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“Heaven Can’t Wait” Discussion

Post your thoughts on tonight’s episode where Cas gets a job. Click HERE for my full recap or keep reading for my quick analysis.

Last week I declared Dean acting like a dog the funniest moment ever. Well, I was wrong. Because Cas singing “Believe It or Not” to a baby topped it. That scene made me laugh as hard as I do when I watch Archer (unrelated: You should watch Archer).

 

I’m liking the slow journey of Castiel’s humanity, learning to accept the pain and emotions of being human. He picks up new pieces every episode and it’s not being rushed, which is nice.

 

I also really enjoy seeing Ashton Holmes as a bad guy. He played the angel of mercy here, but he was also psychotic Tyler on the first season of Revenge.

 

However, I’m getting concerned with Dean. He’s lying a lot this season to his friends and family. He’s lying nonstop to Sam about Zeke and why Cas can’t stay with them, and at the end of this episode he kind of lied to Cas about not worrying about reopening Heaven right after Sam gave him the bad news. I know he’s doing it for their own best interests, but all of this deception is gonna catch up to him sooner or later.

 

Finally, I can’t decide if Crowley was lying about the translation or if they’re just going to have to find a way around it. “Irreversible” isn’t a word the Winchesters understand as they’ve spent their entire lives doing the impossible and changing destiny. So it’s hard for me to accept that Heaven is closed forever. If the countless resurrections, defeat of Lucifer and everything else have taught me anything, it’s that Sam and Dean always find a way.

News posted on November 12, 2013 Comments (235)

235 Comments »

  1. I really have no words for how bad this episode is. Sam was hardly in it at all and his part was the only interesting part. The Dean and Cas show doesn’t work and Cas learning to be human was as stupid as it sounds. Didn’t feel like Supernatural and was embarrassingly dumb.

    Comment by Sara — November 12, 2013 @ 6:49 pm

  2. This episode was AWFUL. OMG, Just no.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 12, 2013 @ 7:08 pm

  3. Agreed! WTF did I just watch! I miss the old Supernatural with the dark grainy cinematography and mystery. I remembered in season 2 Croatoan how scared I was when they did the demon communication with human blood. They turned it into a joke in season 9 with Crowley being put on hold like it was a customer service number.

    Comment by Richard — November 12, 2013 @ 7:11 pm

  4. I liked some parts of the episode. The part about no reversing the spell is interesting, and I’m thinking Zeke is going to play an important part in the season because of it. I liked the angel part of the story up until the angel showed up to zap Cas. His reasoning about Cas being in so much pain because he was choosing to be human, so Cas had already chosen death didn’t float too much.

    Sam was downright impotent, letting Crowley shine and even Kevin appearing brighter than him.

    Cas’ story was, once again, boring as hell. I’m sorry, but Misha just can’t carry an episode. His scenes with Dean were okay, but this human story is beginning to rub me at about the same level as Sam/Amelia — well, maybe not quite that bad yet.

    The show really needs to cut back on Dean saying so many pop culture references. I don’t even get most of these more current ones. And I don’t like this lightning they are using these last couple of episodes.

    All in all, I thought it drove the mystery of Zeke further, and I liked that and that it was an okay episode.

    Comment by Sheri — November 12, 2013 @ 7:13 pm

  5. I thought last week’s episode was bad, this one takes the cake. The episodes are getting worse and worse.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 12, 2013 @ 7:16 pm

  6. And I;m sorry but Dean and Castiel interactions are completely awkward and cringeworthy. The writers should stop trying to have Castiel carry an entire episode BECAUSE HE CANNOT.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 12, 2013 @ 7:18 pm

  7. I have to agree with others. Misha can’t carry an episode. Not every character that has any kind of popularity should be given a whole episode because not everyone can pull it off. He made me cringe. He’s just so awkward. What exactly was this episode supposed to accomplish? Bad fanfic if you ask me.

    Comment by Sara — November 12, 2013 @ 7:21 pm

  8. I really liked it. I think Dean and Cas have so much more chemistry than Sam and Dean. I did think Sam, Kevin and Crowley also worked great together. I think they need to split the guys up more, they are just too tired together, but put them with others and it works so much better. I’m not sure I like Cas as just a mini mart cashier, with all his knowledge and experience, I’d like to see him eventually join the brothers as a hunter. Misha was great as always.

    Comment by Jaylen — November 12, 2013 @ 7:27 pm

  9. Dean and Cas have more chemistry? Did I read that right? I don’t think they have any at all. Every conversation is stale and feels forced. I really don’t see it.

    Comment by Sara — November 12, 2013 @ 7:39 pm

  10. I didn’t think tonight’s episode was very good, but then I’ve never been a big fan of Castiel. I thought last week’s episode was a lot better.

    Nobody has mentioned it yet, but at the end of this week’s episode, was Crowley injecting himself with Kevin’s blood. If so, why would he do that because isn’t Kevin a prophet of the Lord?

    Comment by Valerie — November 12, 2013 @ 7:39 pm

  11. I don’t think injecting himself with Kevin’s blood has much to do with anything, except that Crowley liked the human feelings he got from Sam. And why was the door to the dungeon left open so Sam would see him injecting the blood?

    I think Crowley wanting Kevin’s blood was just to give Kevin a few more lines in the episode. Honestly, if the prophet of the Lord is the only person that can read the tablets, then why could Crowley read an ancient language that Kevin couldn’t read. I’m not all that impressed with AP Kevin Tran.

    Comment by Sheri — November 12, 2013 @ 7:45 pm

  12. This was a very slow-moving episode. Not much happened, IMO. I didn’t feel the plot was moved along at all. It was basically yet another filler episode. That’s three in a row now.

    I could have sworn I read that Sam was going to be on a mission to save/cure demons, and that Cas was going to be helping his fallen brethren or whatever. Did I make that up b/c NONE of that is happening. Nothing is happening right now w/the show.

    If I had to rate this episode, I would give it a “5.” It wasn’t awesome. It wasn’t dismal. It was just there. I really do like Cas, but I must agree w/those who have said he alone cannot carry this show. I’m never quite as interested in Cas as I believe the writers want me to be. It just doesn’t work.

    I did like that Cas questioned whether he should be out there helping solve the problem he created. That was something, but there was nothing else of import IMO. No demons care about Crowley anymore. Who cares? Abbadon and Crowley don’t like each other? Again . . . who cares? Cas and some angel have a conversation. Boring. Cas is dealing w/being human. Okay.

    The next episode doesn’t look any better. I wish there was a main theme/arc for the season. The show is really missing that, IMO.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 12, 2013 @ 8:01 pm

  13. @ Jaylen: Um, no. You are delusional. Dean and Cas DO NOT have better chemistry than Dean and Sam. The whole reason why this show has been successful is because of J2′s chemistry. Go back to Tumblr and take your Destiel nonsense there.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 12, 2013 @ 8:17 pm

  14. Oooookkkkk-I watch B and C movies that were better than this episode. Hell I liked Sharknado better than this episode. I have seen movies better acted with has been actors like the guy who played Greg Brady that were better than Misha’s acting in this episode. (Jensens wasn’t much better either sorry to say nor was Jared, Osric or Crowley -sorry its late -can’t think of his name right now.)It doesn’t take much to keep me interested in watching something-Really but this episode was boring as h*ll. Misha can’t carry an episode and the writers give him stories that were already told by way of Sam or Dean in way back seasons ago. There was only maybe two things in this episode that interested me and only because of what may happen in the future (I doubt it will because these writers don’t know how to connect the dots from previous seasons/episodes to current story and keep canon straight but one can only hope)

    I was hoping that Abaddon would mention Dean -but that didn’t happen. But anyway the two things that made me go hmmmm could the writers connect these dots was 1) Abaddon was collecting on the souls that Crowley made deals with-there is Elle out there -could she come back or could Dean think of her and try to rescue her somehow??? 2) the angel spell can’t be reversed. Zeke is a good guy-does he have connection to God?? Could we see God in the future???

    Ok nothing more to say-Horrible terrible episode. What was with the needle thing with Crowley? Hmmmm?

    Comment by animal — November 12, 2013 @ 8:29 pm

  15. Season nine is a total mess so far. I don’t even understand if there is an actual plot whatsoever. Whatever it is, it’s not made very clear. I have not been enjoying this season so far. Hopefully, that will change in the second half of the season.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 12, 2013 @ 9:12 pm

  16. According to an ITK nonnie, this is what the brothers interactions will be in upcoming episodes. Let’s just say that it doesn’t look good at all:

    9×06: Yes, there are only a couple of Sam and Dean scenes but they do talk on the phone more than once during so there’s no brother angst here.

    9×07: This is the Dean centric flashback episode. The majority of the episode the boys are together. This will be more like the dog episode in there will be a few scenes that are just Dean with the guests.

    9×08: They are separated but not the entire episode. There are quite a few Sam and Dean scenes.

    9×09: There are plenty of Sam and Dean scenes in this episode but THIS IS WHERE THINGS SERIOUSLY START TO UNRAVEL IN THE EZEKIEL/SAM THING.

    9X10: They are separated quite a bit here but not all of it.

    9×11: They are completely separated all of this episode.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 12, 2013 @ 9:17 pm

  17. Ok, im really suprised no one has brought this up. Abaddon was at castle storage. Simple easter egg or deeper meaning?

    Comment by avg joe — November 12, 2013 @ 9:20 pm

  18. Oh stop. It’s not that Misha Collins cannot carry an episode. The acting was fine. It’s that all the scenes Cas had in this episode that are supposed to be funny or cute instead come off as unbearably sad, because you spend the entire episode feeling punched in the guts to find out that Dean really DID boot his almost-completely-helpless friend out of the bunker with literally NOTHING. That, by itself, was appalling writing. The Winchesters have NEVER been at a loss for cash or fake credit cards during any previous season– we’re supposed to believe they couldn’t have made one for Cas, so he could at least eat and have somewhere to sleep? Even giving Cas a line like, “Thank-you for offering, Dean, but I cannot accept your fake credit card, I feel strongly that I must earn an honest living for myself,” would have gone a long way towards helping us see Castiel’s struggles as something he really IS choosing (as implied by the angel who showed up to kill him) rather than a hardship that his so-called friend has arbitrarily foisted on him for no good reason.

    Comment by Eansamli — November 13, 2013 @ 1:41 am

  19. Sorry, but I didn’t spend the entire episode feeling “punched in the guts” b/c of Dean’s actions.

    That said, I did find Dean’s teasing Cas about his job rather odd. What did Dean expect Cas to do? That was just weird.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 13, 2013 @ 2:38 am

  20. Without doubt, worst episode of all time, barring the ‘comedy’ ones. Shocker. Disjointed. Over-acted (EVERYONE, except Kevin). And absolutely incoherent plot that went nowhere. And did nobody else thing Abaddon was a different actor this time? She seemed completely different – older, different voice tone??! Terrible.
    Great fan of the show since the beginning, but this was like watching a rookie spec script with home-brand acting and shit direction. Unforgivable.

    Comment by Albit — November 13, 2013 @ 2:55 am

  21. Dean mocked Castiel’s efforts on pretty much everything in the episode, not just his job. Dean also pointed out that Cas’ hunting skills “need improvement,” that he was scared to work a case, that he was wearing the wrong clothes for the date, that he unbuttoned too many buttons when Dean told him to… Even if you could get over Dean not doing more to help Cas in the area of provisions or sending him to stay with another hunter for better protection/supervision, there were still all those harsh comments and quips. It was really tough to like Dean in this episode. :(

    Comment by Eansamli — November 13, 2013 @ 4:02 am

  22. @ Eansamli: Oh, please. The episode was written to show Cas’ learning to be human. The “need improvement” was a reference to an episode in a previous season (I’ll think of it later). The scared comment was showing concern. The date advice was to be funny. Setting Cas up isn’t even a consideration, since the whole point is that Cas is learning to be human and will have to make a choice about staying human or getting his grace back.

    Not liking the episode, not liking the story picked for Cas, not enjoying what was supposed to be humor is all very well and good, but don’t put it down to ‘Dean is mean.’ Dean’s decision is the plot device that moved Cas into his separate story from the Winchesters. Nothing more.

    Comment by Sheri — November 13, 2013 @ 4:19 am

  23. Hm. I still wonder if Ezekiel is gonna turn out evil..? Could swear that angel was one who fought on Lucifer’s side. That could also explain why he said he didn’t want Cas around the bunker……
    and Speaking of Zeke, did they even mention him in this episode, besides the “Previously On”? I forget.

    Next week’s episode looks more old-school and creepy. Looking forward to it.

    Comment by Jean-Luc Picard — November 13, 2013 @ 4:22 am

  24. I’m glad they didn’t show Zeke in this episode. Every week is overdoing it. They need to bring him out only when necessary until it’s time for Sam to find out.
    Can’t have Sam blacking out every day.

    Comment by G-dawg — November 13, 2013 @ 4:41 am

  25. I cannot beleive I fell asleep! After waiting to see this, I must have nodded off right at the beginning!! Now I have to watch it on demand, thank goodness for that. But from what everyone is saying, don’t know how good it was, will watch it anyway, loyal fan.

    Comment by Lucy — November 13, 2013 @ 4:53 am

  26. Wow. Berens hits it out of the park with his first at bat. This episode was wonderful! His characterization of Dean and Cas was perfect. The episode added to the myth arc without destroying canon and it moved the overall arc of the season (what to do about the angels) and the character arcs forward – while still giving us motw action. Plus a female character who’s a decent person and not dead by the end.
    Not to mention Domesti!Cas. Cas + baby is like ‘oh, right in the feels’. Plus we got to see Dean happy for once! This was really satisfying to a lot of the people who ship Destiel because they want Dean to be happy.(like me) Just having them together and being good to each other is pretty much all I want, and this episode was practically perfect in every way, as far as that was concerned.
    Plus I loved the scenes with Crowley – Kevin was fierce (and still has his tat – another example of how awesome the SPN makeup artists are with continuity). We now have conclusive proof that Mark Sheppard can out act most thespians with his hands tied behind his back. (On a side note, who knew petulance could be adorable). Sam was uncharacteristically sneaky in this – it’s a good look for him. Plus it looks like Crowley grabbed the last vial of Sam’s blood from the trial and he’s going whole-hog human. I totally see a ton of delicious snark head. (Delighted sigh)
    I’m thrilled that I have only good things to say this week. In a funny way, it’s kind of awesome that we’re all so different. If people want positivity they can read some folks on the motw epis and me on the myth arc epis. Is good, no?

    Comment by t1gerlilly — November 13, 2013 @ 5:06 am

  27. I agree that it was good to NOT see Zeke this week, and I’ve been loving what Jared has done with the dual roles. But it has been a little much seeing Sam get knocked out each week. I still wish Sam was more curious about his health and readiness to fight, but that doesn’t look like it’s gonna happen.

    Lucy, I understand why you nodded off. The episode was very slow. Seeing Cas work the slurpee machine is not high drama.

    One thing I found interesting was Cas’s perspective on his time as an angel, and how it had pretty much been a failure. I feel Sam has similar thoughts in that he’s failed at everything he’s tried too. They have a lot in common. It’s a shame they rarely interact.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 13, 2013 @ 5:19 am

  28. Was the Castiel story shot in slow-motion or was it Collins milking every line as if high drama was involved if he scratched his ass? Nothing funny or interesting or scary–Castiel learns that working as a store clerk is beneath him. Only Hollywood writers would be unaware of how elitist their views are. I personally felt totally manipulated: you SPN fans will have to watch a series of SPN snippets back in the MOL bunker while Collins pleases his fans by going on a date and handles a baby so his online fans can gush about how cute and darling he is. At least Jared was still in a SPN plot; poor Jensen had to stand around and play second banana to Collins’ sad-eyed, over-acted stretching of a 5 minute story into a 45 minutes of boring dialogue that would get a soap opera staff fired. This was not SPN, but simply Collins screen time. The only part that was interesting was Castiel’s female co-worker who like his fans inexplicably find this boring, mundane, 40 year old somehow attractive and worthy of spending time with, but even she picked someone else to go out with for an entertaining evening. Wish I had made the same choice of finding another source of entertainment last night.

    Comment by CaseyT — November 13, 2013 @ 6:12 am

  29. I agree, CaseyT, that Collins’ over-acted and that his time on screen was stretched out to fill up minutes. I thought Dean’s dialogue in the episode was, for the most part, straight from a cardboard caricature of Dean Winchester.

    And it looks to me like the badass Dean of the first couple of episodes is quickly slipping back into emoting, angsting Dean. Have these writers never been outside of their plastic little Hollywood life and encountered blue-collar workers at any time in their life? Have they had no life experiences, except spats with girlfriends?

    I didn’t like the 40ish female manager. Like the episode, she was just there gaggling over Cas and how “special” he was — but not “special” enough to date, apparently.

    I thought Sam looked pretty inept falling for Crowley’s quid pro quo immediately after Dean warned him against it. And what was the outcome? Crowley got some of Kevin’s blood, for whatever purpose that may or may not mean, on top of leaving the dungeon door open so that when he went back, he could peak and see what Crowley was doing.

    Fortunately, I recorded The Voice and can watch that today.

    Comment by Sheri — November 13, 2013 @ 6:46 am

  30. I thought the episode was surprisingly funny. There were several times I caught myself laughing at one liners, which I much prefer over having entire episodes that are supposed to be humorous. I definitely like what they seem to be setting up with Crowley and Abbadon and it could fall in line with this all working towards Lucifer coming back. Abbadon is more like Lilith – older, more traditionally evil demon – and she wants Hell full of souls and chaos. On the other hand, this is the third time Crowley’s said something about the need to stick to the contracts they make and even Hell needs some sort of order. If he thinks Abbadon is going to try to raise Lucifer – it would make sense for him to again throw in with the Winchesters, i.e. making himself human. I would also guess he wanted Kevin’s blood because not only was it never tainted with demon blood, as a prophet of the Lord, that would seem like the faster way to cleanse yourself.

    I also really liked Kevin tonight, and he’s probably been my least favorite recurring character. He seemed stronger, less whiny. I don’t think Sam letting him have his “phone call” makes him inept; the fact is they were going to have to give him something for the translation, because, as Crowley pointed out, he has nothing but time. The phone call/blood was an easily monitored thing to offer. And it would appear it worked in their favor since Crowley now knows he’s losing his hold on Hell.

    I didn’t notice Abbadon being at castle storage, but since she’s already mentioned wanting Dean’s body, maybe her plan is possess (doesn’t need consent, just needs to get rid of the tattoo) and then raise Lucifer, which might force Sam to say yes. Just a thought.

    I will also add that I love Castiel, but I agree with those who didn’t care much for how they seemed to go out of their way to bash convenience store clerks. That seemed kind of mean. Same with how Dean just apparently kicked Cas out without money or a place to live, and I don’t think Cas even asked why. That doesn’t make a lot of sense.

    Comment by Sarah — November 13, 2013 @ 7:00 am

  31. I don’t know where people are getting that the show bashed convenience story workers. Dean said Cas was capable of so much more, having fought Heavenly wars, and Cas immediately pointed out the pride and value one can find in any job. Dean was feeling badly for Cas’ circumstances, not bashing anything.

    I think the Crowley scene puts the fans on notice that the SPN landscape is changing. I expect to see fallen angels on earth from now on; the new ‘demons,’ no doubt.

    Comment by Sheri — November 13, 2013 @ 7:24 am

  32. I enjoyed this episode! Already from the previews I got the feeling that this episode would have more meat on the bones than Slumber Party and Dog Dean Afternoon.

    Recently, I had seen scenes from Free to Be You and Me and I was hoping similar interaction between Cas and Dean and there was! Cas works best when he is with Dean. Dean looked so good at the store and it was cute how he was like a big brother and mentor on women. Cas seemed more appreciative than Sam ever was about the tips :D

    I thought Dean handled Cas’ admission of being scared in a great way. He says Cas should stay safe and have a normal life. I liked that Cas didn’t seem mad at Dean. If they are as good friends as they are implied to be, Cas would know how bad Dean feels about it all and how he must have a good reason. Cas being basically homeless and Dean just asking “where to” was a little weird though.

    I’m scared that Dean is burning bridges all around.

    Crowley and his Moose are definitely going to get closer in the long run although I expect Crowley to still try to betray the boys at some point. I found it very interesting that Crowley didn’t want more of Sam’s blood.

    I think Dean is afraid that Zeke reacted badly to the news. I expected to see Zeke pop out in the end when Sam was cleaning the bowl.

    I agree that we might be heading into territory where Sam is being possessed by and angel and Dean by a demon.

    Comment by San — November 13, 2013 @ 7:32 am

  33. Dean and Cas just don’t work. AT ALL. This was not SPN. This was a comedy. I’m not here for that.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 13, 2013 @ 7:59 am

  34. @ CaseyT:

    Looks like you and I are in the minority who absolutely hated this episode and thought it was a waste of time and screen time.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 13, 2013 @ 8:01 am

  35. Castiel committed all of this horrible stuff in both season seven and season eight, and this season, I’m supposed to buy him as this helpless human? Give me a beak. I don’t buy any of it.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 13, 2013 @ 8:08 am

  36. Ugh. Really didn’t like this one. (CaseyT and Caitlin, you’re not the only ones)

    Castiel is mind-numbingly boring as a human, Misha over-emoted and his scenes even with Dean were same old, same old. I just don’t like their interaction together anymore, it’s been over used and the chemistry seems forced. I know I’m going on and on, but I ended the show thinking, “what did I just watch???”.

