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“Bad Boys” Discussion

Post your thought on tonight’s Dean flashback episode. Click HERE for my full recap or keep reading for my quick analysis.

This felt like a throwback to the early years. From the “Then” that featured John Winchester and scenes from the pilot, it was as if I was watching season 1 again.

 

You had ghosts, burning bodies in a cemetery, using iron rods and salt circles, it was all so old-school, especially compared to angels and the King of Hell. I appreciate the retro feel.

 

I also love any episode that delves into the psychology of the brothers. I’ve been hard on Dean for lying to everyone this season, but this episode reminded me (and us) why Dean is so great. He’s selfless and always sacrifices everything for his brother.

 

Here he had a new, normal life, winning awards for wrestling, getting good greats, nabbing a girlfriend to a school dance. It was the kind of regular life Sam always wants and Dean had it. Then his dad came with little Sam in the back of the Impala and Dean left.

 

The scene with teen Dean telling Robin about wanting to be a mechanic is one of those special moments I love. He loves cars because they come in, you fix them up and then they go. It’s what Dean wanted instead of having to always take care of his brother. But at the end of the day, teen Dean’s journey into manhood led him to realize that he doesn’t get that life, he has to go protect Sam.

 

That’s what Dean has been doing ever since John handed off his baby brother when Mary was set on fire. The show nailed it, especially by having Dean give Sonny a firm, manly handshake before leaving, showing that he really did grow up and become a man.

 

The fact that the ghost story involved a kid being protected and dealt with a mom who was burned alive only added to the Winchester family drama.

 

Ending with Sam thanking Dean, and Dean acting like it’s no big deal, was also perfect. To me, this whole episode was about how Dean learned to accept that everything he does, everything he will ever do, is to protect Sam.

 

Also, we saw Dean’s first kiss. And since he was 16 in these flashbacks, and Sam was only 15 when he was with Amy Pond, it means Sam actually started kissing girls younger than Dean.  That’s just hilarious.

News posted on November 19, 2013 Comments (168)

168 Comments »

  1. John trashing? Check.

    Canon trashing? Check.

    Subtle Sam trashing? Check.

    I don’t know. I’m going to have to watch this one again. I do think Dean should have been 14 instead of 16. And did he really get those bruises from a werewolf? He seemed mighty defensive when Sonny asked if John did it, so I guess John now beat his kids too. Great. RME.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 19, 2013 @ 7:00 pm

  2. This episode sucked. I got John and Sam trashing just like I expected. Typical. I’m beyond sick of this show. Everything is about poor woobie Dean.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 19, 2013 @ 7:07 pm

  3. This could’ve been a good episode. But as usual they trash canon and characterization just because it’s easy to tell their story. Can we get some writers that AREN’T lazy for a change?

    Comment by Sara — November 19, 2013 @ 7:10 pm

  4. I’m honestly not sure how I felt about what I saw.

    So, Dean didn’t want to hunt? I thought he embraced hunting. I actually thought he genuinely liked it and wasn’t just saying that to appease John. But i guess that was all a lie. Haha!

    He only left Sonny’s b/c he felt he had to take care of Sam. That kind of . . . sucks. It was nice thinking both boys weren’t miserable growing up, but I guess they both were.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 19, 2013 @ 7:21 pm

  5. Darn. Haven’t seen the episode yet, but from your comments, it’s all that i was afraid it would be. Didn’t the show clearly say that Dean embraced the hunting life, didn’t want more, blah blah?

    They couldn’t be suggesting that John beat the boys. That’s just.. no.

    Is Sam shown to be as weirdly unconcerned about Dean as the clip suggested?

    :( not sure I want to watch it.

    Comment by Tammy — November 19, 2013 @ 7:36 pm

  6. Tammy – definitely watch and develop your own opinion.

    I say the Sam bashing was subtle b/c nothing more was mentioned than what we saw in the preview clip. Sam genuinely thought Dean was “lost” on a hunt for two months. Just one line like, “You were in a boys home! I was going out of my mind! Why didn’t you guys tell me” would have sufficed. But nothing. I just find that completely unbelievable.

    When Sonny takes the cuffs off Dean’s wrists, he has all these bruises on BOTH his arms. Sonny asks him where they came from, mentions his father, and Dean says they were from a werewolf. I’ll have to watch it again b/c over on Spoilertv, someone said Dean didn’t look dodgy when he said “werewolf,” but I wasn’t sure. I guess my mind was still reeling from the idea that John left Dean there to “teach him a lesson.” Okay.

    John is the jerkiest parent ever!

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 19, 2013 @ 7:49 pm

  7. I thought this episode was very good. I’m sure that the scene at the end of the episode where Sam looked happy while he was playing with a plane in the Impala was because he was happy – his brother who he was told was lost had been found. Sam loves his brother and now his brother is back.

    I feel that Dean was undecided as to whether to stay or not, but when he looked out the window he saw Sammy and because he loves Sammy, he decided to leave and go be with his father and brother. Yes Dean wanted a different life, but he knew you don’t always get what you want.

    Dean of course would have defended his father and tell Sonny that his father hadn’t hurt him, because Dean can’t tell Sonny that a werewolf had given him the bruises.

    I feel what this episode showed at the end was that John was obsessed and some might even say addicted to finding the thing that killed his wife and every other evil thing. He may have still loved his sons, but that got lost in his obsession with finding the thing that killed his wife.

    Like all episodes there were good parts and bad parts in this one. For myself it was good episode.

    Comment by Valerie — November 19, 2013 @ 7:57 pm

  8. I am going to have to watch this episode again-but one line stood out to me -a foreshadow I am guessing. Both my son and I looked at each other and said”there it is”. Dean was talking to the little boy – Dean said something like ” sometimes even when you love someone you have to let them go”. I have to watch it again to get the specifics of it -because that scene just screamed at me.

    I did find it odd about John leaving Dean “to teach him a lesson” but I am wondering if that line was meant to have a deeper meaning -more of John teaching Dean about family or something. Again I have to watch the episode again to see what I feel about that again.

    Hey I mentioned having a werewolf in this episode and damn didn’t they use a werewolf reference.

    Tammy-watch the episode-I personally thought it was OK-It seemed rushed to me-not very well developed but it seemed to foreshadow what is to come between the brothers reguarding Sam/Zeke and Dean. There seemed to be a lot of lines that could have meant deeper things than what was meant on the surface. The detective in me loves that.

    I liked the scene where Robin pretends to not remember who Dean was and Deans look and pissy walk off. He was soooooo insulted that she didn’t remember him. (but she did. who wouldn’t remember a Winchester right??)

    Comment by animal — November 19, 2013 @ 7:59 pm

  9. Oh, and for the record, I didn’t hate the episode. I’ve come to the conclusion that it greatly depressed me. Ha. I found it depressing and sad – Dean’s back story.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 19, 2013 @ 8:07 pm

  10. Okay. Thanks, lisa1. I’ll just pretend they had that talk off screen, and Sam dd show his concern. Its usually so easy to make something more believable or ‘in character’ by adding or changing ONE line,etc, but the writers just don’t seem to understand. Some stuff is so glaringly obvious. I’m not sure if it’s laziness or a ‘couldn’t be bothered’ attitude or what. I just don’t get it.

    I’m reserve more comments for after seeing this episode, but did we really need yet another example of HOW devoted Dean is to Sam and what he keeps sacrificing for him? We all get that by now! Can’t we ever, for once, get a big, obvious display of Sam’s devotion or love for Dean?

    Shutting up now.

    Yeah, I will watch it. Guess I wouldn’t be able to resist anyway. :)

    Comment by Tammy — November 19, 2013 @ 8:10 pm

  11. Another episode about poor, poor Dean.

    According to the show, John is a jerk, Sam is a jerk. But poor woobie Dean. blech. Enough already.

    The show started with John as a devoted father who was drawn into finding what killed his wife and learned how to save others from the same fate. While raising his two sons the best he could.

    Now John is practically evil. Sam is a clueless idiot. And of course poor trapped Dean.

    Comment by AnnaLynn — November 19, 2013 @ 8:11 pm

  12. @8. Thanks, will do! :) just couldn’t help grumbling a bit.

    Comment by Tammy — November 19, 2013 @ 8:13 pm

  13. I know Tammy it does get old -and I lean toward Dean more than Sam-I agree we get soooo many scenes and vocabulary about how Dean sacrifices for Sam-I would looooovvvvveee to see an episode to show Sams love for Dean. I think the main purpose of this episode was to set up the fact that Dean is realizing he should have let Sam go. That’s why I want to see the scene with the little boy again-there was just something about that scene. The first scene of the episode between the brothers -the promo scene actually-Dean asks Sam if everyone is ok with going to -wherever. He said EVERYONE- He wants Sam to ask him-Dean wants to say -but he just hasn’t found the right time to tell Sam about Zeke yet. Its weighing on him. I think that’s what this episode was trying to say.

    Comment by animal — November 19, 2013 @ 8:19 pm

  14. Tammy – I would LOVE some big old sacrifice Sam has to make for Dean, but we are NEVER gonna get that on this show. It’s always Dean who sacrifices, and it’s always Dean who suffers!

    I can’t wait to get your thoughts on the episode. I’ve been so meh about it, you’ll probably really enjoy it :-)

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 19, 2013 @ 8:22 pm

  15. I enjoyed a good old-fashioned salt and burn ghost story and that, in the end, it was love that freed the ghost. I also liked the call-back flavor of S1. My thought was “damn, the show can still do these kinds of episodes,” but they just can’t make it back to the old days with these writers.

    Adam Glass ALWAYS does kid episodes, but in this case, I thought the kid that played Timmy did a good job, as did the kid who played young Dean. JA has made Dean such an iconic character, that no one will be able to live up to my idea of Dean, but the kid did alright. I really liked Sonny and, especially, the lady that played Ruth. I liked her the first time she was on, and I liked her here. I was hoping to see more of her.

    Whoa! There it is. Dean’s, sometimes even when you love someone you have to let them go” tells Dean’s lesson for the season is learning how to let Sam go.

    The other thing that sold the episode for me was the look at Dean’s psyche. Sam was right, the best time of Dean’s life was the two months at Sonny’s. He had that life for four years, and he enjoyed having it again for two months. Yet, I feel that the episode showed that Dean would and will always choose hunting. In this case, and I’m glad it happened this way, Dean chose to go back for Sam, not John.

    The John trashing didn’t bother me that much. For me, nothing tops that crappy Adam stuff. I could surely see John leaving Dean there to teach him a lesson and, once again, good continuity that even at 16, Dean accepted all responsibility for his actions.

    Sam? Glass dropped the ball in showing any worry from Sam that his brother was “missing on a hunt” for two months. That part could have been better. But I did like that Glass showed Sam (1) knowing Dean well enough not to push him for answers and (2) recognizing that Dean did like Sonny’s place and came back because of him. I had good brother feels, good Dean feels, and good Sam feels during the episode. John? Such a bastard to Dean.

    I liked it.

    Comment by Sheri — November 19, 2013 @ 8:23 pm

  16. I am sort of shocked that Dean Winchester hadn’t had his first kiss by 16.

    I would love it if Dean’s wrestling certificate showed up on Dean’s bedroom wall courtesy of Sam.

    Flashbacks this late in the game are tricky because they have to stay true to a long canon that has come before. I felt like this episode was good but not as careful with somethings we already know about the Winchesters as I would have liked. Some of the characterization was a tiny bit off.

    I didn’t like how Sam so casual about Dean being missing for two months. Maybe a line about how Sam was scared to death until they finally picked him up. John is getting worse and worse as the series goes on. Are we meant to think that the wounds on Dean from the hunt that he told Gordon about. The one that made Dean embrace the life at 16. Dean didn’t really seem to hero worship John that much but he was the obedient son. I know he only considered it for a moment but separation from his family doesn’t seem like a consideration for Dean at all.

    The young Dean actor fared pretty well I thought.

    Comment by inky — November 19, 2013 @ 8:26 pm

  17. Oh, one other thing I liked was that adult Dean showed his sharp edges, which was off-set nicely by young Dean being normal and doing kid stuff.

    And I do think that Sam’s nonchalance about Dean missing for a couple of months is in line with the idea that Sam was spoiled and coddled and pretty much into himself right up until Dean showed up in the Pilot…and beyond. I thought that was good character continuity.

    Comment by Sheri — November 19, 2013 @ 8:29 pm

  18. You know what? I just want Sam to go full on evil. Screw it, writers. Bring me evil!Sam and let’s end this stuff right now. I want Sam to go full on dark by the end of the series. That is the only thing that will honestly make me happy.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 19, 2013 @ 8:33 pm

  19. To me, the brother bond hasn’t existed since season 1 and 2. So, screw the brother bond. I just want dark!Sam, full fledged 100% dark, evil Sam. Hopefully, the Lucifer plot line is still hanging around in the background. If it is, I’m looking forward to that.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 19, 2013 @ 8:36 pm

  20. Inky – I agree w/your post, and I esp. agree about the FBs being more and more tricky as the show progresses. I also thought the characterization was off.

    As you said, I would have said Dean was 14 (the actor could have passed for 14) instead of 16, so then the infamous werewolf hunt story told to Gordon wouldn’t have been mentioned.

    Gordon told Dean he embraced the life during that hunt. JA sold those lines. I believed he was sincere all these years. But if those bruises on his arms were from that hunt, then Dean lied to Gordon (and the audience). He didn’t embrace the life and really would have wanted to be doing anything other than that. So, is that now the story? Will it change again next year?

