“Bloodlines” Discussion

Post your thoughts on tonight’s back-door pilot for the potential Supernatural spin-off and let us know if you think it would make a good TV show. Check out my full recap  HERE or keep reading for my quick thoughts.

First, a warning. This is NOT an episode of Supernatural. Sam and Dean are barely in it, so please don’t bother complaining about it. This episode is absolutely a pilot for a new show that happens to exist in the same universe as the Winchesters and features them in glorified cameo roles.


With that out of the way, I guess I’ll review this as a potential new series for the CW. For the most part, I think I’m hooked. The ensemble nature, plus romance and family drama, all make it feel more like a CW drama (The Vampire Diaries or The Originals).  Let’s be honest, as good as Supernatural is and as much as we love it, it often feels like an adopted child in the CW family, off on its own, being successful but not really sticking with the same formulas that work for everything else. That’s great for SPN, but if the show’s writers want to sell another show to the network, this is the way to do it.


What I loved most is Nathaniel Buzolic as David Lassiter, the college kid who uses his shapeshifting powers to steal test answers and who still pines for his werewolf ex. He’s funny, charming and would make an excellent main character for Bloodlines. Moreso than Ennis, who ends this episode by becoming a murderer, which was a twist I didn’t see coming.


Ennis is OK, but I think a potential bromance with David is where the show would go, and those two working together would make for a pretty entertaining series, I think.


As for the others, we didn’t see a whole lot of Margo, Julian and even Violet. This episode mainly established David and Ennis as the two protagonists.


It’s an interesting world, and obviously one that could provide a lot of stories. With all of the different monster agendas (djinns, vampires, ghouls and wraiths have already been referenced, besides the shifters and werewolves), I would gladly watch Bloodlines on the CW this fall. They certainly set up more than enough mysteries and storylines to make CW executives comfortable knowing that this show has a lot of ideas.





News posted on April 29, 2014 Comments (188)


  1. Awful !!

    This was badly acted, badly written, miscast and a total redux of The Originals (but nowhere near as good).

    The CW would be idiotic to pick this one up to series.

    Comment by JJA — April 29, 2014 @ 6:00 pm

  2. So, spoiler alert: fucking terrible.

    There were 2 good things about this show: Sam and Dean.
    They didn’t fight, they killed a vamp.

    Honestly, the villain would have been awesome in a different episode as a harvester or Jack the Ripper type character.

    The first blade preview was cool. In a corpse? Disgusting, and awesome!

    Will not watch the spinoff ever. Like, ever.

    Comment by Thomas A. — April 29, 2014 @ 6:03 pm

  3. No. Just. No.

    Comment by Donna — April 29, 2014 @ 6:08 pm

  4. No No and No-You don’t have the main character kill a human as a first kill over the monsters in a pilot episode that is supposed to be a spinoff of supernatural.

    I agree JJA-there was absolutely NOTHING unique about this episode. I see the same crap on TVD and the Originals and even the mother ship that started all this Twilight. I was never going to waste my time watching Bloodlines anyway but man that was not too good.

    On a better note-Dean gets thrown by Abaddon!!! yes!! She captures him!! Now that is interesting to me. Sam to the rescue maybe?? That’s what you guys want to happen -Hope it goes that way for you guys!!! Although I want Dean to rescue himself-Either way though I would be happy as long as its not Cas. Less Cas the better for me. Get rid of the angels-even better!!

    Comment by animal — April 29, 2014 @ 6:09 pm

  5. 3. So the human was the monster, and the monsters were the victims? Good grief! Does PC have to infect EVERYTHING?

    Comment by JT — April 29, 2014 @ 6:13 pm

  6. If the only problem with this episode was a human being the villain, we’d still have a salvageable concept. The problem with this episode was EVERYTHING. The whole thing was awful.

    I really do believe this was the worst episode of season 9 and season 8 (even worse than “Slumber Party”). You have to go back to season 7 to find something this awful.

    It’s a real shame they did this as a backdoor pilot. I really wish I didn’t see it.

    Comment by JJA — April 29, 2014 @ 6:23 pm

  7. @4 animal, well said! I completely agree, especially with your last paragraph. I did think the young actor who played Ennis did a fine job, though. Too bad the writer ruined the character by turning him into a cold-blooded murderer.

    Comment by JT — April 29, 2014 @ 6:25 pm

  8. @2 You don’t beat around the bush, Thomas A. Love your post!

    Comment by JT — April 29, 2014 @ 6:30 pm

  9. Im with JJA

    the only problem with this episode was EVERYTHING.

    Comment by Bedlam — April 29, 2014 @ 6:32 pm

  10. Psssst. CW. If you’re bent on a spin-off. Angels. ANGELS. Give the freaking angels a show. There is an established fanbase that loves the angels, and another established fanbase that wants them the hell off SPN. Win-win. Cas can move in between (as can the Winchester Bros on occasion), Misha gets more work and the die-hard angel fans will still tune into SPN when he’s there, die-hard brother fans might tune into the Angel Show when the brothers show up.

    Alternative spin-off ideas: Jody and Alex, Men of Letters, Campbell adventures, vampirates, freaking Charlie. Just on the off chance this one doesn’t work out.

    I’ll be expecting my cheque in the mail. You’re welcome.

    Comment by Jaytee — April 29, 2014 @ 6:39 pm

  11. I didn’t care for this episode, but I did like it that Dean called Sam, “Sammy” twice.

    Comment by Valerie — April 29, 2014 @ 6:40 pm

  12. My God, Kim Manners must be turning over in his grave over this one.

    These children could not act. It was so indistinguishable, I could not keep track of one guy from the other. The girls were bitchy. The exposition was long…and the worst part was that they actually call this a back door pilot and then go about trashing all previous canon they set up from not only the mother ship, but a long history of werewolf lore. Werewolves can change at will — oh please.

    And then they actually had the main character — the lead — murder a human in the Pilot. Dear God. That made so much sense when, in fact, if he were arrested, put on the media, blah, blah, blah, all of the families would have been privy to what was going on not just college boy’s sister(sorry, I can’t remember his name — was it David?)

    The one good thing (and take this as tongue-in-cheek) is that I did not notice the J2s being in on screen any less than we have seen them in many SPN episodes this season or last.

    Please, please, CW, don’t pick this one up. I can just see nine years of all SPN mythology trashed next season to accommodate this awful mess — and the reaper stuff still leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.

    Comment by Sheri — April 29, 2014 @ 6:43 pm

  13. Yes the actor who played Ennis was very good. Realy the only good actor that I saw. I am curious though where does Carver and company think they would take that character. Is he going to hunt the families?? Ummmm-he already knows where they are and who to ask if he doesn’t. No hunting necessary. He already likes the shapeshifter and the werewolf. Ahhh who cares-I am not watching it anyway.

    Comment by animal — April 29, 2014 @ 6:47 pm

  14. I thought the actor that played Ennis was NOT good at all and couple that with writing a character being a smartass to the only people who were giving him answers (i.e., the Winchesters) and you have a really dumb character.

    And where would said dumb character be taken? He will look at a John Winchester case wall and track down the specific monster who killed a specific human while snarking with the other boy monster that he snarked with in this episode.

    (Sorry, I can’t remember one name from the other of these characters, and there was not one of them that would make me care or hope they achieved something.)

    Comment by Sheri — April 29, 2014 @ 6:59 pm

  15. Yes Sheri but Ennis is a monster now because he killed a human so he will have to put his picture on the wall and hunt himself right? lol. My gawd do they realize what they wrote?” Now I understand totally why we get the type of stupid writing we have been getting on SPN.

