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“The Purge” Discussion

Supernatural is taking the next two weeks off due to the Olympics, so post your thoughts on tonight’s new episode (featuring Sam as a fitness instructor). Click HERE for my full recap or keep reading for my quick thoughts.

OK, this wasn’t the most exciting or interesting episode. I didn’t really care that much about the “fish taco” Peruvian fat-sucking monster case. I did, however, enjoy Sam’s outfit and the idea of salted caramel pudding. I’d get roofied for that.

 

The most interesting part of this episode was the end, when Sam and Dean continued their fight from this week. But this week, it seemed to be very heavily weighted in Sam’s favor.

 

He called out Dean for having a hero complex and for the fact that Dean isn’t saving Sam and sacrificing himself for Sam’s sake, it’s so Dean doesn’t have to be alone. It sucks when the brothers fight, but I’m on Sam’s side. He was completely willing to close the Gates of Hell and die in the process, but Dean didn’t let him. It sounds weird to say that loving your brother is selfish, but it kind of is.

 

The real crushing blow was Sam’s claim that, if the roles were reversed, he wouldn’t have done the same thing. Again, it’s harsh but true. We saw him after Dean vanished into Purgatory, and he was more-than-fine with leaving it all behind and settling down with Amelia. And when Dean went to Hell did Sam save him? No, Cas did and Sam was busy drinking Ruby’s demon blood.

 

I’m not sure how the brothers will resolve this, but I’m excited to see where the writers are going with this. I assume they have some kind of plan to get past this ugliness.

News posted on February 4, 2014 Comments (519)

519 Comments »

  1. After that crappy conversation, I don’t care if the show NEVER returns. I’m just done w/this show and Carver’s annihilation of the brotherhood.

    Every time Sam speaks, I feel like I’m being stabbed in the heart. Am I supposed to be rooting for them to be together? Why are they together? And despite all that confusion last week, it appears my friend was right. Sam doesn’t want to be brothers w/Dean. If that’s the case, then why doesn’t he just go away and leave Dean to people who want to be around him.

    I cannot stand Carver or his team of writers. They have ruined this show, IMO.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 4, 2014 @ 7:05 pm

  2. Someone needs to buy Dean a copy of “He’s Just Not That Into You”, clearly. No, Dean, we proved last year that Sam is not willing to go as far as you are to save his brother. I’m not sure what else he has to do to prove to you that he doesn’t love you the way you love him. He’s said family doesn’t mean the same, he didn’t look for you, he told you he doesn’t want to be your brother, and now he’s told you he wouldn’t save you from dying by extraordinary measures any longer, as he would have around S3. Figure it out–Sam’s just not that into you.

    Also, Sam, are you really looking at the person who sold their soul and went to hell that he’s only willing to sacrifice when it doesn’t hurt him? Because that’s some selective memory you have there. You know what, I can’t blame Sam for being mad that these writers retconned Dean’s guilt for Kevin and Gadreel from two episodes ago from horrible self-loathing to “It was right, because it saved you.” I’m annoyed by it, too. Maybe that’s what it is–I’m not sure why we needed this conversation. Nothing new happened. We know Sam wanted to die because he was convinced it was the only way to prevent anyone else from dying (because I guess Kevin would have never been in danger again and that angels wouldn’t have possessed others and caused deaths without Sam around). We know Dean swings between being self-loathing and being self-righteous about his choices as the writing dictates. We know Sam doesn’t feel the same about Dean as Dean does about him. Nothing was accomplished this episode in terms of the boys’ storyline, so I’m not sure why we needed to rehash.

    Either move on or give me straight up MOTW/mytharc storylines with partner brothers, show. Xeroxing angst isn’t entertaining to me anymore.

    Comment by huh — February 4, 2014 @ 7:06 pm

  3. I thought it was me not understanding what Sam was talking about every time the “brother discussion” started up, but then it occurred to me. It’s not ME who’s confused, it’s the writers!

    Sam wouldn’t do the same for Dean? REALLY? Sam Winchester, who turned over every stone in five states until he found a faith healer to cure Dean’s heart. Sam who slashed and shot his way through a dozen crossroads demons trying to break Dean’s deal. Sam who turned himself into a demon blood junkie to get revenge on Lilith for what she did to Dean.

    This is the same logic that we all detested in Season 8 (why he didn’t look for Dean). This is the same BS all over again. We rejected it last season, so Carver rolls it out again this season in a different package.

    At this point, I’d rather they stop talking about their feelings altogether, and just be hunters/brothers who “don’t do chick flick moments” again. We’d all be happier, I think.

    Comment by G-dawg — February 4, 2014 @ 7:09 pm

  4. Oh, and Sam’s logic about “what if some hunter had found me when Gadreel was possessing me?” Um, probably nothing good for the hunter, Sam. Gadreel was an ANGEL.

    Since when have angels become so easily hunted on this show? Last I checked, it’s only pure luck that has allowed the boys to ever kill angels.

    Comment by G-dawg — February 4, 2014 @ 7:12 pm

  5. True, G-dawg–I’m not sure how Gadreel was comparable in this situation. Maybe a call-back to the scene in 5.3, when the hunters did in fact come after Sam, would have been a better comparison? But then I suppose that wouldn’t have put Sam absolutely on the high ground in the conversation, so.

    As far as I knew, Sam and Dean were the only angels who even seemed aware of angels, let alone being able to kill one. It’s not like Sam and Dean put out some hunter APB on angels to the community at large, at least as far as we could tell. How would any other hunter get the weapon that could kill an angel?

    I fear Sheri was right–after the introduction of the mytharc idea of the Mark of Cain for Dean, we’ve had two stand-alones, one mention, and a preview that includes Snooki. That doesn’t buoy me with confidence about show actually doing anything with the Winchesters but giving us The Winchesters of Our Lives, with a rushed resolution of mytharc in the last two episodes. I don’t know where this season is going, and I am not sure that the PTB know either. That’s not a good thing.

    Comment by huh — February 4, 2014 @ 7:18 pm

  6. I liked the episode. For the non-mytharc episodes, I like having Sam and Dean essentially having their moment at the beginning of an episode, do the case, have a brother moment at the end. The cafeteria scene was pretty funny.

    I also liked that Sam and Dean had a more extended, rational discussion about their thoughts. I still think Sam’s are essentially the same as he said last week, but he stated them a little clearer. Of course, I thought it was fairly clear already, so others may still disagree. For example, I realize he’s still blaming Dean for the decision not to finish the trials at the church, but this week it didn’t seem as hypocritical to me. It seemed more like he’s trying to make a point (nothing good really happened by you tricking me into getting possessed and saving me) and the church/trials part of it is just getting thrown in as part of the overall narrative. Or you have a list of examples you want to use to state your case, and you realize one isn’t the best, but you use it anyway. That was my view on it at least.

    That said, (and my argument to those mad at Sam/writers) even though I get his point and don’t even necessarily disagree with his logic, I don’t think he can say he wouldn’t have done the same. The closest example I can recall would be not looking for Dean in Purgatory, but thinking your brother is dead and trying to make peace with it is nowhere close to the same as watching your brother die in front of you when you know you have a sky full of angels falling all around you who could help. Sam very much strikes me as someone who would say something to make a point and win an argument that isn’t necessarily true. Ex: above paragraph. He was going to be a lawyer.

    I also want to hug Dean.

    Comment by Sarah — February 4, 2014 @ 7:27 pm

  7. @2 – Sam said Dean’s willing to sacrifice when he’s not the one left behind. That’s completely accurate and was something Sam said back then. Dean selling his soul is a perfect example of why Sam wants the deal making to stop. That was the first step in Armegeddon.

    Comment by Sarah — February 4, 2014 @ 7:32 pm

  8. G-Dawg, you got it right. The writers have no clue what they want to write, which is why everything is so muddled. Carver has zero interest in this show, which is why it’s basically crap.

    Unlike you guys, I have no desire to see the brothers together anymore. If Sam doesn’t want to be around Dean, I really wish Dean would pack his crap and leave. They just need to separate and end the show. Their brotherhood and past sacrifices have all be trashed and are now seen as negatives.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 4, 2014 @ 7:34 pm

  9. I see what you’re saying, Sarah, but honestly? Thinking that Sam didn’t mean he wouldn’t try to save his brother, but said it in order to win an argument doesn’t make him look better to me. In fact, it kind of makes him look worse–someone who’s willing to throw what he knows are devastating emotional blows with words he doesn’t mean just to win a fight is no one I want to be around.

    Comment by huh — February 4, 2014 @ 7:39 pm

  10. I’m sorry, Sarah, but I have to disagree. Sam’s words in the episode were “You are certainly willing to do the sacrificing–as long as you are not the one being hurt.” I went back and watched again–that’s verbatim. If Sam had said what you said, I would have agreed. But that’s not what he said. He said Dean sacrifices as long as it doesn’t hurt him, which we have seen is not true. So again, that’s Sam throwing bombs that he knows aren’t true to win an argument. Again, nothing praiseworthy in that to me.

    Lisa1–I’m afraid I have to agree with you. At this point, I don’t know why Sam is there at all. Why did he get back in the car? I don’t know why Dean doesn’t just drive away–there’s nothing in this brotherhood for him anymore.

    Comment by huh — February 4, 2014 @ 7:43 pm

  11. I thought the episode was pretty pedestrian. I liked that they opened with a call-back to the last conversation and I am glad they made Sam’s meaning perfectly clear.

    The case wasn’t bad; had some gore, and I actually liked Sheriff Fargo (whatever her name was). The humor parts were not funny, and usually I find JA can sell the worst script written, but I thought both he and JP didn’t do a good job this week. It felt like JP was phoning it in and JA was off his game in every respect, IMO.

    Now, for the good part. FU Sam. What a self-righteous dick. These writers actually wrote Sam saying Dean only does stuff when it benefits him and, of course, my mind goes straight to him romping in the sheets with Amelia.

    So my thoughts are that the writers are actually going with Dean being needy and Sam thinking he has figured it all out — that everything the brothers have experienced is because they love each other and that love has caused terrible damage to the world. Nice writers. Trash the hunting world, trash the fact that family can help humans through the worst life can throw at them. And then there is the predictability that Dean thinking Sam doesn’t love him as much as he loves Sam will drive Dean to do reckless things (I still don’t think Dean is going to go really dark), and Sam will rush in to save him in 9.23. Dean will think Sam loves him after all and Sam will be all proud of himself and filled with self-worth.

    Dear God! What has happened to the Supernatural show I used to like.

    P.S. I don’t want to hug Dean. I want to kick him in the ass and tell him to dump Sam and don’t look back. He is looking too needy to me right now.

    Comment by Sheri — February 4, 2014 @ 7:51 pm

  12. That conversation definitely left me wanting Dean to say, “You know what, Sam? I did what I felt I had to do. I’m sorry it turned out wrong, but that’s me. I see you don’t like that so why don’t you go your way, and I’ll go mine.”

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 4, 2014 @ 7:59 pm

  13. So . . . do you think the episode was intended to have fans wishing the Winchesters would just go their separate ways? And if not, what are they going for? Seriously, at this point I’d love to know if they’re expecting fans to be happy. After last week, Adam Glass got pissy on twitter because people didn’t like his ending scene. Do you think anyone saw that and thought, “Well, crap, then 9.13′s ending may be a problem”? I mean, seriously, what audience reaction are they going for with this?

    Comment by huh — February 4, 2014 @ 8:08 pm

  14. Sam said that if the circumstances were exactly the same, he would not save Dean, which I took it to mean that if Dean had excepted his death, Sam would respect that. I don’t think this episode was bad, I think it seemed confused and tired because the characters are confused and tired. And I think Sam is depressed, because he keeps mentioning that he should be dead. I’m worried the show is setting up for a Winchester death for real.

    Comment by Lulu — February 4, 2014 @ 8:11 pm

  15. Sam didn’t say he would never save Dean. He said in the exact same situation , he wouldn’t. So, if Dean was dying, Sam wouldn’t have let him be saved by tricking him into being possessed. Sam feels just as much guilt over Kevin as Dean and knows that if Dean would just have let him die, things wouldn’t have happened. I knew that so many would be beating their chests over how “mean” Sam is to Dean, but he really isn’t. He just is trying to make Dean understand that he doesn’t need to be a hero all the time.

    Comment by Sharyn — February 4, 2014 @ 8:14 pm

  16. ouch, ouch, ouch.

    but I am wondering now who will actually be the one coming to a realization at the other end of all this.

    Also, staying out of all the comment sections until the next episode. Not interested in the millionth sam vs dean war. cheers all.

    Comment by inky — February 4, 2014 @ 8:14 pm

  17. At this point, the only way I want this season to end is for Sam to be death’s door and for Dean to shrug his shoulders and walk away. He could throw in the line, “You know, Sam, you were right,” and I would find that funnier than anything I heard tonight.

    Comment by Sheri — February 4, 2014 @ 8:15 pm

  18. I didn’t find tonight’s episode to be one of their better ones.

    I tend to agree with Sam that Dean has saved him because Dean doesn’t want to be alone. It could also be because of his father always telling him since he was four till Sam left for college to always look after Sam (i.e. keep him safe).

    I also believe that the writers will have Sam and Dean be brothers again, and it will be interesting to see how they do that.

    Comment by Valerie — February 4, 2014 @ 8:16 pm

  19. Sam hates Dean. Dean is a pain in the arse in Sam’s eyes. Dean is selfish. Again Sam with the blaming Dean for everything. And dammit Dean takes it yet again. I knew Sam wouldn’t go out of his way to save Dean but man was he brutal tonight. wow!! The look on Dean’s face hmmmmmm. How does one work with someone who basically just told you-I will let you die. I won’t try to save you. Try telling that to a police officer who works with a partner or the military. All they do is rely on their partners. So in reality Sam doesn’t want to be Deans work partner either Sam has no clue on what family or partnership is. Wow just Wow!!!! WTF is Carver doing??? I am sorta po’d at J2 as well. They are protective of their characters yet they have let Carver tear down the very base, the very fabric of what made this show. ?? Protective really??? Don’t think so.

    As for the motw story- I liked it-It had some gore which I liked. Again with the good monster -bs. But I still liked the episode. And yea the brother situation is totally destroyed but -well thats growing up. Family sucks- Brother who would die for you sucks more. Sounds typical Hollywood to me. So lets move on and have Dean the hunter show and Sam the loaner show. Have them interconnect every once in awhile. Yea!!!

    Comment by animal — February 4, 2014 @ 8:17 pm

  20. huh – well, then that changes it some. I misheard him. And I agree, saying whatever you think is necessary isn’t nice at all. But I do still see Sam as someone who would do it. Example: telling the asthma kid in Death takes a Holiday Tessa would leave him alone after telling Dean he’d say whatever he had to.

    I’m hoping it comes down to, though, Sam being faced with the decision to save Dean or not, and he finds he can’t just let go either. Him being adamant that letting your brother die is the right thing to do seems like a natural and not much of a stretch set up as anything else. I don’t mind (I rather like it) if they fight, but saying I’m cool with you dying is a bit much for me.

    Comment by Sarah — February 4, 2014 @ 8:18 pm

  21. I thought the pudding thing was funny. It reminded me of Sam, Interrupted.

    Comment by Lulu — February 4, 2014 @ 8:19 pm

  22. @Sharyn–I think it would have worked better if Sam had said Dean didn’t need to be a hero all the time. But he didn’t–he dismissed Dean’s heroic sacrifices, because Dean only sacrifices when it doesn’t hurt him. He doesn’t consider Dean saving him to be heroic–it’s selfish. And you know what, some part of Dean saving Sam is selfish, just like Sam trying to make a deal in S4 or Sam dying in order to assuage his own guilt from Kevin was selfish in some ways. But in other ways, it came from a place of love and good intentions. Sam, more than anyone, should understand that good intentions and love can sometimes lead to terrible things without erasing those good intentions. You’d think.

    Comment by huh — February 4, 2014 @ 8:22 pm

  23. Huh – I have no idea. I don’t know what the writers are going for, but I know these stilted explanations from Sam aren’t doing anything for their cause.

    Maybe it’s just me, but it feels like the writers have Sam skirting around his issue w/Dean. Over on other forums, people are giving their interpretations of what he meant or how he wants the relationship to be, but I note that Sam is NOT saying those things. It’s not plain and clear.

    I wonder if they are not writing clear dialogue for him b/c they’re saving it for some big bro conversation in the finale. If that’s the case, I wish they would just stop writing for Sam until that final conversation b/c their attempts are all dismal failures in the eyes of this bi-bro fan.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 4, 2014 @ 8:23 pm

  24. I really think Sam is seriously depressed and taking it out on Dean a little bit, distancing himself.

    Comment by Lulu — February 4, 2014 @ 8:23 pm

  25. Sarah–I agree that this is the way Sam fights, and I think it can be read as a very human character flaw. Dean holds grudges, and Sam a lot of the time goes for his opponents’ vulnerabilities in order to win a fight. That’s fair to me.

    Maybe show is setting Sam up to go back on his word and be willing to do anything to save Dean as a progression of his arc in reconciling his issues with Dean. It might be a good thing. But with Carver touting the new “maturity” of Sam not looking last year, I’m not sure if that’s going to be the case. I’m not sure where they’re going at the moment. I hope this is the low point, though.

    Comment by huh — February 4, 2014 @ 8:28 pm

  26. “Maybe show is setting Sam up to go back on his word and be willing to do anything to save Dean as a progression of his arc in reconciling his issues with Dean.”

    I doubt it. Carver seems determined to break them of the desire/need to save each other. He’s broken Sam. Dean is next up to be broken.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 4, 2014 @ 8:31 pm

  27. @ Sharyn #15: I will have to rewatch the scene, but I believe Dean said he saved Sam “tonight” and back at the church and it was the right thing to do. I know the “tonight” was in the conversation, so Sam saying he would not save Dean really doesn’t mean only with extreme measures. It means Sam does not have Dean’s back. It means Sam thinks family is the root of all evil. It means Sam — and let me say this loudly — Sam actually CALLS DEAN SELFISH. I think Sam is brain damaged.

    Now, I could be wrong about that and will correct myself later…but I just cannot rewatch this tripe tonight.

    Comment by Sheri — February 4, 2014 @ 8:35 pm

  28. The tension between Sam and Dean doesn’t bother me. I figure Carver and his writers have just been laying the groundwork for the Cain/Abel plot line.

    Later in the season, when the jawbone of an ass hooks up with the devil’s mark, Dean will probably become not only murderous, but Cain-like. To convince the audience that he COULD be driven to kill his own brother, the writers have to churn up deep-seated resentment, even hatred, in Dean. And what could make Dean angrier at his brother than believing Sam doesn’t really care about him and never has?

    For his part, Sam is doing his level best to push Dean away. I can’t help but wonder if Sam believes he’s going to die–whether because he isn’t completely cured or, more likely, because he’s determined to sacrifice his life in attempting to close the gates of hell. He doesn’t want Dean to save him or to miss or mourn him. He prefers that his brother hate him.

    A little off topic, but I’m confused about something. As I remember, Sam or some other character said he and the veterinarian had been together for three months. But Dean was in purgatory for a year. What was Sam doing for the other nine months? And why were all those Leviathans dropping into purgatory if Sam wasn’t offing them? In fact, who removed the Leviathans from earth if it wasn’t Sam? Anyone have answers? Thanks!

    Comment by JT — February 4, 2014 @ 8:36 pm

  29. One more thing….MOTW episodes sometimes reflect the season’s myth arc. So, given that the sister had to help the Winchesters kill her murderous brother, maybe Sam will be faced with the necessity of killing Dean if Dean goes Cain.

    Would Sam be able to bring himself to do it? I don’t think so. But he may come to understand why his brother would not let him die–even though he wanted to die.

    Comment by JT — February 4, 2014 @ 8:57 pm

  30. I hope you’re right JT. But, thing is, if Carver hadn’t written that *ridiculous* Amelia arc last season (and stood by it!), we wouldn’t have to endure this “revelation” for Sam this year.

    I’m sure this would blow the writers’ minds, but I could actually stand one season where the brothers *aren’t* at each others’ throats. Just because it worked in Season 4 doesn’t mean it has to be repeated every single season.

    Comment by G-dawg — February 4, 2014 @ 9:11 pm

  31. JT–I think the Leviathan fell down a plot hole. :) Seriously, I think that with the regime change, Carver just wanted to start with a clean slate that didn’t include dealing with the rest of the Leviathan, so he just ignored them. A few in purgatory, maybe, but that’s it. It would have been interesting if show had had Sam offing leviathan, but why would he have insisted to Dean that he got out of the business and not mention that? Why hunt down Leviathan but not try to find Kevin? So . . . yeah, plot hole.

    I think the tension between Sam and Dean bothers me because they proved to me last season that the PTB are masters of creating tension and masters of slapping a Band-Aid over the problems rather than fixing them, because it would take too much time and effort to do so. At this point, I’m not convinced show is going to do much of anything with the Cain/Abel plotline, considering how they’ve ignored it for two episodes and the preview didn’t even mention the mark. I think the story you’ve outlined could be interesting, but I’m not sure show is really going to put that much thought/time into it, based on what we’ve seen. So I think it’s a lack of faith that they’ll actually take the time to fix what they’ve broken correctly, at least on my part.

    Comment by huh — February 4, 2014 @ 9:15 pm

  32. I thought this was going to be a “comedic” episode and I was glad to see it was not. Different MOTW and the brothers working the case together.

    Then the idiotic writers showed up and shoved more of their crap down the characters’ throats and they in turned spewed it out on the viewers.

    And the end of the episode I was wondering two things:
    Does Jared even care what his lines are anymore?
    And will they (PLEASE)kill Sam off at the end of the season?

    I am sick of the crap whined out of Sam’s mouth 99% of the time. I am sick of Dean being tough one moment and a wuss the next.

    I have seen writers assassinate characters before and killed shows in the progress. Sometimes the actors have to stand up- if they care- and defend their character. Never happens on this show.

    Glad to have a couple of weeks off from this. I need time to get the bad taste out of my mouth.

    Comment by SL — February 4, 2014 @ 9:26 pm

  33. Whine, whine, whine. I hope you idiots won’t be here next episode.

    Me, I liked it. Classic Supernatural. Granted, Sam seems to have forgotten the whole Dean going to Hell thing, but otherwise, the brothers plotline makes perfect sense.
    Sam is disappointed that Dean convinced him to abandon the trials.
    Sam is disappointed that Dean tricked him into accepting Gadreel.
    That’s why he’s giving up on their brotherhood. It gets in the way of their work.

    Comment by brx — February 4, 2014 @ 10:06 pm

  34. F* you, show! And F* you, Sam! And Dean, please leave this self-righteous a**h*** who cant be bothered to remember that you’ve ALWAYS been willing sacrifice everything for him, and have! Why would you two be together now? I want to cry.

    Whatever happened to “their love for each other saving the world”? Whatever happened to the Sam of “Faith”, “Mystery Spot”, in season three willing to do anything to save his brother, him going crazy trying to make deals while Dean was in hell, Sam remembering hell because “you know me, I’m not leaving my brother alone out there” (or words to that effect)?

    Whatever happened to “You’re my brother and there’s nothing I wouldn’t do for you”???

    Why am I watching this show again? It’s been destroyed beyond recognition and lost all that I loved in it. Why couldn’t we just have had the brothers united and together, caring for each other in their own way, fighting demons and being more involved in the angel war somehow? Who wants this crappy fighting and brothers conflict?

    Comment by Tammy — February 4, 2014 @ 10:07 pm

  35. Obviously, they’re building-up to Dean having to kill Sam (possessed by Abaddon). The only problem is that they’re being a bit too blatant about it.

    Aside for the conversation at the end, the episode was very forgettable.

    Comment by JJA — February 4, 2014 @ 10:47 pm

  36. We are nine seasons in. About 11 years Supernatural time since Dean picked him upat Stanford.

    THINGS CHANG PEOPLE.

    After 11 years of non stop fighting, losing loved ones, and a dozen near death (or death) experiences, Sam just wants to STOP IT ALL. It was selfish to Talk Sam into not finishing the trials simply because he can’t stand being alone. Sam already sacrificed himself once to stop Lucifer. Sure he had to redeem himself because he let him loose, but then he was willing to sacrifice himself again to close hell.

    The whole Sam versus Dean thing is ridiculous but it’s also what drives the show. You guys seemed pissed off that we have two unique different change characters. I wouldn’t have it any other way.

    Comment by Jeff Brown — February 4, 2014 @ 11:33 pm

  37. I liked the episode a lot. For one thing the motw was a bit scary and unpredictable. I didn’t know what was going to happen and I didn’t guess the kitchen guy was her brother. Also …fish tacos? he he he. Plus I definitely cannot be the only one who thought ‘pudding!’ It was a great callback to the show’s history without being over the top.
    Also, Sheri, I completely disagree with you. Sam said that if he was making the same decision, the same circumstances, that he wouldn’t do what Dean did. That he would respect Dean’s wishes and accept his death. How is that wrong? He’s pointing out to Dean that what did wasn’t about doing ‘the right thing’, because he thinks there was another choice that was the right thing. Sam was also trying to show Dean that his decisions aren’t as selfless and righteous as he pretends – that he makes them out of the fear of being alone. You guys keep bringing up Dean selling his soul to hell – but you don’t seem to remember that Sam explicitly asked him not to do anything like that at the time, because he didn’t want to live with the guilt. Dean ignored him and made the deal anyway…you see a pattern here? Sam has always had a different attitude toward death than Dean. He wants to do the right thing and he’s willing to sacrifice his life to accomplish that. He doesn’t see death as being worth fighting against at all costs. Like I think you guys have been so entrenched in Dean’s POV that you are just freaking out that Sam is pointing out some flaws in Dean’s thinking.
    Really, I thought the episode was really good at bringing out genuine conflict between the brothers. They don’t see death or monsters …or responsibilities the same way.
    I’m sorry Lisa, that you are feeling disappointed. You and Sheri both have had a really strong reaction, but I actually think in the end, this is hopeful. It’s the kind of interaction that can lead the boys to be able to understand and trust each other again. Their bond was broken – but now they’re fixing it. Sam isn’t giving up on family or abandoning Dean. He’s working to make things better and pointing out some stuff Dean should really think about – forcing him to think about it and say what he thinks rather than sweep it under the rug. Dean’s kind of being a little bitch about it, but ‘emotionally mature’ has never exactly been one of his strong suits.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 5, 2014 @ 12:39 am

  38. Sam’s speech was exciting in a sense that there were things that I had been wondering about. Like how much of it was Dean doing it for Dean and how much of it was him doing it for Sam or when he made the poison speech yet wanted to come back within 2 weeks was it just the show keeping to format or would they reflect on it and say this is Dean not being able to be apart from Sam.

    I feel that the fear of being alone is true to character. When he loses someone, he immediately wants to replace that person. When dad died Dean wanted to be with Gordon. When him and Sam went their separate ways at the beginning of season five Dean quite easily goes on a mission with Cas even though later on when he was with Sam he was shown not to be big on Cas’ heaven problems. At the end of that episode, he tried to delude himself into thinking he wants to be apart from his family, Cas leaves in the middle of his speech and then he is left alone in the car looking at the passenger seat. Also when Dean went to Purgatory he didn’t have Sam but lo and behold he gets a friend who calls him brother (and there was a part of Dean that thought maybe Benny would be preferable to Sam, a better version). Etc.

    I thought the part about Dean willing to sacrifice when it doesn’t hurt him might have meant that to Dean _anything_ else is preferable to being alone. And that is probably true but not as simple as just having abandonment issues. Look at season 2 for instance. His father died for him, in fact sold his soul for him and now his little brother who he wanted to leave Stanford was also dead. It was just too much to bear.

    I think he never really dealt with his mother’s death if A Very Supernatural Christmas is any indication. Sam asked about their mother quite innocently and Dean blew up.

    However, I hope Sam will acknowledge that there were things that were really stacked against Dean. For instance he did not get to see Sam come to terms with death, I’m sure from Dean’s point of view it seemed that Sam thought it’s better if he just died away. Also Dean got emotionally manipulated by Gadreel like when the angel “pulled the plug” on Sam. Doctors would not do that.

    This will definitely help Dean along in his dark arc. If they want to have Dean be in the worst place he has ever been, then really the only way to do that is to have him think Sam does not want to be brothers with him.

    Comment by ~ San ~ — February 5, 2014 @ 1:07 am

  39. And Sam is coming from a place of hurt. Dean might hit Sam but that is not really Sam’s style. Now Dean got steamrolled by Sam’s Truths but Í think there will be a time when Dean will call out Sam. I sort of get the feeling that Sam might not be running away physically but that doesn’t mean he is not running away. (Like in Scarecrow: “That’s what I want you to do”.)

    Also I thought they did a disservice to Dean by making him appear almost callous about how things turned out. Sort of like yeah Kevin died, we released a demon (King of Hell no less), murderous Gadreel is out working with megalomaniac Metatron but yay you are not dead so we can be “you and me” yet again. I suspect it was only so they could show Dean be flabbergasted. Hopefully it was in actuality more of a defence mechanism. That as long as he did his number one job right which is saving Sam then he would not have to really deal with the crushing issues.

    Comment by ~ San ~ — February 5, 2014 @ 2:32 am

  40. Good episode. I liked the story, the guest characters and it did great as a Motw episode. A new kind of monster and good acting.

    I just want to ignore the last scene to be honest. That is the only thing ruining this otherwise great one. I don´t understand how people can complain about Castiels character, when one of the 2 leads is making this show worse every week. What are the writers doing with Sam? I have to say that it can get very interesting, but I predict that in the end either Sam does save Dean (like when he gets dark with the mark of Cain), or Dean not saving Sam and Sam feeling guilty about what he said. So I bet that it will be very predictable. But we’ll see. Hoping for this bullsh*t to stop though, just move on with the story and let Sam shut the f*ck up about Dean being sellfish.

    Comment by Robin — February 5, 2014 @ 2:35 am

  41. Oh, and at this point, I really hope Crowley and Castiel return soon, because it’s Obvious that outside the hunting moments, Sam and Dean can’t make an interesting episode without them anymore. Can someone give one example of season 8 or 9 where it was just the boys and it didn’t suck (with the emotional things I mean).

    Comment by Robin — February 5, 2014 @ 2:37 am

  42. I would be very much obliged if you could post the episode number in the title. It helps me keep track of things and I’m sure it helps others too.

    Comment by OhMan — February 5, 2014 @ 2:47 am

  43. I hate this episode. Extremely boring case (except fot the killings, which reminded me of Cell from Dragon Ball Z hehe)
    And about the brothers… I can see why Sam is pissed, but come on, every time he opens his mouth it´s like being stabbed in the heart.

    @t1gerlilly:” It’s the kind of interaction that can lead the boys to be able to understand and trust each other again.”

    -I thought that was the whole point of season 8, I’m not interested in watching it again and again and again. Every time I think the brothers are finally in their way of fixing things, something like this happens. The problem is that it’s getting repetitive. I’m convinced the even if they fix things this season, something like this will happen again in season 10, because this writers have very little imagination. The ridiculous and forced conflict between the brothers last season almost made me stop watching. This one is more justified, but come on…

    Other problem is that I’m sick of the way they write Sam, always making him look cold and hurtful for no reason. He’s pissed, I get why, but why make him say things like “only business between us?” or suggest that they’re not brothers anymore?? Why JC always has to make him look unsympathetic? I love both brothers equally, that´s why I’m so sick of the way they are treating one of my favourite characters of all time.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 5, 2014 @ 3:23 am

  44. @19 animal: I do think Jensen ard Jared are protective of their characters and that’s why they had a meeting with the writers a while ago. I wouldn´t be surprised if the Js set up that meeting. Even Jared, who usually enjoys the (good) conflict between S&D said via tweeter that he HATES when the brothers fight. Jensen’s said a million times that he loves the relationship between the brothers and he even said he loves their codepency and doesn´t want it to change. They usually respect their job, but I think maybe the meeting was to discuss future storylines and maybe if J2 are part of the creative process things will get better.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 5, 2014 @ 3:43 am

  45. I’m kind of hating Sam at the moment. Tbh. I wish he’d lost the ability to talk as a side effect of the trials, for all the BS coming out if his mouth.

    Love IS selfish in a way. That is the motivation for a lot of the things we do for our loved ones.

    But love also means not calling our loved ones out on their weak spots. We love them, warts and all. So what if Dean has a fear of being left alone. What else does Sam expect, from the life he’s led? Sam should respect that, not hurt his brother where he knows its going to hurt the most. Not a brother like Dean.

    I love both the brothers but I just cannot find a justification for Sam’s cutting words, however upset he is.

    Damn it. Really upset right now, and just font know what Carver wants to do here. I think I should stop beingio delusional, and accept that he’s out to mature the brothers into realizing that their brotherhood doesn’t come before everything. Well, Sam definitely knows it by now, I guess Dean will get there too.

    I agree with Sheri. The end should be Dean not saving Sam and saying “you were right” and walk away.

    Comment by Tammy — February 5, 2014 @ 3:45 am

  46. Wow, I just found out what Jared said on tweeter last night:”sam can be a real jerk sometimes….” (his exact words)

    Comment by emmanuel — February 5, 2014 @ 4:17 am

  47. Good episode. I know there are plenty who won’t like the conversation at the end but it was honest, and it was needed and at least Sam stuck to his guns.

    The whole idea that Sam wouldn’t save Dean is blown out of proportion. If Sam didn’t want to save Dean he would leave him hunting on his own. Sam has saved Dean before, and he’ll do it again. What Sam won’t do is override Dean’s wishes to get what he (Sam) wants. He won’t put other people’s lives in danger to bring him back from the dead. He won’t disrupt the natural order again because the consequences are too devastating. If Dean is dead then Sam won’t bring him back. If he is dying, with no hope of survival then he will let him go. Sam would let Dean be at peace, and he’d move on content in the knowledge that he’d see him again.

    Comment by Maedbh — February 5, 2014 @ 4:28 am

  48. @maedbbh–I see what you’re saying, but that’s a pretty easy proclamation for Sam to make then, isn’t it? In the current canon, there’s no reason to think Dean would ever choose to go on and be at peace without Sam. I mean, we might have thought he was considering it in 2.1, but since then? Show has been very careful, especially lately, to make sure we all know that Dean needs to be with Sam. So in all likelihood, Sam is never going to have to face the scenario where Dean wants to die and leave him behind. In fact, what if Dean’s wishes are to be brought back even through angel possession, if it means saving him and staying with Sam? Would Sam still draw the line then, even if it means not respecting Dean’s wishes? He wouldn’t have in the past, but these days, when he wouldn’t even look to confirm his brother is dead when he disappears? Well, I guess not.

    I agree that the writers might have been going for the rationale you’re describing, but they’re not doing it well, in my opinion. Truth is, I don’t know why Sam isn’t leaving Dean behind and hunting on his own. He doesn’t enjoy being around Dean, he’s angry at Dean, and he basically disowned him last episode. He’d be fine if he died because he’d see him again eventually, so why would he care about saving him? Sam himself wants to die, as evidenced by being willing to throw his life away for a chance for someone else to track Gadreel down, so why isn’t he on his own so he can commit suicide by hunting? Instead he hangs around Dean and acts like he has no understanding of why Dean might be upset with his words, because he was just being honest about not wanting to be his brother. Is Sam a sadist, a maschoist, or both?

    Comment by huh — February 5, 2014 @ 5:14 am

  49. If there was no hope of saving Sam, why is Sam still alive?

    Epi 1 of season 9 happened right after Sacrifice. In sacrifice, Sam wanted to die not because he was at “peace” with dying, but because he didn’t want to disappoint Dean again and have Dean move on to another “brother”. Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t that the whole happy feely big bro moment church scene? Wasn’t that one of the last things Sam said to Dean before he went into that coma?

    So skip a few hours, Dean goes into Sam’s head, and hears Sam saying he wants to die….so Dean should have assumed that Sam had pushed past those thoughts he had in the church and want to die now because he feels he is at peace and not for the reasons he stated in the church?

    It’s very convenient for the writers and via Sam to ignore what was said from one episode to the next, but I expected the fans to call out their bullshit not buy into them.

    The only thing that episode and Sam’s little speech left me with is the desire for Dean to say to hell with Sam and be on his way. Since Dean is such a selfish incompetent ass hole (because he is apparently doing more harm as a hunter than good) I’m left wondering why Sam is still willing to partner with him.

    Comment by Stone120 — February 5, 2014 @ 5:25 am

  50. @stone – yeah, but sacrifice made no sense either. All season Sam was saying that he was completing the trials because he wanted to live and he thought Dean didn’t – so he thought if he did them he was more likely to live through them. But they both knew from the beginning that the person who did them _could_ die. Then in Sacrifice Dean is all ‘yes you are going to die. You have to stop.” And Sam is like ‘so what?’ Then Sam’s like ‘I have to see this through otherwise you’ll never trust me” and then he went into whiny bitch mode and started ranting about how Dean already doesn’t trust him and prefers other people to him. He never wanted to die. He wasn’t suicidal. He just knew, the way that the audience and Dean knew, that death was a possible outcome. What made no sense was him making it all about Dean. Or ‘choosing each other’. I mean WTF? Which was pretty much Dean’s expression when Sam laid all that on him. Of course, the ultimate irony is that right after that, in the season opener, Dean categorically proves that Sam was right and that he doesn’t trust Sam, not even with something as basic as his own mind and body.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 5, 2014 @ 6:09 am

  51. Sam wasn’t talking about ever saving Dean, but in the specific situation of tricking him into letting an angel possess him. Everybody had to know how this was going to end up. And Sam has every right to call Dean out. And who in this life hasn’t had a cold, hard truth laid out to them by a family member. Dean does do a lot of the things he does because he doesn’t want to be alone. It goes all the was back to season 1 when, in Salvation, Dean was upset because Sam wanted to leave and go back to school when the yellow eyed demon was dead. It has been proven in the past that Sam is willing to lay down his life for Dean, but Sam has also come to realize that when it’s your time, let go. It reminds me a little of Buffy. Her friends thought they were doing what was best and brought her back from the dead, not realizing that she was in heaven.
    I, for one am excited to see where this will take the boys. Sam has been trying to show Dean for a long time that he doesn’t have to be his protector anymore (season 7, time for a wedding) even back then, he was trying to make Dean realize that he needs to take time for himself and stop being Sam’s protector.
    This is a show about 2 brothers, but the fan base has it so divided that it has become, in a lot of ways, the Dean show and how crappy Sam can be. It amazes me how many times I read, Dean should just leave Sam. Why? Because he speaks from the heart. Dean is a strong guy and can handle whatever Sam is dishing out.
    I have been loving this season and if conflict with the brothers was going to turn me off, I would have left in season 1.

    Comment by Sharyn — February 5, 2014 @ 6:10 am

  52. I also think that Sam is kind of laying it on the table for Dean in a way he can’t ignore. When Sam says they don’t trust each other and have hurt each other Dean always answers ‘well we’re family’ to stop the discussion. Sam’s saying ‘that’s not good enough anymore. Just saying that doesn’t change anything.” But he’s not raging at Dean or leaving or physically throwing punches. He’s continually asking Dean about it to get him to talk and engage with him. He won’t let it alone. And ok, he’s poking the bear a little bit, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. When something is festering you have to lance it and get it into the open for it to heal.
    With one of my sibs, they can be scowling with their arms crossed and completely rigid and if you ask ‘what are you mad about’ they’ll say ‘I’m not mad’. And then I’ll sigh and say ‘you’re clearly pissed about something, what is it? At which point they usually say a bunch of angry things and then stand there looking surprised, like they didn’t know that was what they were thinking. Some people just don’t verbalized things unless they have to – and you can’t get to resolving stuff until you at least know what the issue is – which a bunch of you have called out as being an issue between the boys.
    It’s too bad you see Sam as being the bad guy in this, but I really don’t know how you expected everything to be all hunky dory after the first half of the season.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 5, 2014 @ 6:24 am

  53. I have rewatched the episode for that last scene and I do agree that Sam was telling Dean he would not go to extreme measures to save Dean. For all of those who have been whining for years that Sam doesn’t have a POV, I hope you enjoyed it, because I sure did not.

    Eric Charmelo, the writer, tweeted during the episode that they had to “Break down to rebuild,” talking about the brothers mythical brother bond, and he said that “progress didn’t mean resolution,” whatever the hell that means. I am trying to look at this episode in the context of that “rebuilding,” and the show as a whole, because I am one inch away from chucking the whole thing. I do not agree with Carver’s idea of what this supposed brother bond is – not even a little bit. How can you rebuild something that was never there? I also want a supernatural action/drama, not a years’ long narrative about the emotional trauma of two supposedly tough men trying to reach emotional manhood, and I have no interest in a discussion of which brother has committed the most or biggest sins and the justifications for those arguments.

    Having Sam call Dean selfish did not just invalid Dean’s whole life; it invalided Sam’s life and it invalided the entire show. According to Sam’s reasoning, Mary making a deal with the YED for John’s life was a selfish act. If she had not, then Dean would have been born, but Sam would not have. Mary made that decision out of love, just as Dean made the possession decision out of love. We saw John give up his lifetime pursuit for the demon that ruined his and his childrens’ lives for Dean. According to Sam’s reasoning, that was a selfish act. Having Sam call Dean selfish clearly shows that Sam has no understanding of love for anyone but himself because he puts everything…absolutely everything that has ever happened…onto Dean. According to Sam’s reasoning, there is no CO-dependency in the relationship; only Dean’s dependency.

    We saw in the Pilot that Sam’s go to is to run away from his problems, but we have also seen that it is Sam who also always comes back to Dean. He did it with Meg when they first met. He did it in The End. He did it with Amelia. He did it in Sacrifice. He not only chose Dean; he was wanting to die because “ waa, waa” Dean put his supernatural friends above Sam. Besides that, we have seen that every time Sam is separated from Dean, Sam falls completely apart while, on the other hand, we have seen Dean go on hunting – not happily hunting, but continuing his life.

    What we saw in the Pilot was that Dean was quite capable of continuing his life alone; he had been doing that for some time, but that he preferred to have his family with him. We have always seen that Dean considers family everything important in his life. Most recently, we saw it in First Born when Dean told Cain that you never give up on family. We saw in Bad Boys that Dean willingly gave up a chance at happiness and willingly accepted his responsibility for Sam that John had put on him, yet Sam believes that is a selfish thing. I call BS.

    That is how I view Sam’s POV, that is how I view the mythical brotherhood, and that is how I view Sam as a character. There is no rebuilding, IMO, because there is no brotherhood.

    Comment by Sheri — February 5, 2014 @ 6:29 am

  54. It would be one thing if that last discussion between Dean and Sam was an honest conversation, but that requires both parties to be allowed to be honest and present their side, and honesty requires truth. I didn’t see much balance or much truth last night.

    Sam saying Dean did it because he doesn’t want to be alone? Too simplistic and may be a small factor, which is human to not want to be alone, but it ignores the bigger factor, one that Dean has admitted to, that it’s been ingrained in Dean to save Sam and to protect him.

    Sam saying Dean does more harm than good? Not true. Maybe we should ask all the people Dean has saved.

    Sam saying Dean sacrifices when Dean isn’t the one hurt? Not true. Just off the top of my head, I think we saw this season in “Bad Boys”, and I thought Sam saw it too, but apparently he’s choosing to ignore it, that Dean sacrificed for Sam. Dean was the only one hurt there, certainly it benefited Sam. Then there’s Hell, pretty sure Dean suffered and was hurt there.

    Comment by Emme — February 5, 2014 @ 6:33 am

  55. Now I feel even more like they are going with a co-dependent angle.

    To me the somewhat co-dependent elements made the characters deeper and more unique. But I don’t think they were ever in literal co-dependent relationship (as in one of them is narcissistic etc.) and a lot of their strength came from being all about the other one. Now it’s like their relationship is portrayed as crippling.

    I don’t trust the writers. Plus I feel like a lot of people who have complained that they want the brothers to be more “healthy” etc. are in actuality looking for more Dean/Cas.

    ***

    @53 Sheri. Sam did not see Dean leaving the boys home as a selfish thing. Quite the contrary. It’s directly in his lines. But after this shock no wonder if his perception on some things is muddied.

    Comment by ~ San ~ — February 5, 2014 @ 7:08 am

  56. Here is my problem with the ending. Once again we have Sam telling Dean what’s wrong and expecting change.So when does that come around to Sam? When does Dean get to rant about how Sam has to change to make things better between them? How is it all Dean’s fault for how things are? This is all we’ve heard the past 2 episodes is what DEAN has done wrong and how DEAN has to change. Nothing at all about Sam. It must be so hard to be so perfect like Sam that nothing is his fault.
    Sorry if this doesn’t make any sense. I’m just so supremely pissed off about the whole situation.

    Comment by denise — February 5, 2014 @ 7:16 am

  57. Sam is in no way perfect, but in this case, he has a point. What Dean did was wrong. He tricked Sam because he didn’t want to let him go and now Kevin is dead. Yes, Dean made a deal to bring Sam back to life and ended up in hell, but Sam tried everything to get him back. It seems to me that people forget that Sam also went to hell to save everyone. I thought Dean had learned his lesson about the natural order of things when he wore Death’s ring and realized that there are consequences for your actions.
    Dean had a whole year of a normal life with Lisa. And just cause he said that he looked for a way to bring Sam back, he still managed to find time to have barbecues and a job and a life. But when Sam does the same thing essentially, he is constantly taken over the coals for it. He didn’t know Dean was in purgatory, just dead. And he has learned the lesson that death taught. We know that Sam suffered over the loss of Dean, but he also tried to move on. It is amazing to me that people say they love both brothers, but only seem to want a happy ending for one.
    They need to work through these trust and codependency issues and just because we don’t like the way things are laid out, they still needed to be said. Was all the Dean fans freaking out at the beginning of season 5 when Dean told Sam that he didn’t trust him anymore? Just curious.

    Comment by Sharyn — February 5, 2014 @ 7:28 am

  58. As I recall, most everyone on here agreed Dean did something wrong by tricking Sam into angel possession. Even if you ultimately agreed with his decision, I don’t remember many people saying he was absolutely right and Sam doesn’t get to be mad. So why are people so upset by his reaction now? Yes, he’s saying it in the harshest way possible, but is any of it untrue? What should Dean’s answer have been when Sam asked for him to explain what good had come of Sam still being alive? Because Sam has said he wants more than “well, you’re alive.”

    @53 –yes, all those deals, I think we’re supposed to be selfish. Making demon deals is bad. It’s bad when it’s other characters, it’s bad when it’s the Winchesters. Mary making the deal, was based in part in not wanting to be alone. YED stated that specifically to help get her to agree. John making the deal for Dean was selfish. Dean verbalized that throughout season 2 and later still mentioned feeling like he had a hole in him because he should have died. Dean making the deal for Sam was selfish; both of them stated that numerous times. It was particularly bad in all those cases because it furthered the world towards the Apocolypse, but even with that extreme ending aside, making deals is never good. That is what Sam is trying to get Dean to acknowledge. They aren’t immortal and they both will have to die one day. Sam could have done it closing Hell. Him not doing that was his decision, but to come back knowing “I didn’t finish HELL because I love my brother, and he loved me so much that now the king of hell is loose and our friend is dead…” I can see why he’s swinging with everything he’s got at Dean.

    I hope they reconcile, but I can’t really find fault in Sam’s logic. It doesn’t mean he hates Dean. It doesn’t mean he doesn’t understand family. Acting like he doesn’t love Dean over everyone is as reactionary as Sam finding the meanest way to say what he wants to get Dean to hear him. Sometimes loving someone means, saying things they don’t want to hear, and if anything, Sam’s the only one able to see big picture here.

    Comment by Sarah — February 5, 2014 @ 7:38 am

  59. @ 56

    “Once again we have Sam telling Dean what’s wrong and expecting change.So when does that come around to Sam? When does Dean get to rant about how Sam has to change to make things better between them?”

    This exactly. It’s so imbalanced right now. Sam is blaming Dean and blaming him for more than just Gadreel.

    ***
    @58 – “Yes, he’s saying it in the harshest way possible, but is any of it untrue?”

    Yes, especially:

    - Sam saying Dean does more harm than good.

    Not true. Maybe we should ask all the people Dean has saved.

    - Sam saying Dean sacrifices when Dean isn’t the one hurt.

    Not true. Just off the top of my head, I think we saw this season in “Bad Boys”, and I thought Sam saw it too, but apparently he’s choosing to ignore it, that Dean sacrificed for Sam. Dean was the only one hurt there, certainly it benefited Sam. Then there’s Hell, pretty sure Dean suffered and was hurt there.

    Comment by Emme — February 5, 2014 @ 7:47 am

  60. @59 – Actually, if you’re going to keep bringing up Hell, then numbers wise I’m not sure more people have been saved. Dean selling his soul, put him in Hell, where he broke and broke the first seal. That’s why the demons wouldn’t let him out for anything Sam had and angels had to come get him. I know the show and fans like to forget that, but Dean broke seal number one and he did it with an admittedly selfish deal. So now you have to weigh all the people who died as a result of that act against the people him and Sam have saved.
    The Hell deal is a better argument for Sam’s point here.

    Comment by Sarah — February 5, 2014 @ 7:53 am

  61. Thi g is, I don’t have a problem with Sam being p*ed off. I think he has a right to be upset and angry.

    But he sure has a crappy way of saying, “Look, you’re my brother and I know you love me, as I do you, but I feel what you did wasn’t the right thing because….” Or “We’ll always be family, but sometimes we need to see the bigger picture because.. “. Etc. Which I feel any normal person would be able to say, let alone someone who knows what his brother has always done for him.

    And which I think the Sam I know and love (sorry Sheri, I don’t see Sam the way you do) would be intending to say. I just can’t see the situation translating into “I don’t want us to be brothers anymore” and “your decisions have nearly always been selfish, Dean”, which this Sam seems to be saying.

    I hate these writers.

    Comment by Tammy — February 5, 2014 @ 8:01 am

  62. Who is freaking out because Sam said he doesn’t trust Dean any more? I think more hurtful things were said in that episode other than Sam not trusting Dean. And nobody had an issue with Sam having his little Jerry Springer drama with Amelia. What people had issues with was the concept of Sam turning around and getting the heck out of dodge without knowing what had really happened to Dean. Even outside of the supernatural verse, that’s a shitty thing to do to your sibling. “We were hiking down a mountain, I saw my brother disappear down a hole. I ran because there was nobody there to help me hold the flashlight to look for him”.

    Nobody, including Dean, wanted Sam to start another apocalypse in order to save Dean. And guess what people? There is no apocalypse going on because Dean saved Sam. The angel war (which is the biggest issue this season)is happening because of Castiel’s trust in Metatron. I notice nobody is giving Castiel hell over that.

    Gadreel already had a vessel, everything he did wearing Sam, he could have done wearing whoever that bartender is. The only thing we can say for sure is that he would not have had as easy an access to Kevin if he wasn’t wearing Sam. Considering Kevin kept wanting to leave the bunker, it would have been a matter of time before he did. And Kevin would be dead prophet walking because he wasn’t kill because he knew the Winchesters, he was killed because he was the current prophet.

    Comment by Stone120 — February 5, 2014 @ 8:02 am

  63. @60 – we’ll have to agree to disagree because Sam is wrong that it wasn’t a sacrifice and that Dean didn’t suffer.

    I don’t want to beat a dead horse, which the seals debate is, but breaking a seal that no one knew about is not the same as breaking a seal that everyone warned about.

    I had hoped we’d have an honest, truthful and balanced attempt to fix this relationship, but right now, Sam is just blaming Dean and putting it all on Dean to change. Sam isn’t perfect and Sam needs to realize he had a role in the shambles this relationship has become. Until Sam accepts responsibility and sees that he needs to change and not just say that Dean needs to change, nothing will be fixed. They should just go their separate ways.

    Comment by Emme — February 5, 2014 @ 8:07 am

  64. @ San: At the time, Sam did not think Dean leaving the boy’s home was selfish and even thanked him for all he has done for Sam. But in calling Dean selfish for everything bad that has happened in their lives, he is taking that thanks back. No, it is even more than that. He is being emotionally abusive now giving every appearance of being emotionally manipulative when he wants something (which he has always been – remember Benny).

    @ Sharyn: I will tell you right up front that after this episode, I make no claim — total zero — that I like Sam. There is nothing this show can do to repair the mythical brotherhood, because there is no brotherhood. How can you rebuild something that was never there? What there is is one brother who loves the other and just got kicked in the family jewels for doing so.

    Sam did not make his point at all. That conversation was not about what Sam was angry about. He said what it was about: he prefers the idea of being dead. He did not mention being angry about anything. He did not say “I love you, but I wouldn’t have done that” or “I get why you did what you did, but I wouldn’t have.” What Sam said was that Dean is needy and selfish; that he only acts as a hero for selfish reasons.

    I don’t know about all Dean fans at the beginning of S5, but I thought it was about damned time. Sam chose a demon over his brother, period. It bothered Dean a lot (and I think it still does) and he told Sam that he could not worry about when Sam might slip up again and concentrate on the job at the same time; that job being stopping the Apocalypse. Perfectly understandable; all of humanity was at risk, the angels had told Dean that only the righteous man could stop it, and his divided attention could get him killed if he did.

    Comment by Sheri — February 5, 2014 @ 8:07 am

  65. Dean broke the first seal, yes, but would there have been an apocalypse if the rest of the 65, and especially the 66th one had not been broken. The first and last seals were the only two specific seals, it took both to start the apocalypse. Dean broke the first one after decades spent being tortured. Sam broke the last because he was sure his way was the only way. It wasn’t just about killing Lillith, it was about killing her at that particular spot, the spot that Ruby made sure Sam killed her in…..Not to rehash old arguments, just don’t see how that’s in Sam’s favor.

    Comment by Stone120 — February 5, 2014 @ 8:09 am

  66. And I must say that I think it interesting that all those people saying that Dean saved Sam in season 2 did it for selfish reasons, i.e. didn’t want to be alone, thinks that he is so stupid that he would prefer to spend eternity in hell rather than live without Sam for a couple of decades on earth. I guess he thought the presence of the demons torturing him would serve as adequate companionship..”oh never alone, no never alone, with all the demons surrounding me and cutting me to pieces for the rest of eternity, never will I be alone”.

    Comment by Stone120 — February 5, 2014 @ 8:20 am

  67. I just don’t see how this is ever going to be “turned right” or “fixed”. Whatever.

    This is like early season 8 all over again. Took me ages getting over that. But i thought a few episodes ago that finally, we were going to get our brothers back after resolving their issues, but it just keeps getting worse. Maybe should just stop watching.

    Comment by Tammy — February 5, 2014 @ 8:31 am

  68. Actually, the events in season two reinforce Sam’s point.

    Dean himself said that he was selfish to make the deal. He couldn’t live with Sam being gone so Sam would have to live with him being gone. He was devasated when his dad did it for him but he went ahead and did it for Sam.

    “It was selfish and I’m ok with that.”

    Sam–I’m not

    “Tough. After everything I’ve done for this family, I think I’m entitled. (pause) Truth is, I’m tired, Sam. I don’t know, it’s like there’s a, a light at the end of the tunnel.”

    And highlighting the point about how making deals and such is a really really bad idea, Dean unwittingly set the events of the apocalyse in motion and set Sam on a revenge path that ended up with him trusting Ruby.

