“Rock and a Hard Place” Discussion

Post your thoughts on tonight’s virgin-filled episode. Click HERE for my full recap or keep reading for my quick thoughts.

Meh. To be honest, this is one of those fairly dull stand-alone episodes. The monster of the week is another god of the hearth, just like the Paris Hilton episode. There’s nothing particularly special about it, other than the fact that they keep talking about dragons, but then there are no dragons. It’s kinda like Game of Thrones that way.


On the bright side, Sheriff Mills is back and Kim Rhodes is awesome. It’s always nice to see people who know and like the Winchesters, and it was a nice touch to mention her relationship with Bobby and her desire to find a purpose for everything.


And I think it’s cool that she got to kill the goddess. Dean was stuck underground the whole time and Jody got to be the hero. That was a nice change of pace.


Then there’s the porn star. Dean had sex with a porn star. It made for some very funny moments (what did she do with the tacos?). More Casa Erotica references are also always welcome.


In fact, the whole scene in the purity club was great. Dean’s description of sex was funny and titillating, and it was cool for Sam to bring up the fact that several of his former lovers have ended up dead. He really does have bad luck with the ladies.


Finally, I look forward to getting some answers about Zeke next week. The show did a good job of making me trust him, then slowly making me doubt him. I was on the edge of my seat when Dean was about to confess the truth to Sam, and when Zeke showed up, it became clear that he’s bad news.


So it was a perfectly adequate filler episode, but next week’s fall finale is the one I really want.



News posted on November 26, 2013 Comments (182)


  1. I heard this is the last season. Does any one know if that is true?

    Comment by bill — November 26, 2013 @ 6:06 pm

  2. All I have to say is: WHAT THE F*** DID I JUST WATCH?

    Comment by Caitlin — November 26, 2013 @ 6:59 pm

  3. I heard they signed for 10 seasons so I think there will be one more. Next episode looks BONKERS!!!! It’s about to hit the fan.

    Comment by Chris — November 26, 2013 @ 7:06 pm

  4. That was an enjoyable episode. I liked it. I was expecting bad filler, but I thought this was decent filler.

    I must admit once Sam got knocked out, I was wondering if Zeke was going to surface to help out. I’m surprised he stayed hidden until the end.

    I knew the red-haired leader was the villain from the start, but she did a good job as the goddess or whatever she was.

    I liked seeing Jodi again. I will say this show faked me out b/c I thought Sam was going to talk to Jodi about his feelings when he leaned in, but the scene cut to Dean. Thankfully, we got some Sam POV at the end. I do wish the word “freak” had been used instead of “mess” b/c that would be very consistent w/how Sam feels.

    I am excited about the next episode. I wonder what Zeke did. I think it would be interesting if Zeke didn’t hold up his end of the bargain and took over Sam’s body/mind.

    You know . . . I just thought of how they always split up Sam episodes w/Cas stuff. What did he say again? The war was starting? I just hope it is interesting.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 26, 2013 @ 7:13 pm

  5. Next weeks promo proves to me that Zeke is bad news and that he is not healing Sam at all.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 26, 2013 @ 7:17 pm

  6. Eh. That’s sums up my entire reaction to this ep. Though that’s a marked improvement over how I felt about Jenny Klein’s last episode.
    Jody was awesome. Nice to see Dean being better to a stranger than he was to Cas when he was homeless. This ep really didn’t do Dean any favors. Jared was great in the scene at the end.
    Not really excited about next week, since there was no discernible plot in the promo.
    Sigh. At least we’ll get to see Cas.
    I really hope other folks loved this ep and will comment on it. I just can’t work up much enthusiasm.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — November 26, 2013 @ 7:20 pm

  7. They do seem to be pushing the “Zeke is bad” vibe a lot…but how will they get around the fact that in the premiere, Cas vouched for him?
    Unless he’s like Uriel and has fallen since Cas knew him. That’s a possibility.

    Comment by G-dawg — November 26, 2013 @ 7:21 pm

  8. The Biggest clue that Zek is evil is the revealation from the Goddess that Sam is not healed at all inside. I think he is working for Lucifer.

    Comment by michael — November 26, 2013 @ 7:24 pm

  9. Loved it. Probably my favorite episode of the season thus far, but I have a short memory sometimes. I thought it was funny and I liked the supporting characters and Sheriff Mills; I think I’ve liked her better with each episode she’s in.

    I was a little annoyed that Sam didn’t question Dean more about him being all “duct tape and safety pins” inside. It seems like that put with the blackouts, and him feeling tired more often, and Dean always worried about how he’s feeling should have finally gotten him to push Dean for answers. Since he didn’t, I’m going to keep assuming Zeke is doing something to his mind/memories to keep him from putting all this together. I’d also like to know how, after a couple months, Sam isn’t healed any more than this, if Zeke is really doing what he promised.

    Comment by Sarah — November 26, 2013 @ 7:26 pm

  10. That’s a good point, Sarah. I forgot to mention that Sam should have questioned the whole “duct tape and safety pins” thing more than he did, but he actually got to express an opinion so that is something. Haha!

    Apart from the Zeke reveal, I am not at all excited by the mid-season finale b/c it’s focusing on the angels. To be very honest, I don’t care about the angels and whatever they’ve been doing. The show has spent ZERO time building up that story anyway, so I don’t understand why it is the focus of the mid-break.

    There has been no overall plot/theme to the season. I fear the episode will be jam packed w/stuff that could have been laid out over the course of the first half of the season.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 26, 2013 @ 7:35 pm

  11. I’m thinking Zeke was able to heal sam immediately the entire time, which he may do after the war to uphold his end of the bargain. Showing that he is good (which cas said) but that he’s using the prime vessel meant for lucifer (who is an angel) as a full out atomic weapon for this war. Zeke knew it was coming and being one of the strongest angels, took the best vessel for the job. Just my opinion.

    Comment by Chris — November 26, 2013 @ 7:35 pm

  12. Zeke didn’t heal him immediately bc he needed the leverage against dean to not be kicked out of Sam. (Sorry, I just love this whole show. Lol.)

    Comment by Chris — November 26, 2013 @ 7:41 pm

  13. I loved the ep. Dean was a riot, and he finally hooked up with someone he admired. She was all into Dean, too. Sam and Jodi scenes were great. They work well together. I’m on the fence about Zeke but I’m beginning to lean towards he might be bad which I’m hoping he is not. Dean looked really upset there at the end. I think he’s thinking he’s done a bad thing. Zeke is controlling not only Sam, but Dean as well. I didn’t feel this ep showed Dean in a bad light. I was glad to see Dean hook up with a beautiful gal who wasn’t a baddie. And the sex talk was still hilarious! Looking forward to next weel’s ep but sad it is the mid year finale.

    Comment by Twinster — November 26, 2013 @ 8:12 pm

  14. Oh, and I really love how Dean stood up for Honor against the bully.

    Comment by Twinster — November 26, 2013 @ 8:13 pm

  15. It was nice seeing Jodi again, but the overall episode was a little blah!. I have never watched the episodes live before I watch the seasons all at once on DVD so I was very surprised to see a mid-season finale coming up. Will there be more episodes in the near furture? I do think this season so far is a bit all over the place. But hey, it still has my attention and it’s one of my favorite shows. And I only follow two.!

    Comment by Jane — November 26, 2013 @ 8:15 pm

  16. @G-Dawg: I have never trusted Ezekial since the very beginning. I knw he was bad news. I think he’s working for Lucifer and is using Sam (who is also Lucifer’s vessel and a very powerful vessel) to call home. He is not healing Sam and Sam is not getting any better.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 26, 2013 @ 8:24 pm

  17. I thought this episode was pretty good. When the goddess said that Sam was all duct tape and safety pins and how was he alive – that told me that Ezekiel hasn’t finished healing Sam. Ezekiel had told Dean that the more he has to heal other people and I think Sam as well, the weaker it makes him, and thus the longer it will take to heal Sam, so that Ezekiel can leave.

    It would be nice for a change if Ezekiel was a good guy. There have been so many people in Sam and Dean’s past that looked like good guys, but turned out to be bad ones. It would be a nice change of pace is Ezekiel was a good guy.

    This is a spoiler alert in case someone doesn’t like spoilers –

    In next week’s episode there is a part where Ezekiel stops Dean from helping someone in the Bunker, and Sam says something like “I did what I had to do”. In this scene Dean looks upset and that it looks like Dean was trying to stop Sam/Ezekiel. I was thinking that maybe what happened was that Ezekiel kills someone. If that is true, then who could it be – Castiel, Kevin or Crowley. I don’t think Dean would be upset if Ezekiel killed Crowley, plus whatever happens was not where Crowley was kept chained up. I also don’t think it will be Castiel, because the actor that plays Castiel, is a regular this season, and I don’t think he would be a regular for only 1/2 of the season, so that leaves Kevin. If this is true, it makes you wonder why.

    Comment by Valerie — November 26, 2013 @ 8:51 pm

  18. Hmmm . . . I honestly wonder if Zeke can heal Sam at all. Last year, Cas told Dean and Sam that Sam was damaged beyond repair, which makes me wonder why Cas hasn’t questioned Sam being upright and alive but that’s for another post.

    According to the goddess, Sam is still in pretty bad shape. She wondered how he was alive. So, either Zeke lied about his ability to actually heal Sam or he’s healing Sam incredibly slowly. It’s been months, and I think if Zeke were to exit Sam’s body, Sam would drop dead!

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 26, 2013 @ 8:57 pm

  19. Valerie:

    Ezekiel is bad news. Stop trying to spin stuff to make him look good. EZEKIEL IS BAD, BAD, BAD.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 26, 2013 @ 8:58 pm

  20. I kind of agree with Caitlin. Ezekiel is going to be bad, because show lacks the imagination to do anything else. Angels are bad, demons are bad, anyone the boys trust turns out to be bad. Lather, rinse, repeat. I wish it would be different, though, just because it’d actually be interesting.

    Comment by lee — November 26, 2013 @ 9:19 pm

  21. “anyone the boys trust turns out to be bad”
    Did you not even watch this very episode?
    Sam and Dean have had loads of people to trust and rely on.

    Comment by brx — November 26, 2013 @ 9:31 pm

  22. Sorry, went a little hyperbolic to prove a point. I should have just stuck with angels are bad and demons are bad, which is annoying in itself. Why bother to have angels and demons when they’re basically written as the same entity?

    May I be the one to say I’m hoping against hope that the Lucifer theories turn out to be incorrect? That dead horse has been more than beaten into the ground to me.

    Comment by lee — November 26, 2013 @ 9:47 pm

  23. Valerie—I agree–it would make a nice change to have a “baddie” turn out good!

    Lee–Also agree about Lucifer being a dead issue….but who knows?

    Plot stuff aside…the acting was great as always…when are these cutie pies going to be in another movie???

    Comment by Snarks — November 26, 2013 @ 11:36 pm

  24. My Mini review:
    This episode, to me, wasn’t awful or good. It was more like it was just thrown together at the last minute. It was neither Dean-centric nor Sam centric. It was kind of nobody-centric. I thought the beginning part had it’s funny moments,loved Dean’s sex description, but then Dean, the guy who has proven how clever and inventive he can be, what with the walkman EMF and the demon trap bullets, turned into a horny idiot controlled by his erection. I mean. I was glad he finally got some action, but the way it went down seemed OOC. And Suzy, honestly, why would someone so ashamed of her past porn life even keep those cds let alone have them in the top drawer? And I thought, given how hard she worked to live a chaste life, she caved WAY too easily when Dean came on to her. I mean, yes it’s Dean GORGEOUS Winchester, but still, especially after only just meeting him a couple of hours before. And didn’t Dean have one second of pause here, considering how many men Suzy had been with?I don’t meant to imply a double standard here, since as far as we know, Dean has been with plenty of women, but you’d think it would stop him for at least a minute, as it was, it looked like, just like last time, he may have not stopped to take precautions. The moron flag was in full effect. Not to mention, it was also sort of a tacky, classless thing for Dean to do, seducing a woman who was trying to keep her chastity vow. He could just as easily go out a pick up a woman at a bar like he usually does right? But it was in keeping with how these writers are destroying Dean’s character this season. The moron flag flew high. Dean was basically useless for the rest of the episode.
    Which brings us to Sam. Sam is smart enough to be able to control his libido when they’re in the middle of a case. He had some real nice moments with Jodi. But then we got the sledgehammer comment Jodi made about how nice it was that Sam and Dean had eachother or something to that effect designed, of course to make the big fall coming that much worse. Then, Sam, again gets knocked out so a guest star can save the day. That way, he can come to so that the second monster in two weeks can tell him there’e something wrong with him. You’d think a light bulb would appear over the Stanford educated, genius Sam, but no, He actually turns it on himself, saying there’s something wrong with him and and maybe he’ll never be ok. Argh. At least there was some of that Sam POV some of you have been complaining about not getting. Then suddenly. the guilt revives smart Dean and he tries to finally do the right thing, but douchebag angel has him by the balls, so he has to come up with another lame excuse/comment. But we do see he is realizing that he really f-ed up and it’s all out of his control. So the last scene kind of helped make up for the pointlessness of the rest of the episode.
    Didn’t Jodi get a freaking stake driven into her chest? How is it that she wasn’t falling on the ground bleeding? And why was her arm in a sling? I’ll have to watch it again, maybe I saw it wrong.
    And since when did the Winchesters stop being gentlemen? They didn’t offer to help Jodi when she left or even hold the door.
    I have never trusted Ezekiel, and now, I think that Dean realizes he doesn’t trust him either, but it’s too late. Dean really screwed up, and now he knows it. I feel what we’re going to see is a role reversal of season 5. Dean felt he couldn’t trust Sam anymore after the Ruby debacle, and Sam felt he should leave. I think this time, Dean is going to get that speech from Sam, and Dean is going to be the one leaving. But I don’t think Dean is going to come back to the fold as soon or as easily as Sam did then. I think we will, and think we need to see, Dean really hit rock bottom in a way we’ve never seen him do before. Even though I insist that he meant Sam no harm, there has to be major repercussions for his actions. He needs to look like it too this time, hair grown long and being unshaven because he just doesn’t care about himself anymore. And then, at some point when he is truly suffering for what he did, Sam, still heartbroken and rightfully angry, but realizing he can’t stop loving Dean despite what he did, will find him. Sam will now be the strong one, he will be the one taking care of Dean.
    At least this is how I think it should go down.

    Comment by roxi — November 27, 2013 @ 8:36 am

  25. Sorry, I guess that was a lot less “mini” than I intended.

    Comment by roxi — November 27, 2013 @ 8:37 am

  26. I guess I enjoyed it, but I so enjoy seeing Jensen Ackles. The episode seemed little more than him on screen being cute, sexy, and then riddled with angst–essentially, D-list soap opera for the resident soap hunk. The writers are responding to the call to give Dean a story by giving Ackles lots of screen time, not by giving him anything worthy of his talent. As for paying some notice of canon, the writers seem to think that means copying past scripts: this was 6.12 Like a Virgin plus 505 Fallen Idol, neither of which deserved any repeating. Sadly I don’t know that the actress who played the villain was any advance over Paris Hilton. Jenny Klien writes only once a year and often thankfully with a partner, hopefully she’ll be off again until season 10, and a partner is needed.
    Enjoyed Sheriff Mills, she is always welcome. Jared continues to get all the acting calls this season. He has become a classic straight man to Jensen comic bits; Jared’s looks of “you are over the top” or “oh come on!” are perfectly timed. His shift from Sam to Ezekiel is a challenge he is meeting. Love to see what is going on inside Sam’s head and Ezekiel’s as well, but all we are getting from the Winchesters’ story is more Dean guilt. Almost through the first part of the season and IMO the only SPN story of this season Sam/Ezekiel has been explored only sporadically; just enough to keep me watching.