    Comment by animal — April 29, 2014 @ 7:04 pm

  16. Well on to the s9e21. Hopefully better things are starting next week. peace!!

    Comment by animal — April 29, 2014 @ 7:06 pm

  17. That bad, huh? I had an event tonight and couldn’t watch live. I recorded it though. Is it worth watching at all?

    Comment by Lisa1 — April 29, 2014 @ 7:30 pm

  18. Dean called Sam “Sammy” in the previous episode, which was weird enough, but saying it twice this time around really tells me that Dean is changing. He doesn’t tend use Sam’s nickname when they are working and in the company of a civilian they just met etc. Maybe Dean might start to see Sam as less competent?

    I feel like Supernatural was robbed of Sam and Dean being in a genuine location that can’t be duplicated in Vancouver. Hopefully, they have some nice footage stashed away which they can later use to establish that the brothers are on a case in New York, Boston or something like that.

    Comment by San Summer — April 29, 2014 @ 7:31 pm

  19. PS. Windy City was not the best fit to Sam ;D

    Comment by San Summer — April 29, 2014 @ 7:39 pm

  20. Havent watched it yet. Guess i have to prepare myself for the worst!

    @San Summer. What do you mean about Chicago and Sam? Oh. The hair…!

    Comment by Tammy — April 29, 2014 @ 7:49 pm

  21. So Dean and Sam Winchester guest-starred on a pilot for a teen fiction TV series.

    Tonight- for the first time- I watched an entire episode of “The Originals”. This show seemed like a spin-off of THAT show- not Supernatural.

    Only a few episodes left in this sputtering season and the inept asses running this series waste one of them on this crap.

    Dean and Sam (and Jensen and Jared) seemed tired in every scene here. They knew they were wasting their time. But at least the actors got paid.

    Next week I hope SOMETHING happens in regard to the Winchesters- the STARS of this show.

    I am beginning to think the idiots running the show have no idea who Dean and Sam are.

    Comment by SL — April 29, 2014 @ 8:20 pm

  22. 8/10, would watch again.
    The usual haters will sing the same song, but I hope they make this spinoff, and that it lasts as least as long as Supernatural.

    Comment by brx — April 29, 2014 @ 8:43 pm

  23. It was ok and I did like the bromance with Ennis and David.

    Though I’d honestly prefer the writers focus on making season 10 watchable. Nathaniel Buzolic could just go play Kol on Originals/TVD

    Comment by Scott — April 30, 2014 @ 1:16 am

  24. I suppose this is cw’s attempt to get the tween/teen age group. Camera shots were good but little else unless you are 16 or under. It’s like 90102 w fangs – the network did put a bunch of cute folks on screen hoping to pull folks back.

    Plot it was like a slow soap opera
    Monsters were good it was the human who was evil (human you know like the fan base)
    Just didn’t hold your attention – I actually left the room and just listened to it
    Really the young colored actor blows the human away w/out a second thought? At least SPN causes the characters in SPN sets the example that killing people is wrong. Not so with this one – human apologizes, kids doesn’t look to justice he does street logic and blows him away.

    Based on this alone I would prevent the Tweens/ teens from watching so now who would watch?

    Comment by Oprjaz — April 30, 2014 @ 3:40 am

  25. I’ll admit, I stopped watching around 38 minutes in. I’m not sure why they stuck the SPN title on there, because it wasn’t SPN. Forget the total lack of Sam/Dean, the monsters were all *different* than the monsters lore we know. Werewolves changing at will, wraiths as bouncers, vampires walking around outside in daylight (remember S1, it doesn’t kill them, but they stay indoors!), and (I honestly can’t remember) don’t shifters have to shed their skin when they change?
    And where were all the hunters when these five “families” were carving up one of the largest cities in America?
    This show had all the pitfalls of the usual CW suspects, and just insulted the SPN name by slapping it on and making the guys guest star on it.

    Comment by G-dawg — April 30, 2014 @ 3:44 am

  26. Nothing original or interesting here. And the writing of and for the 3 female characters was atrocious. The human character dies almost immediately, the werewolf female is an emotional, weepy mess until she goes psycho, and the shapeshifter female is apparently incompetent or unlike able because her male henchmen were obviously looking forward to the return of her brother.

    Comment by Tao — April 30, 2014 @ 3:48 am

  27. I have to say, I agree with EVERYONE on this one. It was aweful. #20 if you still haven’t seen this episode yet, don’t waste your time. The only good thing about the episode was Sam and Dean. (and they weren’t in it all that much)

    Comment by angel67 — April 30, 2014 @ 5:00 am

  28. Sam and Dean as secondary characters in the storyline of others; all too typical season 9 use of the Winchesters. Thankfully, they seemed totally out of place in this one, old characters from the original called on to lend some credence to the “modern” sequel ten years later. And, at the end they were called to perform much the same task in similarly teen targeted Castiel angel show. Seemed more like “The Originals: Chicago” than anything from SPN, and I was so impressed that Violet’s makeup held up perfectly though assault, kidnapping, a little bondage, torture, and a rumble with a bad guy. I guess the whole season 8 plot of blocking demons from earth was a silly pipe dream in SPN; no one considered Chicago. The kid who played the lead has the muscles, looks, and some acting talent to play a Dean knock-off and become a CW star. If this is what teens want to watch, I don’t see any real harm in it. Gorgeous girls and beautiful boys, lovers tragically parted, plenty of teenage angst–should create plenty of action on twitter during those boring middle school classes.

    Comment by CaseyT — April 30, 2014 @ 5:32 am

  29. Got to wonder if CW picks this thing up if SPN fans would have legal standing to bring a class action case to prevent attaching the name Supernatural to it? SPN fans have been so important a part of the success of SPN they could well argue they have a vested interest in protecting the name Supernatural.

    Comment by CaseyT — April 30, 2014 @ 6:08 am

  30. From what I’m reading online, I think it’s safe to say reaction to this episode is “mixed” at best.

    TV Guide basically skewered it, and TV Fanatic wasn’t much kinder.

    One bright spot: Nathanial Buzolic got some good reviews for his acting, BUT I’d rather see him back on The Originals as Kol.

    The other main character (the guy who played Enis) was basically panned.

    Comment by JJA — April 30, 2014 @ 6:13 am

  31. @ CaseyT #29: “The kid who played the lead has the muscles, looks, and some acting talent to play a Dean knock-off and become a CW star.”

    Did you really think so, Casey. I thought he was the weakest actor of the bunch. I thought the guy who played Julian (I think that was his name) had some talent.

    I agree that the middle-school girls might like something like this. Considering texting in a iPhone, though, they might go for the iPhone.

    Comment by Sheri — April 30, 2014 @ 6:22 am

  32. I thought that David was good in some scenes. He actually seemed more like the lead. The preview gave a bad first impression though. Ennis also had some good scenes but I’m not really buying him as a vigilante. If Ennis and his girlfriend were meant to parallel Sam and Jessica, I’d say the latter had a bigger impact.

    The family/war stuff wasn’t that great and I wasn’t feeling the Romeo/Juliet aspect. It doesn’t put the monsters in a very sympathetic light that many human children would die because of the families’ grab for power. Shouldn’t the good monsters in that case say screw bloodlines, we need to protect innocent people even if it means taking out family members? Especially since some don’t seem to enjoy their monster side like the werewolf girl who was shook up after her transformation.

    The werewolf lore kind of gave some uncomfortable sexual connotations which might actually turn out interesting if they dared to explore the issues of hierarchy, men and women’s place in society etc.

    This might be more of a superficial concern but I think it’s tough to pull off a monster look that is appealing at the same. Acting like an animal can very easily come across as silly / embarrassing instead of sexy, scary or tragic.

    Comment by San Summer — April 30, 2014 @ 6:57 am

  33. ugh! Finally saw it. What really struck me (apart from how bad it was: story, canon-trashing, acting, etc etc), was how out of place Sam and Dean seemed in it. I guess the direction, camera shots were differently done or whatever, but it just felt like I’m seeing Sam and Dean in a guest appearance in some other CW show for teens. Nothing felt like Supernatural.

