It’s been a while since we had a good old fashioned non-silly monster of the week episode.
However,the clip raises two continuity issues
1. The episode where Sam and Dean hunted a rougarou, they had never heard of it
2. How on Earth does a phone number from when Dean was a teen still work, after all their legal troubles? It would have been way too easy to trace them if they had stuck to the same number for so long.
Yeah, this isn’t the first time they’ve retconned the knowledge of monsters. Like in the end of season 1, Sam and Dean thought Meg was the demon, and were surprised to hear Bobby say she was just a possessed girl. A couple of seasons later, they’re talking about dad exorcising demons and saving innocents.
And zombies went from having to be nailed into their grave beds in Season 2 to being shot in the head in season 5.
I hate when they don’t bother to check their own canon.
I got the impression that Dean was expecting the call…so he’d already given out the current cell #.
What bugged me more was that he’d been gone for months and Sam seemed to just accept it at the time…? Hopefully we’ll get more illumination in
The pix of young Dean do not look like him…but then perhaps the actor can convey “Deanishness” as it were.
Young John did not look particularly like JDM but he was believable.
I just hope we see Dean’s soul through the young actor’s eyes….surely the casting takes that into account?
@4. Yes, that was strange. From what I understood, it seemed like Sam thought he was ‘lost on a hunt’ for a longish period, and just accepted it. That doesn’t seem right, even though he must have been twelve. Maybe he couldn’t do anything about it at the time, but Sam’s memory of it seemed totally unconcerned. Maybe I got that wrong. I hope we know more in the episode.
It did seem like he was expecting the call, so the phone thing didn’t bother me.
@ #2: Yeah, who can forget the “long pig”, the word of the day (S4). The brothers never heard of a rougarou, and Dean thought it was made up.
But this is an Adam Glass episode, so that doesn’t surprise me. He usually does a decent enough job writing the brothers, though, and it won’t be a support character episode. I’m hoping for a good old-fashioned, simple, ghost-hunting episode with some insight into the brothers past.
I’m starting to wonder too, what these writers are doing to Sam’s intelligence. Not only by now should he be painfully aware that Dean’s lying to him, because Dean’s lying is getting more and more obvious, but also, he’s actually surprised that Dean was a thief? Really?Hasn’t about 85% of Dean’s life as a hunter (as well as Sam’s)by necessity, been comprised of stealing and con artistry?
But other than that, it looks like this may finally be a decent episode, one that, despite being Dean-centric will also be about both brothers together and their relationship, and old fashioned ghost story, and perhaps even a new, sad insight on the boy’s upbringing. Fingers crossed.
That was a nice satisfying clip that felt long. More of these in the future!
Definitely shady that John wanted Dean to lie to Sam. Makes me think that Dean was covering for his bad parenting. It confuses me too that apparently Sam hadn’t been freaking out that Dean had been lost on a hunt for _a couple of months_.
I loved this clip-looking forward to this episode.
Just a interesting thing you guys might want to take a look at. There are videos out of palm readings for Jensen and Jared.Very interesting.
The main interesting thing for Jared was that next year he has to watch out for something that could be bad for him. Vague I know but interesting.
There was a couple of things for Jensen. One we already know-that he is a big romantic/lover. But the other won was that he has been used and abused in his life and that he is nieve when it comes to his work but that he is learning to
correct the that. I thought right away that Jensen really doesn’t know how much damage Misha Collins has caused Jensen. But he is starting to figure it out and reign in Misha. The palm reader also stated that Jensen will not be acting in 5 to 7 years but will be doing something else. He mentioned maybe producing or directing or writing.
cool stuff. The palm reader seemed very interested in Jared though.Check both out!!
NO actually I dislike BOTH Misha and his character Cas as separate entities. Nice try though. You don’ see a problem with Misha dragging Jensen into the Destiel situation?? Or that by feeding the Destiel group even now when there was a big frenzy about Destiel not existing in the real SPN universe by a producer and a director and Jensen being in hot water with that group isn’t a problem for Jensen? right?? Darlin you need to open your eyes.
Fact is Jaylen-Misha has been riding on Jensen’s wave almost since day one. Using him and his popularity with the fans -well the popularity he had back in s4 before Misha ruined a lot of that popularity because of the Destiel crap. But I do think Jensen is wising up -and the Destiel crap is getting shut down. Not by Misha because gawd-he can’t he has built his career on Destiel. So if he states the truth that there is no Destiel-nothing romantic between Dean and Cas that would be devastating to him and his career after he fed it for so long. There hasn’t been one GLBT reference at all this season-nor has there been dialogue either. TPTB know its a problem.
Just because someone dislikes someone does not automatically mean it has to do with their dislike for the character and nothing else. Let’s be honest, it shouldn’t be shocking that Misha’s personality and antics piss some people off. I honestly don’t feel like he cares about the show, his costars or the TPTB at all. He seems to only care about himself and his popularity.