    Comment by CaseyT — November 27, 2013 @ 9:06 am

  27. 2.39 million viewers! Pretty good ratings!
    I liked the episode. Next week seems like it could be a killer episode and bring expectation for what is to come.

    Comment by Lucy — November 27, 2013 @ 9:06 am

  28. @26- I didn’t think Jensen got any more screen time in this episode than Jared did, and it didn’t matter anyway because both of them were wasted.
    But I do agree with your other assessment: The writers got sick of hearing Dean fans complain about his lack of story, so they’ve given him more screen time, but still no story. I rather he had LESS scree time but a good, important story. Mainly, he made the decision in the first episode to have Zeke possess Sam, and basically now, that’s it. His whole story line has consisted of spinning lies to Sam and Cas.
    But I don’t think Sam is getting much of a story either. I first I thought, well, at least Jared is faring better that Jensen because he gets a story arc that lets him show off his acting chops, now though, even that is getting old. And Cas’s human story got old real fast.
    It’s only been 8 episode though. It looks like next week is when things are finally gonna pick up and an actual storyline for our boys will begin.
    And looking at the promo for next week, I fear for Kevin. Even though I’ve seen no spoilers,I fear he is the one who is not going to make it.

    Comment by roxi — November 27, 2013 @ 9:19 am

  29. Roxi, Sam has always felt like a freak …. even as a child so I thought it was in character for him to assume something is wrong with him.

    As many have complained about, something is wrong with Sam practically every year. I guess Sam feels the same way. LOL!! I guess that clean feeling he had or believed he was getting is gone.

    What is Zeke doing? I wonder I f there is too much damage to actually heal him? Sam has been ill/sick for the past two episodes. Dean has to be freaked about what is actually happening to Sam.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 27, 2013 @ 9:22 am

  30. Roxi I enjoyed reading your ‘mini’ review :) I agree that Dean needs to see how much his brother is prepared to do for him for a change and it would be nice to see the tables turned as far as care is concerned, but judging what is being hinted at, I think we are going to see dark Dean, which makes me sad somewhat. I have always liked the fact that Dean has been the one solid thing in this show that has been a constant. I know it is not really conceivable that Dean stay constant amidst all the suffering and hardship he has endured, he is human after all, and don’t get me wrong Dark Dean would be awesome, but somehow I just get a feeling the writers are going to mess it up. It has been pretty Dean centric for the first half, so I think it is going to be pretty Sam centric next half. The problem here for me is that Sam gets to drive the myth arc plus be Sam centric, which makes for a pretty boring time for Dean, and this is where the writers always seem to screw up! I understand that the actors need time off, but to screw the characters over just seems extreme to me. Why can’t they just carry on with a balanced mytharc and storyline for both brothers that does the characters and the story justice.

    I don’t want to see pathetic helpless Dean, but I also don’t want to see Dark Dean either. Yes a rock and a hard place definitely

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 27, 2013 @ 9:28 am

  31. The episode was ok for me. I thought it would be more intense and meaty than what it was. I found the first few scenes really funny, then the rest of it just seemed to be a little flat.

    Why are our boys becoming dumber? I mean, 4 people are missing, and Dean wanted some action, and that too in the situation roxi already described? Just didn’t seem plausible. Don’t ge me wrong, I’m happy Dean did, but the situation seemed all wrong.

    And our Sam can’t research as he’s not so smart anymore, it seems (remember Charlie ‘smartest person’ Bradbury, letting Crowley call Abaddon, and so on) and keeps getting knocked out, Dean feels guilty… Getting old. OK at least he’s nice and ‘Sammy’. The last scene and his leaving the motel room really emotionally touched me, reminded me so much of young Sammy. What a life they’ve had, the
    two of them! :(

    Loved seeing Jodie, but not so happy when they make the guest stars smarter and more important than the boys. The writers really seem to have a hard time balancing things, it seems.

    Next week is really scaring me. And then the wait. Guess have to survive somehow…

    Comment by Tammy — November 27, 2013 @ 9:53 am

  32. I enjoyed the beginning because it was the brothers working on a case together. Although Dean not answering Sammy’s call especially when they are in the middle of a case? A little convenient :D

    Dean was a bit too sleazy and like a fan about meeting a Pornstar! for me to buy that the lady would be so willing to go for it but it’s no big deal. Maybe she has bad impulse control and thus needs the ring, books and meetings to keep herself in line. I was worried about how it would come across when Dean sleeps with a porn star that made a chastity vow just because I know that in real like there are former porn stars that have sworn off porn, talk about religion etc. and seem really hurt by the industry (so it would be a little iffy for Dean to sleep with someone so messed up) but I thought that the woman who played her did a good job. There was a level of maturity about her that made it not seem dubious in morality.

    Sam’s reaction to Jodi’s comment puzzled me. Maybe it was to show that Sam doesn’t think he and Dean are in a happy place like Jodi insinuates because he knows in his heart that something about Dean is off and thus they aren’t as close as they would normally be.

    I think Jodi’s comment kind of came out of the blue (it seemed romantic :D ) so I think it might just be a setup to make the boys’ falling out that much worse.

    I thought they were clever about it in the end. Sammy starts beating himself up (past issues of feeling like a freak) and Dean’s protective side won’t let Sam to think that way.

    Comment by San — November 27, 2013 @ 10:36 am

  33. @31-The other possibility is that Dean’s screwup leads him to believe that all he’s ever done is screw up (season 5)that his life has been worthless, and stops caring about anything, making him vulnerable and open to demon possession. Or worse, maybe he’ll come to feel, he can’t beat em so why not join em? Maybe he’ll willingly let himself be possessed, in part because he thinks he deserves it for the Sam/Zeke debacle but also because, as a demon/monster hunter in hasn’t seemed to matter much,the dark forces somehow always win anyway. Maybe he’ll get so low that he’ll begin to think it’s better to “reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven” (paraphrasing). So maybe we’ll see Dean doing a complete 180 and willingly turning to the dark side, the very thing he always feared Sam would do. And Sam, in another role reversal, will end up being the strong one, the righteous one who turns around and saves Dean, brings him back from the brink of total darkness, with Cas fighting by his side for his best friend’s soul. This would give ALL of them important story arcs and great acting opportunities as well.
    And yes, I DO think I could write better storylines than the current gang of SPN writers.

    Comment by roxi — November 27, 2013 @ 10:43 am

  34. What makes you guys think Dean’s going “dark?” Why would he? I haven’t read anything . . . but this doesn’t seem like the “going dark” kind of situation to me.


    Comment by Lisa1 — November 27, 2013 @ 11:20 am

  35. @34- I personally don’t know if Dean will go dark. I only bring that up as a possible consequence of the fallout coming. I definitely see him hitting rock bottom though. Mainly, I was responding to something posted by another poster.
    Really, why is the possibility of Dean going darkside so unthinkable for you? Is it also unthinkable to you that Sam will become the strong one, the one that saves and takes care of Dean? I think a complete role reversal would be ironic and in some way, poetic justice.

    Comment by roxi — November 27, 2013 @ 11:27 am

  36. I haven’t heard anything about Dean going dark either. I don’t really see it happening, to be honest. It would be too out of the box for the present writers, plus I not see the situation leading to it. I just don’t know where the Zeke-Sam situation is going, but I see them getting back together after whatever happens to fight demons and angels. Not the most exciting scenario, in my opinion.

    Roxi, sure you cant get the writers to use your stories?

    Comment by Tammy — November 27, 2013 @ 11:48 am

  37. My biggest problem with the episode was the way they had Dean acting like a horney teenager.

    They seem to do that a lot with him. He put them all in danger just because he wanted to get laid?

    Really disappointed with the way they handled that. He wouldn’t even listen to what Sam had to say, while working a case.

    I don’t know why, but it really got me to not like the episode too much.

    Comment by Jose — November 27, 2013 @ 11:50 am

  38. Roxi, I never said it was unthinkable for Dean to go dark, but this situation does not lend itself, in MY opinion, to a character going dark. Why would Dean go dark b/c this secret is revealed? I agree w/Tammy that this isn’t the “going dark” kind of situation. I don’t think he’s going to hit rock bottom either.

    Honestly, I see this as just the standard brother rift the writers seemed determined to do each year. In S7, we had the Amy nonsense. In S8, there was the Benny/Amelia lame conflict. Here, we have the Zeke secret. I expect Sam will get angry – maybe a bit longer than usual given the gravity of the secret – and then they boys will reconcile. I don’t expect any lasting consequences. The writers, incl. Carver, just aren’t that deep, IMO. I’m happy to be wrong about that though.

    As far as Dean going dark, I definitely think it could happen. This is not the story for that, but it could happen. I could also see Sam saving Dean or being the strong support for Dean. I doubt we’ll ever see stories like that b/c the writers (incl. Carver) seem very limited in their views of the characters, but a role reversal would be cool w/me.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 27, 2013 @ 12:21 pm

  39. A so-so episode. Enjoyed Dean’s “confession” during the Virgin meeting and very much liked seeing Jody Mills again.


    Have not liked Zeke since day one so I will be glad when he is gone. Another season based on a stupid “big secret” between the boys. You would think they would have learned by now not to keep “big secrets” from one another. But the writers cannot think of any more so-called “suspense” so this is what we get.

    Liked last week’s mow much better.

    Comment by SL — November 27, 2013 @ 12:30 pm

  40. I dunno about Dean going literally dark but I think it’s safe to assume that mentally he will go to places we haven’t seen him go in awhile because apparently Jensen said that it has started to influence him personally outside of work.

    Comment by San — November 27, 2013 @ 12:33 pm

  41. San – I missed that interview.

    Uh . . . I hope no one takes this the wrong way, but I take what the actors say w/a HUGE grain of salt. I remember Jared saying he spoke to the writers last year about his crap story and came away thinking, “Wow.” I have NO idea what Jared was talking about. Jensen mentioned Dean having PTSD from Purgatory and “The Hurt Locker” reference, but none of that really played out on screen.

    So, I have not read his interview and am not calling him a liar, but I don’t know how what he’s read and done will actually play out on screen.

    But Jensen doesn’t say much about the show, in general, so maybe they’re actually giving him something substantive to do, which would be nice. We’ll soon see.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 27, 2013 @ 12:46 pm

  42. Dean acting like a horny teenager really bothered me too. This is NOT how a thirty something Dean (or even most people) would behave, esp when lives are in danger.

    @32. While watching, I thought Sam’s reaction to Jody’s comment was a little off, but now, thinking about it, maybe it was because he was worried about Dean? Or am i stretching it (wishful thinking)? Don’t know, have to rewatch that scene.

    What ARE they going to do about Zeke? I don’t know know how evil, or not, he is, but he can have complete control over Sam; his body, his thoughts, his memory. And so, by default, Dean. It’s really scary, and I just don’t see where they’re going with it. It could lead to some interesting stuff, but will probably be a let down.

    Any chance the writers will surprise us with some brilliant twists? unfortunately, I just don’t think so. They seem incapable of coming up with new ideas or even switching things around.

    Comment by Tammy — November 27, 2013 @ 12:55 pm

  43. Tammy, I think it is very unlikely that the writers will surprise us. Haha! They seem to have very little creativity and imagination when it comes to this show and the characters.

    But as I always say, I am happy to be proven wrong.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 27, 2013 @ 1:08 pm

  44. I personally don’t see Dean going dark. Sam is the Luke Skywalker of the show and it has always been him that has faced darkness. I’d rather they keep it that way.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 27, 2013 @ 1:23 pm

  45. Dark Dean would mean a level of creativity that our erstwhile writers dont seem capable of. so no fears on that front, Caitlin, I think. Depressed, angsty Dean…probably. Yet again. :(

    Comment by Tammy — November 27, 2013 @ 1:36 pm

  46. I don’t see Dean as the dark character of the show. Sam has always been the one who struggles with evil and darkness. It is what defines Sam as a character. If they take that away from Sam and give that to Dean, I would be disappointed. I don’t want Sam to be the moral, righteous man. Because I don’t really care for overly moral characters. I like tormented, dark characters who struggle with inner darkness (such as Anakin Skywalker, for example) and have a tragic fate. THAT is Sam’s role. I wouldn’t’ want Sam to become this overly moral, overly compassionate, righteous and angelic pure guy. Because that is not Sam Winchester. That’s Dean. I like Sam because he is and always has been a morally complex and dark character.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 27, 2013 @ 1:43 pm

  47. The way I see it in regards to Star Wars (me being a MEGA Star Wars fangirl), Sam is the Anakin Skywalker and Dean is the Obi-Wan Kenobi of the series. I know, I know, my inner geek is coming out. :D Although Sam has been referred as Luke Skywalker and Dean as Han Solo by the Word of God himself (Eric Kripke), I much prefer the Sam/Anakin and Dean/Obi-Wan comparison.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 27, 2013 @ 1:46 pm

  48. Sorry to interrupt but I have to ask: Did Dean say “Not now, kiddo” when he rejected Sam’s call? If so, then that nickname is awfully cute :)

    Comment by San — November 27, 2013 @ 1:48 pm

  49. @ No. 2 You say the same thing every week!!

    I enjoyed this episode. Dean/Jensen’s smile is to die for! When he flashes that all that comes to mind is- “It is useless to resist.”

    That man is beautiful, that is if a man can be described as such?

    Comment by Silvertayl 57 — November 27, 2013 @ 2:27 pm

  50. I loved this episode-Once again it was a throw back to s1 and s2- with the so called mytharc touched on at the beginning and the emotional “talk” at the end. Very reminiscent of the earlier seasons. Not done to perfection like Kripke did but still very nice to see for a change. Dean was sexy as all h*ll I wanted more but naturally there was no time in the story telling for the goods. But I will take what I got. Sam and Jodi are a great working pair. But I found it interesting that Dean once again kinda saved himself -yea Sam and Jodi were there -but it turned out Dean saved himself AGAIN. One gripe-Jodi gets stabbed with a wooden spike and she lives??? OKKKKK. Glad she did but kinda lame.

    spoiler for those of you who don’t like them.

    Some of you are saying Zeke is working for Lucifer or is a bad angel. He definitely is not working for Lucifer and he is not Lucifer because there are pictures out and Zeke seems to be working with Metatron. I personally think that Zeke has built a bond with Dean (most of the angels that come in contact with Dean do) and he will turn out to be an ally to the brothers in the end. Hell I am not even sure Metatron is going to turn out to be a bad angel. Maybe he is weeding out those angels that were aligned with Lucifer or Raphial in the first place or something. Something to ponder. hmmmmmm.

    I saw that interview with Jensen-yea it seems Dean goes a little emotional and maybe a little dark here coming up after the midseason finale. Big twist coming up as well per Jensen. We’ll see. Not looking forward to angels all the time now but I like Zeke.

    Comment by animal — November 27, 2013 @ 2:39 pm

  51. Huh. I can see how much they have in common. You do know that Obi-Wan is gay, right?

    Comment by t1gerlilly — November 27, 2013 @ 2:44 pm

  52. Oh yeah, plus we already have Kevin Solo… Although maybe moose is really chewbacca if you think about it. I guess that makes Cas either Princess Leia or Yoda…or if Dean is really obi wan, maybe he’s Doob Floon Tachi.