    I also agree that the idea that Dean got his first kiss at 16 is crazy to me? Wasn’t Dean dumping Sam at Plucky’s all across the nation when Sam was 11 so he could chase girls or go on dates?

    The actor who played Dean was great! But then I liked BK’s Dean too.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 19, 2013 @ 8:39 pm

  21. @19-The midseason finale or whatever they call it-They have labeled it “The Angel Wars Begin” on some sites I have seen. If two angels (Lucifer and Michael) were bad for the planet-then why are Sam and Dean nonchalant about a whole crap load of angels fighting each other???? I think you are going to get the Lucifer/Sam thing before its all said and done. Probably season 10.

    Comment by animal — November 19, 2013 @ 8:40 pm

  22. I agree that making Dean 14 would have worked better. Also, 10 year Sammy would make more sense than 12 year old Sammy playing with a plane in the back of the car. Twelve year old Sam would have been studying for his SAT’s and assigning himself extra reading. :)

    I think the writer tweeted something about Sam being 9?? It distresses me that he thinks there is a 7 year age difference.

    Comment by inky — November 19, 2013 @ 8:49 pm

  23. Um, for those of us who still like Sam, no we don’t want him to go evil. We watch the show for the brother bond. I don’t see the problem with Sam in this one. They told Sam that Dean was MIA after he was found, not before. Who knows what they told him before that. And nothing can diminish J.W.’s reputation; it’s rock-bottom. I grew up the oldest child of parents who worshiped demons (in a bottle and/or pill bottle). I am Dean without any love or respect for the crappy parents who left me in control of my baby sister and brother from the time I was ten. Dean is a saint. I’m a Sam girl. I hate Castiel. Where I am at.

    Comment by RS — November 19, 2013 @ 8:50 pm

  24. Dear God, I hope not. Bringing back Lucifer/Sam–meaning Sam is going to say yes to the devil again? He could then very well be the stupidest character in the history of television. Besides, we need to encourage show not to retread things they’ve already done–they’ve already proven they always make it worse the second time around.

    Comment by Huh — November 19, 2013 @ 8:52 pm

  25. Yeah, inky, Adam Glass has some issues with continuity. I was pointed to his twitter, where a few days ago he was being deliciously thin-skinned and passive aggressive about being called out about it.

    Comment by Huh — November 19, 2013 @ 8:54 pm

  26. Inky – That makes sense since the kid playing Sam looked like he as 9 and was acting like a 9-year old. The boy playing Dean looked between 12-14!

    Does the writer seriously NOT know the characters are four years apart in age? Really?

    Oh, and I’ll vomit if the Lucifer/Sam stuff is brought up again. It’s done and dusted!

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 19, 2013 @ 8:58 pm

  27. So . . . Dean is now telling characters that they have to do what’s best for them, even if it hurts the people you love? Hasn’t that pretty much always been the opposite of his life philosophy? Isn’t that the opposite of what flashback Dean is supposed to have done in this episode? I’d be excited if this was foreshadowing for Dean, i.e., he’s going to do what’s best for him this year, but somehow I think it’s just another lesson Dean is going to (re) learn this season where he learns that he has to let his family do whatever they want, no matter how it hurts him (even though the finale reinforced that it’s imperative that Dean put Sam/family first no matter what he’s feeling). Or it could be nothing but Adam Glass spouting off (I don’t have a lot of faith in him as a writer either way). Just an odd line from Dean, I thought.

    Comment by Huh — November 19, 2013 @ 9:09 pm

  28. I view the brother bonder the relationship between Sam and Dean the exact same way that I view my relationship with my own sister.

    Sam and Dean are only brothers because they are blood. They’re not “brothers”. They’re not even friends, in my opinion. So, I think the writers should stop trying to fool me with the whole Dean sacrificing stuff for Sam and trying to make me believe in the brother bond. It won’t work considering that this season, they have managed to retcon a bunch of stuff and destroy whatever semblance of a bond or so-called brotherhood that Sam and Dean ever had.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 19, 2013 @ 9:12 pm

  29. good episode, even if the continuity was a bit off.

    Comment by brx — November 19, 2013 @ 9:14 pm

  30. I really don’t mean to sound judgmental or whatever, so my apologies in advance if anyone gets offended.

    Just wanted to say that it sometimes seems like we’re watching completely different shows. What I’m getting from it, a lot of times, seems so different from what someone else, eg Caitlin is getting from it.

    Also what we want to see happening in it. So fascinating.

    Comment by Tammy — November 19, 2013 @ 9:53 pm

  31. @15 Sheri
    I think we agree on a lot of stuff in this show Sheri. I haven’t watched the ep but judging what you have said, I am defo going to give it a shot

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 20, 2013 @ 1:56 am

  32. @23 Sam isn’t going anywhere RS, he is still well loved, by many many fans and Dean, so anyone who says they truly care for Dean cannot wish Sam any harm. This story is going to play out well in the end. Just give Carver time

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 20, 2013 @ 2:03 am

  33. There are some people who think that Sammy didn’t miss Dean while he was gone for the 2 months, because at the end of the episode we saw that Sammy was smiling/happy. Of course he was smiling/happy – they were going to get Dean, who had now been found. If your brother was lost for 2 months, you would be happy as well when you were told that he had been found.

    Some people think Sam didn’t sacrifice anything for Dean, the way Dean sacrificed so much for Sam. Well, I think when Sam threw himself and Lucifer into the pit in Season 5 – that was a big sacrifice. Sam knew before he did it that he would be in the cage with Lucifer being tortured forever. Sam had also tried to get Dean to stop hunting and have a normal life with Lisa/Ben after Sam was gone. I think that was a big sacrifice on Sam’s part.

    Just my thoughts.

    Comment by Valerie — November 20, 2013 @ 3:40 am

  34. Valerie – I think the show goes out if its way to show time and time again how much Dean sacrifices for Sam on a personal level, but we never get to see the same from Sam. I have no doubt Sam would sacrifice for Dean, but we don’t see that on the show.

    The theme is Dean gives and gives, and Sam just takes and takes. It’s not fair to Sam. That last FB was depressing because we know Dean is yet again sacrificing for Sam. We now know he hated, and hates, hunting just as much as Sam. It was just a weird scene. As others have said, the emotional beats were off.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 20, 2013 @ 3:54 am

  35. If you go back and look at season one, you’ll find a lot of the continuity there. You’ll remember that Sam asked him then why he stayed in hunting – why he didn’t find something for himself and Dean says he stayed for their Dad – that he needed him. Really, I think people like to contrast the brothers, and have made a much bigger deal about Dean liking hunting an is really warranted. Usually he talks about it as “what we do” or “the family business” or talks about how it sucks, but you get used to it – or how it’s a responsibility. He never says he loves it, that it makes him happy, that he has a purpose in life. The closest we get to that is in purgatory, which he says felt ‘pure’ – but he’s contrasting that with his hunting life, which is not pure.
    It’s hard not to conclude that Sam was one of the few bright spots in his life, one he’s hung on to with a death grip.
    I agree with Lisa that Dean telling Timmy to let go was completely out of character – but it does harken back to his comments to Charlie in LARP – that sometimes you just have to let someone go.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — November 20, 2013 @ 5:30 am

  36. I liked this episode. It was like home cooking, just warm and filling and good. Back to basics, but all of them done well. It showed Sam’s intuitive understanding of his brother. Dean never had to say a word – Sam just knew how much Dean had sacrificed. He knew Dean had done it for him. I wonder if for him, there was a little moment where things just slipped into place and he understood Dean better; where so many of Dean’s choices when Sam was a teenager came into focus and Sam finally understood – Dean did it for him. Everything. Hunting. Staying with Dad and being his ‘good little soldier’ and ‘daddy’s blunt instrument’. Mind you, Dean didn’t ask Sam if he wanted that – it was his choice. Maybe not the best choice either – but when you’re a kid you make the best of the choices you’ve got.
    Of course, I do agree with Orlando Jones – not enough Cas. Just like Tequila, everything’s better with Cas.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — November 20, 2013 @ 5:39 am

  37. The reason I disliked the “Dean hates hunting” and “Sam wants normal” arcs is b/c the show is about hunting supernatural things. If they both hate it, they are too old, IMO, to continue to do it out of some warped sense of loyalty whether that is Dean to John or Sam to Dean. They need to take control of their lives and do what they want. I don’t want to watch grown adults, miserable in their lives but doing nothing to change it. It’s pathetic.

    I was happy when both characters were lifted out of their depression arcs and re-committed themselves to hunting. But it seems neither actually wants to do this, so why must they? I know the show must go on, but why introduce these types of elements to the show. They are just downers.

    I know Sam had a miserable time growing up, apart from Dean, but I got solace in the idea that Dean actually enjoyed this life and thought it was good. Now, the show wants me to believe he hated it as well, and probably still does. It really calls into question his attitude toward Sam in S1 and S8 (apart from the not looking stuff, which is inexcusable), and in DSOTM. Why get upset w/Sam for those memories when you had happy ones w/o him too? I always knew that was the case, but it makes Dean a huge hypocrite or inconsistent at best.

    If they both hate hunting, there’s no reason for them to continue to do it!

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 20, 2013 @ 5:49 am

  38. @2- Really Caitlin? Just because for the first time in a LONG time, the focus isn’t ALL on Sam , it sucks? I’m sorry, I didn’t want to say anything, but it seems that you hate Dean so much that just because an episode doesn’t profusely kiss Sam’s ass, it’s somehow bashing him.
    I really thought that this site was one of the few I’ve seen (sorry Lisa) where Dean gets a fair shake. But I see that the Dean hate has finally arrived here as well.
    To me, SPN has ALWAYS given Sam the most importance and focus, as he has had just about EVERY major storyline. All Dean ever gets is playing support to Sam and also now to Cas. But just because Dean gets an episode you say it’s all about woobie Dean?
    I’m sorry, I DO love Sam too, but I feel if SPN has been unfair to anybody, it’s been Dean, not Sam. Again, sorry Lisa. I don’t see how Dean giving EVERYTHING for Sam is somehow unfair to Sam!
    I also disagree with you about the brother bond. They WERE uncommonly close, even after the season 4 crap, until season 8 when Carver destroyed it all.
    It really sounds to me like what you want is SPN with ONLY Sam. Sorry, it’s supposed to be about BOTH of them.

    Comment by roxi — November 20, 2013 @ 6:11 am

  39. @37- Lisa, I feel you are judging Dean too hard for feelings he had as a kid. For that matter , I don’t think Sam should be judged so hard on feelings he had as a kid either.
    Is it not possible for a person to change their perspectives as they grow into adults? I did my most perspective changing when I got into my 40′s for goodness sake.

    Comment by roxi — November 20, 2013 @ 6:27 am

  40. I totally agree with this recap, especially this: “To me, this whole episode was about how Dean learned to accept that everything he does, everything he will ever do, is to protect Sam.” YES. That smile on young Dean’s face when he saw Sam waiting for him in the car… aw! Dean knew that that’s where he place was, with Sam. Yes, it was bittersweet, but … that’s Dean Winchester’s life. Bittersweet.

    This felt like an early season episode to me — with an old-fashioned monster-of-the-week hunt, that ghost was scary and that creepy old barn, Dean and his EMF meter!, the boys salting and burning bones, and young Dean wearing the amulet! And Dean being so good with little Timmy, protecting him from bullies, and that hug in the end… aw.

    According to the writer, in the script Dean is 14 not 16, which is much more believable. They changed it to 16 because the actor (who I thought did a great job here) looked older. So I’m going to go with Dean’s first kiss being at 14. :)

    ————————————————

    @Lisa1 — Where was the “Sam trashing”? I didn’t see a bit of Sam trashing in this episode. Now as far as John trashing, well that’s nothing new. John was a bad father, especially to Dean. From the 1st season, we saw John leave an 8 year old (!!) Dean all alone with Sam in Something Wicked, all the while knowing that something was KILLING little kids in that town! And then John blamed 8 year old Dean for not being with Sam every second when the thing he was hunting attacked Sam. I’m sorry but John’s bad parenting was established in the first season of the show. This episode just went along with what was already established IMO.

    And RE: Dean sacrificing for Sam and hunting – yes, Dean has been shown to sacrifice a lot for Sam. But again, that was clearly established from the very beginning of the show. This episode just reinforced what was already show canon. Dean did have to sacrifice his own goals and dreams in order to keep the family together and to take care of both Sam and his dad. John even admitted it in In My Time of Dying. John put too much onto Dean’s shoulders, and Dean just accepted it.

    And also, I think you’re wrong that it’s now established that Dean “hates” hunting. No, he was a young teenager who was struggling with his feelings, like normal teenagers do. I think Dean did accept the family business, but I also think there was always a PART of Dean (that he buried deep for Sam’s sake) who felt trapped by the burdens (hunting and being the family caregiver) his father forced on him. We know this from Dream a Little Dream of Me, among other episodes. It’s not that Dean hates hunting, it’s just that it’s a hard life and one he really didn’t have a choice in choosing for himself. He’s come to accept and embrace it, but it’s still human to have doubts.

    And what was Swan Song about if not SAM sacrificing himself for Dean, and for the entire world?! There hasn’t been a bigger sacrifice on this show than what was shown in SS. So I’m not quite sure why it’s necessary to trash this episode just because it was DEAN’S sacrifice being highlighted this time? How about just allow that this particular episode was to give us insight about Dean. He doesn’t get special powers or the important mytharc role or get to sacrifice himself to save the entire world, so they give him these kind of episodes. And IMO it was a great episode which had the brothers working together and truly reinforced their brotherly bond.

