Oh, he became a punching bag for Sam and his friends; he apologized (for the millionth time) for something he had no need to apologize for; he was forced to abandon the friend who helped him survive purgatory (stupid move on his part); and he has now dedicated every second of his life serving his younger brother.

    Sorry if that doesn’t sound like an interesting role to me.

    Mindy (#26), bahar (#27) & Thomas A (#28): Good posts.

    Comment by SL — February 14, 2013 @ 4:37 am

  50. @43&45
    would you still be saying this if dean’s purgatory story was mid season final and he was the new MOL and the one to do the trials and to have secrets and become sick and be the hero of the entire season while Sam was just hanging there, killing time?
    if dean was the one to leave Sam to rot in purgatory and then try to kill the only person that helped Sam to escape and never apologize for it, would you still be saying this?

    Comment by impala80 — February 14, 2013 @ 4:45 am

  51. I’m glad that I don’t usually bother with character-specific storylines. Dean wanted to do the trials because he didn’t see, being the born hunter he is, how he could ever get out of this lifestyle alive. Sam was suitably horrified, a reaction I shared with him, especially with the “Dean being a grunt” bit.

    The only thing I wish for in the future episodes is that the brothers won’t lose each other like they did in earlier seasons (particularly the ones under Sera’s reign) and that they do the trials together. I think that’s very possible; after all, it’s just got to be Sam doing the results like, in today’s episode, actually killing the hellhound.

    As long as that is a given, I’m perfectly satisfied.

    I believe neither the writers nor the producers like to think in character-specific storylines. This episode implied that to me quite strongly.

    On that note, I’m quite saddened that, after all the time I haven’t been here, the general attitude, most notably the fight between “Sam girls” and “Dean girls”, hasn’t changed. Some of you who apparently still tend to overreact to the things other write.

    It’s just a TV show, people, and those usually don’t follow the fans’ opinions. It’s the same in the music industry: not the fans decide where an artist’s style goes, but the artist himself.

    And here: not the fans decide where Supernatural will go… the producers do.

    It’s truly sad, but that’s how it goes.

    Comment by Aero — February 14, 2013 @ 4:49 am

  52. @aero
    yeah, you’re right, the writers don’t follow the fans’ opinions. but it’s a free country. as much as you have a right to express your opinoin, i have a right too.
    we all watched the show last night. as much as you have a right to say you really enjoyed it, i have a right to say otherwise. i respect your opinions even though i disagree with you and i like you to respect mine.

    Comment by bahar — February 14, 2013 @ 5:00 am

  53. Ok I know I said I wasn’t posting anymore but seriously Casey, Lisa, and 45 Tammy? You can say, with a straight face, that Sam has been wallpaper?
    The guy who has ALL THE STORIES, ALL THE TIME? The guy who gets the emotional love stories, the mytharcs, AND gets to be the hero, every single time? The guy who is the ONLY one that Singer and Carver will, discuss in interviews? Let Sammy have this one? Really? As if he doesn’t ALWAYS have ‘this one’?
    Casey, Lisa, why do you keep saying we don’t like Sam? It’s NOT about that! It’s just pointing out what’s glaringly obvious and unfair. You’re right Casey, it IS supposed to be a show with two leads, it would be nice if the writers didn’t only care about ONE of them.
    It’s not that we want Dean to have everything. It’s that we want him to have SOMETHING!
    I can’t see how anyone can watch this show and seriously not see how Sam gets absolutely EVERYTHING all the time. I only watched this one because I was hoping they’d throw Dean a bone by giving him at least a Valentine’s romance but of course, Dean’s only good for cartoonish sex with monster women so what was I thinking.
    There. I know I’m either gonna get called names,insulted, told to shut up, or, yet again, accused of hating Sam.
    Tammy, your right. It IS only a TV show. But I’m taking it that you’re a Sam fan so that’s easy for you to say. Of course your happy, why wouldn’t you be? Your favorite won out yet again.
    There were some things I liked about the episode. It was nice to have Sam tell Dean some good things about himself. But I got the feeling that the writers just wanted to try to shut up Dean fans who they knew damn well they’d be letting us down again like always.
    So ok guys, be as pissed at me as you want to be. I said I’m gonna stop posting because I’m done with this show, and I meant it. I will try like hell to abide by that this time. I just had to respond to these one because it just had me scratching my head in disbelief. Sam fans take care and enjoy SPN, because it’s written just for you.

    Comment by roxi — February 14, 2013 @ 5:05 am

  54. Great episode! The show is getting its mojo back after the winter break and the fans seem to be loving it. I’m so glad. The speeches by both Dean and Sam to each other in this episode were very touching in that inimitable Winchester style… and it all felt like it fit perfectly. Nice!
    It’s going to be interesting how it plays out. Obviously they will both be involved in the last two trials as they were in the first one in this episode… that’s how it goes. I’m sure it won’t play out predictably, but I’m feeling that it will be really good. Looking forward to the rest of the season…

    Comment by Kaile — February 14, 2013 @ 5:21 am

  55. RO

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 14, 2013 @ 5:30 am

  56. Lisa do me a favor and don’t accuse me of hating Sam again, ok? Because I don’t. If they had done these trials together, I would have loved it. But the point is that they give Sam everything while Dean is only a supporting character for him and Cas. I don’t want SPN to revolve around Dean, but you sure don’t have a problem with it revolving around Sam, which it does.
    I mean, they were nice moments in the episode. Sam suddenly caring about Dean again and telling him he is a smart, brilliant hunter, yes, it was good to hear/see that. But in the end, Dean didn’t measure up, but Sam was special enough to pass the test. Like always. Can’t you understand why that would disappoint a Dean fan?
    The only thing I could hope for now is that Ellie will call Dean, wanting to be with him because she is scared and feels safe with him, them falling in love, Dean not being able to save her, and Dean getting that emotional scene that Sam got when he had to shoot Madison. I know full well this won’t happen. I am not gonna watch for a while and just read spoilers and see if I want to give it another chance. I never wanted to take anything away from Sam. I want him to have good stories. But must that always come at the expense of Dean NEVER having any story that matters, that shows the HE is special too?

    Comment by roxi — February 14, 2013 @ 5:54 am

  57. #53 Bye bye

    Comment by Carol — February 14, 2013 @ 5:55 am

  58. Here we go.
    @28 that was a very detail post, a well thought out argument. then you go ahead and post #31. Really?

    @38 I can not believe that you said JA does not care. Everyone here knows that is not true. Are they happy when they get time off? (your remarks about him not caring) Absolutely! but that does not mean he does not care. That was very uncalled for.

    @52 We respect your opinion and welcome your choice to express it. But we also would like for you to understand this the way we do. All we hear from some people posting on the boards is negative, negative, I hate Sam, Dean is not being loved. All the time, no matter what or how the show goes. It is the same thing. Please bear with us, it is just hard to respect your point of view, when sometimes others do not respect our own.

    I think that this is what @aero meant on post #51. It is ok to express your opinion, and that should be respected, but when it is “Sam fan” vs “Dean Fan” war time posting, It gets a little hard to swallow for either camp side. We can get very passionate when it comes to expressing/voicing our point of view. But sometimes we forget that other do not see things the same way and may disagree with our view. If we come out as posting a “strong” comment, it is expected that positive and negative reaction will be a result of the post. But when it is clear that some posting is being done in a hateful way, then you better get your helmet on.

    I really liked the episode. Felt bad for Kevin, he is trying so hard to get this done so he can get his life back.
    Dean was so happy to get his own room the way he liked it.
    Sam was eating that burger like there was no tomorrow, and I laughed when he came back to take the plate with him.
    I was also glad that a demon we know too well was the one that got the family to make so many deals.
    I have been very happy with the last few episodes and can not wait to see what comes next.

    Comment by Jose — February 14, 2013 @ 5:56 am

  59. @53 roxi? I am not calling you names, or insulting you because I can tell you feel very strongly. But please think about this for just one moment.

    (I can’t see how anyone can watch this show and seriously not see how Sam gets absolutely EVERYTHING all the time.)

    That seems to be the problem that we are having here. Just because you can’t see it any other way, it does not mean that others can’t as well.

    I don’t see it that way. I am not trying to be mean or argue for the sake or arguing. I just see it differently than you do. Other posters see it differently.

    That does not mean that I hate Dean, love Sam, think there is nothing wrong with the show, etc.

    I am sorry things are not progressing in a good way for you. I truly am. Just please, please keep in mind that even do you may not be able to understand it, others are enjoying the show.

    Comment by Jose — February 14, 2013 @ 6:09 am

  60. So disappointed. I wish I could burn this show out of my head with a flaming Q-Tip, because somehow I keep coming back to be disappointed even when I know it’s pointless to care about fictional characters. The sad thing is, I keep seeing other actors who’ve been on the show who now have really great roles elsewhere, and I keep thinking that’s the only thing good that will ever come from this mess.

    Comment by lost1 — February 14, 2013 @ 6:17 am

  61. @58:
    As Sheri mentioned, I too have watched every episode from Pilot, on premiere date, without fail. I called off work and skipped class to make sure I watched it. Loyalty there. So I feel as though I can say what I damn well please also.

    Here is the thing. I don’t hate Sam. I dont hate JA or JP. They are great characters and actors in all they do.

    But the writers are giving Dean a backseat role in EVERYTHING! How could last night have been set up for Dean? Have Sam pull the HH off Dean, and let Dean run up with the blade, pull it off Sam by the back of the neck, hold it up, insert cheesy Dean line here (“Let’s skin this bitch.” or “Play Dead Fido.”) I should write lines for this show.. And then Dean slits the pooch open and gets a blood bath.

    There. I just wrote it so Dean can have a role, instead of his 3rd season with no storyline so far.

    Comment by Thomas A — February 14, 2013 @ 6:20 am

  62. I’m happy – I have another season of my show to watch.

    I’m sad – Every episode is not going to go the way I want it to.

    I’m happy – This season appears to have finally turned a corner and is headed in a better direction.

    I’m sad – For I wish my (our) opinion had been solicited for that direction.

    I’m happy – For having viewed several episodes centered on the boys.

    I’m sad – Because when written well, I like the supporting cast of Benny, Cas, Bobby and Kevin.

    I’m conflicted – Cause I don’t know whether to be happy, sad or accepting!

    Comment by Beanie — February 14, 2013 @ 6:28 am

  63. @61 Thomas, you can as you put it (So I feel as though I can say what I damn well please). You are right, you can say what you please, and you have. But keep in mind that not everyone here agrees with it. I have also seen every episode, all of them.

    You described a great scene, I would have like to see it. But it did not happen. Now, why is it wrong for others to do the same? I see the show in a different way you do. That is ok as well.

    My previous post was regarding the way you changed the way you were expressing yourself. The first was a great argument to your point of view. The second was not.

    That’s it. No arguing or insulting intended. I was just expressing my opinion against yours.

    Comment by Jose — February 14, 2013 @ 7:18 am

  64. Yeah–I am simply saying what my reaction is, and I don’t mind or dislike Dean fans. It is perfectly OK with me that Dean has such rabid fans who enjoy the series largely through and about that character. I don’t think however I admire Dean for the same reasons some others seem to–and that’s perfectly fine with me. I actually enjoy your and particularly Sheri’s views. The fact that so many people are passionate in their particular view of SPN has been a key factor in keeping SPN on the air. Like Sheri, I watched every episode since the Pilot, and feel free, like everyone else, to state my reaction.
    I love the Dean character. Not because Jensen is so damn good-looking or such a fine actor or because I enjoy watching him work. I thoroughly enjoy the character and how he has mostly been presented on SPN. Network TV drama rarely features a working-class guy that showcases his smarts from experience and showcases his deep affection for his family and makes him the sympathetic center of the series. Guys like Dean with a working class background and little formal education are overwhelmingly represented on US network TV as stupid insensitive rednecks or stupid fathers, the butt of jokes in situation comedies. SPN has made Dean its real hero–at least to me. Indeed SPN has argued through Dean that men like him, who are hard working and not infused with the latest politically correct attitudes, are often instinctually the humans that hold society together and represent it best values. They, like Dean, deal with harsh reality, absorb its blows, get up, and go on, and no matter how badly treated or how much bad luck they get, they stubbornly refuse to abandon their basic values. They, like Dean, are the true heroes. It is not the guys who slay the dragon, save all souls, and do all the emoting to get attention that are the heroes. It is men like Dean who are the true heroes. Krepki understood that, Sera didn’t, Carver thankfully apparently does also. Dean, as depicted 1-5 and now, is a wonderful heroic character to me.
    I don’t want Dean fans to push SPN into turning Dean into a conventional hero; that would make him ordinary. I know you would say you are not trying to make him a conventional hero and I would respect you opinion; however, I would say you are. I don’t say that to offend you, but simply to offer my view.
    I also very much like Sam and completely reject those opinions trying to demonizing him, but I’ll spare you that opinion piece. And, I’m not in the least offended by your views; disagreement makes discussion interesting.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 14, 2013 @ 7:30 am

  65. I really liked this episode, it was neat to see them settle in. And I thought Dean pulling out a picture of his mom and him was so poignant.
    Its really sending the show into a different direction and I think its good, the end was really, again poignant and I cannot wait for the next episode. Both Jared and Jensen continue to excel!!

    Comment by Lucy — February 14, 2013 @ 7:30 am

  66. @63: Jose

    I can respect other people’s opinions, and I am sorry if my opinion discomforted you, or made you feel bad.

    I just can’t see how people complain that Sam always gets mistreated, when he gets the storyline almost every season.

    The reason the show makes you feel for Sam is because he goes through so much. And that is because he gets all the writer’s attention.

    Dropping all pretenses of favoritism, and looking back at all 8 seasons thus far: Who, in your honest, unbiased opinion, does it seem should have the story to complete trials from God?

    I’m not saying I want Dean getting every story for the rest of the series. I would like to see brothers working together. Hunting monsters, saving people, the family business. Season 3 should have been that season, with each bro. getting his fair share of story time. They each had a potentially good story there. But the writers chose who to focus on, and it showed. As it does every season, with the same outcome.

    I will watch this show until the series finale. I will enjoy the ones I want, and complain about the ones I want. I rarely ever come on here to complain. My posts are normally theorizing and speculating. And again, I’m sorry if my comment made ANYONE upset. But to be honest, I think the way that last episode was written upset more people that my comment did.

    Comment by Thomas A — February 14, 2013 @ 7:30 am

  67. Wow, you people are whiny. And somewhat blind. This episode was a mess. It felt like it was written by at least 2 different people but rather than collaboration, it was just a last-minute mash-up of the stories. Many episodes this season have been this way. Good characters come out of good writing and good acting. I think the actors did an ok job with what they were given, just they were given crap.

    All of this Sam vs Dean stuff is getting old. They’re brothers. Under the best of circumstances, most brothers are still rivals in many ways. Particularly if they’re forced to spend nearly all of their time together. Most couples that spend that much time together don’t last despite it being someone you chose to spend the time with and having the added benefit of sex as a stress release. So that the brothers don’t always get along is just normal. Having the brothers compete for who saves the world is also normal. The phrase sibling rivalry exists for a reason.

    As for Sam being the one who got the hellhound blood, it was likely before the episode even started. Why? Because, in case you haven’t noticed, they take turns. Dean went to Purgatory trying to destroy the leviathan. And based on the history of the show, it was VERY likely that it would be Sam’s turn this time around.

    My biggest issue with this episode was the scene where Dean set up his room. I think it was a great scene. But it became implausible after Dean’s speech about seeing no ‘light at the end of the tunnel’ for himself. He was, in his own words, ‘nesting’ at the library. You don’t go from ‘nesting’ back to wanting to die so quickly. There wasn’t any indication at the time that anyone even had to die for the trials (which will probably end up being the case, based on history) so it was a very unnatural transition. Not because he did what he did but because he seemed genuinely happy. If they had shown him suffering through an attempt at assimilation, it would be a different story. But they didn’t do that. They showed him happy. Like I said, it was like different people wrote different parts without any collaboration.

    But this isn’t how the show was meant to be. There have been 4 separate ‘generations’ of the show. The first was seasons 1-3. This is when the characters were being built up. It was about the past. Their father, their mother, the yellow eyed demon, etc. Then seasons 4-5 were where their story was told. Dean going to hell and starting the path to the apocalypse, the angels rising, the ‘end game’. Whether people like it or not, the show was meant to end in season 5. And it wasn’t meant to have a happy ending. If the show had not gotten renewed by in time, Sam would have stayed in hell. Seasons 6 & 7 were a very poor attempt at a reboot of sorts. The tone changed drastically from more dark to more brooding. There is a difference. And it was not a change for the better. Season 8 seems to be trying to put seasons 6 & 7 behind them. But it’s disjointed. The pacing is way off and there doesn’t seem to be a clear direction other than just ‘forget seasons 6 & 7′. This whole ‘Men of Letters’ idea, while a bit cheesy, could be a chance for a fresh start to breathe some life back into the show but it seems like they’re just going to wind up using it as a plot device.

    They need to get back to tighter writing. The first 5 seasons, whether they really did or not, seemed like they had a plan through the whole thing. Since then, it hasn’t seemed like they even had a plan from one episode to the next. The angels, for example. I think the people who complain about their inclusion are just clueless. I thought it implausible from the beginning that these 2 average guys could so easily get the upper hand on demons on their own. Angels leveled the playing field. I do agree that it would get boring if they always swooped in and saved the day, but that didn’t happen in seasons 4 and 5. The writing was just better then. But then they started this thing with Castiel being secretly controlled this season and then it just disappeared. You would think that after all of the time they spent with Castiel and dealing with the angels that if they thought something was up with him, they would want to have some idea of what it was. They also are playing a little too freely with the concepts of heaven and hell. For instance, the idea of closing the gates of hell…what does that mean for all of the souls that are meant to go there? Do they go to purgatory? Do they go to heaven? Do they simply no longer die? What about the demons that are roaming the earth at the time they’re closed? If they can’t be sent back, what does that mean? Now if it happened quickly, it could be argued that it was an in-the-moment snap decision. But after so much time thinking about it, you would think they would have some questions. And if they had access to an agent of heaven, ie Castiel, why would they not consult him? It just doesn’t make sense.

    So yeah, the show still seems lost. Hopefully it will be found soon as it just got renewed for season 9 and if they can’t lock it in by the end of this season, season 9 is likely to just be painful.

    Comment by mythos — February 14, 2013 @ 7:34 am

  68. @64 Casey:

    I agree with your opinion about the character Dean.
    However, if this was a show about modern heroes, and every day problems, then we could live with a hero like you described for Dean.

    The problem is, this show incorporates supernatural, mythical, and religious elements, giving rise to the fact that we NEED a hero to shine. We need a hero to overcome the astounding challenges and be a leader for everyone else.
    Sam did that in S5, when he took control over his body and put Satan in the pit.
    Given how the show is written though, it seems, to me at least, that every heroic scene is given to sub-roles (Kevin, Cas, guest stars) and not Dean. And I know some episodes tie over emotions, like Cas losing faith in s5, and the family motif in s1-4, and even isolationism in s7 with the loss of all their friends and familiar places.
    But does this mean that we, as fans of the show, cannot get stories for our characters?

    I guess I just feel frustrated how the show is written. Mind you: I will take back every word I said if Dean gets something going soon, and it carries over in to season 9. But I’m not holding my breath.