    Sorry, but every once in a while you gotta get your geek on.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — November 27, 2013 @ 2:49 pm

  53. I hope this show gets pulled off the air. But the fact that theres a whole bunch of morons who watch it, not mysrlf, i dont watch s**t like this . Considering they constantly bash the Chatolic religion, which personally offends me! They have no clue how true religion really is. Angels do not kill people, nor have sex with thrm, nor do angels cast spells, all this crap is cult related. This show just lies to the viewers on how heaven really is. x-(

    Comment by Mys — November 27, 2013 @ 2:55 pm

  54. #53: If you are so offended by how “your” religion is “bashed” on here perhaps you should learn how to spell Catholic and then switch to another show.

    Comment by SL — November 27, 2013 @ 3:09 pm

  55. @46- Since when has Dean ever been an overly moral character? He’s ALWAYS been a hedonist. Sam being strong and winning out over the dark side in no way diminishes him or makes him boring. I gather that was the insinuation, that somehow Dean is not as complex or interesting as Sam is. Well I STRONGLY disagree with that, Dean is EVERY bit as complex and interesting as Sam.

    Comment by roxi — November 27, 2013 @ 3:11 pm

  56. And I don’t know where you’ve been, but Dean had spent the ENTIRE series being tormented and conflicted.

    Comment by roxi — November 27, 2013 @ 3:13 pm

  57. @50- Dean didn’t save himself. Jodi saved him. (It should have been Sam.)
    251- So even after this episode, you STILL think Dean is gay/bisexual? When ALL signs clearly rule that out?

    Comment by roxi — November 27, 2013 @ 3:17 pm

  58. @53- First off, what’s “true religion” to you is probably quite different to someone else, and second, if you hate the show, why the hell are you watching it or taking the time out of your life to bash it on a website?

    Comment by roxi — November 27, 2013 @ 3:19 pm

  59. @sl – from the spelling I couldn’t tell if he was talking about Cthulhu or Catholicism. Though he does have a point about how badly they treat the theology of the wholly roamin’ church. But they ignore their own canon, so how can we expect them to pay attention to anyone else’s?

    Comment by t1gerlilly — November 27, 2013 @ 3:19 pm

  60. I hate how they are trying to make Sam all moral and righteous. First, they purify Sam and cleanse Sam of his demon blood and then he ends up being possessed by an angel this season. I’m so pissed that the writers have managed to tai away or destroy the very essence of Sam Winchester’s character, which is his darkness and struggle with it. the demon blood is a part of Sam and the fact that the writers purified him makes me so mad. I hope the writers are not trying to make Sam out to be the moral righteous one while making Den become the one struggling with darkness. Please writers. NO. Do not do that to Sam. They are destroying Sam and taking away the essence of his character.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 27, 2013 @ 3:41 pm

  61. @ roxi – I have to respectfully disagree-Dean got himself out by using the clippers to get the bolts out. remember he opened the door and said the Garth line “what did I miss”?. Sheriff Mills and Sam found where he was, but Dean rescued himself.

    Comment by animal — November 27, 2013 @ 3:50 pm

  62. #53 is a troll. Do not feed.

    Comment by Twinster — November 27, 2013 @ 4:41 pm

  63. I figure the writers have to keep Zeke inside Sam until Castiel gets his powers back, which could take us to the end of the season or beyond. And, since there’s no drama in Zeke being a good angel, he’ll probably be siding with the bad ones against Dean and Castiel. Particularly if Zeke leads the bad angel forces, Dean will be faced with a choice: should he kill Zeke/Sam and defeat the bad angels or let Zeke/Sam survive at the cost of human lives?

    So where does that leave Sam? I’m guessing Zeke answered Dean’s call– not because the angel was anxious to help–but because the trials gave Sam incredible powers Zeke covets for himself. Owing to his mortal injuries, Sam is too weak to use those powers, but the last episode hinted that he needs an opportunity to finally and firmly prove his worth to himself. So, just as he had to overcome his demon blood and Lucifer, he’ll have to find the strength of will to defeat the angel inside him and save the world (again). Of course, his battle against Zeke will mean the death of Sam, but Castiel will regain his grace just in time to bring the human back to life.

    SN shouldn’t be this predictable, so I’m hoping I’m wrong.

    Comment by Watcher — November 27, 2013 @ 6:09 pm

  64. @ No. 53 If you think it’s crap and you don’t watch it how come you know so much about it… huh?

    You say you are Catholic which you spelled incorrectly and, “This show just lies to the viewers on how heaven really is.”

    How come you know what heaven is? Because as far as I know no one knows what heaven is, or hell for that matter. Unless you’re already dead?? If that is the case you would be a spirit and we’d have to send Dean and Sam to salt and burn your bones!

    Your time would be better off spent learning how to spell, use grammar and punctuation instead of bashing SPN, which by the way is just a show!

    Comment by Silvertayl 57 — November 27, 2013 @ 6:27 pm

  65. @53 mys-I’m Catholic and I enjoy the show. Yea there are certain things that I can let offend me -in fact there were a few things thru the run of this show that have. The main one was when cas (as an angel) said he would kill himself (commit suicide). That just p.o’d me big time. however this is just a show-and frankly a very good show -better that most shows on the air at this time. And I can not stand people who say “this offends me and that offends me.” so we have to change what we are doing because of the complaint or through a hissy fit. If you haven’t watched the show then you need to buzz off. If you have and you let something like a show on TV offend you-you need to grow some buddy. Why let someone or something else have that much power over you???? You need to rethink your position.

    This show is on its 9th season-the ratings are fantastic at this point in its run-rare in the TV world. Maybe you need to relax and give it another shot-Don’t watch it for religion bashing-because frankly the whole show totally misrepresents religion. Angels/Demons are just characters in a story. Based loosely on lots of different religions actually. Not just Catholic. peace!!

    Comment by animal — November 27, 2013 @ 6:44 pm

  66. @60- Ok then, we’ll just go back to the usual formula, Sam gets ALL the specialness, and ALL the best storylines, almost everything will be mostly about him, while Dean goes back to being good for and having NO purpose or worth in life save to exist for Sam. Just like you want it.

    Comment by roxi — November 27, 2013 @ 9:04 pm

  67. I’m hoping the next episode finally gets us going with this angel storyline. I really didn’t care about it before, but now, it does look like the Winchesters are directly involved in that , because of Zeke. I have a new theory: Perhaps Zeke refuses to leave Sam, and takes him/his vessel into the angel war. Have we ever seen on SPN that a vessel can willingly evict an angel? I can’t remember. I know an angel needs the consent of the vessel to possess them,but now I’m not sure if they can get rid of them. Did Jimmy expel Cas?
    I haven’t watched that episode for a long time. If not, it’s possible that Zeke lied to Dean about that. Personally, I think he’s been lying to him all along, stringing him along with the promise of healing Sam while secretly he has ulterior motives. See the irony? Dean’s lying to Sam, Zeke is lying to Dean. And there’s no way Dean can know if Sam’s really healing, he has only Zeke’s word to go on.
    Man, this is bad. The writers either painted themselves in a corner they can’t get out of, or they have something really big planned. Unfortunately, given this gang of writers, I fear the former.
    Oh well, it’s just a TV show and these characters don’t really exist. (keep telling yourself that roxi, keep telling yourself that). Happy Thanksgiving!

    Comment by roxi — November 28, 2013 @ 3:13 am

  68. @60 I find myself agreeing with this Caitlin. Your views are sometimes extreme, but I am 100% behind you on this one. I feel that the Sam we knew in S1-5 has been missing for sooo long! I miss him and want him back NOW please.

    Even in Sam’s lowest point, (putting that girl into the boot (read trunk) of the car only to drink her blood later), I felt for him desperately and my heart ached for him. The point is he was never so far away that he was lost to me.

    I am not feeling like that anymore, I still love the character, but I honestly can say I am not sure who he is anymore

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 28, 2013 @ 4:11 am

  69. @Roxi, I am hoping against hope that Zeke is good. Really holding thumbs here. What if he is actually hiding from Metatron. We see metatron with Sam, but mutation doesn’t necessarily have to know that Zeke is in him. So perhaps Zeke is planning a full scale attack on heaven against metatrpn. What I can’t figure into the equation is why Dean would have to leave at all, especially the fight against metatron seeing as this would help everyone getting the angels back in heaven (I don’t believe Crow”lie” for a second)).

    Or perhaps, a wild theory I know, Crowley is actually NOT who he says he is either, that he is perhaps more to do with heaven that hell in some way. Maybe he will eventually help the boys defeat metatron.

    Can you hear how desperately desperate I am for Zeke not to be bad.

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 28, 2013 @ 4:23 am

  70. damn autocorrect not mutation but metatron

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 28, 2013 @ 4:26 am

  71. @69- Yeah, I’d like to believe that too but it seems all evidence is pointing to the contrary. In the promo, Zeke stops Dean from running to somebody or trying to warn Sam. It also appears that Zeke killed somebody important, saying “I did what I had to do”
    Since Cas just became human and is a fan favorite, I fear it’s Kevin. Maybe he’s close to finding out something from the angel tablets that is incriminating to Zeke.
    My feeling is that Dean really screwed up on a major level that is equal to Sam freeing Lucifer or Cas taking in the souls and all that went with that. Only, I don’t think there’s anything Dean can do to fix this or come back from it like Sam and Cas did. There’s no way he can ever make restitution for this. I truly hope the writers don’t take any easy way out.
    I don’t like this storyline. I think it’s a big mistake which served only to destroy Dean’s character and drive yet another wedge between the boys when I had do hoped, after last season’s crapping all over their relationship, would be restored. But since the showrunner and writers chose this path, I hope they get they do it as well as can be done, and that it gives good acting opportunities to all of them.

    Comment by roxi — November 28, 2013 @ 4:35 am

  72. @67 Roxi
    Sam being taken into an angel war, would be the ultimate guilt trip for Dean, so yes I can see it happening that way, where there is sweet-b^gger-all Dean can do about it, which leads to his going dark. I am not reading ‘dark’ like other posters are, where they speculate he turns evil, I believe he is going to go into a state of depression where he will fight recklessly, without any regard for his own life. I just HOPE they don’t follow into 2014 Dean, coz that will literally cleft my heart in twain I swear.

    I can see Cas trying to help in some way. He knows an awful lot about heaven and angels, who to trust who not to trust, so his not having any powers might actually prove very useful, in that he cannot be discovered and tracked.

    I am hoping against hope that they are able to tie all these myth arc threads into one beautiful and thunderous conclusion, where they totally an utterly surprise us.

    This happened totally when Dean drank that Phoenix ash and poisoned Eve. That was just completely out of the blue and the awesomeness of Dean at that moment was one of the best I have watched on supernatural. That was Dean at his best. A strategist and hero to the last. I want him to get back to that too.

    I cannot help but suspect that J2 have asked for some time off and this is going to influence how much time the brothers spend together. I understand this to be the case and with families who can object, but it is definitely going to affect the brother relationship for me

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 28, 2013 @ 5:07 am

  73. @72- The Eve incident was only one episode though. Dean usually doesn’t get whole season arcs, and when it does look like he will, they usually drop them.
    Dean really doesn’t have a story yet this year. But then neither, really. does Sam. But at least Jared gets to play a duel role that is winning him raves.
    It would be nice if Jensen also got a storyline that gave him this same opportunity.As it is, it seems Dean’s part in the main arc is basically over save for continuing the lie. Cas has more of a story at this point than either Sam or Dean.
    That’s why I can’t understand when some get so upset if Dean gets an episode here and there, like” Bad Boys’ because, to me anyway, he doesn’t get the major season long arcs or any real story of his own so why not just let him have a one off once in a while? I don’t think that takes anything away from Sam or Cas.They still get the major stories.

    Comment by roxi — November 28, 2013 @ 5:45 am

  74. Oh no. Reading the latest posts, a number of things are upsetting me.

    1. Don’t want the brothers to send much time apart. Like many, I had so hoped that their bond would be restored after the previous season, and they’d be working positively and together, but I guess that’s not to be. However, unlike many posters, when Sam is not Zeke, I find him pretty original Sam-like.

    2. Oh no, roxi, I hadn’t even thought of the possibility of the writers painting themselves into a corner, but knowing the history, that seems v possible! I just can’t see a way out of this situation unless they really take a silly, non plausible way out. OR they have some really unexpected awesome resolution. Which is very unlikely,

    3. Sadly, tokoloshi, your theories don’t seem v likely to happen. That would require the writers to have some originality and creativity. Fingers crossed though.

    4. What??? You mean the characters aren’t real, roxi? Noooooo.

    Comment by Tammy — November 28, 2013 @ 5:55 am

  75. Apparently, Jensen says Dean is a in a really “dark place” after all is revealed, and that the past few days of filming were very emotional for him. So, I believe Dean won’t be “going dark,” but may be very depressed after all is revealed.

    It makes me wonder if Zeke refuses to leave Sam’s body. From what we’ve been shown, once a host consents, the host is completely suppressed while the angel takes over. I believe Castiel willingly left Jimmy’s body, and Jimmy was happy for him to be gone. Zeke has been permitting Sam to have control of his own body, but as we see, Zeke can take over whenever he chooses. Plus, it doesn’t seem like Zeke is doing too much healing so either he cannot heal Sam as he said he could or he doesn’t want to heal him. Who knows?

    But I also read that Sam is suicidal in the episode after the break so maybe he does “evict” Zeke from his body. I just hope this suicidal ideation is well-explained, and that we’ll know why Sam feels this way (if it happens). As I said earlier, I take everything the actors say w/a grain of salt b/c sometimes it doesn’t play out on screen as they say.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 28, 2013 @ 7:08 am

  76. @75: I can buy Sam being suicidal. He was suicidal in the season 8 finale and he was also very accepting of dying and death in the season 9 premiere. I could easily buy Sam wanting to die to end all of his suffering. Who would want to live Sam’s life? The guy is the most miserable person ever.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 28, 2013 @ 7:34 am

  77. I think this season is a huge mess. I think it’s one of the worst seasons next to season seven. Season nine and season seven are Supernatural’s biggest misses. That’s too bad. With the ay this show is going, I almost wished it ended at season five. I see every season after season 5 as a spin off.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 28, 2013 @ 7:47 am

  78. What IS wrong with Sam every season, and what’s Dean doing?

    Season 1 = Vision-Sam.
    Dean supports Sam, and they try to find their father.
    Season 2 = Hell King-Sam.
    Dean tries to save Sam , and they try to kill the demon.
    Season 3 = Oh wow, just worried-about-Dean Sam! The writers must have messed up.
    Dean and the deal!
    Season 4 = Demon blood-Sam.
    Dean tries to stop Sam, and the seals from breaking.
    Season 5 = Lucifer-Sam.
    And they’re both in a mess, trying to stop the apocalypse.
    Season 6 = Soulless-Sam.
    Dean tries to get Sam’s soul back.
    Season 7 = Hallucinating-Sam.
    Angst-y Dean. Leviathan
    Season 8 = Imposter Sam, then Trial sick-Sam.
    They’re both ‘off’, and then Dean supports Sam in the trials.
    Season 9 = Angel-possessed Sam.
    Dean feels guilty. Not sure yet what else they’re supposed to be doing.
    What’s wrong with the show writers? Are they blind to not see the patterns? Or they perhaps sign a contract that they must :
    a. Mess Sam up.
    b. Follow the same plot pattern, or they get fired.

    Is it too much to ask that we get to see a normal, healthy Sammy, and something creative in the storyline?