Even after the powers that be get bullied and harassed off twitter by Destiel shippers demanding their ship be made canon and accusing them of queer baiting, Misha just encourages it over and over not even bothering asking his fans to be kind to the writers. I don’t know if Jensen is aware of what Misha is doing but I believe Jensen would be pissed. Jensen takes this show very seriously. He loves his character and the show. Misha treats this show like a joke.
Destiel obviously would benefit Misha. That’s why he supports it so much. But it’s gotten to the point where his fans are so rabid they bully his bosses and he still contradicts what they say. He’s lucky to still have his job if you ask me.
“Nuts” sums it up. I’m just astounded by the delusional little world some people in this forum live in. They hate Cas and hate Misha just because he portrays Cas and make up twisted, inaccurate, unfair and just plain wrong statements to justify their irrational hatred. Fortunately, this is the one and only forum these crackpots are allowed to congregate because it’s unmoderated and they can make up whatever they want and spew whatever venom they choke up.
Fact is Misha and Castiel have been enormously popular in their own right since day one and remain so. Most Castiel fans are not interested in Destiel or care one way or the other. Most Cas fans think Cas would be better off with his own story apart from Dean who just drags the character down. Misha is open to the Destiel aspect when talking to fans who bring it up because he cares about the fans of the show and is empathetic to the fans who do like the Destiel aspect they like to imagine and he doesn’t want to hurt people or crush their hopes for the show. It’s just ridiculous to think Destiel has any effect on Misha’s career one way or the other and to say he’s built his career on it has no basis in fact. It’s a fringe corner of fans who care about this and an inconsequential aspect of his character over the seasons. Most Misha fans are impressed by his charity work and his acting talent. To suggest someone who devotes so much of his time to charity and cares so much for the fans of this show is only interested in himself is absurd.
When I read the comments about Misha here it’s so obvious it’s hatred just to hate. And it’s all base on the perceived notion of Cas taking away precious seconds of Sam and Dean glued at the hip.
If we bother you then leave. No need to name call. And for the record, I don’t LIKE being annoyed by ANYONE. If Misha were more like Jared and Jensen and wasn’t always looking for attention or egging on Destiel shippers I wouldn’t mind him at all. My dislike for him has to do with everything he SAYS. He is responsible for his own mouth. Of course he cares for the fans, they’re the reason he has a job at all. Him still being on this show is due to his popularity so obviously he’s going to kiss their ass.
He doesn’t take away precious moments from Sam and Dean. His parts are easy to avoid and fast forward through (at least the handful of episodes he’s even in).
Actually Jaylin I wouldn’t have any problem with Misha if he would have approached the Destiel thing in this way- Yea Cas loves Dean-he finds him very attractive but cas knows Dean is into women so its something cas knows won’t happen-but he can dream”. That way Misha wouldn’t have destroyed a character Jensen has played for 9 years and the story would be on Misha. With the way Misha approached it -expectations were raised that Jensen HAD to think the same way as Misha. That’s why I can’t stand Misha. He was thoughtless and selfish. And by the way-just because someone does charity work doesn’t me you can excuse the bad stuff they do.
I would also think better of Misha if he had Jensen’s back. Like in this recent uproar-say Jensen is NOT Homophobic -he is a good guy-I was wrong in defining Jensens character the way I did. I should have respected him and his character. And Guy Bee and that producer guy are correct-Cas and Dean are not romantically involved nor will they ever be because Dean is straight”. But noooooo Misha doesn’t address the Jensen deal at all. He lets the his fans call him all kinds of names. And he practically BLAMES the producer and Guy Bee for not understanding his fans. Egotistical bast*ard that he is.
A REAL friend, a REAL brother would have your back. Like Jared has Jensens back and Jensen has Jared’s back. And we have seen both of them stand up for each other and defend each other against fans. Misha-nope-he is all about himself.
Back to this clip – Tammy, I completely agree that it won’t make sense if Sam doesn’t mention how worried he was during that time. I think telling Sam Dean was in a boys home or juvenile center would have been less worrisome and concerning than telling him Dean was lost on a hunt. I assume Sam was worried out of his mind but you never know with this show!
Back to this clip – Tammy, I completely agree that it won’t make sense if Sam doesn’t mention how worried he was during that time. I think telling Sam Dean was in a boys home or juvenile center would have been less worrisome and concerning than telling him Dean was lost on a hunt. I assume Sam was worried out of his mind but you never know with this show!
I agree, Lisa1. This clip made it seem like Sam was having a good old time at Bobby’s and not the least concerned about a missing Dean. I hope the show doesn’t do that, and I am hoping that they don’t turn Dean into a Sam-character, wanting ‘normal’ all the time he was growing up.
I’m a little concerned, too, because past canon said Dean made his first kill at 16, and he is 16 in this clip. I hope there’s not more canon trashing coming.
