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“Man’s Best Friend with Benefits” Discussion

Post your thoughts below or click HERE for my full recap.

Yawn. I’m sorry, I know Supernatural episodes are like children and you’re supposed to love them all, but this episode fell flat for me. The witch cop having sex with his familiar just never worked for me, especially since Dean didn’t make ANY jokes. I mean, isn’t he curious if they do it doggie style?

Lack of bestiality jokes aside, this was just filler while Sam and Dean wait for Kevin to translate Trial #2. At least the opening and closing scenes between the brothers moved some stuff forward, and it’s always nice to see a quick montage of the many, many times things have gone very bad. I suppose Dean was too busy dealing with the whole “Sam is gonna do the trials” issue to focus on dog jokes. Like asking if she ever sniffs his butt.

The ending is something we all knew was coming sooner or later. There’s no way closing the Gates of Hell will come without a huge price, and if you’ve ever seen a sad movie, you know that a scene of a character coughing up a little blood foreshadows death. Come on, SPN, can’t we end just ONE season on a positive note?

News posted on February 20, 2013 Comments (158)

158 Comments »

  1. Are they just remaking season 5?

    Comment by mythos — February 20, 2013 @ 7:07 pm

  2. That was a good episode. I just adore Sam’s love for dogs. first it was Bones, then Riot and now this dog. I cant get enough of these two really amazing people. they turn a story about those that are surreal and bring an element of reality to it through their charismatic and absolutely beautiful personalities

    Comment by savbav — February 20, 2013 @ 7:17 pm

  3. I <3 sam and dean

    Comment by savbav — February 20, 2013 @ 7:18 pm

  4. My thoughts in no particular order. That was romantic. The actress who played the familiar was just gorgeous. Like – insanely gorgeous. Cool female characters two epis in a row. I’m so glad they didn’t go for the lowbrow humor. It would have ruined it. The plot was pretty predictable – no surprises there. The best dialog was in the opening scene. And the dog didn’t get enough screen time. I know y’all are going to complain that the dog got a storyline and Dean didn’t. But I don’t care. The more dog time the better, I say.
    And I’m bored without Cas. None of the dialog between the brothers about their endless issues made any sense.
    Trust each other. Don’t trust each other. I don’t care anymore. And honestly, with that much water under the bridge – it doesn’t make SENSE for Dean to trust Sam. And it doesn’t make sense for Sam to expect him to.
    Sigh.
    Where’s Bobby when you need him to tell those moody idjects to get the hell over their issues and grow the hell up.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 20, 2013 @ 7:18 pm

  5. firstly, it s idjits not idjects. And yeah. I kinda agree with you that I miss Bobby and Castiel. Season 5 with everybody was so damn amazing

    Comment by savbav — February 20, 2013 @ 7:20 pm

  6. uhh… I knew that episode wouldn’t do it for me. seriously, I felt like witchcraft was a bit overused here.

    Comment by damn — February 20, 2013 @ 7:24 pm

  7. I do miss Bobby playing the middle man of common sense when the brothers are at odds …but not Castiel .

    Not missing Castiel or any angel on SPN.

    Someone posted that Sam had ..had sex with Portia? I guess I missed that part..LOL.

    I give this eppie a C+ ….and really enjoyed ALL THE BROTHER moments.

    Comment by ozzie — February 20, 2013 @ 7:38 pm

  8. Ozzie – which brother moments ? snippy!sam or lying!Sam? Suspicious!Dean or blindlyLoyal!Dean?
    This whole trial thing has “not going to end well” written all over it.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 20, 2013 @ 7:48 pm

  9. Gee, at least you all got to watch it. Seems like Dish Network in my area is having a pricing war with Fox and the CW so I couldn’t see it. Sniffle, I guess I will have to download it this week off itunes or whatever. Means no Nascar either. Drat, may have to switch to Direct TV if this goes any longer. Looks like there is a new ep next week? Can I get switched by then? Drat, drat, drat!

    Comment by twinster — February 20, 2013 @ 7:51 pm

  10. I think the show has sunk to a new low with this episode. A woman owned by a man, the happy slave servicing her master sexually, wearing a pretty pink collar. The few parts that weren’t offensively bad were just plan badly written. One of the worst episodes ever.

    Comment by Jaylyn — February 20, 2013 @ 7:54 pm

  11. @jaylyn er. Good points. I did keep expecting her to fetch his slippers for him.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 20, 2013 @ 8:05 pm

  12. Enjoyed it. Not as much as the last three, but still much better than 1-9. Wish I had not seen the dog-girl bit in the motel room at the beginning; that was the most memorable segment in the episode. Did enjoy the “familiar” idea, and the actress who played the showcased familiar character nailed that role. Would like to see her again. Enjoyed Dean and the obvious bestiality issues. Loved it when Dean ask the familiar about the sex arrangement of familiar and master in last night’s sex. Dean not only thinks, he verbalize what everyone is thinking but few would have the courage to ask. And, not telling Sam a bestiality joke obviously annoyed Sam more than telling one. It was a nice who-done-it that kept me involved. I too liked Sam’s comment that Dean only trusts himself which of course Dean has plenty of reasons to justify, particularly concerning Sam, but Dean did not use Sam’s comment to set off another brotherly shouting match. Carver seems to want to reinforce the brothers’ working together as the path to success by how they act together and I like that; I really don’t need that in dialogue any more. It has been said and acted out; get on with the series. It was worth watching, and four outings in a row uncluttered with endlessly repetitive angel antics pleases me. It is so much better not to have to watch Dean wasted playing his supporting character role in another Castiel story. They do need to get some new shades for small table lamps. Those pink ones have now been used in multiple episodes over years of the series. A trip to Walmart will not blow the props budget.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 20, 2013 @ 8:07 pm

  13. I also thought she had the most agency in the story – and she did make it clear that she chose him freely and could make her own decisions.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 20, 2013 @ 8:09 pm

  14. I don’t find it any less offensive that she is allowed to choose her master. The cat familiar also made it clear that since his master ordered him to do something, he had to obey.

    Comment by Jaylyn — February 20, 2013 @ 8:12 pm

  15. Not a great episode but- for me- it did have some good points. It got the boys out of their cave and back into a motel room. It did have alittle mystery to it- though it was clear which witch was doing what. I loved the Doberman; a beautiful dog.

    But the “connection” between the brothers- non-existent.

    Sam wonders why Dean does not trust him? Why the hell should he? Just a couple of weeks ago Sam helped to knock out his brother and lock him up so he could go kill an “innocent” vamp because HE DIDN’T trust Dean. And because of Sam’s stupidity, an innocent woman almost got killed. Sam did not spend a second looking for his brother (Yep THAT again!) and when Dean returned Sam blamed him for taking away “the love of his life”. And yet Sam cannot figure out why Dean does not trust him.

    And the standard jokes against Dean in this episode; he was written to be a dumb dirty-minded idiot (who didn’t like dogs) and Sam was made out to be the serious genius here. Sick of this crappy writing.

    And there Dean is again- at the end of the episode- promising to throw himself under a bus for his brother while Sam sits there and lies to him once again.

    If I didn’t know this show I would Dean was a real idiot.

    But, no. The writers are.

    Another crappy swarm of episodes to look forward to where Sam lies to Dean and Dean trusts him like a blind fool.

    Yes, please, bring back Castiel! If it weren’t for the actors I would delete this show from my viewing screen.

    Comment by SL — February 20, 2013 @ 8:39 pm

  16. Lackluster episode. Will not remember it. Predictable nose bleed at the end.

    Does anyone think they had the witch see their memories just so Dean could remember those events and realize his brother can do the trials? Terrible. Dean shouldn’t need a witch to remember what has happened in their past.

    I’ll have to agree with some of you that it’s getting old having Dean and Sam fight over who does what, Dean being a pushover and Sam lying…It hasn’t really bothered me until tonight.

    I thought for a minute Dean was going to bring up Sam not looking for him when he was in Purgatory but that didn’t happen.

    If I were Dean I’d go off and kill a Hell hound without Sam knowing, just in case.

    Could care less about Castiel, but with what, 8 episodes left in the season, I’m sure he will be in the bulk of them.

    Comment by CS — February 20, 2013 @ 9:21 pm

  17. The purpose of this season is for Dean to learn to trust Sam no matter what.

    Comment by bahar — February 20, 2013 @ 9:33 pm

  18. didn’t he already learn that in S5? I have no idea why they are recycling what we didn’t like even the first time?

    Comment by bahar — February 20, 2013 @ 9:41 pm

  19. Well, put this episode in the pantheon of worst episodes of the series. This was problematic on many, many levels. The social constructs re: Portia/James, the plot, the endless exposition, the focus on guest stars over the heroes, the characterization, continuity–it was all really painful.

    As for Sam and Dean, well, here’s the reason not to trust the speeches from last week. Sam and Dean were competing, but in the last scene Sam takes the hypocrite crown. Shaming Dean for not trusting you (despite having given them plenty of reason not to trust in this season alone) and once receiving that declaration of trust immediately concealing the truth from Dean? Top notch. If I thought show was actually going to make Sam face some consequences and have to face his own issues here, I’d be intrigued. But what’s the likelihood that’s going to happen?

    Comment by yeah — February 20, 2013 @ 9:59 pm

  20. @yeah
    I bet at the end everything will be dean’s fault again. First Sam sacrificed his GREAT love to be with his sorry excuse for a brother and dean was a bitc* for holding him back and now Sam is sacrificing his own health to keep his sorry brother alive and again dean is a bitc* for not trusting him.

    Comment by bahar — February 20, 2013 @ 10:16 pm

  21. WHO THE HELL IS JAMES ?????

    Next time the boys reconnect with an “old friend,” it would be nice to have actually seen him/her in an episode at some point. Supernatural has, after all, been around for SEVEN+ seasons.

    Very lazy writing!!

    Comment by JJA — February 20, 2013 @ 10:18 pm

  22. Same old, same old. I think I’m going to cry.

    Comment by Haley 56 — February 20, 2013 @ 10:20 pm

  23. This season they’re portraying Dean as a complete as* too. I know if I started watching this season I would hate this Dean. He’s an idiot, he’s IQ is under the bus. He’s clumsy and can’t do ANYTHING right. He’s selfish and only cares about his brother. He’s a total a** to anyone else. We always talk about Sam but dean is seriously out of character too. Some might say it’s because he became a badass because of purgatory but in season 1&2 dean was a badass too but only to monsters and demons not some kid like Kevin or his poor grandfather or happy garth or….

    Comment by bahar — February 20, 2013 @ 10:36 pm

  24. JJA…. James was back a few seasons, he was a dog(german shepherd) that was trying to protect woman and her son, she had no idea that he was actually a human person, in the end after she was (I think) kidnapped she saw her transform into the dog and that’s when she found out and kicked him out of the house. I believe that was the episode. I had a good laugh at the cat in the episode. And in the end I think Dean is some how going to jump in and help Sam, cause Sam didn’t look too good at the end. So something is going to happen. The episode reminded me a lot of the animals and humans in Golden Compass for some reason.

    Comment by Kara — February 20, 2013 @ 10:42 pm

  25. Sam is OOC only in his interactions with dean like when he didn’t look for him or wasn’t happy to have him back, but other than that HE IS SAM. But dean is OOC all the time except when he’s talking with little Sammy. I HATE these writers. Even in season 6&7 the brothers weren’t this much out of character.
    I loved this show I even handled a poor season like 7 but I can’t handle this.

    Comment by bahar — February 20, 2013 @ 10:47 pm

  26. I thought the episode was well done, I agree it felt like another filer episode but it was a good filer.
    I liked how they brought back another old character from another season to help in this season. Another thing I like was the woman and how they brought in Sam’s love for dogs again.
    I had no idea Dean didn’t like dogs until this season. I hope they bring more characters from the other seasons in. I would like to see that woman from Rote 666, her and Dean love interest might be good for him.
    Sam coughing up blood is now making me worry, I agree that closing the gates to hell might come at a price I just hope it will be at the cost of Sam’s life. They kill the brothers off so many times each season I think the only season they didn’t die in was season 1,4,6, and 7.
    Wish Sam had told Dean that he coughed up blood I don’t think it will be long until Dean notices something is up.
    What Supernatural without some brotherly trust issues and lying.

    Comment by Supernaturalfan — February 20, 2013 @ 10:49 pm

  27. @jaymay – holy f@ck! How did I miss that. Ugh. Now the whole thing is just sick. Melding of souls, my ass. (Shivers all over).

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 21, 2013 @ 12:12 am

  28. Kara @24, I believe the episode you are talking about is “All Dogs Go To Heaven”. The german shepard was a skin-walker who had been homeless before he was turned then became the family’s pet. He was not a friend of the Winchester, he was not a policeman, and most certainly did not save Sam and Dean’s lives.

    Comment by Haley 56 — February 21, 2013 @ 1:17 am

  29. I liked this episode-but then again i always like episodes that bring back flashbacks and the feels of s1-s3. this one did. man -are some of you sensitive about the woman in the collar thing. they had a man in a collar as well -so its even. no big deal for me. the man was the one tied up and the woman had the brains to get help. so i am not getting your discompfort with that. i have swallowed my discompfort with alot more than that with things in this show. i remind myself its a damn show-look at the whole picture-just sayin.

    i loved the humor in this episode-dean being like the early dean with the inappropriate comments and questions. the writers are definately trying to bring the classic supernatural feel back to the show this year. i for one apreciate it. don’t miss the angels/demons. wish i never had to have castiel cross my screen again. but i know that is coming.

    all in all -not bad, not great with this episode. its a shame though that we are once again doing the “whats wrong with sam?” sam lying to dean thing once again. 8 years in a row. yeah!!! (sarcasm). maybe there will be a twist at the end. we can only hope. oH and one more thing-sams speech to dean about not trusting sam but actually only trusting himself??? ummmmm dean trusts benny. so no sam-dean doesn’t have trust issues.

    Comment by animal — February 21, 2013 @ 3:45 am

  30. I thought it was a good episode. Solid filler. It wasn’t as good as the past three episodes but it was better than episodes 1-11, IMO.

    As far as the brothers fighting, I can’t say it bothered me. I thought it was good to show that things weren’t magically healed by last week’s speeches. Things are still a little tense but not overbearingly so as it has been at various times since S4. To me, this was a good tense, an argument that made sense for the brothers.