    I don’t see how Sam can forcibly evict Zeke either, as wouldn’t any of the other hosts have done that before? And the angels can completely take over, and usually do, so it’s a kind of a moot point if the hosts cant even think their own thoughts,no?

    Comment by Tammy — November 28, 2013 @ 8:03 am

  79. Forgive me if there are errors above, but was having too much fun to check each season’s arc exactly…

    Comment by Tammy — November 28, 2013 @ 8:05 am

  80. You’re are right about that, Caitlin! Sam has led a pretty miserable life. When was the last time he genuinely smiled? It was probably years ago.

    Don’t forget S8. S8 was the worst season of Supernatural, IMO. I’m going to reserve judgment on this season, but can say I would likely re-watch more S9 episodes than S8 or S7.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 28, 2013 @ 8:16 am

  81. Unlike other angels, Zeke has allowed Sam some control over his body. He sold Dean on the whole thing by saying he wouldn’t just take over Sam. He’s led Dean to believe that he won’t stop Sam from rejecting him. So, that’s why Dean believes Sam can reject Zeke, and why he’s hesitant to tell Sam until Sam is fully healed.

    I think Zeke is lying – not about Sam being able to reject him but about him staying silent while Sam does it. I believe Zeke would take over Sam if Sam even tried to reject him.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 28, 2013 @ 8:20 am

  82. S8 was the worst, I agree!

    The one time I remember Sam kind of laughing recently was in a Charlie episode, when Dean said, ‘Stop laughing, Sammy’. When Charlie was in Dick Roman’s office building. Otherwise, zilch. How incredibly sad.

    Comment by Tammy — November 28, 2013 @ 9:12 am

  83. Vacationing here, so just got a chance to watch the episode. Frankly, I thought the chastity and sex jokes were funny. Loved the chastity circle Dean speech and the Suzy/Dean Spanish talk.

    While fun, and I liked it, I confess that five one-offs in a row is just too many. I know it’s good for syndication, and that’s what the writers are writing for, but the mytharc has been lost. We haven’t seen Abaddon since Ep. 2, and the sentences mentioning where Crowley and Kevin are spending their time is just annoying.

    I have no idea whether Zeke is good or bad, but the writers have strung “the big secret” out long enough.

    @ Caitlin: Sam has a very passive role so far but, honestly, I think they need to reset the character. The ‘what’s wrong with Sam’ thing every year is because his 5-year story ended and I don’t think they know what to do with him now. The thing about this season, though, and something I like is that Sam’s story is about Dean and Dean’s story (if ‘a big secret’ can be considered a story) is about Sam. What role either of them will have in the mytharc, when the show finally gets onto the mytharc, I don’t know. I hope they are involved.

    That said, I do think Sam will have a bigger role after the mid-season break. Jared’s baby is due in December sometime, and I think that’s why Sam has been lighter this season. I don’t mind that one bit, and I don’t have much sympathy for those that bemoan poor Sam and no POV from Sam. I’m very happy to see Dean have a relevant part this season. That’s been lacking since the end of S4. It’s time. And I am happy the the focus of the brothers is on each other. It put them BOTH back into the story, and that hasn’t happened in four years.

    One thing I wished the show would have kept going in the show and hasn’t is that Sam was always the one questioning hunting and Dean the one supporting it. I liked that dichotomy and it kept hunting relevant and in the story. That’s been lost since the angel storylines took over, but would have worked even if they had reversed the boys’ roles.

    So, good episode for a first-time effort, but the show needs to put more focus on the mytharc. I doubt that is going to happen, since they are writing for syndication now. I’m choosing to just enjoy it for what it is, since the glory days are over, but we still have both Js on the screen every week.

    Comment by Sheri — November 28, 2013 @ 10:33 am

  84. I’d like Zeke to be a character that makes decisions that will hurt the boys in the beginning but that he will actually be one of those “the end justifies the means” characters and would later, later on turn out to be an ally and even a friend. Maybe it’s because I was intrigued by his portrayal in episode 1 and I’d like to see the actor back :)

    However, that scenario could pose a problem because in a way that spot is reserved for Cas unless they move Cas more securely to the “always friends” camp instead of “a friend who keeps screwing up so royally it almost ends the relationship”.

    Sam being suicidal :/ I could see it happening because of the effects of possession, what he will be forced to do as Zeke and feeling betrayed by the only person he thought he could count on.

    Zeke telling Dean that Sam can eject him at any time has never sat right with me because I’m always reminded of Cas’ host Jimmy. I don’t remember the details of that story but Jimmy was very bitter. Although I guess angel possession has to be fundamentally different from demon possession so maybe if the host really, really wants to they can take over their own body but most are unable and that’s why the angel in them could kill their girlfriend etc. and they wouldn’t be able to do anything about it. Sam did throw off Lucifer so Zeke would have a reason to worry.

    Caitlin & Lisa1, I agree that Sam’s seems to have been pretty miserable. I would love to see them bring back a little bit of the lightheartedness that they had earlier on. I mean something like prank wars is classic and it wouldn’t fit the boys now but I think there are still ways to bring back the fun once in a while. Just everyday stuff like in Mystery Spot. At least for me it’s pretty bad how startling it was to see Sam’s full on smiles and dimples in Season 7, Time For a Wedding.

    @Sheri: Abaddon had a talk with Crowley in Heaven Can’t Wait.
    I think the problem with the show is that they outlined something like “Okay, in the midseason finale Sam finds out”. So the writers’ hands are tied and they have to tell a story without actually getting to tell it. This situation now with Zeke reminds me of season 6 soulless Sam. Meaning the viewers have more information than the characters and we are left to wait for the characters to catch up.

    Lisa1, I agree that we have to be careful with what the actors say. Like even if Jensen is emotionally drained after a long day at work, him giving his all might not actually show in the final product. And don’t forget the old anime interview where Jared went on this long speech about how season 6 was gonna be like and in the end he turns to Jensen and says to him how he basically sprouted some bullshit :D I mean even when season 9 had already started filming Jensen admits they are just gonna see what sticks?? A weird way to do a show if you ask me.

    Comment by San — November 28, 2013 @ 11:54 am

  85. The song “The Other Side” by David Gray reminds me a lot of Sam. I really hope he does find peace at the end of the series. Meaning yes, I hope Sam does die in the end. Because honestly, that is the only way that Sam’s suffering is going to end. He would be in a better place and I think in the end, death is Sam’s happiness.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 28, 2013 @ 1:50 pm

  86. I can understand Sam finding out about Zeke and feeling suicidal working a couple of different ways. If zeke refuses to leave, sam’s screwed. At best, Zeke will let him stay conscious so long as he doesn’t try to eject him or kill him (either Zeke or Sam)…or do anything else he doesn’t care for which could be quite a few things depending on what Zeke’s endgame is. If Sam does eject him early, he could end up still severely injured/impaired, and essentially feel like Bobby did when he couldn’t walk.

    On top of that, this is exactly the sort of thing Sam was trying to avoid by saying he’d go with Death, if Death promised no one (read Dean) was able to make any sort of deal to bring him back. Now instead of Dean going to Hell, Sam is (my guess) going to end up just aware enough to know he’s not really in control of his own body.

    @84 – I don’t know if this is considered a normal angel possession situation, since Sam didn’t know what he was saying yes to. He just said he trusted Dean or something like that, if I recall. But, like you said, he got control back from an archangel so he could theoretically tell Zeke to get. Which might be another reason for Zeke to keep Sam weak.

    Comment by Sarah — November 28, 2013 @ 4:18 pm

  87. San, I finally read the interview, and Jared says Sam may not remember his unconscious state In the premiere but Sam does remember how he felt after the trials, and that feeling of being done with life is still there for Sam. He values his life and life, in general, but also feels he’s done all he can on this Earth and would like to just die now.

    So, that is Sam’s head space when he learns about Zeke, and is what is likely fueling his suicidal thoughts. That’s the feel I got from the premiere (I.e., that Sam wanted to die), so the show appears to be continuing with that angle.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 28, 2013 @ 4:21 pm

  88. Oh, and I don’t think this concept messes with Castiel/Jimmy. Castiel left Jimmy’s body of his own free will, and Jimmy was happy with that. When Jimmy said yes again, he knew it was going to feel worse than it did before, and he knew he’d never have control of his body again. I think the angel completely suppresses the host so while the host may know what’s happening, he/she cannot do anything about it.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 28, 2013 @ 4:25 pm

  89. @86. Yeah, Sam’s depression could be largely because his body was shutting down, he was supposed to die. Kind of like Dean in s2. When Zeke started healing Sam, at first it put Sam in a good mood and made him energetic but in a way that was an illusion in the end.

    My guess is that most get tricked when they say yes. (Televangelists encouraging people or an already possessed pressuring a loved one to do the same without revealing their true intentions). They don’t have the full picture of the nature of angels so they have no idea they might end up as a vessel for an angel who is all about smiting the humankind.

    Re: He values his life and life, in general, but also feels he’s done all he can on this Earth and would like to just die now.

    That is sad especially considering that in a way the brothers have existed for each other. But it’s like Sam thinks Dean will be more alright than Dean thinks he would actually be if Sam dies.

    I wonder whether we’ll get something similar to 3.05 Bedtime Stories where the crossroads demon’s line: “No more desperate, sloppy, needy Dean. You can finally be free” got to Sam because even though the demon was wrong in her assessment in general there was an uncomfortable hint of truth.

    Re: I think the angel completely suppresses the host so while the host may know what’s happening, he/she cannot do anything about it.

    I think so, too, and I feel like there is some crucial timeframe when the vessel has to act if they ever hope to regain control. I think it’s up to the angel to decide whether they want the mind of the vessel to be present. For Lucifer it would probably be fun to have Sam aware for some of it but I think Jimmy’s consciousness is pretty much gone although Cas wasn’t immune in My Bloody Valentine (hunger). Also Michael’s line to Dean: “It could be worse. You know, unlike my brothers, I won’t leave you a drooling mess when I’m done wearing you”.

    Comment by San — November 29, 2013 @ 2:27 am

  90. Maybe Crowley has a way of expelling angels/demons from humans’ bodies. It would be interesting to see Crowley and Dean working together in the enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of thing.

    I never watched the ep where Crowley said that the angels can never go back to heaven. How does he know this and is he telling the truth does any one know

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 29, 2013 @ 2:48 am

  91. San, I think Sam is monumentally depressed w/the state of his life. Everything he has attempted to do has failed miserably and caused more problems than anything else. The guy genuinely does not seem happy.

    I don’t believe we’ll get that BS nonsense this time around. Sam loves Dean, but also feels he’s more trouble for Dean than anything else. Jared mentioned something about Sam thinking, “What’s so special about him (i.e., Sam) for Dean to go through all of this?” Sam’s self-worth is definitely in the crapper. I think he feels the longer he’s on this world, the more likely he’ll mess up something so he probably wishes he had completed the trials b/c at least his death would have done some good and his life would have had some meaning.

    Hopefully, they’ll explore some of these feelings for Sam when the time comes but I won’t hold my breath for any Sam POV.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 29, 2013 @ 5:43 am

  92. Yeah, that is a good assessment from Jared.

    I could see how Dean’s dedication (love, dependence, neediness, whatever it is) could be a heavy burden on the heart because as much as they get from being number one in each other’s lives it’s so intense that it can be too much. They are never gonna be “free” when the other one is around.

    Also, I think that Sam being the one true vessel for Lucifer etc. kind of makes it so that if Sam were close to death in a peaceful way he should be let go. Who knows if that would matter in the end, maybe he could be resurrected by someone like Lucifer even if Death tries to make it so that Sam couldn’t be brought back. I dunno, I’m just reminded of cases where a “monster” doesn’t kill themselves although it might benefit the good of the many (even if said monster isn’t murdering others).

    Comment by San — November 29, 2013 @ 6:11 am

  93. I don’t believe Sam feels burdened by Dean’s love for him. I think it is a matter of Sam having low self-esteem or no sense of self-worth. He doesn’t think his life is worth the lengths Dean goes to save him. That’s why he wanted to make sure he would remain dead if he went w/Death b/c he doesn’t want to be brought back to only cause more trouble and problems for Dean again.

    As I’ve said before, I believe all of this is leading up to Sam dying in the series finale. He will die and finally be at peace, and Dean will “let him go.”

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 29, 2013 @ 7:56 am

  94. Sadly, Lisa, I too think that’s the way it is going to end. There are several ways to end a “buddy” show.
    1. Keep-on-keeping on. Starsky & Hutch kept solving crimes; we just didn’t see it. Works better for a procedural show. Would have been the ending for SPN if the show had ended after Season Two (show was in danger of cancellation from the new CW network).
    2. Blaze of Glory. Butch & Sundance. Would have been SPN’s ending (I think), if the show had really ended after Season Five. I’d love to know Kripke’s original planned ending.
    3. Letting Go. In Nip/Tuck, Christian let Shawn go find his happiness.
    At this point I fear the show has gone too far for any ending but #3.

    Comment by RS — November 29, 2013 @ 9:25 am

  95. I agree, RS. Too many anvils are dropping re: Sam wanting to die and Dean being able to let him go. I always thought the show should end in your #1 scenario. A shot from the trunk of the Impala with Dean saying, “Come on, Sammy. We’ve got work to do,” and then Dean slamming the trunk. Done.

    I now believe the show will most definitely end w/Sam’s death, and probably Dean with his own family somewhere and out of hunting. Sam will probably die saving the world (or Dean), and unlike the other times, it will go right for him so no harm is done. Dean will finally accept his brother’s death and will get on w/his life. Neither brother likes hunting so I can’t see Dean continuing to do it once Sam is dead. Dean will be free to do something he actually enjoys, and to get a wife and some kids.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 29, 2013 @ 10:03 am

  96. Lisa, RS – I agree with most of what you’re saying, but I’d actually rather both die. I believe Kripke has said his original ending was basically what we saw in Season 5, minus Sam staring through the window. I can see why from a story-telling perspective, that’s a good ending, but personally, both then and now, an ending like that would make me want to punch something. To do the same thing five years later, and kill Sam and expect Dean to just go live out the rest of his life happily seems really unrealistic. That’d be a massive character change, I’d rather they not try to make Dean have in a year’s time

    I’d rather they both go out, saving the world, and we can all think of them in their shared Heaven together. If they wanted to show where John and Mary were hiding during Other Side of the Moon, that’d be great too. (It was on TNT this morning.)

    Comment by Sarah — November 29, 2013 @ 10:22 am

  97. Yeah, it’s not a burden and if the other one would die it wouldn’t let the one left behind to be “free” in any case. They are under each other’s skin. I guess what I’m getting at is that Dean will go so far for Sam that it can be overwhelming.

    Also I thought it was interesting what leviathan Dean had to say about the real Dean (although he is an unreliable witness): “I can’t stand the guy. Talk about a hero complex. And he doesn’t have relationships. No, he has applications for sainthood”. How does that read to you guys? I think it might mean that Dean sort of puts people on a pedestal.

    Comment by San — November 29, 2013 @ 10:36 am

  98. (Also I think “applications to sainthood” might mean Dean puts the ones he cares about so ahead of himself it’s saintlike.)

    Sarah, the heaven episode was a game changer for me.