    Comment by Thomas A — February 14, 2013 @ 7:37 am

  69. Someone said one of the tests could be sacrificing someone you love, like Ishmael and Abraham. That could be interesting, Sam being forced to sacrifice dean to close the gates of hell. That would be ONE HELL OF AN IRONY.
    Look I love this show sooooo much; I’ve been watching it for 8 years. I don’t want to feel this way. I want to enjoy the show like the first five seasons. And if I’m complaining here it’s because I’m really upset and frustrated, and I want to vent my frustration somewhere. I’m not complaining just to be bitching (like some people have kindly mentioned. That was so nice. Really thank you.)
    I keep hoping that something will come up for dean. Whenever I decide to stop watching for the heck of my own mental health (!) I think of something that could happen and could be really cool and because of it I keep watching and hoping but so far every single time, I’ve been disappointed. And again I think that sacrificing test would be really interesting and because of it I keep watching to see it’ll happen or not. It probably won’t, but I keep hoping. I guess I never learn my lesson.
    Just think about it, by arguing about who takes the test they were actually arguing who gets to kill the other!

    Comment by bahar — February 14, 2013 @ 7:48 am

  70. @66 Hey Thomas, no worries. Thank you for responding to my comment. I can understand where you are coming from. And I do agree with what you posted. I feel how passionate you are and I think it’s Fantastic. That is why the show is getting season 9 and is doing good in ratings. Because, WE, the fans support it.

    To be honest about your question:

    (Dropping all pretenses of favoritism, and looking back at all 8 seasons thus far: Who, in your honest, unbiased opinion, does it seem should have the story to complete trials from God?)

    Honestly?, I think it was ok for Sam to complete the trials for God.

    The reason behind this is because Dean go to be Heaven’s warrior while Sam was playing Hell’s. I know, we can argue about a million different ways were Dean and Sam really did not want to play their part, but for the arc, Sam was delegated to by on Hells side while Dean was on Heavens.

    So, honestly I do think is about time Sam go to play on Heavens (or God) side for once.

    On post #68 (Given how the show is written though, it seems, to me at least, that every heroic scene is given to sub-roles (Kevin, Cas, guest stars) and not Dean.

    I completely agree with you on this. there have been some times when I wondered the same.

    Comment by Jose — February 14, 2013 @ 8:06 am

  71. im so worry about Sam, I read that Jared said on an interview that the chosen Winchester will begin to experience nosebleeds and symptoms similar to Tuberculosis and, as is the Winchester way, he’ll try to keep it from his brother.

    Comment by killjoys — February 14, 2013 @ 8:28 am

  72. @#57,

    You really think this is the way to go? To have people stop watching, stop talking about, the show? I know that there are a lot of unhappy fans out there and while I will concede that the story is the writers to tell, I think it would behoove them to concede that it’s the fans who keep them working.

    Imagine if everyone who is disappointed stopped watching, imagine that they all stopped talking about the show, what could happen? Well the ratings will more than likely drop and the show despite it’s early pickup could end up cancelled. Is that what we want?

    Laugh at me all you want. Point fingers and say that not enough people will stop watching to make a difference, go right ahead. I just can’t believe that it’s a risk some seem willing to take. Nothing is for certain in this life and if they want to play games then good for them, I just hope that we don’t end up being the losers.

    Is it really that hard to give Dean a chance to be the “hero”? To be the one who is chosen? Honestly, I don’t think it would be, but then again I can see past Sam.

    I can’t quit the show no matter how much I might want to. But, that doesn’t mean that I won’t support those who can. I try to be positive, although it’s harder and harder to be so. But, that doesn’t mean that I don’t support or understand those who aren’t.

    Nothings going to change. I personally think the writers and the PTB get off on the comments of hurt and anger as well as the fighting between the fans.

    I love Dean and it’s for this reason I won’t stop watching. I know he’s not real but he is the perfect blend of all that is good and evil in this world. It’s not his looks that pulled me in and keep me trapped, it’s his heart and soul.

    Comment by Aislinn — February 14, 2013 @ 8:28 am

  73. @roxi
    don’t stop posting here just because some people insulted you. you have every right to freely express your opinion. don’t let some haters impose you to do what you don’t want.
    a lot of us, including me, appreciate your posts and want to here from you again.

    Comment by bahar — February 14, 2013 @ 9:17 am

  74. @70 Jose:
    It’s all good man. Strong fan support is what it takes to keep it going.
    The reason I asked that question was because while Sam fulfilled his role (Yes to Lucifer), Dean’s arc was dropped for Adam. So he never got his chance.
    Sam got to play Hellboy, and I can see why you want him to get some redemption and be Heaven’s man, but Dean hasn’t had either opportunity, unless you count his stint in Hell, which again, was completely washed over.

    @71 killjoys: Don’t fret. Writers wont let anything happen to little Sammy. And hasn’t he learned not to keep secrets?

    Comment by Thomas A — February 14, 2013 @ 9:22 am

  75. Roxi – did you miss Thomas’s comment that he dreams of Dean shooting Sam in the face or Sheri’s admission that she doesn’t like Sam and never has or Haley56 or any of the other people who have made it abundantly clear they only watch for Dean? That’s why I can say those who hate Sam will NEVER enjoy this show. He’s a lead character and according to them (and you), the entire has only ever been about him. I’m not surprised they’re disgruntled. I would be too if I hated the character I believed a show was centered around.

    By the way, I don’t think this show is centered around Sam. It always been about the Winchesters for me. Despite what you may think, I love Dean. I want him to be apart of the action too, and I believe he will be. I have to wait and see how it plays out. I can’t say I have any complaints about last night’s episode. It was very entertaining to me, which is a lot more than I can say for the first 11 episodes. I’m a fan of the brothers bring together which is why these past three episodes have been so good for me. The brothers are together, and the story involves them.
    ——————
    Impala80, if you saw the midseason finale as being about Sam and his lame relationship w/Amelia, then that’s you. I couldn’t possibly care less about Sam/Amelia. I didn’t spend the break wondering what was going to happen between them because, frankly, I didn’t care! If anything, the finale was about the rift between the brothers.

    I also don’t see the MOL story as solely Sam’s story. Henry never said Sam, and only Sam, was a MOL. He said both Sam and Dean were legacies. The MOL’s story isn’t Sam’s exclusively. Dean is just as much a MOL as Sam. And even if I did believe the MOL story was solely Sam’s story, what has it brought Sam that’s so wonderful and special? All Sam has been doing is researching like he always has. All the legacy did was help Sam realize his role in the hunting world because he always felt out of place. I hope to see Dean getting more interested in the legacy too.

    And as far as the trials are concerned, I would have been fine with Dean doing them. It was never a competition for me. I just want a good story, and that’s what I feel I’m getting lately.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 14, 2013 @ 9:52 am

  76. @jose
    I understand what you’re saying and I thank you for being respectful to other’s opinion. But some of the other fans post here just to insult the other posters without talking about the show or characters.
    I NEVER insulted any of Sam fans. I only talk about the show and its characters. But a lot of posters called me and other posters, rabid dean fans, bitch, whiny… for our trouble.
    That’s why I’m saying we should respect other people opinions. When someone post something about the show that I don’t agree with, I will express my opinion politely and with proof and reason. But some of the posters instead of answering me likewise with respect and reason, just call me rabid, bitch and whiny just for expressing my opinion about some FICTIONAL character.
    I understand that we have different perspectives about the show, and I never insulted you or anyone else because of it. And if we really are wise, mature individuals, we wouldn’t be offending each other just because of a tv show that we all like.
    “The reason behind this is because Dean go to be Heaven’s warrior while Sam was playing Hell’s. I know, we can argue about a million different ways were Dean and Sam really did not want to play their part, but for the arc, Sam was delegated to by on Hells side while Dean was on Heavens.”
    That’s exactly why I think it wasn’t fair for Sam to do the trials. Dean DIDN’T GET to be Heaven’s warrior, Adam did. And Sam did save the day by trapping Lucifer in the cage. If we are keeping taps, IMO, it was dean’s turn to save the world.

    Comment by bahar — February 14, 2013 @ 9:53 am

  77. Ok, can’t stop talking about Dean. How badass was he figuring out how to kill Eve? And he was the one who killed the Phoenix and Samuel Colt wrote about it! He doesn’t need to be a “special snowflake” (btw, I hate that term)to accomplish what needs to be done. He just needs his brains and his skill. The demon knife and the colt don’t hurt.

    In case it isn’t clear, I also love Sam a lot. Like a lot.

    Comment by inky — February 14, 2013 @ 10:19 am

  78. #76: bahar

    “That’s exactly why I think it wasn’t fair for Sam to do the trials. Dean DIDN’T GET to be Heaven’s warrior, Adam did. And Sam did save the day by trapping Lucifer in the cage. If we are keeping taps, IMO, it was dean’s turn to save the world.”

    Dean would’ve had to say ‘yes’ to Michael, and as far as he was concerned, having seen what could happen to an archangel’s vessel and having seen the length the angels had gone to see to it that the Apocalypse actually happened, the definition of ‘saving the world’ probably would’ve left much to be desired – especially for someone like Dean, who despises sacrificing innocent people for the greater good unless absolutely necessary.

    That’s how this argument loses its footing for me.

    Dean could’ve saved the world saying yes, but then… it wouldn’t have been ‘him’, would it? And to what price would that have happened?

    Comment by Aero — February 14, 2013 @ 10:21 am

  79. @lisa
    I said once I say it again, hating fictional characters is better than hating real people for no good reason. Besides supernatural, we don’t know anything about each other and I’m just baffled how some people can hate other people just because they don’t like Sam or dean.
    And I, like Roxi, don’t hate Sam. If Sam was dropped off the show, I wouldn’t watch it for a second. From the pilot I watched the show for both of them, for the interactions between two brothers, because it was about family. At that time I was sick of watching love stories and wanted something new. That’s why I was attracted to the show. If instead of brothers, it was about a couple, I know I wouldn’t watch it. At least not at that time.
    And even if I prefer dean, without Sam there wouldn’t be a show for me. I just expect writers to recognize dean as a lead character too. I could be cool with Sam doing the trials if dean had SOMETHING else to do.
    And about MOL, like you said it yourself, if anything, at least it gave Sam a purpose, a hope for a brighter future. But we know dean doesn’t have a goal. His only purpose in life is protecting Sam and making sure he’ll have a good future then die. Where is dean now? What is he thinking right now? What does he want to do after closing the gates of hell? It’s all unclear. While we have a good enough scenario for Sam, dean seems to be confused, he’s just roving around, he doesn’t have a purpose, it’s like the writers don’t know what they want to do with him. That’s our main complain here.

    Comment by bahar — February 14, 2013 @ 10:28 am

  80. @76 bahar Thank you for your response. I actually see and agree with your reasoning. I would have been fine with Dean doing the trials.

    Honestly I really had not thought about it that way. Dean did not get to complete those arcs. I can appreciate that point of view. I enjoy coming here to read the comments and see what other opinions are, and when I do write a comment I try to not be judgmental or hurt or upset others with my words. But like you said, unfortunately that does happen.

    Hopefully the writers are able to surprise us all and produce some episodes that can more enjoyment to all fans.

    Comment by Jose — February 14, 2013 @ 10:36 am

  81. I liked the episode a lot. The moments between the brothers were my favorites. The emotional ones and the cute ones at the beginning. I liked the family more that a lot of you just exactly because they were over the top. I knew the manager had made a deal early on. Of course she wanted to spend her last night alive with Dean Winchester. There’s a waiting list for that. I am glad they saved her for now.

    I knew the question of who would do the trials would cause controversy. I am sorry that folks like behar and roxi and others aren’t enjoying the show. I don’t think Dean will be cut out, I hope not anyway. There are any number of twist possibilities. But I wonder if this is Sam’s redemption story for not looking for Dean and also not being able to save him in season 3. He is determined that they both get out alive which is a hopeful thought, at least for me.

    Poor Kevin. He had me feeling very maternal. Go to bed, young man. Are uppers a good idea???

    I love call backs to previous episodes. Crossroad Blues, of course and even What is and What Should Never Be.

    Comment by jace — February 14, 2013 @ 10:53 am

  82. @78 Aero
    At first, let me say that, I, unlike a lot of people actually liked “Swan Song”.
    I think the ending was really good, ironic and touching. When Sam jumped, I was crying like crazy (it’s really hard to make me cry) and if the show had been ended at that point, I would be a happy fan. At that time I never once thought that Sam shouldn’t had been the one to avert the apocalypse because at the earlier seasons I never had these feelings that they were neglecting dean’s character, even when they had Adam taking dean’s place in myth arc, I wasn’t upset or frustrated because it actually made the story more interesting. We all knew dean wasn’t going to say yes and bringing Adam back made the story more complicated in an interesting way, at least to me.
    And in the earlier seasons you could feel and believe the bother’s bond. I always used to think that the brothers don’t need to verbalize how they feel about each other; you could see it in their eyes. I used to tell my friend that this show is about two bothers that would do ANYTHING for each other, and I admired them for it. One of the reasons I was attracted to dean more than Sam, was because of his devotions to his brother. In earlier seasons I used to MELT whenever dean said “touch my brother, I friggin kill ya!” but in 8.12 when dean told henry that he would do anything for Sam, I actually cringed, because I can’t feel that love, that devotion anymore. And no matter how many times they verbalize these-not-there-anymore feelings, it won’t work for me. Something’s missing. You know what I mean?
    And that’s why right now I can’t accept that the writers are giving every single new story to Sam, Because before season six there wasn’t a Sam or a dean, they were Sam AND dean. Everything was about them both, whether dean would get the new story or not. But right now I don’t feel like that anymore. The writers should know that showing us a soulless Sam for half a year or having Sam not looking for dean when he needed help, have clouded my opinion of the brothers. I feel like Sam doesn’t care about dean like he used to, and that’s why dean’s protectiveness of Sam doesn’t sit with me anymore. They can’t show me half a year of the brothers fighting with each other, not giving a crap about each other, and just drop all that by them saying some cheesy “love you”s or “can’t live without you”s
    The brothers bond was what attracted me to this show in the first place and now that it’s not there anymore I simply can’t enjoy the show like I used to. Nothing seems good enough in my eyes anymore, because the core of the show is missing.

    Comment by bahar — February 14, 2013 @ 11:38 am

  83. Bahar – I certainly don’t hate you! Why do you think that?

    And I agree that people can hate fictional characters if they choose. Because Supernatural is really centered around Sam and Dean, I, personally, think it is difficult for those who hate one of the leads (Sam or Dean) to ever really enjoy the show. The character they hate will always be prominently featured b/c he is one of the two leads.

    And there are some posters here who do hate Sam and have expressed those feelings. You and Roxi may not be among those who hate Sam, but some do just as some hate Dean.

    I also agree w/you about Dean. I want to see him begin to see himself as Sam and others see him. Dean is a good person. I want him to know that. I want him to live for more than Sam’s happiness. I hope Carver allows Dean to find his happiness that has nothing to do w/Sam or Sam’s safety. Plus, I would love to see Dean delve more into the MOL legacy. It’s open to him. He’s not, IMO, shut out from it as the legacy is for BOTH brothers. And I’d be happy to see him heavily involved in the angel tablet arc.

    Honestly, as long as both brothers are involved in the action, and the episodes play out like these past three, I’ll be a happy viewer.

    I’m sorry you didn’t enjoy last night’s episode, and that you’re sad Dean didn’t get the trials. I really didn’t care who did the trials but I understand your position. Hopefully, Dean gets something in the future that you will enjoy!

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 14, 2013 @ 12:01 pm

  84. This episode foreshadowed the shows endgame I think…Sam will die and give Dean the normal life he never thought he could have, probably back with Lisa.

    The show has made the brothers somewhat on two different sides, Sam being on Devil’s side with the demon blood, going to hell, etc and Dean being on heaven’s side with the angel statue in his room when he was younger to being the vessel (even if he didn’t end up being the actual Vessel), etc.

    I don’t prefer one brother over the other but it kinda makes sense for Sam to be the closer of Hell . He’s been ‘destined’ for the dark side from the get-go, why not have him close it?

    As far as the MoL storyline, this is a multi-season arc that has only just started, the bigger picture is the legacies aspect of it I think. God specifically wanted Mary and John together. John was suppose to be a MoL and Mary a hunter. Their kids being a combination of them both. Obviously MoL geared more towards Sam. Hopefully as the season goes on (or next season) we’ll get a history of the hunters and that will gear more towards Dean.

    @Mythos Carver said he had a story in place through S10, didn’t he? I think this season they have too many arcs going on. Castiel, MoL, closing gates of hell it’s hard to focus on one of them. As far as closing the gates of hell, I took that as no demons could be on earth – but souls would still go there, unless I missed something that said otherwise – not that it was closed from souls entering, the gates to earth from hell were closed, meaning demons couldn’t make deals or be on earth/the human realm whatever you want to call it.
    They tried calling Castiel but he wouldn’t come so it’s not like they are avoiding him.

    Comment by CS — February 14, 2013 @ 12:13 pm

  85. Lesa1, when have I ever said I watch just for Dean? I haven’t and I don’t. Yes, I have made my displeasure with Sam’s behavior clear of late just as I have made it clear the fault lies with the writers. Sam as characterized though out the seasons would never not look for Dean. Yes I have said he tends to be self-righteous and at times egocentric. So what? He’s not perfect, who is? He has many great qualities that make up for these flaws just as Dean has many great qualities that make up for his flaws.

    Though I identify more with Dean than Sam I would not want to watch a Supernatural without both. Sam could not be replaced by Castiel, Benny or anyone else either in Dean’s heart or mine. Sam may mistreat Dean from time to time but little brothers do that. People tend to take family for granted, judge to harshly, and most of all overreact. Just because Dean doesn’t stomp off in a huff when Sam’s stepped on his toes makes him no less guilty of these sins than Sam. THEY ARE BROTHERS AND THAT’S WHAT BROTHERS DO.

    Yes I am disappointed that Sam will be doing the trials and for the same reasons as bahar. Dean has not had his opportunity to shine, his moments given to others or simply thrown away. this is not Sam’s fault it’s the writers.

    The writers, by creating a situation where one or the other must do the trials rather than tests that could be shared have propagated the Sam verses Dean battle. Wouldn’t everyone be much happier if Sam and Dean fans all routed together for their shared victory. I know I would gladly forget all the past mistreatment of Dean BY THE WRITERS if they were truly working together to save the world.

    For the record though Dean characterized Sam choosing Amelia over him it isn’t so. Sam chose normal, a life away from hunting. But could he? I say no and that is another injustice to Sam which must be rectified or I will continue to complain about it as I do all the injustices to Dean.

    Lisa1, I regret if past posts have mislead you regarding me feelings for Sam and hope the above gives you a better understanding of my position on Sam verses Dean.

    Comment by Haley 56 — February 14, 2013 @ 12:25 pm

  86. Sorry, in the second last paragraph it should read, “But could he abandon Dean?”

    Comment by Haley 56 — February 14, 2013 @ 12:28 pm

  87. @83 lisa
    I wasn’t talking about you; I was talking about people in general. Actually you’re one of the few posters here who always respect other people opinions.
    @80 jose
    That’s exactly why I love to discuss the show online. None of my friends and family members watch the show and I don’t have anyone else who I can discuss the show with. Despite all of our arguments and disagreements I really like this broad.

    Comment by bahar — February 14, 2013 @ 12:34 pm

  88. I would find it cool if Dean searched the “batcave” and suddenly found the angel tablet there. That’s what I’d call unexpected. =P

    # 82: bahar

    If you say it like that, then I can perfectly understand it.

    It’s just the constant bickering that’s going on here that saddens me.

    I certainly don’t want to stop anybody from expressing their opinion, especially if they’re dissatisfied with where the series is going, but the complaints seems dangerously repetitive to me.

    Not that there’s a problem with that, but if some people experience repeated disappointment, then maybe there’s a “fault” with their individual perception.