    Again, ugh!

    What a ridiculous time to air this episode too! The next three better be real good and ALL about the boys.

    Comment by Tammy — April 30, 2014 @ 7:00 am

  34. @Tammy.

    Misha said, “Cas is definitely on point and on mission in the effort to try to track down Metatron and right things in heaven. His mission and the boys’ mission will converge and they will be working together again, quite heavily. Cas is pretty involved in four of the last six episodes of the season, so we’ll be seeing a lot of him.”

    I have a feeling they’ll be mostly separated in episode 21 though. Dean will interrogate/torture an angel and Gadreel seems to be more Cas’ business.

    Comment by San Summer — April 30, 2014 @ 7:25 am

  35. @San Summer. So lots of Cas. Yay. Not. :(

    I really wonder why they didn’t have Cas be on point to lead the angels to the spinoff.

    Comment by Tammy — April 30, 2014 @ 11:09 am

  36. I was watching The French Mistake again today. Really enjoyed it. Even though season 6 wasn’t as good as the early seasons, at least it was mainly about Sam and Dean! The difference is startling from the episodes these days.

    And Sam… God! they’ve really f*ed up his character royally. Here’s a bit from the episode:

    “DEAN You know that if we drop Virgil, get the key, then this might be it. We might be stuck here.

    SAM No, we’ll figure out a way back.

    DEAN Yeah, you wouldn’t be that broken up if we didn’t, though.

    SAM What? Don’t be stupid.

    DEAN Well, I’m just saying. No hell below us, above us only sky.

    SAM Dean, our friends are back there.

    DEAN Yeah, but here, you got a pretty good life. I mean, back home, the hits have been coming since you were 6 months old. You got to admit, being a-a bazillionare, married to Ruby, the whole package. It’s no contest.

    SAM No, you know, you were right. We just don’t mean the same thing here. I mean, we’re not even brothers here, man.

    DEAN All right, then. Let’s get our crazy show back home.”

    Just sayin’…

    It makes me really sad, to see the show as it is in contrast to what it was. Unfortunately, Carver just didn’t get what it was about, even though I was so excited when I heard the writer of MS and AVSC was going to be showrunner. Little did I know what he’s going to turn the characters and show into.

    Comment by Tammy — April 30, 2014 @ 11:21 am

  37. Last night’s episode reminded me of what I’ve long considered a major problem with SN (aside from Castiel, of course).

    In the early days of the series, monsters were presented as truly monstrous. Wendingo, the Rawhead, the Scarecrow, Shadows, and other such entities were alien to humans. They hid in twilight landscapes or dark, secret places; their realm was the realm of nightmares. Typically, they could be glimpsed only briefly, so their attacks came without warning–and, when they attacked, it was with brutal, horrifying finality. There was no negotiating with these creatures, no chance of compromise, and, for the ordinary person, no more hope of escape than from a pack of ravenous lions or a group of hungry sharks.

    Such monsters slither out of the depths of the primitive brain, linking us with our primordial ancestors–small, puny beings, exposed and vulnerable, living and dying in abject terror of the darkness, of the vast unknown. In those early days, SN knew how to tap into our primitive fears–not only by means of special effects, but through the masterful use of remote locations, bad Vancouver weather, night filming or filtered lighting, disturbing music, and the unshakable sense that Sam and Dean were alone out there, battling a kind of evil few humans ever suspect exists.

    Then somebody turned up the lights, “Scary Just Got Sexy,” and monsters of all varieties–as well as demons and angels– suddenly became human. Now, “monsters” dress in the latest styles, attend to their hair and makeup, crowd into bars, hang out in palatial homes or the hood, weep, joke, have sex, get addicted, deal with family problems, fall in or out of love, form their own Chicago Mafia–even set up spas and other successful businesses. Oh sure, they’ll turn their teeth to fangs, flick a snakelike tongue, flash red eyes, growl, hiss, or perform some other bit of schtick to let us know they’re REALLY monsters under the skin. But they’re not at all monstrous, and they’re certainly not frightening. Viewers might have a clinical interest in how a special effect was achieved, but do we ever actually suspend disbelief to the point where the metro dude or the hot chick seems like a scary supernatural entity? Not likely.

    SN is a scary show–but not because of its monsters or demons. It’s only scary, as least to me, because I’m concerned about what will happen to Sam and Dean. As a horror show, SN’s a joke. It wasn’t always that way. So how did it happen?

    I suspect the major problem is that SN’s writers don’t believe in the supernatural. Worse, they can’t even get themselves to pretend to believe in the supernatural. Narcissistic, materialistic, secularist, and anthropocentric in their outlook, to them man is the central fact of the universe; all that exists can be reduced and interpreted according human values and experience. Thus, God is a crotchety old man, Death is a guy who wolfs down fast food, Satan has daddy issues, and an angel, demon, or monster is just another extension of ME.

    Comment by JT — April 30, 2014 @ 1:05 pm

  38. What can I say folks. The angels are a draw. The Cas-Dean interaction is a draw. The writers are trying to get bums in seats for the last three episodes, so naturally we’ll have Cas working with the brothers. Sam-Dean interaction is pretty well a given :p.

    Let’s talk promo? Looks pretty good- and intense! So looks like Gadreel might at least consider defecting, and it looks like Sam will intervene somehow into the Dean- Abaddon fight. Oh, and Dean fights Abaddon! I’m excited for the end run! My god, if they could write like that every episode.

    Comment by Jaytee — April 30, 2014 @ 1:10 pm

  39. Sheri–I was trying to find something positive to say. The kid did seem to be trying, and he was an attractive fellow. Yes, I thought given CW he might have the looks and be sufficiently talented to be a CW star. He has years to develop.
    Sheri, JT, Tammy–I’ve never watched an entire standard CW episode until last night. It is clearly for teens or pre-teens, people who want multiple strong outlandishly emotional outbursts. Got to be filled with hormones not to be exhausted quickly by all those emotional outbursts. Its for people, the overwhelming number of whom, have never experienced any death, deep and complex love, or human responsibility. Nothing wrong with the genre; it fits a human development period and advertisers love to hook buyers in that age group, lots of disposable income and 60 years more of purchasing life.
    It is clear SPN’s principal writers are hack Hollywood producer-wannabes in the business to get rich. Dabb it turns out is more than willing to write for the CW format. SPN is old and this would be a lucrative new job for him. Glass too seems more than willing to write for the CW target audience even if that means axing J2 and bringing in young actors of this caliber to star in SPN.
    SPN never fit a CW profile, it was more complex, worked tirelessly to perfect a slowly developing canon, constantly experimented with new monsters, sought unique characters, thrived on proven (not the latest) music, and its dialogue did not assume every emotional twitch had to be overdramatized and spelled out verbally as if it audience was 12.
    Now, SPN is being pushed more and more in the standard CW direction. There is no Kim Manners or Eric Krepki to push back. The amazing thing is that SPN pioneered the horror, monster genre on CW which has now almost come to dominate the network. Rather than keeping it as a standalone anchor series, the trend is to make it simply one more CW series tailored to people with short attention spans and who think a year is a lifetime. Sam and Dean did look awfully out of place last night; their story never fit the CW profile, and they don’t fit what SPN is becoming. Angels and Castiel do and that is coming to the fore. J2 are talented actors who care about their characters and consistency for those characters; none of those characteristics are important to the CW.

    Comment by CaseyT — April 30, 2014 @ 2:25 pm

  40. So is Abaddon’s “shocking bargaining chip” Crowley’s son? If Crowley hadn’t become addicted to human blood, I guess Gavin wouldn’t have a chance in hell of escaping whatever dire fate Abaddon has in store for him if dad doesn’t agree to kill the Winchesters.