    Comment by Chris — November 20, 2013 @ 6:36 am

  41. I agree with roxi and tigerlil1y. Dean has never said he really wants to be a hunter or he loves it. He showed in the dreamwalking episode in season 3, he wanted the normal family life with Lisa and Ben. He lived that life for a year after season 5 just fine (minus missing Sam and trying to get him back). Just because he hasn’t been screaming it from the pilot episode like Sam has, doesn’t mean he doesn’t want some normalcy too.

    Likewise, Dean is 16 here. I think it’s pretty believable to say he embraced the life when he fought the werewolf with his dad, time passed and he got landed at Sonny’s and saw the benefits of a stable home and steady girlfriend. More time passed, hunting turned out to be his life, and he embraces that because it’s what he was raised as, minus two months.

    I don’t understand where the John trashing is seen. They’ve never made any effort to say John wasn’t an obsessed and driven man. Dean lost the food money, got caught stealing, and sent to Sonny’s and Sam went to Bobby’s – to John that reads both my sons are in safe places until I finish my hunt. Sucks he came back on the night of the school dance, but that’s not even going to register on his radar as a thing. I think that scene made it look like Dean might have tried to stay anyway, but he saw Sam and smiled and decided to go with his brother because he loves him and there’s nothing he’d put before Sam.

    Overall, I think Sam has sacrificed as much as Dean has, but I’m not sure what you want to see a 12 year old do for his big brother. Sam didn’t even know about hunting until he was around 8 or 9 and he left at 18. To kid Sam, every night he didn’t run away or refuse to leave Bobby’s was a sacrifice to stay with his brother – but that’s not really an episode, it’s something you pick up from watching nine seasons.

    I really liked the episode. I thought the actor who played Dean was really good. I’m not sure what that line about doing what’s best for you was supposed to mean exactly, it seemed kind of against Dean’s nature to say. They showed the flash of Dean telling Sam “don’t you dare think there’s anything I’d put in front of you” at the very beginning; it seems like more than Dean having any sort of personal revelation, it’s another example of Dean operating with a different set of rules when it comes to Sam.

    Comment by Sarah — November 20, 2013 @ 6:55 am

  42. I actually enjoyed the basic plot of a horror story–at points felt some anxiety over the fate of the victims, particularly the kids looking at that rosary wrapped around that mower blade. Didn’t know SPN could or had any interest in doing horror any more. Nice to see it can still create some tension and apprehension in a creepy story.
    Liked the young Dean actor. As for the Dean story, so Dean was a saint as a teenager. How this Dean got transformed into the self-centered After School Special 4.13 Dean is inconceivable. So John was an awful, possibly physically abusive, father and Dean never wanted to be a hunter. He was always a self-sacrificing father figure to Sam who threw away a chance of a real home, a real father, to save Sam? So John was a real monster and Dean was not a real boy but a self-sacrificing mature responsible man as a teen? Saint Dean is not a believable character except in the most gushing Dean-girl fanfic. Prefer my real boy Dean.
    No wonder Jared is so excited about season 9; Sam seems to have been retired, and Jared has little work. Jensen is carrying the acting-time of the two leads and Collins has long filler episodes for the Hallmark crowd. Sam mostly stands around as a extra, has a few interchanges with Crowley and Kevin, and occasionally impersonates an angel. Sam has become the third-wheel in the series.
    Nonetheless, thought this episode was entertaining as a horror-flick with some nice performances by the supporting actors–including that little kid at the center of the story.

    Comment by CaseyT — November 20, 2013 @ 7:02 am

  43. I fully understand those who didn’t like this episode. I could tear the thing apart without much effort, particularly in the way Dean was depicted completely opposite from the Dean the fans know and the Dean shown in S1-S3, even in S4′s “It’s a Terrible Life. That Dean, who was born to hunt, always embraced hunting, idolized his father now always secretly didn’t like hunting, didn’t like the responsibility (the repairing car remark), didn’t defend John to a stranger and suddenly wanted normal. The Dean who was a womanizer, we know learn didn’t get his first kiss until he was 16. The thought that Sam, at age 12, didn’t have a care in the world, actually barely remembered that Dean was missing for two months and that John was supposedly out looking for Dean, just sat in the car playing with an airplane upon reuniting with the brother that he is supposed to idolize.

    But, you know what? Adam Glass is an immature idiot that lives in the Hollywood bubble, lacks anything other than average writing skills, is experienced, is a comic book writer, lacks life experiences that would expand his writing skills, and is kid obsessed. All of the current writers (except for Jeremy Carver) are inexperienced, and they are all wrapped up in their small Hollywood lives. I’ve reconciled myself to this, and an episode like this one is the best we are going to get these days.

    For that reason, I look at the episode as I mentioned in my Posts #15 and #17. I think the whole point of the episode was foreshadowing about what’s going to happen when Sam finds out about Zeke. Sam and Cas are going to get pissed and will either leave Dean or have Dean leave. Dean’s lesson is going to be that he has to let go of the people he has fought so hard to protect and keep close (Sam and Cas — and I almost gag having to include Cas in this, but he’s now a “brother,” so there you are)…a parallel story to Timmy and his mother.

    So, although Taxi Driver really screwed up reaper lore, this episode really screwed up both Sam and Dean’s character; particularly Dean’s. But, because of the quality of writers, the lack of interest of anyone keeping the writers in line and demanding quality work, the episode worked, I think, moving the Winchesters story forward.

    Comment by Sheri — November 20, 2013 @ 7:19 am

  44. @43 – I already commented on Dean not being shown as all against normalcy, but I thought the repairing car remark you mentioned was actually interesting because it reminded me of how Dean looks at hunting. The mechanic is responsible for the car until you solve the puzzle, fix the car, and then you’re done and gone. The hunter is responsible for the hunt, until you solve the case, kill the monster, and then you’re done and gone. I doubt any of the people that have been helped over the years just went on about their lives, and needing a lifetime of therapy would be the best case scenario; realistically, if everyone got into hunting for a reason, Sam and Dean have unknowingly started off quite a few hunters. But they don’t know or deal with that because they killed the monster and are gone.

    I’m in no way saying that’s bad, I just thought that was an interesting line they gave kid Dean because it did say a lot about his comparable views on hunting. I thought the rock star line was clearly just thrown out to impress the guitar playing pretty girl.

    Comment by Sarah — November 20, 2013 @ 7:38 am

  45. Early in the series, Kripke seems to have kept firm control over his writers–which makes perfect sense: his show, his vision. But when he began surrendering control to Gamble, the writers were given more and more latitude to alter Kripke’s vision until SN was often unrecognizable.Things haven’t improved much under Carter. Nobody’s really watching the store, so writers are left free to create practically whatever version of SN they please.

    Comment by Watcher — November 20, 2013 @ 7:44 am

  46. I should add to that, I thought him saying he didn’t like the responsibility was more Dean saying he didn’t like being responsible for Sam all the time. By the time two months had passed, and he saw his brother, he remembered he also loved and missed him, and left, which might sound like the quick change in desires that people are actually complaining about, but you are talking about hormone infused teenagers here. They aren’t really known for making hard and fast decisions.

    Comment by Sarah — November 20, 2013 @ 7:44 am

  47. Watch 2×20 of Supernatural. Without hunting, that is what Sam and Dean’s relationship would really be like. Time to face reality, folks.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 20, 2013 @ 8:10 am

  48. @ Sarah #44: If I thought Adam Glass had more than 3 brain cells, I would say that your view of comparing hunting to fixing a car was excellent, but I don’t think he thinks of those things. When I first heard that line, I wondered whatever happened to Dean wanting to be a fireman when he was a young boy.

    As far as responsibility, I thought that, too. But in a broader sense, Dean suffers from an unhealthy and unnatural sense of responsibility for everything. Even this season, since he was the one pushing Sam and everyone else into staying focused and finishing the trials, and then gave up that quest to save Sam’s life, he now feels responsible for every action the demons are doing (Devil May Care). Viewed within this season, already at 16, Dean is feeling the weight of the responsibility John put on him and of hunting itself.

    @ Caitlin #47: I don’t understand your reference to 2.20 (Everybody Loves a Clown). Can you explain that further for me?

    Comment by Sheri — November 20, 2013 @ 8:46 am

  49. But they did have that life in common, Caitlin. We are all products of our life experiences so the fact that they were pretty much the only consistent things in each other’s lives shaped them and their relationship. It doesn’t matter what they would have been in an alternate reality which was Dean’s creation anyway. Dean wouldn’t have had to grow up so fast or protect Sam so much. Sam would have had his parents raise him and take care of him not his big brother. That alone bonded them in a way most siblings are not. They would have different perspectives on life and each other.

    Comment by inky — November 20, 2013 @ 8:57 am

  50. A classic SPN episode with the classic signs of a hunting; flickering lights, scratching in the walls, room getting cold, and emp reader. great throwback

    Comment by SPNFan — November 20, 2013 @ 10:00 am

  51. @ 5. I think it was implied as far back as season 1 that John has hit the kids. Sam speculated that if dad had drunk more they could have ended up like Max who was brutally abused by his father. And of course Dean’s moment in the Dark Side of the Moon.

    If Dean left only to take care of Sam, then damn… John’s character just keeps getting more mud :D He was always portrayed as a bit of a bastard but when he finally met with his sons it was easy to understand that he genuinely cared about the boys, why the boys would love him back and why many things were forgiven.

    They need to be careful with the character of John because there is now a mountain of evidence that is very damning. Absent father but not just that, actually left his young kids alone for days, described as a deadbeat dad by Dean, drank and took his anger out on the boys, no happy childhood memories (for Sam) like Thanksgiving, Christmas etc., making Dean responsible for Sam when Dean was just four years older than his brother etc. etc.

    All that makes it seem like Sam and Dean should be pissing on his grave if it wasn’t for the sacrificing of his soul and actually having love and warmth towards them in the s1 and s2 narrative.

    - – -

    @ 17. Re: And I do think that Sam’s nonchalance about Dean missing for a couple of months is in line with the idea that Sam was spoiled and coddled and pretty much into himself right up until Dean showed up in the Pilot…and beyond. I thought that was good character continuity.

    Ouch. Coddled? A lot of pressure was put on him (namely by John). Moving around all the time so Sam is always the new kid, having to hunt when he didn’t want to and was scared, overruling things that were important to him like school, disowning him for awhile when Sam wanted to go to college and have independence etc… I don’t think Sam was “spoiled” except that he got some of the benefits pretty much every youngest child gets (they get to have the longest childhood etc).

    - – -

    I don’t think I like the idea that Sam got his first real kiss earlier than Dean :D But hey I’m cool with this revelation, it’s realistic given that they never stayed in the same pace for long and in a way it makes Dean a more sympathetic character because he wasn’t this sex god even at 16. :D

    - – -

    About the not wanting to hunt thing… I think I would prefer a Dean who had as much fun with it as he could have in a situation like that BUT to be fair in season 1 episode Skin it was revealed that Dean had dreams, too, and he was jealous of Sam who had gone to college, had friends etc. and as a kid it’s harder to enjoy some of the perks that being a hunter gives. You pretty much need to be an adult…

    - – -

    I didn’t like Sam’s assessment that Dean had been his happiest while away from family. It kind of takes away from the character of Dean.

    A nice parallel between Sam & Amy and Dean & Sonny. Dean could have had a normal life, school, a girlfriend, done stuff that every teenager does but he gave that up for Sam so I think it reinforces the idea that they have always had a strong bond. I mean there is no way Dean could have left Sam alone to that life.

    The last scene of Dean looking outside and seeing Sam made me tear up :D

    Comment by San — November 20, 2013 @ 10:02 am

  52. @ Caitlin: Sorry, I misread the number 2.20 as 2.02. I got it and will comment on that later today.

    Comment by Sheri — November 20, 2013 @ 10:04 am

  53. At no point did I “trash” the episode b/c it was a Dean-centered episode. I made it quite clear why I disliked parts of the episode. I think it messed w/Dean’s characterization too much.

    That is my opinion. No one has to share it.

    And I thought the Sam bashing was subtle in that he comes off spoiled and uncaring. He cared a great deal when he was 8 about John, but cares nothing about his beloved brother at 12. I guess since I don’t, nor have I ever, seen Sam as a selfish jerk, it didn’t play out well to me.

    I think it’s bad that Dean has given up so much for Sam, but I understand why he does it. I would like to see Sam do something similar. I never saw SS as Sam sacrificing for Dean, but rather “righting a wrong” by releasing Lucifer.

    Again, JMO.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 20, 2013 @ 10:16 am

  54. Just saw it, and i didn’t dislike it. Didn’t love it either. It was painful to watch and be reminded of the way life was for Dean, even when he was young, and the reminder of what a jerk John was. Maybe he did the best he could, but it sure wasn’t enough.

    I found some things ‘off’, like his statement to Robin that he didn’t like his life till now(don’t remember how he put it) as he has said differently before, or at least suggested it, and Sam’s reaction to him being lost, etc. I found them contary to how the characters have been shown, and I really dislike that. But these points have been discussed here already.

