Season 9 Premiere Discussion

Post your thoughts on tonight’s exciting season 9 premiere. I’ll be back when the episode ends for my quick analysis and more. Read my full recap HERE or keep reading for my analysis.

Wow, the show didn’t waste any time setting up two huge story arcs for season 9. The Sam and Dean story is a nice twist on the way these two are always at odds over the core philosophy of sticking with the fight or giving up and taking a break.


I love Ezekiel, though I’m a little disappointed Jared Padalecki now gets to play him instead of Tahmoh Penikett. Still, it’s a fantastic way to give Sam something big and juicy as he’s now secretly possessed by Ezekiel (an “angel pacemaker,” as Dean calls it).  It’s a clever variation of things we’ve seen before, from the wall inside Sam’s head to Cas being Naomi’s sleeper agent, unaware of his actions.


The journey in Sam’s head was great as it represented everything the character has been about for eight seasons. He’s constantly torn between the part of him who wants to stay and fight with his brother (represented by Dean) and the part who wants to quit and live a normal life (or die and have a normal life, in this case) as represented by Bobby.


It was so well done I didn’t even mind when Dean killed Bobby. I also loved Death coming back and having mad respect for Sam. Only Supernatural could make Death, one of the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse, into a sympathetic character we actually like.


And Dean’s dilemma is fantastic now, having to lie to Sam in order to save his life. It actually reminds me a lot of what Bones did for the past few weeks, with Pelant forcing Booth to call off his wedding without telling Brennan why. I still support Dean, but it the show is forcing him to make darker and darker choices. I mean, he tricked Sam into saying “Yes,” so it’s kind of like Sam is being soul raped.


As much as I love all of that drama, there was also a lot for Cas to do as he dealt with being human. I’m completely invested in the storyline of the angels trying to get vengeance on Cas (and that piercing angel wing opening credits is bad-ass). I love that Cas is already accepting his humanity, getting used to feeling pain. Tahmoh Penikett did a great job because Ezekiel reminded me of where Cas started out, lacking any real emotion, and it shows us how far the character has come.


His final scene was perfect, and not just because seeing Cas in his boxers is probably on a lot of fans’ wish lists. He had to choose between food and clothes, and he chose food. As a result, his trenchcoat is gone. It hurts to say goodbye to the only article of clothing we’ve ever really seen him in, but that’s beautifully symbolic of Cas becoming human. The trenchcoat was his angelic side, and now he’s had to shed that skin.


How do you feel about all of this? Are you on Dean’s side, or do you think he crossed a line in saving Sam? And which Sm is your favorite: Regular, Lucifer, Soulless or Angel?

News posted on October 8, 2013 Comments (165)


  1. anyone else just getting a blue screen on the CW? I can’t believe that I waited all this time and I am going to miss the premiere!!!

    Comment by Nicole — October 8, 2013 @ 4:36 pm

  2. Omg I can’t believe Sam is possessed by a angel and cass lost his grace
    This is gonna be the best season yet!!!

    Comment by Bethany butts — October 8, 2013 @ 5:50 pm

  3. Wow! I love this show, I hope it goes on forever.

    Comment by Thackery — October 8, 2013 @ 5:59 pm

  4. This show keeps getting better and better.
    Best fucking show on TV! Awesome episode

    Comment by Rinki5656 — October 8, 2013 @ 6:01 pm

  5. As secrets/lies go, this one is pretty tame. I think that is a good thing, since the arguing might not be so severe this season.

    Overall, I think this was a hopeful start to the new season. Though, I hope they keep Tahmoh Penikett around for more later on.

    Comment by G-dawg — October 8, 2013 @ 6:03 pm

  6. Great show , I love it.. I hate I missed the 2012 season feels like I missed so much .

    Comment by Trey — October 8, 2013 @ 6:08 pm

  7. Who Do You Love? Jeremy Carver at the moment. Awesome episode, nice tight script, and an intriguing direction for the Winchesters. I found Cas’ story a little slow, but it may pick up when he rejoins the Winchesters (Ep. 9.08, I think).

    I liked how they used Bobby in this episode, I liked Sam’s head trip, and I liked action Dean and that he’s lost his apron. Also hope this isn’t the last we’ve seen of Death. I love that character. And I hope we see Ezekiel again. I liked that actor (can’t remember his odd name at the moment).

    Very much appreciate that there was no trashed canon that I saw.

    Great job, Jeremy. I’ve got fingers crossed that this opener bodes well for the entire season, because I sure liked it.

    Great job, Jeremy.

    Comment by Sheri — October 8, 2013 @ 6:09 pm

  8. It’s always a treat to see Death. Satisfying premier. I’m confused, did the angels with families and jobs already live on earth or were they the recently fallen? If they were already on earth, why would they be so angry at Castiel? Also, I’m not looking forward to seeing a pathetic Castiel almost getting killed every episode. Really telling that Sam wanted Death to make sure this time it would be final.

    Comment by debyvon — October 8, 2013 @ 6:13 pm

  9. Very nice first episode. I liked it. Too bad Bobby got stabbed as the way for him to go. It was cool to see death again.

    I do think the (you know what) is going to hit the fan when Sam finds out what Dean did.

    But it will be cool to see angel possessed Sam with glowing eyes do so mojo stuff and not think demon blood. lol

    Looking forward for next week.

    Comment by Jose — October 8, 2013 @ 6:13 pm

  10. This was the best season premier Supernatural has had since season 4’s “Lazarus Rising.”

    Of course, nothing can beat the season 4 premier, which still remains the best premier and probably one of the very best episodes of the whole series.

    Comment by JJA — October 8, 2013 @ 6:27 pm

  11. @ debyvon #8: The angels with families and jobs are fallen angels who have possessed vessels who said yes.

    It does raise a question, though. If Grand Canyon angel’s vessel was disintegrating like Nick’s did with Lucifer’s possession, does that mean that there are certain vessels for certain angels? Sam would be suitable for Ezekiel, though, because he was a suitable vessel for Lucifer, an archangel.

    Comment by Sheri — October 8, 2013 @ 6:36 pm

  12. I’d disagree with you on that one, JJA, I think Season 2’s premiere (In My Time of Dying) was the best premiere. But, doesn’t matter. I agree with you about this one. I’m pretty happy with it. A HUGE improvement over last season! :)

    Comment by G-dawg — October 8, 2013 @ 6:37 pm

  13. Thank you, Bethany butts, for spoilers… Why would you comment this at all ?

    Comment by NP — October 8, 2013 @ 6:46 pm

  14. Really liked this episode.

    Comment by LG — October 8, 2013 @ 7:30 pm

  15. I think some vessels are better fits than others, and vessels like Sam and Dean are super-awesome because they were bred for millenia to hold archangels.
    Otherwise, freaking great episode. The season is off to a good start.
    A shame Castiel is still killing angels.

    Also, won’t Kevin be super pissed when he finds out they didn’t go through the trials?

    Comment by brx — October 8, 2013 @ 7:59 pm

  16. Glad everyone enjoyed this episode. That is a good start for the new season.
    For me it was the same-old-same-old. Sam is sick and wants to quit and die already but Dean will not let him go. “There is no me without you” Sounds like a love song.
    Bobby is back….or is he?
    Castiel is still a joke- a nice-looking one but still a joke.
    The Angels were so irritating I actually missed Crowley!!
    Sam is possessed by an Angel- who supposedly will leave him as soon as Sam is well.
    And Dean is keeping YET ANOTHER secret from Sam.
    Let Sam quit and die already- for real, like he wants!
    Let Dean finally grow up and let Sam go and become his own person.
    Let the Angels PLEASE go back to HEAVEN and leave Earth alone.

    Now I know this cannot happen because without Two Winchesters there is no show. But if the writers are constantly going to make Sam be sick and dying and begging Dean to let him go and Dean is constantly going to be praying to who ever and whining that he can’t lose Sam there really is NO show anyway.
    This is NOT the Winchesters. This is just repetitive horrible stale writing. Tiring and, for me, disappointing.
    But I have come to not expect too much from the show anymore that way it isn’t that hard a letdown when I get nothing.
    Now I let everyone here rave about the episode and tell me how much they enjoyed it. So PLEASE do not come ranting and raving at me because I saw the show differently.
    Let’s just agree to disagree about this episode.
    I was glad to see Dean and I look forward to seeing him again next week. And I hope that Sam will finally be allowed to look like he is alive. He looks much better that way.

    Comment by SL — October 8, 2013 @ 8:08 pm

  17. Wow, all I have to say is wow. The set up for this season is intense, i do have a glooming feeling that the tenth will be the last though :(. And did anyone scream at the tv when dean was talking to ez about the possession? Ummm hello dean, what about the catch, THERES ALWAYS A CATCH!!!! Grrrrr. this possession wont end well at all imo, welp i can say this season will indeed be very interesting.

    Comment by Justin — October 8, 2013 @ 8:16 pm

  18. I’m confused about what show expects me to think about all this. Am I supposed to think that Dean did the right thing, because family is all that matters, a la the S8 finale? Or am I supposed to think that what Dean did was terrible, because Sam clearly wanted to leave life behind and Dean couldn’t let him go, resulting in either Dean or the metaphorical construct of Dean projected by Ezekiel convinced him not to? What’s the ruling here?

    Once again, I feel there’s a damned if you do, damned if you don’t thing going on here–if Dean doesn’t say yes to Ezekiel’s plan, he doesn’t love Sam enough to try to save him, but if he does, he didn’t respect Sam’s decision. Am I supposed to think Dean did the wrong thing (because when Sam finds out and is pissed I’ll definitely understand), but be happy he did it anyway, because it proves he loves Sam more than anything else(as if we needed more evidence)? What’s the message here?

    Also, if the first Dean and Bobby in Sam’s head are really him, then Sam really has issues with Dean, doesn’t he? Forget Ruby–Sam still is using the metaphorical construct of Bobby to express his resentment of Dean selling his soul? Talk about holding a grudge–Sam-as-Bobby was really laying into his construct of Dean before the angel deal ever happened, which is pretty telling when you think about it (if the PTB thought about it, which is not a guarantee). Now, it’d be one thing if show had Sam put all his baggage with Dean on the table to deal with it this year, but given how Dean putting his baggage on the table last season turned out, I’m not holding my breath. Or does show even realize what they did there?

    And Dean . . . so am I supposed to be happy that again all his character growth from S5, where he had to learn to love Sam enough to support him unconditionally and love him the right way or whatever Kripke said, is pretty much trash-canned? This is exactly the Dean who sold his soul to Hell, and I’m not sure if it’s supposed to be a bad thing or a good thing. I assume it will be bad when Sam finds out, but ultimately does show want me to be happy Sam survived? But if this Dean is the Dean that caused so much pain because he didn’t let Sam go, how is that supposed to be something we cheer for? Did show instead want us to cheer for Sam to die and be sad that he didn’t get the chance? I don’t know.

    Also, what the point of de-powering Castiel if we’re going to give Sam angel powers? Castiel was intermittently helpful, and it seems possessed Sam is going to be able to step right into that role, so . . .

    It seemed like a pretty well done episode at the time, but now that I’m examining the details I’m not sure what to make of it. Anyone got any thoughts to help me out here?

    Comment by Huh — October 8, 2013 @ 8:38 pm

  19. Yikes, Dean does not back down from a tough call. This reminds of the lisa/ben mindwipe. Sam was not impressed about that so what;s he going to think when he finds out he is entertaining angels unaware. eek.

    Jensen and Jared killed me. loved seeing bobby and death again. I hope tahmoh comes back at some point because he did a great job. I felt bad for cas. He picked up a psycho stalker and it was only day one.

    Good start to the season.

    Comment by jace — October 8, 2013 @ 8:40 pm

  20. I FREAKING MISSED 45 MINS OF THE SHOW BECAUSE THE SCREEN WAS WHITE!!!!!! Got to hear bits and pieces, though—I am SOOOO PISSED! (At least I got to see the end and am very much looking forward to the rest of the season.)

    Comment by SAM — October 8, 2013 @ 9:18 pm

  21. I agree with those who say this is the best premiere since the quintessential season 2 one!
    Poor Dean has not been this desperate in a long time—it ripped me up that he cried while pleading about Sam….but I knew he would find a way <3 :)
    That Sam has an angel inside him is intriguing and burgeoning with possibilities…:)

    Comment by MEG — October 9, 2013 @ 12:22 am

  22. Actually, Huh, I had a different thought about Bobby. Listen to what he says in the woods. He sounds a lot more like a reaper escorting Sam to his boss than the old Bobby. All that stuff about acceptance and moving on. “Dean” showing up to stab him would be part of Sam resisting the reaper’s persuasion.
    (And it’s telling that Sam projects the part of himself that’s a fighter as Dean. I think there’s a little “childhood hero” showing through.)

    Comment by G-dawg — October 9, 2013 @ 3:49 am

  23. So, Jared gets yet another juicy acting challenge, which is great for him but come on, when is it Jensen’s turn?
    And I can just hear fans now saying what a selfish bastard Dean is for refusing to let Sam go when he clearly wanted to go and be at peace, it seemed the show was trying to paint Dean in a bad light.
    I’m sorry, i guess I can’t share everybody’s glowing reviews. It just seemed more of the same, Sam is a wonderful hero, Sam is special, Dean is a pathetic desperate jerk who can’t relinquish his hold on him. I had such high hopes that Jensen would finally get his time to shine this season. Judging from this, it doesn’t look like that’s gonna happen. Exactly what important season arc is Dean gonna have? The only thing I can see right now is that everybody will end up hating him for tricking Sam. After having such high hopes that this season would finally be different, I feel letdown. Maybe things will improve as the season goes on.

    Comment by roxi — October 9, 2013 @ 3:51 am

  24. Roxi(#23): I agree with you with the difference that I did NOT have “high hopes” for this season. The last 2 seasons were so bad that for me there is little that can be done with the show to improve it unless they were to go back to the essence of the show from the past. That is not going to happen.

    I just did not see the “glow” everyone else here has said they saw in this episode. There was NOTHING new here. No development of characters; they do not improve in any way from season to season. Especially Dean.

    And the “secret” again!! How many “secrets” does this show have to have. Each time it ends with Sam being angry at Dean and storming off and Dean running off after him and Sam doing some reckless desperate act and Dean begging him not to and Sam getting sick and Dean sobbing for help to save him.

    Nothing different here.

    I guess it is too much to hope for Dean and Sam Winchester to be brothers and allies again, fighting off evil and supporting each other.

    Another episode next week. Maybe it will be better.

    Comment by SL — October 9, 2013 @ 4:45 am

  25. @Huh – Of course, Sam hates that Dean sold his soul for him. If Dean hadn’t done that, Dean wouldn’t have died and suffered 40 years in Hell, and Sam wouldn’t have started the apocalypse. That’s how Sam sees it, so I completely understand why he was upset. Sam would have rather stayed dead than Dean die for him.

    As far as how you should feel, I don’t think the show was going for any one feeling. It was a complicated situation. At first, I was arguing that Sam wanted to die, but I think he was in conflict. There was a part of him that was fine w/dying. I’d even say it was like 90% of him felt that way, but there was at least 10% of him that was open to surviving. Each time, “Dean” came to him, he asked if Dean had an answer or solution. Even at the end, when it was clear that Sam really wanted to go w/Death, he didn’t b/c “Dean” showed up, asked him to fight, and gave him some hope.

    I left the episode not feeling upset w/any of the players. I do wonder if that last vision of “Dean” was really him. I thought it was Zeke playing Dean, but someone else said they believed it was actually Dean. It wasn’t clear to me. I’m going to watch the episode again to get some clarity.

    Comment by Lisa1 — October 9, 2013 @ 5:10 am

  26. @ 18- Huh- Somehow I understand you. I like the episode
    overall, but theres some things that bothers me, like the
    idea that Sam is giving up so easy. He really wants to die
    and stay dead for real. I dont like the idea that this time
    Dean is not sacrificing himself, but he is sacrificing Sam
    so he can have his little brother with him. That in my
    opinion make Dean looks like an a.. hole with some serious
    codependency issues. I think Sam will be very piss off when
    he find out whats happening.
    The episode was packed with angels. Think that will be the
    main ark for this season. Next episode looks pack with
    demons. I will wait and see how everithing develop.

    Comment by LG — October 9, 2013 @ 5:37 am

  27. I will always love this show! Something different each time, different ways to tell the story. I think I have to watch this episode again to really digest the whole plot. You always catch something different the second time around! Very intricate premier! Cannot wait to see where the story, or stories are going! After 8 years and different days its still great!

    Comment by Lucy — October 9, 2013 @ 5:41 am

  28. Sam never said he wanted to die. Sam as Dean and Sam as Bobby were both Sam arguing it out in his head as to whether or not he should keep fighting.

    I don’t think him asking Death to promise no one could bring him back no matter what was him saying he gives up, it was him saying he doesn’t want to keep messing with the natural order of things and he doesn’t want anyone to get hurt trying to bring him back. Dean went through something similar in Season 2 after finding out John had sold his soul for him, and Dean, Sam, and Bobby all eventually agreed Bobby had made a mistake by not going with his reaper initially. Sam knew Dean would do anything he could to save him and he didn’t want anyone to get hurt because of him. Because of course you aren’t just going to get over the person you love the most in the world voluntarily going to Hell for you. I can’t think of a better way for Dean to say “I don’t matter AT ALL” and, now that I think about it, Dean’s never said (and I’m sure never will) anything along the lines of, “hey, damning myself to Hell for eternity so you get another fifty years on Earth was a good plan.” (They said in S6, he tried to do something similar when Sam jumped in the hole in Swan Song, he just couldn’t find any way to get him out.)

    I liked the episode. Dean not telling Sam he’s being possessed is pretty in keeping with his character, because the end result is it saves Sam. And, if I remember correctly which I might not, he never said he would definitely not tell Sam ever that’s what was happening; he acknowledged Sam wouldn’t want it and when (not if) he finds out, he’ll be pissed, but it’s the only way, so he did it.

    I also liked the idea that not all the angels are automatically angry and blaming Castiel for what happened. I’m not sure why they would actually; do they not know about Metatron taking revenge for initially being kicked out of Heaven himself? Am I forgetting something?

    Comment by Sarah — October 9, 2013 @ 6:06 am

  29. I do think there was a large part of Sam that was okay w/dying. He said he didn’t want to die but seemed perfectly fine to let it happen. He didn’t feel an overwhelming desire to fight. I think that’s the only way they can have Sam be upset later in the season b/c if Sam wanted to live, wouldn’t he be okay w/an angel healing him? Why get upset if the end result is what you want?

    Sam was okay w/dying. And if you think about it, Sam should have been dead for 6-7 years now (maybe more w/all the time jumps). Each time he has come back, there have been negative consequences for his brother and friends (and the world). The first time he died, Dean sold his soul and was ultimately tortured for 40 years. Sam started drinking demon blood and unknowingly started the apocalypse, which damned the world. The second time he “died,” he was brought back soulless. He tried to kill Bobby, he let Dean become a vampire and ruined Dean’s love life, and he killed numerous innocents. And then he suffered from a mental illness and a host of problems.

    The next time Sam dies, he wants to stay dead. I completely understand his position.

    Comment by Lisa1 — October 9, 2013 @ 7:25 am

  30. Why do i think that bobby isnt back? cuz they just showed bobby in sams dream but they didnt show us bobby actually comming into the real world did they?

    Comment by D3ATH_Boy — October 9, 2013 @ 7:42 am

  31. I think that being at peace with death when you know it is inevitable is not the same as wanting to die. He pretty much told Brain Dean that he would take an option if there was one. And face it, after all the horrible things that Sam has been through and how weary he must be, who would blame him for thinking that slipping away to his eternal rest wouldn’t be the worst thing. It’s in the song–there’ll be peace when you are done. Lay your weary head to rest… ;)
    So it is interesting that Sam is the one who says, “we have work to do.” He is not done yet and he accepts that too

    I think that after 8 plusi seasons, repetition is inevitable. Especially since an over arching theme of the show is that Sam and Dean’s biggest fear is losing each other. How they deal with that fear is what makes it interesting or not. I don’t necessarily think that the writers came down on whether Dean’s choice was right or wrong. I can put my self in Dean’s shoes and understand why he did what he did. I can also understand that Sam will be upset with the choice. I also wonder if Ezekiel will turn out to be someone other than who he says he is.

    As far as Dean getting bashed for his choice by the fans-the people who dont like him will always look for amunition. If he didn’t save Sam when he could, he would be getting flack for that too. In this case though, it was a pretty controversial decision so I can see how there will be a lot of people who understanably don’t like what he did. I see it as consistent with who Dean is. Dean will go to any lengths even crossing lines that maybe ought not be crossed. (Maybe that was part of his anger in season 8 when Sam didn’t look for him.)

    For what it is worth, Sam is also being put through the wringer for ‘not caring enough about Dean’s feelings’ in accepting his death so easily. Oh spn fandom. What are you going to do.

    Comment by jace — October 9, 2013 @ 8:15 am

  32. BTW big ratings for the premiere and it improved on its lead in!

    Originals 1.9
    Supernatural 2.5

    Best opener in three years. Way to go PR department

    Comment by jace — October 9, 2013 @ 8:33 am

  33. @ Huh #18: I haven’t read past your comment, but I’ll give you my take on your questions.