    Sam did not say he would never save DeaWhn. He was ready to put the cook through a wall to find out what was in the pudding that Dean ate. He said that he wouldn’t under the same circumstances trick Dean into being possessed to save his life. He would let him go. Why? because it is a terrible idea to make deals like that and put people at risk and it’s worse if you know that the person would absolutely not

    Comment by jace — February 5, 2014 @ 8:37 am

  69. @ Stone #120: Just to add to your comment, Dean did not sacrifice himself because he did not want to be alone. Dean sacrificed himself because he thought Sam’s life was more valuable than his — that old low self-esteem that John had pounded into his head. That point was covered in his conversation with Bobby.

    @ Tammy: For me, there is no “fixing.” The first part of the season gave Dean the emotional arc; the POV, and Road Trip switched that emotional arc over to Sam and we are now getting his POV. Sam says he has a heart (with the unfinished part of that sentence being that Dean does not), yet I see Sam as the villan, the monster, this season against a backdrop of happy, family-loving monsters co-existing with humans.

    Sam actually told Dean that nothing he has ever done has been good and there is no upside to being alive (Sam prefers death), because Dean is selfish…”it’s what all of this boils down to,” so says Sam.

    Comment by Sheri — February 5, 2014 @ 8:49 am

  70. want those measures taken to save them. Sam’s mad because he was used to kill kevin and to save him again, Dean had to make another deal to set crowley loose and Sam feels that his life is not worth more than the cost of those things. (First Born)

    Poor Dean is absolutely floored by Sam’s words because to him you go as far as you need to for family and Sam’s saying that you really need to look at your motives and count the cost and that saving family may not be worth the cost to other people. Yes, it was harsh and upseting because Sam is still mad and frustrated that dean can’t see it and when have these guys ever held back. At lease no one got hit or choked.

    Sam said, “We don’t see things the same way anymore” and Dean is crushed because he thought that they were on the same page about non agreements and saving each other above all else. I’m sure the hardest thing that Dean ever did was stand by and watch Sam fall into the pit and he is desperate to never have that happen again.

    I think this whole thing to going to push Dean farther to the dark side and to doing things that he may not have done before. We’ll see. Sam may have to save Dean this time and that might be interesting.

    Comment by jace — February 5, 2014 @ 8:52 am

  71. As usual, for me, the problem was with the writing. It’s funny b/c T1gerlilly says they can’t work on their issues until they each know what the issues are, and I think this third conversation did absolutely NOTHING to shed any light on Sam’s issues. He’s still skirting around the issue, instead of addressing it directly.

    I understand exactly why Sam is angry w/Dean, and I think Sam should have the sympathy in this story but the writing failed him as usual in that arena. Instead of letting Sam explain his position, the writers just gave him cold/harsh dialogue.

    For instance, instead of having Sam say Dean does more harm than good, why not have him say, “Dean, remember Doc Benton? Remember how I wanted to turn you into a monster to save your life? And you didn’t that want. You told me you didn’t want to be saved like that. Well, you were right then, and I was wrong. Just like you have limits, I have limits to how I want to be saved too. Turning you into a monster wouldn’t have led to anything good just like having me possessed by Gadreel led to Kevin’s death. We have to stop and think about the consequences before we act.”

    To me, the same point is made, but it’s put into context and given some depth. And it actually leads to a conversation. Leaving the conversation at “Well, I wouldn’t save you. Good night” is not going to help Dean understand what Sam’s talking about.

    The heart of this show (i.e., the brothers’ relationship) is dying, IMO. Honestly, I don’t care if the brothers ever reconcile. They way they relate is being fundamentally altered in the name of “maturity,” and it is nothing I wish to see. Sam doesn’t seem all that interested in reconciling w/Dean anyway so I honestly think Dean needs to find a new partner. They can go their separate ways.

    What is so special about their relationship if neither cares if the other is dying? Why would I be invested in that? And if Sam doesn’t want to be Dean’s brother, then why is Dean hanging around? Why don’t they just split and be done w/it? Why doesn’t Sam leave? Why is he still there since he apparently can’t stand Dean?

    Carver has ruined this show for me. I know some will say he’s ruining the brothers to re-create them, but I have no interest in Carver’s version of “Supernatural.”

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 5, 2014 @ 8:58 am

  72. I also think that framing Sam’s issues in the harshest way possible assured that Dean would not understand Sam and guaranteed that Sam would take a beating w/the fans.

    Heck, I’m one of the fans beating up on Sam for last night’s talk, and I love Sam. I still do. I just hate what Carver has done to him, and what he plans to do to this relationship. He seems determined to dismantle it as much as possible. I never had a an issue w/the way Sam and Dean related. I thought they were in a fine place at the end of S7, so all this destruction has been completely OTT and unnecessary to me.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 5, 2014 @ 9:04 am

  73. Lisa1, you should write dialogue for the show. :) Carver obviously doesn’t want them on the same page yet. He wants the misunderstanding and hurt feelings for awhile more to push the plot along somewhere. Like I said in a previous post, I think it’s leading somewhere bad for Dean.

    Comment by jace — February 5, 2014 @ 9:06 am

  74. Thanks, Jace :-)

    I honestly don’t think it’s that difficult to have Sam state his point w/o isolating his brother or breaking his brother’s heart.

    But as you said, it is clear, the writers are skirting around the issue – esp since Sam has yet to plainly state it – b/c they want some big finale bro talk! That is simply bad writing. If they weren’t ready to properly address it, they should have just kept the brothers apart until the finale.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 5, 2014 @ 9:20 am

  75. I’m fine with Sam using harsh words. Whether we like it or not most people are not able to fight in a sensible way hearing the other one out and then stating their own argument. It would be really unrealistic to expect Sam to be the guiding light to Dean right now. His brother hurt him and he does not trust his brother.

    I believe this is used to advance Dean’s story. Why else have him accept a mark that originally came from Lucifer unless it’s gonna turn him onto the path that Cain was on before love pulled him out. The only way Dean will go there is if he does not have Sam since Sam is the one who “keeps him human”.

    I’m wary of how the brothers’ relationship is portrayed because Carver has an agenda. Like he looked at the characters and thought they were fucked up not in a good dramatic way but in a shitty way so he has to set out to mature them. By all means make them become better brothers to each other but don’t lose SamnDean.

    Comment by ~ San ~ — February 5, 2014 @ 9:24 am

  76. I would accept that, San, if Sam had been shown to be angry, if he had blown up at Dean. Sam has had quite a lot of time to think about the situation and what he thinks is “wrong” w/their relationship.

    I’m not sensing any anger or seething on his part. He seems fairly calm and very in control of his feelings. He knows what he wants to say to Dean, but he’s just not saying it. He’s not saying it in a way that it can be rec’d and understood. If Sam wants to reconcile w/Dean (I’m not sure why he does but he must since he hasn’t left), then you would think he would want to make it crystal clear to Sam why he feels the way he does. He has not done that. He has only isolated his brother so it makes me wonder if he is actually interested in “fixing” their problems . . . whatever they may be.

    No one is forcing Sam to hang around Dean. If he doesn’t want to be brothers w/Dean, and he doesn’t want to hunt, why is Sam still there? I guess I’ve sort of reached the place where Sheri is in wondering why I should care about a lead that is removed from the show in all the ways that count? He doesn’t like hunting, doesn’t like his brother, doesn’t like life. It’s very frustrating.

    I still love Sam, but Carver is making that quite difficult.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 5, 2014 @ 9:56 am

  77. Lisa1, I basically agree with all you wrote, and if you read my posts, you’ll see I said the same tthings, but not so eloquently as you :)

    But I still see the connection, the brothers bring who they are, the ‘bond’, if you will, since the middle of the last season. Through the second half of season 8, through Zeke/Gadreel, through even this episode, tbh. They constantly stand together, look at each other, have their own unspoken communication. That’s another reason I find it so hard to swallow Sam’s pronouncements. The words dont fit the actions, so I still don’t see him dismantling the relationship somehow. Didn’t we see Sam lose it oveDean being roofied?

    I don’t know what to think. At all.

    Comment by Tammy — February 5, 2014 @ 10:06 am

  78. G-dawg and huh, thank you for your answers. It doesn’t make sense to me that Sam would simply drop the idea of looking for his brother, but the writers/show runners of SN can never be accused of being logical or consistent. I’m sure you’re right about the Cain/Able plot line, huh. Dean will probably sling the jawbone around a little and that will be that. And, like you, G-dawg, I could do without the boys’ being at each others’ throats every season–especially since these bro conflicts are almost always artificial, overblown, or incomprehensible. I think the present conflict is all three.

    I can understand why Sam might have been angry years ago when Dean sold his soul for him. But that anger would have stemmed from Sam’s love for his brother.

    This anger is absurd. Did Dean have any way of knowing Sam would rather have died than be inhabited by an angel? No. Could Dean have predicted that Gadreel would turn out to be a rotter? Especially given that Castiel vouched for the stranger, no. Was Dean responsible for the fact that Gadreel used Sam’s body to kill? Again, no.

    Does Carver actually believe that what we’re seeing is a more “mature” Sam? He isn’t. This Sam is an overgrown child who’s throwing a hissy-fit because he didn’t die and busies himself blaming his brother instead of the individual who’s really responsible for dominating and exploiting him: Gadreel.

    I can only hope that our Sam–Kripke and Jared’s Sam–comes back soon so we never have to see this selfish, stupid, immature, self-righteous little kid again. Of course, it’s a faint hope. As their work reflects, most Hollywood writers never advance beyond adolescence in their understanding of human nature.

    Comment by JT — February 5, 2014 @ 10:27 am

  79. I think a lot rides on Carver. He really upped the ante in season 8. Made Sam resentful about having to hunt, made Dean more controlling, Dean did not accept Amelia and Sam did not accept Benny etc. etc. Sure the characters are aging so certain issues need to be dealt with but I would not be surprised if Carver turned out to be part of the group that goes: “The brothers are 30-years-old yet so co-dependent this is creepy!”.

    The kicker is that while Sam and Dean’s relationship has always had some co-dependent elements to it, it was not defined by co-dependency. (What a dangerous term in any case since it seems to have different meanings to everyone). The show was just being realistic about how these characters might be after the childhood they had and being short on the list of people who are still alive. It gave a very interesting dynamic to their relationship, it was a source of tension but also strength.

    The co-dependent elements could be found in the story but the show did not take a stance on it. But it’s like now the writers want to state that yes Sam and Dean are so damaged goods, their relationship is super unhealthy and that only maturity will save them. The show did not have to go there.

    Comment by ~ San ~ — February 5, 2014 @ 10:29 am

  80. @55 San – Since I’m the only destiel fan here and I’ve been pretty vocal about wanting the brothers to have a healthier relationship, I’m guessing your comment was directed to me. If not, I fit your criteria, so I figure I’ll respond.
    To me it’s not an either or – I want both, but they aren’t connected. I want to see the brothers with a strong, healthy, connected relationship. A ‘you and me against the world’, ‘we’ll fight shoulder-to-shoulder’ relationship. That has nothing to do with the other friends and relationships the brothers have – except in so far as I think it’s better, healthier, and more interesting if they have other people in their lives. What’s wrong with that? Having them be obsessed with each other to the exclusion of all else is just creepy. But I don’t really think that’s what most bi-bro fans want. I think they want the brothers to have an intense, protective, connected relationship (one which is not creepy).
    In my own life the people I’m closest to are my sibs. Not that we don’t fight, sometimes seriously, but that’s part of being siblings too. But because I’m close to my sibs, I just don’t see a relationship where you don’t understand or trust your siblings, don’t respect their choices or believe in them – and LIE all the time – as being a healthy relationship. I also think that any close relationship takes work sometimes and isn’t trouble-free. People screw up. Get pissed at each other. Grow apart. When that happens it takes work – but it’s not like you can’t mend things if both people want to mend them – sometimes stronger than ever and with a better understanding and respect for each other.
    I think some folks kind of ignored the lying and tricking and other stuff (on Sam’s part as well as Dean’s) because they like the brothers and value their relationship. So they’re upset that the damaged parts of their relationship are being brought to the forefront and addressed, but it’s not like they weren’t already there. I feel really bad for Sheri and Lisa, because they sound like they’re feeling the same kind of visceral shock that I felt about Dean’s character in last season’s finale and the season opener. Just total disbelief and disappointment. And that sucks. Especially because I understand why they value the brother’s relationship, even if I have a different view of it.
    To me the hopeful thing is – that powerful, amazing bond that Lisa and Sheri believed – that might not have been in the past, but it can be in the future. In a way, I give the writer’s credit, because they see what the fans want and are putting them on a path to have it for real, rather just in headcanon. That’s what I’m hoping for – that they come out of this with more respect and understanding of each other, able to trust each other and be honest with each other.
    Now what does that have to do with Dean/Cas?
    I don’t think it has anything to do with it. Yeah, I hope for Dean to have a strong, healthy relationship with Cas, whether that’s friendship or more, but that’s kind of irrelevant to his relationship with his brother. Ideally, he’d have a good relationship with both. I also don’t see the logic of how wanting Sam and Dean to be closer and have a healthier relationship equates to wanting Dean/Cas, though maybe if Dean stops lying so much and learns to be honest and say what he feels that would make his relationship closer to Cas. But I really don’t know how you’re making that connection. Unless you just wanted to trivialize my opinion by basically saying ‘oh, you’re just a shipper and everything is about your ship.” which is insulting. But I’m hoping you didn’t mean that.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 5, 2014 @ 10:33 am

  81. @79. San, loved your post.

    Its like their relationship is being put under the microscope, every fault analyzed and talked about, (supposedly to be ‘remedied’). Instead of their admittedly unhealthy, but beloved, relationship just be there in the background while they fight the supernatural together.

    Comment by Tammy — February 5, 2014 @ 10:37 am

  82. I’m hoping that this lastes rift between Dean and Sam has something to do with the “mark of Cain” burned into Dean’s arm.
    Remember that Cain told Dean there were consequences of having the mark, but Dean was too intent on getting a weapon to kill Abaddon.
    Could one of those consequences be that the people you love come to dispise you? But Cain found a wife so maybe that’s not it.
    I hope the writers have something up their sleeves because Sam’s speech to Dean was cruel beyond belief.

    Comment by SoCal — February 5, 2014 @ 10:42 am

  83. OMG the pseudo-Sam of early season 8 is back! Someone, get rid of him! Quick!

    Comment by Tammy — February 5, 2014 @ 10:47 am

  84. I think there’s two possibilities at this point. Either Sam will get possessed by Abaddon and Dean will have to kill him, or Sam will be forced to eat his words and save Dean. Honestly I prefer it to be the latter but after the last season I think it’ll be the former.
    Last year I was so frustrated with Sam, But right now I don’t even care what he says. I’m just glad Dean gets to be a part of mytharc this year.

    Comment by miki — February 5, 2014 @ 10:52 am

  85. “This anger is absurd. Did Dean have any way of knowing Sam would rather have died than be inhabited by an angel? No. Could Dean have predicted that Gadreel would turn out to be a rotter? Especially given that Castiel vouched for the stranger, no. Was Dean responsible for the fact that Gadreel used Sam’s body to kill’? Again, no.”

    But Dean did know that Sam would rather die. He told that to Gadreel in the hospital and he said it again to Gadreel when he thought he was talking to Sam. He lied to Sam for months because he knew Sam would eject the angel. Cas didn’t know Ezekiel, he just heard that he was an ok guy. That’s a pretty slim thread to hold onto. Sam had more proof that Ruby was on their side than that and look how that turned out. Did no one consider that the angel might be lying? And looky there, he was. The risk was too great that something would go wrong with the possession. Dean knows better than anyone that making deals with angels and demons always comes back to bite you. He didn’t cause Gadreel to kill Kevin–Gad is completely responsible for that–but he gave the angel pretty easy access to not only kevin but the Men of Letters bunker without ever really knowing if he was trustworthy. I get Sam’s anger and frustration (and I think Sam is also feeling some survivors guilt over kevin.) over Dean not seeing how screwed up the situation was and with Dean just shrugging it off and thinking that’s what you do. It’s not the first time that someone has said that to him. Lisa said something like I’m close to my sister but I wouldn’t bring her back if she died. That’s all twisted and wrong.

    Dean was not an innocent bystander in this and I am not sure why people want to make him one. He isn’t supposed to be. It’s his guilt and desire for revenge and now his emotional distance from Sam that will drive his upcoming story imo.

    YMMV and all that.

    Comment by jace — February 5, 2014 @ 10:52 am

  86. I do agree that Sam’s words were very harsh. Sam is not perfect either and things said in anger and frustration often come out badly. these guys have said some very cruel things to each other over the years and it always hurt the most from the ones you love the most. I remember Sam saying to Dean a couple of times after harsh words, “Don’t YOU say that to me.” implying that it hurt worse coming from Dean than anyone else.

    Comment by jace — February 5, 2014 @ 10:59 am

  87. Sam seems to be thinking that Dean is in hunting to have something to do that gives him some satisfaction, not to fight evil, and to keep Sam for someone with whom to avoid loneliness . So Dean’s saving Sam, and even his family talk, are largely Dean devices to keep Sam feeling he must stay around. When as in 9.23, finishing the Trials would have banished demons, an ultimate victory over evil, Dean stopped Sam. Finishing the Trials would have killed Sam thus leaving Dean in loneliness; Dean’s real interest isn’t defeating evil it is to avoid his own loneliness. By that logic, Dean saving Sam in 9.01 was to keep a good partner and avoid loneliness–not to save a beloved brother. And, apparently Dean doesn’t care if saving Sam leads to continued evil or hugely negative events (death of friends); all Dean cares about is serving his need to avoid loneliness and having a good partner to kill demons and others. Sam wants to defeat evil which is a goal worth giving one’s life for; Dean simply wants to not be alone and have something to hunt and kill.

    I don’t agree with that assessment of Dean, or that Sam would think that. But that is what Carver Sam’s comments suggest to me. I agree that Dean has been depicted as more needy for human contact than Dean. I agree too that Sam is not obligated to match Dean’s degree of attachment. It is immature to allow someone else to define and dictate to you how thoroughly devoted you should be. But I don’t think Dean’s motives are so self-serving.

    Actually enjoyed a lackluster episode to get more insight into Sam’s thinking. The search in the end in the dark corridors and rooms for the killer was well done; the sheriff-woman was ok; the spa owners were wooden, the plot run-of -the-mill. But, I overall enjoy watching Dean and Sam working a case.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 5, 2014 @ 12:22 pm

  88. should be “human contact than Sam.” in second paragraph above.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 5, 2014 @ 12:28 pm

  89. See, I’m not sure we can say Dean doesn’t care if the entire world dies as long as Sam is saved. I’m not getting that impression from him.

    The only reason Dean allowed Gadreel to possess Sam is b/c Cas vouched for him. I’m not saying it was the right thing to do, but let’s put it in context. If Cas had told Dean that “Ezekiel” was a horrible, evil angel like Uriel or Zachariah, I don’t think (a well-written, in character) Dean would have ever agreed to the plan. I also don’t see Dean wiping out entire populations to keep Sam alive. That’s just not how I picture Dean.

    I do believe there are limits to what Dean would do to save Sam, and I felt that way prior to this crappy season. Carver is just making problems where there are none, IMO.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 5, 2014 @ 12:40 pm

  90. Lisa – that’s not how I pictured Dean either, until Sacrifice when he literally let loose the gates of hell so Sam wouldn’t die.he knows the havoc that just one demon, yellow eyes, can cause on a family. But he chose Sam over the rest of the world. It was so, so out of character it just killed the whole way I saw Dean.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 5, 2014 @ 12:58 pm

  91. @90 – I agree. I think the fact that both of them made a decision out of love for the other (Dean didn’t want Sam dead, Sam didn’t want to leave Dean alone) is what is really at the bottom of Sam’s anger. These two have devoted their entire lives to hunting evil, and they just walked away from shutting Hell down forever because of each other. In my opinion, Sam recognizes that and is dealing with it largely by pushing Dean away, so this never happens again. I’m not saying he’s dealing with it in a healthy or even mature way (I’m really not sure it’s immature either, given the gravity of the choice), but that’s what he’s doing.

    Dean, on the other hand, is dealing by not dealing, and sticking with ‘you’re my brother,’ ‘you’re family’ and saying that’s enough.

    Whether you think either method is right or wrong, I don’t think either coping method here is all that out of character. Dean drinks, doesn’t sleep, and represses. Sam says things designed to hurt. Eventually, Dean will probably punch Sam.

    Devil’s Advocate: I can see Sam/the writer/Carver’s point. These two will not live forever and need to figure out a line in the sand. I think that’s what Sam is and has been saying.
    As a fan: None of that means I will be happy if Dean ever does in fact let Sam die.

    Comment by Sarah — February 5, 2014 @ 1:27 pm

  92. I disagree, T1gerlilly. Dean did not open the Gates of Hell on the world and then refuse to do what it takes to close them. The Gates were already open, and demons were already unleashing havoc on the world. I am not sure why it is solely Dean and Sam’s responsibility to close Hell? Why is that huge burden on their shoulders? Why should Sam (or Dean) have to die to do that? And how do we know the Gates would have even be closed?

    To me, it is similar to Castiel stopping short of killing Sam to find Gadreel. Sam shouldn’t have to die so they can find Gadreel who is likely out there killing people. That is not Sam’s fault, nor is it his problem.

    I know Sheri may disagree, but I don’t think the brothers owe their lives to hunting. To me, they will always be heroes for the devotion they have put to this work. They’ve sacrificed a lot, and if they both decide that enough is enough, that is fine w/me. I wouldn’t call them cowards or look down on them b/c they don’t want to sacrifice their last living family member to the hunt. I ascribe to Kripke’s philosophy in that the hunt DOESN’T come before everything.

    I also think it is unfair to criticize Dean for being human. If someone told you that all evil in the world could end if you killed your mother/brother/father/sister/closet living relative, I doubt anyone would quickly agree. Give Dean a break! He’s human and didn’t want to lose his brother. I can’t say I would encourage my sister to complete the trials if I were in Dean’s place.

    And if Sam is so upset that he failed at completing the trials, why doesn’t he just undertake them again? I’m sure Dean wouldn’t protest this time.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 5, 2014 @ 2:11 pm

  93. jace, my impression was that–initially– Gadreel led Dean to believe the habitation would only be brief and temporary. Once he was inside Sam, Gadreel kept stringing Dean along, calling for a little more time and warning Dean that Sam would die if he ejected the angel.

    True, Dean knew Sam would not have wanted to be an angel’s vessel permanently–the way Jimmy is for Castiel–but Dean had no reason to believe that Gadreel wasn’t telling the truth. Castiel himself had vouched for him.

    Dean was gullible. He should have known from his experiences with Castiel that even a friendly angel isn’t to be completely trusted.

    Sam wants to blame somebody for the way Gadreel used his body to kill, so Sam blames Dean. But Sam hasn’t been in Dean’s position–yet. Sam DiD experience his brother’s desperation after Dean went to hell. And so we saw him do exactly what Dean did: he tried to sell his soul to save his brother.

    Maybe because I’m a bi-bro fan, I see Sam and Dean as more alike than different; the Winchesters are two sides of the same coin to paraphrase Kripke. Before the end of the season, Sam may find himself faced with a choice similar to the one Dean was forced to make. My guess is, Sam’s choice will be the right one–the only one he can make–the same kind of choice made by his brother.

    Anyway, from what Sam said, I think what’s really bothering him is deeper than the whole Gadreel thing. Sam doesn’t want Dean taking care of him the way he does. He’s tired of being the baby brother–and, moreso, he’s sick of always failing (at least in his own mind), while Dean is the “hero” who saves him. Sam needs to take care of Dean for a change and solve the big problem of the season without his brother’s help. I hope the writers will give Sam that chance.

    Comment by JT — February 5, 2014 @ 2:12 pm

  94. If Sam would rather be dead- if being Alive and being with his brother is SO horrible- he should go kill himself during the hiatus. He can then have what he wants and quit whining and blaming Dean for saving him.

    I was glad to read Jared’s tweet where he said Sam was a jerk. Because he is.

    Of course the writers are at fault for that but if they are going to continuously make the character bitch about being alive- I hope he kills himself and gets what he wants.

    Comment by SL — February 5, 2014 @ 2:49 pm

  95. @93 My thoughts exactly, JT. Fingers crossed for what you said to happen. Sam needs to save Dean this time so their dynamic gets more balanced. I really think that’s where they are going with the whole Cain’s storyline, but I won’t hold my breath cause I don’t trust these writers.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 5, 2014 @ 3:11 pm

  96. It wasn’t their responsibility Lisa, it was their opportunity. They had chosen to do the trials. They knew what it probably meant – that whomever did them would have to die. Because they refused to stop, most of the people they saved during the series were killed by crowley. They made the choice, judging that it was worth it to close the gates of hell.
    People earlier were shocked that Sam would say they hurt more than they help. But look at what they’ve done. The people they tried to save are dead. They killed tons more instead of exorcising them. They killed a bunch of monsters (including Madison and Amy) that they now would probably let go. And they keep getting good people killed in teh cross-fire (Bobby, Ellen, Jo, Kevin, Ash, etc).
    Exactly what good have they done – besides stopping the Apocalypse that they started …. because of selfish demon deals.
    I get what you’re saying, I do, the debate of what the right thing to do when it’s family versus society has been around since Plato’s day. It’s never easy or clear cut. But most people would say that the right thing to do is usually the one that benefits the most people, even if it feels like a personal betrayal. Take the siblings of the Unabomber, who turned in their brother. Yeah, they set him up for a life in prison, but I’d bet most people think they did the right thing.
    For me, anyway, the reason I like Dean and the Winchesters both is because they always tried to do the (big picture) right thing. They screwed it up, mostly, but it’s not like I can’t relate to that. But that wasn’t the case in sacrifice. They let me down.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 5, 2014 @ 3:22 pm

  97. I liked this episode. The way the drama was developed. The research. The investigation. Dean, Sam. Everything was perfect in my opinion. I enjoyed so much. The brotherly moment, I think Sam has a point. Dean has gone extreme to save Sam more than once and he didn’t do it to make Sam happy but because he can’t get to the idea that he has to live without Sam.

    Comment by LG — February 5, 2014 @ 3:25 pm

  98. I dont think Sam is trying to break the bond between them. I think he’s just trying to say that it is enough. No more extreme decisions that could harm others, especially when he was able to die and in peace with himself.

    Comment by LG — February 5, 2014 @ 3:35 pm

  99. Sorry, LG, but when Sam says, we can be partners or we can be brothers and that you want to keep things strictly professional, Sam is breaking that bond. Maybe that isn’t his intention, but he’s a Stanford man–he should be smart enough to know that he’s doing damage here. I think it’s his intention, because he doesn’t like their bond the way it is, but Sam is giving no clue as to what he does want it to be. In fact, what he’s saying more indicates that he doesn’t want a bond at all. Saying that you don’t want to be Dean’s brother, say he’s hurt more than he’s ever helped, that every sacrifice he’s made is selfish and didn’t hurt him, and that you have no intention of going the distances that Dean does to save him that Dean is going to see that as Sam basically disowning him. I’m not sure how Sam couldn’t recognize that, unless he’s so blinded by his own hurt that he isn’t seeing clearly that he’s doing damage to the bond here, too, just as Dean did with his choices.

    Comment by huh — February 5, 2014 @ 3:57 pm

  100. @ huh – I must be on denial. Im just trying to read in between lines. I don’t think that Sam doesn’t love his brother anymore. I think he is asking for some space and respect.

    Comment by LG — February 5, 2014 @ 4:37 pm

  101. If Sam had asked for space and respect, LG, I would have heartily supported him. Sam definitely deserves that.

    That said, Sam was in complete control of whether he got back in the car with Dean. If he needed space, why did he? I still don’t really understand that–Sam was apparently hunting independently, since he was coming in from New Mexico in the last episode. I can theorize that it’s Sam’s co-dependency coming into play–he’s really furious with Dean, but he can’t bear not to rejoin him when Dean asks. He certainly did seem bitter about the idea that Dean left him (because both Winchesters are nothing if not enormous hypocrites). But then, we’ve seen Sam be able to leave Dean behind without a glance–once again, Dean was the one pushing for their reunion. So I don’t know. But I can’t see Sam asking for space here, because he’s the one who decided to put himself in close quarters with Dean and work with him.

    And again, I think that Sam deserves respect. I’m not sure how heaping contempt on Dean, which seems to me what he’s doing at this point, makes Sam think Dean is going to respect him more. I don’t think he should be apologizing to Dean by any stretch–he has every right to be angry. But when the line he’s drawing in the sand is “I want to be your partner, not your brother”, I really don’t understand why he seemed so surprised that Dean was upset at the beginning because he was “just being honest.” Dean needs to realize that his actions had consequences in his relationship with Sam. At the same time, Sam apparently doesn’t realize that the same holds true to his choices on what he says to his brother.

    For the record, I’m not sure show is really trying to say that Sam doesn’t love Dean anymore. In fact, I’d bet they’re not. But they’re doing a pretty good job of writing Sam to indicate that, with his disowning of Dean and belittling his actions as always selfish and harmful, all for Xeroxed angst. So I can’t say I’m happy about that. Mileage obviously varies.

    Comment by huh — February 5, 2014 @ 4:47 pm

  102. huh, this might sound sarcastic, but family is always family. When Sam said “we can be partners, but brothers”… (not so sure im recalling correctly), in my opinion, he was trying to express his disappointment with Dean’s decision over the all Gadriels situation. I can easily be your partner because we understand each other very well and because I love you so much, but is hard for me to be your brother if that means that you are going to go extreme and disrespect my decision. Im your brother but I need to own my decisions. Some how I feel like you suffocate me. Plase, let me breathe. I need you to respect my decisions in the same way I would respect yours if one day you make the peace with yourself and decided that you are ready to die.
    This is the way I see it. Agree with you in some points, yet disagree in some others.

    Comment by LG — February 5, 2014 @ 5:26 pm

  103. LG, that is why they need to just go their separate ways and call it a day.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 5, 2014 @ 5:33 pm

  104. What I mean is if Sam just wants to be partners and not brothers . . . . . . . then Sam should just go off and do his own thing. Dean will have to accept that Sam doesn’t want him in Sam’s life and move on.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 5, 2014 @ 5:39 pm

  105. LG—I think the problem is that there seems to be a lot of rationalizing and theorizing about what Sam was trying to say, but at the end of the day, what Sam said is what he said. How does implying that Dean isn’t his brother anymore indicate that he loves him? It doesn’t to me. I think Sam expressed very well that he was disappointed with Dean’s decision without throwing that line in. I think it isn’t logical for Sam to believe that Dean is going to be able to separate being partners with Sam from being brothers with Sam—I don’t think Sam can do it, either, frankly. Sam didn’t say anything about owning his own decisions or please let me breathe. And honestly, after Sam told Dean that all of his sacrifices were done when they couldn’t cause him hurt and his brotherly actions are selfish, I don’t see that Sam respects Dean any more than he perceives Dean respects him. I like your theorizing better, don’t get me wrong—I just don’t see much of what you’re saying in Sam’s words/actions. But we can agree to disagree, and that’s fine. Perspectives vary.

    Lisa1—Honestly, that’s the way it seems to me, too. At this point, I can’t see why Sam and Dean are even trying to make this partner arrangement work. They need to separate. If Sam sees Dean as nothing more than a selfish person who only makes sacrifices that don’t hurt him, then he shouldn’t be around him. Despite Sam’s insistence that Dean being poison wasn’t the problem, it sure seems like he believes that now. Dean needs to understand what he did was wrong, but yeah, he also needs to understand that Sam just doesn’t want him in his life the way Dean wants Sam and seek out a more balanced relationship elsewhere. It would be better for Sam and healthier for Dean at this point.

    Comment by huh — February 5, 2014 @ 5:54 pm

  106. Huh – I am in complete agreement w/you.

    As most know, I love both brothers and am a diehard brother fan, but Carver has destroyed the brother bond. I will always think fondly of it during Seasons 1-7, but it’s not the same w/Carver at the helm.

    So many people keep coming up w/great interpretations of Sam’s dialogue, but I keep going back to, “But that’s not what Sam said.” If Sam had said half of what people have written, I wouldn’t have had a problem, but the writers gave him dialogue where he came off really insensitive and cold. There’s no denying that. I mean even Jared called Sam a “jerk.”

    I don’t hate Sam, but I certainly don’t care for the way he’s being written. I also see no reason for the brothers to be together any longer. They really need to go their separate ways.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 5, 2014 @ 7:11 pm

  107. LG, believe me, I’ve tried to think of a thousand angles and interpretations to justify somehow what Sam said to mean that which is believable, and what we’d like the Sam we know, to mean. We agree that he has a right to be angry, but the words he used were cruel, and however one tries to twist them, and csnt really be taken to mean much else than what he said. Trust mr, I’m as keen as you for it to not be what it is.

    I DO believe its super crappy writing, simply for the sake of drama, but unfortunately they had him say those things to Dean for their agenda.

    To me, this agenda seems to be one of 2 things:
    1. Setting up for Dean to realize finally what Carver’s interpretation of their relationship should be. Or
    2, Setting up for Sam to realize that, when the chips are down, he too would make the same kind of choice. This could be by using the mark of Cain angle.- Sam saving Dean.

    I cannot tell what Carver is aiming for. I still desperately hope it’s the latter, but the writers dont seem to realize the damage they’re doing by this kind of writing and relationship-destroying dialogue. Some things are not meant to be said just for drama, as they cannot be taken back.

    Comment by Tammy — February 5, 2014 @ 7:17 pm

  108. Lisa, Sam said, it’s worth the crappiness (being together)

    God knows how that fits with everything he said. But apparently, that’s why they’re still together.

    They’ve really ruined the show, havent they?

    Comment by Tammy — February 5, 2014 @ 7:22 pm

  109. Actually Sam said (when we work together) “we split the crappiness.” Neither of them want to be alone doing this job.

    Comment by jace — February 5, 2014 @ 7:33 pm

  110. :( that was the ONE line which gave me hope. So I didn’t hear that right. Oh well.

    Comment by Tammy — February 5, 2014 @ 7:40 pm

  111. I agree, Lisa; I don’t like the way Sam is being written, but it could be something’s going on with him we don’t know about yet. (In fact, Jared might not know either; I understand that writers/show runners sometimes keep their plans for a character secret, so the actor’s performance won’t be affected.)

    Anyway, I get the sense the Winchesters are headed down a dark road. The last two episodes have dealt with families of monsters–one or more of whom have had to be eliminated for giving into their monstrous inclinations.

    In the last episode, Sam tried to convince Dean not to kill the spa owner by comparing her situation to his when he was a “monster” (i.e. possessed by Gadreel). Of course, there’s nothing new there; Sam has always thought of himself as a monster.

    Now, it’s likely Dean will become a monster himself. Once he gets the jawbone from Crowley, presumably he’ll have the power to do the same kinds of things Cain did–including killing at will and creating an army of demons. If Cain is any example, with that power will come evil, so Dean may turn “demonic,” just as the First Murderer did.

    Sam may have to decide whether to kill his brother to save innocent lives and, perhaps, save Dean’s soul in the process. One “monster” Winchester will face off against the other–Cain vs. Abel. Of course, I don’t think Sam will kill Dean or the reverse. Like Cain who gave up killing for the sake of someone he loved, Dean may stop killing for the sake of Sam.

    Kripke always maintained that this show is primarily about the importance of family. I hope Carver doesn’t forget that. He shouldn’t; he gave us two of SN’s very best episodes about the love between the brothers.

    Comment by JT — February 5, 2014 @ 7:43 pm

  112. I cried myself to sleep last night after this episode. As a bi-brother fan, I am not happy. All I want right now is a bromance ending. Give me that. There are three bromance endings: 1. Blaze of Glory – Butch and Sundance – I think we could have had this in Season 5, but it’s gone now; 2. Keep on Keeping On – the way most procedurals end – they’ll keep on doing the job, but it just won’t be filmed; 3. Riding Off into the Sunset (House & Wilson); 4. Letting Go (letting Shawn have his life in Nip/Tuck). I don’t express an opinion on which I want but I want one. I want a good, bi-brother ending that respects the first three years of the show.

    Comment by RS — February 5, 2014 @ 8:00 pm

  113. @80 T1gerlily. Unfortunately, I’ve seen many posts where those two are put together. How toxic Sam and Dean are and then right after talking about how wonderful Cas could be for Dean… And hey in a way I can’t blame them because when Dean says he has never and still doesn’t put anyone before Sam with the full knowledge that Sam is thinking of Cas, it does put a damper on Dean’s relationship with Cas. However, I don’t like how some seem to try to come off as benevolent yet if Dean did or said even half the stuff to Cas that he does to Sam they would be over the moon.

    Comment by ~ San ~ — February 5, 2014 @ 8:08 pm

  114. F.U. Sam!! Was it selfish when dean gave up his chance of a happy childhood to take care of you? Was it selfish when he Told you that “he may not be able to carry the weight of the trials, but he could carry you”? Was it selfish when he told you about Hell & you used it as an excuse to call him “weak” continue your “demon Blood drug habit? Were You not selfish in “Mystery Spot’, when you begged the Trickster to bring Dean back. Knowing he would be dragged to Hell in a matter of months. Or when you were willing to turn Dean into a “Frankenstein/like” creature. Was that not selfish? Your brother vanished for months 9into Purgatory), not that you knew or cared what happened. YOU LEFT KEVIN TRAN IN THE WIND FOR MONTHS! And turned off every phone so he could not contact you! You wanted to kill Benny just for being a friend to Dean. Sam need a One way ticket to “Belize”.

    Comment by Laura Baena — February 5, 2014 @ 8:34 pm

  115. @81 & 107, Tammy. I’m all for the show studying these characters. But instead of keeping it complicated yet like you said, beloved, I fear they will want to really alter the relationship. It feels like they have already made their own versions by pushing things so far starting in season 8. So I think it’ll be option 1 even though I’m sure Sam will save Dean.

    Comment by ~ San ~ — February 5, 2014 @ 8:35 pm

  116. Dean said he’d do it again in a really defiant way. Since Sam is coming from a completely different angle I can’t blame him for his reaction. Also I think Sam feels so much guilt about his part in all of it, not finishing something that could have had long-lasting good as far as he knows or at least not dying when it would have been natural. When he is feeling like that, I get it if he can’t bear to hear that there is an upside and it’s just him being alive so he and Dean can be a team.

    The part about how Sam would not do the same thing to Dean that Dean did to Sam is very understandable since it was about possession. In every culture, there are possession stories. People are terrified of losing themselves to mental illness etc. then how about literally having a living entity inside of you that can control your mind. Sam felt that he turned into a monster which is one of the worst things that could happpen to Sam and the real Dean knows that.

    They’ll have to address Sam’s mental state because I feel like he is again slipping into suicidal thoughts. Sure his life does not have inherently bigger value than the lives that could have been saved if Gadreel had not possessed him and Crowley wasn’t let out but as of now it seems like Sam feels his life has little value and he needs to redeem himself to the point of dying.

    Comment by ~ San ~ — February 5, 2014 @ 8:39 pm

  117. Ok. Well. A lot of you are saying really extreme things about Sam and feel that those of us who are less upset with him aren’t paying attention to what he’s actually saying. So here’s the transcript of the relevant scene from the superwiki:
    DEAN
    Yeah. Hey.

    SAM
    Yeah?

    DEAN
    About what you said the other day.

    SAM [with an "I knew it" face]
    I thought it didn’t bother you.

    DEAN [softly]
    You know, Sam, I saved your hide back there. And I saved your hide at that church… And the hospital. I may not think things all the way through. Okay? But what I do, I do because it’s the right thing. I’d do it again.

    SAM
    And that… is the problem. You think you’re my savior, my brother, the hero. You swoop in, and even when you mess up, you think what you’re doing is worth it because you’ve convinced yourself you’re doing more good than bad… But you’re not.
    [DEAN's blank eyes stare at him]
    I mean, Kevin’s dead, Crowley’s in the wind. We’re no closer to beating this angel thing. Please tell me, what is the upside of me being alive?

    DEAN [shocked]
    You kidding me? You and me — fighting the good fight together.

    SAM [sighing in frustration almost leaves but then decides to explain. He come into the kitchen and sits down across from DEAN, who draws back unconsciously]
    Okay. Just once, be honest with me. You didn’t save me for me. You did it for you.

    DEAN [totally confused]
    What are you talkin’ about?

    SAM
    I was ready to die. I was ready. I should have died, but you… You didn’t want to be alone, and that’s what all this boils down to. You can’t stand the thought of being alone.

    DEAN [drawing back and standing up]
    All right.

    SAM
    I’ll give you this much. You are certainly willing to do the sacrificing as long as you’re not the one being hurt.

    DEAN
    All right, you want to be honest? If the situation were reversed and I was dying, you’d do the same thing.

    SAM [very softly]
    No, Dean. I wouldn’t.
    [He looks up and meets DEAN's shocked eyes.]
    Same circumstances…I wouldn’t. I’m gonna get to bed.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 5, 2014 @ 8:47 pm

  118. Basically Dean says he was right , full stop, no apologies for having Sam be possessed and lying to him. Sam then points out that what he did wasn’t about Sam, or what he wanted and it wasn’t about doing the right thing. He makes the point that it can’t be justified as ‘the right thing’ because of all the negative outcomes besides him living. And he again makes the point that what he did wasn’t really about Sam either. It was Dean acting out of his own fears and needs. Basically he’s trying to shake Dean out of his self-righteousness.
    Frankly, if someone said – ‘I tricked you into getting possessed against your will – I was right – I would do it again – and you’d do the same thing….” I don’t think I’d be as nice as Sam. I wouldn’t just say “no, under the same circumstances, I wouldn’t “.
    Really gently. You guys are being way too hard on Sam.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 5, 2014 @ 8:58 pm

  119. Sorry tigerlilly, I can’t see Sam’s words as being anything but unnecessarily cruel and cutting. He knew exactly where to hit and twist the knife where it would hurt the most. There were many other ways to get his point across without breaking his brother.

    Dean might not have made the right decision from Sam’s point of view, agreed. But he surely doesn’t deserve THIS.

    Comment by Tammy — February 5, 2014 @ 11:02 pm

  120. In memory of the Sam I knew and loved:
    “You save my life over and over — you sacrifice everything for me. Don’t you think I’d do the same for you? You’re my big brother – there’s nothing I wouldn’t do for you.”
    - Sam to Dean

    Comment by Tammy — February 5, 2014 @ 11:05 pm

  121. Sam really should ask Dean that if he (Dean) were dead, would he want Sam to make a deal to bring him back. Would he want Sam to put an unknown angel and a demon in him to keep him alive, regardless of the consequences or if he wants Sam to override Dean’s explicitly stated requests, requests he had tattooed on his chest, in order to bring him back.

    Dean’s answer would be very, very interesting!

    Comment by Maedbh — February 5, 2014 @ 11:23 pm

  122. Damn I bet that mark dean is harbouring is gonna resolve the whole mess between the brothers. Sam is gonna save Dean and then they’re gonna be at the start all over again. REMEMBER, TWO MONTHS FROM NOW. I’M GONNA BE RIGHT.

    Comment by DAMN — February 6, 2014 @ 12:07 am

  123. It seems that Sam feels like Dean wasn’t thinking of him and putting him first but instead wanted Sam just so he would have someone. No wonder Sam feels infuriated that Dean maintains he would do it all again. So somehow Sam needs to come to the realization that he really does mean the world to Dean. I think it just comes down to Sam and Dean having different definitions on what constitutes unconditional love.

    Comment by ~ San ~ — February 6, 2014 @ 4:07 am

  124. @121 Maedbh. I feel like in Dean’s mind there are different rules for him than there is for Sam. It probably stems from not seeing much value in himself and being preoccupied with having to save Sam. If Sam made a deal for Dean, it would crush Dean because he does not see it being worth it but he’ll do the same to Sam because he thinks that is worth it. However, he is being myopic.

    Comment by ~ San ~ — February 6, 2014 @ 4:22 am

  125. Ok, first off, for all you people that think some are being too hard on Sam: If Sam had only addressed the Gadreel situation, something he had EVERY right to be pissed about, I doubt too many could fault him. Dean was wrong, plain and simple. He had NO right to take Sam’s choice away.
    But Sam went beyond that into unnecessarily hurtful territory, and a couple of things he said were outright lies i.e. “You don’t mind sacrificing as long as you’re not the one being hurt”. HELLO! FORTY F–KING YEARS BEING TORTURED ON MEATHOOKS!How the hell is that NOT being hurt?
    Selfish? Well yes of course, giving up you’re ENTIRE childhood, adolescence, and well LIFE, to make sure another is protected, alive, and doesn’t get taken by the dark forces is pretty damn selfish, and certainly, Dean wasn’t hurt by the sacrifice of denying himself ANYTHING that would have made HIM happy. Dean’s not last on the list, he ain’t even ON the list of his own priorities.
    But yes, you’re right Sam,my bad, NONE of this has ever hurt Dean, that totally selfish, bastard prick.
    Which leads me to ask, why the hell is Dean even staying with Sam right now?
    I disagree now more than ever with those who are certain Dean will only go a bit dark, not turn evil. I think he will now for sure. Why not? He was only living for a brother he thought loved and appreciated him,it seems he was clearly wrong about that, so why not give up and join the darkside?

    Comment by roxi — February 6, 2014 @ 4:34 am

  126. @ Damn, you’re probably right.

    @San, I would agree. I also think Sam feels the same way toward Dean making deals.

    I’ve seen a lot of poster quoting JP’s twitter comment about Sam being “a real jerk.” I was thinking about that…I wouldn’t put too much stock in that. JP *likes* the fighting between Sam and Dean, so he was probably just teasing his followers with that comment.

    Comment by G-dawg — February 6, 2014 @ 4:36 am

  127. t1gerlilly, thanks so much for that dialogue; it really helps to see it in print.

    Sam doesn’t have too many defendants right now, but it was Dean who took off and said (repeatedly) that he didn’t want to hunt with Sam anymore. Of course, Dean explained that people around him die, but I’m sure Sam was hurt. After all, Dean’s words and actions suggested that HE was the protector–that HE had to take care of Sam (and everyone else). Is this the kind of message one experienced cop sends to his equally experienced partner? And Dean has still not gotten past the point where he orders Sam around (note the number of times he did that in the last episode). Sam has a right to demand more respect and a lot more trust than he gets from Dean.

    RS, I think things will work out fine between the bros. But I get the sense from your post that you believe the series will end this season. Has there been some word put out about that?

    Comment by JT — February 6, 2014 @ 5:10 am

  128. @127- Dean DOES need to stop barking orders at Sam, and to treat him as an equal in hunting. But that has nothing to do with some of the hurtful, and I fell false, accusations Sam handed out in this episode.
    The Gadreel possession and Dean’s lies WERE very wrong, whether or not Dean’s reasons were, to him anyway, loving ones. Sam could have just addressed that situation, as he had absolutely EVERY right to be angry and resentful about that.
    The other comments though, only served to hurt Dean as much as possible. I’m sorry, but I don’t understand why the writers felt it necessary to go there.
    The two men need to be apart for a while.
    Maybe RS sees the writing on the wall. Jeremy Carver and his subpar writing team seem hellbent on destroying everything that drew, if not all then certainly most, SPN fans to the show. I can’t see longtime diehard fans, who are so letdown by the story, writing, and ruined Winchester relationship right now, sticking around much longer hence, if things don’t soon start turning around, fans will lose interest and stop watching. Ratings eventually will fall, and SPN will be cancelled. I hope not, as I really want to see a satisfying ending to the story.

    Comment by roxi — February 6, 2014 @ 5:34 am

  129. Thank you t1gerlilly, for the transcript; is that from a website somewhere?

    The people who are getting upset with how Sam worded things must be the nicest fighters in the world. Dean knew Sam would rather die than be possessed. He said that to Gadreel. He’s saying now, to Sam’s face, ‘I don’t care what you wanted, I’d do it again.’ He already absorbed all guilt for everything when he first left Sam, which is its own set of problems and just further shows how Dean feels he’s the only one who has the responsibility to fix things and take care of things. He has to atone for Gadreel being on his mission, Crowley being loose, and Kevin being dead. And Sam can apparently just be happy to be alive, even though his brother, who knows him best and loves him so much, knew he wouldn’t have wanted “to be saved like that.” (Dean’s words from Lazarus Rising when he thought Sam had sold his soul.)

    In hindsight and calm, yeah, there’s nicer ways to say what Sam said. But Sam can’t really be expected to be rational and calm. Especially when Dean just said ‘I’d do it again.’ Sam fights with his words, and an inbred gnat would know to go after Dean and family bonds if you want to have an impact. Frankly, Dean did the same thing by still refusing to apologize at all for anything and saying he’d do it all over again. That blatant refusal to admit Sam’s views are legitmate and he’s an equal here is not a new thing. Sam said in Fallen Idols it was a reason he went off with Ruby.

    Also, if people aren’t allowed to interpret Sam’s words as meaning more than what he explicitly said, that cuts both ways. Sam never said he hated Dean or anything similar. That seems really stupid to act like he did. I think most posters have agreed they get what Sam meant in spite of the exact words he used, so I’m not sure why people are still hammering on it. Like I said to start, that’s what happens when you fight and you’re upset. Words can sometimes come out jumbled and mean. Just because Sam isn’t screaming and throwing things doesn’t mean he’s not mad.

    Comment by Sarah — February 6, 2014 @ 6:08 am

  130. Dean’s real problem is making Sam his only and entire reason for living.
    But then, if he stopped doing that, and began to think of HIS life, and something that would make HIM happy outside of Sam, I’m sure he’d STILL be considered selfish.
    And then there’s this laughable idea SPN has that Dean’s only reasons for saving Sam are because he doesn’t want to be alone. Seriously. We are talking about a drop dead gorgeous man with charm, good sense of humor, and an ability to make friends. If he doesn’t want to be alone, you can’t tell me there wouldn’t be a huge choice of women (or men for that matter) who would be only to happy to keep him company. He doesn’t need Sam just so that he won’t be alone. SPN wants to paint Dean as lonely,pathetic, and desperate for companionship. As a Dean fan, that ticks me off.

    Comment by roxi — February 6, 2014 @ 6:51 am

  131. On a more positive note, I am really liking Jensen’s five o clock shadow. I am thinking the idea is that Dean really doesn’t care about himself at all anymore, so he’s not bothering with shaving. I really hope this means we’ll see his hair grow a little longer.

    Comment by roxi — February 6, 2014 @ 8:11 am

  132. T1gerlilly, several things bother me about that speech.

    First, Sam’s sarcastic “I thought that didn’t bother you” comment – is he serious? He told Dean that he didn’t want to be brothers with him. He knows how wrecked Dean must feel about that so why even make that statement? I don’t care that Dean lied earlier. Of course he did. He was crushed and didn’t understand what Sam meant, and Sam still hasn’t offered any clarity.

    Second, the next part of Sam’s comment starts off badly and ends worse with Sam saying Dean does more harm than good. Is that a blanket statement Sam is making? On a whole, Dean has done more harm in his life than good? Is that what Sam believes or is he only referencing himself? If it’s the latter, then Sam needed to speak in more specific terms. Plus, it was a really harsh way for Sam to make a point.

    And the reason I keep picking on Sam’s language is b/c I assume Sam wants Dean to understand his POV and wants to bridge the gap btw them. If that’s the case then how he speaks to Dean will play a large role in whether Dean is understanding his issues.

    I would rather the writers get to the point. What is Sam trying to say? That his life isn’t more important than others? That this love Dean has for him gets people killed? Why not say: “Dean, don’t you get it? Each time we’ve tried to save each other, we end up causing more harm than good. Mom made that deal for dad, and that brought Yellow Eyes into our lives. You made that deal for me and got dragged to Hell. I hooked up with a demon to try to get revenge for your death. And now this? This has to stop.” To me, this makes more sense because Sam is not Mr. Innocent here. He’s screwed up in this area too. It’s not just Dean.

    Third, Sam assigns a very simplistic, selfish motive to Dean’s actions. He says Dean just doesn’t want to be alone. He believes that’s the ONLY reason Dean saved him. While, I think that was a factor in Dean’s decisionmaking, it was NOT the only factor. Dean also saved Sam for Sam. Dean loves Sam. The last thing Dean knows is Sam stopped the trials to live. As far as Dean knew, Sam wanted to live so he made it happen. Again, I’m not saying it was the right thing to do, but I believe it wasn’t completely selfish.

    Another issue I have with these conversations is it’s not clear to me what everyone knows. Sam keeps saying he was willing and ready to die but how was Dean supposed to know that? Does Sam even know that Gad let Dean inside his mind? Unless they had an off-screen conversation, Sam does NOT know that. As far as Sam knows, Dean only recently learned of his burning desire to die. And we saw what Dean saw, but how did he interpret it? I’ve always wondered this. Dean did question what Sam was doing so maybe he wasn’t sure if Sam was going with Death because he wanted to die or b/c he thought death was the inevitable. They’ve never actually discussed it. IMO, Dean acted on instinct and based on their last conversation.

    Fourth, Sam’s comment about Dean willing to sacrifice as long as he’s not the one bring hurt needs more explanation. What is Sam talking about? Kevin’s death has hurt Dean. Dean didn’t agree to the plan knowing Kevin or anyone would die. I don’t get Sam’s point. What is he trying to say here?

    And, finally, we have Sam saying he wouldn’t save Dean. Now I know Sam is talking about a Gadreel type situation, but I honestly didn’t hear that part the first time. It wasn’t until people posted the transcripts that I saw that Sam was referencing what happened to him. Why is that important? It’s important b/c I’m sure Dean didn’t hear that either. He just heard Sam say he wouldn’t save him. That was probably the only thing that Dean zeroed in on. Sam could have said: “Would I let an unknown entity possess your body to keep you alive? No, Dean. I wouldn’t do that to you.” That drives home Sam’s point better than: “Same circumstances. Nope” and leaves no confusion.

    Carver is changing the heart of the show. He’s changing lessons that we learned a long time ago. In S1, Sam had the chance to kill the YED when it was possessing John but he decided to not do that because killing the YED was not worth John’s life. I agreed with his decision. Sam has long since complained that John put the job above family. Last year, Sam claimed the job had killed his entire family, and he didn’t seem happy about that. I’m betting that the Sam of last year would have preferred Dean to “not die” killing Dick rather than die. Sam took on the trials so Dean wouldn’t die but now, he’s all like the mission/hunt is more important than family. I don’t share that view.

    I cannot invest in a pair of brothers who only care about the hunt. I don’t want to see brothers who wouldn’t go to the extreme for the other. I don’t want to see a Sam that would encourage Dean to kill and/or sacrifice himself for a hunt/mission. That is NOT the Supernstural I have come to love and enjoy. Sam’s anger has not been restricted to the current situation, but it has been broadened to encompass the entire show and what it has meant for 7 years. I’m not happy with that at l!

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 6, 2014 @ 8:59 am

  133. The comments about people being the nicest fighters in an argument made me laugh. Of course you go for the jugular in an argument. And later think about what you said. I am reminded of some the crap the guys have said to each other over the years.

    You’re a monster
    If I didn’t know you I’d want to hunt you
    You’re too wea k
    You’re dad’s good little soldier
    Benny’s been a better brother than you’ve ever been
    Lucifer’s going to wear you to the prom. It’s just a matter of time.
    You let me rot for a girl

    Not to mention the various punches and running off mad and the I forgive yous but not reallys.

    So these guys fight rough? Hurtful, yes but not new.