    I feel two ways about Dean not mentioning Sam not looking for him as the reason he distrusts Sam. There is a part of me that agrees with those who wondered why Dean didn’t mention that as his reason for distrusting Sam. Plus, given Dean’s speech in the episode with the penny, I’m shocked Sam is surprised Dean doesn’t trust him. Is this really news for Sam? That said, I, personally, found everything about Sam not looking for Dean to be highly OOC. It was so OOC that there is a part of me that is fine with the writers ignoring it. That part of the story seems to be “done and dusted” as the boys say, including all of Dean’s issues with Sam. I don’t know why these things were introduced if they didn’t plan on addressing them. But putting aside Sam not looking for Dean, I thought the argument was classic Sam and Dean. That’s probably why it didn’t bother me that much, but it was clunky given the events of this season.

    I also think it is very in character for Sam to put off telling Dean how he’s suffering from the trials. I don’t have a problem with that. What can Dean do anyway? Kevin told them that whoever underwent the trials would suffer from major problems, which is why Dean wanted to do them. I know some think Sam is an awful person and a sneaky liar but it’s all about perspective. I see it as Sam not wanting his brother to worry rather than him being an evil liar or something but that’s just me. Apart from S4 (I’m discounting this season’s OOC acts), I’ve never had an issue with Sam.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 21, 2013 @ 4:29 am

  31. I think the problem with Sam not wanting to worry Dean and therefore lying to him is that it never ever works out. Dean always finds out, and he’s always hurt by it. It never saves Dean from worrying–he’s already worried and once he finds out Sam’s keeping things from him he’ll once again realize trusting Sam is a bad move. I wouldn’t mind Sam keeping this to himself if he hadn’t basically just shamed Dean for not trusting him. Sam just proved he doesn’t deserve that trust.

    Also, if last week, we were supposed to think Sam was trying to shore up some of Dean’s self-esteem issues, saying “Well, there’s nothing you could do to help me because you certainly never have saved me when all seemed lost before, so I unilaterally decided you didn’t know the person watching your back was coughing up blood.” Telling Dean he doesn’t need his help, his comfort, and that he doesn’t need to know anything is not going to convince Dean of the rock-solid nature of their partnership. If the situation were flipped, Sam wouldn’t accept, “Well, you couldn’t do anything anyway, Sam.”

    Honestly, Sam is supposed to be brilliant, yet he never learns from his mistakes and he’s just as much of a hypocrite as he thinks Dean is. Dean is one, too, but show calls him on his issues. Let’s see if show calls Sam on this one, and if it actually sinks in for Sam this time.

    Comment by yeah — February 21, 2013 @ 4:52 am

  32. And no, that doesn’t mean that Sam is an awful person. But yeah, it does mean that he’s being a sneaky liar right now. He has good qualities and bad, just like Dean. His demanding to be treated as an equal while trying to take on John’s need-to-know authoritarian ways is a negative. It’s no different than pointing out Dean’s flaws, and show’s done that before. Even in this episode, show highlighted Dean’s trust issues (however justified they might be, he can’t hold them and be a good partner), and he’s supposed to be moving forward from this moment. Of course, once he finds out he suddenly trust Sam it will all go south again.

    Maybe it’s just the extreme repetitiveness that’s the problem.

    Comment by yeah — February 21, 2013 @ 5:04 am

  33. If Dean did the exact same thing Sam did at the very end of the episode- hid the nosebleed and said he was good- he would be called every name in the book here for “lying to poor Sammy”. But because it is Sam it is “in character” because he doesn’t want “to worry” Dean.

    I thought the writers of the past few seasons were horrible but these ones are a TOTAL FAILURE.

    Comment by SL — February 21, 2013 @ 5:10 am

  34. @SL
    Doesn’t that work the other way around too? Dean would be called names because he was “Lying to poor Sammy” and now Sam is being called names because he was “Lying to poor Dean”

    If you are a Dean fan, Sam is a wrong because he lied to Dean. If you are a Sam fan, Dean is wrong because he lied to Sam.

    People, what show have you been watching, this two morons have been lying to each other since the beginning. They always do thinking they are protecting the other one and they always end up hurting each other. Come on!!!!!

    Most people seem to forget that a lot of this crap is the input of one John Winchester. This is how he raised Dean. You don’t need to know unless I feel you need to know mentality.

    This is how Dean grew up, that is why he does the same thing to Sam. Dean has for the most part acted like John raised him to act. He will only tell Sam things he feels Sam needs to know, he will always tell Sam that he is ok when he is not.

    And most people don’t mention the fact that this is the way Dean raised Sam to be. Little brothers always do what older brothers do. He has lived with Dean almost all of his live, and “unfortunately” has picked up this nasty little habit.

    I see this as Sam not wanting to worry Dean, because there is nothing Dean can do about it. But like we have always seen in the show, this will come back to bite him in the rear. Just like it has happened to Dean.

    @30 Lisa1 I agree with your post.

    @32 Yeah I also agree with our post.

    @23 bahar Please remember that you think Dean is acting out of character because of the way You see the Dean character. The creator of the show (EK) and the writers dictate what character Dean will have on this particular week. I know they change their minds like crazy chickens running with their heads cut off, but it is what it is.

    Was this a great episode? Not really. But it was a good. We need to realize by now that the boys will act the way they want to, it is just who they are by now. It would be great if the learned form past mistakes, but Winchesters are hard headed that way.

    Comment by Jose — February 21, 2013 @ 5:43 am

  35. I’m tired of all the secrets. Every damn season there’s gotta be something.
    Season 1: Sam hides his visions of jess’s death from Dean.
    Season 2: Dean hides john’s last words from Sam.
    Season 3: Sam hides YED’s words and then Ruby’s words from Dean.
    Season 4: Sam hides drinking demon blood and Dean hides first remembering hell then torturing souls.
    Season 5: as the last season the brothers were supposed to grow up and be honest with each other.
    Season 6: Soulless Sam hides himself then his soullessness from Dean.
    Season 7: Dean hides killing Amy from Sam.
    Season 8: Sam hides his illness from Dean.
    It’s awfully repetitive. It’s like the writers are too lazy to think of new ideas.

    Comment by bahar — February 21, 2013 @ 5:56 am

  36. The writers are at fault. But so are the actors. They go right along with the crap handed to them.

    Sam’s lies/secrets have been excused all the time because he was “trying to help Dean”. And every single time he has f–ked Dean, himself and the entire world itself because of his “concern” for his brother. (The same ‘concern’ he showed by not looking for his brother at all at the end of last season).

    Hard-headed is one thing; being stupid is another. After all the mistakes that have been made by this stupid ‘reason’ of hiding things, it is way past time that Sam told the truth when the truth needed to be told.

    Too repetitive and irritating for any fan of the show.

    The writers have no ideas and the actors no longer care enough to fight for their characters.

    Comment by SL — February 21, 2013 @ 6:15 am

  37. Carver Or Ben E. gave an interview a few months ago saying the brother will also lie to each other because it’s a legacy from their father. Sorry to be vague on the details. This one detail stuck out at me. I remember thinking that it was very depressing news.

    Sam keeping things from Dean and Dean keeping things from Sam is very old. How is it a shock? It’s a cliche now. Not even worth the outrage anymore.

    And come on, some Dean fans will condemn Sam while overlooking Dean’s faults and some Sam fans will condemn Dean while overlooking Sam’s faults. It’s also a cliche now. Those fandon googles fit really tight sometimes.

    Comment by jace — February 21, 2013 @ 6:38 am

  38. @34 jose
    I wasn’t talking only about this episode. I haven’t even watched this episode and I’m not gonna.
    I was talking about the whole season in general. At least to me from the first episode dean was awfully out of character too but because Sam’s OOC was way too obvious and I’m a dean fan I mostly complained about Sam (guilty!)
    It’s not like dean to put responsibility on Sam’s shoulders. From the first episode he was like how could you leave me? How could you be irresponsible to me? It’s not like dean to whine this much. And if we can’t leave this issue behind it’s because dean never left it behind, it’s still unsolved.
    It’s not like dean to put his own happiness ahead of Sam’s. he always wanted Sam to be with him but when he found out Sam was in love with a girl and would be happy with her (dean never knew about Amelia’s husband) it’s not like him to try to guilt trip Sam to stay with him (first 9 episodes) IMO he would let Sam choose his own path from the beginning not after that much fighting. (I’m saying this because dean pretty much blames himself for jess’s death, now that he finds out Sam’s fallen in love again, it’s not like him to do anything to keep him away from his love.)
    It’s not like him to abandon his friend in the time of need, especially someone he owns his life to.
    And talk about the damn text, the past carver dean would never ever do that, no matter how much we like to make excuses for it to seem right.
    Apart from that, like I said dean is a total a** to anyone but Sam: Kevin, Garth, Benny, Henry and most of the random guest stars. The only people he was nice to, were dear Charlie and that dude from 8.13 and the girl from 8.14)
    And I don’t like the gay references for dean at all. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against gay people, I have a few gay friends. But I don’t like dean to be gay. From the pilot dean was shown as a womanizer straight man, now after 8 years they’re going way out of their way to prove us otherwise. First he gets uncharacteristically excited when he thinks a man is hitting on him and then some hot chick is kissing him and he just stands there and doesn’t even kiss back. I know it’s highly unlikely that something happens between Dean and Cass but it’s like they’re slowly building something up. I’m actually dreading next Cass’s episode.
    For me they’re slowly crushing dean’s character along this season. To me he seems like a bad tempered puppet that Sam controls. I’m so angry. And don’t let me get started on Sam.

    Comment by bahar — February 21, 2013 @ 6:51 am

  39. @35 bahar
    I completely agree with you. You forgot Dean hide Benny from Sam on Season 8 too. It’s like a given now that one of them will keep secrets from the other. Lazy writers indeed.

    @36 SL
    I agree with you, but also remember that Dean has done the same thing to Sam. And Dean has done it not just because he did not want to hurt Sam, but because Dean did not think that Sam needed to know. So they are both very much at fault here. Both of them seem to be incapable of learning that this should be a BAD NO NO.

    @37 jace
    You hit this right on the head. They have been doing this to each other since the beginning and they both need to STOP IT. The problem here is that the fans of one brother will always excuse his favorite character of any wrong doing while sending the character they may not like as much straight to hell with a head full of bullet holes because they lied to their favorite character.

    It is kind of sad that we are getting a repeat of the same, but at the same time, after 8 years in the air…….. Maybe they should hire some new fresh writers? That could bring some new perspective in to it?

    Comment by Jose — February 21, 2013 @ 6:52 am

  40. @37
    i’m a dean fan but i always mention his faults when i see one.

    Comment by bahar — February 21, 2013 @ 6:56 am

  41. @39
    jose, you’re right. add “dean hides Benny” to the list. for me it was really odd. why would he do that? it didn’t make sense. was he ashamed that his friend was a vampire? like i said it’s not like dean. it’s OOC.( not that Sam proved him wrong or anything. but who knows, may be if he told sam about benny from the start, maybe sam wouldn’t have acted like he did.)

    Comment by bahar — February 21, 2013 @ 7:07 am

  42. So this was filler. That’s not necessarily a bad thing; there have been some really good ones. Unfortunately, sometimes they can stop the momentum of a season and that’s what this one did for me. It wasn’t a terrible episode by any means but it just didn’t have the finesse of the past few.

    First of all, I think the writing was a bit clunky. The boys’ trust issues were rehashed unnecessarily for the millionth time. Or so I thought. Then I realized that it was all a set for the last few moments to justify-in a literary sense–Sam deciding to hide his health issues from Dean. If Dean thinks that Sam is not healthy then he won’t trust Sam to complete the trials and we are back to Dean and his suicide mission. Contrived conflict anyone? And not really subtle. It also ties in with the first half of the season which broke again! the trust between them. Guys, most of your audience wants to see the brothers working together not rehashing things that should have been settled not only an episode ago but 3 seasons ago. Or that could just be me.

    I did think though that Sam’s comment about Dean not exactly mistrusting people but only trusting himself was worth some chewing on. Was it only Sam being defensive or is there some truth? The people he has cared about the most–Sam, Dad, Cas–have let him down; I don’t think he even fully trusts Benny not to fall off the wagon at some point. Plus, he wants Sam to be safe; it’s hardwired. And he feels the heavy responsiblity to save people in general. So that one made me go hmmm, is there a kernal there?

    Also, I saw the bad guy coming from his first scene. I don’t know why but I knew it was him and I was right.

    Production wise, the editor dropped the ball a couple of times. I don’t ususally comment on that stuff but it was pretty obvious that Jensen’s stunt double got some serious air time. Thankfully Jared’s was able to cover his face just in time.

    But there was some good as well. The guest stars were good in their roles. The three stooges banter gives the guys another thing along with movie snack foods and Chuck Norris to bicker about. the scene when they met the dog lady was just as cute the second time around. And I just always like watching Jensen and Jared on my TV. Supernatural–not Shakespeare but it is a nice distraction in a hetic life.

    Comment by jace — February 21, 2013 @ 7:08 am

  43. 38-delurking again to answer. Bahar, to me it was obvious Dean was interested in Ellie, it’s just that he was right in the middle of looking for the hellhound. Was he just supposed to drop everything?

    Comment by roxi — February 21, 2013 @ 7:19 am

  44. Also, I don’t think he was’excited’ to be hit on by a man. I thought the moment was shown to be awkward for him.
    The gang at AE its trying to make the same case that you are, but to me, it’s just a case of some people seeing what they want to see instead of what’s actually there.
    Ok sorry, back to lurk mode.

    Comment by roxi — February 21, 2013 @ 7:30 am

  45. @43
    roxi, stop lurking and join the discussion!
    Even after Sam killed the HH they didn’t mention anything. Like I said I, too, like to see dean fall in love with a hunter lady, but I guess I’ve read a lot of posts on other websites declaring people would love to see something between dean and Cas. And if there are a lot of positive receptions maybe the writers would actually try something, especially now that they’ve written Sam and Dean clearly out of character from the first episode of the season. I know it’s really unlikely but I don’t even like to think about it. That would be the last straw for me.