Sheri – I have the same worries. As you said, from the clip, it seems like Sam was having a jolly good ole time with “Uncle Bobby” while Dean was LOST (i.e, missing) on a hunt??!!?!?! Really?!?!? I hope they don’t further trash Sam w/that nonsense. It doesn’t even make sense. Sam would be worried out of his mind, not just chillin’ w/Bobby.
I hear you about the first kill thing too. Sadly, it looks like canon has already been trashed b/c Sam says Dean got lost on a rugaru hunt, right? Well, back in 4.04, neither brother had ever heard of a rugaru before!
Hey, maybe Sam thought Dean was lost in the Grand Canyon w/John’s father from ITB. Haha
@ lisa1: That Grand Canyon thing drives me up a wall, as does the rougarou thing. One would think that if fans can remember something like that from 5 years ago, someone connected with the show could. Where is Kevin Parks, the supposed encyclopedia of all things SPN? Where are the writers’ assistants? Where is Robert Singer? The stupid writer could have put in any other monster that we’ve seen on the show — one word — and it wouldn’t have been an issue. How about a witch? Dean hates witches, and that would have been credible.
Yeah, I can buy more John trashing, but it appears there might be some Sam trashing coming. Let’s hope that doesn’t happen.
And can I just say that I am about sick of Dean being turned into an Angelina Jolie and adopting every person he meets on the planet as a family member. I didn’t like the picture of Sonny being labeled another “surrogate father.”
I hope they explain why John would leave Dean in a boys’ home in the first place. I thought they were nomadic all through Sam’s childhood? John Winchester leaving his eldest son in a home because the Law told him to? That just strikes me as unbelievable.
@19- So Dean drags Cas down huh? Really?
Well, to me and many others, sometimes Cas drags DEAN down.
You’re right about one thing: Cas/Misha fans don’t give a damn about Dean/Jensen, nor do most of the Destiel fans I’ve seen. I really think a lot of you would rather Dean be bumped off the show to make . SPN seems to think that Cas deserves his own story over Dean, one of the two leads since day one, getting one.SPN is NOT about Cas,it’s about the Winchesters.
And no, your insulting comments won’t work on me, since I don’t hate Cas or Misha.
It’s implied that there’s more to the reason why Dean was stealing food. Perhaps he wasn’t even stealing food, maybe that was just a cover (another lie Dean?). If Dean did make his first kill at this age, then maybe it had something to do with what goes on in this episode.
For those who were afraid that this woman, Robin, would be a romp in bed for Dean as an adult, it doesn’t look like anything remotely romantic will happen here. It looks more like a Sam/Amy situation, where they had an innocent teen crush on eachother, and just happened to come across eachother again as adults.
@ G-dawg #29: I wondered about that, too. I know the show retconned Bobby into an uncle and then a surrogate father, but Sam didn’t seem to be all that well acquainted with him in Devil’s Trap for having spent a two-month stretch with him at the age of 12. Maybe John leaving Dean there is what caused the split between John and Bobby. I kind of hope it is, as I’d like that split-up explained.
Sheri, I couldn’t agree more w/you! I find it very frustrating that Dean is adopting any and everyone he meets lately as “family.” It diminishes the meaning of “family” for Dean, IMO. Why would Sonny be a surrogate dad when John is alive and well? As you said, I think we were in for some John AND Sam unnecessary bashing.
If they had someone on staff to keep up w/the canon, I guess that person has been fired! They can’t seem to keep up with even the basics anymore.
I hope this whole thing is explained well. As G-Dawg said, it is surprising that John would just leave Dean in the group home and ditch Sam w/Bobby. It just feels weird, but I guess we’ll see how it plays out.
I really wish the show would take more care of canon consistency, and keep the characters well rounded and in character. As Sherri said, Why can’t they take more care with that, how difficult can it be? Isn’t that their job?
It would be ridiculous if all the explanation we get is what we see in the clip, but we never know with the show. Even if we ignore the rougaru thing (I find such canon trashing a LITTLE bit easier to ignore than the character bashing. That really p*es me off, as it’s the boys’ story.), are we to think that a 12 year old Sam just thought “oh well, my brother is lost on a hunt, maybe a monster killed/ate/is torturing him. But I’ll just stay at Uncle Bobby’s and chill.” And he never asked for more explanation in all this time???
And yes, I can deal with John trashing too, but not Dean and Sam anymore. As if the writers care
But okay. Apart from my getting worked up about the (seeming) trashing, the clip seems interesting. Looking forward to it.
Hmm. Maybe John didn’t know he was there? Is that a possibility? Nah. I guess it’s possible for a day or two, but not two months. Oh well, we’ll see what happened, I guess.
Rewatched the clip and I don’t think we’re getting more about that particular aspect. I hope I’m wrong.