    I put it in quotes since this word isn’t exactly accurate. Their perception isn’t ‘wrong’ per se, but if it keeps them from enjoying the show as it airs, if they can’t let go of how it used to be in the early seasons… you know what I mean?

    Comment by Aero — February 14, 2013 @ 12:36 pm

  89. @ Lisa: I never said I hate Sam. Never once did I. I never said I watch ONLY for Dean. I never said the show centers around Dean. Get your facts straight before you put words in my mouth, and the mouths of others.

    That being said, Dean is my favorite of the 2 characters. But look at my other comments: S3 should have been the best to me, since BOTH bros had a arc, and worked together, not against each other. I don’t hate Sam, or Sam fans. I hate the writers who don’t let Dean finish his arc, and give it to other people, or ignore him when writing.

    @88
    Cas is tied in with the angel tablet, didn’t they say that already? While I agree that it would be nice to have Dean do something with it, they’ve already established that Dean doesn’t want to read the material in the MoL HQ, with last night’s episode. First 10 minutes I think.

    Whoever mentioned that Sam, being closer to Hell’s side, should close the gates: That is a rational argument. The only problem is: We’ve seen Houseman Dean already, with a wife and kid, and no Sam. He is miserable. Fan reaction to Lisa and (sorry here) Ben was terrible. (I liked Ben, aka Lil Dean, but I digress) They wouldn’t put fans through that again. Or at least, they shouldn’t. Suppose Sam dies, and Dean hooks up with whoever they introduce in the last 2 episodes. Then what? We have s5 ending all over again, trying to get Sam out of the pit while Dean eats his pie?

    That ending would be rehashed, uncreative, and boring. I like what someone else said. Close the gates of Heaven instead, and wrap up the loose angel ends. Give Cas either a final choice storyline (go to Heaven, or stay as a mortal) or find a decent way to write him off.

    Also, why should the person doing the tasks (I’m gonna say Sam, but maybe, just MAYBE, they could be a joint effort????) keep their “injuries” from the other? These bros have learned not to keep secrets by now.

    unless the past 2.5 seasons have been in Sam’s head while he was in the pit! OMG!
    Sarcasm there, if you missed it.
    But I wouldn’t put it past Adam Glass to pull that one…

    Comment by Thomas A — February 14, 2013 @ 1:09 pm

  90. @88 Aero
    Yes, I agree with you. I’m tired of this constant bickering too. Instead of discussing the show we are only picking at each other and I don’t like that. But I really LOVE to discuss the show with all of you like this.
    “I put it in quotes since this word isn’t exactly accurate. Their perception isn’t ‘wrong’ per se, but if it keeps them from enjoying the show as it airs, if they can’t let go of how it used to be in the early seasons… you know what I mean?”
    Yeah, I know what you mean and that’s exactly why I’m trying to convince myself to stop watching, at least till season final and watch the rest of the episodes together. But every Wednesday curiosity gets the better of me! After 8 years, It’s become an addiction for me. I can’t give it up however I want to.

    Comment by bahar — February 14, 2013 @ 1:23 pm

  91. @88 Aero
    And the other reason I can’t stop watching, is because it’s the only show I watch. A few weeks ago, I tried watching “walking dead” and “arrow” from the start, just to have something to replace SN with, but I gave them up after a few episodes. I know it’s pathetic but I really need an ENTERTAINMENT in my life!

    Comment by bahar — February 14, 2013 @ 1:40 pm

  92. Haley56 – Well, let me apologize to you for misinterpreting your prior statements. Thanks for taking the time to explain your position. I do understand. As someone who has been disappointed w/the emotional storylines and arcs for Sam, I get your disappointment w/the current turn of events.

    I love both brothers too, and I would have been fine w/them both doing the trials together or Dean doing them by himself. It was never a competition for me. I’m mostly concerned w/getting a good story.

    I also recognize that we both watch for different reasons. I could never say Dean hasn’t had moments to shine. To me, he’s had plenty of those moments. But I really do hope you get a plot you truly enjoy. It is nice to enjoy the show again. Prior to the last three episodes, the last episode I truly enjoyed was HCW. I want Dean to have an important arc/role too. I think it will happen for him! I really do!

    —————–
    Bahar – Thanks! I was worried that you thought I hated you or something! I hope you continue to watch and find something you enjoy about the show too!

    —————–

    Thomas – If you don’t want people thinking you hate Sam, then maybe you shouldn’t write that you dream of Dean killing him.

    But, hey, if you say you like Sam, that’s fine w/me. If you had told me you hated him, that would have been fine as well. We’re all free to feel whatever we wish about fictional tv characters.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 14, 2013 @ 1:42 pm

  93. @92 Lisa:

    I can see how that might have been misunderstood as me hating him, and I apologize if it came across as that. I merely meant that if Sam wasn’t around, Dean would get more stories. Which probably wasn’t the best way to convey that lol

    Comment by Thomas A — February 14, 2013 @ 1:59 pm

  94. Lisa1, @92, that’s it exactly, something important to the myth-arc. Something that identifies him as significant in his own right. It doesn’t have to be the trials, but something that has nothing to do with being Sam’s bodyguard and caregiver. He should be standing side by side with Sam but in the analysis of the plot points that is all he is.

    Comment by Haley 56 — February 14, 2013 @ 2:26 pm

  95. this damn show- i mean i was done-i was going to stop watching. i was pissed at almost everything about this show-from the actors to the characters to the plots -everything. i knew sam was going to get the trials. and that dean was going to be on the sidelines again. i was going to have this episode be my last and damn it- it gives me season 1-3. it gives me scifi-hellhounds!!! omg!!!! it gives me sensitive dean in the bedroom with all his guns and zepplin and his moms picture. it gives me those heart wrenching brother talks so reminiscent of s1-s3. and damn it-i had to keep watching. and now with all the feels i have to see what is going to happen. i know dean is getting squat this season. the heaven tablet is cass’s deal not dean’s -although dean may help cas out but it won’t be strictly dean. dean had his tablet-he had the leviathin tablet. but the feel of the older seasons just is drawing me in. damn it!!! addicting show-shame on you!!! lol.

    Comment by animal — February 14, 2013 @ 5:21 pm

  96. If there is dissatisfaction with SPN it is sure not being reflected in the ratings over the last three episodes. Total viewers have gone up 2.10 mil, 2.29 mil to 2.41 mil; three episodes ago the rating was .9; its been 1.0 the past two episodes. Three episodes featuring the Winchesters have been a hit, and it is sweeps month.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 14, 2013 @ 5:30 pm

  97. Loved this epi. I am hoping that Dean will have to do the next trail, and that the last one has to be completed by both of them. Loved the way the Hellhound looked really creepy!!

    I have to say I am not missing the angel storyline at all. It would be okay with me if it just got dropped.

    I still don’t understand why Carver didn’t have Sam look for Dean, but then he did have to transition from the train wreck that was season 7.

    Comment by mj — February 14, 2013 @ 5:33 pm

  98. So true animal @95. No matter how angry you are at the show it’s virtually impossible to stop watching. I was furious when at the last minute Sam came running in, enraged at the writers and angry with myself for believing even for a moment that it would be Dean’s turn to pursue his mission with zeal, energy and anticipation not growl his way through the season.

    Wait, I just had an incredible thought. Sam will suffer dire health problems as a result of his mission but what if it was intended for Dean. The Angels believed Dean was created to be Micheal’s vessel and Sam Lucifer but who said God told them the whole story. What if the tainting of Sam’s blood was indeed predestined but not to be Lucifer’s vessel or to bring about Armageddon. Is it possible that whatever makes Dean Micheal’s perfect vessel is what it takes to close the gates of hell without consequence and Sam was destined to close Heaven’s door. The roles are reversed and each suffers for having switched places.

    I can see the final scene. They are sitting on the hood of the Impala watching the stars and laughing at their interminable Winchester cursed luck……in heaven. Just a thought folks.

    Comment by Haley 56 — February 14, 2013 @ 5:44 pm

  99. CaseyT – I think the ratings have increased b/c the show has gone back to its roots in making the main story about the Winchesters. And these past three episodes have had, IMO at least, a very early season (1-3) feel. It’s been great for someone like me who has greatly missed the brotherhood.

    ——————

    Haley56 – I really don’t there was a “chosen” person to do these trials. It seemed like anyone could have done them. It’s not like the vessel story in that respect.

    Has anyone watched the clip from the next episode? Hilarious is all I have to say!

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 14, 2013 @ 5:53 pm

  100. @#67, Mythos – yes, the writers need to get it together. I’m definitely blaming them for taking the predictable route. As for Dean going from ‘nesting’ to “I’m a grunt”, it bothered me too but not for the same reason. Dean simply said he doesn’t see away out of the hunting life for himself. If one of them had to die to do this it was going to be him. He never said he wanted to die — that was Sam’s assessment and it didn’t look like Dean agreed to me. It just looked like he wanted Sam to stop talking. He doesn’t want to die but if that’s what it took he was willing. It is his job, and he’s been willing to put his life on the for the good of … Pretty much everyone else like always. I think it would have been a better story if Sam had been forced to step up and find a way to convince his brother to fight to save himself. Instead they went with having Sam in peril and Dean fighting to save Sam. Same old same old. I’m still hoping they have something in store for Dean that doesn’t revolve around Sam. A girl can dream, right?

    Comment by SueP — February 14, 2013 @ 6:28 pm

  101. I’ve managed to read through all these posts (whew!) and I think everyone is actually saying the same thing — with varying degrees of hope. Even those attacking the Dean fans for expressing their disappointment with the way the story ended are saying they “are sure” or they “believe” or they can see Dean having a part in the myth arc in the rest of season 8. That’s what the Dean fans are saying too. Can anyone honestly say Dean has a real storyline right now? He hopefully will be involved but right now, after this episode can anyone actually verbalized what that is? Saving Sam. That’s all there is right now. Speculation aside, there are no spoilers, no hints from the PTB. So until there is something concrete, something for them to actually look forward to seeing and get excited about it’s their prerogative to be dissatisfied with how things are right now. I’m one of them. I hope Dean has something other than Sam’s bodyguard to contribute for the rest of the season, but I don’t see what it might be right now. If it turns out he has something juicy to do, I will be ecstatic. But for now, I’m not and have every right to that disappointment.

    Comment by SueP — February 14, 2013 @ 6:55 pm

  102. It was dark, creepy and it made me jump. Something I haven’t done in a while. Don’t hate me guys. I really like it. Ok, I’m easily scared but it reminded me of the first few seasons. I try not to over analyze the show. I will leave that to all those before me.I just really liked it.
    Well done!

    Comment by barnkat — February 14, 2013 @ 7:00 pm

  103. I figured it out….Sam ‘s job will be to keep the gates of Hell closed ..because he is Lucifer’s chosen vessel and Dean might have to keep Heaven’s Gates closed ..because he is Michael’s chosen.

    So Sam keeps Hells Gate closed to keep Demons IN & Dean keeps Heaven’s Gate closed to keep Deamon Out.

    Comment by ozzie — February 14, 2013 @ 7:09 pm

  104. Lisa1 @99, anyone could kill a Hell-hound? I don’t think so. It would take a highly skilled hunter, one with experience with the creatures. Another involves incredible pain as in torture (Dean’s thirty years on the rack as apposed to the more physiological brutality Sam suffered.) All Dean’s experience is in hunting instincts and endurance. Sam is more a M.O.L. Knowledge, mysticism, intellectual as apposed to instinct. They are both hunters well honed each in their own way.

    To date they have been pawns in the hands of powerful beings and destiny itself. Pawns even of God. They have beat the odds and won battles but the war continues. Many have died, even thousands as they stumbled and struggled and the blood weights heavily on both of them. Through it all they have lost everything except each other and received no reward other than the burdens they carry.

    From a writers perspective the groundwork has been laid for a number of poetic twists of fate. To turn from pawns, “Angel condoms” intended to destroy the world to soldiers who meant to bring about a world in which the choice between good or evil truly is in the hands of man. (Heaven and Hell banned from the battle field) Dean is now armed with all the tools to win a great battle and Sam with his particular skills set to win another but nothing can be easy for any hero especially if his name is Winchester. In true Winchester style they end up fighting the wrong battle roughening the road. The final victory that brings about Gods plan ends with their deaths but they are not without reward as they share a Heaven of true soul-mates.

    No Lisa1 nothing has been shown to suggest this story line but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be good, satisfying for both Sam and Dean fans alike and the potential is there for it. I wouldn’t mind seeing them turned from pawns to destiny’s greatest warriors.

    Comment by Haley 56 — February 14, 2013 @ 7:13 pm

  105. This episode was great thoroughly enjoyed it, classic supernatural. Deans room was friggin awesome and those burgers looked tasty as hell. The HH looked cool. Sam seems completely back to normal, thankfully. It really doesn’t matter who does the trials if at the end they have to sacrifice their brother they won’t do it. The clip for the next episode was really funny.

    Comment by AW — February 14, 2013 @ 7:24 pm

  106. Haley: I would LOVE to see Dean do a task, then they complete the last 1 together. That would be amazing!

    Ozzie: Remember, if they do assign roles like that, and Michael is mentioned, they have Adam to fall back on..

    By the way: The part with Dean and the chick on her bed, when his face started warping:

    That was the FIRST time Supernatural has made my heart miss a beat and me jump from gettin a little scared. Kudos there. Nothing else has creeped me out from pure shock. Everybody Loves A Clown was kinda spooky, but I jumped last night.

    Comment by Thomas A — February 14, 2013 @ 7:51 pm

  107. CaseyT—this may be way too late and too many comments later to matter (it’s been a full day), but I didn’t want to let your reply go unacknowledged. First, thanks for clarifying your position. I have to confess that it seems a great deal of your posts lately seemed to be needling Dean fans for their views, and I’m glad to see there is a distinction between Dean fans and the rabid in your estimation. I’m still hoping I fall on the right side of the dividing line. I’m not sure the things you admire about Dean are that far apart from other Dean fans admire about Dean—maybe they prize them in a different way, or would like to see them showcased differently than you. I have no problem with you stating your reaction to the episode, and I didn’t mean to imply that if I did. I was simply questioning the slamming Dean fans for not being happy with the episode, but I’m hoping I understand better now.

    Case in point about Dean’s admirable traits, I think many fans of Dean do enjoy the fact that he is a working class hero. While sometimes he does serve as the butt of the jokes in comedy situations with the eating and the goofiness, that’s not a bad thing. Sam is the butt of the jokes at times as well—I think it humanizes them both. However, I’m not sure I understand how Dean being a working class, in the trenches hero would somehow be ruined if his sacrifices or actions took place on a scale outside of his family/brother. It doesn’t change who Dean is, and it doesn’t change how Dean deals with reality the way the rest of us do—by absorbing the blows, getting up and going on. Is Sam somehow lessened to an ‘ordinary’ hero because of his roles in the mytharc/show? Do you consider his conventional heroism inferior to Dean’s everyday, behind the scene, supportive heroism? At the moment, it seems like you only feel Dean is going to be a true hero if he stays in the shadows and doesn’t get the mytharc spotlight, because this would somehow make him conventional, and I’m not sure how that works in the construct of the show and in relation to Sam’s heroism. I don’t really understand what you mean and would like to see your perspective more clearly, so I hope you don’t take this as insulting.

    Personally, I find little point in demonizing fans who demonize your favorite character. They’re allowed to their opinion, just the same as the rest of us. I’ll admit that sometimes it is impossible to respond to, but blasting the fans rather than the argument doesn’t seem like the best way to get a point across. Mileage varies, of course, but I admit that I find reading your opinions on Dean a lot more interesting and thought provoking than reading hate for fans whose opinions offend. If you look at this thread, it became a lot more productive and interesting after everyone stopped trying to invalidate the opposition’s opinion and actually started discussing. I think it serves us all better.

    Comment by yeah — February 14, 2013 @ 8:25 pm

  108. Haley – all I’m saying is there was no “chosen” person to do these tasks. Some are upset b/c Sam was “chosen” to do the tasks, but that’s not what happened. Dean was going to do the tasks. It just so happened that Sam ended up completing the first one so he HAS to complete the others. There was nothing special about Sam or Dean that allowed them to take on this challenge.

    We will have to agree to disagree. From what I saw, any hunter could have been the one to do the tasks. They did not set up the story so certain criteria had to be met to do the tasks. It wasn’t like the vessel story or when the WOB had to be killed. Someone just had to do the tasks. That’s all.

    I heard nothing from Kevin to suggest it had to be Sam or Dean and not Garth or Bobby or John if they were still living. Someone just had to complete the tasks.

    And, IMO, the hardest part about killing a hellhound is seeing it. If Garth/Rufus/Jo/Ellen had some hellhound-vision glasses, I’m sure they could have killed one too.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 14, 2013 @ 8:32 pm

  109. Lisa1, I think when people say Sam was the chosen one, they are generally speaking in terms of the PTB, saying he seems to be chosen by them to take on the bulk of the mytharc tasks. I don’t think it’s a matter of fate/destiny/whatever choosing Sam as much as it was the writers, and it was very much their choice.

    Comment by yeah — February 14, 2013 @ 8:47 pm

  110. Read before posting, yeah. So, yes, that is specifically what Haley was saying. The lesson here is don’t project onto others’ posts. Sorry to jump in–please disregard.

    But while I’m here . . . I think you both could be right in a way. I’m not sure we’re supposed to think that just anyone could kill a hellhound as long as they have the right eyewear. For example, the Dallas redux family wouldn’t have lasted 10 seconds, in my own opinion. So I do think that hunting skills were a prerequisite for killing a hellhound, and therefore in taking on the trials. At the same time, there is no indication that this is something specially tailored for Sam and/or Dean in terms of the set up in the trials themselves like there was with the vessel storyline (for Sam, anyway–Dean turned out to be exchangeable).

    Comment by yeah — February 14, 2013 @ 8:52 pm

  111. one thing i never understood about the vessel story is that Sam,Dean and Adam, all were john’s sons.it means all three of them should have been able to be both Micheal and Lucifer’s vessel. Sam was overpowered with drinking demon blood but Lucifer should have been able to use (a better word?) Adam and dean as well, like his other vessel that was falling apart.(i don’t remember his name right now.)

    Comment by bahar — February 14, 2013 @ 10:34 pm

  112. If one of Sam’s tests will be sacrificing someone you love, i could be cool with dean not having any other story.
    Because let’s be realistic, we are on our way to the 15th episode, if there was going to be any story for dean it should have been mentioned by now, there isn’t even any spoilers about dean. All I’m saying is that all of us have been disappointed by the last episode because we were WAITING for dean to kill the hell hound. If we were watching it without any hopeful anticipation, I think we could have enjoyed it a lot. And if we want to enjoy the rest of the season we should stop hoping for dean to get a good equal story, because it’s likely that he won’t, At least not this season. We should accept that, if we want to enjoy the remaining nine episodes.

    Comment by bahar — February 14, 2013 @ 10:49 pm

  113. Thought: If you have to sacrifice someone you care about, will Sam sac Amelia?

    Or maybe Dean gets to do that one, and has to sac either Benny or Cas? Interesting

    Comment by Thomas A — February 14, 2013 @ 10:56 pm

  114. @96 CaseyT
    I’m really glad the rating is improving and I hope it’ll make the writers understand that they should involve the brothers more in the myth arc. Last episode had a lot of viewers because everyone wanted to find out which brother would take the tests.
    And I think the ratings of each episode represent the satisfaction with its former episode.
    Other than that I never said I didn’t like this episode. IMO, the last 3 episodes were really good, I am just really disappointed that dean didn’t get to play any part in closing the gates of hell. I’m upset because the writers made the whole season’s story, Sam’s PERSONAL mission. I didn’t like that they cut dean off the show like this, yesterday I watched it again and I actually liked it because I knew Sam was going to kill the HH. Our complains is from getting our hope crushed, not from disqualification of this episode.