    Comment by bahar — February 21, 2013 @ 7:46 am

  46. @41 bahar
    I agree, I never did understand that myself. Maybe it would have been better if Dean had told Sam about Benny right away. That’s a very good point.

    @38 bahar
    I want to thank you very much for this comment. This is a really good view on how you see Dean’s character changing. And it is very insightful. You make some many great points on how Dean seems to have gone way off character.

    And I agree about the Cas/Dean thing. I also do not have anything about anyone being guy, but to me having a Dean/Cas thing would just be wrong on so many levels. (Again, this is just my view, please no hate comments it was not intended to hurt or anger anyone).

    The thing with Ellie, I may see a little different. He did say that he was interested in being with her and even asked for a rain check. I am thinking that trying to kill the hell hound might have been just too much of a priority for him at the time.

    Comment by Jose — February 21, 2013 @ 7:51 am

  47. I mean carver said he decided to start the story with Sam abandoning dean just to have something new. Who knows what other things he’s willing to try to gain more audience for the show? And it’s obvious he doesn’t give a crap about dean fans…

    Comment by bahar — February 21, 2013 @ 7:52 am

  48. Typo:
    “being gay” sorry!!!

    Comment by Jose — February 21, 2013 @ 7:53 am

  49. @46 jose
    “The thing with Ellie, I may see a little different. He did say that he was interested in being with her and even asked for a rain check. I am thinking that trying to kill the hell hound might have been just too much of a priority for him at the time.”
    I’m right there with you. I’m just saying when there’s a lot of attention about something, the writers will notice it too. Till this season the writers never acknowledged it. But now it’s like they’re throwing bones for shippers. I’m just saying that it was intentional and they did it on purpose to please Destiell fans. Again I don’t have anything against Destiell shippers; they are a part of viewers just like us. As much as I have a right to want something they have a right too. I’m just saying these writers know how to shut fans up. We haven’t seen cas for weeks and now we have desteill fans talking on and on about how dean is gay or bi instead of complaining about cas’s absent. I’ve even read several articles about how the last few episodes affect dean’s sexual preferences. I’m just saying these writers work dirty!

    Comment by bahar — February 21, 2013 @ 8:43 am

  50. @49 bahar
    I could not agree more with you! Nicely said.

    Comment by Jose — February 21, 2013 @ 8:56 am

  51. @49 bahar – what a wonderfully polite and reasonable post! Er. Since I’m the only destiel shipper regularly on the forum (that I can tell)- I’m wondering where you guys are reading most destiel shippers?

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 21, 2013 @ 9:23 am

  52. @ 43+44 roxie I agree with you totally besides they have been playing these mistaken for gay jokes since season 1 its nothing new. It is funny to watch Dean squirm though. Obviously uncomfortable but does not want to insult the guy pretending to hit on him, I did not see it as excitement. clearly he liked ellie and I would not be surprised to see her move in to MoL HQ to hide from crowley at some point down the road.

    Comment by AW — February 21, 2013 @ 9:29 am

  53. For the record, SL, if Dean had taken on the trials and lied to Sam about coughing up blood, I wouldn’t have been upset. I would have made the same assumption I did for Sam (i.e., that Dean didn’t want Sam to unnecessarily worry about him).

    I agree w/Jose that the boys always lie to each other about stuff, and have been doing so since S1. For me, it really all depends on the story. I don’t find Sam’s deception in this instance objectionable given the circumstances. I completely understand why he would lie (or why Dean would have lied if he were in Sam’s position). It just wasn’t a big deal to me. At least this time, IMO, the deception is “in character” and feels genuine, not just angst for the sake of angst.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 21, 2013 @ 10:14 am

  54. I believe Dean hid Benny from Sam in the begining because Sam was acting so strange and OOC and since Dean had not seen him in a year he felt he couldn’t trust Sam to react like Sam and he was right as it turns out.

    Comment by AW — February 21, 2013 @ 10:31 am

  55. The main problem I have with Sam not telling Dean the truth about how he’s feeling is that he (Sam) had the nerve to question Dean about not trusting him and then he goes right ahead and lies to him about being ok, right after Dean has stated that Sam was right and that the only way to get through this is if they trust each other.

    The only thing I could think when Sam went off about how Dean only trusts himself was, “Well, gee Sam I wonder why.” And, when Sam had the nerve to say that it’s not that you don’t trust me but that you don’t trust anyone but yourself, again I thought, “Well, Sam, I wonder why.”

    You can’t get all pissy about someone not trusting, then turn around and do something that would lead to them not trusting you.

    Why is it that when Sam didn’t trust Dean about Benny that was ok, because Dean had kept Benny a secret? But, it won’t be ok for Dean to get upset and no longer trust Sam (and it will come to that. I pray I’m wrong but I don’t think so)after the truth comes out about the “illness”?

    Will it be because Sam’s intentions are admirable and genuine? I call phooey. Deception is deception and to do so so quickly after having had a tizzy over not being trusted, well that’s just plain ignorant or arrogant. But then again it’s Sam so it’s ok.

    Comment by Aislinn — February 21, 2013 @ 11:16 am

  56. I didn’t like the episode. It seemed forced and unnatural, with some shoddy writing. I’m fine with Dean joking around and all, but not when they make him out to seem stupid, because he’s so not! Of course he’d know what a familiar is… and a few other times too, he just seemed dumbed-down.

    As for the brothers’ interactions, I’m with Lisa1. The timing was odd, true, after the ‘trust’ speech, but I don’t think it was odd that Sam hid the coughing up blood. Very much in character for both the brothers, with the way they’ve been their whole lives, and what’s the choice here? No way Dean would let him continue then, I feel. Though I hope it doesn’t last long, I am tired of mistrust and hiding stuff between the two! Had enough of it in the first ten episodes. I NEED them to be good with and to each other now!

    Comment by Tammy — February 21, 2013 @ 12:09 pm

  57. Well, I, personally, didn’t think anything about Sam’s reaction to Benny was “in character” for Sam so, Aislinn, I can’t really say much about that. For me, Sam was very OOC for most of the first 11 episodes.

    Tammy, I know many are tired of the lies/deception, but I guess I would say I’m tired of the same reaction to it. Hear me out. Once Dean learns about Sam’s problems, why does he have to get angry and think it was a betrayal? Why not just recognize it for what it was? Sam not trying to worry you. That would be new and different.

    And, yes, I would say the same for Sam if the situation were reverse. I can understand why Sam would lie and not disclose what’s happening to him. It’s not for some nefarious purpose. I would love for Dean to find out and say, “Look, man, you didn’t have to hide this from me. I knew you were going to have problems” or something like that. Maybe if the brothers didn’t always react the same way to stuff, they wouldn’t fall into the same patterns.

    Anyway, that’s JMO.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 21, 2013 @ 12:37 pm

  58. @Lisa1 Yes! That would be perfect. That is literally the best constructive crisism I have seen on this discussion. There is absolutely no reason for them to fight every single time something is revealed.

    Comment by Laurel — February 21, 2013 @ 12:40 pm

  59. Aislinn (post #55): Excellent post. I agree completely.

    Comment by SL — February 21, 2013 @ 1:28 pm

  60. I enjoyed this episode, although not as much as previous ones, but still it was fun to watch.

    I think the reason that Sam won’t tell Dean about his coughing blood is because if he does, then Dean is going to insist that he does the remaining 2 trials and not Sam. Sam wants to not only to live after the 2 trials, but he wants Dean to live as well. Dean might even go so far as to contact Kevin and tell him to not tell Sam what the trials are, but to only tell Dean. Dean feels that whoever does the trials will die and he doesn’t want that to happen to Sam. Dean feels that that is his lot, to die a hunter. He wants Sam to live and have kids etc., and Dean feels that won’t happen if he does the remaining 2 trials. Maybe that is even part of the reason why he gave up his soul to save Sam because he thought, even then, that he would die a hunter and he didn’t want that of Sam. It will be interesting to watch what happens when Dean finds out that Sam is coughing blood, because he will find out.

    Comment by valerie — February 21, 2013 @ 2:02 pm

  61. I totally get why Sam is concealing his health. The Winchesters suck up things like PTSD and hell hallucinations and get on with stuff. They aren’t going to complain about a little blood.

    Come on now, don’t act like Dean doesn’t conceal stuff too, y’all, when we had Dean telling Sam he trusted him and was his Stone Number One and then going behind his back to kill Amy. These guys go back and forth with this stuff. It would be perfectly in character for Dean to do the same thing.

    Right now, Sam does think he’s good to go and him not being able to do the trials is not acceptable after his, “Come with me if you want to live” speech last week.

    Comment by inky — February 21, 2013 @ 2:56 pm

  62. Regarding the episode: just sub par as far as writing, pacing and characterization. Dean, the best hunter on the planet, doesn’t know about familiars. Really? The really awkward, clumsy dialogue between the brothers about the trials. Sam pretty much already knew everything that Dean reviewed for the audience. The tired retread of the trust issues between them. Again. After the great episodes that preceded it, this was a bit of a let down

    This episode was written by the same folks who wrote two of my least favorite episodes, Route 666 and Shut Up Dr Phil. This one wasn’t quite as bad as those in my book but still not one I will be rewatching.

    Comment by inky — February 21, 2013 @ 3:07 pm

  63. @bahar-this season and i am not sure why but the writers have wanted to be very controversial and to bring hint at controversial politically correct statements. especially with dean and this gay/bi thing. however i don’t think they will have dean go that way-they are just using dean as the sexual statement this year. i just saw a review where there is now a case that might be brought up against spn because of the beastiality (spelling?) and the woman being a black girl and being the white mans slave. I don’t know. why would tptb want to turn supernatual into a political correctness statement??? and why would j2 stand for it?? I hope this topic comes up at the las vegas convention in march. I want to know what j2 thinks. especially jensen since it is his character they are using to make thier statements with. it better stop because it is getting ugly out here with the fans. everyone is angry about something. not a good thing when you are looking to a new season next year.

    Comment by animal — February 21, 2013 @ 4:24 pm

  64. I’m so happy (doing the happy dance). Yes, this episode was crap, but core-based crap (with some funny and brother moments). I’ve had five episodes with the emphasis on the Winchester brothers and nary a mention of angels. The last episode was one of my top ten. I’m in SPN Heaven.

    Comment by RS — February 21, 2013 @ 6:47 pm

  65. Felt too much like a Charmed episode, with potions vanquishing witches and all.

    And what about the demons that give witches their powers, which was established back in season 3? All witches are evil because of that, but they seemed to skip over that fact. Or am I missing something?

    Comment by Jake — February 21, 2013 @ 8:07 pm

  66. @51 t1gerlilly
    This is the only forum I found that’s completely about Sam and Dean. And unlike a lot of people here, I like Cas too, But in a brotherly way for dean. Dean said it himself; cas is like a brother to him. But I understand and respect your opinion.
    @63 animal
    Exactly. They’re changing dean’s character to be able to move the story along like they want. One minute he’s a machine gun that doesn’t need anyone in the world the next minute he’s a crybaby that has abandonment issues and loves little Sammy.
    And I’m angry too because JA seems to be OK with it. Even in season 7 that dean was a sappy suicidal alcoholic I could stand it, but not now. They’re trashing his character like there’s no tomorrow. And I’m sorry because this is the way SPN is going to be till the end. Carver just doesn’t give a **** about dean and dean fans.

    Comment by bahar — February 21, 2013 @ 10:45 pm

  67. @bahar-I think it is all fans really-there aren’t too many fans that are 100% happy with the way any main character is written this year. sam fans are ticked off because of the seemingly ooc sam of the first part of the season-and dean fans are livid about the way his character is being written and portrayed with nothing to do but hold sams hands during the trials. I don’t even know for sure jensen is happy with it. the last interview i saw with him -i think zap2it-both j’s talked about this season-of course jensen didn’t have much to say about his character. when he talked about benny and the whole purgatory thing it sounded like he might have been disappointed that that didn’t go anywhere. but it did sound like benny was coming back. thats a plus to me. could care less about cas-i won’t be watching those episodes-just reading what people say about it. maybe watch it by download so i can fast forward thru things on thursadays or fridays.

    Comment by animal — February 22, 2013 @ 3:34 am

  68. People have a right to be upset and vocal about their feelings and that is what the boards are all about. But, sometimes what gets overlooked is that this has been a great year for SPN. It got its earliest renewal ever; it has a 10-15% uptick in viewers. It was saved from the purgatory Sera dumped it into on Friday to await cancellation and put back in prime weekday on Wednesday and its lead-in was the first successful new CW series in years. J2 are signed for 3 more years if the series lasts that long and we know it will go 9 for sure. Carver signed Collins for the Castiel fans even before J2 signed. The MOL intro has been almost universally received. J2 don’t seem to be seeking movie deals as in the past and are signed up for numerous conventions; they seem dedicated to the series and the fans. Somehow, I would argue J2′s work on and off screen and the fans dedication, have kept alive, into 8 seasons, a small TV series with only about 2 million regular viewers into an eighth year–and counting. That is phenomenal for commercial network television. I’m going to bitch and moan when my particular view is not being reflected in the series, but mostly I’m just pleased I have SPN to bitch and moan about.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 22, 2013 @ 7:27 am

  69. Again, wow. So much whining. Are there really so few on here that can talk about the show without thinking they’re BFF’s with the actors? The show’s not about Sam vs. Dean.

    What most people are describing as out of character is actually just the opposite. It’s overwhelming in character. Just in the wrong season. They’re basically repeating the themes from earlier seasons. The show is running into the same problem that almost every show that goes beyond it’s originally intended run comes into. The story was told. So what now? They could have tried for a fresh new angle in season 6 but they didn’t. They just tried to stretch out the end. Season 7 was just a continuation of that. Now we’re at season 8 and..it seems a lot like they’re just rehashing ideas from seasons 4 and 5. Angels have an ulterior motive that Cas isn’t aware of. Dean is back from a dark place. Sam is dealing with having Dean back. Dean is dealing with feeling like Sam can’t handle what’s coming. Sam is struggling to handle it internally. It’s like the story was reset back to season 4 because it was the beginning of the tightest storyline that the show has had and they’re trying to replicate it. They’re introducing little bits of new elements but they’re not sticking with any of them. It’s just not cohesive.

    Comment by mythos — February 22, 2013 @ 7:40 am

  70. @65 Jake
    The first part of your post had me laughing so hard I cried!