I like the interaction and the connection between the boys in the clip, but not the stuff spoken of above. And I loved Dean’s “And everybody is okay with….”, and Sam’s confused reaction “I am everybody..”. Made me laugh.
reguarding the rougaru -this doesn’t have to be canon bashing. In s4-they learned what a rougaru was. Now 5 years later-they are looking back and they know NOW that what their Dad was hunting was a rougaru. So Dean says -”remember when Dad was hunting that Rougaru?”. Because they know NOW that that is what he was hunting. Maybe back then they didn’t. But they do NOW. Its a stretch-but I am going with it to keep my Canon straight head happy!! lol
Why is Sonny a Surrogate father? In one of the pictures Dean is sitting on the couch with cuffs on and Sonny is taking them off. I find that interesting because if Dean was arrested why would the cops leave the cuffs on him?? I think Sonny breaks Dean out of Jail. Maybe Dean makes his first kill on the thing that attacks Sonny. I can’t remember if Dean has ever said what his first kill was-but a werewolf turns to human after they die so maybe a cop sees a dead guy and Dean is holding the gun. (werewolf attacked Sonny). They arrest him and Sonny rescues him and has him stay on his farm until John comes. hmmmmm plausible.
As for Sam-I have no clue why they wouldn’t have told Sam. Unless because of the way he and John fought Dean felt abandoned and John felt guilty and John didn’t want Sam to find out how he left Dean for months. hmmm. don’t know.
I, too, hope that they don’t go too crazy with the character of John. During the earlier seasons it was interesting to try to figure out the actual truth about John and the boys’ childhood since Sam and Dean had such different opinions. Usually, truth is somewhere in the middle but if they make John to be emotionally abusive and Dean / Sonny somehow acknowledge it then Dean’s hero worshiph in his late twenties will seem kind of odd.
… So. I pick up this crossbow. And I hit that ugly sucker with a silver-tipped arrow right in his heart. Sammy’s waiting in the car, and uh, me and my dad take the thing into the woods, burn it to a crisp. I’m sitting there and looking into the fire, and I’m thinking to myself, I’m sixteen years old. Most kids my age are worried about pimples, prom dates. I’m seeing things that they’ll never even know. Never even dream of. So right then, I just sort of –
Embraced the life?
Now, they could work that conversation in without trashing canon; say, if Dean wanted normal, but after getting out of the juvvie home, John takes him out on a hunt and Dean comes to the realization hunting is what he wants to do.
There’s great potential for this episode, and I’m looking forward to it; especially after the Charlie and Cas one. I hope Glass does a good job with it.
@Sheri-lol yea I know but I gave it a try. But technically in the dialogue you wrote Dean doesn’t say it was his FIRST KILL-he says He embraced the life. So it sounds to me he was killing monsters before this. He just wasn’t sure he wanted to be a Hunter until the vamp kill at 16. So maybe the Sonny thing is before the vamp kill?
Do you remember the scene with JO in season 2 when she is flipping her knife around?? She asked Dean what his first memory of his Dad was. I can’t remember the exact age-I know some of you will-but he was young. Dean said he shot the bullseye 6 times in a row -Well I can’t remember exactly but he was accurate. Jo said something to the effect ” Your dad must have been very proud of you”. Dean didn’t say yea-infact he kinda looked like “no-he was indifferent” or “he never said”. I just don’t think Dean ever got the praise from John. Up until in the hospital before John died. Only then did he say “Dean I am proud of you”. It was so foreign to Dean that he questioned if John was really John. So I am thinking that Sonny showed Dean some fatherly advise, fatherly affection and praise. Thus why we get “surrogate father”.
@38-I hardly think that John would have been fighting with his then 12 year old son. I should think that all that rebellion stuff would come in later teen years.
We’ve seen that growing up without a mother and having your father run off and leave you for weeks at a time was hard on Sam. I’m hoping we get to see how all that affected Dean.
I also find it hard to believe that even a young Sam would be that nonchalant thinking his beloved big brother was lost and possibly dead .
I’m not sure what bashing there could possibly be towards Sam in such an episode, so I’m not understand that angle from some of you. I can see a potential for John bashing though. I still maintain that Sam was John’s favorite, Dean was well aware of that, and we may see how that weighed on young Dean’s psyche. That and never being able to be a child or a regular adolescent.
I am so looking forward to this episode. There are so many possibilities that could really be striking and moving in this episode for both brothers actually. I hope they don’t throw in something that is ridiculous, political correctness or canon trashing that it ruins the episode.
Roxi-do you have kids??? Did you read Caitlins home life on the other thread? Kids at 11 and 12 start to develop their own little psyche’s. Girls and boys both start having hormones working. Kids at this age start to think that they know things that they really don’t know but they are adamant that they know. NOt as much as teens but at this young age they do get rebellious especially if the home life isn’t perfect. So I really can see Sam and John arguing at this time.-Sam being 12.
The Sam bashing is likely to come if 12-yr old Sam is portrayed as giving less than a crap (haha) about his brother who is allegedly missing and lost on a hunt. I mean . . . it’s already started in some places. Some people have already started saying, “Well, of course, Sam didn’t care about Dean. He’s a selfish brat.”
I can only hope John and Sam aren’t further trashed in this episode. It looks good, but hopefully, they’re presented in a good light too. We’ll see!