    Nothing much seemed to happen, except for the “spell cant be reversed” revelation. Dean was portrayed as weak, angsty, lying, AND was acting like a jerk about Cas working in the store. What the heck did he expect Cas to do? I can’t believe that Dean would ever be like that. And Sam was just not being clever at all. Why would they ever allow Crowley to contact Abaddon, whatever the reason? And then they showed the door being left wide open.

    Sorry. In my opinion, it was a very idiotic, boring and badly-written episode. And I REALLY must have disliked it to write that. Blah.

    Comment by Tammy — November 13, 2013 @ 8:46 am

  37. Ps. I think you’d really need to be a Cas fan to like this one. Wow, I’m being really judgmental here. Sorry, I just feel cheated.

    Comment by Tammy — November 13, 2013 @ 8:49 am

  38. @28. Casey T, I love your post, especially the bit about whether Cas’ story was shot in slow motion! Hahaha. Soooo true.

    Comment by Tammy — November 13, 2013 @ 8:59 am

  39. I think the blood-injection thing from Crowley is just him trying to escape from his Devil’s Trap. He knows nobody in Hell is coming to spring him, but he also knows that if Sam’s blood “cures” him of his demon-ness, that might complete the ritual that would let Sam seal up Hell, which Crowley wants to avoid. But if he can find a way to get enough of Kevin’s blood to transform himself into something human enough to escape the warding, then all he would have to do is pick the locks on his chains or trick one of the gang into taking them off for humanitarian reasons, and then he’s outta there. :P

    Comment by Eansamli — November 13, 2013 @ 9:15 am

  40. The convenience store clerk bashing occurred when Cas mentioned the dignity that comes w/the job, and his co+worker immediately tells him there is a mess in the bathroom to clean. The implication is that the job is NOT dignified and should be nothing anyone enjoys. That bothered me. There is dignity in honest work. Cas, himself, seemd to like his job and found purpose in it. Dean was intent on knocking him for that.

    Dean’s attitude re: Cas’s job was troublesome. What did Dean expect him to do? He has no identity, no SS#, no friends, no family, no skills, no resume – so what did he do? He got a job and was trying to make a life for himself. What was Dean’s
    What was Dean’s problem w/that? Saying “you used to be angel” was pointless b/c he’s no longer an angel; he’s human. He has no training as a hunter, and unlike Super Charlie, he can’t just pick it up.

    I like Castiel, but as usual, I see nothing overly special about his interaction w/Dean. The Sam haters over on IMDb are falling over themselves w/r/t this episode, and I feel like I’m missing something. What was so special or interesting about the Dean/Cas scenes? I honestly ask that as someone who LIKES Cas. The scenes were fine, nothing special IMO.

    I thought Cas’s co-worker was a bitch for inviting Cas to her home but NOT making it clear that he was supposed to babysit for her? Who does that?

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 13, 2013 @ 9:32 am

  41. Sorry for the typos! Typing on a Blackberry does that :-)

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 13, 2013 @ 9:36 am

  42. Well, I don’t actually dislike Cas either (though I might change my mind after this episode), but I REALLY didn’t like him it it. He’s okay as part of the big story, when he’s interacting with the Winchesters.

    But a special ‘Cas story’? No way, esp after this. Ridiculous! I tried hard to like it, honestly, but it just couldn’t redeem itself. Tbh, the Cas/Dean scenes really grated on me as they seemed so force and badly acted.

    And yes, Lisa1. They DID portray the job as being undignified, esp through Dean’s eyes. Hated the bathroom cleaning insinuation.

    Comment by Tammy — November 13, 2013 @ 9:47 am

  43. Crowley might now have a craving kind of like Sam did for demon blood except in Crowley’s case it would be a good thing and probably less severe cold turkey. Really feeling something after all that time must have been exhilarating. I think that a process was started and it’s no turning back. Demon Crowley also knows the value of a human soul, innocence. A demon with a side of humanity could actually be a bigger force than any pure blooded evil creature.

    But I like your theory Eansamli!

    @Lisa1 I dunno I was charmed by some of their interactions. :D Like the look on Dean’s face when Cas denied that it was about a girl. Classic big brother. It reminds me of the way Dean said “Sammy” when Sam tried to deny being scared of clowns in 7.14.

    Comment by San — November 13, 2013 @ 9:51 am

  44. I am curious about Crowley injecting himself. What that Kevin’s blood? If so will the blood of a prophet do something for him that normal blood won’t do? I mean, is Crowley just going to sit chained in a closet all season?
    Was glad NO Zeke this episode. Did not miss him.
    I think Sam was rather weak-minded in his dealings with Crowley. Quick to give him what he wants and quick to believe what he said. I think he should have been as wary as Kevin was. And I also did not think getting Crowley to read those symbols at that very moment was URGENT. It could have waited until Dean came back and the three of them discussed it.
    Liked the “Evil” Angel here; the fact that he thought he was doing right made some sense. Who knows what other kind of Angels have been thrown out of Heaven.
    I was disappointed that Dean left Cas behind. He can see what humanity is doing to him and he knows the very real risk to Cas- not only from Angels and Demons- but from humans. And yet he leaves him behind knowing he does not even have a motel room to stay in. Not the Dean Winchester that SHOULD be on this show.
    Not a Great episode but those do not exist anymore. But it was better than last week. Not interested in seeing Dean’s childhood ventures next week.
    The heart of this show is missing and I wonder if it will ever come back.

    Comment by SL — November 13, 2013 @ 9:53 am

  45. SL, the lack of a motel room bugged me too. That’s why I thought Dean’s line “Where to” was bad. Maybe he didn’t know that Cas doesn’t have a place to stay but Dean had to have figured it out if work clothes are the only thing Cas can wear on a date, he has no transportation etc. Kevin got a motel room and porn for days on end, what gives. Well, maybe it was on Kevin’s dime but didn’t sound like it. I expected Dean to make some sort of token gesture like wishing Cas could come back to the bunker or something like it.

    I hope they boys work on the translations themselves to figure out if Crowley is inconsistent.

    Comment by San — November 13, 2013 @ 10:13 am

  46. A poster on another board said the writer tweeted that the blood in the vial Crowley shot up was Kevin’s blood. Maybe that means something.

    Comment by Sheri — November 13, 2013 @ 10:21 am

  47. OK, my absolutely last negative comment about the episode…

    Who the heck leaves their baby with a weird, homeless guy they know nothing about? So many things bothered me about ‘Heaven Can’t Wait’.

    Comment by Tammy — November 13, 2013 @ 11:31 am

  48. @ Tammy: Cas is just shoehorned in to give the Js more time off, so they make up sh** to give him a story. I couldn’t stand the stupid manager; not the actress, but the way the character was written.

    Comment by Sheri — November 13, 2013 @ 11:35 am

  49. Maybe somebody here can help me with a question. It is me or it is worth to leave my what? Five? Six? months old baby with a coworker I just met a couple of months ago so I can go in a date with a supposedly dream gal? If she is the owner of this store she at least shuold have enough to hire a professional baby sitter. I read somewhere that this is a possible recurring character. I dont mind a possible love interest for Cas, but I hope they dont give us a crappy one.
    Like the angel killing story thought. Like Crowley and the spell things and the story overall. Loved Sam dealing with the researching and the way the boys were apart but still in touch.
    I already saw enough of Cas dealing with his humanity, hope they move on and get a good story for him.

    Comment by LG — November 13, 2013 @ 11:35 am

  50. @ Tammy 47 though it was just me.

    Comment by LG — November 13, 2013 @ 11:47 am

  51. I agree that the date / stuck on babysitter duty subplot was weak. Hey maybe she was somehow subconsciously influenced by Cas’ good nature, him having been an angel etc. (she called her baby her angel) and thus was acting nothing like a regular person would when getting someone to watch over her child but it was still bizarre. The lines were contrived too like when she asked him whether he could come to her place. Where would she have dropped the kid if Cas had said no?

    Comment by San — November 13, 2013 @ 12:06 pm

  52. Her actions were right up there with Lisa allowing a virtual stranger to move into her home with her pre-teen child. She did NOT know Dean, and she certainly didn’t know him well enough to just let him move into her house.

    In Supernatural, women make whacky decisions.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 13, 2013 @ 12:10 pm

  53. @52 – To be fair, Lisa knew Dean was a hunter, that he’d saved her, Ben, and most of the neighborhood, then came back to warn her about the Apocalypse, and how she didn’t need to be scared, then came back again, saying his brother was dead and he had nothing.

    Point being, I would have let him stay for a couple days. Maybe not so much leave my baby with a random guy I’ve worked a month or two with.

    Comment by Sarah — November 13, 2013 @ 12:37 pm

  54. Now that we’ve been told that the spell cannot be reversed, something tells me that this is going to end up being tied back to the Lucifer plot. I have feeling that that plot is still jingling in the background. Because in 2014, Castiel is human.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 13, 2013 @ 12:53 pm

  55. Lisa, those haters at imdb just want Dean to get away from Sam so they coo over every Dean/Cas moment. Same with Benny. I don’t understand how Dean’s relationship with Cas or Benny is supposed to be so healthy and great compared to the bond with Sam. I don’t see this special chemistry either.

    Comment by very bored Sam fan — November 13, 2013 @ 12:55 pm

  56. @55: Completely agreed. This show is successful because of Dean/Sam and J2. Not because of Destiel or Denny or whatever the hell it is. I watch this show for the brothers and their bond. If that is not there, then the entire show becomes off. I’m sick to death of all of these Destiel shippers. They have managed to turn a great show into such a joke with their stupidity. I’m so glad I do not participate in thee SPN fandom nor have anything to do with it.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 13, 2013 @ 12:58 pm

  57. I’m not a big fan of the Sam-and-Dean-should-have-a-healthier-relationship -movement. Healthy is more boring in this case. They have always been something else than just brothers and that is what makes it special. Even when the writers seem to want to make the boys “mature” it doesn’t stick and I think the reason is that it just doesn’t fit the characters. Sam and Dean are never going to be “normal”. And that leads to great opportunities for the story to go and still be believable.

    Comment by San — November 13, 2013 @ 1:15 pm

  58. @San: Exactly. I love Sam AND Dean because they’re not normal. The bond they have is something beyond that of regular family. or friendship. Even Dean said in 5×04 to Sam: “whatever we have between us, love, family, whatever it is..” gave away that Sam and Dean’s bond isn’t normal and should never be portrayed as such. I don’t want a “healthy” relationship between Sam and Dean. That is boring. If I did, I would support Dean and Cas or Dean and Benny, but I do not. Because those two relationships bores me.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 13, 2013 @ 1:34 pm

  59. This episode was embarassing in many ways. The last 2 episodes were kind of shit, but at least I expected them to be shit. I was really looking forward to this one and it really was a let down, for the most part.

    First I thought the angel (whatever they called it) was kind of a interesting story. This season is about the fallen angels, so after a few random stories it was about the main storyline again. The other positive things were the fact that there is no way to reverse the spell, and Crowley injecting the human blood.. both things that bring up questions and could lead to more interesting episodes. The other interesting thing was the Castiels struggle at being a human. With that I don’t mean the awkward dating part, but I mean that there is still a part of him that wants or feels the need to fight and help the angels.

    But then you have the Phone call.. bad connection, really? Putting him on hold? Like, are they trying to be funny with that? And then you had the AWFULL part with Castiels date that turned out to be babysitting. I mean come on, he was like the ruler of heaven, or at least one of the leaders of the angels, and now he spills milkshakes and gets used for babysitting? When he was talking to the baby I knew that the angel would come, and of course that Dean would come to the rescue.. not original at all.

    My main problem with the Cas story is that they are trying to make it funny. The last part of this episode where he was struggling inside with his feelings about helping other angels, that was the most interesting part to me. That is Cas experiencing human feelings. And I have a feeling that he will get the urge to fight very soon. All the awkward moments kind of bring the character Castiel down.I really hope that he will get stronger, or at least more like he was before in the next season. The writers are really making him look dumb, and the character doesn’t deserve that imo.

    And then with dean leaving Cas again. I know he picks his brother over Castiel (Zeke would leave, it would kill Sam), so I get that he doesn’t take him to the bunker, but he could at least help him to get a home and clothes etc.

    Kevin was, for once, one of the good things of this episode. Not being a coward, but wanting to get answers.

    After 2 dumb ‘funny’ episodes I expected this to be a more serious episode, and all we got were a lot of lame moments where they tried to be funny, but failed horribly. I was hoping for a dark, serious episode. There were some good moments, and some awkward/bad moments but overall this is kind of a let down to me.

    Now the next episode is going to be about a ghosthunt, which could be interesting… but I have a feeling, again this will be an attempt to create a funny episode (with deans childhood memories). I really hope this season will get better. I have a feeling it will, but maybe it’s false hope.

    Comment by Robin — November 13, 2013 @ 1:38 pm

  60. @Caitlin: Yes! And I feel like if the relationship between Sam and Dean was turned more normal it would take away from the side characters too. Comments that Crowley, Zacharias, Michael etc. etc. have made about the bond between Sam and Dean would sting a lot less. Also one of them walking away, being hurt and so on.

    @Robin: I felt that the date thing kind of castrated Cas… Nice guys finish last but it was just cringeworthy. Holding a rose and everything and ending up getting used by someone he didn’t even seem to have a real interest in romantically in the first place.

    Cas being a human story will be more interesting if they have him fighting, training to be a hunter so to speak. No powers to magically save the day. Him struggling with the day-to-day stuff shouldn’t be the focus from here on.

    Comment by San — November 13, 2013 @ 2:11 pm

  61. I guess I just feel that Castiel’s character on this show just doesn’t serve any actual purpose anymore. it’s like Castiel only exists on this show for comedy and fan service. Castiel should have only been on the show from season four to season six. That was when Castiel’s character actually had meaning. Now, his character has turned into a laughing stock. He’s being used for comic relief on the show. But the problem is, Cas isn’t coming off as someone finn,y he’s just coming off as unfunny and someone who has turned into a complete e joke. That is why I cannot take Castiel as a character seriously anymore. I mean, Castiel did all this crappy stuff in both season seven and season eight and we are supposed to buy into Cas being some woobified hopeless human? It’s ridiculous and does not do his character justice. On top of it, all of the Dean and Cas scenes come off as awkward and meaningless and forced. There is no chemistry there and I feel like the writers are just forcing Dean and Cas interaction for fan service. SPN has become about fan service and I’m not here for that. I want to watch a show with a good plot, solid characterization and story lines that make actual sense. Not a show that caters to a small, vocal minority who want to see two male characters getting it on (and yes, I am all for slash shipping. I love Klaine from Glee). But SPN is not about shipping and the small, vocal minority of the audience has managed to make this show about something that it is not or something that it has never intended to be about.

    And I can’t help but feel that now that Cas is human and now that we have discovered that the spell cannot be reversed, w are bound to see 2014!Cas come into play, which means that the whole Lucifer, apocalypse plot or storyline is still looming around in the background.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 13, 2013 @ 2:45 pm

  62. I, too, have a feeling that there is a bit of fan service going on. Why else have that plot about a baby unless it’s to show Cas holding her? I hope the lady isn’t going to stick around. It would make me think the show is trying to cast less “threathening” female characters as love interests or something, blegh.

    PS. I find it interesting that John said yes to Michael to save his wife. There is some sort of parallel going on.

    Comment by San — November 13, 2013 @ 3:12 pm

  63. The anti-working class bias of this episode really bugs me. I don’t know how those people at the desk in a 7-11 deal with making the coffee, monitoring the pumps, checking lottery tickets, running the cash register, and performing multiple other tasks; they are the ultimate multi-taskers. Who sees honest work as humiliating? Finding their work humiliating for precious Castiel was disgusting. Worse, Berens even had Dean Winchester, the working class hero, seeing this work as humiliating for his precious Castiel. So completely and utterly not Dean. There has not been this blatant anti-working class bias in SPN before. There was not a hint of that “working class work demeans me” when Sam, a master hunter and Stanford graduate, became a motel handyman. Berens next episode should have Castiel getting a job at writing for tv and finding out that some condescending s.o.b.’s get big bucks writing put-downs on the work and the people they think beneath them.

    Comment by CaseyT — November 13, 2013 @ 3:31 pm

  64. The male-female relationships on the show have always been inherently unsatisfying because they’re never relationships of equals. We don’t ever see any female hunters that could hang with the Winchesters for any length of time without getting killed. And their civilian girlfriends and hookups, who are supposed to fulfill that deep-seated need for domesticity and normality, pretty much always turn out to be angst-inducing liabilities too. In order for Sam or Dean to date somebody on their own level, I think they’d basically have to start dating the female characters from “Buffy the Vampire Slayer.” :P So I think the writers have written themselves into a corner with the brothers on the romance issue, and that’s maybe why this season they’re focusing the stupid hookups, relationships and fan-service stuff on Cas… But my guess would be that long-term, Cas won’t succeed at it any more than Sam or Dean ever did.

    Comment by Eansamli — November 13, 2013 @ 3:44 pm

  65. @CaseyT

    Not entirely sure where you get the idea that Dean is working class? He’s a thief and a conman at heart. Blame it on how he was raised and the life he lives if you like but he totally would see a mundane 9-5 job as beneath him. And frankly it would be. I could never do something like that myself so I can totally accept that Dean would see a regular job as demeaning. Maybe not in general but certainly to people like Cas and himself, who have a more important calling.

    Comment by Just Sayin' — November 13, 2013 @ 4:04 pm

  66. I don’t think romance is going to be in the cards for any of these characters; it doesn’t fit the show and it doesn’t fit the hunting life. Hook ups are about all that is available. I don’t think it’s fair to blame that on the writers writing themselves in a corner though. The fact that the majority of the female fanbase immediately hate all females introduced has become a sad but true joke, starting all the way back with Jo. Just reading this message board for just this season has had multiple posts hating on Charlie, Tracy (hunter that hated Sam), and the store manager, and the last two had, what, a grand total of 10 minutes of screen time?

    Comment by Sarah — November 13, 2013 @ 4:05 pm

  67. @65 – Dean spent a year working construction while with Lisa. How much more working class can you get? He also has said multiple times he doesn’t think he’s anything special and him and Sam are no different than anybody else (I’m not saying I agree, but he said it).
    I think the statements here were supposed to be jokes as well as Dean just trying to get Cas to come with him because he wanted his help. I don’t think he thinks he’s better than anyone or above the job though.

    Comment by Sarah — November 13, 2013 @ 4:13 pm

  68. Well, I thought the baby moment was intended as a dual metaphor – first to contrast with when he was an angel and could just heal the baby directly, so that you could see him grappling with the loss of his grace and the powerlessness of being human. It was also supposed to bring to mind Dean’s comment that Cas is a baby in a trench coat. It underscores powerfully how little experience he really has in being human. The baby also engages Cas in a way you don’t see earlier in the episode. He shows it tenderness and care, and you can see the promise of a normal life, but when the consequences of his actions seem to her eaten it, we see him fiercely protective – a guardian as he has always been.
    I’m really surprised that animal and others with the headcanon that Cas was a guardian to the Winchesters didn’t pick up on the fact that even when human, Cas finds himself back in that role.
    Personally, I don’t think that Dean was slamming Cas’s job. I think in a way, just like the angel of mercy, he was recalling Cas to his responsibilities. Responsibilities he has because he has abilities no one else has. The same was he recalled Sam to his responsibilities at the beginning of season eight, but gentler than he was with Sam. I think, just as Cas watched Dean raking leaves and tried to leave him to a normal life, this was Dean grappling with the idea that Cas would have a normal life and letting him go.
    (I’ve seen some people say that Cas is using Dean as a template for being human and that we’re kind of seeing season 6 fast forwarded in Cas’s arc. Personally, I hope not, because that did not end well.)
    @Casey – oh, and Casey, yes, I like Cas and babies and puppies and rainbows. If it makes you feel better about yourself to sneer at me because I like Cas and babies and puppies and rainbows, feel free. I mean, if it makes you feel better, it doesn’t matter to me. But then I have Cas and puppies and rainbows and babies to comfort me. (Yes, I am referencing the ‘please don’t make me too happy song’ by Christine Lavin, hitch all writers should know.)

    Comment by t1gerlilly — November 13, 2013 @ 4:26 pm

  69. Ugh I hate typing on a tablet – from above “when the consequences of his actions threaten her…”

    Comment by t1gerlilly — November 13, 2013 @ 4:28 pm

  70. @Sarah

    Working construction involves strength and skill. Nothing wrong with a guy doing that to make a buck. Working in a shop or fast food place? Not so much. That said, even the construction work wasn’t right for Dean. The job, along with everything else about that year, was for the benefit of Lisa and the facade of the ‘normal life’ Dean was trying to convince himself he wanted. Ultimately none of it stuck. That’s who he pretended to be. Not who he is.

    It’s like the episodes of Buffy season six, where you saw her working flipping burgers. How unnatural was it to see Buffy in that Doublemeat Palace uniform? She’s a Slayer. She shouldn’t be wasting her life serving bad food to fat people. She’s better than that. The bodyguard job she got working for Kennedy during season nine at least put her Slayer abilities to good use.

    Honestly, jobs like that really are demeaning to anyone, but to people who spend their lives demon hunting and saving the world from evil on a weekly basis? It’s not something they should have to do. I wouldn’t eat in a fast food joint, let alone work in one. Why should Dean be any different?