    Comment by JT — April 30, 2014 @ 2:26 pm

  41. @35 Tammy

    “Yes there has [been discussion of that] and no, that wont be happening,” Collins told TV Fanatic in regards to a potential Tribes appearance. “I think it’s designed to be very standalone so they’re not going to be bringing a lot of characters in. The characters that are introduced in the episode will be the spinoff series characters but they’re not going to be carrying characters that have had long arcs on Supernatural over into the new show.”

    – So Season 10 is coming, and there’s a spinoff in the works. Do you have thoughts on where you want Cas to go, and has anyone talked to you about how the “Supernatural” mythology would be connected to the new show?
    – The spinoff very pointedly is not going to have any characters that carried over from “Supernatural.” All the series regulars of the spinoff are introduced in the spinoff episode, and none of the standing characters from the “Supernatural” universe are going to be in the new series.

    Doesn’t sound that positive. If the angels weren’t thought to be strong enough to carry their own show, doesn’t it indicate that there might be problems in the original show? Yet the writers went ahead with angel factions etc. like Malachi who hasn’t been seen since his introduction although it was in the mid-season finale.

    @JT. Count me in as one of those who would love for Supernatural to be scarier! Now they just tend to do their signature shot of blood splatter on the wall. Wtf… Be like Metatron and steal from horror movies if nothing else. Also why can’t they light the show darker? It seems like season 6 was the last one. I guess using more mundane settings is cheaper.

    Comment by San Summer — April 30, 2014 @ 2:36 pm

  42. @41, San Summer, in S4 or 5, Sera Gamble was asked how long Castiel would be Dean’s angel–or something like that. She said, “Forever” or “Until Dean dies”–I can’t remember which. Anyway, I don’t know if such a thing is possible, but maybe Collins had it written into his contract that he’d be on the show as long as SN lasts. I wouldn’t be surprised if he had. He knows how to capitalize on his popularity with a certain segment of the audience.

    Comment by JT — April 30, 2014 @ 4:05 pm

  43. @39 Casey T, you said it perfectly. Pie in the sky, but I’m actually hoping the CW puts the spinoff on the schedule on the chance that Dabb, Glass, and the rest of SN’s Teeny Bopper scripters will move over there. Next step? Bring back Kripke as show runner and let him hire some of the great writers from S1. (Gamble need not apply.)

    Something like that should be seriously considered. If S10 is the last, and the series goes out riding high in the ratings, a successful film or two could follow next. You listening, Mr. Kripke???

    Comment by JT — April 30, 2014 @ 4:22 pm

  44. @42 JT. Misha seemed like he wouldn’t have been opposed to being on a spinoff which makes sense because then he would have probably had a starring role. But I think ultimately he and other people behind the scenes know that most of Castiel’s popularity comes from his interactions with one particular character. If Cas was removed to a spinoff then I bet many Castiel fans wouldn’t end up liking that because even though they’d see their favorite character in every episode, it wouldn’t be enough and they’d want to see him with Dean. That wouldn’t really be feasible because Jensen can’t do two shows at the same time. And Dean and Cas are never gonna be the co-leads on a show as long as the original show Supernatural is alive (Sam is alive).

    Comment by San Summer — April 30, 2014 @ 4:26 pm

  45. If that mess is picked up has a series, I won’t be wasting my time watching it. I can’t believe I’m saying this but the only reason I watch is for J2. The season started off so well. What happened? The relationship between the brothers has been totally destroyed and the character of Sam has been ruined. Why don’t we see Sam fighting anymore? Is it because he has lost to much weight and Mike Carpenter can’t stunt double him anymore?

    I always wanted this show to end with me not wanting it to end, but I am a long way from that. I hope the next three episodes are good, but I am not holding my breath.

    P.S. Mr. Singer and Mr. Carver: Forget the spin off and fix the original, PLEASE!!!!!!

    Comment by mj — April 30, 2014 @ 4:54 pm

  46. little late in the discussion, but I need to get this out..

    I watched spn from the very beginning.. THE VERY BEGINNING. And never, NEVER Had I fast forward an episode on first watch… Until now…

    This was horrible, and painful. I am so sorry for the actors, is not their fault. I can’t believe the writers did this, the director, the producer..

    They didn’t respect the spn canon, and rules, and it was like a slap to my face. There are fanfics BETTER than this, writers who respect the characters’ voices and the canon!!

    This… It just sucked balls.

    Comment by Troya06 — April 30, 2014 @ 4:57 pm

  47. @45 mj. Re: “Why don’t we see Sam fighting anymore? Is it because he has lost to much weight and Mike Carpenter can’t stunt double him anymore?”

    I’ve seen people comment on Sam looking tired or even peckish. I wonder if it’s intentional. Sam must feel pretty worn down by everything that has happened to him from the trials, Gadreel and Kevin to how his relationship with Dean went south. I’d like to know if the writers have consciously chosen Sam to be the one that tends to get tied up and rescued. Maybe it’s just to showcase Dean’s mark of Cain powers though.

    Comment by San Summer — April 30, 2014 @ 5:20 pm

  48. Bloodlines was clearly a bust (and there is NO WAY the network will pick it up now), but there are still some great spinoffs they can do based on Supernatural. Some Ideas that I’ve heard are:

    1. Prequel set in Wild West (featuring the Campbell family)
    2. Ghostfacers: The Series
    3. A resurrected Ellen & Jo in the Roadhouse (focus on hunter society)
    4. Krissy & Co. learning to be hunters
    5. Men of Letters spinoff

    ALL of these would have been better than Bloodlines.

    Comment by JJA — April 30, 2014 @ 5:38 pm

  49. @44 San Summer, you’re absolutely right. It’s all about Dean and Castiel as far as Castiel fans are concerned. I think it’s interesting, though, that we’ve seen so little interaction between Dean and Castiel this season. And what of Sam’s speech in the finale of S8 when he said, “Who are you going to turn to next time instead of me? Another angel, another…another vampire?” (JP’s performance in that scene never fails to break my heart. It’s probably the most revealing Sam speech he was ever given.) That line not only suggests that Castiel can be replaced by “another” angel, but that he’s pretty much on the same level with Benny. A friend. Not “family”–not a brother. Despite the fondest wishes of Castiel fans, Castiel may not be buddying up too much with Dean, Sam, or both. Collins’ job next season, like this one, could be to fill in with angel business when JP and JA want time off.

    @45 mj, I didn’t notice that we haven’t seen Sam fighting, but now that you mention it, he hasn’t. There was that confrontation with Magnus’ monsters and Sam’s rescue of Dean from Crowley’s storage center demon, but those were very brief fights. I think I remember reading (here?) that JA asked the producers for more action sequences. He was right to do that. Of course, I guess the problem is that the boys can’t very well fight demons or angels the way they fight monsters–which is a good reason for bringing more and better monsters on the show. This business of stabbing angels/demons gets pretty dull. On the other hand, I guess things will pick up (or fall down) when Dean gets the blade.

    @46, Troya06, you express my sentiments exactly! It’s bad enough that the CW has always treated SN like the red-headed stepchild, but now it’s own producers are using it as a vehicle for their little pet project–and, worse, neglecting SN in the process. If these people want to create a new “horror” show, fine. There’s no reason to exploit SN in the process. “Bloodlines” was no spinoff and certainly no tribute to the original. Aside from using the 2Js for a few scenes, it had no more to do with SN than do a half dozen other horror shows on TV.

    Comment by JT — April 30, 2014 @ 5:46 pm

  50. That’s “its”–sorry! I’m thinking that if the producers want an SN spinoff, they might think about building a series around the mid-20th century Men of Letters and hunters of the time. I wouldn’t mind seeing Magnus again or Henry and other members of John’s family. Maybe not, but there are numerous possible spinoffs that could work a whole lot better than “Bloodlines.”