    Personally, I don’t think this is a matter of whether Dean is right or wrong. I think this is Carver’s way of putting the brothers firmly back into the undying ‘brother bond’ forever.

    I found it interesting that Dean, for the second time, went against his own moral code in agreeing to Sam’s angel possession. I don’t think that’s a big deal in this case, if you look at it like Dean being willing to make the tough calls. He’s done this before; two examples being killing Benny to fully commit to the fight, torturing Bobby in And Then There Were None. I think Dean feels guilty, not only because he knows Sam won’t be happy with his decision, but because it goes against his moral code.

    It was interesting to me that HeadBobby was used in much the same way as hallucinated Mary when Sam was in detox locked in the panic room. Mary confirmed what Sam was thinking at the time — that he was right, that he was the only one who could kill Lilith, and that Dean was too weak. Here, HeadBobby was telling Sam what his own argument was; that it was alright to quit, that he had given enough, that he was leaving a legacy behind, and then HeadDean showed up and killed HeadBobby — Dean, who never gives up, who keeps fighting, who reminded him again of the undying brotherhood. Carver wrote an interesting scene there but, IMO, has firmly planted the brothers back into what the fans want — the brotherhood.

    Without getting into the specifics, I thought Carver had Sam exactly in character, warts and all, and he once again chose Dean. I do think Sam has a very limited view of what his brother is, but the high points were there, so that didn’t cause me to be angry or specifically to have sympathy for him. Sam was okay with me in this episode.

    Of more concern is that I still don’t see a mytharc for either Sam or Dean. Cas, IMO, has the mytharc, since it is he who the fallen angels are mad at and only came after Dean because they know Dean is Cas’ friend. As near as I can figure out, the mytharc will be opening the Gates of Heaven this year, and I think the Winchesters will be supporting characters who help Cas and the good angels do that.

    I also thought Cas’ scenes took away from the action and what was going on with Zeke. His scenes, I felt, took a lot the tension out of the Dean, Zeke, angel scenes and destroyed the coherence of the Zeke story. My understanding was that Zeke was doing this because he still believed in the ‘angel’s mission,’ but I still don’t know what Zeke gets out of the deal to help Dean and have the feeling that that point has yet to be developed.

    Comment by Sheri — October 9, 2013 @ 10:05 am

  34. Great Episode, one question though, I can’t seem to find a full cast list for the episode showing who played ‘Hael’?

    Comment by Nick — October 9, 2013 @ 10:08 am

  35. @ roxi #23: I disagree somewhat with your take on this in that I don’t see a specific story for either Sam or Dean.

    I posted several times last year that I didn’t even know who Sam Winchester was. I have now come to the conclusion that Sam isn’t a character with any agency anymore, not since his 5-year story ended, and that’s why each and every season we get another version of Sam. That could be called acting challenges, but I think it’s more of a fact that the writers don’t know what to do with the character since his “destiny” ended.

    Dean, on the other hand, never had a story (a “destiny”), but he was set up to be his brother’s keeper, a friend to an angel, a moral center from which all other stories flow out from, so he remains viable as a support character, still playing himself.

    Dean saving Sam, Dean keeping a secret, Sam being pissed, Dean apologizing, Sam being angel possessed until mid-season, being pissed, and the brothers’ reconciling is busy work, not a mytharc. But I do think they will be support to Cas and the good angels in their quest to open the Gates of Heaven.

    I expect lots of one-offs and support character episodes, with only a few mytharc episodes this season; but, as long as they keep Dean in the action and out of the kitchen, I can watch the show.

    Comment by Sheri — October 9, 2013 @ 10:25 am

  36. So Sam is still possessed, even though he woke up? I thought the angel left Sam’s body, when he woke up..?

    Comment by Evyb — October 9, 2013 @ 10:46 am

  37. I have already seen a good deal of hate, all of it being directed at Dean, calling him a mental rapist and as much as it pains me, I must sadly admit that I see their point. If Sam had been fighting strongly to live, it would have come out much differently, but since it was clear, to me anyway, that he truly was done with this horrible life and wanted to go be at peace, it comes across instead as Dean forcing him to stay against his will because Dean is desperate and has no value of his own. What exactly is Dean’s big important season arc supposed to be now?
    I am disappointed because I really did believe that, judging from the great looking promos, that it was finally gonna be different this time. I was going into it optimistically, anyone who read my prior posts knows that. But I disagree Sheri, Sam DOES look like he has an important story to me, he has angel powers now and I’ll bet it turns out Ezekiel reneges on leaving him so easily so Jared will probably get to act that out for a long while. That’s great for him, but when is it Jensen’s turn? You can’t tell me that what he’s been doing for ages now is really acting because at this point he could phone it in. There’s nothing new, challenging, or important for Jensen to act, unless you want to consider how all the characters will probably hate him for doing this to Sam.
    And please, nobody tell me to quit watching or stop complaining. I keep watching because I really truly had hoped it would be different this time but mainly because there’s only a couple of seasons left so I want to see what happens

    Comment by roxi — October 9, 2013 @ 11:04 am

  38. Unreal..can this show get any more moronic than it is now? I really hope this is the last season for this demonic show. Sam being possed by an angel? Give me a @@@@ing break!

    Comment by Mys — October 9, 2013 @ 11:07 am

  39. You have to understand now why I began to support the idea of Dean/Cas after having been dead set against it for so long. To me, it would have been a chance for Jensen to finally get a meaty storyline to act, something for him to get an important story so that he can finally showcase his acting skills like Jared has always gotten. Jared is getting praise already by bloggers who feel he is going to steal the show acting wise in season 9. Well of course he will,he is actually given something to work with. As is Misha.
    I am just hoping that at least, whatever Dean’s Robin story is, it will be cause for Jensen to have a really strong acting episode, since it doesn’t look like he will have a strong season arc after all. I am almost hoping it is some sort of sexual assault trauma as terrible as that might sound. It would really be a chance for him to shine with a truly dark, dramatic episode.

    Comment by roxi — October 9, 2013 @ 11:13 am

  40. 238 Yes Mys, this is point. I DO love Sam but come on. Again, how much more special can they make him? First he had demon psychic powers, then was the special one who was the only one able to stop Lucifer and the Apocalypse, then the only one who could do the trials, now he’s possessed by an angel and has angel powers. Why don’t they just make him God and have done with it?
    Meanwhile, Dean STILL is unimportant in the scheme of things, and has no value other than to exist for Sam, even to the point now of of violating his mind and body and lying to and tricking him, all because he sees no value in himself at all. This is what, to me, the SPN writers and showrunner think of the characters; that Sam is the main hero, and all around wonderful guy who’s worth everything, and Dean is the pathetic loser who’s only purpose is existing for Sam and because of such is a burden to Sam’s life. And no, this is NOT Sam hate or bashing. This is just expressing disappointment in how these writers treat Dean. If they dislike the character so much, why don’t they just kill him off? Jensen might FINALLY have his due as an actor.
    Sorry, just tired and really letdown after having so looked forward to this all summer. Maybe as the season progresses, it will get better for Dean and Jensen. Fingers crossed.

    Comment by roxi — October 9, 2013 @ 11:26 am

  41. @roxi – Really? You hope Dean is sexually assaulted because you don’t think Jensen is getting good enough scripts? Is it not enough to make assumptions about the entire season based on one episode, you need to apparently take offense on behalf of the actual actor playing a character? Not to mention, Dean somehow being raped would be by far the most out of character occurrence for any of them, ever.

    I love fanfiction too, but I think you may have read too many.

    Comment by Sarah — October 9, 2013 @ 11:33 am

  42. I didn’t say I specifically wanted Dean to have been sexually assaulted. I guess I should have chosen my words more carefully. What I meant is that there is an episode coming up that Carver says we learn about a life experience that Dean had as a young teenager that nobody, not even Sam knew about, and it is a very emotional episode for him. I can’t imagine what else it could be. And maybe it involved Robin’s father and Dean was so traumatized that he had blocked it out but seeing her again brings it back. It’s NOT that I want Dean to have been assaulted (I’m NOT the sicko you apparently think I am) but if that’s what the episode turns out to be about, than what I’m saying is that at the very least, it will actually give him a real story to work with for that episode in which he finally gets a chance to shine as an actor. Sorry I confused you there. And no I don’t read fanfiction, thank you.
    Perhaps you skipped over the part where I stated that I will keep hoping the season gets better.
    And yes, judging from the premiere, it really does look like more of the same; Sam is special, gets an important meaty acting showcase and arc, while Dean’s only value is existing for him, so much so that he violates him mentally and physically, tricks him, and then mind wipes him and lies to him. How can Dean ever be redeemed for this? Even Sam not looking for him last season is not as bad as this.If Sam had showed that he was fighting to live it would have been different, but clearly he was ready to go and was looking forward to being at peace. So what Dean did comes across as horribly selfish, wrong, and paints him as a pathetic loser with no worth of his own. Then he goes right back to being nothing more than Sam’s caretaker. I want to know how this is some great story arc for Jensen, to do such a thing that makes him hated and gives the character no growth. And here I was one of the biggest cheerleaders for the new season.
    I really hope I’m proven wrong, and if I am, you can slam me all you want to. I’d gladly take it if the season progresses and things greatly improve for Jensen the actor and Dean the character.

    Comment by roxi — October 9, 2013 @ 12:32 pm

  43. @ roxi: Silly me. I am assuming that Carver did not did not de-juice Cas just so he could juice up Sam with angel powers. That makes no sense at all, unless JP and MC got together and said, “I’m bored playing my character. Let us switch.”

    Now that I think about it, it is possible the two running the show and their high-school level writers may very well think it’s a clever idea to switch the two characters. I didn’t see anything in the episode to indicate that Sam will actually have angel powers, but he may.

    I hope not. I would rather watch Tahmoh Pennikett play Zeke than watch JP playing Tahmoh Pennikett playing Zeke, and that still does not negate the fact that it also reinforces my point that Sam Winchester is no longer a viable character in his own right.

    Comment by Sheri — October 9, 2013 @ 1:40 pm

  44. evyb

    Sam is still possessed because Ezekiel needs more time to heal Sam’s very damaged body. Ezekiel wiped Sam’s memory so he will not know he is possessed, Ezekiel will leave when Sam is completely healed—or so he says.

    Comment by jace — October 9, 2013 @ 1:43 pm

  45. Much better than I had anticipated. Dean as a real action hero: smart, tough, quick-thinking and determined. Jared got mostly to lie in bed for his shots, but his scenes were the dramatic question to be resolved in the episode and resolved in such a way to give a theme to the season. Sam and Death was a first-rate scene. Richings as Death is one of the best role-actor matches ever in SPN. Don’t really know what being possessed by an angel means, but look forward to finding out. Have to agree with an earlier comment that Jared seems to get the challenging acting role, but he seems to enjoy being challenged and so far has stepped up when dealt a new Sam. The only problem I had with the Sam or Dean segments were they were too rapid, and I’m totally in favor of a fast pace. The Castiel segments I thought unnecessarily broke up the action, but I’m happy to see if we must have Castiel, he is separate from the boys’ story.

    Comment by CaseyT — October 9, 2013 @ 1:46 pm

  46. Roxi, where do you go where you see all of this Dean hate?? My advice, don’t go there anymore. :D

    Look, this fandom is very set in its ways, and two of those ways are “Sam sucks” and “Dean sucks.” Those trolls will never go away until the show ends, so I’ve learned to ignore them for the most part. Trust me, going through a season asking “how will the fans react to what (insert Sam/Dean) is doing?” is a miserable way to watch the show, and it’s one of the reasons I can’t watch reruns of Season 4, because I spent the whole year asking that in regards to what Kripke was doing with Sam’s arc. You have to enjoy the show for what YOU like, not what the rest of this crackpot fandom thinks. Just my two cents, do with it what you may! :)

    Comment by G-dawg — October 9, 2013 @ 2:53 pm

  47. @Lisa1—You know, I didn’t get the sense that theoretical construct Bobby was saying the deal was stupid was coming from a place where Sam hated what it did to Dean. Bobby’s whole argument seemed to be that Sam should die because he deserved peace and Dean, the one with the dumb plans, could ruin it again. I didn’t see much sign that Sam was thinking about Dean during the time inside his head at all, frankly, so I’ll have to think about that. On the other hand, it just makes me smile because of all the arguments I saw last year that Dean was a grudge-holder while Sam was a paragon of forgiveness—turns out Sam’s human just like the rest of us.

    You’re right that show may not be going for one feeling right now—they do like to set up controversial decisions and let the fans fight it out for a little while before they tell us how we’re supposed to see things. We’ll see which way it ultimately falls out. To me, Sam was pretty much ready to die. When the metaphorical construct of Dean showed up to fight, he was pretty much always ready to argue with him. Maybe it’s because Sam really doesn’t have much faith in Dean, himself, or anything else at this point—he didn’t seem ready to do much to try to find a way out of his situation. The Sam who couldn’t cope with Dean disappearing couldn’t cope with the uncertainty, and seemed pretty ready to go to me. I do agree, though, that once the last Dean showed up bearing his soul and a plan, he was ready to listen, but he didn’t seem much ready before then.

    I’m not really upset at any of the players, but I think the PTB are selling a bit of a bill of goods when they say this was unbelievable and something they’ve never done before. Dean being desperate and doing dodgy things to save Sam—check. Sam nearly dying and then getting handed the what’s wrong with Sam storyline—check. Dean’s actions seem to me to be the natural progression of show’s insistence that Sam is the only important thing in Dean’s life and he’s so co-dependent that he can’t let him go, throwing away the first 5 seasons worth of character development. I’m not thrilled with it, honestly, and I’m not thrilled to hear Sam still doesn’t know about the possession 8 episodes in. The secret-keeping is yet another tired trope I wish show would retire. I’m not terribly upset by the premiere, but I keep reading the glowing reviews and I don’t get it. Oh, well, different strokes.

    I hope that it was Zeke playing Dean in the last scene, because the “There’s no me without you” was cringe-worthy, as if Dean really isn’t allowed to be a full person without Sam. I can see why it would work for Sam, though.

    Comment by Huh — October 9, 2013 @ 3:55 pm

  48. @LG—I agree that Sam’s easy readiness to listen to the side of him that wanted to die over the side that might live and fight his way back to Dean was troublesome. What happened to the Sam who was going to live and show Dean the light—once again Dean (as well as the metaphorical contruct thereof) is the one doing the heavy lifting to keep the brothers together. It’d be nice if just once show would flip the roles for a little variety.

    I don’t understand what you mean when you say that Dean was sacrificing Sam, but I agree that he really did make bad choices here. That’s what I mean—show basically had me rooting for Sam to die and being sad that he didn’t. Is that really what they were going for? It seems like I’m supposed to love the results but hate the methods Dean used. That makes me roll my eyes a little. Show can’t seem to decide whether Dean being this dependent and determined to stay with his brother is good (Yay, he saved Sam) or bad (Why can’t he respect Sam’s desire to get away from him? [I know that’s simplifying this situation, but I think this pretty much was what show was laying down in the first half of last season, and it’s a theme they go back to over and over]). Dean as a character can’t win for losing, and Sam as a character gets lost in what neat thing show will think up to do to him next.

    I’ll wait and see what develops, but I’m not jumping up and down at the moment.

    Comment by Huh — October 9, 2013 @ 4:02 pm

  49. @Sheri—See, I don’t think that this puts the brothers’ firmly back into the undying brotherly bond. To me, this is more about separating them with secrets and hurt feelings and the same OMGDRAMAZ they always do. To me, it just ends up undermining the brotherly bond. I saw an interview with Jensen and Jared where they said in a recent episode they were filming someone is going to give them the “You’re lucky to have a brother” spiel (which I’m sure will be aimed at Dean again), and Jensen’s reaction was like, “Really?” When they have Sam and Dean spend the bulk of their time at odds or walking on eggshells around each other, is the bond really that palpable? It’s not to me.

    I agree that Dean is in character because he’s willing to make the tough calls, and when he goes against his instincts it’s usually for Sam, a la agreeing to possession and killing Benny to save Sam. I suppose no matter what the prime directive must be adhered to, but I’m just not that interested in the fall-out this time. I just want this whole secret bit over and done with, and apparently it’s still around in 9.8. Sigh.

    I think it’s interesting that show managed to write yet another version of Bobby that I don’t like. HeadBobby definitely represented Sam’s superior side, the side that credited himself and himself alone for saving Bobby. Which feels mean, because yes, Sam should be the one to make a call on whether he’s had enough, but bringing back Bobby to yell and Dean some more puts me in a bad place with him. I found it satisfying when metaphorical contruct Dean killed him. Yes, Dean killing Bobby reminded Sam of not giving up on their brotherhood, and Sam walked away. Meh. To me, the better representation of that was the end scene, where Dean might have been Ezekiel instead of Dean. Weird.

    I agree that Sam was there, warts and all, though I’m not sure it was intentional. I hope it was, though, because I agree that Sam’s s view of his brother was very limited. I can agree that ultimately we hit the high point, so I can not be too annoyed but not too sympathetic either. That’s pretty much the perfect way to describe it.

    I see more of an arc for Sam at the moment, because he is connected to the angels and the angels are apparently the main arc. Dean is once again on the side because he’s Cas’s friend and Sam’s brother. I guess keeping a secret now qualifies as a storyline. Figures, eh?

    Castiel’s complete separation from the Winchesters is once again problematic for integrating him into the overall story. The choice ends up either having his story completely off-screen or interrupting the flow of the Winchesters’. Meh. I do think that there’s going to be more to what Zeke wants out of this deal, but we’ll see.

    Again, not hating the episode and what they did—it certainly felt better written and better laid out than a lot of the efforts last year, with less WTF moments than the S8 finale. It has some promise, suppose, but I’m not super-thrilled with the direction I fear they’re going to take it all. We’ll see.

    Comment by Huh — October 9, 2013 @ 4:16 pm

  50. Awesome episode. Did not see the angel possession coming.
    This is off topic, but has anyone else watched any of Sleepy Hollow. I won’t be watching it any more.
    It is a rip off of Supernatural:
    Instead of brothers there are sisters. One is the fighter and one wants to run away.
    Revelations, the four horsemen, the apocalypse and apparently a killer virus on next week’s episode.
    What show has already done those things and much better? Supernatural! Kripke should sue.

    Comment by mj — October 9, 2013 @ 5:20 pm

  51. I loved the episode! So much of the brothers! Death! Bobby! The awful “Castiel does laundry” can be muted (or watched later with the fast-forward button firmly pressed). And I love “Sleepy Hollow.” Yes, it has many of the SPN tropes, but it does it well (and with the SPN humor – please Mr. K. in your “Revolution” find at least one character with a sense of humor). Besides, Mr. Kripke is not going near a court on a plagiarism charge. Find the 2002 movie “Frailty” and tell me how he managed not to get sued for the early episodes of SPN. Father becomes a demon-hunter. One young son gladly takes up the charge. The other young son thinks he’s crazy. It’s a good movie, and goes a completely different direction than our show, but, as difficult as it is to win a plagiarism suit, I think they might have gone after SPN. Oh well, nothing new under the sun. And I love all of them.

    Comment by RS — October 9, 2013 @ 5:54 pm

  52. I actually like Sleepy Hollow, and I think it’s a compliment when other genre shows spawn from SPN, besides just being a part of the TV business. Having a spin-off is also a compliment and speaks of the lasting power of the show. SPN will make a lot of money for WB in the years to come.

    Comment by Sheri — October 9, 2013 @ 6:15 pm

  53. I don’t know whether to clap for joy, cringe in fear or whimper. Amazing premier! Now, someone hand me the whiskey.

    Comment by Shannon — October 9, 2013 @ 7:11 pm

  54. @Huh – Don’t forget Sam’s conversation w/Death. He told Death that he would willingly go w/him if Death could assure him that he would not be resurrected to cause any further pain to anyone.

    So, what was Sam talking about? Who got hurt when he was brought back from the dead? Dean. Bobby. Lisa. Ben. Numerous innocents. The world. Himself.

    Nothing good has resulted from Sam being resurrected so naturally he doesn’t want to run the risk of that happening again. This is a great look into Sam’s thoughts and ties directly to his feelings on the deal Dean made.

    Sam was never happy that Dean made that deal. We knew that back in S2. Sam was unhappy and upset w/Dean for the exact same reason Dean was upset w/John. Neither wanted to know that the deal maker was dying and going to Hell for them. Sam would have rather remained dead than Dean make that deal. I don’t see that as Sam being angry with or resentful of Dean. And I can’t honestly recall “Bobby” mentioning the deal at all. Sam simply feels if he dies, it would be best he remain dead b/c the times he’s been brought back, he’s unintentionally hurt his brother or doomed the world.

    You and I also disagree on Bobby’s role in the episode. I didn’t see Bobby as maligning Dean or even encouraging Sam to die b/c Dean is stupid or anything. Bobby was the practical side of Sam that was encouraging him to accept his fate. He as also the side of Sam that wanted to die.

