Woohoo, looks like another Sam-centric season. Surprised? No. Let down? A little.
I’ll still watch to support the actors, but I was hoping to have something more exciting to look forward to after basic training.
Comment by Thomas A — September 11, 2013 @ 6:47 pm
It fascinates me how you can assume it’s going to be a Sam-centric season based on the promo for the opening episode. I’ve personally never thought the show was centred on one character more than the other (even with Dean’s supposed non-storylines), but hey, we all see the show differently.
Well sheesh, to me and many others the lack of storyline for Dean has not been ‘supposed” but a fact. But having seen this promo and the other one it does really look like maybe this time Dean really will finally have an important and meaty story arc. It looks like all of them will in fact. And seeing Death, it seems clear to me that he was there for Sam, but Dean’s actions stopped it. And it does look like I may be right; it looks like Dean enlisted one of the rogue angels to help him transfer some of his soul energy to Sam. At least I hope that’s the case.
And they brought back Alaina Huffman as Abaddon! I don’t know how they’ll explain her having the same meatsuit but I don’t care. They were smart enough to realize she is awesome and they needed to hang on to her. And do I sense just a smigde of sexual tension between her and Dean? Before anybody gets worked up, I don’t think Dean would ever have sex with her. I’m just saying that although she’s an evil demon I can buy that she may also kind of be attracted to Dean. Like she’d love to have her way with him before ripping him to shreds. I think it’s his sexy green eyes and his snarkiness LOL. I’m getting those vibes from this video and from and episode last season but then again I’m probably just reading way too much into it. Anyway, it sure looks a hell of lot more promising that last season.
Someone brought up the idea that Death himself is there because he wants a deal with Sam,because usually it’s a reaper alone that comes. But then in season 6 both Death and Tessa showed up because it was stated then that Death would first touch you then a reaper would reap you, even though that was never shown before or after that episode. We only saw a reaper come for Bobby. But I can’t imagine why else Death would be waiting for Sam other than to collect him because he’s dying. What special thing could Death possibly want from Sam?What I want to know is what Dean does to save Sam. I am so hoping that he doesn’t channel Bobby into Sam or the angel doesn’t give Sam some of his grace. I’m truly hoping it’s something that directly involves and impacts Dean, otherwise what importance does Dean have in it other than keeping it a big secret? I want it to also be something that helps strengthen the boys’ bond and Dean transferring some of his own lifeforce to Sam would accomplish all of what I hope to see.
And as I am one of the big complainers about what I see as Dean’s lack of important story arcs even I have to say that it looks like this time finally, Dean will indeed have an important season long arc. What I have more of a problem with is Cas. Yes I know his fans are very invested in his story so this is great for them. But for me, I just can’t get into a completely separate story about Cas that doesn’t involve him with the Winchesters. I do like Cas, but for me he is far more interesting when he is interacting with the Winchesters and is profoundly involved in their arc. As for Kevin, I sure hope he continues the character growth he showed so much of last season ( for me one of the few positives of season 8)and doesn’t just end up sitting around the bunker at the Winchester’s back and call.
I predicted Alaina Huffman would return. She was far too good in the role to be replaced.
Regarding how they’ll explain Abadon using the same meat suit, recall that Abadon took her meat suit with her as she smoked-out during the season 8 finale.
Also, fans forget that (1) Meg smoked-out in “Sympathy for the Devil”, and (2) Lilith smoked-out in “The Monster at the End of this Book.” In both cases, the same actress was used in subsequent episodes.
I’m not a Sam hater. When did I ever say I hated Sam? Never. The show needs both brothers to function. I’m merely pointing out that Sam’s problems usually take precedence in the season versus problems of Dean. Or Dean isn’t given any problems (or worse, the same ones, like drinking). His plot was great at the beginning of S8, but then Sam’s problems with his girl took a front seat, Dean got pushed to the back, and then the Angels had the airtime. Last season, all Dean did was bring Benny back so they could kill him at the end to help Sam and Bobby. He didn’t do much with the tablet. He had his random quirky moments, and that was pretty much it. Hell, he didn’t even have a decent stay in Purgatory. Oh well.
Comment by Thomas A — September 12, 2013 @ 2:15 pm
@ Sara – I thought the same thing when I read it. The very first comment. Haha
I should have know that the Sam v. Dean stuff would never die down here.
Onto the clip – I must say that this is first thing that has gotten me excited about the season. This and the 5 minute sneak peek w/Carver and Singer. Prior to those two promos, I had ZERO interest in S9.
After the horror that was S8, I’m still keeping my expectations very low, but I am now excited to watch the premiere. I wasn’t before. It looks like Dean will be entering Sam’s consciousness to encourage him to fight to for his life. That intrigues me. And I’m really happy to see Abbadon again. AH was a jem in an otherwise horrific, bad season, IMO.
OK everyone come down cause Supernatural is not gonna be a Sam centric or Dean centric season but an angel centric season with new and old angels fighting their crappy civil war and Castiel being used to stop it again.
Just remember that SPN will end after season 10 and then Js can go on with their 2nd careers..anything but working on SPN.
Guys, I really don’t see the same complaints some of you are seeing, and everybody knows how much I think Jensen/Dean has been thrown to the sidelines for most of SPN. But this time, I’m actually optimistic. I saw the longer promo, with Carver and Singer talking and with more scenes, and as disappointed as I was in last season, from the video I watched not only did Carver and Singer actually have a lot to say about Dean and it does indeed look like he will finally get an important season long arc, but everybody else also looks like they will get meaty stories; Sam, Cas, Crowley,etc and also they brought Alaina Huffman back as the main baddie. And of course, Death making an appearance always elevates proceedings.
Of course the season could start and I might be wrong. But just judging from the promo I saw, I am really looking forward to the new season.
“Just remember that SPN will end after season 10 and then Js can go on with their 2nd careers..anything but working on SPN.”
On the positive side, that does still give us two full seasons of having ozzie hang around this site like a bad smell, telling us week after week how much SPN now sucks, attempting to ruin it for those of us who still love the show, rather than just walk away and stop being such a whiny loser.
Oh wait, that’s not remotely positive is it! Sorry…
Comment by Bored Now — September 13, 2013 @ 6:03 am
Supernatural could go past 10 seasons.
They signed on for ten seasons but the writers and everybody said they have enough material to go on for more then 10 seasons. And the cw owner really loves the show and he wants the show to keep going.
Anyway, 24 days for season 9 premiere!
And Sam in a hospital bed!
@Bored Now there sure is more than ozzie that is leaving a bad smell, everytime I come and see what fans here think about anything supernatural, I end up frustrated as hell of fan delusions. This time around it’s not so bad. Then again wait past 3 episodes and the forum will crawl with angry fans. Gladly now I’ve discovered a place where fans actually love the series, IGN.
I think ozzie is simply expressing a justified fear. Much of the pre-season commentary seems to be about angels and the resident angel has been made a regular. New monsters seem to have been abondoned in favor of many varieties of angels.
That certainly suggests Collins will be not only front and center but very much a centerpiece of a season about angels.
However, this clip is Sam and Dean with two of the better secondary actors and characters from recent years, so it looks like a good beginning to me and worth watching.
I think Carver knows that Sam and Dean are why the bulk of the audience watches. It doesn’t have the big Arrow lead-in this year, nor is it on Friday when only a small audience will keep it alive. If its primarily that old angel battle, which is now years old, and Castiel fish-out-of-water jokes, equally old, with Ackles and Padalecki only featured enough to justify calling it Supernatural, 9, not 10, will be its last season.
