“Remember the Titans” Discussion
Post your thoughts on tonight’s episode, and be sure to enjoy it since SPN is taking a brief hiatus until March 20. Click HERE for my full recap or keep reading for my quick thoughts.
So this show just killed off Zeus and Prometheus. I feel like that should probably be a bigger deal than it was, but I also love that the show has reached a point where killing Zeus is just another Wednesday afternoon for Sam and Dean.
I liked all the Greek god stuff and the cute little jokes (the bird eating his liver, the fact that he fell off a mountain in Europe).
It also worked well to bring up the age-old issue of “Saving the world comes at a high cost,” whether it’s dying every day for giving fire to humanity or going to Hell for stopping the Apocalypse. The fact that Sam is finally realizing he can’t just hope he’ll make it through this time, especially since he’s spitting up lots of blood.
The most interesting thing, however, was Sam’s knowledge. He knew that Artemis and Prometheus were secret lovers, but he also mentioned that it was never written in any book and she never told anyone about it.
How did he know? I’m pretty sure that’s part of the bigger mystery. My current theory is that he’s becoming omniscient, so maybe completing the three trials will turn Sam into God. I feel like they need to bring back God at some point, especially since Zeus went on a rant about how Prometheus was to blame for people not believing in the Greek gods any more. It made me think that he’s jealous of the Judeo-Christian God with a capital G.
Any other theories on what’s happening to Sam and how he seems to know things no one should actually know?
Now it’s three weeks of hiatus, but at least Cas, Crowley and Meg are back on March 20.
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This is going to be one the best episodes so far…and its good to hear Cas ( Misha ) will be a permanent figure next season.
Comment by Carlos — February 27, 2013 @ 5:27 pm
I am just thrilled that Dishnet has Fox/CW back in it’s line up. I was worried I’d have 2 weeks without Supernatural and NASCAR. Shoeweeeee!
Comment by twinster — February 27, 2013 @ 6:00 pm
dude.. this episode was SO GOOD.. after last week’s huge fail, well we’re back and rockin’it geez.. great great great. I wasn’t really sure at the beginnin but that final scene … it was just perfection… PERFECTION! hell, Dean praying for his little brother… man that one takes the cake
Comment by kazkriz — February 27, 2013 @ 7:10 pm
While I like that Dean already seems to know Sam’s ill, and thus another “you lied!” argument MIGHT be avoided, I find it really peculiar (and unnatural) that someone would start coughing up blood and not say anything.
I mean, yes, they are macho hunters who hide injuries, but this came out of nowhere. This could be a curse, or an attack, or who knows what. They have no idea what the second trial is, so Sam has NO way of knowing his cough is related to that…so why wouldn’t he say anything?
For all he knows, he could have been injured internally by the hellhound. Why wouldn’t he say anything?
Comment by G-Dawg — February 27, 2013 @ 7:21 pm
Sam and Dean have kept secrets from eachother and lied to eachother since the pilot 8 seasons ago…and they will do it until the last SPN eppie breathes .
Comment by ozzie — February 27, 2013 @ 7:36 pm
I think I missed the episode where Dean was labotimized. Did that episode follow the one where Sam declared him a genius at lore and the best hunter on the planet?
Good to see that the super secret hideout is now accepting overnight guests. Maybe they should invite Kevin for a sleep-over.
Maybe someone can remind me the last time these two jokers actually saved someone, as in ‘hunting evil, saving people, the family business.
While the episode wasn’t a complete train wreck and wasn’t offensive in any way, I thought the script was flat out clunky, Haley completely stupid, and the boys completely useless. On average, maybe a C or a C-.
Comment by Sheri — February 27, 2013 @ 7:55 pm
A boring episode where Dean and Sam played the wallpaper roles and the guest stars took center stage.
I thought someone had mentioned Benny was supposed to be in this episode. I guess it is an upcoming one.
Didn’t get Sam’s “I might die” speech at the end and I am actually tired of Dean praying to Cas for help.
Next we get back the boring Meg and the irritating Crowley. Hope the boys have a bit part of two before the season ends.
Comment by SL — February 27, 2013 @ 8:00 pm
I’am not a fan of bloaty demon Meg 2 ..but I do like Crowley…so will watch next month.. to at least see him in action.
Comment by ozzie — February 27, 2013 @ 8:06 pm
I think the show has lost itself. Jensen is fantastic actor, but Dean praying to Cas to “look out for Sam”? Really? Is that really what Dean’s been cut down to? I found myself just not caring and that makes me sad. The Greek mythology was cool, but Sam suddenly made quite a jump from ‘guy that dies a lot’ to Prometheus without a lot of info. Maybe he was researching all night and we just didn’t know? Seems like a huge leap in logic. But, without Bobby to feed them information (Bobby being able to come up with answers out of thin air was at least believable) I suppose they have to write Sam as the super smart guy. Too bad that write Dean as a moron. They’ve used the ‘Dean makes goofy joke, Sam looks at him like he’s an idiot’ scene quite enough thank you. I’ll watch this show till it ends and I’m hoping they can bring my passion back somehow but it’s not looking good right now.
Comment by SueP — February 27, 2013 @ 8:16 pm
SueP (Post #9): Sadly, I agree with you completely.
Comment by SL — February 27, 2013 @ 8:43 pm
Dean praying and Sam blooding scenes were completely unnecessary. Everybody knows that Castiel will fix everything (one more time) *roll eyes*
So, the best hunter on the planet has a fix-everything angel, AGAIN..so brave. Great.
Comment by Mireya — February 27, 2013 @ 9:15 pm
After 7 and 1/2 seasons, we don’t need any more stand-alone episodes. Supernatural should just get into the “closing the doors of hell” story.
Stand-alones should be reserved for those truly special stories. This Greek gods episode was NOT one of them. It was OK, but not worth the effort it took to film it.
I do NOT agree with those who say the show is slipping. I just think there should be LESS stand alones at this point.
Comment by JJA — February 27, 2013 @ 9:36 pm
Pretty sure, they wouldn’t turn Sam into God. I mean seriously? We’re talking triple shark-jump and cartwheels over the atlantic on that one. No clue why Sam seems to be a bit more intuitive on this one.
On a more serious note, I loved how they focused on Sam’s growing anxiety over coughing up blood and him coming to the realization that he might not make it out of this one alive. Dean praying for Sam at the end really hit me hard, though I don’t think Dean necessarily realizes how much of a toll the trials are taking on Sam.
Comment by Mindy — February 27, 2013 @ 10:26 pm
Dean has prayed before…this is not new….so poignant to see his face so vulnerable again…He will always be that way about Sammy. Love that!
Comment by MEG — February 27, 2013 @ 10:36 pm
..Oh, and on a really superficial note: Anyone else think Prometheus was HOT??
Comment by MEG — February 27, 2013 @ 10:50 pm
Personally, I’m tired of Dean always being that way about Sam. Good grief, Sam is a grown man of 30 and Dean still treats him like a child. I’m just really tired of the same old thing after 8 years.
Comment by Jo — February 28, 2013 @ 1:25 am
Dean praying…tired of it. He needs to be proactive in something other than calling Cas.
Maybe Sam will become an angel…Cas a series regular next season to teach him the ropes. After completing the first task Sams arm lit up sorta the same way it does when angels kill demons.
I’m not really religious but did a google search and found this, not sure if its been mentioned before…
Revelation 20:1-3
And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations any more until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
If Carver follows the bible that would mean Sam would die, become an angel and most likely threw Crowley into hell and sealed it, right? Unless Cas swoops in and does it…
Comment by CS — February 28, 2013 @ 2:50 am
So Sam and Cas are gonna hunt together? An angel couple? Because dean is going to be pretty useless in front of two angels.
But i don’t think Sam is going to become something else. This show is about hunting. If Sam becomes anything other than human, there will be no more hunting.
But maybe Sam is going to close the gates of hell and will be trapped there himself and this will be the season final cliffhanger, Sam trapped in hell.
Comment by jen — February 28, 2013 @ 3:25 am
I haven’t watched the last two episodes and from what I read so far, it was a good idea.
Comment by bahar — February 28, 2013 @ 3:29 am
i first want to say Jensen Ackles is the most beautiful, fantastic actor out there that needs to get recognized for his acting chops. that last scene was beautifully done by him. even though it was totally contrived and ridiculous. in fact when dean walked into that bedroom i said out loud to the tv (like the tv will respond to me right??) i said “no-don’t do it”. and sure enough the writers never will pass it up a chance to make dean a wusse/sap-dean starts praying to cas!!! OMG really??? cas-suicidal cas, cas who the brothers know and have been suspicious of since he got back from purgatory-who has done nothing but screw with them since practically day 1-dean prays to cas AGAIN!!. this scene would have been so much better to me if dean talked to mary or john -you know how we sometimes talk to our dead parents??? -i mean i know praying to god is out of the question -but cas really??? whatever.
as for the titans-meh-not bad-not good-the wtf this week -secret mol hideout and you bring a civilian in for protection??? really?? and dean brags about who and what the mol are. really??? but you leave kevin on a rusty boat-really???? i guess the secret batcave ain’t going to be so secret after all.
as for sam and dean talk-nothing new here. same old same old from the past 7 1/2 seasons-at least dean knows what going on with sam and sam knows dean knows (after all dean said “sam is cagey”)but he still is lying to dean!!! hmmmmm makes sense (sarcasm). and those wonderful speeches from trial and error-went out the window this week because sam thinks he is going to die and dean is all boo hooy about it. yep -time to bow out of this series. benny’s episode and the finale and i am done.