Technically, this may not have been Dean’s first kill, but Gordon’s story goes into how his first kill was the vampire that turned his sister:
And I found that fang – it was my first kill.
From that, I think the subtext is that the two of them were talking about their first kills.
We find out later from the Bobby/Dean conversation in Two Minutes to Midnight that Sam started hunting when he was twelve. I’m assuming that when Dean started hunting, Sam was drug along or, most likely, put onto the research end of it (The Girl Next Door).
I heartily agree with you that John never gave Dean any praise – just grief – and I agree with roxi that Sam was John’s favorite. I think Bobby showed more caring for Dean than John did, and even he gave Dean the “suck it up, Princess” speeches several times.
roxi: I can assure you that at 12 that girls go into their bedrooms pleasant young people and belligerent monsters emerge the next morning. I doubt that boys are much different. The history of the show has always been that Sam and John argued constantly and bitterly. That doesn’t just happen, but it starts out as moody and evolves to heated arguments.
I don’t think Sam got near the brunt of growing up motherless and having an absent father as Dean did. Dean was Sam’s mother, father, and brother, and Dean had no one, and that included John. Dean had the memories of how it used to be while he was taking care of Sam, but Sam learned as he grew and observed the “normal” people around him that his life was different, and he wanted what they had — a home, a regular family, activities that others enjoyed.
Dean’s way of handling his loss and miserable childhood was to rationalize that John was a super hero because he saved people from what he had gone through.
@ roxi: A normal parent wouldn’t, but John Winchester would. That’s the reason he was given the backstory of being a Marine and a drill sergeant, more than a father, to the boys. He expected complete and total obedience. Dean gave it to him and Sam didn’t.
“He expected complete and total obedience. Dean gave it to him and Sam didn’t.”
Hence the arguments and tension btw Sam and John.
I don’t think John had a “favorite” child. I. think he loved both his sons equally. I do think both boys thought the other was John’s favorite, which is a testament to John’s bad parenting.
I do wonder why some believe Sam was John’s favorite though. If Sam was his favorite, why did he tell Dean to kill Sam? Why did he not speak to Sam for 4 years? Why did he not say good-bye to Sam when he knew he was going off to die? Did they even hug when they first reunited after 4 years? I don’t think John would have hesitated to kill Sam.
I’m not saying Jhon was any better w/Dean. Who leaves a 9-yr old alone in a hotel room w/his 4-5 year old brother for a few weeks? Who never has a kind word for his son so that when he does say something nice, the son immediately knows the father is possessed? Who doesn’t try to come home for Christmas and leaves two small children alone by themselves?
John was a pretty crappy dad! But I do believe he loved both his sons equally; he didn’t love one more than the other. He didn’t treat either well. The only one he treated decent was Adam.
I don’t know that Sam was John’s favorite. I tend to think that the Yellow Eyed Demon was lying to mess with Dean’s head. Dean may have thought so because Sam required a lot of attention since he was rebelling against the hunting life.
For what it’s worth, Lisa1, John gave Sam a big hug in Shadow.
@ Lisa1: The show supports your argument completely. It also supports the mythical “brothers bond,” which I have never bought into, but almost all of fandom does.
To me, the show started with Sam having walked away from John, Dean, and his entire past. S1 showed the brothers learning to be together again and hunt again, but Sam never gave up on going back to his ‘normal’ life. That isn’t to say that Dean and he could have remained in contact if Sam had, but it also doesn’t support that they ever had an unusually close bond.
Dean, of course, does have the need to keep his family close, and Sam was his sole family until Dean started adopting and building various versions of family. But even as late as last season, Sam was happy with Dean gone and having a life with the bitchy vet.
I know this is a controversial viewpoint and one that only a very few fans hold, but that’s the way I view the brother bond. I wished they did have the irrational co-dependency the show sells, but the stories have never supported it…only on Dean’s side, IMO.
I call bs they Dean mentions a Rugaru in the clip but they had no idea what a Rugaru was up until season 4 the same happened in Season 8 Dean mentions he hellped Victor that he hunted a Rugaru with him in the past but there is no time stamp this could have been the time when Sam was in the pit Dean could have don odd jobs now and again but still my point is still valid
Comment by Ryan Davies — November 18, 2013 @ 12:30 am
I don’t think John had a favorite but I can understand if Dean felt that secretly John liked Sam more because the whole “keep your brother safe”, “watch out for Sammy” etc. in a way imply that Sam is the most important thing. Why are so many convinced that Sam was the favorite?
This episode makes me hope they take advantage of having young Colin Ford. Originally, I was hesitant to watch 7.03 but the flashbacks turned out to be better than the regular scenes!