    Comment by Just Sayin' — November 13, 2013 @ 4:54 pm

  71. Wow, that really sucked.
    I mean, that statement alone pretty much covers it, but, Cas not even getting indignant about the way Dean just threw him out on the street, at the mercy of rogue angels who want to kill him and homeless? Dean being so uncompassionate about it all? Sam nbot even really questioning too hard why Dean insisted on going without him? And then the most stupid thing, finding out that there’s no way to reverse Metatron’s spell? Then what the hell is the point of the remaining angel tablets? And worse, now Cas will never be able to regain his grace and become an angel again, honestly for me, Cas had intense chemistry with Dean when he was an angel, now though, I think it’s waning. Just as Carver destroyed the once enormous chemistry between San and Dean. And I’m sorry to admit, I don’t think it’s ever quite recovered.
    So, here Dean was supposed to have an important, major storyline finally after fans like me waiting so long for this. Instead, these writers seem hellbent on destoying his character and turning him into someone even I currently don’t like.
    Jeremy Carver has destroyed this show, and these characters. He should be fired by CW in my opinion.
    And Jensen’s acting lately just seems like going through the motions. I think he’s just so disillusioned that he’s just showing up and filling contractual obligations. I think that he, like the rest of us, really thought that this season would finally be his time. Finding out that, yet again, he was wrong, you can sort of see, episode by episode, that he just isn’t giving it his all anymore. It’s sad to see. He deserved so much better after loyally giving his best with the sidekick material he’s been giver for so many years. I just hope that after SPN, somebody takes a chance on him and he really gets a meaty role that he can soar with and make people outside of SPN fandom take notice. My fear is that these last crappy seasons has ruined his and Jared’s chances at a real acting career after SPN.
    And although I at first thought Jared was faring better getting a juicy dual role, now that too, is beginning to get stale. I love Jared, but I am really wondering what he has been putting in his coffee for him to believe that this season would be the best yet.
    I just wish that CW would fire Carver, convince Eric Kripke to come back and rescue his creation, and give it a satisfying finish before Carver totally runs it into the ground.

    Comment by roxi — November 13, 2013 @ 5:27 pm

  72. OMG. I loved 9.06!! Robert Berens brought a fresh new perspective to the show. The characters never looked so real as in Heaven Can’t Wait and after all, this episode had 2.35 MIllion viewers. SPN 2nd episode this season with the highest ratings so far :D I’m so excited with Berens’ potential. I want to see more!

    Comment by Susanna — November 13, 2013 @ 5:29 pm

  73. Roxi-Jensen is known outside of the spn fandom-His name keeps coming up for Marvel movies. The latest is a new mini series -can’t remember the name. But its about 5 different super heros’ each episode is about 1 of them. The Avengers or something like that. And Jensen has been mentioned quite abit for one of the roles. He actually has quite a following for the super hero roles. The super hero “geeks” (meant as a nice thing not a cut down) want him bad for somekind of role. A lot of them were p.o’d that he didn’t get the batman role. And this new series would work out for Jensen if spn is done in 10 seasons. And Jensen leaves after 10.

    Comment by animal — November 13, 2013 @ 5:52 pm

  74. Here are more specifics about this mini -series. Its a 13 episode series that consists of Daredevil, Iron Fist, Jessica Jones and Luke Cage who eventually will make up “The Defenders”. Jensen has been mentioned for Iron Fist although some would like him to be Luke Cage. But they seem to agree that Jensen is more suited for Iron Fist.

    Jensen doing the Red Hood got him noticed among those Super Hero “geeks” (again in a nice way not a put down. So yea-his name is out there.

    Comment by animal — November 13, 2013 @ 5:58 pm

  75. By the way -I think someone mentioned this before but -can someone explain to me why the “tablet reader prophet” Kevin- can’t read the tablets??? I find this strange. And then this thing with Zeke/Sam-Since Zeke is in Sams head and he knows what Sam knows-per s9e2 wouldn’t Zeke know when Sam is starting to question things about Zeke or whatever Sam is going to start questioning to get to the big fight between Sam and Dean? So wouldn’t he warn Dean that Sam is getting close to figuring out that something isn’t right??? Or will they go the route that Zeke has overstayed and he has to get out of Sam because Sam is deteriorating??? That would make more sense than Sam figuring out that something isn’t right because Zeke would know it and warn Dean about it. And probably Mind wash/wipe Sam-or whatever they call it. And if they didn’t Mind wash/wipe why wouldn’t they? Just saying-strange.

    Comment by animal — November 13, 2013 @ 6:09 pm

  76. Good grief, animal. Your intimate knowledge of the Marvel Universe and its characters is astounding! “The Avengers or something like that”? Really?

    I’m going to assume you mean the new Marvel Netflix deal that’s leading up to The Defenders mini? If Jensen’s been mentioned then it’s going to be either for the Daredevil or Iron Fist role (obviously not for Luke Cage…) but then every actor and his brother has now been mentioned for these roles if you look hard enough. Frankly Jensen isn’t particularly right for either one. He could play Matt at a push but he’s not right for Danny. Actually he was much more appropriate for Hawkeye but that ship has obviously sailed.

    I do find it rather rude when I read people basically saying that just because they don’t like Supernatural anymore that means Jared and Jensen should quit and move on. If they are still enjoying making the show and are proud of the work they put out then that’s up to them, surely? Not to mention the fact that it seems to me that Supernatural’s audience is growing again, rather than getting smaller, so maybe the whiny contingent of the fanbase should consider the fact that they are in the minority and that they are the ones who need to quit the show. Not Jensen and Jared.

    Comment by Just Sayin' — November 13, 2013 @ 6:09 pm

  77. Nice Google’in’ there, animal.

    But Jared as Luke Cage? I see a problem with that idea…

    Comment by Just Sayin' — November 13, 2013 @ 6:11 pm

  78. By the way, to clarify, the Netflix deal is actually five different series, one each for Matt, Luke, Danny and Jess, followed by a Defenders mini series that will see them joining together. All set in the same fictional universe as the Avengers movies and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

    Comment by Just Sayin' — November 13, 2013 @ 6:15 pm

  79. Looking forward to next weeks episode-from the promo it looks like a nod to s1. Hoping it is scary, dark and dreary and the brothers come out as hero’s. Hoping Dean (Jensen’s Dean) gets some kisses from Robin. Is that her name??. A split screen with young Dean kissing the young Robin and then on the other side an adult Dean kissing adult Robin would be nice. But ehhh probably not going to happen. One can hope.

    Comment by animal — November 13, 2013 @ 6:15 pm

  80. @ CaseyT: EK knew what working class was. These writers have no concept, nor do they want to learn. It’s too distainful from their high on perches in their little Hollywood bubble. They have no interest in learning or observing. This includes Jeremy Carver and that’s why he has changed the whole tone of the show and changed two badass hunters (and a warrior) angel into guys that might as well carry purses.

    When I started this season, all I wanted was for Dean to be badass. That is already done and over with and we’re back to angst and emoting Dean.

    Sam is neutered into…really a nobody. All of his attributes — smart, connecting the dots, coming up with surprising plans, good at research, a brother that kept Dean in line — all of that has been given to the new and brilliantly conceived support characters — step brothers and sisters.

    Our boys are now upper middle class, living in fine new digs, wearing expensive suits, living the good life. I mean, seriously, does anybody here think differently?

    I do have a question about a line Dean said that I didn’t get at all. When he said, “My dates usually end when I run out of singles.” I may be naive, but what does that even mean?

    Comment by Sheri — November 13, 2013 @ 6:18 pm

  81. Well thanks Just Sayin for correcting me-you didn’t have to be rude about it but whatever. I actually corrected myself. I am confused about your “Jared as Luke Cage” I never said that. Obviously you must be one of the super hero geeks??? Since you broke it down further than I did. I just saw some articles and some posts about this mini series and was stating what I saw/knew. So sue me I got the name wrong at first. Peace.

    Comment by animal — November 13, 2013 @ 6:22 pm

  82. Singles = dollar bills.

    Dean meant that his dates were basically him going to strip joints.

    Comment by Just Sayin' — November 13, 2013 @ 6:22 pm

  83. Loves me some Marvel Universe but I’m about as far away from being a geek as is possible, I’d say. Although I do think geek girls are incredibly hot, so there’s that.

    And sorry for the sounding rude thing. That first paragraph was actually meant to be slightly more tongue-in-cheek. Meant to end it with a winky face but must have forgotten to.

    Comment by Just Sayin' — November 13, 2013 @ 6:28 pm

  84. I wish I could just get some solid Sam POV. I never get it and I’ve honestly been waiting for it for 9 seasons now. Sam is constantly myth arc, myth arc, myth arc. Okay, I get it. But can’t we get some insight to what Sam feels, thinks for one episode? Is that too much to ask for?

    Comment by Caitlin — November 13, 2013 @ 6:29 pm

  85. Oh and Just Sayin you might not think Jensen is right for Iron Fist but others think he can. Yea there is -like the batman movie-names floated around forever. The fact that he is mentioned at all though is a good thing. Just saying!! lol.

    Comment by animal — November 13, 2013 @ 6:30 pm

  86. Then ‘others’ don’t know Danny Rand all that well! ;)

    Comment by Just Sayin' — November 13, 2013 @ 6:32 pm

  87. Like I said, I can picture Jensen as Matt (gotta be a better choice than Affleck was, right?) but he just would not fit the part of Iron Fist at all.

    Now Moon Knight? That would work.

    Comment by Just Sayin' — November 13, 2013 @ 6:37 pm

  88. There is no reason to ever watch this episode again! At least in I’m no Angel the Dean and Sam scenes were worth re-watching.

    The longest hour of Supernatural ever!!!

    The best part were the two anti-texting ads, and they were in the first half hour.

    Comment by mj — November 13, 2013 @ 6:41 pm

  89. I hate, hate (really hate) Castiel, but I didn’t hate this episode (surprise). I could ignore the Cas scenes and love the Sam scenes.

    Comment by RS — November 13, 2013 @ 8:31 pm

  90. @ Just Sayin’ #82: Thanks. So our Dean doesn’t go for the ladies anymore. I thought that may be what was meant, but wasn’t sure.

    Comment by Sheri — November 13, 2013 @ 8:39 pm

  91. @82. I hadn’t gotten the reference either, so thanks.

    @roxi. I loved Dog Dean Afternoon, and I thought Jensen did a brilliant job with it, and Jared was great too. The episode had the potential to be a disaster but the guys’ acting made it hilarious without bring cartoonish! I’m not finding their acting jaded or ‘going through motions’ at all this season, and Im feeling that they’re very connected and in sync, like the old days. So am really happy about that

    And then they come up with Heaven Can’t Wait. YUCK! sucked big time.

    I don’t get why they keep alternately, sometimes together, making the boys into wimps/idiots/jerks. They re NOT like that. They are smart, brave, caring but badass hunters, and the writers should do them, and us, the favor to remember it.

    Comment by Tammy — November 13, 2013 @ 10:03 pm

  92. The show set the bar high with Jess. Maybe it’s because she is dead but I have not seen anyone able to top that relationship. Even after she had been dead for five years it meant something when Sam saw her (or thought he did) and talked to her. Overall, one-offs are better like Sarah and Madison. Nothing long-term because I just can’t get invested in that. It’s a dead end and takes away from the story of Sam and Dean.

    When soulless Sam dissed Lisa and Ben I kind of had to agree :D It was cute to see Dean as a mentor / father figure but that’s about it. Although I’m glad it was written because now that kind of story is done for Dean. He had a perfect life that people would pay millions to get (a beautiful girlfriend, a kid that could become like your own, nice house, work, neighbours, barbecues) but he still left for Sam and for a bigger cause. Frankly, I find Dean’s strippers and hookers thing more interesting than a domesticated existence (or even his usual bar hookups) :D

    Comment by San — November 13, 2013 @ 11:04 pm

  93. @San

    “He had a perfect life that people would pay millions to get (a beautiful girlfriend, a kid that could become like your own, nice house, work, neighbours, barbecues)…”

    Honestly, that suburban nightmare sounds like actual Hell to me. No issue with the beautiful girlfriend part obviously, but I’ve already got that and she would hate that life as much as I would. Now living in a fitted-out bunker and driving around in a classic car hunting demons and monsters? That’s a life you can wish for, as far as I’m concerned. Although Dani, my better half, prefers hunting rock bands to demons! ;)

    Comment by Just Sayin' — November 14, 2013 @ 4:02 am

  94. @ San 92 I always thougt that Jess was the perfect girlfriend for Sam. Wish I could see her again with Sam. I didnt like Lisas character but I do think that Lisa was a big part of Deans life.

    Comment by LG — November 14, 2013 @ 5:10 am

  95. @Sheri – what do you mean by “Dean doesn’t go for the ladies anymore?” T

    ——-

    I agree w/those who saw Dean’s comments about Cas’s job as elitist. As I pointed out, the show went out of its way to slam honest, hard work. What was up w/that?

    The two times Sam has “left the life,” we’ve seen him as a barkeep/waiter and a maintenance man. In Dean’s dream world, he was a mechanic. And w/Lisa, he was working construction. I view all those jobs as blue collar and working class. It’s all good, honest work.

    Cas has ZERO skills and no resume. He took a job that was offered to him and got some pride in doing his job well. I think we were supposed to laugh and agree that Cas was “better than that,” but I found it very distasteful and not in the spirit of the show I’ve been watching for the past 8 years.

    If Dean had said something like, “Cas, you have a wealth of knowledge that other hunters can use. I know you like this job, but I think you should be hunting,” I wouldn’t have had an issue. If he tried to tell Cas that his hunter knowledge was being wasted in that job, that would have been fine but the show took it too far by implying the job wasn’t dignified.

    ———-

    I was hoping this episode would interest me in Cas’s life – separate and apart from the Winchesters but it didn’t. He’s basically just living life, which is not all that entertaining to me. I do hope he decides to do something more “supernatural” in nature b/c then I might get interested in his story.

    His human journey can’t be stretched out for multiple episodes, IMO.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 14, 2013 @ 5:10 am

  96. @ Lisa 1 I agree with you on the job comments. Any job is good if is honest.

    Comment by LG — November 14, 2013 @ 5:16 am

  97. @95- They wrote Dean as a dick in this episode. But I don’t think he was putting the job down per se, as much as saying that Cas has a bigger purpose than working in a convenience store.
    I was much more disappointed and upset with Dean for seemingly not having a shred of remorse for throwing Cas out in the cold to fend for himself, homeless, powerless and all. That’s NOT the Dean I know. The Dean that was beside himself with worry and guilt thinking he left Cas down and stuck in Purgatory.
    I never thought I’d miss Sera Gamble but man, she must be laughing at us all now for disparaging her. Jeremy Carver, I believe, is deliberately trying to destroy SPN. At first I thought he just didn’t like Dean/Jensen, but now I think it’s Eric Kripke that he has a beef with, because it sure as hell looks like he is trying his damnest to ruin Kripke’s creation.
    And I’m sad to reiterate but yes, it did look to me, in this whole episode and the latter half of the last one, that Jensen is just over this crap. I think he wanted to do really good acting work and give it his all, but it just looks to me like he’s more or less become resigned to the fact that Carver and Co. have destroyed this show and his character, so I just see him going through the motions. He certainly doesn’t have the spark he once had.

    Comment by roxi — November 14, 2013 @ 6:04 am

  98. You know what shows like Supernatural, X-Files, Smallville, Stargate and 24 all have in common? Long runs that ended with seasons that were seen as mediocre and second rate to the fans that had been there from the start. Not because they actually were mediocre but because they weren’t exactly what they used to be in the early seasons.

    You can’t go ten years without either changing the essence of the show (thereby risking pissing off the fans of the early stuff) or rehashing the same old stuff (ultimately pissing off everyone eventually).

    Supernatural, like X-Files and Stargate before it, is a victim of its own success. A decade on the air is a brilliant result but to do that it has had to evolve into something the older fans don’t like. However the fact that it’s getting the numbers it still is means that it must be doing something right, even if that something is new.

    I do think that some people simply prefer the Firefly effect. One season and cancelled so that you can go on and on about how perfect it was and blame the network for cancelling it. Wonder how many people would have been slating Firefly by now had it reached season ten?

    Makes me

    Comment by Just Sayin' — November 14, 2013 @ 7:49 am

  99. Ignore that last ‘Makes me”. The surviving words of a deleted paragraph! ;)

    Comment by Just Sayin' — November 14, 2013 @ 7:51 am

  100. Roxi – I agree that that was Dean’s intent but the way the scene played out was insulting. If Dean had made a statement like the one I wrote, it would have been fine, but the show purposely had Cas say he got dignity from the job and then immediately show his boss telling him to clean the mess in the bathroom. It was clear that they were saying Cas’s job was undignified! That was insulting to all the people out there who do that work. It was just an unnecessary jab!

    It reminded me of that awful, gratuitous scene in the S7 finale where that girl stripped down to her undies for NO FREAKING REASON!

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 14, 2013 @ 8:12 am

  101. Personally, roxi, I saw JA that gave a good performance of how guilt-ridden Dean is over his decision to have Cas leave the bunker.

    And I don’t know what the big row is about demeaning the job. That conversation was part of the overall showing of Dean feeling guilty for Cas’ situation.

    The reason Cas’ human story doesn’t move me, besides being boring as hell, is because the show is simply trying to build sympathy for a character that did really terrible things; mass murder among them, killing Bobby among them, and skimmed through it. At least the reason they are giving Cas for being okay with his situation is that he acknowledged that he ALWAYS screws things up.

    I also like this season better than any season since S4. There’s lots of questions, lots of ways the writers could take the story, and Sam’s story is all wrapped up in Dean’s story for a change.

    I don’t think any of the episodes have been particularly strong, but I think there is an interesting story slowly unfolding. That seems to be Carver’s way — to slowly work through things. I don’t know how it will work out in the end, but it’s being done well enough to keep me interested and wanting the show to get back to the mytharc.

    Comment by Sheri — November 14, 2013 @ 8:17 am

  102. Honestly Cas is just way too boring of a character. His angel abilities were the only interesting part. He is just way too dull to make a human story interesting. He has very little personality if at all. I don’t see why they thought making a whole episode of him learning to be human would be intriguing. The character on his own without his powers is not entertaining or interesting enough. It was dry and dull.

    I don’t think the writers coddle any character the way they do Cas even above the main stars. They either make Sam or Dean the bad guy and have no problem pointing out their flaws.

    Yet somehow Cas is the one we are supposed to pity when he’s done way worse things. He got no blame for the apocalypse, we were supposed to feel bad for him when he took on Lucifer and healed Sam’s wall when he’s the one who made Sam suffer in the first place, laugh at him calling Sam an “abomination” and now he’s broken heaven again but he’s this poor little lost now human angel who was kicked out by his meanie friend.

    All this episode proved to be is that the Cas show doesn’t work, the Dean and Cas show doesn’t work and that Cas is a supporting character for a reason and should stay that way. He shouldn’t have his own story he should support the story of the main characters.

    Comment by Sara — November 14, 2013 @ 9:45 am

  103. @Lisa1
    Also found that scene in S7 weird. It wasn’t as though she was dressed in sexy underwear or that the woman had a body ‘type’ at all. I put it down to the writers trying to demonstrate humanities vulnerability, but then they could have used a guy for that to the same effect. Strange.

    I Don’t feel too sorry for Cas this season as I think it is good that he gets a taste of humanity seeing what he did to Sam all those Seasons ago!

    Not enjoying what the writer did to Dean this week. There is sooo much division over Dean between the fans this season hoo boy I just don’t know what to make of this. Deans character has always been the guiding light of the show, the leader in the storm, but Carver seems to be fundamentally changing this, so who knows where this is going to end

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 14, 2013 @ 10:18 am

  104. I think Dean has been written poorly this season. To me, he’s starting to have shades of 2014!Dean, who I hated. His constant lying is really bothersome, especially to his own brother about such a serious matter. He needs to come clean to Sam and deal with the consequences. Because I can’t stand to watch Dean continue to lie to everyone, especially Sam. It’s just awful and it makes me uncomfortable. Dean made a choice regarding Sam. Now he has to come clean and deal with the consequences of his decision. Is it going to be hurtful and damaging? Absolutely. Dean knew this, hence why he’s hiding it from Sam. But lying to Sam constantly isn’t going to make anything better. It just puts Dean in an even worse spot.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 14, 2013 @ 11:38 am

  105. @93 Yeah, I should have written it “perfect” because even if his setting was apple pie life it wasn’t him. You could see he was miserable and not just because of Sam being gone. Like his neighbour seemed to be his best friend but not really and when he was at work there were flashbacks to his days of hunting.

    @94 Yeah there was nothing really “off” about Lisa but I just couldn’t get into it. I thought that having Lisa be the one was kind of random and thrown in there just so Dean could pine after a woman, a normal life and so that he would have a place to go after Sam.

    Cas seemed happy in the beginning at his job and why not. He had a lot of responsibility like taking care of inventory which is not a small thing when just recently he had to learn all the basics. Everything is still new and exciting so no bad attitude or preconceived notions about the job. In the end though it looked like he was going back to jail. I understand where Dean was coming from because Cas does have skills etc. beyond his powers so he doesn’t have to work there although Cas feels like the store is the best he can manage.

    I prefer Cas with angelic powers but if he has to stay human, which I expect to be the case for a long time, I hope he has some sort of mission soon besides trying to live life as a human. I think that the learning what it means to be a human angle was more interesting when he was still an angel and learning emotions etc. from Dean.

    I suspect Dean knows he is fucked but just doesn’t want to fully admit it to himself yet. Cas will probably call him out too so I could see some abandonment issues coming back full force. I think if Dean could at least give Sam a hint that he can’t come clean but is working on something and will tell as soon as he can, Sam would probably deal a little better. Although the more I think about what the Zeke situation implies (Dean basically deciding what happens with Sam’s life, what happens to Sam’s body and mind, wiping away memories etc.) the more twisted the whole thing feels.

    Comment by San — November 14, 2013 @ 12:14 pm

  106. As it stands right now, if Dan tells Sam and Sam ejects Zeke, Sam dies. I know Sam isn’t much of a character any more, but I really don’t want him off the show.