    Comment by ohfandom — February 6, 2014 @ 9:03 am

  134. I think JC is going back to his mature Sam who didn’t look for Dean in S8, probably to justify what was considered by the majority of fans to be something Sam would never do, however Sam as he is now would it seem make the same choice. I have read dozens of reviews of that season where the reviewers understood Sam’s reasoning, but I just could never see it. I have been comforting myself by starting at the beginning again and am at the end of S2, you can really see why it built up such a loyal fan base. The two brothers argue, snipe at each other, save each other and the relationship is believable set in the supernatural world they inhabit. Sam leaving in Scarecrow was understandable and them getting together again was believable. By the way Dean did say he understood that by his actions he had taken something from Sam, so he has acknowledged in part that he knows how hurt Sam must be. I was expecting Sam to be very upset at Dean’s actions and that there were going to be, and should be, repercussions. What I did not expect was Sam to behave more like a spiteful teenager. I am probably being a bit harsh with that but I am pretty upset at this stage of the series now. I guess that if they do go down the route of Dean needing saving from the mark of Cain in some way that we will be able to view the series as a whole in a more positive light, but as with S8, a lot of which I can’t re-watch, I don’t think I will be re-watching much of S9 again now. I wish I could be more understanding of why Sam would (a man in his mid 30’s) throw his brother under a bus by saying the worst things he could to him, it just makes Sam mean and small minded IMO and I love Sam and I don’t want to be feeling like that about him. People in other comments have given much better ways of saying how hurt and upset he is, which might have got a better response from Dean, who is burying his head in the sand now it seems. Apart from the beginning and the end though it was a watchable episode so guess I will just have to fast forward those bits if I want to watch again.

    Comment by Icarus — February 6, 2014 @ 9:25 am

  135. No, I don’t believe this is the last season. The JJs are signed on for next year and the ratings are fantastic (for the CW) believe it or not. I know the casual viewer is not usually represented on the posts, but NOBODY seems happy right now. I could see next season being the last (and perhaps that is the plan). I just want a plan out there. In Kripke I trusted. I keep having to remind myself that Carver wrote two of my favorite episodes – Mystery Spot and A Very SPN Christmas.

    Comment by RS — February 6, 2014 @ 9:55 am

  136. @135. That’s what I tell myself too, as I’m depressed beyond words at the turn the series has taken, and Sams spiteful words. I tell myself that the guy who wrote those two episodes HAS to understand he brothers.

    Show, PLEASE don’t destroy Sam and Dean’s relationship. Its breaking our collective hearts. Most of them anyway.

    Comment by Tammy — February 6, 2014 @ 10:17 am

  137. Jensen and Jared are signed on through season 10. Afterwards, one or both may choose to not return.

    That does not, however, mean Supernatural will end. As we have seen in the case of “Two and a Half Men” and “X-files,” the network may keep the show alive despite one of the lead actors moving on.

    So long as the network and studio make money, they’ll keep the show going.

    Comment by JJA — February 6, 2014 @ 10:21 am

  138. I still think that this episode’s ending gives us a first glimpse into how the “mark of Cain” is having an effect on Dean and those around him. Remember Cain told Dean there would be consequences to wearing the mark, but we never heard what those consequences were. Perhaps one is losing the people closest to you. Cain was living by himself….remember how he said “visitors once a century were enough?” Maybe having the mark causes people to abhor the wearer. Maybe that’s what made Same say such cruel things to Dean. At least, that’s what I’m hoping.
    Please, writers, don’t leave us hanging until the last half hour of the final episode of the season.

    Comment by SoCal — February 6, 2014 @ 10:52 am

  139. @137 No, Supernatural will end if one of the two leads quits, it’s not like the shows you mentioned. That’s why they are making the spin-off, because they wanna keep making profit, but they know that the brothers and their relationship is pretty much the whole show. At least the most important part, like has been said several times by Kripke, Ackles, Padalecki, Gamble, Singer…

    The second reason is that if one the Js wants to quit, the other would follow right after him. They have a very close friendship (best friends, Jensen’s words)and they are very invested in the characters, so I highly doubt one will continue without the other.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 6, 2014 @ 11:42 am

  140. Lisa – earlier in the episode Sam asks twice if Dean is ok or if he is bothered by what he said and Dean says no. So Sam was using sarcasm when he said ‘I thought that didn’t bother you. (Because Dean said it didn’t. Twice) Just the same way Dean used sarcasm when he kept referencing ‘honesty’.
    Then after Dean basically says he did the right thing and would do it again Sam says – you think you’re a hero and even if you mess up you still think you did the right thing because you think you’re doing more good than bad. ( I.e. You don’t examine your actions and learn from them) and the he gives an example, where keeping hi alive (the good that Dean did) doesn’t outweigh the bad that he did – Kevin and Crowley.
    Then he says that the decision wasn’t about what was the right thing for me – I was ready to die. He says – be honest – it was because you couldn’t bear to be alone. And Dean says ‘all right’, which is him pretty much admitting that Sam was right.
    I thought that his comment about Dean not being willing to sacrifice was clearly about Dean letting other people die but not Sam, since that’s the only case where he’d be impacted. It was specific to the current situation. But I’ll admit it’s open to interpretation. After all, I’ve argued before that you can make that case about Dean – that he’s kept Sam hunting and with him when it would clearly be better for Sam (not to mention what Sam wants) for him to let him go.
    Dean and Sam sometimes remind me of lifeguard training where they tell you to be careful, because someone who’s desperate and panicking can pull you under. Sam has had Dean clutching on to him for most of his life. It wouldn’t surprise if he felt like he was drowning.
    Er. That probably didn’t make you feel better, which is what I wanted to do by posting the transcript. I don’t think Dean was destroyed by what Sam said. He’s tough and too smart not to pick up what Sam is laying down. In a way, even though we’re having some trouble figuring out what Sam is saying – I don’t think Dean is. They get each other – and I think he was up all night thinking…and that he still has some thinking to do. Everybody makes mistakes and I don’t think it will kill Dean to admit he isn’t always right. Or that he could stand to do things differently. It would be refreshing to see him take responsibility for what IS his responsibility and not for things he can’t control. Regrets and not guilt, if you see what I mean.
    Anyway, You really do sound miserable and I hate that. I hope this is just the ‘it gets worse before it gets better ‘ part of the story and that at the end the brothers come thru better than ever.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 6, 2014 @ 12:57 pm

  141. @ #138 I don’t think the mark of cain has anything to do with how sam feelings. I think he was pissed at the fact that dean tricked him into saying yes to an angel. and that is what fueled him to finally say what he said. i think the past is proof that sam wouldn’t have the sam for dean. Afterall dude didn’t even look for dean while dean was in purgatory.

    Be it that dean loves sam more than sam loves dean or that dean just doesn’t want to do it alone, i don’t think sam would have done the same for dean. I can’t believe dean thought otherwise.

    Am i concerned that their bond doesn’t seem as strong today as it did through season 1-5, suire. but i still hope that the story/show will end with armageddon which to me means their bond has to be a bit weakend so, less thire love for each other ruin yet another perfectly fine battle.

    Comment by WhoDat — February 6, 2014 @ 12:58 pm

  142. @ 131 – I like Dean’s facial as well as Sam’s though it isn’t coming in as strong. I thought the reason why they had facial hair is because all of the men in hollywood was letting their facial hair grow out for prostate cancer awareness. Either reason they both wear it well.

    As for Dean tricking Sam well I can say is that death doesn’t bother the dead it only bothers the living who are left behind to moron the passing of the love one that they have lost. Granted in the SPN world their is the BS of heaven and hell which I don’t believe in. But I think it is obvious based on Death himself coming to claim Sam and praising what he has done with his time on Earth that Sam was bound for heaven. A life time of your happiest memories which Sam seemed to enjoy in “The Dark Side of the Moon.” episode; with the exception of the discomfort of the horny tween grabbing at him under the dinner table.
    So yes I do think Dean did it for himself.

    Comment by SPNFan — February 6, 2014 @ 1:13 pm

  143. @-roxi “On a more positive note, I am really liking Jensen’s five o clock shadow. I am thinking the idea is that Dean really doesn’t care about himself at all anymore, so he’s not bothering with shaving. I really hope this means we’ll see his hair grow a little longer.”

    -Really? ‘Cause I spent all last episode thinking, “Jeez, they look ridiculous. They need to shave if they want to pass as Feds.” :)

    Comment by G-dawg — February 6, 2014 @ 2:55 pm

  144. @142- So after watching the entire series, you really think EVERYTHING Sure he couldn’t stand the pain of losing Sam,but EVERYTHING?
    Giving up his childhood? Passing up the opportunity to get away from the hunting life and a chance at normal happiness, including girlfriends, school dances, and having his own auto body shop? Being tortured on meat hooks in Hell for 40 years? Forgetting ANY chance to find a loving wife and have his own family?
    That’s definitely NOT the SPN I’ve watched.
    A reminder: When Dean wanted to do the trials, he was sure he would die doing them. His only thought was that Sam would then be able to leave hunting for good and have a good life. Dean would have been dead. He wouldn’t have been around to suffer Sam’s loss. Yet he was still ready and willing to die so that Sam could have that normal life. It was his ONLY dream, not a damned thing for himself.

    Comment by roxi — February 6, 2014 @ 5:20 pm

  145. 144- I meant to say ‘you still think EVERYTHING Dean ever did for only for himself?”

    Comment by roxi — February 6, 2014 @ 5:21 pm

  146. @ #142: I agree with Sam, that his life isn’t worth anything. If Sam thinks he will be happy in Heaven, he can use all his missing agency and go there. He knows how to do that.

    If Sam thinks Dean is so selfish and has done nothing but made his life miserable, he can always leave. That is what a grown up would do — remove themselves from a bad situation, walk away from people who cause you unhappiness. When you ‘have a heart’ for monsters, but stay just to throw emotional bombs at your brother, that is the act of an selfish adolescent.

    I am curious, though, and have a question for all posters here. Do you like the Sam and Dean story we are getting this season?

    Comment by Sheri — February 6, 2014 @ 5:36 pm

  147. @140. Tigerlilly, upon reflection (as damn, its not even letting me sleep. Maybe we can sue the writers for extreme emotional distress? :) ), I am now inclined to agree with your interpretation of their dialogue. I don’t know about Lisa, but you did make me feel better.

    I rewatched the scene yet again, and I still believe it was VERY crappy writing and could have been a hundred times better written, BUT the intention is not as bad as it seems.

    So thanks, tigerlilly, for giving another perspective, very clearly, line by line. It helped. I really hope the upcoming episodes will prove you right.

    Comment by Tammy — February 6, 2014 @ 7:20 pm

  148. @Roxi (144) and @Sheri (146) – I agree w/you both.

    And Roxi, that was a really good point about Dean’s reasons for doing the trials. Dean had no reason beyond wanting Sam to have a good life. That is really all Dean has cared about for the majority of his life, and it’s shocking that under Carver, Sam has no appreciation for that and no understanding of his brother. I’m not saying Sam needs to give up his life for Dean, but I want Dean to recognize that this New Sam appreciates nothing Dean has done for him so Dean need to get some new priorities in his life. Sam should no longer be a priority for Dean. Dean certainly isn’t one for Sam.

    I still can’t believe how much Carver has trashed the brothers. He’s ruined the whole foundation of the show and doesn’t even realize it.

    ——

    @ Sheri – I hate the Sam/Dean story this year. I hated last year’s story. I hate this year’s story. I simply hate Carver’s version of Supernatural.

    I’m just not interested in the Supernatural Carver is creating. It is NOT the Supernatural I came to love. What was unique and special about our show was the relationship btw Sam and Dean, but since Carver has destroyed that relationship, Supernatural will lost that special something it had. Oh well. All good things come to an end.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 6, 2014 @ 7:27 pm

  149. @Tammy and @T1gerlilly – I have not changed my mind about the dialogue. I hated it. I hated it for all the reasons I already set forth, but, Tammy, I am happy you now have a positive view on it.

    I’d rather be enjoying what used to be my favorite show instead of pretty much hating it and wondering if I should just stop watching but, what are you going to do? It is what it is.

    IMO, Carver has broken the relationship beyond repair. I don’t feel he has a good handle on the characters, the brothers’ relationship, or the show, in general. I pretty much hate the new Sam he’s created, so I’m not looking forward to the new Dean he’ll create. I cannot, and will not, invest in a show where the brothers don’t care enough about each other to save each other or talk the other out of needlessly sacrificing himself for yet another hunt/mission. I can’t even reconcile this S9 Sam w/the S8 Sam who didn’t seem to care that people were dying from demons/monsters when he wasn’t hunting, but is now angry w/Dean b/c he CHOSE to stop the trials.

    I also will never agree with you guys that Dean has “kept Sam in hunting” or has suffocated Sam. Last I checked, Sam is a grown man who can make his own decisions. Dean has never put a gun to Sam’s head and forced Sam to stay w/him. In the Pilot, Dean left Sam. He dropped off Sam at Stanford and told Sam to keep in touch. In Scarecrow, Dean let Sam go. He did not chase after Sam. When Sam wanted to leave in GGY, Dean told him to go. He “let” Sam jump in the Pit. He told Sam to go to Amelia if that is where Sam wanted to be. Dean has never tried to force Sam to stay w/him.

    If Sam decided to go off to college now, Dean would not try to stop him. It has NEVER been about keeping Sam w/him. Would Dean like for Sam to stay w/him? Of course, but if Sam wanted to go, he would leave and Dean would deal w/it. What Dean has cared about is Sam being alive. People always misquote him in S2. He said he couldn’t live w/Sam being dead; he never said he couldn’t live w/o Sam. That would be dumb b/c he lived w/o Sam for 2 years when Sam was in college – 4 years if you include the writing error/goof.

    Dean can live w/o Sam though he would prefer to have his brother in his life.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 6, 2014 @ 7:49 pm

  150. @146. Sheri, I liked the boys’ story this season till the last two episodes. Now, it depends where Carver is planning to take it from here. I think there’s a possibility (and I might be completely wrong) that he might be going somewhere positive.rather than towards destroying it, and that is what I sincerely hope.

    I really hate some of the way the dialogue has been written, though.

    As an aside, there’s NOTHING I hated more in the entire series than the fact that they gave no real reason for Sam’s behavior last season.(not looking for Dean, etc)

    Comment by Tammy — February 6, 2014 @ 7:53 pm

  151. @Lisa. I won’t go so far as to say I’m being all positive think that some of the things Sam said (very very badly, I add) weren’t probably meant as spitefully as they initially came across. Hopefully. And that Dean also got the more positive interpretation. I do not know for certain, and as I said before, it will hopefully be clearer in the upcoming episodes as I’m not certain which path JC has in mind for the boys relationship.

    I agree that Dean hasn’t forced Sam to stay with him, but he has at times, I felt (don’t kill me) emotionally manipulated Sam. They both have, at diffrent times. People are complicated. He wants Sam to be happy, but he also wants Sam to stay with him, and Sam knows it. My opinion.

    Comment by Tammy — February 6, 2014 @ 8:09 pm

  152. @Sheri- well, they kinda destroyed what I loved about the Winchesters in the last season finale and then cemented that by destroying Dean’s character in 9×01 and 9×02. But it was the start of the season and the writing was good. As long as the writing is good I’ll stay along for the ride, just to see where it takes me. I think at that point I was pretty vocal about Zeke being a bad guy and Dean going dark. At this point there was no Dean and Sam, because Sam had been replaced by an angel.
    At that point I was just watching for Cas…and then they completely f’d up Cas’s character in 9×03.
    The we got:
    9×04 Charlie in oz
    9×05 the unfunny dog episode
    9×06 the Berens epi (loved this. Beautifully written and he got Cas right)
    9×07 Dean as a kid being much happier away from family.( Meh.)
    9×08 the horrible porn!stan Dean episode (revolting)
    9×09 Cas gets tortured and rescues himself. Kevin dies. Dean whips out the one manly tear. (At least it wasn’t boring and Cas was a BAMF but some of the writing was cringeworthy)
    9×10 Dean comes clean to Cas and invites Crowley to take his brother for a spin, finally getting rid of Gadreel. (Poor Sam being passed around like a party favor.) Then Abbadon shows up. Dramatic, well-written episode that wiped the floor with most of what came before.
    9×11 All about Cain. Really good episode with action, backstory, interesting new character, good dialogue… Just weird that Dean is off playing with Crowley only to get played again. Also kind of a dead end, since the whole thing got dropped at the end of the episode (will this be another MoL that looks promising but never goes anywhere?)
    9×11 Garth the werewolf waste-of-my-time episode with one scene worth watching at the end in which Sam says things he can’t trust Dean the way he should be able to but he is still going to work with him.
    9×12 pretty good MoTW epi with a couple of interesting interactions between the bros and one significant scene.

    Frankly, at least the issues they’re dealing with this season are real ones with relevance to their relationship from the start of the series. They’re actually talking to each other and being honest. So I’m happier with them than last season. But the season as a whole hasn’t been a lot of fun. Especially as a Cas fan.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 6, 2014 @ 8:20 pm

  153. San@116, well said. I agree with you about Sam. To me, the most telling line of the dialogue T1gerlilly quoted is this:

    “Please tell me. What is the upside of me being alive?”

    I think Sam’s reasoning goes something like this:

    –he should have closed the Gates of Hell
    –since he failed, he should have paid the price of failure by dying
    –Dean forced him to live
    –as a result, Kevin and others were killed who would still be alive if Sam had died either closing the Gates or in his coma

    Sam blames Dean for forcing him to live–a decision that cost innocent lives (thanks to Gadreel).
    Sam doesn’t want to hunt with Dean as his brother because Sam knows that, as his brother, Dean will save his life– even if it could mean others will lose their lives as a consequence.
    Castiel warned Sam he could die from the Gadreel juice extraction. Sam eagerly, even excitedly, urged Castiel on.

    Why does Sam want to die so much? Is it because he can’t live with the guilt of innocent lives being lost because of him? I don’t know. Maybe.

    But one thing’s for sure. Sam is so severely depressed, he believes his life is pointless, and everyone would be safer with him dead. He’s in despair and needs help–especially from the person he loves most in the world. But Dean is so absorbed with his own guilt over Kevin, he’s not paying attention to the fact that his brother is drowning in despair–just as Sam was drowning when Dean drove away two weeks before they met again.

    The situation didn’t improve when they got back together. So, longing to be heard, Sam hurled (often patently ridiculous) insults at Dean, punching him again and again with words instead of fists, hitting his brother where he’s most vulnerable. Ohfandom’s right: Sam went for the jugular.

    But I don’t think it was to hurt Dean. At least on an unconscious level, Sam doesn’t want to die; he wants to want to live. But how does he pull himself out of suicidal despair? How can he value his life again when others paid for it with theirs? He desperately needs someone to convince him he’s worthy of living, that his life has a point. Dean is the natural choice.

    Ironically, in that scene from which T1gerlilly quoted, Dean talked about how he’d saved Sam’s life repeatedly. Yet, Dean was too blind to see that the little brother he loves was dying before his eyes.

    As Dean said, “I may not think things all the way through.” He certainly wasn’t thinking about the subtext of what Sam was saying. For instance, “You didn’t want to be alone, and that’s what this all boils down to. You can’t stand the thought of being alone.” This was an opening for Dean to reply with something like, “Okay, I don’t want to be alone. You’re my brother. But you’re also my hunting partner. You’re the best in the business. You’ve saved a hell of a lot of lives and, if you’re not around, people are going to die.”

    Dean didn’t pick up on Sam’s many cues because Dean almost never picks up on Sam’s cues. Or the reverse. Rarely, if ever, have the Winchesters communicated well. I guess we can’t expect them to start now.

    And it’s sad because Sam and Dean are mirroring one another. Both are weighed down by guilt and tortured by self-loathing. The difference is that Dean isn’t ready to die for his failures. Sam is.

    Comment by JT — February 6, 2014 @ 10:18 pm

  154. JT, Although I like to believe you’re right, but you’re just guessing. We don’t really know what Sam meant. If that’s true and Sam feels so guilty about Kevin’s death, why didn’t he try to save Kevin at the beginning of season 8? Why did he abandon him?
    I think we really don’t know Sam anymore. He keeps changing his opinion, his behavior doesn’t make sense. One minute he wants to kill himself because he thinks Dean is disappointed in him and prefers others to him and the next he’s furious because Dean tried to save his life. I know where he’s coming from, I understand his pain and anger but wasn’t he the one who wanted to show Dean the light at the end of the tunnel? Wasn’t this the reason he wanted to do the trials himself? And now all of a sudden he wants to die? Like I said, doesn’t make sense, at least not to me. Whenever he says something I often find myself scratching my head because it confuses the hell out of me.
    But I like this Sam better than the Sam of last season. At least he’s honest. Last season Sam seemed really cold and bitter to me. He wanted to close the gates of hell and get the hell out, he didn’t care about Dean at all. At least this Sam has feelings and I agree that he’s hurt and lashing out at Dean. I hope Carver is going somewhere with all of this.

    Comment by miki — February 7, 2014 @ 1:38 am

  155. I don’t want to make up my own head cannon, we can all do our own interpretations of what is said and meant but I want it to be clear so that we can understand where the brothers are coming from. Giving Sam the dialogue they did in this episode makes it quite clear that he does not want to be a brother etc etc, we can read as many interpretations as we like but that is not what we were shown. I have heard that the writer of this episode said something like bye bye co-dependency. That is a very serious concern to me, who wants a normal relationship between Sam and Dean, I certainly don’t. They are larger than life heroes in this world with evil and monsters and I want them to remain faithful to the idea that the hunt does not come first, family does. When Sam didn’t shoot his father to get rid of the yellow eyed demon he said that the hunt does not always come first, he was looking at Dean when he said that and that is how I want the brothers to be. They cannot overcome all or even some of the evil they have to face unless they can trust each other to always put the other brother before the hunt. There will always be collateral damage but they are fighting as best they can, if they didn’t then there would be a lot more dead people than those they haven’t been able to save IMO anyway! To hell with maturity, I have mature relationships and that does not always mean good! I so want them to get rid of this idea that we all want to watch angst between Sam and Dean rather than them fighting, with friends and sometimes enemies if needed the evil and monsters in their world.

    Comment by Icarus — February 7, 2014 @ 5:57 am

  156. Expecting too much from Sam. Dean wasn’t the least bit remorseful. Not saying that he doesn’t feel it inside but I don’t blame Sam that he could not stand the front Dean was putting. The way Dean said: “You know Sam I saved your hide back there” like he was chiding Sam, the tone of his voice when he said: “It was the RIGHT thing”, a little twist of the neck and “I’d do it again”. Could he waive a bigger red flag in front of Sam because I would not be surprised if for Sam it seemed like Dean doesn’t truly care how Sam felt about the situation.

    @126 G-dawg: Exactly, I think that’s why Dean cannot understand where Sam is coming from.

    @153, JT. And the way Sam said he _should_ have died. Not because he had made peace with dying or even just because he was ready. I agree that there is a lot of focus on Kevin now. Dean seems to have gone from feeling like poison and feeling like he took a part of Sam to thinking he knows best and Kevin’s death is the only thing that really got to him.

    Also I can’t help but feel that the confrontation at the church is not resolved due to what started at the hospital. If Sam feels that the only reason Dean saved him is because Dean does not want to be alone, then it really seems to go back to how Sam was kind of the only one that was left from the top 3. He didn’t know what happened to Cas but nothing good if even the “best case scenario” would be Cas locked away in Heaven forever and Benny was dead. So maybe Sam still feels that Dean does not trust him, still would turn to other people and wanted him to live by all means necessary just based of the needs Dean has without thinking where Sam was in his head.

    @155 Icarus. Nice, further proof that they DO have an agenda :/

    Comment by ~ San ~ — February 7, 2014 @ 6:56 am

  157. This is how Sam described how he felt at the end of season 7:
    I had no one. No one. And for the first time in my life I was completely alone, and honestly I didn’t exactly have a road map.

    So it seems that Carver thinks that during season 8 he “cured” Sam of being afraid to be alone / being afraid of what life would be if his brother was dead.

    Now he is setting out to do the same to Dean.

    Comment by ~ San ~ — February 7, 2014 @ 7:48 am

  158. Spent some time reading writer twitter pages. They are getting some flack over the state of the brothers’ relationship (duh) Looking at their responses it seems that they do have a plan to break the brothers’ relationship down and then rebuild in “better” place.

    Remember everyone #conflict is good for story. And becuz something is happening now doesn’t mean it’s forever. It’s for now. And sometimes that is the task we are given as writers. Don’t fix it yet, carry it a little longer, keep them at odds-Adam Glass

    Multiple reasons epi was called #ThePurge. Gotta expel the pent up negative & start from an honest place. Catharsis is good. Progress doesn’t mean resolution. Break down to rebuild-Eric Charmelo

    Also, Icarus, the co-writer of this episode, Eric Charmelo, did not write the codependency tweet. It was tweeted to him by a fan who is a vocal opponent of the “toxic” codependency. Eric did retweet it though.

    Comment by ohfandom — February 7, 2014 @ 7:59 am

  159. My thoughts:

    I loved the Winchesters special relationship the way it was, i.e, the “saving each other”, the codependency or whatever you may call it, the two against the world, etc, etc. That is the reason I watch the show, and I love the specialness of it. OK, it’s somewhat unhealthy, so what, they’re not real; heck, it’s a show called Supernatural! It makes me happy to see them care so much that they would die for each other.

    HOWEVER, honesty and trust are the basis of any strong relationship, and we have seen how the lack of both has time and time again torn the brothers apart.

    Now, IF (and a very big if it is) Carver’s agenda is to do away, or at least lessen those two elements of their relationship, and keep the specialness and the extreme love, well, I’m sure it will do nothing but make them stronger. I’ll be all for it. I do not like the way he’s doing it, if he’s doing that at all, but I’ll be really pleased with the end result, and we’ll hopefully see it before the end of the series :).

    BUT if he’s got a plan to do away with the ‘bond’ (sorry Sheri, can’t find another word), then what’s the point of watching this show; I’ll probably stop watching as it will be a gut-wrenching to see them like that.

    So anyway, I’m putting my trust in Carver at the moment to do something good, even though a lot of evidence seems to point to the opposite… I so hope I’m not wrong!

    Comment by Tammy — February 7, 2014 @ 8:13 am

  160. @158 oh fandom.
    So Destiel campaigning is paying off? As long as Dean was “co-dependent” on Sam, he could not be fully committed to Cas like they wanted.

    Why can’t the writers treat that element as a unique part of Sam and Dean that sets them apart from other stories? It’s not so black and white.

    Comment by ~ San ~ — February 7, 2014 @ 8:19 am

  161. Tammy (151) – I just feel each brother has ultimately done what he wanted to do. There may be some emotional manipulation but that is realistic. They ate both human, and I don’t see anything inherently wrong with either of them being emotionally manipulative. It takes it too far to say Dean has been suffocating Sam. Sam is grown and could always leave if he wasn’t happy.

    Foolishly, I thought the brothers were in a good place at the end of S7. I didn’t think their relationship needed any fixing. I find it troubling that Carver lacks the creative ability to think of a new story for the boys instead of the constant conflicts and bickering. I also feel he is retreading old ground. If Dean’s lesson is to learn to let Sam go, he learned that lesson in S5. He let Sam go. If the lesson is to show that Dean can put others above Sam, then one need look no further than S5. We saw Dean do that in S5.

    The only new thing about Carver’s story is the destruction of Sam. Under Carver, Sam has been a real jerk, IMO. I guess Dean is destined to become a jerk as well with Carver at the helm. And I know both have been jerky before but I never found them to be “actual jerks.” I’m real down on this new Sam Carver’s created. Don’t know if I like him.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 7, 2014 @ 9:54 am

  162. My while thing is this: Yes, Dean HAS acted in a selfish manner on occasion, Yes Dean HAS tended to look at Sam as his ‘child” (given Sam being put on him from the age of four, it’s only logical) Yes Dean can’t bear to lose Sam. But to insinuate that the ONLY reasons Dean has ever saved Sam is pure selfishness, that Dean doesn’t truly love Sam, just completely goes against EVERYTHING that we’ve been shown since the very beginning.
    Dean has got to be the most far from perfect character I’ve personally ever seen on TV. He’s got MANY faults and personality flaws. But come on guys, it’s been shown over and over again how much he loves Sam with all his heart. He certainly does show that love in insane ways, but I find it very hard to believe, even for Dean haters, that they cannot see that.
    It’s very true that Dean went way too far this time. I

    Comment by roxi — February 7, 2014 @ 9:58 am

  163. I have been very vocal in my opinion that the actions Dean took with the Gadreel possession and the lies were VERY WRONG. I have NEVER disputed that. But anybody that knows this character must realize that to him, he truly WAS acting out of what he thought was love. Doesn’t excuse or condone it, but all the people on other sites right now, basically having orgasms over the way Sam talked to Dean and saying how that selfish bastard deserved it, well, all I can say is that they never liked or understood the character of Dean in the first place.
    I fully expect Dean to turn to evil now. Why? Because I would think that now, Dean probably feels that his ENTIRE life has been one huge f-kup, that he has done no good at all ever in his role fighting evil, so why the hell not join it? Maybe he’ll excell at being bad, because he sure sucked at trying to be good, right? Do you see where I’m going with this?
    I never thought I’d say this, but I really wish Cas were back. He can be hard on Dean sometimes( when Dean deserves it) but yes, no Destiel intended here, but Cas does right now look like the only being that truly loves and understands Dean, whether in a brotherly or romantic way.

    Comment by roxi — February 7, 2014 @ 10:08 am

  164. @161- Yes Lisa, what both Sam and Dean are is HUMAN, meaning that yes, they can both be pricks at times, also, they can and HAVE both made enormous mistakes, but at their core, they are both decent, good people who only mean well. And in the end, I never doubted that they truly loved eachother. ‘A Very Supernatural Christmas”, Mystery Spot, countless others, they get pissed at eachother but the love is obvious. I NEVER doubted Dean’s love. I never doubted Sam’s either, until sucky season 8, and the present.
    If Sam really believes what he told Dean this past episode, then, to me, all the wonderful episodes and scenes of brotherly devotion, sacrifice, and love from the past have been invalidated, meaningless.
    Somebody earlier posted here how ‘People Change’ after 11 years or something to that effect. So, people DO change. Does that mean all the love that came before dies?

    Comment by roxi — February 7, 2014 @ 10:27 am

  165. I agree that this story is a device to get Dean on a dark path. I’m not sure how dark though. Cain was “the best at being the worst” which is a little terrifying considering how some demons seem to enjoy eating humans etc. but somehow I still feel like even Cain was not full on demon. Something was fundamentally different. So even when Dean turns dark, I think it’ll be more like a dark side of him but not full on evil. It’s the part that remembers how he went sadistic in hell etc. and thinks his brother gave up on him.

    I’m a little iffy on the Cas thing because it could very easily seem like he thinks “Sammy hates me but I’ll go to the second best option, I know at least Cas’ll have me”.

    Comment by ~ San ~ — February 7, 2014 @ 10:38 am

  166. I haven’t had time to read all the comments but wanted to mention this, Sam chose to live. He was tricked into saying yes to Gadreel, but HE chose to live.

    Dean/Gadreel looked at Death and said it’s not his time, and Death said I will leave that up to him.

    Dean manipulated and tricked Sam, there’s no lie to that but if Sam had been so ready to follow Death why did he then chose to say yes and live?

    Sam has every right to be angry, but he’s taking it to an unbelievable level. He needs to accept his responsibility in all that has happened instead of heaping all the blame and Dean. And yes Dean needs to stop using family as a cure all.

    Comment by Aislinn — February 7, 2014 @ 10:40 am

  167. @161. Lisa, I never said that Dean suffocated Sam at all. I just said they have at times both manipulated each other because, yes, they are human, and I love them that way. BOTH of them, as I am also a bi-bro fan and a devotee (ha ha, is that going too far) of the brotherhood.

    I also know that Dean loves Sam as much, or more than any parent could, and I HATED the way Sam talked to him. I’m just trying to say that maybe Carver’s intentions (not the method – I do NOT like that) might be to eventually go somewhere positive.

    I too believe that the brothers were in a good place after Sam’s re-souling, and when season seven ended. But, for whatever reason, they haven’t seemed to learn that honesty and trust is paramount in their relationship, and maybe that’s where Carver wants to take them, and not destroy their brotherhood.

    That’s a perspective I like to believe as the alternative is just too bad to think about. For the record, I would have been completely happy if he had had Sam rescue Dean from Purgatory, and they could have gone on fighting evil together, united.

    ps. Yes, I also feel that Sam has been a jerk a lot of the time in these two seasons, sadly.

    Comment by Tammy — February 7, 2014 @ 10:47 am

  168. @165- Well, I guess you could say the difference was that Cain was marked by God. He didn’t willingly take it. I’m thinking that maybe because Dean, willingly took it, along with everything else that has happened and now probably feeling like his ENTIRE life has been a lie, that he really hasn’t done any good ever after all, that he has NEVER done anything right or good, that compounded by the mark may just push him over the edge towards the darkside.
    If he becomes as powerful as Cain, then maybe he will take Abaddon as his lover/consort before killing her. At least that would be a way to get these two in a hot scene together. I thought that they had smoking hot sexual chemistry and thought it was a waste that there was no way to have any sexual encounter between them. Maybe now there is.

    Comment by roxi — February 7, 2014 @ 10:55 am

  169. @167- Well, I have gone on record saying that I do believe that Dean has suffocated Sam, but not intentionally. I honesty don’t think that Dean realizes this.
    Sam wants Dean to loosen his grip on him, which is understandable, and yet, at the slightest hint of Dean actually doing that, as in 5:2, Sam is genuinely surprised and taken aback, expects Dean to put up a fight about it. So on one hand, he wants Dean to stop focusing so intently on him, yet, seems disappointed if he does. Sam seems to want both; to be independent of Dean, but STILL be the center of Dean’s life. It can be confusing.

    Comment by roxi — February 7, 2014 @ 11:03 am

  170. @169. Yes, its like with Dean, i feel. He wants Sam to be happy doing what he wants, and yet, he hates the thought of Sam leaving him. Mind you, he’d ‘let’ Sam leave, but be unhappy about it.

    I guess so much of what we are, do and feel is because of our childhoods and circumstances while growing up. It really can define your personality and decisions for your whole life, even though at times, logically you might know that something else might be ‘better’ or more logical, whatever.

    Comment by Tammy — February 7, 2014 @ 11:14 am

  171. @163 roxi – If you (or any posters with this opinion) think Dean was wrong in what he did, and Sam therefore had a right to get angry, why are you mad that he did? What should he have realistically, (meaning he is still dealing with all of this, including his body being used to kill Kevin) said that would be okay with you? I agree with you that what he did was out of love, but he said himself “Sam would rather die than be possessed.” He did it anyway. He knew Sam would be pissed he was deceived and lied to, but he still did it. If just saying it’s out of love doesn’t “excuse or condone” his behavior, what should Sam do? What options are left to him but to explicitly say what he said?

    Which is – Fair warning: this is my own personal rant, feel free to ignore – why I have a real hard time believing people who say they are bi-bro. I do not recall people saying “F you dean” when he told sam he was a monster, a freak, he’d hunt him if he didn’t know him, I can’t trust you, we can’t be what we were, etc. Sam gets blamed for the apocolypse, even though they both unknowingly broke seals. Dean’s even came about because of his admittedly selfish deal. I don’t recall anyone pointing out how Sam had nothing but lying angels pushing him to break the last seal, Ruby repeatedly saving their lives, and a power that the demon blood fueled which allowed him to exorcise demons without killing the victim. There was plenty of reason for Sam to get some slack, but he still gets blame for that. Posters are still using the Hell deal in dean’s defense as a selfless act, when it clearly is the exact problem Sam is trying to address now. Same with Purgatory. Sam thought he was dead. Not in purgatory, because that’s for monsters. Not in Hell, because Crowley would have immediately pointed that out. Not zapped to China just because there was no body, because that’s kind of silly. Dead in Heaven, because that’s the only other option that made sense, and Sam knew deals were bad so he tried to make peace.

    For alleged bi-bro fans, Sam seems to consistently get the short end of the stick.

    Obviously, I have more identified with Sam from episode one, in case that was unclear.

    Comment by Sarah — February 7, 2014 @ 11:19 am

  172. @168. The mark came from Lucifer originally. That’s a piece of information I wish Dean had not omitted from Sam. But episode 12 wasn’t going to develop that story anyhow.

    @170 Tammy. And I think Dean really likes it when Sam needs him. One of the most evident episodes of that was Season 7, Time For a Wedding. Another reason why this “strictly business” thing is gonna break him.

    Comment by ~ San ~ — February 7, 2014 @ 11:27 am

  173. Dean and Sam scenes were great. specially the last one. It was heartbreaking. It was for the first time I hated Sam. What is wrong with him?Sam is not like Dean. Sam does not love Dean the same way Dean does. whenever Sam is going to die, Dean does everything to save him but Sam never shows the same thing. he never try like Dean. I am really sorry for Dean. I wanted to cry for Dean and his broken heart. How thoughtless, how emotionless is Sam.

    Comment by serenity — February 7, 2014 @ 11:31 am

  174. miki @154 and Icarus@155, agreed–with everything you say. I confess that when I’m not slamming the writers of this show for undermining the relationship between the brothers, I’m torturing the text, trying to force it to yield some profound psychological or artistic meaning. Who am I kidding? The writers/producers don’t give a flying leap about profundity. What they want is ratings–and they sure as heck know what they’re doing.

    ohfandom, I think what you say in paragraph 2 @ 158 best sums up what’s really been going on in the past few episodes: it’s all about conflict being good for story. Does it matter what the bros are fighting over? No more than it matters if we know what the Sam hill they’re talking about when they speak their vagaries. The object is simply to get viewers into the tent and keep them there for the duration of the season.

    What has ALWAYS drawn viewers into the SN tent and kept them there? Not blood/ gore, monsters, demons, angels, action sequences, special effects, yadayadayada–none of which we can’t find handled better on a higher budget series than this one. It’s the Winchester bros that keep most viewers coming back week after week, year after year, and the writers/producers know it. As one critic for the NY Times pointed out, this is the best show about siblings on television. (Thanks primarily, of course, to Jensen and Jared.)

    But how many viewers would crowd into that tent each week to watch the Winchester buddies laughing it up slapping each other on the backs, drying one another’s tears, spending their happy days off chasing waitresses and tooling around in Baby? I wouldn’t. I don’t think most of us would.
    And sites like this? Forget about it. What’s there to say about, “The Hardy Boys Go Monster Hunting”?

    I agree with your beautifully expressed thoughts 100%, Tammy. But I’ve got to say, I wouldn’t care about the “specialness and extreme love” behind the brothers’ relationship if I hadn’t watched that relationship put in extreme jeopardy in season after season, beginning with the first. Deep down, I want to see Sam misunderstood by Dean, Dean misjudged by Sam, each mistreated by the other–and, yes, even knock down drag out fights between them. Deep down, I even want to wonder and worry about whether this is the end. Will they actually break up and go their separate ways?

    The battles make the brotherly love that binds them through thick and thin all the more rare and powerful. Equally important, they pull me as audience right into the show. I see how much Sam is hurting; Dean should be sympathizing with him. I sense the depth of Dean’s loneliness. Sam should care more about his brother. And because I’m made part of the show this way, when the long awaited reunion happens (which it always must), there’s three of us hugging, weeping, whatever. Not just two. That’s how the best drama works.

    So, when I complain about the brothers going at each other, do the writers/producers actually know what keeps me in that tent better than I do?
    Hate to admit it, but yeah. They do.

    Comment by JT — February 7, 2014 @ 11:51 am

  175. @San – Destiel fans are having the exact same discussions that bi-bro fans are. They aren’t happy about the brothers fighting in the least. A lot of people became Destiel fans because they’re Dean fans and want him to be happy and loved by someone who’s proven he’d die for him. All those Dean/Destiel fans are really, really upset. Also, non-Destiel fans don’t realize that Sam is a really important part of the Destiel mythos. Sam represents the kind of unconditional love that we all want from our family. Sam is the one whose acceptance and love when Dean finally confesses he’s bi, is what finally heals Dean from the abuse from his father – and lets him grow and be happy. Like Destiel is a lot about family as much as about romantic love.
    So there are a lot of Destiel fans who are really upset at this breach and angry at Sam. The rest of us are taking a more even keel and trying to keep them off the ledge. Kinda like here.
    Not to mention the Wincestiel fans. Really. I’m not going to mention them. But you can guess how happy they are.
    I really don’t get where San is connecting any of this to something Destiel fans would want. I just don’t get the logic there.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 7, 2014 @ 12:14 pm

  176. @roxi –
    I kinda have to echo Sarah. What, specifically, do you think Sam should have said to Dean? I won’t put words in your mouth. I won’t make assumptions. I’m just asking straight out.
    How should that conversation have gone?

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 7, 2014 @ 12:23 pm

  177. @175. I think that there is a group that has certain characteristics such as they use words like toxic co-dependency, how they want the brothers to be “healthy”, how the co-dependency is ruining the brothers and the show etc. and then talk about Dean/Cas.

    As soon as I saw that the writer had retweeted something that went like this:
    See you all on the other side of codependency!
    I knew it came from that group.

    Comment by ~ San ~ — February 7, 2014 @ 12:35 pm

  178. @174. JT. Thanks :)

    And you’re right. Here we are, still talking about the first and last few minutes of a 45 minute show.

    They know what gets us involved.

    Comment by Tammy — February 7, 2014 @ 1:26 pm

  179. @roxi- Hold on to your hat girl because Dean is going to get another lashing and degrading of his character in the next episode Captives. In the next episode who doesn’t think the “ghost” in the MOL bunker ISN”T Kevin? Of course it is. And Who doesn’t think that the person in that dark room isn’t Mrs Tran? Of course it is. So Roxi Dean is going to get beat up again and torn down again in the next episode.

    See I am not getting into the conversation about what happened at the end of Purge because what is done is done. You guys have gone on and on and on going back and forth back and forth between Sam is right, Sam is wrong, Dean is right, Dean is wrong and as a matter of fact-What happened in that episode happened. NOBODIES opinion got changed so why are you guys bothering? Because this BS going on in the fandom right now is exactly what Carver wants. He wants us in a tizzy -talking about SPN. I am not giving him the satisfaction. We can only ride the wave if we want to see where that soap opera BS that came out of Sam’s mouth is going to lead. And yes Carver is not done beating down Dean-so that is going to come too. So Roxi hold on girl-Just take it as it is and maybe on the otherside it will look better than it does now.

    Comment by animal — February 7, 2014 @ 4:00 pm

  180. Well, I wasn’t asked, but I gave an example of how I wish the conversation had gone. I would have worded it differently. The way it was worded made Sam, IMO, appear like an insensitive jerk with little to no love for his brother. That’s how I saw it.

    ——

    @Sarah – As with most things, there is no ONE way to view anything. I do not favor one brother over the other. I love both brothers but have always stated that the writing for Sam irritates me far more than the writing for Dean. I feel the writers care about Dean in a way they DON’T care about Sam, which is why Sam gets stilted, harsh dialogue and no perspective. For instance, last year Sam’s FBs were mostly about Amelia instead of Sam. Here, they could have toned down Sam’s dialogue and made the same points but had Sam go for the jugular. The same thing happened in S&V. Sam got the harshest dialogue of the two and barely any POV.

    IMO, the writers constantly do a disservice to Sam, but that’s JMO. That’s all I can say. You may disagree that I’m bi-bro based on my comments, but I know how I feel about the brothers and the show.

    ——-

    @Tammy – I know you didn’t. I was talking about T1gerlilly who said Dean was suffocating Sam.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 7, 2014 @ 4:33 pm

  181. @171& 176- Why the hell am I the only ones you guys are lashing out at? I’m NOT the one who said FUCK you Sam!
    Plenty of other people here have been angry at the sway Sam talked to Dean, but I’M the bitch?
    Why do I always get the shit on here?
    I don’t know what the f-k is wrong with you people who accuse me like you do, when I have said MANY F-KING TIMES that Dean has also done plenty wrong. I NEVER have given Dean a free pass!
    And again,NOBODY was upset at Sam for being mad at what Dean did this season. What I didn’t like was Sam claiming EVERYTHING Dean ever did was onlyu for himself and I

    Comment by roxi — February 7, 2014 @ 5:15 pm

  182. @181- What I didn’t like was Sam claiming that EVERYTHING Dean EVER did was only for himself and I’m sorry, yes Sarah it’s quite obvious that you only like Sam and don’t like Dean at all, but that doesn’t change the many examples of love I’ve seen Dean show for Sam, and yes , Sam for Dean as well.
    For your info, I HAVE stated that Sam didn’t realize he was freeing Lucifer.
    I HAVE stated that I attributed a lot of the way Sam acted towards Dean in season 4 was due to being screwed up by demon blood.
    I NEVER faulted Sam for wanting a normal life , only how he seemed to completely turn his back on Dean while he was doing it.
    I HAVE stated that Dean used to be too bloodthirsty, can be a douchebag when it comes to women, was way too bossy with Sam on many occasions, is too obsessive about his hold on Sam, that he can be suffocating to Sam, that Dean has FAR more faults than Sam, how I hated the way he talked to the bullied little Todd, the dick move he made with that text, EVERYTHING he has done so far this season,etc.
    But no, somehow you people who keep ragging on me (and me alone) keep missing that or more likely, willfully ignoring that.
    This is what you want: For me and everyone else to condemn Dean for EVERYTHING, to basically find NO good in the character, and to claim that NOTHING Sam EVER does is wrong, that he’s perfect and blameless. If not, then somehow we are not bi-bro.
    Well I’m sorry, but I have been watching a show where BOTH leads have been both good, loving, and brave, and where BOTH leads have also been complete assholes.BOTH.

    Comment by roxi — February 7, 2014 @ 5:31 pm

  183. @179- I hope it’s NOT Kevin. That would be too cheesy.
    Or Bobby. Or Mrs. Tran. They really need to start leaving these people who die stay dead.
    So the wonderful bunker, that’s supposed to be warded against everything, can be haunted. Boy,these writers have run out of good ideas it seems.

    Comment by roxi — February 7, 2014 @ 6:01 pm

  184. @roxi – Given that you accuse people of both attacking you and hating Dean fairly regularly, I’m not really sure how to respond to that or if there’s a point. I would like to point out, though, that no one called you a bitch. The question I asked has been coming up through most of the discussion board. I specifically was asking the question of “any posters with this opinion” while referencing your post as it was the most recent I saw that addressed the point. t1gerlily was echoing that question. The point I was trying to make (and I think others as well) is that it’s not really a question you can actually answer. I know several people have posted nicer versions of expressing the same sentiment. But Sam shouldn’t have to be nice right now (which is why I asked for an answer that takes into consideration Sam’s feelings in that particular moment), and I don’t understand why he’s expected to be, especially if you understand he has a right to be mad and Dean was wrong to lie to him and allow the possession. Of course there’s better ways of saying almost anything when you can sit back and think on it. But Sam is pissed and Dean is still saying “I’d do it again.” While knowing Sam has also stated before he feels like an unequal partner. That, at least, is my problem with Sam getting attacked.

    @roxi, lisa1 and any other bi-bro fans I may have offended – I did not mean to personally upset anyone. Obviously, I can’t prove who likes whom more, less, or equal. For myself, I have from the start always identified stronger with Sam. I don’t think saying that in any way means I hate Dean (or vice-versa). They’re differently drawn characters, even more so at the beginning of the series, and I think it’s natural to relate to one more than the other given that. It’s why people have friends and best friends. Or why Cas helped save Sam’s life from Anna, but has stated and clearly shown he’s closer to Dean. As I said, my opinion on the portrayal and reception of both brothers has been building since season 4, and it looks like this string of episodes is going to be used as another example of how bad a brother Sam is. There are still people (I don’t recall who) posting this week about how Sam had to throw himself into the worst level of Hell to redeem himself for letting Lucifer out. Why? That did not occur in a vacuum, but aside for a few lines in a couple episodes about how Dean broke the first seal, Sam got the full blame. Now Sam is apparently allowed to be mad, but not too mad, and not mad in a hurtful way.

    I still stand by what I said as far as him getting the short end of the stick in the majority of situations, but I don’t think anyone watching (especially not anyone watching and involved enough to be on here) could actually hate either character. That seems like a really unpleasant way to spend your time.

    Comment by Sarah — February 7, 2014 @ 6:51 pm

  185. Sarah – The reason I think Sam could have stated his points in a much cleaner, less abrasive way is b/c I don’t think he was ticked off at Dean in that moment. I don’t think he was seething w/rage and anger when he sat down to speak to Dean.

    I think Sam has had 2+ weeks to think about what Dean did and identify his problem w/Dean’s actions. Sam has thought long and hard about why he’s upset. He’s not just speaking off the cuff here. So, I find it troubling that Sam uses the rare moment where Dean is reaching out to him to cut Dean down to nothing. What point was Sam trying to make? He basically, IMO, called Dean a selfish, pathetic coward. That is just upsetting for someone like me who has watched for the brotherhood.

    I also assume (since Sam hasn’t left) that Sam wants Dean to understand his POV and why he’s upset. I assume (since Sam hasn’t left) that he would like to repair his relationship w/Dean. If that’s the case, then I maintain that he went about this conversation in the wrong way. Dean heard nothing Sam said b/c Sam threw in some very harsh, cold language that did not allow for a dialogue.

    At the end of the day, their talk was pointless and only served to create more conflict. The writers clearly want to drag this out to the season finale until they do it all over again next year. Caver’s Supernatural is horrible, IMO.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 7, 2014 @ 8:16 pm

  186. Have you watched Facebook exclusive clip? In 9.15 Dean is clean shaven and in one scene his right arm is exposed and I think he doesn’t have the mark of Cain anymore.

    Comment by miki — February 7, 2014 @ 8:49 pm

  187. Wow.

    Sara sucked. Carver Sucked. Ya’ll have been watching a sucky show for nearly 4 years?

    Why?

    Anyway, Mediocre episode, except for the fantastic talk at the end. Yet another episode (two in a row) dealing with a family of monsters having to oust their loved ones. It did give us some funny moments, and that’s always welcomed.

    As for the ending, it was great. If Dean TRULY respected and loved Sam, he’d fulfill his wishes and let him die. Sorry, but if someone I cared about asked for me to pull the plug, and not keep them alive, I’d honor their wishes.

    You all act as if Sam is acting out of character or something, like you didn’t expect this… What show ya’ll be watching? This is Sam. He left for Stanford, something Dean always resented. Sam left for flagstaff. Dean chewed him out for that also. Sam left in season 1. The writers quite frankly are sticking to the character. I don’t get how ya’ll can’t see that.

    Dean NEEDS family and hunting. It’s all he has. It’s his LIFE. He knows nothing else. It’s Dean’s weakness. Always has been, always will be. That’s the character. Not sure what ya’ll expected.

    Comment by Tim — February 7, 2014 @ 8:51 pm

  188. I enjoyed Sera’s run as showrunner. Soulless!Sam was awesome!

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 7, 2014 @ 9:04 pm

  189. @184. Sarah, I totally agree with Lisa and other posters who’re pretty p*ed at Carver’s Sam right now. if he’d said these things immediately after he found out about Dean’s decision, seething with anger or in a shouting match with his brother, okay, I would have understood, I guess.

    But Sam’s words were said very deliberately and, seemingly, he was aiming for the jjugular. It was just what would hurt and break Dean the most, and Sam knew it. As Lisa pointed out, he’d had plenty of time to think it over, and he could have made his point much more clearly, assuming his point was not to break their relationship and his brother completely, and still let Dean know how what he did was very wrong, and why.

    There’s somewhere between being a doormat and a jerk, and Sam’s words were very much in ‘jerk’ territory. I consider Sam (even with his negative traits) to be very nice person who loves his brother very much, and someone who wouldn’t exploit Dean’s weak points (unless possessed or soulless or something), and I definitely think he would NOT have used the words Carver’s Sam did. And definitely not at this age and stage of his life.

    Comment by Tammy — February 7, 2014 @ 10:08 pm

  190. FYI, I think the biggest problem with Sam is the writers and the way they can’t seem to make up their minds as to how to portray him, or they just don’t care. Whereas Dean stays more or less consistent to his character (with some exceptions) and the seasons’ story line. I’ve ranted before about this, snd it remains a mystery to me.

    It is a big disservice to Sam and the show, in my opinion.

    Comment by Tammy — February 7, 2014 @ 11:32 pm

  191. See I don’t think Sam was going for the jugular or trying to hurt a Dean. He’s said much worse to Dean in the past. (You’re just daddy’s blunt little instrument )
    Not to mention he could have said much worse (and more unfair) things to him just by confirming what Dean already thinks of himself. Like:
    “You know what, Dean? You are poison. You have been ever since you came back from hell. I think you keep pulling me back from death just to torture me, watching everyone I care about die because of you. ”
    Or
    “You’re so messed up Dean. You really can’t tell right from wrong anymore, can you? Not that it matters. To you, family means never having to say you’re sorry. ‘Family’ means handing out my body to every Tom, Zeke, and Crowley that comes along – and you think that’s justified? You think I should be thanking you for that? That’s not family, that’s sick. ”
    Or
    “Don’t worry Dean, we can still work together. You’re still good at being Daddy’s blunt little instrument. He was right about you. You were never going to be anything else. My mistake was in trusting you, but I’ve learned better now. You’re vicious, I’ll give you that – and I’ll use you to put down as many monsters as I can. But you’ll never be my brother, any more than you were ever really his son. You understand, don’t you? It’s just not possible to love you. ”

    Like really, saying
    “there’s something broken between us”
    and
    “I don’t feel I can trust you”
    and
    “we can work together, but as brothers…”
    And
    “you see yourself as a hero even when you make mistakes”
    And
    “I wouldn’t do what you did”

    Just doesn’t measure up on the meanness scale. And there are plenty of other things he could have brought up… “At least Ruby never…” Or “Is this what Benny taught you about being a brother? Guess I shouldn’t be surprised.” Or “I’m not the only one you hurt, Dean. Cas? Kevin? I’m just the only one that’s still around to talk to you.”

    If Sam wanted to twist the knife he could have. But it seems to me he was just trying to bring stuff to Dean’s awareness. He’s not trying to hurt him. He’s trying to get him to talk to him. Be honest. And realize that he broke Sam’s trust and hurt him.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 8, 2014 @ 1:34 am

  192. That’s it, Tigerlilly. We agree. He did wrong Sam, I think hardly anyone disputes that.

    And I also think, like you, that PERHAPS it might finally lead to a stronger bond between the two, with more honesty and trust. Fine, I’d be happy with that. I don’t THINK Sam was really wanting to break Dean or that it is Carver’s intent to break the brotherhood, or at least I hope not.

    My beef is with the writers. The words could have been much better chosen to convey what Sam was trying to say without making him seem so uncaring and, well, a jerk. And hereby creating thus furore, these interpretations. And so on.

    But then as JT said, its all good for the ratings and interest, so here we go. Apparently the drama created for show ratings is more important than the characters and their relationship to the writers, unfortunately.

    Comment by Tammy — February 8, 2014 @ 2:33 am

  193. The words you wrote above would clearly show Sam’s situation: he really doesn’t like his brother or being with him anymore, he thi is Dean messes up, is selfish and so on. Basically, show Sam to be a a****** inarguably.

    Or he could have said his piece the way I or Lisa or so many other posters feel would have more natural and appropriate, again showing Sam’s position clearly, that he still cares for and loves Dean, but wants him to understand Sams POV.

    But I think the writers were going with a little ambiguous to keep it ‘mysterious’, exactly for the kind of discussions we’re having now. I personally think it was, as I wrote, jerk-Sam material, but just the fact that there ARE so many views about what he meant, etc means the writers achieved their goal, I guess.