Comment by animal — February 28, 2013 @ 3:39 am
So now dean is praying for Sam’s health while Sam couldn’t care less dean was dead or alive? I can’t get past the first nine episodes. Sam didn’t even bother, didn’t spend one second to find out what happened to dean and now like always dean is driving himself nuts just from worrying about Sam. How do they even call this a brotherly relationship? They’re more like master and slave.
Comment by jen — February 28, 2013 @ 3:39 am
#20
I don’t think even the Benny’s episode is worth watching. It’s likely he’s going to drink human blood again and dean will have to kill him, probably to save a sick injured-by-benny Sam and he has to apologize for being stupid and becoming bff with a monster and Sam will never acknowledge his mistakes.
Comment by jen — February 28, 2013 @ 3:54 am
this was another episode with sam and dean helping someone besides themselves it was great and different. loved the end dean is so very tired and dean admitting he could use some help doesn’t come very often. I cant wait till march 20th to see more.
Comment by hw — February 28, 2013 @ 4:04 am
hw(#23): Glad you still feel that way about the show. Hope it stays that way for you. Once in awhile it is good to hear people are still enjoying the show.
animal (#20): Sadly, I agree with most of what you wrote- except the bowing out part. I’ll go down with the ship myself…just wish I was enjoying some of it while it happened.
Used to be I couldn’t stand when a hiatus came because I missed the show so much. Now I am glad for the 3 weeks off; I can try to get the bad taste out of my mouth.
Comment by SL — February 28, 2013 @ 5:13 am
Tough crowd.
I liked it myself. It was better than last week’s episode, and I wasn’t one who hated that one either.
I took an immediate liking to Prometheus and the sheriff who found him. I thought his zombie obsession was funny. I liked how he wanted to go w/the “boys” as he called him to get the zombie. I can’t say his reaction was crazy. The guy was definitely dead w/a bird picking at his body.
Didn’t like Halely though. She seemed rather stupid. Her son dies on a daily basis and comes back to life the next day, but she found it hard to believe what the boys were telling her?!?!? Why? And then she freed Zeus? Ugh . . . she was just dumb to me.
Zeus. Loved him. The guy playing him had real presence. He was pretty cool.
Artemis. We didn’t see much of her. She was all right.
Sam and Dean. They are the reason I watch. Unlike many of you, I’m a sucker for a “brotherly love” speech. I didn’t find it OOC or OTT that Dean prayed to Cas to look out for Sam. His speech was quite touching IMO. Very sincere and heartfelt. I loved it.
I was also happy to see the boys talking in the Impala. We haven’t had many of those scenes that I can recall. It was good, IMO, that Sam was honest w/Dean about his feelings re: surviving the trials. Sam knows he’s throwing up blood, which is a huge problem. I liked Dean’s pep talk to him.
I love the brother scenes and always will. Their bond and connection has never been dead to me. It’s been downplayed and under serious strain, but never dead. J2 have great chemistry.
I’m also happy that what I really wanted seems to have come true (at least so far). Dean knows that Sam is having problems AND he understands why Sam’s not saying anything. There’s no anger, no accusations of betrayal. Dean is just worried about his brother. He’s not angry w/Sam, which is how I was hoping Dean would react.
I’m a happy viewer. The brothers are in a much better place than they were in the beginning of the season. As I said after ATGB, I, like many of you, would have preferred Carver address Sam’s OOC actions and behavior in the first part of the season but it seems he has moved on w/the story. Because my primary joy in the show comes from the brothers, I am happy to move on w/the show and forget the HORROR that was the first 11 episodes. I understand others can’t. It’s easy for me b/c the first 11 episodes didn’t even feel like Supernatural to me. I had taken to calling Sam “podSam” over on TWFB and other forums. Ever since ATGB, the show, to me, feels like Supernatural again.
Hopefully, those who continue to watch will find something they enjoy about the show.
Comment by Lisa1 — February 28, 2013 @ 5:38 am
@jen-i hope you are wrong-but it could go that way-i am thinking more that benny is a vamp that naomi minipulated-(she is the “they”) that benny talked about in purgatory.but after benny spent so much time fighting along side dean in purgatory that he did develop a pure and honest relationship with dean and decided not to do whatever the naomi original plan was-so the poop is going to hit the fan with him for not following her orders. story might not go that way either but we will see. i love benny. so i have to watch to see what they do to his character.
Comment by animal — February 28, 2013 @ 5:50 am
@animal
That’s a good scenario but it’s unlikely. I think the writers have forgotten they mentioned a “they” at some point. So far whatever I was hoping for this season has gone to hell. The big example is purgatory’s flash backs. They were supposed to be a big part of this season but where are they now?
But you’re right. We just have to wait and see. I guess I just don’t want to get my hopes high and be disappointed again.
Comment by jen — February 28, 2013 @ 6:11 am
@17 cs
I wanted to comment on your post. I have thought the same thing about Sam. Not that he will become God as another post said, but the he might become an Angel. I mean; a regular Man would not be able to close the gates of hell, right?
I think that Sam may change or become something more supernatural, but this time it will be a good thing? Like not a demon blood infested abomination, but instead a champion of Heaven?
@25 Lisa1
I agree with your post. I liked the episode. It was much better than last week. I still have some questions. I know Sam was doing research (it looks that way, when he came out of the motels back door) to find out about Promethium. I also agree with another post here stating that Sam seems to know some things he should not know about. When Dean looked at Sam at one point with a clear look of how do you know this? Sam has this look on his face, the “please don’t ask me how I know this look”.
I am very sorry to hear about the other fans and how disappointed they are with how the episodes/Season arc is taking place. I do hope that the ones that continue to watch can find/be given something of what they would like to see.
For the ones that are done with the show, I wish you the best, hopefully you can find something else on TV that can replace your excitement for watching a TV series the way Supernatural used to do.
Comment by Jose — February 28, 2013 @ 6:23 am
Ladies and Gentlemen, Jensen Ackles.
I am not the teary-eyed sort when it comes to Supernatural but I admit I had a tear in my eye. Fantastic monologue made all the more poignant by the fact that Cas is in no position to help. I also loved that we had no heated confrontations between Sam and Dean over keeping secrets and the like. A refreshing change of pace.
Overall, a much better episode than last week. The dialogue and pacing were leaps and bounds over MBFWB and I have to say most of season 7. Two of the guest stars, Zeus and Prometheus, were really stand outs and sadly those were the two that were killed off. Of course. I also like the zombie-obsessed sheriff.
The brother stuff was nice. Yes, Sam is not completely OK and yes, Dean knows it but what else do you do at this point but carry on.
I liked the switch up with Sam beginning to doubt–after all, he is probably not feeling so hot and a god who couldn’t die just did–and Dean being the optimist. Sometimes that how it works in my family. When my husband is having a hard time, I am his cheerleader and when I can’t see a light at the end of the tunnel, he picks me up. So I wasn’t bothered by the changing POVs.
There were a few nit picks but I wasn’t all that bothered by them. It’s not going on a top ten list, but solid and enjoyable.
Comment by inky — February 28, 2013 @ 6:27 am
@jose- i already got my new wednesday line up- instead of arrow/supernatural its going to -dragons-riders of berk -next season though they are changing the title to dragons-warriors of berk. i think that is what my daughter told me. so i will be watching that with her. then i will return to the ghost hunters fan base. i was there until supernatural got switched to wednesday-so i am going back. grant and jay. not as sexy as j2 though.
Comment by animal — February 28, 2013 @ 6:50 am
I really liked this one. I found all the guest stars very compelling and the fact that all the brothers could really do in the face of the melodrama of the greek gods was play on their emotions to be a suitable way to deal with them.
Regarding the brothers, as long as they are talking I am a happy camper. I am over the moon that it seems there isn’t going to be a big blow out over the coughing up blood thing.
Comment by trina — February 28, 2013 @ 6:51 am
jay is for jason by the way. just sayin.
Comment by animal — February 28, 2013 @ 6:54 am
This episode was ok. The writing this season is better than the last 2 but they just can’t find their groove.
Dean praying to Cas was so natural that I question if those who think it wasn’t have watched the show before. Dean would do (and has done) anything to save his ‘little brother’. People are still mistaking the lies and bickering as something other than what they are. 2 brothers trying their best to save each other against insurmountable odds. They have both sacrificed everything multiple times for each other and ultimately, as the older brother, Dean’s greatest pain is the thought of outliving his brother.
And Cas is not all powerful. Yes, Cas has saved the day on occasion. Usually because the situation made it completely implausible for the brothers to have done it themselves. The irony is that those who talk of ‘all powerful Cas saving the day’ seem to want it rather to be ‘implausible human brothers defeating gods’. The story has gone to places where there was just no way for the brothers to realistically resolve it themselves without ‘divine intervention’. They’ve stretched the idea of ‘the human spirit’ as far as they realistically could. Now I’m not saying there weren’t some poorly written ones in there that could have been handled better. But ultimately, if they were dealing with demons, they were eventually going to get out of their league. Look into the real lore about angels and demons. ‘2 guys with grit’ wouldn’t stand a chance for long. Go back and watch the scene with Death in the pizza shop at the end of season 5. It really puts everything in perspective.
Comment by mythos — February 28, 2013 @ 7:35 am
@SL- I’m afraid I’m with you about the hiatus this time. I’m not anxious to get to the next episode (which makes me sad).