    @67 Animal
    I agree, as of right now, there are not too many fans (at least on this board! lol) that are 100% happy with the way the characters are being written.

    @68 CaseyT
    I am also glad that Supernatural is still here. I am not always pleased with what I see on the screen, bit I love the show and I am glad is still around.

    I am also being optimistic that the writers will pull it together and give us more of the show we love and also make sure they include everyone in a fair way so we can all feel that we can enjoy the show and not consent rate on the negative.

    Because for the first time in the 8 year run, I was very confused/disappointed at what happening at the beginning of the season. It has gotten way better now, and hopefully it can continue to do so.

    Comment by Jose — February 22, 2013 @ 8:17 am

  71. @70 typo
    (and not concentrate on the negative.)

    I don’t know what is wrong with me!!! Sorry….

    Comment by Jose — February 22, 2013 @ 8:19 am

  72. @mythos – I think they’re mostly invested in the characters, which only exist as the collective effort of a great group of artists. I actually find it fascinating how attached people get to a particular character. I wonder sometimes if its because they see themselves in the character – or who they wish they were. Or maybe the character reminds them of someone they know.
    But really, when you consider what people have been willing to do after reading religious texts – our flame wars seem pretty mild. I mean, no one is threatening to set themselves on fire. And the Bible didn’t even come in HD.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 22, 2013 @ 2:23 pm

  73. I finally got to see the episode tonight. I had to stream it from the CW since Dishnet is having a pricing war with FOX/CW. I enjoyed it but it was constantly lagging which took some of the enjoyment out of it. I was wondering when Dean had visions of their mom burning on the ceiling, did that mean he did see her as a child up on the ceiling like that? There has been a controversy whether or not he saw her dying throughout the years. It gave me chills if it is so.

    Comment by twinster — February 22, 2013 @ 7:51 pm

  74. @t1gerlilly(#72): But religious beliefs generally involve the concept of an eternal soul. Supernatural isn’t even offering ‘salvation’ to anyone. And some of it seems to go a bit beyond just preferring a character. I’ve seen some posts that if I were one of the characters on the show would seem like grounds for a restraining order. And a large percentage seem a bit over-the-top even if not quite past legal measure.

    @twinster(#73): The show established that only John saw her burning on the ceiling in the first episode. I saw it again recently. I don’t remember ever seeing anything that would indicate otherwise. It’s a relatively safe assumption that the image has been put into his head countless times over the course of his various encounters with demons, not to mention his stint in hell. How could they not use such an image against him?

    Comment by mythos — February 23, 2013 @ 6:41 am

  75. Got to address this notion that somehow Sam’s “lying” to Dean in not telling him how he is physically feeling. That really is a simplistic reduction of what is going on. First , they are brothers, not Gossip Girls. Sam’s not going to say, ” Dear watchful and supportive Dean, I haven’t been entirely truthful to you. Please forgive me. I am experiencing some doubt and pain and my tummy hurts. I’m coughing up blood and fear for my physical health. Please, help me through this emotional and physical crisis. Please Dean, let’s talk this through and come to a resolution.”
    IMO. Big brother defines himself as a hunter; big brother wants to do the trials. A huge part of his self identification is his macho; the trials are perfect for him to be who he is. He thinks he should be the natural choice for these tests. He resents that little brother has the tests and he doubts little brother would do as well as he would. He also doesn’t want little brother to get hurt.
    Little brother knows how big brother feels and big brother is watching closely. Little brother knows any sign of weakness will only confirm big brother’s opinions of little brother as less of a hunter than big brother and only fuel big brother’s resentment. Little brother is not about to show any sign of weakness. Little brother knows if he admits weakness, big brother would think, even if he did not say, “I told you so! Now, let the real hunter take over the task he should have been chosen for.” Little brother is not about to admit he is failing unless he falls flat on his face.
    Both guys have an ego. They have a competitive sibling relationship. They are stubborn as hell. They love each other, but they are still male figures in a sibling relationship. Just my take.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 23, 2013 @ 6:47 am

  76. Actually i always thought dean did see her -when he was in the hall. john came out of sams room and gave sam to dean- they were all on the same floor of the house. dean had been in the hall. i think he saw her and backed away.

    Comment by animal — February 23, 2013 @ 7:24 am

  77. @animal(#76) – Dean wasn’t in the room when it happened in the first episode. Sam may technically have seen it but would have been too young to have any memory of it. By the time Dean was there, the room was engulfed in flames. There was nothing in the scene either visually or based on character reactions, that would indicate Dean witnessed it. Though there wasn’t really an explanation for why Dean was standing outside of the room, he wasn’t in it, wasn’t shown seeing what had happened and didn’t react in a way that would indicate he had. If there was ever any indication that he had witnessed it later, it was a retcon since they didn’t seem to have it in mind when the show started. But I can’t recall it ever being indicated that he was there.

    Comment by mythos — February 23, 2013 @ 8:01 am

  78. @animal(#76) – Sam may technically have seen it but would have been too young to have any memory of it. By the time Dean was there, the room was engulfed in flames. There was nothing in the scene either visually or based on character reactions, that would indicate Dean witnessed it. Though there wasn’t really an explanation for why Dean was standing outside of the room, he wasn’t in it, wasn’t shown seeing what had happened and didn’t react in a way that would indicate he had. If there was ever any indication that he had witnessed it later, it was a retcon since they didn’t seem to have it in mind when the show started. But I can’t think of it ever being indicated that he had seen it.

    Comment by mythos — February 23, 2013 @ 8:03 am

  79. mythos-the bedrooms were all on the same floor. dean had kissed sammy good night and john put dean to bed. john was down stairs watching tv. mary heard sam cooing/crying -can’t remember which,-and went from her room to sams. dean was asleep in his room-same floor. when he heard mary or john-doesn’t matter-dean came out of his room-he is on the same floor as sam’s room-he had to have seen his mother on the ceiling. plus in the episode about the ghost in the water-he told the little boy he had seen something awful when he was younger. he saw mary.

    Comment by animal — February 23, 2013 @ 9:05 am

  80. CaseyT @75, As Sam stated Dean is the best hunter he knows, (“Better than me, better than dad.”) I don’t think this is a case of competing ego’s. Dean’s doubts about Sam are based on a history of lying and going behind his back, holding back information, temper tantrums that end with him running off and betrayal. More recently Sam has treated Dean badly beginning with not looking for him, not having any faith in his judgement, (But then he never has had any faith in Dean) going behind his back and running out on him again. Dean has every reason not to trust Sam, but as in the past once again Dean apologizes (something Sam is rarely gracious enough to do) and puts his faith in Sam who is holding back once again. Same old, same old.

    Comment by Haley 56 — February 23, 2013 @ 9:19 am

  81. Am I the only one wondering what happened to the heaven arc…I feel like I’v ebeen left hanging? I am not the greatest fan of naomi but I want to know what she is going to do about crowely getting into alfie’s head…and what the hell crowely is doing with his new foudn info….it has next week will be 6th week of my being on a hook. with thtat said, I will say that this was a great episode and next weeks looks god to.

    Comment by wtw — February 23, 2013 @ 12:05 pm

  82. @80 Haley
    This is part of your comment:
    (Dean’s doubts about Sam are based on a history of lying and going behind his back, holding back information)

    As we all know, Dean has done the same things to Sam. Dean has lied to Sam, kept things form him and even went behind his back in more than once. Dean has always acted in the same principle. If Dean does not think you need to know, he will not tell you, he will keep the information form you, he will lie to you and he will go behind your back to do what he feels he needs to do.

    I am not saying Dean is right, and I am not saying he is wrong, to each their own. But you can not call Sam on this (or either one of the brothers really)for doing something BOTH of them have a history of doing to each other.

    You can say that Dean had good reasons for doing it when he did it, but id does not take away that he did do it. BOTH of them need to stop lying and keeping things form each other.

    Dean has doubts about Sam because of what has happened before? Probably. But guess what!! Sam has the same doubts about Dean, because what Dean has done to Sam in the past.

    Again, this is something BOTH of them have done to each other. They both have issues. Sam is not without guilt here, and Neither is Dean.

    When you say Sam has never had any faith in Dean? I am very sorry YOU see it that way and that no matter what anyone says or what happens on the show your opinion might not change.

    But for a whole lot of other? that statement could not be further from the truth.

    Comment by Jose — February 23, 2013 @ 12:40 pm

  83. And don’t forget, Dean told Lucas in Season 1 that he saw something terrible happen to his mom which caused him not to speak for awhile also. I don’t think he was just making that up. 4 year olds can get underfoot just like a cat when you are not watching carefully. It is very likely that Dean saw his mom up on the ceiling, even if it was just for a second. He could have run out of the room without John not even knowing he saw anything.

    Comment by twinster — February 23, 2013 @ 5:18 pm

  84. By not revealing to Dean that he is not feeling well and is in physical pain and saying that he is good, Sam is lying to Dean.

    Simple. And, sadly, all too common for Sam.

    Comment by SL — February 23, 2013 @ 6:14 pm

  85. Jose @82, I’d be happy to debate this issue if you wish, compare facts and figures as it were.

    My primary reason for my posting was to emphasize my belief that this was not a matter of egos. For Dean it is very much a trust issue. For Sam I have no idea as there is a decided lack of rational for his behavior. It is as if the writers can not decide who he is or what motivates him.

    I understood him through season five. I saw him as a lost and lonely person who grew up rootless and isolated. While he had unconditional love from Dean he was being bullied by John into adopting a lifestyle he hated. His running away to college was rational. His leaving college to pursue revenge for Jessica was also rational. It was a way of life he had learned from John and in part from Dean.

    His decent into fear, confusion and rage over the next few seasons again made sense in light of the discoveries regarding the contamination of his blood and the manipulation of his entire life by demons. His desire for control over his life and superior power over the destructive forces he faced all makes perfect sense. The one issue I had was his lack of trust in Dean. As the only possessive constant in his life one would expect him to trust and confide in Dean however it could be that in seeing Dean as an extension of their father, seeing his fidelity to John as a weakness may have made him untrustworthy or at the very least unreliable in Sam’s eyes but that is a stretch as Sam himself said he always knew Dean was there to watch his back if needed and that was a comfort to him. I see this aspect of Sam as a flaw in the writer’s characterization.

    It appeared to me that by the end of season five that faith and trust issues between the brothers had been resolved. Though the distinct personalities of Sam and Dean would always cause conflict between them I didn’t see this one returning.

    Season 6 and the soulless Sam story line and seven and the crazy Sam may have been wonderful acting challenges for Jared but did little for Sam as a character. The one thing it should have done was to reinforce the bond of trust for Sam. Dean saw him through these ordeals, not always well and dealing with issues of his own but he always had Sam’s back.

    For this season Sam has suddenly reverted to an unpleasant mess of “I want what I want (close the gates of hell) then I’m going back to my life” of season 1 without the, compassion, warmth, and good humour he had in the first season. They have combined this with the ‘Dean’s a mess so I have to do it all and be crafty about it too.’ of season four without the motivation he had then that made his actions understandable.

    At this point I know longer understand Sam’s behavior and feel he is mistreating his brother.

    Jose if you find my views too bias, or upsetting to you and have no desire to discuss this with me I will take no offense and end the conversation with this post hoping we can respectfully agree to disagree.

    Comment by Haley 56 — February 23, 2013 @ 6:45 pm

  86. The bottom line in this argument about sam and dean and lies-is -We have seen this for 7 and now 8 seasons already. Its always been sam with the problem. sam having to lie for whatever reason he chooses. I would love to see a twist here for a change. like maybe elle calling dean and saying she thinks a hellhound is on her trail. at the same time sam gets a call from kevin saying he found out what the second trial is. so the brothers go thier separate ways. Dean ends up killing the hell hound and he has the spell in his hand. the screen fades to him and elle kissing by the impala-i love her for him -as the audience-we don’t know whether dean did the spell or not. dean goes to sam and they discuss the second trial. both brothers go to the second trial together. this time dean passes the second trial-and yes he did say the spell. and the trials go easier for him because of the after effects of having benny ride him out of purgatory. and since dean wins the second trial-sam is released from his sicknesses. i know-it ain’t going to happen-its just that it is so repetitive -and to bring the benny thing in would make the first 10 episodes mean something.

    Comment by animal — February 23, 2013 @ 6:46 pm

  87. @84 SL
    I am not saying that Sam is not lying to Dean. He is. What I am saying is that Dean also lies to Sam. This is a vicious cycle that neither brother seems to be able to break.

    Yes, Sam lied to Dean by not telling him that he is not feeling well. But he learned to do that from Dean. And we all know Dean always does the same to Dean.

    This is just as simple, just as sad AND just as common for Dean.

    It is not ok for Sam to do it. AND it is not ok for Dean to do it. If anyone wants to go down on Sam for doing this, they also need to go down on Dean for doing it too.

    Actually, comments should be made to the fact that they BOTH do it. If Dean had done it to Sam, it would have been just as bad.

    That seems to be the problem here when one brother is liked more than the other. Post are made to make it that the least liked brother is doing “this wrong” when it is plain and simple that BOTH the brothers are doing the same wrong to each other, and have been doing so since day one.

    I am not trying to defend Sam for lying. I have said that Both of them should stop with the darn lying. I am just trying to understand why this is just this ABSOLUTELY HUGE DEAL since both of them have been lying to each other forever.

    They BOTH do it, the are BOTH wrong for doing it. No excuses should be made for either of them. And no finger pointing to either of them as well since BOTH have done it, are doing it and will do it. Again they do the same thing to each other.

    Why are some so stuck on just ONE of them when BOTH do it. I know it is not fun when your favorite character is being lied to, but when your favorite character lies his a** off on a regular basis, well no finger pointing.

    What is good/bad for one, should be good/bad for the other. That’s just the point I am trying to make. BOTH brothers have their issues, they BOTH need to to work on them.

    Look, I like both brothers. I really do, but I also do have more of an incline to Sam. Just a little. Have I ever liked it when he has done something wrong, or lied to Dean. ABSOLUTELY NOT. There is no excuse for the way the writers have handled some things when it comes to Sam. But I also have not LIKED it when Dean has lied to Same and done some really bad things to him too.