    Comment by JT — April 30, 2014 @ 5:57 pm

  51. @48, JJA, just saw your post. I’ll take door #1 or door #5, please. The good thing about the Men of Letters is the series has already put quite a bit of meat on those bones. But Henry needs a brother–maybe a hunter. Would that be too redundant?

    Comment by JT — April 30, 2014 @ 6:05 pm

  52. @49 JT. I am intrigued by how Carver made a point of Sam saying “another angel”. If he’d left it at “Who are you gonna turn to next time instead of me?” then people could have said oh Sam wasn’t talking about Cas. But he was and still Dean said he had never put anything before Sam. And I like that Dean stayed with Sam despite everything. If he had dumped Sam and taken off with Cas and Benny like some wanted, I think it would have cheapened his speech to Sam in that church.

    Did it seem to any of you that maybe Sam didn’t fight with all his might against the monster that was trying to kill him in episode The Purge? Perhaps Sam gets tied up etc. because the writers want to intentionally show him as being off his game. Then again he did a solo hunt in Mother’s Little Helper and I think it would be a bit unwise if the writers implied that Sam does better alone.

    Comment by San Summer — April 30, 2014 @ 6:20 pm

  53. I haven’t watched a single scene of any episode of any show called The Vampire Diaries, The Originals, True Blood, Doctor Who, The Walking Dead, and other show except Supernatural bcz all those other shows r the copy of one Monster of Supernatural and Spn is all in one.. So, I don’t know if this new show called “Bloodlines” is like TVD or The Originals etc etc but yeah its story is so common… I think in TVD, a vamp loves a girl and in this show, a shap shifter loves a were wolf…. I hate love stories whether they are simple or supernatural ;-)
    But it was a good episode…
    and as far as the “Backdoor Pilot” is concerned… I haven’t even got the exact definition of this word… :-/
    SO if any of you know, plz tell me….
    and I think SPN Fans should chill, it was a new show. Its nice that our show promoted it.. Now who cares whether the show gets popular or not… Our favorite show has got enough fame since 2005 and its getting more fame day by day… So, v should all just support SPN and wait for the finale episode of Season 9 which is gonna be awesome for sure :-)

    Comment by Warah — May 1, 2014 @ 3:17 am

  54. The Walking Dead is an excellent show that I would recommend to anyone. Excellent show!

    Arrow is also good. For me, Arrow is the, now, the best show on the CW. I still haven’t watched Bloodlines yet but it doesn’t seem like I’m missing much.

    San – Jared was sick last year during the trials but I don’t believe he is again this year. Whoever styled his hair during early S8 with Amelia should return because it was goregous then. I don’t think the actor works out as much as he used to but he clearly still does given his appearance in TP.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 1, 2014 @ 3:50 am

  55. @Lisa1. But he was fine by 9.01? It was a bit of a shock to me to see him at first. Sam really did look like he was ready to be laid to rest.

    Comment by San Summer — May 1, 2014 @ 4:27 am

  56. @52 You’re right about that phrase. It was heartening to me–especially since so much effort was made under Gamble to make Castiel “family” and as much of a brother as Sam. Of course, as far as I know, Castiel was Gamble’s creation; it he was, it was in her interest to promote the character and make him as much a part of the series as possible. Carver seems to have a different attitude. I’m guessing he finds Castiel useful as a substitute for our tired boys, and that’s about it.

    Speaking of our tired boys, I don’t know. You could be right. Maybe Sam is supposed to be off his game. As for the bros exhausted appearance, I just thought maybe JP and JA talked the producers into letting them cut down on the makeup and hair sessions. That way, the Winchesters could look the part of being under stress, and JP and JA could get a few extra winks after long days or nights with little ones.

    Comment by JT — May 1, 2014 @ 4:32 am

  57. @53 Warah, you make a great point! I’m sure I wouldn’t have been as hard on “Bloodlines” if it hadn’t been an SN spinoff that ate up one of the few remaining episodes this season. I need a Winchester fix!

    Comment by JT — May 1, 2014 @ 4:36 am

  58. I second the endorsement of the Walking Dead. I wasn’t interested at first glance because it just seemed like a lot of gore but my son recently talked me into watching with him and the first episode I saw about broke me (the grove) so I had go back and watch from the beginning. Highly, highly recommended.

    As for Bloodlines, I agree that they should have never put the name Supernatural on this but built their own stand alone universe instead.There are some canon issues that have SPN fans uneasy. The monster family idea is interesting on its own and this could be good with some overhauling. Seems like a wasted opportunity for a SPN spin of though. I did like some of the actors but the lead character is weak and his story too much like Sam’s. I think David would be the stronger main character. I really wanted to like this better than I did.

    Comment by inky — May 1, 2014 @ 6:01 am

  59. @JT, yeah I also figure that all of it might be intentional. Like it’s a pilot episode so I’m sure the makeup people etc. put a lot of time to make everyone look as pretty as possible so they could have done the same for Sam and Dean but it wouldn’t fit where the characters are.

    I also think that Bloodlines would have worked better as its own universe. Monsters would have the point of view and humans would be the outsiders and a threat. I guess monsters that kill humans could still be sympathetic or have interesting shades of gray but not in the world of Supernatural where families are torn apart by random unpredictable violence and hunters sacrifice their whole lives to stop it. Suicide is considered to be the right thing if one cannot control their monster side. Now it’s too jarring to watch them be like hey we own the police and we kill some people here and there but it’s okay…

    Comment by San Summer — May 1, 2014 @ 6:40 am

  60. There were a lot of canon issues, some of which have already spilled over into SPN and others that will affect SPN if the show tries to accommodate Bloodlines, if it is picked up. The writers of SPN do not know how to establish the parameters within which the show is told (or stay within the parameters that was long established) and it glaringly showed in Bloodlines.

    First off, there is a problem with the monster groups that were chosen.

    Why would vampires be prepared to live under werewolves or any other group of monster?

    Most of the monster groups the picked for Bloodlines are strictly territorial and strictly loners (even though they trashed the werewolfe lore in the Garth episode). Waiths, ghouls, djinn, and shapeshifters are loners that hunt alone. They do not live in groups.

    Then there is the concept of Mafia families. New York was where the Mafia in America began, and even those real Mafia families had their individual, established boroughs in New York to do their business (you know, established boundaries) and then they divided up the rest of the country in order to have room to expand without constant turf wars, which hurt business — and the Mafia were a business.

    What “business” are these monster families doing? How are they wealthy when they’re not running a criminal enterprise or, that I could see, legitimate corporations either?

    How long can they sustain ‘there might be a war between monster families’ before the viewers get bored with being teased. If they go to the mattress, then what — more intrigued and vying for power between the families?

    How long can they sustain the Romeo/Juliet romance story before the viewers get bored. They will either have to go there, or they will have to pass it on to other characters, which will be a repeat.

    Is Ennis going to be a vigilante or a hunter-in-training? Is he going to look for dad, join up, and have a father/son hunter team with dad training Ennis.

    All of these questions puts the whole concept of the show in question. What is this show supposed to be about exactly, if it is taken on as a series? What story do they want to tell?

    Beside, there was zero character development or hints at character depth in this pilot. Dabb just dropped them into a script, with no hint or insight into what kind of children (young adults is questionable).

    I just thought it was really amateurish and ill-conceived with poor choices made for the actors.

    Comment by Sheri — May 1, 2014 @ 6:54 am

  61. @Inky – I can’t believe that was the very first WD episode you saw! Wow! That was a pretty intense episode. Are you all caught up now? It really is a great show, isn’t it? It is a bit bloody but that doesn’t bother me.