As for this ep, I just can’t justify Sam’s leaps of logic. He hd nothing but a laptop and a guy that died everyday, yet he suddenly gets from witch’s curse to Titan in one fell swoop. OK. Maybe he googled it and got lucky? I’ll give him that one. But the Artemis loves Prometheus jump? Nope, no basis in Greek Mythology for that one. Artmetis loved Orion. So there’s no lore that would suggest it, it was just a guess? Sorry, not buying that.
And poor Dean. He’s such a shell of who he used to be. Sudden;y he’s Sam’s cheerleader? Wasn’t it just last week Sam was berating him about trust? He capitulates and now Sam is saying the exact same thing Dean has been saying all along, but it’s OK now? this is a pretty one-sided relationship and it makes me sad that the coolest character on TV has been reduced to a cheerleader who prays to angels to watch out for his brother. It’s really too bad he’s been written to be so useless at this point. Like SL, I’m in it for the long haul, but the passion is gone. I had such high hopes for Carver, but that’s gone, too.
Comment by SueP — February 28, 2013 @ 11:34 am
@30 animal
Hi, I happen to (love) watching dragons-riders of berk with my kids. We DVR to make sure we don’t miss and episode. We loved the movie, so the animated series is just in our alley. I really hope you enjoy the show and the bonding time with your daughter.
Comment by Jose — February 28, 2013 @ 11:59 am
@36 I will- ok which dragon do you like the best??? i love toothless of course, but my next favorite is whispering death- those teeth remind me of the langoliers!!. but thanks!! you enjoy spn for what it will become.
Comment by animal — February 28, 2013 @ 12:17 pm
Ungrateful wretches! LOL You guys are one tough crowd. Seriously. If you guys have daughters-in-law - I pity them.
Y’all are mostly s1-s3 fans, and this should have had you jumping for joy. It was 97% S1-S3, bad boys winchester kicking gods and taking names. Plus you got to see the batcave and Stupid Mother Syndrome, which is supposed to underscore the need for the boys to save children from their incompetant mothers and absent fathers. (Like Kevin’s mom, and the anti-christ’s mom, and … you get the point).
I’m being a bit snarky, but really, it was much better written than last week’s epi. Very solid MOTW tv. Craftsmanship. I agree that the leap from hex bag to titan was jarring - and more than that, a missed opportunity. I would have expected a funny montage of Sam rifling through every book in the library, researching til he falls asleep on his burger, etc and Dean trying every test he could think of - including some funny ones just to amuse himself. I also think that the ‘god with amnesia’? trope didn’t work. It would have been better if they’d brought the mother in sooner and had her explain finding him and shown him struggling to recollect things.
And the last scene - that’s as fine an example of what makes SPN special as any I’ve seen. Think about it from an actor’s perspective. There’s no action. No one to react to. No props (other than putting your coat down.) Just you and a monologue. The writer tweeted that he and Jensen worked on the prayer right before they shot it. Mostly removing dialogue. Which is how we got a prayer that was spare, beatiful, completely in character, and heartbreaking. Jensen’s performance was pitch perfect. Solemn, almost melancholy, but in an understated way. (I wonder if we see Jared’s influence there.) It was an everyday, intimate moment, when Dean finally has a moment to himself. And someone to talk to - even if he isn’t there.
Animal - I’ve never understood your standard of manliness/wussiness. Even the most hardened soldier has moments when they’re tired, or afraid, or long for home, or the company of friends. To me that underscores their basic humanity and the sacrifices they make for the rest of us. If you really think the ghostfacers.. um ghost hunters and children’s tv is more your speed - uh. who am I to argue? I’ll be interested to see if you actually stop posting here … I think a couple weeks away and you’ll regret your decision.
Comment by t1gerlilly — February 28, 2013 @ 12:27 pm
@tigerlilly-your point about soldiers is valid-however dean is more than a soldier-he is a hunter/hero/purgatory survivor/hell survivor-torturer/big brother/savior of the world what 3 times over??? supposedly he came out of purgatory with a new sense of who he is and what his purpose is -so why the drama??? poor writing for the most part. dean should be doing the trials-it makes no sense to have sam do them. other than putting jensen back into the emo-i let everyone down -poor me-cas help me i can’t do it alone anymore- state of mind. Woosey-soft-balless-needy-do you get it now??? real men stand up-they take what comes thier way and they make it work-they may talk thier feelings out -pray to god in real life-talk to deceased parents- ect…. any hero story i have seen-and i have seen alot-none have become so needy as dean especially when cas is around. which by the way-i very strongly think destiel fans are going to be very happy with the next episode in 3 weeks. that kiss may be there. hug for sure. this dean is not the dean i fell in love with. not love love-you know what i mean!! lol. i have no respect for this character at all-and sam-well at least he tries-and he doesn’t boo hoo all the time-at this point i would sam is more a man than dean is. which saddens me terribly-that is why i am out. other than benny-so tigerlilly you will see me after that episode. and the finale-maybe. does garth have one more episode??? i thought he might. i might ck into that one as well.
Comment by animal — February 28, 2013 @ 1:01 pm
oh and tigerlilly don’t mock the cartoons-dragons is a fantastic cartoon. and my daughter watches gravity falls which is a kids version of supernatural on a very simplistic level. that too is very good. try them out before you judge. you might be surprised.
Comment by animal — February 28, 2013 @ 1:04 pm
thats “at this point i would SAY sam is more a man than dean”. darn fingers.
Comment by animal — February 28, 2013 @ 1:05 pm
@36 animal
Comment by Jose — February 28, 2013 @ 1:31 pm
@41 animal
toothless is our favorite. We just love watching him. His facial expressions are funny.
Comment by Jose — February 28, 2013 @ 1:33 pm
@43-yea he is darling-but in your opinion-more bat like, or more cat like???
Comment by animal — February 28, 2013 @ 1:48 pm
@43 animal
I am not sure, when he smiles and you can’t really see any teeth, it’s hard to match him to another animal. But I would have to say a bat. The wings just do it for me. lol
Comment by Jose — February 28, 2013 @ 1:55 pm
@jose-yea me too-but the kids all say cat. must be an adult/child thing. i mean his wings are definately batlike right?? mannerisms though-either way. but thanks for the talk. i never thought i would be talking about dragons on this site. lol. crazy!! lol.
Comment by animal — February 28, 2013 @ 2:10 pm
@animal - it sounds like a ripoff of the dragonriders of pern series by anne mccaffrey.
Comment by t1gerlilly — February 28, 2013 @ 2:10 pm
#38-animal, I agree wholeheartedly. This is not the Dean I fell in love with. I love that Jensen made the prayer shorter and more meaningful (because, let’s face it, guys don’t have long drawn out emo conversations with angels or anything that’s not there) and he did a fantastic job with what he had, but it was still petty contrived and so not Dean. And t1gerlilly, if you think that was like seasons 1-3, you were watching a vastly different show than I was 7.5 years ago. Back then, the guys knew when they were over their heads. They pushed on but they acted lie they knew they didn’t have a chance in hell. So it was a victory when things worked out. Last night, they didn’t even hesitate. They’ve never ganked a Greek god before, but it was just another day at the office? Outside of the jarring jumps in logic (apparently Sam is so smart that books and Bobby are not needed anyway), they waded between actual mythology and just making it up.
animal, I don’t think the Destiel fans will get what they want, tho. Carver isn’t going to shoot himself in the foot. A hug, maybe. But Dean has stated more than once, he see’s Cas as a brother, family member. It means no more than when he hugged Bobby or Sam. Or Benny for that matter. They’ll just have to stick with overthinking their subtext and and seeing what they want to see.
@mythos - Dean’s reaction to Death in the pizza shop is exactly what is missing now. He knew he was outmatched. He knew he was biting off more than he could chew. He was scared to death (pun intended) and it showed! But the heroic part was he did it anyway and hoped for the best. They didn’t have that at all last night. They just set out to kill a god. No problem. Happens every day. It’s that kind of sloppy writing and lack of continuity that has people bothered — not the situations, but that they aren’t reacting like humans or hunters anymore. That is what this show is about. The triumph of humanity over evil, over overwhelming odds. Yes, Cas is a deus ex machina because he can solve most problems the boys find themselves in. It’s too easy. They get shot, no problem Cas can fix it. They need to get across the country, Cas snaps his fingers. They need to kill a monster, Cas can pop over to Isreal and get them a branch from an olive tree… having a powerful angel at their beck and call makes it less a human drama. Of course neither Sam or Dean will ever be anything other than human for that simple reason, but the writers have started to rely to much on the magic fixes and the human heros are becoming obsolete. ie: they’ve been wallpaper in a majority of the last 2.5 seasons. Once this show stops being about two hero brothers fighting against the odds, it stops being the show it started out to be. Unfortunately, THAT is the show I watched from the start. And THAT is the show I hope is not lost for good.
Comment by SueP — February 28, 2013 @ 2:12 pm
@tigerlilly-now you see i am going to have to google that -dragonriders of pern??? hmmmmm-is it a cartoon or live action??? -are the riders vikings or midevel characters???