    I’m not advocating for double suicide but since we know how they could be together eternally happy it doesn’t make much sense for the other one to just hang out on Earth in mourning and live a half-satisfactory domestic life. (At least when they have fixed Heaven.) So either the other one would still need to feel like there is work to be done to rid the world of supernatural evil (so no one else would have to live without their brother) or one of them would need to be in a frame of mind where they are in love and ready to start a family,

    Comment by San — November 29, 2013 @ 10:54 am

  99. Re: To do the same thing five years later, and kill Sam and expect Dean to just go live out the rest of his life happily seems really unrealistic. That’d be a massive character change, I’d rather they not try to make Dean have in a year’s time

    I’d hate for that to happen, too, because such a big part of why Dean’s character is so great is the lengths he’ll go even if it gets darker more selfish shades. However, from the writers’ perspective I don’t see much point in Dean allowing an angel to possess Sam to prevent him from dying unless it’s gonna ultimately change Dean’s outlook on himself and Sam. Meaning the writers will “teach him a lesson” so if Dean could have a do-over he would choose differently. (Whereas in the past I think he was pretty defiant about making a deal with the crossroads demon.)

    Comment by San — November 29, 2013 @ 11:08 am

  100. Call me an idealist or whatever, but I just cannot believe that after seeing the boys miserable for 9/10 years, they’d give us an ending with one of them dying. I know everyone is talking about the foreshadowing, or the direction the show seems to be going in, but I don’t want to believe that. However much Dean learns to let Sam go, they are just too close, their lives too intertwined, for him to live happily ever after Sam dying. Live, yes. Happily, no. So what’s the point? That’s my opinion, anyway.

    I want my happy ending no. 1, with them driving off in the Impala (both in positive frames of minds). Yes, and a “We’ve got work to do” (by Dean this time) would be perfect. If not that, okay, I’d settle for the ‘blaze of glory’ ending.

    Comment by Tammy — November 29, 2013 @ 11:15 am

  101. Dean living happily after Sam’s death is as alien to me as Sam not looking for Dean. Lets hope show has learned a lesson

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 29, 2013 @ 12:28 pm

  102. Sadly, I think Carver thinks it was mature for Sam to NOT look for his brother, and he will think it is mature for Dean to simply mourn Sam’s impending death and not try to bring him back. That will be progress in Carver’s eyes.

    As San said, what is the point of all this if not to “teach Dean a lesson” about how to go on w/o Sam. That is where the story seems to be headed. I don’t care for it either, but I think that’s not it will end: Sam dead and Dean in a new non-hunting life.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 29, 2013 @ 1:08 pm

  103. Yes what is with Carver and his “maturing” crap. He talked about it during season 8 and again now during season 9. It seems like his definition of maturing is taking away from why Sam and Dean’s relationship is so compelling in the first place.

    Comment by San — November 29, 2013 @ 1:33 pm

  104. What bothers me is that Jared, A LEAD OF THIS SHOW, has had 23 days off of shooting so far. To me, that is problematic. Season nine is a HUGE miss (an even bigger miss than season seven and eight combined) in my opinion and if the writers seriously don’t get their shit together regarding Sam’s character and his POV about what happened to him this season, I will quit this show without hesitation. I have plenty of people I know who have quit this show because of the neglectful and bad writing. I’m tired of the Dean Emoting Show. This is Supernatural. The writers should start treating it like it is. Because right now, I’m wishing that the series did end at season five. It seems to me that the writers have ran out of ideas and don’t know what to do with the characters anymore. There is’t even a good storyline or plot this season. It goes to show you that SPN has overstayed its welcome and has ran it’s course. The real SPN ended at season five.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 29, 2013 @ 1:43 pm

  105. Yeah, don’t they realize that’s what made us watch the show in the first place, the unique relationship between the brothers? That, to me, IS the point of the show. Unfortunately, Carver and I don’t see it the same way :( .

    Ha ha, Lisa1, your subconscious made you write “I think that’s not it will end: Sam dead and Dean….”.

    Comment by Tammy — November 29, 2013 @ 2:06 pm

  106. Yeah, no ensemble cast for me please. There are some shows that do it beautifully but Supernatural has its own thing going on. Why not embrace that.

    Jensen and Jared might need some time off and that’s fine but I’m sure if the quality was there they would be re-energized. I’m going as far as saying that there is a golden age of TV going on and lots of really great actors are working on TV shows instead of movies. Jared has the dual role of Zeke and Sam which must be fun for him professionally but other than that Sam’s story hasn’t been that memorable this season (nor has Dean’s really). I would appreciate it if the writers dropped little seeds along the way and not just wait till the midseason finale to do something with the story.

    I think what works the best is when Sam and Dean are at the center and other characters are kind of orbiting around. Then some great performances by guest stars (like Alistair) and we are good to go!

    Comment by San — November 29, 2013 @ 3:02 pm

  107. @104- It’s NEVER been the Dean emoting show. To me and many others, it’s always been the Sam is the most special creature on Earth show and everything must always been about HIM. This is the first season in a long time that Dean got any damn attention, and of course, you as an enthusiastic Dean hater, can’t take it. Of course you can state an opinion about Sam, your favorite, but why the constant digs and insults towards Dean? Everybody already knows how you feel about/hate him, it’s old news. And don’t worry, I have no doubt that soon the whole thing will center around Sam again.
    I favor Dean, but I’m not constantly ragging on Sam. I love him too. And even if I didn’t, I wouldn’t be getting in little digs at Sam almost every post I wrote.
    I’m sorry, I really tried not to let you bother me me, but damn it, I’m so tired of every single post you make putting Dean down. Everybody gets it, you hate his guts and feel EVERYTHING should always be all about Sam. You don’t have to keep repeating it. There’s no reason you can’t state your love for Sam without always running down Dean.
    I apologize everybody, I know this doesn’t make me any better than her, and I really shouldn’t care, it’s just a TV show but it’s really starting to take away from any enjoyment of this board, at least for me.
    Ok go ahead and flame me, I don’t care anymore.

    Comment by roxi — November 29, 2013 @ 5:56 pm

  108. Spoiler

    I just read that in episode 10 Sam cries. For some reason that already has an effect on me. I don’t think the boys have really made the other one cry that directly before(?)

    Now I just wonder whether Dean’s dark place is because he lost Sam since Sam can’t be around him anymore or because Zeke replaces Sam.

    Comment by San — November 29, 2013 @ 7:05 pm

  109. Roxi – No flames here, but you should really just ignore the comments that upset you. Not everyone is going to like Dean, and not everyone is going to like Sam. Everyone is entitled to feel how she/he wants about the show and the characters. Caitlin sees it as Dean-centered. You see it as Sam-centered. You guys are never going to agree, which is fine.

    Caitlin is just sharing her opinion on the show. I really don’t think she’s trying to engage anyone in an argument or fight. She just feels how she feels.


    San, I read the same thing. Apparently, this is also the episode where Sam is “suicidal,” which probably explains the crying.

    I do worry that there won’t be a proper explanation for Sam’s suicidal ideation though. I can come up w/my own reasons for his feelings, but I’d rather we hear it directly from him. So, I am hoping that show spends some time w/him. If he wants to commit suicide, we really need to know why. This is a serious thing that shouldn’t just be brushed over and done in a shoddy way. We’ll see.

    I’m less worried about Dean’s “dark place” b/c I feel the show usually does an excellent job in explaining his POV and motivations. So, I assume his sadness/depression will be adequately explained. However, if Dean is “going dark” . . . that will need a good explanation. From everything I’ve now read (and caught up on), it seems like Dean is in a “dark place” as a result of this reveal, not “going dark,” which are two completely different things in my mind.

    I guess I am still worried about how this will all play out. Aren’t these the same writers that brought us the Amy fiasco or last year’s Benny (contrived) drama? Can they actually tell a compelling, dramatic arc where BOTH characters are given a POV and reasoning for his actions? I don’t know.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 29, 2013 @ 7:41 pm

  110. I gotta say that 23 days off sounds really high :/ Most regular people don’t get that many days off from work let alone an actor who is playing one of the two leads on a show that is supposed to be about two brothers! Not saying the show needs to run Jared and Jensen to the ground but man…

    Lisa1, I’m on the same page as you as I hope they would give insight into both of the brothers’ thoughts. Before I haven’t really felt the urgency that some fans feel about neglected POV’s (mostly Sam’s), but now I see it too. He just hasn’t had that much to say this season and thus the scene with Jodi made me immediately go hmm now we’ll get to hear what Sam thinks. That’s pretty bad. It shouldn’t be such a rare thing to find out how one of the two main characters is feeling.

    They could have made the episodes we have seen so far much meatier just by having more POV from Sam and Dean would have been an integral part of it. I think they have now set the bar very high for the mid-season finale because if they don’t bring it I just have to question why they have been saving off so much of their firepower.

    Yes I like that distinction between going dark and being in a dark place. I hope it’s the latter. Let Dean stay Dean and deal with the situation 100% as himself. I think that would be a better story because it would have long-lasting effects on the brothers’ relationship.

    Sam crying… I can’t blame him. It’s like kicks just keep on coming even when he is already on the ground. It just never ends with him.

    Comment by San — November 29, 2013 @ 8:06 pm

  111. @109- Lisa, it isn’t that she has to love Dean, it’s just that it seems that every single post of hers always has to have a dig in there, and I don’t understand why. I have hardly read a post of hers that doesn’t find a way to get a little jab in there, and I guess I just don’t get why that’s necessary, but whatever.

    Comment by roxi — November 29, 2013 @ 8:44 pm

  112. Actually I’m kinda glad that there’s going to be a break. I need to step back a little.

    Comment by roxi — November 29, 2013 @ 9:02 pm

  113. Roxi agree with you, this show can make one a little crazy sometimes, so yeah I know how you feel! I can’t stand it when one of the brothers are not given their due.

    What I can’t understand about the Jared days off is surely he is going to need more days off after the baby is due and isn’t Jensen a new father too? So the new baby arriving doesn’t seem to explain it. Perhaps their is tension on set. 9 years of filming together, who knows but they always seem to be amicable in public together.

    I will be so sad if they disregard Dean in the second half of this season like they did in season 8 because BY FAR the only interesting thing that happened in that season happened in the second half, nobody will disagree with that! And judging from the filler episode number the first half of this season, it seems like most of the action is going to happen in the second half where they presumably concentrate on Sam’s character. I really REALLY can understand Roxi’s POV. The thing is, the way they have designed the season almost seems to be deliberately creating this fandom division between the brothers. Sam fans are not getting his POV AT ALL and I agree with them. However Dean fans are left with this needy desperate brother with nothing but Sam on his mind. Gone is the intelligent warrior and strategist we all fell in love with. Instead we have the one thing he has always managed to do right, take care of his brother, taken away from him. TPTB are really taking an unnecessary risk with this direction IMO

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 29, 2013 @ 9:51 pm

  114. LIsa, I agree, I do think it’s a ‘dark place’, rather than Dean ‘going dark’. That wouldn’t fit, anyway. The situation and the character, but him being in a dark place is completely understandable.

    I hope, after all the breaking of the boys (together and each one), they find some ways to bring them up again. Simply because my heart can’t take this much heartbreak. I know they’re just fictional characters, but damn. My heart bleeds for them.

    Comment by Tammy — November 29, 2013 @ 9:52 pm

  115. That’s my point, too, tokoloshi. How can Jared have almost a whole month off when Jensen who had a newborn got less than 10 days off? We would be giving the writers a free pass if we believed that it’s about having a small child. Sam has been around but he just hasn’t had that much to do.

    I get that the show has to write within certain parameters. The mid-season finale is important and they need to save some good stuff for that episode but not at the expense of the episodes that come before it. That’s why I hope they could just let the story unfold organically. I hope that once they get over the mid-season hurdle it’s nothing but fireworks because then they would be setting up for the season finale with nothing to lose. No reason to have filler episodes although I’m sure there will be.

    Comment by San — November 30, 2013 @ 3:20 am

  116. Why is everyone so concerned with how much time Jared has off? Where did this 23 days even come from? Unless I skipped a post, near as I can tell, Caitlin pulled it out of the air. Assuming there is a source somewhere, unless that person is Jared or someone on the set everyday, none of us know if it’s actually true. Even if it is true, shows film scenes and episodes out of order to accommodate any number of things, that I’m guessing the people posting here aren’t aware of. Jensen said himself filming him just crawling out of his grave in Lazarus Rising took two days that Jared had off.

    I’m as obsessive as the next fan (see above reference) so, seriously, point me in the direction of the source of that info and I apologize for insinuating it was made up, but even if it was straight from Jared’s twitter, my main point is the same: calm down. It’s a show made by a bunch of real people with real lives and I’m sure there was a reason Jared either needed or ended up with a stretch of time off. I’m also sure that reason was not to annoy fans of the show or of Sam.

    Comment by Sarah — November 30, 2013 @ 6:45 am

  117. It’s from Burcon reports but I’m not sure if there is a video of it.

    I’m just not buying the needing time off theory :/ Jared seemed super excited about the new season so I doubt he would be asking for favours so early on in the season. I remember reading a quote where he said that one point he had a meltdown and now when he asks for time off they know he really means it.

    How many days someone spends on set doesn’t really matter, what is put in the final product does. The thing is that Sam’s role has been quite diminished. Zeke/Sam thing fools the eye because other than that what has Sam really done?

    Comment by San — November 30, 2013 @ 7:08 am

  118. I’ve also read that Dean will bond with Zeke. Don’t know what the hell that means but Zeke gave a very meaningful look to Dean in 9.03 when he said he can be useful. It just makes me a little sad if Zeke is still in Sam’s body when that bonding happens. Sam: “Who are you gonna turn to next time instead of me? Another angel, another — another vampire?”

    Comment by San — November 30, 2013 @ 8:30 am

  119. Its NOT TRUE what Caitlin said about Jared being off set for 23 days. Clif has been tweeting about BOTH J’s as recently as last week.

    Comment by animal — November 30, 2013 @ 8:55 am

  120. I feel the reason we have had these little Dean centered episodes is because we have seen him go from unsure to absolutely OMG what have I done. The season finale will bring it to a head. But I do think that Zeke will become the brothers helper (take cas’s angel place) sometime soon. Because throughout the angel run on SPN most ALL the angels with exception of those wanting the apocalypse to happen-Liked Dean and wanted to help him. Zeke will be no different. I still think Metatron is the better angel over the other one (guy with the beard in the promo??). And he too will be an ally of the brothers.

    I still think the second half of the season though will be ALL angel,all demon all the time. A lot of Cas. A lot of Crowley, with the brothers circling them.

    Comment by animal — November 30, 2013 @ 9:11 am

  121. I meant mid-season finale not season finale-darn it!!

    Comment by animal — November 30, 2013 @ 9:12 am

  122. The Jared having 23 days off is from BurCon reports. If the report is actually true, then that is bad. Jared is a lead actor, he shouldn’t be having that many days off set. Having a baby is not an excuse. Many actors have children, it doesn’t stop them from working and doing their job. I just find that odd.

    And yes, I want Sam POV. Because for the last 9 years, I haven’t gotten any. All I’ve gotten is Sam Winchester as a plot device. That is not good characterization and writing. I don’t want the show to be all about Sam, I want Sam POV so that the audience, me included, can get a clear insight into his emotions and his feelings. Sam doesn’t even come off as a human. He comes off as a device and that really upsets me and bothers me as a viewer of this show since the very beginning. The writers need to start treating Sam as an actual character with emotions and not just some robot that they use as a plot device to tell their story. The lack of Sam POV is really annoying. I don’t hate Dean. In fact, i love Dean just fine. I may prefer Sam, but still, I love Dean just fine. What I do feel is some resentment towards Dean. Because people connect with him emotionally, because he gets POV. SAM DOES NOT. That is why people don’t empathize or sympathize with Sam. Why can’t they balance it out by making both brothers part of the plot and giving BOTH brothers POV and insight into their emotions? Why does it have to be all about Sam in regards to the plot, but only Dean gets the emotional POV? It is not fair for those of us who want to understand Sam better.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 30, 2013 @ 9:20 am

  123. The 23 days thing came from Jared’s M&G. Apparently, the girl who posted that has given very accurate info/reports in the past so people think she can be believed.