    Comment by Tammy — February 8, 2014 @ 2:55 am

  194. I’m the most afraid for Dean’s character. Having the brothers become better for each other, equals etc. I have nothing against. But it’s been such a part of Dean since day one that he needs his family, Sam is the most important to him and he can’t bear if something happens to Sam. I think in their haste to “break down the relationship to build it up” they will end up shifting something fundamental that used to make their relationship special.

    Comment by ~ San ~ — February 8, 2014 @ 3:09 am

  195. @194. San, if they do that, I think it will be really upsetting to most of the show’s fans. One would think that they’d get it by now, and that is the only reason I am trying to find explanations and reasons for where the show is now.

    Otherwise, well, Carver would need to be a real idiot to still not understand that most of us watch it FOR their special relationship, and the two against evil, etc.

    Comment by Tammy — February 8, 2014 @ 3:22 am

  196. @Tammy – “Or he could have said his piece the way I or Lisa or so many other posters feel would have more natural and appropriate, again showing Sam’s position clearly, that he still cares for and loves Dean, but wants him to understand Sams POV.”

    —- I agree. My beef is, and remains to be, with the writing. The writers didn’t limit Sam’s condemnation to this incident, but broadened it to encompass the whole of Dean. Sam rebuked Dean and everything about him, rather than his actions in this particular incident.

    XXXXXXXXXXXX

    @San – “I think in their haste to “break down the relationship to build it up” they will end up shifting something fundamental that used to make their relationship special.”

    —— I agree, Sam. I see fundamental changes to Dean as a result of Carver’s vision. For me, he has already broken something b/c I don’t have much desire to see the boys work out their issues or even work together. I’m not sure why they are together. If this show were real, I think they would be separated and stay separated, and that seems to be the best for them.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 8, 2014 @ 4:37 am

  197. JT I understand your last point re the writers but this can be a double edged sword, for the die hard brother fans it can lead to not wanting to watch anymore and for the new watchers they need to keep good episodes i.e. good stories to keep them watching and I think that focussing on the angst is not going to keep them in as would a good exciting episode. They have probably got away with it in this episode as taking out the beginning and end “talk” it was IMO quite good. We have had a lot of ret conning in previous episodes i.e. Dean blaming Sam for not having a Soul when Dean had very clearly said Sam was not at fault etc. I know it was under a rage spell but he did say it and it was a WTF moment. We could go on and on (and many have!) about what each has said to the other, hurtful and nasty at times, however IMO apart from where the writers have ret conned most of what has been said has been in context and understandable. So we can say that the writers have ret conned with Sam in this except we can’t really because we have not heard Sam say differently previously except perhaps for the stopping him closing the gates. Don’t think I am being very clear but hope you get my meaning. I got past the Sam not looking for Dean by just not believing it (head in the sand) but I didn’t enjoy the majority of S8, just took the bits I enjoyed and watched those. Like a lot of people I was happy at the end of S8, it was a really positive way to get them back to each other.
    Also I keep hearing posters going on about, not closing the gates of hell, breaking the first seal and on and on but it is IMO nonsense. The yellow eyed demon would have opened the gates of hell anyway, he had his soldier and if Sam and Dean had not tried to stop him, well he would be alive and doing evil plus the gates would be open. Breaking the first seal, if they had not had Dean to do it then I am sure they could have found another righteous man to break to do it, it fitted the story that it be Dean because he was Sam’s brother and makes the story more effective. Again if Sam had not let Lucifer out then someone else would have. What I am trying to say is that Dean bringing Sam back did not set off all the disasters that followed, they would have happened anyway but without them trying to do as much defeating of evil as they could. I know this is a digression but a lot of people have been going back to the beginning to justify what Dean did and said or what Sam did and said and referencing this and that to make their point – just saying.

    Comment by Icarus — February 8, 2014 @ 4:44 am

  198. @184- Sarah, both you and T1gerlilley seemed to be accusing me of stating something that I explicitly did NOT say i.e. that I was somehow upset at Sam being upset with Dean’s actions this season. I took offense to that because I have REPEATEDLY stated that Sam had EVERY right to be upset at Dean about that.
    The Sam comments that I objected to, and I’m pretty sure I made this clear also, was this idea that absolutely EVERYTHING Dean ever did was only for himself, that Dean didn’t mind making sacrifices when HE wasn’t the one being hurt, nevermind how much he HAS been hurt because of sacrifices he made, and this insane notion that Dean needs Sam just so that he won’t be alone. Any man with the looks and charm of Dean Winchester (or Sam too) DOESN’T have to be alone unless they want to.
    The reason I thought you were both attacking me? Because you both specifically addressed me. Others here called Sam a dick, said they hated him right now, and told him to f-k off. Yet your rant wasn’t addressed to any of them, and I said NONE of those things.
    I keep getting made fun of by some of you because it seems to me how some of you hate Dean, yet some of these posts seem to strongly indicate that, especially T1gerlilley, for whom Dean can NEVER seem to do ANYTHING right. I don’t really care if you hate Dean, as that’s your prerogative and he’s not even a real person, but when the same people are constantly putting him down, you can’t blame me for believing that.

    Comment by roxi — February 8, 2014 @ 6:37 am

  199. @198- I didn’t mean you specifically Sarah as far as hating Dean,,because you stated that you didn’t.

    Comment by roxi — February 8, 2014 @ 6:47 am

  200. @187-
    Yes, Dean WAS wrong to override Sam’s wishes and take his choice away. Hopefully he will begin to realize how wrong he was in doing that.
    But I still find it hard to believe you have watched this entire series, and you don’t believe Dean has EVER truly loved Sam? Well then, that amazes me. Because I’ve seen a very flawed man who has done wrong things and is way too possessive and bossy yes, but the love has always been blatantly obvious, at least to me and many others. Dean definitely needs to learn much better ways to show it, but the love itself I find hard to believe that any regular longtime fans don’t see. The whole SPN concept has been built around that love.
    You say Dean lives for nothing else but his family. Maybe that’s because the SPN writers, and most of the other characters, have pushed the idea that living for Sam is the ONLY reason Dean has for existing, that he has no worth or value of his own.
    I for one wish that this concept would change, and these writers would see the same bravery, good heart, intelligence, and value that they have always seen in Sam.

    Comment by roxi — February 8, 2014 @ 7:03 am

  201. @187- Oh and by the way Tim, it was NEVER implied that Dean was pissed at Sam for going to Stanford in itself, just hurt that for the whole time Sam was there he completely turned his back on Dean, never calling him, never writing him.
    As for Flagstaff, Sam ran away on Dean’s watch. Dean was still just a kid himself, and the implication was that when John got back, he beat the hell out of Dean, or at the very least was severely pissed at him and blamed it all on HIM. And you don’t think Dean had a right to be resentful about that?

    Comment by roxi — February 8, 2014 @ 7:29 am

  202. Roxi, dude, I asked you a question is all. Because I don’t understand how you think Sam should have talked to Dean. I tried to be really clear that I wasn’t making any assumptions and just wanted to hear what you had to say.
    Instead of answering you curse me out and say I hate Dean. Seriously, dude?
    I hope you’re just having a bad day or something.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 8, 2014 @ 11:40 am

  203. Like I agree with Lisa that the writing was unclear and that what you take out of their conversation depends somewhat on the assumptions you put into it.
    But I don’t think you can say that Sam was super harsh or went for the jugular. Hell, with Sam we’ve literally seen him go for the jugular and he wasn’t even throwing punches -this time – literally or metaphorically. That’s why I tried to provide the contrast with worse stuff he could have said. I mean, if I can come up with that in three minutes – think how much worse professional writers could have made it with weeks to work on it?

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 8, 2014 @ 11:49 am

  204. OK, I think I need help. I’m still super depressed at this point of the show, and it’s still freaking three weeks away. I’m counting on it to get better after this break.

    But not sure what to do in the meantime…

    Comment by Tammy — February 8, 2014 @ 1:07 pm

  205. Watch the Winchester Xmas epi – that’s definitely one of the highlights of the bro bond. Lots of warm fuzzies.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 8, 2014 @ 1:13 pm

  206. True. Thanks, tigerlilly. It’s a great one. It’s going to be so bittersweet to see the boys as they were though.

    After watching it, I definitely need to focus on ‘real’ life! (Not sure what it is about this show that’s gotten me so emotionally involved. Never happened before.)

    Comment by Tammy — February 8, 2014 @ 1:19 pm

  207. @202- First off, I’m not a dude. Secondly, the question you addressed to me was in reference to a statement that I NEVER made. And third, since you have done nothing but rag on Dean now for months, what else am I supposed to think but that you strongly dislike him? You NEVER have ONE positive thing to say about him, and have over and over posted about what a huge fuckup he is.
    If you dislike him, fine, that’s your prerogative, but why rag on me for merely pointing it out?

    Comment by roxi — February 8, 2014 @ 2:21 pm

  208. @202- And if you seriously think that I “cursed you out”, I feel that you are way too sensitive. I didn’t call you names or insult your intelligence.

    Comment by roxi — February 8, 2014 @ 2:24 pm

  209. We are getting back to the angel storyline next episode. I’m really trying to understand why we should care about that storyother than the fact that the boys have a score now to settle with Gadreel and Metatron. But mostly, I feel that this is Cas’s story. Hate the fact that Snookie is in this episode. What, are Jared and Jensen now considered too old for the CW dynamic, that they have to bring in stuff they feel will appeal to the painfully young crowd? I am looking forward to seeing the Ghostfacers though.
    That being said, after everything that’s going on right now a comedy episode just feels wrong. I know that historically, their really funny episodes always ended on a very serious note that related to the more serious storyline, but since JC and these current writers seem to have amnesia when it comes to the history of the show, I’m not optimistic, but maybe it will turn out to be a pleasant surprise.
    What I really hope is that the bunker is NOT being haunted by Kevin, Bobby, or Mrs. Tran. I really hope that whatever is going on actually ties in to the current storyline, particularly regarding Dean and the mark. I’m still disappointed that Sam hasn’t shown any interest in that. Or Dean for that matter. You’d think it would be of utmost importance to both of them.

    Comment by roxi — February 8, 2014 @ 2:35 pm

  210. I also would like to see how being fully human now affects Sam. Will he be stronger, a better hunter? Will his legendary genius status somehow be compromised?
    I think it would be awesome to discover that it wasn’t the demon blood that made him all these great things, but his own human abilities. I actually hope he will be stronger as a result
    This is what I see taking place before us: Sam is getting and will continue to get stronger, while Dean will spiral and break, hitting rock bottom because he’s beginning to believe that his whole life as been a lie, that he really HASN’T done the good in the world he used to comfort himself by believing that he did This is when I feel he will start to turn dark and yes, evil. I feel his spirit is breaking.
    No matter what Sam told him or what a terrible place they are in right now, I really want to believe that Sam’s love for Dean will come back to the surface when the moment comes and that he will find he can’t turn his back, or heart, away from Dean, and will save him. I don’t see this as an “immature” thing.
    But it’s true that Dean will have to learn how to love Sam in a far less controlling and suffocating way, one that allows him to relinquish his grip on Sam while also learning to love himself a little and start to think of his own needs/wants as well.

    Comment by roxi — February 8, 2014 @ 3:17 pm

  211. I’m reading Weechester fanfics this weekend, a happy, loving, bi-bro place even with the angst. I don’t know if I’ll be back to break-my-heart central.

    Comment by RS — February 8, 2014 @ 4:52 pm

  212. Just a FYI – Jensen’s My Blood Valentine is showing on the IFC channel tomorrow at 8:45 EST.

    Comment by animal — February 8, 2014 @ 5:22 pm

  213. Roxi – I don’t know what you’re talking about. I asked ” @roxi –
    I kinda have to echo Sarah. What, specifically, do you think Sam should have said to Dean? I won’t put words in your mouth. I won’t make assumptions. I’m just asking straight out.
    How should that conversation have gone?”
    I didn’t reference any statement you made so I really don’t know where you’re getting that.
    Also, another question. Exactly what has Dean done since last season’s finale that I should be cheerleading? Yes I think he’s made a series of mistakes and I’ve thought since the beginning of the season he might be going dark. Honestly, saying how great Dean is right now would have been like standing around going ‘chug, chug’ for Sam when he was drinking gallons of demon blood. You can have sympathy for the character and understand that he thinks he’s doing the right thing. But that doesn’t change that he’s making a series of colossal mistakes that will cost him and everyone around him in the end.
    You say that you recognize that Dean has done the wrong thing, even if he was well intentioned, but somehow anybody actually pointing that out to Dean, even as it says in the transcript [very softly], is somehow ‘crushing’, ‘harsh’ and ‘going for the jugular’. Well, I’m sorry if you think precious baby Dean can’t handle the truth – but really, that’s a lot more insulting than anything Sam said to him. Winchesters are tough. Dean doesn’t need to have Sam say he loves him and appreciates everything he’s done for him. He already knows that. He knows Sam cares or he’d just be walking away like he did with John. Compared to the fights we know Sam had with his Dad, this is like nothing. Sam doesn’t even seem really mad – more just disappointed.
    I understand where Lisa is coming from in saying Sam could have been clearer and more on target with what he said. But you just seem to be making stuff up. Sam never said Dean was selfish or half the other things you said he did.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 8, 2014 @ 6:39 pm

  214. @213_ I didn’t make ANYTHING up. What you and Sarah seemed to specifically be referring to was people being upset at Sam for being upset at Dean for having Gadreel possess him and the lies, and I have ALWAYS said that Sam had every right to be upset about THAT. I WASN’T the one who called Sam names, nor did I express anger about him being pissed about what Dean did with Gadreel and the lies, so I still have no idea why the two of you were targeting me.
    And I NEVER stated that you should be happy with Dean right now. Dean is screwing up HUGELY right now, and I’m pretty sure I have stated that as well.
    I am referencing the fact that for the last year, you have been making posts basically insinuating that NOTHING Dean has EVER done, not just right now, but the ENTIRE series from the very beginning, has EVER been right, that he’s been nothing but a failure and a fuckup from the getgo. You have given understanding to Sam and Cas for THEIR fuckups, ( and Cas’s were the biggest) while trampling Dean for his.
    Someone who does that obviously strongly dislikes the character, which is your prerogative, so what,but why don’t you just be honest about it instead of ragging on me for merely acknowledging it? If people were doing that in regards to Sam or your beloved Cas, would YOU not think the same thing? So why not just admit it instead of putting me down for pointing it out?
    And again, why are you directing the “crushing, ‘harsh’ and “going for the jugular” remarks to me? I wasn’t the one who made them! We had someone tell Sam to fuck off, another call him a dick, and yet another say they were hating him right now and yet still, it’s only ME that you’re ragging on? Why not THEM?
    As for why I felt Sam was calling Dean selfish well, I don’t know how YOU define being accused of selfishness, but to me, when you tell someone that EVERYTHING, EVERY sacrifice they’ve ever made has been ONLY for themselves, that they don’t mind sacrificing if THEY’RE not being hurt, well yeah, I define that as accusing someone of being selfish. Sure SOME of Dean’s behavior has no doubt been selfish, but ALL of it?
    Being picked apart on meat hooks in Hell for 40 years? Real selfish. Giving up the chance to have a normal childhood,adolescence, ANY personal happiness? Again, I suppose in your view, that’s selfish. I don’t see that as me “babying” Dean or slamming Sam.
    And then there’s this utterly laughable idea that Dean has to hold on to Sam, not because he loves him, but because he’s terrified of being alone. Yeah, like any man with the looks and charm of a Dean OR Sam Winchester would be a lonely loser without their sibling. Dean might possibly DRIVE someone away after a time with his personality flaws, but there would be no shortage of people willing to be by his side. He doesn’t need his brother just for this purpose.
    And why the hell SHOULDN’T BOTH guys tell eachother they love and appreciate eachother once in a blue moon?
    I think we’re done.

    Comment by roxi — February 8, 2014 @ 9:14 pm

  215. Tigerlilly, I watched season 1′s HellHouse as I couldn’t bear ANY brotherly angst at the mo (re AVSC). As I said, was v bittersweet. Not just for the recent stuff between them, but also, to see them and know what life has in store, and how its going to break them. (Not real, not real…)

    Group hug to all the folks who are as distrssed and disturbed by our show developments. <3

    Comment by Tammy — February 8, 2014 @ 11:29 pm

  216. Try mystery spot too – Sam is so desperate to save Dean, it’s really sweet. Plus it’s a funny ep. Or the French mistake – no angst there and Misha is hilarious.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 9, 2014 @ 1:27 am

  217. @214 roxi. Re: “Giving up the chance to have a normal childhood,adolescence, ANY personal happiness?”

    I’m not really comfortable with that reading because it puts Dean in an ever suffering and sacrificing position. In Bad Boys, Dean could have been happy having a father figure, a girlfriend, doing well in school, hobbies, gearing up for his dream job but he left instead because Sam made him happier. John said: “You took care of Sammy, you took care of me. You did that, and you didn’t complain, not once.” I think that was an inner thing for Dean, not just him giving up everything and sacrificing himself. One of his happiest memories was comforting his mother when she had had a fight with John. He tells that looking after Sam is not just his job but kind of who he is.

    Comment by ~ San ~ — February 9, 2014 @ 2:23 am

  218. @ 217- But San, people like T1gerlily paint Dean as having only the most entirely selfish motives for looking after and saving Sam, basically,reducing ANYTHING Dean has EVER done to merely being all about himself. Is that what YOU see? If so, then that reduces Dean’s entire life as just being a totally selfish, narcissistic asshole. Why the hell then should any of us give a rat’s ass about Dean if that’s the case?
    The version of SPN that I’ve personally witnessed paints Dean Winchester as an extremely flawed man who, yes, can and has been a total prick and asshole at times, but still has a strong love and dedication for his little brother. I would NEVER have been drawn to a character who was portrayed as a totally self-absorbed dick, the way Dean is now being claimed to be by some SPN fans. He certainly is very fucking far from being totally good and perfect, but come on, so much here and on other site seems like a total condemnation of the character.’If either Dean OR Sam had been that, NOBODY would have been drawn into SPN in the first place.

    Comment by roxi — February 9, 2014 @ 5:03 am

  219. 50 years ago, a musical, social, and cultural revolution was born.

    Comment by roxi — February 9, 2014 @ 6:33 am

  220. New York City, February 1964.
    Need I say more?

    Comment by roxi — February 9, 2014 @ 6:36 am

  221. Everyone is still talking about what who is right and who is wrong — the same thing that people have talked about since 9.01 aired.

    What this season’s story has done is reduce Dean down to one characteristic — a needy dick who cannot live without his brother, and Sam as a victim of Dean’s neediness.

    Have you considered what the story would be if Dean had not made the best decision of two bad options? If Dean had not allowed the possession, Sam would have been either Metatron’s bitch in Heaven or Abaddon’s bitch in Hell, leaving Sam still a victim — a damsel in distress that needs rescuing.

    I wished Dean would have let Sam die, and then we would actually have a season about the supernatural, instead of a melodrama about hurt feelings and a look at the emotional journey of two grown men trying to reach emotional manhood.

    Comment by Sheri — February 9, 2014 @ 7:00 am

  222. Well the message has always been that when Sam and Dean work together, they can accomplish just about anything. It made perfect sense that Dean would be confused why Sam wanted to die for good and felt that he needed to stop it. There might have been a way to work even the possession thing to their advantage. If Sam’s memories had not been continuously wiped, him, Dean, Cas and Kevin could have monitored the situation.

    @roxi. I’ve seen you write before how Dean has given up on any personal happiness etc. and it just gives the impression that you think Dean feels he has to sacrifice his life for Sam when in fact so many times it has been shown that Dean would rather have his brother than anything else.

    RE: “And then there’s this utterly laughable idea that Dean has to hold on to Sam, not because he loves him, but because he’s terrified of being alone. Yeah, like any man with the looks and charm of a Dean OR Sam Winchester would be a lonely loser without their sibling. Dean might possibly DRIVE someone away after a time with his personality flaws, but there would be no shortage of people willing to be by his side. He doesn’t need his brother just for this purpose.”

    Well he sure as hell won’t want to do a repeat of Lisa and Ben. So he holds on to those people that he has and can have.

    Comment by ~ San ~ — February 9, 2014 @ 7:27 am

  223. @221- Sheri, I think that Dean can’t win, no matter what he does. If he saves Sam he’s a dick.I f he DOESN’T save Sam he’s a dick
    @222- You’re right that Dean has been show to always prefer to have Sam than not. But why?
    Are you agreeing that Dean is a pathetic, lonely loser that MUST have his little brother there by his side?
    Then San, it seems that you too, feel that Dean has no worth or value outside of Sam.

    Comment by roxi — February 9, 2014 @ 7:54 am

  224. Nope. Just that Dean isn’t sacrificing his chance at happiness for Sam. Dean gets out the relationship just as much as Sam does.

    Comment by ~ San ~ — February 9, 2014 @ 8:00 am

  225. I wish that was true. I want Dean to find validation outside of Sam. But the SPN writers seem to think Dean has NO worth or value outside of that relationship.

    Comment by roxi — February 9, 2014 @ 8:10 am

  226. @roxi. Of course Dean has worth and is capable of being with other people other than Sam (umm even though I’m sure he’s difficult to live with…)

    But I still maintain that who we are is primarily shaped by our childhoods and circumstances. So he CAN live with other people, but does he WANT to?

    Having become a sort of caregiver for Sam at the age of four, looking after Sammy has become hardwired into him. It hasn’t been fair, but this is who Dean is now, and this is what he wants. JMO.

    Comment by Tammy — February 9, 2014 @ 8:26 am

  227. My personal feelings are that the ‘brother bond’ is mythical; something made up in fandom and not supported by what has been shown in the show, especially the co-dependency that Dean supposedly has. For me, that is a major flaw in the story being told, but what I am doing here is throwing out my perspective on what has been shown as opposed to the mythical brother bond.

    In S1, after having been separated (and on his own) during Sam’s college years, Dean came to get Sam to help him find their dad. Dean hears and lets go of Sam’s poisonous words about family throughout the season, because Dean thinks he is keeping his promise to John to take care of Sam and Sam is in need of it now with the loss of Jessica in the same manner as they lost their mother. Dean does state that he wants his family back, but it is not because he cannot live without Sam — he has already.

    In S2, Dean sees and pretty much ignores Sam’s sniping, because he is reeling from his father’s death and he is drowning in guilt because of John’s sacrifice.

    In S3, Dean pretty much dismisses all of Sam’s whining. He feels that he has kept Sam safe, thus fulfilling his promise to John and his concern is to make Sam see that he has a future without Dean.

    When Dean is resurrected in S4, he sees that all of his sacrifices for Sam have been worthless. Sam is headed down a bad path. Dean’s efforts were to save Sam from that bad path, not selfishly try to get him to stay close in Dean’s pocket.

    In S5, Sam choosing a demon, something that had ruined both of their lives, over him. Dean walks away and is determined to stay away until Zach tries to manipulate the brothers’ love for each other and use it against them. In the end, that love is what saved the world, and it was a consistent story for Dean in having a willingness to let go of Sam.

    In S6, Sam is the one who shows up after a year. Dean went about trying to figure out what Sam’s problem was and solve it. he had tried to find a way to save Sam from an eternity of torture, but he also saw his obligation to Lisa and Ben to keep evil away from them. And, once again, once Dean found out what Sam’s latest problem was, he went about saving Sam’s soul so that he would not be a monster. He was also willing to kill Sam if he could not, because a skilled hunter like Sam who has lost all of his humanity is a monster and an endangerment to humans.

    In S7, Gamble cut Dean’s balls off in order to pump up Sam and Dean didn’t do much of anything except wallow in alcohol, drugs, and depression because he felt his whole life had meant nothing. The season was full of fanfic stories (and I mentioned that more , than once on this very board), and I think this is where the idea that Dean could not live without Sam, Gamble’s idea of the only BDH on the show, started to heavily emerge.

    And then in S8, Carver played forward this idea of co-dependency that had long been established in fandom (not in canon)even more extreme than Gamble had. And the reason he did that is because he does not know what the story has been or the characters.

    And that is why I call it a “mythical brother bond,” and why I think that is the biggest myth the show has ever propagated. With this season, that ‘brother bond’ is set in concrete in both the fans’ minds and in canon.

    Comment by Sheri — February 9, 2014 @ 8:53 am

  228. Sheri–We read the first few years differently. To me Dean was intrigued by Sam. Dean said all the “college boy” putdowns, but to me Dean admired Sam’s independence. Dean wanted Sam to hunt with him. Sam was often a pain in the ass to Dean, but Dean found a brother and family in Sam. I do think there was a real bond. And, Sam clearly thought Dean was much too judgemental, a bit backward culturally, and a refelection of Daddy more than having developed his own personality. Sam however liked Dean’s mechanical skills, his self-confidence, his ability to act and not be frozen by ambiguity and gray areas.Sam appreciated Dean’s protectiveness even though he at the same time restented the “little brother” treatment. Neither Dean or Sam was presented as a one dimentional character.There attitudes toward each other were complex (Krepki knew how to write that). A powerfful complex bond did develop and that is what hooked much of the audience IMO.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 9, 2014 @ 9:33 am

  229. @Sheri. I gave asked you this before, and you replied. But forgive me, it is not not clear to me WHAT you consider this non existent (to you) brotherly bond to be, and why you consider it mythical.

    To me, the bond is the extreme love that the brothers have for each other, and the way they’re willing to do anythibg for each other. Yes, both of them. Sam has behaved selfisfly at times, and sometimes he has been oblivious to Dean’s POV or issues. Bit I think that is due more to the younger brother/almost parent child relationship they have, NOT a lack of love on either side.

    Season 1, you mention his poisonous words. Did you forget Faith? Telling John that the job doesn’t come before everything, looking at Dean?

    In season 2, his stubborness in
    not letting go of Dean in IMTOD? Generally being a team I would say most of the season, and I found the bond v much there.

    Season 3, his crazy and obssessivr search to find a way out if the deal? To the point of turning them both into monsters?

    Season 4, Sam was a mess, and tried everything to get Dean back.

    And so on.

    I’m not getting what you mean, Sheri. Honestly.

    Comment by Tammy — February 9, 2014 @ 9:34 am

  230. @roxi: Yep, 50 years ago today…been uploading all my cd’s to my computer and tablet so I’ll have their music with me everywhere! “Oh bla di, oh bla da, life goes on…..”

    Comment by twinter — February 9, 2014 @ 10:56 am

  231. And I’m gonna say, this episode really broke my heart. I agree with those who said Sam should of just stuck with the Gad thing, but to go into other areas “You only sacrifice when you won’t get hurt”…hurt my heart. It’s like a slap to the face of all what Dean has sacrificed for Sam his whole fracking life. Sam did not come out looking good here, and I’m surprised people think he did. Just MHO.

    Comment by twinter — February 9, 2014 @ 10:59 am

  232. @226- Yes, you and I believe that Dean has worth outside of existing for Sam, but apparently, JC and his awful stable of writers don’t.

    Comment by roxi — February 9, 2014 @ 11:08 am

  233. Wow roxi-you kinda got beaten up by these posters about how you see Dean. I disagree with them and you actually about the stance on Dean being needy and the co dependency he supposedly has on Sam. The only dependency I see is that Dean only having Sam’s back and wanting Sam to have his back in return. Which is understandable in the world they life in. Dean has let Sam go on his own on many occasions. I just watched Good Gawd Yal from season 5. Dean was more than willing to let Sam go then. I think it would behoove these posters to go watch this so called Co dependency in that episode -there is none. If Dean needed him so badly to complete his life he never would have agreed to let him go. So I agree with Sheri that that part of their relationship is not Canon but head canon by the fandom. Dean is very independent and needs his brother alive but not necessarily with him physically. He likes to have there but he doesn’t need him for his happiness. For fighting the good fight-which he states-yes but not for fulfillment.

    Which brings me to this episode and the final scene. I kinda had an epiphany about it in church of all places. Yes it stems from back on 9×01 again-sorry but it does. The writers wrote that episode as a pro-life, pro choice situation. Hell they screw with the Catholic faith all the time and poke at it so why not this issue as well. Though most of the fandom has missed this. They see it more as a free will thing but its not. Dean represents the pro life- He saved Sam because Sam would be totally healed from his affliction and he would be “normal” again-no disease-no remaining trial after effects. Sam on the other hand is pro-choice. He chose to die therefore he should be able to die if he chooses.

    This then brings us to this episode and the last scene that has everyone in an uproar. Dean does not feel guilty about his decision to save Sam’s life-He says this-He says he would do it again. He feels upset/pissed/mad/disappointed that Sam feels the way he does about what Dean has done his whole life-which is put Life before anything else. Sam on the other hand is upset/pissed/mad/disappointed that Dean doesn’t understand Sams desire to make his own choice.
    In this situation the writers have effectively brought on all these debates and have kept the fandom talking. I think this fandom is very gullible. I mean I have seen so many posters think the last released extended trailer is strictly for Captives. It really isn’t Captives exclusively but sooooo many in the fandom think so just because its on the same trailer labeled Captives. It really amazes me. I mean do you really think Carver is going to put Snooky, and the Ghostfacers, and Crowley and Cas in the same episode?? Gawd no. Snooky will bring her own fanbase with her as will the ghostfacers. The writers want to spread the ratings. They would never put them all in the same episode. Cas and Crowley yea but the other two -no way.

    Comment by animal — February 9, 2014 @ 11:43 am

  234. As for Dean being bossy and rude and all the other accusations -bogus-He is the leader-Leaders lead. Someone has to and Sam and Dean had established long ago that Dean would do the leading and Sam would follow. Frankly I think Dean is a fantastic leader because he asks Sam all the time about what he thinks they should do and asks for Sams input into each case. I don’t see a dysfunctional brother relationship at all. I just see two guys -two brothers who view the world differently do to there circumstances growing up and what they have been thru. Dean knows family-he understands it. He lives and breaths it. He believes family is the only thing that has your back in life. Sam on the other hand doesn’t understand family because he never was truly in a real family setting. Therefore he is independent to a point but leans heavily on Dean. He has been the one to come back for the most part when the two split up. And has gone of the tracks when separated.

    I am curious where these writers will take these brothers now. How will they reunite them in thinking on a more “mature” level. Because frankly I think that is bogus as well. They ARE mature -they just come from a different belief system.

    Comment by animal — February 9, 2014 @ 12:07 pm

  235. @233- Animal, I think it’s laughable that Dean’s only reasons for saving Sam are because he is terrified of being alone. But that’s how the SPN writers see him.
    I always see comments on how Sam gets the short end of the stick and the writers don’t care as much about him. I am always puzzled by that, because to me, it’s the total opposite. I feel it’s DEAN who always gets the short end and that the writers don’t care as much about HIM.After all, the have written Sam as the smart one, the chosen one, the ONLY one capable of saving the world, and the only one capable of conducting a normal, non hunting life successfully, while painting Dean as desperate to hold on to his little brother at all costs, because you know, THAT’S the only thing the character is good for. I wish it would be different.

    Comment by roxi — February 9, 2014 @ 5:09 pm

  236. If Sam and Dean were hunting partners but not brothers, would their relationship be significantly different? No and yes, in my opinion.

    Many police officers and soldiers speak of their partners and buddies as “brothers” and mean it. They’re men are more than willing to go to any length to take care of their “brothers,” even at the cost of life and limb. In fact, should a fellow soldier beg his “brother” to let him die, the “brother” might refuse to do it. As hunting partners, Sam and Dean seem no different from such men.
    .
    However, the Winchesters are different in that they’re also brothers by blood. Unlike “brother” police officers and soldiers, blood brothers have no choice but to care about one another. The Cain/Abel story is memorable largely because Cain failed to show the protectiveness and loyalty we expect from the fraternal relationship. (As Claudius says of his killing of Old Hamlet, “It hath the primal eldest curse upon’t/ A brother’s murder.”) Not all brothers get along, but for one to kill the other or be indifferent to his suffering shocks and horrifies us. Moral, social, and even biological law demands a far deeper bond between brothers than we expect from “brothers” by choice.

    So, I think we were startled by Sam’s comments to Dean in that episode in a way that would bother us far less if the boys weren’t brothers but simply long time hunting partners. Since Dean can’t NOT be Sam’s brother, when Sam gave him the option of hunting together or being brothers, it was pretty clear that Sam no longer wants to hunt with Dean, possibly because Sam expects (and even hopes} to die when he meets up with Gadreel..

    Anyway, the closing dialogue may simply have been a means of laying the groundwork for the Winchesters to split up for a few episodes. I’m guessing Sam will go after Gadreel with Castiel, while Dean and Crowley hunt down the Queen of Hell. I suppose the brothers could achieve new “maturity” by hunting apart for awhile. (Whatever “maturity” is supposed to mean.) In any case, once the Cain/Abel thing is out of the way, I expect Sam will discover that Dean is the best hunting partner/brother he could possibly have.

    Comment by JT — February 9, 2014 @ 6:41 pm

  237. Sorry for the errors! (Where’s the edit key?)

    Comment by JT — February 9, 2014 @ 6:44 pm

  238. @ CaseyT #228 and Tammy #229: I will answer you both in general. I view the brothers of earlier seasons, when I think fandom canon occurred, as being two separate, but distinct individuals whose problems were nothing more than would be found between two brothers given the circumstances. This is a fictional story with two fictional characters. The story is larger than real life and the characters and their problems are larger than life. They are not real people and; therefore, real life situations cannot be applied to them. They also are in each other’s pocket 24/7, so they are naturally going to have problems with each other and handle things as their distinct personalities would dictate. All of that ran in the background of actual supernatural stories.

    I have never seen Dean be dependent on Sam being at his side as the only reason he lives. What I see, and Animal #234 said it best, is: “Dean knows family-he understands it. He lives and breaths it. He believes family is the only thing that has your back in life.” That is what Dean’s character was built on and through whom the audience viewed Kripke’s premise of the show (and he stated it in many interviews), that family is the thing that pulls people through tough times and the chaos of life. What we saw in the Sam and Dean relationship was that family love Kripke wanted in the show. I think the fandom took what they were seeing and, because the show and the characters are larger than life, assigned the ‘brother bond’ to it. It is not that it was not there, it just was not on the level the fandom took it to. Obviously, now the show has canonized that and in doing so has assigned only one characteristic to each brother: Dean is needy and Sam is still fighting for autonomy. I find it a huge disservice to the show and to the characters, because both have always been so much more than that. Not only that, I think it has the potential of destroying everything that came before, as I explained in an earlier post.

    I do think Sam needs to learn to not be dependent and expect Dean to solve his problems or, more to the point, make Sam a happy person. Sam is not a happy person and he has never been.

    I do not see that for Dean, and because I don’t, I cannot buy into getting on the other side of “co-dependency,” as the writers have stated they are doing this season. In fact, I will be PO’d if at the end of the season, we see Sam say he is sorry for the things he said and Dean say, “No, you were right, Sam. I need to learn blah, blah, blah.”

    Sam just gutted Dean, whether he learns that he was wrong or not. Sam just told Dean that his whole life has been worthless, along with everything he has ever done. How do you come back from that? Dean is a forgiving guy, but I am not. I don’t see a path for them to take Sam now that will regain any trust on my part.

    Since what Sam said was flat out untrue; and that includes the angel possession, because Sam would either be Metatron’s bitch or Abaddon’s bitch had Dean let him die, I don’t know how the writers are going to get out of this one in a way that I will find satisfactory.

    My bigger concern, however, is that they are treading very close to destroying the whole nine years I have watched this show because, if Sam is even a little bit right, then everything that has ever happened on the show is deluded down to family is a bad thing, love is a bad thing, and Dean was wrong in sacrificing anything for his family.

    Comment by Sheri — February 9, 2014 @ 6:46 pm

  239. @ Tammy #229: It occurs to me that I did not answer you specifically enough.

    Each of the points you bring out for the separate seasons is a micro view of points in the story being told; whereas, I am taking a macro viewpoint.

    Faith, for instance, fit right in with the brothers learning to be brothers again. Telling John that the job did not come before Dean fit right in with EK’s basic premise of family as I described in my other post. S3 and Sam’s failure, I think was more about Sam’s failure than it was about the ‘brother bond,’ because that is the season that started Sam’s downhill slide. Sam was a mess in S4 because he could not get Dean out, but Sam needed to be so that he would go down the slide, choose Ruby, break the final seal, and release Lucifer. Not being able to save Dean was a plot tool, more than it was about the brothers but, of course, the love between them had to be there in order for Sam to fall. I don’t see how that can be equated to an issue of co-dependency, though.

    Like I said, we know the brothers love each other, except I haven’t seen that in all of S7 or S8 except in Sacrifice, which has been thrown out the window now. By that I mean, stopping the trials was the right thing to do, but what Sam said about Dean having other friends and Dean reassuring him that he would always put him first doesn’t mean crap now. But loving each other does not equate to co-dependency either, IMO.

    Comment by Sheri — February 9, 2014 @ 7:02 pm

  240. I have read-mainly on this board-a list of so called “Deans Faults”. And frankly they are so off base and wrong and totally missing who Dean is. I saw where you stated Tigerlilly hated Dean. Well NOW she does because destiel is dead and she is po’d at Jensen. So you have to take what she says with a grain of salt at this point anyway.

    The ONLY flaw that I see in Dean at this point in time is his hatred for himself. That is basically because the blame he is putting on himself for Kevin. Which in truth lies on Gad but Dean could have told Kevin so I can see that he would blame himself for that. Thru out the series they have put something on Dean either legitimately or not to cause him to blame himself for whatever plot the writers choose. Johns death, the first seal, torturing, Sam-whatever, Kevins death, Benny’s death. So I see that self loathing as an actual truth to his character. None of the others that poster here list for him are true or understandable.

    The holding on to Sam is a laughable thing these posters have stated. Like I have stated before-Dean has let Sam go plenty of times. Some with Sam going on his own. Others with Dean telling him to go or telling Sam to stay away. I think the “talk” at the end of this episode with Sam stating about Dean doing it for Dean so he doesn’t have to be alone was fanservice only. The writer read stuff on line-they know what a lot of fans are saying is Deans flaws. They like to say “Dean doesn’t like to be alone” which is pure BS. So with the writers having Sam say what he did they know they will correct this later on in the “makeup” talk the brothers will have in the next episode I am guessing. They even had Dean say “alright” and get up from the table in disgust that Sam even said such a thing about him. I really don’t see that scene like a lot of others do. I don’t feel hurt or confused anymore. I do feel Sam was rough but I understand why he was. I also understand where Dean actually is in his head space. He knows what Sam said was wrong but he is po’d that Sam thinks the way he does about him. Thus we had Dean do the old drop the shoulder, do the umph noise and show disgust before he asked Sam to be honest. Dean was fishing at that point. He was fishing to know “FOR SURE” where Sams head space was regarding him. Sam made it clear. He wouldn’t go the extra mile. Life to Sam isn’t worth fighting for. Dean isn’t worth going that extra mile. That’s why I am sooooo interested in where the writers take this now. Because frankly at this point why would Dean stay? Or Sam stay for that matter?? Dean won’t give up on family-he said so-He won’t give up on anything-he said so-to Cain. Sam on the other hand will give up unless Dean is there to carry him thru. Its going to be a ride these next few episodes I think. I wonder if they will drop Deans Cain mark?? That will pi** me off!! But that is a normal thing for the writers to do with Dean the character. We’ll see.

    Comment by animal — February 9, 2014 @ 7:09 pm

  241. Animal – I suppose I should be impressed that you aren’t indulging in hate-filled, all-caps ranting like last year. Though apparently, you still can’t resist saying untrue things to try and make your argument by denigrating others.
    I have no problem with Jensen. He treats people well and is a terrific actor – what’s not to like?
    Destiel isn’t dead. The first annual Destiel convention is this June. The podcast is terrific. And despite a LOT of people leaving the fandom at the end of last season, we’re still beating every online poll – though we might lose the Geekiary poll to teen wolf, because, well, Sterek is awesome and they’ve absorbed a lot of ex-supernatural fans. But the upside is that Geekiary is being a lot more stringent about cheating and said they recorded something like 100,000 unique hits for Destiel. That’s a nice chunk of active online fandom even if we lose.
    I guess it’s easier to deal with the points I’m making if you can reduce them to me ‘hating’ Dean or being ‘pissed’ at Jensen. Or by trying to link the fact I’m a shipper to my opinion as though that automatically invalidates it.
    I never bought into the bi-bro/Wincest headcanon that the Winchesters had this all-consuming, intense, brother bond (a term coined by Wincest shippers to contrast with the ‘profound bond’ which is show canon between Dean and Cas) that was so perfect that it was outside the bounds of moral behavior. This view has been around a long time, and you can see why from the Wincest point of view- it’s kind of necessary to justify an incestuous relationship. That’s also where the codependent view of the brothers started – specifically the canon quote about the brothers being ‘erotically codependent’, which was included as an inside joke by Sera Gamble to Eric Kripke about Wincest – and Wincest shippers picked that up and propagated that as the ideal model of the brother relationship. You don’t have to take my word for it – go look up the Wincest page of the SPN wiki. I’m not really sure why bi-bro fans bought into this version of the relationship, except maybe that it kept the spotlight firmly on the brothers and sidelined Cas, whom many saw becoming more popular with a certain amount of disdain or alarm. Certainly a lot of Wincest fans are careful about revealing themselves. So I think a lot of bi-bro fans just bought their arguments – hook, line, and sinker, without really thinking about what they implied, because they were blissfully unaware of the shipping subtext. (I’m not a Wincest shipper, but this is kind of Richard III ‘oh how was woman won’ sneaky-smart impressive. Destiel fans are super nice, but they’re about as sneaky as a basket full of puppies).
    I see the relationship between the brothers as a realistic, and sometimes rocky, sibling relationship – incredibly valuable, central to their lives, but too complex to be reduced to ‘Dean always sacrifices for Sam’ or ‘Dean is totally selfish’. I think their relationship – and the characters themselves – have taken a lot of damage over the course of the show. I don’t expect them to be perfect – but I do think they’ve made a lot of mistakes lately and that the trust between them is broken. I really think you don’t have to throw the baby out with the bath water – even if it isn’t the perfect ‘brother bond’ you had invested in, the relationship between the Winchesters is truely a brotherhood – with all the love, pain, mistakes, and hard work of any close relationship. The characters are also complicated. But I’d like to see some character development. I’m not invested in the show being exactly as it was in any of its previous seasons.
    I’m ok with the show changing. Whether Dean goes dark or Sam ups and leaves…as long as the writing is good and the acting is good – I’m ok with it.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 9, 2014 @ 10:00 pm

  242. Ugh. Long post deleted.

    @Sheri. Anyway, was thanking you for explaining.

    I agreed with some of your post, not so with some. To me, the show HAS been about the brotherhood, and the two fighting evil. To what extend is the bond mythical or really there? I don’t know. I think the writers deliberately throw in a remark there, a forced conflict there, to keep it open for interpretation. Basically, they play us.

    And they’re doing it more than ever this season. Contrary to most posters, I don’t believe he’s out to destroy it (the bond, brotherhood, whatever) but I don’t like his handling of the show. I hated it in the first half of the previous season, and I’m wary now.

    After rewatching and pondering and reading different views, I do not take an extreme view of Sam’s statements. I think it could have been said a thousand times better, but then, would we be having these continuous discussions about it?

    My view is that Sam didn’t mean things the way they first sounded. He wasn’t calling Dean selfish, but was trying to say that you justify saving me to yourself even when it leads to worse things happening. OK, hard to find a kind interpretation of the ‘you’re willing to make the sacrifice when you’re not the one getting hurt’ statement, but maybe he meant the one left behind. I know i’m stretching it. And the last one about not making the same decision, I’m pretty sure he didn’t meant he wouldnt save Dean, but he wouldnt 1. go against Deans wishes and 2. let an unknown angel possess him. Those were the ‘circumstances’. I DO not consider it as further proof of him not looking for Dean, as I think Sam really believed Dean was dead. Super crappy writing again as it was ridiculous, but I cannot believe he wouldnt have looked for Dean if he had the slightest idea that Dean was alive.

    Anyway, the whole point of this l o n g post is that they have deliberate ambiguity in the writing for the sake of drama, and it sucks!

    Comment by Tammy — February 10, 2014 @ 5:49 am

  243. @238- Sheri, the problem I had with what Sam did to Dean had NOTHING at all to do with Sam being angry about the Gadreel possession and Dean’s lies. I still feel that Dean was WRONG, even if in his sometimes distorted perception he felt he had no choice and thought he was acting out of love and meant NO harm to Sam, and I feel Sam had EVERY right to be pissed about that.
    Where I took exception was Sam’s statements that EVERYTHING Dean EVER did was solely for his own selfish reasons. To be sure, Dean is EXTREMELY far from being perfect, and sometimes he DOES have selfish motives. But EVERYTHING Dean EVER did? I’m sorry but that’s just not true.
    And to tell Dean that he has no problem making sacrifices as long as HE’S not the one being hurt? Even though we HAVE seen him be hurt by those sacrifices?
    That was the issue I had.
    I just want to bring up another point: It’s been said that if Dean hadn’t sold his soul in season 2, Sam would have gone to Heaven. I see that point and that may be true, but we’re all forgetting that at that time, Dean was still an atheist. He thought that God, Heaven, and angels did not exist. So I don’t think he should be getting such a bad rap for being “selfish” and keeping Sam from Heaven when he didn’t KNOW there was a Heaven at that time.

    Comment by roxi — February 10, 2014 @ 5:50 am

  244. JT – a split now would make sense but I don’t believe they’re separating. They’re sticking together and NOT being brothers I guess. Stupid and unrealistic I know.

    These writers are do awful, I wonder if there will be any awkwardness to the Sam/Dean scenes when it’s just them. There should be given what Sam said, but the writers may show them getting along fine. They (the writers) are not known for their consistency.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 10, 2014 @ 6:45 am

  245. Also people saw the brotherly bond because of the characters that Jensen and Jared created. Their use of body language, eyes etc.

    Comment by San Summer — February 10, 2014 @ 7:38 am

  246. @241 t1gerlilly. I’d say it’s the other way around. People who were hungry for more Dean/Cas had an incentive to see Sam and Dean’s relationship in a negative light. So they went around saying “death to co-dependecy” in the name of “character development”. Unfortunately, the writers have bought their party line and interpretation. Ironically, the crypt scene is cherished in that fandom. However, if it had been written for Sam and Dean and it was Sam beating Dean to death while Dean held onto him on his knees and saying how he needs Sam (or even how he loves Sam), I’m sure the very same people would shout how it shows a horrible psychological disorder that the boys are suffering from. Now that people are hoping Sam would die away or wonder howcome Sam won’t just leave, Dean/Cas fans are one step closer to having more scenes between Dean and Cas and three leads on the show.

    Comment by San Summer — February 10, 2014 @ 7:39 am

  247. @ roxi #243: I really am not interested in blaming or justifications. My problem is that the show has taken both Sam and Dean to the point where I don’t want them being together, nor am I invested in seeing them together ever again.

    A week later, I am still wanting the season to end with the brothers saying goodbye to each other. Sam can retire to the bunker and embrace his MoL legacy (which removes him from a lead character in the show) and Dean can hunt with lots of different people. That is the logical conclusion that I come to after watching this episode, and that is just messed up. The show is about two brothers, together, fighting evil…or it was until Carver got ahold of it.

    Carver went too far in making this HUGE chance of course in the show, IMO; first, thinking that the relationship needed to change and then damaging it to the length that it has been damaged. What makes him think that he can fix it back to something the fans can believe in again? With this group of writers???

    What makes Carver think Sam can be redeemed from his hateful, cruel words? Sam’s character has spent several years not wanting to be a hunter and now his big thing is that he was ready to die to get out of it. This is a show about hunting and being a hero; a show about family and brotherhood…and Sam wants out. Why should bi-bro fans be invested in a character who wants nothing to do with that? Why should any fan be invested in that if, in fact, they invested in the show BECAUSE of Sam and Dean?

    So, for me the question is not which brother is right or wrong; it is whether or not I like JC’s vision of this show or his vision of the two characters. It is about what exactly are we going to be left with? I have serious concerns about whether or not I am going to like it.

    Comment by Sheri — February 10, 2014 @ 8:53 am

  248. @Sheri. I know you were talking to roxi, but just saying that I still think there isn’t supposed to be hateful intent behind Sam’s words. Not in the mind of these writers (though I’m again reiterating that I HATED his words)

    *****

    He doesn’t think Dean is selfish, but he doesn’t see Sam’s POV. Sam doesn’t want out by dying, but was ready for it as there wasn’t any other viable option. He doesnt dislike being with his brother, but wants some things to be changed between them. He would always save Dean but not if it meant going against his wishes and meant possession by an unknown angel.

    What if the above were true? Would you be ok with them being together then?

    Comment by Tammy — February 10, 2014 @ 9:50 am

  249. @247- Well, I hate the direction Carver has taken SPN too, but Sam wanting out of the hunting life is nothing new. Unlike you though, I don’t see anything at all wrong in Sam wanting to get out of that life. the hardcore hunting side of it. This life of Sam and Dean’s has caused them nothing but tragedy and sorrow,
    taken from them the chance to find lasting true love, caused them both to make terrible mistakes that will weigh on them heavily forever. Sam DID save the world from the Apocalypse, but that too came with a terrible price.
    But Sam doesn’t have to “breakup” with Dean or stop being a lead. The MOL is an ideal setup for the character. He doesn’t have to be in the field, so to speak, he can leave that part to Dean who really takes to it more, while he can work cases with Dean from the intellectual, strategic side.
    Dean eventually forgave Sam for choosing Ruby. I think that Sam will eventually forgive Dean, it’ll just take a bit more time.
    My feeling is that if Cas lied to them both for a year about having been the one to bring Sam back from Hell,about Sam having no soul, bringing the Leviathins into the world, causing Bobby’s death, and DELIBERATELY breaking Sam’s wall, causing him to almost go insane and almost die, and Sam so easily forgave Cas for all THAT, then surely at some point he’ll be able to forgive Dean. At least I hope so.
    That WASN’T meant to be a Cas bashing, all I was doing was trying to make a point.
    As for the Destiel shippers and bi-bro fans at odds, really, I think there’s no reason why Dean and Cas couldn’t have either a romantic natured relationship or just best friends without taking anything away from Sam and Dean’s brotherly relationship. But it’s a moot point anyway, because top dogs at SPN have clearly stated that Destiel was never a possibility. But if they change their minds on that, I will be fine with it. I have no problem with it either way.

    Comment by roxi — February 10, 2014 @ 9:56 am

  250. “So, for me the question is not which brother is right or wrong; it is whether or not I like JC’s vision of this show or his vision of the two characters. It is about what exactly are we going to be left with? I have serious concerns about whether or not I am going to like it.”

    I couldn’t agree more w/you, Sheri!

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 10, 2014 @ 10:10 am

  251. @ Tammy: No, I would not.

    It is not a matter of what Sam meant (that’s fandom); it is a matter of what he said — he was prepared to die, he does not want to be brothers, Dean never did anything in his life that was not selfish, being family has caused everything wrong in their lives, and he would not save Dean under the same circumstances. What he meant is a fan interpretation of what he meant, not is not what he said.

    But that is not the point. I am not interested in a show about the hurt feelings of 30-year old men. I did not think their relationship needed changed, and it didn’t until Carver decided this season it needed to (I guess for a lack of a supernatural story).

    Mostly, I did not start watching a show nine years ago to end up seeing two grown men who were considered heroes, because of the unreal events they dealt with and achieved reach, what would be considered a ‘normal, healthy relationship’ as would be seen in real life. That is BS. I can look out my door and see a buttload of those. I started watching a horror/drama, and that is still what I want to see.

    Comment by Sheri — February 10, 2014 @ 11:43 am

  252. @251. Sheri, to be honest, I agree with you. The rest is wishful thinking (fandom, I guess) on my part.

    What you said about having serious concerns about what we will be left with? Exactly true. Sadly.

    Comment by Tammy — February 10, 2014 @ 11:49 am

  253. Rewatching “the end” today and couldn’t help but see a lot of similarities. So was everyone saying F you to Dean when he said that they weren’t stronger together and that they had to be apart? Everything that Dean said to Sam then was just as hurtful to Sam as anything that was said in this episode. Sam was practically begging Dean to let him back in and Dean just hung up the phone with every intention of never talking to him again. So before everyone wants to beat on Sam, remember Dean has been just as cruel.

    Comment by Sharyn — February 10, 2014 @ 12:44 pm

  254. @ Sharyn: That is just wrong thinking, Sharyn. Dean was keeping Sam away out of love, not hatefulness. The angels were trying to use the love between the brothers against them. Zach was showing Dean what would eventually happen (the line from Sam/Lucifer that ‘they would always end up in Detroit’).

    At the end of The End, Dean did not take the lesson that Zachariah was trying to teach him — that without saying yes to Michael, Sam would say yes Lucifer and Earth would be a total mess with most humans dead. What he did was call Sam to rejoin him, used their love for each other as a strength to stand against both Lucifer and the angels.

    Kripke’s idea was that love was both a strength and a weakness and it is what the show used to be about, but it was the love of family that enabled people overcome all the chaos and problems of life. That was what the first five seasons was all about, and that is what Carver is toying with changing this season.

    Comment by Sheri — February 10, 2014 @ 1:39 pm

  255. @ roxi #249: Yes, Sam could do that, but if he did on the show, he would be in a sense retiring his hero mantel by removing himself from what should be a central role in each season’s mytharc. Hell, that was Bobby’s job, and he was not a lead.

    At this point, I would be thrilled if that is what happens, because I think Dean needs to get far, far away from Sam, but how would the majority of the fans take to that? Not well is my guess.

    It would also be a huge change in the show, because supposedly it is the love between the brothers (the love of family) and them both being top-notch hunters and them both contributing strengths and weaknesses to the partnership that has allowed them to be the best hunters on the planet and able to overcome things like the world coming to an end. That is why I think the writers are playing a very dangerous game with the fans this season, and I don’t know if they have the talent to get past what they have created with this mess.

    Comment by Sheri — February 10, 2014 @ 2:00 pm

  256. I strongly suspect they don’t have the creative talent, Sheri!

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 10, 2014 @ 2:18 pm

  257. @ Lisa1: I don’t think they have the talent either, and I don’t think they give the fans enough credit for being smart enough to see what they are doing. I’m not even sure they see what they are doing.

    Comment by Sheri — February 10, 2014 @ 3:11 pm

  258. @187

    Things CHANGE, as a series in its 9th season SHOULD. I never said that Dean “Never loved Sam”, did I? Nope. Don’t think I did. John told Dean to look after him. And to save him. If he couldn’t he may have to kill him. Dean didn’t resort to that. He tried to save him. But to do so, he sold his soul for ONE YEAR. ONE. He chose, at that point, to sick a band aid on the issue. A 1 year band aid. He essentially fixed the issue momentarily, and then away he goes, and leaves Sam ALONE. And Sam TRIED everything to save Dean in return. I feel like this somehow gets lost upon people. But without his big bro around to help him, he resorted, essentially, to drugs (demon blood) and bad influences (ruby) like so many people do when they lose a loved one.

    I really don’t blame Sam for anything. He was 6 months old and helpless when Yellow Eyes put demon blood in him. And he was born with psychic powers, also not his fault and out of his control. I’m actually quite proud of Sam for redeeming himself and fixing his mistakes by jumping into Lucifer’s Cage. And yet again, someone couldn’t just LEAVE IT ALONE and tried to save him, thus, leading us to the soulless Sam in season 6, AGAIN, not Sam’s fault.