Damn, I DO love the series! LOL
There hasn’t been that many complaints yet. A lot of regular posters right here feel that I myself am one of the biggest whiners (guilty) and even I am saying that from what I’ve seen of these promos I am quite optimistic about the new season. Look, there were a lot of fans, myself included, who thought Jeremy Carver almost wrecked SPN last year. But that was his rookie season as a showrunner, so maybe he just needed to work out the kinks. All I know is the long promo, which wasn’t shown here, showed both Sam and Dean being important, actually had Carver and Singer not only remember Dean’s name but state how important his arc was, (yea!)showed Cas and Crowley having major arcs, brought back Abaddon the awesomely evil,(great choice of SPN to pick a smokin hot snarky redhead as the main baddass knight of Hell!) and of course Death, to me the most magnificent of all their recurring guest stars. It’s kinda like Carver realized his mistakes(as well as got sick of hearing about them from us crazy whiny fans) and took steps to correct them. At least this is what I’m hoping. So let’s all wait and see before we start cutting up the new season. And those of you who are familiar with me know that if this comes from ME, it should mean something LOL.
I didn’t hear much about Kevin though. It’s clear that Kevin is now a defacto part of their family, as he is living in what is basically their house, so I do hope there is also a good story arc for him. Osric Chau, I thought, did such a wonderful job developing Kevin from the frightened overwhelmed kid we first met at the end of season 7 to the young man who learned so much about how to outsmart demons and who matured and accepted his fate and even embraced it, who got all cocky and baddass with Crowley. I hope he doesn’t just become a tool for the Winchesters, sitting around in their bunker obeying their requests. I hope he continues his own journey and does some heroic things of his own.
First off, totally LOVE the color of Alaina Huffman’s hair. So wish I could pull it off but alas, only certain special women can, of which I am not one.
Second, I have a theory about why they are bringing angels back. Be patient and follow me here. I think Carver is trying to bring us back to the Apocalypse.
Now I know that Eric Kripke was supposed to end SPN with the season 5 finale. But it went on so……
For me, that story never seemed finished. I don’t care if Sam drank a wagonload of demon blood, and I don’t care if Dean’s brother love was strong as methriel, or an anvil, the Winchesters are STILL HUMANS. Your’e trying to tell me that these particular humans were able to stop the will of Heaven, which had been decided and foretold since the fall of Lucifer? And remember, both Michael in young John and Sammifer told Dean that it didn’t matter what he or Sam did or changed; they would ALWAYS end up, in Stull Cemetary, in Detroit. No matter what.
You could say insane Godstiel Cas killed all of Raphael’s followers. But that’s not to say that some of these fallen, misplaced angels might be angry and decide they want to free Michael and Lucifer and get their revenge by getting the Apocalyspe back on NOW. And Cas is human now, just like in “The End”. Who’s to say Abaddon may not be the one who uses the Croatoan virus? And whos’ to say some of these angry,vengeful angels might now participate?
There’s got to be other fans who have thought this. I’d love to hear everyone else’s thoughts on this. I can’t possibly be the only one.
“I think ozzie is simply expressing a justified fear…”
The problem is though that ozzie has been expressing that ‘justified fear’ for years now, threatening to quit watching and yet never going away. I say put up or shut up. I have no issue with people not liking the way that the show had changed from being extremely Dean and Sam centric to the larger ensemble cast taking away their spotlight. If you watched only for Dean and Sam that is certainly going to spoil the show for you. But a lot of people actually like how it has evolved. In fact I’d say that SPN’s continued ratings success is down to the fact that is has changed as a show. You really think you can do ten seasons based purely on two brothers killing monsters? Not to mention I can only imagine that the two Js are more than happy to share the workload after so many seasons.
So yes, in response to ozzie’s issues with SPN, the show has changed and yes, not everyone is going to like it, but if after several seasons of complaining the best you can now offer in a fan site comment is the hope that Jensen and Jared will soon move on to other projects, then you’re in the wrong place, surely? Move on and let those that still love the show enjoy discussing it.
Comment by Bored Now — September 14, 2013 @ 5:05 am
Nice theory, and one I’d like to see play out. I definitely think that there’s a need to give more closure to the Apocalypse. Not so much to have it actually happen (because how would that even work in the sense of the good guys winning) but in having it play out in a fashion that allows for a sense of one side being victorious, on paper if nothing else. Up to this point it’s kinda just like it didn’t happen and given how massive the build up was, the story feels incomplete.
And give the hair colour a try anyway. You won’t know if it works for you unless you do!
Comment by Bored Now — September 14, 2013 @ 5:12 am
Thank You Casey for not thinking I’am such a bad smell.
And @Bored Now ..believe me since Iam not watching season 9 …because I refuse since EK departed to be disappointed again by Carver like Gambles let me down in seasons 6 & 7 ..I won’t be commenting on anything about season 9…so after this my blogging will be terminated because in fairness to others I can’t comment on what I won’t be seeing.
and excuse me for wanting the Js to continue with other CAREER choices ..but unlike many SPN Fans I have been a fan of the Js b4 they got their gigs on SPN.
I first saw @jarpad on GG at the WB and Jensen on SMALLVILLE..so I see SPN as step 2 in their careers and can’t wait for the Js to close their SPN chapter in their lives to see them grow and make movies.
Jensen has stated that he wants to DIRECT OTHER TV SHOWS and Jared wants to do movies…because after 5 seasons on GG and going on 9 with SPN he no longer wants to do another long tv series…he words not mines.
I’ve no problem with you being a fan of Jared and Jensen outside of SPN. I was too. I first saw Jensen in the extremely underrated Dark Angel so I’m all for supporting the actors rather than simply one character they play.
My point, as I said above, is that this is an SPN fan site, and whilst you can of course be a fan of both the actors and the show, you at least need to like the show if you’re going to comment here. It’s unfair to continuously voice your disapproval of a show at the very site where fans want to cheer it. I used to be a big Leverage fan but by season three I thought the plots were getting absolutely ludicrous so I stopped watching, stopped visiting the fan sites and left the remaining fans alone to enjoy what they were watching.
If you are honestly doing just that from now on and not commenting here anymore then good for you. It’s a complete waste of your time to do anything in life you don’t enjoy when you don’t have to. You can no doubt find a lot more fulfilling things to do with your time than waste it on a show you don’t like anymore, and I mean that sincerely.
Comment by Bored Now — September 14, 2013 @ 6:00 am
Exactly and I agree…Good Luck and hope season 9 is a good season…if I read great things about 9 from other fans and SPN web sites then I will buy season 9′s DVD BOX in September of 2014 when it comes out…I own seasons 1,2,3,4,5 & 6 BUT have yet to buy seasons 7 & 8…not a fan of those 2 last seasons.
Love the idea of Dean giving some of his life force to save Sam. Only scared they’ll either make him drink angel grace or some such thing, and turn into something not-human, as he says he ‘keeps changing’. I just can’t imagine what they’re going to comrade up with.
And I like the story going back to the apocalypse. Would be brilliant. Now to only get Mr Carver to listen…
ozzie-don’t let Bored Now chase you off just because your opinion is different and not all rosey for the show. This site has always been for DISCUSSIONS of the show. positive and negative. In fact I would say a site would get boring if it was all postitive all the time. That’s not a discussion its a kiss kiss parade.