    Comment by bahar — February 14, 2013 @ 11:10 pm

  115. @113 Thomas
    I meant dean. Sam and dean would never sacrifice a girl. I’m saying with all the things Sam said about the light at the end of the tunnel, let me get you to it… it would be really ironic if the final test was Sam sacrificing dean! And I could live with that if dean doesn’t get any other story. But I’m sure it won’t happen. with Sam getting sick it’s really unlikely.

    Comment by bahar — February 14, 2013 @ 11:19 pm

  116. @113 Thomas
    Now that you mentioned it, what if the final test is sacrificing someone you love and the angels force Sam to sacrifice Amelia? I would be really really disappointed.
    But with these writers anything is possible. That may be why they wrote Amelia in the story from the first place. That’s why they’re saying everything will be tied together at the end. Ohhh noooooo!!

    Comment by bahar — February 14, 2013 @ 11:23 pm

  117. Imagine at the last scene of the season, a sick, coughing-blood, nose-bleeding Sam is holding a blade to a crying Amelia’s throat and is debating with himself he should do it or not, that’s when the screen will black out… season final cliffhanger and dean’s nowhere to be seen…

    Comment by bahar — February 14, 2013 @ 11:44 pm

  118. I´m a Dean, Sam and Cas fan, and I like all 3 characters the same.. but in the end it is always about Sam.. That is not even an opinion, it´s a fact. But, despite the fact that Sam saved Dean and killed the hellhound, which we all expected, I love this episode.

    Comment by Robin — February 15, 2013 @ 12:26 am

  119. the writers are sitting together to write a story for the season, for Sam they think of man of letters, doing the trials, having glowing arms, being sick and a hero by closing the gates of hell. For dean they don’t think of one single tiny story. Why???
    we had sick, crazy Sam for seventeen episodes last season, did we REALLY have to have another season of sick Sam?
    And please don’t tell me MOL is about them both. It’s obvious they wrote that story solely to give SAM a mission for life and dean is back to being a suicidal alcoholic. I bet you from the next episode he’ll start drinking again to ease the CRUSHING pressure of WORRYING about precious Sammy because he’s not good enough for anything else.

    Comment by impala80 — February 15, 2013 @ 1:21 am

  120. If two months ago, they’d asked JA what’s going to happen to dean next, Of course he’d be quite. Nothing was supposed to happen to dean. But if they’d asked JP, of course he’d be happy to answer because a lot of things were going to happen to Sam.
    I get it now. From the first episode all carver and singer talked about, was Sam, we said they don’t want to give anything about dean away, they want to surprise us. What a disappointment…

    Comment by jen — February 15, 2013 @ 1:50 am

  121. Yeah – I disagree w/you about Dean and the vessel story. Dean was the “true” vessel. Adam was just a substitute. The only reason Michael chose Adam is b/c Adam happened to be there when he came down.

    If Dean was exchangable, I wonder why people don’t also feel that way about Sam? Lucifer wasn’t in Sam until the very last episode. Before that time, he was in that guy – Nick, I believe. Unlike Michael, Lucifer seemed willing to wait for his “true” vessel. Michael just took what was there to get the show on the road.

    ———–

    And I know I should let this go, but Sam was NOT – at least in my opinion – shown being sick for SEVENTEEN STRAIGHT episodes last year. He was shown w/problems for FOUR episodes. The other time he was perfectly fine and normal. I’m sorry but occasionally rubbing your hand is not a mental breakdown.

    Again, just my opinion.

    Anyway – that’s just my take on it.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 15, 2013 @ 3:13 am

  122. @lisa
    “And I know I should let this go, but Sam was NOT – at least in my opinion – shown being sick for SEVENTEEN STRAIGHT episodes last year. He was shown w/problems for FOUR episodes. The other time he was perfectly fine and normal. I’m sorry but occasionally rubbing your hand is not a mental breakdown.”
    Why do you think you should let it go? you have a right to say your thoughts too. And I agree with you on this one. We didn’t see a sick Sam for 17 episodes last season. I don’t think we’re gonna see a sick Sam this season either, Maybe in the last episode. How is he going to hunt if he’s sick?

    Comment by bahar — February 15, 2013 @ 3:28 am

  123. Lisa1–The reason I’d say only Dean was shown to be interchangeable for the vessel storyline is because when the chips came down, he was the only one who was. From beginning to end, Lucifer maintained that he had to have Sam as his vessel, that he wanted Sam as his vessel, and that he wasn’t going to make his big move to destroy humanity and rid the world of its scourge without Sam. He started stepping up his game with Pestilence and whatnot, in my opinion, to flush Sam out and force the situation. Nick was serviceable until he got his true vessel, but Lucifer never lost sight of what he actually wanted, which was to have his true vessel in Sam. So at the end of the season, Lucifer got exactly what he wanted, and he ended up with his true vessel for the final climax.

    On the other hand, heaven and Michael decided that, hey, we don’t really need Dean, because his brother will do just as well. Michael wasn’t as keen on having his true vessel as much as he wanted to fulfill the prophecy just as he thought he was supposed to. So Adam turned out to be just fine for him. That’s why Dean was exchangeable, but Sam wasn’t. We saw this play out on screen–as far as Michael was concerned, Dean was no longer part of the story, but the big climax didn’t take place until Sam was Lucifer’s vessel.

    So yes, the reasons you cited are exactly why Dean was exchangeable and Sam wasn’t. Sam was deemed necessry as a vessel for the final showdown, and Dean could be replaced at the last minute by someone else. We can agree to disagree, but yeah. That’s exactly the reason for me.

    Comment by yeah — February 15, 2013 @ 4:19 am

  124. Bahar – I suppose I just didn’t want to get in some long debate w/Impala80 about Sam’s storyline last year. IMO, it was poorly executed. If I had tuned in the middle of the season, I would have never known Sam was hallucinating on a 24-hour basis. That was the problem w/that “story.” They could have shown little hints of Sam’s problems, but he was perfectly fine until they needed him to “break down,” and then it was resolved in a single episode. The consequences of Sam’s Wall falling was the story I was most interested in last year. Needless to say, I came away greatly disappointed.

    —————

    Yeah – I just never saw it as Dean being unimportant to the story. He was the true vessel, the one Michael really wanted, but he refused to say yes, and Michael was unwilling to wait for him.

    I think that speaks more about Michael and his personality than Dean’s importance. I hear what you’re saying, but it never played out that way in mind.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 15, 2013 @ 4:36 am

  125. (cont) I think Dean was necessary to the fight. I think Michael was going to lose when they fought b/c he wasn’t in his true vessel. But Michael seemed very full of himself, eager, and impatient. That would have been his downfall.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 15, 2013 @ 4:39 am

  126. Dean’s story in season 8 was to get Benny started …to introduce Benny to SPN Fans & then we saw their bond & Sam’s dislike for the vamp frenenmy and we saw his past…his gf & grandaughter and Benny kill Martin…so that was DDean’s story…and Sam’s story was boring Amelia and then we got 2 eppies named after and about Teen Kevin and 2 about Castiel and Naomi and 1 about Charlie…and 1 abou Garth and 1 about strangers in ”BITTEN”.

    Kevin,Garth,Benny, Charlie ,and Amelia are coming back…people…and when Benny returns then it will be Dean upfront being used to tell his story shared with Benny the vamp.

    Wel

    Comment by ozzie — February 15, 2013 @ 4:51 am

  127. @lisa
    At least Sam had a storyline, albeit it was handled poorly. But dean didn’t even have that. In season 6&7 and now 8 he’s been completely forgotten as a lead character. It’s true that he had shining moments like killing Dick or Eve, but that’s what they were, MOMENTS. And they were just monsters. It’s like we count killing a vampire or salting and burning a corpse in a random episode a seasonal arc. And the other difference is that Sam’s stories always have lasting effects. When dean came back from hell he was just a normal person that angels were interested in. true that he broke the first seal in hell but it didn’t have any effect on dean but making him wallow in guilt and self-loathing. But when Sam came back from hell first he was soulless, then he had the wall then he had the hallucinations that lasted for two seasons just because of hell. Dean went to purgatory, he came back COMPLETELY normal except maybe a little edgy and as we realized in this episode, still suicidal. Dean killed Eve by eating phoenix ashes and that’s it. Sam kills a hellhound and now is going to be sick and probably gain new powers. That’s the difference between dean and Sam’s stories (of course when dean HAS any story.)

    Comment by bahar — February 15, 2013 @ 5:09 am

  128. For me, Lisa1, there’s a difference between saying Dean was exchangeable as an angel vessel and saying he wasn’t necessary to the overall climax (though some can and do dispute that as well). I wasn’t debating that–it has more to do with the writing than what transpired on screen. For the climax, Sam had to become Lucifer–he had to accept his destiny, and the final showdown could not move forward without Sam becoming a vessel. The same cannot be said for Dean, who was easily replaced by Michael. Now, we can say Michael would have lost because he didn’t have his true vessel, but since show opted for not having even the beginnings of an angel battle in its climax, that’s all supposition.

    Though when you think about it, in terms of writing this reflects this season rather well. For all the PTB’s lofty talk at the beginning of the season about Sam’s human story and how it was important, they’ve scuttled it completely and gone back to the security blanket of Sam being the center of the mytharc. For all the talk about purgatory’s affects on Dean, that, too, has been almost completely discarded–most all of his PSTD, his newfound sense of purpose and confidence in himself as a hunter, and his ability to move on without Sam have all disappeared. This episode put him right back in ghosts of characterization past, and his role to support Sam while learning another lesson–just like S5.

    Now, perhaps show will try to break the mold and give Dean a more active role this season than he ended up having in S5. But right now, this looks exactly the same, and since that storyline taught him nothing about his self-worth, I’m not sure how this role give him some kind of character growth. He’s right back in care-giver/support mode, and expecting different results from the same scenario is kind of the definition of insanity.

    Comment by yeah — February 15, 2013 @ 5:20 am

  129. @ozzie
    As you said it yourself, purgatory was completely about Benny, he was the one that figured out how to get out, and after they came out the writers decided to show us HIS history, HIS girlfriend, HIS granddaughter, they made us to be sympathetic with him because of all the wrongs that had been done to him by the universe while the only thing he wanted was a normal life. Then they decided to make Sam an a** by trying to kill him, then they made dean an a** by abandoning him, then they decided to completely drop the issue till unseen future. What was the point of all of this? Couldn’t they write something interesting about purgatory for dean, so that dean fans wouldn’t be this disappointed right now? Couldn’t they, instead of writing a cheesy love interest for Sam, have him to actually look for his brother like he should?

    Comment by bahar — February 15, 2013 @ 5:26 am

  130. 117 @ bahar : oh my god , i don’t want even think about it.if this is will going to happen , no way ,that i can watch the show anymore although i have to accept that , it’s so hard for me to do that because i watched the show from the beginning.
    i am disappointment right now because of the same reason that you mentioned before ,and i can’t take another shock like this from the show.i know ,there is no trial for dean to close the gate of heaven ,if it was , somehow it should mention until right now.
    my last hope is what did u say about scarifying dean on the last trial.i hope the show , at least give us that on.

    Comment by Mina — February 15, 2013 @ 5:32 am

  131. @130 mina
    It’s just a guess. I, too, hope it won’t happen like that. But we, Dean Fans, are unlucky. If there’s ONE thing that we don’t want to happen in the show, it probably would.
    But I can be hopeful (I never learn!), maybe dean is the one to close the gates of heaven and that’s why the angels wanted Cass out of purgatory. Because he’s the only angel that dean trusts.
    But I guess if Sam’s forced to sacrifice dean as the final test, I’ll be content. Of course that way we wouldn’t be getting anything for dean till the last episode but it’s a way to bring dean back in the story. So I keep hoping.

    Comment by bahar — February 15, 2013 @ 5:51 am

  132. @131 bahar
    i completely understand you about how unlucky we Dean Fans are.because whatever we guess that happen in the show , it’s not going to happen.from the start the show until now,its got to be the regular routine for us.
    but considering no hope , i guess this season , it’s going to look like season 5 ends.but this time dean still hunting because carver told us before, that dean can’t stop hunting and he wants some peace for him.but if this is going to happen , i think it’s not even close to peace for dean , because he never left two thing in his life : his family and hunting and this is going to hard for him again.

    Comment by Mina — February 15, 2013 @ 6:25 am

  133. @CS(#84) – Carver may have said it but if he does, it’s not clear from the writing on the episodes so far this year. And presumably the gates of hell would be the same as the gates of heaven. Based on all christian lore, if the gates of heaven are closed, no one gets in or out. The assumption would be that the gates of hell worked the same way. Presumably this would also mean that souls sent to hell would ‘sit outside of the gates for all of eternity’ as the same is true for the gates of heaven. But they didn’t cover it. Obviously the show doesn’t have to follow real-world christian lore so the fact that they left this unclear is a major oversight in my eyes. And did they try to call Cas? If they did, I must have missed it. It doesn’t really fit that Cas wouldn’t respond either, though. Closing the gates of hell seems like something that the angels would definitely have an interest in one way or another.

    @SueP(#100) – I disagree about Dean. Again, the bedroom scene, he seemed happy and calm. Compare this to a soldier returning from war whom is uncertain about their future. If you’ve never known one yourself, they don’t seem particularly happy or calm. They will smile occasionally and even crack jokes. But always with a certain uneasiness. People whom have been through that sort of stuff, whom are having trouble adjusting back to regular life, never seem that comfortable and they don’t tend to ‘nest’. It just didn’t fit. And he did seem like he wanted to die. Like he sees it as his only way out of a life that he’s tired of living. Now you could be right as far as their intent in the story but it didn’t really come across that way.

    And as for the Sam story vs Dean story thing…you all need to let that go. The story has always been about both of them. Dean and Sam have both been equally relevant to the story from the beginning. What people should be upset about is that this seems to be a repeat of season 5 only not as good as the original.

    Comment by mythos — February 15, 2013 @ 7:09 am

  134. yeah–thanks for the reply. I was a little over the top with people being so outraged that Dean did not get the trials. I appreciate your reply.

    I was simply a little frustrated by some Dean fans. There is a group of Dean fans who take on the persona of a little Dean and speak for him as a demanding, dominant sibling who demands and throws a fit if he doesn’t get everything little brother gets. If Sam is smart; Dean must be told he is smarter; if Sam gets a compliment, Dean must get the same or greater compliment; if Sam gets anything Dean must get it also. Worse, it is as if all toys in the brother’s toy box are Dean’s and if Sam has any toy, that evil little bastard Sam has stolen it from Dean. IMO, some sharing training is needed. Dean cannot get everything; Jensen cannot be everything and everything to everybody. Give this marvelous actor a break.
    Secondly, I don’t buy that Dean has not been, in addition to the heart of the series, a conventional action hero. Who killed Yellow Eyes, the big bad of seasons 1-2? Dean. Who killed Ruby, the big bad of seasons 3-4? Dean. Who killed Alistair? Dean. Who persuaded Castiel to take the side of humans? Dean. Who died temporarily to save Sam from soullessness in 6? Dean. Who killed Dick, the big bad of season 7? Dean. I could go on with is heroic actions, but it needs to be said to those who have only recently joined SPN that the idea that Dean has not been the hero is simply inaccurate. In all seasons except 5, Dean killed the big bad. The great overwhelming moments of heroic action in the series have been almost exclusively Dean’s. Only in 5 did Sam jump in hell and trap Lucifer; only once has Sam bagged the big bad–and he did that only after Dean gave him permission. All other times in the history of the series disposing of the big bad has been Dean. Perhaps repeating that Dean hasn’t been the conventional action hero will make some people believe that, but it is not true.
    Having said all that, I agree Dean hasn’t had a good separate action story in years. I think that is a waste of Ackles talent and been a negative for the series. Maybe given Sam’s speech we will get to see Sam saving a suicidal, out-of-control Dean; we did see that somewhat in the last episode. I also agree that the Amelia story was awful and that the explanation for Sam not looking for Dean was/is crap. But, I am so pleased with what has happened the last 3 episodes I can forgive if not forget it. It is again about two brothers and that is the SPN I like.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 15, 2013 @ 8:52 am

  135. Casey.

    I’ve enjoyed the past 3 episode too.
    And I agree, Dean has heroic moments. Moments. That’s all they amount to.

    Give Dean a storyline. Here, I’ll make one up.
    Suppose when closing the gate of hell, Lucifer is freed (idk how, but that’s minor details) and someone has to stop him. The season can go on with trying to find a way to stop him/stop him from opening the gates again, and trying to save the souls from being damned to wait forever. So once they find a way, give Dean and Lucifer a choreographed angel blade fight that ends either with Dean triumphing over Satan, or a cliffhanger of sorts.

    There. A story IDEA in 5 minutes. Not full planned, but an idea.

    Not Sam coming in to save Dean, who tripped and fell during a heroic action. Not Cas, deus ex machina-ing the problems. Dean, the warrior, ending the season with a gesture of knighthood, or bravado, or w/e you wanna call it.

    That would make me, as a Dean fan, happy. Let Sam do his MoL research (which he has done since season 1) and find a solution with Dean, and then let Dean execute the plan. Tada, everybody gets a role, and then Dean gets a chance to finish it up.

    Comment by Thomas A — February 15, 2013 @ 10:53 am

  136. Dean has never lived a normal life so why would he suffer from ptsdfor as long as a noobi recruit coming back from war. Dean is not comparable to that. Of course he will recover faster than most he is more used to fighting than most soldiers would be. He has basically been a soldier since he was six. So it does seem to fit fine to me.

    Comment by AW — February 15, 2013 @ 11:07 am

  137. @AW(1#136) – But he didn’t recover. He’s broken. Despite all he has survived, he sees no way to ‘win’. And PSTD isn’t just from ‘noobi recruits’. It’s often the result of repeated deployments.

    Comment by mythos — February 15, 2013 @ 1:13 pm

  138. Dean is not broken he is just Dean. There is nothing broken or suicidal about being willing to die for something you believe in as strongly as he wants those gates closed. He has always been willing to die for his family. If that is broken then so am I. Also Dean would be the equivalent of a Seal or special forces not a two year grunt trying to pay for college. He’s Dean freaking Winchester. PTSD, please his whole life has been combat.

    Comment by AW — February 15, 2013 @ 2:07 pm

  139. i agree with aw-dean is not broken-he actually admitted this episode he is the best hunter in the world. he understands his worth. when he said he was going to do the trials-it was because he wants sam to have his “light at the end of the tunnel”. because dean knows whenever they do these “tests” one of them is going to die. he said that. he didn’t want it to be sam. thats not suicidal -thats love for a brother. its sacrifice but not suicidal.

    as for the “win”-or dying with a gun in his hand-thats not him being broken either. that was him coming to terms (he already had come to terms actually coming out of purgatory imo) that hunters always die early-he had seen it his whole life. rufus, jo, ellen, bobby, ash, they all died before thier time. he just understands that he most likely will not live to a ripe old age. thats not giving up-thats facts. -in his mind anyway.

    as for the actual episode. i loved it. pissed that sam got the trials but hoping that arc doesn’t run like all the other “whats wrong with sammy” arcs. hopefully the writers get a little more creative. loved the special effects hellhounds. one question though-i thought an angel blade had to be used to kill them-that ruby’s knife wouldn’t do it. remember back in s6-meg kissing cas and getting the angel blade to kill the hell hounds?? whats up with that??? also-sam saying he didn’t think dean knew his way around a kitchen. ummmmm-he was with lisa and ben-of course he would know how to navigate around a kitchen. just some canon the writers seemed to have forgotten. but didn’t make me loose my interest in the episode.i loved seeing the actress who played carly on general hospital. i always thought she was a fantastic actress. and she did well in this episode.