    What we’ll see is Sam finds out the big secret, understands why Zeke was invited in, and then get all pissy about the lies, and stomps off. Then we’ll have an episode or two of the brothers separated, Dean will beg for forgiveness, and they will get back together again.

    I would much prefer Dean say’s, “Yeah, I did it to save your life. Get over it or move on.”

    I would love that.

    Comment by Sheri — November 14, 2013 @ 12:42 pm

  107. @ San: What Dean did was extremely twisted. It’s one of the things that definitely hits a squick button for me. I understand why he did what he did, but at the same time, it’s all just so wrong. Sam had no agency and had no control or say over what happened to his own body. To me, that is a violation of free will. That bothers me a lot and it definitely knocked down a few points on Dean’s character.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 14, 2013 @ 12:46 pm

  108. @Sheri: It’s not that simple. Dean took away Sam’s choice and free will to do what he wants with his own body. It’s not about saving his life. To me, choice is everything. If you take away choice, what’s the point of living. Dean doesn’t have the right to choose what Sam should and shouldn’t do with his body. I know some people in real life who watch the show who are really angered by Dean and this decision and although I’m more sympathetic towards Dean than they are, I just can’t see what Dean did as a good thing. I just can’t.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 14, 2013 @ 12:49 pm

  109. Sam: Yeah, I went to Stanford. And slept with Ruby and drank demon blood to save lives. And let Lucifer out of the box. Get over it or move on.”

    Comment by very bored Sam fan — November 14, 2013 @ 12:57 pm

  110. The decision that Dean made and by taking away Sam’s choice makes Dean sort of a hypocrite. He says that he doesn’t want to live life as an angel condom (his own words) and is all about screw destiny and puts together Team Free Will, yet he takes away Sam’s free will and decision to choose what he wants to do with his own body. Don’t get me wrong, I like Dean, but he’s very hypocritical and that is definitely a trait about him that I can’t stand. Hypocrite should be Dean’s middle name.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 14, 2013 @ 1:06 pm

  111. @98- Sure a show has adaptations to make after a long time on the air. However, writing plotlines that make no sense, ignoring canon, and making characters do things you know full well they wouldn’t do is not about that. It’s about lousy writers.
    I was an X-FILES and LOST fan. I invested in those shows faithfully, rolling with the punches to get to the final conclusion and you know what? There was no satisfying conclusion to either of those shows. Plot lines that were made to seem like they meant something important ended up meaning nothing , loose ends abounded,and by the end, I just didn’t care anymore. The only thing I liked about the ending of LOST was Vincent the dog lying down beside a dying Jack. The rest of it made no sense.
    Supernatural is different in one big way; the story and bond of the Winchester brothers. Well the story is no longer making sense since they ignore past canon and seem to be more interested in stories for side characters like Cas and the angels, and the bond feels forced now because of the way Carver destroyed it in season 8 without showing us the boys actually working out their issues. I am determined to see it through to the end, but it’s no longer appointment tv for me. I could skip a couple of weeks and watch episodes later at this point.
    I too hate that Dean felt forced to violate Sam’s free will. And the way he acted towards Cas in this episode, I’m telling you, it really does seem like Carver wants to destroy Dean and turn fans against him, why I don’t know. This current Dean is no more the Dean I love than the Sam of season 8 was Sam. And Lisa, I’m not sure where you’re seeing all the Sam haters but me,all I’m seeing are Dean haters all over the place on a lot of sites and now they have ammunition galore.
    I don’t like that the fans were made to hate either of the boys. That’s the total opposite of what drew most of us to the show. I am really disappointed in the way Dean is currently being written as an uncompassionate, smug dick. Sam and Dean always had personality flaws, they are human and I would be bored with perfect heros, but they still were decent guys at their core. Carver turned Sam into a jerk last season and now Dean this season. Again, I almost have to believe he really has some kind of personal beef with Eric Kripke and is relishing the opportunity to ruin Kripke’s creation and characters. There’s just no other way for me to explain the very deliberate way he seems to be sabotaging this show.

    Comment by roxi — November 14, 2013 @ 1:15 pm

  112. @ Caitkin: Dean taking away Sam’s “choice,” or “free will” is only arguable if one believes Sam actually chose death. I don’t believe that is what Sam chose. I believe he was totally messed up, depressed, sick, and not thinking right, because THE MINUTE that Dean offered Sam hope, he jumped at that hope.

    Not to mention, as I have done before, that it was not Sam’s time on the cosmos calendar. Sam called Death to him, there was no reaper to hide from, and Death said it was Sam’s choice — he didn’t say Sam’s time was up.

    Believing that Sam actually chose to die ignores all of that and ignores the hope that each brother offers the other….and it ignores the fact that the show has gone to great lengths to give Dean cover for his decisions.

    I suspect that those who are so pissed off at Dean are those that gave justification to all of Sam’s past actions and serves as an excuse to now point a finger at Dean to justify Sam’s past behavior.

    Personally, I have had no use for Sam for years, and between the finale of S8 and this season, with Zeke healing Sam physical and mentally, I like Sam again. I’m NOT going to like him throwing his little hissy fit and stomping off like a petulant teenager again and I’m not going to like Dean profusely apologizing, so I hope the show doesn’t go down that repetitive road again.

    Comment by Sheri — November 14, 2013 @ 1:25 pm

  113. @109- I would say the difference there is that Sam didn’t do any of those things for Dean’s benefit, but for his own. However, I do agree that what Dean did was a violation of Sam’s free will.
    Carver and Singer got a lot of complaints last year about the way Sam was treating Dean and other Sam stuff, also the way many of us feel that Dean has been pushed to the sidelines. He was sick of hearing these complaints about his least favorite character, so he decided to give Dean more importance, but to get back at us Dean fans, he put Dean in a position to make fans hate him and turn against him. And kudos Carver you dick, it’s working. Half the fans, even hardcore Deanfans, have and are turning against him. And the ones who never liked him anyway now have plenty of ammunition to leverage at him. Dean is now currently a dick who not only violated his brother’s free will( even though I still insist he did it out of love for Sam) and is lying left and right, but then threw his best friend out in the street homeless and defenseless, and doesn’t seem to be showing a damn bit of remorse or bad feeling about it all while making smug comments about said friend’s current situation.
    Please CW, get Eric Kripke back, whatever you have to pay him.

    Comment by roxi — November 14, 2013 @ 1:28 pm

  114. On the other hand, those pissed off at Sam last season and wanting him to apologize for every mean thing he did to Dean are now the ones defending Dean and saying he doesn’t need to apologize at all.

    I don’t want Sam to just shrug it off like it was nothing.

    Comment by very bored Sam fan — November 14, 2013 @ 1:36 pm

  115. @112- Sheri, I agree that Dean did what he did out of love for Sam. I believe that he panicked, wasn’t thinking logically or rationally, and acted on impulse like he always does. It’s a personality flaw of his, his biggest one in my opinion. However, the end result is the same; he violated Sam’s free will. And the fans that already hated him are just pouncing on this as another reason to disparage him. It doesn’t help matters what he did to Cas and the smug way he treated Cas’s current situation and seemingly not caring that Cas is homeless and defenseless against these rogue angels. Carver and co. have destroyed Dean.

    Comment by roxi — November 14, 2013 @ 1:36 pm

  116. Sheri: I;m sorry to attack you, but you are beyond delusional. If and when Sam finds out about his secret, SAM’S ANGER WILL BE JUSTIFIED. How dare you try to make Sam the bad guy for having his own choice taken away from him. HE NEVER GAVE HIS CONSENT TO HAVE AN ANGEL POSSESS EVER. That is the lack of free will. DEAN KNOWS THAT SAM WOULD RATHER DIE THAN HAVE AN ANGEL POSSES HIM YET HE TOOK SAM’S CHOICE AWAY BY HAVING AN ANGEL POSSESS HIM! Are you stupid??? It sounds like you just want Sam to be Dean’s little prop and I’m sorry but it doesn’t work that way. SAM IS A HUMAN BEING and he has EVERY RIGHT TO BE ANGRY when he finds out what Dean did. EVERY SINGLE RIGHT. You’ve managed to hit a berserk button with me and I really don’t appreciate that.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 14, 2013 @ 1:38 pm

  117. @114- Apparently you’re not reading MY posts.
    NOBODY is giving Dean a free pass. Sam was a dick last year. Dean is a dick this year. I believe I’ve said that a bunch of times. And I’m not the only Dean fan, many from what I’ve read on other sites are just as pissed currently at Dean as they were with Sam last year.
    I don’t care if your’e a San fan or a Dean fan, NEITHER of them should get a free pass for every wrong thing they do. To some Sam fans, it seems he can do no wrong no matter what, and for some Dean fans it’s the same. But not for me, if Dean does something wrong, I will say it and not condone or excuse it. I do believe his choice with Sam this year wasn’t done because he’s a selfish, awful dick, all the history of Dean I’ve seen regarding his love and devotion of Sam tells me otherwise. However, wrong is wrong. Sam was looking forward to a peaceful death. I saw that clearly. And Dean. in his panic, took that choice away from him. I can’t and won’t deny that.

    Comment by roxi — November 14, 2013 @ 1:43 pm

  118. @Sheri #106. I understand where Dean was coming from because they just had that reunion of sorts at the church and the next thing he knows Sam is ready to die but at the same time the situation makes it seem that Dean’s need to keep Sam close can morph into something that’s a bit… off.

    Re: What we’ll see is Sam finds out the big secret, understands why Zeke was invited in, and then get all pissy about the lies, and stomps off. Then we’ll have an episode or two of the brothers separated, Dean will beg for forgiveness, and they will get back together again.

    Your characterization is harsh but not completely without basis :D There is somewhat of a pattern if Dean has done something bad or the brothers have been fighting: Dean being terrified that Sam will walk out for good and in a way begging to have him back. And Sam is pulled right in.

    But you know Dean would never say “Get over it or move on” ;) Especially not now that he feels guilty = he know he did something wrong.

    #112. I just can’t see Sam getting angry as “him throwing his little hissy fit and stomping off like a petulant teenager”. This is major on any scale and especially because the brothers just talked about trust and Sam has pretty much always been able to count on Dean and felt like he himself was the one who let them down.

    @Caitlin #107. Yeah the free will thing… Dean was so big on that in season 5. Although in season 6 he hated not having the real Sam so he went ahead and arranged Sam’s soul to be put back in even though there were no guarantees (Sam could have become trapped inside his body etc.) so I guess in some ways this is a continuation of that.

    Comment by San — November 14, 2013 @ 2:01 pm

  119. @San: Well then, Dean is a hypocrite in regards to Sam, isn’t he? He screams “What’s dead should stay dead” in season two, but at the end of season two when Sam dies unexpectedly “Oh no, not Sammy! He must live more than anyone else because I CAN’T LIVE WITHOUT HIM!” Everybody but Sam can stay dead. “I don’t want to be an angel condom for any angel” says Dean in season five. “Oh no, Sam s dying. Let’s have an angel possess Sam without his actual true consent even when I KNOW that Sam would rather die than have an angel possess him.” DEAN IS A HYPOCRITE. In regards to Sam. And I don’t like it. Even if I do watch for and love the brothers bond. Even as someone who is highly sympathetic towards Sam and wants him to find happiness (even though I know that is near impossible and will never happen), what gives Dean the right to play God with Sam’s life under ANY circumstances?

    Comment by Caitlin — November 14, 2013 @ 2:08 pm

  120. @ #114: A lot of “Dean” fans didn’t necessary want Sam to apologize to Dean, but to accept accountability and responsibility for his actions. He did that in the finale.

    @ #115: If you believe that Dean violated Sam’s free will, then so does every policeman, friend, or family that tries to save a suicidal person. Sam was manically depressed, not thinking right, and doing exactly what Sam always does — running away.

    And how can you violate the free will of a person whose choice it is to agree or not agree to something. Sam made the choice IN HIS OWN HEAD. He was, in fact, so messed up that the smart Sam we know didn’t question or ask any questions. He just jumped at the hope that Dean offered.

    @ #116: No, I actually am not stupid, but you are sounding like you may have some personal or emotional issues that need put in check. Cap locks? Really?? Sam is NOT a “human being.” Sam is a fictional character in a fictional story being told, and I am pointing out story narrative and saying that those fans that are so pissed off at Dean are overlooking some very important points that have been brought up. You, however, are resorting to emotional name-calling to justify your viewpoint. And you know what? I don’t care how you feel about Dean. He isn’t going to go anywhere because of how you or anybody else feels about him.

    # 117: I am well aware of all your posts, roxi. I agree, all characters in the story should be held accountable **cough**Cas**, and I do agree with you that Carver is rehabilitating Sam by dirting Dean up…but it may be that Dean is all wrapped up in the angel story this season and this is all leading there. Yeah, I know, fat chance, but one can hope after so many years of waiting for Dean to have a story.

    Comment by Sheri — November 14, 2013 @ 2:18 pm

  121. @116- Ok caitlin, let me just ask you this: Do you also believe that Dean had every right to be pissed and hurt last season that Sam just stopped giving a damn about him and didn’t even bother to try to figure out what happened to him? Because the show certainly didn’t. They painted Dean as being unreasonable for daring to be hurt by something he had every right to be hurt about.

    Comment by roxi — November 14, 2013 @ 3:12 pm

  122. @120- Sheri, I don’t think Dean will have a damned thing to do with the angel story, for one thing, because there really isn’t much of a story there now that we know that the spell can’t be reversed and second, because when, in the history of SPN, have they EVER given Dean any story that wasn’t in the end all about supporting Sam?

    Comment by roxi — November 14, 2013 @ 3:16 pm

  123. I don’t know. Dean’s actions in the premiere just don’t bother me. I felt the show did a great job of explaining Dean’s reasons for making the decision he did and giving us his perspective. Dean loves Sam and did what it took to save him. I can’t say I’m at all troubled by what he did.

    Was it right? Maybe not. Is he a hypocrite? Sure but who isn’t?

    I not seeing much Dean hate, but I guess that’s because of the places I frequent. Some are upset that he’s lying to Sam, but I haven’t seen much, if any, outright hate. That is rare. I don’t understand how anyone could hate Dean for this, esp knowing he did this out of love for his brother.

    Will Sam be upset? Sure. That is expected, and Sam will be within his rights to be upset with Dean. An entity is possessing his body and could very well “take over.” if Zeke wanted to stay, he could stay, and there’s not much Sam could do about it. I also wonder if Sam will be more upset because he wanted to die. That’s the feeling I got from Sam in the premiere and Carver confirmed that in a later interview. Sam seems pretty tired of his life at this point. Maybe he’ll be more upset at living than anything else. Who knows? I do think he is entitled to his feelings.

    Roxi, all the Sam hate I see is on the IMDb boards. Most of the posters hate Sam with a passion and wouldn’t care if he died. They advocate for the Dean/Cas, Dean/Benny or “Dean and anyone but Sam” show. They also routinely bash Jared. It’s not pretty over there for anyone who likes Jared and Sam. That has been my experience with that site.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 14, 2013 @ 3:24 pm

  124. And I don’t necessarily think they’re dirtying up Dean to rehabilitate Sam, but because they simply don’t like the character or his fans, don’t think he matters even a fraction as much as Sam or even Cas, and they were irritated by Dean fans and our (legitimate) complaints last year, so decided to simultaneously try to shut us up by telling us Dean would finally play a major role this season, but the caveat is that that role is one where he violates his brother’s free will, treats his best friend like garbage, and spins one lie after another. I think the whole thing is their way of dealing with a character they don’t like but are stuck with.
    Think about it:even when Sam chose a demon over his own brother, even when he unwittingly let Lucifer free, he was able to more than acquit himself for all that by jumping into the cage. But what Dean has done, no matter what reasons he had for it, he can NEVER undo. It can’t ever be undone, never be unseen. The fact that he violated Sam’s free will and choice will ALWAYS be with them, a permanent mark on their lives and their relationship. And yes, I believe that Caver set out with deliberate malice towards the character to destroy him in this way.

    Comment by roxi — November 14, 2013 @ 3:29 pm

  125. @123-

    Comment by roxi — November 14, 2013 @ 3:31 pm

  126. @Roxi: Yes, Dean did have a right to be upset with Sam. I hated the way Sam was written last season. I wish season eight never existed. This has nothing to do with what happened last season. I’m talking about THIS SEASON. TWO WRONGS DO NOT MAKE A RIGHT. This season, Dean violated Sam by getting an angel to possess Sam without his consent! Dean knew he would not want to be possessed by angel, yet Dean still did what he did. IT WAS WRONG. How can anyone thing this is not wrong? Would you like it if someone got something that you don’t know of to possess you or overtake your body or control your body without your actual consent or without your knowledge? Would you like it? My guess is NO. People within this fandom as well as the writers treat Sam like he’s a broken toy to constantly be fixed and I’M SICK OF IT.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 14, 2013 @ 3:38 pm

  127. @123-At some sites I’m sure that they think I hate Sam merely because I have stated, with passion, my feeling that Dean has never gotten a fraction of the storylines and focus that to me Sam has always gotten. If you read some of those you may see those posts and maybe they can be misconstrued that way.
    But I do NOT hate Sam. In fact, I love him. I hated the way he treated Dean last season, but that’s not the same as hating the character.
    I have seen posts where they wish Dean would go off with Cas and SPN be completely about Sam, so it goes both ways.
    How can you have SPN without BOTH Sam and Dean? I don’t understand this logic.All I’ve ever wanted was Dean to be treated equally with Sam. I NEVER wanted Sam gone! SPN is about, well supposed to be about anyway, the story of the Winchester brothers, their common shared life experience that only they can understand, and their unusually close and unbreakable bond. Even Sera Gamble understood this. Carver has a long history with SPN, indeed, writing some of their very best episodes. There’s no way his stupid decisions are due to not having much experience with the show or it’s characters. So clearly, he has an agenda to totally reconstruct and, in my opinion, ruin SPN and everything it’s about. I can only surmise there’s some bad blood between him and Eric Kripke, for him to be destroying SPN this badly.

    Comment by roxi — November 14, 2013 @ 3:41 pm

  128. @126- Umm, ok caitlin, HAVE YOU BEEN READING MY POSTS?
    I HAVE stated, REPEATEDLY, how I believe what Dean did WAS WRONG! Where have you been? I am NOT condoning it!
    I simply asked you my question because Sheri did have a point: I have seen many of the same fans who are currently crucifying Dean have ZERO issues with how Sam treated Dean last year. So I wanted to know where you stood on that.
    I don’t know how many more times I can say it: What Dean did, no matter how much I believe he did it out of love, was WRONG. It WAS A VIOLATION of Sam’s free will. I NEVER disputed that! What I dispute is this idea that Dean did it because he’s this horrible, selfish bastard, as so many Dean haters are contending. But please don’t portend like I don’t have a problem with it, when I have made post after post here stating how much I think it was WRONG, and how much I hate what Carver is making Dean do and act like.

    Comment by roxi — November 14, 2013 @ 3:49 pm

  129. @roxi
    That’s nothing new. Welcome to the Sam vs Dean debate. Every Sam fan defends Sam and criticizes Dean and every Dean fan defends Dean and criticizes Sam. It’s really a very tiring argument. It’s not shocking when people stand up for their favorites. I get so sick of it because most of the time the characters have a right to be upset with each other and your favorite is not always a saint. It’s part of being human. Honestly I don’t know what to say to those who think Sam being upset about learning the truth is him throwing a hissy fit. That’s a disturbing perspective given the circumstances.

    Comment by Sara — November 14, 2013 @ 5:17 pm

  130. Amen, Sara, to all points.

    Comment by inky — November 14, 2013 @ 6:39 pm

  131. Well, I think I’m the exception Sara. I DON’T defend Dean if I feel he is wrong, and he’s been wrong MANY times.

    Comment by roxi — November 14, 2013 @ 7:09 pm

  132. I think Sara got it right. Some fans will think Dean is a saint; others will think Sam is a saint. That is the way of fandom.

    I happen to think both brothers will make mistakes b/c they are human. They are both good, kind, caring people. They can be selfless at times and selfish at others. They can be mean. They can be nice. I like both characters. I honestly have no favorite. As I’ve said numerous times, I complain more about Sam b/c I have more complaints about the writing for him than I do w/Dean.

    I’ve never had a problem acknowledging when I felt one brother did something wrong. I was very upset w/Sam for much of S4. In S8, he was being written too OOC for me to be upset w/”him.” Dean’s attitude in DSOTM and his trashing of the amulet bothered me back in S5. Dean’s attitude in that psychic episode in S7 also bothered me. So, I have no trouble saying when I feel one brother has done wrong or wronged the other.

    That said, I’m not having an issue w/either brother this year. What Dean has does just doesn’t trouble me. I don’t think he’s evil or selfish or anything. As I’ve said, I thought the show did a great job (much better than they did w/Sam in S8) of showing us what motivated Dean and why Dean made the choice he did.

    Presently, I’m more troubled by the show’s lack of an overarching plot and these weaker, filler episodes. The last three episodes have been filler episodes. I’m ready to get the season started.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 14, 2013 @ 8:17 pm

  133. I’m with you, Lisa1. There’s something about angels and something about Abaddon and Crowley vying to be the King of Hell. Both JA and Carver said they were going to throw up a lot of things and see what sticks. I ready to see what they think stuck.

    I, too, am happy with both brother this season. Wow, what a change for me from the last five years.

    I am glad that the show has moved on from SG’s wet dreams and the Vampire Diaries take of last year and back to horror drama (except, of course, for Thompson and his Charlie worship Disney episode). Dean’s decisions were dark and if the writers stay true to the show, the consequences will be dark. I hope that happens and I’m ready to go there.