Why? Because it seemed very clear to me and a lot of fans that the show portrayed it that way, in season 1. John butted heads with Sam because he loved/worried about him the most. He also let Sam do some normal kid things, like play soccer, while at the same time denying Dean any such opportunities to be a normal kid. Dean’s SOLE purpose was to take care of Sam and be obedient to John. Remember how John bitched at Bobby for taking Dean to the park and having a game of catch? As for what YED told Dean, yes demons lie but the show told us that they also tell the truth sometimes to mess with your head. I also felt Casey was telling Dean the truth.
But as I said, when John gave up his life and soul to save Dean, it instantly made up for everything and he is forgiven. But the damage to Dean emotionally and psychologically would have already been done.
I believe Colin Ford is too old now to play young Sammy. They really got lucky with him. For young Dean, they can’t even find a green eyed, blond/light brown haired kid. (Sorry Sheri, but Jensen’s hair is NOT reddish at all. It was blond as a teenager and is dark blond/light brown now).
As usual, things come down to perspective because there was absolutely nothing in the show to prove to me that John loved Sam more than Dean, or that Sam was his favorite child.
Sam didn’t hear from his dad for four years. Yes, Sam could have contacted John but when a parent DISOWNS you and tells you to never come back home, then I think any reconciliation should be made by the PARENT no matter the age of that parent’s child. Sam constantly fought with John all throughout his pre-teen and teen years. He didn’t even think John would be happy to see him. If he was the favored child, I don’t think he’d feel that way.
Was John overly concerned and worried about Sam? Sure, but that’s because he learned early on that Sam was a “special child.” John played everything close to the vest so I’m sure he knew about the YED before he told his kids! He wanted Sam close in case he became “evil.” I don’t think it was because he had some special love for Sam that he didn’t have with Sam. John SOLD HIS SOUL for Dean so surely he loved him a great deal. He also laid a tremendous burden on him but you know John!
I see no evidence that John loved Sam best. For what’s worth, I believe each brother thought John favored the other.
Sheri – I am definitely one of the fans who believes in the brotherly bond. I don’t think it’s mythical; it’s there. I feel the show has supported that through various episodes like Faith, MS, FB, AVSC, IKWYDLS, etc.
I do think the bond was expanded upon and built on as the show progressed. No one would think the brothers had an incredible, unbreakable bond in the Pilot but by the end of the season 2, I had definitely fallen in love with their relationship and how close they were.
And not to get into the debate we had in the last thread, but I find it much more believable that Sam and Dean did have some contact while Sam was in college than thinking they never spoke after that night. I know we disagree on whether the dialogue supports this, but it also makes sense – to me at least – given how close we’ve been led to believe the brothers were. I can’t imagine they never spoke again after that night, and thankfully, for me, the dialogue supports MY thoughts on that.
I don’t think Sam has been given as many flashy opportunities to show his devotion to Dean as Dean has been given, but that doesn’t mean – to me – he isn’t as devoted. I think it has been reflected but in less flashy ways. I believed Sam at the end of S2 when he said he would do anything to save Dean. And we see his desperation all throughtout S3.
Sera set up Sam to save Dean in S8, but Carver trashed that plan b/c it was too predictable. Kripke set up Sam to go evil in an attempt to save Dean butthe writer’s strike ruined it. The opportunities were there but weren’t explored so Sam gets the label of not caring as much about Dean as Dean cares about him. I don’t believe that to be true.
What can I tell you Lisa? I see it opposite from you. Yes John and Sam didn’t speak for 4 years. That doesn’t tell me that John didn’t have a special love for him. Sometimes it’s the one you love most that you have to distance yourself from because it’s too hard, there’s too much tension. It looked to me like the scenes they had together, the way they were written and acted, served to emphasize John’s special feeling towards Sam. You didn’t see those kinds of scenes between he and Dean, not until the very end. Even the ones where they were fighting brimmed with the tension that comes from being at odds with the one you love the most. Yes he did sell his soul for Dean, but I’m sure he would have done the same for Sam. And he didn’t tell Dean he might have to kill Sam because he didn’t love Sam, but because he feared he may become demonic. That tells me he loved him so much that he’d rather Sam be dead than turn into that.
So I guess we will have to continue to disagree on this.
@Sherri. OK, I’m a great believer in the brothers’ bond, and their codependency (Dean wins in that department though)! Yes, Sam has made a few selfish decisions, but we have also seen, both times when Dean ‘died’ (seasons 3 & 4), he was a complete mess. And desperate to bring his brother back, to the point he was willing to go to hell in his place. To me, that speaks pretty much of a great love/bond. I don’t even count season 8 as it was complete BS to me, there’s no way Sam would have behaved like that. We, the audience, or Dean, do not see Sam’s side as often or as apparently as we see Dean’s devotion, but it has been proved time and again. Just my opinion.
I agree that Dean had a really bad childhood. No, he never had a childhood, apart from the first four years of his life. It was completely unfair of John to put so much responsibility and pressure on Dean, and Sam had it much easier. I basically agree with what Lisa1 wrote, so wont repeat here. But I don’t think John was shown to have a favorite, he interacted with them differently, and they reacted differently due to their personalities.