Comment by animal — February 28, 2013 @ 2:14 pm
@tigerlilly-nope i don’t think so-(i went to wikipedia)-very very very loosely maybe-like the idea of dragons on an island and people riding them kind of idea is the same. but the cartoon is about a boy who is a very underwhelming viking in statue but tries to prove he is more than what he seems to be every day. he tames the dragons. and is a HERO with help from 6 friends and thier dragons (who he helped his friends tame). anyway-its a good story for kids about overcoming your disabilities (the boy has a missing foot and wears a steal blade-like the blade runner has kinda of thing) and having faith in yourself and what you can accomplish. wow-maybe dean can watch this show and learn something like getting his self respect and confidence back. just sayin.
Comment by animal — February 28, 2013 @ 2:30 pm
see -did ya’ll like the way i brought the dragons discussion back to supernatural??? yea-thats right! i am that good. lol.
Comment by animal — February 28, 2013 @ 2:33 pm
@ t1gerlilly #37: I agree that JA was perfection in delivering the prayer. It wasn’t the acting or even the scene that bugged me, though I do wish the show would make use of JA’s talent as something other than a buffoon.
It may have been a call-back to S1-S3 Dean, but that is exactly the problem with the scene. It’s been done so many times that it’s lost all emotional impact for me, especially when Sam didn’t spend a second worrying about Dean while he romped in the sack with bitchy vet. It makes Dean look pathetic, weak, and (again) with no story except Sam’s cheerleader.
It also puts Dean back to a character who’s only role is to worry about Sam.
The prayer served two purposes: 1) to show that Dean is aware of Sam hiding something, and he’s worried, but not mad about it. That is some bit of growth for Dean’s character, but it’s damned small after 8 years.
It was a bridging scene to bring Cas back into the storyline and to show that Dean misses his friend, Cas. The problem with that is that Dean has supposedly been distrustful of Cas ever since he came back from Purgatory, and the last time the brothers saw Cas, they were warding Rufus’ cabin just to keep him out. Now, he not only prays to the guy, but prays to the guy IN THE BUNKER, which is supposed to be a super-secret place that has been kept secret for hundreds, if a thousands years. Not to mention, this scene followed the scenes where they invited random civilian lady and her kid into the super secret bunker and than Dean blabbed about the super secret MoLs society, who didn’t even tell but a few select hunters who could be trusted, about themselves. WTH? I guess we’re supposed to believe that neither Hayley nor her kid will ever mention any of this to a single soul for the rest of their lives. The whole episode made Dean look stupid, weak, and needy.
The weekly mentioning of Cas and/or Kevin, along with this scene asking Cas to help Sam while he does the trials, speaks loudly that the season belongs to Cas and Kevin and the Winchesters will be the B-plot characters once again.
I would have much rather had an episode focusing on the brothers (who were the B-plot in this episode) and something with a little more punch to it than a prayer to Cas to lead into a mini-hiatus on the show.
Comment by Sheri — February 28, 2013 @ 2:59 pm
see i didn’t even see the prayer as a throw back to s1-s3-because it was delivered under differant circumstances. when old dean had these emotional speeches they were always about what HE did or what SAM did and it was to EACH other. It was about opening up to EACH other. thats why the speeches in torn and frayed went over better for me than this one. This speech -even though it was beautiful and jensen man he killed it-thats a good thing by the way for you people who don’t understand tween language-it was strictly dean boo hooing-plain and simple. i am glad to hear jensen decided to change the writing up-but i blame him just as much as the writers and carver for where dean is this season. for deans lack of arc.he should be fighting for his character more than what it seems he is doing. imo.
Comment by animal — February 28, 2013 @ 3:59 pm
now you can say it was a throw back to seasons 4 and 5-thats when imo the dean character started going down this wussey/balless path because of castiel.
Comment by animal — February 28, 2013 @ 4:05 pm
@SueP(#47) - I’ve never understood people who watch or read this type of genre and then cry foul when the humans fail to prove supreme. Humans are weak, frail creatures in comparison to the things they’ve gone up against. To me, the show started becoming less and less believable until they brought in the angels. There was always an angel on their shoulder. It was established that they had been killed multiple times and were brought back without knowledge of it. To me, that’s what made the show believable. The show acknowledging how unrealistic the idea of a few humans standing a chance against such circumstances allowed the show to progress. It allowed the characters to grow. It allowed the story to make sense. They could have never actually ‘won’ without help. Some of the basic creatures they may have been able to beat but some of the demons they were going up against were far too powerful for them. Even killing Azazel they couldn’t do on their own. The show has never been about what some here seem to want it to be abiyt. They point back to s1-3 as if it wasn’t always leading to s4-5. It was the plan from the beginning, assuming the show lasted the 5 seasons that Kripke was aiming for. You don’t kill off the main protagonist in s3 without a reason. And 5 seasons is always the plan, it’s the magic number in tv. Now it is rare that someone plans for 5 seasons, tells the story they wanted to and then up and leaves despite being renewed. That’s what messed up the last few seasons. But the battle had been fought. The story was supposed to be over. Sam wasn’t supposed to survive. It wasn’t supposed to have a ‘happy ending’. Now since then, they’ve had no idea what to do. They did survive the apocalypse. The characters had gone too far. They themselves became too powerful. They needed to start reintroducing flaws in order to go forward. They should both be alcoholic, drug abusing thugs by now after what they’ve been through. That doesn’t work for the story. So they’re trying to reform the characters so it makes sense. Basically regress them to earlier versions of themselves so that they can move forward again. It started when they tried to come up with something more powerful. It started with Eve. There was no reason for Eve to have had any power over angels nor did it make sense that phoenix ashes could kill her. They tried too hard to have the angels weakened the the humans strengthened. The thinking that it should be that way is what got us what was season 6. Then that wasn’t good enough so they came up with the Leviathan. And they didn’t do a bad job with the Leviathan but needing to make it so easy for the humans (kill the leader and the rest will just forget what they were doing..really?) is what made it suck again. They need to find a happy medium. They can make any character relevant if they actually think about that character rather than trying to think of some way to hinder that character.
Comment by mythos — February 28, 2013 @ 4:56 pm
@animal - The dragonriders of pern is a book series.
I still don’t get your wussiness complaint. I mean, let’s throw it out there - oh, yea - fans of this forum, lend me your ears -
IS DEAN WINCHESTER A WUSS?
See, cause I think Dean Winchester is a , purgatory-purging, god-stomping, werewolf-whomping, amazon-assassinating, ghost-ganking, satan-smacking, motherf@#king badass of the first order.
And what you REALLY mean is that you think he’s gay. You just don’t want to say it because people have called you homophobic before. Right?
Comment by t1gerlilly — February 28, 2013 @ 5:01 pm
Come to think of it, I agree with you animal. S4-S7 Dean was the balless-life-sucks Dean, but throughout the series, it’s been made apparent that Dean takes care of Sam.
There’s a couple of other interesting points to this useless prayer, too. Wasn’t Dean going to go find another hellhound in just the last episode? If he’s this despairing now, I don’t know why he would pray to someone he doesn’t quite trust, instead of just go off and try to a hellhound and kill it. This is the guy who killed himself to make a deal with Death and then bound Death to try to take out the powerful LeviCas, after all.
Isn’t this the same guy who was strong, confident, and came back from Purgatory with a new clarity in just the beginning of this season after being away from Sam for a year? He’s with Sam a few months, and now he’s all mauldin, wussey, losing brain cells fast, and wringing his hands over Sam’s well-being again. That’s quite the brotherhood to fight for, IMO, and it’s not one that I’m very invested in anymore.
And didn’t Sam come to the realization this episode of the same thing that “suicidal” Dean has been telling him all along — that there is a good possibility the one doing the trials might die? Wasn’t that the Prometheus parallel to Sam in this story?
Sam: “What do we know of that has Jason Bourne fighting skills, dies a lot and has a history with violent women?”
Dean: “I don’t know, you?”
Comment by Sheri — February 28, 2013 @ 5:06 pm
Thank you, Mythos, for making sense. Humans are only human. However, humans have smarts and creativity.
SueP - it’s called deductive reasoning. Prometheus told Sam and Dean Artemis was not happy he didn’t recognize her. Plus, she came and fought him and looked pretty lethal, but didn’t take Prometheus or kill him. She cared. If Sam wanted to turn Artemis into their ally, he had to find her buttons - which he did.
Sheri, yeah, the parallel is that you save the world and still die for it.
Comment by Kim — February 28, 2013 @ 5:21 pm
Someone mentioned the lack of “emotional impact” in the prayer scene here and I agree completely. The acting was great but the content did nothing at all for me.
Sam’s character has been so poorly written this season that saying a prayer for him would never come to my mind. And Dean praying to……Cas? “Praying”? Come on! What has happened to Dean?
The tough, independent, direct fighter that literally leaped out of purgatory has become a comical, wish-washy servant for Sam. Why? What happened to him?
The writers did! The same lousy writers that made Sam into such an ass have also decided that Dean should become a shallow shell that follows Sam around like a panting dog balancing a ball on his nose for tricks!
No Dean is not a “wuss”. And Sam is not an “ass”. But they are being written that way and the two actors are allowing them to be written that way.
That is an insult to the fans of this show and of these characters. We deserve better.
Comment by SL — February 28, 2013 @ 5:21 pm
@ mythos: We don’t know for sure that was EK’s plan at all. He’s told two versions of the story — that he had a rough outline of what he wanted to do, that the brothers were both supposed to die at the end of S3 and that he had a 5-year plan. His most recent version is that both brothers were supposed to die at the end — I think meaning at the end of the show, but they got renewed for S6. All the showrunners on this show lie, so it’s hard to keep their stories straight.