I am going to watch the season premiere to see what the so call “secret” is. There are some positives that I have seen -1 Edlund is gone-which I was not a big fan of his toward the end. The canon disaster in reguards to the grand canyon comment was ridiculous on Edlunds part. So I was glad to see him go. 2-Cas is going to be away from the Winchesters with his own story for a while because him being around them is dangerous. That is good news to me. 3-Dean gets some. Its about time and hopefully its the hunter not the crush girl. 4-Dean does seem to get a season long arc for a change. As does everybody else. That’s progress but we know the writers like to drop Deans arcs so we will see. 5-Death is back-My take is that he is not there to reap Sam but to tell Sam about Dean’s secret. I have read that people seem to think Dean gives Sam some of his soul energy and that is what saves Sam. and that it shortens Deans life. I don’t think so because It didn’t shorten Bobby’s when Cas used his soul energy to bring back Sam and Dean. so why would it shorten Deans? I think I read that the secret is something that we as an audience and Sam too have not known about Dean since the beginning. Could it be it turns out he is special in some way after all??? He is human and have gone to supernatural places with his human soul and survived and percevered -so maybe.
Negatives-Angels and Demons again-tired story-and it looks like they are all powerful still so Sam and Dean will need help instead of being the heros and able to fight them on their own again like in season 5-however with the MOL bunker info-maybe they will come up with their own weapons against the angels and demons. 2-Dean feeling guilty again-on a bigger scale is what Singer said.-gawd how many times have we seen that? 3-Whats wrong with Sam -again-The “secret” cure is only a patch per Jensen so here we go again -when will Sam blow up again??? 3-The secret causes a rift between the brothers again-Will Sam walk away again??? hmmmmmm. 4-Cas is an angel –then he’s not then he is -then he is God-now he is human again-talk about fan service/feeding. Just coming up with stories to keep misha/cas around. I stll hate the actor and the character. imo since he has been around the stories have had so many plot holes and childish scenes -the show used to be intelligent not so much now.
Anyway that’s positives and negatives. Like it or not. I won’t be on here either much-won’t be watching spn all season-just certain episodes that I might find interesting. Dean centered- Charlie episodes, Death’s episode, Benny if he comes back- maybe Garth too. Not interested in Crowley, Metatron, Abaddon nor cas. They are angels and demons-I don’t give a rats arse about them. Maybe I will watch the one offs since they tend to be more monster oriented-but to sum it up- I will be very picky on which episodes I will watch this season. I won’t be commenting at all on any of the episodes whether I watch them or not. I strictly am watching for Jensen and Jared. period. But even that will be limited. peace.
I haven’t been commenting, because I haven’t found anything to comment about since the end of S8.
I do find some slim hope in this preview for S9, but I still have more reservations than hope that things will be better in S9 than they have been since S5.
I liked that Dean is being shown as a badass hunter and the repeated comments by Carver that Dean’s decisions will drive the mytharc. That doesn’t mean that Dean will have a mytharc, though, and I am okay with that. I don’t want Dean’s character ruined like Sam’s has been. If he is allowed to be an action hero this season, that will be enough.
And I’ll just say that I don’t see much of a Sam story in this promo or from the spoilers that have come out over the summer break, so I have no clue as to what Sam’s story may be beyond the mysterious illness that is miraculously healed in the first episode….and then what??? My guess is possession by angel, which will make him an action hero, too. I’m okay with that. Anything but another stumbling around ‘what’s wrong with Sam’ story.
I like that Alaina Huffman is back as Abaddon. Don’t know how the writers will manage Abaddon being in the same meatsuit, but I don’t care. I like the actress and I like the character.
What concerns me is Carver’s repeated comments about angels and this being a character-building season. Carver absolutely glows when talking about Cas, Charlie; and to some extent, Crowley, and he has mildly mentioned Kevin.
From these comments, I fear this is going to be another season of support character stories (S7 and S8 both were) while Carver builds an ensemble cast into the show. I don’t like that chosen direction, but Carver already started it last season. I suspect Cas will have the mytharc and not too much of Crowley, since Mark Sheppard is working on two other shows this season. I suspect Kevin become the new Bobby, since DJ Qualls is on another show. If that show fails, we’ll probably get Garth back as Bobby 2.0.
My main concern is that the show’s biggest problem was not addressed — that being inexperienced and less-than-talented writers. Instead of bringing in some experienced writers, the show has hired more writers with zero credentials. This could possibly work, if Carver was a hands-on showrunner, gave up his involvement in Being Human, and paid attention to the scripts he is given…but he’s not and he doesn’t.
So, good promo that allows for a sliver of hope, but I just keep remembering that I had this same feeling when Purgatory was pushed so much last year and that turned out to be nothing.
In regards to Bobby not having his life expectancy shortened by Cas, well you could say that Cas didn’t need to take as much from him because he was an angel, and also Bobby died the next year. We don’t know how long Bobby’s original life expectancy was. For all we know he could have naturally only had about 5 years on the clock and what Cas did shaved time off.
But it doesn’t matter as I now am pretty sure this doesn’t happen anyway. I have seen info on other sites that suggests that yes indeed, Ezekiel possesses Sam. This is a big disappointment for me, I so wanted it to be Dean that heals him, but nope, turns out Dean’s only involvement besides getting the angel to do it is keeping the secret from Sam. Hopefully it will just be long enough for the healing to kick in and not last all season. Although I’m not sure how this can be something we’ve never seen done before, as Singer had said. What was Cas?
I don’t think that the side of Dean Sam didn’t know about has anything to do with anything special about Dean. I think it has to do with a softer, more mushy side brought out by this women he knew as a kid. I’m guessing we’ll see flashbacks (ugh). I just hope they get a blond haired, green eyed kid that actually looks like he could be a young Dean. And I too hope that his little sumthin sumthin will be with the hunter.
I myself like Cas. It’s just to me, his arcs are far more interesting when they are tied in with the Winchesters, and I especially enjoy his bond with Dean. That doesn’t mean his only value or purpose is his bond with Dean, just that I find that more interesting than when he is away from them.
Angel possession disappointment aside, season 9 already looks much better than 8. I do think Sam will have an important arc involving his dedication to the MOL. And Dean will finally have an important arc that, according to the writers, is a season long arc. So I am really looking forward to the season.
Eeeeewwwwww roxi-realyl? Eziekiel possess’s sam?? Oh that really sucks for a story line. So an angel possesses Satans vessel?? OH that goes with canon and makes a whole lotta sense. NOT! Well that goes to show you the writers are just all about angel/demon fantasy and nothing based in truth like spn used to be. I thought the vessel or “possessed” had to say yes in order to be used?. I hope that Eziekiel possessing sam is not the case roxi-because that has a whole lotta plot holes that come with that scenario. Didn’t Jared or somebody say Sam can heal people this season or something like that??? I thought I read that somewhere. So you could be right. Oh that makes me want to watch this season less.
The soul thing with Dean – true we don’t know how long Bobby had to live but there was nothing stated into canon that said using the soul like cas did would shorten Bobby’s life. So throwing that info into the story now would be weak. Something the writers threw in because they needed it to “fit” their story. Not good at all if that is the case. It would be just as bad as the Eziekiel possession imo.
Dean doesn’t have much at his disposal to fix Sam. Since Eziekiel is there and it looks like Dean is dream walking I think Dean makes a deal with Eziekiel-what??? who knows. Maybe to do the angel trials to close heaven -that would piss off Sam because trials mean death so the brothers think anyway. Although I am not so sure Sam finishing the hell trials would have killed him. I am thinking it was a play by naiomi. I mean-look what stopping the hell trials did to Sam. Plus Sam said he was being purified so why would purification mean death if he finished the trials?? Doesn’t make sense to me. although a lot about the angel/demon story doesn’t make sense to me that’s why I don’t like it. I mean if you want to really delve into the writers angel/demon story vision it doesn’t make sense. But if you just watch it to watch it at face value for entertainment than its an ok story.