    That said, if Jared has genuinely had 23 days off compared to Jared’s 9 or whatever (less than 10 we are told), I, personally, do not see it reflecting in the show. Sam hasn’t been remarkably absent….yet. He’s been in every episode thus far, and in the same capacity he’s usually used. San, I don’t think Sam’s role has been diminished. It may happen though. Maybe Sam will disappear after this secret is revealed. Who knows? I will definitely call foul if Sam/Jared suddenly disappears from the show but I haven’t seen that yet.

    I do agree that it’s much more likely that the writers find Sam/Jared more expendable than Dean/Jensen so that’s probably why Jared always has more time off than Jensen.


    Sam finds out next week so unless Dean and Zeke bond in the next episode, it must occur AFTER Sam finds out. So, Sam may not expel Zeke or Zeke may take control of Sam’s body. If that happens, Dean will have no choice but to bond with Zeke. I think the latter will occur. 9.10 is also when Sam is supposedly suicidal so maybe he just gives up and let’s Zeke do his thing. I don’t know. Hopefully, the show actually explains this well.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 30, 2013 @ 9:29 am

  124. Don’t read if you are not into spoilers
    I am hopeful that Zeke has good intentions, and that it turns out that Dean’s decision to save Sam doesn’t harm either brother long term. I am racking my brains to find a way for him to be good but Dean to be in a ‘dark place’. The only thing that would make Dean’s world dark is if something happened to Sam.

    Perhaps Sam finds out about Zeke, rains down on and basically disowns Dean, Dean leaves the bunker (the tearful scene). Only after Dean leaves does Sam realise that Zeke stays or he dies. I don’t know but maybe Zeke and Sam can talk to each other (has this been done before?) and Zeke convinces Sam to help fight the angel war. Maybe Metatron is truly good (but I can’t see how since he wasn’t very pleasant about taking Cas’s grace) and that this is all a ruse and even Cas is in on the secret (but doesn’t know it yet). This way will allow Dean to be friendly/bond with Zeke, and allow Sam to be in cahoots with Metatron. But it still doesn’t explain why Dean goes to a dark place. Perhaps it is only for a short space of time. I can’t wait to see the angsty tearful scene.

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 30, 2013 @ 9:32 am

  125. And that should be “Jensen’s” 9, not Jared! An edit button would be useful :-)

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 30, 2013 @ 9:33 am

  126. I didn’t see anywhere where Jared or anybody said 23 days off- He said he had “a lot of days off”-no number attached. Whatever – He has been in every episode -playing Sam/Zeke wonderfully. He did say in his Meet and Greet that he will be working a lot more in the second half of the season. so there is that for you Sam must have all the time on screen people.

    Comment by animal — November 30, 2013 @ 9:46 am

  127. Re: Sam is supposedly suicidal so maybe he just gives up and let’s Zeke do his thing.

    Man that would for sure bring on the angst. Zeke walking around in Sam’s body and Dean having to deal with it and even bond.

    I think whatever bonding happens will first start off because of some sort of work-related common goal like with Cas when he was still in angel of the Lord mode.

    Comment by San — November 30, 2013 @ 10:13 am

  128. Just had a thought
    What ever happened to season 5 Jesse (the antichrist). Wasn’t he able to destroy the host of heaven. Thinking that he could be a useful tool in this angel war

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 30, 2013 @ 10:26 am

  129. Yeah…..Dean could be in a dark place if Zeke tells him that Sam gave Zeke full control of his body and doesn’t want to be present anymore. That keeps Zeke as the good guy, puts Dean in a dark place because Sam has essentially abandoned him, allows Zeke and Dean to bond in a less awkward way than if Zeke suppressed Sam and refused to vacate his body, and plays into Sam’s suicidal thoughts.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 30, 2013 @ 10:39 am

  130. 123- What makes any of you think that somehow Sam’s role has been diminished? The whole Winchester story this season so far( only 8 episodes in folks!) has been about Sam. Dean’s only real part was the decision and keeping the lie going. I agree that Sam doesn’t have much of a story yet this season but really, neither does Dean. Also, Lisa, what on earth would make you think that Sam is more expendable than Dean in the writer’s eyes? If that were the case, you’d think SOMETHING anything, would be about Dean, but it rarely is. It sounds as though some of you believe that there is this conspiracy to get rid of Jared or something. I thought that last season, given the fact that the writers never wanted to even mention Dean’s name, there was far more evidence that they had something against Jensen then they do this season again Jared, but really, I just think they don’t have a clue what direction to take either character.
    Is it possible that Jared WANTED some extra days off?
    And Caitlin, since you were more thoughtful in your explanations, it doesn’t sound as off putting, but still,why would you resent Dean just because you feel you’re not getting Sam POV? I certainly don’t resent Sam despite my feeling that most of the show revolves around him and he gets all the important stories and acting showcases.I’d rather see some Sam POV and see Dean having some of the importance storywise, an important story that’s about HIM, not Sam or Cas.
    We are only 8 episodes in. That’s not even half the season yet. Let’s see where it goes.

    Comment by roxi — November 30, 2013 @ 10:44 am

  131. I can’t see where Dean would bond with the entity who made his little brother want to give up. If Dean does that, as much as I love him, I will be severely pissed at him and it will just be another nail in the coffin of his character. I REALLY hope that Sam’s suicidal thoughts are brief. I see there is an upcoming episode called”Road Trip”. I really hope it’s Dean that leaves this time, thinking he’s ruined everything for Sam and everyone else and should go. Then we can see Sam’s POV as he works through his pain while throwing himself into the MOL. Also, he and Cas can bone over their shared pain and betrayed feelings.

    Comment by roxi — November 30, 2013 @ 10:50 am

  132. Roxi, according to my tablet, I’m 123, but I don’t think you were referring to me.

    But to answer your other question, I think the show would move along fine without Sam. I think it would be much more difficult to film without Jensen/Dean as he is the POV character. The writers clearly have no insight into Sam and don’t understand him. I also feel there is no desire to understand Sam. I agree with Caitlin that Sam is used more as a plot device than as an actual character with feelings and a POV. That is why Dean is rarely completely gone from a Sam centric episode, but Sam disappears during Dean centric ones or is made to awkwardly excuse himself so Dean and the guest star can have a private moment.

    It’s just this feeling I have. I could see the show writing a few Sam less episodes but I can’t seem them doing more than ONE Dean less episode. Anyway, that’s JMO.

    Now, having said all that, I still don’t think Sam has been “missing” from the episodes we’ve seen thus far. If Jared has had 23 days off, it has NOT been reflected in what I have been watching. I haven’t noticed in large absence of Sam. Again, that’s JMO.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 30, 2013 @ 10:59 am

  133. When is the “Road Trip” episode?

    I hear what you’re saying, Roxi, but I can’t see any other way Dean and Zeke will bond. To bond, he has to be around in a significant way, so unless TP returns, I’m guessing they bond while Zeke is in Sam.

    People were also mentioning a lack of Sam spoilers and J2 going to the writers to make sure there are actual sustained consequences to Dean’s choice so this could allow for that.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 30, 2013 @ 11:05 am

  134. Sam’s role isn’t diminished when it comes to the story arch. Obviously, he is very important because of the Zeke thing. My problem is that I would have liked to see Sam give more of himself, where his head is. Then maybe Sam’s scene with Jodi wouldn’t have been so confusing.

    Let’s take something like 4.15 Death Takes a Holiday. Sam gives a lame answer to what happened with Alastair and Dean goes: “Sam, do me a favor. If you’re gonna keep your little secrets, I can’t really stop you, but just don’t treat me like an idiot, okay?”.

    I’m not saying the writers should have had the brothers more at odds but there should definitely have been more of the brothers relating to one another. Or show how Dean is distancing himself from Sam in small ways and how Sam can sense something is different but doesn’t really want to shine light to it.

    Comment by San — November 30, 2013 @ 11:06 am

  135. San, I couldn’t agree more that Sam’s POV has been sorely missing from this story, but, sadly, I feel that is par for the course with this show. I can’t say it surprises me or was intentional. They never think to spend time on how Sam feels about whatever crazy thing is happening to him until the very end.

    It is very bad writing, but Kripke started the trend, and it has only continued. That’s why I hope this new separation is explained, and any suicidal thoughts from Sam are thoroughly explored. I’m not holding my breath though!

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 30, 2013 @ 11:24 am

  136. roxi, you have a valid point but maybe Jensen used the word “bond” for a lack of a better word. My prediction is that whatever bonding happens it’s gonna be more like Dean and Cas in season 4: there is conflict but still some shared understanding yet shaky enough that there is going to be a falling out.

    Yeah, I feel that Sam is convenient character for them in a sense that they can basically throw whatever they want at him and he’ll deal with it believably and they’ll get to have Dean working overtime to save Sam. It gives great character moments for Dean <3 but Sam's perspective is left lacking. However, these spoilers indicate that we'll get to hear Sam loud and clear in the upcoming episodes. I just hope we could always get insight into both of the brothers and didn't have to wait for Sam to have a mental breakdown before we get his. (Funny how similar thoughts we have Lisa1!)

    Re: Sam is made to awkwardly excuse himself so Dean and the guest star can have a private moment.

    Bwahahha I have seen the same thing, it's some sort of running joke now. What happened to the Sammy who was so liked by his college friends they had his picture up on the refrigerator.

    Comment by San — November 30, 2013 @ 11:32 am

  137. @San: That is what I don’t get. In season one and two, we always saw Sam as the one bonding with people. Since season three onwards, it has changed and now Sam has become so isolated from everyone. And now Dean is the one who gets to bond with everyone while Sam is the loner. How is that fair? I don’t care about the story or the arc revolving around Sam. I repeat, I DON’T CARE THAT THE MYTH ARC REVOLVES AROUND SAM. I want POV for Sam. I want him to be treated as an actual character. Not some plot device. That is what is a huge part of my frustration. It’s so frustrating that so many people and the writers don’t understand this. Treat Sam as an actual character with emotions. Is that too much to ask for? I would rather Sam be the POV character and Dean be the myth arc if I’m being completely honest. Being the myth arc is nothing special.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 30, 2013 @ 12:36 pm

  138. According to Eric Kripke himself, Sam was supposed to be the audience surrogate. But it seems the writers turned around and gave that part to Dean instead and made Sam the plot device that he is in season three onwards. And that is annoying.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 30, 2013 @ 12:41 pm

  139. Yeah, it was really emphasized that Sam was the one who was connecting with people. Then it changed along the way so for example in 4.14 Sex and Violence we had a “love ‘em and leave ‘em” Sam but I think for a long time now it would be better to have some of the old Sam back. What is still so fundamentally different about Sam compared with Dean that Sam needs to cough and excuse himself because it would be even _more_ awkward to be in the presence of Dean and his new friend?

    Comment by San — November 30, 2013 @ 1:24 pm

  140. You guys with the “I want Sam’s POV” slay me really. You really don’t want his POV because if Rock and a Hard Place didn’t fill you up with Sams’ point of view then you really aren’t looking for POV from Sam. He TOLD you exactly what he was feeling and his POV about it. I think all of you who keep saying “I want Sams’ POV actually want him to be the Dean character and have him interact with other people and do what Dean does. Which in some instances he does. Sam does the disgusted look very well. And the po.’d look well too. As does Dean.

    But what makes the two characters different is the fact that one is the “Son of light” the other is the “Son of darkness”. Established way back in season 1 and that theme has been carried thru this season. Dean is light, Sam is darkness. Good and Bad so to speak. Dean is human, Sam is supernatural. Dean is heaven, Sam is hell. It sounds like to me you “I want Sams’ point of view” want him to take over Deans light. Which is not going to happen because that would go against canon. Not that canon hasn’t been trashed before.

    Comment by animal — November 30, 2013 @ 2:21 pm

  141. Also Sam does interact with other people. Again we saw that with Sheriff Mills. We saw it when he confided in Dorothy. We saw it when he talked to Meg. And with Crowley even. In all these examples we saw Sams’ POV- We saw him interact with these people. He had sex with Amelia (gawd I know-but he did). Maybe you guys need to reevaluate actually what you want. Which is actually for Sam to be Dean.

    Comment by animal — November 30, 2013 @ 2:27 pm

  142. Caitlin, I couldn’t agree more with you that the mytharc is nothing to be coveted. Having the mytharc hasn’t done Sam any favors, esp since he’s been neglected in the POV department. And POV is vital when one of your leads is doing crazy stuff. That’s why I like how Dean’s actions were explained this year. They did a good job with his POV.

    I think the sex scene in S&V was very OOC for Sam, and was written solely to throw off the audience. It was a red herring. Sam doesn’t normally have sex with random women. He only did so in that episode for storyline purposes. He was written to fit the plot, not to be consistent with his character. It’s not like we saw Sam sleeping with random women all season long!

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 30, 2013 @ 2:49 pm

  143. @Lisa: Exactly, Lisa. Sam’s POV is seriously lacking. All of his actions are to serve the plot, not to tell about his emotions.

    @animal: No, I don’t want Sam to take over Dean’s role. I’m asking for simple POV for Sam. Just because Sam is the “darkness” between the two brothers, doesn’t mean that he becomes an isolated character who doesn’t communicate with everyone. Did Anakin Skywalker stop communicating with other characters because he went Dark Side? The answer is no. Sam being “dark” and Dean being “light” has NOTHING to do with POV. That is an excuse to relegate Sam to a plot device who serves no purpose to the story other then for Dean to constantly emote. Why can’t Sam emote for a change?

    Comment by Caitlin — November 30, 2013 @ 3:00 pm

  144. BTW, the last thing I want is for Sam to become Mr. Righteous Man like Dean, all compassionate and “calling everyone family” like he’s the second coming of Jesus. No, I don’t want Sam to become that or have Dean’s role. I want simple emotional POV for Sam so that the audience can have a better understanding of his thoughts, his feelings. Sam should be getting that. HE’S THE VICTIM! He’s the one who had the action done to him. We should be getting insight into how he feels about that. But no, it was used as another opportunity for Dean to feel guilty and angst some more. What about Sam? Where are his thoughts and feelings on this? Cause I haven’t seen any time for Sam to express any emotion other than one to two minutes over a period of eight episodes.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 30, 2013 @ 3:08 pm

  145. Caitlin-Sam DID tell you what he is feeling in Rock and a Hard Place-if you didn’t see it -then POV is NOT what you really want. You will also get Sams’ POV when he finds out about Zeke. You can not get Sams’ POV about Zeke if he doesn’t know about Zeke. Thats going to come later. That’s why I find your dissatisfaction as well as others on this board so ridiculous. Sams’ POV has been there. Its just that its not his POV you are looking for. You are looking for Sam to be someone else. Yes Sam is the Plot device as well is Cas in the supernatural way. Dean is the HUMAN aspect of both plots. But in all three instances we have seen POV of what they are feeling within their plots in reguards to Cas and Sam. Dean does the same da*n thing -emoting -guilty-says I am sorry. Yea (sarcastic yea). None of the plots in prior seasons other than 3 and 4 have revolved around Dean. This season looks like it might have Dean, Sam and Cas plots. But as of right now -Deans decision is NOT a plot-its a decision he made in 1 episode and he has been emoting ever since. Big deal. I would have preferred him to accept what he did and not be all boo hooing about it. I am hoping he doesn’t apologize to Sam for giving Sam another chance at life. But I seriously doubt I will see that. We will see a huge blow up-Dean will say he is sorry-and I think it will be Dean who walks this time. 3 more days then we may find out-maybe not-maybe not until January. Hopefully Tuesday. peace.