    I mean, EVERY TIME they are close to saving the planet, their co-dependency on each other ruins it and they cause an even bigger issue.

    And that, is the writers doing that, otherwise, the series would’ve been over at season 5.

    I find it refreshing and REALISTIC, that ONE of these brothers, I don’t care which one, is FINALLY realizing that by being so co-dependent on each other, they are risking the rest of the world. I mean, you have a shot at shutting the gates of hell, FOREVER! You have a chance at FINALLY stopping the evil that you’ve been fighting against for 10 years, and YET AGAIN, your co-dependency issues stop that from happening.

    I’m sorry, but it’s about damn time one of these goofballs woke up and realized that they are never going to get anywhere if they keep falling back into this endless cycle of saving each other.

    Heroes RISK THEMSELVES. They sacrifice for the greater good. They’ve both been selfish in the past. Hell, most of the issues besides Yellow Eyes and Lucifer’s original plan to take over, has been THEIR FAULT. They’ve both caused more issues than they originally had to deal with.

    Now it’s freaking time to stop it and save the planet.

    Comment by Tim — February 10, 2014 @ 3:35 pm

  259. Just a side note. I realize after re-reading this that it’s extremely Pro-Sam. I relate to Sam more than I do Dean. I’m the youngest child. I want to carve my own path and not do what everyone else in my family is doing.

    With that being said, I do not hate Dean. I love that character. I love his devotion to family and hunting.

    But the moment your devotion turns into OBSESSION (which I think it has) it’s time to snap out of it and realize when it’s time to let go, break the cycle, and save the world once and for all.

    Unfortunately, with the new details of that God-awful sounding spin off (makes me want to vomit) it sounds to me that for THAT series to exist, it means that Monsters need to still exist as well which means that Sam and Dean aren’t going to stop EVERYTHING. They can stop Hell, which will take care of Demons and all of that, but it doesn’t seem like Monsters will ever go away.

    Comment by Tim — February 10, 2014 @ 3:48 pm

  260. @sheri in hindsight, Dean may have been keeping Sam away because of love, but he still was cruel in the way he handled himself during the phone call. If you watch it, you see the younger brother scared and wanting to come back to the older brother and the older brother telling him no and hanging up on him. We have yet to see what comes from the discussion at the end of “The Purge”. Just like a we need hindsight to see why Dean treated Sam the way he did, I think now we need time to see where this takes us. Sam is very hurt right now and has every right to lash out at the person he was hurt by. We, as viewers, can say that Sam shouldn’t say the things he does for whatever reasons, but in all actuality, Sam isn’t in the wrong. If he is in the wrong, then so is Dean.

    Comment by Sharyn — February 10, 2014 @ 4:13 pm

  261. @ Tim: Dean did not save Sam from Hell — Cas did that and left his soul there. Sam came to Dean (“It’s just better when you are arouond.”)Out of love, Dean got that soul back so Sam would not be a monster that he had to put down. He could have just shot him, I guess, instead of commit suicide to try to make him human again.

    The Leviathians were not the brothers’ fault. That was all on Cas, and Dean paid the price for trying to clean up Cas’ mess.

    Sam did not get Dean out of Purgatory, that was all Dean and Benny. Sam, instead, chose a Dean substitute in Amelia and it was his choice to leave Amelia and return to hunting alongside Dean. He did not return out of co-dependency; he returned out of guilt for leaving Kevin on his own.

    Kevin would have died whether Dean allowed the possession or not. Metatron would have seen to that as a part of his plan to become the new God. If not, then the story would be different than it is now. As it was, Metatron found and used Gadreel as his tool to do that. Dean had nothing to do with Gadreel deciding to change the terms of the original deal.

    If Dean had not allowed the possession, then Sam would be either Metatron’s bitch or Abaddon’s bitch, but I guess Dean saving him from that is a worse fate than being a bitch to supernatural forces — but then I thought that was what the first five seasons of the show was about — not being a bitch to angels or demons. Sam now regrets that he did not finish the trials and self-sacrifice to do so. Well, that would not have saved the angel problem.

    Dean is bitching about Dean not letting him die, yet Sam is well aware of the fact that all the angels are out of Heaven, as well as Abaddon wanting to take over Hell from Crowley, thus making angels, demons and humans bow down to her.

    The only co-dependency issue I see has been a good one working for the brothers’ benefit. EK addressed that and it culminated in Swan Song — the brothers saved the world because it was the both of them that used their love for each other to defeat both Michael and Lucifer — Dean by agreeing to Sam’s plan, but showing up to give Sam nothing but support in his act of redemption, while Sam jumped into the pit.

    So if Sam and Dean’s co-dependency has caused all of the problems in the SPNverse as Sam says and as you say, and that is obviously Sam’s view and your view, then Sam should just leave. Easy solution. I see no reason for him to hang around just to invalidate both of their lives and both of their accomplishments over the past nine years, nor do I see handcuffs attaching him to Dean’s belt loops.

    Comment by Sheri — February 10, 2014 @ 4:16 pm

  262. @260- Yes Dean’s words were hurtful in “The End”. But I counter that by pointing out that what Dean said pertained to the immediate issue, the fact that Sam had chosen a demon over him. He did say that”we’re stronger apart than together” but he also acknowledged that their love for eachother was a tool that the supernatural forces would use against them.
    He did NOT insinuate that EVERYTHING Sam ever did was only for himself. He did NOT claim Sam wouldn’t make sacrifices as long as HE wasn’t the one being hurt, ( which the show has shown is untrue of BOTH of them), he did NOT insinuate that Sam’s ENTIRE LIFE was huge failure.
    If Sam stuck to lashing out about the Gadreel possession and Dean’s lies, I find it hard to believe ANYBODY could fault him for THAT. That is indeed a situation where Sam has EVERY right to be enormously pissed off. But the other things he said seemed unnecessary to me and only to try to hurt Dean as much as he could.
    Again, to those who claim Sam should NEVER forgive Dean, I refer to Cas, who did FAR worse to Sam, yet Sam forgave him quite easily, easier than I thought he should have.

    Comment by roxi — February 10, 2014 @ 5:39 pm

  263. @246 – Actually – I don’t think Destiel fans like the crypt scene very much. For one thing the physical abuse is troubling in the context of a loving relationship. Secondly, the changes that the actors made to the scene dramatically undercut the writing in a really irritating way (whether you’re a Destiel fan or not). Robbie Thompson is really good with plot structure (better even that Carver in a technical way) and themes (as we saw again in first born) and the actors just didn’t understand what they were f*cking with. (Sorry, this still irritates me)
    The irony being that the subtext was still all OVER the episode – so if that’s what they were trying to avoid. Huh. Epic fail.
    At any rate, the best I’ve ever heard about that scene is that some people think Dean saying that he specifically needs Cas, but still not saying he loves him, is a lot more organic to the character and more meaningful. (I think that’s bullshit, but whatever). I’ve never seen it in any of the lists of best Destiel scenes. It’s rarely included in Destiel vids or included in canon-compliant fics.You also don’t hear people talk about it as one of their favorite Destiel scenes in any of the interviews on profound bond radio or the Free2b podcast.
    If you go back and look at my comments on the episode you’ll see it was the first time I posted something really negative about the show, because I thought it was classic queerbaiting, not to mention with blocking and shots directly plagerized from Swan Song. The only good thing about that episode was that it inspired me to pen this spn drinking song based on an old classic:

    101 bodies of Dean on the floor
    101 bodies of Dean
    pick one up, stab it some more
    102 bodies of Dean on the floor.

    Anyway, I just think you’ve got it wrong. Destiel doesn’t live in an either/or world. The only way it’s the brother bond vs the profound bond is if you’re a wincest shipper – in which case Dean’s primary romantic relationship has to be one or the other. Destiel fans are fine with team free will. They have no problem with the brother bond – because a sibling bond and a romantic bond don’t compete. They aren’t the same thing.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 10, 2014 @ 7:13 pm

  264. who sang to a backing track last year12, 2015.The final three sites for the semifinal rotation also were announced and Cowboys Stadium came up a winner again. The Cotton Bowl will be part of the sixbowl rotation, along with the ChickfilA Bowl in Atlanta and the Fiesta Bowl in Glendale, Ariz.The Holiday Bowl in San Diego also bid for a spot in the semifinal rotation, but couldn’t pull the upset.The Rose, Orange and Sugar bowls are already part of the semifinal rotation. The Rose and Sugar will ho

    Comment by www.agradebags.co.uk/ — February 10, 2014 @ 10:28 pm

  265. @263, RE: “Secondly, the changes that the actors made to the scene dramatically undercut the writing in a really irritating way — and the actors just didn’t understand what they were f*cking with.”

    That’s interesting. Are you referring to them changing the “I love you” line or something more? And I agree that it resembled a bit too much Swan Song because if one imagines Sam in Cas’s place it would be like a reproduction (instead of saying he won’t leave Sam, Dean would say he needs Sam etc.)

    I just can’t shake the feeling that some are being disingenuous when they say how disturbing the brothers’ relationship is and how they just want the brothers to overcome this crippling disorder and be healthy since it’s born at least partly out of seeing a roadblock to more Dean/Cas.

    However, now the writers have certainly fanned the flames if they feel like co-dependency is the correct reading on what kind of relationship Sam and Dean have and they are trying to get over it.

    Comment by San Summer — February 10, 2014 @ 11:57 pm

  266. Who in the world would write an “I love you” line between Dean and Castiel anyway? No wonder the actors changed it. It doesn’t make sense for either of them to say that.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 11, 2014 @ 3:58 am

  267. Being bothered by the the brothers having an unhealthy relationship and having it take a front seat in the show to the myth arc and motw seems to be something that exists in every corner of the fandom.
    That’s different from whether you want the show to be about only the brothers or are interested in other characters or relationships the brothers have with those characters – like Bobby, Cas, Ellen, or Adam (remember Adam? You know, the brother they both left in hell?)
    I suspect you see anything other than the brothers as a distraction. For some of us it’s a welcome distraction, since there’s only so much of ‘Heteronatural: white men bickering’ we can take before rolling our eyes and changing the channel. A fact which can be scientifically backed up, as analysis of the season’s retention numbers showed that viewers watched more of the show when Cas was in the episode.
    It’s ironic to me that bi-bro fans are getting tons of (bro-on-bro action? Bro-cum-bro interaction….that doesn’t sound right…) only-bro time, and absolutely hate it.
    I find it ironic that earlier in the season, with more Cas and other side characters, Sheri was really happy with the season – far more than I was. While now she’s furious and I’m like ‘well, at least they’re working on their issues…when’s the next Cas episode’ but I’m not like ‘why am I even watching’ anymore.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 11, 2014 @ 4:05 am

  268. “Adam (remember Adam? You know, the brother they both left in hell?)”

    –This I agree with. I know several here say (will say, have said before) “screw Adam, I don’t care if he’s in hell, good riddance.” But, the problem is, that’s totally out of character for the boys, too. THEY would never say “oh well, screw him,” and one would think that as soon as Cas revealed that HE was the one who got Sam out, they might have brought up Adam to HIM!

    “there’s only so much of ‘Heteronatural: white men bickering’ we can take before rolling our eyes and changing the channel. A fact which can be scientifically backed up, as analysis of the season’s retention numbers showed that viewers watched more of the show when Cas was in the episode.”

    –Not sure how “scientific” that is, since didn’t we have predominantly-Castiel eps over the last two years that *didn’t* get the viewer numbers expected? One might think it has little to do with Cas, and more what the episode plot, acting, and mytharc was doing in that episode.

    “It’s ironic to me that bi-bro fans are getting tons of (bro-on-bro action? Bro-cum-bro interaction….that doesn’t sound right…) only-bro time, and absolutely hate it.”

    –Again, it’s not because “it’s bro time and we discovered we don’t like it.” It’s we don’t like what those episodes are doing. Bad MotW, bad guest star or more arguing that we haven’t liked since Season 5. It’s not the amount of screen time Sam or Dean gets, it’s what the writers DO with it.

    Comment by G-dawg — February 11, 2014 @ 4:41 am

  269. @267. I guess for me there is still a question of which came first the chicken or the egg. As in was this extreme reading on Sam and Dean born in the Dean/Cas circuit and then they reached out to the people who work on show giving them a message how unhealthy the boys are, how tired they are of it, how they want the brothers to mature and develop as characters, how it’s creepy, they are 30-something-years-old etc. etc. And did the people on the show then take notice and go: “Huh, this is what the audience thinks of Sam and Dean? I guess we better change it”.

    Excpet of course they were gonna take the characters to the rock bottom giving legitimate co-dependency dynamic before they reach that mature place Carver has been talking about.

    @Lisa1, I agree. To me the church scene was already a woah moment. The characters aren’t usually about declarations.

    Comment by San Summer — February 11, 2014 @ 4:54 am

  270. Exactly, Sam Summer. In what world would Dean ever declare that he loves Castiel?!?!? That sounds so OOC to me. I’m happy they changed the script!

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 11, 2014 @ 5:51 am

  271. @ t1gerlilly: Don’t bring me into your fanatic shipping. You know that I don’t even think that it is a topic that should be discussed in light of the show. Perhaps your dream (or more like political campaign) will be realized on the spin-off, but here I am going to be very critical in rebuking you using me as an example of your dishonest argument.

    “analysis of the season’s retention numbers showed that viewers watched more of the show when Cas was in the episode.”

    That is entirely not true. The numbers have shown improvement this season, more so because more younger fans have discovered the show because of the TNT showings of past seasons — see JA’s comments at the Critic’s Award show and you will that is what TPTB think. It is not because Cas is now used more in the show.

    Historically, the numbers do not go up or down for Cas episodes, or Charlie episodes for that matter. In fact, they usually drop after a Charlie episode, and that is because who views the next week is a reflection of the episode that preceded it.

    “For some of us it’s a welcome distraction, since there’s only so much of ‘Heteronatural: white men bickering’ we can take before rolling our eyes and changing the channel.”

    I like ‘Heteronatural’. The white men bickering, and dissatisfaction with what is going on now has nothing to do with that. It has to do with destroying the premise of the show and it has to do with destroying one of the lead characters. If one is a Sam fan, then Dean’s character is being destroyed this season. If one is a Dean fan, then one thinks Sam’s character is being destroyed. In either case, it arises from the fact that what we are getting is not only bad storytelling, it is dishonest storytelling.

    Personally, I liked the brother spats in the past. They were honest spats. This season’s spat is not honest. The fans spent a good deal of time trying to figure out what Sam is mad about and now we know. He thinks Dean is selfish, he thinks his brother’s whole life has been one big selfish act because he does not want to be alone. We all know that is groundless BS, and we know that Sam’s actions and words are not anything close to what has happened in the show up until this season.

    And don’t even get me started on Dean. He is being made to look needy and pathetic, but he is also being made to look like a cartoon character. He acts stupid when the plot calls for stupid. I have no idea what his view is about letting monsters live now, and I don’t know why he has nothing to say about Sam’s view of family or what the two brothers have accomplished. Does he agree because he is so guilt ridden and needy? It doesn’t even make any sense to me why the two brothers are together still.

    My problem with this season boils down to the bickering between the brothers IS the story, and that makes it a nighttime soap…and not even a well told soap at that. We were told the season was about angels and demons. What happened to Gadreel? What is going on with the two angel factions? What is Abaddon doing? What is Metatron doing? What is Bartholomew doing? What is Malachi doing (I can’t even remember if he was killed off or not)? What affect is the Mark of Cain having on Dean? Since most of the monsters are reformed because they found unconditional love, is there now no defined good and evil in the world? Is there a quest this season? There is no investment by the Winchesters in a larger supernatural story and there is no urgency as to what is going on outside of Sam and Dean. That is bad storytelling.

    “I find it ironic that earlier in the season, with more Cas and other side characters, Sheri was really happy with the season – far more than I was. While now she’s furious and I’m like ‘well, at least they’re working on their issues…when’s the next Cas episode’ but I’m not like ‘why am I even watching’ anymore.”

    My satisfaction with the earlier part of the show has no correlation with more Cas and more side characters, and you know that. You are being dishonest in your arguments. My satisfaction with the earlier part of the story was because even with Sam possessed, when he was actually around, it was the first time I had liked Sam in years. And Sam as Gadreel was better than Sam has been in years. And there was a promise of a supernatural story wrapped up in the Sam’s possession and Dean’s decisions.

    Remember that? Abaddon seemed to want Dean as a vessel and that connected Dean to the demon war. Sam was possessed by an angel and that seemed to connect Sam to the angel story. Gaddreel seemed to have some affinity towards Dean. Not anymore. It’s all Sam and Dean now and there is NOTHING happening outside of the bickering.

    As far as Cas, I hated his ‘human’ story with him discovering such things as human’s physical bathroom habits and the nature of sex with a reaper. I hated that he worked at a Gas N Sip and has ridden around with Dean for years now in the Impala and the fool didn’t know that cars needed gas.

    Now Cas is being used as the writer’s mouthpiece to tell the audience points that the writers are trying to get across. Since they have taken away the Dean/Cas relationship that I enjoyed very much (more than anything between Sam and Dean in years) and gave it to Sam to keep the shipping fans quiet, I really have no interest in Cas at all. I think I have stated more than a dozen times that I think Misha is a limited actor and that he was damned lucky to get on SPN so that he could do his self-promotion campaign to get a job. I won’t be surprised when they give Cas the angel story, though, since they have to do something with Cas now that he is a third Winchester.

    And I HATED Adam with a passion. I wish to never \hear the name again. He can rot in Hell or have been released by Michael off-screen to live in Heaven with his momma. Unfortunately, with the writers having no creativity left in them at all, I fully expect to see him, Charlie, Garth, Kevin, Mama Tran and every other miserable character this show retains once again (while killing off all good characters that it ever had).

    This is as clear as I can make my feelings, except to say don’t use my name to justify your false arguments and promote your shipping fantasies, because you know exactly what you are doing and how I feel about it.

    Comment by Sheri — February 11, 2014 @ 8:30 am

  272. Hey Shirley Temple died. The first true child star.

    Comment by roxi — February 11, 2014 @ 9:02 am

  273. @271. How on earth did they “take away the Dean/Cas relationship and gave it to Sam”?

    I thought it was a high time they showed those two interacting on any significant level. The show has a small cast and an even smaller core cast. Sam, Dean and Cas are the most prominent so it’s pretty weird how two out of three characters hardly ever have scenes between them yet the narrative wants to tell how they are all great friends etc.

    Anyways, I wasn’t into the Cas&Sam stuff so Dean can continue to share his scenes with Cas.

    @270 Lisa1. I would love to find out how the original script was written! I think it would have been just a really odd thing to drop in there due to what was happening, how Dean was positioned and so on.

    Comment by San Summer — February 11, 2014 @ 9:20 am

  274. 2271- You may have personally hated Adam Sheri, but he was still introduced as Sam and Dean’s younger brother. It seems OOC and sorry, really a dickish thing of Sam and Dean to just forget all about him.
    I’m on board with why you don’t like Charlie, Garth, and Mrs. Tran, but why did you hate Kevin so much? He was just an innocent kid who was pulled against his will into the Winchester’s and Heaven’s mess, and I thought Osric Chow did an awesome job of developing that character.
    People come on here and insult us a lot for complaining so much about how SPN is going, so I keep trying to remind myself that it is just a TV show, nothing worth getting too worked up over, even though I know I’m quite guilty of that.
    I don’t think Dean’s story is gonna end up mattering at all unfortunately, going by history.
    But I really don’t know if Sam’s gonna fare any better this time. It looks like it will be Crowley against Abaddon and Cas against Metatron. And is it just me or does it seem like they took almost all of Abaddon’s baddassness away from her?
    If Sam and Dean can somehow reconcile and be close and loving again, I guess I’ll have to be satisfied with that. Neither Sam nor Dean seem to taking the Mark of Cain seriously, so it might not mean much of anything in the end, just like Dean being able to watch Zach’s angel grace leave him without going blind meant nothing. Then again, it’s too soon to tell so maybe, hopefully I will be wrong about that.
    It had really looked for a moment like Dean would FINALLY get an important story arc, but now it looks like more of the same; Dean hates himself, is at odds with Sam, is depressed, and drinks himself half blind. I guess the SPN writers don’t think he’s good for much else. But again, it may be too soon to tell so I’m still hoping.
    I at least hope that Sam gets to be the one to kill Gadreel, not Cas. Right now, it looks like that entire angel war story is all Cas’s.

    Comment by roxi — February 11, 2014 @ 9:27 am

  275. Sheri – I’m not quite sure how you think I pulled you into shipping, since my comments were just about generally enjoying the show. Not everything has to do with shipping – which is kinda the point I was making to San.
    But hey, if you want to think I’m this big, bad, scary fanatical shipper that’s politically campaigning…feel free. I’ll try very hard to twirl my mustache and practice my mwah-hah-hah so I give the right impression. Shaking in your boots yet?
    Somehow I just don’t think I’m that scary.
    I don’t know what argument you thought I was making. I was just pointing out that you prefer the focus of the show to be on the brothers, but you still enjoyed the beginning of the season, which had a lot more side character focus. Whereas I, who prefer the boys in the context of a wider spn universe, wasn’t satisfied with that when Sam was gone and Dean was being a dumbass.
    My point had nothing to do with shipping. I’m kind of mystified what you thought I was talking about. Or what fantasies you think I have…? Do you spend much time thinking about that? Because that’s weird. You know that, right?

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 11, 2014 @ 9:37 am

  276. @Sheri – I never said Soulless Sam was Dean’s fault. I didn’t mention Castiel because I assumed everyone here was a fan of the show and new it was Castiel who tried to save Sam. I’ve been watching since episode 1.

    I also, if I’m reading this right, said “THEIR” co-dependency issues. As in plural. As in more than one. As in SAM and DEAN. They both have been guilty.

    As for leaving and splitting up? That’s a pretty immature and petty way of dealing with the issues. I mean, that sounds like something a bunch of babies and immature children would do. I guess that’s how you want two grown adults to behave on this show?

    Sam and Dean are the best hunters in the world. So, as Sam suggested, we work great as a team, we save the planet once and for all, and we don’t let our biggest weakness, which is each other (which both have acknowledged in the past, on several occasions, get in our way.

    That’s not the way the writers worded it. It IS the way they SHOULD have worded it.

    Also, It would be nice if everyone stopped treating these characters as real people. Sam can’t just up and leave (despite the lack of hand cuffs) because the writers won’t do that. Jensen and Jared ARE Supernatural. They could split them up I guess and pair them with different people and show different story lines I guess, but then that wouldn’t really be very efficient or effective.

    They need to put their differences aside, and just concentrate on the big picture and be heroes and save the world.

    Comment by Tim — February 11, 2014 @ 9:39 am

  277. Furthermore, why did you bring up Purgatory? I never mentioned it, and that’s because I was listing instances when Sam and Dean were co dependent on each other. Like you pointed out, Sam never looked for Dean, so it would make zero sense for me to mention that as an example.

    And you’re right, All of Season 6, and the Leviathans in season 7 were Castiel’s doing.

    But didn’t Dean and Castiel get involved with Death to try to stick a band aid on Sam’s mind? Again, a display of co-dependency.

    Quite frankly, I think that since the two have died more times than I can count (Dean definitely in the lead, though) and coming back to life each time, I don’t really blame either Brother for thinking they can just fix death. They’ve beaten it so many times of COURSE they thing their is always a solution.

    I’m really just getting tired of it. I’d rather have a solid 1.5 seasons of them kicking evil’s ass and taking names and shutting Heaven and Hell forever (then possibly exploring the ramifications of doing that in a TV movie or comic book)

    Comment by Tim — February 11, 2014 @ 10:11 am

  278. @ San Summer #273: “…take away the Dean/Cas relationship and gave it to Sam”?”

    Because they gave Cas this great understanding of where Sam was without any background build up to how they got to that point all.

    For instance, in Road Trip, Cas was hanging with Dean and we got the full picture of Dean’s emotional state following the first half of the season. Road Trip would have been a perfect opportunity to get Sam’s view on the possession, the lying, what he was feeling about Dean taking off on his own. Didn’t happen. We got Cas doing all the talking and telling us how he felt and Sam absolving Cas for his past screw ups, showing them coming to some understanding of sorts. Using Cas in that way did not give the viewers any more insight into Sam than we had before, while putting him with Cas like they had already developed some deep friendship. It came off looking to me like Cas was together with Sam just because of fans repeatedly posting stuff like “Sam never gets to have any friends.”

    @ roxi #274: I said I hated Adam back when he was introduced, because his insertion screwed up the dynamic of the show at that time. Then they passed Dean’s story off to this one-off character and screwed up all of S4 and S5 by doing so. That’s why I hate Adam. I can’t even re-watch either of those seasons, because I know I am being lied to in every episode.

    @ t1gerlilly: No, I am not shaking in my boots. I would suggest that if you don’t want your posts misunderstood, perhaps you should not use charged words like ‘Heteronatural’, or maybe put your shipping aside on this board, since it is never going to be a part of this show.

    I do prefer that the leads be the leads and that support characters, such as Cas, should support the story being told. I did like the beginning of S9, but stated numerous times that I did not like Cas having his own story. Crowley was hardly around, being chained up in the basement only. I am still interested in the chess game Crowley is playing with everyone…if it ends up going anywhere, that is. I still like Dean/Cas scenes, but could care less about Cas scenes with other recurring characters.

    @ Tim: I honestly don’t remember your post anymore, but I will say that I have not seen a co-dependency issue until it was made one this season. What I saw was the brothers depended on each other and that is what gave them strength as a team and a weakness to be used against them. I explained all of this in my previous posts.

    I feel the storyline this season has defined Sam and Dean down to one characteristic each: Dean is needy and Sam is pushing to be an independent person. I think I have been pretty clear in my posts in thinking that the writers are walking a very tight line in not ruining the premise of the show and one of the characters.

    As it is, Sam is already ruined for me. I cannot see at this point anything that Sam can do to take back what he has done to Dean, and that includes jumping in at the end of the season and saving Dean from some dire situation. That just won’t be good enough for me.

    Nor will Sam realizing that he does love Dean as much as Dean loves him and saying he is sorry, while Dean says, “No, Sam, you were right. I need to do so and so” (given the absolute need by these writers to do a tit-for-tat with each brother so some faction of the fandom doesn’t get all up in the air). That just puts them back to what they have done in the past, as far as I am concerned.

    As for being immature by breaking up, I see that as a more logical and realistic thing than what is being shown. In fact, they should be split up now. Sam and Dean are fundamentally different people and, if things are so bad that Sam thinks every single thing they have accomplished together was meaningless and made meaningless because Dean is a selfish bastard, then he should walk away from that selfish bastard; not hang around and say hurtful, untrue things just to make Dean feel more worthless about himself than he already does. One of the lessons adults learn is to let go. Sam needs to let go of Dean, because it is Dean that is making him feel bad. Staying just to ‘share the crappiness of life,’ but act as if you are not family is the immature, childish thing, IMO. More to the point, it is illogical from the viewpoint of the story.

    If Sam really prefers death over anyone else getting hurt by what the Winchesters do, then he needs to get out of hunting, because somebody is always going to get hurt. That’s the life and neither Sam nor Dean are God and can make it better.

    What Dean needs to learn is some self-worth, and Sam is not helping that even a little bit. My worry is that the writers will screw up Dean’s character in their quest to “mature” the brothers and have Sam come into his full manhood. They are already doing that by having Dean be an idiot when the plot calls for it and by making his actions inconsistent with prior actions (like wanting to kill Maritza, but having let Garth, Bess and the entire rest of the pack go in the previous episode). Of course, the porn star episode comes to mind here, too.

    Putting their differences aside and concentrating on saving the world will not solve the problem the writers have created for themselves. That just puts things back to the status quo, and by focusing on this faux co-dependency issue, there is no urgency at all to saving the world. We have not really seen the Winchesters involved in any of it so far. Right now, Dean does not know about Metatron or how he used Gadreel. I could not tell from Road Trip if Sam has been made aware of it off-screen or not.

    Dean has given up his stated purpose: to kill Gadreel, and Sam first, and now Cas has taken that one (in the form of finding Metatron).

    Yes, Sam and Dean are the show and are fictional characters, and story structure, pacing, plotting, characterization, and a truthful, realistic story that can be logically followed by viewers should be what we are seeing. It is those points we are discussing on this board, not which brother is to blame and justifications for that blame.

    Comment by Sheri — February 11, 2014 @ 11:18 am

  279. We seem to agree at least on how the relationship between Sam and Cas isn’t on the level that the show would like us to believe. It might change once they have to deal with whatever the mark of Cain brings. And if I squint then maybe the Sam & Cas interaction in First Born made sense as far as how Sam has tended to kind of just go with it when it comes to Cas. However, there could be a possible other angle to their relationship that would not require the show to maintain that Sam&Dean&Cas are all such close friends. How Sam saw that Cas or Benny had been put before him even though he is Dean’s brother and how horrible it made him feel etc.

    Comment by San Summer — February 11, 2014 @ 11:48 am

  280. Oh yeah, and I was talking about viewer retention -i.e. how long into the show viewers watch before switching away, not total viewer numbers.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 11, 2014 @ 12:38 pm

  281. I’m wading in again with my two cents! I think that most fans agree that we are all fed up with the angst between the brothers. As usual the people who only really like one or other of them are in the corner of the brother they prefer and argue their side with as much imagination and past history as they can to get to fit their case which is understandable. Personally I agree with bits of what lots and lots of people have been posting. I hated the Adam story, didn’t particularly mind the episode he was introduced but the way he was then used pissed me off a lot as per Sheri and I am quite happy for them to never mention him again, he can be lost with all the other lost story lines as far as I am concerned even if it does not say much about Sam and Dean forgetting him, I am absolutely okay with that!
    I think the co-dependency is a problem only in wording it as such. As I have said in my previous post, they have to believe that each other will save them above the hunt and any collateral damage that that might mean. They are the heroes that together can defeat enormous odds against much more powerful beings, because they will go all the way, it is their strength and their weakness. That does not in my mind mean they are co-dependent, they depend on each other and need each other to bring to the table their different views and ideas which makes them the great hunters they are.
    Making Sam out to be willing to die just doesn’t work for the character to me, sure he has done enormous good but he is still needed. So not happy with that and back to this episode and how I am so over all the problems it has caused and I really like both brothers – true! Didn’t like Sam’s speech, Sam is the thoughtful, more gentle of the two and this speech just was not in character to me. I am one of those who is struggling with Sam at the moment and don’t understand where the writers are going or what they want us to think about him at the moment.
    Dean was put in a catch 22 situation and obviously stepped over the line in letting Sam be possessed, but I can see that Dean would think it was the right call given all the intel he had in such a short time and was in character – take the chance and face the consequences later. So if we are now supposed to feel sorry for him because Sam is being so nasty, well that doesn’t work for me either (not saying I don’t feel sorry for him because who could not feel that after the look on Dean’s face at the end) because that is not the character I want to see again, i.e. a needy, emotional Dean.
    I understand that we cannot over nine seasons have back just the MOTW and need an arc to tie into the season, but here all the important arcs are going on in the background, worse than the Leviathan story at least that was more prominent.
    Lastly I am only invested in Cas as a character when he is part of Sam and Dean’s story, I am not interested in him or any of the other people introduced if they are just there to be showcased. I certainly don’t buy into any shipping connotations; it’s not there in this series IMO so am happy to just let that pass me by.

    Comment by Icarus — February 11, 2014 @ 12:40 pm

  282. Nice post Icarus.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 11, 2014 @ 1:57 pm

  283. That was a nice post, Icarus. I enjoyed reading it.

    Comment by Sheri — February 11, 2014 @ 2:34 pm

  284. @278- I hated the fact they they took Dean’s storyline away and gave it to Adam as well, but nevertheless, I still think there should have been more resolution than just to have the Winchesters forget all about him while he suffers in the Cage in Hell.
    As for needy emotional Dean well,unless I’m wrong and they do actually take the mark of Cain story somewhere, it looks like that’s what we’ll get yet again: Dean being hurt and depressed about Sam,Dean hating himself and feeling like he’s worth nothing, and drinking whiskey straight out of the bottle at 8 in the morning. I want to believe him taking the Mark of Cain will mean some substantial story arc for him, but I fear it will just be quickly resolved and dropped like pretty much all the times before when I thought that Dean would have an important arc.
    Although the “Sacrifice” speech of Sam’s was tender and heart tugging, it also felt a little foreign to me, because up until that time, I never saw Sam as the one with huge self worth issues, other than his feeling less than human because of the demon blood. It was always Dean that was portrayed as carrying all the lack of self worth.
    It would be nice if they could BOTH come to a place where they see their own worth and value.
    And Sheri, I reiterate: If Sam could so easily forgive Cas for all the HE did, I like to believe that at some point, he can forgive Dean and they can be close again. Of course what Dean did can’t be that easily or quickly forgiven either but in the long run I’m hoping it’s still possible.That’s what I’m hoping for.

    Comment by roxi — February 11, 2014 @ 5:33 pm

  285. Sheri – I agree with so much of what you posted except for the part about Sam being ruined. Granted, I don’t like what Carver is doing to Sam, but I don’t think I’ll ever hate Sam. I guess I’ll always remember the “real” Sam once Carver is done ruining him and Dean.

    But, I agree w/everything else you posted. This codependency thing is a fake issue. The brothers were fine at the end of S5. They were good in the second half of S6. Apart from that contrived, forced Amy drama in S7, they were fine then too. There was nothing wrong with the way the boys interacted. As you said, they may have been “codependent,” but it was never a problem w/Kripke or Sera. Carver made into a “problem” . . . I guess.

    And despite what some think, Dean has NEVER been willing to slaughter entire towns just to keep Sam alive. I don’t know where people are getting that idea. Dean made one bad decision, and now, he is suddenly willing to kill innocent people for Sam?!?!!?

    I know Dean made a bad decision here, but it’s not like he knew “Ezekiel” was no good or that he thought anyone would be hurt.

    I also fully agree that the more mature decision would be for Sam or Dean to leave. It makes no sense for them to be together after that conversation.

    And I know the boys have to be together for the show, but that’s why the writers shouldn’t have annihilated their relationship on a whim. That’s why they should have tempered some of Sam’s language and not made it seem like Sam wants nothing to do w/Dean. I know it’s a show, but I cannot suspend my disbelief enough to buy that they would actually still be working and traveling together at this point. And if they are still in the same home, I can’t see them speaking. Why would Dean speak to Sam? Why would Sam speak to Dean? They have nothing to say to each other. Their “relationship” is essentially over in my eyes. Sam wrote off Dean so the only thing left for Dean to do is accept it and move on w/his life.

    I’m also just troubled by what Carver is trying to accomplish w/all this mess. Does he even know? I also agree that there is NO story this year. I don’t care about the brothers’ relationship anymore, and nothing else is happening. I have a friend who has watched since the premiere like me, and she remarked that she doesn’t think she’s going to watch next season. And depending on how messed up I feel the brothers are at the end of the season, I may feel the same way.

    Anyway, great post, Sheri :-)

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 11, 2014 @ 5:48 pm

  286. @158: No, Mr. Glass, I don’t want you to continue the conflict. I want my brothers back where they should be. I want to not cry myself to sleep over the artificially induced, anti-Sam angst. I want to be able to wake up in the morning, having slept well, and lawyer my way through my IDEA cases. I want my show back. I fail to know whether the writers suck this season or their instruction from Carver sucks. I am not happy.
    OK, people, let’s admit a few facts. We are not going to drop this show. Most of us are addicted. TV Oxycotin Most of us will watch this show until the end, even as we hate what is being done. But we do not have to watch the sequel. We do not have to give ourselves another addiction devoted to writers who hate us – as is evidenced by the last brotherly chat. So let’s not do so. Show your distaste for the brotherly discord by boycotting the pilot. We don’t have to follow up one addiction that gives us pain with another.

    Comment by RS — February 11, 2014 @ 7:44 pm

  287. I agree with what you all wrote above, the relationship was fine as it was, Carver made it into a problem. Contrived and unnecessary, and very concerning for the future of the boys” relationship.

    The point where I disagree is that I still think that the writer used stupid, slightly ambiguous dialogue, probably deliberately. It is impossible for me to believe that Sam’s words can be taken at face value. That would go against everything the show stands for, and what Sam’s character has been shown as.

    Even a showrunner stupid enough to give us a Sam believing Dean to be dead for no reason whatsoever, cannot be THAT stupid to make the sane mistake twice. And he wrote AVSC and MS.

    I think that we will at some point soon either be told (or shown by just ignoring the harshness of the words – a common ‘solution’ by these writers)) that Sam didn’t actually mean the statements the way they sounded to most of us. That we are to just believe that the unspoken words that should have been said, were the intent somehow.

    I know its an opinion most of you dont share, but I sincerely hope I’m not being delusional here. I will go with this opinion otherwise I cannot watch it. If they actually show Sam as having meant what he seems to have said, then I’m done with it.

    Comment by Tammy — February 11, 2014 @ 8:39 pm

  288. I THINK I would rather have the writers believing that we are a bunch of idiots who can be manipulated by their methods of ignoring or dramatisibg whatever they want, than me believing that they are out to change the premise of the show and Sam and Dean’s relationship into a ‘mature’, normal sibling one where they wouldn’t care for and save each other over everything else.

    Comment by Tammy — February 11, 2014 @ 8:51 pm

  289. I think a normal sibling bond is one where you’d sacrifice and save each other – where you are an important part of each other’s lives and help each other do the right thing.
    For me the codependency issue became a real thing in the season 9 finale – and wasn’t one before that. At that point they stopped considering the big picture and acting like heroes. Not to mention Sam’s bizarre whine about Dean liking other people better than him…and then the stupid ‘there’s no me if there ain’t no you’ quote, which sounds like the demented ramblings of an abuser in a Lifetime domestic violence movie. Plus Dean totally stepping over the bounds of consent with the Zeke/Crowley thing.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 11, 2014 @ 10:29 pm

  290. @275. Of course it’s not all shipper based. (Some are probably just plain tired of the show and I’ve seen people read Dean as abusive or Sam as an ungrateful narcissist and thus demand an end to their “co-dependency”.) To make sure I wasn’t talking completely out of my ass when it comes to Destiel people, I chose a Free2B podcast (Road Trip because it was my favorite episode and it had good Cas scenes that I might be interested in hearing about) and randomly listened to parts of it. There it was clear as a day. How once Dean breaks out of the co-dependency he would have room to choose who he “really” wants in his life and who he doesn’t. And how Sam could then get a wife and a dog. (Gee, thanks.)

    And that is the sentiment that I have seen elsewhere too. They aren’t just talking about the “co-dependency” for its sake but because it hinders Dean/Cas. That’s why all the talk about wanting the boys to be “healthy” etc. etc.

    The next episode is supposed to be Cas centric so let’s see how the show handles Dean with Cas now that him and Sam are in a bad place.

    Comment by San Summer — February 12, 2014 @ 4:41 am

  291. @289- I’m sorry, but I still don’t get this accusation that Dean’s an “abuser”. He certainly crossed the line with the Gadreel situation, but he’s NEVER intentionally set out to hurt or harm Sam. He and Sam BOTH have been guilty of occasionally verbally putting eachother down, but to me, being an abuser means CONSTANTLY running someone into the ground verbally, and/or CONSTANTLY physically harming them. Both Sam and Dean have hit eachother/beat eachother up, but NEITHER one of them are guilty of the above.

    Comment by roxi — February 12, 2014 @ 5:03 am

  292. @290- Can you REALLY see a time where Dean would EVER NOT want Sam in his life? Because I certainly don’t, and that would against EVERYTHING that SPN has been based on.
    As for Cas, well, he is, or was, Dean’s best friend, but as for being in Dean’s life as his romantic partner, the head honchos at SPN have recently denied that there was EVER anything romantic developing between them, and that there are NO plans for such.
    It’s not that I care either way, because I think they could be great together in either sense, but the top brass flat out denied it, so I don’t see this scenario.

    Comment by roxi — February 12, 2014 @ 5:12 am

  293. @292- Not to mention, I and the huge majority of SPN fans have NO interest in watching a version of SPN where the boys are NOT in eachother’s lives.
    I’ve also read somewhere that Cas will be starring in the spinoff, which means he will no longer be in Dean’s life on such a regular basis. Which doesn’t bode well for a romantic partnership between the two of them.

    Comment by roxi — February 12, 2014 @ 5:18 am

  294. @roxi. I think you might have misunderstood me. Dean ending the co-dependency so he can choose who he really wants in his life and Sam being with a wife and a dog were stuff that the people in the podcast were hoping. I’m not gonna put them on a blast because it would not be fair but yeah I have no desire to see their version where room has been cleaned for more Dean/Cas interaction by having Sam stuck doing domestic scenes.

    Comment by San Summer — February 12, 2014 @ 5:44 am

  295. @294- And I don’t want that either. San, I wasn’t giving YOU a hard time. I was just saying how I didn’t like that particular vision on SPN, apparently you don’t either.

    Comment by roxi — February 12, 2014 @ 5:48 am

  296. *** WARNING: MINI-RANT AHEAD ***

    Dean and Castiel are NEVER going to be in a romantic relationship because there is absolutely nothing romantic between them.

    They are friends. That’s it. That’s all they have ever been to each other: friends. Some fans just read “romance” into their relationship but it was never there. An intense look btw Dean and Castiel is NOT “eye sex.” It’s an intense look. I’ve read examples from people but almost all of them were so innocuous that I can’t remember them. You have to, IMO, squint real hard to see something romantic btw Dean and Castiel. And not to hurt anyone’s feelings, but the examples I read were grasping at straws. I really wish I could remember even one to use as an example.

    Anyway, there is a reason Misha and Jensen changed the dialogue in that scene you guys were referencing earlier. There is no way in HELL Dean would EVER tell Castiel that he “loved” him – not in a friendly way and certainly not in a romantic way! That would NEVER happen.

    Dean is not coming out as bisexual or gay b/c Dean is a heterosexual male. Period.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 12, 2014 @ 5:50 am

  297. @roxi. Yeah, my point was that that line of thinking exist in the fandom but they are clever about it and talk about co-dependency and wanting the boys to be healthy when they tweet to the writers etc. All the while there is a hope to have the show be more about Dean/Cas and less about Sam and Dean and the only way they can see that happening is if the show pulls back from the relationship that Sam and Dean have (which they have conveniently labeled).

    Comment by San Summer — February 12, 2014 @ 5:59 am

  298. @296- Wow Lisa, calm down!
    I WASN’T saying that there was anything romantic between Dean and Cas. I was saying that if the writers would ever decide to go there, it wouldn’t bother me.
    In fact, I believe I was using examples of what the SPN top dogs have said to DISPROVE any romanitc relationship there. I DID say the the SPN brass DENIED a romantic undertone, didn’t I?

    Comment by roxi — February 12, 2014 @ 6:03 am

  299. Oh, I know you weren’t, Roxi.

    My rant was more of a general rant about “Destiel.”

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 12, 2014 @ 7:32 am

  300. I hope you feel better lisa. :) It was kind of you to put it under a warning, but I read it anyway, because I’m always interested in what you have to say.
    I think that’s a totally valid interpretation of the show. But I do think it’s an interpretation, based on assumptions that you’re bringing to your interpretation.
    What do I mean by assumptions? Well, based on how I’ve seen people on both sides of the issue talk about it – here are a couple:
    * what indicates attraction in terms of body language
    * whether signals of attraction are the same in both the gay and straight community.
    * how closeted people behave (and by behave I mean how they look, act, etc.)
    * how straight people behave
    * how gay people behave
    * whether it is possible to be bi
    * how bi people behave
    * what indicates love
    * what are valid or ideal forms of love
    * how is love indicated in a narrative
    * how is love indicated visually in tv/film
    Because you know, you aren’t on the far end of not seeing them as a couple. There are people who say that Dean is just using Cas as a tool. There are people who believe he doesn’t even see him as a friend. It’s amazing to think that we all watch the same things and some people come out believing that Dean is cynically manipulating Cas for his own ends and others believe that their love is the kind of star-crossed, self-sacrificing love that makes for epic romance.
    I think if you go solely on canon, you can make a case either for friends or something more. I don’t really think you can say that Dean doesn’t care about Cas.
    I also have to say I find it weird that it bothers you and others that people have this interpretation. Is it so terrible that people want Dean to have love in his life? To have at least the glimmering of hope of a shared life and a true partner? How does that take away from either of them as characters? Or from his relationship with his brother?

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 12, 2014 @ 9:18 am

  301. @300- It doesn’t bother me at all that some people interpret something deeper between Dean and Cas. At some point last summer I almost began to see it a little bit myself.
    But then Jensen got slammed all over the internet, and STILL does, as this “Republican homophobic ass” all because he was cornered at a Con and admittedly handled it badly.I have NEVER seen or heard any comments he ever made to the effect of hating or having anything at all against the GLBT community or individuals, yet they ran him into the ground,slamming his looks, his acting, even saying cruel things about his baby. Turned me off of the whole idea.
    Then Guy Bee and a script supervisor whose name escapes me tweeted that there were no plans to make Dean bisexual, and that there NEVER was any romantic undertones to Dean and Cas’s friendship.
    So I figure there’s not much point anymore in Destiel fans holding out hope for it.
    I myself have no problem with it either way.
    But the main relationship will ALWAYS be Sam and Dean.

    Comment by roxi — February 12, 2014 @ 9:43 am

  302. @300. Dean already has a “true partner” in Sam. I don’t think there is anyone who can measure up. Even Benny didn’t even though I guess he was pretty much perfect since Dean felt Benny had never let him down and on some level was a better brother or at least how Dean wanted a brother to act. Dean still ends up asking Benny to die and go back to Purgatory to save Sam. And the show has never done well with love interests.

    @roxi. I think they just have a new tactic. They tried to demand canon Destiel but it backfired badly. So now they pose as being concerned for the well-being of Sam and Dean because they know that’ll go over better with the show creators and they can still get more Dean/Cas out of it.
    PS. Insulting Jensen’s looks? Really XD

    Comment by San Summer — February 12, 2014 @ 11:05 am

  303. San – ok. I wasn’t saying ‘hunting partner’ or ‘business partner’, I was saying ‘life partner’. I don’t think you mean to imply that Sam is his life partner….?
    Sam is great at hunting, but it’s canon from the first episode that he doesn’t want to do it. Every time he walks away from Dean, he walks away from hunting. Not just when he went to college and planned to be a lawyer. In 1.11 he leaves Dean and bonds with Meg about feeling trapped by family. When they separate in 5.03 and he goes to work in a bar. When Dean is in purgatory – he becomes a janitor and leaves hunting. It’s not just that he wants a better life than hunting. He wants any life other than hunting.
    The only time when he and dean are separated that he hunts… is when he’s soulless.
    I’m not sure Dean wants to spend his life hunting either – but I’m damn sure Sam doesn’t want to.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 12, 2014 @ 11:56 am

  304. @roxi – I agree that I don’t think they’ll take it canon. But in a weird way it doesn’t really matter what happens on the show. There are a lot of people who became aware of destiel and starting watching the show because of it. There are a lot of destiel fans who aren’t fans of the show. Either they’ve never watched it or have stopped watching it. It doesn’t really matter to them, because there’s always new fic, art, podcasts, etc going on. Kinda like how Star Trek was a show that ran 1966-1969… that attained cult status and then was catapulted into a franchise by the fans. A multi-million dollar franchise that has lasted close to 50 years.
    Seriously, Xena had conventions for 20 years – and eventually they had Gabrielle propose to Xena on stage and kiss her at one of the cons.
    When you tell a good story, people notice and build on it. Hopefully all the actors and writers who spawned the ship will benefit from it in some way. But it’s a story that has a life of it’s own away from the show as well as on it.
    I’m sure there are people who say stuff about Jensen, I don’t think it’s possible to be a public figure without getting some criticism. But you probably haven’t read all the really lovely things fans say after meeting him – including gay and lesbian fans who were visibly out and even introduced their partners to him. They always say how nice and friendly he is. So I don’t think most people think he’s homophobic or a jerk. At least not in my corner of the fandom.
    As for me, I always think about the parable of the Good Samaritan. It matters a lot more how you treat people than what you say you think.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 12, 2014 @ 12:14 pm

  305. I don’t understand the anger of some the fans here towards Dean “tricking or manipulating” Sam into choosing life as oppose to going off with Death. I get Sam being pissed with Dean for tricking him into letting an angel possess him. But for Sam to through that “I was ready to die” crap at Dean is utter BS. If Sam was truly 100% ready to die. You know what he would be? DEAD! Dean may have begged him to stay but it was SAM’S CHOICE to stay.
    Do I think Dean loves Sam? Absolutely. Do I think that is his sole motivation for getting Sam out of Stanford, or making a deal with a devil to resurrect Sam, or for stopping Sam from completing the trials, or for “tricking” Sam into choosing to stay? No. I think Dean is definitely influenced by not wanting to do it alone. In episode 7.4 “Defend Yourself” The Egyptian God Osiris, who was able to read Dean’s guilt said just as much and later on Dean himself confessed the same to Jo. I also think that is why we wanted to do the trials. I do think he wants happiness for his brother. But I don’t think he wants to deal with the world and the things of purgatory alone.
    As for Sam’s feeling about Dean. I think Sam loves his big brother and doesn’t want to let him down. I think there is some serious resentment that only seems to come out when one or the other is under some supernatural influence. I think Sam sees Dean as someone who is an obstacle to his happiness. Remember, his trip in to heaven in “The dark side of the moon” where all memories that didn’t involve Dean. Someone else’s Thanksgiving. ..the month that he lived on his own in AZ…the night he left for Stanford. This is probably why he didn’t look for Dean while Dean was in purgatory, because he wanted his normal happy life.
    At the end of the day, I think they love each other very much. But like any form of relationship, it isn’t perfect.
    I know that Padalecki and Jensen are both signed on for a tenth season, but does anyone know who the show runner will be? if it is the final season, I hope it’s Kripke.

    Comment by ALIM — February 12, 2014 @ 12:28 pm

  306. @303.
    In 1.11 Sam went specifically after a hunt, the biggest one that had been going on for over twenty years. In 5.03, he didn’t go to work in a bar because “he wants any life other than hunting”. He went because he did not trust himself and felt bad when he could not help the other hunters. Yet in the very next episode he calls Dean and says he wants to come back, hunt Lucifer and fight together.

    Saying: “Every time he walks away from Dean, he walks away from hunting” and then using the following as an example: “When Dean is in purgatory – he becomes a janitor and leaves hunting” seems off to me because Sam did not walk away but thought his brother was dead and that he had no one.

    They were separated in the Mentalists and ended up meeting while working on the same case.

    Comment by San Summer — February 12, 2014 @ 12:37 pm

  307. @ 301. I can’t believe that some Destiel fans actually ever taught that Dean and Cas would ever…I mean ever have any sexual or romantic relationship. As for the crap that Dean may or may not have taken; I don’t know the story behind that; but based on the Gag Reels that I have seen. Jensen doesn’t seem homophobic. Padalecki on the other hand. Some of the things he has said took me by surprise. Had me thinking ‘thou does protest too much’. In truth before I heard he was married to Gene I thought he was a closeted gay. Not that marriage automatically means that he isn’t. Bottom line if Jensen isn’t a homophobic, then he should just ignore the haters. People are so quick to fraudulently through down the race, religion, and sexuality card that it’s rarely taken seriously by me.

    Comment by ALIM — February 12, 2014 @ 12:44 pm

  308. Can I just say THE “I LOVE YOU ” was NEVER in the script. It was a gag between Misha and Jensen during that scene. Check out the Gag reel for the season 8. They laughed about it after they said it. In fact you could say Jensen got a bit po’d at Misha for pulling his head into his croutch. My Gawd do you people (tigerlilly) really think a writer would actually put that in a scene for real? It was part of a gag. When Jensen talked about changing that scene it had to do with physicality and he felt it seemed too close to Swan Song. So he and Misha worked on changing it up a bit. I personally thought the scene sucked big time.

    Can we stay in the real world at least tigerlilly?

    Comment by animal — February 12, 2014 @ 3:02 pm

  309. Oh and tigerlilly-way back on my post way back-I was talking about Destiel being dead on Supernatural. You guys are barely getting innuendo tidbits these days. I wonder why???

    Comment by animal — February 12, 2014 @ 3:05 pm

  310. @Alim-See I am of the mind that if the Destiel “fans” want someone to be gay I am all for Castiel to be gay. That’s fine to me-He is an angel-he could go either way. Although it is canon that he likes the ladies. But Destiel shippers can dream. But what I have against them-Is them trying to force Dean to be Bi or Gay when he has NEVER been shown to be either. He has been a ladies man since day one. Plus I think it is just plain disrespectful to Jensen. He loves this character-He has built this character since day 1. He has said on occasion that Dean is NOT gay or Bi. So my word to Destiel shippers is leave Dean/Jensen the hell alone. Go push the Castiel is Gay/Bi. That has more possibility to it.

    Comment by animal — February 12, 2014 @ 3:51 pm

  311. @307- I don’t think either Jared or Jensen are homophobic in any way, nor are either of them ‘closeted’. That’s another accusation that Jensen used to get, that his marriage was a sham and Danneel a “beard”. I honestly don’t get why some people think these things.
    @304- This isn’t just some people making mean comments.These are people calling Jensen a lowlife, a misogynist, accusing “people like him’ of causing LGBT teens to have low self-esteem and hate themselves, even becoming suicidal, etc. all for what they claim are homophobic jokes and comments. Well, I have NEVER seen or heard ANYTHING worse than an “unmanly straw drinking” comment and a gag reel joke about Misha giving Jensen oral sex. That somehow to these people is the same as” I hate gays”.
    Then Jensen didn’t help himself by mishandling that girl’s question at the NJ Con. She got all this internet sympathy, while Jensen was run into the ground. And yes, his looks, acting, personality, and even his young family was horribly insulted and slammed and he continues to be slammed by some.
    So, it turned me away from even wanting to see a spark between Dean and Cas.
    For every “example” Destiel shippers bring up that Dean is a closeted bisexual, I can counter each one with an interpretation that explains those scenes that have absolutely NO sexual connotations.
    I am a strong supporter of gay rights, but the character of Dean Winchester has been written as a women loving heterosexual. It doesn’t make me or Jensen homophobic for merely saying that.

    Comment by roxi — February 12, 2014 @ 5:42 pm

  312. I must clarify that when I say “these people” I am in NO way referring to the LGBT community, just these particular folks who went crazy and started slamming Jensen for ANY tiny perceived slight.

    Comment by roxi — February 12, 2014 @ 6:16 pm

  313. @roxi- I’m curious, what actually happened at that con? I’ve seen several references here to it, but what was actually asked/said?

    Comment by G-dawg — February 12, 2014 @ 6:58 pm

  314. I was excited for episode 15 because it’s titled Blade Runners but now I think that story might be stalling because episode 16 description has a line that goes: “Looking for something to keep them busy, Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Sam (Jared Padalecki) head to Washington to find the ghost”. Also Gadreel’s story seems to have lost its urgency.

    Comment by San Summer — February 12, 2014 @ 7:12 pm

  315. “looking for something to keep them busy” haha. Angel civil wars, retribution for Kevin, ending Abbadon…yeah, I can see how that wouldn’t take up much time. /sarcasm :)

    Comment by G-dawg — February 12, 2014 @ 7:59 pm

  316. Does it seriously say that, San Summer? Ugh . . . what an awful description.

    This show has gone down the drain! There is literally NO story being told other than the pointless brother conflict/tension arc that no one cares about anymore.