    That does not mean I just HATE Dean and always find a way to always make him look bad. I don’t do the same thing with Sam either. That seems to be the thing I just can not understand about some of the comments made here.

    How it is so easy for some fans to always put one character down because he is not their favorite. Some of Sam and Dean fans make some really good arguments as to why they are not happy about the way they character is being handled.

    And they complain about the things they think are wrong. They also have an absolute right to do so. Why I don’t understand is how come there is not room for being open minded. You can not like the fact that Sam has yet again chosen to keep something from Dean, but please, also be honest and acknowledge that Dean does the same thing to Sam and is just as guilty.

    All of these comments about Sam yet again lying to Dean. We all know that Dean does the same thing. Why can’t we just say; “here we go again, they are lying to each other, they just don’t seem to learn from their mistakes” as opposed to; “here comes Sammy the lying one again” They both do it. I just don’t get it.

    Why single one, when they BOTH do it. Some of you will come back and start an argument about Dean being justified because of something, something, something….

    I am not saying that either of them is justified or not when it comes to the lying. I am saying that BOTH of them do it and I (because, yes this is just my opinion) don’t think that this should be an argument about one brother being wright or wrong when BOTH are guilty of the same offense.

    Comment by Jose — February 23, 2013 @ 6:55 pm

  88. @87 Correction:

    Yes, Sam lied to Dean by not telling him that he is not feeling well. But he learned to do that from Dean. And we all know Dean always does the same to Sam.

    Comment by Jose — February 23, 2013 @ 6:58 pm

  89. Jose: No, I do not know that Dean always lies to Sam. Not at all.

    What I am saying is that Sam has lied/hidden things from Dean so many damn times and it has ALWAYS ended bad. You would think he would have learned by now. Especially after Dean just told him he believes in him and trusts him and is by his side all the way. Perfect opportunity for Sam to step up and tell the truth. But nope, he lies. Again.

    Telling me that both boys do it does not change anything here for me. The fact is that Sam lied at the very moment he should be telling the truth. Once again he is hiding something vital from the one person in the world that he can rely on.

    Two wrongs do not make a right. It is about time Sam grew up and acted like a trust-worthy man and was completely truthful with Dean.

    It is not favoritism; it is logic. Something Sam hasn’t shown much of this entire season.

    Comment by SL — February 23, 2013 @ 8:23 pm

  90. @56 Haley
    Hi, thank you for the opportunity to discuss this. I see your point up until Season 8. Now on this Season, I will say that for the first 10 or so episodes, I had no darn clue what the heck was going on. The writing was making no sense.

    It is kind of going back in time, having them have the same issues we thought had been resolved. But at the same time it feels different too. We can all have some bias opinions. we are all human. My point here is that, I can acknowledge that you feel Sam in treating Dean bad. A lot of people feel that way, And I can understand why. It kills me that we never got to know why in God’s green earth Sam decided not to look for Dean.

    My comments may have been not as clear as I thought I was making them. I never wanted to say that I though egos had anything to do with this issue we are discussing. I just simply wanted to express my inability to fully grasp why we are concentrating so strongly on the fact that Sam lied to Dean.

    Instead of concentrating on the reasons behind it. Like I posted before, I think they are both wrong for doing it. I now that there will always be some reasoning behind the lie, and that some will agree and some will disagree with the reasons. The point is that both of them do it. and it is just very strange that we seem to be getting stock on blaming one brother or the other for lying.

    Just like you stated, I was hoping we had come to a close with this trust issues a few seasons ago, but then again the writers feel like going and reusing/rehashing the same things over and over.
    (i hope this made sense, I am dean on my chair typing this)

    @89 SL
    Hi, I just wanted to comment on your response. You don’t know that Dean has lied to Sam? Have you not seen the episode where Dean hid from Sam that his father told him to kill him if he could not save him? Sam asked him point blank, did he say anything to you and Dean looked him in the eye and said NO. What about the ones when he was hurt, and told Sam that he was ok? When he said he did not remember hell? When he kept Benny a secret? When he did not tell him what Death said to him regarding his own brother?

    We can go on for a while here. I don’t understand why you don’t count those times as Dean lying to Sam.

    When Dean hid or lied to Sam about those things, did it not end badly? He also had the opportunity to come clean, and trust on his brother, yet he chose not to.

    Dean has lied when he should have told the truth. And some of those were very vital.

    I agree with you, two wrongs will never make a right. And Yes!!!! Sam should grow up and act like a trust-worthy man and be completely truthful with Dean. That would be fantastic!!!!

    But Dean also needs to do the same. In all honesty, I don’t see how you could deny that. I am saying that both brothers need to do the same thing you want Sam to do. I am not playing favoritism, they Both need to do this.

    But I honestly don’t see how come you only think Sam should? I can admit Sam (who I like) needs to do so, and also Dean (whom I like as well) needs to do it too.

    How come you don’t think so? Isn’t that favoritism?

    Comment by Jose — February 23, 2013 @ 9:33 pm

  91. @90
    Should say: I am dead tired in my chair typing this.

    Comment by Jose — February 23, 2013 @ 9:34 pm

  92. @animal(#79) – We don’t know when Dean came out of his room. It was off camera. A child witnessing such a thing would either not just stand there or would have frozen and had been unable to take Sam outside. Remember, this was pre-hunter days. Dean was still just a typical kid at the time. From the time Dean comes into the scene, the room is ablaze. At that point, it wouldn’t have been possible to see her. Any reference to seeing something bad when he was young can easily be explained by the fact that he saw his house burn down with his mother in it. Or it could even be a reference to many things he saw after that. There’s no real indication that he actually witnessed his mother on the ceiling and the flames starting. I can see why people may think he had but there’s no real supporting data. And I’m sure this was intentional. The more vague they are with such specifics, the more questions it creates around the characters. Such questions create hype. Hype is good for the show. Of course, this was all back when they had a plan.

    @twinster(#83) – As I said above, seeing your mother die in a house fire is still a horrible thing. No demons need to be involved for a child to be traumatized by such an event. It’s been established that some time passed between the fire and John learning about demons in the episode where they go back to their house and the psychic tells them what happened. This would have been the time during which Dean wasn’t speaking, assuming he was telling the truth. So again, no indication he actually saw Mary on the ceiling.

    I’m not saying that Dean definitely didn’t see it, just that unless I’m forgetting something that happened in a later episode, it has never actually been established that he witnessed it. Assumptions don’t actually qualify as proof.

    As for the recurring Sam vs Dean debates, they are brothers who grew up under really bad circumstances and were basically abused by their father after their mother burned up because of a demon. Now they may have forgiven their father after they grew up and realized what was really happening, but the damage was done. And they may have come to grips with what happened to their mother but the damage was done. Dean has lied to Sam from the beginning. Mostly to protect him. Dean has never thought Sam was strong enough to be a hunter. He has always felt the need to protect him, never as an equal. Sam did learn how to lie from his big brother during his formative years and of course that left a lasting effect. They do lie to each other. Constantly. Dean feels that the ends justify the means. Anyone who says it’s out of character just hasn’t seen the show enough. Anyone who says it’s one-sided just hasn’t seen the show enough. Sam feels guilty about not trying to get Dean back this time and doesn’t want Dean sacrificing himself for him. Dean doesn’t see an exit strategy and wants to save Sam so that it all means something to him in the end. They both have their own selfish reasons for wanting to do the trials. This time it’s not even as big of a deal. In season 5 they were trying to save ‘all of creation’. This season they’re just trying to close hell. World will keep spinning either way. And we know they don’t succeed because the show has been renewed but the stories would have already been spun for this season (though with the writing these days, I wouldn’t be surprised if they stretched the story line out until next season since they can’t seem to come up with anything consistent enough to build a whole season out of it).

    Comment by mythos — February 24, 2013 @ 5:29 am

  93. Jose (#90): You are not getting the point. I am Not saying that Dean has lied/hidden things from Sam (although your examples are poor indeed).

    2 wrongs do not make a right.

    After everything Dean and Sam have gone through over 8 seasons the very last thing Sam should be doing here is lying/hiding something as important as his health from Dean.

    Telling me that over the seasons lies have been exchanged and truths have been hidden by both boys has nothing to do with this scene.

    You learn from your mistakes. After all the trusts issues there has been with Sam when Dean tells him he trusts him and believes in him and supports him- in this very scene- what does Sam do? He lies.

    So your claims that Dean has lied in the past means nothing to me in relation to this scene. Sam was wrong….again. Same crap over and over and over.

    Comment by SL — February 24, 2013 @ 9:44 am

  94. Mythos and Jose are absolutely correct! Both brothers have lied to each other on numerous occasions, so this idea that only Sam is guilty of lying is a joke!

    Jose listed some of examples where Dean has lied to Sam, but here are a few others: lied about his demon deal, lied about Sam’s time while soulless, lied about the Wall, lied about Amy and trusting Sam’s judgment, never told Sam what Ruby told him re: Sam saving Dean. And the first two I mention are things Dean was willing to take to the grave.

    And if we’re including feelings in the equation, then Dean ALWAYS lies to Sam. He lied about his feelings re: Sam’s psychic powers in S1 and S2, he lied about his feelings re: John’s death, he lied about his feelings re: the demon deal, he lied about his feelings: Hell, he lied to Sam in the beginning of S5 about how he was feeling. He lies in general about how he physically feels. Dean is always “good” – physically and emotionally – when we (and Sam) know that’s not the case. Dean doesn’t immediately disclose his every thought and feeling to Sam. And that’s NORMAL, IMO.

    Yes, the brothers are partners, but they are entitled to privacy. As long as it doesn’t impact their hunting together, then I don’t think either owes the other 100% honesty about their every single thought/feeling.

    Neither brother has ever lied to the other, in MY opinion, w/a malicious or evil intent. Sam didn’t tell Dean about his psychic visions b/c he was scared of them himself and he was scared that Dean would view him as a freak. We all know Sam sees himself as a freak. Sam didn’t immediately tell Dean about the hallucinations b/c he overheard Dean talking about needing a break, and he didn’t want to burden Dean. Even in S4, Sam had good intentions for what he was doing. It was wrong, but his motives were good. He lied to Dean about his powers b/c he knew what he was doing was wrong and that Dean wouldn’t approve. Sam does want his brother’s approval. To me, S4 is the WORST of Sam’s lies. That is the season where they are the most “bad” and “wrong.” I just can’t get worked up over the other times, including this new one.

    Both brothers lie. Both brothers are usually doing so to not worry the other. I can’t be angry w/either of them for that. I’m sorry but I’m just not going to get upset b/c Sam doesn’t immediately tell Dean about the trickle of blood he coughed up!

    Both brothers are FULLY AWARE of the consequences for the person doing the trials. Kevin said it would be brutal on the body. Sam knows this. Dean knows this. Why in the world would Sam needlessly worry his brother at the FIRST SIGN of trouble? That’s what I want to know from those who are so upset he didn’t say anything. I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t have said anything either.

    Why would Sam turn around and say, “Oh no, Dean. I coughed up some blood. I’m scared. What are we going to do?” LOL! The people ragging on Sam for not saying something are the undoubtedly the same people who would LIKELY trash Sam for bothering Dean if he had said something. I can just imagine the comments: “Sam knew the trials came at cost. He’s so weak and pathetic. He can’t handle anything and has to run to Dean to rescue him. The pain just started, and he’s already complaining. Sam sucks.” Hahaha!

    Why would Sam say something now? That’s my question. It just started. Isn’t it possible Sam wants to wait to see how bad it gets BEFORE he tells Dean about it? It’s supposed to get a lot worse. I’m sure Sam is planning to ride it out as long as he can – on his own – before he has to include Dean. This was somewhat mentioned in the S2 finale, but I honestly think Sam sees himself as a huge burden on Dean, a problem that Dean always has to fix. For that reason, it makes perfect sense to me that Sam would wait it out until he absolutely needs Dean’s help. Sam took on the trials for a reason. He told Dean he could handle it. For him to turn around and cry at the first sign of trouble would show he can’t handle it. Dean would then want to gank his own hellhound and take over. Sam doesn’t want that b/c he’s worried that Dean won’t work to survive the trials.

    I should hope Sam is smart enough to know if he can barely stand or function then Dean needs to know b/c he can’t back up Dean in that state. However, Dean has eyes. He’s w/his brother 24/7. I’m pretty sure he’ll also notice if Sam can’t function.

    Anyway, I’m fine w/Sam keeping this to himself for now. There’s really nothing Dean can do to help him anyway! If it gets progressively worse and he still tries to back up Dean in hunts, then you’ll hear me complain. Until then, I’m fine w/the way it’s playing out.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 24, 2013 @ 9:49 am

  95. if you notice lisa and jose-all the things you listed for why dean lied were because his lies had a DIRECT effect on sam. john telling dean to kill sam, dean killing amy not telling sam-because sam just tried to kill dean with a gun because sam was mental dean didn’t know what that would do to sam-dean even said he would have told him once he new sam was stable. -dean’s demon deal-because his deal was to SAVE sam. i could go on-all of deans lies had to do with SAM directly. on the other hand sams lies are lies that deal strictly with SAM himself. demon blood, psycic powers, now this blood. Do you see the differance??? Sams is purely selfish -nontrusting of his brother. and not understanding who is brother is-especially now since dean has returned from purgatory. deans lies are strictly to save his brother emotionally, physically,ect… sams is pure self centeredness. But that is who sam is. he does not have an emotional tie to family like dean has-he said so in the episode when they went to heaven. Sam is for Sam. Dean is for family. that is how the brothers have always been written thru 8 seasons now. At least the writers have gotten that correct.

    Comment by animal — February 24, 2013 @ 10:34 am

  96. even this scene we are talking about-dean understands that they have gotten thru all the crap thru all these years because THEY HAD EACH OTHER-they stuck with eact other. FAMILY. He said so in this episode at the end. but what does sam do?? he turns around and lies and sticks with himself. sorry=-sam was/is wrong here. bit time. and it will cause friction yet again later.

    Comment by animal — February 24, 2013 @ 10:40 am

  97. Seems like a lot of pearl clutching for a little bit of blood. Did Dean tell Sam he was having hell flashbacks right away? No. He gutted it out. Which is what Sam will do until he can’t. He is not being selfish. He wants to do the trials so Dean won’t have to put himself at risk to kill another hell hound and go into the situation with the mindset that he is not coming out of it. Sam will say he is fine–and he probably thinks he is for now; what’s a little blood to a Winchester–until he isn’t.