    Comment by animal — November 30, 2013 @ 3:40 pm

  146. I agree with Caitlin in that the fallout would be more satisfying if we had been getting Sam’s point of view from the beginning, but we haven’t.

    Has Sam been missing time? Does he feel like there are gaps in his memory? It hasn’t been clear if Sam is noticing gaps in his memory or if he’s even missing chunks of time because the show hasn’t spent any time on that. Is he concerned with the number of times he’s been knocked unconscious? What are his thoughts about Dean calling out for the Zeke? We saw that Sam was curious about this but that’s where it ended. We didn’t see if he still had questions about that or if he bought Deans lie to him. What does he think about Dean being able to kill numerous demons and baddies each week with no help whatsoever?

    All of these questions should have been addressed before the big reveal. I think addressing these questions and giving Sam some point of view on how he feels would have made the actual reveal more powerful.

    And I don’t mean that the show would have to spend several minutes or inordinate amounts of time each episode exploring Sam’s feelings or his point of view. I just mean that the show could have put in little hints over the past nine episodes to show that Sam is concerned about his health and his well being? Again, that makes the actual reveal more powerful to me. I see no reason to save all of Sam’s feelings to the episode right before the reveal. We should have seen that Sam was concerned prior to this last episode?

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 30, 2013 @ 4:01 pm

  147. @Lisa: Thank you, Lisa. You seem to be the only one on here that “gets it”. You seem to be thinking along the same lines as me. Ever since season four, the writers have seemed to have neglected Sam’s feelings. It’s like the writers just said “Hey, Sam is going to be our plot device while Dean gets to express his emotions about everything that happens.” Sam comes off as a robot, a non-emotional character who does things or has things done to him but we don’t understand or get any insight as to why he does those things or how he feels about things being done to him. The writers had the perfect opportunity to let Sam express his feelings, they’ve had eight episodes for Sam to express himself on how he feels about himself before “THE BIG REVEAL”, but no, they chose to spend all eight episodes focusing on only Dean’s guilt. Yes, the writers can show Dean’s guilt, but why are they doing it at the expense of not showing Sam’s emotions regarding how he feels? Just because Dean did the action, doesn’t mean that they should neglect the victim (in this case, being Sam). Why can’t they show both Sam and Dean’s POV’s? Why just Dean’s? That’s not fair to Sam considering that he is the victim in all of this. They spend episodes upon episodes since season four showing Dean’s guilt, emotions and angst, but they can’t even have ONE episode of Sam showing or expressing emotion? Come on, writers. Please.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 30, 2013 @ 4:35 pm

  148. I would just like few episodes per season that gives Sam’s POV and insight to his actions and emotions. If the writers can do almost a whole season of Dean doing both action an expressing emotions, why can’t the extend the same courtesy to Sam? Last time I checked, the show is about TWO BROTHERS WHO ARE HUMAN WITH EMOTIONS. Sam is a homo sapien, he’s not a cyborg or a robot, yet he’s been treated as one since season four and I just don’t understand. I just. don’t get. it.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 30, 2013 @ 4:39 pm

  149. @137- So, you don’t care that EVERYTHING has always been about/revolved around Sam. You don’t care that he has always gotten ALL the major stories. You also want him to have everything else as well. Just as I suspected. Nevermind that him being the one that “everything happens” to has always given Sam center stage and Jared all the best acting opportunities.You really think Dean’s story. or lack of, has been anything special? He has NEVER had any important storylines! Or even when he started with one, it was always dropped and meant NOTHING in the end. ONLY Sam’s stories were ever inportant. But of course, that’s not enough, Sam must get EVERYTHING. What’s the point of Dean Winchester even being on this show then?
    I wouldn’t mind seeing Sam’s POV, but I’m sorry, it does indeed sound like you and some of the others here really just want Dean to go away so SPN can revolve 100% around Sam. And sorry Caitlin, but your statement to give Dean the mytharc, because to you it’s nothing special, just sounds like another little dig at him and shows once again your intense dislike for the character. Again, that is your prerogative, I just don’t get why you have to make it so obvious.
    I’m with you Animal. I don’t know why all the complaining here, because you and I both know that the second half will undoubtedly focus entirely on Sam, and his stories will be much better then the crap that has so far passed for Dean’s story. They always are. He’ll even get more than the second half, because out of 23 episodes we only had 8, which leaves 15 for Sam.
    Happy Hellatus folks.

    Comment by roxi — November 30, 2013 @ 4:46 pm

  150. Lisa and Caitlin-obviously both of you need words spent instead of Jared acting. I saw confusion on Sams’ face when he asked about Zeke. I saw conflict and confusion and anxiety when two of the monsters of the week said he wasn’t normal. I saw fascination and admiration when Dean lied to him about killing 3 demons. I saw in this last episode even without Sam saying it that he is upset, sad, confused, scared that something is wrong with him. I just don’t think you guys know how to read between the lines. Jared and Jensen for that matter show ALOT of words in their facial expressions without it being said. You guys need to watch more closely and stop looking for words. What you are looking for is in the ACTOR. That is what makes J2 so special and so good at what they do. They say so much with their faces without saying a word.

    Comment by animal — November 30, 2013 @ 4:50 pm

  151. And before someone chimes in that I am just trying to suppress Caitlin’s expression of her opinion, I’m really not. Other people here have expressed disappointment with what they feel is Sam’s lack of POV without having to get a dig in at Dean every single post. It would be lovely if she could express her opinion without always having to accompany it with some dig at Dean, like implying that he’s not complex or saying she wants him to have the storyline she feels is nothing.
    Me, I want BOTH Sam and Dean to have EQUAL importance and POV. I don’t want to take everything away from one to give to the other.
    Yes, it IS supposed to be about two brothers. To me and MANY others, it’s mainly been about only ONE Sam.
    Sorry, I really shouldn’t let this get to me like it is. I just feel that Dean isn’t getting a fair shake here at all. So it’s good that we are getting a break for a few weeks.

    Comment by roxi — November 30, 2013 @ 4:58 pm

  152. Yes, Caitlin, I do understand how you feel, and I know it is not about wanting the “Sam show” as some suggest. You just want to see Sam’s feelings explored more on the show. I know b/c I feel the same way. I want to see how he feels about the crazy things that happen to him. For instance, that whole thing w/Bobby in S6 should have been explored a bit more than it was. Bobby was uncomfortable around Sam, and then he wasn’t. There was no point to that mini-arc. I wanted more than “I ran” or “my world imploded” as an explanation for doing the unthinkable in S8. I wanted more than the occasional hand rub in S7.

    I would love for Sam to be explored more emotionally. I would have loved a TMWWBK-like episode for Sam in S4. I think that would have helped explain his actions a lot as I spent most of S4 disliking Sam. Haha!

    Sam, IMO, desperately needs some consistent POV on the show. We get it occasionally like in FB, Unforgiven, or this past episode, but it’s never quite enough for me. I guess I’m just greedy when it comes to Sam’s POV. It’s so very rarely explored that I want it as often as I can get it.

    I did like what we got at the end of RAAHP, but I think a gradual build up would have been better – dramatically. Over the course of first eight-nine episodes, we should have seen hints that Sam was worried and/or suspicious. To me, that’s better storytelling. The focus has solely been on Dean. I love Dean and love the POV he gets so I have no problem w/that. I just wish the writers would think to do the same for Sam and give him the same consideration.

    I am not sure why these writers find it so extremely difficult to write a balanced show with only TWO leads, but they do. Both Sam and Dean should be getting mytharc and POV. POV shouldn’t be restricted to one character while the other is restricted to mytharc.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 30, 2013 @ 5:02 pm

  153. No, Animal, I don’t want to guess at what Sam is thinking by interpreting Jared’s facial expressions.

    Let’s take this episode as an example. On another board, there was a long thread of speculation and discussion around Sam’s look to Jodi and what it meant. Jodi made a comment about Sam and Dean having each other, and Sam just looks at her.

    What was Sam thinking? How did he take her comment? That was the subject of the thread, and as you might have discussed, there was ZERO consensus. Some thought he was dismissing her words b/c he doesn’t care about Dean and doesn’t feel their relationship is important. Others thought he didn’t want to agree w/her b/c he’s suspicious of Dean. Others thought he agreed w/her. Others thought he was worried about himself and feels something is off. There were many opinions on this ONE look on Jared’s face, and no one can say w/any certainty that his/her interpretation was the correct one. Why? Because Sam didn’t SAY anything. If Sam had had some dialogue, there wouldn’t have been any confusion about what Sam thought or was feeling, etc.

    And maybe I wouldn’t mind interpreting a look on Sam’s face every once in a while if I didn’t have to ALWAYS do that. Is it really too much to ask that Sam being given actual dialogue where he expresses himself and just says what he feels? I don’t think that’s asking for too much.

    I don’t think I’ve ever seen a thread devoted to a look on Dean’s face. Why? Because Dean gets dialogue to straight out tell you what he’s thinking and what he’s feeling. The same should occur w/Sam.

    Now, that is how I feel. I understand you disagree, but there is no need to insult those who don’t share your views. We’re all different people and will feel differently about the show, the characters, the arcs, etc. You feel how you do. I feel the way I do. We can just agree to disagree.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 30, 2013 @ 5:17 pm

  154. Lisa, you and I are the only ones making any sense here. It seems the Dean fans, oh, I’m sorry, the Dean stans just want to take a dig not at Sam who’s a fictional character, but Sam FANS. You know, fans who are actually people and not a character. I’m sorry that my opinion is so looked down upon by Dean fans. I think I’ve said all I’ve needed to say in “Dean Stans’ Forum” a.k.a. Peace.

    Comment by Caitlin — November 30, 2013 @ 5:42 pm

  155. I didn’t insult you-sorry if you think I did. But I didn’t. I was stating how I felt about the POV argument not you and Caitlin personally.

    Reguarding the look to Jodi. Come on -Sam fans actually SPN fans in general always make more out of things that are there or not there than there actually was. Destiel is a good example of looks being interpreted one way and discussed for hours on end-when in reality there was nothing there. So its not exclusive to Sam and his looks. And it doesn’t mean anything. The writers leave things purposely open to interpretation by the audience for the sake of discussion and enjoyment. The writers purposely left that open for exactly what happened. Fans for hours on end discussed what the look meant -in reality it meant nothing more than imo ” Dean and I have been thru a lot-not sure where our relationship is at this point”. or in short-”whatever”.

    In fact Jared and Jensen were asked about a scene in the wizard of oz episode. The question was about “Did dean choose Charlie over Sam when told Zeke to heal Charlie”. Jared said there was a line that was edited out. The line was after the part where Zeke said “I can’t keep healing people It weakens me”. Dean had a line after that -that went something like -Well does it hurt my brother? Does it weaken him? That line was showing Deans concern over Sam but the editors of the show decided to pull the line so that it looked like Dean chose Charlie over Sam. That was a little long but do you get the idea??? The show is edited to cause fans to talk, discuss, assume-usually wrongly, about a character.

    Comment by animal — November 30, 2013 @ 5:46 pm

  156. @154- What the hell is a “stan”?
    And no, you are NOT the only person making sense. You keep right on and on getting putdowns in on Dean (yes she does Lisa) and yes he’s just a fictional character, but you know full well that if anybody keep getting digs in at Sam that way, YOU would be all in a tizzy! Dean stans? What do you call yourself, if not a Sam stan?
    If all you wanted was more Sam POV, you could have stated that without all the insinuations that Dean is a boring, weak, non complex character. You have a right to feel that way but you don’t need to express it every post.
    Caitlin has also ruined my enjoyment of the

    Comment by roxi — November 30, 2013 @ 5:52 pm

  157. Caitlin has also ruined my enjoyment of this board, and everybody seems to take her side on her obsessive Sam, Sam, Sam, Sam, Sam posts, and then her hypocritical “Dean stan” insult so great, I feel driven off of this site, so audios.
    Enjoy SPN folks.

    Comment by roxi — November 30, 2013 @ 5:58 pm

  158. Sams’ POV is usually left to interpretation and/or understated. Its there if one cares to look. Yea sometimes he doesn’t come out and say it ALL the time but he does eventually. Just like this season. We know now at the 8th episode what Sam has been thinking. I kinda thought it from the get go -but in the 8th episode it was spelled out to the audience. For 7 episodes the show wanted the audience to guess about what Sam knew and what he didn’t know. What he felt and what he didn’t felt. Now we do. And in the next episode we are going to get slapped in the face with what he feels about everything.

    Caitlin-I hope you are not calling ME a Deanstan or whatever you called it. Yea I favor Dean-But I am bibro -I am actually enjoying this season. I have no qualms about it at all. I got some Dean centric episodes, he got laid (I loved him with Susie, I want her to come back The kissing was OMG to me). Dean is circling the Mytharc kinda like he did in season 4. I like that. I like Sam -He seems to be Sam of the earlier years when he is not Zeke. Unlike some of you though when Jared pulls Zeke out I see the same acting as when Jared was Lucifer. But I like it so it doesn’t matter to me. Cas has been absent -I like that too. I know come January the big twist comes and Cas, Crowley and the angels will become a bigger part of the story so I might not be happy then. But for now I am.

    And Caitlin-I didn’t dismiss you for being a Samstan. That is kinda rude of you to dismiss Deanstans. We all have opinions. Its called discussion for a reason. Peace.

    Comment by animal — November 30, 2013 @ 6:02 pm

  159. @158- Ok, sorry, I am trying to extradite myself from this site, but I just want to answer you first Animal. No need to worry.She wasn’t referring to you. She was referring to ME. And I STILL don’t think what I did renders me a “Dean stan” whatever the hell that is. If that’s true than she certainly qualifies as a San stan. I certainly don’t think I’ve been half as obsessive about Dean as she is about Sam. I DO talk about other things besides Dean, and I DO call out the character when he is wrong or acts like a dick I merely got tired of her constant digs at Dean and insinuations that he was weak and uninteresting. Whether or not that was her opinion, I felt she didn’t have to get a dig at Dean in every post. She could have made her points about Sam without always doing that. I guess others didn’t see what to me were clearly little subtle putdowns of Dean but whatever. I do feel that Sam has gotten the lion’s share over the years, but I really don’t think that while I’ve stated that, I in any way insinuated some kind of insult towards him. I did get a little too worked up but come on, she was the one who kept going over the top first, every post SO obsessive in her worship of Sam and hatred of Dean that I could almost see her veins pop. Again, I guess I was the only one.
    And like you, although I do favor Dean, I consider myself bi-bro.
    But apparently, nobody is seeing my side and everybody is seeing Caitlin’s side in all this, and since it’s just a TV message board and I no longer feel welcome here. So anyway Animal, again it’s me they have the issue with, not you.
    Enjoy SPN.