    The episode showed two warring factions in Sam’s mind. We know Dean was the fighter. That’s what Dean does. He fights. He tries. He doesn’t give up even when a situation seems impossible. Bobby, on the other hand, was always much more practical. He’s the guy who is going to burn your bones before rigor sets. Haha!

    I saw Bobby encouraging Sam to accept death. He told Sam that Sam was in a coma and dying, and that it sucked but it was what it was. That is something I could see real!Bobby saying, so that’s why Sam imagined him saying that to him. Bobby represented the side of Sam that didn’t want to fight so he was giving reasons for Sam to give up (i.e., you saved people, you gave all you had, you fought the good fight, now you need peace). I didn’t see Bobby putting down Dean by encouraging Sam to give up and let go.

    As I saw it, a small part of Sam wanted to live, but when the answers didn’t come quickly, he very easily leaned toward dying. Sam has, IMO, led a pretty miserable life. So has Dean. I completely understand why either of them would embrace death.

    At the end though, no matter how much Sam wanted to die, he was completely swayed by fake!Dean’s plea and offer of a solution. It showed that Sam continues to implicitly trust Dean and that he has a lot of faith in Dean. That’s what solidified the brother bond IMO.

    Comment by Lisa1 — October 9, 2013 @ 8:18 pm

  55. Oh, and I love “Sleepy Hollow.” :-)

    Comment by Lisa1 — October 9, 2013 @ 8:25 pm

  56. @ Huh- I mean that Dean felt in the right to decide and
    use Sams body to be posessed by an angel. Dean didnt
    took a desicion over his own body, but over some one
    else, Sams body. Maybe it was enough just to let Sam
    himself fight for his life or decided if he wanted the
    angels help.

    Comment by LG — October 9, 2013 @ 10:43 pm

  57. @LG–I still wouldn’t qualify that as sacrificing Sam. Clearly Sam is not dead, and as far as Dean thinks currently, the angel is not going to be in control, but rather lurking behind Sam’s subconsciousness healing him. Now, clearly, this was wrong because Dean should not be making decisions about what happens to Sam’s body. That was wrong, full stop. I think it’s just the terms sacrificing Sam that threw me and that we are really in agreement.

    Comment by Huh — October 10, 2013 @ 3:13 am

  58. @Lisa1—I think you just made my point in saying that Sam wanted to make sure no pain was caused to anyone, including the numerous innocents, the world, and himself. To me, that’s less about Dean than the big picture, which makes sense because Sam is a big picture guy. At the same time, he is not and cannot be oblivious to the fact that if he’s in a coma, Dean has to be going crazy on the other side and will be devastated by his death. I just didn’t any sign that Sam was thinking about that, and I think we should have. Just my opinion.

    Sorry, but Sam still bringing up the deal after Dean has already suffered through 40 years of torture is to me on par with show having Dean bring up Ruby after Sam saved the world. If that’s something Dean needs to get over, then to me Sam needs to forgive Dean as well. I do think Sam through Bobby throwing the stupid deal in metaphorical construct Dean could be seen as resentful, because that’s how I saw it. Bobby did mention doing something stupid like selling your soul, so yeah. The resentment is still there. I appreciate the fact that show is finally willing to acknowledge that Sam has just as many issues with Dean as Dean has with him, and it’d be nice to see that addressed. Besides, bringing Sam back might cause pain, but Sam would really believe that not coming back is not going to cause Dean pain? He’d be terrifically unaware of his brother and is feelings to think that.

    Well, I really don’t like Bobby to start with, so I’m bringing bias to the table. But yeah, when “Bobby” makes sure to throw the deal in Dean’s face and sharply point out that Dean didn’t save him from hell, Sam did (which, nice, Sam, no acknowledgement that Dean was instrumental in getting you both out of purgatory? Tell me again, show, how Dean was part of the trials storyline), I sure do think he was maligning Dean. But that is in character to me, as is Bobby encouraging Sam to give up. Bobby as a character tends to be a “The sky is falling! Let’s give up!” character, for all his gruffness, so that part made sense to me.

    I can understand how Sam might embrace death. I just think that if the situation had been reversed, show would have made sure to show us that Dean was thinking about Sam and what would happen to him. I just wish they’d allow Sam to show the same brotherly concern in specific terms that they do Dean, because it feels imbalanced to me.

    In the end, I do agree that once “Dean” said he had a plan and basically told Sam he couldn’t live without him, Sam was willing to listen. To me, though, this episode doesn’t solidify the brotherly bond because Sam spent most of the episode trying to get away from Dean and die and because the actions at the end of the episode only set us up for more secrets and lies and fall-out and drama that tears at the brotherly bond. It doesn’t work for me, but I’m glad it works for you.

    Comment by Huh — October 10, 2013 @ 3:29 am

  59. To me, it was a slap in Dean’s face from the writers. It couldn’t have been plainer to me that Sam really wanted to die, finally be at peace. He only said yes at the end to appease who he thought was Dean. Sam wasn’t allowed to have what he wanted, he gave up what he wanted to make Dean happy. So to me, the writers wanted to paint Dean as a selfish, pathetic loser who has no value at all apart from Sam, so much so that he”l take Sam’s choice away from him, deny him what will make him happy, and mentally and physically violate him to do it.
    I know some of you might think I am reading too much into this, but to me,the writers went out of their way to make sure we knew that Sam was the heroic, wonderful guy, so much so that Death himself is,honored to come collect him in person, while showing Dean to be so desperate to cling to Sam that he’ll even violate his free will and his mind and body to do it. Sam is a great, heroic guy, I just don’t know why Dean has to be diminished in contrast in order to further get that point across. Dean is a heroic, honorable, great guy too. I just wish the SPN writers thought so. And nevermind that Dean has pretty much, save for the very brief time with Lisa, never had anything that he wanted for himself (and his time with Lisa was tainted by his heartbreak over Sam)Dean will be painted as the bad guy for taking Sam’s choice for happiness and peace away from him.
    Maybe I’ll be happier with Dean’s characterization as the season progresses. I sure hope so. I realize this was only the first episode, but after seeing the great promos, and Carver and Singer actually mentioning Dean by name this time, and after so looking forward to this,I felt really let down. Of course I won’t stop watching, but I really hope it gets better than this.

    Comment by roxi — October 10, 2013 @ 4:04 am

  60. @ Huh: I see what you’re saying, but Sam’s head trip was more a look into Sam, not Bobby. Both Bobby and Dean were Sam constructs, which gave an interesting look into what Sam thinks. Sam was arguing with himself, symbolically using Dean as the argument for continuing to live and fight on and Bobby as his symbolic argument for moving on.

    To me, Sam sees Dean as never quitting, always fighting on, an attack dog that never gives up on the fight. It also showed that Sam 100% trusts Dean, as he was asking for Dean’s plan for continuing the fight.

    Bobby was the side of Sam that believes he has given enough, that he has accomplished enough, his desire to get away from the job.

    When Dean couldn’t give him a plan, his decision was to move on. I was struck that in his talk with Death, there was no consideration of how that would affect Dean; i.e., still willingly will walk away from Dean.

    I was struck with the fact that Sam gave Dean no credit for his part in getting Bobby out of Hell, no consideration that Dean cut off his friend’s head to give Sam a way back with Bobby’s soul. Pretty self-centered, Sam. He obviously still has guilt about Dean selling his soul and spending 40 years in Hell for him.

    In saying this, I am agreeing with you that the episode did not solidify the brotherly bond, but then I don’t think the show has ever shown the brotherly bond to be what the fandom has created it to be.

    I am also agreeing with you that once Ezekiel, in Dean’s image, said he had a plan, Sam bought into the plan without asking questions about what the plan was.

    Comment by Sheri — October 10, 2013 @ 4:12 am

  61. @60- It isn’t Sam’s fault. I think that this is what the SPN writers believe. They are the ones who won’t give Dean credit for anything, as I see it. The writers and showrunner really, honestly, don’t seem to think much of Dean or like him at all, to me.

    Comment by roxi — October 10, 2013 @ 5:36 am

  62. I recently read an interview with JP and JA that took was published the day after the premiere aired. JP was so excited with the direction his character is taking in S9. When JA was asked about Dean, he said he thought JP would have fun playing two the two characters and switching back and forth between them. He then went on to say that Dean would find it hard to keep his secret with Cas in the bunker and Zeke doesn’t want him there because he poses a danger, so Dean asks Cas to leave, Cas meets a girl, and that is a fun episode.

    Not one word about what Dean, what his story would be, or that he was excited to play S9 out.

    It’s obvious to me that JA’s statement at Comic Con that Dean had no story was the truth. It does appear that his season’s role is to feel guilty about the great secret.

    I don’t think there is any plan for Dean to be a part of the season and, I agree, Carver and Singer are no different that SG in their Sam worship. I don’t know who JA pissed off, but he at least has a steady, lucrative paycheck. I still hope that Dean can at least remain an action figure in the season and that the apron stays permanently off.

    Comment by Sheri — October 10, 2013 @ 6:39 am

  63. @Huh – It’s funny because people often accuse Sam of being selfish and not caring about others the way Dean does so when I point out that Sam actually does care about bringing harm to his brother and the world at large, you interpret that as Sam not caring about Dean as much as you think he should. That’s weird to me. Maybe I am misinterpreting you. Sam cares. Period. He didn’t want to be resurrected to cause harm to ANYONE. I don’t see how that shows he wasn’t concerned with Dean and how another botched resurrection may hurt Dean.

    We can agree to disagree because I have no problem with Sam hating the deal Dean made. That deal caused Dean to be brutally murdered in front of Sam’s eyes and his soul dragged off to Hell where he suffered 40 hrs of torture. Sam would NEVER want Dean to make a deal like that again. Dean was upset in the S4 premiere when he thought Sam made a similar deal. The Winchesters are fine sacrificing themselves but balk when the other sacrifices himself. It’s hypocritical and a double standard, but I get it.

    Do I think Sam resents Dean for the deal and is secretly fuming about it? No. But does Sam think the deal was stupid? Sure. He said so back in S2. Sam doesn’t want Dean dying for him. Period. He never did. He doesn’t think his life is worth more than Dean’s. That’s all.

    And for me it is different than the Ruby situation. Sam hating the deal Dean made does not affect their daily lives. Sam is not walking around upset and angry b/c of the deal. He just isn’t. Beyond not wanting Dean to ever make a similar deal again, Sam’s and Dean’s lives are not impacted by the deal. However, if Dean doesn’t fully trust Sam or believe in Sam b/c of Sam’s choice to follow Ruby, that can impact how the brothers relate and interact with each other. And I’m not saying Dean would be wrong to be distrustful of Sam if that’s how he feels but that would have a larger impact on the brothers than Sam not wanting Dean to make any deals damning himself to save Sam.

    I understand that you wanted Sam to think more on how his death would impact Dean but I think we have to look at Sam’s state of mind. He stopped the trials because Dean asked him to stop. Sam was fine with dying to complete the trials. He simply didn’t care. As I saw it, Sam seemed to want to die. He wasn’t fighting very hard to stay alive. As he knew it, his body was dying, and there was nothing to be done that could stop it so why fight it? It’s not a matter of Sam not caring about Dean and how he’ll accept Sam’s death. Sam was being practical. Of course Sam cares. He knows Dean will be devastated but there was nothing Sam could do about that. The fighter in Sam had no ideas or plans, and we saw that Sam wouldn’t want a deal or some other crazy plan to remain alive.

    I don’t see why Sam should be faulted for accepting his impending death. You guys act as if Sam chose to have major organ failure and be on Death’s door! He didn’t. The trials were supposed to kill him. Death is upsetting for family members but what could Sam have done? The doctor said his organs had been burned and were
    Ffailing. Short of a miracle, Sam was dead. He could hang on and remain in a coma or vegetative state but I don’t see how that would please Dean. There was no coming back from Sam’s injuries. I’m sure Sam would have loved to see his brother one last time and hug it out with him but life doesn’t work that way sometimes.

    It would have been nice to see Sam say something re: Dean but I, personally, don’t need him to say what I already know. Sam loves his brother dearly and would hope that Dean would move on from his death in a positive. We saw that in Swan Song.

    Comment by Lisa1 — October 10, 2013 @ 8:50 am

  64. Great premier. I’m happy to see so many of y’all agree.
    The writing was scalpel-sharp, the action was good, and it seems like a really promising start for the season. Personally, I thought Misha’s acting stole the episode. His subtle change from angel to human was wonderful.
    Plus, ‘ladykiller’ Carver’s body count was down – only one female character mutilated, broken and dead. Oh the manpain. Of course she was the only female character, but at least it wasn’t the bloodbath that the season premier was.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — October 10, 2013 @ 10:23 am

  65. @ Huh- sacrifice might be the wrong world. The way I see it is that Dean had nothing else to give so he gave his brothers body. Up front it looks like this is a good angel, but we really dont know his real intentions,angels have shown no respect for humans lives from day one, and even good angels like Cass have gone wild and dark. Dean is an experience hunter, he should know that by now.I dont want to judge to fast. We will have to wait and see. I still want to think that if given the choice Sam would pick to live, even if that meant to be possessed by an angel.

    Comment by LG — October 10, 2013 @ 10:30 am

  66. @Lisa1–Yes, I think we’re miscommunicating in a way, because I don’t recall saying it was wrong to show Sam caring about the world. On the contrary, I said he was a big picture guy and caring about the world is in character for him. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want Sam to show a little more specific concern for Dean, though.

    To me, the situation you’re describing the deal count a lot like the way dean felt about ruby last season. I don’t think it was a fuming situation for him until the Sam didn’t look for him which brought up all the bad feelings from the past. The metaphorical construct of Dean insisting that he live brought back the feelings about the deal which brought the anger to the forefront. I guess I just don’t get the insistence that Sam has no problems with Dean when clearly he does. It’s normal for brothers had issues with each other but show seems to focus on Deans the Sam and never seems to show who stands with Dean as being something he needs to work on I would like to do that in the season beyond the current the debacle with the angel. Sam has issues with things. That’s just fact.

    I think the problem with bringing in Sam’s state of mind to the discussion is that when Dean felt suicidal it didn’t seem to matter. He was still blamed for thinking about leaving Sam alone so why should Sam be treated differently? Maybe metaphorical country Bobby should have been giving him that you don’t know how good it is to have a brother speech that Dean always seems to get. But yes, if show wants me to consider the brothers on even footing they need to treat them equally. That means Sam gets knocked for wanting to leave the same way Dean did when he was in this frame of mind.n honestly saying same return to the I have tried nothing and I’m all out of ideas for my mind was not that inspiring. but that is Sam’s friend of mine that time so I suppose it’s in character.

    I’m sorry what you guys am I supposed to be answering for here? I accept that Sam might be ready for death. That’s his choice and you deserve to be able to make it. But let’s be real–this is not real life, it’s a television show. People come back to wife to give the grand goodbye and worry about others from beyond on the show all the time. It’s not that I’m reasonable an idea. And yes for me I needed to see more concern from him about Dean specificly. If you didn’t need it great but I did.

    I am Not saying it was awful or that Sam is terrible. I’m just saying it could have been better for my personal satisfaction. I don’t think I have to apologize for that.

    Comment by huh — October 10, 2013 @ 10:49 am

  67. Wow, that one paragraph’s a mess. Dumb speaker function. Sam has issues with Dean. Dean has issues with Sam. That’s just the way it is. I don’t understand denying that Sam’s issues with Dean exist. That is all I’m saying.

    Comment by huh — October 10, 2013 @ 10:52 am

  68. @62- Great, so what you’re saying is that not only do we have a reason to be pissed at Dean for his decision regarding Sam, now Cas fans will be calling him a bastard too. I have already seen this in comments as well, that certain fans will hate Dean if he has to ask Cas to leave.
    So it turns out that this is Carver and Singer’s great story arc for Dean this season; have him be forced to make hard decisions that will cause everybody to hate him. And to think he’s doing it all because he loves Sam so much.
    I don’t know why I was so optimistic about this season. It couldn’t be clearer to me that the people that run this show just simply don’t like the character of Dean, but they’re stuck with him so they choose to write him in a way that will make the characters they do like and value look so much better by comparison.
    And shame on Jensen for apparently caring so little about his character that he just goes along with it. Yeah, the money is great and all, but I thought he cared about acting too.
    Ok, look I know it was just one episode, but I’m really hating what I’m hearing about upcoming plans for Dean. And some people actually thought and still think this is finally Dean/Jensen’s season?
    And for the record, my issue isn’t that Sam wanted to die. I totally understood why he was ready to take that step. My problem isn’t with him. It’s with Carver and Singer.
    If nothing else, if Jensen’s whole story arc this season is to be the guy everybody hates, at least, please let him find somebody who thinks the world of him for once, who wants to take care of him for once, who thinks he has worth and value for once. Anybody. Whether it’s Robin or Cas, I want someone to tell Dean how wonderful and heroic and special HE is, I want someone to love HIM.
    Ok, went a little nuts there. I know it’s just a dumb TV show. It’s just that, damn, I had really thought Carver and Singer were finally starting to see that Dean was just as important as Sam. When will I learn. Maybe it will get better for Dean. I sure hope so.

    Comment by roxi — October 10, 2013 @ 11:35 am

  69. @Sheri–You’re right, of course, that it wasn’t Bobby but the metaphorical construct of Bobby. That said, the construct was pretty in character so he represented all the things that irritate me about Bobby and it’s easier to dislike him. Maybe it would have been better to me if Sam rejecting fighting for his life was depicted by him rejecting Dean. I know it’s all symbolic, but show chose those characters for an emotional reaction. More fool me for falling for it. Other than that, I think we agree.

    Of course Dean doesn’t have a story beyond reacting to others and Jensen has nothing to talk about–why would we expect different? Definition of insanity and all that. Show has its patterns and it’s not going to change. We just have to take what we can get. Of course, any time show wants to prove me wrong . . .

    Comment by huh — October 10, 2013 @ 12:39 pm

  70. @LG–Then I think we are in agreement. I could see where Sam would have said yes with the right argument, but that of course doesn’t change the fact that it should have been his agreement to make.

    Honestly, I’d like to think show is going to do more than give us another double-crossing, moustache-twirling Angel. It’s become almost cliche for this show. Surprise me with something, Ptb, because nothing here really did.

    Comment by huh — October 10, 2013 @ 12:48 pm

  71. @Huh – I hear what you’re saying about showing some specific concern for Dean. I wouldn’t have been upset if Sam had done that but it also wasn’t necessary for me. I know Sam loves Dean. I know he would want Dean to not wallow in depression and sadness over his death. I know he would want Dean to move on and find some happiness and peace in his life. We’ve seen Sam express those feelings before, and I have no reason to believe his opinion has changed. That said, I love scenes where the brothers express their feelings so such a scene would have been fine with me.

    I don’t think I’m insisting Sam has no problems with Dean. I just don’t think Dean’s deal remains a huge issue for Sam, not like Sam’s betrayal with Ruby does for Dean. If that is a problem for Sam, the writers haven’t made that very clear. . . at least not to me. I could see how Dean could still have problems with the decisions Sam made in S4. Last year, I found the Ruby stuff OTT but not completely unbelievable. It was more unbelievable to me that Dean blamed Sam for being soulless when that was completely out of Sam’s hands. But Dean still being angry that Sam chose a demon over him was possible.

    Just so you know, I never faulted Dean for being suicidal or wanting to end it all. I do think they overplayed the “Dean hates hunting and is suicidal” arc a little too much for me, but that’s just my opinion. To be honest, I only watched the 100th episode the night it aired so I don’t remember much of what anyone said to Dean. I remember Cas beating him up. I remember Dean saying he felt Sam would say give in to Lucifer eventually. I remember them rescuing Adam (or trying to) but specific conversations/dialogue is lost. I didn’t like that episode, and I cannot recall any other times where people admonished Dean for being suicidal.

    I agree that the brothers have issues with each other. I think we just disagree on the nature of those issues, which is fine!

    Comment by Lisa1 — October 10, 2013 @ 2:40 pm

  72. “have him…to make…decisions that will cause everybody to hate him.”

    That was Sam’s story in seasons 4 and 8.

    Careful what you wish for.

    Comment by oh fandom — October 10, 2013 @ 3:02 pm

  73. @ huh: I agree with you on Bobby. For me, the character was ruined many years ago, starting with his whining in a wheelchair, his ‘suck it up, Princess’ speeches, and then the writers not committing to his death once that decision was made. I like Jim Beaver, but I’m tired of Bobby. I also think Crowley has been ruined as a character.

    In this episode, I also found exploring Cas’ humanness pretty boring and that the quick editing back and forth took all the tension out of setting up the mytharc story.

    That said, I didn’t go away from this episode upset with any of the characters. I thought it was a pretty solid episode….well, except if Carver and the other writers had any life experiences at all, they would know that Cas could have gotten a drink of water from a gas station or laudromat bathroom tap :) Yeah, I know, Cas fans would have been denied seeing Misha in his boxers.