I hope -for all the spn fans who still enjoy it -that s9 shapes up better than s7 or s8 did for you.
Well just because Dean would give some of his soul energy to Sam doesn’t necessarily mean it would shorten his life, I was just speculating. And I don’t know for sure whether Ezekiel will possess Sam, but that’s what I read on other sites. At least in my scenario, Dean would actually play an integral part in Sam’s healing but I guess that’s not gonna happen. Unless Dean does have to first agree to something for Ezekiel. So Sam’s gonna have healing powers now? Ok I’m just gonna say it; how much more special can they make Sam? Psychic powers? Being part demon? Being the chosen one boy king? The only one able to stop the Apocalypse?The only one able to do the trials? And now, turning into an angel? I know I’m gonna get the tired and wrong accusation of hating Sam thrown at me for saying that. It’s not true. I love Sam. But it’s just getting ridiculous. How long before the writers just say ‘screw it’ and turn Sam into God?
I’d personally find it more refreshing to have Sam finally become fully human.
Again though, this disappointment aside, it still looks like both Sam and Dean will have good story arcs for once. And hopefully whatever tension they do get into will get resolved early. So yeah, I still have a positive feeling about the new season.
Maybe Ezekiel does make Dean agree to something like helping take down Metatron and getting the angels back into Heaven. But I don’t understand what’s keeping them from being able to go back and forth anyway. Don’t angels zip in and out at whim? Cas always did. At least I thought so. Maybe I missed something during all those seasons.
The only thing about the angels that will interest me is if somehow we do end up going back to the Apocalypse/ vessel story. It never did feel finished to me. And although as someone else pointed out, Cas killed all of Raphael’s followers, who’s to say that these displaced angels will not be angry enough to want to free Michael and Lucifer and get the show back on? Maybe what’s happened to them will have changed their minds. And although Carver talks about the angels blaming Cas, I think it could also be true that some of them really blame his involvement and fondness for humanity AKA the Winchesters, for all his screwups, particularly Dean as we saw in season 7, and perhaps they would want revenge on Earth and humanity as a result.
Surprised Sheri didn’t start off ranting about “Jared’s spoiled little white brat” like she did in the other forum. After all bitching about someone’s kid is always justified in a forum that’s mean to congratulate them on the new child. But then I doubt she would want people to be reminded of her vicious. cruel hypocritical piece of shit opinion. WHAT A BITCH SHE IS.
Why would anyone be interested in someone’s comments on a different board about a different subject? This forum is for talking about the sneak peek and S9, so please don’t drag issues from other places in. I like to read other people’s ideas about the show without people’s personal issues/vendettas being thrown in like garbage on top of the dinner table. I can’t imagine anyone appreciates it. Just saying.
Very much agree with Sheri’s #29. Her comment about Jared and Gen’s new pregnancy was extreme and I very much disagree with that comment. But, she has given some of the most insightful comment on this forum for years, and to judge someone by one comment among hundreds, if not thousands, is unfair.
I guess some people want to simply accept anything the writers and producers throw at us and pretend SPN fans should never voice any disapproval of the writing or direction of the series. But, to a huge extent this is our, the viewers, show. If Carver, and some viewers, want a Crowley, Charlie, Castiel, Garth, and Kevin series with various guest stars including the former leads Dean and Sam, that can be done. But that is turning SPN itself into a spin-off of the original series. Just my opinion: it ain’t going to work in the ratings.
Honestly, why is anyone making negative comments about Jared and Gen’s children? We don’t know Thomas. We don’t know if he’s spoiled, and I certainly wouldn’t call the child a brat since I’ve never hung around the kid.
I didn’t read the comment, but I can understand how it could color someone’s view of the poster. It sounds like the comment was extreme and went too far.
Jared is just an actor. He doesn’t write the show and has no influence over the writers. He cannot control the scripts Jensen gets or the role Jensen’s Dean gets to play in the show. He just acts out what they give him. That’s all. Why trash him and his family b/c of “Sam?”
It would be wise for everyone to remember this is a tv show. The actors and their families shouldn’t be trashed or criticized on a personal level b/c someone is upset w/the writing of the show.
Sheri’s comment was in response to Jared’s ignorant assessment of the news outlets and their praise of the new baby prince of Kate and William. Jared called this innocent baby the “richest, whitest person on earth”. So if you want to get pissed at Sheri about picking on Jareds baby Thomas-then why not defend the baby George (I think his name is) as well from what Jared said??? Double standard much??? Better yet why not just shut up about the kids of celebrities and stay on track of the adults period. That goes for Jared as well. He is the one who said it. Whitest kid?? really Jared??? sounds a little racist to me.
As for season 9- I think the Dallas con this weekend will be very telling about Jensen’s happiness or disappointment of where they are taking Dean this year. He is very expressive with his face and he tends to say whats on his mind. At comic con he strictly was parroting the company line about Dean’s story. Vancon-he didn’t say much about season 9 because most of the questions weren’t about season 9. We shall see what the Dallas con goers ask. Hopefully at least some of the questions will be about season 9. Watch for his facial expressions and where his arms go. If they cross in front of him when asked about season 9-he is not happy.
Oh, were those the comments made? Well . . . yeah, Kate and William’s baby is rich and white. Jared and Gen’s children are going to be rich and white, too. Those are facts, and there’s nothing inherently wrong with being either, so I don’t see it as being worth stating or debating by anyone. It does seem a little odd for Jared to make pronouncements about how much of a fuss people pay to a celebrity’s baby–didn’t Jared and Jensen both use the interest in their celebrity babies to raise thousands of dollars for charity? That could certainly be classified as unnecessary attention paid to an unknown baby, though it could be argued that it manifested in a more satisfactory way.
If we were to go by the argument that there’s no need to pay attention to a baby being born because of serious issues in the world, then there’s probably no need for anyone to read a celebrity’s twitter or discuss a tv show or wide array of other “superficial” pursuits. But humans are able to compartmentalize and pay attention to more than one thing at once, and its probably more healthy for people to do so, at least to some degree. So I guess I don’t really see the point Jared was trying to make.
Also, I do think it’s possible to not understand or disagree the point an actor was making without saying that they’re influenced by their opinion of the show. It’s probably not a good idea to make assumptions about the motivations of others, when you don’t know that person in real life. What’s good for the actors should be good for the posters, I’d say.
Jared was commenting on the insane amount of media attention given to W&K’s baby in light of the media’s condemnation of social and financial inequality.
Here is the tweet: “How can the same news outlets that condemn racial and financial inequalities now glorify the birth of the richest, whitest person on earth?”
Jared was pointing out the hypocrisy of the MEDIA. He was not trashing Will & Kate’s baby. At least that’s not how I read his comment. In any event, I thought the media coverage of W&K’s baby – esp. here in the states – was overkill. It was just too much. I’m always happy when anyone, and I mean anyone, delivers a healthy baby. That’s great, but I didn’t need the 24-hour “baby watch.” That was just crazy.
I think it is cool when celebrities establish charities for fan gifts. I would NEVER buy a gift for a celebrity or send anything to anyone I do not personally know, but other people would. I like Jared and Jensen, but I am not that invested in their lives. I remember reading about soap fans sending actors/actresses baby presents when the CHARACTER was pregnant and when an actress was actually present. So, it is entirely possible that some fans might think to send Jared a baby gift via the studio mailroom or something, so instead he set up a charity (it seems) for those inclined to send him and his wife something. I think that’s nice. I have no problem w/that. I think that was nice of both Jensen/Daneel and Jared/Gen.