What EK has faithfully said and what Carver and Singer have both said this season is that the show is about humanity, and that is why the angels, the anti-Christ (who they never brought back because he was too powerful according to EK), and the Gods are problematic. I did find it rather odd that the brothers were so blasé about going after Zeus in this episode. There’s no way for humans to compete with these powerful entities; therefore, we get the emoting brother crap, the our-lives-suck crap, the brother ‘tension’ crap, and Cas saving the day so much.
I would say that with creative and talented writers, that would not have to be the case, but it is as of now. The writers either just don’t care anymore or they aren’t talented enough or have the desire enough to come up with anything but character outlines of the brothers, rehashed material, and an emphasis on support characters. They obviously don’t even bother to watch the show or even make themselves aware of any other writer’s script to see what they have done. You’d think they would take some bit of pride in their work.
Comment by Sheri — February 28, 2013 @ 5:26 pm
This was a very good episode but I expected Zeus to be a douche with good intentions. Also i didnt want him or prometheus to die because i cant believe that a god or titan that have been around since the beginnin of time can die so easily. Also i was hoping that maybe the gods could be featured in a future season or something. Also Artemis is a virgin goddess so she doesnt fall in love with men, or at least thats what ive heard. Also Gods are suppose to be more kind than Titans, but in this episode it showed titans being more kind than gods. Also the reason prometheus gave humans fire was to piss off zeus, from what ive heard.
Comment by Ezequiel — February 28, 2013 @ 5:42 pm
forgot to say, that i think the guy that played zeus was perfect, his voice is like morgan freemans ,a godlike voice, his beard, how he stands straight and how he had that “im the boss and you all should bow down to me” vibe. Perfect actor for zeus
Comment by Ezequiel — February 28, 2013 @ 5:49 pm
@57- sheri- YES to all your questions.
@tigerlilly-gawd-i am not going to acknowledge that accusation. period-
Comment by animal — February 28, 2013 @ 6:03 pm
I’m sorry, I’m shallow. I loved the zombie conspiracy sheriff (of all the civilians they’ve tried to convince, this one is in it for the wrong reasons - love it). Prometheus actor was sweet and gorgeous. And, let us not forget, five (is it 5?) bi-brother, angel-free episodes. Heaven. Yes, I know, the annoying angel actor has been signed as a regular. I can only hope he will be given a full, rich arch with stand-alone episodes that I can skip.
Comment by RS — February 28, 2013 @ 7:19 pm
animal around Cas Dean can at times be kind and gentle and sometimes melancholy in his demeanor. This is not being a wuss, it’s being three dimensional. Being a bad-ass does not preclude being human or humane. Having a gentle side to his nature does not me he temporarily stops being an ass kicking hunter it means he is not a two dimensional card board cut out.
Comment by Haley 56 — February 28, 2013 @ 8:25 pm
Sorry the second last line is supposed to read “….does not mean he temporarily….”
edit button edit button edit button, chant with me…….
Comment by Haley 56 — February 28, 2013 @ 8:28 pm
Guess I just have low expectation or whatever. As long as the brothers are good with each other, I’m generally ok. The writers have their own ideas, and aren’t going to do what i want. Expecting otherwise, it’s just frustrating.
However, I do want coherence, non-contradictory writing and the leads to stay somewhat in character. That’s why I really disliked the first half of the season. My issues with the episode were mainly:
1. The boys being so blasé about the Greek gods and ganking them.
2. Them bringing random people to the hideout, and discussibg the MoL society with them. That just isn’t possible.
3. Just dean showing his devotion to Sam. I feel we need something more from Sam too, esp
Comment by Tammy — February 28, 2013 @ 9:03 pm
Guess I just have low expectation or whatever. As long as the brothers are good with each other, I’m generally ok. The writers have their own ideas, and aren’t going to do what i want. Expecting otherwise, it’s just frustrating.
However, I do want coherence, non-contradictory writing and the leads to stay somewhat in character. That’s why I really disliked the first half of the season. My issues with this episode were mainly:
1. The boys being so blasé about the Greek gods and ganking them.
2. Them bringing random people to the hideout, and discussibg the MoL society with them. That just isn’t possible.
3. Just Dean showing his devotion to Sam. I feel we need something more from Sam too, esp considering the awful 10,11 episode Sam characterization without explanation.
4. Praying to Cas in the hideout. I liked his concern for sam, didnt find that OOC, but they were warding away the angel in the cabin as they were suspicious of him. Has Dean forgotten that?
And generally, I’m not sure why the writers can’t find find some balance in the boys’ characters, instead of having them go from one extreme to another. Shouldn’t be THAT difficult. Sam going from a retard (first half) to super smart now. Dean moving from badass super fighter to somehow seeming dumb and incompetent (two episodes). Total unconcern for each other (first ten epis) to complete devotion.
Come on, Supernatural guys, do your homework. Your fans deserve that.
Comment by Tammy — February 28, 2013 @ 9:21 pm
Oops sorry about the double post. Edit button, edit button…
Comment by Tammy — February 28, 2013 @ 9:23 pm
@animal - ok. Whatever. But the things you say just make no sense to me. You spent weeks complaining that perfect Dean needed more screen time and now he’s a sackless, ball-free wuss? Because he talks to his friend when he’s worried about his brother? And worried about his friend - who isn’t suicidal, but is afraid he might become suicidal. It seems like you think guys have to be the terminator or something. And the way you talk about them … I mean, do you talk to the real men in your life this way? With no compassion for human needs and frailty? It can’t help but make me wonder how much time you spend with men. Or whether you’re divorced. Or where all this is coming from, because I just don’t get it.
Comment by t1gerlilly — March 1, 2013 @ 12:24 am
@tigerlilly-i will ignore the insult part of your post-but i am married. happily and thoroughly to my best friend and soul mate. i guess tigerlilly in shows-SHOWS NOT REAL LIFE -SHOWS-because god knows in this day and age men have to be sensitive, and politcal correct and god forbid they give a woman a compliment or whistle at her. but in SHOWS -yes i want my HERO in the show to be badass/kickass/hardass most of the time. Not whishy washy whenever an angel comes around. Not praying to an angel that in a couple episode earlier was warding him off because he didn’t trust cas. talking to his mothers picture about his brother-more hero like to me. no- i don’t want dean to be balless-a real hero (that i have seen in movies and in books that I LIKE) would take the bulls by the reigns and say “no i am not going to accept what is happening to my brother. damn it i am going to do what it takes to get this job done and get him thru it”. period tigerlilly-yea thats what i want. i don’t want innuendos that maybe just maybe he is bi/gay -he didn’t start out that way there is no reason to make his character even SEEM TO BE that way. but spn writers want to make a certain group of fans happy so they throw the innuendo in there. and whenever cas is in the scene with dean-misha plays feminine imo. and dean always gets weak kneed when cas is around. It still burns me every time i think of the scene where dean is practically pleading with cas that he didn’t leave him in purgatory. that was the beginning of the end for me. well that and other crap. dean not having an arc and not getting the trials was more so. there-does that answer your accusations.
Comment by animal — March 1, 2013 @ 3:51 am
Wow @animal good for your comments and I agree with you and sadly feel your pain and yes DESTIEL is being done to make a few voicetrous fangirls happy. Singer too is the biggest shipper of Dean and his love for his angel.
Comment by ozzie — March 1, 2013 @ 4:10 am
@animal - I wasn’t trying ti insult you. And your post was a good answer. I have a better sense of where you are coming from now.
Comment by t1gerlilly — March 1, 2013 @ 5:32 am
I absolutely do not see Dean this way at all. A guy can be kick ass hero and still be worried about his own brother. He still can be sensitive, compassionate and caring. That is a mark of a true hero. Not a robot without any regards to anyone. Of course he’s going to pray to Cas (where has god been in all this mess? Absent!). There is no destiel shipping going here. Man, I feel bad for any guy who has a close relationship with another man because he’s going to be accused of being gay! It doesn’t bother me when they have guys hit on Dean (it’s funny, because Dean’s reaction is what the hell?). Who wouldn’t hit on Dean? Dean does not flirt back, he is really perplexed. Dean does not get weak kneed or give Cas googly eyes or whatever. And to say Cas is feminine while around Dean? Never going to see it that way. I’m not wearing destiel glasses ever. If Dean butts in with Sam then people cry foul that he’s being too pushy and won’t let Sam grow up, but if he’s worried, gives Sam room to make decisions, Deans a wuss. Gee. He can’t make any right moves. Never has been Destiel on SPN and never will.
Comment by twinster — March 1, 2013 @ 5:41 am
I believe the reason there is even a discussion going on about who is a wuss and who is a hero is because there is no honesty in the storytelling these days.
Sam was shown as a complete a**, an incompetent hunter making a lot of stupid rookie mistakes, a reluctant hero who because, we were told, was head over heels in love with a bitchy vet as an explanation for dumping his brother, Kevin, Meg, and Martin, and resenting the hell out of Dean for being alive and back. Yet, on-screen, I don’t believe one fan saw that deep ‘tru wuv’ that Sam supposedly have felt.
Dean was shown as having come back from Purgatory as a strong and confident hunter who had a new sense of clarity about hunting.
Then, all of a sudden, without any explanations given, Dean mends all the fences between the brothers and Sam is handed the MoLs legacy and the trials. Sam declares Dean is a genius and the best hunter on the planet and the very next episode, Dean is lobotomized, fails at hunting, and is now the stupid, confused hunter that has trouble keeping up on even widely-known Greek lore. Meanwhile, Dean prays to an angel; an angel who quite deeply betrayed and ridiculed him, nearly killed Sam the last time he was supposedly helping them, saw him again kill a fellow angel again, and warded against him the last time they had contact. All of this, again, just shown without any explanation to the viewers as to how they Dean went from suspicion to praying to the SOB came about.