    Comment by roxi — November 30, 2013 @ 6:23 pm

  160. I agree with Lisa1 and Caitlin that I would like to know more about what is going on with Sam –not long soapy, sappy Sam dialogue, but a few clear statements of his feelings. Don’t want Sam to be primarily about his feelings; if that happens, any brotherly action in the series would ground to a halt. Now, at least, one of the leads is doing or experiencing something that is interesting beyond getting his feelings hurt. Sam determines the brothers’ plot by what is happening to him or what he is doing. His problems or screw-ups ( not looking for Dean, soullessness, devil or angel possession) are essentially the active ingredient in the brother’s relationship. That requires little dialogue from Sam. Dean’s role is to react and express his feelings of hurt, guilt, betrayal, concern, or frustration. And Dean plays the same role with Castiel basically reacting to Castiel’s actions or state of being. Dean has become little more than the central character in a soap, who in most soaps is female–a long suffering female figure who shares her feelings about the lives of her loved-ones to whom she remains loyal despite their screw-ups and lack of appreciation for her love and guidance. Sam’s feelings are not important; his role is to give Dean something to worry about so Dean can express his emotional suffering.
    I also agree with animal. Jared does a wonderful job of expressing his feelings with his facial expressions–he uses them well. Jared’s character is still determined by what challenge he is facing or what he is doing–not by what he is saying about his feelings.
    It is interesting that Dean fans call for more action for him; Sam fans want more feelings for him ;but, that would call for the writers to break from the easily written stereotype roles for the leads. Perhaps in a last season they might take some chances. Maybe next year.

    Comment by CaseyT — November 30, 2013 @ 7:51 pm

  161. I also agree with the issue of us not being shown enough of Sam’s POV. that in no way means we want the show to be all about Sam, roxi. I really love both the brothers, and would love for Dean to be given more story, but but this issue stands.

    We are given a full understanding of Deans head space at all times. We KNOW why he is doing what he is doing, what he’s feeling, why he’s saying what he is. 90% of the time anyway. But that is NOT the case with Sam. We very often do not know WHY he’s doing and saying what he is because we’re not given his perspective, his headspace, and are left guessing as to what it must be. (my take on that expression, Lisa, is that he was just worried about Dean,and Jodi’s remark just reminded him of how valuable their relationship is. *shrugs* If they’re not gonna tell us, might as well just make it what we want)

    We do not want to take anything away from Dean when we say that. It’s just about balance and a more-or-less equal sort of story, mytharc, emotional whatever, POVs division between the boys.

    I also do not understand why the writers find ot so hard to balance this with the two leads. it really cannot be that hard.

    Comment by Tammy — November 30, 2013 @ 8:46 pm

  162. Lisa and Caitlin, it would be nice if you engaged with other posters and discuss different topics. I have a very interesting theory above that Jesse might be a character that could further the plot! How about discussing that topic for a little bit? Instead you generally tend to ignore topics that do not pertain to Sam.

    I am new to this site and so have not yet established who are Sam or Dean fans. It is now obvious you two are, and back each other up even in the face of good argument. Animal had a VERY good point to make about Sam’s POV which encouraged me to reconsider (bless you for this animal as I adore Sam and sorely need to hear good sense sometimes thank you). I feel this is what good debate SHOULD do, yet you two steadfastly hold to your opinions, without acknowledging any other possible way of seeing it, even when you are faced with evidence that you are upsetting other posters. This is NOT debate, which is a pity because you both comment on a daily basis.

    This happened on another site, which is notoriously Samcentric, and it is in the process of dying. It used to have 100′s of comments every week about many different topics. It is now down to 6 or 7 posters, and every single poster is a Sam fan. All discussion now leans towards Sam and even when there are good plot developments, or other actors have performed well, it is barely mentioned. This is obsequious BORING!

    Can I venture to you that you need posters like Roxi because she also has important things to say, even though you might disagree. She is very heated, I grant you that, but please see yourselves in that too. Please stop hammering home the idea that the Sam character is sorely misrepresented constantly, it really is the death knell for a site! (and I implore all posters in this). Posters who are constantly disagreed with, or are confronted with repetitive negative argument will find other sites, and in the end we all loose, including this site.

    May I encourage you to be considerate of others opinions and show compassion when others are getting heated. Acknowledging their POV shows good EQ and establishes rapport, even in the face of differing views.

    Roxi if you have read this, please don’t disappear, it makes the site poorer for it, and certainly lessens my enjoyment of any SPN discussion.

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 30, 2013 @ 9:04 pm

  163. lose (we need an edit button )

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 30, 2013 @ 9:06 pm

  164. @tokoloshi. I don’t think you read what a lot of us are trying to say actually. I think there are many discussions about different aspects of SPN that Lisa, and others who are discussing this issue about Sam’s POV not being given to us enough, take part in.

    There are some posters who get heated to the point of perhaps sounding rude or insulting. But I think most of us here try to keep things pleasant and are willing to listen to other opinions. I’m not sure how you came to the conclusion that you did, and it sounded a little, if I may say so, self-righteous.

    Roxi s a valuable contributor here, and it will be v distressing if she leaves., I really hope that was just a heated post, and didn’t mean she really would. Right, roxi? Lisa, and the others who’re discussing this issue (Sam POV), we often have things roxi and us agree on, and things we might not agree on. But in no way does that mean we don’t want to hear another point of view.

    Just my thoughts.

    Comment by Tammy — November 30, 2013 @ 9:34 pm

  165. Tokoloshi – I discuss the topics that interest me.

    I never requested that anyone leave the site so I’m not sure how I am to blame for anyone leaving. Everyone is free to state his/her opinion and skip the posts of those they find repetitive and/or boring.

    I believe I post in a very respectful manner to everyone. I don’t feel I’ve been rude to anyone. I resent being called inconsiderate and without compassion simply b/c shared an opinion on a topic raised in this discussion. Before Sam’s POV was brought up, we were discussing what was going to happen w/the whole “Dean in a dark place” and “Sam being suicidal thing.”

    I do find it strange that you’ve labeled me as inconsiderate and mean simply b/c I shared my opinion on a topic but such is the way of the Internet.


    Roxi – yes I’ve noticed Caitlin’s subtle bashing of Dean, but what is the point in arguing w/her about it? She, clearly, feels very strongly about it and even admitted that the imbalanced writing was turning her against Dean somewhat and making her resent him a bit.

    Anyway, that was my earlier point to you. As I said, I wasn’t trying to flame you, but I just think you should skip certain posters if you know they are going to upset you. Posting should be fun. I know I’ve said this many times, but I quit posting on the IMDb boards b/c the Sam/Jared bashing became relentless. It got to the point where there was no point in “debating” w/them anymore; their hatred for Sam/Jared was too strong.

    So, I left b/c it was no longer fun to post there for me. I think most people here love BOTH brothers. I know I do.

    But that is my philosophy. YMMV. I honestly have no desire to argue/fight w/anyone about this show other than a good-natured debate about certain topics like POV, plot, etc. It’s all in good fun to me.


    By the way, a “stan” is an obsessed, crazed fan. It is based on the Enimen song, “Stan,” which was about a fan who was obsessed Enimem.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 30, 2013 @ 9:53 pm

  166. Well then what do you think about the season 5? Jesse idea? I stated a few posts back that he was meant to be the antichrist that destroys the host of hell. Isn’t he still on earth hiding out somewhere?

    I am hoping that there are other alternatives to the angel solution than Sam being possessed by Zeke or Dean going dark.

    No inclination to self-righteous :) Age and wisdom intervened ;)

    Comment by tokoloshi — November 30, 2013 @ 9:54 pm

  167. Thank you, Tammy :-)

    I actually strive very hard to be positive and considerate in my posting so I was a little taken aback by Tokoloshi’s comments.

    I didn’t think I had been rude or inconsiderate to anyone.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 30, 2013 @ 9:56 pm

  168. Tokoloshi – if that question was for me, I hated S5. There were probably 10 episodes I actually enjoyed . . . maybe less.

    I saw the Jesse episode the night it aired and have never watched it again. I don’t recall much about it other than him leaving or going to the beach.

    I don’t think Jesse will ever play a role in this show again. I don’t have much to contribute to a discussion about Jesse but maybe others will have thoughts.

    Comment by Lisa1 — November 30, 2013 @ 10:00 pm

  169. I’m just dipping a toe in here to say that I’m among those who believe Sam’s POV is very well represented this season. He doesn’t know about Zeke, so he doesn’t have a POV on that, obviously. But in every episode we’ve been told and shown where he is in his headspace. In the first episode, which was very Sam-POV-centric, we learned that he wanted to die; that he thought he’d given enough and had earned some peace. In episode 2, with his memory of that experience erased, he told us that he felt happier than he’s ever been, with friends and family around. Later, in the Dorothy episode, we saw that, while he initially didn’t see the MOL lair as a home, he’s gradually come to see it that way. In “Bad Boys,” we could see his wheels turning all episode long as he processed what his brother had experienced at Sonny’s farm and what it meant for him and for their relationship. More recently, we’ve seen his confusion about what’s wrong with him and his doubts about Dean’s various prevarications. That last scene in “Rock and a Hard Place” was particularly illuminative, as he was clearly distressed about what was wrong with him, and thought maybe he was just defective and doomed to be that way.

    We’ve also seen a lot of Dean’s POV, but that’s largely been about how guilty he’s feeling about the Zeke situation. And very little of that has been actual dialogue; it’s been shown to us almost exclusively through Jensen’s eloquent facial expressions.

    I know it’s a common complaint in this fandom that Sam gets all the mytharc and Dean gets all the emotional POV. But this season, I think, has been more balanced. Dean’s decision to let Zeke inhabit Sam is critical to the mytharc, and I think will have profound consequences for both brothers. Meanwhile, I think we’ve gotten a lot of information about what Sam is thinking and feeling, and the contrast with what Dean knows and isn’t telling is creating some fine dramatic tension. I’m just hoping the second half of the season doesn’t revert to the all-about-Sam mytharc/Dean-reacts-and-worries pattern that has characterized most prior seasons.

    Comment by luluanne — November 30, 2013 @ 10:04 pm

  170. Why hasn’t the site master put the promo for the midseason finale up yet? It’s been out for almost a week now.

    I hope Ezekiel doesn’t kill Kevin or something :(

    Comment by Jean-Luc Picard — November 30, 2013 @ 10:08 pm

  171. Oh I’m terribly worried about Kevin. But I think that’s what’s going to happen. I have this theory that the writers are trying to get Dean to break from his excessive dependency on Sam this season, and to do that they need to make Dean pay a heavy price for being All About Sam. First they have him tell Kevin he’s family, then they kill him as a direct result of Dean putting Sam before all else. Ack!!!

    Comment by Luluanne — November 30, 2013 @ 10:39 pm

  172. Uh, I don’t mean to rub anyone’s feathers the wrong way, but to Lisa1, I wouldn’t call Caitlyn’s comments about Dean subtle. It’s more like bashing someone over their head with a hammer over and over again! I get why roxi gets exasperated with her blatant digs at Dean in most of her comments. I’ve gotten to a point I want to skip her posts because of it. I’d do the same if someone were bashing Sam the same way. It gets old really fast.

    Comment by Twinster — November 30, 2013 @ 11:25 pm

  173. Talking of promos, shouldn’t the longer one (sneak peek?) for Holy Terror be out by now?

    The whole Sam-Ezekiel situation is making me nervous as hell. Don’t know where they’re going to go with it, and how they’re going to fix it.

    Comment by Tammy — November 30, 2013 @ 11:38 pm

  174. I have enjoyed reading comments from Lisa1 and roxi for quite some time now. So I hope they both keep posting here.

    I know its distressing when posters pick on your favorite so it helps to develop a thick skin and good scanning skills so you can skip over stuff. Don’t let one poster spoil your fun. Last year, some on this very site were ragging hard on Sam and on the “delusional idiots” (actual quote) who were trying to find some rational reason for Sam not looking for Dean. And what Cas fans have to put up with from some other types of fans-shudder. So it happens to everyone and it’s good to put it into perspective. We can’t change anyone and as someone mentioned, if we shut down all negative discussion about this or that character we have a stagnant boring place. Mostly, this place has good discussion among considerate posters.

    I would like to see more of a balance in pov. Now the story they are telling now makes sense from Dean’s pov but unfortunately it only highlights the weakness in writing a pov for Sam in last year’s “didn’t look for Dean” story. We know Dean’s feelings and motives and suffer along with him. For Sam, we were left scratching our heads and feeling unsettled about his entire character. But the writers are following a formula that they seem to like. It would be nice if they could shake it up a little.

    Comment by jace — December 1, 2013 @ 6:37 am

  175. What worries me is that Zeke most likely has access to all of Sam’s memories and his innermost thoughts. In a way, he knows Sam better than Dean does, maybe even better that Sam does himself. I wonder if it’ll come back and haunt the boys.

    Comment by San — December 1, 2013 @ 8:16 am

  176. I just don’t see it ending in any good (which, in Supernatural terms means less than devastating) way. Zeke holds ALL the cards. Is there any way to expel an angel from the outside? Like exorcising a demon? I don’t remember anything.

    And then there’s the mid season break to survive, which I’m not sure I will. *sigh* I really need to somehow step back and be less emotionally involved.

    Comment by Tammy — December 1, 2013 @ 10:22 am

  177. I agree with those saying there is not enough Sam POV. When you compare to Dean POV, there is quite a difference. We don’t have to read Dean’s facial expression to know what he is thinking. If that’s enough, why not stop giving Dean dialogue and just let Jensen act with his face?

    This is my opinion. You don’t have to agree with me.

    Comment by very bored Sam fan — December 1, 2013 @ 3:45 pm

  178. @177-They don’t give Jensen every little feeling, mood, ect to say. Jensen does just do facial expressions. When facial expressions is all there needs to be done. In Sams’ case he is the secretive character. He is supposed to be the unknowable character (well up until he spills his feelings-which is what we got in the last episode). He is the one the supernatural happens to which is not supposed to be in your face. How boring would it be if we knew from the get go the Sam was absolutely PO’d at Dean for letting Zeke take over. Why watch the episodes up to the reveal then? You already know the climax so why bother with the in between or the build up??? Its called STORY TELLING. Who would want to read a book if you already know what each characters end result is. Once again-Dean is the human side. You are supposed to feel his human struggle. Therefore they let you know how he is feeling. Sam is the supernatural, the plot, the mytharc, the nucleus of the story -you CAN NOT let the glue spill before you get thru the build up. That is poor story telling. And all you would have is the beginning and the end. Boring.

    Comment by animal — December 1, 2013 @ 5:21 pm

  179. This whole discussion has now made me wish Jensen would ask for a time off just to fuck with the writers and watch them scramble to make a Sam centric episode. :D They would probably just use Cas, though, or made it something like Born Under A Bad Sign (what is wrong with Sam, Dean tries to help). I can’t see them making an episode that would seriously explore Sam’s headspace (beyond Zeke as in just a regular episode).

    Comment by San — December 2, 2013 @ 1:46 am

  180. I have to disagree with CaseyT, even though Dean doesn’t have much of a storyline (the emo, all about Sam…again…for the umpteenth time isn’t a storyline about Dean), Jensen has an incredibly difficult acting challenge. Jensen has had to convey all of Dean’s feelings,especially the conflicting feelings, without any kind of obvious and/or overt actions or reactions. Jensen has given an amazingly subtle and nuanced performance with his facial expressions, body language and delivery/tone. He doesn’t have the flashy storyline (when does he ever, though?), do I wish he did for once? Hell yes. But, I see what Jensen is doing this season and it amazes me and I give him full credit.

    Comment by Bree — December 2, 2013 @ 8:43 am

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