Oh, and to be clear, if Sheri did not like Jared’s comment, that’s fine. It is her right to not like his comment re: the royal baby.
Jared tweeted it so he has to expect some commentary.
I think we should all expect commentary about anything we post/say. I was under the impression that Sheri called Thomas a “spoiled rich white brat.” remarked that her comment was extreme, so I thought that that poster had the gist of the comment, and if that had been the case, that would have been too far, IMO. No one can say little Thomas is a brat; we don’t know the kid.
In fact, Sheri didn’t say that at all. She just inferred that she wasn’t happy about Jared’s new baby b/c of his comments on the media and W&K’s baby, which is fine. She can think whatever she wants.
Ah, I see. Well, I’d have to stick with the same answer as to why the media covers it as to why people might be interested in it–people can compartmentalize and show interest in both inequality and in the birth of a famous baby. Now, if someone wants to argue that our culture is too celebrity-obsessed, I would more than likely agree, but the fact is that people are, so it’s in the media’s best interest to bring them stories that they’re interested in. It still doesn’t seem like that much of a mystery. I can’t see the point of calling someone’s baby the richest, whitest baby ever (as if you can qualify someone as more white or more any ethnicity) because you are then commenting on someone’s child just to prove your point, but if you want to comment on celebrity obsession or media catering to that, more power to you. The baby watch was over the top, but it’s hardly the first or last time the media’s going to focus exclusively on one story over other important ones.
I agree that it’s cool for celebrities to set up charities in lieu of accepting gifts. That was never my point–my point was simply that Jared and Jensen have had a degree of the same celebrity interest in their unknown babies. I’m glad they were able to do something good with it, but it was still the result of unnecessary attention being paid to their kids by strangers. Just saying.
I agree that commentary about what someone says should always be expected. I think what shouldn’t be expected, or accepted, is personal assumptions about what a person based on what they say on a message board. Assuming that someone is bringing their feelings about show into a conversation about the actors isn’t fair to me, because none of us really know each other well enough to say that. I also think getting so emotionally worked up about someone else’s opinion to follow them to a different board to call them out with name-calling and capslock is pretty much the definition of taking things way too seriously. Again, just saying.
As for S9 itself, I’d love to share roxi’s optimism for Dean having a storyline, but I think that remains to be seen. When Jensen was asked if Dean had a storyline at Comic Con, he said not yet–they were throwing things against the wall and seeing what stuck. What we know is that Dean is going to make a decision that sets the mythology in motion–his part could basically be done by the end of the premiere. After that, it could just be the lather, rinse, repeat, of Dean keeps a secret and feels guilty. Been there, done that many times already. Dean getting one-shot plots about old loves and animals is not the same as an arc, let alone a place in the mytharc. Also, an arc is not setting things in motion and angsting about the fall-out, with no more active part to be played, at least not to me.
I guess my problem is that the PTB have nothing left in the trust bank with me. Remember when purgatory seemed like a great mytharc? Yeah, we all saw how that ultimately came to nothing. Tron, anyone? Yeah. So we’ll see. I’m trying not to automatically assume that Dean’s going to be given nothing but the standby guilt/angst/”heart of the show” arc for the umpteenth time, but for me, show’s got to put some really good cards on the table (and leave them there instead of handwaving them away) before they make me a true believer.
@Huh – I thought the comment was on a different board too, so I actually went looking for it on the only other board I’ve seen Sheri, but it was here. It’s a few posts down from this one in the announcement of the 2nd “Padababy.”
You and I are definitely on the same page when it comes to celebrity (aka stranger) baby births. As I said before, I am not personally invested in those births beyond being happy that mom and baby and happy and healthy when the births are announced.
I do think if any poster here had referred to Thomas as a brat – unless that person had a personal experience to share – that comment would likely be stemming from dissatisfaction w/the show rather than anything fact based. I assume no one here has spent any time w/Thomas or the Padaleckis and, hush, wouldn’t be in a position to characterize their child as a brat. To do so would lead me to assume some residual hate of “Sam” is bleeding over into real life.
But as I pointed out, Sheri did NOT call the kid a brat making my original comment unnecessary.
With regard to the new season, I am still leery. Carver did an awful job last year, and despite this preview looking really good, I do not want to get my hopes up to only be disappointed later.
@Huh-have you seen Game of Thrones??? I haven’t but this might be telling of how this season is going to go. Singer said in an interview that this season of spn was going to be like Game of Thrones. Does it have stories within stories – or multiple characters??? or something?? Because it sounds like this season is going to be all about the side characters as Sheri stated she is concerned about if that is the case. That the brothers are once again reacting as opposed to pushing the story.
Animal-Game of Thrones is on my Netflix list, but I’ve only gotten through disc 1. Two episodes probably isn’t enough to give any teal answer to that. But since the Winchesters have more than once played Greek chorus in their own show, I wouldn’t expect that to change.
Lisa1–to me, that still qualifies as bringing outside comments in. It did nothing to contribute to this board–it was just meant to personally shame another person. I don’t agree with that, nor can I agree that you can ascertain the motives behind someone’s words when you don’t know them. On that, we disagree.
On being wary about this season, however, we are completely in sync.
It amazes me that some posters on other sites seem to think Purgatory was this great story. I wish I could see how. It had no lasting impact on Dean whatsoever, and was over almost as soon as it began. It seemed to me just an excuse to introduce Benny, his only purpose apparently to cause hateful friction between Sam and Dean, and to have Dean feel guilty about leaving Cas. It went nowhere. These same posters rave about Dean’s character development last year. What character development? Other than befriending a vampire and letting the teen wolf go, it was soon back to business as usual, Dean thinking he was worthless, and existing only for Sam.
I sure hope this season is a big improvement for both Sam and Dean.
Roxi–I know, right? I think the same thing when I see reviews (and the PTB) talking about Sam and Dean’s new-found maturity in S8. I always think, “Where was this Supernatural and why wasn’t I watching that instead?” To me, Sam and Dean both regressed to S1 versions of themselves, if they were in character at all. Dean’s character growth? Since when was putting Sam first considered, taking care of Sam, or burying his issues because he was getting no resolution on them something new and different for him (and no, I don’t count the finale for resolving Dean’s issues about Sam not looking since it was pretty clear that was just the springboard to displaying Sam’s pain as melodramatically as possible)? Poor Sam certainly didn’t get to show more maturity with his “I know you’re hurt but I’m not going to do anything to fix things; you just need get over it” and “I have to die because you trust other people more than me, then you’ll see!” schticks. I suppose the PTB had it right–it definitely was a season of perception, just not the way they intended. Or maybe they did intend for it all to click into place right at the very end–but by the finale pulling out the last minute regret/emotion/resolution just felt so cheap I didn’t care anymore.
We’ll see about the premiere, I suppose. I hope it’s as good as the potential shown in the sneak peek. But like I’ve said, I’ve been impressed by show’s potential before. Here’s hoping it lives up to it, and here’s hoping that the elusive maturity the PTB have been touting actually presents itself on-screen this year, rather than keeping Dean and Sam in their respective ruts.
Yikes, there’s a mess of a sentence up there. Let me try again. Since when is Dean putting Sam first, taking care of Sam, keeping secrets, holding grudges, or burying his issues because he’s obviously not going to get any resolution on them, as he did with Sam not looking (until he conveniently laid them all out to set up Sam’s sudden onset guilt/suicidal tendencies in the finale as well as the melodramatic climax scene) considered a sign of maturity or growth for his character? This has pretty much always been who Dean is. It’s like Kripke saying the point of Dean’s S1-5 arc was to learn to love Sam right and be willing to sacrifice for him. What . . . For that matter, his keeping a secret from Sam this season doesn’t exactly start us off in a place of maturity, either, does it?