What the viewers are supposed to be doing, and a good many of them are, are jumping for joy that the mythical brotherhood is restored and the boys are working ‘together’ — well, except for the not so big deal that Sam is suffering from “trialburculous’, but he’s keeping that a secret because it may worry Dean, but Dean already knows Sam is “hurting” and he isn’t mad or hurt about that, so he calls on his really trustworthy angel buddy to protect Sam, because he’s just not the man to do the job as it turns out. I suppose it makes sense that LobotomizedDean would have no other recourse than to seek help.
This is not honest storytelling — it’s pulling something out of a writer’s butt and spoon-feeding it to the fans.
It’s also not emotionally honest storytelling, because there has been nothing shown this season as to a reason the brothers aren’t running as far away from each other as they can possibly get. This is not an honest and emotional ‘the Winchesters would die for each other’ story, because what’s been shown is a very toxic relationship that make Dean look like an emotionally weak fool and Sam as a spoiled brat who got his way.
Neither brother has done one single thing that is heroic this season. We’ve had a season of humans hooked up with supernatural beings, most who have lived to tell another story (probably in S9 and S10). We’ve had reluctant civilians step up to be heroes and assume their responsibility to do good things now that they know about the supernatural. We’ve had the Winchesters flipping between being stupid and being jerks to just this week, sitting on their a**es in their nice new digs waiting — yes, waiting — for Kevin to come up with something they can work on. I guess all the monsters in the world are taking vacations at the moment, so there are no simple little hunts or people to be saved out there. Why not enjoy the shower pressure, the top brand scotch, and do a little reading while things are on hold?
The writers are fan pandering and, unfortunately, it seems that most fans are swallowing that hook, line and sinker. As long as fans accept this kind of garbage, why should the writers put forth any effort to make a story coherent — or even come up with a good story to begin with. As long as “the brothers are together — hurray”, there’s no reason to think up excuses for either brothers’ actions that make sense and there’s no reason to have any kind of consistency in characterization or story.
The end product is it just leaves fans confused and bickering between at each other, and I’d say the writers have done a very good job of invoking that in the name of ’show buzz.’ It’s worked out quite well.
Comment by Sheri — March 1, 2013 @ 5:47 am
Good to see so many fans of Dean here. He doesn’t always get the good end of the stick on this site. I guess we all just see him differently- and yet still love him.
For me he is no less a man because he asks for help and worries about his brother (the REAL one, not the ass that is there now) and cares about his friends. Actually that makes him more of a man to me.
But I do agree that in several scenes when Dean and Cas have been together Dean takes the lesser role and I do not like that. Some of the lines that have been written between the two of them have been crap- but what do you expect from lousy writers as the ones that have been on the show the last few seasons?
But for me, Cas is Dean’s friend. One he cares about and likes and- to an extent- depends on. Just like depends on Sam and he depended on Bobby. There is nothing sexual in those relations but there is love- love of a brother, love of a Father-figure, love of a friend.
My husband is Very close with his brother and always has been. They trust each other and love each other and care about each other. That is a beautiful thing- not a “gay” thing.
So we all see different things in Dean but the most important thing is we all like him and care about him and don’t like when he is being treated like crap- by anyone.
Comment by SL — March 1, 2013 @ 5:49 am
Good. That was enough wussyfooting around,
Comment by t1gerlilly — March 1, 2013 @ 5:57 am
woosyfooting around, LOL! You just crack me up, t1gerlilly!
I’ve gotten to the point that I am skimming or skipping the the threads that are so negative with out anything positive to say about the show, or characters. Nothing wrong with pointing out some of the bad or whatever, but to find nothing positive about the show? It just depresses me to read such posts. I love the show, still find lots of good about it (the good outweigh the bad)and will continue to watch and enjoy. The only episode that I could not stand was Bitten and the only good part of that ep was Dean and Sam. I’m going to miss watching the show for the next 3 week. Sigh.
Comment by twinster — March 1, 2013 @ 8:32 am
And to Haley56, I love your description of Dean being a 3 dimensional character and not a cardboard cut out! So true! That is why I love Dean so much! Without the gentle, sensitive, compassionate guy that he can be he wouldn’t be a very interesting hero. I think his friendship with Cas is more like a brotherhood type of relationship.
Comment by twinster — March 1, 2013 @ 8:38 am
#77 Well said, twinster.
Comment by inky — March 1, 2013 @ 10:07 am
@77 twinster
I agree with your post, and have been doing the same thing. Very well said.
Comment by Jose — March 1, 2013 @ 10:37 am
Does anyone else wish Prometheus had lived so he could show up again, instead of Cas?
Comment by mj — March 1, 2013 @ 5:33 pm
I will say that I really liked Promethius’s character and wished he hadn’t died, but I don’t want him to replace Cas because I enjoy Cas’s character. I don’t want Cas to take control of the rest of the season, just hoping he’s a support character.
Comment by twinster — March 1, 2013 @ 6:14 pm
Oh, in case anyone forgot: HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO JENSEN! I hope he had a wonderful birthday today!
Comment by twinster — March 1, 2013 @ 6:21 pm
Jensen is the sexiest thing to ever grace CW!!!!
Comment by hw — March 3, 2013 @ 9:01 am
Since when does a man showing love for his little brother make him a wuss? If Dean was always a hard ass, never showing any vunerability or emotion, I wouldn’t love him as much as I do, nor would I find him as interesting.
You mean that even here, in 2013 when we’ve supposedly dismissed these silly Alpha Male notions of what is and what isn’t ‘manly’ behavior,a man is STILL judged as not being man enough if he dares to show any tenderness?
I just realized I don’t give my husband enough credit. He’s a strong, tough Long Islander who nobody would ever consider a wuss, yet, he does indeed show tenderness, love, and emotional vunerability, without being insecure in his manhood. I’m very glad to see Dean still being the loving concerned big brother. Although yes, I too am missing the Sam of old who, for the most part, also showed his love and concern for his big brother, but I guess Dean is also like a father to Sam. And we who are parents understand that it doesn’t matter what our children do to us or how badly they may hurt us, we will still forgive them anything and love them unconditionally. Even when they hurt us terribly or piss us off tremendously, and they very often do.
Comment by roxi — March 3, 2013 @ 9:56 am
Very well said, roxi!!
Comment by twinster — March 3, 2013 @ 12:11 pm
right -dismissing the Alpha Male notions have done wonders for our society right. a kid in preschool gets suspended because his POP TART kinda looks like a gun and he pretends to shoot it. Yea-thats healthy for that kid right??/ and a first grade boy “kisses” a little girl on the cheek and oops he’s suspended as well. Oh and how about the guy who whistled at the pretty girl-she is sueing him. yea- and how about the guy who opened the door for a woman and she snapped at him him- “i could get it”. yea our society is sooooo much better now that we have feminized our guys. It makes me sick. the mental scars on our little boys because god forbid they actually act like little boys.
Roxi-i don’t know if you were addressing me or not-but if you were- I NEVER DEAN WAS A WUSS BEACAUSE HE LOVES HIS BROTHER. I said the CHARACTER of dean is written like a wuss when dean is with cas. and i gave an example. And NO-a hero would not boo hoo all the time like they write dean. I have heard that jensen rewrote that prayer-refining it. how much do you want to bet its because it was too wussy for jensen to say. so he manned it up some.He has done that before-like when he gave cas the trenchcoat-jensen had to man it up some by rewriting it. I hope it comes up in the las vegas con.
Comment by animal — March 3, 2013 @ 1:18 pm
thats - I NEVER SAID-man this keyboard sometimes.
Comment by animal — March 3, 2013 @ 1:20 pm
roxi you are speaking as a woman in reguards to men being tender, and soft and emotionally vulnarable. men look at guys that are that and laugh. I want my TV HEROS to be a leader, tough, and take charge with a side of emotional tenderness when hit with something tragic. but not ALL THE TIME.and not boo hooing all the time. but whatever. you like what you like-i like what i like.
Comment by animal — March 3, 2013 @ 1:28 pm
both jensen and jared manned up the conversation between them -can’t remember which season it was-maybe be 6 or s7- the amy thing -was she 6 or s7?? can’t remember-but they both said the original way it was written was like two women arguing or a man and a girlfriend having a fight. with one of them leaving. so obviously i am NOT the only one who sees the feminizing of dean in supernatural. J2 see it as well.
Comment by animal — March 3, 2013 @ 1:32 pm
Roxi-here let me give you an example of letting men be men and knowing who and what men are. ever see “say yes to the dress”?? two scenerios for you! first bride-she is going to marry a football player- he is paying for the dress-when asked how much she wants to spend on a dress she says -whatever I WANT. he is paying for it.
second bride-she and her fiance’ want to buy a farm. she loves horses. he is paying for her dress. when asked how much she wants to spend she says $2500.00 is the budget. She falls in love with a dress that cost $3500.00. Her family that is with her love it as well. they ask her if she wants the dress-she says i have to call my fiance’. when she gets him on the phone she tells him she fell in love with this dress that is $1000.00 more than what they budgeted. the fiance’ asks her -”do you really really love this dress?” -she says”yes i do.” -he tells her to get it because it makes HER happy and she get what she wants for HER wedding. She let her fiance’ be the man of the house. the alpha man -
now which marriage do you think is going to make it??? the football marriage or the farmers??? which woman understands what her man needs??? the farming couple roxi is going to make it. not the football one.