    Comment by inky — February 24, 2013 @ 10:51 am

  98. Animal – so you think Sam is a self-centered jerk b/c he is legitimately scared about things happening to him? Is it wrong for Sam to worry about what his psychic visions mean? That makes him self-centered in your opinion?

    We will never agree. I don’t think there is anything wrong w/Sam being worried about having psychic visions, being fed demon blood, his dad telling his brother that they may have to kill him some day . . . and what all those things mean for Sam. It is HIS life. That is not self-centered, IMO. It’s a normal reaction to a bunch of crazy stuff!

    IMO, you are looking at Sam in the most negative light possible. You clearly don’t like the character even a little bit, which is fine. I just can’t even begin to understand your view of him so we’ll never agree. And before you accuse me of getting on Dean, if you look back, you’ll see that I had no problem w/any of the “secrets” Dean kept from Sam or lies he told. They all made sense given the circumstances. In fact, the only time I’ve had a problem w/either brother keeping secrets, it was in S4 with SAM.

    ————–

    Inky, great post! I couldn’t agree more w/you.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 24, 2013 @ 11:44 am

  99. Animal (#96): EXACTLY. Glad you got the point of my post.

    The Samfanatics always see any comment about Sam that isn’t worshipping as attacking him.

    In the final scene of this episode Dean tells Sam he trusts him and supports him and is with him all the way.
    Sam starts bleeding from the nose. He tells his brother he is good.

    A lie.

    What he should have done has confessed that he is experiencing something that he is not sure of and allowed Dean to try to help him.

    Since I have much more faith in Dean and Sam than the Samfantics do I know that Sam would never think “Oh no! Dean will take this trial away from me!” and I know that Dean would never say “Sam, you are no good! I will have to do this myself!”

    But since Sam has been written like an ass most of the season I guess I shouldn’t expect him to be written any differently in this instance.

    Being a non-fanatic I believe that if Sam said the earth was flat he would be wrong. But his fanatical worshippers would insist it was flat.
    Sad.

    Comment by SL — February 24, 2013 @ 11:47 am

  100. CaseyT @75 – Agree with you wholeheartedly. This is about brotherly ego more than anything else. Especially given the set up between the brothers early in the episode when Sam reacted to Dean inferring he may not be up to it (the two other trials) and Sam defiantly saying, “I’ll be ready”. Not easy to then admit he’s struggling physically. I thought it was entirely understandable. He’s trying to reassure Dean that it’s all good, the little bro can handle it. BTW, did anyone else notice Jared did seem to have an actual cold or something? I noticed immediately his voice sounded thick or something at the start of the ep.
    And has there ever been an explanation as to why Sam left Amelia that morning to go to the hut where Dean found him? I so wish the writers would correct that early OOC of Sam just giving up on looking for Dean and reveal an interesting twist there.

    Comment by Albit — February 24, 2013 @ 12:53 pm

  101. What fanatical worshippers are you referring to, SL? I think the posters on this subject have made pretty good cases for their opinions. A little common sense instead of seeing Sam in the worst light possible is not fanaticism. Any positive or thoughtful post about Sam seems to bring out the same tired label of fanatic and the same tired condescending posts of how only certain people know the right way to interpret the writing and everyone else is a fanatic. That’s the sad part to me.

    You don’t think Dean would try to take on the trials to protect Sam? I think that he absolutely might. He would have shot Sam in the leg to keep him from it according to Dean himself. You don’t think Sam is protecting Dean, albeit misguidedly, by leaving out the blood part? (And how soap opera was that writing by the way in cutting to Sam’s coughing up blood right after Dean’s speech.) I do. I don’t automatically assign a selfish motive to Sam and I don’t think it speaks ill of Dean to say he would protect his brother. Believe whatever you want about Sam and Dean. I will too.

    Comment by inky — February 24, 2013 @ 12:54 pm

  102. @lisa-i am not nor have i ever been a sam hater-but i do accept sam for who he is and how he is written/portrayed. i am pro-bro always have been-always will be. Sam is written as a person who has NO SENSE of FAMILY. Its been a struggle for him to understand dean because of that. you and inky seem to think sam is protecting dean by doing the trials and sucking it up with the blood. that is not what is going on here. sam is doing the trials to prove to himself that he is capable of doing it. sam wasn’t expecting to do the trials but because of the way things fell-he has been chosen to do it so to speak-now he has focused on himself and what he- himself needs to do to get the job done. its going to bite him in the arse yet again per jared. dean will have to once again for the 8th season in a row do what it takes to get his brother thru the trials and tribulations that is/are coming. because that is what dean does. he gets his FAMILY-sam again, cas again, benny, bobby whoever-thru thier trials and tribulations the best he can. with self-sacrifice if he has to.

    sam is self sacrificing as well-but solely for himself not for others. that is what distinguishes the two brothers from each other. I didn’t write them that way-that is how they have been written by spn writers for 8 seasons. by the way self sacrificing is EGO- so i would say that both brothers have an ego-they just utilize that egotism differantly. if they didn’t the show would be boring.

    @98-where in my post did i say sam was wrong for worring about anything that has happened to him these past 8 seasons???? i said he was wrong in lying about it to dean. big differance there lisa.

    Comment by animal — February 24, 2013 @ 1:28 pm

  103. Albit,

    I think that when we see Sam leaving Amelia, it is right after they found out Don was alive. Sam left to give Amelia and Don a chance to work it out. He tells Dean “They was a girl and now there’s not.” I think he just didn’t have anyplace else to go so he went to Rufus’s cabin to figure out what to do next. According to Singer(?), Sam would go there occasionally.

    Yes, Jared did have a cold. I think a bunch of them were sick that week.

    Comment by inky — February 24, 2013 @ 1:31 pm

  104. Both brothers lie to each other, that is a given. What bothers me (and others) is that Sam practically shamed Dean in that last scene about trust and within the next breadth lies to Dean. How in the world will Dean learn to trust Sam once he finds out what is going on (and we all know he will eventually). Listing all the times Dean lied to Sam, Sam lied to Dean, really has no bearing on that last scene. Sam made Dean feel like an ass there, and then he hides an ailment from him. I’m just hoping (maybe, just maybe) that Sam doesn’t realize that he is I’ll, just feeling u der the weather, though bleeding groom the nose might be a clue he isn’t doing that well.

    I’m still under the impression that Dean saw his mother up on the ceiling, even if it was just for a second or just a glane. When he tells Lucas in “Dead in the Water” that he saw something terrible happen to his mom, he is meaning he saw his mother burn up, not that he saw his house go up in flames with his mom in it. But that is SPN for you, leave it vague for we fans to come to our own and often different conclusions!

    Comment by twinster — February 24, 2013 @ 1:35 pm

  105. @sl-i am not too sure that if sam said he was bleeding from the mouth that dean wouldn’t say “sam- i’ll do the trials-i want to do them”. i think that in itself would cause an argument. and frankly sam if he wasn’t the sam that we know should say “-go ahead dean do them” especially after that speech dean made to sam in trial in error on why he wants to do them. but sam being sam- wouldn’t say that because he needs to do the trials to prove to HIMSELF that he CAN do them. sam always seems to be trying to prove himself to dean and/or to himself. its who he is.

    Comment by animal — February 24, 2013 @ 1:40 pm

  106. Oops, should have read: That Sam doesn’t realize that he is ill (iPad kept self correcting). And of course under instead of u der.

    Comment by twinster — February 24, 2013 @ 1:41 pm

  107. And groom should be through. Oops.

    Comment by twinster — February 24, 2013 @ 1:43 pm

  108. Animal – you and I don’t have the same view of Sam at all. In fact, if I saw Sam as you did, I probably wouldn’t like the character as he would be a selfish jerk. But that’s just my opinion on your view of Sam.

    In YOUR opinion, they’ve written Sam as selfish and only willing to sacrifice for himself. That’s how you view. I do not view him that way, and I don’t think the show has portrayed him that way.

    Your perception is your own as is mine.

    I don’t see Sam as anymore selfish than anyone else on the show. I don’t think Sam took on the trials to prove he could do them either. I thought the dialogue was pretty clear on why Sam wanted to do them. He wanted to survive them and didn’t think Dean was going into them w/that same train of thought. Heck, Dean told Sam that he was doing the trials b/c whoever did them was going to die and he didn’t want that person to be Sam. Dean had a fatalistic attitude re: the trials from the beginning. Sam didn’t. Sam cares about whether Dean lives or not – first half OOC whackiness of Sam not looking for Dean aside.

    And as far as I know, ANYONE who took on the trials would have medical issues. That’s not exclusive to Sam so I’m not sure what Sam needing Dean’s help to complete the tasks has to do w/anything. If Dean had taken on the trials, he would have likely needed Sam’s help as well.

    Animal, you wrote:

    “deans lies are strictly to save his brother emotionally, physically,ect… sams is pure self centeredness. But that is who sam is.”

    And then you listed these as Sam’s lies: “demon blood, psycic powers, now this blood.”

    So, what are you saying other than Sam is selfish and self-centered for worrying (and therefore subsequently lying) about the crazy things that have happened to him? Sam did not disclose the visions or the demon blood b/c he was worried about what those things meant for himself, and about how Dean would view them. Those are legitimate, reasonable concerns to me. Dean was also worried when Sam confessed to him. It’s not like Dean was never concerned about the visions or the demon blood.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 24, 2013 @ 2:04 pm

  109. @lisa -I didn’t see demon blood sam as him being worried -i saw him as being self centered-thinking he could stop the apocolpse by himself if he could kill lillith. and in order for him to be able to do that he had to drink demon blood. which he was going to do whether dean wanted him to or not. he actually said something like that quite a few times that season. and when it came down to an actual plan with sam drinking blood to stop lucifer -and sam let dean in on it-dean was cool with it. the psycic powers-was he worried?? he more or less wanted to know what he had in common and what was going to happen to him and all the other “special children”. and he was going to find out whether dean wanted him to or not. thus the reason sam left dean in the hotel room and went to find out. look what that cost??? now this blood thing. same thing-sam is going to get really really sick. spoiler*****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************so sick that he is going to go on a hunt and not be able to fight because he is so delapitated. i don’t know at this point if dean is going to be with him during this particular fight or not but what do you think is going to be the consequence of this???? all of these are the same scenario- sam being concerned and only concerned about himself-not wanting any help -dealing with it on his own. not trusting dean to be there with him when dean would have been if sam was trustworthy and upfront with dean from the beginning.

    don’t get me wrong though. i know sam will always have deans back when needed. except the purgatory thing-still doesn’t make sense to me that sam would not have at least tried to look or find out what happened to dean. i think every fan in the spn fandom from dean fans to sam fans to cas fans to even benny fans know that is just not who sam is. it seems the writers wanted to leave no doubt that sam is self-centered -but i think the purgatory thing went to far-sam is not that self centered that he wouldn’t have looked. he loves dean-he just doesn’t know who dean really is. and that sam can trust family.

    Comment by animal — February 24, 2013 @ 2:38 pm

  110. I guess the question then is, if Sam already knows that Dean is concerned and there’s nothing he can do, then what does lying gain him? Dean’s still going to worry, so why not tell him the truth? Because Dean might get upset? He’s going to get upset anyway. So really, the lie gains nothing.

    I agree with twinster–no matter how many times Sam or Dean has lied before is not relevant. What is relevant is that Sam just shamed Dean for not trusting him, and Dean just admitted he was wrong and offered to support Sam. Lying to him immediately aferwards shows the double-standard Sam is applying–Dean needs to trust and believe in him, but Sam doesn’t have to do the same. He can demand trust, but he doesn’t have to give it, and can blame it on Dean by saying he was doing it because of him (he might try to take the trials/he didn’t want to worry Dean–both amount to putting the responsiblity on Dean for the lie)? That’s why it’s a problem. It’s not so much the lie itself as the circumstances around it.

    Comment by yeah — February 24, 2013 @ 2:39 pm

  111. wow those stars went all the way across the screen. how did that happen? and man my english teacher would be upset with my runon sentences. lol. sorry if they are hard to read. lol.

    Comment by animal — February 24, 2013 @ 2:46 pm

  112. Inky and Lisa1: If Sam said the world was flat you would both come up with some “truth” to what he said. That is fanaticism to the point of ridiculousness.

    In the last scene, Sam lied to his brother after accusing his brother of never trusting him.

    What a joke.

    Comment by SL — February 24, 2013 @ 3:07 pm

  113. Whatever, SL. You clearly have no real argument hence your need to personally criticize us.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 24, 2013 @ 5:18 pm

  114. By the way, I’m the same “Lisa1″ you said was a Sam fan who recognized his faults. I guess since we now disagree, I’m back to being a fanatic in your eyes.

    Hilarious! LOL!

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 24, 2013 @ 5:20 pm

  115. @114 Lisa1
    Hi, thanks for your earlier post. Glad you understood my thinking.

    @101 inky
    Thank you for your post. It was very nice.

    @93, @99, @112 SL
    SL, why are you being so insulting? I am a Sam-fanatic because I have a different view than yours? I actually said that I agreed with you and that he had in deed done the Wrong thing. The only thing I added was that you could also admit that Dean has done the same thing in the past.

    You proceed to call my examples poor and make lite of my views of the show?

    And you are calling me, Lisa1 and other names because we are trying to make a point just like you are?

    Well SL, feel free to continue your discussions, I no longer see the point in trying to have a discussion with someone that is this closed minded, and willing to start a name calling game because others don’t agree with you.

    You are accusing us of being fanatics, you should take a good look at yourself before you call others names.

    You probably won’t care, but other Dean fans here are able to voice their opinions with the rest of us. They are open to what others think without compromising their believes. And, they don’t play the name calling game.

    I much rather discuss with them. Since it seems you won’t mind at all. I guess we can agree is best to stop right here.

    I never did like arguing with brick walls.

    Comment by Jose — February 24, 2013 @ 6:33 pm

  116. @114 Lisa1
    Yes, Lisa. We are just fanatics because we happen to have free will and have a different opinion. Wow indeed. I guess I will just have to discuss the show only with the other posters that are willing to have an open discussion. Here I thought we could all discuss the show and if different opinions came up, we could just agree to disagree. Boy was I wrong.