    Comment by animal — February 15, 2013 @ 2:28 pm

  140. Yay. Carver just made my Wednesday nights free again.

    Comment by Maggie — February 15, 2013 @ 2:37 pm

  141. I was trying to figure out where I’d seen that actress before. Thanks, animal.

    After a rewatch,

    Dean takes care of his room like he does his Baby.

    Dean in cool nerdy glasses and Sam in a T Shirt–yes please. Sorry, shallow moment.

    I hope they don’t have to do an intervention on Kevin. Just say no, Kev.

    “What would you do for your mom?” sob

    Jared was totally anticipating that hell hound blood. Gross.

    Can everybody on this show slip their handcuffs?

    The last 3 episodes have been such a breath of fresh air after a lack luster start to the season.

    Comment by inky — February 15, 2013 @ 2:47 pm

  142. CaseyT—I can agree the extreme fans of all flavors and preferences can be hard to read. I’m sure the more Sam inclined are just as annoyed by the histrionics of EDGs and the Dean inclined are by the histrionics of ESGs. The grass is always greener on the other side, whether the fight is over who’s the most loved by the PTB, POV, storylines, etc. There are ESGs who can go on just as much about their perceived injustices as EDGs. This is not exclusively a Dean problem, but like I said, I always figure it’s the opposite fans that annoy you most, not the fans on your side that take it too far. Again, though, the problem for me is still that attacking with a flame-thrower when a blow dart will do somehow diminishes the points you’re making. For me, it’s best not to feed the extreme fans, because they tend to feed on it and the more moderate fans start taking offense too. Just my observation.

    I’m afraid I’m confused by your saying that you don’t buy that Dean has not been a conventional action hero. In the post you made at #64, you said, “I don’t want Dean fans to push SPN into turning Dean into a conventional hero; that would make him ordinary.” So to me, it seemed like you were saying that Dean was not a conventional hero, and fans who wanted Dean to take on more of a mytharc role than he generally gets to do were somehow diminishing his heroism and making him conventional. I never denied any of the things in your list (except Alastair, who was killed by Sam). I also don’t recall saying that Dean wasn’t heroic—I said he didn’t often get the sustained mytharc storyline, and I think that he should.

    Here I see you agree with me in saying that Dean hasn’t a good, separate action storyline in years. That’s all I’m saying. I don’t think we’re going to see suicidal, out-of-control Dean, though—show to me has pretty firmly committed to the old pattern here. Sam is going to be in peril and have things wrong, and Dean is going to support him and see him through the trials because it’s his job. For all the speech about fixing Dean’s self-esteem, I don’t see how doing the exact same thing we’ve done in seasons past is going to magically yield a different result.

    I’m afraid I don’t forgive the Sam not looking for Dean storyline, but I do my best to hold it against the writers and not Sam. I very much disapprove of the fact that Kevin rated an immediate apology for Sam not looking for him, but Dean got nothing from Sam. I dislike that Dean accepted blame for what was wrong between them and Sam gave no ground, and now they’re magically fine. I do my best to put it behind me and will continue to try, because like you the last few episodes have really been great to me. Then this one took us right back into storyline and characterization retreading, and for me that’s not a thrill. I’m glad it seems to be working for others, but it’s probably never going to sit that well with me.

    Comment by yeah — February 15, 2013 @ 4:00 pm

  143. Between purgatory and the love interest for Sam I looked forward to this season. Dean trying to cope with PSTD while trying to hunt and Sam trying to balance a love life while dealing with bad ass Dean on the verge of a crack up sounded intense, action filled and dramatic. There has been a lot of disappointment for me.

    Though Dean exploded on the scene the PSTD story fizzled before it started. Though intense, Dean’s flash backs were to few, to short, and in the end told more about Benny and Cas and little about Dean. Finely his story well, he doesn’t have one.

    The love of Sam’s life is a hard drinking *itch, inclined toward guilt trips, and lacking in redeeming qualities. The flash backs are dull, the stories uninspiring and the chemistry nonexistent. He was a complete ass up until the last three episodes and there is no concrete explanation for his hostility or why the brother bond has experienced a sudden reinsurance.

    Finely any hope of Dean carrying a share of the arc is gone and he is delegated to the part he has largely played all along. Assuming all the responsibility and guilt for his family and looking after Sammy dear Sammy while once again (as his nose bleeds and what all begin) we ask what’s wrong with Sam. A terrible disappointment but like animal I’m hooked.

    PS, Lisa1, you’re talking about what is, I’m talking about what could be.

    Comment by Haley 56 — February 15, 2013 @ 4:33 pm

  144. Wow…@Haley I loved your breakdown of season 8 so far…your words flow and your description of Dean and Sam in 8 is amazing to read. Are you a writer???

    Comment by ozzie — February 15, 2013 @ 7:00 pm

  145. Dean is the one constant in this series. From the time he carried baby Sam out of their burning house. He will do anything to protect the ones he loves. He is the rock.

    Is anyone else thinking that Kevin might be miss translating the tablet?

    Is it just me, or does it seem like both J2s are enjoying their characters again?

    How about they decide who will do the next trial by playing rock paper scissors?

    Comment by mj — February 15, 2013 @ 7:39 pm

  146. mj, to me, Dean having an active role in the mytharc doesn’t preclude him from being the protective big brother he always has been. Dean’s not one-dimensional, so why can’t he do more than one thing at a time? Why can’t he be a rock with a storyline?

    I think it would be interesting to have Kevin mistranslating the tablet. Shades of Raiders of the Lost Ark–”They’re digging in the wrong place!” Plus, it would allow this storyline to possibly jump the predictable route it seems to have taken.

    The spoilers/episode to me indicates that once Sam did the first trial, he was locked into doing all three. I’d take rock, paper, scissors over that personally. I’m not sure why the PTB decided against making this a storyline they could share equally so that they could both take part in the action.

    Comment by yeah — February 15, 2013 @ 7:44 pm

  147. ozzie @144, Thank you for your kind words. A writer lives on reviews, they are the very air we breath, or choke on as the case may be. As it happens yes I was a novelist however I haven’t been published in twenty five years. Raising two multiple handy-capped daughters is both physically and emotionally all consuming. Not writing was like loosing a piece of me but I had something more precocious to nurture.

    I used to write apocalyptic sifi. That was the seventies and eighties. Well, the late sixties too. I’m hoping some day soon I will have the time and energy to revive my career. I’ve become a horror fan, a sign of the times I suppose.

    A little piece of irony just for you ozzie. The first piece of work I had published was a poem submitted to a journal by our school librarian when I was in the eighth grade. It was highly praised and I was asked to write more. I have never written another note worthy poem since and doubt I ever will. I laugh about it to this day.

    Comment by Haley 56 — February 15, 2013 @ 7:48 pm

  148. I hope you get to write again…I really do.

    Comment by ozzie — February 15, 2013 @ 9:05 pm

  149. #134
    I’m sick and tired of some of you, Sam fans. A few months ago you were ready to tear dean a new one just because of a text message and I don’t recall you backing carver’ skills then. And now that Sam took, like EVERYTHING that was there to take, you’re telling that dean fans should stop complaining and whining because the writers know what they’re doing? How completely selfish and self-righteous are you? No wonder you like Sam.
    Don’t you understand that ALL of dean fans are unhappy right now? Do you really think all of them are little dean bitches that LOVE to come here and bitch about the show?

    Comment by impala80 — February 15, 2013 @ 9:42 pm

  150. Um . . .I’m a Dean fan, and I’m NOT unhappy right now, Impala80. I’ve also read posts from other Dean fans who aren’t unhappy.

    You cannot speak for ALL Dean fans. You can only speak for yourself.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 16, 2013 @ 1:51 am

  151. lisa1
    everyone here who’s read one of your posts, knows your a Sam fan. don’t deny it.

    Comment by impala80 — February 16, 2013 @ 2:51 am

  152. I loved the episode! Really loved it (and the last three), and am so happy that the writers have reestablished the brothers relationship with some great dialogue and scenes.

    I’m a fan of both the brothers, but do not feel let down as some Dean fans are. Dean is the rock of the show, and has been so from the pilot. I’m happy with that, the brothers working together, and with the direction the show is going in now. I do wish that both of them could have undertaken the tasks together, but let’s see what the writers have in store for us.

    Can’t wait for the next episode!

    Comment by Tammy — February 16, 2013 @ 4:55 am

  153. Again, I have to ask, why does Dean being a rock since the pilot mean that he doesn’t need to be part of the mytharc/mythology of the show? Being ‘the rock’ of the show doesn’t mean that he can’t also have an action-oriented storyline that is actually about him. Actually, at this point I’m not even sure what Dean being ‘the rock’ actually means, other than Dean’s character has to stay stagnant on the sidelines in order to let the action unfold around him. Why is that a good thing?

    I suppose waiting to see what the writers have in store for us requires faith in the writers. Based on their past work with giving Dean anything more than a supporter/observer role that actually serves his character and not another’s, I have none. It’s great that others are fine with this direction, though. I’m glad for them.

    Comment by yeah — February 16, 2013 @ 6:59 am

  154. You can be a fan of both characters, you know. Team Supernatural! If you really dislike one character, I would think watching the show would be very frustrating.

    That doesn’t mean that you always like everything the writers have them do. I have complained about the writing for both characters this season and I love them both to pieces. I didn’t like Sam leaving Dean in cuffs as much as I didn’t like Dean’s fake text.

    And it’s really pretty condescending to start with “you Sam fans” or “you Dean fans.” It’s not a hive mind set. Everyone has a different take even if they like the same character(s)

    Comment by inky — February 16, 2013 @ 7:24 am

  155. Agreed–generalizing all Dean fans or all Sam fans doesn’t work, and really seems to have a destructive effect on discussion. It is possible to be fans of both characters. It’s also possible to claim to be a fan of both, but constantly come down on one brother’s side and not the other, leading others to question that claim. But is it anyone else’s place to question? Probably not, because over the interwebs you never really know what someone’s thinking, only what they’re projecting out. Sometimes the words don’t match the projection, but questioning it tends to lead nowhere, from what I’ve seen.

    It’s also true that treating all fans as if they think one thing uniformly doesn’t work. It can be used to bolster (I think this, so we all think this and I’m not alone) or to tear down (I saw one fan say this, so they all must think it and therefore I look down on them all), but it’s not good either way. Which is why I never think addressing fandom is as interesting in conversation as actually addressing the show itself. Debate the issues, not the posters seems to be a good rule.

    Comment by yeah — February 16, 2013 @ 7:56 am

  156. Question to everyone proclaiming “Dean has no plot line since forever”: then how it happens that you are even became his fan? Not interesting, support character with nothing to act on from very season 1? Or it just because ”Jensen is hot” and so and so? I bet not. I am a hardcore Dean’s fan from the first episode and will stay loyal until very last one. I know why: he is a multidimensional, complicated character. He has so much more to offer then just killing a dragon and saving a girl. He was established as undeniable hero from the very beginning, who has a privilege to deal with Death, who can kill an angel and who has personal angel (and possibly God) watching after him. Tell me that is not making him special by definition? Sam just another weapon in Deans hands, very precious, special weapon, but Dean is a one who pulls its trigger. This is the way I look at current situation in SPN. And I like it. And I am a happy Dean’s fan.
    I wish I can express my feelings better, but having English not my even second language makes it difficult. I apologize in advance.

    Comment by AAA — February 16, 2013 @ 8:57 am

  157. So, I can’t be a fan of both brothers? Is that what you’re saying, Impala80?

    Here’s a newsflash for you: not everyone has a favorite brother. I like them both equally. I complain about Sam more because I’m usually more upset with the writing for him. I don’t have the same concerns about Dean.

    And here’s something else you may find shocking – not every Dean fan has the same thought or complaint about Dean. That’s amazing, isn’t it? We can both like Dean a n d both have different feelings re: his story.

    Crazy, huh? People with individual thoughts and all!

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 16, 2013 @ 9:22 am

  158. I also have to laugh at your statement about me not denying I am a Sam fan as if that’s a dirty and bad thing! LOL!

    Why would I deny liking Sam? I do. I’ve never claimed to not like him. My being Sam fan doesn’t preclude me from also being a Dean fan.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 16, 2013 @ 9:35 am

  159. Not all Dean fans are disappointed, but there are a lot who are. For different reasons.

    Comment by Cindy — February 16, 2013 @ 9:45 am

  160. yeah–I admire most the Dean who is the hard working. keep at it, get up, go on guy, the steady hand keeping things together. He has been that. I also think he has frequently been a conventional hero as well, and I don’t want to see him only as that. He has been both; the first has more appeal to me. You are correct. I said Alistair meaning Zachariah.
    As for the need for a Dean story. I think it has been plus two years since he has had a good one. Sera’s Dean was domesticated and largely followed Castiel around or Sam in soullessness or mental illness. He did lead the attack on Dick, but that was not an exclusively Dean story. I think the complainers about Dean not having a real worthy story in 6, 7, or 8 are correct, although his purgatory story almost got there, and the Lisa story was Dean’s story (a crummy one, but a Dean story). The idea that he has never had a story is simply counter-factual.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 16, 2013 @ 12:00 pm

  161. mythos-that was kinda what I was wondering….how will that work? if the gates are closed does that mean the demons that are on earth now will always be here? or how does that work? You know there will be some kind of catch…..

    For everyone who is saying that Dean is getting shut out-I do not agree. I am a Dean girl-TRUST ME….but I got to say, he is not left out….these brothers HAVE TO DO THIS TOGETHER OR THEY WON’T SUCCEED. I think that is something that everyone is missing…these boys need each other-that is part of the story….and I’m sure if there is a way for Dean to do this all instead of his little brother-he will try his damndest.

    Sam said everything right-Dean isn’t the braun-he is smart, the best hunter he knows, and knows how to battle in war. These boys NEED each other-and I honestly have never thougth of anything as this is a Sam story/this is a Dean story-because BOTH of the boys are always so involved.

    Not sure if anyone posted this, but I LOVED how Dean was so excited about his room….and when Sam was doing his little speech about him doing the trials so both of them can live-he said and you have a room now Dean I LOVED IT. point blank period.

    So happy with the last couple of episodes….so happy that I have been posting on boards-which I haven’t done for years.

    Comment by Christy — February 16, 2013 @ 12:14 pm

  162. CaseyT–I definitely agree with you that Dean is hard-working, persistent, and above all committed to his cause and his family. I further agree that he has had his turn at being the conventional hero: maybe something in your 64 post just got lost in translation? Either way, I do agree that he is also more than a conventional hero, but giving him conventional hero tasks or storylines does not, in my opinion, take away from the admirable qualities I listed at the top of my post, either.

    Yes, it’s been a long time since Dean has had a good storyline. Purgatory could have been one, but it was basically dropped by 6.7, with little to no impact other than bringing Benny into the story . . . oh, wait, he’s gone now, too. Maybe he’ll reappear one day to be killed by a Winchester, but that still doesn’t make a storyline. To me, the Lisa storyline followed the same pattern–it was introduced fast, shuttled by 6.7, and was only brought up twice more when the PTB remembered one of their two leads should have a story of his own every once in a while as well. While I agree both could technically be considered storylines and it is fan hyperbole to say he’s had none (much the way it is hyperbole to say Sam has had no POV–just because something is inadequate and unsatisfying doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist), neither connect to the mytharc or the overall story of the season, and both disappeared with no lasting impact. That’s why they’re easy to dismiss.

    Comment by yeah — February 16, 2013 @ 12:22 pm

  163. *Maybe he’ll reappear to be killed by a Winchester, but that still doesn’t make a storyline good. Forgot a word there.

    Comment by yeah — February 16, 2013 @ 12:26 pm

  164. Christy – I’m with you. I was offline until the 4th season, and I never viewed the show in terms of Sam’s story and Dean’s story. It was always just “the” story. To me, whatever happens to one brother usually affects the other so it’s usually a Winchester story.

    For the most part, I still try to view the show this way. In the latter years, it has been easier to identify a Dean story (Purgatory, Lisa/Ben, S7 depression) and a Sam story (the collapse of the Wall, Amelia). I think isolating the stories I mentioned has not been good for the show. The show works better, IMO, when both brothers are involved in whatever story is happening. Some will disagree but I think Dean is a part of the MOL and the trials. I wish Dean’s Purgatory issues had been played up more so Sam could have been more directly involved in helping his brother. Dean could have been more interested in Sam’s hallucinations last year, and Sam could have been more interested in Dean’s depression. Isolating the boys to their own stories didn’t work.

    The show seems to be on the right track with the past three episodes. I just hope the trend continues.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 16, 2013 @ 1:13 pm

  165. just a little tidbid-rumor-horror (for some)-that danay garcia -elle-in this episode-will be coming back to spn as a recurring character. i read it on tumbler-so who knows. however what i do know is that in one of the supernatural books there is a character named elle who is deans love interest. and he falls deeply in love with her. she is from a differant time so they can’t be together -but anyway my point is the writers this season seem to be taking alot of characters out of the supernatural novels that are out there. the nazi necromancers, elle, the confederate zombies, adamaddon (how do you spell that???). anyway-i liked elle-danay had great chemistry with jensen however he ALWAYS seems to have chemistry with the costars. I hope she does come back and we get a kiss that is returned by dean and a dean sex scene is always a plus for me. i doubt though she will be back this season. someone tweeted that most likely it will be in season 9.

    Comment by animal — February 16, 2013 @ 4:04 pm

  166. oh and elle in the book-was a hunter.

    Comment by animal — February 16, 2013 @ 5:11 pm

  167. Sheri make me want to kill myself

    Comment by M — February 16, 2013 @ 5:52 pm

  168. @167-sheri is allowed to have an opinion whether you agree with sheri or not. its called conversation-be it positive or negative. whether you agree with her or not. she knows spn inside and out. and her posts have some interesting points.

    i for one agree with the dean doesn’t get the arcs crowd. but i also know he is the human aspect of the show. and sam is the supernatural aspect so it stands to reason sam would get the supernatural trials. however after rewatching this episode 5 times at least-and the speeches more than that it is a total shame that dean’s speech turned out to be a hollow-pointless speech. what he wanted didn’t come to pass. i think if he would have been able to kill the hell hound after giving such a heartfelt beautiful speech it would have made for a great kickass/badass moment/scene. it was a waste really. beautiful but a waste. and jensen did a beautiful job of delivering it. jared did a beautiful job of delivering his as well. but it could have been given even if dean killed the hellhound. but for some reason the writers want to go this same route we have gone on for 7 1/2 seasons now. with whats wrong with sam and dean worring his arse off about it and trying to fix it.

    Interestingly i thought that there may have been some foreshadowing of things to come in this episode. with dean saying to sam about reading the books in the batcave because he wasn’t going to do it. i will lay you odds that dean starts reading them to see if he can help sam in some way. also with sam stating to dean about taking him to the light if dean would just come with him. thats kinda what dean did for cas and cas let go. a foreshadow that maybe both brothers go down at the season finale. but just my opinion.