    HOwever, I found myself understanding Dean liking it at the house after spending time there. For once in his life, he wasn’t responsible for anyone or anything. Which 16 (or rather, more probably, 14) year old would, by choice, prefer John’s parenting skills, lifestyle, and forever being responsible for a bratty kid brother (however much they love them) to a stable place where he could be more like a regular 16(?) year old and BE APPRECIATED for it? I can also see him, at that age, being resentful of always babysitting Sam. As difficult as it was to see, Dean always had a very painful childhood. And this was a chance to be like a regular teenager, with no one but himself to think about. But when it comes down to it, Dean will always choose family (and Sam). One look, he was reminded of his love for them, and the choice was made.

    Comment by Tammy — November 20, 2013 @ 10:17 am

  55. Aw, it’s too bad that the Lady Gaga special bombed big time. This episode deserved a stronger lead in.

    Comment by jace — November 20, 2013 @ 10:18 am

  56. Tammy – I agree. I understand why Dean enjoyed his time away from the responsibility of Sam and John’s iron hand. I just thought his intense dislike for hunting to be weird. I think in the hands of better writers, this could have been a much better episode.

    Again, JMO. Not trying to tell anyone else what to think!

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 20, 2013 @ 10:40 am

  57. Yes, Lisa1, I agree about that point.

    I didn’t get the idea that it was John who might have caused the bruises, though. To me, he didn’t come across as dodgy, or resentful, and however bad a parent I think John has been, I never thought of him physically abusing the boys. Of course, emotional abuse is as bad :(

    As for Sam being shown as so uncaring about Dean, I, yet again, have to just ignore it as bad writing, as it is so completely improbable. And Sam does seem much younger than 12 anyway (not to say he wouldn’t be concerned about Dean at 8 or 9 or whatever). I found that the show redeemed itself somewhat in that particular department by showing Sam as being understanding of Dean in the present, and actually showing him to care in the little scenes – him trying to get to see Dean’s name on the bed, being moved by the certificate on the wall, realizing that it was a good time for his brother (though I wouldn’t go so far to say the ‘best time’), and thanking Dean in the end, for always being there, etc. This is actually more than what we usually get from Sam, wouldn’t you say?

    So, for me, some good moments, some not-so-good ones, but not something I’d like to watch again.

    Comment by Tammy — November 20, 2013 @ 10:59 am

  58. All of these comments here… and I am going to say that this is the best episode of this season and it´s not even close.

    I was expecting a kind of lame episode, but this is the first time since, season 4 or 5, that I felt a season 1/2 vibe. A great ghosthunt, great story about Deans youth (especially the parts with Robin/Sonny, and great moments between Dean and Sam as well. No angels, no Crowley, no Kevin.. Damn I really don’t understand how you can dislike this episode.

    Maybe I’m kind of overreacting because we haven’t had such a great season 1 type of episode, but I really think that this episode is better and way more interesting than the other episodes of season 9, and even most of 8.

    Comment by Robin — November 20, 2013 @ 11:28 am

  59. I enjoyed this! It’s when we get episodes like Oz and Dean being a dog back to back where we don’t learn anything new either about the brothers or about the main storyline (Zeke) that I get discouraged. This is the way to do a “filler” episode because it doesn’t end up feeling like a filler! I think this is gonna be one of those episodes that will be referenced by fans in the future.

    The age thing is a shame though because now one can’t take the story at face value.

    Comment by San — November 20, 2013 @ 12:03 pm

  60. I think when it coms to Sam and Dean, I don’t see brothers. I see a parent/child relationship.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 20, 2013 @ 12:04 pm

  61. @ Caitlin. Hmm… The last scene certainly points in that direction. But I think their age difference overall is perfect. Four years is small enough that they would always be able to relate to each other and Dean wouldn’t be like a daddy to Sam (whereas if Dean was a teenager while Sam was still a small child it could have very easily gone that way) but four years it’s still significant enough that Sam would always be the younger one, more in need of protection and taken care of. Sam is 8, Dean is 12 or Sam is 12, Dean is 16 etc.

    Comment by San — November 20, 2013 @ 12:15 pm

  62. The last scene is a bit of a mindf*ck because while the actor can pass younger than he is (I think he is 18 in real life) he is still clearly a teenager / young adult whereas Sammy in the car is really young, playing with a toy. Sure 12-year-olds still do that but in a different way.

    Comment by San — November 20, 2013 @ 12:26 pm

  63. Where was the Sam bashing? Sam is a little boy hanging out a window with a plane in his hand. How is that being bratty? At no time does Dean tell Sonny or Robin that he even has a brother much less a bratty one he has to take care of. Where in this episode did bratty come in?

    Sam was told Dean was lost for a couple of months and we can assume there was a found reunion when he saw Dean come out of the house. At twelve he’s not going to be jumping up and down in the car or screaming for Dean to come out.

    As an adult Sam showed appropriate surprise and interest at learning the truth. Dean shut him down at every question which is typical Dean. After experiencing the farm Sam was attuned enough to his brother to understand what it really meant to Dean and why he left which speaks volumes for Sam’s insight into his brother and his love for Dean. His expressed gratitude for Dean’s loyalty to him says it all.

    As for Dean, no rewriting of canon that I can see. He made his commitment to hunting when he was sixteen after shooting a ware-wolf from a distance not wrestling with one. So it was after his stay at the farm. I also remember him telling Sam he wanted to be a fireman at one point. Who’s to say he never had other dreams.

    As for the reference to cars leaving and not being responsible for them, not shocking. I did leave home when I was eighteen because I was tired of looking after my little brothers. It’s not shocking that a sixteen year old would welcome the prospect, not shocking to anyone who’s had their lives ruled by the needs of others. It took me over a year to be lured back to care for my family. Just one look out the window and Dean chose love of Sam over his own dreams. How Dean like.

    I enjoyed this episode for many reasons. The ghost hunt so like the early seasons. The peek into one of the boy’s past is always welcome. That their childhood was no more pleasant for Dean than it was for Sam, I think needed saying. And watching Sam just being Sam, not possessed Sam or any other kind of Sam was a welcome change.

    Yes I enjoyed this episode very much.

    Comment by Haley56 — November 20, 2013 @ 2:39 pm

  64. Finally got to watch the episode.

    Taking away the flashback nonsensical story, I actually liked this episode. It was an actual old-fashioned ghost story with salt and iron and the boys working together. No Zeke, no Angels, no Demons. I liked it.

    Did I like the crappy past story of Dean’s “life”? No. There was actually no need for it here. They could easily have known Sonny from a job in the past or he could have been an old friend of John’s or Bobby’s and the main story could have run just as it did and been fine.

    But these writers- who have never watched any of the past seasons- just have to keep making up different stuff each week that does not go along with what was written before.

    I know in the fiction world you can add things and delete things as you choose. That is fiction. But when you add things that completely change the characters to the point of ridiculousness, well, that does not work for me.

    But I liked that Dean and Sam worked well together. I like the actor who played Sonny (he reminded me of Josh Brolin) and I like the actor who played Timmy. And I also did like the story and why the ghost was doing what it was doing.

    Omitting the boring and unnecessary flashbacks, I enjoyed this episode. And for me, that is a rarity for the last dozen plus episodes.

    Comment by SL — November 20, 2013 @ 2:43 pm

  65. Was Timmy meant to be around Sammy’s age in that episode? The way Dean was fond of him and how the kid was carrying a toy made me think of it.

    Comment by San — November 20, 2013 @ 3:37 pm

  66. The timeline is way messed up though. In A Very Supernatural Christmas Sam seemed quite mature even though both he and Dean were supposed to be young. In this episode, we get a way older Dean than in season 3 flashback but Sam seems to be even younger!

    Comment by San — November 20, 2013 @ 3:48 pm

  67. Tammy – I couldn’t agree more with you on your desire to rewatch. I did NOT hate this episode but I have no desire to see it again either. I guess if I found the FBs endearing then the episode may have been more than “just okay” to me.

    ———

    SL – I agree about the unnecessary change in Dean’s characterization. It simply wasn’t needed. I’m curious as to why you didn’t care for it. What did you find ridiculous?

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 20, 2013 @ 5:10 pm

  68. @53- I wasn’t referring to you Lisa.
    I saw NO trashing of Sam at all here. I don’t consider the fact that Sam didn’t seem worried about Dean being gone as trashing him, just OOC.In fact, I thought the episode , although Dean-centric, also featured Sam quite nicely. He had some lovely scenes here, without Dean, and I actually loved him in this episode. Yes the there John bashing, but there has been in Sam-centric episodes as well.
    I Loved Timmy. And the episode really did have a good season 1 feel to it. And the flashbacks to me were quite effective without being overdone. How could you have possibly known what was going on, and why Dean came back there at Sonny’s request, had we NOT seen the flashbacks? I found these flashbacks a hell of a lot more entertaining that the Sam/Amelia garbage of season 8 or even the pointless Purgatory flashbacks. To me, this was the first really good episode in a long time.
    I’m not going to bitch too much about canon here. To me, that’s been trashed much worse than they have here. As for Dean’s characterization, again, he was a KID. A person changes their mind and perspective after a while. We’ve seen this more often with Sam then we have with Dean, and I never thought anything against Sam because of it, only that in season 8, at that late date it seemed strange. But the fact that Sam had changes his mind about wanting normal before that, when he wa younger, even in his twenties, I never had too uch of a problem with. My feeling about Dean was that, at some point, he realized that this was his destiny and it did no good to fight it, so he decided to embrace it, thinking it would be easier for him if he did. And I suspect that’s why he always tried to hammer this point hime to Sam as well.
    As for Dean being more of a parent than a brother to Sam, so what? The point is that Dean loves Sam and will always sacrifice for him.

    Comment by roxi — November 20, 2013 @ 5:51 pm

  69. This episode also emphasized, to me anyway, what I have always suspected of Dean; that given a different set of life circumstances, at heart, he really is a relationship guy, a romantic who would rather have someone special to love than being a swaggering pick up artist just out to get laid. But since that’s all he can have with his life, and he’s a redblooded human guy with physical needs, he simply once in a while scratches that itch.

    Comment by roxi — November 20, 2013 @ 5:55 pm

  70. Lisa1 (#67): I guess for me it is ridiculous when the writers pull these stories out of their hats about things that happened in the boys’ past. Dean went to a boy’s home for 2 months for stealing and that was never mentioned at any time? Not even when they were arrested themselves in different episodes or when the snuck into prison to help their friend kill the ghost/spirit that was haunting it? I just feel that something like this would have been mentioned at some point. And I also have never gotten a hint from Dean that he did not want to hunt like his father. Yes, Sam has shown that since the beginning of the series but Dean, no. I would like to believe that if- as a child- he had been given a chance to have a normal life he would still want it. But Dean has never had that and the character I have watched on this show for 9 seasons has never shown me that he wanted it- not even when it was forced on him.
    That is why I thought the flashback was ridiculous. But I did like the main storyline.

    Comment by SL — November 20, 2013 @ 7:08 pm

  71. @70 – Who would have mentioned it? Sam didn’t know and it probably wasn’t on Dean’s record. Assuming John or Bobby didn’t have someone erase it, he was a juvenile, arrested for petty shoplifting, sent to a boy’s home instead of jail, and then the charges were dropped. Why would that have ever come up with anyone?

    Considering that this isn’t a real timeline with real people, I’d say it’s pretty believable that it wouldn’t have been mentioned before now.

    And I still don’t understand why it’s so hard to believe that there could be a part of Dean that hasn’t always been 100% in love with hunting. That’s been indicated as far back as Season 1 with Skin, as well as Dream a Little Dream and more recently, You can’t handle the truth, where he said how he had wanted to be a father to Ben and live that life, even though he knew he wasn’t any good at it. Giving a character little facets like that (which have always been there anyway) doesn’t make him ridiculous, it makes a better character.

    Comment by Sarah — November 20, 2013 @ 7:43 pm

  72. SL – Great points! Those are all the reasons I disliked it as well. I honestly think FB episodes are more difficult now b/c there is a 9-year history to this show. That history should be respected, not just retconned at a writer’s whim. Unfortunately, we don’t have a writing staff or a showrunner that cares about any of that, so the episodes come off more clunky.

    ——–

    Sarah – I have a problem w/it b/c it changes everything I thought I knew about a character 9 years into the show. It makes all those scenes where Dean speaks of his enthusiasm and love for hunting a lie, IMO. Why should I believe he developed a love for hunting at any point? It seems like he never liked and probably still doesn’t. He hunts b/c he thinks it’s the only thing he can do.

    The fight about Stanford? The fight to keep Sam w/the family? The fight against normal? So, I guess Dean was just really jealous that Sam did what he refused to do. It makes no sense. The show has spent years railing AGAINST Sam for wanting normal, but we now learn Dean has always wanted it too.

    Like I said earlier, the characterization and emotional beats were too off for me. There was no reason Dean had to “hate” hunting. He could have liked it, but still wanted to do something else.

    The episode just didn’t work for me. I feel like this was pointless filler that messed w/the characterization of the characters for no reason. I am sick of the filler episodes b/c unlike in earlier seasons, they’re not that good. All the momentum from the first 2 episodes is gone. This episode wasn’t horrible, but it wasn’t the best either, IMO. We should be moving on w/the mytharc whatever that is this year.

    ——–

    Sorry, Roxi. I thought you were talking to me!

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 21, 2013 @ 3:16 am

  73. I just thought it was a very good episode with good acting from everyone involved. I guess I have to disagree with you Lisa.