    Comment by Jose — February 24, 2013 @ 6:37 pm

  117. @115
    Before I get blasted for the brick wall comment. That is not intended as an insult, but an expression. No chance one being able to move and immovable object.

    Comment by Jose — February 24, 2013 @ 6:54 pm

  118. My two cents–a fan can defend Dean without being an EDG, and a fan can defend Sam without being a ESG. Name-calling helps no discussions, and everyone should be allowed their opinions. Arguing the issues is always more interesting than arguing about posters. That is all.

    Comment by yeah — February 24, 2013 @ 8:25 pm

  119. Hey guys, delurking for a moment, my two cents, this episode sucked except for the blues eyes, mindreading the witch did to the boys. Otherwise, I thought it was racist, sexist, after the spiel about Dean being a genius they tried to make him look like a moron here. and again the boys were side characters. Other complaint? These ‘witches’ were not the same as Wiccans. Wicca is actually a religion, one that is Earth centered. Yeah they perform spells but not anything like the stuff shown here, it’s mostly practical magick and revering nature. So to say Dean was a Wiccan made no sense.
    Trust issues again? You know, it’s no secret I was disappointed that Dean didn’t get to do the trials but overall, I thought last week’s episode was pretty good and the boys were starting to get on the same page. I don’t actually have a problem with Sam not wanting to let Dean know he’s sick, because I can see where he’s coming from. He doesn’t want to worry Dean. I didn’t understand why Sam had to make the comment about Dean not trusting anybody but himself, but I can brush that off. Next week’s episode looks about as interesting as watching paint dry.
    But hey, I’m surprised nobody is commenting much on Jensen having a little girl! Jared has an adorable little boy and now Jensen is gonna have a beautiful little girl who I’m sure, will have him totally wrapped around her little finger. Well anyway, I thought it was interesting and happy news.

    Comment by roxi — February 24, 2013 @ 9:27 pm

  120. Jose: Have to say you are the one being the “brick wall” here. Every time I state the FACT that Sam lied in this scene you have to bring up that “Dean lies also.”

    What has that to do with the fact that Sam lied here?

    Since you can’t acknowledge that fact without attacking Dean there is no need to try to reason with you.

    No insult intended.

    Comment by SL — February 24, 2013 @ 9:56 pm

  121. To me it’s interesting that so many people have a negative interpretation of Sam not looking for Dean. I mean, when Sam was planning to go to Hell, he made Dean PROMISE not to try and get him back. Because he believed that was the right thing to do. Plus, when Dean went to Hell he spent months obsessing – all to no avail. So looking for Dean would have been wrong and pointless from his point of view. Yeah – it’s not what Dean would have done – but he’s not Dean.
    I wonder if we’ll ever get an episode where we can hear the internal monologue of the characters. I think that could be a lot of fun.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 25, 2013 @ 4:16 am

  122. To me, t1gerlilly, the difference is that Sam knew he was going to hell and didn’t think there was any way for Dean to save him. Therefore he made him promise so, in Sam’s mind, Dean wouldn’t grind himself into the ground or try to commit suicide by hunt. Then, despite everything, Dean did save Sam’s soul from hell and a year later found a way to save Sam’s sanity after the wall fell. So to me, Dean proved that Sam’s ‘impossible’ situations where he wanted Dean to give up weren’t impossible–Dean found a way to save him because he didn’t give up.

    Contrast that with Sam. I keep going back to Sam’s line in the opener–”I didn’t know if you were dead or eating tacos somewhere”, or something close to that. Sam didn’t know that Dean was gone, or that it was impossible to get to him or find out what happened to him. He never even tried to find out. Instead, he considered it pointless to obsess–even though Dean’s obsession saved Sam’s soul and sanity. That’s why to me Sam doesn’t get much slack. If show had even gone with, “I tried to find you, Dean. I tried everything I could, but there was nothing and in the end, I just broke down.” But I tried nothing and was all out of ideas? It does make it look like Dean is a lot more invested in their brotherhood than Sam is, because Sam didn’t know it was an ‘impossible’ situation and still wasn’t even willing to try. There’s personality difference, and there’s just plain indifference, and to me the latter is what Sam displayed. That is why I take a negative interpretation of Sam’s inaction.

    I think an internal monologue episode would be very interesting.

    Comment by yeah — February 25, 2013 @ 4:30 am

  123. For all of you guys that like this episode, listen up, this is bad, very bad.

    I had my skin crawl all thru this episode with the subtext of bestiality and “voluntary slavery” a black women wearing a dog collar, really. where is city is set in makes a hugh difference is that they were in East St. Louis. It is across the river from St. Louis, in Illinois and is it’s own city and is 95% African-American. I didn’t see a single black cop and the high and mighty witch club, never would happen there, no such building would exist. The city has rows and rows of delapidated and falling down or burn out houses, even the city government building look old and worn out. I grew up next door in Belleville, Ill.

    The city suffered from “white flight” 50 years ago and it is a sad city of black on black crime, gangs, bad schools, bars and bars with drug deals done openly on street corners and a highway was constructed years ago so you can go back and forth across the river without ever going into ESTL.

    As bad as all the things you mention the slavery subcontext but put the episode in this light, it’s even more insulting. The writers are extremely ignorant and there will be some serious reprecussion from this I’m afraid.

    I predict the backlash will be so severe, that there will be big statements of apologies. Years ago the British television, “The Professionals” had a story about an off shoot of the KKK and the episode was never shown again. The only way to see it is to have the boxset of the series. I also predict that this episode will never be seen on TNT.

    The writers lack of research is now not only annoying but now may have serious consquences and it is all so unnecessary.

    I would love to be wrong and the fact that the show is on the CW and does not have a huge audience it may fly under the radar but if it is shown on TNT the could be a whole new ball game and it will not be pretty.

    Comment by Lugilla Brown — February 25, 2013 @ 4:56 am

  124. Lugilla Brown–I winced too several times at the setting in East St. Louis and wondered why they shifted it from St. Louis, Mo to East St Louis, Ill. My only thought for an excuse was that across state lines would make it an FBI case giving Sam a reasonable case for an FBI investigation. Once setting it in East St. Louis however, someone should have known it is an African American city, although I have to say you have to be rather in the geography weeds or, like me and you, familiar with the area to even know that fact. I did wonder throughout why they shifted it to ESLouis and did they have any idea about the circumstances of that town.

    I do think the slavery,dog collar reference is a bit over the top. A white male was shown as being in the same situation, and the actress who played the role was the best thing in the episode and apparently she did not make all of those negative associations. And, I don’t think a non-white actor should be restricted from the role because of race. I agree, there was some thoughlessness in the script and in casting, but I don’t think it rises to the level you suggest. I do think Carver should be more sensitive to issues of race and gender in the future. He does seem more interested in infusing sex into SPN which I applaud, but that is going to reqire more attention to gender issues, and he is going to have to learn that whenever you mix race and gender you’d better be prepared for controversy. I don’t think an apology is absolutely necessary, but some acknowledgement of mistakes here would be a good move.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 25, 2013 @ 6:38 am

  125. I’m curious how many of the Sam vs. Dean people have brothers. It seems like a lot of them don’t get the idea at all. Guys aren’t women. Call it societal influence, genetics, stupidity, whatever. But we do work differently. We will lie about how we’re feeling if we don’t want them worrying about us. We will lie to protect them. We will prefer to take the bullet than let the other take it for us. While obviously Sam and Dean’s relationship is a lot darker because of the subject matter, being a guy and having a brother, I can easily see why they make the decisions they do (though the writing has sometimes gone astray and the new emphasis on drama is a bit unusual). What most seem to think is them turning against each other is really them protecting each other. Sam didn’t lie to Dean about how he felt despite coughing up blood because he wants to cease the glory for himself. He did it because he doesn’t want Dean to be the one to take the bullet.

    Comment by mythos — February 25, 2013 @ 8:05 am

  126. @120 SL

    “Every time I state the FACT that Sam lied in this scene you have to bring up that “Dean lies also.”

    “What has that to do with the fact that Sam lied here?”

    My bringing the fact that Dean also has lied, is simply a comment on my part that both brothers apparently lack the ability to learn from previous mistakes.

    The fact that Sam was wrong for doing it, that he should know better and that unfortunately he doesn’t does not take away the fact that Dean is the same way. Also that if the writers keep rehashing old bad habits, Dean will be lying to Sam in short time.

    “Since you can’t acknowledge that fact without attacking Dean there is no need to try to reason with you.”

    Here we go. Finally seem to hit where the problem is. SL, where/When did I attack Dean? I agreed with you that Sam lying to Dean was wrong. I agreed with you 100% and have stated that repeatedly. I was simply making an observation that Lying to each other is something the Brothers have done to each other, over and over again. How/Why is this attacking Dean?

    Me simply making an observation that Both brothers have a very bad habit of lying to each other should not be taken as an attack on Dean. Dean was the injured party here, I agreed with you and said as much. I just wanted to make the point that they both do it. And probably will do it some more.

    Why would you think I was attacking Dean? I understand that Dean lying to Sam before does not make Sam lying to Dean in this particular instance ok by any means. I was just trying to join the conversation and contribute something.

    Apparently, you misunderstood my comments as an attack on Dean? Is that why you refused to acknowledge Dean ever lying to Sam in the past? I am sorry that this was your understanding of my comments. I can assure you that was not the case. I am not a Dean hater by any means. And I am not a Sam fanatic by any means either.

    “No insult intended.”

    No worries, I am not insulted. Thank you for adding that anyway. I just was taken off when you stated I was attacking Dean. That could not have been farther from the truth. If you could point out where I did that on my previous posts? I might not have noticed I was attacking or being mean to Dean writing what I did? I would like to know how I did it so I can be more careful next time.

    I honestly did not see my contribution to the discussion as an Attack on Dean. I just could not understand your comments about your not remembering Dean lying and the examples I presented being poor.

    I still stand by my point. Both brothers have a nasty unhealthy addiction of lying to each other. They both need to stop doing it. It would alleviate some many problems.

    I am just so very sorry you see it as an attack on Dean.

    Comment by Jose — February 25, 2013 @ 8:16 am

  127. @mythos & CaseyT – I think you’re both right about how they’re acting. But it’s not just a brother’s thing. It’s a sibling thing. I thought there was too much talking for a real sibling fight. Like the fight in the car. If you ask me it should have gone
    Older sib: you’re sure you want to do this? You’re good to go?
    Younger: Of course I’m all right (defensive)
    Older: (shrugs)
    Younger: You just think I can’t do it. You don’t trust me
    Older:(calling bullshit face.)
    Younger: (angry now) It’s just because you can’t trust anyone…
    Older: (takes eyes off the road for the first time)You know exactly why I don’t trust you.
    Younger – (slumps back in seat looking bitter, but shuts the hell up).
    So the dialog there is crappy, but you get the idea – siblings have a shorthand, especially on issues that are serious and have come up more than once. At least with my sib, we can have an entire fight in like, four words, just based on facial expressions, shrugs, and knowing exactly what the other is thinking.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 25, 2013 @ 8:44 am

  128. Jose – I think it depends on the person’s perspective. Some see insults where none are intended.

    For instance, over on TWFB, Sam girls thought I was insulting Sam by saying he was jealous over Benny. They said I was painting Sam’s actions in a negative light and dumping on him, but I honestly wasn’t. For me, jealousy is a trait all humans possess and display at certain times. My comment was not meant to even criticize him for being jealous. I was just making an observation but was accused of trashing Sam. Sam being jealous of Dean’s feelings for Benny didn’t make Sam “bad” or “wrong” IMO, just human.

    Yes, “jealous” is not a word that is seen in a positive light, but I never intended to trash Sam when I said he was jealous.

    Here, it seems SL takes offense to saying Dean has lied. Maybe, SL sees it as an attack. Who knows? I agree w/you though. Saying Dean has lied isn’t a critique or attack on Dean IMO. It’s just stating the truth. Both brothers have lied to each other. It doesn’t make one better than the other. I don’t feel I was attacking Dean either but sometimes anything “negative” said about a character is seen as a critique or attack. Though I do think the content of both of our posts would show we weren’t attacking Dean or Sam.

    I only disagree w/you on one thing. I can’t say it was wrong for Sam to not tell Dean about the blood. I keep putting myself in Sam’s position, and I just can’t see myself saying anything at that moment either. It was a little blood. It’s supposed to get a lot worse. I would probably wait until it got worse before saying anything, but that’s just me. We all look at things differently, but for me, this isn’t that big of a deal. Sam gets a pass from me.

    Now, if Dean were to later say, “Sam, you keep demanding I trust you, but how can I when you aren’t honest w/me,” then he will be justified in saying that. You won’t find me trashing Dean for saying something to that effect. I can see both positions. I understand why Sam wouldn’t say anything right now. I mean not much as happened, IMO, that is worth talking about. But I can also understand why Dean will be upset, esp. in light of Sam’s “trust me” speeches.

    I also think that people don’t change as much as some think they do. People very often make the same mistakes or fall into the same patterns. I see that happening here. It just doesn’t irritate me like it apparently does for others.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 25, 2013 @ 9:16 am

  129. To me this episode was good and all the people trying to make it about race or slavery are the same people who continually force these issues where they do not belong the episode was not about race or slavery. It was about witches for crying out loud. Beastiality, really, Sam has been with a demon and a werewolf but now we have a problem because a witch is sleeping with another witch who sometimes is a dog. Again imposing thoughts that have no connection with what was really there. AND who cares who actually lives in this town or that last time I checked there was not any black cities or white cities. We are integrated or are you all posting from the freakin fifties.

    Comment by AW — February 25, 2013 @ 9:43 am

  130. I didn’t even really pick up on the whole slave thing right away. I thought it more along the lines of I Dream of Jeanie than a black/white thing.

    For those of you to young to know I Dream of Jeanie, it was a show about a white astronaut who ends up finding a genie bottle with a very pretty white genie inside. Jeanie called the astronaut master and was never portrayed as a slave to him. In fact they fell in love and I believe they married. While it’s true that genie was white, she still called him master as genie’s are compelled to do.