    And, God, I hope we are done with watching much of Cas’ bumbling human episodes.

    Comment by Sheri — November 14, 2013 @ 10:08 pm

  134. It was really sad that the spell is irreversible. Then how boys are gonna fix this angel mess? And why crowly was injecting Cevin blood?

    Comment by serenity — November 14, 2013 @ 11:59 pm

  135. Sorry haven’t watched the ep yet. Can someone fill me in on whose blood it actually was and why there is an issue with it.

    Also I find it interesting about the furore the amulet is creating. If I remember correctly, the amulet was explained in AVSC (but Dean wore it from the get go?) and was ditched in TDSOTM. What I find fascinating is the story behind this regarding the writers use of props in episodes. How did this happen? Did the writers in AVSC suddenly decide to make use of the amulet which didn’t have significance before, or was this always going to be the case (decided by Kripke right at the beginning of the series). If so, why don’t they still do this. It gives deeper meaning to the story and makes the preceding episodes more valuable as fans go back to watch earlier episodes. Also they always used to include interesting little titbits for the fans to look out for like the clock and the meaning of hotel room numbers and rock stars names etc. why don’t they still do this?

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 15, 2013 @ 1:09 am

  136. I’m not upset at Dean because it’s _Dean_ (meaning he would never be malicious and deliberately hurt his brother like that) but that’s precisely the reason why I have to really look into his decision and then it all comes across as bad, bad.

    I imagine that Sam will feel awful since his brother let a strange being take ahold of him. Sam and Dean are closer than close but they are not as screwed up as to let the other one take complete control over what they do with their own life. It’s doubly bad because they just reaffirmed their mutual trust. It’s like Sam had the rug pulled out from under him.

    Sam put a lot of implicit trust in Dean (not outright asking what Dean meant) which of course allowed Zeke to step right in. I’m not sure how they can go about fixing that breaking of trust. I agree that Dean will have a hard time explaining because it wasn’t for a bigger cause and Sam was ready to move on.

    Zeke is gonna take Sam out for a ride. This whole thing might be Carver’s set up to force Dean to “mature”.

    Comment by San — November 15, 2013 @ 4:38 am

  137. Sheri – I think the main problem with Cas is this human story. It’s just not interesting. Cas has spent time as a “human” before. Granted, he didn’t know he was human, but he got a job as a healer, met a woman and married her. Why doesn’t he remember that experience? So, now, he has to eat, sleep, urinate, etc. Okay. I get it’s an adjustment; I just think it should be quicker. Didn’t he have to sleep in S5?

    I also can’t help feeling that any other angel in Cas’s shoes would be adjusting better. I can’t imagine Gsnriel, Uriel, Balthazar, or Zachariah having as many issues like not understanding toothpaste. Cas works better, IMO, when he is serious!

    ———

    Tokoloshi – I wasn’t participating in the online fandom at the time the episode aired so I’m not sure if Kripke always intended the amulet to have a deeper meaning or if he just wrote that for that episode. It is my understanding that fans asked about it a lot so maybe Kriple decided to do something with it.

    I loved that episode. I had never paid attention to Dean’s jewelry but when they showed us little Sam giving it to him, I remembered Dean pulling something from the shapeshifter in S2. After the episode, I ran to my DVDs to investigate and then noticed that Dean always wore that ugly necklace. That made AVSC that more special for me!

    So imagine my anger at Dean for trashing it! It was like he was trashing their relationship. And he did it right in fron’t of Sam to make Sam feel bad because he dared to have happy memories without Dean as if Dean has NO happy memories without Sam! Please! That whole episode bugged me immensely!

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 15, 2013 @ 7:32 am

  138. Oops that should be S1. Dean took the amulet from the shifter in “Skin” in S1. At the time, I didn’t give that much thought. It became significant to me after AVSC. I also loved the idea of Sam wearing it while Dean was in Hell and returning it to him. That was a great brother moment.

    I always thought Sam retrieved it from the trash, and that Dean would find it amongst Sam’s belongings in S6 or at the very end of S5 but that didn’t happen. It’s been trashed for FOUR years now; I’m over it at this point!

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 15, 2013 @ 7:39 am

  139. @Lisa1. What bothered you about Dean’s attitude in s7 The Mentalists? Was it the “quit being a bitch!” speech? I thought that episode showed pretty well how the dynamic often goes. Sam is mad and takes off for awhile, Dean can’t stop fretting over it, Dean is the one who first wants them back together, tries to make light of the situation, Sam makes him work for it, they argue, Sam comes back.

    The amulet thing bothers me, too, in Dark Side of the Moon. I loved how reassuring the amulet was. Even when they had big fights Dean kept it on. I didn’t think things were _that_ bad in the episode. I think the idea was Jensen’s and wasn’t really something that came organically from the character.

    But man I loved that episode. Funny how tastes differ. I thought It had one of the most effective starts. The sound of a shotgun getting loaded. How Sam looks lying dead on the bed and most of all how Dean looks over at Sam. How he doesn’t even care to fight to live after Sam is dead. Then we hear Stairway to Heaven, see that Dean’s heaven is with Sam, the way he looks at Sammy like he is in awe. It brings a tear to my eye every time! :D Then we get more insight into their past like how Flagstaff was one of the worst nights of Dean’s life while it’s heaven to Sam, Dean’s wince when he mentions John coming home that night… The blows just kept on coming in that episode.

    Comment by San — November 15, 2013 @ 8:15 am

  140. @137- Lisa, where do you get that Dean threw away the amulet to hurt Sam? To me, it seemed clear that he threw it away because it represented faith,and he just lost his, as did Cas. I too, thought it was a wrong move, but it didn’t look Dean throwing it away had anything to do with Sam.

    Comment by roxi — November 15, 2013 @ 9:57 am

  141. San– I liked Dark Side of the Moon also. It reinforced the underlying premise of the series that brothers could grow up and see and experience the world in such a totally different way. Both men had admirable qualities: venturesomeness, independence, self-reliance on Sam’s part and family,interdependence, and commitment on Dean’s part. Unfortunately, those qualities may be admirable but they are often in conflict–as are Dean and Sam. The series was entertainment but it had a serious underlay. That was before the Hallmark Channel plots of lets tune in to cry over and feel sorry for our favorite victimized character like this episode took center stage.

    Comment by CaseyT — November 15, 2013 @ 10:07 am

  142. @CaseyT: Absolutely. The fact that they care about each other means so much but what keeps it going is how they are still very different with different needs and ways to go about things. There is a real push and pull. And yet a bond that even the bad guys see and it gets tested all the time but has not been broken.

    @roxi: I think there was a side to Dean that was punishing Sam in that moment. Dean got real disillusioned in heaven. “It’s supposed to be you and me against the world, right?” and he questions Sam’s reassurance. Near the end of the episode, Sam goes: “We’ll find it. You and me, we’ll find it” and after that Dean throws the amulet in the trash.

    Comment by San — November 15, 2013 @ 11:55 am

  143. I have to agree with Sheri’s assessment. To me, Dean didn’t really do anything except give Zeke the chance to talk Sam into allowing him in. We still aren’t sure whether it was Zeke or Dean in Sam’s head (I’m guessing Zeke pretending to be Dean since it would be hard to transport Dean physically into Sam’s head considering his weakened state) so how exactly did Dean really DO anything? Sam jumped at the hope ‘Dean’ offered — so he really didn’t want to go with Death. Sam chose that hope, not Dean. Dean didn’t do anything since Sam chose to go with his ‘brother’s’ plan — unheard — of his own free will. I just don’t understand the big problem with it. Dean lying about Zeke now is getting old, bu it was alos understandable because he had some insight that Sam was talking to Death and considering going with him, so yes, Dean’s afraid Sam will just give up. He’s lying for Sam’s own good. Probably not a good idea, but understandable. I, too will be disappointed if Sam gets angry for Dean saving his life (considering Sam did nothing while Dean was in Purgatory!) but I’m afraid that’s what will happen because, let’s face it, these writers are nothing if not predictable.

    I can’t comment on this weeks episode because it is the first SPN episode ever that I voluntarily skipped. I could care less about Cas’ “Being Human’ storyline. I’m of the contingent that misses the ‘old’ SPN where the boys were smart, capable hunters, the monsters were scary and the show was creepy and fun. Now they’ve written themselves so far into a hole, they may never be able to dig themselves out of the contrived angst.

    Comment by SueP — November 15, 2013 @ 12:10 pm

  144. Thank You SueP-I agree with you and some of the others mainly Sheri that doesn’t see anything wrong with what Dean did in the season opener.

    Dean Loves Same -We have seen and heard Dean say that he would do ANYTHING to save Sam. Fans need to see the WHOLE picture instead of just a select set of lines or scenes. Dean only gave Zeke his PERMISSION to TRY and get Sam to say yes to save Sams life. Dean didn’t make Sam say yes-Sam of his own free will said yes once he knew there was a plan. Sam should have asked what that plan was but he didn’t so he went in blind so to speak. It is on Sam that he didn’t get the specifics, Not Dean. I understand totally why Dean did what he did. I have no problem with him having Zeke possess Sam to save Sam and Zekes lives. I do however hate that Dean is lying now.

    I understood the lying at first but when Sam asked who Zeke was -Dean should have said “Sam I need to talk to you and understand me when I say what I have to say”. I think Sam won’t be angry about Zeke but the lying. And yes it does look like Sam runs away like always.

    Can I just say too-that I am p’o'd that Carver and Singer never let us viewers in on what Dean said to Cas about leaving the bunker. Why? Probably because Carver and Singer are pulling the fans chains. They like for everyone to get all hot and bothered about things that should be explained in a normal story setting but they don’t so that we all post about it griping ect. I want to believe that Dean did explain it all -maybe not in the bunker because Sam was there but in this last episode off screen-or before Dean said he was sorry to Cas in the Impala for telling him to leave the bunker. Cas knows Zeke was helping Dean with Sam. So why wouldn’t he tell Cas. CAs was the one that said Zeke was a good angel. Cas could still be po’d for being told to leave the bunker and maybe be against the angel possession and it would have gotten us to the same place. Honestly I think these writers write just to get fans in an uproar.

    Comment by animal — November 15, 2013 @ 12:34 pm

  145. DSotM remains at the top of my list for dramatic SPN episodes. Again, Lisa1, trashing the amulet was because of Dean’s loss of faith. That’s what the scene with Jacob was all about.

    It appears to me that Cas’ story is to examine the meaning of life — I guess? It may be a parallel story to Dean not letting Sam die, in that Dean gave his blessing to Cas to go seek out a normal life, but he always had trouble doing that with Sam — I guess?

    Personally, I think Dean has clearly shown several times that he is able to hunt and live alone, but he prefers that Sam be with him. Dean always wants to keep family close, so him granting his blessings to his brother, Cas, (God, I nearly puke every time I think of Cas as a Winchester) to go live a normal life — I think –will mean something when Sam find out the big, terrible secret.

    Or maybe it is a parallel story to Crowley’s ‘human feels’ story?

    Yes, Cas as Emmanuel, even though still an angel, did all the things human’s do, including sex with a wife, should be well aware of humans feels. He definitely is a retarded angel.

    I just wished the writers would pick a story and tell the damned thing, and that story should be about the Winchesters — not Cas, not Crowley, not Charlie, not Kevin. They are support characters to the Winchesters, and I don’t want to see any more episodes of Dean playing support character to Cas and Sam playing support character to Crowley.

    Comment by Sheri — November 15, 2013 @ 12:47 pm

  146. I liked DSOTM but I think Sam gets a bad rap sometimes because his memories that were shown don’t include Dean. I understand Dean being hurt but as Sam said, he wasn’t in control of them. And Sam was a kid (kids can be pretty clueless about how what they are doing is affecting someone else) who was chafing at the life he was forced to live and the overprotective father who didn’t understand him. I can see where being part of a regular family holiday and having a sense of independence would be stand out memories for him. And he obviously did have good memories with Dean going by the joyful boy we saw in the July 4 flashback.

    Then as an 18 year old kid, he was basically kicked out of the family for wanting to follow his dreams. He gets grief for not contacting his family during that time but who can blame him for thinking that they didn’t want him anymore–”don’t you ever come back” is pretty strong stuff. It’s a no-brainer that he would view family differently than Dean whose memories cause him to hang onto family for all he’s worth and not understand why Sam doesn’t feel the same way.

    Comment by inky — November 15, 2013 @ 1:12 pm

  147. San – You’re right. Dean’s comment that Sam needed to quit feeling bad about Dean’s lie bothered me. Everyone is entitled to his/her feelings and can feel as mad about something as long as they want. It’s not like Sam was in Dean’s face, forcing him to deal with Sam’s bad attitude. Sam left because he didn’t want to be around Dean. Sam had every right to leave. Dean can’t just demand that Sam stop being mad on Dean’s timetable.

    Now, if they had been traveling together, and Dean told Sam he had to get over what Dean did or Dean would leave, that would be different. I would have had no problem with that. But Sam was minding his own business. They decided to work one case together. Sam was still upset. That’s why Sam left in the first place. He knew he was upset and didn’t want to be around Dean. Dean had no right, IMO, to tell Sam to “get over it.”

    I hated the meaning behind DSOTM. It seemed the show was saying Sam was “wrong” to have happy memories without his family. To me, that is normal. There is nothing wrong with Sam having happy memories without his family. Am I supposed to believe Dean has NO happy memories that don’t involve Sam?!?!? Come on! Of course, he does! Who doesn’t?

    They also had Sam apologizing for going to college! There was nothing wrong with Sam going to school. If Sam had apologized for shutting out Dean those last two years of school, that would be one thing but he apologized for going period! That’s crazy. Sam just did what most 18-yr olds do; he went to college! Why did Dean believe Sam had to hunt just because they did? Sam had a right to pursue other things in life, and not be made to feel guilty about it!

    Plus, it was the further trashing of Sam by making it seem like Sam hates “family” and is an awful brother. That was the theme of S5: “Sam sucks!” I didn’t buy it. I found the episode overly manipulative and annoying.

    ———

    Roxi – I just thought it was messed up that Dean held the amulet above the trash can for a minute before dropping it and declaring that it no longer served any purpose. Before it was a tool to find God, it was a gift given to you by your brother, Dean. It had meaning beyond what Cas wanted it for, and Dean should have remembered that!

    What can I say? Dean ticked me off in DSOTM. I can say I was just as ticked with Dean as I was with Sam in S&V in S4.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 15, 2013 @ 1:32 pm

  148. Sam and Dean just have different views on family. But that is because Sam never had what Dean. Sam never had a solid or normal family foundation. Sam never had a mother. Dean had a mother for four years, Sam NEVER had one period. He and John never got along and they constantly clashed. Sam wanted to follow his heart and do what he wanted by going to school and accomplishing his goals. But John resented Sam for that and basically kicked him out and disowned him. What kind of father does that to a child? Int his case, SAM WAS THE VICTIM. He was just a kid wanting to be happy and follow his own path, yet he got disowned for it. If anyone is the true victim of the Winchester family, IT’S SAM.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 15, 2013 @ 1:34 pm

  149. In regards to family, I relate the most to Sam. Like Sam, who is the youngest and has an older brother, I’m the youngest and I have an older sister. Like Sam, I was rebellious. I wasn’t always the model daughter and I didn’t always do what mom and dad said. Let’s just say it caused quite a bit of conflict in the household. I was the rebel. The wayward daughter. I didn’t always follow the rules. My older sister is the opposite. Like Dean, she is a people pleaser. Or rather a parent pleaser. She always did what mom and dad told her to do and to be honest, I thought she was weak. I had guts. I did what I wanted and I have no regrets. I left home when I was 18 like Sam and started my own life away from my family. My sister is all about family and bringing them together as much as possible and i used to pretty much laugh at her considering our family was pretty dysfunctional. My sister resented me from leaving home as soon as I could. But I don’t regret it. Me and my sister used to be really close when we were younger, but eventually, we just clashed. We had different personalities, different outlooks, different goals. I haven’t spoken to my sister in over a year. Do I love my sister? Yes, I do. But I have my own life and my sister resented me for it and said that I walked out on my family. And she STILL resents me for it. All because I was independent. All because I wanted to follow my own path. All because I wasn’t a parent pleaser and didn’t do exactly what mom and dad told me to do like she always did. And what did my sister get out of it? Out of being so devoted to family and being such an obedient daughter? She got nothing. My sister is miserable. Probably because she was the biggest parent pleaser ever. I think this is why I strongly relate to Sam the way I do and why I sympathize with him the most out of any character on the show. Because his life experience is so similar to mine. Sam just has different outlook on family than Dean does, the same way me and my older sister have different outlooks on family. That doesn’t make Sam a bad person, it just makes him different, it makes him human. And I really can’t fault Sam for wanting to follow his own path and be independent. Because I did the same thing and I’ve never been happier.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 15, 2013 @ 1:47 pm

  150. @ SueP #145: Julian Richings (either Chicago Con or Toronto Con, I can’t remember which) said that Death was HeadSam Death, and JA said that it was, in fact, Zeke that appeared to Sam using Dean’s image. Technically speaking, then, it was not Dean that tricked Sam at all, but Zeke.

    I don’t think that’s part of the story, though. It is Dean’s decision to allow possession and then keeping that possession from Sam that is the brothers’ story.

    @ inky #148. I’m sorry, but I just can’t buy that at 24 or 26, Sam had not one stand-out memory of Dean as he was growing up.

    Sam was told to leave the family by John, not Dean, but Sam lumped Dean into the ‘no contact’ category, right along with Dean, because he thought Dean was nothing more than ‘Dad’s little soldier,’ with no mind of his own. That was shown season after season. Sam may not have had control of his memories, but Heaven is the place where his fondest memories were relived (just like Pamela’s was).

    That given, Sam’s memories and mind-set made up part of Dean’s loss of total faith that was shown in DSotM and the lesson Dean had to learn in the entire 5-year arc was to lay on the ground and ‘love Sam unconditionally, blood sucking and all,’ according to EK’s himself.

    That is why some of us Dean fans were so upset and why, IMO, masses of Dean fans left in S6 when he became apparent that Dean had no role in SG’s SPNverse. Personally, although I am…at the moment…happy with where both brothers are in this season, I am still waiting for a Dean story. Following this latest episode, I see a lot of red flags waving that Dean is being taken back to the same old emoting, hand-wringing Dean that he’s become in the last four years and that he will only play a support character to Cas, Crowley, the angels, and maybe even Sam again this year.

    And, honestly, I am not seeing much of a Winchester story unfolding so far; something particular to them being involved in the angel and demon wars. I hope that changes. We know it won’t until after the winter break, because Sam begins to suspect something in 9.09 and takes off in 9.10, but I hope after that we somehow see something more than a kiss-and-make-up story.

    Comment by Sheri — November 15, 2013 @ 2:06 pm

  151. @145 Yeah, Dean hasn’t really been that good at giving a blessing to Sam to have a normal life. In the earlier episodes it was obviously different but I think Sam and Dean’s lives are now so wrapped around each other that at this point there is no going back. And who can blame them since destiny and everything else seems to point out that they can’t really part ways.

    @Lisa1: I think that is a fair assessment of the situation between Sam and Dean in The Mentalists. Sam agreed to work on the case only but Dean got riled up because Sam was giving him the cold shoulder otherwise (not laughing at his jokes etc.).

    It’s tough that they didn’t show Sam’s memories including Dean but they did seem to share a heaven all the same (soulmates?) so it was mostly Dean’s insecurities coming to the surface. Although Sam’s line “I just don’t look at family the way you do” has always bothered me a little. Maybe it’s the context. It came across a little bit like how Dean feels is one-sided.

    I, too, understand why leaving would have been a happy memory for Sam because he had been planning it for a long time and he was happy at Standford so it was a right decision at the time.
    Independence, an end to all the fighting. There was a lot of tension between Sam and Dean in the earlier episodes and it had probably been worse before. I mean in a way Dean had to have picked dad’s side.

    Comment by San — November 15, 2013 @ 2:19 pm

  152. Sheri – my problem with DSOTM was the idea that the few memories we saw comprised the totality of Heaven for both Sam and Dean. Come on! I can’t believe those three weak memories is ALL of Sam’s Heaven?!?!?

    Because I could never fully buy into that idea, the episode failed for me on all levels.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 15, 2013 @ 2:29 pm

  153. Sheri, my point was that of course Sam had happy memories. Sam remebers burning down the forest on the 4th of July. It was obvious that he was having a great time with his big bro. See also farting donkey and Dean reading to little Sammy and Sam looking up to Dean since he was four years old.

    There was only time for three of Sam’s memories and two of Deans while they were running from Zach. Again, as Sam said they weren’t picking them. Dean was upset that happy memories for Sam were painful ones for Dean. “How dare you be happy you left home and got away from dad; what about me?” “How dare you think that our Thanksgiving wasn’t good enough” “How dare you be happy that you ran away from home when I got in trouble for it.” What about me?

    Dean’s memory of Mary wasn’t exactly easy for Sam to watch either. He doesn’t remember his mom fussing over him. Should Dean be blamed for remembering this since it hurt Sam? Um, no.

    Maybe Sam didn’t consider that Dean would get in trouble for him running off because he thought John would blame Sam not Dean and because he was a kid whose brain wasn’t done yet. Child=impulsive and thoughtless. And how screwed up is it for you to get in trouble for what your sibling does? In Winchester world it’s normal. Dean did thoughtless stuff too. Leaving Sam at Plucky’s to pick up girls for one.