    @San – I think Jared has lost some muscle and weight, not all of it, but he’s much thinner than he was in S6. I know he said he broke a rib or something last year and couldn’t work out as much. Plus, he has a kid now and may not want to work out at the same pace. I don’t know if “Sam” is supposed to look stressed though.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 1, 2014 @ 9:17 am

  62. @Lisa1. I’m leaning towards it being intentional. I had a moment of “Is Jared okay??” when I first saw him in 9.01. He was wearing a hospital gown so one could see he still had nice arms etc. but there was a big difference. Hats off to makeup and wardrobe, I think they really made him look exhausted. It would make sense that they would continue on that trajectory since Sam felt like he should have died after the possession and in this spinoff advised Ennis against hunting because once you get in too deep, you never get out. So maybe they intentionally make Sam and Dean look paler etc. whereas before especially Sam was often tanned. Also it could have just been the contrast between two very different casts.

    If one looks at the pilot of the Walking Dead there is a huge difference. That pilot has a cinematic quality.

    Comment by San Summer — May 1, 2014 @ 10:00 am

  63. One other point about the spinoff nobody has mentioned. There is a major inconsistency in the story.

    Shape shifters don’t just change form with the blink of an eye. Shape shifters shed their skin, and it’s a long and painful process. In fact, if you go back to older episodes (like “Nightshifter”), Sam & Dean actually find the skins of shape shifters. ONLY the alpha shifter can change without shedding skin.

    Comment by JJA — May 1, 2014 @ 12:07 pm

  64. @ JJA: Yes, the shifters and also the werewolves, where the full moon means nothing — they just change at will, and the living in a “family” setting. The writers, however, already screwed that up in the Garth episode, and that’s what I mean by SPN already accommodating Bloodlines, where they are making up their own lore.

    I am sure the differences in lore was discussed between Carver, Singer, and Dabbs. SPN’s lore sets up all kinds of problems for the spin-off, as I mentioned before, and I think they will change SPN (have already) lore to accommodate the new show if it gets picked up.

    Comment by Sheri — May 1, 2014 @ 12:51 pm

  65. “Do You Believe in Miracles”

    THE SHOCKING SEASON FINALE — Dean (Jensen Ackles) feels the effects of the First Blade, and Metatron (guest star Curtis Armstrong) makes his move against humanity. Meanwhile, Sam (Jared Padalecki), Dean and Castiel (Misha Collins) face shocking consequences when taking the fight to Metatron (guest star Curtis Armstrong). Thomas J. Wright directed the episode written by Jeremy Carver (#923).

    Comment by San Summer — May 1, 2014 @ 2:19 pm

  66. ! Possible spoiler:

    Apparently Huffman hasn’t been filming since episode 21 so maybe Dean beats her early and that’s why she is not mentioned in the synopsis. It would make the mark and the blade thing more interesting because she had been the big objective yet Dean would still continue on the same path.

    Comment by San Summer — May 1, 2014 @ 2:24 pm

  67. @San – The pilot for TWD is what drew me into the show. It was similar to this movie called “28 Days Later” which I LOVE, so I wondered how I missed the show. I thought the Pilot was incredible, and I have loved every episode that has come after it.

    Again, I highly recommend The Walking Dead to everyone here. It is a really good show!


    I hope the last three episodes (there are 3 left right) are good. I’m about to watch this week’s episode. I’m sure it can’t be as bad as some are saying.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 1, 2014 @ 2:42 pm

  68. Lisa1, it was! I also encourage people to try it out. My cousin was first reluctant to watch it (probably the idea of zombies wasn’t her thing) but she got hooked! My first glimpse of the show was when I was channel surfing and I could immediately tell that what I was watching must be from The Walking Dead. I was luckily that the scene was an incredible one from 1.3 where a character is crying out for Jesus as walkers are trying to get to him. Then he does a complete 180, “I ain’t begged you before. I ain’t gonna start begging now. Don’t you worry about me!” etc. as he is trying to get a saw to cut his hand free.

    3.01 was a great way to start a season, the lighting used on Lori in 3.04 etc. etc. make me wish the people involved on that show could help Supernatural out. Also I would have loved to see more of a character from 4.01 played by Kyle Gallner so it would be great if he made a guest appearance on Supernatural.

    Comment by San Summer — May 1, 2014 @ 3:36 pm

  69. @San Summer- I saw that synopsis! So Metatron now plans to “attack humanity.” I suppose that would draw in the Winchesters alright! So far it looks more like they’re helping Cas with an otherwise exclusively angelic war, and it was hard to justify that being “their” story. If it’s revealed in the next couple of episodes that Metatron is planning on hurting “humanity,” it makes more sense.

    I keep waiting for Dean to go completely over the edge. Even in 23, it sounds like he’ll be struggling, but still hanging together. I’m thinking more and more that at least one “unintended consequence” will be Dean’s switch flipping to evil in time for S10. I can’t imagine the writers keeping him that way for long though- Sam and Cas each went “full dark” for about 1 episode.

    Since it looks like Dean and Abaddon get their money shot next epi, I wonder if he kills her then, or if she evades him and Sam. I’m also wondering if Dean kills Crowley after all, and thus still has the Blade for the rest of the season. Crowley’s been a fun ride, but I think it’s time for him to go- he can only jerk the Winchesters around so many times.

    Comment by Jaytee — May 1, 2014 @ 3:57 pm

  70. Having seen it, I can only say the concept they were going for simply doesn’t fit in the “Supernatural” universe. I’m not sure why they tagged “Supernatural” onto the show. If they wanted to make a show about monster families, then make a show about monster families. Don’t involve the Supernatural universe in that nonsense.

    I didn’t hate this episode. It just wasn’t Supernatural w/the hunter being the bad one, Sam and Dean not dispatching of that werewolf girl, and the canon violations.

    I had no problem w/the acting or anything like that though.

    At the end of the day, you have to care about the characters in the Pilot and want to see them in future storylines. I must say I didn’t care about these characters and what happened to them afterward.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 1, 2014 @ 4:03 pm

  71. @San – I remember that scene from 1.03 too. What do you think about how Merle ended up in that situation? Andy Lincoln is amazing as Rick! I loved the scene in S3 after the Walkers storm the prison when he breaks down! Such a great scene. And I also wanted to see more of Kyle G’s character. I was shocked at his early demise.


    @Jaytee – I definitely think this MOC/Blade story will carry over into next season. I don’t see how it can’t since they haven’t really started it. I can’t seem them keeping Dean “evil” for very long either as that would change the entire show, but Carver seems to hate what the show is anyway so maybe be will do that. Who knows?


    Ummm. . . sorry, but back to this Pilot . . . are we supposed to be rooting for Ennis? What is supposed to happen each week? Ennis kills a monster? The werewolf girl and shifter boy make out? What is the show supposed to be about?

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 1, 2014 @ 4:15 pm

  72. I know there are people out there that probably liked the episode, which I think is fine as everyone has a right to their opinion. I just think that it was a mistake to sell it as a “spn spinoff” because it’s clearly not.
    I feel they are trying to force it down our throats because spn is ending and they (the cw) wants to keep the fandom.
    I didn’t like it, if other people is going to watch it, that’s fine, I honestly thought it was poorly written and the plot is unimaginative.

    Comment by Troya06 — May 1, 2014 @ 4:47 pm

  73. @69 Jaytee. Unfortunately, the synopses for 9.21 and 9.22 bug me.

    “Castiel captures one of Metatron’s angels and asks Sam and Dean for help with the interrogation. Dean eagerly accepts, which doesn’t go unnoticed by Sam. — — Also, Castiel sets a meeting with Gadreel.”

    “After a massive attack on the angels, Castiel calls Sam and Dean for help. As they leave, Dean’s eagerness to bring the First Blade doesn’t go unnoticed by Sam who is worried about the cost to his brother whenever he uses the Blade. Meanwhile, Castiel — –.“

    They make it seem like Castiel brings the boys in on the story to help out instead of the other way around. But maybe Dean sort of takes over because of the blade situation. And Sam… worries? I read a comment that Sam has been mute Sam and I had to kind of laugh because it’s true. Maybe he’ll have something to do when Dean reacts to the blade since apparently how Sam was as a vessel is no big deal. Do something with the grace (myth arc) or have him talk to Gadreel (point of view).