Sigh. I’m better at being optimistic when I don’t analyze things too much.
Booh Hoo, the world is so bad and Jeremy Carver of course is the most evil person on it. I´m not all too happy with the last three seasons either, but is that a reason to get so dramatic?
Character Growth – Alright, there is none. But how can you let a character grow without changing his whole nature? I´m a writer and I know very well that this is quite a delicate procedure. So all I can say is that you shouldn´t blame the writers for everything you don´t like about the show before you actually do better. You could give constructive hints instead. This doesn´t go out to all of you, because some really try to suggest alternatives, but only some…
Dean has no storyline of his own? Fine, what storyline could he have that you´d be happy with?
And so on.
One thing that I think really is to be criticised: The fact that there are more and more episodes where the two main characters are put aside for some other role.
Apart from that I´m looking forward to season 9, not only because I´m an optimist, but also because even if supernatural gets worse, in all this TV crap it´s still worth watching.
By the way, sorry if there are some mistakes in my language, usually I write in German
Comment by June_24 — September 18, 2013 @ 12:48 am
June 24th–I agree character growth is hard. That, to me, is not an excuse to give up on the idea altogether, and that’s pretty much what show did. I would think, as a writer, that would not be something that you would find acceptable. I think a constructive way to have the Winchesters show growth would be to stop repeating the same conflict points over and over again, i.e., the secret-keeping. It’s beyond old and hypocritical of both of them to complain about it, because they both do it. That’s just one example, but since they’re the ones getting paid to be writers, I don’t think it’s on those on the message boards to tell them how to write growing characters–they are, after all, the professionals.
I, for one, would be happy if Dean had a storyline where he was actively part of the mytharc. We’ve seen plenty of “emotional” storylines–usually the same one, where Dean questions what it means to be Dean/a hunter/a brother/etc. I would like to see Dean be considered important in the mythology. He doesn’t have to gain powers to do so. Show has had some attempts at this, but it either fizzles out before the end of the season or it is handed off to a different character. A trial-esque storyline where there is something only Dean can accomplish and Sam actively supports him and believes in his abilities while he does it would work for me, if you’d like an example.
I agree that show’s tendency to put the boys in the background to showcase other characters is a problem. I’d like them to find a way to use supporting characters as support, not as temporary stars while the Winchesters hang in the background.
Finally, maybe it’s a language thing, but it’s kind of rude to dismiss others opinions with boo-hoos and hyperbole (I don’t remember anyone saying Jeremy Carver was the most evil person in the world, so that just seems meant to make anyone who has had problems with his tenure feel small). I don’t mind debating with you, but I’d rather talk about issues with show, rather than about attacks on other posters. Just my opinion.
“Show has had some attempts at this, but it either fizzles out before the end of the season or it is handed off to a different character.”
This is true about Dean. Thing is, it’s ALSO very true about Sam. All these posts I see about “Sam’s got the story AGAIN.” Think back, so many (maybe most) of the storylines given to Sam fizzle out, or are completely dropped, or go no where. Sam’s wall comes down, he goes crazy…ends up just being a vehicle for Castiel’s return. Sam is psychic, the YED has plans for him, dropped like yesterday’s news at the end of Season 2 and completely forgotten by Season 4, when Sam’s powers were suddenly only because of the demon blood (which was an early and egregious retcon). Sam’s SO ANGRY…so what? It mattered for two episodes in Season 5. Sam abandons Dean to Purgatory and shacks up, why? We’ll apparently never know. On and on.
Soulless Sam was just about the only Sam plot that had a distinct beginning and end, and that was actually dragged on so long we got sick of it.
My point, if I have one, is that this happens to BOTH brothers, all the time.
Well, I for one am disappointed to hear that Cas will have a long term love interest this season. That’s right, Cas gets an actual love interest, but not Dean, aside from perhaps a quick one nighter. Argh.
But at least I also heard that the Samulet will be back, so at least there’s that.
Actually, I think many of us really could do better than the current writers.
Sorry, I really didn´t mean to offend anyone here, it´s just that I´v been reading through this forum for quite some time and there are about 2 “themes” absolutly every thread leads to: 1. How terrible the writers are
2. The same old Sam or Dean discussion
I´m at least as disappointed in Dean´s lack of storyline as you are. Just saying it´s not all that easy. Dean always was the one completly human, Sam the one with whom something was wrong.
What I could imagine for Dean´s side of the story was that they´d pick up the thing with the “true servant of god”, when he killed the whore of Babylon. Would go together with the amulet´s return, too. And I can´t believe they´ll just leave heaven without any angels. Just some indications…
Ok no one has said it or realized it so I am going to say it- The Beginning “SUPERNATURAL” there is an eye behind it! You know like we had the angel wings flapping one season, we had the ghost supernatural season 1 – we had black ooze supernatural season 7- this season there is an eye behind the supernatural. That’s curious to me. I wonder-is it God’s eye watching??? It has a white glow in it-so is it something with the angels??? I just thought I would mention it.
Wow- so the samulet is coming back???? That is a positive!!! I kinda thought so when Jim Michaels had a picture of it on his twitter.
Hey roxi – a lot of those spoilers have been debunked. I don’t think anyone has any idea what is going to happen. A lot of folks got upset about the spoilers though. Some folks think they were put up just to upset people. I really hope that isn’t the case. But then, the main tumblr URL for Destiel is taken by a Wincest fan who uses it to taunt other fans, so it’s actually kinda likely. (Sigh). Speaking of which, SPN should really feature a troll sometime.
Personally, I just hope there are good stories and character growth this season. I like the side characters, though I think the reason most folks don’t like those episodes is because it fragments the larger story arcs. Season eight had a big soggy middle that way, with the one off episodes.
After the finale, I’m not as attached to Dean as a character and I think the brothers relationship is unhealthy, so I guess I’m mainly watching for Cas at this point.
I’m sick of hearing how their relationship is “unhealthy.” There is literally NO healthy relationship on this show what is with the Oprah fans? To be honest, I don’t get why Destiel or Cas fans are always griping about it. I find the Dean and Cas’ “friendship” the most unhealthy one on the show. Dean is actually quite mean to Cas and seems very irritated with him 99% of the time and doesn’t even seem to enjoy his company. Of course a lot of the time Cas deserves it. On the other side of the coin we have Cas who has physically beaten Dean, emotionally, physically and psychologically damaged his brother. Dean and Cas are actually quite horrible to each other.
I think the boys relationship with Bobby was pretty healthy. Dean’s friendship with Charlie, Ellen, and Jo was healthy. Since Dean and Sam are at the heart of the show, if you see their bond as toxic and damaging, it’s kinda hard to enjoy the bro moments. Basically, of you think of sibling relationships as ‘you and me against the world”, where you can always count on your sibs to have your back, tell you the truth, and be there for you … The SPN ‘brother bond’ is an epic failure – and it gets difficult not to mention it, since the brother bond is a frequent topic of discussion. I don’t think all Cas or Destiel fans feel this way ; it’s just my opinion.
You’re right that the violence in Dean and Cas’s relationship is concerning, but you have to remember that when Dean struck Cas, it was because he was trying to get him to stop the apocalypse. When Cas beat Dean up, it was to stop Dean giving himself up to Michael: committing suicide and starting the apocalypse. The second time he beat Dean was after being tortured, reprogrammed, and brainwashed to kill Dean by Naomi – and he still couldn’t kill Dean. Other than that – I’d say we have very different perceptions of Dean&Cas’s relationship. That’s perfectly fine, really, since there are a lot of different ways to enjoy the show.