    I am not going to blame the 18 year old for not making the first step to call the family. He was told not to come back. In his mind, Dean is dad’s good soldier, so why wouldn’t he think that Dean would back dad? Again, 18 years old, brain not done yet. Instead of blaming Sam for leaving, why didn’t the older Dean say, I’ll come with you and hunt from the west coast? Why didn’t Dean pick up the phone and be the example? Why is it just Sam’s fault? Whatever abandonment issues Dean has now are Dean’s.

    Yes, Dean is screwed up from his childhood, but so is Sam.

    Comment by inky — November 15, 2013 @ 3:11 pm

  154. I agree with a lot of what you are saying inky! Although the show stated that Dean did call Sam but Sam didn’t pick up (episode Bugs).

    Comment by San — November 15, 2013 @ 3:31 pm

  155. SAM Dean, you know what most dads are when their kids score a full ride? Proud. Most dads don’t toss their kids out of the house.

    DEAN I remember that fight. In fact, I seem to recall a few choice phrases comin’ out of your mouth.

    SAM You know, truth is, when we finally do find Dad… I don’t know if he’s even gonna wanna see me.

    DEAN Sam, Dad was never disappointed in you. Never. He was scared.

    SAM What are you talkin’ about?

    DEAN He was afraid of what could’ve happened to you if he wasn’t around. But even when you two weren’t talkin’… he used to swing by Stanford whenever he could. (SAM’S smirk fades.) Keep an eye on you. Make sure you were safe.

    SAM What?

    DEAN Yeah.

    SAM Why didn’t you tell me any of that?

    DEAN Well, it’s a two-way street, dude. You could’ve picked up the phone. (SAM stares at him sadly.) Come on, we’re gonna be late for our appointment.

    I never took this to mean that Sam just didn’t answer the ringing phone but that he could have checked on them too if he bothered to pick up the phone:

    “Dad checked on you, you could have picked up the phone and called us.”

    Of course, nobody told Sam this stuff so he still thought his dad was mad at him.

    Say it with me, Winchesters–Com mun i ca tion

    Comment by inky — November 15, 2013 @ 4:13 pm

  156. I always thought the boys had some type of falling out in Sam’s junior year of college. That’s why they didn’t speak for two years. They were clearly in communication during Sam’s freshman and sophomore years.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 15, 2013 @ 5:51 pm

  157. This is from Wiki

    Eric Kripke acknowledged during a panel at the 2006 William S. Paley Television Festival that they made a mistake in the script – initially Sam was meant to be 20, then they aged him up to 22, but neglected to change Dean’s line from “two years” to “four years.” Therefore, it may have been the creators’ intention that Sam has been at college for four years.

    Regardless of intentions, however, there is a school of thought that disallows such retconning external to the text itself. That is to say, once the episode has been aired, whatever has occurred in it becomes part of the canon, no matter how much the production crew say “We didn’t mean it that way” – it’s essentially out of their hands.

    With this line of reasoning, it’s possible to read this particular issue as not contradictory at all – Sam has spent four years at college, but it has been only two years since he’s had contact with Dean.

    Another suggestion is that it was not two or four but three years. This theory is based on the suggestion that if four years had passed since Sam left for Stanford, he would have already graduated and been in law school by the time of the Pilot (which he is not). With this line of reasoning, Sam could not logically have been away for four years.

    This theory also takes into account the timeline of the Pilot – set at Halloween, Sam would only have been two months into his fourth year of college. This would mean that he has been at Stanford for three years and two months.

    Comment by inky — November 15, 2013 @ 6:49 pm

  158. @ Lisa1 and inky: There is show canon and there is fan canon, and everyone has their own head (fan) canon. My head canon tells me that Ben Edlund was giving the fans the third finger for all their bitching about the writers incessant trashing of canon last year because of their laziness and hubris. In doing so, Edlund ruined a very poignant moment between the two brothers that involved background for the Winchester brothers (Croatoan written by a very good writer, John Shiban) when Dean begged Sam to go to the Grand Canyon because he was trying to deal with John telling him that he may have to kill Sam. I believe that Edlund did that deliberately as a way of inserting himself into the episode and speaking to the fans (giving them the finger) and/or perhaps just to insert a donkey farting joke into the episode.

    That’s my head canon. Sometimes head canon bumps up against show canon. In the case of Sam and Dean’s Heaven, the brothers had no control over their memories, but the memories were theirs and show canon has established that when people go to Heaven, they live their fondest memories over and over every day. The angels ran the show, but the memories were definitely those of each person.

    DSotM: Ash: There’s a hundred billion [heavens].

    DSotM – Sam: SAM: Maybe that’s what heaven is: a place where you relive your greatest hits.

    Ash’s heaven was of the Roadhouse. Pamela’s heaven was at a Morningstar concert. Ken Lay’s heaven was the throne boardroom Raphael was sitting in (The Man Who Would Be King) and the drowned man’s heaven was of a quiet, sunny field or meadow (The Man Who Would Be King). Sam and Dean were soul mates, so could share each other’s heaven, but Sam’s were of those times he “bailed on his family,” doing his own thing. Dean’s memories were of spending time with Sam and of his mother.

    No, inky: Sam did not share Dean’s memory of the 4th of July. Dean told Sam about that memory. The rest of your post is fanwanking or rationalization — head canon. I’m sure Sam has some happy memories of his and Dean’s time together, but those did not show up in his greatest hits and we have never seen them. Sam’s fondest memories, fond enough to be a part of his heaven, were being away or getting away from his family. Period.

    No, Lisa1. EK said in an interview years ago that the writers screwed up the math. Sam was in his senior year preparing for a graduate school interview. There was no communication between Sam and Dean during Sam’s undergraduate years, and here in the U.S., that is a minimum of four years. It could have been only three years, since LSATs and looking into graduate school often takes place in the junior year, but not always.

    Comment by Sheri — November 15, 2013 @ 7:00 pm

  159. Everybody says it’s so hard for Sam because he didn’t have memories of his mother, and that may be true, but I

    Comment by roxi — November 15, 2013 @ 8:30 pm

  160. I contend: how can you miss something that much that you never had?
    It seems to me that Dean would feel the greater loss there. Sam never knew Mary,so how can he feel such a great loss for something he never had?
    And I remember Sam yelling at Dean, saying that his loss of Jessica was worse that Dean’s loss of Mary, because Dean was only 4 years old. Well, do you think, Sam that a small child wouldn’t be traumatized over losing his mother? ‘
    And caitlin, I resent your insinuation that somehow Dean is weak, because he tried to be a good son. No, he WASN’T weak, Dean was the one who took care of Sam from the time he was a small child himself. And I believe Dean was more traumatized from John’s parenting than Sam, since the show made it clear that despite the tension, Sam was John’s favorite. Dean probably knew that and tried so hard to make his father love him as much by being a good son.

    Comment by roxi — November 15, 2013 @ 8:36 pm

  161. Yes, I’m aware of what EK said, but the SHOW made it clear that Sam and Dean hadn’t spoken in 2 years. Sam was in his senior year of college; his 4th year of school. So, they had contact during this freshman and sophomore years.

    Just b/c EK goofed the episode doesn’t mean they suddenly had no contact the entire time Sam was at school. I don’t care what EK intended; I only care about what was aired during the Pilot. Before I came online, I just assumed they spoke for a 2 years before they stopped communicating. I wouldn’t have ever known about this script error if I hadn’t come online, so I base my belief on the show and what was aired.

    And on the show that aired in 2005, Dean (or Sam) mentioned not speaking to the other for 2 years. assumed since Sam was a senior in college (21-22), he and Dean had contact when Sam first went to school, but had some type of falling out and stopped speaking to each other. The dialogue in the episode supports that theory b/c Dean said he hadn’t spoken to Sam in 2 years. Sam was a senior in college, so that means he and Dean definitely were in touch during his freshman year at least.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 15, 2013 @ 8:45 pm

  162. That last paragraph is full of typos so here we go again :-)

    And on the show that aired in 2005, Dean (or Sam) mentioned that they hadn’t spoken in 2 years. Sam was shown to be a senior in college, so he and Dean were clearly in contact at some point during Sam’s college years – most likely during his freshman year at school. The dialogue supports this.

    I am not sure why it is often in dispute. Kripke can wish all day long that he corrected his error, but canon is canon. In canon, Sam and Dean WERE in contact during while Sam was at college. As Inky pointed out, given when we meet Sam – presumably in the beginnings months of his senior year – it is likely that Sam and Dean were only in touch during Sam’s freshman year and the beginning of his sophomore year, but they were definitely in touch w/each other.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 15, 2013 @ 8:57 pm

  163. Sheri, maybe we aren’t talking about the same thing. I know Dean was the one that woke up to the memory of July 4. It is also a good memory for Sam obviously because we saw his happiness.

    Of course what memories to show where picked out by the writers to push the plot along and dig the knife a little deeper into Dean. And to highlight the differing perspectives of the brothers from their growing up ye because Dean was unhappy was disportionate to what was going on. From Sam’s perspepctive as a kid those things were at the top of his wish list. There isn’t anything wrong with that. SInce then he has chosen to stay with his brother over and over again. And Dean’s important memories were to make Sam happy and to be taken care of by his momh which perfectly in line with who he is.

    I don’t think my post was wanky, it was my opinion based on what I saw on the show and speculation from the subtext in that episode and other pieces of info from other episodes. I don’t know, I think I made some pretty reasonable assumptions based on what we know. If we only state concrete facts about the show. Period. and don’t talk about what it all means and speculate about the characters motivations and tie them to past actions, then I get bored quickly.

    So, Sam’s shown memories on DSOTM don’t have Dean in them but what does that mean? I know some people want it to mean that he is a selfish bastard that doesn’t love his brother enough (it’s their default position) but I think things are much more complex then that and that’s interesting to me. Of course your mileage may vary.

    Comment by inky — November 15, 2013 @ 9:04 pm

  164. Whoops, the forum ate part of my paragraph

    Of course what memories to show where picked out by the writers to push the plot along and dig the knife a little deeper into Dean. And to highlight the differing perspectives of the brothers from their growing up years. I think that the hate and blame that has been thrown at Sam over this epi because Dean was unhappy was disportionate to what was going on. From Sam’s perspective as a kid those things were at the top of his wish list. There isn’t anything wrong with that. Sam saying he wasnt controlling which memories to relive implies that there are other memories we didn’t see and Since then he has chosen to stay with his brother over and over again. And Dean’s important memories were to make Sam happy and to be taken care of by his mom which perfectly in line with who he is.

    Comment by inky — November 15, 2013 @ 9:11 pm

  165. roxi, I think that Sam and Dean have very different kinds of pain over the loss of their mother. Since Dean remembers her, he misses her and feels her loss. Since Sam doesn’t remember her, he feels that empty space and the pain and regret of what he missed out on.

    Off in speculation land again, if John had given the boys a normal life, they would felt the loss of their mom but they would (hopefully) have had healthier ideas of family. Dean wouldn’t hang on so hard and Sam wouldn’t have pushed away.

    Comment by inky — November 15, 2013 @ 9:27 pm

  166. Well, to everybody here, I have to apologize, because my God, these are people who DON’T exist that we get so worked up and emotional about, and I know I have become one of the worst. I just realized how way too wrapped up I’m getting in this. I’m FAR too old to get this invested in a TV show and it’s fictional characters.
    So, maybe I should just step back a bit, and enjoy watching SPN like a normal person.
    What is it about this little cult show that takes up so much of a fan’s life? I’m serious.

    Comment by roxi — November 15, 2013 @ 9:35 pm

  167. @166. Tell me about it, roxi :D . I’m 50, and care so much about these fictional characters and the show, and get all emotionally wrapped up in their trials and tribulations. I’m not sure how that happened, but here I am!

    Not sure I can be ‘normal’ about the show anymore :)

    Comment by Tammy — November 15, 2013 @ 9:44 pm

  168. And so, carrying on with my obsession…

    Dean’s decision about letting Zeke possess Sam doesn’t bother me so much as what’s happening now. Sure, It was ‘wrong’, but it’s very much who Dean is, IMO.

    But if you really think about it, it’s scary, the potential for disaster. Zeke can totally control Sam if he wants to. Even if he gets suspicious, he can wipe the memories from his mind. Maybe that’s whats happening (though I don’t think so). He can start controlling Sam and fool Dean into thinking its his brother. The more I think about it, the scarier it gets! I totally feel it’s time for Dean to come clean. Alas, if only the boys would listen to us.

    Comment by Tammy — November 15, 2013 @ 9:50 pm

  169. I agree with Richard @3. Sadly, nothing will ever match S1. The winning combination of Manners and Kripke is gone. So is the intelligence, imagination, and guts of all SN’s early writers and directors–people who brought pride to their work and respect to the horror genre. They knew how to use light and shadow, music, and ordinary locales to evoke a sense of mysterious, appalling evil; they knew how to build suspense, develop rich, colorful characters, and speak the truth through simple dialogue remarkable for its beauty. They didn’t rely on silly fanfics or comic book gimmicks for inspiration; they drew upon ancient tales and urban legends that survive the passage of time because they strike a chord deep within the human psyche. The pioneers of SN didn’t have much money, but they had something far better: the gift for getting us to pull our chairs up to the edge of the cliff while they told us a damned good story.

    Comment by Watcher — November 15, 2013 @ 10:24 pm

  170. Reply to 169 Watcher.

    That was beautifully said and reflects my own feelings exactly. There is no comparison between what these mediocre writers are force-feeding us now, and the epicness than were the early seasons.

    What annoys me is that there is no reason that those early seasons can’t be repeated.
    Sam, Dean and the Impala still exist, as do many unexplored urban legends; what’s missing of course is the love and passion for these two characters.
    At times I feel these writers hate Sam and Dean, and are at their happiest when keeping them apart, pushing them to the side, making them look incapable and stupid, and concentrating their efforts on the weak secondary characters.

    Where is the cocky, bad-ass big brother Dean and the emo, curious, chick-flicky little brother Sam with their boundless brotherly bond?

    What a terrible shame, such a unique show downgraded from the little horror show that could to a demeaning sit-com full of trashed canon. :(

    Comment by Giacinta — November 16, 2013 @ 12:10 am

  171. Uh, that’s beautifully put, 169 and 170, but I couldn’t disagree more. If the show was still churning out motw one-offs with no larger story in hackneyed X-files lighting I definitely wouldn’t be watching and I doubt most other fans would be either. Frankly, I think Sam and Dean need side characters to temper their macho killer vibes. I don’t need all testosterone all the time in a tv show – I get enough of that at work.
    The originality and courage of the series in dealing with big issues: God, death, and addiction in the context of family is what keeps me tuning in. Great writing, great acting, and a willingness to evolve and experiment is exactly why I love SPN. I have.my favorites and my preferred plot lines too – but I’m willing to follow where the show goes, no matter how far from the garden path it gets.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — November 16, 2013 @ 1:23 am

  172. At first when i saw the sygringe I thought crowely must see that sam has an angel in him and wants to tap into that. but then when he asked for kevins I thought no way would the smart winchester let him get a hit of prophet blood. and yet he did so nonetheless. I wonder if sam is going to tell dean about it? those winchesters are all about keeping secrets from each other. by the way, why the hell can’t crowley see that sam has an angel in him? He had no problem seeing angels before. I get cas not seeing them; he is no longer an angel but what is carver’s reason for crowely not seeing them?
    anywho, great episode, than again after the past two episodes anything would have been better.

    Comment by jumponthis — November 16, 2013 @ 7:47 am

  173. @160: Roxi, um no, honey. Sam was NOT John’s favourite. That’s not true. He was the unfavourite. I don’t know what show you watch, but there has been nothing to indicate that Sam was John’s favourite whatsoever.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 16, 2013 @ 9:17 am

  174. Hey Jumponthis
    How do u know that Crowley doesn’t know that Sam has Angel in him? I swear I would never put ANYTHING past Crowley ;)

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 16, 2013 @ 9:21 am

  175. @173- Probably because John fussed so much more about Sam but more than that, the show itself came right out and stated it several times, that Sam was John’s favorite. NEVER did we see John fuss about Dean or show as much concern or pride over him until Dean was dying and he gave his soul for him which I’ll admit trumps how ever much he disregarded in before.

    Comment by roxi — November 16, 2013 @ 9:26 am

  176. @175: But Roxi, that doesn’t mean that Sam was John’s favourite just because he “fused over him”. John fussed over Sam, because he was the youngest and needed constant protecting. That is natural for the parent to want the youngest to be protected. I know from personal experience. My parents and my older sister and brother were very protective of me, that didn’t make me the favourite. I was picked on more than anyone in the family. And the same goes for Sam. Sam was the unfavourite son. And it’s okay to be the unfavourite. I was the unfavourite as well and I’m fine with that.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 16, 2013 @ 9:33 am

  177. The reason John and Sam had so much tension was exactly because John worried so much over Sam and wanted to keep him safe. The show made a point of giving us a couple of intense scenes between John and Sam, in Dean’s absence, where John’s love for Sam was emphasized. We only got a brief heart to heart like that between John and Dean AFTER John already knew he was going to Hell. Even then, his parting words to Dean were about Sam. And even demons taunted Dean with the knowledge that John loved Sam more.
    But like I said, when someone willingly gives up their life and chooses an eternity suffering in Hell for you, in tends to trump anything that came before.
    But I guess you still think Dean is weak because he tried to be a good son.
    Sam might have blossomed into an independent minded person, but Dean deserves a lot of credit for getting Sam there. He raised him, looked after him, fed him, fended for him, etc. That is NOT somebody who is weak. Dean was Sam’s rock. Sam would have never survived his childhood without Dean.
    But Dean should have relinquished his hold on Sam a long time ago. His need for Sam has not been good for either of them.

    Comment by roxi — November 16, 2013 @ 9:38 am

  178. 2177- Ok, well John DID have some loving words to Dean about Dean too, in that scene.
    Maybe I misread your meaning, but to me, it was always obvious that John loved Sam so much more, and Dean knew this, and tried hard to win John’s love by being the good, obedient son. I guess what I’m really referring to was that I thought you were insinuating that Dean was weak, or weak minded, because of this. Maybe you didn’t mean it that way.
    In any case, it’s still just a TV show about people who don’t exist.

    Comment by roxi — November 16, 2013 @ 9:43 am

  179. @178: I never implied that Dean was weak. I’m talking about my own family. My sister is weak because she is very submissive. Dean is not entirely submissive. He is willing to make tough decisions. My sister never did. That is what made her “weak”. Dean is a strong character and i never implied that Dean himself was a weak person. Do I think he’s a martyr when it comes to Sam? Absolutely. And I don’t think it’s a good thing. The only time I think Dean is weak is in regards to Sam but that is to be expected. Sam is everything to him.

    And regarding Sam being John’s favourite and demons taunting Dean about it, don’t you know that demons lie They never tell the truth. Nobody should trust what a demon says or take anything they say as the truth, because it would be stupid to do so. The way i have watched the show and the way I have always seen it, Sam has always been the unfavorite of the family.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 16, 2013 @ 9:56 am

  180. 169–wonderfully put.

    I don’t think John had a favorite. He did recognized how different they were. Dean was almost a carbon copy of his father; John thought he knew how to deal with Dean. Sam he never really understood. John had no idea how to deal with him. He ended up treating Dean like an adult and denying him a childhood and kicking Sam out of the family when he went to college. He was more interested in killing that demon than taking the time to understand his children. He really could only begin to understand them somewhat when they were adults. SPN once actually explored complicated, an all too realistic, human relationships.

    Comment by CaseyT — November 16, 2013 @ 10:33 am

  181. I think that Sam got more attention for a couple of reasons. First, by virtue of being the baby of the family, there is an automatic sense that he needs looking after. Second, he was a wild card. John didn’t really have to worry about Dean following instructions but Sam could just off or argue at a vital moment. The rebellious kid gets the most attention; it happened in my family. This doesn’t necessarily make the kid who is fighting for independence the favorite, it just means that the parents constantly worried that this child is going to do something stupid and get hurt. Sometimes the parents can resent the problem child even though they love them so much.

    I can see John being scared to death that Sam was going to go off and get himself hurt or killed so it became Dean’s responsibility to look after him. Which unfortunately fed into Dean’s insecurities and made Sam resentful of feeling smothered.

    So I don’t if the demon was telling the truth about Sam being John’s favorite or if it was just trying to mess with Dean by confirming his own fears.

    Comment by jace — November 16, 2013 @ 11:33 am

  182. @Caitlin-Man you couldn’t be any more wrong about Dean being weak or your sister being weak. And I don’t even know your sister.

    You see Caitlin it doesn’t take courage to live your life doing what you want reguardless of what is needed from you by other people especially family. Dean understands this. That family will always have your back and yea sacrifice is the ultimate form of Love for any child or family member. It takes courage to sacrifice to take care of a family member or someone else who you love. To let go of dreams because of the love you have for another person or the responsibility you feel towards another human being. To not have that kind of love in your life means you are pretty empty and selfish. As Sam is.

    Sam didn’t care about family and did what he wanted. His family John and Dean) has always had his back since the get go. They have sacrificed for him.Especially Dean. Sam on the other hand has shown that he crumbles when he knows his family isn’t there to have his back. When he is alone in the world. The sacrifices Sam has made is only for his own atonement for what he himself has felt guilty over. Not for anyone else. Even his ultimate sacrifice with falling into the pit was because HE felt that HE needed to atone for opening Lucifers cage. Not because he was thinking he would save the world. Whereas Dean has sacrificed for others -Sam being the main one.