@roxi. I did want to add, from personal experience, that one is often more lenient and gentler with younger children than with the eldest. Perhaps one hasn’t learnt from experience and has higher expectations, whatever. But it is often that younger siblings get away with much more than their older ones. So to me, it isn’t so clear that Sam was the favorite child, just that John was a shitty parent and the dysfunctional family dynamics continued throughout their lives.
So many ways to view the show… the perspectives and opinions. That’s what makes it so much fun.
Behind the scenes information aside, they have to have had contact to make Dean’s words match up with Sam’s time at school. He would have to be in his 4th year to be looking at law school. So in my mind there was contact. I like to a think Dean needed Sam’s help on a case since Dean said I haven’t asked you for a thing in two years. Maybe doing a little research in the college library.
As far as favorites. Family dynamics are so complex especially this family. Sam probably did get more of John’s attention although it doesn’t seem like John was gone an awful alot and nobody got a lot of attention but I’m not sure that makes him the favorite despite what Yellow Eyes said. Yellow Eyes being such a credible source and all.
Going back to the rebellious child thing. I have two kids. One is easy. One is not. Who do you think gets most of my attention and concern. Not because he is my favorite but because I am scared to death he is going to do something stupid. Honestly, I am looking forward to him growing up and being responsible for his own self. He’s exhausting. And sometimes my easy one does throw out the he’s your favorite card. But if I am being totally honest, my favorite kid to hang out with (not love more) is my easy one. You have to be careful not to take the easy kids for granted like John realized– unfortunately at the end of his life.
I guess we can all agree that John was a pretty lousy parent.
I guess I will give him some defense though because I myself wasn’t the best mother. Not because I didn’t try or that I didn’t love my daughter enough, on the contrary, I loved her and STILL love her more than anything. But love itself, despite the bleeding heart prose we’ve all heard, it not enough. You also need patience and maturity, and I didn’t have that at 18 and unwed, unemployed, uneducated, and broke.
I think John did what he could, but he was so obsessed with finding the demon that killed his wife. The show also insinuated that guilt may have also played a part. The implication is that John and Mary’s marriage was less than perfect, him having left Mary on at least one occasion with two small children at home no less. So after she died, that fact came back to haunt him, just as the fact that he had been a less than loving father to Dean came back to haunt him as Dean lay dying. John, as well as the other Winchester men, had many personality flaws.
But then too, just as all the other Winchester men ( including young John Matt Cohen) he was gorgeous! What a genetically blessed family! Even Mary was beautiful! It’s as if ok, their lives are going to be horrible and filled with tragedy, so at least, let them all be insanely attractive! LOL.
I don’t think the soccer thing was that cut and dry. In episode Bugs, Dean says: “Well, maybe he (John) had to raise his voice, but sometimes, you were out of line” and Sam says to that: “Right, like when I said I’d rather play soccer than learn bowhunting”. Sam was also amazed that dad had kept his soccer trophy. I wouldn’t be surprised if Dean had tried to convince himself and his dad that he didn’t care that much about playing baseball etc. and is happy to practise just hunting skills.
I agree that they both probably felt the other one was the more favoured one. In the same episode, a father drags his son away and yells to him. Sam tells Dean how it reminds him of their dad. Dean says that dad never treated them like that. Sam goes: “Well, Dad never treated you like that. You were perfect —”.
Tammy, yes in a way Sam had it easier because so much responsibility was put on Dean’s shoulders but at the same time I feel like Sam’s personality was being squashed. Dean could at least thrive in some areas (to this day he loves to hunt) and Dean could feel like his dad was his role model whereas Sam didn’t want to be anything like his dad. No one had asked Sam whether he wanted to go into the family business, he felt no one ever told him anything (A Very Supernatural Christmas) etc.
Of course it doesn’t negate how super hard things were for Dean and what long-lasting consequences John’s parenting had on him, like his low self-esteem, feeling like he has failed at everything if something happens to Sam etc. Taking so much of responsibility of (raising) another human being when he was just a child himself is definitely messed up especially because Dean felt that _he_ was the one who really looked after Sammy.
PS. roxi: It’s funny how I sometimes feel like Dean and Mary could really be related! Something in the eyes, the tenderness they share in their scenes (good job actors).
Roxi – Yes, we will have to continue to agree to disagree
I honestly never saw anything that would indicate John cared more about Sam than Dean or that he loved Sam more than Dean or that he even had a “special love” for Sam. As I said, I think he was more cautious and concerned about Sam, but that was b/c he thought Sam was destined to become evil, not b/c he loved Sam more . . . at least not in my opinion.
And unlike Dean, I don’t think John would have hesitated to kill Sam if Sam had “gone evil.” John would have been able to do it and would have seen it as the right thing to do. I don’t see him fighting to “save” Sam like Dean did so it’s hard for me to see Sam as his “favorite.” If he had one, which I don’t believe he did, I would say it was Dean who shared his interests, goals, and desires. It was probably pleasant being around Dean in comparison to Sam. I don’t have children but what Inky said makes sense to me.