    Does anyone really care if the brothers don’t reunite? It’s not like their tension means anything. They will eventually reconcile so who cares?

    ———–
    T1gerlilly – If I’m being honest, I must say that Destiel irritates me b/c of SOME of their fans. To me, it is an non-existent pairing that gets much more attention that it deserves. And I would feel the same way if a group of fans were pushing Sam/Jodi all the time. I have found quite a few (not all but a fair portion) of Destiel fans to be really pushy and aggressive. Quite a few Destiel fans accuse people of being both blind and homophobic just b/c they do not see any romantic/sexual chemistry btw Dean and Cas. It’s crazy.

    And I don’t see any real interest in the overall show from those fans. It feels like they’re solely interested in pushing their personal agenda, which includes Dean declaring himself gay and/or bisexual. Who cares if it doesn’t make sense? Just as long as Dean and Cas wind up making out one day.

    I have no problem w/gay characters on shows or gay people, but I’ve never been a fan of the “Hey, I’m now gay” story for characters. That has always bothered me. There have been no clues that hint at Dean being anything other than heterosexual so if he were to suddenly declare himself gay or in love w/Castiel, I would find that story wholly unbelievable. I know it would be a natural progression for you and other Destiel fans, but I would be seriously scratching my head, wondering when that happened.

    If this story were to play out, I would need much more blatant and obvious clues that Dean is sexually attracted to men and romantically interested in them. I have seen nothing to that effect.

    But as I said, many Destiel fans only care about Destiel. And there is so much more to this show (or there used to be) than romance, which is why romance was never a priority or a necessity.

    So, anyway, that’s why Destiel irritates me. I know fans can like and ship whatever they want, but I still find their agenda irritating at times.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 12, 2014 @ 8:37 pm

  317. @313- I saw the video. This girl, the very first question of the day, she specifically drove to the Con to ask Jensen something about Dean’s bisexuality finally being addressed or something to that effect. She even admitted later that she drove 12 hours specifically for this agenda.
    The rest of the audience started booing her, and it looked like Jensen tried to calm them down, and said, to the AUDIENCE, “let’s not ruin it for everyone” which was taken by some like he was addressing the girl’s question, as she had introduced herself as being bisexual if I recall right. But he didn’t help himself by saying that he didn’t understand the question, or was pretending not to know what the question was. He certainly DID NOT handle it well at all, but it still didn’t appear to me that he was disrespecting the girl or her bisexuality, but that he was frustrated at having this same question or a variation of shipping thrown at him yet again, when he’s always maintained that SPN wasn’t about such things. he was guilty of being HUMAN. That in no way equates in my eyes with him somehow saying he is against LGBT persons or homosexuality, just that he’s tired of this issue or question he’s already answered. But to a horde of fans, it was somehow the same thing as if he had stated that he hated gay and lesbian people.
    And for this, he was and continues to be trashed as a ” Republican homophobic ass”, which I’ve NEVER found any evidence of him being. Plus they make cutting remarks about his looks,his body, his acting (granted, these are people who LOVED his looks, his body ,and his acting before), say they now hate him, that he’s a lowlife, an asshole, said his baby would be a mutant, you name it. For what he did, did he REALLY deserve such an avalanche of hate? I certainly DON’T think so!
    I am a strong supporter of the LGBT community and abhor bigotry against them, but REAL bigotry. I see NO evidence of this in Jensen.

    Comment by roxi — February 13, 2014 @ 1:27 am

  318. @314- Looking for something to do? WTF? HELLO, what the hell about Dean taking the freakin Mark of Cain?
    Does neither Sam NOR Dean give a rat’s ass about THAT?
    And hey, what about finding and killing Gadreel? Abaddon? Metatron?
    Ugh, why do I keep watching this show? The gorgeous men are not going to be enough of a reason much longer.
    But I stuck with the X-FILES when it started to go nowhere. I stuck with LOST, THAT frustrating as hell clusterfuck that meant NOTHING in the end. So, as irritating as it’s become, I will stick with SPN until the bitter end. Hopefully, we will get a satisfying conclusion for our boys.

    Comment by roxi — February 13, 2014 @ 1:35 am

  319. And right now, I am getting CLOBBERED with snow! But the kid in me loves it! So pretty! Like Jensen’s eyes.

    Comment by roxi — February 13, 2014 @ 4:47 am

  320. @ roxi #318: Mark of Cain? Gadreel? Abaddon? Metatron? Remind me who those charaacters are again…(*sarcasm here*)

    You must have read the synopsis for 9.15 about the brothers looking for something to keep them busy, so they go on a simple ghost hunt. Yeah, riveting.

    The only thing is, I like the Ghostfacers, so that is the only episode that I am looking forward to out of the ones we have news about right now. I don’t give a rat’s ass about Kevin or Mrs. Tran showing up again, or about Cas getting captured one more time by the second-class Dick Roman, and it doesn’t sound like JA is going to be in 9.17 a whole lot, so that one will probably be a borefest for me.

    I think it is safe to assume that the Mark of Cain thing has turned out to be like the Michael’s Sword, Michael’s Vessel, Righteous Man and Purgatory things were for Dean — meaning no story at all, leaving us to all await in eager anticipation for the brothers to kiss and make up at the end of the season…again.

    Comment by Sheri — February 13, 2014 @ 5:36 am

  321. @roxi and Lisa – so what I hear you both saying is that you both feel a certain amount of anger and passionate intensity from Destiel fans on an issue that you don’t feel warrants that intensity and that disagreeing with those fans leads to unfair accusations of homophobia.
    I would agree that passions can run high and that people don’t always think clearly or respond well. But I also think there can be a willful blindness that can come from being in a position of privilege and simply not understanding other people’s life experiences.
    Many queer fans life experiences have been shaped by discrimination, bullying, and family pressures. Their family has thrown them out, they’ve been beaten or a partner has been beaten, their family has refused to keep paying for college, they’ve lost jobs, had their children taken away from them, couldn’t marry the person they love or get them health insurance…not to mention all the other insidious ways discrimination can affect your life. And you have to remember that this is an international fandom…so the consequences for some fans could significantly worse – like arrest or death. Last year, all that ruckus was happening at the convention and Russian queer fans were frightened by the new laws and violence from the police. Roxi can say that there’s no significance to what happened in the convention, but I think that when queer voices and perspectives are forcibly excluded from the public space, such that it makes people not feel safe – that is going to upset people. Rightfully, in my opinion.
    So the stakes are already high for fans to be open about who they are or ask for representation. The stakes for fans who don’t have skin in the game just aren’t as high. Like I know it’s a lot easier for me to take it when I’m insulted as a Destiel shipper by people who are being ignorant. And a LOT of people are really, stubbornly ignorant about it. Not to mention insulting, as I’ve been told I have sick fantasies, and a political campaign and an agenda. I’ve been told I’m homophobic for shipping Destiel (though the twisted logic around that I never understood)’, that I’m a fanatic…etc. When roxi says she wants character A and B to get together, she never gets any of that abuse. Lisa, you are never going to get booed if you ask a question about the show at a convention. And if you’ve read the comments from Destiel fans calling people homophobic, you have probably read the comments by fans that ARE undeniably homophobic.
    It’s hard for me, because I don’t always see it either, like the straw thing. And I don’t like it when people throw highly volatile terms at each other instead of talking things out. But I also know that I don’t necessarily have the life experiences to recognize discrimination that I personally haven’t faced. And I want fandom to be a safe place where people can share their experiences and even their anger and feel like they are heard and acknowledged. I mean, you and roxi are reasonable – truth is, I like you better because you are offended by being called homophobic when you aren’t. It means you recognize that as insulting and wrong. But if someone gets pissed enough at you to say you’re being homophobic – that’s the perfect time to start a dialogue – to get them to be specific about why they think what they do and to explain your position. You can both do that very well, and it wouldn’t surprise me if you got support from other Destiel fans.
    I don’t know. A lot of the best conversations I’ve had – ones where I learned the most – have been ones where I unintentionally pissed someone off and then listened to what they had to say.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 13, 2014 @ 5:51 am

  322. @321- I have gotten a lot of abuse in my life, not because of my sexual orientation, but because I was poor. Being gay is not the ONLY reason children are bullied.
    I have NOTHING but sympathy for LGBT people. I know and love dearly several gay men, and I actually believe LGBT people, in many cases are BETTER parents, because they want it so much. Being straight does NOT make one a better parent OR a better marriage partner. I am a strong advocate of gay marriage rights and adoption.
    BUT, if you are saying that you agree that Jensen is a homophobe and somehow deserves all the terrible comments and accusations hurled at him for what seems like a VERY minor slight, then I’m sorry, but I really have to strongly disagree with you.

    Comment by roxi — February 13, 2014 @ 6:12 am

  323. @Lisa1. Okay it makes more sense now that they changed the order of the episodes and Thinman is number 15. Although it kind of takes away any sense of excitement out of the next episode because the brothers still need to look for something to keep busy after whatever happens. Hopefully Blade Runners will then pick things up.

    Ghostfacers and the brothers met each other for the first time years ago and no one has split so I’m wondering if that’ll somehow show in the dynamics. That a lot has changed but they are trying (struggling) to hold on.

    Comment by San Summer — February 13, 2014 @ 10:03 am

  324. Wow, a few days outside and when I come back the conversation is about shipping?? WTF?

    @t1gerlilly: I don’t know where to start with you.
    First of all, you gotta be jocking about Destiel shippers. I din´t mind the ship at first, that’s why I know a lot of things about it.I’ve been in this fandom since 2005 and I’ve participated in a lot of other fandoms too. I know that a lot of Destielers are nice people, I assume you are one of them, but I’m sorry, I’ve NEVER seen a bunch of fans as rude, agressive, pushy and hateful as some Destielers are an this or any other fandom.
    They harass the writers, Jensen and whoever gets in the way of their ship. I’ve been called homophibic (ME, A GAY MAN!!)for saying that Dean is stright in canon. And this is not an interpretation, I’ve witnessed this over and over again and a lot of non-shippers too.

    Animal wrong, Destiel is not dead because it was never meant to be in the first place. That executive who was bullied out of twitter by an horde of rabid Destielers is proof of it.

    Adam Glass said that storyline (Destiel) “doesn´t exists” (and he was called an homophobe for it.

    Jensen Ackles said that Dean is “very manly, very heterosexual”,(and he was called an homophobe for it, an yes, there was A LOT of hate from destielers on tumblr) When he was asked in a Con about it he said that “the show is not abou that”. He said one other time that even if Cas were in a female vessel it wouldn´t change the fact that they are only friends.

    About that convention, Jensen had a bad reaction because is sick of being asked about the same stupid thing that is not even happening on the show, and when that girl sid “I´m bisexual”, everybody there just knew that she was going to bring up Destiel, because is what they do all the time.
    Jensen is no homophobe, if he were, I wouldn´t be his fan and I love him to pieces. He has never said anything remotely homophobic, because saying that Dean is straight is not something homophibic. Actually, a lot of people thought him and Jared were a couple and he was really cool about it, so I don’t think he thinks that being gay is a bad thing

    Robbie Thompson said that there´s “no romance” between Cas and Dean

    T1gerlilly: Shipping is fun, I’m a shipper myself (Wincest), but some Destiel shippers fail to understand the difference between canon and fanon. Most of Wincest fans I’ve seen know this, that’s why we don’t scream “queerbaiters!” everytime Sam and Dean are mistaken for a couple (wich happens a lot). And yes, I do admit that I’m a Wincest shipper and don´t try to shame for it because I don`t see anything wrong with this two CONSENTING ADULTS IN THEIR OWN BODIES who happen to be brothers in this PARTICULAR case, but I know that Dean is straight in canon and I enjoy their brotherly bond the way it is.
    It’s never gonna happen, but I wouldn’t mind if Dean were bi, but it would have to be with a new character. Not Sam, because he’s his brother and incest is a very strong social taboo, and definately not Cas because he is an angel wearing a borrowed body, so Destiel is either RAPE or NECROPHILIA. This is why I don’t understand Destiel: Cas is not human and he’s wearing some poor bastard’s body who didn’t give consent to be used for sex of any kind.

    As a gay man, it offends me that LGBT cause is used to try to shame the writers for saying that Dean is not gay. Ask for more gay characters like Charlie or Crowley, but don`t try to change some character’s sexuallity. What would you think if someone changes Charlies sexuallity? Besides CASTIEL IS NOT A MAN, so is not male/male.

    About the “profound bond line” is a line which has been blown waaaay out of proportion. He has a MORE profound bound with Dean COMPARED with the one he has with Sam. Destiel fans tend to blow thing out of proportion. And by the way, the “brotherly bond” term has been used by Krpke, Ackles, Gamble, and Singer, so it hasn’t been stolen from Destiel. On the other hand, Destiel “steal” things from other ships on regular basis, like the Samulet, Dean selling his soul for Cas (never happened) and the “unicorn” and the “pizzaman” from Megstiel.

    My point is: ship what you want, read your fanfics, I’ll do the same, but please, stop shoving it down everones throats, which is what you’re doing T1gerlilly. I only posted this because I’m getting tired of the Destiel propaganda fucking everywhere and I came here because this is a mainly shipping-free site about the actual show, where neither Destiel nor Wincest belong. Megstiel on the other hand is canon

    Comment by emmanuel — February 13, 2014 @ 10:05 am

  325. @ Emmanuel: Good for you, Emmanuel. And can I add, please, roxi, don’t bite on T1gerlilly’s bait. You and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum as far as the ‘brother bond,’ but I enjoy your posts relating to what is going on in the show.

    Comment by Sheri — February 13, 2014 @ 10:58 am

  326. @emmanual – hey, I like honesty. I have no problem with people interpreting the show differently or shipping something different.
    You’ll notice that I haven’t even been bringing Destiel up. My posts are basically in response to other people, who are usually saying negative things about Destiel shippers. You’d have to be pretty unreasonable not to give me the right to respond, at least.
    As for whether you can be called homophobic if you’re a gay guy? Well, for one thing, I don’t think you need that to defend your opinion. You’re pretty clear on why you see Dean as straight. Beyond that though – I know women can be sexist, some of them violently so. It’s mainly women in India who choose to get female infants aborted. Among those African immigrants in the States that try and pursue genital mutilation for their daughters, it’s often women who are trying to make sure their daughters conform to their expectations. People of color can also be prejudiced, as we saw in the Treyvan Martin case. So I don’t think it’s sufficient to say ‘I’m a gay guy, therefore I can’t be homophobic’. I mean, how many preachers and politicians have said hateful, homophobic things and then turned out to be gay?
    Most people learn a way of looking at the world and at stories as they grow up. The expectations of stories, in particular, are usually set by the majority in the culture and often reflect what are seen as social goods. Even if your personal story is different – it’s hard not to see things through the lens you were brought up with. I mean, if I take your objections to Dean being bi, it seems like mostly you don’t think Jensen or Adam Glass sees him as bi? Other than that – what would you expect to be different about him if he were bi? Or gay and closeted? I’d be really interested to hear what your expectations on that are. It seems to me that there are plenty of real-life examples of men who were in their forties, and married, and end up getting caught fooling around with guys or leaving their wives for a guy. Heck there are people that age who decide the are really a woman in a man’s body – like one of the guys on Seal Team 6 who killed Bin Laden. If the problem is that ‘this is not real life’, then you’re going on your expectations of all the stories you’ve ever seen. Those stories are going to reflect the expectations of a homophobic culture – one which marginalizes or erases gay and lesbian people (or turns them into a joke).
    You also think that people shouldn’t talk about non-canon ships because they will bother other people? Is that because you expect that you’ll be stigmatized because of Wincest? I can see where it would feel unfair if I got to talk about Destiel and you felt you couldn’t talk about Wincest. But I don’t think that people publicly being willing to promote a same-sex relationship in public should be equated to being ‘rude,pushy, aggressive, hateful, and rabid. I mean, if you go into a conversation with that attitude, it kinda doesn’t surprise me that you’re getting negative responses. I mean, what am I supposed to say to that – ‘that’s clearly not me and I don’t know who you’re talking about. And I really don’t appreciate being lumped in with them.” Because you know there are nice Wincest shippers and really awful Wincest shippers too. Do you want to be lumped in with them? Like the SPN gossip people who think the Js wives are beards? Like the tin-hatters? Is that fair? I don’t think so.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 13, 2014 @ 11:13 am

  327. @Sheri – oooh. now you’re telling roxi to run scared? Hmm. So I have you shaking in your boots. No mustache twirling needed. I must be better at this than I thought.
    (And seriously, if you keep being a jerk about this, I will keep being a jerk right back. I’m sorry you were offended by ‘Heteronatural: white men bickering edition’, but I honestly wasn’t trying to offend. I mean, that’s what you think of it, right? What should I have said? ‘Homonatural: three men, one hotel room’?

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 13, 2014 @ 11:20 am

  328. Sorry, that should have been
    “Homonatural: three men, one motel room, and a night they’ll never forget.” (in movie announcer voice.
    (Like, that’s a joke ok. Because it’s a TV show and there’s no point getting bent out of shape about it.)

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 13, 2014 @ 11:51 am

  329. Well T1gerlilly, I’ve don’t wanna keep talking about shipping here, but I want to make a few points.

    No, I’m not an homophobe. I actually spend my free time helping people who has been bullied for being gay. I have a boyfriend and I want to get married some day. I’m from Spain and we have a conservative gobernment these days and I hate it. That’s the truth, believe it or not.

    Like I said, I know that there are a lot of nice destielers, but I don`t like when you talk about them like all are good people when part of that fandom is the most agressive kind of fans I’ve ever seen. Like I said, I’ve been in this fandom and others from the beggining but nothing can compare to them (I’m only talking about that part). Yes, there are assholes on other ships too, but those destieleres are the craziest, most hateful people I’ve ever seen, and I’ve seen a lot. And no, they are not those things for shipping what they ship, which is what you seem to fail to understand. They are rude because they spam the Wincest tag on tumblr everyday, they are because they call the writers and Jensen homophobes and everyone who don’t ship their stupid ship. They are who give your ship a bad name and I’ve seen a lot of people, mainly non-shippers who are really sick of it.

    And no, don’t you dare to talk about representation. You only want representation only when it’s about your ship. Having straight main characters doesn´t make the show homophobic. I’m sorry, but trying to change an heterosexual character to something that he was never meant to be is as bad as wanting a gay character to be straight. Newsflash: being straight is not a bad thing either. Actually SPN is really nice with gay people.

    I said I was a Wincest fan because I wanted to be honest and I wanted to explain that even if I ship it, I (like most of Wincest fans) Know the difference between canon and fanon. And yes, I was a little defensive because I’ve been called horrible things for it from destielers.

    The problem is not you wanting them to be a couple or something, the problem is some of you insist that is something that is actually there despite of bein told and proven wrong again and again and again.

    Dean is a fictional character, so when the writers, the creator and the guy who has been playing him for almost a decade tell you he’s straight, I’m sorry, but your interpretation is invalid. When he’s only had sex with women or had flirted with women in canon, I’m sorry but you all are wrong. That’s why there was a shit storm after Adam Glass, Jensen, and that executive’s (don´t remember his name)comments, because the were told wrong from the people who makes the show. The only queerbaiter on SPN is Misha, and actually don’t know why they are not pissed at him for giving his fans false hope and never happening on the show. But the don’t becuse he is the ONLY ONE who is saying what they wanna hear. That’s why they no longer ask those questions to Jensen, because they know that he’s gonna call them out on their bullshit

    Besides, those “interpretations” that most of destielers have are just ridiculous. The blow every minimal interaction into Destiel, even when Cas is not even in the episode. I’ve never seen anything remotely romantic between Dean and Cas and most of my friends who watch the show but they don’t know about shipping were shocked when a talked them about it. General audience don’t see them as a couple at all.

    I know there are some awful Wincest shippers, but in general there are a lot more respectful than Destiel fans. I assumed you were one of the nice destielers, so don’t feel icluded in that crazy part.

    This said, I’m sorry but I gonna stop talking about shipping. I had enough of it and IT’S NOT HAPPENING ON THE SHOW, so I won´t talk about it no more.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 13, 2014 @ 12:26 pm

  330. Oh, I forgot one thing: I wouldn’t have a different vision of Dean if he were bi. I’m gay and manly, most of people are surprised when I tell i’m gay, so no T1gerlilly, my vision wouldn’t be different.

    Actually most of the times people who ship Destiel have tried to convince me that Dean is bi or gay using offensive stereotypes. Some of them equal being a bottom with being needy like Dean. Or how Dean has “female features”. Yeah, those arguments were used when a bunch of crazies tried to convince me into believing that Dean is gay. And then, I was called an homophobe for saying that it was stupid. So if you are really worried about representation, you should start with them. I’m telling you, those people are not making you any favors

    Comment by emmanuel — February 13, 2014 @ 1:00 pm

  331. Ok, that was all, no more shipping talk from me.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 13, 2014 @ 1:02 pm

  332. Does anybody know what 9:16 and 9:17 are about? I heard that Jensen wasn’t in one of them? Just curious.
    I know I’ll probably take a lot of flack for this and I know the boys can’t really have regular romances but, as for a sexual encounter, I myself really think it would be smoking HOT, and also fit right in with the story arc( if Dean still has one) that if and when he does start to turn to the darkside and assume some kind of power, unable to be killed by the demons, he makes a play for Abaddon like he wants her as his consort. And then they have a hot steamy scene, upon when she climaxes, he stabs her through the heart with the jawbone blade.
    No the killing itself wouldn’t be hot, but I’ll bet the sex before it would be, and this would be an imaginative way for Dark Dean to accomplish killing her.
    I have thought from their first scene together this season that Jensen and Alaina have great sexual chemistry, and that Abaddon, while of course still wanting to kill Dean, was also sexually attracted to him. I thought it was such a waste that they had this chemistry and tension between them, and because she was the villain nothing could be done about it. In this scenario it could be.
    Though I’m probably the only one that holds this opinion.

    Comment by roxi — February 13, 2014 @ 3:23 pm

  333. I think Dean stabbing Abaddon during or immediately after sex would be too blatantly misogynistic and offensive even for this show. Killing her as a demon is one thing and fits with the show. Using her as sex partner and then killing her crosses a line.

    Comment by jackie — February 13, 2014 @ 3:32 pm

  334. No, I don´t want Dean having sex with any demon. (Again, the are not in their real forms).And it’s too bad because Alaina is beautiful, but I want a real girl for Dean to have sex with.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 13, 2014 @ 3:40 pm

  335. Well yeah, I knew I was probably alone in that opinion.
    Yes it would be crossing a line, but that was kinda the point, that Dean had gone that far down.
    But then you brought up a good point I hadn’t thought of; that Abaddon IS possessing a human, so you’re right I guess that would be quite offensive. And I guess it would also be misogynist too, another good point.
    Yes Emmanuel, it would be nice if both boys meet cool women that they have chemistry with to actually have a real date with once in a blue moon. Heck I think the only time I ever saw either of them ask a girl on a sorta date was way back in 4 when Dean asked to get together with Jamie.

    Comment by roxi — February 13, 2014 @ 4:33 pm

  336. #332: Whoever Canadagraphs is, they saw JA at the Vancouver airport returning to filming 9.17 (Misha directing). When asked how it was working with Misha as a director, he said he had only filmed one day with him. I don’t know if he was returning to film in that episode or getting coming to film 9.18. I would assume that he was returning to film some more w/ Misha, but I don’t know how many days Misha had filmed as of then (it usually takes 8 days to film).

    My guess is that 9.17 is Dean lite.

    MC tweeted that SPN has been picked up for S10.

    Comment by Sheri — February 13, 2014 @ 5:36 pm

  337. Well, actually, Jim Micahels said they started the episode on Feb 10th, so they weren’t too many days into filming when JA returned.

    Jim Michaels confirmed the renewal. Of course, that is of no surprise at all.

    Comment by Sheri — February 13, 2014 @ 5:42 pm

  338. AND, it’s snowing again, not the pretty powder snow of earlier but the wintry mix kind. I even saw lightening.
    So, does anybody know what 9.16 and 9.17 will be about? Whatever one Snooki is in , I really hope her scene is very brief. I know it’s the young obsessed CW, are Jared and Jensen really THAT much older than the CW demographic, that they feel they must bring in shallow reality TV stars? Cheapens SPN at least to me.

    Comment by roxi — February 13, 2014 @ 6:15 pm

  339. Unfortunately the CW likes it’s stars to be in their early twenties. So Jared and especially Jensen are getting long in the tooth for them. On any other network, their ages wouldn’t be an issue.
    I agree about Snookie. What on earth is she doing in an episode?

    Comment by jackie — February 13, 2014 @ 6:46 pm

  340. Yes it’s crazy, beautiful YOUNG men like Jared and Jensen considered “old”.
    Not to mention, I STILL think they are both FAR better looking than any of the “babies” on the CW.
    I can only imagine that someone like ME must be considered Soylent Green material to them.

    Comment by roxi — February 13, 2014 @ 7:03 pm

  341. Snooki is in 9.14 The Captives, and we know Mama Tran and Kevin the Ghost are in it, too.

    9.15 is Blade runners (renamed from Back in Black), and this is the one the Ghostfacers is in.

    9.16 is Thinman – no synopsis out yet.

    #9.17 “Mother’s Little Helper” – the one MC is directing now. No synopsis yet.

    Comment by Sheri — February 13, 2014 @ 7:33 pm

  342. Oh, and 9.17, Mother’s Little Helper is written by Adam Glass. Not looking forward to that one.

    And the writers for 9.16 Thinman are the infamous
    Nepotism Duo, Eugenie Ross-Lemming and Brad Buckner.

    Comment by Sheri — February 13, 2014 @ 7:48 pm

  343. The ghostfacers are in Thinman. One of the ghostfacers tweeted about it because there is a mistake on the cast in the release. The order of 15 and 16 are switched.

    SUPERNATURAL

    “#THINMAN ” — (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET) (TV-14, LV) (HDTV)

    THE GHOSTFACERS RETURN — A teenage girl (guest star Ali Webb) is killed and the final selfie she took before the attack shows a ghostly figure in the background. Looking for something to keep them busy, Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Sam (Jared Padalecki) head to Washington to find the ghost. While the two interview the girl’s mother, Betty (guest star Maria Marlow), they are surprised when she starts talking about cold spots and fritzing. When they ask her about bringing up paranormal signs, Betty replies that the “supernaturalists” who called earlier brought it up. Enter Harry (guest star Ryan Moss) and Ed (guest star A.J. Buckley), the famous supernaturalists. Jeannot Szwarc directed the episode written by Jenny Klein (916).

    Bladerunners was directed by Serge Ladouceur, the director of photography on SPN, and written by Lemming and Buchner. It will air March 18. He tweeted several things during filming but no hints to the plot.

    For Misha’s episode, I heard a rumor that it was Crowley heavy and Winchester lite but I don’t know for sure if that’s true.

    Comment by ohfandom — February 13, 2014 @ 7:56 pm

  344. BTW Travis is play Harry the ghostfacer again, not Ryan Moss. Someone goofed.

    Comment by ohfandom — February 13, 2014 @ 8:01 pm

  345. *playing*

    Comment by ohfandom — February 13, 2014 @ 8:02 pm

  346. Guys, I know this is not a social forum. I realize that this is for SPN only.
    BUT, I feel my conscience must make me speak wherever I can.
    I realize that not everybody is a vegetarian like me. But, lately, there have been some absolutely HORRIBLE animal cruelty occurring in our world.
    Recently, in Copenhagen, a zoo decided that a healthy 2 year old male giraffe needed to be put to death because his genes were not “interesting” enough. They shot him to death, skinned him, and then fed him to the lions, all while children watched.
    What makes you think that eventually, people like me, of a “certain” age, will also be deemed not “interesting” enough, and be sent to Carousal or made into Soylent Green?
    A woman let a innocent little dog his finders named :Joshua’ starve and freeze to death.
    Then, there’s this total horrible, disgusting piece of shit who killed two housecats and posed for a picture holding their dead carcasses up proudly.
    I am so ashamed of being a member of the human animal family that I have decided I can no longer be identified as such.
    Yes, I will get bashing from some of you for posting this here. And probably most of you eat meat. But guys, this is so horrible, please, don’t fault me too much for having to speak out.
    Ok The world needs to know about these things.
    Ok sorry, continue with SPN.

    Comment by roxi — February 13, 2014 @ 8:03 pm

  347. Oh quickly before someone accuses me of not caring as much about innocent humans, there’s that horrible case of the mother that murdered and dismembered her son.
    Another reason for me to not want to associate with the human race.
    Ok, sorry, I’m done now. I will try and do my own part in countering such horror. I truly hope all of you will as well.
    Now, back to Sam and Dean.

    Comment by roxi — February 13, 2014 @ 8:23 pm

  348. @ohfandom: “For Misha’s episode, I heard a rumor that it was Crowley heavy and Winchester lite but I don’t know for sure if that’s true.”

    -Oh, really? I’d like to watch that. I’m really loving Crowley this season and it would be nice to have an episode focused on him. I hope the rumor is true.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 14, 2014 @ 2:09 am

  349. @ohfandom: I heard MC’s episode was Winchester-lite, too. Doesn’t make me happy

    So, it’s Blade Runners we don’t know anything about.

    Comment by Sheri — February 14, 2014 @ 2:39 am

  350. What? The non-brothers are becoming the non-existent brothers? In their own show? Not happy, if that’s true.

    As an aside,whatever does it mean that they ‘aren’t brothers’ anymore? How does one even do that, esp if they’re still working together, living together, and apparently talking well enough together (except for the awful ‘brother talks’)? It’s not like a romantic relationship, where, okay, they’re together for convenience’s sake, but not ‘intimate’. Ridiculous!

    I hope the show takes a positive turn, though it doesn’t look too hopeful!

    Comment by Tammy — February 14, 2014 @ 4:12 am

  351. Ok, I don’t usually like when an episode is Winchester-lite, but we had some exceptions IMO.

    For example, I loved “Weekend at Bobby’s” because the gave us a different perspective about a well loved character like Bobby. I liked “The man who would be King” a lot, which was mostly a Castiel-centered episode.
    I’ve got not problems with and episode Winchester-lite IF it’s well written, IF it’s something that they don’t do very often and IF it’s about a well known and loved character. That’s why I think it would be nice in Crowley case. Depends on how it’s written.

    On the other hand we had episodes about random new characters that I did’t like. Episodes about Charlie, Benny (who I loved, but the character didn’t deserve an episode centered on him), The werewolves from “Bitten” and Garth.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 14, 2014 @ 5:00 am

  352. Re The Ghostfacers episode, “looking for something to keep them busy”? Aren’t there demons, monsters and angels they should be dealing with? Sometimes this show treats the main theme of the show, hunting, as filler between the never ending brotherly issues and forgets about the season long arcs altogether until the last few episodes.

    Comment by jackie — February 14, 2014 @ 6:40 am

  353. @351. Emmanuel, fulfilling the ‘ifs’ is the problem…

    However, the show manages to surprise occasionally, so lets see.

    @352. Good God. The writers have a real short-term memory, it seems.

    Comment by Tammy — February 14, 2014 @ 7:10 am

  354. Personally, I felt the reason Weekend at Bobby’s worked was because of Rufus. Had he not been in it, I wouldn’t have liked the episode dedicated to Bobby. The other thing is that Dabb & Loflin wrote it, and I actually like Dabb as a writer.

    The Man Who Would Be King worked because it was written by Ben Edlund and, although it was Cas-centric, the episode was all about Dean and Dean and Cas’ relationship, and it was not particularly Winchester-lite.

    Adam Glass is writing this Crowley one, and Glass is no Ben Edlund. When he writes episodes for support characters, his only purpose is to write for a support character (i.e., *gag* his Charlie episodes).

    And I am going on record as a very disgruntled fan at the moment. We have no story this season — just a soap about Sam and Dean trying to grow up and no sign of a story. We had no story last season either.) I don’t even know what is supposed to be accomplished with this soap opera we’re watching, but I know Dean’s story has been dropped, again for the 9th year. I know there’s not a writer on staff that understands the characterization of either Winchester, and I know there is not a writer on staff that can write MotW or support character episodes like in the past where they told something about the Winchesters.

    At this point, I am almost hoping Revolution gets cancelled and EK comes back as showrunner. He wasn’t great, but he at least knew who the two Winchester characters were and he could at least put a season’s story about the supernatural together.

    Comment by Sheri — February 14, 2014 @ 7:18 am

  355. @354- We don’t know for sure yet if Dean’s story has been dropped, but since neither he or Sam seem to really give a damn about that mark, who knows. You’d think they kinda have to get back to it at some point, but I’m sure it won’t have any lasting impact, much like Purgatory ended up meaning exactly nothing, or Dean being the one to stop the Apocalypse (season 4) or being Michael’s vessel(season 5). Far as I’ve seen, the only season where Dean had a consistent important story was season 3.
    But Sam doesn’t seem to have a story either. Jared was really psyched to play the duel roles, but now, besides being pissed at Dean, really, what’s his story? Going after Gadreel? Then why are they looking for “something to do”? It seems clear to me that the mission is to get Gadreel, Metatron, and Abaddon. Hey anybody remember HER?
    But then you know, we’re all a bunch of whiners who should shut up or stop watching, so I’m gonna hang in there. Maybe they’ll surprise us.

    Comment by roxi — February 14, 2014 @ 7:43 am

  356. Based on the episode descriptions, there is no story for Dean. The MoC will probably show up in the finale, since Dean will be the only one able to use the First Blade (unless, like last year, they quit the quest).

    Dean has had no effects on him as a person from the Mark. He has not become more lethal and he has not isolated himself (Cain was, after all, first an isolated wanderer and now RETIRED).

    Based on the past four seasons, I am wondering if Dean is actually a born hunter who likes saving people, or does he hate hunting and is looking for any way to quit, including being reckless and not caring if he dies doing the job.

    Dean’s characterization has been so messed up, I don’t even know who I am watching on-screen these days. With Sam, it is not a problem. He hates hunting, always has, and now thinks that is all he can do, so he does it.

    I also think the story this season is a slow, tedious march to the brothers kissing and making up and Dean becoming, once again, Sam’s man servant with a little bit of supernatural business running in the background — you know, like a simple ghost hunt with the Ghostfacers to keep the Winchesters busy while they wring their hands in teenage angst.

    Comment by Sheri — February 14, 2014 @ 8:13 am

  357. Maybe at the conclusion of SPN, God (Joshua!LOL) will reward them by resetting their lives. Sam will be a lawyer, and Dean will be a mechanic, and both will have loving wives and families.But probably not.

    Comment by roxi — February 14, 2014 @ 8:36 am

  358. @ roxi: There is no telling how the show will end. I don’t think S10 will be the last one, but in the meantime, I wonder who Dean Winchester is these days and whether Carver is completely reversing the brothers’ characterization, making Dean the one who hates hunting and Sam the committed hunter.

    If so, I hope JA does not renew his contract after S10. It’s to the point that he really needs to get as far away from this show as possible.

    Comment by Sheri — February 14, 2014 @ 8:52 am

  359. @roxi- “Whatever one Snooki is in , I really hope her scene is very brief. I know it’s the young obsessed CW, are Jared and Jensen really THAT much older than the CW demographic, that they feel they must bring in shallow reality TV stars? Cheapens SPN at least to me.”

    –Maybe she’s just a fan who wanted to do a cameo. It can happen. The producers would say yes, because they know how marketing plays into it. Doesn’t (necessarily) mean the CW is sweating the guys’ ages.

    Comment by G-dawg — February 14, 2014 @ 1:08 pm

  360. I think both Jared and Jensen are realistic enough to realize this show is likely to be the high point of their careers and so are milking it for as long as possible.

    Maybe the Mark will be the story for next season. They’ve got way too much to wrap up this season to do that potential story justice. It would be better built over a whole season than crammed into the end of this one.

    Comment by jackie — February 14, 2014 @ 6:34 pm

  361. @358- I never saw either one of them as loving the hunting life they were raised into. From what I’ve always gotten, Dean has always just told himself that he loves it and that it’s the greatest thing on Earth because really, since he knew there was nothing else he could do and no way out, it was easier to convince himself that he loved it. Fake it til you make it. Until later years after which he and Sam had suffered so much and lost so much and the facade started to crack,aided by depression and alcohol. Dean employed this method to help Sam deal also. That’s why I didn’t see “Bad Boys” as a recon.

    Comment by roxi — February 15, 2014 @ 5:38 am

  362. @360- Yeah Jackie, but you’d still think they’d at least address it. I mean, does Sam loath Dean THAT much right now that that welt on his brother’s arm doesn’t even raise a hair of concern? But then, Dean doesn’t seem to give a damn about it either. I agree that SPN has packed WAY too many things in here, but still, something that is supposed to be THAT major is surely worth some discussion between the boys, no?

    Comment by roxi — February 15, 2014 @ 6:06 am

  363. @ roxi #361: If that is the case, the hunting is a bad thing and should be avoided at all costs.

    I have mentioned this before, but will say it again, I don’t like that the show has turned hunting into something bad and awful. Hunting evil is what has supposedly made the Winchesters heroes of the story. Without hunting being represented as something heroic, then there is no reason for the audience to care about what the brothers do or have done (or John, for that matter) their whole lives when they look like idiots for not just quitting. I am just not into it if the goal of the heroes is to be normal, everyday people, because that is not a quest worth a heroes journey.

    I could buy it when Sam was the reluctant hero and Dean was the committed hunter, but if they are going to role reverse the brothers this season because of the emotional trauma, I am not interested. That would mean Sam is hunting because he doesn’t think he can do anything else, can never have that normal he sought, and Dean… well, Dean really would not have any reason to keep doing it, because he will have given up his leadership role and his hero mantel. Role reversing Dean in that manner would mean that what the brothers did the first nine years of the season was too high of a cost for a hero to bear.

    The other thing I do not like is all these monsters that CHOOSE to be good and live nicely with humanity. That completely negates the innate evilness of the monsters, and it negates the lines between good and evil in the world. Cain, for instance, was a demon. That is where he got his immortality from. A demon is supposed to be a corrupted human soul. If Cain can choose to just retire from evil, that means every monster has the free will, the choice, to be good, and since he is now good and can live nicely with humans, why is he still immortal?

    So, if every monster can choose to go against it’s basic nature, then the idea of the love of family being able to overcome all of life’s chaos really doesn’t mean anything in context of the show.

    @ roxi #362: I think the Mark of Cain is only there so that Dean can kill Abaddon, an immortal who chooses not to be good. I think it has as much importance as Purgatory did, which is not much at all. Purgatory was only used as a way to introduce Benny so that he could be the inexplicable catalyst to Sam’s story of thinking Dean would replace him as No. 1 in his life.

    What I don’t understand is how tone deft Carver and these writers are. Most everyone was fascinated with the Purgatory story, and it turned out to be nothing. I think most fans were intrigued with the Mark of Cain, yet it has casually been mentioned twice in the season with no affect on Dean at all. Dean should either be more lethal, or he should be isolating himself from everyone and everything as a means of RETIRING like Cain did. Nope, still hunting, still giving waitresses the eye in a bar, and still hanging with Sam and going on simple ghost hunts. It makes no sense at all.

    I

    Comment by Sheri — February 15, 2014 @ 6:49 am

  364. Sheri – a hero’s journey is supposed to be a journey of transformation and change. The characters aren’t supposed to be exactly the same at the end of it as they are at the start. Yet that’s what you keep saying you want to see. Season 1-2 all over again.
    If you had your way, Odysseus would never have left home, Spartacus would have stayed a slave, and the Pilgrim would be makin’ no progress.
    If the Winchesters start out as hunters – in almost all genre fiction that’s not what they will ultimately become. Not to mention, heroes aren’t supposed to enjoy being heroes. Villains enjoy power – heroes are generally miserable and have a lot of personal problems. Sacrificing your happiness for the good of others is part of the whole hero package. From a narrative point of view having two characters who are doing the same thing they were doing at the start of the series and who are happy doing it – makes absolutely no sense. Plus it’s boring.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 15, 2014 @ 7:11 am

  365. @ t1gerlilly: Once again, you are assigning intent that is not mine to my posts. I am well aware of what a heroes journey is and there is no way the Winchesters should be S1 or S2 characters again. That is part of the problem this season with Dean’s characterization — the writers have a vague picture of Dean Winchester, so insert quip here, have him leer at a waitress here, have him think of nothing but his downstairs brain while on a case about a porn star here, have him look like an idiot in an interview, as if he has not been lying to people his entire life.

    If the new series quest is to find that Joe next door ending, then the show could be showing something supernatural while the brothers are on that great quest and at the end of the series, have them ride off into the streets of suburbia. I don’t give a rat’s ass about the story of their feelings and all the emoting it takes to get there, while ignoring dropped in plots like angel wars, demon power struggle, and a, what should be significant, Mark of Cain plot.

    Comment by Sheri — February 15, 2014 @ 8:20 am

  366. @ t1gerlilly: Let me answer you on a better level than my previous post, because your point is really about story structure; something that I have talked about before.

    You are correct in saying that a heroes journey begins when the character is pulled into a quest and ends when he leaves, and it is possible that is what Carver is attempting as to ambles towards the end of SPN. But in doing so, he has changed the structure of the entire series.

    Usually in sci-fi and fantasy, the audience journeys with the hero as he discovers the world that the storyteller created and encouters the problems the hero encounters. Along the way, you learn things about the hero, but the hero is not the story — the quest is (like stopping the Apocalypse). That’s the structure Kripke used in the first five years. We followed the heroes on their quest as they discovered each new problem that arose and the tension between the brothers ran in the background. Kripke never deviated from that.

    Carver, however, has made the brothers THE story and the supernatural aspect to the series runs in the background. In doing so, he has changed the whole structure of the series. What happens when that change is made in the middle of something ongoing is that not only does the characterization change, but so does the whole tone of the show. That is why we get things like cardboard cutout Winchesters, trashed canon, and viewer confusion about what is going on.

    We are no longer observing the things (the monsters and their motivations) that the Winchesters discover, we are examining each of the Winchesters individually. How can that possibly work when every fan construes the characters based on their own experiences and personalities? Viewers may continue to watch, especially the new, young ones, but it is never going to work as compelling storytelling.

    Why are the viewers left with their mouths open wondering what happened to what the showrunner touted as THE story of the season — the angel and demon war? It’s confusion caused by changing the entire structure of the series.

    The confusion comes about because the viewers no longer know what kind of story they are getting. Is it an “Idea” story; where a question is raised (What will Sam do when he finds out he has been possessed?) and it ends when that question is answered.

    Maybe the viewers are getting a “Character” story, where the heroes are transformed into something other than they were (Does Dean now want normal and will he start to seek that while Sam takes the role as leader?). These stories are not about the character’s character; they are about what the character does and, in the end, they return to whatever they were prior to the story beginning. Now, how can that be if the brothers are now seeking something that the audience has been told repeatedly they never can have — a normal life?

    Are we getting an “Event Story;” the world is out of order and needs fixed. Once order is restored, or the old order is restored, or the world is in complete chaos (all efforts of the hero having failed) the story ends. Think Lord of the Rings, Dune, Hamlet, or Beowulf). This type of story begins, not when the event happens, but when the hero arrives who will affect the change. Nine years in is too late to take up this kind of story. In this type of story, we learn only what we need to know about the hero character, because he is the guide to the event happening.

    So, you see that it is not a matter of wanting S1 Winchesters; it is a matter of I would like to know what the purpose of the series is now, and that is done by understanding what story structure is being used.

    Comment by Sheri — February 15, 2014 @ 9:16 am

  367. Sam’s transformation is actually taking place. He’s finally fully human, with all the demon blood finally gone,he’s completely healed, and apparently is becoming healthy and strong again. He’s really the one who seems into hunting again these last episodes.
    Dean is the one who needs his transformation to be shown on screen.He’s got that mark, Sam’s furious at him right now, but he’s just drinking whiskey, hitting on waitresses, going on monster cases with Sam per usual. Where’s Dean’s transformation?

    Comment by roxi — February 15, 2014 @ 2:35 pm

  368. @366- But Sheri, SPN seems to be saying now that Dean is NOT the hero we always thought he was supposed to be, not a hero at all, but one huge fuckup and failure that has done far more bad than good. Like his whole life has been a big failure and a lie. And Dean clearly believes that, which is why it would make sense that he just say screw it and turn to the darkside. At least THAT would be some kind of story for Dean.

    Comment by roxi — February 15, 2014 @ 2:40 pm

  369. @ roxi: Exactly, roxi. It seems Carver is attempting a role reversal as the transformation for both characters, but that role reversal is what confuses the audience. Neither of these characters are now what the viewers expect the to e and the story does not match up with anything that has gone on in the past. There is no mytharc, per se, just an examination of the two characters with the B-plot being the angel and demon war.

    SG tried the same structuring change in S6 and S7 — to change the structure of the show from event driven (find John, kill the YED, the start and stopping of the Apocalypse) to character driven (Soulless Sam and Dean’s reaction and S7, where she floundered around with the Leviathian and the support character stories).

    Carver has picked up on that structure change focusing on tearing apart and, I assume, rebuilding the brother bond with the brothers, whether or not he realizes that is what he has done. IMO, it is not working. I don’t think there are many viewers who are happy with how things are going. Meanwhile, while we wander through the brothers emoting story front and center, we have the event (the angel and demon wars) playing in the background.

    I agree with you: Sam has a story where he is now fully human, a committed hunter, and it looks like taking over the leadership role of the pair.

    Dean has no story this season. What was teased was taken away as soon as Sam became unpossessed. The Mark of Cain may be used in the finale to set up a story for S10, but I don’t think for even a minute that it will play any big part in this season, other than perhaps Dean killing Abaddon; that is, if they plan to kill Abaddon this season. Since Dean is the only one who has the mark and can use the First Blade, there is no way that can be given to Sam.

    I would think they have to wrap up one of the B-plots this season; either the angel war or the demon war, and I am guessing that it will be the demon war with Abaddon getting killed.

    The reason I don’t think the Mark of Cain even needs discussing is because it has had only two bare mentions since the episode where Dean got it and Dean has had no reaction to it at all. From all the spoilers we have heard about upcoming episodes, it appears Crowley has not yet found the Blade as of 9.17, and Dean has not become more lethal; only more angsty. He has not become more isolated (a loner like Cain); and since he remains with Sam (apparently, he no longer thinks he is poison), there is no chance that he will consider retiring as Cain did. I see nothing important for Dean in this season, except to kiss and make up with Sam. It could happen that late in the season, they will tease for the 9th year in a row that Dean has a story in S10.

    Comment by Sheri — February 15, 2014 @ 4:27 pm

  370. @369- And some fans were having a fit because Dean actually got some of the focus instead of Sam for a change the first 8 or so episodes.Well, for those fans I say, it amounted to nothing guys. Dean hasn’t ended up with all this focus or major storyline (yet) and at least Jared got to get all the acting accolades all over the internet for playing a duel role. How did anything benefit Jensen/Dean?
    Also, Sam is now the strong one, taking the proactive role, while Dean is basically spiraling.Sam still doesn’t really have much of a story, be he’s still the one currently coming out on top.
    I don’t get why the writers had Dean go with Crowley, willingly take that mark, and then just put it on the backburner, while stories featuring Garth, fatsucking, and (God help me) Snooki take time away from the main stories. Why hasn’t Dean been bothered at all by that mark? Why hasn’t Sam, despite his current anger, shown one shred of concern or interest about it? Will Cas similarly be nonchalant when he finds out about it?
    Another thing to consider is that, as far as we know Cain had that mark PUT upon him, whereas Dean took it of his own volition.Will that say something about where his mind and heart are headed?
    Oh silly me what am I thinking? After all, Dean, a HUMAN, was able to watch angel Zachariah’s grace leave him without going blind,and was able to kill the Whore, so no big!
    Getting back to Sam, yeah, it was all well and good that Jared got to play a duel role, but besides him being furious at Dean and not wanting to be his brother anymore, shouldn’t that possession had some other lasting impact on him? One that will affect him in some other way? Right now, it looks like all that storyline served was having Dean commit a terrible mistake, kill off Kevin, and create another reason to pull the boys apart. It really didn’t involve Sam much at all in the end. Am I unreasonable to believe that Sam should be more directly involved in the aftermath of that possession,since it was he who was possessed?
    Both boys have ample reasons for killing Gadreel. Should that also be front and center?
    No, it’s put on the backburner while we get more filler episodes and another Cas centric one.
    I like Cas, but his angel storyline shouldn’t be his own separate arc taking yet more time away from the main Winchester arc. He is still a supporting character. Meaning his arc, like Crowley’s and Abbadon’s, should directly tie in with and support the bigger Winchester’s arc.
    Now the supposedly impenetrable bunker is haunted. No doubt by Kevin or Mrs. Tran. Why? What for? I liked Kevin but come on, at some point, the killed off characters NEED to stay dead! The only thing I could see this being good for is to hammer Dean further down into worthlessness, maybe that will be the point.
    Yeah, alot of whining and complaining for a fan right? But I’m a fan who would like SPN to be GOOD again. I don’t want it to slide into obsoleteness like the X-FILES did, or end up totally pointless answering NO questions or satisfyingly tying up ANY loose ends, like LOST did. I want a meaningful, satisfying conclusion for our boys, and the only way to wind up there is to have good, powerful, important story arcs NOW.Or else SPN will just fade away after 10 seasons into oblivion and I don’t want that. I think the characters and Sam and Dean deserve so much better, as do the longtime loyal fans, who have stuck with it this long.

    Comment by roxi — February 16, 2014 @ 12:12 am

  371. @369, 370. Thumbs up, Sheri, roxi.

    Comment by Tammy — February 16, 2014 @ 1:37 am

  372. Yeah, well, it’s been an awful season for Cas fans. Just not enough Cas and really bad characterization when we do get him. Then he’s just inexplicably gone for no reason. It’s gotten so bad that Cas fans have been using #wherestheangel (where’s the angel) to speculate about where he’s been. And share amusing photos of Cas photoshopped into various locations and social gatherings (because apparently Cas likes to party).
    Personally I’m looking forward to Berens epi 9×14 with Cas. Then 9×17 – because Misha is directing. Of course it’s kinda depressing that he’s going to get captured again – and save himself, since the Winchesters only save each other (and not even Adam). Seriously, when it comes to the whole ‘saving people’ part of the family business, they really are utter crap at it, which is why everyone they know is dead.
    Luckily, Cas is a BAMF and can take care of himself, and them to, if it comes down to it.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 16, 2014 @ 3:15 am

  373. Sheri – since it’s been set up as Crowley vs Abbadon, with the winner being king of hell, it doesn’t really make sense for Dean to kill Abbadon, even as Crowley’s pawn, because it wouldn’t settle anything. Unless…Dean becomes King of hell, with Crowley as his right hand man, thinking he’s the power behind the throne because he doesn’t was the visibility as a target.
    Then it would make sense if Sam got Gadreel and Metatron to kill each other and leave him in charge of heaven, with Cas as his first lieutenant. Then we could go into season ten with Dean vs Sam trying to kill each other. Plus you know Cas would betray Sam to save Dean’s life and Crowley would betray Dean…because he’s Crowley. It would be interesting.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 16, 2014 @ 3:23 am

  374. ^ Sam won’t give up on Dean.

    Comment by San Summer — February 16, 2014 @ 3:55 am

  375. @t1gerlilly:”Then we could go into season ten with Dean vs Sam trying to kill each other. ”

    -Yeah, keep dreaming, because in 9 years of show we have been told the exact opposite.

    @tigerlilly:”Plus you know Cas would betray Sam to save Dean’s life ”

    -Yeah, because he NEVER betrayed Dean before (sarcasm). He broke Sam’s wall, and he knew Sam is Dean’s only weak spot, what would hurt him the most.He admitted his betrayal a couple of episodes before. And Dean was so mad at him that he tried to kill him using Death

    DEAN TO DEATH (about Cas): “Call him what you want, just kill him now!”

    I’m surprised at the ability some people have to ignore canon

    Comment by emmanuel — February 16, 2014 @ 4:28 am

  376. I meant to say “a couple of episodes ago” Sorry

    Comment by emmanuel — February 16, 2014 @ 4:29 am

  377. Cas betrayed both Dean AND Sam for his own purposes. That’s why I feel that Sam should be able to forgive his own BROTHER in the long run, if he was so easily able to forgive Cas.
    When Cas lost his mind and went crazy with the souls inside him, yeah, Dean DID try to kill him, but he WASN’T Cas at that point. He was killing maybe thousands of angels and untold numbers of humans. Had Dean become something like that, who could blame anyone for trying to kill him? What other option would there have been?

    Comment by roxi — February 16, 2014 @ 5:20 am

  378. @roxi, I’m not saying that Dean didn’t have his reasons and I’m not saying that Dean would happily kill Cas. But for some reason I can’t begin to understand, T1gerlilly thinks that Sam and Dean would try to kill each other, or at least considering her post, is what she wants. Too bad, because all this years we have been told how far they will go to SAVE each other.

    And yes, I think putting Sam in danger was a huge factor for Dean and Bobby to take such a radical measure. He betrayed Sam by putting him in danger, and Dean by doing what would hurt him the most.

    My point is, considering their story and how much they love each other, how someone would think or want such thing happening on the show? And then, she wasted no time in exalt Castiel’s devotion for Dean when he did such a crappy thing when he was perfectly sane, and when there’s a limit of bullshit Dean can take from Cas. On the other hand, he never gives up on Sam.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 16, 2014 @ 5:55 am

  379. In my opinion, neither Sam nor Dean have a story this year . . . . or at least not a story worth watching. Sam was possessed and is now upset about it. That’s about it for him. In all his talks, he’s yet to discuss how he feels about the actual possession or how he feels Dean crossed the line. It’s just been left up to audience to figure out.

    Dean had Sam possessed and got the MOC, but like the MOL, nothing seems to be happening w/the MOC story. Maybe something will happen w/the MOC, but it doesn’t seem like that’s going to happen anytime soon.

    The angel war, the demon war . . . . all of that seems to be happening w/o the Winchesters. They are not involved in any significant way. Those are not their fights, so I expect Castiel and Crowley to wrap up those stories.

    As Sheri always says, it seems like the only story for the brothers this year is their neverending relationship drama. I assume Carver will no longer have their relationship to use as a story once he’s “corrected” Dean and gotten him on the “right path.”

    It’s funny but my interest in the show has never been lower. I honestly don’t care what the rest of the season brings. Sam and Dean could split up (in fact, I wish they would) forever, and I wouldn’t care. Castiel could move into the bunker and take up permanent residence in the Impala, and it wouldn’t bother me. I just don’t care anymore.

    That last episode broke the brothers’ relationship (IMO) and subsequently broke my primary reason for watching. Since we’re headed to a time when the brothers don’t go all out for each other and will have fundamentally changed their relationship (i.e., normalized it), I’m just not as interested in following a story w/those characters. I don’t like what Carver has done to Sam, so I’m sure I won’t like what he does to Dean when he’s done wrecking the character.

    I also really wish Dean would leave. As most know, as a bi-bro fan, I was really troubled by that last conversation. I know what Dean did was wrong, but I hate how Sam basically blamed Dean for all their problems. I believe that is how Carver feels as well, which is troubling. I feel bad for Dean and believe he needs to go and find something for himself. When I think about that talk, my mind kept help but go back to the YED telling Dean that he fights and fights for the family, but they don’t need him or want him, not like Dean needs and wants them.

    Let’s face it. It’s true. Dean does fight for Sam, but Sam doesn’t want it. Sam is not appreciative of it so why does Dean do it?