    — —

    @Lisa1. Re: Merle. That was rough! At least the door was locked but the way he was left there seemingly to die… One of the worst fates imaginable. Though some of it was his fault as he needed to be handcuffed because he had been acting erratically and would have gotten the others killed.

    I thought 3.01 was fantastic also because it did the time jump so well. (Supernatural season 8 *coughcough*) I really didn’t care much for Lori as a character but they were able to turn her around there.

    One of the most maddening part of the show is all the characters who are there just momentarily! :D Andrew is great, I didn’t vote for the People’s Choice Awards but objectively the quality of the material makes it hard to say that Supernatural should win without a question. By the way, have you noticed any change in how you view Bela after seeing the actress on The Walking Dead?

    Also what I love about the show is their use of practical effects. I wish Supernatural would do more of that instead of CGI blood.

    Comment by San Summer — May 1, 2014 @ 5:08 pm

  74. @65 San Summer, thanks. Why is another actor being cast in the role of Metatron? Any word on that? Anyway, it seems odd that the character should be making a move against humanity. I thought his grudge was against angels. Didn’t someone say neither the brothers nor Castiel die in this episode? So what might the “shocking consequences” be? Of course, since Kripke left, what’s “shocking” to the show runners and writers is pretty far from shocking to me.

    Comment by JT — May 1, 2014 @ 5:59 pm

  75. Lisa1, I am all caught up on TWD. And anxiously awaiting the next season. I was lucky enough to catch the season 4 marathon and then bought a season 1-3 bundle at a really good price on Amazon and devoured them. I hardly recognized season one Carole as the same character that she has turned into. Agree that Andrew Lincoln is amazing. I didn’t like Bela so much on Supernatural but Lauren is great as Maggie. I love her and Glenn. The show breaks your heart every other episode but I love it.

    Comment by inky — May 1, 2014 @ 6:27 pm

  76. @San – When I first saw Laura on the show, I thought, “Oh. There’s Bela.” Now, she’s just “Maggie” to me. I don’t even see Bela anymore. Haha!

    Lori won Entertainment Weekly’s (or some other magazine) poll of being TV’s most HATED character. I HATED, LOATHED, and DESPISED Lori right until the very end! In the S2 finale when Rick is seeking comfort from his wife about the whole Shane situation (which she started), and she brushes his hand off her shoulder and gives him the dirtiest look . . . . ARGH . . . I wanted to kick her in the face! She wasn’t well-liked on or offline.

    Wasn’t that finale great though? I still have that recorded. I’m upset b/c I had the Talking Dead w/Andrew recorded too, but I decided to record some whack episode of Supernatural . . . it was that Metafiction crap episode so I don’t have the interview anymore!

    Anyway . . . I’m always happy to find another TWD fan. That is my new favorite show on tv. I love that show!

    Back to Supernatural . . . . :-)

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 1, 2014 @ 6:30 pm

  77. Oops . . . that should be “Lauren.”

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 1, 2014 @ 6:41 pm

  78. @JT. Maybe the actor who played Gabriel will assume the identity of Metatron? I think it’s been reported that he was on set for the finale.

    @Lisa1. I haven’t caught up yet on The Walking Dead, I think I want to save up the rest of the episodes for the time when Supernatural is on a break. :D Lori to me was one of those cases where it’s like why did they wait till this to make her likable! I didn’t immediately remember where I knew Maggie’s actress because it had been awhile since I had last seen season 3. Also her look on that show was very different from Bela who was portrayed as pretty glamorous.

    Comment by San Summer — May 1, 2014 @ 7:06 pm

  79. @78 Gabriel, San Summer? The Trickster? I do like the sound of that, and it does make sense since what seemed to be Gabriel was apparently working with Metatron. But I’d like it to really be Gabriel/Trickster–not some illusion. Honestly, this series has become such a gummed up muddled mess, it’s hard to even take a guess at what’s going on.

    Comment by JT — May 1, 2014 @ 7:15 pm

  80. @JT. Yeah, the trickster was a great character. I thought his appearance in Meta Fiction was off, I guess it was intentional but I’d still like the “real” one back.

    Comment by San Summer — May 1, 2014 @ 7:31 pm

  81. I hated when the Trickster was retconned into Gabriel. He worked better as the Trickster, IMO.


    @San – You’ll have to tell me what you think of TWD once you’re all caught up. Not to keep repeating myself, but I think you’ll enjoy the entire run so far :-)

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 2, 2014 @ 4:59 am

  82. @Lisa1. I thought so too! He was actually one of the scarier creatures out there because it seemed like the best the brothers could hope for was to get as far away from him as possible and they’d just have to let the trickster continue to do his killings.

    Comment by San Summer — May 2, 2014 @ 7:22 am

  83. @80 San Summer and @81 Lisa 1, I vote for the original Trickster, too! To turn him into the Angel Gabriel was absurd–and disrespectful. Unlike most of the other angels on SN, Gabriel is the revered angel of the New Testament who told the Blessed Mother she was to be the mother of Christ. I don’t mind when the writers mess with lore, but they shouldn’t be mocking people’s religious beliefs. The Trickster is a great character and one of my SN favorites, but he’s also a low-life–hardly the right choice for the Angel Gabriel.

    You know, it’s really sad when TWD promotes a more enthusiastic discussion on this board than SN. It shows how much damage Carver and his writers have done to a once fabulous series.

    Comment by JT — May 2, 2014 @ 7:30 am

  84. I should have said, “Unlike most of the other angels on SN, Gabriel isn’t the product of an SN writer’s imagination. He’s the revered angel….” Sorry! These writers get me so angry, I can’t think straight!

    Comment by JT — May 2, 2014 @ 7:34 am

  85. @JT. Yeah, I found it hard to suspend belief and just go along with the idea that getting eaten alive, dropped into a wormhole or death by a chainsaw was just something a fun-loving angel does to people who are “dicks”.

    Comment by San Summer — May 2, 2014 @ 7:59 am

  86. Well it was worse than I was expecting, it seemed like Dean and Sam had acted their scenes against a blue screen and then were superimposed into the episode – they were just so so out of place. I feel cheated of an episode and am having to treat it as another hiatus. I was fine with the Trickster outing as Gabriel, thought it rather a cool idea, don’t think there is any point at all in relating religious belief to Supernatural, either Christian or any other, remember the Hammer of the Gods – many people have other gods and beliefs.
    The last three episodes have so many other people in them that I seriously hope we are not going to have very little Sam and Dean. I feel desperate (pathetic I know) for some brotherly moments, I replayed several times the little scene with Jodie where they tease her – has been so long since that was the way they were a lot of the time with each other.
    I would have liked the MOC to have been played out this season as presumably, as seems most likely, it is carried over until next season, the brothers will still not be on the same page as each other. It will take some very exciting and innovative episodes to get me to be okay with that scenario.

    Comment by Icarus — May 2, 2014 @ 8:53 am

  87. @Icarus. The mark of Cain is a great idea for a myth arc because it would be about the two brothers. What poses somewhat of a problem is that it’s clearly rooted in conflict. Why not “sacrifice” season 9 to that and tell the story properly in that timeframe? Why does it have to stretch till season 10 even though it’s not like there is just too much juice in the story considering there has been hardly any movement? One brother hasn’t even been involved in it. They had about 12 episodes to do the story justice (some shows have entire seasons that last less).

    Comment by San Summer — May 2, 2014 @ 9:31 am

  88. @85 True, San Summer. Then we have all the nasty treatment of the Winchesters, as well as the porno and scantily clad girls–fine for the Trickster or even an imaginary angel, but for the biblical Angel Gabriel? Not.