    Comment by roxi — November 21, 2013 @ 4:28 am

  74. @ SL #70. In the episode, Dean thanks Sonny for having the charges dismissed, so being arrested for stealing was never on his record. That explains why the police didn’t know during those times Dean was arrested. It doesn’t explain why Sam and Bobby, who Sam was staying with, were unconcerned about Dean having gone missing for two months, unless we are to assume John told Bobby).

    For the record, I didn’t like the writer turning Dean into wanting ‘normal’ and not liking hunting. We have been told for 9 years that Dean was a born hunter and completely bought into hunting.

    The fact is that SPN is never going to be the show it used to be under the days of Kim Manners. The writers just aren’t as talented as the ones the show began with (and again, I exclude Jeremy Carver from this group, because I think he is a good writer). This bunch of writers don’t have the passion for the show that Kripke and Manners had. Instead, they just use it as a sandbox to have fun, to get adolation from a few fans on Twitter, and have their egos stroked because the fans are a part of the “SPN family.”

    But I think the episode worked because despite the failure of Dean’s characterization that was shown, because it was really a coming of age story for Dean. In the episode, Dean became ‘a man,’ because he accepted his responsibility of ‘looking our for Sammy,’ (the scene of him teaching Timmy to shake like a man and the manly handshake he gave to Sonny there at the end after he looked out the window and saw Sam).

    I think, too, that it reminded the audience and Sam that Dean has sacrificed everything for Sam — a shot at a normal life and all his youthful dreams. I also think it foreshadowed things to come. Dean will either have to give up the family he has fought so hard to protect and keep close (the impending blow up), or he will have to think of himself for a change. I’m not sure which direction the show will take.

    So, I didn’t like the role reversal the writer decided to take, but I think the episode did work within the scope of the season.

    I do agree with Lisa1 that the filler episodes are a waste these days. Instead of giving us a look at where one or the other of the brothers are emotionally, they are simply used to either showcase a support character or as something ‘fun,’ (something a writer would think of as a ‘cool’ thing to write). Personally, I would prefer they tell the mytharc story throughout the season, instead of cram it into four or five episodes throughout the season. I think that would force the writers to think about and focus on the story being told (which they more often than not, forget), but that doesn’t work as well for syndication, so it’s not going to happen.

    Comment by Sheri — November 21, 2013 @ 4:39 am

  75. No worries, Roxi :-)

    It would be boring if we all agreed on everything! And for the record, I enjoyed the acting. I thought it was good.

    ——–

    Sheri – I hear your point. I guess I’ve come to expect much better from the writers, and even though the past three years have not been the best, I still expect them to write better.

    With better writers, I’d say those comments from Dean would have meaning later on, but who knows? They may mean something. They may not.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 21, 2013 @ 4:55 am

  76. @ Lisa1: I think we all know the writers are not of the quality that the show deserves. I think of Adam Glass as an immature dolt. I hate to see him named as the writer of an episode, because I know it’s going to be ALL ABOUT SOME KID. In this case, the kid (Timmy) was used appropriately, and I liked the new twist on getting rid of the ghost — that the boy had to step up and tell his mother to leave and that it was done out of love and for his own well-being.

    Who knows if the message of the episode will be carried by any of the other writers. Oh, I long for John Shiban, Catherine Humphries, and Raelle Tucker, or a Marti Noxon (from Buffy). Instead, we get comic book writers who worked with someone connected to the show and are helping a buddy build their resume.

    We have all these balls in the air and the season is a third of the way done. There’s Crowley and Abaddon, Bartholomew and some other angel yet to be determined (the angel wars), Crowley and Cas being human, and the Sam and Dean upcoming blowout. We have Abaddon wanting to possess Dean’s sweet little ass, Zeke doing Dean favors for some reason, and Sam once again playing another character half the time. We have no movement on any of those fronts or any idea of which one of those stories are going to be the mytharc. I’m ready for the show to pick a mytharc and tell that story.

    Just to let everyone know I’ll be off the boards for a couple of weeks. I’m leaving tonight on vacation and will miss the upcoming Jody Mills episode. I’ll be out of the country, so won’t be able to see it or comment on anything until I get back in December.

    Comment by Sheri — November 21, 2013 @ 5:38 am

  77. Sheri: Have a Great Vacation.

    Comment by SL — November 21, 2013 @ 5:58 am

  78. Thank you, SL.

    Comment by Sheri — November 21, 2013 @ 6:16 am

  79. Yeah, have a safe and fun trip :-)

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 21, 2013 @ 6:52 am

  80. new to this board, but had to chime in.

    I don’t have a major problem with this episode, other than the obvious age difference by the actors portraying them, 12 year old Sam did not look 12, the way he was hanging out of the car window- it annoys me that the writers/casting wouldn’t want to be accurate. But, I did like the actor that played young Dean, I think he did a great job.

    A lot of these posts mention the fact that Dean’s storyline is now compromised, now that we know he wasn’t always 100% for his life of hunting. I disagree, I think Dean was a hunter first and foremost because of John (obviously) to help find the thing that killed his mom, and because it was almost the only life he knew. He did it because John demanded it, and after Sam left, he continued (in my opinion) because it was all he had known. I think he would have thrown himself into hunting after Sam left out of obligation to John as the only son left and as a way to bury the hurt and need to protect Sam which he could no longer do.

    16 year old Dean debating whether to ask John to wait for him to take Robin (?) to the dance? totally believable. what 16 year old wouldn’t? the difference is I think most 16 year olds would have asked, but Dean didn’t, knowing John would say no. I liked the emotion young Dean showed in that moment, like he was realizing all he could have, and chose family, which is ‘Dean’ in a nutshell.

    Is any one else irritated that Sam questions Dean all the time, Dean blows him off, and Sam just takes it at face value? Like- yell! Have an argument! I’d really like to see Sam demand answers, because it makes me think Sam doesn’t care sometimes, and that’s what upsets me! Throw a punch, or something, like the old days. Id like to see Kevin try to intervene, that’d be great too.

    I am having trouble with Cas this season, I still love him, but want him in more episodes, want Dean to tell him about Zeke (why wouldn’t he have already? they used to share secrets). I also really want him to get his grace back, b/c I miss his Angel Of the Lord voice. I want Cas at the bunker, Charlie to stay in OZ, Sam to find out about Zeke (and not abandon Dean for it), Crowley to become human, and for Dean to kick Abbadon’s ass, because I just don’t like her!

    Comment by sarahd — November 21, 2013 @ 7:21 am

  81. To be honest, I’ve only seen the previous seasons once, so I can’t recall every detail as well as a lot of people who are commenting.

    But as far as the “Dean was always portrayed as loving hunting and now this shows he actually hated it!” feelings go, I’m assuming his opinion changed.

    At that moment, when he was 16, perhaps he did hate it.

    But when the series starts, he’s what – 26? In those ten years, his feelings could have changed.

    In a less dramatic sense, think of a kid who has to move, perhaps because of divorce. As a child/teen, perhaps you hate or regret that moment when you’re leaving someone you love behind. Fast forward a decade into that person’s future, and perhaps they’ll see the move as being for the best and/or what was necessary.

    Comment by cynicalpink — November 21, 2013 @ 10:28 am

  82. @Sheri and Lisa – can you actually point to quotes where Dean said he loved hunting? I’ve been trying to think of any and I can’t. You guys seem pretty sure of this and I’m wondering if there’s something you have in mind.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — November 21, 2013 @ 11:05 am

  83. @Sarahd – I totally agree with you – I want more Cas. I understand missing his angelvoice, but I don’t want him to go back to an angel, because I’d miss his human smile.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — November 21, 2013 @ 11:07 am

  84. Everyone is seeing Dean’s comment about ‘having something for yourself, even if it hurts the ones you love’ as being out of character.
    I’m thinking it’s foreshadowing. Either it’s about Dean, who has to choose between Cas and Sam, and chooses Cas for the first time, because he thinks Cas needs him more.
    Or it’s about Cas, who has to choose between being and angel and helping his family or staying human and with Dean.
    Either way, tough choices ahead.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — November 21, 2013 @ 11:09 am

  85. @ t1gerlilly #82. I don’t have a lot of time, but I would point to It’s a Terrible Life

    ZACHARIAH
    To prove to you that the path you’re on is truly in your blood. You’re a hunter. Not because your dad made you, not because God called you back from hell, but because it is what you are. And you love it. You’ll find your way to it in the dark every single time and you’re miserable without it. Dean, let’s be real here. You’re good at this….

    In No Exit:

    JO
    You love the job.

    DEAN
    Yeah, but I’m a little twisted.

    I haven’t enough time to give you more, but throughout the series, it’s been the subtext that Dean was a born hunter, and several episodes have had Dean saying that hunting is important and it’s what the Winchesters do. Even the Pilot depicted Dean as a committed hunter.

    @ Sarah and t1gerlilly: Misha is in a minimum of 17 episodes this season. Misha said that in an early interview.

    @ t1gerlilly: I think it was foreshadowing, too, but I think Sam and Cas will kick Dean out or Dean will leave them and go off and do angel stuff.

    @ cynicalpink @81: The characterization issue comes up with the fact that Dean has always been ‘a born hunter’ (see above) and the contrast in the Dean in this episode, age 16, and the Dean in After School Special, age 16. It comes from the fact that Dean has always been a womanizer, leaving Sam at Plunky’s when he was small so he could go off with girls.

    It didn’t bother me enough to ruin the episode, because of the reasons I’ve stated in my previous posts, but I definitely understand the feels that characterization was off.

    @ Sarah re: Cas. Cas’ human story bores me stiff. It’s been done before and he looks stupid, given that he has watched humans for 2000 years. I get that he is experiencing human feelings this season, and that is supposed to be the difference, but I don’t watch the show to see someone play at being human, and I don’t think Misha can carry an episode on his own, so the whole thing doesn’t interest me.

    As far as Sam not demanding answers, Sam knows Dean well enough not to push him until he’s ready to be pushed. Dean would just get ticked off. I find the whole thing quite in character.

    That’s it. I’m out of time.

    Comment by Sheri — November 21, 2013 @ 12:03 pm

  86. Finally watched the ep. I can honestly say it’s the first one this season I’ve enjoyed. I actually liked Sam and liked that he finally said thank you, acknowledging all his brother has sacrificed for him. I liked young Dean, the actor did a good job at mimicing Jensen’s body language and expressions. He was cute with the girl, tho I believe his awkwardness stemmed from his surprise that she initiated the kiss, not that it was his first. At 16? He may not have been Casanova Dean yet, but I find it hard to believe he’d never kissed a girl. He never answered her one way or another, so I’m sticking with that.

    I also think some people are being a bit too harsh on John. Yes, he did leave him there, but the way I see it, it was for a dual purpose. Although Dean should’ve never been burden by having to care for his brother since a young age, he was responsible for him and had accepted the role. Losing the food money affected not only him, but Sam also, and John needed to teach him that his responsibility to his family — to Sam –came first, however unfair that was for a kid to have to learn. But I also think that he left Dean there to give him a break from that burden. Like Dean said, John found him right away, but since Sam was safe with Bobby, ad he knew Dean was in a safe environment, he left Dean there — with no responsibilities — to give him a chance to be a kid. I will always believe John loved them, and never meant to cause them hardship, but was in a position where he had to do the things he did to keep them safe. Remember, he knew about Sam’s connection to the YED, so a lot of his actions were motivated by that. Giving Dean a couple months free of the burden he shouldered was a small way he could help him while still teaching him what mattered.

    All in all, a nice episode with a couple of canon missteps, but my expectations are so dramatically lowered for this show and its current crop of writers that the ‘rugaru’ mistake isn’t enough to kill it for me.

    I hope Sam’s lesson lasts, but the legacy of contrived drama these last two seasons leaves me with little doubt he will forget everything he just learned about Dean and go back to his self-righteous ways. But it was a nice hour while it lasted.

    Comment by SueP — November 21, 2013 @ 12:13 pm

  87. Finally? I don’t think there really was a lesson to be learned. Sam said in 2.22 All Hell Breaks Loose that Dean sacrifices everything for him. Maybe the writers forgot about that though. Nevertheless, Dean’s opinion is the one that counts and he didn’t really want to acknowledge Sam’s words partly because he doesn’t want Sam to feel he is in debt to him although I’m sure Sam’s heartfelt words made him feel good.

    Comment by San — November 21, 2013 @ 12:50 pm

  88. SueP

    Your last paragraph highlights the issue that I have with this episode and the timing of it. And the writing of Sam’s pov in general vs the writing of Dean’s pov.

    This is not new information. We know that Dean sacrificed for Sam, Sam knows this too. To me this comes across as how dare Sam ever have a negative thought about Dean (even if he did put an angel in you without your consent.) Timing, folks. Sam again gets to be the selfish bastard who doesn’t appreciate his brother enough and learn his lesson again. Tedious.
    All the sometime hurtful things that Dean said about Sam leaving to find normal now have a ring of jealously to me, Thanks for that, Show.

    Cynical? Yep. But I am cynical toward the writers. I appreciate both characters and actors.

    Meanwhile we have nothing from Sam about how

    Comment by oh fandom — November 21, 2013 @ 1:06 pm

  89. things affect him,

    Comment by oh fandom — November 21, 2013 @ 1:09 pm

  90. Dean has been revealed to be a big hypocrite.

    Sam has thanked Dean before, even way back in season 1. How about Dean thanking Sam for a change?