    John new for awhile that Sam was destined for being evils b*tch. IMO I think John watched over Sam (cared so to speak) only because he was watching out for signs that Sam may have been going evil or being attacked by Yellow Eyes. John got frustrated with Sam because of Sam’s independence and John was afraid for Sam when Sam would take off. But even so John would go by the college to make sure he was OK- John had Sam’s back-whose back did Sam have??? Nobody but himself. That doesn’t take courage-that’s selfishness and weakness.

    Comment by animal — November 16, 2013 @ 12:17 pm

  183. I just watched that episode in s4 with the rougarou (spelling??) -at the end Sam said he wasn’t going to do his mind thing anymore. And Dean said Thank YOu. Even then Sam said -I am not doing it for you. I am doing it for me. That is who Sam is. Sam is always about Me Me and Me somemore first and foremost. Then he thinks about Dean and others.

    Comment by animal — November 16, 2013 @ 12:21 pm

  184. Woah animal I couldn’t disagree more.

    Sure sometimes it can come across like Dean loves Sam a little harder than Sam loves Dean but I think it’s just because of their different characteristics. Dean’s protectiveness, having raised Sam, desperate need to keep Sam close by all lead to situations where he carries his heart on his sleeve and they offer a good payoff. Sam’s default reaction to a crisis is to remove himself, to walk off and when you contrast that with Dean’s panic mode, which is to try to grip on tighter, it might seem like Sam is the more uncaring one. Dean’s devotion to Sam is so total that there needs to be an offsetting balance of a character that is more independent but _still_ loves just as much and is thus worthy of everything.

    Comment by San — November 16, 2013 @ 1:09 pm

  185. I don’t think Dean’s “devotion” to Sam is one that Dean came to on his own. I think that it originated with John telling Dean to “take care of Sam” which eventually Dean realized he HAD to keep strings tight with Sam because evil was closing in on Sam. Yea Dean loves Sam-Its Family-its family first. Dean has always been Family first. Sam not at all. Dean can do without family though-we have seen him live a relatively normal life when Sam has walked off or was in the pit. yea he might not have been totally happy-Who can be when a family member is gone from you. Hell I still feel my Dads loss after 5 years. so that is normal. But the main thing is Dean doesn’t break down and doesn’t need family-But he understands the sacrifice one has to make sometimes for family. Sam hasn’t shown that at all.

    Comment by animal — November 16, 2013 @ 1:21 pm

  186. Sam on the other hand-breaks down when family is not around -(in college Sam’s “family” was Jess) the family love (Dean)always brings him back around. I know I sound like I don’t like Sam but I really love both brothers. I like the difference between the two.And how the plays off each other But I don’t put rose colored glasses on the characters just because I like them. I see them for who/what they are or written as per season.

    Comment by animal — November 16, 2013 @ 1:28 pm

  187. Like I said, Sam and Dean have different views on family. I’m not sorry for the decisions I’ve made and I don’t regret anything. I’m happy and obviously, I did not need to rely on family in order to be happy. The same way Sam didn’t need his family to live somewhat happy before Dean came along and dragged back into a miserable life that he would never be able to escape. Sam made the choices he made and t is what it is. I’m not a people pleaser. People like Dean and my sister, are people pleasers. And to be honest, I really don’t have that much respect for people who are just do things to please others. If that makes Sam selfish, then I guess he’s selfish. I’ve been called selfish by own sister and it doesn’t really bother me. Being selfish got me a contented life while my sister, being the obedient little daughter that she was, ended up being the most miserable person I have ever seen in my life. Therefore, I’m not gonna apologize for following my own path and brought me happiness away from a dysfunctional family. And Sam shouldn’t have had to apologize either. Sam was not wrong.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 16, 2013 @ 1:32 pm

  188. and San I didn’t say Sam didn’t love Dean-he does-He has shown concern for Dean-Like last season when Dean came out of the Djinn sleep. But Dean isn’t Sam’s first thought. Sam is Sam’s first thought. Too much so. I will lay you odds than when Sam finds out about Zeke-The scene will be Sam thinking of himself first instead of what/why Dean did what he did. The lies are wrong though don’t get me wrong. I want Sam and Dean to fight like cats and dogs about the lies because they both do it tooooo much. And Sam has every right to that. But I bet he will say how can you do that to me??? (reguarding zeke) He will think about himself first. imo. peace.

    Comment by animal — November 16, 2013 @ 1:37 pm

  189. Caitlin-I don’t know you-I don’t know your family-what I do know is there is not a parent or family out there that is perfect in every single way. There is not a parent or a family or a family member that hasn’t done something wrong-its what makes us human. I also know that it takes not one bit of courage or strength to leave hardship behind-leave problems behind to make a life for oneself or to follow ones dreams. It takes more courage and strength to stay, to forgive to help out with problems or help ones family. Or to protect ones family or even work at being a family.

    Comment by animal — November 16, 2013 @ 1:49 pm

  190. @animal: It’s clear that you don’t understand Sam as a character whatsoever. Peace.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 16, 2013 @ 1:52 pm

  191. You should be proud that you were able to go and live on your own and make yourself happy and do what you love to do. But I think it would have been more satisfying if you had the support and love of your family with out all the drama. It sounds to me-and if I am stepping over the boundry -just tell me to mind my own business-that you were running from your family. It would have been better to walk with them to your happiness. Peace!!

    Comment by animal — November 16, 2013 @ 1:57 pm

  192. @animal: Yeah, of course I was running from my family. In fact, i used to run away all the time from the tender age of 11 and 12. My parents and my older sister used to panic when I ran away. They didn’t know where I was, I often ran away and stayed over at my best friends house. You know why? Because my best friend had a much better and more peaceful family then I ever had. As I got older, I realized that I ran away because I was really yearning for freedom. Freedom from chaos, freedom from dysfunction. THIS IS WHY I GET SAM. This is why I understand and sympathize with him so much. And it hurts me when people just attack Sam without understanding. Sam never had peace and happiness in his family. Everything revolving around Sam has been complete and total chaos. Sam ran away because he wanted to escape. And I really can’t blame him. I did the same thing. Because running away was the only way to relieve the chaos, get away from the problems. This is why it upsets me when people attack Sam and call him selfish and whatever. Nobody seems to get Sam and where he’s coming. Everyone always takes Dean’s side.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 16, 2013 @ 2:09 pm

  193. And Caitlin-I do know Sam-He is just a character on a show-a show that very much leaves interpretation to the viewer. Where the writers don’t write everything into the script or shows it on screen.

    Dean telling cas to leave for example. Canon is Canon though-what is said/shown is fact-Some fans can relate to one character for any number of reasons-I respect that you relate to Sam and why you do. I personally don’t relate to any of the characters. I just love Sam and Dean-and I watch for them. I lean more to Dean because in the earlier seasons he was a the definition of hero that I like to watch on TV. Now not so much. but I hang in there for Jensen and Jared and hope that they bring that Dean from s1-s4 back. This next episode might be a beginning.

    Comment by animal — November 16, 2013 @ 2:10 pm

  194. @ animal. I just can’t see Sam as “empty” and “selfish” and I don’t see that as having rose coloured glasses. I don’t think John looked out for Sam only so he wouldn’t go evil or got attacked by the demon he was hunting. And remember how in season 6 Dean is freaked out because suddenly he thinks Sam doesn’t have his back (Sam was soulless). This implies that Sam does have Dean’s back.

    Re: It takes courage to sacrifice to take care of a family member or someone else who you love. To let go of dreams because of the love you have for another person or the responsibility you feel towards another human being.

    Do you mean that Sam shouldn’t have gone to Standford?

    I don’t really understand why you would hold it against Sam if he will first think of himself when the secret is revealed and asks how Dean could have done such a thing. To me that would be a perfectly normal and reasonable reaction given what they know about possession, angels and being a vessel.

    Comment by San — November 16, 2013 @ 2:13 pm

  195. Caitlin-the fact that your family-parents and sister were worried about you when you ran away shows that they loved you and cared about what happened to you. You running away didn’t help the chaos that was your home life. It made it worse. Am I stepping over the boundry??? I am sorry. Its just that when I hear stories like yours -and I don’t know all of it-what I see is a family that didn’t talk -and Caitlin -parents aren’t perfect-neither are siblings. Neither were you. you said so-you were rebellious. What I also know is that parents are under a lot of strain-Unless you have kids -you don’t know the half of it.especially if money is short. Maybe your parents needed to talk to you more about what the actual family life was. A lot of parents aren’t open with their kids -they don’t talk to their kids as equals. not adult to adult type but just informative and teaching type talks. but that doesn’t make them bad parents.

    Comment by animal — November 16, 2013 @ 2:22 pm

  196. @San: Exactly. The reveal should be about Sam. Because well…IT IS ABOUT SAM. Don’t get me wrong, I love Dean and I understand why he did what he did, but it doesn’t change the fact that Dean STILL violated Sam by having some unknown entity possess him without his knowledge. That is very concerning and very serious. So when Sam discovers what Dean did, Sam does have a right to be angry (at Dean) and he does have a right to make it about himself, because guess what? IT IS ABOUT WHAT DEAN DID TO SAM. Not what Sam did to Dean. I can’t believe some on here who are actually making Sam the bad guy for being violated without his knowledge by his own brother. What is this?

    Comment by Caitlin — November 16, 2013 @ 2:22 pm

  197. San-yes I was talking about Stanford-The family needed him to help to hunt down and kill yellow eyes. I think John even said something to that effect in one of the episodes.

    I won’t hold it against Sam for thinking of himself with “how could you do that to me”. It is who sam is. But you would think that after how many years living and hunting with his brother-TRUSTING his brother would be first and foremost.

    Comment by animal — November 16, 2013 @ 2:25 pm

  198. Caitlin-Dean DID NOT have some unknown entity possess him- Dean gave permission for said entity to TRY TO get sam to say yes TO SAVE HIS LIFE. Sam said yes by his own free will. Sam should by now TRUST DEAN and listen and understand the reasoning by now. How many years has Dean had Sams back?? 32 years????

    Comment by animal — November 16, 2013 @ 2:28 pm

  199. @animal: But it doesn’t change the fact that Dean tricked him into saying yes! Sam said yes, but about what? Dean still violated Sam and what he did was wrong. He should have just told Sam what he wanted to do and Sam probably would have discussed with Dean whether it was okay or not. But instead, he resorted to manipulation and I don’t think that was right on Dean’s part. Now Dean is lying through his teeth on daily basis due to the decision he made. Where has it gotten Dean? Oh yeah, feeling a whole lot of guilt as usual.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 16, 2013 @ 2:35 pm

  200. @ Lisa #163: The error in math EK talked about was 2, instead of 4 years, and there has never been any indication in the show that Sam and Dean talked or had any contact at any time during Sam’s college years until Dean showed up in the Pilot.

    Pilot:
    SAM
    I was just going to college. It was Dad who said if I was gonna go I should stay gone. And that’s what I’m doing.

    Bugs:
    SAM Why didn’t you tell me any of that?

    DEAN Well, it’s a two-way street, dude. You could’ve picked up the phone.

    SAM
    Uh, the phone?

    DEAN
    If I’d'a called, would you have picked up?

    The error in math does allow for any head canon anybody wants to assign, though, because there is no definitive canon that can be pointed to to clear it up.

    As far as John favoring Sam, I’ve always thought that he did. John was a bastard. He put undue pressure on a 4-year old up and was very harsh on Dean. We’ve never had any indication, other than the two of them butting heads, that John put any undue pressure on Sam.

    But I don’t think it is a matter of not loving Dean. John loved both his boys in his own way. I think that Dean, being a natural born hunter and because he was so young and remembered all he lost (a loving mother, a loving father, his security, his childhood), he assumed those obligations. In other words, both John and Dean spoiled Sam and gave in to him. Dean’s esteem issues definitely came from the way John treated him, though (Something Wicked and Dream a Little Dream:

    DEAN

    My father was an obsessed bastard!

    All that crap he dumped on me, about protecting Sam. That was his crap. He’s the one who couldn’t protect his family.

    He’s the one who let Mom die.

    Who wasn’t there for Sam. I always was! He wasn’t fair! I didn’t deserve what he put on me.

    In John’s defense, I think we saw an evolution to his parenting. He was harsh on Dean, but tried to keep Sam out of the family business for as long as possible. When Adam showed up, he went to great extremes not to include him in the life, which included keeping Sam and Dean a secret from him. But he was a selfish bastard.

    I think Sam, being exactly like John, has been a selfish bastard pretty much all of his life, too, and even at Dean’s expense (DSotM). But the one thing the show has always shown is that the two of them serve as each other’s view of their best self…that they need each other to keep the dark away.

    I saw Sacrifice last year of Sam acknowledging; not to himself, but to the audience, that he needs Dean to love him for who he is — flaws and all, and Dean did acknowledge that at Sam’s lowest point — the point when he acknowledged all the crap he has done to Dean. The reason the brothers are stronger together, in my mind, is that they get power from the other’s view of them.

    I am hoping that this season is exploring that point further. It’s a subtle story that I hope doesn’t get overshadowed by Cas and Crowley and angels. It looks to me like they are showing that the love Dean has for Sam can have a down side and turn into hurtful situations.

    That’s why I’ll be pissed off if Sam stomps off again. Dean needs to learn for himself that Sam loves him for the person he is; that he doesn’t have to carry the world on his shoulders, and that he can trust Sam to help him. Sam stomping off in a hissy fit isn’t going to further that at all.

    At least, that’s what I’m hoping to see, even if it is the B story. Kim Manners could pull it off. I don’t know if this new bunch can at all.

    Comment by Sheri — November 16, 2013 @ 2:36 pm

  201. Technically Caitlin-Zeke tricked Sam not Dean-and there was no violation-(I hate that word by the way being used in this situation) If Sam had said no and Zeke still possessed him then I would agree with you that there was a “violation”-but Sam said YES Caitlin-Sam didn’t ask what the PLAN was-that is on Sam not Dean. If Sam asked and he was told a lie then I would say “that is a violation”. Sam trusted Dean that is why he said yes-so he should trust him again when the truth comes out and not be po’d. But from what I have read-Sam once again stomps off. Hopefully I am wrong but it sure sounds that way.

    Comment by animal — November 16, 2013 @ 2:45 pm

  202. However I still think Sam won’t be po’s about the zeke possession. He will be po’d that Dean lied to him after the fact. That I do agree with you. And believe me it ticks me off that the Carver took the story that way.

    Comment by animal — November 16, 2013 @ 2:47 pm

  203. @201: Yes, you’re right. I think Sam will be less pissed off about the actual possession. He’ll be pissed that Dean lied to him about it the whole time. That is what Jared said recently at a con. And Sam’s anger regarding it is completely justified.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 16, 2013 @ 2:50 pm

  204. Caitlin, I can’t blame Sam either. He had a very unhappy childhood except for Dean. In 7.03 young Sam doesn’t want Dean to put dad on the phone and the discussion he has with John is very tense and apparently ends when John just hangs up after he got to say what he had to say. Sam implies that John acts horrible when he is drunk. On top of all that Sam had demon blood in him, which made him feel like a freak and impure even when he was so little that Dean would read to him. It should be noted that in that episode Sam was offered a chance to run away with Amy but he decided to stay with his family.

    Comment by San — November 16, 2013 @ 3:01 pm

  205. @203-yes he has a right to be angry with Dean for lying about it-but stomping off-not so much. Character growth would be to get pis*ed-yell and scream about it. Then talk about it-then get over it. Trust Dean that he knew what he was doing-why he lied to a point. Dean should have trusted Sam to be OK with the possession once he found out about it but Dean didn’t trust Sam to want to live I guess is what we as a viewer are supposed to believe. Or that Sam wouldn’t want to help Zeke heal at the same time. I personally don’t believe either of those but whatever. It was stupid to have Dean lie about it period. Carver and his drama-yuk!!!

    Comment by animal — November 16, 2013 @ 3:11 pm

  206. @192- If you really think everybody talks Deans side you aren’t reading the sites I’ve been reading. ALL of them take Sam’s side for every and anything, he can no wrong in their eyes no matter what.’And Dean didn’t try to “drag” Sam in the life because he’s a prick, their father was missing. And he DID take him back to Stanford.And your own words indicate that you don’t respect Dean, because you see him as a “people pleaser”
    Dean’s NOT a people pleaser, he only tried to please his father, who never gave any indication that he loved Dean until the very end. None that I saw anyway.
    Demons lie, but we’ve been told that they also tell the truth sometimes if they think they can screw with your head. I believe YED in John was telling Dean the truth about how Dean didn’t mean as much to John as Sam did.
    And Dean’s obsessive devotion to Sam is not only toxic to Sam, but to Dean as well. He feels he has no value or worth outside of supporting/looking after Sam, and yes, John, and even to a degree Bobby, reinforced this idea.

    Comment by roxi — November 16, 2013 @ 3:35 pm

  207. I obviously don’t know how this will all play out but I think Sam will have some mixed emotions over this whole thing. I do too.

    It’s in the dialogue that Dean knew that Sam would not consent to being possessed. And Zeke and Dean clearly conspired to trick him. We can justify it all we want but Dean helped to something to his brother that he knew very well he would say no to. There was no informed consent going on here. He did say he would trust Dean to help him live but I am not sure he gave him carte blanche to let him lose control of his own body and memory. There is a line there and Dean went over it.

    After his experiences with Lucifer and Meg, I can see Sam justifiably thinking that this was a violation of his trust in Dean. I can see him being angry about his memory being

    Comment by jace — November 16, 2013 @ 5:32 pm

  208. wiped. He was sure distressed when it was done to Lisa and Ben. In addition, Dean had no idea if Zeke is good or
    bad. After all those years of being jerked about by supernatural forces, Sam would rather be dead than the puppet of someone who is using him to hurt other people. And the on-going lie will be the hardest to swallow.

    He does have the right to be mad. He does have the right to stomp off for awhile (sorry, but he does.) There will be people will say Sam should just shake it off and quit being a b- about it and get disgusted that he is mad at Dean for saving life, but I totally think he has the right to do that. (I hated The Mentalists btw)

    However, I also totally sympathize with Dean as well. He has agonized over it ever since. He acted out of love and desperation. Took and risk and hoped it would work out. To me that is what is interesting about this story because I don’t think either of them are wrong.

    Having his free will taken away though is going to be tough to get over. It’s already an issue between them, “so free will, that’s only for you?” You know, Dean could tell Sam at any time and let him decide whether or not to keep Zeke healing him and give Sam his free will back. Sam will eventually forgive him; that’s who Sam is and they already foreshadowed it with Zeke telling him he did the right thing out of love, but I hope that the writers will not negate Sam’s right to be pissed off for awhile. (Did I mention I hated The Mentalists?)

    Comment by jace — November 16, 2013 @ 5:55 pm

  209. I know that Sam gets all pissed and stomps off, and that wouldn’t be so bad if it wasn’t his go-to act that we’ve seen a thousand times. He knows Dean has abandonment issues where his family is concerned, and Sam has used that repeatedly to get back at Dean when things weren’t going his way. That’s my problem with Sam getting all pissy.

    roxi also brings up an interesting point. In the whole history of this show, we have never seen an instance where John was emotionally abusive to Sam like he was to Dean. In Dead Man’s Blood, we saw that John’s abusive behavior towards Dean was a long-established pattern. The only thing we have heard about Sam and John is that they butt heads because they were just alike and Dean was the referee between the two of them.

    And, again, I say that Dean did not “violate” (which is most assuredly the wrong word) Sam in the possession. JA said that was Zeke using Dean’s form. What Dean is doing…and I’ve said this before…is lying to Sam, but even in the Bad Boys promo, it appears that Sam is healing, but he is still not completely healthy. He coughs and admits to being tired; i.e., not healed. So I say again, without the lies, in all likelihood and given Sam’s past behavior (the stomping off when all PO, Sam would get pissed and expel Zeke and we would be right back to Sam would be have died. His internal organs were completely fried and everything had shut down except his brain, trying to keep his body alive.

    It does look like he is doing better, but we don’t know how much of that is due to Zeke.

    Comment by Sheri — November 16, 2013 @ 6:14 pm

  210. I have a new laptop and I’m not used to typing with the touch pad mouse so I am losing words and sentences, argh.

    I didn’t say that Dean violated Sam in the possession. I said I could understand that Sam would feel that Dean violated the trust that Sam put in him by doing something that he knew Sam would consider really horrible.

    If Sam did expel Zeke and die as a result, Sam would have at least made the choice. Not that I want Sam to die but just from Sam’s perspective.

    Not to be harsh because I like Dean but Sam also can’t be held hostage to Dean issues if he needs to get away from the situation. They both need to work on their own stuff.

    Comment by jace — November 16, 2013 @ 6:26 pm

  211. @208 I agree that what Dean did was a violation. And I also agree that Sam will have a right to be pissed about it when he finds out.
    My disagreement comes with those who claim Dean did this because he’s horrible and selfish, although yes, there IS an element of selfishness sometimes to loving someone. To me, it seems clear that he did what he always does when it comes to Sam; he panicked, didn’t think of anything but the fact that he was losing Sam, reacted in a state of emotional turmoil, and on impulse. It was the WRONG thing to do, but his reasons were out of love, still WRONG though. Had he REALLY stopped and thought about it, REALLY saw that what Sam truly wanted was to be done with it all and embrace a peaceful death, I really want to believe that he would have made the truly loving and difficult choice to let him go. But of course then you wouldn’t have SPN anymore, nor any of the contrived drama and conflict between these brothers that these writers seem to thrive on.
    I still think my idea for Dean to transfer some of his life force to Sam was so much better.

    Comment by roxi — November 16, 2013 @ 6:26 pm

  212. roxi, I agree with you. I don’t think Dean is a horrible person either.