Comment by animal — March 3, 2013 @ 2:14 pm
Roxi-here let me give you an example of letting men be men and knowing who and what men are. ever see “say yes to the dress”?? two scenerios for you! first bride-she is going to marry a football player- he is paying for the dress-when asked how much she wants to spend on a dress she says -whatever I WANT. he is paying for it.
second bride-she and her fiance’ want to buy a farm. she loves horses. he is paying for her dress. when asked how much she wants to spend she says $2500.00 is the budget. She falls in love with a dress that cost $3500.00. Her family that is with her love it as well. they ask her if she wants the dress-she says i have to call my fiance’. when she gets him on the phone she tells him she fell in love with this dress that is $1000.00 more than what they budgeted. the fiance’ asks her -”do you really really love this dress?” -she says”yes i do.” -he tells her to get it because it makes HER happy and she get what she wants for HER wedding. She let her fiance’ be the man of the house. the alpha man -
now which marriage do you think is going to make it??? the football marriage or the farmers??? which woman understands what her man needs??? the farming couple, roxi is going to make it. not the football one.
Comment by animal — March 3, 2013 @ 2:14 pm
sorry double post- oh well.
Comment by animal — March 3, 2013 @ 2:15 pm
Animal, I don’t understand what you are saying. How does any of that pertain to Dean being concerned about his brother? I
m sorry, I still don’t think it makes Dean a wuss or less of a man to show love and concern for Sam.
Comment by roxi — March 4, 2013 @ 5:16 am
Animal, I agree with you that these zero tolerance laws and rules are enforced without any common sense. I think some of these teachers should have their asses kicked for putting these innocent children through such awful crap over obviously harmless things like a toy or sweetly giving a favorite teacher a kiss. If ever my daughter had had something like that happen to her I’d have raised all kinds of hell.
But I still don’t see what that, or your wedding dress scenario, has to do with what we’re discussing with Dean.
To me, Dean IS tough and strong. Just him sometimes showing his vunerability about people he loves, like family or close friends doesn’t change that. Not to me anyway. And I don’t see where Dean is boo hooing all the time, as you say.
Comment by roxi — March 4, 2013 @ 5:26 am
Sorry, I wrote the one post before I had read all of your previous one.
Comment by roxi — March 4, 2013 @ 5:27 am
A little late, but my two cents is that it was an acceptable episode. A Death-A-Day was at least a novel idea. John Reardon as Prometheus scored with me and Brook Langton as Haley did a fine job with a character whose story was hard to believe. Enjoyed the scene with J2 up against the wall, literally, in which Sam’s little hail-Mary speech goaded Aretmis into jealously. Dean is usually the one who takes big chances in action sequences and Sam has to go with what Dean’s doing and simply trust and hope for a good ending; Jensen’s reaction of suddenly being in Sam’s movie was wonderfully played. Too much a life-long fan of Greek mythology not to wince at killing off Zeus in a 10minute sequence, but it is TV, and I assume a young audience isn’t exactly all that familiar with Greek mythology. I am ready now to get on with a seasonal arc.
animal–keep up the battle. Jensen does seem to realize his character is being used to titillate the slash-fiction crowd and tries to keeping it from going too far.
Sheri–Totally understand where you are coming from. Separate the guys and have them feuding (keep the Samgirls v. Deangirls feuding); put them together (please the brotherly bond crowd); hint at Dean-Castiel “special” relationship (keep those Dean/Cas authors filling up Live Journals), and throw in something that can be called an arc—-that’s the formula. It’s also got a fanbase who’d love to see it a standard soap opera and another audience who want an action-adventure series. Carver seems to know the series has very different audiences and in a way that is good and has resulted in lively and contentious on-line debate that has produced a fanatical fan base. He is not going to neglect any part of its audience. Dean is the central character and he has to serve all those interests so there is absolutely no continuity to his character. He is action-adventure macho hero, sensitive feminized soap male, slash-fiction partner of Castiel, pissed at lousy brother Sam, and completely devoted to the point of dying for his cherish wonderful brother–all of them, and a combination of many of these characters, in some individual episodes. I’m afraid we are simply going to have to enjoy having Jensen to admire as an actor in the series; his character cannot serve so many different audiences and have any consistent characterization.
Dean prays to his angel? There was in the first seasons a subtheme of Sam’s faith in God. It was seriously treated issue of faith challenged by a knowledge of evil. One IMO of the most serious themes in SPN. And, it involved Dean as well since he did not share his brother’s faith, but clearly admired it and did not want to see it shattered. Now, we have one of the brothers praying to an all-too-fictional character who has been a mass murderer, provider of hippy-dippy comic relief, deliverer of occasional butt jokes, and giver of loving looks to Dean. Replacing God with Castiel is the ultimate CWization. Sad, even for CW. Just my opinion.
Comment by CaseyT — March 4, 2013 @ 7:01 am
CaseyT, I understand what you mean but Dean did pray to god in season 5.. and after that it has been made clear that god was `gone` and not able to help them anymore (Joshua told them that), so I get that dean is `praying` to Castiel.
Comment by Robin — March 4, 2013 @ 7:19 am
The thing I find amusing about both your scenarios, Animal, if you’ll forgive me, is that neither of them actually involves men. The first involves children and teachers - and I’m guessing you’re assuming the teachers aren’t men. If they were, your anecdote would be very confusing to parse.
And the second involves a bride and her family - and only in one case does the fiance enter the picture. Plus, I’m not sure how being able to budget together and being considerate of your partner, especially when they’re paying for something, translates into making him the alpha male. That just seems like basic decency.
I kind of wonder if your day to day life involves a lot of men, other than your husband. Personally, I work with almost all men and have for more than fifteen years. I also wonder if you’ve ever worked with any ‘badasses’. I’ve done that too, if briefly.
I like guys. I work well with them. I love their energy, their directness, and their ability to take goodnatured teasing. Guys have a pecking order. They test each other. They expect a certain level of toughness. But the most macho guy is almost never the one in charge. Never the most aggressive. Never the one with the most testosterone. And when they are - it doesn’t end well.
If you read about alpha males - they aren’t alpha without a mate, almost by definition. Which means their testosterone is lowered. Older, steady men that are trusted are the ones who are leaders. Men capable of attachment, compassion, and wisdom.
I think you’ve articulated your personal ideal of the masculine principle - not something that can be embodied in an actual person. That’s fine. It’s totally unrealistic, and in my opinion misses the richness and variety of human experience that is so amazing in many men. But we all have our fantasies and ideals - we just differ in this.
Comment by t1gerlilly — March 4, 2013 @ 10:46 am
One can only hope that the day will come that the men (or women) in charge are those capable of attachment, compassion, and wisdom. That is a wonderful ideal but it is totally unrealistic. I wish it weren’t, but such a view completely ignores most of human experience. Nice fantasy.
Comment by CaseyT — March 4, 2013 @ 11:32 am
@Casey - I didn’t say it always happened. Just that if you read about alpha males, it turns out that the commonly-understood description of them is way off. Read anything by Frans B. M. de Waal, who studies primate interactions and social anthropology, with the aim of using science to build an evidence-based picture of human interactions as they are influenced by our biology. Or read about wolf packs, which is the animal for which the term “alpha male” was originally coined, I believe - and you’ll see the same thing. It’s not usually the youngest, most masculine, most powerful guy who ends up in power. It’s more like the idea of “Dad”. An alpha male is like a Dad in a family. Which pretty much requires a certain degree of wussiness, as animal defines it. Otherwise you end up with John Winchester, which I think we all agree sucked majorly in the dad department.
I know you don’t like long discussions, so I’ll cut this short and just ask - how do you see masculinity and power intersect?
Comment by t1gerlilly — March 4, 2013 @ 12:52 pm
@Casey
Comment by t1gerlilly — March 4, 2013 @ 2:00 pm
@Casey - oh, and nice burn on the comment. You’re right I probably shouldn’t have used the word ‘unrealistic’. It was what I was thinking, and I tried to acknowledge that in so far as I have an ideal of masculinity - that’s also just an ideal and probably just as unrealistic as anyone else’s. But it did kind of come out sounding like I thought I knew better than animal. Which I don’t. I just think differently. Very elegantly done on the burn though. And it did get me to think.
Comment by t1gerlilly — March 4, 2013 @ 2:05 pm
roxi- my comments were to your alpha male comment not dean.
tigerlilly-the teacher and the bride comments had to do with feminizing our men in our society.
I watch on youtube differant reviews of this last episode. all of them from guys-just to see what they say. they agree with me. dean praying to sam was a misplaced, fan feeding scene. most of them thought it was stupid. so there ya go. i also just saw the new preview/promo of the next new episode. guess what? cas punches (maybe knocks out) dean. yea good -dean is so imcompetent that he can’t stop cas from landing a punch??? i am sure dean will pray to him again. after all-cas has only killed how many humans, angels, and almost killed his brother-but hey-gotta have the dean/cas lovin. really??? so glad i ain’t watchin. i will let you guys fill me in on what really happens.