    **** Please note that I do believe the PRE-CARVER Sam was appreciative of Dean and would basically do as much for Dean as Dean would have for him. Some may disagree but I believe in Kripke’s version of the brothers where they would both do whatever it takes for each other. I’m only focusing on Carver’s version of Sam. ****

    So, under Carver, Sam has made it clear that he won’t save Dean. We already saw that Carver’s Sam is unwilling to even look for Dean if Dean disappears. I guess if Dean hadn’t called him from the basement, Sam would have just moved on w/his life. What’s special or entertaining about a relationship like that? Why would I invest in that? And Dean’s going to become like that too? Whooppee! I can’t wait!

    I also hate the message Carver is sending, which is the complete opposite of Kripke’s message. Under Kripke, family was a strength. It is what helped save the world. Under Carver, family is a weakness that causes more harm than good. I wholly disagree w/that statement.

    But let me get back to my main point since I went off on several tangents. I really want Dean to leave Sam. I think the series needs to end w/them parting ways. Under Carver, their relationship is toxic and is nothing to be salvaged. They don’t need to hunt together or be together at all. Sam can just go and be on his own and do whatever it is he wants to do. That way, he can’t blame Dean for Dean caring enough to try to save him, and he can’t accuse Dean of holding him back.

    I honestly don’t think Carver’s Dean is all that interested in hunting either. That retconned piece of crap BB made that clear, so my wish for Dean is to get out of the life, get a job he likes, and that family he always wanted. Dean deserves some happiness at some point in his miserable life.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 16, 2014 @ 6:49 am

  380. @379. Lisa, I know I seem to be the only one, but I really do not think that Sam’s words meant what was generally heard and understood.

    Again, I say, I HATED the dialogue given to the boys, esp Sam. It was ridiculous and badly written. But it was, in my opinion DELIVERATELY cruel-sounding just to add drama to the series, and leave everyone going crazy.

    Sam would still do anything for his brother.

    Comment by Tammy — February 16, 2014 @ 7:03 am

  381. @Tammy, I agree with you. I understand Lisa1′s frustrations because those are mine, too. But I really think they’re going to bring the brothers back together again, but they need to give us an emotional punch first, because that’s their definition of good drama.

    I bet Sam’s statement of not using supernatural methods to save Dean is gonna be tested this season.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 16, 2014 @ 7:10 am

  382. @Roxi – Do you fee anything different btw LOST and Supernatural?

    I watched LOST to the bitter end as well, but I must say I was never bored or uninterested during LOST. Even though the show amounted to nothing, it was an entertaining ride. I enjoyed each episode on a stand alone basis. Again, I couldn’t agree more that the series finale was awful, and that there were far too many unanswered questions, but each episode entertained me on some level. I just can’t say the same about Supernatural. Ever since S5, there have been several episodes that I have found downright boring. I barely remember some episodes like the one last year w/that guy who dreamed in cartoons or whatever.

    So, the difference for me is LOST entertained me on an individual episode level until the series finale. Supernatural’s ability to entertain me is spotty – sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn’t. More often than not, it doesn’t.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 16, 2014 @ 7:10 am

  383. @Tammy and Emmanuel – I hear what you are both saying, but I have no faith in Carver. He lost my faith when he started off last year w/Sam not looking for Dean and then proceeded to NOT tell that story. Right then, I felt like he didn’t know what he was doing, and my opinion has not changed.

    It’s okay to have Sam not look for Dean, esp. if he thought Dean was dead but Carver owed it to the audience and Sam to explain HOW Sam reached his conclusion. Carver knew this was a supernatural show and should know that one’s disappearance does not equal one’s death on a supernatural show. I’m not sure how Carver’s lame story for Sam would have changed if Sam had looked Dean. I’m not sure how looking for a missing relative is immature. That doesn’t even make sense. Sam still could have (wrongly) determined Dean was dead and moved on w/his life. I guess it would have been much harder for Carver to have that contrived conflict/tension btw the boys if they both understood each other.

    So, I’m not sure what Carver is planning for the brothers. He seems to disagree w/Kripke’s version of the show. He thinks family is a weakness. He seems to think Dean is a selfish, cowardly person. That’s all I got from Sam’s speech. The whole point of this plot seems to be to teach Dean a lesson that I don’t think he needed to be taught. Plus, there are tons of Sam fans (not all, but many) who seem to think Dean would want Sam to slaughter millions of people to save Dean, and I’m not sure what they’re talking about! Dean wouldn’t want Sam killing innocents to save him. I also feel like people are ignoring the fact that Castiel vouched for Ezekiel. To me, that is very important. It’s not like Dean knowingly allowed Sam to be possessed by a “psycho angel” or that he knew innocents would be killed by his action. He made a decision and it went horribly wrong. That’s what happened, but now many argue, incl. Sam, that Dean doesn’t care who dies as long as Sam is alive. Since when? Is that what Carver is saying?

    That’s not even how it played out, but like I told someone over on Spoilertv.com, I don’t know. Maybe Carver’s Dean would slaughter an entire town to save Sam. I have no clue. Carver is changing the characters so it’s hard to speak about what they would do at this point.

    And, Tammy, you are correct. Sam did say “same circumstances” when he talked about saving Dean, but I think since it was coming after so many other harsh statements that that point got lost. I honestly didn’t hear “same circumstances.” I just heard, “No, Dean I wouldn’t. Good night.” I think Dean may have misheard Sam too. Sam could have been clearer, “No, Dean. I wouldn’t let an unknown entity possess you to save you. I wouldn’t do that to you.” That would have been clearer but who needs clarity?

    You guys may be right about the drama, but I think Carver runs the risk of alienating the OG fan base w/his antics. I honestly believe that most people watch for the brotherhood, and most bi-bro fans like myself are disillusioned and uninterested in this “new” Supernatural. I have a friend who has watched since the beginning like me and she told she’s thinking of not watching next year. I may give it up too. I already don’t own S8. I don’t want S9. With this track record, I can’t see S10 or any subsequent seasons under Carver faring much better for me!

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 16, 2014 @ 7:36 am

  384. @ Lisa1: I feel the same way. I watch most of SPN episodes a second time – the first time just to watch on an entertainment level and the second time to analyze it more closely for posting purposes. A few of them have been so awful, I can’t bare to watch a second time (Slumber Party) and all of them this season and last, I have FF’d at least half of it. I used to rewatch a season during the summer hiatus, but since SS ended, I haven’t re-watched not one single season (S1 thru S5 because I just feel lied to and the rest of the seasons because they have been awful).

    Like you, I find the show more frustrating and hugely disappointing than I do entertaining. I only continue to watch because I am a completest. SPN is the only show I regularly watch and I just haven’t found anything worth replacing it with, although I have looked for the past three years.

    Right now, I am watching documentaries on Netflix and Amazon, which I find more interesting than this show. Isn’t that awful? I’ve bought all the Downtown Abby DVD’s this year, and that is what I plan on watching this summer. I haven’t bought SPN DVDs since S4 ended, but I got S5 as a gift the year it ended. It remains unopened.

    Comment by Sheri — February 16, 2014 @ 7:44 am

  385. Sam has been lied to for months, there were doubts but he tried to push them aside or he thought he was the one at fault. It’s got to hurt even more to go from thinking that you are happier than you have been in years with friends and family around to thinking that Dean saved you only so he wouldn’t be alone and knowing that you are yet again down one friend. I think the fighting during season 8 did a number on Sam… Dean did not realize how serious it was until Sam seemed to want to sacrifice himself to prove to his brother that he isn’t a screw-up and is trustworthy. Now that the moment at the church seems to be broken, I think somehow Sam needs to come to the realization that Dean does care about him in a way that can lead them to be brothers again.

    ***

    I love moments like when Dean is wrecked when Sam seems to be gone in Unforgiven. I don’t mind that they revolve around each other. I like that they seem to be totally okay with spending all their time together.

    But Carver… I hope he isn’t going for the “letting the other one go” lesson although it seems likely since he wrote Mystery Spot. Maybe he meant to show in the finale that the brothers’ dynamic is messed up. In addition, the theme of the episode was right in the title “Sacrifice”. Maybe he thinks Dean was in the wrong when Dean wasn’t up for it at least in 9.01? :/

    Comment by San Summer — February 16, 2014 @ 8:23 am

  386. Sheri–Like you, SPN is my only network TV regular viewing over the past years, but I have watched Downtown Abby and it seems to me it too has begun to fall into conventional soap opera this year. Somehow writers, even good ones, seem to fall back on standard and many-times-done soap plots after success with original and larger themes. The same old human interaction stories take first place, and the worlds outside personal interactions, from WWI and the decline of the aristocracy to the Supernatural, gradually fade away to be background afterthoughts. Thankfully, Sam and Dean can’t get pregnant, but then, this is Supernatural.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 16, 2014 @ 9:05 am

  387. @ CaseyT: Well, that is discouraging to hear about Downtown Abby. Since I have the disks, I’ll watch it up to the beginning of this season.

    Sam and Dean can’t get pregnant, but they can meet their true loves between now and the end of the series. They try to take that route again, an I am O.U.T. No more Lisa and Amelia’s for me.

    @ San Summer: I liked the brothers troubles running in the background of an actual supernatural story, but I don’t care how Carver tries to frame the reconciliation this season. I no longer care about what the brothers think of each other, and I no longer care a thing about Sam and his hurt feelings. When hasn’t he had hurt feelings or felt like he was the victim in the family? I wished the show would separate them permanently so there would be a permanent end to the writers relying on their bickering as dram and, especially, as a storyline.

    Comment by Sheri — February 16, 2014 @ 9:19 am

  388. I still want them to be together. I don’t like the notion that Cas is somehow the healthy relationship that Dean can have and that his relationship with Sam is fundamentally unhealthy.

    Comment by San Summer — February 16, 2014 @ 9:43 am

  389. I hate to agree with Sheri, San Summer, because I’ve been such a diehard “brother” fan, but the damage Carver has done to the brothers’ relationship is irreparable, IMO. The only lesson to be learned is that Dean needs to let go of Sam. Carver doesn’t care that Dean learned that lesson some time ago; he just wants to drive home that point again. Apparently, Dean was wrong to save Sam. That thought shouldn’t have even crossed his mind. He should have just let Sam die. I’m sure he will when the next time comes.

    As I said, I believe the brothers are supposed to be more normal in their reactions, which is far less entertaining to me. I rather enjoyed the lengths they would go to save each other, but that is apparently bad and wrong.

    ——–

    Sheri – there are entirely too many shows I enjoy right now. Haha! My favorite show returned last week: The Walking Dead. It’s a great show. I would highly recommend it. There is a lot of human drama amongst the zombie stuff, but it’s an excellent ehow. Sleepy Hollow is good. and Almost Human. I’m also quite fond of Arrow. I’ve never seen Downtown Abbey, but have heard good things.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 16, 2014 @ 9:46 am

  390. San Summer, I never thought the brothers had a toxic or bad relationship. IMO, Carver created the problems and toxicity btw them. I don’t care what anyone says. The brothers were fine until Carver entered the picture!

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 16, 2014 @ 9:48 am

  391. @382- Yeah sure, there were some LOST episodes that I enjoyed, but the point is that they threw so many plots and mysteries that I felt they had to measn something. I watch a series like that until the end, I hang in there THAT long, well, I expect answers and conclusions. Lost gave me none. You were just supposed to make up your own theories. I’m sorry, but this is what WRITERS get paid big bucks to do.
    @387- BOTH Sam and Dean are victims, but SPN lately seems to want to paint Sam as the sole victim, and Dean as his big mean oppressor.

    Comment by roxi — February 16, 2014 @ 9:55 am

  392. I usually have only one or two regular type scripted shows that I am into at any one time, right now it’s SPN, and Big Bang Theory. Most of the TV I enjoy is History, Travel, and Science programs, along with cable news.
    Oh and “Amish Mafia” because it’s so ridiculous that it’s unintentionally one of the funniest things on TV.

    Comment by roxi — February 16, 2014 @ 10:00 am

  393. Wow do I disagree with a lot of things being said here. But I guess that is what makes a conversation a conversation. It would be boring if everyone agrees all the time.

    Wow -I never thought the brothers had a toxic or bad relationship either. I never thought or seen the co-dependency either. The only co-dependency I saw was when they are hunting together. Then they co-dependent on each other for surviving. I guess if one heres this about co-dependency enough one begins to believe in it. I don’t-I haven’t seen it-not in a bad way anyway.

    I also respectfully disagree with those who say Dean NEEDS Sam to be around and is lost without him. There has NEVER been any episode Dean has been totally wrecked because Sam has been gone. on the contrary Dean has always gotten deeper into hunting-which I disagree with a lot here that he doesn’t like hunting anymore either. Haven’t seen any signs of that in any episode. Yea he has been disgusted and questioned the job. Who doesn’t question their job from time to time. Like do I want to keep doing this for the rest of my life-Everyone does-but he goes back to it everytime. Like Zach said in that episode where Dean and Sam didn’t have their memories but found their way back to hunting and each other anyway.

    I also haven’t seen this Sam is the leader thing and more interested in hunting now and Dean is ust spiraling down that some of you are stating either. I believe it was Dean who brought the “Purge” case to Sams attention. And it was Dean who ultimately got the kill. Sam seemed to me to be uninterested and just very sensitive with the killing of what could be an innocent monster. I didn’t see Sam leading anything. And yea Dean is drinking-But it is too early to say that he is back at drinking like an alcoholic again.

    I also have to respectfully disagree about the MOC. There has to be a reason why we haven’t heard nor seen anything reguarding the episode entitled Blade Runners (Back in Black originally). I believe that there is a reason for this. I believe this episode will be the turning point of the brothers relationship. And that it will have to do with Dean having the Mark with the blade. I remember reading awhile back -not sure where- that there will be an episode where Sam and Cas have to rescue Dean. I am going to guess that this episode might be it. There is a lot of places the writers could go with that. So I don’t think Carver and the writers are going to just forget the mark/blade altogether.

    Comment by animal — February 16, 2014 @ 10:14 am

  394. All in all-I am happy with this season. I don’t mind the brothers fighting. But I don’t like the BS kind of fighting that we have gotten this year especially this last episode. About this whole possession thing. Fighting has to have 2 people to have a fight. Dean just sits back and let Sam have his go/his say-and Dean doesn’t defend himself. This is what irks me. If you are going to write a rift between the brothers then make it an even rift. So far this rift is BS. All one sided strictly to tear down one character and elevate another. As so it seems anyway. I am still holding onto the hope that Dean lays into Sam big time about what and why he did what he did. Like back in the early seasons when both brothers yelled at each other-stomping and flailing around.

    As for this next episode-Cas centered I have been reading. Going to watch for the haunting part not for the angel part. Because Cas is “captured” again but from the pictures ect…. I have seen. He teams up with Barthalomew ( I think that is the angel in this episode that “captures” him)-His life is not in jeopardy at all. So I already know how it starts and finishes without even watching it. (the pictures gave it away). So the haunting is the only unknown in this episode. So I am watching for that.

    Comment by animal — February 16, 2014 @ 10:25 am

  395. It’s funny listening to this “maturity” talk re: Sam and Dean coming from Carver, when you go look at his Being Human…those guys (Aidan and Josh) have gone to all kinds of lengths to save each other, and to rescue the ghost, Sally. They’ve fought monsters, bent the rules of Nature, given up their jobs (or close to it) several times. And they aren’t even related! They’re not brothers, just best friends. Yet, we don’t hear that “maturity” talk from Carver about those guys. Such an odd double standard.

    Which is kinda why I don’t think Carver is serious about it on SPN. I think he’s baiting the fans with it, to fan speculation and controversy. After all, it seems pretty obvious that he modeled his version of Being Human on SPN, coming out from Kripke’s writing staff after season 3/4. I guess that makes all this angst *worse,* since he may not be serious about it.

    Comment by G-dawg — February 16, 2014 @ 10:26 am

  396. Sorry about the misspellings and the typos-my keyboard is on the blink.

    Comment by animal — February 16, 2014 @ 10:32 am

  397. @ animal: I am just speculating that Sam will take over the leadership role in the new “mature” brother relationship, and it is based on Dean’s devastation to Sam’s gutting him in the last episode and the fact that Dean’s story ended when Sam became unpossessed.

    Dean was still hunting as of the last episode, although I can’t think of a logical reason why he is and why he is with Sam doing while doing so, unless the end game is a role reversal. Why have the Bad Boys episode in this season having Dean all of a sudden always having wanted a normal life like Sam and thriving in it? Whave have the younger brother, older sister in this last episode, with the older sister trying to find a way to overcome the sibling’s monster basic nature and having the younger brother rebel against those efforts? There has to be a reason for a hiatus to being on that note with an episode ending with the older sister being sent off to live as best as she could after having lost her entire family.

    I know the sub-text in this show can’t be trusted, and I do hope you are right.

    I remember the spoiler about Sam having to save Dean from some dire situation. So what? In Sam’s mind, the brothers operate perfectly as a team (and this last episode showed that), but they cannot as a family any more as they have in the past. Well, in the past, Dean has been the leader and Sam the younger brother. If there is a ‘transformation’ in the relationship, the only way they can transform is for Sam to take over being the leader, or else you have all chiefs and no Indians.

    Besides, Sam would save any civilian who was in a dire situation. Besides, if Dean has the First Blade in Blade Runners, I don’t see why he would get into a dire situation. Cain was unstoppable when wielding the blade, and Dean should be, too, with the MOC on him.

    I may be entirely wrong in my speculating, but I don’t think the MoC is going to be used any more than Purgatory was, and that was not Dean’s story. Purgatory was a plot tool to introduce Benny and have him be a reason to cause drama between the brothers. Purgatory was also a way to reset Cas’ character from the failed CrazyCas story. Dean was a support character to Cas in that B-plot.

    It would be nice to see that the MoC meant something for Dean for a change, but I’ve been down the Dean tease road too many times to get excited about it again.

    Comment by Sheri — February 16, 2014 @ 10:50 am

  398. @animal, I agree. Dean doesn’t need Sam, he just wants to be with him, plain and simple. He didn’t need Sam to find their dad in the pilot, he was hunting just fine without a partner, but he wanted his family together again. He wanted to be with his brother and his dad. It’s Sam who is usually lost and wrecked when Dean is gone. He just doesn’t know what to do without his brother.

    I do agree about Dean liking to be a hunter. He had a normal life, but he kept hunting.
    Jensen Ackles said it himself in the last convention: Dean is the happiest riding his car, next to his brother, hunting monsters. And he knows Dean more than anybody else. But what makes him miserable is being involved in the angels vs demons war that puts them in impossible situations. The weight is too much, but being hunters is Sam and Dean’s true nature, that was the whole point of the episode “It’s a terrible Life”, like Animal said.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 16, 2014 @ 11:13 am

  399. Lisa1, I hope the brothers can move forward a bit if they are confronted by Kevin’s ghost. Personally, I think their relationship was touching, not that many people get to spend that much time with someone they care about the most and work together.

    @393. Maybe you don’t remember what I was referring to but I was referring to moments like when Dean thinks he is about to lose Sam.

    @395. I don’t know about his other show but maybe the format in this show is troubling to him and that’s why he does the maturity talk. The biggest problem is that these characters seem to quite often prefer the idea of a life without hunting. It was different in the early seasons because they could write young brothers being on a road trip, almost romantic since it’s just the open road and it was good for Sam because he was getting over Jess and good for the brothers because they were reconnecting.

    But now I have a feeling that Carver thinks the brothers should be at a different point in life than they are. The age thing does pose a certain problem because the older they get the less escapism is involved in their lifestyle and the more there is a question of if they want to share the same motel room for the rest of their lives etc. If Sam wants to get a degree, then now is kind of those final moments to go for it and if Dean is in it because he thinks he is a killer not a father even though he would love to be a family man then that’s not very satisfying.

    @397. I believe the mark will amount to a storyline. It’s too delicious to pass up because it directly involves the myth of the Winchester brothers. Also I think something big like that will help them find each other again, not just the steady grind of hunting monsters and ghosts.

    Comment by San Summer — February 16, 2014 @ 11:24 am

  400. @Sheri, Dean had time to change his mind a million times between the episode “Bad Boys” and season 1.
    Usually people, specially during their teenage years, want to be “normal”, don’t want to be freaks, but when they grow up a little, they find their own identity. I think Dean learned to appreciate that what they do is important, that they save lives, taht they make a difference. But the bad part is that the cost is too high, so sometimes Dean feels disenchanted with the job.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 16, 2014 @ 11:30 am

  401. I understand your point Sheri but I didn’t see that scene the same as most of you did. As I had posted way back-I didn’t see a devastated Dean after what Sam said to him about being basically a looser. I saw a frustrated, confused Dean. And probably a worried for his life Dean as well. I mean your brother basically tells you -no Dean I won’t do anything extraordinary or supernatural to save your life. I will save your life in a regular fight if I can but nothing beyond that. That’s what I heard Sam say. So with the stakes being as high as they are now with the Demon War and the Angel War and Dean with the Mark of Cain-(all supernatural fights and kills) I don’t think Dean is feeling very good about surviving any fights if things get serious. He can’t rely on Sam. That’s why I think it will change in Blade Runners.

    As for what the Mark actually means I have read a lot of different ideas. It would stand to reason that the Mark would make Dean more badass and untouchable (killable) but we don’t have confirmation that Cain was immortal as a human with the Mark-wasn’t he a demon with the Mark? I was kinda confused on when he got the Mark. Was he still human or was he demon? Didn’t the Mark make him a Demon?? So will Dean become a Demon if that was the case? These are all things I want to find out and I think Blade Runners (back in black originally) is going to tell us.

    I do agree Sheri about Dean plots going nowhere – no place-forgotten. But that was before Jensen pulled the writers into a meeting. He never did that before-neither J has. So I am hoping that Dean’s arc won’t be dropped again. Especially if Jensen loves the story arc like purgatory. He was totally pissed off about that. I think the writers heard about it from Jensen. So I don’t think that is going to happen again. Especially since Jensen could use that as a bargaining tool when the contracts come up.

    Comment by animal — February 16, 2014 @ 11:39 am

  402. @ Emmanuel exactly-Thank you!

    Yes Dean wants Sam by his side because they are family-and Dean finds strength in the family unit. Which is a beautiful thing that Kripke played to in seasons 1-6 really. Carver doesn’t seem to see it that way -which OK I will ride the story-but it better be on equal footing for both brothers. That means BOTH brothers get their hits in and have equal importance to the story being told.

    Comment by animal — February 16, 2014 @ 12:05 pm

  403. If family is no longer important-not needed to win the fight like in the previous seasons (1-6) -Then what is Carver wanting to have be the winning card??? Cas-is what I am thinking. Carver and Singer absolutely love love love Misha-so I am thinking Cas is the card that will win these wars at the end- Deans MOC will be a side arc but an arc for Dean none the less but not the winning card. Sam nothing that I see right now. Maybe in the end the circle will comeback around and the brothers will defeat as a family but I am not seeing that right now. I see Cas as the main winning card unfortunately.

    Comment by animal — February 16, 2014 @ 12:13 pm

  404. Emmanual – all you’d have to do is convince Sam that instead of killing Abbadon, he’d been possessed by him and convince Dean that Gadreel had tricked Sam into letting him possess him again. You know, the kind of thing Crowley could do on his sleep.
    But I guess you don’t like any plot where the boys aren’t together. As for canon, your conveniently ignoring all the times Dean was willing to let Sam die (or actually tried to kill him)if he was going to turn evil or remain soulless. Not to mention Sam trying to strangle Dean and letting him get turned into a vampire etc.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 16, 2014 @ 1:00 pm

  405. they used to have some moral standards that they wouldn’t ignore no matter how much they loved each other. But since they chose each other, all of that is out the window.
    As for the rest of you, it’s not the writer’s fault that you were so deep into your own headcanon that you refused to recognize that the boys were not happy in their life (and it’s not like Dean didn’t say multiple times how horrible their life was.) Or that they often fight with each other and lie to each other. That’s always been true. Just like it’s always been true that they love each other and will always help each other.
    I just find it really weird that this is the conversation that ruined the whole series for you. They’ve said worse stuff to each other before. They’ve split up before. Just because they’re acknowledging problems doesn’t make all the good stuff between them disappear.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 16, 2014 @ 1:01 pm

  406. My assumptions of Sam’s pronouncements are because, to me (unlike most of you), it is NOT so clear that Carver is trying to make their brotherhood weaker or ‘maturing’ the boys into something different. To me, the point of this whiole thing could be to teach SAM a lesson, and make the brothers stronger, no?

    I completely dislike a lot of what Carver’s done with the show, including HATING the early season 8 debacle, but I think he has to have realized by now what the show is about, and what the fans want. He’d need to be a complete idiot not to, TBH!

    Still doesnt make him a good show runner. Whatever his objective,, he’s not doing a good job. No good story/myth arc, brothers are not engaged in what’s going on, its all moving in fits and starts, bad characterization, bad dialogue….

    Comment by Tammy — February 16, 2014 @ 1:53 pm

  407. @t1gerlilly: “But I guess you don’t like any plot where the boys aren’t together.”

    -Oh, a Supernatural fan who wants the only two characters of the show,whose brotherhood is pretty much the whole show and who always are together to be …together? Oh yeah, SO WEIRD! How can I want such thing? The brothers who are always together being together… What a crazy concept!

    “As for canon, your conveniently ignoring all the times Dean was willing to let Sam die (or actually tried to kill him)if he was going to turn evil or remain soulless. Not to mention Sam trying to strangle Dean and letting him get turned into a vampire etc.”

    - There’s a big difference between letting him die to prevent that he becomes evil (so he can go to heaven). He was willing to do it to SAVE his brother from Hell.
    And by the way, he NEVER tried to kill Sam. If you are talking about the times he was under the influence of a spell, I’m sorry but that’s a pretty weak argument, because well, he was under the influence of a spell!

    In season 2 he would have rather die than to kill Sam and he was willing to disobey his father.
    In season 4 he gave up Anna because the angels threatened to kill Sam if he didn’t bring her to them. His limit was when he thought Sam was becoming a monster and he was afraid he was gonna condemn himself to Hell.
    In season 6 he risked his life so he could talk to Death because he was the only one who could take Sam’s soul back.
    And I guess I don’t have to remind you what he did to save Sam in season 8 and 9.

    But yeah, those are “headcanons”, right? Never happened on the show.

    As for Sam, he was souless when he allowed Dean being turned into a vampire. The real Sam would have never done that, so I don’t think why you think that’s a good argument.
    And for Sam trying to kill Dean… He didn’t. He was high on demon blood and he lost control of his anger. But he stopped. Dean couldn’t stop him, but he stopped himself. So no, I don’t think he really wanted to kill Dean.

    “I just find it really weird that this is the conversation that ruined the whole series for you.”
    -WHAT? The series is not ruined for me. I said I’m sure they are going to bring the brothers back together again, because that’s what they always do, but they need to make them fight because that’s their idea of good drama.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 16, 2014 @ 3:34 pm

  408. @t1gerlilly: “As for the rest of you, it’s not the writer’s fault that you were so deep into your own headcanon that you refused to recognize that the boys were not happy in their life (and it’s not like Dean didn’t say multiple times how horrible their life was.)”

    -Yeah, you should tell this to Jensen, beacause, according to you, he’s deep in his headcanon too. He said (and I’m repeating myself) that he is the happiest hunting with his brother. He also said that he wasn’t really happy living with Lisa and Ben.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 16, 2014 @ 3:42 pm

  409. #405″they used to have some moral standards that they wouldn’t ignore no matter how much they loved each other. But since they chose each other, all of that is out the window.”

    That has become a big problem of late. They are also becoming huge hypocrites. Such as Dean suddenly wanting to kill the lady fatsucker whom had no harmed anyone. Or Dean working with Crowley of all demons, just months after he killed Sarah and almost killed Sheriff Mills. And of course Dean refused to kill Gadreel when he was tied up in front of him because Sam is too important. But you know Dean would stab Gadreel in a second now that he is in someone’s else’s body, because that man’s family means nothing. And Sam is no better. Neither one of them paid much attention to Kevin while he was alive, he was useful to them, that’s about all. They wouldn’t even allow him into the bunker until after he was kidnapped by Crowley. Now they are both so broken up over his death, mostly because of guilt. They are both making Kevin all about themselves. I hope Kevin does haunt the two of them.

    Comment by jackie — February 16, 2014 @ 3:44 pm

  410. #363 “The other thing I do not like is all these monsters that CHOOSE to be good and live nicely with humanity. That completely negates the innate evilness of the monsters, and it negates the lines between good and evil in the world. ”

    This bothers me too. If monsters can be good or evil, it makes hunters seem close to vigilante serial killers, becoming hunter, judge, jury and executioner in deciding who is innocent and who deserves to die. Demons especially should be pure evil. They are generally bad people (with a few exceptions) who go to hell and are tortured until there is no humanity left, only purely evil. So how can they now choose good, fall in love and retire from being demons?

    Comment by jackie — February 16, 2014 @ 4:53 pm

  411. emanuel – the plot I suggested was one that would have been intriguing because it would be Sam vs. Dean, kinda like ‘alien v predator’ or batman v superman’. It would have given each brother a distinct character arc and would have an anguished unpredictability because everything they’d be doing against each other would also be for each other. Conflict born out of love. Plus they’d have the resources of heaven and hell to command, which could mean any of the characters we’ve loved who’re in heaven and any enemies that got sent to hell could pop up again.
    This isn’t really a shipping thing either, since you might have noticed that Cas and Dean don’t end up together either in this plot either (which to me just adds more angst)
    It wasn’t a judgement when I said you want a plot where the brothers are together. That’s a perfectly fine thing to want. Just as it’s perfectly fine to like a strong plot where they aren’t chained at the hip.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 16, 2014 @ 5:11 pm

  412. @animal – oh yeah, misha, jensen, and robbie thompson all confirmed that the ‘I love you’ was in the original script. You can look it up at the fandom debunker blog, which investigates this kind of stuff.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 16, 2014 @ 5:12 pm

  413. emmanuel – you talk a lot about what jensen says, but it’s all out of context. Also, Jensen is not a writer. If Jensen plays Othello, no matter how good he is, he’s not going to know Othello better than Shakespeare.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 16, 2014 @ 5:16 pm

  414. @Jackie- I think you need to go watch 9×10 again (I think that was the one where Dean tries to kill Gad/Sam- And when Cas tells Dean -”you know-if you kill the angel you kill the vessel.” And Dean said something like “yea I know”. So Dean would kill Sam if the situation was needed.

    @tigerlilly -ummmmm-No it wasn’t in the script-it was in the gag reel only. The fandom debunker is a farce if they said it was in the script. Jensen NEVER said “I love you” was in the script. And Misha you take with a grain of salt-he would say anything his audience wants to see. And Thompson-really??? Is that the spineless Thompson you are talking about? Where did he say “I Love you” was in the script-let me see it with my own eyes. Not there tigerlilly-nowhere.

    Comment by animal — February 16, 2014 @ 5:35 pm

  415. that’s-Misha would say anything his audience wants to hear.

    Stay in the real world Tigerlilly-like I said to you before.

    Comment by animal — February 16, 2014 @ 5:36 pm

  416. Tigerlilly- I owe you an apology-I should have looked at Robbie Thompson first before I rebuttled you. But yes the I love you was in the script. He put it in knowing it was going to get cut-something like putting the actors in a mind set or something. I never respected him as a writer and after knowing that he did put that in I wont ever watch his episodes again. To ruin a character like Dean like that for what??? I bought s8-haven’t watched it because of that reason. They ruined Dean last year. And evidently Thompson and Edlund were a big part of that. One is gone thank gawd.

    Comment by animal — February 16, 2014 @ 5:53 pm

  417. @413- Not to be mean but really T1gerlilley? You say we can’t take what JENSEN says seriously, but you’ll believe everything Misha says in a joking manner at Cons regarding Destiel? Also, saying people are ‘too deep in their own head canon”. Again, THIS from a hardcore Destiel shipper? The group who INSISTS certain scenes and lines are romantic or proof that Dean is bisexual, even when the writers who write them insist that they are not? Ok then.

    Comment by roxi — February 16, 2014 @ 5:53 pm

  418. On a TV show nobody thinks about the character more than the actor. I think at this point Jensen and Jared might have even surpassed Kripke.

    Comment by San Summer — February 16, 2014 @ 6:18 pm

  419. @animal. But he didn’t. Dean was just all talk. He freed Crowley rather than kill Sam. But now that Gadreel is in another host, I’m sure he will have no trouble killing him. Because the brothers really don’t care much about people they don’t know anymore.

    Comment by jackie — February 16, 2014 @ 6:25 pm

  420. @Jackie-Dean didn’t because Cas gave Dean another option. He told him that Crowley could get Gad out. So of course Dean would take that option. And why wouldn’t Dean trust Crowley? Dean has known the guy for years. He knows Crowley works on a honor system and that he can “trust” him so to speak. Dean gave Crowley what Crowley wanted and Crowley gave Dean what he wanted. It was a win win situation.

    Comment by animal — February 16, 2014 @ 7:08 pm

  421. Oh and to add to my comment to tigerlilly-to have Thompson put Jensen on the spot like that. Knowing damn well Dean -in Kripkes version of Dean-Dean is straight. To just throw something like that in disgusts me. Totally disrespectful. WTH. Man what Thompson and Collins have done to Ackles rep because of this fanfeeding they do is disgusting. Ackles is in a loose loose situation. I knew last year that they were queerbating all year and Ackles let them – he didn’t fight for his character at all. That is why I was so pissed at him last year. But for them purposely do that to a main character. Totally redefine him just for the sake of it -man that’s disappointing. Who knows where they will take Dean and Sam. Hell-Wincest might be around the corner who the hell knows. sheesh-disappointing-very disappointing.

    Comment by animal — February 16, 2014 @ 7:18 pm

  422. Roxi – see I think people should just enjoy what they see in the show, that there are multiple ways of interpreting it, and it’s perfectly fine to have headcanon. Everyone does. Like this whole conversation about Sam and Dean’s conversation is people trying to sort out their headcanon. Lisa, for example, has decided to ignore parts of the actual text, namely “in the same circumstances”, because she didn’t catch it the first time she saw the scene. That’s totally up to her – but it’s also making her hate the show, which is really too bad. Ok, maybe I didn’t phrase it well, but if the brother bond is headcanon and always has been, then she can just go on enjoying it the way she did before. Then there’s no reason to give up on the show.
    I know bi-bro fans are used to saying everything they believe is show canon and therefore superior to other interpretations, but there are lots of ways of looking at canon and coming to different conclusions, depending on your starting assumptions and how you analyze what’s on screen.
    Like you said, I’m a Destiel shipper – I totally understand about having to make do with scraps of what you want in the show. I totally understand having an interpretation that’s not mainstream. I’m just trying to make it ok for the folks who watch for the brother bond feel like it’s totally ok to have that interpretation if that’s what let’s them enjoy the show – whether it’s canon or not.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 16, 2014 @ 9:01 pm

  423. Roxi – I still think off-the-cuff remarks of an actor taken out of context do not trump what’s actually been shown in the show.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 16, 2014 @ 9:07 pm

  424. Ok, first of all, fandom debunker can’t be trusted because they are Destiel shippers who refused to mark Destiel as “debunked”, even if they admitted that, given the facts and what the writers, producers and Jensen said, they pretty much can say that Destiel never happened in the past. Using their own words, “reality happened” to them.

    This being said, I won’t be dragged to a shipping conversation again. We are talking about Sam and Dean’s brotherhood and Dean and Cas’ friendship. Saying otherwise is ridiculous.

    Yes, Jensen is an actor, but I’ve been following him since SPN started and I’ve never seen an actor who knows his character more than him. He’s pretty vocal about the things the writers do wrong or OOC. When you play a character for so long, you learn to think just like him.

    About that “I love you” line, yes, Jensen and Misha changed it because it was horribly OOC. Robbie Thompson admitted it when he said that Jensen “made the right call”, probably because some people would consider it as “proof” that Destiel is canon when it was never meant to be. Honestly, I think was fanservicing since in that episode Castiel and Meg stated very clearly their sexual attraction to each other.

    Jensen said that it was ooc for Dean to say something like that to Cas, but he also said that Dean should say I love you to SAM, but he thinks the writers will do it in the series finale.

    @417: Yeah Roxi, my thoughts exactly.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 17, 2014 @ 12:36 am

  425. I agree with Jensen that if there is going to be a line where Dean says “I love you” to someone it should be spared for something big and he should say it to Sam. Dean came the closest to that when he was talking to Sam when Sam had passed away: “I guess that’s what I do. I let down the people I love. I let Dad down. And now I guess I’m just supposed to let you down, too.” It wouldn’t feel right if he was able to just say it to Cas even if the intent was to show family love. (Also I think the scene would have given it a bad twist because it would have been more about begging.)

    Comment by San Summer — February 17, 2014 @ 3:04 am

  426. Emmanuel – they don’t ‘debunk’ ships, not Destiel or Megstiel, or Wincest. They take questions – usually about things the cast has purportedly said and done and attempt to determine what the truth of them is – in order to stop people from spreading false information. Definitely a community service. I have no idea if they are Destiel fans. On their about page they say
    What we are:

    – Fact-checkers. With every rumor that is sent to our ask box or has made waves in the fandom, we will find sources and context in order to confirm or debunk them.
    – Rational individuals. This blog was made in part to temper the knee-jerk reaction of fandom wank in favor of a rational and informed approach to all news.
    – Dedicated Supernatural fans. We care about this show and the fandom!

    I don’t know where you’re getting that they’re any kind of shippers. I’d be totally proud if they were Destiel fans, ’cause I love rational individuals that love the show. But I can’t claim that. Wouldn’t be ironic if it turned out they were Wincest shippers… Heh.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 17, 2014 @ 4:02 am

  427. @t1gerlilly: Every time the had been asked about Destiel (and yes, they have been asked several times), they said that “it is open to interpretation”

    So this question was asked:

    “Based on the fact that Chad Kennedy said there were no plans to have bisexual characters in SPN, and Jim Michaels said “Destiel” wasn’t an intended interpretation and Guy Norman Bee called “Destiel” non-existent… and Jensen has said numerous times that Dean is straight AND Dean himself has said he’s straight… you can take “Is Destiel going to become canon in Season 9?” from “Pending” to DEBUNKED? Because that’s a preponderance of evidence against Destiel ever being canon.

    And this was the anwer they gave:

    “These are all reasons why we’re in the process of re-evaluating our Destiel prognosis. (Along with a number of other things we’re considering re-evaluating about how we operate now that we’ve been doing this for a little while and have a better understanding of the sort of information people want to hear about!)
    Unfortunately, real life happened for pretty much all of our admins at once, and we’re way behind on answering normal asks and rumors—much less an entire essay about Destiel facts and information.
    Based on the facts you’ve supplied (and many others), we can 100% debunk any “canon Destiel” in the past, and we can debunk any spoilers that say “they’ve been planning Destiel for the future.” What we do not know is if TPTB will never decide to do so.
    The only reason we have not yet debunked Destiel is because the writers and showrunners (and the other people who’ve given statements on the subject, as shown above, do NOT make story decisions) always turn away shipping questions by saying “no spoilers.” (But again, we will post a re-evaluation when we have the time, so we appreciate all of the facts you’ve suggested, we’ll be sure to include all of them!)”

    So I hate to proove you wrong, but YES, they do debunk ships. And they explained why they haven´t debunked Destiel yet.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 17, 2014 @ 4:26 am

  428. Whoa, I slipped up here.
    My intention wasn’t to start another shipping war. Or to really bring up shipping at all, nor to be snarky to T1gerlilley, although I guess it might have looked that way, sorry for that.
    I was just pointing out the irony of someone who buys into the idea of a romantic connection between two characters that’s pretty much PURELY head canon to state how brother bond folks are deep into THEIR own head canon. It was meant to be funny more than mean.

    Comment by roxi — February 17, 2014 @ 4:41 am

  429. My two cents on the “I love you”: That scene was clearly meant to mirror the last scene of “Swan Song”.
    If Dean was gonna say those words to Cas, it would seem like he would mean it in a brotherly way, the same as if he had said that to Sam in SS.
    Something to consider about both scenes is that in SS Dean wasn’t trying to save his own life. He went to Stull’s with the only intention of reaching Sam so that A- Sam wouldn’t die alone without Dean at his side and B- to keep Lucifer from winning ,reaching Sam in Lucifer so that Sam could overtake him and complete the task. He fully expected both himself and Sam to die and he didn’t care about himself dying.
    The crypt scene with Cas? Totally different to me. Naomi made Cas turn on Dean when Dean didn’t see it coming. Of course Dean loves Cas like family, a brother. But Dean was also, to me, trying to keep Cas from beating him to death. He didn’t want to die, because he didn’t want to leave Sam, not when Sam was in such a bad way and needed him badly. So even if Dean HAD said I love You to Cas, i’m sure it would have been more a case of saying anything to get the guy to stop killing him.
    Just my take.

    Comment by roxi — February 17, 2014 @ 4:53 am

  430. I’m glad it didn’t come down to Dean stabbing Sam to kill Gadreel. The fact that Dean was considering it was big enough for me. Incredibly fucked up situation because Sam hadn’t asked for any of that. His trust was used and he would have ended up murdered / mercy killed instead of going out on his own terms. Plus I don’t think there would have been a chance for Dean to come back from that because it would have been all on him and Gadreel. Dean would have probably drowned in a bottle or tried to kill himself on a hunt.

    Sam might think that Dean should have taken his chance instead of letting Crowley out. Dean said at the church that he was willing to let Crowley walk because of Sam but maybe Sam never thought that it was going to actually come to that. In 9.02 his first instinct was to ice Crowley. However, Sam wasn’t willing to kill Yellow-Eyes if it meant killing a family member so I hope they won’t make that situation into another debate unless it reflects on how poorly Sam thinks of himself.

    Also Sam said: “What if I had crossed paths with a hunter back when I was possessed by Gadreel? I could’ve ended up dead, too. Would I have deserved that? Would I have deserved to die?” So it’s probably a good thing for now that he doesn’t know Dean was thinking about killing him.

    Comment by San Summer — February 17, 2014 @ 4:59 am

  431. Roxi, I agree with you. If anything is “head canon,” it is most certainly Destiel. That is completely open to interpretation, and if I’m being brutally honest, it simply doesn’t exist. Some comments and a few looks do not equal a romantic connection. The brother bond, on the other hand, is, or rather was, the foundation if the show. It most certainly existed.

    And,T1gerlilly, I never said I was ignoring what Sam said. I simply stated that I didn’t hear “same circumstances” the first time around. I know Sam said that. It still doesn’t change that I found his speech very cold and cruel. I still think it was poorly written for the sole purpose of adding more tension to the show. I still think it was a pointless, unproductive talk. I still think Dean missed Sam’s point – whatever it was – because Sam’s admonishment was overly broad and encompassed everything about Dean as a person. How could Dean hear anything when Sam was rebuking him as a person? Sam could have just stated he didn’t like anything about Dean, and the same purpose would have been accomplished.

    So, even though Sam said he wouldn’t save Dean under the same circumstances, I still want Dean to leave. I still don’t understand why Sam is hanging around someone he finds so objectionable, and it bothers me that Dean is presented as having so little self-worth that he’s willing to stick around to be figuratively spat upon
    on a daily basis. Why is Dean still there? Why are these two brothers together? Why don’t they just separate and go on their own paths?

    The problem with making Sam’s words so cutting is I’m left wondering what relationship is there left to salvage? Sam seems to be in that place where you “love” your family but don’t really “like” them or want to be with them. If Dean has
    only ever done more harm than good, and if family makes everything worse, then what’s the point? Why are these together?

    And before someone mentions Dean’s words in SC – I can say I hated that speech too. At the time, I thought it was wildly OTT and I wanted Sam to leave then too. The difference is Dean didn’t double down on the speech and declare him and Sam “not brothers.” It wasn’t back-to-back episodes I’d Dean rejecting everything about Sam. Plus, in Sacrifice, Dean was able to clarify his feelings so a lot of the sting was taken out of that OTT speech.

    Unfortunately, with Sam, I believe we’re getting his true opinion. And I don’t want Dean to just sit back and take it. I would love for Dean to say: “You know what? Screw you, Sam! I’ve spent my life protecting you and saving you, and I’m done! You don’t appreciate anything I’ve done for you? Fine. Rest assured that I won’t be doing anything for you anymore. I won’t save you ever again. Hell, I don’t even need to talk to you! Why don’t you just get the hell out of here and leave me the hell alone! I need people around me that I can trust, and that certainly isn’t you.”

    I hate what Carver has done to this show and this relationship.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 17, 2014 @ 7:29 am

  432. And, Tammy, I believe you mentioned earlier that you don’t believe Sam meant what he said because Carver has to know the importance if the brotherly bond and family. You believe Sam will be the one learning the “lesson.”

    I wish I could agree with you, but I think last year’s story for Sam shows how Carver thinks. Apparently, it was immature for Sam to even research his brother’s disappearance. Sam didn’t bother to open a book or look into the situation. To have done so would have been immature according to Carver. That logic only makes sense to Carver. People complained but Carver only doubled down on the story. Well, into the season, people were still asking, and Carver was still defending the story. For him, Sam did the right thing.

    FF to this year, and we have a story where Dean does something objectionable (but completely understandable to me) to save Sam, and Sam rejects not only the method but everything about Dean as well. He rejects everything Dean has done on the show and doubles down on his statements. Now, if this were Kripke or Sera, I’d think Sam would soon be in a position to save Dean, and he would see how it’s not so easy to just let your brother go but this is Carver’s Supernatural.

    Sam has shown that he’s only willing to do the bare minimum when it comes to saving Dean. I shudder to think what would have happened if that creature had carried Dean off somewhere. Would Sam have even looked for Dean? I’m guessing not.

    I think we’re supposed to agree with Sam that Dean has only ever done more harm than good, that the mission always comes before family, that family is the cause of all problems. That seems to echo Carver’s own feelings. He seems intent on dismantling Kripke’s version of the show.

    As I always say, I hope I’m wrong!

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 17, 2014 @ 7:50 am

  433. Yeah, their lives might be “horrible” but it’s not because of their bond being supposedly “headcanon”. Dean said as much in 9.12: “I just know that when… When we rode together…”

    Comment by San Summer — February 17, 2014 @ 9:03 am

  434. Lisa – I understand that you don’t see Destiel. Frankly, I don’t see the relationship between the brothers the same way you do. I think you have to ignore an awful lot of what’s gone on between them (like entire seasons of the show) to see their relationship as healthy.
    And I know I’m pretty much alone here as a Destiel shipper, which generally I don’t mind too much – because the only way you learn is by talking to people you don’t agree with and testing your ideas.
    But I’m not alone in fandom. Right now, for example, I can go to the TV Guide poll for TV Couples: Should They or Shouldn’t They? And look at all the thousands of positive, eloquent comments about why people ship Destiel, when they started shipping it. The poll has been up for over a week and has over 31,000 votes – 90% of which are in favor of canon Destiel.
    So, you don’t see it. That’s fine. But plenty of other people do.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 17, 2014 @ 10:57 am

  435. Emmanuel – the specific question is ‘will it be canon’? That’s not the ship. I also don’t see where anything in your answer makes it clear that they are Destiel. Shippers or that their research on the question of whether the line was originally in the script should be trusted. entirely aside from which – the line was never in the show, so doesn’t even count as subtext. So I don’t get why it even matters.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 17, 2014 @ 11:02 am

  436. OK don’t kill me, people. Please ignore the entire post if you do not want to be analyzing the whole bro situation yet again. But I’m putting the entire stupid, ridiculous, crappily-written brother conversations down for my own peace of mind:

    SHARP TEETH:
    Dean: Listen, that night that, uh… you know, we went our separate ways –
    Sam: You mean the night you split?
    Dean: Fair enough. I was messed up, man. Kevin was dead, and I…I don’t know what I was.
    Sam: Okay.
    Dean: Hell, maybe I still don’t. But uh, I know I took a piece of you in the process, and for that… somebody changed the playbook, man, you know? It’s like what’s right is wrong and what’s wrong is more wrong… I just know that when… when we rode together…
    Sam: We split the crappiness.
    Dean: Yeah… so…
    Sam: Okay.
    Dean: Okay.
    Sam: But something’s broken here, Dean…
    Dean: I am not saying it’s not. I’m thinking we need to put a couple of “W”s on the board and we get past all this.
    Sam: I don’t think so. No, I wish but… we don’t see things the same way anymore, our roles in this whole thing. Back in that church, talking me out of boarding up Hell? Or tricking me into letting Gadreel possess me? I can’t trust you. Not the way I thought I could. Not the way I should be able to.
    Dean: Okay, look. Whatever happened, we are family. OK?
    Sam: You say that like it’s some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we’re family.
    Dean: So what — we’re not family now?
    Sam: I’m saying, you want to work, let’s work. If you want to be brothers… those are my terms.

    THE PURGE (1st convo):
    SAM Hey.
    DEAN Hey.
    SAM You go to bed last night?
    DEAN What? Uh, no. No, “Rudy” was on. “Unforgiven,” and then I was too jacked to sleep, so…research.
    SAM Gadreel?
    DEAN And Metatron and the mark of Cain and …Crickets.
    I did find us a case, though.
    SAM Oh, yeah?

    CONVERSATION ABOUT CASE.

    SAM You sure you’re okay, Dean?
    DEAN Why wouldn’t I be?
    SAM ‘Cause — I don’t know.. you… This isn’t about what I said the other day, is it?
    DEAN Oh, about that we’re not supposed to be brothers? No, don’t flatter yourself. I don’t break that easy.
    SAM Oh, good, ’cause I was just being honest.
    DEAN Oh, yeah. No, I got that loud and clear.

    (2nd convo):
    SAM I’m hitting it.
    DEAN Yeah. Hey.
    SAM Yeah?
    DEAN About what you said the other day.
    SAM I thought it didn’t bother you.
    DEANYou know, Sam, I saved your hide back there. And I saved your hide at that church… And the hospital. I may not think things all the way through. Okay? But what I do, I do because it’s the right thing. I’d do it again.
    SAM And that… is the problem. You think you’re my savior, my brother, the hero. You swoop in, and even when you mess up, you think what you’re doing is worth it because you’ve convinced yourself you’re doing more good than bad… But you’re not. I mean, Kevin’s dead, Crowley’s in the wind. We’re no closer to beating this angel thing. Please tell me, what is the upside of me being alive?
    DEAN You kidding me? You and me — fighting the good fight together.
    SAM Okay. Just once, be honest with me. You didn’t save me for me. You did it for you.
    DEAN What are you talkin’ about?
    SAM I was ready to die. I was ready. I should have died, but you… You didn’t want to be alone, and that’s what all this boils down to. You can’t stand the thought of being alone.
    DEAN All right.
    SAM I’ll give you this much. You are certainly willing to do the sacrificing as long as you’re not the one being hurt.
    DEAN All right, you want to be honest? If the situation were reversed and I was dying, you’d do the same thing.
    SAM No, Dean. I wouldn’t. Same circumstances…I wouldn’t. I’m gonna get to bed.

    Now the most objectionable sentences I find (‘most’ being the key word, since it’s all pretty objectionable):

    “Sam: You say that like it’s some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we’re family.
    Dean: So what — we’re not family now?
    Sam: I’m saying, you want to work, let’s work. If you want to be brothers… those are my terms.”

    What does this even mean? I haven’t a clue. Not sure the writers do either. Then:

    “SAM: And that… is the problem. You think you’re my savior, my brother, the hero. You swoop in, and even when you mess up, you think what you’re doing is worth it because you’ve convinced yourself you’re doing more good than bad… But you’re not. I mean, Kevin’s dead, Crowley’s in the wind. We’re no closer to beating this angel thing. Please tell me, what is the upside of me being alive?”

    Is this the sentence that is supposed to mean that Dean messes everything up? I agree it sounds terrible. But I think we, the viewers, are generalizing, whereas Sam is talking particularly of the cases where Dean has ‘saved’ him or brought him back to life (ie the deal, etc). I do NOT think Sam means that Dean has, in his life, done more bad than good, or that he always messes up.

    And lastly:

    “SAM: I’ll give you this much. You are certainly willing to do the sacrificing as long as you’re not the one being hurt.”

    This one, I can’t find any justification or explanation for. Unless Sam means ‘you’re not the one being left behind’, but he didn’t say that.

    The last one, though it hits hard, I do not think is so terrible as, when thought about, it actually means that Sam would not go against Dean’s wishes and/or let an angel possess him if the situation were reversed. I again do NOT think it means in any way that Sam would not go to extraordinary lengths to save Dean, only would not do what Dean did in that particular case. We are again generalizing, where Sam is talking particularly about this case.

    Again, my apologies for the ridiculously long post.

    Comment by Tammy — February 17, 2014 @ 11:54 am

  437. T1gerlilly, when did I say you were the only Destiel fan out there? I know they have plenty of fans. What’s your point? That the Destiel fandom rivals all the other Supernatural fandoms? That they win all the online polls?

    My point is the MAJORITY of the overall viewing audience, not just the online audience, watches for that “mythical, head canon” brother bond. This show existed BEFORE Castiel and it built its fanbase on that “mythical, head canon” bond. If you don’t see a bond, that’s fine. If you think the brothers’ relationship has been messed up and dysfunctional since S1, cool. I’m not going to argue w/you about that.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 17, 2014 @ 12:04 pm

  438. @Tammy Re: “Sam is talking particularly of the cases where Dean has ‘saved’ him or brought him back to life (ie the deal, etc). I do NOT think Sam means that Dean has, in his life, done more bad than good, or that he always messes up.”

    I agree, I mean how could Sam think that there is an upside when his friend was murdered, the king of Hell is alive and out there despite what they had worked for so hard and Sam shouldn’t be alive in the first place since he was in a coma and dying? Dean on the other hand speaks for the brothers’ bond when he says: “You and me — fighting the good fight together” like in the church.

    Dean said in 5.1: “I don’t think that we can ever be what we were. You know?” and Sam said in 9.12: “You want to work? Let’s work. If you want to be brothers…”

    Just like Sam had to earn Dean’s trust and forgiveness in season 5 so will Dean in season 9.

    Comment by San Summer — February 17, 2014 @ 12:23 pm

  439. @t1gerlilly: I’m getting really, REALLY tired of this conversation. No, the question was why it hasn’t been marked as “debunked” given the evidence when it is still marked as “pending”. I have some impressions to believe thay are Destiel shippers, this was not the only question about it.

    So many people believe it’s there because they spend so much time on Tumblr and Archive of Our Own that they really can’t tell the difference between canon and fanon anymore. They are actually starting to believe that their delusions about those characters is what’s really happening on the show despite being told wrong and proven wrong. It’s ok if you ship it, but please, if you still believe it’s there despite the evidence, I’m afraid this conversation is pointless.

    Yes, destiel is a big ship, but it is small compared to the general number of viewers. Slash fans in general are small COMPARED to them. But general viewers don’t feel the need to make polls or campaigns. Your ship is the most vocal, I give you that.

    Besides, it doesn’t matter how important you think you are, obviously the TPTB team doesn’t agree with you, given their comments about that matter. The only thing you are getting with your campaigns is having Dean and Cas proving their heterosexuality more than ever. Maybe they are giving you a message. If you take off your shipping googles when you watch the show, maybe you will be able to see it.

    Yes, you are apparently the only Destiel shipper here (which surprises me, actually), but still you are shoving your ship down everybody’s throats. Why you Destiel shippers ALWAYS do that?