    Comment by jace — November 16, 2013 @ 6:51 pm

  213. Sheri – Here is the dialogue from the Pilot to which I’m referring:

    DEAN
    You know, in almost two years I’ve never bothered you, never asked you for a thing.

    SAM looks away and sighs, then looks back.

    SAM
    All right. I’ll go. I’ll help you find him.

    — I took that to mean that Dean and Sam had contact while Sam was at college.

    Again, I didn’t learn until four years AFTER the Pilot aired that that was a goof/error on EK’s part. I, reasonably, assumed they had spoken when Sam was at school, but had a falling out or argument of some sort at some point and were no longer in contact when the Pilot aired.

    My interpretation is a fair one given what Dean said, and the fact that Sam was, clearly, in his senior year. Dean says he’s 26, so we know Sam is 22. So, somewhere around 20, they stopped speaking.

    Erik made a mistake, but it is canon that S&D had contact during college.

    ————

    I will never understand why people get so upset if Sam wants to take off after an argument w/Dean. Should be beat Dean senseless as Dean tends to do to him? Is that better? Is Sam never supposed to get upset or leave if he’s upset b/c it may upset Dean? Does Sam have any right to his own feelings at all?

    If Sam wants to leave, he will have every right to leave. He will not be wrong for leaving either. If he wants to stay, that’s fine too. He will be entitled to feel however he feels.

    But I can foresee the Sam bashing to come. Fun times! He’s already a selfish, horrible, immature person, and the scenes haven’t even aired. Haha! I shouldn’t be surprised.

    Well, this brief reprieve was nice while it lasted. I’m out since I can see where this conversation is headed!

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 16, 2013 @ 7:06 pm

  214. @ Lisa1: I know the conversation and I know the math. You believe it was two years and that they had contact the first two years of college. I have seen nothing in the show to indicate that they did, and I believe EK when he says the writers can’t add, so I believe that they never had contact from the time Sam took off and until Dean showed up. As I said, everyone is allowed to think what they will about that, since the show has established no canon to cover the mistake.

    I would be very interested to see an episode where Sam and Dean had a big blow-up after two years and why they stopped all contact. That would mean that Sam met Jess after the blow-up, because she knew nothing about his past life (Skin) except he had a brother named Dean (Pilot).

    The Pilot and that mere fact both suggest that Sam walked away from everything and everyone in his past, meaning that he and Dean had to have some kind of major blowout, because Dean questioned Sam as to whether he would have answered the phone if Dean would have called him. For the show to completely ignore that all these years is a major plot hole.

    Comment by Sheri — November 16, 2013 @ 7:23 pm

  215. All I can say is Dean mentions not bothering Sam in two years. Sam was just in the beginnings of his final year of college, so they had to have had contact at least during his 1st year of college for Dean’s comment to make any sense.

    From the Brady episode, we learn that Sam met Jessica in his Sophomore year some time after Thanksgiving/Christmas. So, if we are to believe that S&D did have contact (which I do), then they likely stopped speaking some time in the Fall/Winter of Sam’s sophomore year and before he met Jessica. Why? Probably a disagreement over Sam’s choice to leave, John, hunting, etc.

    As I said, for those of us who never read articles/interviews re: the show, there was never a doubt that Sam and Dean were in contact after he left school. And I know I’m not the only one who thought this b/c I remember posts speculating on what led to them not speaking on this very board in the forums. I’ve also read plenty of fanfic that explored the reason they stopped talking.

    To me, the dialogue makes it clear they had contact, but whatever. Who cares anyway? That was 9 years ago, and it doesn’t really matter at this point.

    One last point – As I said, I always wondered what led to them not speaking but thought it was a dropped plot point like Dean’s eyes bleeding in “Scary Mary” or whatever that episode was called. Haha! I know it wasn’t called “Scary Mary.” LOL :-)

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 16, 2013 @ 9:19 pm

  216. @213, Lisa,I admit I haven’t gone to IMB, but I still don’t know where these other places are that you’re seeing the Sam bashing, cause all the sites I’ve visited, it’s all “Sam should be pissed, and “Dean is a worthless bastard”. On those sites Sam is getting a free pass for everything, including hoiw he acted towards Dean last season.
    This whole story line is terrible. Nobody wins.If Sam ever forgives Dean the Deanhaters will be pissed, and if Sam storms off the Sam haters will be pissed. Jeremy Carver has been horrible for the show. He and he terrible stable of writers and pretty much ruined it, but I’ll keep watching to see how it ends.

    Comment by roxi — November 16, 2013 @ 9:53 pm

  217. Jared said once that for the pilot he had to come uo with a good reason Sam wouldn’t have talked to Dean. He decided Dean slept with his girlfriend. (Which is believable, since early season Dean was kinda a douche sometimes). That’s why he was so pissed at Dean in the pilot.
    It would make sense if they had a blowup after this and Sam met Jessica after. Also why he didn’t really want Dean to talk to Jessica and didn’t take too kindly to Dean flirting with her.
    On the two vs. four year issue – I knew someone who had a lot of AP credits and really sexist parents who refused to pay for her education once her brother was ready for college. So she got her degree in three years. Even with a full ride to Stanford – I’m betting Sam was always worried about money – so I can totally see him doing this. So why not split the difference and say it was three years total?

    Comment by t1gerlilly — November 16, 2013 @ 11:02 pm

  218. A214 Sheri
    I only began watching SPN one year ago and I can assure you that when I watched the pilot, not knowing anything about the story at all, I understood that since Sam had left for college he had no contact with Dean or his father. That is why Dean said, “IF I had phoned you would you have picked up?” that sentence speaks volumes to me, it is why I carried on watching because it was rhetorically asked but was a very leading question. I don’t blame Sam one jot for leaving that life, goodness me I think had Dean not had the responsibility of looking after his brother, he might very well have taken off too! Sam was young and pissed and had a terrible upbringing, so his references were skewed somewhat, I just wish the writers had had the foresight to have him write to his brother, that would have set the relationship on an even keel.

    Quite honestly though, I really REALLY cannot understand how viewers can like one brother whilst blaming the other. How can it never ever be a satisfying story to them because both brothers have their faults, one brother apologises far too much, and the other brother takes all the flack (I swear I love Dean down to the his atoms, but it cannot be easy living with the man (and can the writers let me into Sam’s head just once pretty please, I really want to know how much Sam loves his brother not how sorry he is to have disappointed him)). Any hoo

    Can anyone tell me whose blood Crowley stole? This is the second time I am asking folks!!! ;)

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 17, 2013 @ 1:30 am

  219. @214 Sheri
    PS that question that Dean asks Sam “if I had phoned, would you have picked up?” is very telling because that is the exposition that starts the whole story off if you ask me. That is WHY Dean had to go fetch Sam in the first place. He physically had to go eyeball his brother. Dean didn’t even know who Jess was, and the atmosphere was electric between the brothers, they were certainly not on friendly terms. It makes sense that if they were in contact, then Dean would have phoned Sam to meet him somewhere. JMO so don’t shoot me down everyone

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 17, 2013 @ 1:34 am

  220. @214 Sheri
    last PS promise
    re Dean cannot be easy to live with… I always laugh when I see Sam holding up the squished toothpaste tube in mystery spot… honestly Dean!! I feel so sorry for Sam sometimes, I am a neat freak and that toothpaste WOULD literally drive me up the wall. I laugh whenever I see that, because I can’t help but see Jensen and Jared there, apparently it is the exact opposite in real life. Jensen is a neat freak and Jared is messy *shakes head*

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 17, 2013 @ 1:47 am

  221. Hey T1gerlilly are you also on the opposite side of the time zone?

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 17, 2013 @ 1:54 am

  222. I’m excited about this story because it will really force their issues to the forefront. All the good and bad things Dean’s decision implies about how their relationship is, namely how Dean views himself and Sam. It’s great that Dean didn’t let Sam pass away thinking that there is no hope but I bet Sam will question how much of Dean’s choice was for Sam’s benefit and how much of it was for Dean because what he did was so extreme. Sam was considering some pretty desperate things when trying to save Dean from hell but at least Dean was able to say no.

    tokoloshi, apparently Crowley injected himself with Kevin’s blood.

    I love the bathroom scenes in Mystery Spot! It does make me wonder are attached to the hip if they even brush their teeth at the same time :D Even most kids sleep in their own room but Sam and Dean sleep next to each other, go have breakfast together, sit alongside in the car for hours and even take vacations together. Remember how upset Dean was that Sam went camping alone during their Vegas trip.

    Comment by San — November 17, 2013 @ 2:29 am

  223. I know I said I would let this go, but the lawyer in me keeps wanting to “make my case” (haha) for lack of a better term.

    T1gerlilly – Dean is 26 in the Pilot, and Sam is 21-22, depending on when Dean came to him. Was it directly after that Halloween party? After Thanksgiving? It looks like Sam was already doing law school interviews. I think Sam was doing the standard 4-year college thing. He left at 18. Dean came to get him at 22.

    Tokoloshi – I agree w/you. When I watched the Pilot, I also understood Dean’s comment about Sam not taking his call to mean they weren’t speaking. It was later, when Dean says he hadn’t bothered Sam in two years, when I thought they must have had some type of falling out, which is why they are no longer speaking. I guess the two aren’t mutually exclusive in my mind. They could have during his Freshman, argued, and then stopped speaking.

    That’s how I saw it. Oh, and I shouldn’t have spoken for all fans who weren’t online earlier. I just met I didn’t realize this whole EK error until years later.

    —————-

    Roxi – I am referring to the Internet Movie Database (imdb.com). If you go there and search “Supernatural,” you can find a pretty active message board. I used to post there and on the forums of this board (not this section) on a pretty regular basis. At some point, that board, IMO, became very mean-spirited towards not only Sam but also Jared. I remember comments like, “Padalecki tries, but he just can’t hold his own when with Ackles, Collins, and Beaver” of “Padalecki is the one weak link on this show,” etc.

    I am not saying everyone has to enjoy his acting, so please don’t think that. For me, the Sam bashing combined w/the actor hate was just too much. I had to stop posting on that board b/c everything Sam/Jared did (and does) was harshly critiqued and painted in the worst, most negative light. Even Sam giving Dean the amulet was painted in a bad light. It all became slightly ridiculous to me.

    The other places where I think Sam/Jared bashin is pretty rampant and commonplace is Television Without Pity (twop.com) and All Hell Breaks Loose though I haven’t visited that forum since S5. They straight up HATED Jared and Sam.

    The only other places I frequent or used to frequent, I’ve seen you a couple of times too (Spoilertv.com, the forums on this board, and The Winchester Family Business). I honestly don’t post on TWFB anymore, but I still peruse the comments now and then. I don’t think I’ve see much Dean “bashing” on these sites. To me, there is a difference between being critical of Dean’s choices and bashing him for no reason. I don’t see much bashing, but more criticism of his actions.

    Now, are some upset w/Dean’s choice? Sure. Are some posters OTT or extreme in their dislike of Dean? Sure, but it isn’t everyone. There is not widespread Dean hate, IMO, on those boards. It’s not like IMDb or TWOP where finding a fan that actually likes Sam is rare. The Sam fans on IMDb have pretty much isolated themselves to one post b/c the main posts are so overly critical of everything Sam does. For instance, some speculated that it must have been Zeke that brought Dean breakfast b/c Sam – the selfish, horrible bastard – would never do that. Really? Are they serious? So, when Sam brought Dean food just last year, who orchestrated that? That board is ridiculous!

    I don’t even hate what Dean did to Sam. I thought it was in line w/his character, and that the show made sure the viewers would understand his position. That said, I do believe Sam will be entitled to be angry w/Dean. Unlike some here, I think that’s fine. It’s his body that is being played and violated. As I said before, if he wants to leave to clear his head for a day or two, that’s cool.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 17, 2013 @ 6:43 am

  224. @ tokoloshi #221: Yes, that was an important statement because it set the background for the brothers’ relationship as the series started. All through S1, we saw the brothers getting used to hunting together again, feeling their way through their relationship. Sam was the reluctant hunter and Dean was the committed hunter. Sam re-committed to hunting out of revenge (just like John), but Dean hunted to save other families from what the Winchesters had gone through (Wendigo). Dean was fighting to keep his family together, while Sam had every intention of returning to his life of normal. To ignore that in the early years of the show takes the core of the Winchester story away, and that includes up through S8.

    Just an aside. Dean is no longer hard to live with. His room is spotless, he cooks, he cleans, and he decorates now that the Yale library is his “home.” (I miss the Impala being their home.)

    Comment by Sheri — November 17, 2013 @ 7:03 am

  225. Eh, Dean is together on the surface, but a mess inside. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen the side by side screenshots of the Impala’s trunk when John owned it, vs Dean or Sam. John and Sam’s version of the trunk is almost identical – laid out with military precision, every weapon stored in custom cut foam. Dean, though he insists the Impala be spotless to a passerby, has a trunk where everything is haphazardly thrown in together.
    Maybe a little insight into who they are as well. We know in canon that Sam is a lot like his Dad. Dean – not so much. I sometimes think Dean’s whole life is a case of fake it till you make it – where he’s constantly trying to be something he’s not. Frankly, I think he’s a little too good at it. I don’t think Sam really realizes how damaged Dean really is. Honestly, the only person who regularly sees through the show Dean puts on and calls him on his shit is Cas. It’s a big part of why I love their scenes together – you get to see more than just Robo!Dean making macho for his little bro.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — November 17, 2013 @ 7:22 am

  226. @T1gerlilly
    ” I sometimes think Dean’s whole life is a case of fake it till you make it”
    Good observation. I totally agree. I think that shows through every time he says we’ll figure it out, we always do. Up till now that fly by the seat of your pants has worked for Dean, but somehow I think it is going to bite him in the bottom somewhat meeeeeeep!!!!

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 17, 2013 @ 9:07 am

  227. @ Lisa1: Personally, I don’t think people that dislike Sam’s character, or dislike the actions that Sam has taken over the years, equates to hating Jared. As far as people discussing what they think of Jared’s acting, that is free territory for the business he is in.

    My blood boils every time I read “hate Sam or hate Dean.” It’s a term resorted to when there are no valid arguments, beyond emotions, to discuss justify one’s opinion.

    I, myself, have commented on Jared’s acting in relation to Jensen’s. Jensen is one of the finest actors on TV today, and he doesn’t get industry recognition for that, so I think fans commenting on that is a good thing. Not all of the comments I have made about Jared have been critical either. When I think he has done a good job, I say so, but I don’t feel I have to compliment Jared just because I am giving Jensen a compliment, nor do I feel voicing an opinion about a scene or an overall performance equates to hating a character.

    Also, in being critical of Sam’s character in the past does not negate the desire to see Sam’s character learning and growing. That’s been my biggest complaint about Sam — he just never seemed to have learned from his mistakes and kept on repeating them, and the fans that complain about Sam, I think, identify that and want more for Sam. (Cas is in that repeating mistakes territory, too, and it gets old really fast.)

    Having said that, I will say that I occasionally read TWOP, but never comment there, and I’ve never seen the other two sites that you mention. TWOP, years ago, used to have some insightful commenters, but I don’t find that to be the case anymore. The site has also become very regulated and appears to have kicked off all but a few posters. I do read WFB quite often and comment occasionally, but I don’t find their Sam-love swooning and “poor Sam” whining very insightful. What I find with that site is that no matter what the show does, what the writers write, or who the character is, it’s all very brilliant and wonderful, and that is dishonest.

    @ t1gerlily: I agree with you — Dean is a hot mess, has been so since childhood, and Sam has no clue. I hope the show explores that in this season. If the writers don’t go there, then I hope Dean learns something about why it is important to him, as a person, that Sam loves him for who he is.

    Comment by Sheri — November 17, 2013 @ 9:17 am

  228. Far better news” Timothy Odmoundson is coming! Yeah!
    Love him on Psych. He was pretty cool in Jericho too.

    Comment by roxi — November 17, 2013 @ 12:12 pm

  229. I don’t know him, but I’ve never watched Psych. what role did he play I Jericho?

    He’s going to play Cain, the “retired” demon. I’m still wondering how a demon, a human corrupted soul, retires.

    SPN is sure getting some good actors to take on roles, though. Speaks well of the show’s success.

    Comment by Sheri — November 17, 2013 @ 12:18 pm

  230. Sheri – I agree w/your take on TWFB, but I wouldn’t call it a “Sam love” site; it’s a “Love Everything about Supernatural” site, IMO.

    They love everything about the show. It’s 98% positive about everything and all the characters. I was posting there pretty regularly when the CW boards shut down, but stopped last year. Like many, I had complaints and problems w/Sam’s character arc last year, and the moderator seemed upset w/me stating my displeasure so I quit posting there. I wasn’t banned or anything, but I grew tired of their “happy, happy, joy, joy” ways and belief that all criticism equates to “bashing.” They can keep their love fest. It’s not for me. If they love everything, that’s cool. I just feel differently at this point and needed a place where I could freely air my grievances w/o fear of upsetting the “regulars.”

    As far as this site is concerned, I don’t see much, if any, Jared bashing here so I wasn’t really thinking of anyone here when I made my previous comment. I was thinking about the IMDb boards (which used to be my regular posting site). I and many other bi-bro and Sam fans abandoned the IMDb boards b/c of the rampant Sam/Jared hate.

    The majority of the posters there hate both Jared and Sam. They don’t like Sam and don’t respect Jared as an actor and rarely have anything positive to say about him. As I said, the Jared bashing wouldn’t bother me so much if the Sam bashing wasn’t also present. It’s hard to describe. The atmosphere there is extremely unpleasant for anyone that likes Sam/Jared. It’s a very mean-spirited place where I’ve seen people commenting on Jared’s face, his line delivery, his hair, everything. It’s all hate on Jared/Sam all the time but for the few people that do like him, so I don’t take their criticisms of Jared seriously anymore. They bash every single thing the actor and character does. It’s overkill. So, all the praise for Tamoh’s Zeke and the bashing of Jared’s Zeke, I honestly just see as more irrational Jared/Sam hate. That’s just my take on that site.

    I don’t think anyone has to compliment Jared if they’re praising Jensen. Everyone can think whatever they want about the characters and the actors. I happen to think they are both good actors, but that’s just me. I’m sure others disagree and see Jared as the weakest link in the show, but I don’t share that opinion. I think his acting is fine. I’ve never had a problem w/the acting from either lead. I know many have said Jared has grown as an actor and gotten better, but I can honestly say he’s always been fine to me. I didn’t have a problem w/him in S1; I don’t have a problem w/him now. I think Jensen is a fine actor too. I know many will disagree but I think they are equal in their acting skills, but, again, that’s me. YMMV.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 17, 2013 @ 3:15 pm

  231. Interesting what is said about other sites! I have been to sites where it is extremely obvious they have some sort of relationship or agreement with the CW like getting free tickets to cons to interview certain actors at the ’round table’ if they give a positive spin on the SPN. One ‘positive’ site that is mentioned above I think is beyond ridiculous with their positive spin, it is beginning to be obvious that they have some sort of connection with CW. I also used to post there, but no longer do because the very regular posters only interact with other regular posters and no matter what you say, nobody responds. I was shocked the other day, I posted something I felt was important there, as usual no response from any of the regulars, not even the host writer, well blow me down when one of the regulars says the exact same thing and all the other regular posters are over it like a hot rash!! I have found though that less and less ppl are posting on that site now so I guess posters are getting sick from all the syrup and sugar overload.

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 17, 2013 @ 3:55 pm

  232. @ tokoloshi: That’s funny. I think you’re onto something, because I definitely had the feeling that there was something going on between the administrator and the show…and you’re not the only one that doesn’t get any responses.

    Comment by Sheri — November 17, 2013 @ 6:15 pm

  233. @Lisa1 – really? There can’t be that many people who don’t like Jared’s acting. Personally, I remember thinking in the middle of the season 8 finale “wow. He just earned his paycheck for the entire season.” He was that good. And that’s despite the fact that I couldn’t stand the finale and am generally not an only-bros fan. Plus this season we’ve seen his transitions to and from Zeke, which are so smooth and subtle you don’t even need special effects to know which is which. Not to mention his interpretation of an angel – which hews closer to Cas than any other actor, without caricature, and making Zeke a distinct character in his own right. It’s wonderful.
    But then the only character that regularly gets hate here is Cas. I find that bizarre too, especially since Misha’s acting has been terrific this season. I don’t feel like I can say anything positive about him here without people coming out of the woodwork to say things that are not rational critiques, but instead just hateful insults to Misha, Cas, or both.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — November 18, 2013 @ 8:42 pm

  234. T1gerlilly – I think Misha is a good actor. I have no problem with any of the acting on this show with the exception of GP. I thought she was pretty bad, but everyone else has been fine. And that includes – for me – BK’s Dean, the girl who played Cassie in Route 666, and KC’s Ruby. They were all fine to me.

    Yeah, those people on IMDb have hated JP’s Zeke. They hated his Lucifer. They hated his performance in Sacrifice. They pretty much hate everything he does. I don’t even regularly check out that board anymore but whenever I do, it’s always the same.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 19, 2013 @ 4:28 am

  235. well thank god I do not go to the IMDB because I will tell them to all go to hell and they will for saying how bad jared acting is well. jensen did not have the No.1 movie in the usa in 09 with 40 mill, And Jensen’s movies goes to dvd and MBV3D just sucked HA HA! can I say that with out getting bashed of it yes I will get crap for that but thats the way I feel and it sad I love both of the guys acting the same I seen MBV3D and did like it once and hear is another thing Jared has done more movies then Jensen ever did so what is so wrong with that. and really do not get me started with the SPN crap that is going on right now I am just getting sick of it right now so I do not want to say anything.

    Comment by kerinda h — November 29, 2013 @ 2:15 pm

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