    Anyway, addressing your concerns about Dean’s story, roxi. If they keep Dean as an action figure, I can watch the season. Dean saved an angel by killing an angel, banished two other angels, gave Cas the information he needed to save his life from an angel, saved Sam, all with the underlying sub-text that humans can fight and win against the more powerful angels…not to mention that he still has the King of Hell wrapped up in his trunk. If Carver continues to give Dean that much action, I will be satisfied, because I think that’s the most we Dean fans can get out of the bunch running the show.

    I am also not upset by Dean allowing Sam to be possessed or about the mind-wipe. The Dean Winchester I know would kill his brother for the greater good if there was no option left open to him, and I think he would then kill himself.

    The Dean Winchester I know has always been willing to make the tough calls and put up with the consequences.

    The Dean Winchester I know has his own innate sense of right and wrong; something he was born with, and he does what he needs to do.

    Does his trust Ezekiel? The Dean Winchester I know doesn’t trust easily, so I’m going to say no, not at this point, but he is using him to help Sam. If that goes south, Dean would kill Ezekiel without batting an eye.

    Will Sam be pissed? Yeah, but that’s not going to last long. Carver learned that lesson from last season.

    So, all said, I wasn’t unhappy with any character following the premiere, and I’m not unhappy with how Dean was portrayed. If he goes back to being useless and playing the female nurturing role (S6, S7 and S8), then I’ll be vocally upset by that.

    Comment by Sheri — October 10, 2013 @ 3:26 pm

  74. @72- I never wished for that. Not for Sam or Dean.
    And I forgave Sam for all of it, even last season. The comments I’m reading are stating that they will never forgive Dean, even though his decisions are coming from a place of desperation to save Sam. Sam’s decisions had nothing to do with Dean. But I still forgave him.
    And I’m sorry, but the writers never went out of there way to tell us how heroic, honorable, and special Dean was the way they did in this episode with Sam. The writers treat the characters totally differently, Sam’s the hero, Dean’s worthless save to support and care for Sam. His actions in this episode were painted as selfish and possessive,and I believe Carver and Singer want to show him that way. I don’t understand why they so dislike the character.

    Comment by roxi — October 10, 2013 @ 4:42 pm

  75. @Roxi – Who cares what those people think? As a bi-bro fan, do you know how much Sam hate I’ve encountered? Sam is practically despised for everything by some fans. He can’t ever win. Whatever he does or says is wrong to some people.

    I, personally, have ZERO issues w/what Dean did to Sam. I didn’t care when he killed Amy either. People were in an uproar both times, and I was just shrugging my shoulders. In the grand scheme of things, Sam is the one who makes the worst decisions and is written in the worst way. Dean did what he needed to do to save his brother. Sam will forgive him, and things will be fine btw them.

    Comment by Lisa1 — October 10, 2013 @ 4:56 pm

  76. @ roxi: There are always going to be those who only have eyes for Sam and dislike Dean’s character. These fans are going to rag on Dean about anything he does. The same goes for some Dean fans.

    The fans that are only focusing on what Dean did to save Sam and seeing it in a negative light are the same fans who give Dean no credit for what he did do in this episode and no credit for saving Sam. They seem to have forgotten that if Dean didn’t make this decision, Sam would be dead and without the mind-wipe, Sam would expel Zeke and Sam would be dead. They fanwank that Sam would have been okay with it, but that is not what was shown in the episode.

    Comment by Sheri — October 10, 2013 @ 6:33 pm

  77. @Roxi-I enjoyed the episode. I never once saw Dean as week, pathetic or a loser. I saw a man who made the hard decision to save his brother despite his own hesitations. I saw a man who was able to fight off angels bent on torturing him to get what they wanted. I saw a kick ass guy (even though he was kicked in the ass at one point!)fighting for his life, his brother’s life, and his friend’s life and succeeding. And I just loved that he had Crowley in the trunk of Baby!

    I don’t read people who hate on Dean or Sam, their opinions mean nothing. Why read something that will diminish my enjoyment of my favorite show? You can’t change peoples’ minds on how they feel about certain characters. Dean could be shown as a saint, and the same people would say, “bla, bla, bla, Dean is a jerk”. Same goes for Sam.

    I even enjoyed the Cas scenes even though I will agree it did slow down the action.

    I thought the way they showed Sam’s internal turmoil was done quite well. I had to keep reminding myself though that it wasn’t Dean or Bobby but all Sam. As hard as the Dean “voice was arguing to fight and live, made me see that Sam had a big part of himself wanting to fight and live. I find it strange that people wanted Dean to let Sam die. I’d stop watching the show if that happened!

    I try not to read so called spoilers because they are so often misleading. I think SPN does this on purpose! Gets us discussing things.

    Well, anyhow, I’m really looking forward to the rest of the season and am thrilled at how many people tuned in to watch it Tuesday night.

    Comment by twinster — October 10, 2013 @ 7:03 pm

  78. @Lisa1—We can agree to disagree, because after the disastrous S8 portrayal of Sam’s feelings towards Dean, I need all the love I can get for Dean from Sam. Sadly, show rarely feels the need to have scenes showing the brotherly love flowing from that direction, assuming that Sam’s love is just understood while Dean’s love needs to be proven on screen over and over again. So, personal preferences are fine. You didn’t need Sam to say anything, and I really did.

    Sorry, I may be bringing outside baggage to our conversation. I have had several discussions on boards over hiatus with bi-bro and Sam fans, and they all seem to fall into the category of Sam doesn’t really have issues with Dean—he forgives him, loves him, trusts him, the end. I think show backs that up to some degree, because they do seem to focus on Dean needing to deal with his issues with Sam and prove his love to his brother, but the reverse is rarely true. Again, I’d like show to admit that Sam has just as many issues with Dean that Dean has with him, and to me metaphorical construct Bobby pretty much showed that. Again, though, personal perspectives, and that’s fine.

    I don’t think it’s about whether fans faulted Dean for being suicidal (some did, some didn’t) or whether the Dean hates his life arc was overplayed (which it was, but show didn’t really want to think up anything else to do with the character so it’s soul-searching 8.0). The point is that show has been pretty consistent in having characters tell Dean when he’s down (which Dean has similarly told characters like Cas and Kevin) that the world doesn’t care if you’re broken—get up and do the job. To me, Sam isn’t exempt from that, except he was. Bobby, in whatever guise he appears, is pretty often used as the voice of show, and if he’s telling Sam that he’s earned his peace and is allowed to walk away, that’s pretty much what show wants us to believe. So why does he get the kid glove treatment when Dean gets “You’re not a person”? To me, that is admonishment over 5.18, and we saw it more than once. So to me, Sam should get the same treatment, a kick in the ass and a “Don’t you know how lucky you are to have the brother you do/how dare you not be there for him” speech Dean typically gets. Equality is good for everyone.

    Just out of curiosity, what issues do you see Sam having with Dean that he needs to get over, then? I’m not trying to be facetious—I’m looking for a different bi-bro perspective.

    Comment by Huh — October 10, 2013 @ 7:25 pm

  79. @Sheri—It’s always nice to find another member of the “Jim-love you/Bobby-take a hike” club. Show really eroded him as a character until he was exposition fairy/voice of show telling the viewers what to think/hunting Mary Sue, and now he just won’t die and go away. Crowley’s going the same way, though he’s not quite there for me yet. When show takes an interesting character and makes them one-dimensional, it’s sad for everyone.

    I think that’s always the problem with completely separating Castiel’s story from the Winchesters—either everything takes place off-screen and we’re left with a “Where did that come from?” or it’s on-screen detracting from the Winchesters. But hey, it’s never worked well yet,s o let’s do it again.

    I do think it was a solid episode in a lot of ways, but since show has very little in my goodwill bank I usually end up seeing all the ways they could screw things up and likely will. Finding out that Dean’s secret is still a secret in 9.8 leads me in that direction.

    If I can chime in, I think you’re right that action figure Dean is vastly preferable to guilty cheerleader Dean, though knowing the PTB that Dean’s only a 50 cent cab ride away any given episode when they want some cheap angst/drama. But yeah, I’ll take action Dean over you’re not part of this story Dean. It’s the best we can hope for.

    Comment by Huh — October 10, 2013 @ 7:33 pm

  80. @Huh – As a bi-bro fan, I think you may be right. Haha! I’m not sure if I can offer that different bi-bro perspective b/c I really don’t think Sam has any major issues w/Dean. None are coming to mind for me right now.

    At one time, he felt Dean was bossy, but I’m not sure if he still feels that way. We know he was jealous of Dean and felt Dean was John’s favorite. We also know Sam resented how much Dean followed John’s words and obeyed his words. We know he wanted Dean to “think for himself.” But again, I think a lot of those issues have been resolved.

    If it makes you feel better, prior to SC last year, I didn’t think Dean had any major issues w/Sam either. I thought Dean had forgiven Sam for the Ruby/choking incident and was fine w/Sam. SC showed that Dean was still harboring ill feelings toward Sam, but I understood why. Dean was upset (rightfully so) that Sam didn’t even bother to look for him. That was a betrayal to Dean and served to remind him of past betrayals he never really got over. I understand that and actually have no problem w/it.

    I certainly don’t feel Dean needs to prove his love for Sam. I think it is a given that BOTH brothers love each other and BOTH (when written in character) would do anything for the other. To me, that is canon. I do wish we’d get more FB or T&E speeches from Sam. I would not object to that.

    I would love to know what issues you think Sam has w/Dean? I, personally, feel a lot of the issues btw the brothers were addressed and quashed in S5 and S6. I didn’t like S7 as it aired but the brothers were okay w/each other. They were on the same page and didn’t have any issues w/each other. That’s why S8 upset me so much. JC reset the brothers to S1 settings for no reason. Suddenly, Sam hated hunting again and just wanted normal. Dean was all “gung ho” about hunting again and was having to pull Sam to his way of thinking. None of that conflict/tension was set up well. It was all very contrived and forced. That’s why it never really affected me. Carver wanted conflict simply for the sake of conflict. That’s all. He chose to ignore the previous 7 years of the show for his fake conflict. That led to the flat out character assassination of Sam in the beginning of the season w/that “not looking” crap.

    I never blamed Sam for that nonsense. I never started disliking and/or hating him b/c he didn’t look for Dean. To me, that story was simply too unbelievable for me to buy. It was so OOC that I could only look at it as “bad writing.” I know it’s “canon,” but it’s also completely unreal to me. Sam would never not look for Dean as evidenced by Dean’s disappearance the previous year. The story simply made no sense. “Sam” suffered b/c of Carver’s whims. Carver said he knew Sam would look for Dean but wanted to explore the idea of Sam not looking. That’s it. Carver had no plan or purpose behind Sam not looking. He just, in his words, wanted to do something different. That’s all. For that reason, I see the entire first half of S8 as an experiment that went wrong. From ATGB to the end, it was like a completely different season. And while all the episodes weren’t stellar, at least the 2nd half of S8 felt like the Supernatural I had come to watch and know. I can’t doubt Sam’s love for Dean b/c of that whacky, OOC, experimental period of Supernatural. Carver tried something, and it failed miserably. I believe he may have learned his lesson.

    Hmmm . . . I can’t recall very many times when Sam has been down and unwilling to fight. Honestly, the show rarely spends emotional moments w/Sam, which is why Dean gets more of the “kick in the butt” speeches. I’m trying to think of a time when Dean/Bobby/Whoever could have told Sam to keep fighting when Sam didn’t want to, and I can’t think of one. In S4, Sam was all about the fight. In S5, he never really stopped fighting. Ohhh. . . I just remembered one. In SI, Dean told Sam to stow his bad feelings b/c there was no time for it, and he needed Sam to stay in the fight. We’ve also seen Dean advise Sam to drink away his pain or to take a pill if Sam feels bad and keep it moving. I haven’t seen OTHOAP since it aired, but I think everyone was pretty nice to Dean after that episode. I don’t remember anyone yelling at him, and he was in a pretty dark place.

    I agree that Dean gets more of the “kick in the butt” speeches, but I think that is largely b/c he gets the bulk of the emotional scenes/dialogue.

    Comment by Lisa1 — October 10, 2013 @ 8:22 pm

  81. I haven’t watched the premiere yet. Do you think I should watch it? I don’t want to watch it if it’s going to make me angry and frustrated.

    Comment by bahar — October 10, 2013 @ 8:57 pm

  82. @Lisa1—See, that’s my problem with the writing in general—when they stack all the issues on one side it makes the brotherhood less believable to me. If Sam has no issues with Dean, it makes him seem not like a real person, but rather a two-dimensional saintly suffering under Dean’s emotional ravages. I’d like to think Sam has more depth than that, frankly, so no, I do think Sam has issues with Dean, just like Dean has issues with Sam.

    Nope, I think Sam totally still believes Dean is still bossy—as of last year, he was still assigning Dean blame for the course of his life. He resented Dean for being back in the hunt, when it was actually his own decision to leave Amelia and stay in the hunt for Kevin. That to me is one of Sam’s issues with Dean that he needs to let go of—he seems to think Dean has this power over him to make him do things he doesn’t want, and he really doesn’t, at least not any more power than he himself has over Dean. Sam ties himself up in knots thinking that there’s something better than hunting, that a normal life will somehow count more, but he also doesn’t believe that he can have that life, which is not necessarily an issue with Dean but definitely a Sam issue that needs to be resolved. I think from the finale it’s clear that Sam has issues with feeling that Dean doesn’t trust him, even when there are clear reasons why Sam has damaged that trust. We’ve seen that before with Sam, in S5. Look at 5.2—Sam was incredulous when Dean didn’t immediately trust him. In S8, Sam pretty well stated that he was going to complete the trials and die because Dean trusted other people more than him and this was the only way to prove himself, when he could have earned back Dean’s trust by being, you know, trustworthy. So Sam has issues with forgiveness—not in giving it, but not in understanding how others’ process to forgiveness might be different than his own. Sam originally stated that he wanted Dean to think for himself, but I think Sam can get resentful when Dean doesn’t agree with him, interpreting it as Dean being controlling rather than Dean having a different opinion.

    Actually, a lot of Sam’s issues with Dean come from the same place that Dean’s issues with Sam come from—the archetypal brotherly role. Sam can’t decide whether he resents being the little brother, thinking Dean bossy and untrusting and disrespectful of him as a parnter, but at the same time he thinks of himself as the little brother with no control and looks to Dean for guidance, giving him a lot of responsibility to shoulder while at the same time resenting not being the responsible one. Sam is largely unware of this, but I think he’s not particularly introspective at times—I saw the cut scene where Sam was surprised to be told he was like his father, and I was like O.o . . . Really? I think Dean is much more accepting of his archetype, but he takes it to such extremes that it leads to trouble, too—it does lead him to be too overprotective, to put Sam up on an impossible pedestal that hurts them both, and to make emotional decisions because he has to succeed at the one role he feels he is successful at fulfilling, no matter what the cost to them both. Dean identifies too much with his archetype, while Sam’s issues reside in the fact that he can’t make peace with it—he struggles between being a little brother and being his own man and sometimes has trouble seeing that he is both.

    Now, none of this—none—makes Sam a bad person or a bad brother. Dean clearly has issues with how to balance being his own person and being a big brother, as well as balancing being a big brother and being an equal partner to Sam, and I don’t think that makes him a bad brother, either. These are struggles the brothers will probably always have, but I do think Sam’s issues exist, just as Dean’s do. I agree that in S7 the brothers were mostly okay with each other, but they didn’t really interact much beyond the surface either (how I’m starting to miss those days, because at least we didn’t half-seasons of lies and drama and resentment undermining their bond). But these are issues that have existed within both of them since day 1, and it’s part of who they are. It’s part of what makes them three-dimensional characters. So yeah, I think they have issues with each other, but only one side seems to get acknowledged and called upon to change, and that’s problematic to me. But that’s all my perspective, so take that for what it’s worth.

    We can agree that S8 did terrible things to the brothers, but I can’t just dismiss it as non-real bad writing, because it is canon. It does have to be considered as part of the show and part of the characters, at least to me. Sam didn’t look, and he didn’t react well to Dean coming back, just as Dean didn’t react well to Sam’s choices while he was away and dredged up old resentments. That’s the way it is. I can’t ignore Dean’s bad choices or wave them away as bad writing, and I can’t do that for Sam, either. Show tried to shove it under the carpet and ignore their first half mess without fixing it in the second half, but that’s why it doesn’t work for me. If the dog takes a dump on the carpet, I want it cleaned up—I don’t want to walk around it and pretend it doesn’t exist.

    I think Sam doesn’t get down and unwilling to fight, but he does get down and is willing to die or walk away in a grand gesture rather than look for another way. We saw that in S4, S5 to a degree when he burned his i.d.s and was going to walk away from everything [to say nothing of jumping in the pit], S6 to a degree when he was nonchalant about risking the wall and his life to help random people because he felt bad about what his soulless counterpart did without his consent, S7 when he told Dean that there was nothing he could do and that he was going to die in the asylum, S8 finale, and now S9. So . . . actually, I’d disagree that Sam doesn’t get down and unwilling to fight, at least in terms of fighting to continue to live. That’s actually quite a number of times now that I think about it. I think Sam had to be told (or should have been told) in all of those occasions that dying wasn’t always the best answer—fighting to live for his family and others was. To me, choosing to sacrifice yourself when there were other options available can be interpreted as unwilling to fight on. That’s how Dean was treated in 5.18, and I really don’t see much difference between that and Sam’s attitude in some of the scenarios I just laid out. In saying that, I reiterate that Dean has had similar moments, so I don’t intend this to be a knock on Sam. He’s human, and he’s undergone horrific things. He’s going to have these moments. But when he does, he’s often praised for them, rather than getting the kick in the butt/how can you do this to your brother/life sucks-deal speeches pretty much every other character gets. And it’s not because he didn’t have emotional responses in any of these moments—it’s because that’s not how show chose to play them.

    So again, I’d just like a little equality. Dean deserves love from Sam, and Sam deserves love from Dean. If show is going to go with the everyone’s broken, suck it up mantra, it should apply to everyone. At least that’s my opinion.

    Comment by Huh — October 10, 2013 @ 9:38 pm

  83. I am really happy that supernatural is back again.The first episode was awesome. I did not expect to see an angel posses Sam. Supernatural always surprises us. There are always something unpredictable. The scene where Dean calls for angels was EPIC.

    Comment by serenity — October 10, 2013 @ 11:38 pm

  84. Can somebody please help explain bcz I’ve gone and fried my brain with this Ezekial/Sam thing. There are a few brain overheating moments in the show that contributed to my fried brain. Any elucidation would help
    1. Was it Ezekiel or Dean speaking to Sam in the hut with Death? When Dean/Ezekiel touched Sam after the conversation, Dean morphed into Ezekiel, causing my brain to fry because now I don’t know if Ezekiel can make an appearance whenever he wants in Sam and Sam will have no choice? I know I am not explaining myself well but hopefully someone will be able to say whether it was Dean or Ezekiel talking to Sam.
    2. If it was Sam inside Ezekiel’s body waking up in the hospital (when Dean and Ezekiel (in Sam’s body) was talking outside), then why doesn’t he (Sam) remember that when he is talking to Dean in the Impala at the end. It seems he can’t remember anything from the hospital. But why? Ezekiel wasn’t in Sam when Sam woke up as Ezekiel (you’ve got to love this show), so he should be able to remember that bit at least. Is Ezekiel just wiping out the whole of Sam’s memory at will? This is NOT good!!!
    3. How can the angels possibly be a threat when all Dean has to do is draw a blood sigil and send them away?
    4. It seems the show has done a 360 with Deans character. Remember season 4 when he was dead against possession of any kind and would rather die than be possessed by anyone least of all an angel! Remember when he would rather die from HellHound than have Sam resort to supernatural means to save him? So what has changed here, or has my brain just fried!!!

    Comment by tokoloshi — October 11, 2013 @ 1:14 am

  85. @ Huh #79: I’m right there with you on all points; especially on the good will point. The major problem with the show in the last few years has been the inexperienced, comic book writers. Instead of addressing that problem and getting some seasoned, talented writers on-board, they hired more inexperienced ones. I don’t see how the show can improve over last year when that very structural problem was exaggerated, instead of addressed.

    IMO, Carver is the only writer on the show that can put together a tight script, but two scripts a season isn’t going to cut it.

    As a showrunner, Carver still has his foot in Being Human, and is still writing scripts for that show, so I don’t see how things like pacing, plotting and trashed canon will improve over last year either.

    Yep, action figure Dean is the most that can be hoped for, if we get to keep him and there isn’t another neck-jerking mid-season course correction this season.

    Comment by Sheri — October 11, 2013 @ 2:18 am

  86. @Huh – Like most things, I think this is subjective. It’s not that I believe the brothers can’t have issues with each other; it’s that I thought they BOTH had resolved most of those issues. Until SC, I didn’t think Dean had issues with Sam, and for the most part I found Dean’s issues to be contrived but believable. By having Sam not look for Dean, JC created issues for Dean that weren’t there prior to the S8 premiere.