    I didn’t learn anything new about Sam in this episode. Please, can we have one Samcentric episode? I’ve had enough of Dean’s POV.

    Comment by very bored Sam fan — November 21, 2013 @ 1:46 pm

  91. I saw Dean’s reaction to Sam being thankful as “Don’t mention it” = thank you for saying thanks but I don’t need it, I didn’t do it for that.

    John’s methods on another kid could have turned that child into resenting their little brother (to a devastating degree) but I don’t think the show has ever hinted that Dean resented Sam for having to raise him and be there for him at all times.

    @ 90. What do you mean by “Dean has been revealed to be a big hypocrite”?

    Comment by San — November 21, 2013 @ 2:03 pm

  92. I mean with regards to wanting normal. He never understood this desire in Sam and now suddenly, we find Dean feels the same way.

    Comment by very bored Sam fan — November 21, 2013 @ 2:09 pm

  93. If Sam is self righteous, he learned it from his big bro. :) Who can hold a grudge like Dean Winchester? Who plays God like he does? Who demands the absolute truth from the people around him but conceals it from them when it suits him?

    I love the guy but he is not St Dean nor should he be. How boring would that be. We root for these guys despite or maybe because of their flaws.

    Comment by beth — November 21, 2013 @ 2:11 pm

  94. @90- My feeling is that we’ve had a heck of a lot more Sam-centric episodes over the course of 8 seasons so why is it such a horrible thing to have some Dean centric ones finally this season but I’m so tired of being insulted for expressing that point of view.
    The next episode is Sam centric.
    I think the fact that Dean has given his WHOLE LIFE for Sam since he was a small child, giving up any and all dreams he may have had for himself is saying thank you loud and clear.

    Comment by roxi — November 21, 2013 @ 2:18 pm

  95. #90 I agree this season hasn’t had much of Sam’s pov since episode 1 when he was choosing to die in his head. We’ve mostly had Dean, Cas and one epi of Charlie. The season isn’t over yet though. Maybe next week we see Sam start to question what’s going on. Jared said in an interview that Sam does think something is up.

    And yeah, Dean does have his moments of hypocrisy but Sam isn’t perfect either but we love them away. :)

    Comment by beth — November 21, 2013 @ 2:33 pm

  96. My view on the Dean centric/Sam centric debate that seems to be going on here is- Carver has front loaded the season with Dean centric type episodes because the second half is going to be all Sam and especially all Cas all the time. So you gripers -just hold on to your panties. You gonna get Sam and Cas all the time starting this Tuesday.

    Comment by animal — November 21, 2013 @ 2:37 pm

  97. @#88. Exactly my point. Sam is written to fit the contrived criteria they need at the time. I liked this Sam. Can’t say I like Sam most of the last two seasons. He says one thing one episode then does the exact opposite the next. Like Dean, I’m getting whiplash. And for the record, Dean did not put an angel in Sam without his consent. That can’t be done. Sam agreed to the hope Ezekiel presented (as Dean) but it was still Sam’s choice to jump at the thread of hope ‘Dean’ offered. Dean is guilty of lying about it– or at least not letting Sam in on the secret– and I have no problem with Sam getting mad about that. But is it really something that is enough to erase a lifetime I completely understand Dean’s motivations and actually agree it was the only way to assure that Sam would give it a chance and live. I’m just fed up with the contrived drama and reactions. It would be refreshing if, instead of going ballistic about it all, Sam would remember what he learned here and actually understand why Dean hid the truth from him. To protect him. Because that’s what Dean’s life has been all about. It would show growth for Sam and continuity, but history shows that a different Sam will show up next week and the next and any growth or understanding will be jettisoned to fit the plot. That’s why I stopped watching this show live. Too frustrating.

    Like I said, this is the first episode I liked this season. I liked Sam in it which hasn’t been the case much lately. Not apologizing for it. Just how it is. The writers are nowhere near the quality they used to be and it shows mostly through continuity and characterization. That’s been traded for shock value and an lame angel story. That’s how they want to write it now, so if I can actually enjoy the once great characters on my once favorite show for at least one episode, I’m thrilled.

    Comment by SueP — November 21, 2013 @ 2:40 pm

  98. I think that Sam is aware and became even more aware of how Dean has sacrificed for him. In a way it is like a parent and child. Until we have children of our own we don’t really understand what our parents sacrificed for us.

    Obviously most parents are going to want their children to go off and be their own person and make their dreams come true but Sam is told that he is abandoning his family and is selfish for being happy to get away from the hunting life. This has always bothered me . I truly believe that Dean wants Sam to be happy and safe but there is this part of him that sees Sam leaving him as a betrayal and that Sam owes to him and some in the fandom buy into that. This is so not healthy thinking but it is the Winchesters so…

    Comment by oh fandom — November 21, 2013 @ 2:46 pm

  99. @98 Re: I truly believe that Dean wants Sam to be happy and safe but there is this part of him that sees Sam leaving him as a betrayal and that Sam owes to him and some in the fandom buy into that.

    I agree and I feel like Dean can’t help it. He could haven taken off at 18 and left a 14-year-old Sam to rot but he didn’t. I don’t think this side of Dean ever went away (1.16 Shadow):

    Sam: But there’s got to be somethin’ that you want for yourself

    Dean: Yeah, I don’t want you to leave the second this thing’s over, Sam. – - – Why do you think I drag you everywhere? – - – You and me and Dad — I want us… I want us to be together again. I want us to be a family again.

    Sam: Dean. We are a family. I’d do anything for you. But things will never be the way they were before.

    Dean: Could be.

    Sam: I don’t want them to be. I’m not going to live this life forever. Dean, when this is all over, you’re gonna have to let me go my own way.

    -> Dean doesn’t say anything to that.

    Comment by San — November 21, 2013 @ 3:21 pm

  100. Yeah. Dean has been trying to keep his family together since John and Mary started having problems. Dean needs family – but trying his life is so isolating that he’s held on to Sam too tight and in a way that’s not healthy. But he has Cas as family. Family that he chose and that chose him.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — November 21, 2013 @ 4:13 pm

  101. Did I mention that some of my favorite scenes were the ones with Sam, finding out surprising little details about Dean’s time there?? Plus his reaction to Dean being flustered about Robin in the diner. Also, Sam was the one to make the connection between the murders and Timmy.
    Watching the episode again, the only real John bashing I’m seeing is the “Let him Rot” comment, which seemed harsh even for John. I suspect that the reason John left him there for two months was because he did depend on Dean so heavily to watch over Sam, so he wanted to hammer home the point that he couldn’t be so careless with the food money.
    A couple of things; 135lbs? Dean was a skinny kid!
    And how did Sonny know what they do? Did he and Dean keep in contact over the years?
    Still, loved the episode. Loved Timmy and I also liked Sonny a lot.

    Comment by roxi — November 21, 2013 @ 4:16 pm

  102. And amid all the complaints about the age retcons, myself for one, I would like the show to clarify what their ages are NOW.

    Comment by roxi — November 21, 2013 @ 4:27 pm

  103. @roxi– I look at it as the cop saying “let him rot in jail”as retaliation for Dean giving him the shiner. Doesn’t sound like something John would say — do, yes, but say, no. So I’m thinking maybe it was just a bitter cop paraphrasing to get back at a kid that got the better of him. Since I didn’t hear it from John, I’m not just gonna believe the cop was repeating him verbatim. He was probably embellishing for effect. At least that’s how I’m looking at it.

    Comment by SueP — November 21, 2013 @ 4:48 pm

  104. @roxi: Really, you have encountered primarily anti-Dean sites. I’ve never seen a one. I can’t even find a Sammy-friendly site (please direct me). If you want a bona fide “love Dean; HATE Sam site, see Innsmouth Press. Anyone who has anything in the least positive to say about Sam is eaten alive! Go forth and enjoy.

    Comment by RS — November 21, 2013 @ 6:50 pm

  105. I don’t think roxi would like that site due to the Sam hate there since she loves Sam as well. I’m a Dean girl through and through and can’t stomach Innsmouth Press because of the way Sam’s character is bashed there.

    Comment by Twinster — November 21, 2013 @ 7:33 pm

  106. @104- What makes you think I want that? I NEVER said I wanted to see Sam hate! How insulting!
    Just because someone stands up to the Dean hate and expresses their feeling that Dean hasn’t gotten the sdame character consideration as Sam does NOT mean that person hates Sam! I’m so damn sick of that accusation!

    Comment by roxi — November 21, 2013 @ 7:40 pm

  107. Are you also gonna accuse posters here who have complained about how they think Sam is unfairly treated of wanting to see Dean hate? Or is that always ok with you?

    Comment by roxi — November 21, 2013 @ 7:44 pm

  108. animal- I didn’t realize Cas was going to be in so many episodes. I’ve been a little disappointed in his human character, so I hope things pick up with him and the other angels.

    sheri- I agree about Dean brushing off Sam’s questions as being in character, I guess I don’t understand how someone would be willing to be shut down at every turn, and not demand answers as some point.

    OK- someone please fill me in on the rugaru stuff- it seems like any time they need a monster for explaining a previous hunt, its a rugaru. I swear they’ve said it at least 4 times in past seasons..whats up with that?

    Comment by sarahd — November 21, 2013 @ 10:18 pm

  109. @roxi. I think maybe John had an important mission to go to and he wouldn’t have been able to take Dean anyways. When Dean f*cked up he had to punish him but it just happened kind of conveniently that Dean was to spend some time in jail / in a boy’s home. I’m sure John expected Dean to stew in his own juices all that time. I agree that John was so harsh because Dean is more than his right-hand man and Sam was in grave danger. If he can’t trust Dean to feel totally responsible for Sam, to understand how dependable Sam is then he has to make sure that Dean will never make that mistake again. Of course I can’t help but think Dean was speculating with money because there wasn’t necessarily enough of it :/

    What bothers me about the age difference is that it changes the tone of the relationship. In A Very Supernatural Christmas Sam and Dean seemed very much like brothers. Dean was the one who took care of things (left the motel room mad but when he came back he just said he went to get Sam dinner or when Sam cried he tried to comfort him by saying ” It’ll all be better when you wake up. You’ll see. Promise.”) but I didn’t get the feeling that Dean was some sort of substitute parent to Sam.

    Now I loved the end scene of Dean looking outside the window and seeing Sam but because Dean was pretty much an adult and Sam was still a little boy it had more of parental vibe to it. Like when Dean can’t help but laugh when he sees Sam playing, it reminds me of how an adult might look at (their) child and be comforted by the innocence of a child.

    Comment by San — November 22, 2013 @ 2:15 am

  110. RS – your experiencee has been mine when it comes to websites. I haven’t run across any where Dean is absolutely HATED on each day, for every action, and by every poster like I have for Sam.

    I think some sites get unfairly accused of being “Sam love” sites like TWFB simply b/c the posters don’t hate on everything Sam does and try to understand his character.

    The writer for Innsmouth Press is a regular poster on IMDb – the place where I see the most Sam/Jared hate so it’s not surprising her blog is the same.

    ——–

    I like the idea of John being preoccupied with a hunt when this all went down, and that being the primary reason he dumped Sam with Bobby and didn’t go get Dean. To me, that makes more sense than John leaving Dean b/c Dean gambled away the food money.

    Plus, Dean was shown to be incredibly mature in this episode. He put Sam above his own needs so I highly doubt he just frivolously gambled away the food money.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 22, 2013 @ 8:15 am

  111. Gee Lisa, you could have stuck up for me against RS false accusation.
    I’m glad you haven’t seen Dean hate sites, but I have.
    I didn’t go to IMDb because I DON’T want to see Sam hate.I disagree about TWFB, I have indeed seen Dean hate there.

    Comment by roxi — November 22, 2013 @ 9:46 am

  112. @ #98 Oh fandom, I completely agree with you. It IS like a parent/child relationship, in the way that Dean constantly orders Sam around (sometimes with a mere gesture), and more importantly, in the way Dean makes important decisions for Sam he has no business making, as if Sam were 5 years old or something.

    Sometimes the best thing you can do for your loved ones is to let them go to live their life (or accept death) as they wish. It’s also the hardest thing for parents because we love our kids so much and want to keep them close, and safe. Maybe that’s Dean’s story this season, which is the same as season 5. He has to stop thinking of Sam as his kid and start accepting him as an equal and let him make his own decisions, even if they hurt Dean.

    I think that “Sometimes you have to do what’s good for you, even if it hurts the ones you love” refers to what Sam has been trying to do for years and Dean has been unable to accept.

    About the ep. if Sam was 12 then, was it before or after he was so miserable he ran away to Flagstaff? And how does that jive with the little kid playing with his toy airplane? Those writers!

    I’m really worried about the Zeke fallout. I don’t remember who wrote that, but the idea that Sam consented to the possession is ridiculous to me. He accepted Dean’s “plan” on blind trust and I’m sure never expected to end up as an angel condom. Dean himself said that Sam would rather die than be possessed. How could Sam even imagine that Dean would betray him like that? And how long until Sam can ever trust Dean again? UGH. I hate it when they’re fighting!