    Comment by animal — February 16, 2013 @ 6:40 pm

  169. Sheri is so arrogant and full of herself. Her posts make me want to shoot myself in the face.

    Comment by Jessica — February 16, 2013 @ 7:47 pm

  170. Yes, someone else having an opinion that is different from yours is totally a reason to make light of suicide.

    Comment by yeah — February 16, 2013 @ 8:27 pm

  171. Jessica and M — what gives with the Sheri hate? She’s posted exactly twice in this thread, the last time being all the way back at #46. Is your vitriol supposed to be some sort of preemptive strike, intended to dissuade her from saying anything else? Because that’s not cool. Kind of anti-free-speech of you. You would have felt right at home in Stalin’s USSR, which depended heavily on citizen enforcers like you to silence those with unpopular views. Happily, the Internet operates on more generous principles.

    Comment by Luluanne — February 16, 2013 @ 8:46 pm

  172. For real. Arguing issues is fine, and even fun at times. But once launching personal attacks and attempts to silence those you don’t agree with is just ugly.

    Comment by yeah — February 16, 2013 @ 8:55 pm

  173. Forgive me, Lisa1, but could you elaborate a little on what you mean by it being harder to identify a Sam story than a Dean story. I’d say they were both fairly easy to spot in show—it’s not like Sam’s flashbacks about Amelia were hidden, or that Sam’s soullessness was treated as an afterthought. I really don’t understand what you mean by saying that Sam’s storylines were harder to identify.

    I think the fact that show did separate the boys’ storylines in S4 and have summarily kept them separated since then is the reason many people do not see them as shared. I agree that show works better when the boys are both involved in whatever story is occurring, but if show is trying that here with the MoL and the trials, they’re not doing a very good job, in my opinion. Sending Bob Singer out to talk about how the MoL gives Sam purpose and closing the gates is personal for Sam doesn’t indicate to me that these storylines are shared—they are Sam’s, and Dean gets his own room! At this point, show hasn’t proven to me that Dean has any part in the MoL storyline, and we can only speculate about what they’re going to do with the trials. Again, I agree that isolating the boys’ storylines makes them less enjoyable, but nothing so far has shown me that they’re bucking the trend. I’m glad others see it, and I hope to be convinced with how they handle these stories as we progress. There’s potential for shared storylines, but Dean’s physical presence isn’t enough for me, and that’s all there is so far. I hope things expand soon and really bring Dean in.

    Comment by yeah — February 16, 2013 @ 9:35 pm

  174. Oh for heaven’s sake, go away, little troll. The adults are talking.

    Comment by inky — February 17, 2013 @ 7:41 am

  175. Hi, Yeah! I believe you misunderstood my post.

    I was saying that has been EASIER in the later seasons to identify a story as Sam’s alone or Dean’s alone. That wasn’t always the case though. In the earlier seasons (1-3 and even a little bit of 4), the stories always felt like “Winchester” stories to me. I was agreeing w/Christy that I have always viewed the stories as ones being about BOTH brothers, esp. in the earlier seasons. For instance, yes, Sam had psychic visions but I never felt that was a story that was exclusive to Sam. It was happening to Sam, but it impacted both brothers in my mind. I feel the same way about Dean’s CRD and his time in Hell. Those things happened to Dean but impacted both brothers. I just never viewed a story in the earlier seasons as strictly Sam’s story or strictly Dean’s story. I know some feel differently though. All I can say is I was offline for the first three seasons and didn’t participate in the online community. I saw the show as being about the Winchesters, and not just one brother.

    Now, from S4 onward, the stories have become, IMO, increasingly isolated. The boys no longer help each other w/their problems so the stories seem more individualized than they did earlier. Dean could have helped Sam w/his hallucinations in S7, and Sam could have helped Dean w/his depression but the writers kept them isolated to their stories. That doesn’t work.

    I think (or rather I’m cautiously hopeful) that Carver recognizes that isolating the stories and the outcomes is a mistake. The past three episodes have had the feeling of Seasons 1-3, and the ratings keep increasing. The MOL legacy wasn’t given only to Sam; it was given to both Sam and Dean. Sam may do the trials but I don’t fear that Dean will be in the background. When has Dean ever been in the background? IMO, Dean is always a part of the show and action.

    But, yes, it has become easier to identify a Sam story and a Dean story, but that hasn’t worked for the show, IMO.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 17, 2013 @ 9:23 am

  176. @ Jessica and M: You are a classic example of Sam girls trying to bully posters off the boards. Other than, Sam is so hot, Sam is so cute in the clip, Sam’s hair is so flowing and beautiful, you offer no discussion. Not only that, you bully because you don’t have the capacity to dispute or defend any discussion.

    Bullying doesn’t work with me. What does work is the control over my own opinion and actions. I haven’t been posting, because I am no longer interested in the show and won’t be watching it for a while. I’ll read reviews and comments and, if at some time in the future, I think the show is worth picking up again, I might…or I might not.

    My decision is not based on any stupid comments by posters. It was a decision that had to be made after the last episode.

    Carver had the choice of giving Dean a story other than cape bearer and Suzy Homemaker or making him part of mytharc. He clearly choice cape bearer and caregiver. Carver also fully knew that in only choosing one brother to be a part of the mytharc, that he was going to piss off either Sam fans or Dean fans. He chose Dean fans.

    Since this was his choice, I actually think Dean decorating, cooking lunch for Sam, shopping for a memory foam mattress, and doing the grocery shopping was a creative metaphor for his conscious decision to keep Dean as a minor character and use his POV to tell Sam’s story.

    But when I could only make it halfway through this coming week’s first promo clip and clicked out of it, that’s a clear sign from above that the show no longer offers anything I want to see. Obviously, I am in the minority and most fans still see hope and promise in the story. I also have no doubt that Dean will continue to snark, huff and puff, and make a minor kill here and there, get half the screen time, and all of that. It’s not enough for me, nor is the opportunity to see JA perform.

    I just wanted to let you know that your childish bullying didn’t win out, but Carver did gave you win, and that’s his choice. Mine is to watch or not watch, and I’ve chosen to not watch.

    Comment by Sheri — February 17, 2013 @ 11:52 am

  177. Oh, yes, I did misunderstand then. I agree with you actually–show seemed much more integrated in terms of storyline in the first seasons. From S4 on, stories, for me, have more exclusively divided into Dean’s or Sam’s. That’s something I think they should reverse, but the way they’ve introduced both the MoL and the trials, particularly with Bob Singer’s interviews, doesn’t lead me to believe it’s going to happen anytime soon. Maybe they’re trying, but years of past experience have given them an uphill climb to win some fans hearts.

    I’m afraid at the moment I just don’t agree with you regarding the latest two storylines–show has seemingly set Dean outside the MoL both onscreen and in interviews, and the same has been done for the trials. Maybe they will do better than I’m expecting.

    Comment by yeah — February 17, 2013 @ 11:53 am

  178. I rarely read interviews from the showrunners or writers, and when I do, I can’t say I pay much attention to what they think of the storylines. Once a storyline is out there, I basically form my own opinion of it, which may or may not fall in line w/what the writers/showrunners intended.

    And that’s not to say you don’t also do that, Yeah. I just know that some people are influenced by what the writers say the arc/storyline means. For instance, I guess Kripke gave some interview at the end of S5 about Dean accepting Sam. I never read it, but I know some EDGs were telling me that Kripke said Dean had to learn to accept Sam and even drinking DB. Again, I never read the article, but I know that’s not what I got from the episode itself or the arc. Season 5 wasn’t, IMO, about Dean learning to accept Sam. That’s just not how I saw it. If that was Kripke’s point, it went over my head.

    So, I’m not sure what Bob Singer has said about the MOL and trials. I have to see how it all plays out first before I can form an opinion on it being a story more about Sam than Dean.

    So far, from what I’ve seen, the MOL story involves them both. Both brothers are legacies. Sam and Dean are MOLs. The legacy is not, IMO, cut off from Dean. Now, Dean is not all that interested in research, but I would love to see him delve into the MOL as Sam has done. The fact that he hasn’t done mean – at least to me – that Dean is not a part of the MOL. You know what I mean?

    As far as the trials are concerned, I think Dean will have a role. He may not be doing the trials, but he’ll certainly be present w/Sam for each of them and will assist Sam, I believe, in completing them. If Dean takes a backseat for the rest of the season, then I’ll complain but I honestly don’t see that happening. For me, Dean always has an active role on the show. Has a large part of that role been reactive? Sure, but that doesn’t make Dean any less worthy in my eyes. That reactive role has lead to some great moments, speeches, and character development! I would love for Sam to get some of those moments as well. He’s had a few but not too many.

    To me, the heart of Supernatural is in the relationships, not the mytharc. I guess that’s why I’ve always (or for the most part) been satisfied and happy with Dean’s role on the show and why I want more Sam POV.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 17, 2013 @ 1:53 pm

  179. Lisa1 -

    How is you wanting more Sam POV any different from others who say they want Dean to be more involved in the mytharc?

    Sam’s storyline with Amelia was solely told from Sam’s POV. You may not have enjoyed this storyline, but it was ALL Sam’s. Just like his hallucination storyline of S7 which was all from Sam’s POV.

    Now that we are finished with the flashbacks (per Singer) and now Sam is THE Men of Letters and is now THE chosen one to close the gates of hell, what does that leave Dean? He deserves to have his own storyline as well … and not just as a cook for the chosen one.

    Comment by Lia — February 17, 2013 @ 2:25 pm

  180. Lía, I never said you couldn’t want Dean to have a mytharc.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 17, 2013 @ 2:52 pm

  181. Lisa1, I can accept that you don’t pay attention to showrunners, writers, or what they think of storylines. But I don’t think that they exist in a vacuum—what they say and think does influence the story. Some people may discard parts of canon that they don’t choose to accept, and more power to them. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist, and that they’re not valid.

    Yes, the writers do influence me. My enjoyment of S5’s finale was somewhat damaged when I realized that the larger story really held no development for Dean—his role was to realize that he would still die for Sam and that he had to accept Sam. When the creator of the characters and the show states that pointblank, I can’t ignore that. So in a way I resent being labeled as an EDG for taking something that Kripke actually said as a fact. It’s possible to ignore such articles, but that message is the one he intended to display on the screen, so it’s not that Dean fans were wrong to interpret the show that way. They had it right, according to the PTB. Other interpretations are fine, but ignoring Kripke and his intended message doesn’t make it wrong.

    I agree that seeing how both storylines play out is important, but at the moment the beginning we’ve had and Bob Singer’s words don’t leave me with much optimism. It’s fine if you see it differently.

    At the moment to me, Dean is a MoL in name only. He has no interest in the legacy or what it offers, and declaring Sam a MoL while separating himself from it leads me to believe he is not, at the moment, part of the MoL in his own mind or the PTB’s. Now, could that change? Yes, it could, but at the moment Dean has no role in that storyline.

    Similarly, show may find a way to integrate Dean into the trials storyline, but at the moment it has been presented as a singular task. Now, Dean will, as always be there to support Sam and be present while the action takes place, but for me, that does not make it his storyline. I can accept others see it differently, and maybe I will too, depending on what they do. But at the moment, I am again not optimistic that we’ll see anything different than what we saw in S5.

    There is a difference between having an active role on the show and having an active role in the mytharc. Dean might be allowed to go on hunts or kill monsters, but the question still remains on whether he will be allowed to be more than a reactive character in the mytharc. We’ve seen this many times before, and at this point it’s played out for me, honestly. The grass is always greener on the other side—Sam fans want POV and character moments because they’ve had it less, and Dean fans want mytharc and importance in the overall stories because they’ve had it less.

    Here’s the thing about the former, though—it’s all wiped out when convenient. Dean’s forgiveness speech of S6? Wiped out this season in 8.5 for more drama? Dean’s self-esteem character development? Gone in the last episode so we could see he needed to fail the trials so he could once again see his worth—by assisting Sam in saving the world. Again, definition of insanity is doing something over and over again and expecting different results. The same could be said for Sam—he’s not going to get great character development by being saddled with the mytharc/What’s wrong with Sam story again. What’s Sam going to learn from this role as completer of the trials? That’s hunting’s worthwhile—a revelation he’s had and forgotten many times already? So I’m not sure how this really serves either character at this point.

    To me, show works best when all cylinders are clicking. There’s no reason one character should sacrifice mytharc for relationship/character development, and no reason why the other should sacrifice relationship/character development for mytharc. Show had an opportunity to give both Sam and Dean this by really allowing them to share the mytharc and the emotional exploration, and once again they’ve rejected that, at least as far as I can tell. I think it’s a shame.

    Comment by yeah — February 17, 2013 @ 3:13 pm

  182. I think what is going to be interesting is the las vegas con in march-we know jared will have lots to talk about since his charactr sam is the chosen one yet again. i have already seen interviews where jared goes on and on about the trials and what they are doing to his character. jensen on the other hand-will be interesting to watch because what exactly will he talk about??? in his latest interview he talked about the larping episode long hair-the impala being back-and the blooper reels. Not any storyline of deans but just “stuff”. i know he probably -well most likely doesn’t give a rats arse that he doesn’t have an arc yet again. although he does get excited about it when he thinks he has one-for instance the purgatory one. There is quite a differance between those interviews and this last one. but it will be interesting to see.

    Sheri-i was right with you about not watching spn anymore-at least not on wednesdays when the ratings are counted. i was going to watch thru other means on thursdays or fridays if the comments about the episode intrigued me. But trial and error-though disappointing in many ways for me- i loved the throw back to s1-s3. in fact before i watched the episode i had read that sam got the trials i was so mad i was going to call for a boycott so to speak by dean fans for the next episode to bring the ratings down. but i realized that is a stupid thing to even try and o do. its a damn show. its not my life. the writers and carver are telling thier story-you either like it or you don’t. i will be around for awhile yet until the cas episodes-because those i can not stomach anymore. peace girl!!

    Comment by animal — February 17, 2013 @ 3:57 pm

  183. Yeah, I never called you an EDG. As far as I can recall, this thread is the only time we’ve ever interacted on this board. How was I supposed to know to would even know the article I was referencing? I simply said that some EDGs mentioned the article to me. These are posters I KNOW, for a fact, hate Sam and only favor Dean. They mentioned the article to me in a discussion about why Dean had no role on the show. As far as I know, none of those posters are in this thread.

    Second, I do not seek out articles/interviews from the writers or showrunners. I just watch the show. Honestly, I think that’s what most people do. I’m not putting my head in the sand or ignoring anything. How could I ignore what I didn’t know existed?

    Kripke’s interview wasn’t a part of “Swan Song,” so it didn’t impact my initial opinion. Some of us just watch the show and come up w/our own interpretations/meanings for what we see. I never read that article so I don’t know what Kripke intended; I just know how I saw Swan Song and the S5 arc. I pretty much disliked most of S5. I did like SS though. I thought it was a good episode and gave me the brotherly connection I always want. It’s one of the very few S5 episodes I’m willing to re-watch. I definitely didn’t see it as Dean learning to love a demon blood drinking Sam. I just didn’t, and honestly, there’s not much Kripke could say that would make me agree w/him b/c that’s not how the story played out for me.

    That said, if you (the generic you) thought this before you read the article or after you read it, that’s fine. I never said it was wrong to go w/Kripke’s interpretation or see the show however you wish to see it. I was simply offering my perspective. That’s all.

    I agree that both Sam and Dean should get both POV and mytharc. I’ve never understood why the writers split the two. They go hand-in-hand if you ask me.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 17, 2013 @ 4:47 pm

  184. Sherri #176, B-y-e and Good riddance, dam, I am so tired of you complaining about this show, twister and yeah keep your comment to yourself, I could care less what you think, My rights to express myself as well

    Comment by pkl53 — February 17, 2013 @ 5:11 pm

  185. Why should I even try to see ThomasA’s point of view when she feels the perfect ending of the show is Dean shooting Sam dead and burning his corpse? That is just so extreme.

    You can be frustrated all you like but calling Sam a demon-banger and blood-drinker like he did it for kicks and fun is ridiculous. You should be lucky they didn’t show Dean banging demons and drinking blood. Thank goodness for small mercies.

    Why shouldn’t Sam be worthy of a godly task or is Dean the only good and holy Winchester out there?

    I am pleased that Sam is tied to the mytharc. Sam fans deserve this after sitting through the Amelia arc while Dean gets to go to purgatory and make a new ‘friend’.

    Comment by josephineschmoe — February 17, 2013 @ 5:30 pm

  186. Lisa1–I apologize that I misunderstood your meaning re:EDGs. I think my interpretation came from the fact that you specifically said EDGs were the ones bringing up the article, and from there I mistakenly extrapolated that bringing up the article in discussing Swan Song was the act of a EDG. I’m sure posters who hate Sam would mention it, but also Dean fans that were disappointed in the way Dean’s story was handled cited that as reason for their disappointment in Dean’s story. I guess I’m not sure why bringing up the fact that EDGs mentioned it to you was relevant at all to the discussion, so I attached meaning to that comment because it was there. I’ve read too much generalization of Dean fans around the interwebs lately, and I let it affect my perception. I should not have, and for that I am sorry.

    Second, I’m not sure where I said you were putting your head in the sand. I am curious, though. You did state that you were not seeking out articles or interviews from the writers and showrunners, but once the information is brought to your attention, how do you proceed? Here you say that you did not initially know about Kripke’s opinion that Dean needed to learn to love Sam, demon blood and all, but once you did, you didn’t agree. Isn’t that ignoring some aspects of canon and the intentions of the showrunner/writers because you don’t agree with their view of the story they’re telling? Which, as I said, is perfectly fine if it works for you. I was simply trying to give you my perspective on why some fans do see Dean’s role as diminished in S5 and are wary of what’s to come from S8, given Singer’s interview. We don’t have to agree, and that’s fine.

    You’d think Sam and Dean both getting POV and mytharc would be common sense, except it rarely has been for the writers in the latter seasons.

    Comment by yeah — February 17, 2013 @ 6:42 pm

  187. 185- Yeah Sam fans, who get ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING, deserve even more. Right.
    Purgatory was a Cas and Benny story, not Dean, and it was over after a couple of episodes, while Sam and Amelia get all the attention and almost all of the flashbacks, Doesn’t matter that it was a sucky story, it was all about Sam, and it was the major story of the first half.
    Why shouldn’t Sam get the Godly story you ask? Because he already gets EVERY story. And to answer your other question, no apparently Dean is NOT good enough to have a ‘holy and good’ story in these writers eyes, or any story for that matter.
    I really can’t see why any Sam fan has anything to complain about. This season alone he got a major love story, the MOL story, he’s the only one worthy enough to do the tests, and now he’s also gonna have a major plot with his chronic illness.
    Hell, they even took Dean’s ‘greatest hunter’ thing away from him because he wasn’t strong enough to kill the hellhound, But naturally, Sam was.
    So enjoy your show. For you there’s no reason you shouldn’t be ecstatic about the latest developments, but try to understand why a lot of us aren’t.

    Comment by angel64 — February 17, 2013 @ 7:01 pm

  188. 185- First off, Thomas. I’m a broski. A dude. Lol.
    Secondly: Read ALL of my posts before judging me off only one. I don’t REALLY or ACTUALLY want Sam dead. That was, as I posted earlier, a reference to the fact that IF Sam were out of the picture, we might get a story for Dean.

    Secondly: Your argument is invalid. Dean slept with a monster. And that story was killed in 1 episode. Damn, 1? You must be thinking, that’s fast, Sam’s demon lover stayed around for longer than that. Carver COULD have shown Dean’s monster-baby momma in Purgatory, but nah, he didn’t. Ruby was there all season.
    Also “just for kicks”: Pretty sure nobody held his arms down and forced demon blood down his throat. He drank that of his own free will. He has a knowledge of Latin and some good weapons. Kill demons the right way, not the bad way.
    I never said Sam COULDN’T get the Trials, but let’s break it down by stats, and examine: Who has more “heavenly” or “Godly” points on their side, that line them up to be the Trial Executor?

    lastly, your comment about being glad Sam fans get a mytharc while dean goes purgar…blah. Grab anothe cup of that kool-aid while I tell you a camp fire yarn:

    Dean’s “story” in Purgatory: it was a gateway story. It got us a lead on Benny, who was the star of the first half of Season8, and a lead on where Cas might be going, the mid of season 8. Sam should have got the MoL story going on for S8. Sam, like I’ve mentioned, has always been the researcher type of the 2, where Dean has been the brawn.