But we all see it differently, which is okay!
Tammy & Inky, I couldn’t agree w/you both.
Tammy, I agree that the show has proven – at least to me – that Sam is just as devoted to Dean as Dean is to him. I also discount the OOC behavior of Sam in S8. When the actor (Jared) and the writer (Carver) admit to Sam being OOC – Carver said he wanted to do something different w/Sam b/c everyone knew the story of Sam “looking” – then I just discount it as OOC nonsense and a failed experiment.
And Inky, I agree w/your take on Dean’s dialogue in the Pilot. He doesn’t say, “I haven’t bothered you since you left.” He says, “I haven’t bothered you in almost two years,” which to me indicates they had contact after Sam went to school. Sam was in his 4th year at school, so they at least had contact during his freshman year. That’s the only way I can interpret that dialogue, and it’s the only thing that makes sense to me.
But I tend to think the YED was playing into Dean’s many insecurities and low self-esteem issues. I don’t think he was telling the truth in that instance. He was saying that to hurt Dean. Didn’t Dean make some smart*** comments about the YED’s kids? And isn’t that when the YED started taunting him?
Anyway . . . not to belabor the point. I don’t think John had a favorite child. He treated Adam better than both Sam and Dean.
@66 Roxi the best laid plans eh! totally agree with the maturity and patience thing. Have an 18 year old daughter with special needs so I hear you. But I still think that poor old John wins the crappy parenting prize
Tammy & Roxi, I think that both Sam and Dean do not know who they are without each other to be honest. There lack of independence and time to explore during identity formation growing up will always scar their sense of self, which is why they make the decisions they do, the most recent Dean decision as a case in point. This is why it is so heartbreaking when posters call Dean a dick. It is not like either brother can help themselves! it is part of who they are
Comment by tokoloshi — November 18, 2013 @ 10:51 am
I think if Jeffrey Dean Morgan would have been more available they wouldn’t have added so many things that made John look super bad. Jeffrey Dean Morgan was able to add a human quality to a character that on paper is very harsh (plus he had that charismatic charm thing going on )
Sure from the get go it was clear that something wasn’t right in that household but I do think that the characterization of John has changed over the seasons to the worse. In season 1 episode Nightmare Sam says: “We’re lucky we had Dad —little more tequila and a little less demon hunting and we woulda had Max’s childhood”. In 7.03 Amy tells Sam how her mother has a temper and Sam says: “My dad does, too. You don’t want to see him when he’s drinking”. The tone seems to have changed.
Actually, I did read somewhere that JDM was upset with some of the John-bashing that started around late season 4. He didn’t say anything about not wanting to do the role anymore, but he wasn’t happy with what little he’d heard about it.
@ inky #70: Adam was born in Sept 1990, making him seven years younger than Sam and about 19 in Jump the Shark when we first met him. Sam was 22 in the Pilot (Sam born in 1983 and the Pilot in 2005). John first saw Adam when he was 12, so Sam had probably been in his second year of college when John first met him…as near as I can figure out the math in this series. I wonder where Dean was when he went off to see Adam?
That also means that Dean was 11 and Sam 7 when Adam was born. Dean was 9 or 10 and Sam around 5 in the Shritga episode (Something Wicked), indicating that John left the boys alone for long periods of time quite often at very young ages (A Very Supernatural Christmas, After School Special).
I find it curious, too, that there was one episode where Sam and Dean were left with the lady who used to run a motel and John left the boys with her to babysit (I always thought John was banging her). I can’t remember the name of the episode at the moment, but Dean was 16 at the time, the same age he’s supposed to be in Bad Boys.
Was that in Swap Meat? She mentioned Sam having assigned himself his own summer reading list the summer before 6th grade which is the last time they had seen her. John had left them with her from time to time, once for two weeks.
Yes, inky, it was Swap Meat. Sam was in 6th grade, making him 12 and Dean 16.
So, how long has it been?
The summer before 6th grade.
Mmm, I remember. You assigned yourself your own reading list.
[chuckling] That’s right. I forgot about that.
[to the TEENAGE GIRL] Your mom happens to be the best babysitter we ever had.
Well, when I was a maid at the Mayflower, out on the interstate – long before you were even an idea – their daddy used to pass through town and leave the boys with me while he went off to… work. One time, he was gone for two weeks.
Since Dean is 16 in this episode, I’m curious to see how the two episodes reconcile.
Adam Glass was also tweeting that in Bad Boys, Sam was nine. I didn’t see the whole back and forth, but he said to not worry about the minutiae of the episode and enjoy it. I think he was talking about the rougarou thing, but it could be the age thing.
I’m actually looking forward to this episode. I hope I’m not disappointed.
Today, while I was at work, my cousin stole my iphone and tested to
see if it can survive a forty foot drop, just so she
can be a youtube sensation. My iPad is now destroyed and she has 83 views.
I know this is completely off topic but I had to share it with someone!