    Comment by JuliaG — November 22, 2013 @ 10:36 am

  113. The first part of the season has been Dean-centric IMO. I’m not opposed to that at all. Jensen can carry an episode, even when he’s forced to sexually eye a poodle. My only problem is that Dean doesn’t have much of a story except as it relates to Sam or Castiel. Hopefully before the series ends, others will have a story built around reaction to Dean’s storyline. I miss Sam in anything more than the angel-inside story. It has really been a one-note story for him. The Winchester story has really not moved much beyond episode one, the only arguably Sam-Dean-centric episode of the season, and we’ve been through almost one-third of the season. Surely even these writers will have more of a Dean-Sam story than the contrived drama of, “Will Sam be mad at Dean for saving his life?” I hope so. And the Castiel fish-out-of-water stuff, now 5 years old and counting is just egregiously boring. Never thought I’d feel sorry for Collins, but surely the writers can give him more than the endless repetition of that now stale and stinking fish-out-of -water story. There really hasn’t been a truly memorable episode this season IMO.

    Comment by CaseyT — November 22, 2013 @ 11:13 am

  114. maybe the ages during this episode are a small thing but making Dean 14 and Sam 10 makes much more sense. They changed it during post production because they thought the Dean actor looked too old. I would have bought him as 14. I used to teach in middle school and boys that big are not uncommon. I think at 12 Sam would be past the airplane playing stage–maybe he might be building models. After Robin, Dean learns that steady relationships are not going to happen with his lifestyle so he starts to play the field. A couple of years later at 16 he fully commits to the hunting life after the famous werewolf hunt.

    Anyway, that’s my head canon.

    Comment by oh fandom — November 22, 2013 @ 11:17 am

  115. Oh, sorry, Roxi!

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 22, 2013 @ 11:29 am

  116. I thought RS was using the general you. I didn’t think he/she was specifically referring to you, Roxi!

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 22, 2013 @ 11:31 am

  117. I see Dean’s story as another version of things we have seen him struggle with before.

    In 2.22:

    Sam: How could you do that?
    Dean: Don’t get mad at me. Don’t you do that. I had to. I had to look out for you. That’s my job.

    Or in 3.01:

    Sam: How could you make that deal, Dean?
    Dean: ‘Cause I couldn’t live with you dead. Couldn’t do it.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if we got similar dialogue soon.

    I agree that one of the big reasons why Dean is ready to go so far to save Sam is because he has been more than just a brother to Sam, he raised Sam in many ways.

    Comment by San — November 22, 2013 @ 11:38 am

  118. @JuliaG: Excellent post. I agree with everything you said 100%.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 22, 2013 @ 2:07 pm

  119. Have you guys seen the sneak peek for rock and a hard place?. OMG- I am laughing so hard and crying and feel -just no words. Porn-that’s what it is its porn> Gawd Jensen -I love this man -I love Jared too but I don’t think Jared could pull off what Jensen does in the sneak peek. Gawd. I could watch these throw back episodes forever. To Hell with the angels/demons-the story never makes sense anyway. But these throw backs gawd I love them.

    Comment by animal — November 22, 2013 @ 2:49 pm

  120. First I just heard the video and man it had no right to be that hot :D Poor Sammy having to hear that. The way he just looks at his brother in the end eyes blinking and mouth hanging open :) I love those smiles Dean seems to have in this episode!

    Comment by San — November 22, 2013 @ 3:20 pm

  121. @San-yea right??? lol. Jared does do a terrific job doing the “Dean-TMI-” look!!

    Comment by animal — November 22, 2013 @ 3:26 pm

  122. That’s right! He plays the straight man well to Jensen’s performance. What an amazing thing they got cast for the roles.

    Comment by San — November 22, 2013 @ 3:34 pm

  123. It’s a Sam centric episode, and it looks like a good one. But damn, that scene. Dean is just turning everyone on, even Sam! Gorgeous guy detailing what he likes about sex! And the look on Jared’s face is hilarious too! This HAS to be where Dean finally gets that ‘action” Jared was talking about.
    Happy Thanksgiving to me!

    Comment by roxi — November 22, 2013 @ 5:07 pm

  124. Ok, maybe it wasn’t turning Sam on like I thought, probably just him being embarrassed LOL. But it gave me an excuse to watch it again. And probably 100 more times until Tuesday.

    Comment by roxi — November 22, 2013 @ 5:14 pm

  125. @120- Poor Sam. If you recall he walked in on his brother once while he was in the middle of a three-way, right during the height of the action.
    And you just know Dean will be a dick about the chastity thing, which is just gonna make the pictures in Sam’s head harder to block out LOL.

    Comment by roxi — November 22, 2013 @ 5:18 pm

  126. I don’t know roxi-though I would looovvvveee to see Dean finally-finally get some action I really kinda think that Jared read the script for that episode where Cas had sex. And didn’t realize that it would be Cas. You know how people read things but don’t really SEE what they are reading in context. But I truly hope Dean gets some in this episode with a PRETTY woman. Robin was ugly imo. Not that it should matter -I’m just sayin. Sorry if I just offended someone.

    Comment by animal — November 22, 2013 @ 5:19 pm

  127. Roxi, where did you get that this is a Sam episode? I heard it was Dean-centered again.

    Animal – You better believe that Jared could pull off a scene like that. Comedy is actually what he does best. (remember the herpies speech?) It would be nice if the writers would switch it off sometimes and have Jensen acting as the straight man to Jared’s comedy. In a way it might even be funnier because it would be quite a shock to hear Sam talk like that!

    Comment by JuliaG — November 22, 2013 @ 5:25 pm

  128. @127- How is it Dean centered? It focuses on Sam working with Jodi! Dean goes missing!
    I honestly, with all die respect, feel the SPN has ALWAYS given Sam, overall, much more focus than Dean, so I’m not understanding some of these comments. Why is it so bad, for Dean to FINALLY be getting some of the attention that Sam has always gotten? I’m quite sure that the focus will be all on Sam and Cas again soon. just like last season.
    And Dean’s story is not doing him any favors. On many sites I’ve read a lot of comments on how Dean is a dick.Sorry Lisa, but I do disagree with you about the main site runner at WFB, I of course was not surprised to find out that she didn’t like Bad Boys I feel mainly because it was about Dean. I believe it it had been about Sam, she would have had a glowing review. I’m just going by all the things I’ve always read coming from her.
    As for comedy, I feel both Jared and Jensen can comedy equally well.

    Comment by roxi — November 22, 2013 @ 6:09 pm

  129. @126- I didn’t think Robin was ugly. I actually liked the fact that she was cute, believable, rather than super hot. Just because Jared and Jensen are uncommonly attractive, must Sam and Dean only be attracted to women who are gorgeous? I think it would have been refreshing to see a super hot guy like Dean have a romance with a cute but more average looking woman. And I also liked the fact that she wasn’t a super thin stick figure, but had a believable, attractive, womanly body.

    Comment by roxi — November 22, 2013 @ 6:15 pm

  130. OMG! The clip! :D

    Comment by Tammy — November 22, 2013 @ 7:57 pm

  131. @roxi-see I don’t assign reality traits to characters on a TV show that I watch. I know a lot of you do. But on a show like supernatural I want to see certain things. I want my heros to be good looking strong men. That’s why I absolutely HATED Dean in seasons 7 and 8-especially 8-they took the manly hero -the kickass/badass that I loved and turned him into something totally opposite. This season Dean is much better-for now anyway. Secondly I want my manly hero to have a sexy, pretty, female as the object of affection. I don’t want political correctness at all-nowhere near my hero. Same goes for Sam. Dean is my human hero.-Sam is my supernatural hero. I want the same for him. Manly and pretty lady. So an average woman as an object of affection for Dean just don’t cut it for me. She has to be good looking.

    @JuliaG-Yes I know Jared can do comedy-but Jensen didn’t do comedy in the clip-he was being the straight man -it was the action around him that made the scene funny. Jensen has a Swag about him-a sexual tension or aura around him that makes that scene work beautifully. Its why Jensen has chemistry with just about anybody that he works with. Jared doesn’t have that swag or sexual tension/aura. imo.

    Comment by animal — November 22, 2013 @ 9:17 pm

  132. @roxi #123 I didn’t wanna be the first one to say it but yeah it came across a little bit like that because his reaction wasn’t unlike the womens’. XD

    Oh yeah recently I saw 3.01 and I’ve always thought that the beginning scene was kind of odd. You know how Sam is waiting in the car facing the window, Dean actually acknowledging his brother by looking outside and giving him the thumbs up, how Sam watches some shadows. :D

    @animal. I dunno, Sam was pretty big and bad in season 6… :)

    Comment by San — November 23, 2013 @ 2:54 am

  133. Haha yes! Sam’s reaction DID seem like the ladies. Very funny. Guess he was just embarrassed to death. And the women! Can’t stop laughing and playing it over and over again.

    Comment by Tammy — November 23, 2013 @ 3:26 am

  134. Yep, like how he raises his eyebrows when Dean is turning his way. :D

    Comment by San — November 23, 2013 @ 4:40 am

  135. Roxi, Alice has said she didn’t particularly care for the last 4-5 episodes. I don’t think she hated the episodes, but she was left w/a “meh” feeling, which I completely understand. In her review of “Bad Boys,” she said she was feeling apathetic about the show, in general, and that it really wasn’t sparking her interest. That’s why she’s going to stop reviewing until an episode actually sparks her interest. I don’t think she disliked BB b/c it focused on Dean. She said the episode didn’t teach us anything new about Dean. We all know Dean will give up everything for Sam.

    As I’ve shared all throughout this thread, I do think they messed around w/Dean’s characterization unnecessarily w/the big reveal that he hates hunting just as much as Sam. I do think we know Dean will sacrifice for Sam. We know he’s done that all his life. We didn’t need a reminder. I didn’t get any “good feels” from this episode. I thought the episode was fine. I didn’t hate, but it also didn’t “WOW” me.

    From reading Alice’s review, I got the feeling that, like me, she wants to show to move on with whatever main story they are trying to tell. It is my opinion that the filler of now doesn’t compare to the filler of yesteryear. I would love for the story to move forward, but all we’re getting is filler – mediocre filler at that IMO – until the mid-season finale.

    Honestly, this show has become very formulaic. One could watch the first two episodes, the mid-season finale, the next two episodes, and then the last three episodes and not have missed anything.

    Nothing much has happened on this show since the second episode, and we’re moving onto episode 8, right? It looks to be as equally pointless as the previous 6 episodes. Maybe it will wildly entertaining. I can only hope so.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 23, 2013 @ 6:16 am

  136. This episode showed the great love of Dean for his brother. It was kind of sad. It showed that Dean has given up so many things for his family and specially Sam. It was really sad that Dean could not have an ordinary life like the others. It made me really sad.And I hated John one more time.

    Comment by serenity — November 23, 2013 @ 9:00 am

  137. I really hope that the second half of this season is more Sam focused. Otherwise, I don’t think I can continue to watch. The best seasons of SPN were 1 and 2.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 23, 2013 @ 9:19 am

  138. @135. I totally agree, Lisa1. There are quite a few people who didn’t like this episode, and it has nothing to do with which brother they prefer, if any. Should we assume that all those who didn’t like it are Sam fans who only didn’t like it because it was Dean centric? If that is the case then the logical assumption is that those who liked it are all Dean fans who only liked it because it was Dean centric.

    Comment by Elle — November 23, 2013 @ 9:26 am

  139. I didn’t care for this episode because it was nothing but a a giant retcon. Dean wanting normal and hating hunting? So who was the guy that we saw in the first there seasons? Was that all a lie? No, it’s just a huge retcon to give Dean more angst. We already KNOW that Dean is willing to sacrifice anything and everything for Sam. This was nothing new. So why do they need to create another hour of an episode to show that? They need to give us some insight on the Ezekiel/Sam situation. Give Sam some POV, please. Sam is always the myth arc and I’m tired of it. He’s become a plot device. Also, they need to have some sort of a solid storyline. Because this season, THERE IS NONE. This season is a mess. I hope that changes in the second half. Otherwise, I don’t know why I’m watching.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 23, 2013 @ 9:50 am

  140. Have just watched the ep and Dean hating hunting wasn’t what I took away here. Sure he disliked hunting for that moment in time, but i didn’t get the feeling that he hated it outright all the time. I took it as hating the type of life he way living with his father. Not hunting perse JMO

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 23, 2013 @ 11:29 am

  141. I finally saw the ep last night and I absolutely loved it! Never once did I see any Sam bashing. I never saw Dean as hating hunting. I mean, crimany, he was only 16years old. How often do teenagers change their minds? Especially in the moment? Even Robin swore she hated and would never would take over her father’s diner, but low and behold, as an adult, she loves it now! Teenagers are allowed to grow and change their outlook. He may have also been put out by John’s putting him in that boys home so he may have been reacting to that. I really enjoyed looking at Dean’s past. Absolutely loved the ghost story, and Dean’s interaction with Timmy. Sam wad great here as well. I really liked seeing Sam seeing Dean in a new light. Sam was understanding and heart felt. I really love this Sam. This was my favorite episode of the season. It had a great vibe of season one or two.

    Comment by Twinster — November 23, 2013 @ 1:57 pm

  142. @137- Again Caitlin, it sounds to me like you want everything to always be about Sam, or you’re not interested.
    8 seasons of Sam having all the main storylines, any real romances, most of the importance, and the first season comes along that has given Dean a few episodes and of course, you hate it. Imagine what it’s been like to be a Dean fan all these years while all important stories and great acting opportunities have always gone to Sam while Dean has been relegated to the supporting role.
    That in no way means I don’t like Sam, I do. Or that I want SPN to suddenly be all about Dean because I don’t. Believe me if a Dean fan had the same attitude that you do, we would have given up watching a long time ago. But to many of us, this is the first season where it hasn’t been “Samnatural”. I’m sorry that you hate Dean so much.
    Take heart though, I’m pretty sure that soon it will be all about Sam and Cas yet again.