    Sam said he wanted to take the Trials because Dean deserves a normal life. We saw that in early S5, and Dean can’t keep danger out of his life. It wasn’t happening then, and I dont see it happening now.

    So pardon all of us Dean-inites who want some sort of progression for our character, rather than to watch him sit of on the sidelines.

    Brief look @ Dean by season:
    s1: hunting
    s2: fix or kill Sam (neither happened)
    s3: gotta break this deal, but can’t, Sam is in trouble again with this Ruby chick
    s4: Sam went darkside, uh-oh, and there’s an angel!
    s5: gotta say no to Mike, and keep Sam from saying yes. I’m a servant and a vessel? gotta call adam to take my spot, brb 1 sec.
    s6: what’s wrong with sam?
    s7: is sam ok/hide from Dick
    s8: how i met your vampire, and sam’s bodyguard

    Sam, by seasons:
    s1: hunting/visions
    s2: i’m the chosen one!
    s3: get dean out of his deal, but oh look a hot demon chick who thinks i can do something about lilith
    s4: i’m adic- i’m addicted to you, oh baby. blood/ruby/betrayal and hiding secrets. i gotta have mo-blood yo!
    s5: i can say no. hmm, i’ll say yes. along the way: ooh demon blood, to drink or not to drink.
    s6: if i only had a soul. oh i got it? better have Lucy remind me about hell, and breakdown at the end.
    s7: cas can fix all my probs! and gotta run, Dick is after me.
    s8: i got a gf??? (tbh: nobody cares) so i’ll just do all this awesome research in a old bunker base HQ, and then steal my bro’s thunder because he is depressed and suicidal. nah jk, i want the glory bro.

    Comment by Thomas A — February 17, 2013 @ 10:51 pm

  189. Oh right, Sam wanted to do the tasks because he wanted all the glory. How can anyone believe that? How about Dean wanting to do the trials because he wanted the glory? How about that theory?

    S1- Dean and the family business. Sam is wrong to quit. Dean is right. Family is more important than revenge. Good emotional and hunting arc for Dean. Audience on his side.

    s2 – Dean nearly dies, meet Tessa, more attention to Dean’s issues and daddy grief. What’s wrong with Dean? Depressed and suicidal. Kripke admits he forgot all about Sam’s daddy issues until it was too late.

    s3- Dean the centre of the hell arc. More focus on his issues, whether he wants to live and die, dadddy issue crops up again. What’s wrong with Dean? Depression, low self-esteem.

    s4 – Returns from hell. Major story, the focus of the angels, bonds with Castiel. What’s wrong with Dean? Guilt, PTSD. Audience on his side while Sam sleeps with Ruby.

    s5- Sam in the doghouse, Dean is right. Gets to be angry with Sam while forgiving Castiel. Audience on his side.

    s6- Domestic issues. Then returns to hunting and is at the heart of it all. Nothing happens without Dean. Soulless Sam does bad things. Audience on Dean’s side as always.

    At least, Dean’s purgatory story was the gateway to something, especially Dean’s guilt issues again.What’s wrong with Dean this time? Low self-esteem. The Amelia story went nowhere.

    Sometimes I feel that if Dean was out of the picture, then they have to give us Sam POV.

    Comment by josephineschmoe — February 18, 2013 @ 2:00 am

  190. Dean COULD be out of the picture, and it wouldn’t matter. Sorry, but nothing you posted changes anything. Sam is the main, important character, as he always is. I still don’t get what you could possibly be unhappy about. Dean gets absolutely nothing from these writers.I get it, you don’t like/care about Dean, which is fine, but it still doesn’t change the fact that Sam gets EVERYTHING.
    So just be happy.

    Comment by angel64 — February 18, 2013 @ 2:19 am

  191. Absolutely nothing? He got all those things I pointed out. Don’t exaggerate. And don’t assume I hate Dean. I like Dean well enough.

    Sam is a lead. He should be important. I merely disagree that Dean is not important as well.

    Comment by josephineschmoe — February 18, 2013 @ 4:32 am

  192. @173 yeah
    “Sending Bob Singer out to talk about how the MoL gives Sam purpose and closing the gates is personal for Sam doesn’t indicate to me that these storylines are shared—they are Sam’s, and Dean gets his own room!”
    That’s exactly my problem too, that even the show runners belittle dean. His interview was very hard to swallow for me too. Saying that Sam determinedly wants to embrace his legacy and dean is just happy to have his own room is clearly showing what they think of dean.
    @179 lisa1
    “As far as the trials are concerned, I think Dean will have a role. He may not be doing the trials, but he’ll certainly be present w/Sam for each of them and will assist Sam”
    You said it yourself, dean’s always Sam’s support. Why couldn’t they have dean doing the trials and Sam helping dean for once? In s5 we realized that dean was Michael’s vessel in the first episode and Sam doesn’t say anything. Then a few episodes later Sam finds out he’s Lucifer’s vessel, he calls dean and when dean doesn’t react as he should Sam says “So, that’s it? That’s your response? A-a little panic, maybe? What are we gonna do about it?” and that’s exactly after he left dean himself, after he tried to strangle dean. He takes dean for granted. He thinks whatever he does when he needs help dean HAS TO help him. And clearly the show runners think the same.
    In season 8 Sam didn’t even bother to find dean, he didn’t even spend one second figuring out what happened to dean. when dean comes back he never apologizes to dean, never tries to explain himself. Instead he takes dean for granted and says it’s what it is, deal with it or I’m gone. And obviously dean deals with it and now is back to what’s wrong with my little precious brother, I have to sacrifice myself for him, I have to trust him no matter what. That’s the problem whit their relationship. It’s ONE SIDED.
    I blame the writers for it not Sam. For example in this episode dean was really nice to Sam, he made a burger for him, and it was really important for him that Sam liked it. He decorates his room with a lot of emotions, puts a picture of his mom on his desk, then Sam comes in, smirks and tosses a trash on the ground. Why? That was just mean and coming from Sam who is almost kind and understanding to ANYONE but his own brother. Why?
    It’s these little gestures that make me believe the writers and therefore Sam take dean for granted, to them dean is just a sidekick. Combine that with him not getting any place in myth arc and that’s why I’m so disappointed.
    In this episode Sam told dean “you should want to live, topside you have friends and family that want you around”. That moment I was thinking which friend? Which family? Who cares for dean when even his own brother couldn’t care less he was dead or alive? Why would dean think otherwise? And now don’t you think it was better if dean were the one to do the trials and Sam the one to help him? That way Sam could make dean understand that he would do anything to keep him alive during the tests. But now we have another year of Sam being in peril and dean doing anything to help? How is that going to help dean with his self-loathing issues? If he thinks Sam’s the special one and he’s just a grunt that nobody cares about, he is RIGHT.

    Comment by bahar — February 18, 2013 @ 4:51 am

  193. Still not nearly as much as Sam has gotten. And I don’t hate Sam either. We will just have to disagree about this.

    Comment by angel64 — February 18, 2013 @ 4:51 am

  194. Bahar – For the last time – I didn’t care who did the trials! I honestly didn’t.

    I have disliked every single episode until ATGB. I am just happy that the brothers are connected, and the story is about them IMO.

    It was never a contest for me who did these trials! People keep asking me “Well, why couldn’t Dean have done the trials?” HE COULD HAVE! I have NEVER said it had to be Sam!

    I have just been discussing what happened, not what ifs.

    —————————

    Yeah – To answer your question, it would depend on if I felt that message was conveyed through the show. If a writer/showrunner has to come out and tell the audience what X or Y meant, then I think there’s been a “writing” problem. The show should speak for itself b/c not everyone is going to read an article or an interview to get the “true” meaning of a story.

    The only example I can really go by is that Kripke article I incidentally never read. From what I was told about it, I can’t say it changed my opinion of SS. I really liked that episode, and I didn’t see it as Dean learning to accept that Sam drinks DB. I can’t see Sam guzzling down some DB now w/Dean’s approval. If Sam and Dean would still be grossed out by Sam drinking DB, then how was it something Dean was supposed to just accept? Plus, I used to point out to those posters that Sam didn’t happily drink DB in front of Dean. He didn’t even want Dean watching him do that. If Kripke intended it to be this great thing, why have Sam doing under cover and looking shameful? What did Kripke even mean by that? Because it makes no sense to me.

    And the lesson about Dean learning to love/accept Sam? What? I don’t even know what Kripke’s talking about. Dean has always loved Sam. And he does accept Sam, but why should he accept that Sam is naturally a DB drinking freak? Come on! That doesn’t even make sense. Plus, I know of several people who also didn’t see it that way. To me, that indicates a problem w/Kripke’s story. My mind never even went in that route.

    If anything, I thought SS was about Dean letting go of his need to protect Sam at all costs. John ingrained in him this desire to protect Sam no matter what, and Sam was proposing a death plan. That little speech on the Impala was about that IIRC, not anything else.

    So, no, hearing about Kripke’s article didn’t change my mind b/c I didn’t see any of whatever he intended playing out on my screen when I watched the episode.

    I do like listening to director’s commentaries though but I guess I just take it in stride. If I’ve already developed a firm opinion about something, it’s not likely to change even if the director said he intended X. I may just walk away thinking, “Wow. I didn’t get that at all from the story.”

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 18, 2013 @ 6:37 am

  195. @194
    I’m sorry Lisa. I’m not gonna ask you anymore questions if it upsets you.
    @josephineschmoe
    Most of the stories you mentioned like dean nearly dies and meets Tess are one episode story. They don’t count as season long arc. But I agree that in season 3, 4&5 even 6 he had good stories, But in the rest of the seasons…

    Comment by bahar — February 18, 2013 @ 7:59 am

  196. My two cents: I think both brothers have had plenty from the writers. Why? because both sides can argue and make a pretty good case for their side because it depends on what’s bugging you and what’s important to you for the character. It’s not right or wrong, it’s just different. And we will drive ourselves crazy trying to convince someone else who doesn’t see it our our way. Insulting each other certainly doesn’t help though. “You must be an idiot if you can’t see it my way.” So not helpful.

    one: Dean doesn’t get anything

    two: Dean’s had lots of things

    one: But not what I want him to have therefore he has nothing.

    Switch out Dean with Sam and you have the same discussion. Let’s face it, if Dean were doing the trials, we’d be talking Sam fans off the ledge and there would be post after post outlining how unfairly Sam is treated by the writers.

    Sometimes I think the fandom is guilty of conviction bias. We ignore what doesn’t support our argument and bring up only the things that do. I guess we tend to do that in regular life too.

    Another thing to consider is that the writers see the characters and their purpose in the story differently than we do. And they can because it is their story to tell. If they think character A is the best one to tell the story that they want to tell then character A it is. It’s not malicious intent, because if we were telling the story, we would pick the character we wanted to use as well.

    Comment by jace — February 18, 2013 @ 8:01 am

  197. I never said Dean gets nothing. What Dean does get, as someone mentioned, are 1 or 2, sometimes 3 episode story arcs. S1 was the best, because both brothers had equal involvement. Then Dean’s stories became a Story of the Week, if you will. Someone wants to argue that Dean has daddy issues? That’s fine. But if that and PTSD are the only stories he is getting, and we never get them resolved, they start to get annoying.

    Joseph, let me, as a Dean fan, try to understand what you are saying, Season by season. Note: I don’t hate Sam, and I agree the show needs both.

    s1: hunting brothers. Dean comes for Sam. The kill things, save people. This is what I like. I have no complaints about S1. Sam get’s his visions, but I can live with that, as it is needed for s2 story arc. Cool.

    s2: Dean meeting Tessa served no purpose. Other than to have her as a character later on. I didn’t see Dean as suicidal in that season. Grieving is a better term. The main arc explored is what is wrong with Sam. Why is the YED coming for him? Why does Sam have these visions? Who are these special children? Dean kills the YED, but if it weren’t for the overall arc of Sam and his visions, they wouldn’t be in that scenario in the first place. Note: Sam had the chance to kill YED and choked, during S1.

    s3: Dean has a going to hell arc, but, and excuse me if I’m rusty on s3, what exactly happens with that? Every now and then someone says “Oh yeah you’re going to hell, thought I’d remind you.” Ruby, Bella, and Lilith are introduced, and each of them seem to get a little more of a story than the going to hell thing. Ruby sets her role in as the annoying helper, and trying to get Sam to activate his dark powers.
    Also, I didn’t see Dean suicidal in here either. I saw him laughing and enjoying moments, and a little worried about Hell at the end, but other than that, no worrying.

    s4: Dean gets pulled from Hell to stop the breaking of Seals. We see his stress and PTSD from hell, which is fine. Sam’s story, about Ruby, his blood drinking, and his “connection” with her, all take precedence towards the middle/end of the season. Also, Sam is hiding his association with Ruby from Dean. Why does he feel as though he has to do this? The reason the Cas is close to Dean is to get him to kill Alistair, and that was like a 3 episode mytharc. Again, nothing overall or consistent for Dean, except for a few episodes in the beginning.

    s5: What should have been the best since s1, started off solid, and then we have The Letdown. Both brothers, chosen to be vessels. Both brothers, agreeing to say no. They each kill some monsters, do some dirty work with some Horsemen. Sam almost has a few relapses, then oh wait, he goes whole hog and pulls demons from Famine. Just say no, little brother. So Dean get his OMG HUGE CONNECTION WITH DEATH OMG (it was one episode again), and Sam eventually says yes, like we knew he would, and Dean gets overlooked for Adam. Season ends with Dean getting his normal life, but Sam is outside? Oh what does s6 hold for us about Sam???

    s6: I’m rewatching this one at the moment, and I cannot say with a straight face that this season is about Dean. Sam comes back and pulls Dean from his life. How did Sam come back? Who got him back? What’s wrong with him? Why is he working with Papa Cambell? Dean gets like 4-5 episodes at the beginning to decide what happens to his life with Lisa, and he doesn’t go back. But even so, those aren’t all Dean-isodes, because of all of Sam’s issues. They are split. I COULD live with that, except once they find out about Sam’s soul, everything is shunted to the side for Sam and his story. Get his soul back. Make sure he doesn’t relapse. Dean is acting as the bodyguard, not being able to get a story because he has to worry about taking care of Sam. He can’t even claim the ending, with Lisa and Ben coming back, because Sam and his wall are a bigger deal, and then Cas becoming “God.”

    S7: Leviathans. Meh. Frank was cool. Sam’s visions of Lucifer are prominent towards the beginning, then Bobby’s story takes over. Bobby is my next favorite, so I’m cool with this. Dean, meanwhile, is set on revenge for Dick. Again, this, until the last moment of s7, amounts to nothing. Then Dean is shown in Purgatory. That was a great ending. Loved it. Hated s7, but loved the ending and Bobby’s death.

    s8: So far, up til ATGB, the main story was what to do about Benny, and will Sam go back to Amelia, and why didn’t he look for Dean. 2/3 for Sam, and I’ll give Dean half of the line about Benny. Then the MoL: Sam dives into the library, Dean becomes a stay at home dad? No thanks. That isnt who is was during s1-5.

    I’m done. That’s the points I have to bring up, and you can see why T&E upset me.

    As a different topic: I bet killing Benny/Amelia will be a trial. I’d stake my car on it.

    Comment by Thomas A — February 18, 2013 @ 8:44 am

  198. Bahar – I apologize. I think the barrage of “Sam versus Dean” crap just got to me for a moment. The posts just take such a nasty tone. It’s frustrating! Even in the new preview post, it’s the same argument. I just need to stay away from these boards as the conversation never changes. I know everyone has a right to complain or be upset with the show. I guess I’m just tired of reading it at this point.

    But, I would have been fine with Dean doing the trials. I honestly didn’t really form an opinion about who should do them or why it would be better for Dean to do them than Sam or vice versa.

    I also didn’t see Sam as leaving Dean in 5.02. I think Sam recognized that he was in no condition to hunt. He was on edge and craving DB so he took himself out of the hunt. When Lucifer came to him, Sam was understandably upset and did what came natural for him: he reached out to his brother for help. I didn’t see it as Sam using Dean or anything. Plus, when Dean rejected Sam, Sam let it go. He accepted Dean’s response and moved on the best he could. I didn’t see anything wrong with what Sam did in 5.02/5.03 or with how Dean responded. It was fine to me.

    I can’t say anything about Sam not searching for Dean. Apparently, Carver just wanted to explore the idea of Sam not looking. He didn’t have a story in mind or any real purpose for Sam to not search. I discount much of the first half of the season when it comes to Sam because he was terribly OOC. I can’t take Carver’s arc seriously. I’m not even sure if the characters are supposed to remember what they said or did. Since ATGB, the story has been so different and much more in line with the Sypernatural I’ve come to love that the dirst half seems like a different show.

    All I know is the Sam I know loves his neither and would definitely search for him. No crappy story from Carver would ever make me think otherwise.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 18, 2013 @ 9:41 am

  199. Bahar – I apologize. I think the barrage of “Sam versus Dean” crap just got to me for a moment. The posts just take such a nasty tone. It’s frustrating! Even in the new preview post, it’s the same argument. I just need to stay away from these boards as the conversation never changes. I know everyone has a right to complain or be upset with the show. I guess I’m just tired of reading it at this point.

    But, I would have been fine with Dean doing the trials. I honestly didn’t really form an opinion about who should do them or why it would be better for Dean to do them than Sam or vice versa.

    I also didn’t see Sam as leaving Dean in 5.02. I think Sam recognized that he was in no condition to hunt. He was on edge and craving DB so he took himself out of the hunt. When Lucifer came to him, Sam was understandably upset and did what came natural for him: he reached out to his brother for help. I didn’t see it as Sam using Dean or anything. Plus, when Dean rejected Sam, Sam let it go. He accepted Dean’s response and moved on the best he could. I didn’t see anything wrong with what Sam did in 5.02/5.03 or with how Dean responded. It was fine to me.

    I can’t say anything about Sam not searching for Dean. Apparently, Carver just wanted to explore the idea of Sam not looking. He didn’t have a story in mind or any real purpose for Sam to not search. I discount much of the first half of the season when it comes to Sam because he was terribly OOC. I can’t take Carver’s arc seriously. I’m not even sure if the characters are supposed to remember what they said or did. Since ATGB, the story has been so different and much more in line with the Sypernatural I’ve come to love that the dirst half seems like a different show.

    All I know is the Sam I know loves his brother and would definitely search for him. No crappy story from Carver would ever make me think otherwise.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 18, 2013 @ 9:41 am

  200. Thomas A.

    Some Sam/Dean fans know what they want to see happen for Dean/Sam and when they don’t see it happening, it doesn’t matter what else has happened with Dean/Sam, it is not satisfying to them. Hence, Dean/Sam gets nothing. Nothing is good enough except what I want for Sam/Dean

    you have a perfect right to be upset about whatever you wish. So do the Sam fans. I think that we should all respect that people have differing points of view about this. I see people here getting incredibly frustrated to the point of personal insults that certain other people will not agree with their pov. However much we explain what we think, there are people who won’t get out pov because they are looking at it differently. It reminds me of the old blue/green debate. If you like blue, how can I possibly convince you that green is better?