    I thought of the familiar more like the genie. I didn’t see her as a slave to him. Yes, compelled to follow his orders, but not a slave. The color of their skin never crossed my mind, guess I’m just colored blind that way. I will admit the whole sleeping together thing was gross, but then again she wasn’t the dog at the time, she was human. Still gross, but not as.

    Also, the actress who portrayed Portia must not have thought to much about either or she wouldn’t have played the part.

    About Sam and lying to Dean. In this instance he’s wrong. He shamed Dean for not trusting him then he turns around and does something that would ensure to break the trust. While it’s true that Dean has lied to Sam in the past, at this point that’s mute. Sam can’t understand why Dean doesn’t trust him? Well, gee Sam, go figure. You demand trust then turn right around and break it.

    Comment by Aislinn Rose — February 25, 2013 @ 9:44 am

  131. The part that seemed wrong to me was Sam saying he has tried so hard for so long to figure out why Dean doesn’t trust him. WTH doesn’t Sam watch the show or what. hahaha

    Comment by AW — February 25, 2013 @ 9:57 am

  132. The whole master thing seemed pretty obviously about the relationship between a dog and the dogs master, which is what a dogs owner is refered to as.

    Comment by AW — February 25, 2013 @ 9:59 am

  133. @128 Lisa1

    Hi Lisa, I think you are right. It is what it is. Now I have read your take on Sam not telling Dean about the blood. I see nothing wrong with your perspective on it. I can also see it the same way you do. I just kind of wish they would stop with keeping things form each other. Maybe I hoped Sam would have broken the cycle and told Dean.

    But I also know that it would not have made sense for Sam to have done it. It really has to be a scary thing when you cough up blood. I know I was shocked to see it, even when I knew it was coming.

    Now I am wondering how long it will be before Dean finds out. That should be a very entertaining conversation.

    Comment by Jose — February 25, 2013 @ 10:21 am

  134. You know, all of our arguments are pointless. This is the way the show is going to be. Sam fans can be happy and dean fans can either suck it up or give it up.

    Comment by bahar — February 25, 2013 @ 10:22 am

  135. #134 agreed.
    Dean is an idiot. Dean is a grunt. Dean is always wrong. Dean always has to apologize because he is always wrong.
    Sam is a genius. Sam is THE hero. Sam is always right. Sam can do no wrong.
    This is carver’s opinion of the brothers, whether we like it or not. Hey at least Sam fans like it, good for them, because I sure as hell don’t.

    Comment by jen — February 25, 2013 @ 10:40 am

  136. Jose: I guess what bothered me is that I stated that Sam’s lying/hiding crucial information from his brother in this very scene- when so much ist at stake and after all the harm that has come out of him doing the very sam thing many times before-and got a response of “Well, Dean lies too” irked me.

    Yep, Dean has hidden and lied before. Not denying that.

    But in this scene I believe by Sam doing the wrong thing he has done over and over again- especially after he had just accused Dean of not trusting him and right after Dean told him he did-was stupid and selfish behavior that is going to lead only to more hardship than it has to.

    It isn’t attacking either brother. It is basically just pointing out that the writers are inept and lazy and can’t mature the behavior of these characters no matter how much they age or how much experience they earn. Having them do the same stupid thing over and over again- basically NEVER learning from past mistakes- is an insult to the characters and the fans of the show.

    I believe that the character of Sam has been writtenly horribly this entire season and I am not happy to “just go along with it.” So when the character does something he shouldn’t it does anger me.

    Sure I can’t change the way the show is written but I don’t have to be happy with it. And I am not.

    Comment by SL — February 25, 2013 @ 12:10 pm

  137. And, look Sam’s little lie by omission is already being blamed on Dean.

    Sam learned who to lie like this from Dean (and John), but mostly from Dean.

    Sam’s keeping it to himself to protect Dean because he knows how Dean will react and he can’t have Dean trying to do the trials, no not after he said he could.

    Dean’s lied to Sam, so it makes it ok.

    I know this argument is getting old and tired, but c’mon, there is no good reason for Sam to keep this to himself. He demanded trust. He needs to learn that trust isn’t something you can demand, it’s something you earn. Yep, it’s being set up as once again it’s Dean’s fault; I can see it coming. I cry shame on Dean for allowing this, but shame on Sam for taking advantage.

    Comment by Aislinn — February 25, 2013 @ 12:49 pm

  138. Aislinn – who is saying Dean is at fault for anything? I’m sure not. I don’t recall anyone saying Dean was to blame for Sam’s choices. Last I checked, Sam is a grown man who makes his own decisions.

    Gosh . . . does EVERY SINGLE THING have to always come down to a “Sam v. Dean” argument? Everything! It’s beyond frustrating.

    What is the problem?

    Some of us understand why Sam kept it to himself and didn’t say anything. That doesn’t make us Sam fanatics who blame Dean for Sam lying and would argue w/someone who said the world was round. I already said I didn’t think it was a big deal that Sam didn’t say anything so why would I blame Dean for anything? I don’t think Sam did anything wrong AT THIS MOMENT in time. If he continues to deteriorate and still doesn’t say anything, then I will likely agree w/you guys. Now, mind you, some who understand why Sam didn’t say anything like Jose agree w/you guys that he is wrong for keeping quiet.

    Some of you think Sam not immediately disclosing the blood is wrong, esp. since he just accused Dean of not trusting him. That doesn’t mean you hate Sam.

    I actually understand the point you’re making; I just happen to disagree. I don’t think either brother is “wrong” at this moment in time. Sam will be “wrong,” IMO, when he continues to hide his medical/physical issues, esp. if he’s hunting w/his brother.

    That’s how I feel. What’s the problem? Why all the nastiness? We disagree. No big deal.

    Discussions here would move along more smoothly if people restricted their comments to the comments being made and not the poster.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 25, 2013 @ 1:49 pm

  139. Lisa1

    I didn’t say you said anything. But, I have seen comments were it has been said that Sam learned his lying behavior from Dean and that he’s keeping it to himself because he doesn’t know how Dean will react and is trying to protect him.

    To me this clearly shows that once again Sam isn’t to blame. He’s only doing what Dean taught him to and what he has to do to protect Dean.

    Sam is a grown man and makes his own decisions but he never seems to really be held accountable for them and to me that’s the meat of the problem. Sam demanded trust and here he is again keeping secrets.

    I could support his secret/lie if he hadn’t shamed Dean with not trusting him. If he hadn’t said he didn’t understand why. But, Sam did do those things and for him to keep this secret now, well…..

    Comment by Aislinn — February 25, 2013 @ 2:11 pm

  140. mythos, marvelous post in #114.

    You know the whole bringing the other brother’s fault in a discussion about one guy is done, I think, to dispute the conclusions about the character that are being made–not usually to excuse the behavior.

    In this particular case, Sam is being raked over the coals for lying to his brother about his physical condition–which he hasn’t actually done yet btw–the conclusion being drawn by some is that Sam is the most selfish, self centered, self righteous, despicable character in the history of TV or that he is so much an inferior character than Dean. (OK, a little hyperbole there but you get the idea) People who reject that opinion of Sam might bring up that hey, Dean has done that very same thing, does that also make him morally repugnant? It’s more of a defense of the guy’s character than his actions

    The same thing happens when it is Dean’s turn to be criticized. “Dean was a jerk for sending that text?” “Yeah, well, Sam left him on the floor so he’s no better.” It’s a fan thing.

    SL, I am neither a Sam fan or Dean fan only. I am a Winchester fan. Calling people names like “fanatic” is just being rudely dismissive of their opinions and frankly indicates the lack of a substantial argument. I like the brothers working together. I have spoken up for Dean plenty of times here and in other forums. Here lately though, most of the criticism on this forum is directed at Sam so I may be defending him more now. I call ‘em as I see ‘em and I don’t think the tiny bit of blood that Sam coughed up after he told Dean that he was good, warrants all the hand wringing …yet. He hasn’t even lied about it. He hasn’t done anything about it yet because the scene ended immediately after with him looking down with a “Oh Crap” expression.

    I would laugh a lot if next episode the brothers were already talking about it. But alas, I have seen certain spoilers…when it all does hit the fan, I will certainly understand if Dean is upset about it and I won’t think he is wrong either.

    Comment by inky — February 25, 2013 @ 2:18 pm

  141. Inky, over the seasons this site has had more than 50% Sam Fanatics. Where there are more rational discussions in some cases, still doesn’t take away from the fact that anytime anyone suggests that Sam did the least little thing wrong they are roasted over the coals as “Sam Haters.” That is the reaction of a fanatic- not a fan.

    I pointed out that IN THIS END SCENE I thought Sam was wrong to lie to his brother about his nose bleed. Instantly I was hit by posters telling me “well Dean lies too.”

    I didn’t say Dean hasn’t lied before. I pointed out that in THIS SCENE Sam hid his physical distress from his brother just after his brother told him he trusts him and supports him and believes in him.

    Just a couple of scenes after Sam attacked Dean for “not trusting me” he turns around and shows Dean why he shouldn’t.

    And the response I get from that comment: “Well, Dean lies too.”

    Now that is not a logical response to my comment. But it is the response of SOME people who can never take any critical comment about Sam without lashing out at Dean and/or the poster who dared to say it.

    Not everyone that doesn’t agree with my comment is like that; but more than enough are.

    Comment by SL — February 25, 2013 @ 3:06 pm

  142. Misha’s gonna be a series regular next year and direct an epi.
    Happy dance of joy! (Sorry, just couldn’t contain myself)
    This means J2 will have more time to spend with their little ones. And not work themselves to death. I hope Jensen will direct again too – I love the episode he’s directed.
    I know some of you are not Cas fans (though I really cannot fathom why). You’ll be happy to hear that Jim Michaels is looking for hazing suggestions – and I ‘m sure you’ll all have suggestions.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 25, 2013 @ 3:06 pm

  143. Oops episodes (plural) he’s directed

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 25, 2013 @ 3:07 pm

  144. I like Castiel but the only two “regulars” on this show should be Dean and Sam. Cas should be a supporting character. I watch this show for the Winchesters and, for me, over the last few seasons there has been way too much focus and air time on “guest stars” rather than on the main characters.

    A couple of episodes a season where Castiel plays a supporting role will be good enough for me. More than that and we get a wreck of a season like the last 2 ones.

    Comment by SL — February 25, 2013 @ 3:10 pm

  145. Aislinn, don’t you think Sam may feel stupid saying something to Dean when he just said he was doing okay and could handle the trials?

    I think Sam not wanting to be seen as weak and ineffective may be what’s driving him to stay mum about the physical effects of the trials. I also think Sam may want to wait until it gets worse before saying something.

    Plus, he’s a man. Do they usually complain about physical ailments? I’m not trying to be stereotypical or paint all males w/the same brush, but I could see either Sam or Dean not saying anything until it was too much to take.

    I’m a woman and have a very low threshold for pain. Hahaha! That said, I still don’t think I would have said anything about the bloody cough. Eww. I would probably keep it to myself. As Inky pointed out, it was just a little blood. It just wasn’t something to get excited about IMO. I would feel the same way if it happened to Dean.

    —————

    Inky, you state it so well! I couldn’t agree more w/your entire post.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 25, 2013 @ 3:17 pm

  146. Misha Collins tweeted he would become a regular again in S9. Ugh.

    Comment by Sheri — February 25, 2013 @ 6:15 pm

  147. You’re preaching to the choir Sheri. I detest Castiel and like Misha even less.

    Comment by Lugilla Brown — February 26, 2013 @ 3:54 am

  148. @Sheri – I’m surprised, I thought you liked Cas.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 26, 2013 @ 4:17 am

  149. @Lugilla – really? Because I’m pretty sure Misha would be more fun at parties.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 26, 2013 @ 4:23 am

  150. No, I could’t stand the attention whore act, I’ve seen at every single convention.

    Now if you want someone fun at a party, Mark Sheppard, he doesn’t say a word but just walks into the room and you just have to look in his direction. He actually talks to people, I told him that I almost bought a house on Impala Lane in Crowley, Tx. He thought that was a hoot and everytime he saw me he told the story to anyone around him. He invited everyone to meet him in the bar and we closed down the joint. I just adore him.

    Next at a party, Richard Speight, he’s a bit on the snarky side but I like snarky and he held me so tight when I had my picture taken with him. I appreciate a guy who isn’t afraid to interact with the fans. P.S. Jensen held me pretty tight too.

    Matt Cohen isn’t afraid to interact with fans and he wants to hug constantly but sometimes he comes off kinda creepy. He doesn’t act inappropriately or anything like that but it’s almost like he’s never got enough hugs as a child and is making up for lost time.

    Comment by Lugilla Brown — February 26, 2013 @ 6:27 am

  151. Oh Lugilla, I’m a naughty old broad, please tell me, does Jensen smell good? LOL

    Comment by roxi — February 26, 2013 @ 7:08 am

  152. And come on, how could you complain about Matt Cohen hugging too much! He’s a doll!
    Ok, I guess I’ve filled my posting quota for right now. Still trying to hold to my promise not to post as often. Cheers.

    Comment by roxi — February 26, 2013 @ 7:10 am

  153. Roxi, does Jensen smell good… OH YEAH! He was really sweet. He asked me if how I wanted the picture staged and I just said hug me like a long lost relative and oh boy, did he ever.

    Comment by Lugilla Brown — February 26, 2013 @ 9:39 am

  154. I give you credit Lugilla because girl, I’d have fainted in the presence of that gorgeous man. And if he hugged me? Oh dear God.
    To be fair, I could say the same if it were Jared, Misha, Matt, or help me God, Jeffery Dean Morgan. All gorgeous men. But Jensen is my favorite.

    Comment by roxi — February 26, 2013 @ 9:59 am

  155. hey by the way, has JDM ever gone to one of these convos? He’s the only gorgeous SPN man who is in my age range LOL

    Comment by roxi — February 26, 2013 @ 10:20 am

  156. here is what I meant to say…

    “and other folks would NOW be spinning the cover-up”

    Comment by inky — February 26, 2013 @ 12:37 pm

  157. I hated that Ellie character in trial and error, but Portia in this one was a way better female character

    Comment by fan2 — March 3, 2013 @ 1:41 am

  158. Seriously, I am just waiting to see if Sam goes darkside again. That was my favorite period of th show. Oh, and Jared Padalecki, please cut your hair!

    Comment by May — March 3, 2013 @ 9:34 am

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