    I swear to God this is the last time I talk about shipping. It’s pointless and it’s already getting too much attention.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 17, 2014 @ 12:30 pm

  440. Tammy, I was confused by the first conversation too, and there was much debate about whether Sam was saying they weren’t brothers anymore, or if he was saying that they can’t be brothers and hunt. I argued the latter b/c the former was going too far, IMO. And I honestly thought Sam was saying that Dean places Sam’s safety above the mission, and they can’t be effective hunters and do that. However, I was wrong.

    Sam (i.e., the writers) pretty much cleared up that debate in this last episode when Dean says, “You mean the part where we’re not brothers anymore,” and Sam does NOT correct him. He says, “Yeah, that. I’m just being honest.” So, despite all my arguing that Sam couldn’t have meant they weren’t brothers anymore; it seems that’s exactly what Sam meant. They aren’t brothers. I’m not sure what that’s supposed to mean; it’s so silly.

    I think the ST speech is very vague and puzzling. I honestly have no idea what Sam is even talking about in that speech. For instance, when he says he can’t trust Dean like he thought he could, what is he talking about? Is he speaking in generalities? Is he talking about possession? And has Sam met Dean? Is he really all that shocked that Dean did whatever he could to save him?

    I think the part of the speech where Sam says Dean causes more harm than good is where people are getting that Sam blames Dean for everything. Plus, in ST, he says everything that has gone wrong is b/c they are family. It doesn’t help that in ST, he referenced stopping the trials and blamed that on Dean as well. He references his possession, but he also mentions the angels. What do the fallen angels have to do w/Dean? How is that Dean’s fault or problem?

    I also have an issue w/the writers ASSUMING that Dean knew that Sam had a death wish. I’m not sure why Sam keeps saying he was ready and willing to die as if Dean knew Sam wanted to die and actively prevented it or something. There was no way for Dean to know that Sam was itching to die so bad.

    As far as Dean knew, Sam stopped the trials to live. He saw that Sam was ready to go w/Death, but why does that mean Sam was ready to die? If Ezekiel could have “laid hands” on Sam, would Sam still be all upset? I honestly have no idea w/this Carver version of Sam, but real!Sam wouldn’t have been mad. Dean even says, “What the hell are you doing, Sammy” after he returns from Sam’s head. Maybe Dean thought Sam was ready to die, but that still doesn’t mean – at least to me – that Sam WANTED to die.

    I don’t know, Tammy. I’m not feeling that Sam would go out of his way to help Dean. I don’t think he would exert too much energy into saving him. Heck, he couldn’t even investigate his disappearance last year! I know I keep mentioning it, but that’s still just crazy to me. Your brother disappears. You’re left w/no body. And you deal w/the supernatural. So, you conclude, after pondering it for all of 10 seconds, that your brother is dead, and it’s time for you to get that life you always wanted.

    Not to rain on anyone’s parade. I’m happy you’re optimistic, Tammy, and I wish I could share your optimism but I have no faith in Carver.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 17, 2014 @ 12:33 pm

  441. Lisa, I thought that you, like me and some others, dismissed that disastrous story of Carver’s as a really bad mistake. It was just so OOC and made absolutely no sense in ANY universe, let alone Supernatural and the Winchesters’.

    I know Carver never gave an explanation or ‘admitted’ his mistake, but u think it was more an ego issue than a continuing belief in the story.

    And that’s the reason I don’t bring it up. I realize that you now think that Carver is sticking by it and continuing on his mission to ‘normalize and mature’ the brothers, and that is why it is now canon for you. It can not be so for me, not until I am shown more proof of the transformation of our Sammy into this awful new season 8 Sam. And if that happens, I really will not be able to watch anymore. That will be it.

    Comment by Tammy — February 17, 2014 @ 1:59 pm

  442. *The u in the second paragraph is supposed to be I. :)

    Comment by Tammy — February 17, 2014 @ 2:02 pm

  443. Yes, Tammy, I am convinced that Carver is sticking with his crap “maturity” story. There really is no other reason for all these made up problems btw the brothers that I can see. There has to be some purpose, and that purpose seems to be to teach Dean a lesson about letting Sam go b/c that is the supposedly mature thing to do.

    So, I definitely think he us changing the relationship. And some fans are excited by the imminent changes in the relationship, but they are more “character” fans than “brother” fans. From what I can see, most bibro fans are displeased with where Carver seems to be taking the show.

    That said, I will never stop thinking it was completely OOC for Sam to NOT investigate Dean’s disappearance last year. That will forever be a crap story, IMO. However, I’m just discussing the story as it is currently being presented, and from what I can see, Sam made a conscious decision to NOT look for Dean. He assumed Dean was dead for some unknown reason, and that was it. That is the “Sam” we’re dealing with under Carver. A Sam that won’t even look into his brother’s disappearance so I can’t believe that this Sam would exert much effort to save Dean if Dean really needed saving. I’m gonna have to see it to believe it at this point.

    Once this all plays out, I may view Supernatural in two ways: pre-Carver and post-Carver. Over on Spoilertv, people were trying to convince me that Dean expects Sam to do anything – even kill innocent people – to resurrect him. I don’t think Dean would ever expect that but who knows what “Dean” under Carver wants? I thought Sam wasn’t saying they weren’t brothers, but that’s exactly what he meant. Maybe Carver’s Dean does expect something crazy like that. I honestly don’t know. Carver is, IMO, messing around with the characters to the point where I don’t feel like I can say what they would do anymore or what they would think. They’re slowly becoming unrecognizable.

    Carver is not writing for an established show, IMO. he’s warping it into his own creation.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 17, 2014 @ 3:38 pm

  444. @ Tammy: I think what Sam meant was the they would hunt and share the crappiness of hunting, but they could no longer act as family; that if push came to shove, the mission came ahead of either of them, because their lives are worth no more than any other person on the planet.

    This, to me, is the reason given as to why they are still together and hunting. If, during a hunt, one of them can help the other out (like Dean killing the monster by cutting off it’s tongue to save Sam), they can do that. But if one of them is in a dire situation (like Sam dying by completing the third trial) then the other would have to let him die.

    To me, Sam’s words to Dean in The Purge were intentionally mean and intentionally meant to hurt, because Sam knows that Dean’s line will never be blood sacrifice, and that is what Sam was going to be doing if he completed the third trial.

    Sam’s words have to be intentionally mean because:

    1. Dean initially wanted to take on the trials, because he understood Kevin saying that the person who did so would be making a self-sacrifice. Sam did not believe that. He thought he could take them on, survive, and lead Dean ‘into the light’ — show him that there was life after the hunt.

    2. Cas caused the angels to fall, and even if they Gates to Hell would have been closed forever, the angels would still have fell. Now, the brothers could walk away from that, or they would be involved in it — that is the two options.

    As far as accusing Dean of only being selfish in all the sacrifices he has made, Sam is just being untruthful. I think he meant exactly what he said — as long as Dean isn’t the one left behind, he will make a sacrifice, but if it means Dean is left on his own, then he won’t make the ultimate sacrifice — which is to let Sam die.

    Sam is talking about quitting the trials and, again, Dean was not willing to let Sam make a blood sacrifice, and he gave Sam the reason why — that they know enough and have enough knowledge and resources in the bunker to not have kill themselves.

    I think Sam this year is exactly in line with Sam not looking for Dean in Purgatory. Sam, not knowing where Dean was, was not going to go to any extraordinary measures to try to find Dean and get him back. In Sam’s mind, Dean selling his soul to bring Sam back to life started all of the problems problems since; the Apocalypse especially.

    Of course, this is not true, because it was the brother’s love that prevented the Apocalypse. It was Cas that brought Sam back soulless, and Dean committed literal suicide to make the deal with Death.

    The Cas used Sam and breaking his wall to get Dean to leave the fight to stop his actions; so, again, it was Cas that released the Levi, and Sam and Dean took up that fight to clean up what Cas has done, while Cas went off and observed bees.

    Then the brothers thought they could end it all by closing the Gates of Hell and, again, Cas was stupid and the angels were released.

    This is the backdrop of what Carver says he is doing this season: ‘maturing’ the brothers and their relationship. It is a dishonest story, with Sam spouting the dishonesty. I can see a path to Sam maturing by saying that he was wrong and is sorry, but I do not see a path to Dean maturing under the circumstances, and that is what worries me: what is Carver going to do to Dean’s character.

    Comment by Sheri — February 17, 2014 @ 3:51 pm

  445. I believe Sam will do his damnest to save Dean. The mark of Cain is all but set up for it. Sam is distancing himself from Dean and it’s necessary so that Dean will identify more and more with Cain. Dean going on a dark path will help Sam realize that they are stronger when they are brothers.

    Comment by San Summer — February 17, 2014 @ 4:01 pm

  446. @ San Summer: Under your scenario, how do the brothers “get on the other side of co-dependency,” as writers like Glass and Beren tweet?

    What transformation can possibly take place where Sam realizes they are stronger as brothers — which is old hat? We’ve been told that since the S4.

    What is Dean going to learn and how will he mature? Will he learn to be more cautious and think things through before he acts? That is Sam’s character.

    If the Mark of Cain is going to play a big role this season, the show is going to have to hurry. As I said, we have the Tran’s episode, the Ghostfacer’s episode, Blade Runners (which we don’t know anything about), then the Crowley (Winchester lite) episode, two episodes after that with no synopses up yet, then the spin-off episode (which will be a support character episode), and then three to the final run (one of which I am sure will be dedicated to Cas).

    Out of the ten episodes left, there are six episodes that we don’t know about where they can play up the Mark in and wrap up the various balls they have in the air: the Winchester’s coming of age story, the Crowley/Abaddon war, and the angel war. That is four major plots for six episodes.

    Comment by Sheri — February 17, 2014 @ 4:24 pm

  447. @Sheri. I wonder if they attempt to approach it from an angle of getting Dean to a place where his self-worth / identity isn’t so wrapped up in how Sam is doing. It could work but on the other hand they are messing with really big things since one of the most prominent characterizations of Dean is that he feels his job is to take care of Sam.

    The co-dependency thing bothers me a bit. I’d love to hear what their definition of it is. Okay these are from Wikipedia but I wonder if this is where the writers are coming from in light of Sam’s dialogue in The Purge:

    “It also often involves placing a lower priority on one’s own needs, while being excessively preoccupied with the needs of others. — Codependency may also be characterized by denial, low self-esteem, excessive compliance, or control patterns. — Codependency describes behaviors, thoughts and feelings that go beyond normal kinds of self-sacrifice or caretaking. — People who are codependent often take on the role of martyr; they constantly put others’ needs before their own and in doing so forget to take care of themselves. This creates a sense that they are “needed”; they cannot stand the thought of being alone with no one needing them.”

    Dean saw how things were in 2014 when he hadn’t been there for Sam (“You weren’t with him?”, “We never tried to find him?”). Now if Dean starts to slip into darkness then I think that could help Sam remember that despite how much they have hurt each other over the years, them being brothers can overcome pretty much anything.

    Comment by San Summer — February 17, 2014 @ 4:55 pm

  448. @ San Summer: According to that description of co-dependent, the writers are walking a fine line of changing Dean’s whole characterization.

    Also, they can make Sam realize that he does value Dean with some big saving act (and Dean would then realize that Sam does love him), but that just puts everything back to the status quo IMO, and I would ask what was the reason for this whole season since the fans already know that — keeping in mind the Winchester coming of age is, or so far, has been the A-plot and everything else the B-plot.

    Honestly, I don’t know what the Carver has in mind or what these writers are trying to accomplish, and no matter what scenario I run in my mind, I don’t see a satisfactory outcome to what they have started. I just strongly feel that they are messing with something that should have never been messed with.

    Comment by Sheri — February 17, 2014 @ 6:21 pm

  449. Lisa – I guess I’m asking why you feel you can assume all casual viewers see the show the way you do? Do you have any evidence for that?
    My point was that I acknowledge that you don’t see Destiel and that’s a valid interpretation. But given the number of people who do see it, it would be nice if you acknowledged it was a valid interpretation as well.
    Emmanuel – other people bring up shipping and Destiel and I respond. I try to set the record straight when there are misconceptions or people are being factually inaccurate. I also try to explain the point of view of different folks within the fandom.
    What I don’t do is label a group of people unfairly, accuse people of saying/doing things they haven’t, and insult them for no reason.
    I really don’t know why you’re so angry about the shipping stuff, but I don’t think it has anything to do with me or anything I said. I didn’t even engage with you on the points where we disagree in terms of shipping. Mostly because you clearly have your mind made up and I don’t care if you ship Destiel or not. If you want a clear explanation of the Destiel point of view on most of the points you brought up, you can check out profoundbond.org and their misconceptions page. But if you’re happy being you and shipping what you ship, then terrific, I wish you joy.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — February 17, 2014 @ 6:38 pm

  450. @ Sheri- “Honestly, I don’t know what the Carver has in mind or what these writers are trying to accomplish, and no matter what scenario I run in my mind, I don’t see a satisfactory outcome to what they have started. I just strongly feel that they are messing with something that should have never been messed with.”

    –Seems to me no more than the same angst for angst’s sake that they been spewing out since mid-Season 5. I don’t fully subscribe to the notion that Carver’s really trying to change anything about the characters, that instead he’s just filling airtime with the one thing we *know* these writers love to do, write Sam and Dean arguing.
    That’s kinda sad, since Jensen has said repeatedly that he doesn’t really enjoy the brother-infighting. But, on the other hand, Jared loves it, so with no united front, there’s no pushback from the acting side of the production. Again, kinda sad.

    Comment by G-dawg — February 17, 2014 @ 7:01 pm

  451. @Lisa, Sheri. Thank you both, for your responses. Tbh, I do not or have any definite idea of where Carver is taking the show, but I really hope it is not what the general idea here seems to be. I guess we will have to wait and see, but it is really making me concerned and anxious.

    @G-dawg. You could well be right. Fighting just for drama and angst’s sake. But how sad is that. Jensen and the majority of fans hate the brothers fighting, Jared and the writers seem to love it. The second group seems to win every time, and they control the game. Just ONCE, can’t we have a season of the brothers united and focused on the hunting?

    Comment by Tammy — February 17, 2014 @ 7:57 pm

  452. @ G-dawg: How silly of me to momentarily forget just how untalented these writers are. I think you are probably right — CW angst for CW angst.

    Comment by Sheri — February 17, 2014 @ 8:03 pm

  453. Another thought I have during my Sam and Dean angsting… Perhaps the end game is not the ridding of codependency or whatever, but perhaps to do away with the dishonesty and trust issues. Without ending what they have now.

    But then, yes, that would require actual thinking and planning on the writers part, which we all seem to agree they’re not capable of. They should let us write the show :)

    Comment by Tammy — February 17, 2014 @ 8:10 pm

  454. Maybe Carver saw episodes like Season Seven, Time for a Wedding! and thought that was unacceptable.

    Waitress: So, what’s your deal?

    Dean: My deal?

    Waitress: Yeah, okay. You came in here looking like somebody shot your puppy.

    Dean: Well, things are looking up now that your shift’s over. All right. Uh, here’s the deal. I have this friend. He’s got this younger brother. Right? Cannon’s a little loose. You know, his reactor blew a while back. It’s not good. Um… My friend — he’s, uh… He’s kind of been sitting, waiting to see if he goes guano again.

    Waitress: And I assume it just hit the fan?

    Dean: Well, that’s the thing. It didn’t. The kid’s all reasonable now, considering he’s crazy. Well, he’s — I mean, he’s not crazy. He — he’s starting to seem like things might be getting a little better.

    Waitress: Well, that’s a good thing, right?

    Dean: It’s a freakin’ miracle. Except… when it happens during their, uh… their sacred annual pilgrimage to Vegas… and he goes off on some granola-munching hike in the desert by himself.

    Waitress: Well, maybe he just needs some time alone.

    Dean: Yeah.

    Waitress: We all need to face ourselves sometime.

    Dean: Maybe he does.

    Waitress: Wasn’t talking about him.

    DEAN’s phone beeps.

    Dean: Excuse me.

    DEAN’s phone reads:
    10:23pm
    From: Sammy
    348 Twain Ave
    WEAR FED SUIT!

    Dean: Speak of the devil. He’s four blocks away?

    Waitress: See? Baby bro needs you after all.

    ***

    Sam: You know what, though? Seriously? It might be nice.

    Dean: What?

    Sam: I mean, you basically have been looking out for me your whole life. Now you finally get to take care of yourself. About time, huh?

    Dean: Yeah.

    SAM gets into the car. DEAN stands a moment longer.

    Dean: Right.

    -> The look Dean has is far from the one when Sam said: “I do need you watching my back. Obviously.”. Seems to me like he’d rather focus on Sam than deal with himself.

    So maybe Carver took that and ran with it and in season 8 everything was heightened. How Dean was when Sam was sick because of the trials, saying things like:
    “Trial? I wouldn’t let you start a moped. We’re on the rails with this thing, okay, and the only way out of it is through it, believe me, I know. And you know how bad I wanna slam the door on all those sons of bitches. But you gotta let me take care of you, man. You gotta let me help you get your strength back.”

    Comment by San Summer — February 18, 2014 @ 4:16 am

  455. @t1gerlilly:
    First of all, shipping doesn’t make me angry. It’s HOW some people ship what makes me angry. Notice that I said I knew there are very nice destiel shippers, but what pisses me off is that you keep insisting that Destielers are all peace and love and you refuse to acknowledge that part of your fandom who is so the most agressive bunch of people I’ve ever seen in a fandom. And they are A LOT. And I think you are purposely oblivious, but you are not fooling anyone

    I’ve been dealing with them for almost four years, so I’m sorry T1gerlilly, no matter how many times you say they don’t send hate to anyone who don’t ship their ship (including Jensen and the writers)or that they don’t want Sam out of the show, I’ve witnessed it over and over and over again for YEARS. Actions speak louder than your words. I’m not saying they are they majority, but they are certainly a lot.

    Why do you think so many people are starting to be really sick of them? You really think the bashing the writers got because only because they said that something that is not there… is not there is OK?

    And you wonder why Jensen has always such a bad reaction? It’s because they are incredibly rude and agressive. Why do you think he hates the mere mention of Destiel but he doesn’t mind bringing up Wincest or compare the brother’s relationship with romantic relationships at cons, or buying Jared a Wincest phone case as a joke? Because he ships it? NO, because Wincest fans are way more respectful, they can difference between canon and fanon and they put the brothers relationship in front of everything else, just like him.

    I never minded if people ships it, but it’s their behaviour what sickens me and many others. And using the LGTB cause it what pisses me the most, because those poeple (who are manly STRAIGHT women, by the way) are using real problems to try to force a fanon ship into canon between two characters that have nothing to do with gay people, because one of them is not a man, is an angel who is using a borrowed human body.

    Shipping is fun, but when a group of people gets so obsessed with it’s not even happening of the show and they spread their propaganda in Tumblr, Youtube, FB, etc… then, there’s a problem. When people from the show who gets bashed for not doing aht they want… there’s a problem. And when people tell you to kill yourself over and over for years because you don’t ship what they ship… there’s a problem.

    So EXCUSE ME if I can’t stand the Destiel bullshit anymore. You gotta understand that some people get sick of them. In my opinion, they earned it.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 18, 2014 @ 4:16 am

  456. Ok, I meant “mainly” straight women, not “manly” XD!

    Comment by emmanuel — February 18, 2014 @ 4:27 am

  457. The vessel thing is a big issue. Sometimes when Dean and Cas have a heart to heart or buddie it up I wonder what Jimmy would think. “Don’t mind me you assholes.”

    Also Cas was ready to be a 13-year-old girl…

    Comment by San Summer — February 18, 2014 @ 4:40 am

  458. Sorry guys, I know I said I wasn’t going to talk about this anymore. I always read all of your comments and this conversation is off the topic. I’ll stick to my word from now on

    Comment by emmanuel — February 18, 2014 @ 4:40 am

  459. I thought the shipping conversation was over?

    Comment by G-dawg — February 18, 2014 @ 4:40 am

  460. Yes, G-dawg, you are right. My apologies.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 18, 2014 @ 4:48 am

  461. T1gerlilly, I never said all casual viewers must see the show the same way I do. I just pointed out that the online fandom of any show is small in comparison to the larger audience. I honestly do not think the majority of Supernatural viewers “see” Destiel. I think most viewers consider Castiel a friend of the brothers. I doubt they view him as a romantic interest for Dean.

    As far as interpretations go . . . . I hope this doesn’t offend but, no, I don’t think Destiel is a valid interpretation of the show. I think Destiel comes from people reading into things that are simply not there. I feel the same way about Wincest. I do not feel there has been anything presented on this show that would lead me to believe Sam and Dean or Dean and Castiel are romantically interested in each other. There is simply nothing there on either front for me to make that leap. I consider myself to be an objective person, and I have no objection to gay people. I’ve used this example before but if anyone watches Dexter, there was a gay mobster in the second to last season. They were trying to keep it a surprise, but many of us guessed that guy was gay early into the season. To me, it was quite obvious actually. It’s hard to explain if you didn’t watch the show but his sexuality came as no surprise to most of us.

    I honestly feel if there was something there with Dean and Castiel, it would be a bit more obvious, and it wouldn’t be something that only a select few see. That said, if people wish to ship them, I don’t care. But to call others crazy or blind for not seeing something there is where I think the line is crossed. Jensen and the writers have clearly stated that Destiel has never been intended by the show. Jensen has said Dean is a heterosexual male. I figure he’s grown tired of answering the same ship questions, and I can’t say I blame him. Those questions put him Ina lose-lose situation, and I think the shippers are wrong to do that to him.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 18, 2014 @ 5:17 am

  462. I think if fans like to imagine two characters together, if it makes them enjoy the show more or if they write fanfiction about it, that’s great. But I honestly don’t see anything between Dean and Cas other than friendship, nor do I think for a minute the writers intend for anyone to see them as a couple. I actually think it’s pretty obvious they are not anything more than friends. These are both totally straight guys.

    Comment by jackie — February 18, 2014 @ 6:43 am

  463. San Summer, I’m not sure what Carver is trying to accomplish but I do think the lesson will be Dean learning to let go of Sam. This bothers me because that lesson was already learned, and we’re retreading old ground.

    I don’t think TFAW is good evidence that Dean is preoccupied with Sam because Sam was in a crisis during that time. In HCW, he went off with a hallucination and was shooting at the air! Dean was, rightfully, concerned about Sam’s well-being and if Sam would be okay without him. I will also note that Dean “let” Sam go on that trip. He didn’t follow Sam or force Sam to return. That says a lot, IMO.

    I definitely think Dean has defined himself as Sam’s protector and savior. That’s how he views himself. He was tasked with protecting Sam from such an early age that I think it would be incredibly difficult for him to just stop. In ways, Dean is more like a parent to Sam than a brother, and your parents never stop caring or worrying about you.

    That said, I do believe Dean wouldn’t prevent Sam from leaving if that’s what Sam really wanted to do. Just last year, Dean encouraged Sam to be with Amelia if that’s what Sam wanted. I think we’ve seen ample evidence that Dean can let Sam go over the years. He prefers to be with Sam but he doesn’t have to be with him. So, I’m not sure what the lesson is supposed to bs here, and like Sheri, I’m worried about how Dean will be changed after Carver is done with him.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 18, 2014 @ 7:27 am

  464. @ San Summer: When the conversation too place with the waitress, Dean was worried about Sam’s hellpain. I hated Time for a Wedding because of the stupid Becky, but it ended up being a nothing but a useless extra episode in the season for this reason.

    S7 showed Dean spiraling downhill in depression, and throughout the episode, I thought it showed Sam, when not under Becky’s spell, as being really angry because Becky had put Sam in a position of being ashamed because Becky was putting him in the position of ‘betraying’ Dean. When the spell was wearing off, Sam clearly was choosing Dean. But Dean, with his many eyerolls in the episode, knew something was up and didn’t take Sam’s rejections seriously. Dean was on the case, and the case was rescuing Sam again.

    In brief, I don’t think that episode can be used as showing anything co-dependent on the brothers’ part or in dealing with any of the issues either of them have.

    I had hoped that this episode was the first steps Sam was going to take to help Dean for a change, instead of having Dean always taking care of Sam.

    Comment by Sheri — February 18, 2014 @ 7:41 am

  465. Waitress: And I assume it just hit the fan?

    Dean: Well, that’s the thing. It didn’t. – - -

    Waitress: Well, that’s a good thing, right?

    Dean: It’s a freakin’ miracle. Except… when it happens during their, uh… their sacred annual pilgrimage to Vegas… and he goes off on some granola-munching hike in the desert by himself.

    -> the part about “Except… when it happens during their pilgrimage to Vegas” could be seen as problematic (maybe the writers didn’t intend that). No one wants to party in Vegas alone but what she says next kind of reveals the real reason:

    Waitress: We all need to face ourselves sometime.

    Dean: Maybe he does.

    Waitress: Wasn’t talking about him.

    -> This ties to Dean’s reaction shot when Sam says Dean “gets to finally take care of himself”. It seems to imply that Dean is more comfortable when Sam is his top concern. Ties into the waitress saying: ”See? Baby bro needs you after all.”

    Sam’s words convey that Dean has had to take care of Sam for a long time. Sam apologizes for the crap he said under the influence but the word choices by the writers were consistent and pretty interesting:
    “You know, I went after her, Dean. Maybe that’s what’s bugging you — that I’m moving on with my life. I mean, you took care of me, and that’s great. But I don’t need you anymore.”

    Although Dean does acknowledge at the end of the episode:
    ”I’m just saying. It’s stupid to think that you need me around all the time. You’re a grown-up.”,

    I think the show might still be coming from an angle of Dean needing to be comfortable with the idea of (Sam) moving on and not think that there is no him without Sam or that he can’t live with Sam dead. I worry though how they are gonna pull it off :/

    Comment by San Summer — February 18, 2014 @ 8:17 am

  466. @ animal and roxi I have my reason for comment #307. Might I suggest, if you have it, that you view season 6 and 7 gag reel pay attention to episode “clap if you believe” and “out with old” gag scene which led me to my conclusion. I am not saying that jared is gay or homophobic, only he knows that. I am however saying that I THINK he is a closeted gay man, and jealous of those who are out and proud, hence my “thou does protest too much” quote. As for jensen never said he has gay… actually stated the opposite. To be frank while it bothers me when one person teases another for being themselves as I THINK jared does about the gay crew member.
    I couldn’t care less for either of the actors’ sexual preference. I do however care very much of the characters sexual preference. I don’t ever want to see dean or cas get it on. not even if they pulled a freaky friday and dean is trapped in a woman’s body or if for some reason cas has to ditch jimmy’s vessel and hop into a woman. No No No NO NO! But you are right, horny little slasher fans are allowed to dream. I just hope the writers and show runner never takes it there, because I sure as hell don’t want to see it. I think it would be a detriment to both characters.

    Comment by AlIM — February 18, 2014 @ 10:14 am

  467. San Summer – I still say that that would be retreading old ground. Dean did learn to let Sam go. He did that in S5.

    IMO, S7 cannot be used as an example of Dean needing to let Sam go b/c Sam was supposedly in a “bad way” during most of the season. He was hallucinating on a daily basis so naturally Dean was worried about him. In TFAW, Dean was especially worried b/c Sam had gone off on a trek on his own. For all Dean knew, Sam was hallucinating most of the time and shooting at the air again.

    We look no further than S8 to see evidence of Dean being willing and able to let Sam go. He told Sam to go to Amelia if that’s where Sam wanted to go.

    I just can’t get behind this idea that Dean is unable to let Sam go. Yes, Dean is used to taking care of Sam. Yes, Dean prefers Sam to be w/him, but I think he is fully capable of being w/o Sam.

    JMO.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 18, 2014 @ 12:21 pm

  468. Exactly, Lisa1. I can’t get behind this ci-dependency thing either. I don’t know where it came from, unless it’s straight from fanfic.

    Comment by Sheri — February 18, 2014 @ 1:45 pm

  469. I can buy Dean slipping from Swan Song development because that was an extreme situation, literally about the apocalypse. Then the year seemed to be very hard for him. Of course it was influenced by his knowledge that Sam was being tortured but couple that with how he felt at the end of season 2 and I could imagine Dean thinking that he is not himself if Sam is dead.

    Also what he said in season 7 episode 2: “You cannot be in that crater back there. I can’t… If you’re gone, I swear, I am going to strap my Beautiful Mind brother into the car and I’m gonna drive us off the pier.” Will that just be dark humor moment or did it convey something deeper about Dean?

    Hopefully this storyline will mature them in a sense that they cut back from all the lying. I feel like this should be the rock bottom – lying about your brother being _possessed_ – considering their feelings about being vessels.

    Comment by San Summer — February 18, 2014 @ 2:46 pm

  470. Hi, lurker here :p.

    I wanted to put in my $0.02 on where the writers are trying to take the Winchesters. I’m more optimistic than some on here, but that is what it is. But my own pet theory is that Carver et. al. are trying to keep the closeness and “epic love story” aspect of the brothers, without all the ugly bits. I think when Carver’s referring to “co-dependency,” I think he means the uglier parts of it- Dean clinging on and doing morally ambiguous things to keep Sam around, Sam so caught up in what Dean thinks of him that he was willing to essentially die to (in his mind) redeem himself to him in Sacrifice. Both of them lying and fighting and feeling hurt (Dean) or suppressed (Sam) and never able to really enjoy their relationship because it’s always so fraught with old hurts and misunderstandings. Their frequent and basic conflicts- Dean views Sam’s independent streak and dislike of hunting as a lack of love for him; Sam views Dean’s clinging and protectiveness as not trusting Sam/just wanting a warm body around.

    On a side note, has anyone else noticed that on the occasions Dean has “allowed” (for lack of a better word) Sam to go do as he wants, such as S8, Sam either decides he doesn’t want to leave, or returns quickly?

    I certainly hope Carver doesn’t mean to get rid of the close relationship- he’s an idiot if that’s his plan, and as others have pointed out, he’s written some very good brother episodes in the past. But I think he’s trying to finally clear up some very old conflicts between the brothers so they can move forward and actually be happy with each other.

    Now, from my armchair they could do a better job. As others have said, they’re kind of rehashing issues that had been put to rest in Season 5 (Sam finally got assurance from Dean that Dean views him as an equal, Dean learned to let go of Sam for the greater good). And I dislike the idea that it may take a good chunk of the remainder of the season to do this. But I certainly hope that Carver is leading the brothers back to something resembling (but not mimicing) their early-season bromance, and not trying to turn them into strangers.

    Comment by Jaytee — February 18, 2014 @ 4:27 pm

  471. I will say in Carver’s favour, that when he took over he said he was going to spend a lot of time on the boys’ “perceptions” of events and each other, and this he has done, even if it’s been hard to watch at time. Those basic conflicts were usually undercurrents in the previous seasons, but came out in the open in S8. Sam said he thought Dean was dead and that they’d agreed not to look for each other..and that there was eventually a girl, and then there wasn’t a girl. Dean heard “your disappearance didn’t faze me and I ditched you for a girl.” Dean said to Cas that Sam was going to be doing an extremely dangerous procedure without a chaperone. Sam heard, “Dean thinks I need a chaperone or I’ll screw up again.”

    I think both Dean and Sam want contradictory things from each other as it stands, and it’s untenable. Dean wants Sam to have that same destructive, world-ending reaction to things happening to Dean, but without the destruction (what he really wants is assurance that he’s a big deal in Sam’s life- when pressed, I’d have to think Dean really wouldn’t want Sam “to do the same for him”). Sam wants to be closer to Dean than anyone else, but wants Dean to take it on the chin if he dies or retires from hunting, and to continue hunting alone (an idea he floated to Dean in early S8). What Sam really wants is assurance that Dean does indeed trust his judgement, and perhaps, he wants to know that he could lay down the mantle someday and still have his brother on his side regardless of how he chooses to live.

    Comment by Jaytee — February 18, 2014 @ 4:39 pm

  472. @ Jaytee: Who knows what Carver wants, but I will say that what you write that he perhaps is trying to do is the most boring thing I can think of for this show. That is the problem, I think, as I have stated. Watching a coming of age story for two grown men is flat out boring, while all of the good stuff, an even stuff that was hinted at in sub-text, was interesting: The Mark of Cain, did Abaddon want Dean as a vessel and why? The two ‘gangs’ of angels fighting with each other (is that over?). Crowley’s chess moves with Abaddon.

    Those were all potentially good stories to be told…and what do we get? A 3-week break waiting for Snooki to appear. Kevin coming back…just like Bobby…as a ghost. Mrs. Tran, who was annoying as hell when she was around the first few times.

    I don’t know if there will be any follow up on the great Sam declaration or not after this break, but that’s the spoilers we have to look forward to for the next episode.

    Comment by Sheri — February 18, 2014 @ 4:58 pm

  473. Some guy on Twitter brought up the question of who the big bad is for season 9.
    I say Dean is the one who will turn out to be the Big Bad.
    Apparently bringing down Metatron will be Cas’s story.
    I would prefer for Sam and Dean together to kill Gadreel, but at least Sam should get to do that.
    I don’t think Dean will kill Abaddon. My feeling is that he will embrace the darkside and join her instead. Which will put both Sam and Crowley against him. The only variation I could see is her possessing Sam, since apparently he hasn’t had time to get another anti-possession tattoo.
    But Sam has already been possessed so much, by Meg, by Lucifer, by Gadreel.At this point Sam should just start charging rent.

    Comment by roxi — February 18, 2014 @ 5:41 pm

  474. @ Jaytee- ” in S8. Sam said he thought Dean was dead and that they’d agreed not to look for each other..and that there was eventually a girl, and then there wasn’t a girl. Dean heard “your disappearance didn’t faze me and I ditched you for a girl.”

    –Interestingly, that’s what a lot of viewers heard, too, even Sam fans! Many noticed last season that for whatever reason, Sam often seemed *annoyed* that Dean was back. It really didn’t make any sense. Which is why I’m one of the ones who’d prefer to pretend the first half of S8 didn’t happen. :)

    Comment by G-dawg — February 18, 2014 @ 6:21 pm

  475. From the spoilers I’ve read, there is no time for a “big bad” to emerge this year. I agree with Sheri that I don’t expect much follow-up on Sam’s words until the season finale. The only overarching story has been the brother relationship. Everything else seems to be happening in the background. If Dean does “go dark,” maybe they’re saving it for next year? Who knows?

    Jaytee, I think you have a good theory as to what Carver may be doing, but I agree with Sheri that much of that is ground the show already covered. Dean “learned” to let Sam go and to treat Sam as an equal. And Sam was not, IMO at least, intent on killing himself to prove a point to Dean. He just wanted to finish what he started. As usual, Sam didn’t say very much in Sacrifice but I believe he didn’t want to let Dean down or fail as he had in the past. Dean convinced Sam – much like Cas did this year – that the mission was not worth Sam’s life. But now Carver seems to be saying the mission comes before their lives. The message is all over the place.

    I feel there is a either a lack of clarity from the top down (i.e., Carver is not making it clear to his team what story he’s trying to tell) or a lack of quality, creative writers who are capable of telling an overall story and carrying out Carver’s vision of the show. It’s probably a bit if both.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 18, 2014 @ 6:23 pm

  476. G-Dawg – I am one of those fans who wrote off early S8, but I can tell I’m going to have to write off Carver’s entire run as showrunner of the show. But, yes, Sam seemed quite irritated and annoyed by Dean’s return. It was very OOC to me.

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 18, 2014 @ 6:28 pm

  477. @ roxi: I guess if you were to pick one big bad, that would be Metatron, but I don’t think there is a big bad per se. It’s Crowley against Abaddon and Cas against Metatron (I’m guessing with the help of Sam, Dean, and Gadreel).

    I still don’t think we will see Dean going darker than he is. Your guess is as good as mine, though. I hope I am wrong and the Winchesters have some active role to play.

    Comment by Sheri — February 18, 2014 @ 7:00 pm

  478. @jaytee. I guess I prefer to stay a little more optomitic than a lot of posters here. I just won’t be able to watch the show anymore if I was to believe some of the things Carver has Sam do and say. So, like you, I prefer to remember that he did manage to write some of the best SPN shows, and try to have faith that he is doing kind of what you write.

    I do think it is, whatever ‘it’ is, being done really badly. For all the reasons yoy e all written.

    @roxi. I don’t think Dean is going to go that dark. I don’t think the writers are that bold and have that much imagination. The big story seems to just be the brothers relationship antyd the wars in the background.

    But who knows, lets hope we are all pleasantly surprised.

    @g-dawg. Definetely one if those who dismisses Sams story and behavior early season 8, but I hope we don’t need to do that for this season as well. Not sure I can be that much of an ostrich on the sand :)

    @Lisa. Couldnt agree with you more. The messages, stories, characters are all over the place. I really hope that theyre able to get us to some satisfactory place, otherwise what a waste of a great shoe and great characters.

    Comment by Tammy — February 18, 2014 @ 9:06 pm

  479. TV Guide’s Mega Buzz describes the Pilot for the spin-off:

    “Do you have any scoop on the Supernatural spin-off? — Jonah

    Supernatural: Tribes will air its backdoor pilot in the 20th episode of this season and longtime SPN fans will notice more than a few similarities to the original series’ pilot. After the death of a loved one, the show’s protagonist, Ennis, is dragged into the world of hunting and monsters. It comes as no surprise that Sam is far more sympathetic to the wannabe cop than his brother when they run into Ennis working a case in Chicago. And while Tribes lacks Supernatural’s beloved sibling angst, Ennis has his fair share of Winchester-level daddy issues.”

    I think this spin-off sounds terrible, but it appears that Sam still can have some feelings for people (if they are not his family). I envision Dean growling at Ennis to not hunt, because hunting is too awful.

    Comment by Sheri — February 19, 2014 @ 3:40 am

  480. I realize that none of the storylines I described will probably materialize. I know too that the the MOC arc won’t get anywhere this season.
    Really, I just wish that it peaked Sam’s interest just a tiny bit. You’d think that it would, no matter how angry he currently is at Dean. But then, Dean isn’t too worried about it either.
    I must be the only one who wants Dean to really go very dark. For me, it would be a chance for Jensen to have the only potentially interesting story arc he’s had in years. But right now it looks like just more of the same teasing “Dean will have an important storyline this season”, but then yeah, no. I really want to be wrong about this.
    But to be totally fair here, it currently doesn’t look like Sam has much of a story either. The main story for both Sam and Dean seems to be that they’re at odds with eachother yet again.
    Who gets the stories? Why the supporting cast of course! Cas has his fight against Metatron and the rogue angels, and Crowley has his fight to regain control of Hell from Abaddon. Speaking of which, we’ve hardly even seen much of her, and it seems to me that a lot of her sting and badassery have been toned down.
    It would have been interesting to see Abaddon possess Dean, and I thought we were led to believe that might happen, but no, now I’m fairly certain if she possesses anybody, it will be Sam, because they didn’t get him a new tattoo for no good reason right?And no offense to Jared, but geez, we’ve already seen Sam possessed by supernatural entities a bunch of times, it would have been interesting to see Dean possessed by a demon this time. Not to mention the fact that it’s starting to get a bit disrespectful to the character of Sam that he’s always the one to get used that way.
    I have no interest in the spinoff past Sam and Dean’s part in it. But then, SPN is the only CW show I’ve ever watched or garnered my interest.
    Sheri, I want to believe that Sam still loves Dean, he’s just really pissed off right now. I also believe he’s really more hurt than angry, and I hope we see that soon.Although I stand by my belief that Sam has every right to be pissed off about the Gadreel possession and Dean’s lies and trickery, I want to believe that the other, more hateful things he said, that he really didn’t mean, or only meant in the moment of extreme anger.

    Comment by roxi — February 19, 2014 @ 5:02 am

  481. When Crowley first appeared inside Sam I was confused by his reaction. But now I think that him looking around and saying: “Not bad” was meant to convey that he was admiring Sam as a vessel. I mean if it’s good enough for Lucifer…

    So maybe the possession thing is not over. Gadreel was playing a game with really high stakes when he taunted Dean to put a blade through Sam’s heart. He seemed to be set on having Sam. But I agree with roxi that it could easily be too much to have Sam possessed yet again.

    I’d rather see Dean “possession” be related to the mark but not literal.

    Comment by San Summer — February 19, 2014 @ 5:47 am

  482. With you Roxi on the spinoff. Could care less. Don’t even think it is good for SPN. If it is a success, CW can have a younger, more desired teen demo SPN audience, which CW targets, and not have to negotiate with J2 about seasons beyond 10. They’d have to pay J2 even more than they earn now per episode for any 11th or 12th season. Agree too, Dean and Sam don’t seem to have much of a story except the challenge of two 30 year old actors trying to play two overly sensitive 12 year olds stomping around and throwing tantrums about their hurt feelings. Meanwhile Dean’s Mark of Cain seems little more than a regrettable tattoo and the MOL non-story, so filled with promise for Sam, seems nothing more than Carver’s way of dumping the Winchesters’ on-the-road aspect and getting them out of those seedy motels. Looks like we are going back into the muddled Angelfest/war and guest of the week showcase with special episodes we are supposed to watch because “This is a spinoff” and “This was directed by Collins.”Second part of season does not look promising.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 19, 2014 @ 6:29 am

  483. Haha Sheri @ your line about Sam having feelings for people as long as they aren’t family. LOL!!

    Comment by Lisa1 — February 19, 2014 @ 7:28 am

  484. I’m still wondering how these stupid writers are going to get around the fact that the bunker is impenetrable with Kevin hanging around as a ghost. I guess because he was killed inside of it? The Wicked Witch walked through with Dorothy, who DID NOT have a key.

    From As Time Goes By

    LARRY
    Because it is the safest place on earth, warded against any evil ever created. It is impervious to any entry, except the key.

    Comment by Sheri — February 19, 2014 @ 8:25 am

  485. That was the whole point of the bunker, after all! It bothered me a lot as well, the fact that the writers could just forget/overlook something so important.

    My annoyance at that got overtaken by my irritation at the silliness of the episode and Charlie’s ‘awesomeness’, though.

    Comment by Tammy — February 19, 2014 @ 10:02 am

  486. @ Tammy: Couldn’t agree with you more. When Thompson writes another Charlie episode, I’m not going to watch it. I can’t stand the character!

    I am disappointed that the only reason to have the bunker is to use it as a stationary set design. I am also wondering if Crowley shows up in the bunker, as well as the Kevin. I couldn’t tell from the promo clip.

    Comment by Sheri — February 19, 2014 @ 11:30 am

  487. If Dean salted and burned Kevin, then why the hell is he hanging around as a ghost? Isn’t the whole point of that to keep them from hanging around as ghosts? Was there some part of Kevin left behind, like Bobby’s flask? And if so,after the Bobby experience, wouldn’t Dean have been smart enough to make sure everything was done right? (don’t answer that, this is SPN).

    Comment by roxi — February 20, 2014 @ 4:47 am

  488. I love Dean but for every example of him showing brains and ingenuity,we get another 2 or 3 where he’s in functioning moron mode.The SPN writers just seem to love doing that to him.

    Comment by roxi — February 20, 2014 @ 4:51 am

  489. Yes, the MOL Bunker has been thoroughly compromised; it has become the Winchester Visitors Center hosting a wide variety of demons, angels, and assorted associates. People in Oz, for god’s sake, know where it is and who lives there. Dean and Sam’s cover was they had no residence–that’s blown. They may well get regular mail delivery at this address. Will not be surprised if Dean has a facebook account sharing his life there with all the people he considers family.
    The Bunker as a refuge was a great idea. Apparently however, the Bunker and the entire MOL theme were both one-time justifications for creating a standing set. The Bunker’s files also replaced Bobby (and the failed Garth replacement of Bobby) as the source of experience and advice. The writers are free to ignore the ground rules set up when the Bunker was introduced and the MOL idea seems to have been an idea no one feels any commitment to develop. As Time Goes By created a great deal of interest; it was one of the few new ideas with promise of the Carver era. Pity its new theme for the boys has been dropped for endless and badly confused angel crap and Sam-Dean hissy fits.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 20, 2014 @ 6:40 am

  490. @ CaseyT: “Winchester Visitors Center” Ha! Perfect description. And you are right, especially about their cover being they did not have a residence.

    It’s remarkable how every single interesting this show has ever come up with was dropped for something that could not have been more boring: the idea of the brothers being descendants of Cain and Abel, the idea that they were top shelf hunters, introducing the Campbell line (God, that turned out awful), the Legacy idea. Now we have the Mark of Cain, totally unused, and we are awaiting the arrival of Snooki (who obviously can’t act any better than Paris Hilton could from the few seconds I saw of her in the clip).

    The amazing part of all this, too, is that it was under Carver’s reign that the bunker was introduced and the idea that it was impenetrable, and then they trash that to write a stupid Charlie episode.

    Comment by Sheri — February 20, 2014 @ 7:24 am

  491. B****y h**l! After seeing one of the early season episodes, I have to admit this: They’ve really managed to ruin a great show, great characters and a great relationship!

    And yes, Sheri, it’s amazing how they managed to do that and ignore every interesting storyline in the process.

    Really sad, that. And I’m really angry. What a disservice to the show!

    Comment by Tammy — February 20, 2014 @ 1:04 pm

  492. I have a very hard time believing either Jared or Jensen wanted Snooki to appear, just like I don’t think they were thrilled about Paris Hilton. Of course they’re professionals and good sports, but I always got the feeling that they are far too down to earth to want to associate with such shallow Hollywood types. I seem to recall Jensen sort of making fun of the Hilton sisters on Chelsea Lately. I think stunt casting like that is more about the CW trying to appeal to it’s super young dynamic, one that SPN no longer fits.
    Yes, the super fortified bunker. One that apparently anybody can get into. I wonder if anybody saw Sam or Dean shoveling snow outside?
    And the writers seemed to forget that theyh introduced a whole huge garage of cars in the bunker, because Dean for some reason needed to drive the piece of crap Cas came up with.
    Except for the Gadreel connection, the angel story and revenge on Metatron is Cas’s story. I guess we’ll get THAT and Crowley’s plot against Abaddon for the rest of the season and the MOC and Sam and Dean getting Gadreel will carry over to next season.Meanwhile Sam and Dean will ‘try to keep busy” on meaningless MOTW hunts and be pissed at eachother.

    Comment by roxi — February 20, 2014 @ 2:36 pm

  493. I’m accepting of the mark of Cain going till season 10 because the show deserves and needs to have something big that is all about the Winchesters’ story when it comes to the possible last season or at least closing the three season arc.

    Comment by San Summer — February 20, 2014 @ 3:06 pm

  494. More on the spinoff from SpoilerTV:

    “Aussie Nathaniel Buzolic and Brit Lucien Laviscount have landed the leads in Supernatural: Tribes, the planted Supernatural spinoff, which will air as an episode of the veteran sci-fi series on April 29.

    Written by Andrew Dabb and directed by Robert Singer, Supernatural: Tribes is described as a sweeping drama about the various mafia-esque monster families that unknowingly to humans “run” the underbelly of Chicago and who are being tracked by a newly minted Hunter who’s trying to stop them and rid Chicago of anything or anyone supernatural. Buzolic plays David Hayden, a shapeshifter from one of Chicago’s ruling monster families; he has been living as a human, having given up the monster life years ago. Laviscount plays Ennis Roth. When his fiancée is killed in the crossfire of the monster war, the resolute police academy trainee learns the truth about what lurks in the shadows and becomes a monster-hunter himself.”

    Apparently, Buzolic played a recurring role on TVD and The Originals. Lucien Laviscount is British and an African American who had an arc on a BBC/Showtime comedy. He looks like he can do angst, which I am sure there will be a lot of in his role as the mourning survivor.

    There is no way in hell I will watch this show. It sounds way, way too CW for me. SPN 9.20 with these characters will air Apr 29th.

    Comment by Sheri — February 20, 2014 @ 3:30 pm

  495. I’m intrigued by the choice of the character name. I love Brokeback Mountain and I remember reading that Annie Proulx has said that Ennis means island. Definitely sounds like it could be fitting.

    Comment by San Summer — February 20, 2014 @ 6:27 pm

  496. I might be pronouncing it in my head wrong, but all I think of when I read “Ennis” is the deputy on The Dukes of Hazzard. :)

    Comment by G-dawg — February 21, 2014 @ 3:55 am

  497. I found out that it’s a place in Ireland: Ennis (Irish: Inis, meaning “island”) so maybe that’s where Proulx got it. But of course there is no way of knowing if Andrew Dabb put that kind of meaning behind the name or if he chose it just because he likes it. :D

    Comment by San Summer — February 21, 2014 @ 5:44 am

  498. I have nothing against a spinoff, I just have no interest in it, much like I have no interest in any CW show except SPN. It sounds to me like they want to keep the SPN formula going, but with younger actors. As if 30 somethings Jared and Jensen are old. Kind of ridiculous. At least that’s how it looks to me. I guess anybody over 25 is considered”old”
    by CW standards.
    But you know if someone enjoys it, more power to them.

    Comment by roxi — February 21, 2014 @ 6:21 am

  499. Is there a clip of the new episode anywhere?

    Comment by roxi — February 21, 2014 @ 8:17 am

  500. I feel like this break came at a really unfortunate time. And to know that the next episode has a lot of Cas but probably features very little Sam because of Jared’s baby… So I’m sure there won’t be that much development in the brothers’ relationship but maybe Dean will now move forwards a bit since he can’t hold on to his “it was the right thing / I would do it again” like he did before.

    Comment by San Summer — February 21, 2014 @ 8:50 am

  501. @ roxi: There is the one clip that we saw at the end of the last episode. The CW has it and so does Utube. Then there is an extended clip that has this one and the next one with the Ghostfacers. That’s about it.

    The coming one looks to be mostly about Cas and Bartholomew, which means to me that they are moving Cas as lead in the angel story. Out of the 10 promo pictures, only two or three of them have the Winchesters in it.

    @ San Summer: I think there won’t be any less of Jared than there is Jensen in this one. Last time Jared had a baby, the episodes weren’t Sam light in any way.

    Comment by Sheri — February 21, 2014 @ 10:51 am

  502. ^ I remember that Jensen and Jared were already on a Christmas break when Misha and the crew had the show’s holiday party. So it could very well be that Jensen and Jared have equally little time. But I don’t believe that the episode “won’t be Sam light in any way”.

    Sucks because there has been this long break and probably the new episode won’t really be about the brothers. I remember DJ saying that he missed Jared because Jared was off making babies. Sam not being in the episode Sharp Teeth wasn’t at first obvious until I noticed that the episode was coming to an end and I had a moment of wtf? This is it? We spent all that time on the werewolf pack? So I suspect that Captives will be similar. But hopefully the Kevin thing will disguise it better because it is all about the brothers.

    Comment by San Summer — February 21, 2014 @ 11:33 am

  503. @ San Summer: Well, babies come when babies come and SPN has always tried to schedule so that JP can be there. JA scheduled his first one to arrive during the summer break, which was smart.

    I’m not interested in developing Cas as a character, nor am I interested in an episode just so they could make use of Orsic again and re-introduce Mama Tran. I don’t know about Kevin, but we’ll be seeing Mama back again, I bet, and I didn’t care for her character all that much, either.

    I am sure she and Kevin can berate Dean some more in order to push along Dean’s depression and lack of self-worth and try to make Sam sympathetic. That’s usually the way it works.

    Comment by Sheri — February 21, 2014 @ 11:53 am

  504. Fans have been complaining that Dean revolves around Sam etc. etc. Well, the only way there is gonna be any change in the dynamic is if Sam wants it. So I hope Sam won’t be vilified and Dean victimized by the fans.

    I suspect that there will be now a lot of episodes that feature Cas because I’m sure the people behind the show don’t want to feel like they paid for nothing.

    Comment by San Summer — February 21, 2014 @ 12:44 pm

  505. The only dynamic I wanted changed in the series is for Dean to have a story. I sure didn’t want Cas as a regular and I sure didn’t want Cas to get the story before Dean gets one after being with the show for nine years.

    Comment by Sheri — February 21, 2014 @ 1:40 pm

  506. Yeah the Cas thing is a little confusing to me. I mean Jared and Jensen are leads on their own TV show. That’s huge for any actor. Must have been especially gratifying for them because they used to carry the show since both were almost in every scene. I have read theories that Jared and Jensen wanted more time off so that’s why Misha has had a bigger role. But on the other hand I wonder why would Jared and Jensen want to “give up” part of their own show / their character’s story / their importance / (negotiation power)? It doesn’t feel like they want to phase out of the show since Jensen called for a meeting with the writers.

    Comment by San Summer — February 21, 2014 @ 2:07 pm

  507. JA, JP and, I think, Carver are signed on through S10. I never thought I would say this, but I would be okay with JA not renewing his contract. He’s not getting anything from this show and the show just keeps getting worse. Obviously, they are setting it up for ending and using it this season to set up a premise for the spin-off.

    Comment by Sheri — February 21, 2014 @ 3:47 pm

  508. It kind of bugs me that neither of them have producer credit. Maybe they don’t want the responsibility but the show has kind of been their baby so you would think they’d want to have more say in how the show and the characters are developing etc. Season 10 might be the last one. I think they have lasted this long basically because they are so close in real life.

    Comment by San Summer — February 21, 2014 @ 3:54 pm

  509. I don’t know what is involved in an actor being named a producer. I don’t know if it means more work and more pay, or just what and how that would benefit the Js. I know the Writer’s Guild has rules that all writers associated with the show be named producer.

    Comment by Sheri — February 21, 2014 @ 4:20 pm

  510. I thinks it‘s not that unusual for key actors to be executive producers on their show. Seems like at least Jensen would be interested because he has directed also. But maybe it’s a money thing and people behind the scenes don’t want Jared and Jensen to get an even bigger slice of the pie. The actors are probably already going to get residuals when the show is in syndication.

    Comment by San Summer — February 21, 2014 @ 4:37 pm

  511. SPN is already in syndication, on TNT. Has been for years.

    Comment by roxi — February 21, 2014 @ 5:19 pm

  512. Yeah but I have a feeling that as producers they could demand even more. But I’m not sure why the producer thing has been a no go. Seems like the actors still care what happens to their characters so why not take more control in how the show is handled.

    Comment by San Summer — February 21, 2014 @ 5:29 pm

  513. It IS a money thing and it is common to make stars producers to increase their share of the income from the series. SPN is already producer-rich; look at the endless credits.It doesn’t require any directoral talent; its a primarily a title that brings more money. Jared’s already said producer status could be a way to go beyond 10. Don’t know if Warners would do this. The show is old, the stars are ancient by CW standards, and the stars are required to recieve a raise per epidose for new seasons. In addition, if the spin-off is a success Warners/CW will have an excellent barganing chip in that they have a younger SPN and no compelling reason to spend much more on old stars and an old series. My guess would be SPN will end at 10.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 22, 2014 @ 10:33 am

  514. It sounds so funny Casey, doesn’t it,to think of 30 something young men as “old stars” I guess that makes me Solylent Green material.
    To me, Jared, Jensen, and Misha are STILL the best looking men on TV, and certainly the CW.In fact, I don’t the boys fully grew into their good looks UNTIL.they got into their 30′s.
    I agree that 10 will probably be the last.

    Comment by roxi — February 22, 2014 @ 1:57 pm

  515. Agree with you fully Roxi. J2 have also matured as actors and hopefully their developed talent and good looks will open up some opportunities for them in the business as they move forward from SPN into projects that aren’t targeted to teens. The general public really doesn’t know these guys. It will be interesting to see how their careers develop.

    Comment by CaseyT — February 23, 2014 @ 7:44 am

  516. Casey, you should see the pics from 9:15. both so pretty!

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