I think people can justify anything if they want to bad enough. I do believe that Cas has good intentions for his bad decisions. You can that about Sam and Dean too. These are not bad guys; they are heroes with flaws.
Cas didn’t beat Dean to stop if from saying yes to Michael. All he had to do was poof him back to Bobbys. He beat him because he was mad that Dean let him down after Cas had given up everything basically on Dean’s say so and Dean still was going to give in. Cas was mad and Dean was helpless. Not to mention lying and manipulating both Sam and Dean in season six and basically leaving them to Crowley’s tender mercies. And then hurting Dean’s brother in a horrific way just to spite and manipulate Dean. He even said that Cas’s betrayal made it even harder for him to trust anyone. Taking off with the angel tablet because he didn’t trust Dean. I have a hard time seeing how Dean would ever be able to have a romantic relationship (from a shipper’s pov) or even a close friendship with someone who did all that to him (and Sam). Oh the trust issues! Dean doesn’t forgive lightly. That boy can hold a grudge. Also Dean treats Cas in such a condescending way sometimes. He calls him a baby and a child, not to mention, junkless. But I do think he cares about Cas as a brother, he said so. And he is grateful to him for how he has helped them. Which is why he didn’t kill him yet for all he has done to them according to Clip Show.
“Dude, if anybody else — I mean anybody — pulled that kind of crap, I would stab them in their neck on principle.”
This is not to rag on Cas; I like the character fine as I said, he is a flawed hero, and I am ok with seeing Cas and Dean repair their relationship as much as they can. I am just pointing our that relationships on this show can be messy and complicated. It’s part of the charm.
I’m not talking about Dean and Cas’s relationship. What bugs me is that it seems to me that the writers and showrunner think Cas is a more important character than Dean, enough so that even he will have a long term love interest, but all Dean usually gets are meaningless one night stands, and even by the time configuration of the show that hasn’t happened now for 3 years.But the previews look hopeful; according to Carver Dean might actually have an important season long arc this time, although since he’s not the one doing anything to save Sam I can’t yet imagine what that will be.
@roxi – I wouldn’t believe the spoilers at this point.
@inky – I don’t think poofing Dean back to Bobby’s would have done any good. Dean would have just done the same thing again. Instead, he was commanding Dean’s attention, demanding his respect, and speaking to him in a language (violence) that he understands. You have to remember that Dean is the guy who jumped his brother without warning in the pilot. What Cas did got Dean to stop trying to give in to Michael. It was, as most unorthodox things that Cas does, effective. It’s part of why Dean actually listens to Cas. He also wasn’t trying to hurt Dean out of spite when he tore Sam’s wall down – he expected he’d be able to heal it. He did it to keep Dean occupied so he could get the souls from Purgatory and stop the apocalypse. It was a dick move, but then, Dean’s pulled a few of those to keep Sam out of the way when he wanted to do stuff. And Cas made amends as best he could by taking on Sam’s madness.
I find it very strange you would think Dean and Cas aren’t close friends, since that is absolutely canon. Cas is basically his only friend, other than Charlie.
Comment by t1gerlilly — September 19, 2013 @ 10:51 am
@67- Dean also hung unto the trenchcoat. He kept searching for Cas in Purgatory, refusing to leave without him. And he was wracked with guilt over thinking he failed him. And he has told him on more than one occasion that he was family. And sure, they have wronged eachother but so have Sam and Dean, and I have no doubt that they love eachother.
Dean does rag on Cas sometimes, and he shouldn’t, but I find it hard to believe anybody wouldn’t see what close friends they are, but I guess everybody has their own perception.
As for Cas though, I guess his separate storyline will please those who are mostly Cas fans, but for me, a Cas only storyline without Sam and Dean won’t hold much interest for me. The angel that I’m at all interested in is Ezekiel, and that’s because of his interaction with Sam and Dean. I hear Cas will not be back with the Winchesters until later in the season. A Cas who is struggling with his new humanity would have been much more compelling to me if Dean was helping him through it.
In short, the angels on Earth arc doesn’t interest me unless it means that they’re gonna want revenge and decide to free Michael and Lucifer, and M&L go after Sam and Dean again to try to coerce them into becoming their vessels. For me, SPN is first and foremost about Sam and Dean. It’s true that they have to have other relationships and interact with other characters, and SPN does need to have a stable of good regular supporting characters but Sam and Dean and their relationship and stories should always be the main attraction.
You can’t look at cas like on anybody. After all he is/was an angel and first had to learn about friendship and everything. So everything he does in the name of friendship is worth twice as much as if it came from someone else. I Don’t know how to say it but Do you know what i mean? So i think their relationship is rather strong. Like dean said in some episode: he thinks angels simply don’t have the equipment to care. And if they try, they break apart. That’s what happened to cas.
I didn’t say that Cas and Dean aren’t friends; I mentioned that Dean cares for him as a brother but that their relationship is as screwed up as Sam and Dean’s ever was. In reality, would anyone really be close friends with someone who screwed them over and hurt their family? If so, then that’s screwed up and not healthy. A lot of people who rag on Sam and Dean’s relationship hold up Cas and Dean’s friendship as some ideal when it’s just as screwed up if not more.
from post 69
“Instead, he was commanding Dean’s attention, demanding his respect, and speaking to him in a language (violence) that he understands. You have to remember that Dean is the guy who jumped his brother without warning in the pilot. What Cas did got Dean to stop trying to give in to Michael. It was, as most unorthodox things that Cas does, effective. It’s part of why Dean actually listens to Cas.”
How is that healthy? He didn’t have to beat him and they are nowhere equal in ability. That’s abusive. “Dean, you must do as I say or I will beat the crap out of you or hurt your brother” But it’s ok because Dean smacks Sam sometimes? This is what we do to get people to respect us? (I don’t like it when Dean smacks Sam around either.)
And I am still going to disagree that Cas had to give Dean a beat down to stop him. He was upset with Dean and took out his frustrations on Dean’s face. Look at the dialogue.
“I rebelled for this?! So that you could surrender to them?
I gave everything for you. And this is what you give to me.”
Hurting Dean is completely personal for Cas.
And he also didn’t stop Dean from trying to say yes to Michael; that was Sam. Cas beat him; Sam trusted him.
SAM I saw your eyes. You were totally rockin’ the “yes” back there. So, what changed your mind?
DEAN Honestly? The damnedest thing. I mean, the world’s ending. The walls are coming down on us, and I look over to you and all I can think about is, “this stupid son of a bitch brought me here.” I just didn’t want to let you down.
Of course he was trying to hurt Dean when he brought Sam’s wall down. He knew hurting Sam would hurt Dean. But it’s ok that Sam went through hell mentally and suffered physically because he was going undo it later? Is that really a solid defense? I realize that he was trying to be all “the end justifies the means” and that he did apologize and try to make penance by taking on Sam’s insanity but how do you erase what Sam already suffered?
I know I am sounding super harsh against Cas but believe it or not, I don’t dislike him. Really. I guess I just don’t understand the glossing over of Cas’s actions in comparison to Sam and Dean. There is a certain segment of the fandom who will rag mercilessly on Sam’s mistakes and on Sam and Dean’s screwed up relationship but will completely whitewash Cas’s. I think he is lucky to still be friends with the Winchesters. To me, he has more accountability because he is a supernatural being.
@inky – well, it’s clear that we’ll never agree on the specifics of Cas’s actions. But I wanted to address your larger point, that the relationship between the brothers and between Dean and Cas are equally messy.