Comment by animal — March 4, 2013 @ 2:25 pm
thats praying to cas -(not sam) although that would have been interesting. and i have read on some of the blogs that they think sam will be an angel next season. both sam and cas at the end of this season will be “dead” so to speak-and that sam becomes an angel. and cas becomes human. so the spn world turns. oh and i guess amelia being pregnant is another biggy.!!
Comment by animal — March 4, 2013 @ 2:28 pm
tigerlilly-ummmmm not with lions- the alpha male sends out his females to get food. they bring back the food and they have to leave it for him. then when he is done-then they can eat. i would say that is alpha to the maximum. i beleive the panthers, cheetahs, cougars ect.. are the same way. in fact i am pretty sure. the females have to keep the males away from the young-because they will kill them. just sayin.
Comment by animal — March 4, 2013 @ 2:33 pm
If Cas becomes human, what happens to Jimmy? That’s not Cas’s body. He couldn’t inhibit it anymore if he is not an angel. Details, details.
Comment by jace — March 4, 2013 @ 3:37 pm
@jace-i know right?? but since when does logic ever come into play with spn writers??? but however in reguards to jimmy-he is dead-so why couldn’t cas be cas in jimmy’s body-never mind -i really don’t care anyway-sorry.
Comment by animal — March 4, 2013 @ 4:08 pm
t1gerlilly–Appreciate the burn response; it was a bit snarky. Your posts are usually well reasoned. Probably difficult to believe, but I mostly enjoy reading your posts. You obviously bring a gender studies perspective to the discussion. I’d guess, don’t know, that you are a committed feminist and that informs the discussion. (That is not a put down; I share much of that perspective, but I don’t seek confirmation for it in SPN.) The issue I have is that SPN is a place I go to escape academic work. It is simply good fun and entertainment to me. IMO SPN doesn’t offer any real evidence about such serious issues as the definition of masculinity or the nature of personal power relationships. Seasons 1-3 there was enough consistency to make it possibly a subject of worthy of inquiry into Krepki’s depiction of masculinity and sibling relationships, after that it has been inconsistent about the characterization of its two male leads and moved more and more into the category of Charmed, Tough By an Angel, or Bewitched to tap the old and time-tested audience of an angel or witches, some supernatural figure/s, amid humans. Nothing new or original about that. (I’d argue that if you wanted to explore that genre seriously, Bewitched did it much better 50 years ago.)
There are places that engage in what is advertized as a serious academic forum which includes SPN issues; the American Popular Culture Association’s regional and national conventions are probably the most active. Been there, listened to that. Most of them are unabashed testaments to the faults of deductive logic: I have a personal view or believe in a theory and surprise, surprise my “research” (having selected only conformational evidence and ignored the contrary) has found total confirmation for my thoughts and theories in the TV series SPN. Larson and Zubernis do publish some interesting stuff on SPN, but it is mostly about the fandom, which I think is a much better academic topic for inquiry than the series itself. Most of the SPN posters are wonderfully free of academic jargon; it is refreshing to read honest commentary which has not been carefully run through some politically correct or an anthropological filter. If I were going to explore a feminist issue, I’d suggest commentary on SPN sites which is unfiltered and largely female, across class and age lines, might well tell us something about what women are thinking about gender issues. To me however SPN is entertaining commercial TV when it is an action-adventure series about two brothers and I’m going to leave it in that category.
Comment by CaseyT — March 5, 2013 @ 8:56 am
@animal - I tried to find reviews of 8×16 on YouTube and couldn’t find any. Can you post some links. I’m interested.
Comment by t1gerlilly — March 5, 2013 @ 9:53 am
I’ve just been lurking and reading this conversation, but I must ask what makes Dean a “wussy” to some people? If I had to think of a word to describe Dean, “wussy” is the LAST thing that would come to mind.
Just curious.
Comment by Lisa1 — March 5, 2013 @ 2:08 pm
@casey -
Mae West - “Marriage is a fine institution, but I’m not ready for an institution.”
Me - “Feminism is a fine thing, but I’m not ready to be committed.”
Actually, the one time I joined a feminist group, in high school, I got thrown out for asking inconvenient questions. Like when a friend of mine took me to Christ Church, or when my mom had me take confirmation class…. Questions can really get you in a lot of trouble.
Anyway, all the feminists I know are old married ladies, like my mom. If I’m going to be anything, it would probably have to be a femi-nazi slut, since then I’ll be ready to testify before congress. Plus femi-nazi slut sounds like a supercute nail color that would go great with a pair of killer heels.
(That last paragraph was a joke - for those of you suffering from sarcasm-blindness - sorry, but these days you can’t be too sure).
Comment by t1gerlilly — March 5, 2013 @ 3:23 pm
@107jace and @108animal
Regarding Jimmy. I think that when Cass was killed the first time (was that when Lucifer killed him, I think?) Jimmy was sent to heaven. The vessel was then reconstructed so Cass could have one, but Jimmy was left in heaven? That’s what I think happened. Any other ideas?
Comment by Jose — March 5, 2013 @ 7:12 pm
Jose, In The Rapture, Jimmy would have gone to heaven since he was mortally wounded but Jimmy begged to be Cas’s vessel to spare Claire. Seems like he won’t ever die until as long as he is Cas’s vessel. But lots of things have happened to Cas since then so who knows what they would come up with?
CASTIEL
Of course we keep our promises. Of course you have our gratitude. You served us well. Your work is done. It’s time to go home now. Your real home. You’ll rest forever in the fields of the Lord. Rest now, Jimmy.
JIMMY
No. Claire?
CASTIEL
She’s with me now. She’s chosen. It’s in her blood, as it was in yours.
JIMMY
Please, Castiel. Me, just take me. Take me, please.
CASTIEL
I wanna make sure you understand. You won’t die or age. If this last year was painful for you, picture a hundred, a thousand more like it.
Comment by jace — March 6, 2013 @ 7:08 am
jace @114 Yes jace the event you relaid so well was in the rapture which was before Cas was killed. There is no reason to assume that when he was resurrected Jimmy was as well. There would be no need to pull him out of heaven. If a demon can occupy a soulless, brain dead, body why not an Angel?
Comment by Haley 56 — March 6, 2013 @ 8:57 am
You know I think we had this discussion before. The writers will do what they want, but the difference btw angel possession and demon possession is consent. Can an angel possess a dead body? Otherwise why didn’t Lucifer and/or Michael kill the Winchesters and possess their dead bodies? Of course, it could be argued that Cas had prior consent before he and Jimmy died. Who knows? I just enjoy speculating. I am not arguing for or against and actually for Jimmy sake, I really hope that he is in heaven.
Comment by jace — March 6, 2013 @ 2:58 pm
Also, would a dead body be considered too unclean or vile for an inhabitant of heaven to possess? They are all about the holiness or the show anyway. Inquiring minds want to know.
Comment by jace — March 6, 2013 @ 3:13 pm
Jace - whoever put Castiel back together after Raphael smote him into tiny gobbets of flesh and then Lucifer did the same clearly built a body for Cas from the ground uo, the same way Cas did for Dean when he brought him back from hell. That new body never belonged to anyone but Cas and when it dies God (or whoever) just makes another.
Comment by t1gerlilly — March 6, 2013 @ 11:08 pm
It’s like with Anna. She said she liked the body she had before and reused a newer version of it after she got her grace back. I liken it to cloning. They have a body they like and they just recreate one like it.
Comment by Aislinn — March 7, 2013 @ 9:46 am
Then why would they have resurrected Adam instead of just creating a new one. Angels need a living vessel and yes Jimmie is still in there. So was Anna.
Comment by AW — March 7, 2013 @ 10:00 am
@aw the whole point of Adam showing up was to convince dean to be michaels vessel. They never wanted Adam as the vessel. Aside from which - resurrection in the bible is supposed to apply to your body as it was at death. Think judgement day with zombies. Adam was looking a might more spry than that - so the angels probably made him a new body too. I think the whole consent thing is more of an ‘ought to’ than ‘have to’ have consent.
Comment by t1gerlilly — March 7, 2013 @ 4:37 pm
@t1gerlilly They showed cas literally pull Adam from his grave after resurrection the angels heal the body. This has been shown more than once it was the same for dean. not a new different clone. The same body and soul.
Comment by AW — March 8, 2013 @ 4:18 am
Aw - but not for Sam and he got rescued from hell as well.
Comment by t1gerlilly — March 8, 2013 @ 10:59 pm
That’s a particularly odd case, because new body, no soul.
Comment by t1gerlilly — March 8, 2013 @ 11:00 pm
Also, when Anna fell she didn’t take over a vessel - she got reborn as a human. There was never anyone in there but the angel.She just didn’t remember.
Comment by t1gerlilly — March 8, 2013 @ 11:03 pm
Ooh what if Cas got reborn into sam’s love child with Amelia. Ow - that makes my head hurt.
Comment by t1gerlilly — March 8, 2013 @ 11:27 pm
So, i’m not exactly a church goer or anything but on the theory of sam being turned to God : i don’t really think that they will ever show God as a person in supernatural. Maybe he will help again, he surely has before . If you ask me, first time in houses of the holy . Then of course in season five at the end, just that i think,where he was visibly, was not how cas got put back together but in letting sam see the plastic soldier in the impala. I’m not sure of the Prophet vanishing in the end. So Maybe God will help with closing the doors of hell and going through these trials is just a way of proving that humankind even deserves it.
I’m really curious if they will solve everything in the end, after all it’s two seasons left but Then that’s it. I can only hope they won’t leave to many loose ends.
Comment by june — March 9, 2013 @ 11:04 am