    Comment by roxi — November 23, 2013 @ 6:03 pm

  143. For me, the best season was 3, because after EVERYTHING being all about Sam in seasons 1 and 2, finally, we had a season with equal importance and focus for both brothers.

    Comment by roxi — November 23, 2013 @ 6:14 pm

  144. I still haven’t seen any of y’all come up with any canon proof that Dean loves hunting. Sheri brought up something that Zachariah said – but Zach was always hopeless at getting Dean to be Michael’s vessel because he never understood Dean. Not how to tempt him or how to threaten him. (Tho admittedly Dean is a tough nut to crack).

    To me hunting was never about hunting to Dean – it was about keeping his family together. It’s what he knows, and he’s good at it – but honestly – what are his other choices? Working on vintage cars maybe – or working construction – though the show never seemed to take in the fact that with the bubble bursting in real estate plus plenty of unskilled labor available – Dean, like a lot of blue-collar guys who didn’t go into the trades, has really limited options.

    I’d like to debunk another clichéd point of collective wisdom – that Dean would give up anything for Sam. Because that’s not really true. Every time Sam gets a little bit of normal, Dean drags him away from it and lays on a major guilt trip for why Sam has to do what Dean wants him to do, because Dean’s life and his priorities come first.
    It’s true that Dean always tries to protect Sam, and that he always wants him in his life – but always on Dean’s terms, in the life he’s comfortable with, where he’s the confident older brother. Plus he’s always ‘sacrificing’ for Sam in ways that Sam never asked for or specifically told him not to do, like selling his soul.
    It’s funny, because I think a lot of the bi-bro fans have a lot of headcanon about the brother bond and the specific characterizations of the brothers. Like if they just got along and went hunting they’d be happy – when that really isn’t the case if you actually look at what is going on in the show.
    But then again, the writers might know that and be deliberately be poking the bear, the way they are with Destiel fans.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — November 23, 2013 @ 6:52 pm

  145. Sadly, I just read where Rob Benedict, who plays Chuck, had a stroke after the Toronto Con. and Richard ( Gabriel), Jensen, and Jared took him to the hospital. He’s doing ok now I hear, thank God.
    I didn’t think he was that old.

    Comment by roxi — November 23, 2013 @ 6:53 pm

  146. @144- I disagree that Dean refuses to let Sam have normal. Twice last season he stated otherwise, when he tried to get Sam to go back to Amelia, and second, when he wanted to do the trials because his biggest dream was for Sam to have a normal life with a wife and kids. Dean wanted nothing for himself.
    We also saw how happy he was in his fantasy world in WIAWSNB, to see Sam going to law school and getting engaged. So we have been shown, from waht I can see, that Dean isn’t the selfish jerk you’re making him out to be, that he really does want Sam to be happy.
    And just because Sam didn’t ask for those sacrifices Dean made for him makes them worthless?

    Comment by roxi — November 23, 2013 @ 7:00 pm

  147. Roxi – Dean never tried to get him to go back to Amelia- he just said he wouldn’t fight him on it, because he wouldn’t be any good to Dean as a hunting partner if his heart wasn’t in it and it would get one of them killed.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — November 23, 2013 @ 7:15 pm

  148. People of all ages can have a stroke (my sister-in-law was in her early 30′s when she had hers). I hope he will be ok.

    I never bought into that Dean was a big meanie, making Sam hunt. Sam chooses to hunt, he has a mind all of his own. Dean has never dragged Sam away. I mean, in the pilot, he brings Sam back to Stanford after the Woman in White. Sam decides to leave to hunt after Jess dies. No where in the 8 to 9 years that this show has been on has Dean dragged Sam into hunting.

    If Sam had asked Dean to make sacrifices for him, that would really make Sam a selfish prick. I’m glad he doesn’t! Dean sacrifices because that is just who he is. I’m with roxi in that to say that Dean’s sacrifices are mostly selfish, is really taking any worth out of them.

    I’m also glad for a few Dean centric eps because the story arcs usually don’t revolve around him much. And I will watch the Sam centric ones as well. I’m not ever going to trash him because he may get more attention in an ep than Dean. I might be a bit disappointed but I’ll still watch and enjoy because I do like Sam. Also to call Dean a woobie or whatever is rather ridiculous considering all the “what’s wrong with Sam” themes we’ve had for 8 out of nine seasons. I just gather Caitlin
    must not like Dean very much by her comments.

    Comment by Twinster — November 23, 2013 @ 7:29 pm

  149. It’s great they’re taking random cases again. I was kind of bored with all this “angels and demons” thing. As for this episode, it could’been a great ghost case if they hadn’t waste so much time on Dean’s memories and feelings.

    Comment by doriana — November 23, 2013 @ 8:02 pm

  150. @ roxi: Take a chill pill; I didn’t attack you. I did not even imply that you wanted the “attack Sam” portion of the web site, but I thought you might like the “love Dean” portion. And I meant it about the info on the pro-Sam sites. I’d love that. Peace, baby; love Dean; love Sam; hate Castiel.

    Comment by RS — November 23, 2013 @ 8:35 pm

  151. There is an interesting push and pull of being selfless vs. selfish especially in regards to Dean because so many of his choices have been centered around Sam and could be seen as incredibly self-sacrificing but also as something that’s more about wanting to keep Sam to himself.

    Comment by San — November 23, 2013 @ 9:09 pm

  152. I really enjoyed the fastbacks with Dean. I thought the actor who played young Dean did a great job portraying Dean. I guess my favorite part of the ep was Dean interacting with Timmy. Dean has always had a way with kids.

    RS, I too thought you were recommending that awful site because of the Dean Love and The Sam Hate, it did come across like that. Anyhow, no fan who likes both brothers would enjoy that site.

    Comment by Twinster — November 23, 2013 @ 9:11 pm

  153. It’s all about POV for me. Dean’s motivations, Dean’s feelings, whether he is selfish or not, Dean’s sacrifices , all that has been covered and explored countless times.

    I want to explore things from Sam’s angle for once. So yeah, I was bored.

    Comment by very bored Sam fan — November 23, 2013 @ 11:30 pm

  154. @144 – I agree with a lot of what you said. I think fans have a mindset of Dean and Sam’s character that the show has not always backed up. Dean has himself made multiple comments that people have posted, throughout the seasons showing he IS a little jealous of what Sam got and he DOES want a little bit of a normal, steady life. His fights with Sam about Stanford and leaving the family could have occurred almost verbatim if John had been career military, or a traveling salesman, or just your standard drifter/con man. They weren’t about hunting, they were about Dean wanting Sam with him, partially because Dean wouldn’t leave John and so never got to make other friends at college like Sam. How could you not be a little jealous? Another example I don’t think anyone’s said yet is Croatoan where Dean is ready to die with Sam because “truth is, I’m tired.” He also says he can’t do this by himself anymore, Sam replies yes, you can, and Dean says “yeah, well I don’t want to.” (The second part might actually be from a late season 1 episode, but that’s just another example then.)
    Point is Dean doesn’t have to hate or love hunting all the way, all the time. That’s what’s not believable.

    @146 – I don’t think Sam not asking for the sacrifices makes them worthless – being there for Sam growing up when he would have had no one else was selfless – but in some cases, they were purely selfish. The demon deal for his soul being the prime example. Dean called other people who made the same deal selfish, and admitted it was a selfish move to Sam but said after everything, he was entitled to be selfish. And, really, if he’d never made the deal, he never would have broke in Hell, the first seal wouldn’t have been broken, and the Apocalypse wouldn’t have started.

    Comment by Sarah — November 24, 2013 @ 7:07 am

  155. Have to say t1gerlilly, I actually agree with your 144. Hunting was all Dean knew for so long; it was, and still is, an essential part of him but he doesn’t love it. It is as if he often sees it as his inescapable fate.

    Comment by CaseyT — November 24, 2013 @ 8:15 am

  156. I’ve just figured out, having read through this entire thread and having found 90% of the comments to be unbelievably ridiculous, exactly why the online SPN fandom is so embarrassing. You sound like the CW equivalent of Beliebers and Directioners. Caitlin in particular needs to grow the hell up andget a non-Sam obsessed life because honestly I’m ashamed for you, given some of the rubbish you have willingly chosen to rant in this discussion. I seriously hope you are still in school because at least then there is hope that you have time to mature.

    Seriously, Supernatural is a kickass show and deserves better than to be lumped together with the likes of Justin Bieber, through its over the top fans. Do the show a favour, take a step back and have a read of what some of you are saying because a lot of it sounds like crazed fan nonsense. Again, especially Caitlin.

    Comment by Just Sayin' — November 25, 2013 @ 3:54 pm

  157. Just Sayin’
    I wouldn’t be so judgmental of SPN fandom. Just came back from my first Burcon, and o boy, such a happy place full of joy, adoration, respect. No creepy fans I was expected to see, very age-diverse, lots of male fans(surprise).Many intelligent, highly educated people. So I guess it just easier to hate from under the rock. Some people can’t criticize, they hate. Or don’t see the difference. That’s sad.
    I like to come here to read some of the comments, smart, analytical, even if it’s negative ones. Others I just scroll through. Some people just have nothing to say, but they still do. O well.

    Comment by AAA — November 25, 2013 @ 6:22 pm

  158. I don’t mind intelligent discourse of the show. Differences of opinions make it interesting. I do get sick and tired of some of the blatant hate of characters for no apparent reasons (some hate because their favorite wasn’t the entire focus of an ep). Their are a couple of posters here that are close to being trolls with their hate and illogical bashing of characters and inflammatory comments. I do try not to feed them but it is hard. But I do find most to be intelligent and polite with their comments. I can remember a time where the name calling, bashing, and out right rudeness use to be the norm here but that has changed for the better despite a couple of haters here.

    Comment by Twinster — November 25, 2013 @ 7:24 pm

  159. Ghostfacers are coming back! Can’t wait!
    Now there’s two things for me to look forward to: Timothy Omundson and Ghostfacers! I always thought those guys were hilarious, never understood the hate for them. And the web episode where they meet Cas was so funny.

    Comment by roxi — November 25, 2013 @ 7:50 pm

  160. I guess I never liked them too much when the ep was all about them and very little Dean and Sam. I do like them on the show when the show doesn’t focus solely on them. Small doses. :)

    Comment by Twinster — November 25, 2013 @ 8:10 pm

  161. I guess for me, I could deal with less Sam and Dean because Harry and Ed for so funny, and Sam and Dean did have their parts in it too, they were a part of the story, and were funny as well.
    Speaking of funny episodes, did the late Kim Manners cameo as one of the movers in “Mystery Spot”? And did the girl who played Karen Giles in “The Usual Suspects also play the bookstore owner in “Monster At The End Of This Book?” Yeah, I guess I could just look it up for myself but I get lazy. Whoever the woman was, I really liked her hair and LOVED her sweater coat!

    Comment by roxi — November 25, 2013 @ 8:31 pm

  162. Hmmmmm….not sure, roxi. I think I do remember the bit about Manners but not Karen Giles?

    I won’t mind seeing the ghost busters again, I did think they were funny. Just don’t want another full episode with just their story. I do love it when Dean and Sam undermine them!

    I will admit, I can’t wait to see “the sex talk” tomorrow night on the big screen! I’ll be chatting live with a great friend while we watch the show.

    Comment by Twinster — November 25, 2013 @ 9:39 pm

  163. @162- So you’re saying that that WAS Kim Manners?
    Is there anybody who knows the answer to both questions?
    I wasn’t being disrespectful to you Twinster, thank you for taking the time to address me.

    Comment by roxi — November 25, 2013 @ 9:54 pm

  164. I thought the Ghostfacers were funniest in” It’s a Terrible Life”. And when they do the slow walking.
    Tomorrow’s episode should be good. We get more of Sam and Jodi working together, they are so good together.

    Comment by roxi — November 25, 2013 @ 10:04 pm

  165. Yes, Keegan Connor Tracy did play Karen Giles in The Usual Suspects and Sera Seige, the publisher, in The Monster at the End of this Book.

    As far as I can tell, Brock Johnson and Rob deLeeuw played the movers in Mystery Spot. A lot of directors do put themselves in their episodes though.

    Comment by oh fandom — November 26, 2013 @ 3:41 am

  166. @156. Someone’s being rather judgmental here…! Alright, I agree some people post hate filled comments, etc, but most have fun, and give opinions and perspectives of the show in a pleasant, intelligent manner.

    I find it an enjoyable and fun way to connect with other Supernatural fans. Why not? We’re not here to write a thesis on the show, just enjoy it, and enjoy talking about it.

    Peace and love!

    Comment by Tammy — November 26, 2013 @ 5:12 am

  167. Does anybody know where there’s a real fan site for this fantastic show. I seem to have stumbled across a supernatural hate site.

    If any one sucks it’s you lot. These people work so hard to bring this show to life.

    News flash Sam and Dean are charachters in a show. One which i happen to love because it entertains me.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion but really this seems to have become a serious hate fest!

    Comment by mich — November 27, 2013 @ 3:21 pm

  168. For anti-Dean sites, you can go to Winchester Family Business, spoiler.tv, the forums on supernatural.tv. IMDB isn’t the Dean-love site people seem to think, there are lots of anti-Dean threads.

    Comment by a bored bi-bro — December 2, 2013 @ 10:38 am

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