    I must also say I didn’t see Sam as blaming Dean for anything last year. That’s just not how the story played out to me. Dean couldn’t make him lose Amelia when Sam had left her before Dean returned. I know he was upset with Dean lying to him. I honestly forgot about that and have tried to forget everythng about the first half of S8. Haha! But all the things you cited are SAM’s issues, IMO. Again, this goes to perception but I was not one who saw Sam’s Sacrifice speech ad blaming Dean. I saw it as Sam recognizing and acknowledging that his failures caused his brother to rightfully lose faith and trust in him. I’ve long since held the belief (since S1) that Sam cares a great deal how Dean views him and what Dean thinks of him. Because I’ve always thought that, the speech just highlighted that for me. So, yes, it upsets Sam that Dean doesn’t trust him but Sam is not blaming DEAN for that; he blames himself.

    And a scene like the one in 5×02 is multiple-layered. Yes, Sam lashed out at Dean but I felt Sam was more upset with himself than Dean at the end of the day. In that moment, Sam was angry with Dean for not trusting him but we saw that Sam decide to isolate himself because Dean’s lack of trust was accurate. Sam was still lusting after DB and was a potential danger to Dean. He recognized this and left.

    I think we may have different ideas on issues the brothers may have with each other. After the S5 finale until the S8 premiere, I didn’t feel either brother had any issue with the other, and, frankly, I was happy about that. After two years of secrets and betrayals, I was happy to finally see them on the same page and working together. I believe a lot of their issues with each other were addressed. The relationship was fine, IMO, on both ends. JC went out of his way to reset the characters and raise “dead” issues.

    I think the disconnect btw us is you see massive, unaddressed issues btw the boys whereas I do not. In S7, I remember some posters talking about how the writers need to address the boy’s issues with each other, and I always thought, “What issues?” I don’t think the boys have all these unresolved issues, but that’s just my opinion. Do they have minor issues with each other? Sure. How could they not since they live in each other’s pockets but that’s normal. I don’t feel they have major, unresolved issues with each other. As I said before. Last year’s finale highlighted Sam’s own PERSONAL issues IMO, not problems he has with Dean.

    In S5, Dean wanted Sam to go. He understandably didn’t want to be bothered with Sam so Sam left. They were both in agreement that it was a good decision. Sam was by himself when he burned his ids. No one was there to admonish him. In S6, Dean did tell Sam how dangerous it was to pick at the wall. He tried to convince Sam to stop, and after Sam collapsed, he demanded that Sam stop so Sam stopped. The scene in S7 was similar to the one in Faith. Sam didn’t get angry with Dean or admonish him for accepting fate. Sam just looked for a miracle. I hated S7 so this is yet another episode I watched once but I’m pretty sue Dean gave Sam a “don’t give up” speech because that is in Dean’s nature. How many “kick in the butt” speeches has Dean gotten? I don’t recall very many. I hated the one from Bobby after the choking incident, but if you think about, Dean gets those speeches because he’s the leader. If the leader is down and out, what happens to the rest of the group? Cas was following Dean in S5. Bobby knew Sam was lost forever if Dean didn’t get back in the game. Dean is what keeps the machine going. If you look at it that way (which makes sense to me now that I’m thinking about it), it speaks well of Dean.

    Please note that I cannot recall every speech. Haha! I babe a feeling you may come back with one that doesn’t fit my theory :-)

    One last note on S8 – the first half was such a piece of crap that I don’t feel it deserves any respect or recognition. I’m not upset that Sam didn’t look. It upsets me that Carver didn’t even try to sell that story. It was a nonstory. It failed to recognize everything we’ve seen of Sam for the past seven years. It made nonsense. I could have bought Sam not looking if an actual story had been told but to believe that Sam just left the bldg and did nothing flies in the face of EVERYTHING I know about Sam. I just can’t ignore past characterization and the past 7 years because a new showrunner wants to try something new. I accept the story. It is what it is but it has nonimpact on how I feel about Sam. His character wad unnecessarily thrown under a bus. I can’t hate him for what were clear bad writing choices. I can fully immerse myself in a story when it’s good. Last year, I was too boggled down in the bad writing to see anything but that. Despite his claims, Carver knew it wasn’t working when the show changed mid-stream. His experiment failed, and he returned Sam to the character we’ve watched for 7 yrs.

    I also felt bad for Jared who kept having to field questions about Sam’s choices when he had no clear answers or direction from Carver. Jared knows Sam better than Carver and knew Sam would look for Dean. No wonder he disliked the Amelia arc and thought Sam not looking was OOC; it was!
    @tokoloshi – to answer your questions:

    1. I believe Zeke was in the cabin at the end. He told Dean that Sam wouldn’t say yes to him but would say yes to Dean. This part has caused some debate and maybe someone can tweet the writers and get an answer, but I thought Zeke appeared in Sam’s head as Dean, said something Sam could believe Dean would say, and then secured Sam’s permission. That’s when Sam sees Dean morph into Zeke. All angels need permission to enter a body. Sam said, “yes.” Others have speculated that Zeke brought the actual Dean into Sam’s mind to say rhe speech, but if that happened, I think it would have been more clear.

    And from the previews, it does look like Zeke can pop out at anytime, but for the most part, he’s allowing Sam to have control while he, himself, heals and then heals Sam.

    2. The person in the hospital is just the guy who gave permission to Zeke. That is NOT Sam. Sam is in his own body. He’s just sharing it with Zeke.

    3. Good point but I was happy he did it. Haha!

    4. Dean was desperate. He really didn’t want Sam to die so he made this controversial decision. I don’t believe his opinion has changed but desperate times call for desperate measures.

    Comment by Lisa1 — October 11, 2013 @ 3:19 am

  87. @ tokoloshi #84: My take on your questions:

    1. The show was murky on that one, but I take it as that was Ezekiel appearing as Dean. My opinion is based on the fact that we’ve seen angels morph in previous seasons, the pn-screen morphing itself, but mostly on how Death was portrayed in that scene. Death has no problem snarking at Dean, but no snarking here about Dean screwing up the natural order of things. Death was strangely passive in that scene, simply saying it was Sam’s choice whether to die or not. It’s also not in Death’s character to stroke anybody’s ego, but Sam’s construct of Death stroked his — offering validation that it was okay for Sam to choose to let go, much like Sam’s HeadBobby validated that he alone had saved the world and rescued Bobby for Hell and Sam’s HeadDean reminding everyone that Sam knows Dean played a big part in that.

    Ezekiel is weakened to the point of death and is in Sam to heal both him and himself, yet Dean can still communicate with him. I don’t think it’s a matter of taking over Sam whenever he wants to at this point, but as Ezekiel heals and becomes stronger, he could very well take over Sam completely, if that’s what he chooses to do. That sets up the question some fans have as to whether Zeke is a good angel or a bad one and will Dean have a problem with him as the season progresses. Dean knows that is a risk and don’t think that he completely trusts Zeke. He doesn’t.

    #2: It was Ezekiel’s human vessel that was left on the hospital bed. Angels are corporeal only when in their human meatsuit. Sam’s mind has been wiped of everything happening past being in the church with Dean and the angels falling during the S8 finale.

    #3: Dean learned the blood banishing spell from Anna, another angel in S5. It’s a powerful tool in the brothers’ toolbox, but nowhere near as powerful as the angels themselves. It has to be used sneakily, because angels can snap a human’s neck or shatter them into particles with a snap of the fingers. The blood spell only banishes them angels, not kill them.

    The brothers’ other tools in fighting angels is getting their hands on an angel blade, the angel warding sigils and; I was interested to see that Carver apparently has remembered that the brothers have angel warding sigils carved into their ribs, because the angels couldn’t find Dean until he did his open prayer and told them where he was.

    #4: The show has not done a 180 degree turn on Dean. Dean is absolutely 100% against possession. In this case, it came down to letting Sam die or allowing Zeke to possess, basically turning Sam into an angel hostage. I don’t call it an angel condom at this point, because Zeke doesn’t want to use Sam to accomplish something like the Apocalypse.

    Dean’s guilt comes from having made that decision and then keeping it a secret from Sam until Sam is strong enough to live on his own. This is in line with Dean always being willing to make the tough decisions and accepting the consequences for those decisions, as well as do everything within his power to save and protect Sam.

    Dean’s option would be to have let Sam die and then Sam’s soul would have either floated around this plane until he turned into an evil spirit (if the Gates of Heaven are closed to human souls) or he would become a hostage to Metatron, who is the only angel in Heaven at the moment. I am assuming that Sam’s soul would not be sent to Hell, but with Abaddon ruling in Crowley’s absence, she may have been able to high-jack Sam’s soul, as Crowley did Bobby’s, and hold it hostage to get Dean to do something for her — like turn over Crowley or help get all the angels (and humans, too) to bow down to her, thus fulfilling Lucifer’s plan of taking over Heaven, Hell and Earth.

    Hope this helps sort it out for you.

    Comment by Sheri — October 11, 2013 @ 3:31 am

  88. My whole point was, Sam WANTED to die. He really seemed to want to leave this painful life and be at peace. Dean wouldn’t allow him that, coerced him to stay with him so yes, to me, it does seem to portray Dean as more concerned with keeping Sam by his side at all costs than Sam’s happiness. This is why I think a lot of fans will end up hating him.
    I know there are always gonna be fans that dislike Dean just because, just as there are fans who dislike Sam just because but I wasn’t talking about them. I was referring to those in charge of running SPN. They seem to dislike one of their own main characters. I see it in the writing.
    But who knows, maybe the next few episodes will change my mind. Still trying to be optimistic.

    Comment by roxi — October 11, 2013 @ 3:48 am

  89. @86- This was what so many fans had issues with last season regarding Sam. It wasn’t that we hated Sam, on the contrary, we thought so much better of Sam than to buy that characterization of him. It just WASN’T Sam. It was as if Jared was playing a totally different character.

    Comment by roxi — October 11, 2013 @ 4:05 am

  90. But, roxi, we haven’t seen the real Sam since the end of Swan Song. Since then, every single season has given us a different version of Sam, and we get it again this season. That’s why I think Sam isn’t a viable character in his own right any longer.

    I’ve been accused repeatedly of hating Sam. I don’t hate Sam. I just don’t know what Sam’s character will be from one season to the next, and simply cannot get vested in a one-off character, and especially a character that has not been allowed to grow in characterization. Face it, Charlie has grown more as a character in a couple of seasons than Sam has.

    Comment by Sheri — October 11, 2013 @ 4:31 am

  91. Thanks Lisa1 & Sheri
    No. 2 Totally realise now that it must have been Ezekiel’s vessels owner :) waking up in the hospital.

    Sheri you make a good point regarding Sam. Love his character, but he has been so many different versions that it is difficult to know who he has become. I did not get the ‘not looking for Dean’ thing. (That was so out of character that it shone through the veil so to speak and you got to see that these writers have not consulted at all!! It seems as though they don’t know how to write Sam). As far as I am concerned, sometimes I feel that it damaged the relationship. They constantly have Sam do things that are out of character (what was Samelia about anyway and to have Sam abandon everything for it?), I feel each time it happens the audience loses a little more of what Sam stands for and what he is about.

    I seems though that we are getting a little of Sam’s POV though. I do respect his wish to leave the fight, and the writers did a very good job of redeeming him through Deaths eyes. So maybe all is not lost.

    I would love to see Dean in a kick ass mood again though, instead it looks as though we are going to get the guilty cheerleader role again. snooooore

    Comment by tokoloshi — October 11, 2013 @ 5:41 am

  92. I don’t think Sam has ever been a defined character. From the beginning he has been part child born to be a hunter which he has resisted plus had demon blood, a human in possession of super human powers, a hunter who had a desire to leave hunting, a soulless hunter and a guy attempting to find domestic bliss, a loyal brother and a brother who did not look for Dean. There is the thoughtful, skilled, humane Sam I like, but we’ve only had that Sam sporadically. To the degree that we have had character change to keep some freshness in the series, it has been Sam. I’m pleased that Jared has been willing, eager, an even enthusiastic to take on this constantly shifting character. It is the main reason I continue to watch.

    Arrow did a .9 rating as did its follow-up the Tomorrow People; The Originals did a .9 and Supernatural a 1.2 in the ratings. Tuesday beat Wednesday on the CW.

    And, if I am not mistaken SPN has been a part over the years of the CW’s best ratings lineup on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays, and Fridays.If there is a season 10, it must be on Monday.

    Comment by CaseyT — October 11, 2013 @ 7:30 am

  93. I don’t feel Sam has lost agency as a character. Yes, things have happened to him but I still I know who he is. The basics of his character haven’t changed. At least not to me. I still love Sam. I had my problems with him and his actions in S4 but I moved past them.

    I don’t think it takes too much effort to understand Sam and like him, but that’s just me. Sam is a good guy. He cares about his brother as well as others. He tries his best to do the right thing, but he’s made mistakes. He has self-doubts and insecurities. He can be arrogant and hypocritical. He’s human. As I said, Sam is a good man in my eyes. Dean is a good guy too. They are both heroes. I like them both.

    Comment by Lisa1 — October 11, 2013 @ 7:43 am

  94. @ tokoloshi @91: I actually accepted that Sam fell completely apart in S8 as the reason for not looking for Dean. Sam never does well when Dean is not around, and I believe his crappy attitude in the first half of the season was because he feared getting close to Dean again and losing him again. I didn’t like the abrupt turn-around following the mid-season break in trying to make Sam sympathetic by painting Dean as being wrong in his feelings and actions. There’s better ways to build up a character without tearing the other one down.

    I actually thought the entire S8 was a waste, though. The fans were told repeatedly that the brothers chose each other for the first time, and that doesn’t fly with me at all. When have they not chosen each other? They always do. Then, of course, they accomplished nothing and the whole mytharc was a ruse. Add to that the really crappy writing and the trashed canon, and I was on the verge of never watching again. I’m giving the show a chance now, but it’s on a short leash with my red line being Dean as Dean Cleaver, classical 1950’s housewife. I’m not doing that again.

    Carver opened up some potentially interesting stories, if he stable of inexperienced, inferior writers can pull it off. For instance, Hael’s wanting to possess Cas, because he vessel was “strong,” and Sam now being possessed by Ezekiel. What if the angels form bands of good angels and bad angels. The two Winchesters could be prime targets that the bad angels would be looking for to possess. Since Sam is already possessed, I would think the angels could be after Dean, since given his bloodline and him being Michael’s “one true vessel,” he should be the strongest vessel on the planet. Dean could lead the good angels looking to reopen the Gates of Heaven, purely as a human though.

    Honestly, I think they passed that opportunity up already by having the angels looking for Dean because he is Cas’ friend, but the speculating is fun.

    I do think Sam had a defined character throughout his entire 5-year story, and I agree that his actions have lead the mytharcs in S6 and S8. Not sure about S7, since I didn’t see either Winchester doing much of anything of importance and certainly no character growth for either.

    @ Lisa1: I agree Sam is a good guy and tries to do the right thing. I just have a problem with the writers never letting Sam learn or grow from his mistakes. Jared likes playing the different characters, but that very fact takes away the ability to have consistency of character. I think that is also part of the explanation for Sam not looking for Dean.

    Comment by Sheri — October 11, 2013 @ 9:28 am

  95. @92- I supposed that this is waht I get frustrated about. You’re right, there are so many different facets for Sam, and Jared plays them all so well. But for Dean, there’s just the one color; that of protective big brother and caretaker who merely reacts to Sam and Cas. I just wish that Jensen too would get to act different shades of Dean.
    It seems that something really bad has to happen to Dean in order for that to happen. I love Dean and am not specifically wishing bad things on him, but if there was some personal trauma, say finally having that long building up emotional and mental breakdown, that was directly about him it might give Jensen that chance. It would also give us that role reversal that so many of us have wanted to see, that of Sam becoming the loving caretaker of Dean. Honestly, if he is forced to have to live with not only the weight of how he had to trick and violate Sam, but also having to abandon his best friend and allow him to think it’s for shallow reasons,i.e., ‘You are no longer useful to us without your powers”, that weight could really be the final push that sends him over. I can’t believe he would not be terribly emotionally and psychologically scarred by all this. And that would make sense. It would be insanely unbelievable if he comes out of all this just fine and hunky dory.

    Comment by roxi — October 11, 2013 @ 9:39 am

  96. I too would love to see a real Dean story in which others, especially Sam, had to react to him. However, I don’t see Sam’s storylines as stolen from Dean; that’s simply this Dean v. Sam crap. The writers ought to be able to give both an engaging plotline. I have never understood blaming Sam/Jared because Dean remains caretaker and main Winchester contact with almost every recurring or visiting star. Besides, I think J2 have real input into their stories by now. Surely, by now the network, show runners, and writers, all recognize that this series is a goldmine for them and Warners, and that without Jensen and Jared, the gold runs out. Jared seems to welcome changes and challenges playing Sam and he gets that; Jensen seems to want to keep Dean: Dean. Have to believe, if Jensen asked for a less predictable role, he would get it. I don’t blame Jensen for being comfortable with his role; he ought to get what he wants.

    Comment by CaseyT — October 11, 2013 @ 12:04 pm

  97. I would just be happy to see Sam acknowledge his understanding of and concern for Dean, but at this point I think the franchise is that Dean is Sam’s caregiver and Sam is the little brother.

    I don’t really want to see different versions of Dean. I was hoping to see DarkDean last year when he came back from Purgatory, but I think that opportunity has passed. That’s why I only have hope that Dean stays an action figure and a leader. If the writers can maintain that, while letting Sam play different versions of Sam, then I will manage to watch until the end of the show’s run.

    I don’t think anyone doesn’t realize that Sam’s problems in the past have been a writer’s problem. That doesn’t mean that some can’t be estranged from Sam’s character, as I am, and it certainly doesn’t have anything to do with Jared.

    I have freely admitted for years that I am estranged from Sam’s character. I’d like that to change, but I’m not so stupid as to know that it will not. I’d also like to have realistic support characters, like Ekeliel, rather than Garth and Charlie, but that’s not going to change either. What that means is that I am no longer obsessed with the show, but I do enjoy it (as I don’t almost all other TV programming), so that’s a plus.

    And I am really happy with the good showing SPN did on it’s premier. I hope the numbers hold and even increase.

    Comment by Sheri — October 11, 2013 @ 12:49 pm

  98. I think people are forgetting that Dean grew up a hunter. The reactions that people are expecting from Dean’s character aren’t really appropriate to the role. They’re the things that well-adjusted people do and go through…he’s neither. That’s why Sam goes through things and Dean does not. Dean’s life is not a happy one. He doesn’t even have any particularly good memories to hang onto..other than those of his brother. He’s been through so much…what could realistically phase him anymore? The writers would have to ignore all of this to give the people asking for more variance in Dean’s character what they want. And while there’s an outside chance they could pull it off, it’s not very likely. The sacrifice to the quality of the character would be too great.

    Comment by Mythos — October 11, 2013 @ 12:56 pm

  99. I don’t blame Sam or Jared for the SPN writers continued diminishing, at least in my view, of Dean’s character. I don’t know why you think that.
    It’s always been the writers and showrunner I blame. Jared has nothing to do with it, and I’m glad he does get such meaty acting showcases. He does a great job with them. I only wish Jensen would get the same.
    As for Dean’s contacts with other characters, I see them as just that, contacts. I never understood why some feel he has all these friends. To me, I’ve only seen one actual friend, Cas, who he’s about to lose according to what I’m hearing. I consider Charlie and Garth to be equally friends with Sam. In fact, to me, Charlie is more a peer of Sam’s because, like Sam, she views Dean as a big brother figure.
    So what I’m getting here is that I should never expect for Jensen to have anything different to show in Dean’s character than Sam’s caretaker, and I should be fine with that. I guess I just disagree with all of you on this.
    But I’m sure there will be some upcoming episodes that I will enjoy, so I’m trying to keep an open mind.

    Comment by roxi — October 11, 2013 @ 1:25 pm

  100. Also, I don’t think Jensen is all that comfortable in his role. He complained about it last season. That’s why I don’t understand why he keeps going along with how his character is treated. I guess short of leaving the show, there’s not much he can do about it.

    Comment by roxi — October 11, 2013 @ 2:30 pm

  101. I don’t see anyone saying you can’t hope or expect more for Dean, Roxi. You certainly can. I wouldn’t mind a mytharc story for Dean either, but I also can’t say I’ve been upset w/the way he’s been written for the most part. I feel Dean has always had a role on the show. I’ve been less frustrated with the storytelling for Dean than for Sam over the years.

    Like CaseyT, I also feel Jensen would get the mytharc if that’s what he truly wanted. Jensen is just as important to the success of the show as Jared. If he threatened to walk if he didn’t get the mytharc, I’m sure he’d get it. From all the interviews I’ve read or seen on YT, Jensen prefers Dean to remain Dean. That’s not to say he wouldn’t like an acting challenege but he may not want to do something like that for half a season. We really don’t know. The writers don’t seem to want to veer far from what they know and what has worked in the past. I think they view Dean as the fully fleshed character and Sam as something malleable, something that can be changed to fit the plot.