    Some folks seem to be mad that Carver is telling this story with Sam doing the trials (or so it seems right now.) Like Sam has stolen something from Dean. But if this is Sam’s redemption story–the one that several people on here have said he needs for not looking for Dean, than that’s the story Carver wants to tell and Sam hasn’t stolen anything. But there could be twists ahead, who knows how it will all end up.

    The online audience is a very small part of the overall audience and I am willing to bet that most of the casual viewers of Supernatural, who make of the bulk of the ratings, do not care which brother does the trials and only want a good story to be told.

    Comment by jace — February 18, 2013 @ 10:53 am

  201. Jace, I’m one of those online viewers who just wants a good story. I don’t care who does the trials; just tell a decent story. I finally feel that’s happening this season! Don’t know if this good feeling will last so I have to enjoy it while I can!

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 18, 2013 @ 11:46 am

  202. @200, Jace:

    Thank you for a calm and rational response.
    I have no problem with Carver telling his story the way he wants. I honestly, and I might get some whip lashing for this, dont have a problem with Sam having a story. My problems comes with the lack of story for Dean. Give Sam a story. Give him 2. But give Dean SOMETHING.

    And I agree, the voices of 50 or so people on 1 site don’t make up for the millions who watch. I’m open to debating the show. And I use facts over opinions any day. The trials were set up to be right up Dean’s alley.
    In my opinion, Sam’s redemption could have been taking one for the team and letting Lucifer in. Save the planet at personal risk. The trials story would have been PTB apology to the Dean fans, for cutting him out of a good story for a long while here.

    We’ll see. We’re teased with the return of Benny, so I guess we’ll get something with Dean, even if it is his reliable “1 episode hero moment” deal that happens at the end of almost every season.

    Comment by Thomas A — February 18, 2013 @ 4:56 pm

  203. The problem doesn’t begin or end with which brother gets to do the both stories. It’s the fact that an HONEST story is not being told.

    Dean came back from Purgatory being a self-confident, decisive, elite hunter who had a sense of himself apart from Sam. And Jeremy Carver specifically said that the morose over his life and losses, drunken, doping Dean story was over…even had Dean say early on in 8.01 that he was a changed man.

    Then, in every episode, including this one, Sam was shown to be a fairly incompetent hunter that wanted to go back to his married girlfriend who he had lived almost the full year with in a motel room, while he did maintenance work and very far away from the hunting.

    He had dumped Dean and dumped Kevin with no remorse at all. In this episode alone, he showed no remorse at Earl’s death, but Dean did. Sam took the gun away from Margo and left her to wander alone knowing a hell hound was in the woods while he stalked it elsewhere. He showed no remorse or concern when she was killed. Nor did he show any concern or remorse for Alice or Elle.

    He cuffed the family, then stared out the window while Alice escaped from the loose cuffs. He didn’t notice her until she was leaving the door. Then he tells her to go back to the house alone, knowing a hell hound was close by.

    And where did Dean’s suicidal tendencies come from all of a sudden. Are they left over from his Hell experience, or are they something that has now arisen from his Purgatory experience? It doesn’t matter, because neither fits in with why Dean would fight every second of every day in Purgatory, plus be fully committed to rescuing Cas, if he was suicidal or that he was just a grunt with no future. It makes no sense.

    Then there’s the screwed up hellhound lore. Alice obviously heard the hellhound, along with Earl, because she went to check the horses. But the hellhound never went after her, so did she make a deal or not?

    I could never tell whether Sam heard it or not; sometimes it appeared as though he did and sometimes not.

    Dean obviously heard it when he was with Elle, but canon has made it most clear that only people who have made deals can hear hellhounds.

    And why was the hellhound even going after Dean. They only go after the person that made the deal. The thing should have made a beeline for Elle and not worried about Dean or Sam.

    Then there is Crowley not telling anyone about the ten years. This is Crowley, who has been shown in several episodes to be meticulous about following the rules and finding the loopholes in those deals. That’s what made him such a delectable villain. But in this episode, he cheated?

    Then there’s the logic to Sam being the anointed one. In doing so, the writers have taken away the one single thing that keeps suicidal Dean going — his confidence in his hunting abilities and Sam telling him that his confidence in those abilities are wrong — that it will find real happiness like he did, with a screwing a married and/or bitchy partner and doing maintenance work.

    Logically, Sam should no longer even be going on the weekly hunts, because if he gets killed, then the goal of closing the gates of Hell cannot be accomplished. That pretty much says that Dean is, in fact, an expendable cape bearing grunt. In fact, if Dean is so extremely suicidal and thinks his life is worth nothing, then he shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a hunt either.

    The dishonesty in the storytelling that has been going on all season is the real problem here.

    Comment by Sheri — February 18, 2013 @ 6:12 pm

  204. Loved this episode! Everything about it. Dean’s room, Kevin, Dean loves Sam, Sam loves Dean, both guys wearing glasses, etc. LOVED IT!

    Comment by Jennifer — February 18, 2013 @ 6:16 pm

  205. OK. Best thing about the epi: Sam telling Dean he’s not a grunt and the best female character we’ve seen introduced since Ellen. (No coincidence she’s called Ellie, if you ask me.)
    @roxi – I didn’t think it could be done – but Ellie looks the be the best candidate for a love interest we’ve seen in a while. Ellie’s a person of substance – hardworking and observant. She’s not going to discount a man who works with his hands, she loves animals, and is willing to sacrifice her soul for her family. She’s also TOTALLY Dean’s type – a dark-haired beauty with a touch of the exotic about her. She understands the supernatural world, knows what Dean and Sam are, has a reason to be on the run, and a reason to want protection. She’s sexually confident and attracted to Dean – but didn’t sleep with him the first time she met him. Seriously, roxi – if they’re going to give Dean a romance with someone other than Castiel – this chick’s got it all. So I’m happy for you. Personally, I still think there’s problems with him being involved with any human. I’m rooting for Cas, what can I say, but hopefully you’ll forgive me that.
    Let me also add that the contrast with Amelia was actively painful to me. I feel bad for the actress, who got shafted with a particularly unlikeable character.
    @Sheri – I agree with some of your earlier comments – I thought the writing was off. The plot was ok, but the pacing seemed off. They didn’t pull off the ‘Dallas’ or ‘Nashville’ parodies. Words like ‘pallid’ and ‘insipid’ come to mind when thinking about the secondary characters. Plus I had major issues with Dean’s room – he would NEVER leave his mom’s picture out of his sight. Plus no pics or mementos from Bobby, Sam, or Cas? No color on the walls, plus where were the weaspons from – not the Impala, since is still actively hunting and he didn’t appear to have scavenged them from the batcave. I could go on.
    And some of the dialog was just terrible. “I love a man who can handle his meat”. Really? I mean REALLY? Or “I’m nesting”. And they had problems with Sera Gamble’s dialogue? I’m sorry, but if Dean was nesting he wouldn’t be interior decorating. He’d be holed up in some workshop he found in the batcave, with grease under his fingernails and Metallica blasting in the background, designing whole new terrifying weapons that were Dean-specials, like Samuel Colt come again. (end rant. deep breath. Can you tell I was annoyed?)At the very least I wanted to see him explore the batcave. I would love to see him find a treasure trove of 50′s elegant suits. Or adopt a hugh hefner smoking jacket. (I hated the bathrobe they gave him in the last epi. Way too much grey, and nothing sensual about it.) Even better would be if they discovered a time-traveller’s wardrobe. You KNOW he wouldn’t be able to resist playing dress-up.

    Here’s a couple things to think about. I think they gave Sam the tasks to give him a redemption arc with Dean. Have him show that he values and respects Dean and is willing to sacrifice for him. See – be careful what you wish for. Maybe that means they’ll have Dean be the MoL. Maybe he’s slated to become a saint (ok, stop laughing. If Saint Augustine could become a pillar of the church, anyone can do it.) Or an angel (like Enoch and his brother). Yeah. Didn’t know he had a brother did you? Sandalphon. Also known as ‘the tall angel’, who ceaselessly battles with Satan. Can we say an ending to the series that doesn’t involve Thelma and Louse’ing it?
    Anyway. I givet this epi a 7 out of 10. A solid effort, even if you can’t dance to it.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 18, 2013 @ 11:39 pm

  206. One other thing…I really miss Cas. I know you guys aren’t Cas fans. I like the brothers, but I’m really jonesing for a Cas episode. Leaving him mind-raped and bleeding and about to go back into the unkind hands of his captor… for like five episodes is just cruel to Cas fans.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 18, 2013 @ 11:50 pm

  207. 205- T1gerlilly, I promised not to post much anymore, but I’ll delurk to answer you. I don’t think Ellie will be anything but a oneoff character, since she’s in danger of being ripped to shreds by hellhounds anyway, and I’ll believe Dean will get a real love interest when I see it. But I liked her. The only problem might be that she’s a lot younger than Dean.Animal says Ellie’s supposed to be a recurring character, by the way, does anybody know anything more about that? I would like to see her come back and have something with Dean.
    I do have to wonder what’s up with Dean giving Kevin uppers, and how the hell did he get them?
    Of course, I have thought that Dean has been popping pills for a couple of seasons now, even though it’s never been addressed it’s been hinted at.
    Sorry, I’ll delurk again and go back to the shadows.

    Comment by roxi — February 19, 2013 @ 5:26 am

  208. Dea is no more suicidal than he always was. He will die to protect Sammy, big surprise. Alice heard the horses and Earl heard the HH. Also the HH did not go after Dean, He got between the HH and Elle.

    Comment by AW — February 19, 2013 @ 6:06 am

  209. Now that we’re talking about love interest, I think Sarah from season one would be the perfect lover for Sam. If instead of introducing Amelia they’d brought her back I think people would like their love story much better.

    Comment by bahar — February 19, 2013 @ 6:55 am

  210. Sheri–I get the suicidal Dean. It is not a Dean consciously-looking for ways to end his life; it is a Dean grown comfortable with the idea that hunters die young and that that is his fate. He doesn’t have to go out and try to get killed and isn’t going to deliberately try to die. However, he has accepted the idea that if he simply does his job as he sees it, stays in hunting, he will die on the job. He could drop out of hunting and prevent that, but he has chosen, and since purgatory recommitted to, hunting which is in fact a form of suicide. I don’t think this is a return to Sera’s befuddled, depressed Dean, but a Dean fully committed to hunting, a commitment he believes will end in his death. The guy who smokes 3 packs a day isn’t putting a gun to his head; there must come a time however when he realizes he is committing suicide unless he stops smoking.
    I took Sam’s comment as saying you don’t have to be a hunter. You can drop out. You don’t have to stay in a profession bound to kill you even if you are so bound to that fate as any Winchester seems to be. Sam did drop out; he is still committed to dropping out once the gates are closed. So he feels he can move Dean toward the same realization of the possibility of abandoning hunting. (Don’ t think Sam’s intention was to say that you too can have a married woman who will meet you in various motel rooms between your handy-man work at dilapidated motels ; it was a little more thoughtful than that.)
    Agree about Crowley. His not telling people about the ten years leaped out at me–so uncharacteristic of the character and crossroads demons who have been portrayed as demons who prey on human desire and exploit human weakness in their deals. Victims in deals make a choice to get what they want and are fully complicit in the deal to be great artists, or architects, cure their wife’s illness, etc. Tricking people into a deal seems new to me and removes the human responsibility from the equation
    Also agree about the hell hounds. They got redone. Who hears them and who they pursue got redefined. In Devil You Know Crowley’s had his big hell hound at his command. Perhaps that is what is being played here; that is my only explanation. Perhaps in both cases, how the deals are done and how the hell hounds are used, the usual rules, don’t apply if Crowley is involved.

    Bahar–so completely agree about Sarah in season one. She has always been may favorite love interest of either brother.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 19, 2013 @ 7:15 am

  211. My point was meant to be that this is straight-up formula writing. They’re trying to return to a better time in the show by repeating the concepts that were used at the time. I’m not saying it’s necessarily bad. I’ve actually liked the last few episodes. Just that it’s hard to ignore the lack of focus in the show. I think they’re on the right track to fixing what seemed to be broken but they haven’t quite gotten there yet. They need more baseline creativity. I, for one, am hoping that they explore the Men Of Letters thing a lot more. Stabbing the enemy with a knife was fine…for 8 seasons. But it’s getting old. Why not upgrade the Winchesters. Some of the greatest moments of the show have been watching them try to deal with something new. And they really need something new. I know the numbers are doing ok for CW to hold on while they don’t have anything better but the show can’t last much longer and how much longer it lasts will rely heavily on the creativity. Bottom line is the characters need to grow.

    And I guess all of this Dean vs. Sam thing helps the fanbase remain committed but it really is a bit silly. The show has never really favored one over the other. The writers just go along with what seems to make sense to them. Sam for the more cerebral and emotional things and Dean for the more nitty gritty things. That’s who the characters are. Obviously they have their moments when they cross over a bit but it would be odd for them to just suddenly do something very out of character and stick with it.

    Comment by mythos — February 19, 2013 @ 7:57 am

  212. @ t1gerlilly #205: What jumped out to me about the room is the old manual Remington typewriter with paper in it. Is Dean going to be writing a non-fiction novel now?

    Also, the vinyl records, one of them being Def Leppard. If I remember correctly, cassettes were the thing when Dean was born, and I seriously doubt that the MoL in the late 50s were listening to Def Leppard, or has Dean been dragging them around in the trunk of the Impala? Did he haul the Memory mattress in on top of the Impala?

    Stuff like this is why I say the writers are giving us character sketches of the Winchesters; not fully developed ones.

    I really think the Show should have addressed the bunker more; maybe shown the brothers discovering a stockpile of gold currency, or gold itself, and a pile of bonds. Something to show that they actually have some kind of income for all that they buy, gas for driving, and food. Something that explains their livelihood now, since they aren’t, and haven’t, scammed or shot pool for years and years now. Were there weapons in there, or herbs for spells? There is lots that need an explanation.

    @ CaseyT #210: I do agree that Dean has always been fatalistic and pragmatic. Perhaps that was what Sam’s speech meant, but there’s still those first ten episodes that makes me think that Sam can’t be trusted and nothing was shown that would indicate why he should be. I wonder if the writers even realize how really awful they made Sam look.

    Then to just insert Sam giving Dean a “I’ll lead you to the light,” speech as if none of what previously shown went on is dishonest storytelling. And that doesn’t even begin to touch the fact that we’ve seen this “what’s wrong with Sam” story for seven years already.

    The writers just cannot dismiss one-third of what they showed in a season. (Well, apparently they can, since I am, apparently, one of a handful of people that thought that the sudden turn-around sucked big time, and it has gotten rave reviews all around.)

    Sam says Dean has ‘friends,’ and I think of Benny and how Sam tried very, very hard to KILL him. Are the friends Garth, Kevin, Mrs. Tran, and Charlie? I absolutely hate these characters that Carver has repopulated the hunting community with when I compare them to the believable characters like Bobby, Rufus, Ellen, Ash, and even Victor Hendrickson. These current characters are dribble compared to them, so much less than any Winchester would hang out with, and these are the people that Dean would associate with? I don’t buy it. Dean is one tough SOB, tolerant of others; yes, but not chummy with them.

    But, back to Sam’s speech. It wasn’t an honest attempt by the writers, even if Sam was trying to tell Dean that he had other options. We were told by the showrunner himself that Dean came back a truly committed hunter; that he had found his purpose. The show gave us a confident, decisive, highly competent and tough hunter for half a season, and then dumped that for his old fatalistic self just to ‘put the brothers back together again.’ That’s not only dishonest storytelling, it’s incompetent storytelling.

    Which leads to the point that the show has given us no good reason why the brothers even want to pursue hunting, making Sam’s speech all the more puzzling. The Show has consistently painted hunting as a horrible, crummy, thankless, just awful thing to do, full of nothing but loss and misery, and no good future. We’ve seen that four seven years. Yet what the boys are doing this season is totally self-committed. They have decided to undertake this near suicide mission, but other than saying they want to do it, there is no compelling reason for them to do it. How, or more appropriately, why should fans invest in something that is so awful and root for the heroes to through all of it so they can drift back into just two of the billions? It makes no sense.

    If Sam is looking to the future and promising Dean he will lead him to it, too, why not just quit and go pursue college again, look for another woman, go live a mundane life, if that’s what makes him happy? If Dean doesn’t want to die young and wants to write a novel or go hunt up Lisa/Ben, then go do it. There is positively nothing that has been shown that is keeping either of them from doing that, other than they have chosen to do it, and that is not a heroes journey.

    Comment by Sheri — February 19, 2013 @ 5:02 pm

  213. The truth is that Sam and Dean’s lives have been rigged b4 they were even born and even their parents loves for eachother too was rigged by angel orders.

    Sam never chose to be infected with demon blood at 6 months old and yes Sam betrayed Dean and chose demon Ruby…at the writers hands and both brothers have lied to eachother and too manipulated eachother at the writers hands…so if any fan is unhappy with their Winchester favorite then go blame the writers or showrunner as in Carver.

    Yes too @Sheri …that Sam has been painted as the bad darksided brother too…but @jarpad loves playing a bad ,wicked Sam & enjoyed playing Souless Sam too….so don’t feel bad about it.

    I do see both brothers as following their heritage of fighting EVIL and as Henry said that means there is always hope.

    Sam and Dean do fight with eachother but in the end they do fight Evil …so they are Heroes ..even though not perfect human beings or characters .

    Comment by ozzie — February 20, 2013 @ 5:07 am

  214. @212 Sheri
    Why Sam and Dean don’t quit and go live their happy lives? Because they want to get the gates of hell closed for good. To get rid of the Demons once and for all. Because their whole lives where destroyed because of a Demon. There are a lot of reasons why they are not packing it up and getting their happily ever after.

    That conversation was a very nice moment between the brothers. I KNOW that some fans are not happy with it. Some are. I know you are not happy with the way the show is going.

    I thought the way Sam spoke to Dean would have at least made you kind of happy. I know you don’t like or trust Sam. But could you at least be ok with the nice things he said to Dean and not go all negative on them?

    It was a beautiful moment, he told Dean that he matter. I just don’t get the way you always focus on the negative. It us just my opinion and I know you are expressing yours. But I thought that scene would have made you appreciate the moment like some of us did.

    Comment by Jose — February 20, 2013 @ 1:51 pm

  215. I have watched every episode of supernatural and I have loved them all. Do you know why? Because I don`t take it seriously. It`s just escapism. Some of you people have to chill out, take a step back, and take a look at yourselves. Sheri; your pathetic. Anyway, back to the story. I am glad to see Amanda Tapping show up in a couple of bit parts, I hope they expand on that because I`ve always liked her as an actress. I am also glad the show is coming back for another season. Keep up the good work people.

    Comment by Larry Ward — February 26, 2013 @ 7:29 pm

  216. Sorry Sheri, I should have said you`re pathetic.

    Comment by Larry Ward — February 26, 2013 @ 7:31 pm

  217. I liked the episode but I hated the Ellie character if she came back I d actually stop watching,reallyone of the worst female characters.

    Comment by michi — February 27, 2013 @ 9:53 am

  218. I hated Ellies I can t stress enough how much
    I usually don t say that but she actually made woman look bad, I am really glad Dean rejected her
    the rest of the episode was well written with no unnecessary conflict between the brothers

    Comment by fan2 — March 3, 2013 @ 1:45 am

  219. I love supernatural. My husband an I watch re runs every morning, we both are obsessed lol. I think that dean Winchester/ Jensen Ackles is a good actor an his good looks are nice to watch. Keep up the good work and keep the seasons coming

    Comment by Christina Alcorn — March 19, 2013 @ 5:50 am

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