The problem is that they aren’t the same kind of bond. If you interpret Dean and Cas’s relationship as romantic, then you expect there to be a ‘rocky road to love’. Romance narratives are entirely about the obstacles to love and how the lovers overcome them. No matter whether you separate them, or have their families, or duty, or heaven and hell arrayed against them, love will prevail, even unto death (and sometimes beyond).
But a brother is supposed to be ‘you and me against the world’, someone who knows you better than anyone else, who stands with you at the end of the world – who you can trust absolutely. There are those who choose to interpret Dean and Sam romantically as well. I choose not to – so I find it problematic.
I’d also mention the bond of friendship, which I would characterize as ‘loyal, steadfast, and true.” (Pretty much a perfect descrption of Benny, right?) That kind of narrative has the friend of the protagonist doesn’t have their own motivations or plotline unrelated to the protagonist. That’s not Cas. I understand why people who try to cast Cas as a ‘friend’ or ‘brother’ don’t particularly like him. He doesn’t fit in those narratives.
But in my opinion, as an equal partner in a romantic narrative – he’s amazing. Every time Dean just can’t quit him or Cas would rather be with Dean than in Heaven – you have the making of an absolutely amazing narrative. The funny thing to me is that the more the writers try to wrench them apart, or put obstacles between them…the MORE romantic they make the whole thing. That’s the part that makes me kind of snicker.
Ok, t1gerlilly, I don’t think I’ve ever said anything to you on the Destiel issue. For me, on the shipping issue, it’s live and let live. But this?
“If you interpret Dean and Cas’s relationship as romantic, then you expect there to be a ‘rocky road to love’.”
Coming on the heels of a verbatim description of Cas beating Dean to a bloody pulp in an alley…dude, that’s the single most disturbing thing I’ve ever read on this site.
I’m not dissing anyone, but seriously, that just ain’t right!
I only stated that I believe Cas and Dean are very close friends.
However, I will agree on one point, Cas has done a great deal against Dean (and Sam). I’ve read Cas fan sites that absolve all of the things Cas did to Dean while stating what a user Dean is and how mean he is to him. As far as I can see, Dean was justified EVERY time he was angry at Cas. And Dean has never done anything against Cas save for the time he tried to stop him from opening Purgatory, and of course after, when he tried to kill him. But what else was he gonna do? Cas had gone insane, and was going committing mass murder.
Again, I like Cas. But I’m not gonna give him a free pass.
And deliberately hurting Sam just to stop Dean with the intention of fixing him later doesn’t cut it for me. Because even if Sam had suffered for just one week, it was devastating and could have killed him.
Cas almost killed the most important person in Dean’s life on purpose. I always thought Sam forgave him way too easily.
Fans who don’t like Dean will object to how easily he forgave Cas for this, but he didn’t. He only forgave him after Sam did, and even then, it was hard for him to do so. Only going to Purgatory together healed anything between them. My theory is that both Sam and Dean realized that Cas was insane when he hurt Sam, having already taken in some souls that Crowley gave him before he did the big spell, and that he wouldn’t have done such a thing if he had been himself. That’s honestly the only way I think it would even be possible to forgive what he did to Sam.
you are right that we don’t see the relationship the same way. i don’t see any romantic chemistry between them. Making it a romantic pairing actually disturbs me more I think. If my romantic partner beat me to a pulp hurt my brother and lied to me on a regular basis, my friends would be scheduling an intervention for me. Those kind of obstacles dont scream romance to me at all. I remember when they were hinting at a hookup btw Bela and Dean. I kept thinking_you cant sleep with her, she shot your brother.
I think thetre are a lot of narratives in tv and movies that depict very messy brotherly relationships which is the essence of supernatural. I dont see Sam and Dean as romantic either but they do have a love story in a sense. It’s central to the theme.
I dont see Cas as just a friend to the Winchesters in this story. So I wouldnt say he has the friend narrative. He is a character in his own right with his own throughline since he was introduced. I have never seem him as revolving solely round Dean. However, he is not an equal player-he is still a supporting character. in my opinion that doesnt automatically put him in the position of potential romantic p artner. Look at any of the bromance shows/ They have characters who are very close but still have their own motivations unrelated to each other. i dont see how a love story btw cas and dean is necessitated by the narrative in any way.
@ g-dawg & inky – as I said, I wasn’t focusing on that one scene in particular, but Dean and Cas’s relationship as whole. I agree that is the most troubling scene in their relationship. I have also said previously on this forum that if there would be one thing Dean could not forgive, it would be Cas tearing down Sam’s wall.
I do think, though, that physicality is different in male-male relationships. I can’t tell you the number of times guys have said to me that one difference between male friendships and female friendships is that guys can punch each other and then be fine with each other the next day. So I see this as an extension of that. As an example, I’ll also cite Brokeback Mountain, in which the two lovers got into a brawl – and then one saves the shirt that has the other’s blood on it for years. Now I’m not saying that this is ideal, or desirable, or even good, since domestic violence has reared it’s head in the gay community as well as straight. I’d also agree that it’s problematic if eroticized. But as part of a relationship with Dean – given who he is…it makes sense to me.
Also – I dont’ know what brother shows you’re thinking of – but the one that comes to mind for me is “Numbers”, where the whole show is about two very different brothers (one action-oriented, one supersmart) finding a way to work together and repair their relationship.
Well, who knows what will happen. At first I read that the Samulet would be back, and then I read that it won’t. I had first read that Cas wouldn’t be with them until the latter half of the season. Hinestly though, I can’t see Dean leaving his best friend out there to hang knowing he has no powers to defend himself with and that he’s going through this struggle with his new humanity. It just seems so OCC, the Dean I know would drive out and get him. How will they explain that?
As I said before though, I do like Cas, but I just can’t get interested in a separate Cas only storyline. I find him much more interesting when his story directly intertwines with the Winchesters.
Dean’s been OCC since he let Cas live in the first place back when he let Sam out of the panic room. Letting him still live after breaking Sam’s wall is so OCC especially after the so called “big brotherly moment” in the s8 finale. and now with the “There is no me without you” line that Dean as a character is laughable and ridiculous imo. But yea I think Dean would leave Cas out on his own for awhile knowing that Cas brings nothing but trouble whenever he is around them with his bad decisions ect. Best Friend?? Don’t think so. A “tool” yes-Best Friend-not so much. Friend -can’t see how after what Cas has done to him and his brother-but OK. Frankly I think Dean just says what he has to say to manipulate people to do what is right. If he has to say ” you’re like a brother to me” he will say it -if he says “we need you” he will say it. Dean knows how to get the results from people he needs to get results from. He always has.
Sorry to hear about the samulet. I haven’t read anything one way or the other -just saw the twitter post from Jim Michaels that he had it out showing somebody.
Dean didn’t know about Cas leaving Sam out of the panic room and as far as we know never did find out about it.
Yes, it seems that it would be hard for Dean to consider Cas his best friend after all he did to them, but this is what SPN has showed us, and even Bobby said it so yeah, I’m just going by what the show has been saying. I disagree though that Dean’s word’s of brotherhood and friendship were insincere, and I don’t think he would have just lied to manipulate Cas. Enemies yes, but not Cas or Sam.
Ok, I just now realized my mistake, before anybody jumps all over me for it. Yes, Dean DID send that fake text to trick Sam last year. i Butt was soo OCC and also I have been trying to block out anything about season sucky 8. But that being said, I don’t believe that Dean, when he’s REALLY Dean, would deliberately lie to the people he cares about just to manipulate them.