    I feel all the guest/recurring stars are closer to Dean than Sam, which is why it feels like Dean has friends beyond Sam. Other than Dean, there is no one I would call Sam’s friend. Garth, Charlie, Castiel, Bobby, Ellen, Jo, Krissy, Benny – all those characters mainly associated with Dean. They may acknowledge Sam’s presence but they rarely had extended scenes w/Sam. In 5.02, Ellen barely acknowledges Sam. She didn’t even say hello to him. Last year, Sam left the room so Dean and Krissy could share their private moments. It was weird. I think Sam needs a friend beyond Dean but don’t believe he will ever get one.

    Comment by Lisa1 — October 11, 2013 @ 2:51 pm

  102. That’s my point Lisa. They merely associate with Dean. I wouldn’t call Charlie, Garth, or Krissy friends. Ellen and Bobby equally interacted with Sam. Jo was in love with Dean but the writers nixed that. Benny was only a friend for a short time.
    So the only one I really consider Dean’s long term friend is Cas, and that’s about to go out the window if the info I’m hearing is correct. Don’t forget in the beginning Sam had college friends whereas Dean had none.
    I feel that Kevin could become a close friend with Sam. He also had more of a connection to Jody, as well as Ash. Even Crowley has a closer connection to Sam.
    All of this doesn’t change anything for me as far as the perception the writers want us to have; Sam has multiple abilities, and is a worthwhile, smart, hero. Dean has zero value except to save, cater to, and exist for Sam. Nobody is telling Dean how great he is. I just wish, finally, somebody would make Dean the center of their world, care for Dean, take care of Dean, love Dean.I don’t understand why it’s so hard to give these characters equal value.
    But I don’t want to keep raining on everybody’s parade here. I just disagree that there is equal treatment form the writers and showrunner to Sam and Dean. Even Cas gets his own storyline, and a love interest right out the gate! The writers feel HE’S worthy. But not Dean.

    Comment by roxi — October 11, 2013 @ 4:06 pm

  103. @Lisa1—Oh, I agree everything is subjective. If you see the brothers having resolved their issues, then that’s your perspective, and that’s great. I don’t feel like show resolves much of anything between the brothers as much as they shove it away when they don’t want to deal with it and pull them back out as a quick path to drama/angst when it’s needed.

    Again, perspectives vary. I very much saw Sam acting resentful of Dean pulling him back into hunting with his “I want my life to count” and “You want me here, I’m here.” Agreed, Dean didn’t make Sam lose Amelia, but he still behaved as if hunting was holding him back from what he wanted, and Dean was the one he viewed as pushing him back into hunting, despite it being his own choice. I did see some blame being thrown in Sam’s Sacrifice speech, because if he doesn’t complete the trials and die who knows who Dean will trust over him? Yep. Sam barely spoke of his failures and how they affected Dean–his focus was pretty much on how his failures and Dean’s reactions made him feel. Plus, it’s hard for me to buy that Sam suddenly believed he’d let Dean down in S8 when he spent the previous 22 episodes denying any responsibility in their conflict at all.

    I agree that Sam cares about how Dean views him and what he thinks of him. At the same time, he definitely projects his feelings onto Dean sometimes, and he does need to stop doing that. He projected his need to fulfill the trials as something Dean needed him to do, and it never was.

    I can agree that by the end of 5.2 Sam came around to the idea that Dean did have reason not to trust him, but that wasn’t his initial reaction to Dean not immediately forgiving and trusting him, and that’s something we’ve seen more than once. At the end of The End, Sam says he’ll do whatever he has to to prove himself to Dean, but by the end of Fallen Idols he pretty much lets Dean know he can either stow his issues with him or he’ll leave. By SC, Sam was pretty clear with his ‘get over it or I’m leaving’, and he had done nothing at that point to try to make things better. He just wanted Dean to get over it, period. We see that from Sam, and I think it’s left over little brotherism—You gotta forgive me, Dean, because you’re the big brother. That’s an issue Sam has with Dean to me–he still sees him as the indestructible big brother at times so he doesn’t seem to register the pain he can cause, and therefore doesn’t understand why it takes Dean time to get over.

    You’re right—I don’t think S5 really addressed a lot of the problems between the brothers, because to me we never really saw them working towards fixing them. It just suddenly all better for the finale, and then we skated on that for the next two years because Sam was rarely Sam or rarely in his right mind and Dean was still mired in depression mode, so Dean and Sam didn’t face much conflict between themselves or deal with many issues. They couldn’t afford to, because too much of their energy was dedicated to getting out of bed in the morning, so to speak. This season they were supposed to have started the season stronger as individuals, and they might have dealt with some of their issues, except show punked out at the bad reaction and pretended the wreck they caused wasn’t there.

    It’s okay that we have different perspectives, and we can agree to disagree. I do believe Sam has issues with Dean, just like Dean has issues with Sam. You don’t. That’s fine with me.

    Sorry, but no—Dean didn’t want Sam to go, so Sam left in S5. At least, that’s not the way it went down to me. Sam declared he was going to leave because that’s what he felt was best, and Dean agreed. Sam was even surprised that Dean did agree, but that Sam’s choice was his choice, not a result of Dean not wanting to be bothered with Sam. Dean was willing to work with Sam in 5.2, despite his trust issues, but when Sam declared he couldn’t hunt with him the way things were Dean agreed and let him go. Sam couldn’t handle the situation, somewhat understandably considering what had happened , so he left and burned his i.d.s. Still, he was walking away, leaving his brother to deal with the apocalypse while being hunted by angels who wanted to torture him. Someone should have been there to admonish him and give him a kick in the butt speech, frankly. In S6, Sam knew from Dean how dangerous it was to pick at the wall, but Sam stated outright that if it fell, so be it, but he was going to make things right with the random people he’d hurt. He was willing to give up his life there for the grand gesture. In S7, Sam told Dean point blank he was going to die and there was nothing he could do—he wasn’t going to fight for his life and he certainly was discouraging Dean from doing so. I agree that Dean probably gave him a don’t give up speech, but that’s not a kick in the butt, let me insult you and pretend it’s character building speech that Dean gets from characters like Bobby, Eliot Ness, et al.

    I don’t understand why being the leader means you don’t get any understanding or leeway from your family and friends when you’re down. Dean is basically considered suicidal in 5.18, and rather than being shown understanding he’s beaten up and given a guilt trip by Bobby about how he only stays alive because Dean wants him to. That’s a screwed up bit of responsibility to lay on a person whom you consider suicidal. I think it’s the job of the others in the group to support the leader just as it’s the leader’s job to bolster them, not to bawl him out for a moment of weakness. If being a leader means your friends saying, “We can’t afford for you to have a weak moment so you better suck it up and deal with it”, being leader is a pretty undesirable position to me.

    Again, sorry, but I can’t ignore canon just because it doesn’t work for me. It’s there, and show should have dealt with it better. Sacrifice didn’t cut it for me. I’m sure it works better your way, but it doesn’t cut it for me. I wish it did.

    Comment by Huh — October 11, 2013 @ 4:13 pm

  104. I certainly agree with Lisa1 that most of the characters have been closer to Dean–in fact, almost every one. Perspective is important, but I simply cannot see how someone can see either Krissy or Charlie equally close to Sam as well as Dean. The scenes between those characters and Dean far outweigh in number, depth ,and sharing those with Sam. Castiel(the long-running third character) and Benny–no contest. They are Dean’s close friends. Are they “friends” of Sam? Castiel, yes, but only because Sam has forgiven him for breaking that wall, trying to kill Sam. And, while I still find that level of forgiveness almost Gandhi-like; Gandhi is Sam’s hero, and Castiel is not close enough to Sam to generate the feelings of betrayal Dean has toward Castiel when his angel screws up. Dean is so close to Castiel that Castiel’s murders and mayhem cause him (Dean) emotional stress; Sam simply shrugs and goes on even when Castiel has tried to murder or mime Sam; Sam doesn’t internalize Castiel’s transgressions. Bobby and Dean seemed always to have had a genuine father-son relationship, Sam much less so. Dean’s “You’re not my father!” really stung Bobby. Bobby and Dean are (were when Bobby was alive) so close both could lose their normal control and yell at each other because they care about each other so deeply. I don’t think Sam would have any occasion or justification for saying “You’re not my father.”, nor would it have nearly the same impact on Bobby if Sam did say that. Bobby and Sam are close, but not like Bobby and Dean. Ellen is the only one who seemed to me to be equally close, but she joined in the rather silly “Sam caused the apocalypse” bit, which I found out of character for her. She had always been depicted to have the maturity, experience, and wisdom that should have led her to know that nothing like the apocalypse is caused by one person and one act.
    I don’t think the second characters being closer to Dean has shown any discrimination or lack of worth about Sam or superiority about Dean. Dean is simply more likable. What you see in Dean is what you get. He knows who he is and is not guarded in his opinions–not at all afraid to let people see that he sometimes lacks some social graces or is missing a university education. People like honest, out-front people. In addition, for all his rough edges, Dean likes people; he respects children, takes them on in their own terms. Dean is someone you’d like to know. Jensen has done a fantastic job crafting and keeping that Dean. One of the reasons I object to Destiel so much is that a Dean as a closeted gay man with an on-going partner is so the reverse of who Jensen’s Dean is. If Jensen’s Dean was having a gay relationship he would be out and proud and those who object could go to hell. Dean is not afraid of being who he is, that’s the essence of Dean to me.
    Sam is a more complicated character to me. He has never been sure of who he is or what he really wants. He is more guarded and self-contained. I don’t think he would ever use that old cliché “I’m a people person.” which often means I need the constant validation of everyone around me to function. That is not Sam. I can easily see why the characters are more drawn to Dean than Sam. I love Jensen’s Dean, but I do find Jared’s Sam more interesting. I think Jensen and Jared know their characters and will not permit even Carver’s minor league cast of writers to screw them up. Gone on too long. Just my opinion.

    Go Cardinals!

    Comment by CaseyT — October 12, 2013 @ 7:41 am

  105. maim not mime–I always need an editor.

    Comment by CaseyT — October 12, 2013 @ 7:47 am

  106. @104- Well, I guess to me just being acquainted with them doesn’t make them friends, it’s not like Dean is hanging out with any of these people.
    To me they are equally interesting, but of course you have every right to your own perspective.
    As far as Dean being ‘out and proud’, here’s where I disagree. Not because he’s homophobic, but because it’s been drilled into his head his whole life to be tough and super manly, he might through no fault of his own buy into the stupid stereotype of what being a ‘real man’ means. I could see him being for the most part straight but having a smaller, repressed part of him that may also be attracted to men, however small that part is, and pushing it down and denying that part. It would take really having a very strong spiritual connection to bring that side to the surface, and if that connection was ever gonna be with a man, it would definitely be Cas. But I’m almost 100% positive this will never happen and since they’re giving Cas a female love interest I think it’s clear that the writers don’t see Dean or Cas as anything other than completely straight.

    Comment by roxi — October 12, 2013 @ 10:51 am

  107. As long as this show in on the air, Dean will always take care of and protect Sam. Sacrifice showed this, as well as showing that Sam absolutely has to be No. 1 in Dean’s eyes.

    This show will never have Dean enter into a gay relationship, despite a vocal minority of fans constantly calling for it. Sam is No. 1 to Dean and Sam needs to be No. 1 to Dean. That’s what the basic premise of the entire show and it’s history is.

    The reason Dean has had the majority of interaction with minor characters is that (1) he is the older brother and leaders\; and (2) Sam has always had the mytharc, so they had to give Dean something to do.

    The show has tinkered with some interesting relations between Dean and other characters — an intriguing relationship with Death, a love/hate thing going on with Meg about Dean, and Crowley’s respect/interest in Dean. Those would have been really good sub-plot, but they went nowhere and they’re not going to go anywhere, just as the desire for a gay relationship is never going to happen.

    Crowley is now more aligned with Sam (their ‘bonding’ in Sacrifice). Death is now praising Sam for a life well-lived; whereas before, he scolded, but seemed to have some respect for Dean — scolding Dean even for Sam’s screw-ups.

    No do I believe the show will ever give either brother a permanent love interest. The fans don’t want it and it goes against the basic franchise of a successful show. They may toy with periodic hook-ups, and they may even slowly start setting up the brothers living happily ever after once the show ends, but this show will never turn into The Vampire Diaries.

    Basically, I don’t understand the continual need to daydream about such aspects. There’s other shows out there that can be watched for these aspects, along with SPN, if that’s what fans want to see. If they are looking for this in SPN, I just think they are going to be continually disappointed in what is being shown.

    Comment by Sheri — October 12, 2013 @ 1:09 pm

  108. Sheri, I had gave up on Dean getting any real love interests, an important storyline, having the SPN PTB give a rats ass about him etc. But at least he was deemed a likeable character. Now, with Carver’s awful plot twist, I am reading blog review after review of Dean’s actions being the most horrible and despicable thing they’ve ever seen anybody do on this show, that Dean didn’t truly do it out of love, that his prayer to Cas was just to sweet talk him in order to get what he wanted,that he’s a manipulative user, a rapist, a selfish bastard etc. and poor wonderful Sam for having such a horrible brother. And for everyone thinking that it’s not fair that Dean is closer to Charlie than Sam is, well, I’m sure she will hate him just as much when she finds out.And of course the Cas fans will jump on board when he has to ask him to leave. In short, it seems that the PTB got back at all us Dean fans for complaining about his lack of story by making him commit an act that he can never be redeemed for. The blogger over at the Home Planet, a Dean fan, was so upset by the premiere that she decided this was it for her recapping.
    So maybe I won’t be posting much anymore, since Carver and Singer so destroyed Dean’s character that I’m don’t see how I can ever enjoy the show now and maybe this is it for me watching.
    I really hope to see Jensen in another, better role in the future. He deserved so much better as and actor than what SPN handed him.

    Comment by roxi — October 12, 2013 @ 4:06 pm

  109. @ roxi: Well, if that’s what some bloggers and reviewers got out of the episode, they shouldn’t be recapping the show at all, as far as I am concerned. While I can understand some fans thinking it was a horrible thing, I find their reasoning skills sorely lacking or, at the least, their interpretation of the script not what I saw at all.

    As I said before, if Dean would have let Sam die:

    1) Sam would be off the show, or GhostSam that would turn evil. Do these people really want Sam off the show? I’d think they would rather see him as an angel, rather than GhostSam or gone entirely.

    2) Where was Sam’s soul supposed to go, since the Gates to Heaven are closed. If Heave isn’t closed to humans, then Metatron would have Sam’s soul hostage.

    3) If Sam went to Hell, there awaits Abaddon, and she wants angels, humans, and demons to bow down to her. What a great hostage Sam’s soul would be for her.

    4) Sam and Dean both know the state of Heaven and Hell. Sam, it appears to me, is still very much half-in and half-out of hunting; thus, weighing if it is time to give up. He didn’t get a plan from HeadDean, and HeadBobby gave him the affirmation he was looking for to just quit. Dean’s not there. What Dean was is out of options, this bad one being the only one left. Do these fans really think, after Dean reaffirmed to Sam in Sacrifice that he will always be No. 1 to Dean, that Dean would let Sam just die given all of the bad options mentioned above. Dean even reaffirmed to Sam at least once, maybe twice, in this episode that Sam is his one true focus (“There’s no me if there’s no you”…and I hate that line). That’s when Dean decided to trust Dean and Zeke possessed him.

    So tell me, what is so terribly awful about that? That Dean didn’t fess up to Sam as soon as Zeke went dark? Given the head trip to see exactly where Sam was, that he was giving up, Zeke made perfect sense in saying that it was a 50/50 of Sam expelling him straight away, and then we’re back to do these fans want Sam off the show permanently or playing Bobby’s ghost story out (which could only go on so long).

    I just don’t understand the logic of “Oh, this is so terrible of Dean, I just can’t take it.”

    Personally, I have full confidence that if Zeke decides that he actually does like it in Sam, Dean will find a way to expel him or kill him. Dean has no qualms about killing angels, and Zeke saw that for himself.

    I don’t know whether Zeke is good or bad. I don’t know if he is manipulating Dean to get into his meatsuit or not. It would be nice if he was a good angel for a change, wouldn’t it.

    I suspect Sam will be pissy momentarily, or for an episode, but there is a chance that he will at first be mad, and within the same episode be okay with it.

    I’m not looking forward to Dean being a guilty cheerleader AT ALL. It is my hope that Dean will be like he was with Amy and tell Sam to not be a little bitch. It was the right call, although, personally, I wouldn’t mind seeing Tahmoh Penikett
    (I can’t ever remember the spelling of his name) stick around for a while.

    As I said, in this episode Dean saved an angel, killed an angel, banished two angels, saved Sam, and gave Cas the info he needed to save himself. I think that’s a good showing for Dean given the last few years, and I hope they keep him as this action figure and tough decision maker.

    I also thought Carver’s script was an excellent look at the two brothers’ personalities. Even in Sam’s head, Dean always keeps fighting, never gives up, never quits. Sam looks to Dean for the plans; he depends on Dean for his guidance. When he couldn’t find a plan right away, he was on the verge of giving up. (Yet, he started the episode ready for the fight, if you recall.)

    Sam, on the other hand, overthinks everything, weighs his options, and absolutely depends…needs actuall…Dean. He also carries a great deal of guilt for his past actions, and it still very much bothers him that he couldn’t save Dean from his Hell deal (the talk with Death that no one can bring him back).

    I thought it was an excellent script. I don’t know where this bunch of inferior writers will take Dean after this, and I hope it’s not into guilty cheerleader and wet nurse Dean, but it was a good start for Dean’s character. I hope it continues through the season. If not, prepare yourselves for some major bitching on my part. Right now, though, I was okay with all the characters and see a lot of possibilities for a good season. I saw that last year, and things went down the drain in the worst possible way. Let’s hope they’ve learned some lessons and it doesn’t this season.

    Comment by Sheri — October 12, 2013 @ 5:28 pm

  110. I know Dean had to save Sam or there’s no SPN, I just don’t understand why these writers couldn’t have come up with a better way to do it that didn’t force Dean into this violation. I really do feel that those in charge really wanted to turn fans against Dean, maybe for dramatic effect, but to me, they really don’t care for the character and want to destroy him. The one blogger in fact stated how angry she will be if Sam ever accepts Dean’s apology. It’s a whole shitstorm of hate for Dean now all over the fandom, now even his legendary love for Sam is being questioned , as is whether or not he really is a true friend to Cas or just uses and manipulates him.
    I could still enjoy watching even as Dean/Jensen got thrown to the sidelines so consistently, but now that in so many fans eyes he has committed rape,and for what they think is selfish reasons, I am afraid that there’ll be no way to redeem him, even if he did do it to save Sam, even if he does nothing but good the rest of his life. At least that’s how so many bloggers, reviewers and fans seem to feel.
    The best I can hope for is that if they’re handing this crap to Jensen, the least these ass clowns can do is actually allow him to make the most of it and he finally gets that acting showcase I’ve bitched about him not having for so long. I just hope he acts the f-k out of it and maybe, someone in the mainstream will finally take notice.

    Comment by roxi — October 12, 2013 @ 8:17 pm

  111. First off, I don’t consider the only option left (as stated in the show through direct narrative) as a “violation.” Zeke said it was “the best of a bad situation” and Dean said for Zeke to give him the “bad option,” and they would mind-wipe” until he figured out a way to tell Sam” without Sam expelling Zeke before being healed enough to live on his own. The show clearly left the matter of “informed consent” to not only be debatable, but be relatable and believable.

    The opinions of other bloggers or fans really doesn’t sway what I think of either character or what upsets me or doesn’t upset me. I don’t give that control of my entertainment enjoyment over to other people.

    Maybe Dean will be “unlikeable” this season — Lord knows they’ve taken Sam down that road for years and years, and the writers do have a habit of trying to rehabilitate Sam and his actions by making Dean look bad, Trial and Error and what followed being a prime example. But Dean’s decision here was made out of love and was driven by Sam’s loss of hope. I just don’t see where the visceral and, IMO, illogical reaction comes from when S8 firmly reinforced Dean’s driving characteristic that he will always protect and look out for Sam.

    Dean going against all of his principles in cutting Benny lose last year, because Benny upset Sam, was a far worse decision in my mind, but here’s the thing. The show has repeatedly shown the brothers pulling each other back from the loss of hope and defeat season after season. Sure, Dean used deception, used Sam’s faith and trust in him, to get the “yes,” but the writers also showed through Dean’s character that there was hope that the mere humans could defeat the powerful angels.

    I thought the script was very nuanced, bringing up lots of connections to past years (without trashing canon, praise the Lord) and in the parallels it used: Sam and Dean’s processing of Sam’s dilemma, the angels looking for vessels (Cas and Hael)– and I wonder if the vessel issue will play a role in this season.

    Whether the writers like Dean/JA or don’t, he’s here to stay and the fans will take away from each episode what they want to take. I have complete faith that JA will play Dean as he always has and that will keep Dean redeemable and likeable. Fans seem to forget that Dean’s basic character is a dark, sneaky and sneaky smart, dangerous liar and killer of all things supernatural who wears his heart on his shoulder and has a deep capacity to love and tap into the child that never was allowed a childhood. Remember how he didn’t think twice about torturing Bobby (And Then There Was None), how he tortured Jeffery (Repo Man), how he had no remorse for killing Gwen while possessed (And Then There Was None), how he fights dirty (killing that awful Amy in an episode I can’t even remember the name of now). JA gives Dean all of these flavors and he has made Dean Winchester an iconic character, so no matter what the writers attempt, Dean/JA will keep all these aspects of Dean; yet, the fans that don’t like him, won’t.

    My advise, don’t be swayed by what I or others think and post. I’ve been plenty ticked off with the show, and I’m still a doubting Thomas as far as what this season holds, but I liked the premiere, so I’m in for another episode….episode by episode after the God-awful last three seasons.

    Comment by Sheri — October 13, 2013 @ 4:02 am

  112. Roxi, Dean was always my favorite character too but from mid-season 8 on, I can’t stand him at all. It’s gotten to the point that I can’t even watch the show. And it’s not helping that they’re turning Sam into a saint or something.

    Comment by miki — October 13, 2013 @ 8:44 am

  113. @ miki: Was that because Dean was turned into June Cleaver and/or a guilty cheerleader?

    Comment by Sheri — October 13, 2013 @ 9:35 am

  114. Have to agree with Sheri–Dean will be Dean. Sara Gamble I think disliked the Dean character and wanted to turn him into a whiney soap male, but she got fired and Carver seems to have restored the action Dean.
    It was a good episode, and it certainly was not designed to destroy the central character in a successful series, Dean. And, no matter how many Sam-haters or Castile fans are salivating to get rid of Sam, that’s not going to happen. The series is about the Winchester brothers. Only, if Jensen or Jared want to leave the series will that happen. Few TV series ever go 9 years; this one seems set for 10. Since day one, this has been promoted as the story of the Winchesters. No sane show runner or producer is going to change that extraordinary successful foundation of this highly successful business enterprise. Next year there may be some dramatic transformations, like a long-term serious love interest for one of the guys, but only if 10 is definitely set as a final season.
    Furthermore, by what twisted logic can a brother trying everything he can to save his brother’s life be considered a terrible thing? I suppose one could argue that Dean saved Sam for his own needs, not for Sam. But one could make that argument in almost any case of a persons’ struggle with the treatment of a loved-one close to death. A mother distraught and demanding every treatment for her sick child is to some degree acting out of her own need for the child. Disease and damage to the body can put many people in the frame of mind to welcome death, but thankfully, I hope, most of us would see that frame of mind as a product of the disease, not the true wish of someone if they could be restored.

    Comment by CaseyT — October 13, 2013 @ 9:39 am

  115. @114- I guess you haven’t seen the sites that I have. A lot of them call Dean’s act the most disgusting, vile thing they’ve ever seen and they don’t think Sam should EVER forgive Dean for it, nor that Dean can EVER be forgiven. Basically, Dean doesn’t deserve to live now in their eyes.
    I hate that Carver wrote this, I hate that Dean felt like he had no choice but to resort to this, but damn, the way these people talk, Dean is Satan.

    Comment by roxi — October 13, 2013 @ 10:30 am

  116. I basically agree with Lisa1. The brothers don’t, in my opinion really have issues with each other anymore. Not really, and not more than one would expect from two very different people and personalities who spend most of their time together.

    It’s stuff they’ve mostly gotten over, and realized the reasons for the other to have done what they did, or that they made bad choices with good intentions. Seasons 6 (second half) and season 7 showed that. The conflicts and issues between them in Season 8’s first half were totally contrived and ridiculous, and so I choose to mostly ignore them. Thankfully Carver seems to have realized that. Both the brothers love and care for each other, though I wish they would show Sam showing or saying it more on the show. But for me, it’s a given. And also, just the fact that Dean represented his reason and fight to live in his head means just how much he cares for him.

    I don’t think Dean was shown as doing something ‘bad’ or hateful. He made a very difficult decision at a desperate time, out of necessity and no other alternative. It’s what I’d expect from him, and not anything more desperate than going to hell for Sam.

    I’m confused about something though. If that was Ezekial convincing Sam to let him in, then how did he know what they talked about at the church? Could it be real Dean, and somehow him changing places with Ezekial right after Sam says yes? I seems so to me after rewatching that scene.

    Anyhow, very excited about this season. Roxi, please ignore the awful things people might say about Dean, and don’t let it spoil your enjoyment of the show.


    Comment by Tammy — October 13, 2013 @ 11:13 am

  117. @Roxi – Are you upset w/Dean’s actions? Do you think it was similar to rape? Do you think it is the most disgusting, vile thing he could have ever done?

    If not, I wouldn’t worry too much about what some random fans think. Now, if you have issues w/the storyline and Dean’s actions, that’s one thing, but if you don’t, you can’t, or shouldn’t, base your enjoyment of the show on other fans’ views.

    As most know, I’m a bi-bro fan, and I encounter much more Sam/Jared bashing/hatred on the boards I frequent than Dean/Jensen hatred/bashing. I can understand why some have issues w/Sam, but the hatred has never made sense to me so if I looked to fan opinion of Sam for my enjoyment, I wouldn’t enjoy Sam.

    So my advice to you is to decide how you feel about Dean’s actions and forget what anyone else thinks. I mean, Sam has been hated on in some form or fashion since S4 – possibly earlier but I didn’t come online w/r/t this show until S4. Some fans have called him a sociopath, abusive, and the worst brother ever. What are you gonna do? People will think what they want.


    As far as Dean is concerned, I can’t say I was troubled at all by his actions. The last time people were in an uproar over something Dean did was back when he killed Amy in TGND. Oh, and there was also the text message last year. I’m not often in line w/the fandom b/c neither of those actions bothered me. I was more upset w/Dean punching Sam in the face in TGND and Sam stranding Willie (was that his name) in the woods than anything else.

    I am rarely troubled by what Dean does b/c the show really, IMO, takes the time to explain his state of mind and give us his perspective. I understood why he killed Amy, and I didn’t care about the fake text. In the premiere, Dean, clearly, did not want to go w/Zeke’s plan. It was the only option he had to save Sam’s life. Yes, he could have let Sam die but Dean would never do that. We saw the struggle in him, the uncertainty, the indecision, the desperation. I understood Dean’s choice. These brothers will do anything for each other as we also saw w/Sam who was willing to let go of what he wanted (death) to stay w/his brother.

    That’s the heart of the show. I’m not sure why anyone would be surprised, shocked, or saddened by Dean’s actions. He did what he had to do to save Sam like he always does.

    Comment by Lisa1 — October 13, 2013 @ 12:05 pm

  118. Oh, and, for me, both Sam AND Dean are equally likeable and interesting.

    I honestly like both characters and have no problems relating to either of them. It takes more work to relate to Sam b/c the show keeps much of his motivation secret but it’s not impossible. I wish more people liked both characters b/c I think the show would be more enjoyable for them if they did.


    Comment by Lisa1 — October 13, 2013 @ 12:30 pm

  119. Yes, the show does seem to show Dean’s head space and reasons for his actions much more than they do Sam’s. Thats mostly why last season was so ‘off’ and awful for me, as so much of Sam’s behavior was unexplained and OOC.

    It was refreshing and well done, the Sam coma thoughts. Also wanted to add that Sam’s struggle in deciding to fight between life and death didn’t seem unnatural or a ‘giving up’ to me. He said that he didn’t want to die until there didn’t seem to be a real reason/plan to fight to live. So he decided. And he gave it up and trusted Dean the minute he said he had a plan and asked him to stay.

    Comment by Tammy — October 13, 2013 @ 12:43 pm

  120. Sheri, please don’t remind me!
    Lisa, But what makes it different is that the concept of death is different for Winchesters. We are scared of death because we don’t know what will happen to us after we die. Is there another world out there? Is it naught? We have no idea. But Dean knows better. He knows Sam wouldn’t cease to exist by dying. He would continue on living, he just wouldn’t be there. Dean did what he did because he didn’t want to be alone. He wasn’t thinking about what’s best for Sam. Although his decision would be more bearable if Sam wasn’t against it like this. Now don’t get me wrong. I don’t want Sam to die, I’m talking about what Sam wants and I blame Carver for this. We had a similar situation in “The Man Who Knew Too Much” but there, Sam chose to live FOR Dean. “You know me, you know why. I’m not gonna leave my brother alone out there.”
    What I’m trying to say is that in “I Think I’m Gonna Like It Here” Sam was selfish too, just like Dean. I think Carver’s ruined Sam and Dean’s relationship beyond repair. I don’t think he did this deliberately, I think he doesn’t know their relationship as well as we do.

    Comment by miki — October 13, 2013 @ 1:00 pm

  121. @Roxi, I’d suggest you stop visiting those sites if they are full of hate. I won’t go to any site that bashes either brother on a regular bases. Those same people would have hated Dean more if he let Sam die. I still don’t see that Dean did anything particularly awful when he was handed a tough choice to save Sam. I mean really? Rape? That is absolutely ridiculous. I’m not going to let others crazy pov change my perspective of the show or its characters. Those nuts can go on hating Dean (and believe me, they are a very small minority of the fan base, just like the Destiel people are). I’m going to continue to watch SPN and enjoy the brothers. I can’t imagine watching the show hating either brother. I feel sorry for those fans, I mean, why watch if you hate Dean or Sam?

    Comment by twinster — October 13, 2013 @ 1:09 pm

  122. @Tammy – I agree w/both of your posts. I love when we get the rare look into Sam’s mind and thoughts, so I was happy we got some of that in the premiere.

    I also didn’t see Sam as “giving up.” To me, he was “accepting” his death. That’s all. Some felt it was selfish of him to do that knowing how devastated Dean would be, but Sam was just being his usual, practical self. His body was dying and he knew of no way to prevent his impending death. I think the episode made it clear that Sam sees Dean as the one w/the plans and ideas. He looks to Dean for guidance and instruction. The previous Deans didn’t have a plan, but the last “Dean” did.


    @ Miki – Yes, I guess you could say Dean’s actions were selfish, but they were also completely understandable to me. Dean saw Sam stop the trials b/c Sam seemingly wanted to live. When Dean got a look into Sam’s mind, he saw Sam “giving up” but why? What changed? When Dean returns, you even hear him say, “Sam, what are you doing?” Dean doesn’t understand why Sam seems willing to go w/Death. Is it b/c death is really want Sam desires or b/c Sam has lost all hope? Zeke presented a solution – one that Sam might be willing to take if he could.

    Dean decided to make a decision on the hope that Sam would want to live. Of course, he doesn’t want his brother to be dead, but he also doesn’t truly know why Sam was going off w/death. Dean’s actions were largely fueled by his desire to save his brother. I just can’t be angry w/him for that. And unlike in S4, in one episode, the writers did a better job of explaining Dean’s motivation for his actions than they did during an entire season for Sam!

    I agree that Carver almost ruined the Sam/Dean relationship last year, but for me, things have been back on track w/Sam and Dean since ATGB. It was truly like a new season, IMO, after that episode aired. I thought the premiere had both boys in character. I came away understanding and sympathizing w/both. I am not angry w/either brother. For me, this premiere was infinitely better than last year’s crappy premiere. I can only hope this quality continues throughout the season.

    Comment by Lisa1 — October 13, 2013 @ 1:30 pm

  123. Just a FYI- First question out of Jensen at the Toronto con today- Do you think Dean did the right thing?- sounded like half the crowd said yes. Jared asked-who thinks he did the wrong thing??? sounded like the other half said yes -and jared said “Hey” Jensen said “yea let Sam die”. Just FYI.

    Comment by animal — October 13, 2013 @ 1:37 pm

  124. Haha, Animal :-)

    That’s funny!

    Comment by Lisa1 — October 13, 2013 @ 3:22 pm

  125. @ Animal: “Yeah let Sam die.”

    Jensen is a straight shooter. That was, indeed, the option.

    Comment by Sheri — October 13, 2013 @ 3:32 pm

  126. It was -infact I think Jensen said “Really?” after the crowd said Dean did the right thing. J2 are so cute/gorgeous and funny.

    But I just thought that it was interesting that that was the first thing that J2 wanted to know at the con today. They asked if the con goers liked the episode and then Jensen asks the question that online bloggers have been debating. I have to say the writers are pros/fantastic at writing things that are controversial to their audience. In other words to get the “talk” going. And to pit one group of fans against the other. I choose not to do that anymore. Its a waste of time-the writers are going to write what they want. They have their story already on story boards before we even see 1 tiny sec of what the first episode is going to be like. Like Jensen said today-we saw episode 1 last week-the writers are probably writing episode 13 now. J2 don’t have input in what the writers are writing-they only have input on changing a sentence or a mood of a scene. So fans might not like what Sam/Dean do but if J2 can’t change it-fans certainly can’t.

    Comment by animal — October 13, 2013 @ 3:39 pm

  127. There was so much talk from Carver and the boys on how the brother’s bond and relationship would be repaired and close again. I guess I just don’t see how that will happen now, or if it does, it’s gonna take a long time.
    Trying to think about something else; Does anybody have any idea what Dean’s episode with Robin will be about? Supposedly Dean had some life experience in his youth that nobody, not even Sam knows about and it’s supposed to be a very emotional episode for him. Any thoughts?

    Comment by roxi — October 13, 2013 @ 3:50 pm

  128. @ roxi: I try not to think about it. I’m tired of the “emotional” episodes for Dean. I want him spilling blood and taking punches.

    Comment by Sheri — October 13, 2013 @ 6:51 pm

  129. Well Sheri, to me, the only emotional episodes he has are about Sam. I’d like to see him emotional about something or someone else. He was upset about the deaths of John, Jo, Ellen and Bobby, and about Lisa and Ben being in danger, but mostly his love is only shown for Sam. And I’d like to see what this side we’ve never seen is all about. Gives me something to look forward to after how, to me anyway, they all but destroyed his character in the premiere.

    Comment by roxi — October 14, 2013 @ 7:38 am

  130. Anybody can tell me, if Sam reject Ezekiel, how does Sam do that? Sam is too weak right now

    Comment by suzan — October 14, 2013 @ 8:28 am

  131. I imagine that Sam doesn’t need to be physically strong to get rid of Ezekiel, just of free will. So even if his body is weak, his mind still is in control and if he commands Ezekiel to leave, he can make it happen.
    I just thought of another possibility; one of the reasons Sam got so addicted to the demon blood was that it made him feel stronger and in control. What if, initially he is resentful of Ezekiel’s presence inside of him, but then, realizing the powers he has because of it, starts to like it and not be so willing to give it up, sort of a role reversal; Ezekiel will truly want to leave when he and Sam are both healed, but maybe Sam, with his ego jacked up because of the angel powers he now possesses, somehow won’t let him and having the angel powers will go to his head much like the demon blood powers did. Dean,in the name of saving Sam, may have it backfire on him horribly and create the same kind of almost monster that the demon blood almost created. Some might call it, ironic, poetic justice. For anybody currently calling for Dean to be punished for his actions, this certainly could be an interesting way to do it, something neither Dean nor the audience saw coming, a big way his actions could come back to bite him in the ass (and they always do).

    Comment by roxi — October 14, 2013 @ 9:29 am

  132. The show needs to be more balanced in its storytelling, in that BOTH brothers need their own stories about themselves. Sam gets storylines about Sam, so Dean should get storylines about Dean. However, with that being said, I have to say the poster who keeps saying that Jensen hasn’t been challenged or the other poster who seems to think that Jensen just wants to be “comfortable” seem to be dissing Jensen and I have to wonder how much of the show they’ve watched or interviews they’ve read.

    Jensen has complained, in a professional manner, since Season 6. Jensen would NEVER walk or threaten to walk off a set, he’s way too professional for that. Look at everything he had to put up with behind the scenes on Dark Angel and everyone had such wonderful things to say about Jensen and his professionalism.

    Jensen has played multiple characters and multiple versions of Dean. Very few actors could have pulled off The End as successfully as Jensen did, playing 2 versions of the same character against each other, in the same scenes, yet portraying them differently enough that you could tell who was who. Also, Jensen was the first to play a completely separate character, in Season 1 he played Shapeshifter Dean in Skin. Jensen has even played Dean as a vampire. Along the way, Jensen has played multiple Deans, some different versions and some completely different. I think the difference is that Jensen likes the character of Dean, the real, human character, and wants to explore him and peel back all the layers, not having “something wrong” with Dean or something that makes it not really Dean.

    Comment by Bree — October 14, 2013 @ 9:45 am

  133. (cont).

    Having a tie to the mytharc doesn’t mean that a character has to have “something wrong” with him, so I don’t understand why the writers insist on doing this year after year for Sam. Why they can’t write a mytharc storyline for Sam that doesn’t involve there be something wrong with him…again…or actually giving Dean a mytharc storyline that’s actually about Dean himself? The writers seems to be writing the same storylines over and over again. This season 9 storylines seems like season 6 all over again.

    Jensen has said that some of the toughest scenes to do are the emotional ones, those are challenging, and I think Jensen excels at them. Unfortunately, I think Jensen is a victim of his own success (I think Kripke once said that about him), and the writers rely on that too too much.

    Comment by Bree — October 14, 2013 @ 9:51 am

  134. And before someone takes that the wrong way, I am NOT putting Sam down here. I’m just saying that he has probably always been seduced by anything that made him feel like he was in control and powerful, because he had been under John’s control for so long, and then, yes I’ll admit it, Dean’s, even though when push came to shove Sam still did whatever he really wanted to do, but he did defer to Dean most of the time in normal, everyday circumstances. He knew that Dean was just trying to take care of him more like a father than a big brother in fact, but even when you know it’s being done out of love, a family member bossing you around can suffocate you at times and cause you to be resentful. So when you find something that makes you feel like NOBODY is in control of you but you, it can be easy to be seduced by it, be it demon blood or an attractive demon (or angel) stroking your ego. I understand and relate to this part of Sam. Even at my age, I could just as easily as Sam be seduced by something that gave me that feeling of power and control, because much of our lives are controlled by others. So, without anything against Sam, I can see my hypothesis being a logical possibility.

    Comment by roxi — October 14, 2013 @ 9:56 am

  135. If you look at canon, what Dean did was completely in character, not giving a monkey’s toss about what consequence when it come to saving his brother. He reacts to his gut feelings That is the beauty of Dean, you get what you see. If Dean had done any differently, then to me, we would have been faced with the same issue as the ‘Sam not looking for Dean’ fiasco (which according to canon is completely out of character). That is the nub of the show, there is no way that the show can change the heart of Dean’s character (to save his brother) without it damaging the show itself. Sam not looking for Dean came very close to that for me, I wish TPTB had thought that thru more because it now cannot be said that Sam can’t live without Dean, he can and did and that is so sad for me (darn writers). I want Mystery Spot Sam to be the true Sam, not the ‘I imploded and ran’ Sam because that is NOT Sam. I will never buy it EVER. So that kind of pierces the veil for me and I just can’t shake it. I want the writers to show Sam showing Dean how much he cares (don’t get me wrong, I know he does, I do not for one second have an issue with him wanting to die. He is in a coma while he is dealing for goodness sake). So yes I am very pleased that Dean kept the promise, however skewed it might be, he saved his brother no matter what, it’s the Dean I love and the Dean that Sam chooses over death (last season remember? he chose his brother over closing the gates of hell and dying), so yes Sam is going to be pissed, I am so looking forward to the beat down that he needs to give Dean. But blaming him for that decision to save his brother is just ridiculous.

    The fan angst and argument about Dean not letting Sam die is just so rhetorical to me because there is absolutely no alternative without damaging the show. Now don’t you think it would have been far more interesting if the writers had given him a choice over HOW Sam was going to live? Now THAT would have been debate worthy, not THAT he should live because that is a no brainer to SPN canon.

    Rambling I know… sorry

    Comment by tokoloshi — October 14, 2013 @ 12:30 pm

  136. @Roxi – That is an interesting idea, but I’m not sure how Sam could KEEP Zeke in his body if Ezekiel didn’t want to be there. Zeke is an angel and all-powerful I presume. If he wants to vacate Sam’s body, I’m sure he could do it despite Sam’s protests.


    @Tokolishi – I hear you. I also know Sam loves and cares about Dean as much as Dean loves and cares about him, and I also wish Show would show that side of Sam more often. We see it once in a while (i.e., Sacrifice speech, FB speech, T&E speech, S6 finale w/Hell!Sam and Real!Sam), but not as often as we see w/Dean.

    Not to beat a long dead horse, but that raises my main issue w/S8. Sera left the show in a place where we would FINALLY see Sam rescue Dean. I’ve been waiting to see that since the S2 finale. Before the horrid spoilers came, I spent time discussing the ways in which Sam would look for Dean and just what Sam would do to rescue Dean from Purgatory. I even thought the opportunity brought a chance for Sam to get some of his own friends. He could meet up w/new hunters who could help him in his search for Dean. I was excited about the possibilities.

    Sadly, Carver crushed all my dreams and almost destroyed Sam (and the brotherly bond). Like you, it was hard to take early S8 Sam seriously when the showrunner ADMITS to writing the character against type. Carver said he wanted to tell a different story b/c everyone knew Sam WOULD look for Dean, so on a whim, he decided to have Sam not look. I don’t think he’ll ever admit it, but I have to believe he realized it was a colossal mistake. Well into 2013, Carver was still fielding questions about why Sam didn’t look and if we would learn the real reason why he didn’t look for Dean. Carver gave his sarcastic response, but he had to know his story for Sam was largely panned and disliked by an overwhelming majority of the audience. Even Sam haters hadn’t speculated that Sam wouldn’t look for Dean. That’s how OOC it was.

    We’re not getting any of that crap about maturity (since when is it immature to look for a missing relative) and perspective. I hope Carver really learned a lesson. Dean did exactly what I would expect of him. For him to do anything different would have been OOC, IMO.

    Comment by Lisa1 — October 14, 2013 @ 1:19 pm

  137. @132&133- Umm, Yeah sorry, I HAVE watched all of it, and I still come to the same conclusion; that Jensen basically plays the same thing over and over. And didn’t you just saying the same thing yourself?
    We did get a one off here and there, like the shapeshifer, but for the most part, I haven’t seen whole storylines where Jensen shows a totally different side to Dean that way I’ve seen Jared get. That’s just my opinion but I know I’m not alone.
    Who said Jensen just wants to comfortable? Certainly not me. I believe he wants more to show and do as Dean, but it’s also true that he makes a very comfortable living, so I’m sure that makes it quite a bit easier to swallow the lack in his storylines.
    Finally, what stuff did Jensen have to deal with at Dark Angel?

    Comment by roxi — October 14, 2013 @ 4:19 pm

  138. Back to my original question: What does anyone thank Dean’s story with Robin might be about?

    Comment by roxi — October 14, 2013 @ 4:35 pm

  139. @137 – no, I absolutely didn’t say that Jensen plays the same thing, He has gotten to play other characters and other versions. Maybe it hasn’t been a multi-season arc, but it has been amazing to watch Jensen put his spin on each role.

    I said that Jensen likes Dean, the real person, whereas, I get the impression from Jared in interviews that one of the reasons he likes when there’s something wrong with Sam is because he doesn’t like playing the regular person Sam.

    Think thats why, for me, I gravitate towards Dean because he’s a real person with flaws who keeps trying, keeps going, even though he doesn’t have any special powers.

    I wasn’t talking to you about the statement that Jensen was “comfortable”, i th fk that person was making it a criticism of Jensen, basically saying that Jensen doesn’t give it his all, which is so far from the truth.

    Does Dean need a storyline thats about him and not about sam? Heck, yes! But, I see no reason to diminish the amazing acting and the amazing character Jensen has given us.

    Comment by Bree — October 14, 2013 @ 4:49 pm

  140. Playing a character or a different character doesn’t mean that that makes the acting challenging and you don’t have to play different characters to be challenged in acting.

    Comment by Bree — October 14, 2013 @ 4:51 pm

  141. As for Dark Angel, apparently Michael Weatherly and Jessica Alba were not nice and MW felt threatened by Jensen. The crew, writing staff, etc loved Jensen, he was always prepared, knew his lines. MW would count his lines and compare them to Jensen’s and since MW and Jessica were a couple, they would complain to James Cameron. Scenes did get changed and supposedly, the season 2 finale (what ended up being the series finale) , which Cameron directed, there were scenes of Jensen’s cut. But, Jensen was always great, kept his head down, did his work and didn’t get involved in the issues. If you listen to the commentary to a couple of the episodes, especially The Berrisford Agenda, you can see how much TPTB loved Jensen and his amazing acting.

    Comment by Bree — October 14, 2013 @ 5:01 pm

  142. I’ll add to Bree #141: Weatherly actually counted the number of words while on set to see if JA had more than him. Jessica Alba was a complete bitch to everyone and, especially JA because Weatherly was threatened. The decision to cancel the series was being weighed, and it came down to TPTB didn’t want to put up with her, particularly, and Weatherly any longer.

    Comment by Sheri — October 14, 2013 @ 6:51 pm

  143. Wow. No one here sees any problem with Dean not respecting Sam’s wishes? Last year I had to ask my sib to make medical decisions for me if I was incapacitated – because I don’t trust my parents to respect my wishes. I am trusting my sib with my life. Trusting her to make the hard decisions and let me go if that’s what I would want. Would I want her to save my life if it meant I no longer had control over my mind or body? No. If she didn’t respect my wishes this would be a profound betrayal.
    The problem with Dean’s actions is that he didn’t respect Sam’s right to his own body and his life. He not only stated that Sam would never agree to be an angel’s vessel, he then heard Sam saying he wanted to die. (And never mind that this was totally out of character after the whole ‘light at the end of the tunnel speech’ last season)
    Maybe because this struck a personal chord I can’t just gloss this over as some of you have done – but I’m honestly really surprised that you guys don’t find this completely out of character for Dean and really pretty awful.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — October 15, 2013 @ 12:25 am

  144. @t1gerlilly–I think people don’t find it out of character because Dean doing insane things to save his family doesn’t really seem out of character. At least, not his character in the early seasons of the show, and since the PTB are determined to regress both Sam and Dean back to those versions of themselves under the veil of maturing, it seems pretty in line with the Dean they want. If you think about it, this is the natural progression of the Dean they loved the second half of S8–focused on taking care of Sam and nothing but Sam, to the point where he would go against his principles and refuse to look at the bigger picture in order to keep Sam alive. So it’s not out of character to me because Dean as Sam’s satellite is the characterization PTB ultimately want. That’s why on twitter they don’t see any problem with what they’ve done and don’t understand why people are upset about it, as far as I see.

    Second, I’d agree that in real life what Dean had done was awful, but on this show consent issues have always been treated as a bit of a joke. Angels don’t reveal the pain they’re about to undergo to their vessels and leave them in vegetative states. It’s fine to sleep with a vegetative body with a demon in it. Killing people possessed by demons is not a big deal. Memories have been erased with some regularity. Becky using a demon to trick Sam into being her husband is played for laughs. Show has a tendency towards rape jokes. So to me, this is one more consent issue the PTB don’t get on the top of a pile–they gave themselves the cover of Sam agreeing to live by whatever means Dean found, and that’s good enough for them. To me personally, this is one more OMGDRAMAZ source of conflict that is going to end up being sound and fury before we return to status quo, so personally I can’t get that worked up about it. I understand why others might feel differently, but I just don’t think show is thinking that deeply about it and therefore I’m not going to bother, because I doubt it’s going to be addressed beyond the big “How could you”/”To save your life”/”Well, I’m not happy but I understand” confrontation we’ll ultimately get.

    Comment by Huh — October 15, 2013 @ 3:19 am

  145. @ t1gerlilly: Nope, not upset at all. In fact, I thought the script gave the fans a good look at both the Winchesters’ individual characters. I’ve been one of the loudest Sam critics during the past three years, but I can honestly say that I left this episode not upset at either character.

    Besides that; and I’ve given my reasons in prior posts here that covers the ‘whys’, so won’t go into that again, I found that Dean’s decision drove the mytharc (just as TPTB said it would) and Sam’s time-sharing with an angel as a way to bring Sam into the mytharc — the mytharc being the angel wars.

    I don’t see yet that Dean is involved in the mytharc, but I’m hoping they keep Action!Dean the way he was in this episode and not a guilty moper over his two decisions (allowing angel possession and then not telling Sam until Sam is healed enough that he won’t die — the mind-wipe).

    I’m hoping that since Dean is not yet personally connected to the mytharc, obviously does know that he went against Sam’s wishes to die, and now doesn’t have Sam to rely on, that he goes a little dark and more ruthless. I’m sure that won’t be the case, but I’d prefer that to another year of guilt-ridden Dean or wet-nurse Dean.

    As far as the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’ speech, I don’t think that has anything to do with it, beyond Dean there at the end representing the ‘hope’ or the reason for Sam to continue fighting. Sam argued the tunnel speech because he knew Dean thought the trials were a suicide mission and was afraid that Dean would be reckless; whereas, Sam wanted to do them as a way to win, get out of the hunting life forever, and find that ‘normal’ life for he and Dean. Sam thought he was protecting Dean, but in the end, Dean was cheerleading Sam all the way, stopped Sam right at the end so he wouldn’t die (the promise at the church); thus becoming the light at the end of the tunnel for Sam. In other words, confirming to Sam that he will always be No. 1 to Dean. That’s the point (the trust Dean has in Sam and the hope that they can accomplish anything by sticking together) on which this season’s premiere started. Here, Sam chose to not go with Death — to live for Dean because Dean gave him the hope he was looking for and reaffirmed that he would always be No. 1 in Dean’s eyes — that last sentence of the episode (something about Dean knew Sam could do anything).

    I thought the script gave the fans a complex look at the brothers’ very complex relationship, and I wonder if that will be explored more throughout the season. I have little faith that the rest of the inferior writers can build on what Carver started in this script, though.

    Comment by Sheri — October 15, 2013 @ 3:40 am

  146. @143- Where have you been during all my posts? Did I not complain about how I thought they had destroyed Dean’s character by making him commit what I thought was a violation? And how I have been reading all these blogs about how awful it was,and how Sam should never forgive him or trust him again, and how there’s no way they’ll ever get past this? How much all these bloggers hate Dean now and think he didn’t do this out of love, but because he’s a selfish prick, and a manipulative user of Cas’s friendship to boot?
    Of course, Sam would be dead and SPN would be over, but still? couldn’t these lousy writers find another way?
    I DO have a big problem with what Dean did, though I know he was desperate and did it out of love, although there was probably a little bit of selfishness involved as well, as there are in all of us when we are afraid to lose someone we love. The difference for me is, I KNOW Dean is not this selfish prick bastard, but it would be easy for some to see him that way now. To me, it was Caver and Singer finding a way to ruin their least favorite character, and it ruined the premiere for me. Ironic aside: those who are claiming they will never forgive Dean if he ends up expelling Cas from the bunker apparently had no problem forgiving Cas for breaking Sam’s wall, also they had no trouble I suppose forgiving Sam for choosing a demon over his own brother. To me, Dean isn’t going to get the same understanding as Cas and Sam do from these bloggers.And I really do believe that’s what Carver and Singer wanted.
    Nothing we can do about it now, it can’t be undone. So I will try to keep watching, and see if there’s any chance of Dean finding redemption for this act and how they accomplish that. And maybe the storyline will improve as the season progresses.

    Comment by roxi — October 15, 2013 @ 3:48 am

  147. @ Roxi 146
    I think the reason why Sam and Cas are so easily forgiven of their past mistakes is because we see them through Dean’s eyes! We route for anyone Dean loves because, IMO he is written as having this awesome protective quality of love that I think we secretly all wish we had some of (fictionally you understand) and we just want this poor man to have SOMEONE in his life to love him back. I think Cas and Sam are largely defined by Dean’s love… its a powerful force that keeps them together. Canon has shown that Sam is capable of being independent as is Cas. I think the whole reason this crazy skewed semi erotic codependent love thing this show has going works is because Sam and Cas don’t want to disappoint that intense love he has for them. Ruin that and I promise you the show will not be the same. I hope TPTB don’t ruin it. I LOVE the way Dean loves Sam and Cas and makes them stone number one. He has definitely overstepped the boundaries, (oh boy he has but I love him all the more for it) but as you say this is what the show does all the time. Being so desperate to not have to face life without the ONE thing that has given you meaning…. come ON folks how can you not love that

    Comment by tokoloshi — October 15, 2013 @ 4:26 am

  148. I don’t see this premiere episode yet. I’m very sad. Could you guys tell me what Dean’s said when Ezekiel possessed Sam?

    Comment by suzan — October 15, 2013 @ 4:30 am

  149. @147- Yes but that’s the point. Dean MUST be forgiving of everything. We were shown in season 8 that he doesn’t forget the hurt, but he does eventually forgive.
    I’ve got no problem with Dean loving Sam and Cas, I’ve got a problem with his ONLY loving Sam and Cas. With his entire worth and identity being all about them. Sam had his education, books, Amelia, he proved he didn’t have every breath revolve around Dean (nor should it.) And now that Cas is human, it sounds like he won’t need Dean anymore, what with meeting a woman and all. Why is it that Dean’s life can’t be about something else besides Sam and Cas? Hell, I’d even consider it growth if we saw him take up fixing up old cars as an outlet all for himself. Or getting a real daytime job that he enjoys, I mean, they’re eventually gonna get caught as felons for ripping off ATM’s and people’s credit cards. At least, I would like Dean to find his place in the MOL. So far, it sounds like that is mainly a story arc for Sam alone.

    Comment by roxi — October 15, 2013 @ 4:46 am

  150. I agree with @144, SPN has always had issues with consent, so I don’t think this is a bigger issue or really any different than what the show has done in the past. If the show does try to make this an issue now, after over 8 seasons of consent issues, I think that would be a joke and creating angst just to create angst.

    Comment by Kelsey — October 15, 2013 @ 4:47 am

  151. @huh – good points all.
    @roxi – yeah, I hear you sister. I think you know I was really upset with the way the finale destroyed the integrity of the ‘Righteous Man’. I know Carver thinks the brother bond is unshakeable… But lies, disrespect, and deception are exactly what destroy relationships. Plus it was totally unnecessary. The writers didn’t need to put them in this position at all.
    I just don’t understand why they couldn’t just have had Dean come clean to Sam after his speech to Death. Or had him strong arm Crowley into helping Sam. Or had him decide to let him go and had Ezekial talk him into it. Or had Dean argue with Death and Sam change his mind. Or had Dean summon a god of healing. I mean, I don’t understand why Dean thought the angels could help in the first place. After all, Cas already told him there were things going on at the subatomic level that he couldn’t heal. So I don’t get why Ezekial could heal him at all. The whole thing makes no sense when you think about it.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — October 15, 2013 @ 4:55 am

  152. @_151-Are you, as a Cas fan/Destiel fan, gonna hate Dean when he has to tell Cas to leave the bunker because, unknown to Cas, Ezekiel tells Dean that Cas could alert Sam ti his presence, which could hurt Sam?

    Comment by roxi — October 15, 2013 @ 5:58 am

  153. @151-Everybody knows I love Dean. He is my favorite character, although I do love Sam too, and I don’t deny it. And I know he did what he did in the premiere because he loves Sam. But I just can’t see it any other way than as a violation. Sam wanted to die, at least that’s what I saw. He was at peace with it and wanted to finally be at peace. He said it was what he wanted. But then Dean overrode his wishes,took his free will and choice away, coerced and tricked him into saying yes unknowingly to being possessed, and then lied to him. Sure Sam needed to stay alive or no SPN. But the writers had Dean make a choice that diminishes him as a character and as a person.So yes t1gerliily, I see your point of view. I just hope somehow Dean finds redemption and forgiveness.

    Comment by roxi — October 15, 2013 @ 6:12 am

  154. I disagree that Sam wanted to die and was at peace with it, otherwise we wouldn’t have seen Bobby-Sam, Dean-Sam and Death-Sam (the actor who plays Death confirmed at Tornoto Con, that that wasn’t actual Death, it was made up by Sam). Sam was conflicted and made these characters up in his head. Also, Jensen confirmed that that was Ezekiel-Dean, not Dean-Dean in Sam’s head. Ezekiel-Dean is who spoke to Sam.

    Comment by Kelsey — October 15, 2013 @ 6:32 am

  155. Kelsey, Roxi, t1gerlilly
    These are all good points that are totally valid. Kelsey u r right about Death and Sam, never actually thought about it. It MUST have been in Sam’s head at the cabin.. all of it. But then was it Sam thinking those things about himself? if so then it doesn’t matter who was in Dean (Ezekiel Dean whatever) because it was just Sam making them all up anyway. So following that thought, Dean/Ezekiel really didn’t persuade him at all surely? Am now confused….this show should come with a box of myprodol

    Comment by tokoloshi — October 15, 2013 @ 7:56 am

  156. I have just read an interview and now I am so excited. Without giving anything away I think Ezekiel is going to be a good angel…. oh PLEEZ let this be the case.

    Comment by tokoloshi — October 15, 2013 @ 8:14 am

  157. Ok, valid points to all. Another question, besides that one I asked about Dean’s story with Robin that nobody seems interested in giving their take on, does anyone think all this might revert Dean back to his alcoholism?

    Comment by roxi — October 15, 2013 @ 8:17 am

  158. Roxi where is this convo?

    Comment by tokoloshi — October 15, 2013 @ 8:35 am

  159. I also don’t get why Ezekial was able to take him as a vessel. Aren’t there bloodlines involved, like an angel can only take a descendant of a specific bloodline as a vessel? That’s why heaven had to get John and Mary together, so that Michael & Lucifer could take vessels from brothers. Also, that’s why angels stay the same race even though they take different vessels – their vessels are from the same family. I understand that Dean and Sam would probably be strong vessels, since they’re built archangel tough – but if any angel could take them, why didn’t cas just hop into Dean or Sam and put out the ‘no vacancy’ sign to stop the apocalypse? He would only have had to wait until they aged normally – a century at the outside, before one or both died and Heaven would have been outta luck.
    If any angel can take any any vessel, does that mean that Dean will be constantly being pestered (like Cas was) by any angel looking for a strong vessel? Or was same also descended from Ezekial’s bloodline.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — October 15, 2013 @ 8:45 am

  160. @roxi – I don’t know why exactly Dean is going to throw him out of the bunker. But I doubt it will bother me. I’m beginning to think Cas can do better.
    Besides, you never know what’ll happen. It seemed like Ezekiel knew Cas. For all we know Ezekiel is in love with Cas and now has a vessel where he can do something about it. I can totally see where if Cas spurned his advances, Ezekiel might decide to manipulate Dean into throwing him out of the bunker, because he can’t stand to have him so close.
    (OK, I know that’ll probably not happen, given who’s writing the show. But I bring it up just to show that we have no idea why Dean’s going to throw Cas out, so I’m going to reserve judgement.)
    But I’m a person who watches for storylines as much as specific pairings. I want a good story and Destiel is epic. But I’m having a hard time with Dean’s character. And honestly, I feel like Jensen defaults to ‘angry!Dean’ too often. I’m also really over the whole ‘lies and secrets’ thing. That’s boring and been done to death on the show.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — October 15, 2013 @ 8:58 am

  161. @t1gerlilly
    Totally agree on the lies thing. But what is to be done? I wish I could hop into Carvers head and see where he is going with this. I started watching last year, so have no idea about the Dean issues that went on back then. I hope neither brother is sacrificed for the sake of drama this season, but it seems the fans are turning against Dean, so I guess the drama will continue.

    I worry tho coz Carver really got it wrong with the Amelia thing, and also just dropping the Purgatory line, which is just crazy considering there wasn’t a person who didn’t enjoy that storyline. Also last year was divided into two distinct shows, one not speaking to the other at all, so for me it didn’t flow like the other seasons. Anyhoo we will just have to see

    Comment by tokoloshi — October 15, 2013 @ 9:11 am

  162. @tokoloshi
    I agree about the two halves of the show. I know a lot of people here liked the last half. On Tumblr most people I know liked the first half (other than Amelia). Personally, I liked the beginning and the end, but not the soggy middle. The one-offs just weren’t that interesting and really threw off the tone of the show, in my opinion.
    If you haven’t already, I’d really recommend seasons 3-5 of the show. They’re so good they’re like triple chocolate truffle cheesecake. Just one ep is more satisfying than entire seasons of other shows. The cast was on fire. The writing was original… it’s just amazing TV. You’ll see some of that in later seasons, but that’s where it’s just jam-packed with yummy goodness.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — October 15, 2013 @ 10:09 am

  163. @160- But why are you are blaming Jensen for the way the crappy way Dean is being written? And why do you suddenly think ” Cas can do better”? Have you turned into a Dean hater too? Or was it only Cas that you cared about in the first place? If so, how can you just brush away any of the other characters mistakes? Cas did, after all, break Sam’s wall, almost killing him.

    Comment by roxi — October 15, 2013 @ 10:23 am

  164. @roxi – I’ll never be a Dean hater. I finally got someone from work hooked on SPN (yeah!). I told him that Sam was my fav character S1-2, Dean was my favorite S3-S8, and Cas is my fav now. I can see that Dean is being used as the catalyst for the action this season, which is fine. He’ll make a bunch of mistakes. I actually think that’ll be good for the show – it will deepen the character and make the writing more interesting. But I am less attached to Dean now. Dean was always the person who tried to do the right thing, no matter what the cost. It was so much a part of his character that others depended on it. John, placing the burden of killing Sam on Dean. (Hell, raising Sam on Dean). Sam, who always places Dean’s judgement above his own. Not to mention Heaven, who found it incomprehensible that Dean would break before John, as the righteous man in hell. Without his self-sacrifice, loyalty, and innate decency, I don’t understand the character.
    I don’t blame Jensen for how Dean is being written, but I do wonder sometimes if he’s getting bored with the character.
    I’ve always said I prefer scenes with Dean and Cas, because I think Misha is unpredictable and brings out great performances in Jensen. Instead of angry!Dean, you see puzzled!Dean, amused!Dean, intent!Dean … his interactions and expressions are just much more interesting and complex. I think the same is true to a lesser extent of other side characters. Without Cas (or Charlie or Kevin) it’s all Sturm and Drang: anger and desperation.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — October 15, 2013 @ 1:01 pm

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