    I think one of the problems with SN is that the writers have little, if any, respect for religious beliefs, legend, and lore. Rather than draw upon centuries and even eons of well-established accounts of supernatural entities and events, these writers elect to invent their own. An egotistical and extremely stupid move, with predictably silly, vapid results. The whole reason why such beliefs, legends, and lore have survived for so long is because these accounts and stories are rich in universal appeal.

    Kripke was insistently true to traditional beliefs, legend, and lore in the first season, but–perhaps under Gamble’s influence–he abandoned that commitment, so we saw totally ridiculous stories like that of Anna, dropping her grace and falling 10,000 miles to plop in some woman’s womb.
    Since then (and, possibly, before) SN has paraded out one legendary figure after another, usually turning them into ludicrous distortions of the originals.
    It’s one thing to build on lore while staying faithful to the original (as with Gamble’s beautiful “Houses of the Holy” or the masterfully drawn original Trickster), but quite another to attempt to overthrow decades–centuries– of oral and written tradition. The ignorant iconoclasts of SN have no respect for the countless tellers of tales who’ve gone before them, which is why so many scripts are simply trash.

    I’ll just add that one of the saddest parts of this is the way SN misses so many great opportunities because of these self-important iconoclasts. Take fallen angels, for example. Instead of drawing upon Milton and other sources, SN (I think under Edlund) decided to make all demons damned humans. Thus, instead of giving us truly dangerous, powerful, terrifying, and majestical entities (like Lucifer should have been), we’re left with weak, puny PEOPLE, supposedly scary because they can turn their eyes black and throw Winchesters against walls.

    It all comes down to anthropocentric conceit. SN’s writers have no belief in the supernatural and can’t bring themselves to pretend they do. So they churn out shallow comic book “horror” stories. For kids.

    Comment by JT — May 2, 2014 @ 9:40 am

  89. Wow JT that is some strong feeling against the SN Universe. Not sure how you could be enjoying the series if that is how you see it, I think the idea that demons were originally all human is a good one, there is no reason why they can’t have evolved through eons in hell to be scary, and of course they can then be shown in human form, less expensive CGI, make up etc which I guess always needs to be taken into account on a “low budget” series. I don’t see them as overthrowing centuries of stories and tradition at all, they are making up their own universe and borrowing parts of stories, legends as they do it. I have absolutely no problem with them bastardising any story, religion etc to tell a good story and create a fantasy world, what I have a problem with is when they do that and then change it all i.e. canon is no longer canon.

    Comment by Icarus — May 2, 2014 @ 9:56 am

  90. @86 Icarus, SN’s producers took a lot of heat for “Hammer of the Gods,” as well they should have. People who revere the sacred goddess Kali were justifiably upset. What right did some yahoo hack have to assail–even mock–the religious beliefs of these people? Hollywood writers/producers gives great lip service to tolerance, but, in fact, they tend to tolerate no beliefs that don’t mirror their own.

    Comment by JT — May 2, 2014 @ 9:56 am

  91. ps Icarus, I watch SN for Sam (JP) and Dean (JA) period. As for the treatment of demons and lore, I guess we’ll just have agree to disagree.

    Comment by JT — May 2, 2014 @ 10:12 am

  92. terials by Philip Pullman (very anti religion). So guess we are just on a different page – no problem.@ 90. Well the Hammer of the Gods was just not a very good episode in my opinion but I did not have an issue with the content, I guess maybe because I am not religious and am more into fantasy than horror. I read a lot of fantasy and lots of it has religious connotations, i.e. His Dark Ma

    Comment by Icarus — May 2, 2014 @ 10:23 am

  93. oops my copying and pasting did not work very well! Think you can work it out tho – we are both saying agree to disagree.

    Comment by Icarus — May 2, 2014 @ 10:25 am

  94. @JT. I would love it if they drew more inspiration from established works. Like Dante’s Inferno! I firmly believe that the second trial should have been a two-part episode. I mean not only would Sam have to go to _Hell_ but first he’d have to access Purgatory which Dean made out to be one of the worst places. It took him four months to get out of Hell and a year to get out of Purgatory but Sam strolls through both within 24 hours? That didn’t make anyone look good.

    What the lore on fallen angels even is? Apparently Cas fell, too, but he is fine.

    “It all comes down to anthropocentric conceit. SN’s writers have no belief in the supernatural and can’t bring themselves to pretend they do.”

    I do think they should play more with the idea “What if there is more out there?” I mean it seems almost silly to say that since the show is called Supernatural but the show treats monsters, demons, ghosts etc. as such everyday things that it makes them less scary. I’d love it if I’d get the urge to look over my shoulder because the show managed to create such an atmosphere.

    Comment by San Summer — May 2, 2014 @ 10:31 am

  95. @94 San Summer, “the show treats monsters, demons, ghosts etc. as such everyday things that it makes them less scary. I’d love it if I’d get the urge to look over my shoulder because the show managed to create such an atmosphere.” EXACTLY! And creating that atmosphere certainly doesn’t cost much. Look what SN did in SO many first season episodes, including “The Benders,” SWTWC, “Provenance,” “Devil’s Trap,” and “Scarecrow.” (I think the final scene of “Scarecrow” was one of the creepiest I’ve ever seen on TV–thanks to Kim Manners’ brilliant direction and excellent acting.)

    But since S1, SN has gradually shifted over from supernatural horror to camp. Any fool can write campy scripts.

    Comment by JT — May 2, 2014 @ 12:06 pm

  96. ps I didn’t mean Kim acted (though he probably could have!) I was speaking of the actress who played Meg. She was great!

    Comment by JT — May 2, 2014 @ 12:07 pm

  97. @JT. That ending with Meg was such a great moment! Great music, too. I second that it’s not about money. It’s little things, really. My example would be from Playthings. There is a shot of looking inside a room where Sam sits in the dark, his back to the camera. Then Dean steps inside and closes the door while taking the room key. There is something effective about the whole thing. Maybe because it is shot kind of low, how even though Sam is a familiar character there is something unsettling about seeing him like that and the way Dean closes the door kind of gives it a forbidden, even claustrophobic feeling. I love the location they picked.

    Comment by San Summer — May 2, 2014 @ 1:12 pm

  98. I thought Hammer of the Gods was a real missed opportunity. Seemed awesome on paper, but problematic in execution (Show does seem to run into that issue every now and then).

    I heard before that Kripke’s original idea for SPN was to have a “horror movie every week” feel, but the insane chemistry between the J’s drove the focus more towards characterization and relationships (slasher horror movies aren’t known for those traits). As well, once the mythos got bigger and bigger in later seasons, the “slasher flick MOTW” got sent further to the wayside. I’ve heard that the CW, being a “teen network,” always pushed for more emo and drama, and Kripke pushed back. To Gamble’s and especially Carver’s detriment, they seem to be caving to the network and focusing too much on the brothers’ emotional lives and dramas, rather than the fascinating world they live in.

    I understand moving out of the S1 format- I doubt Show could have sustained “horror movie every week” for a decade, and the mythos has given it lasting potential- but JT is right that they could still inject a bit more horror into the show if they wanted.

    My own take is I could be happier with more world-building and exploring, and less DRAMZ.

    Comment by Jaytee — May 2, 2014 @ 2:04 pm

  99. PS. Happy birthday, Sam! :D

    Comment by San Summer — May 2, 2014 @ 3:11 pm

  100. @97, excellent episode, San Summer. I’ll have to look for that scene. You give a superb example of how a setting–in this case, a wonderfully spooky inn–can become a scary “character” in itself.

    @98 Jaytee, during S1, Kripke said he’d like to see SN as figuring in university courses. Such a thing would have been possible because of the way the writers retained the essence of famous urban and other legends, while doing an expert job of setting them in a modern context. But over the years since, myths, legends, and lore have been so distorted and perverted, they’re barely recognizable. I believe that partly accounts for the way the quality of the series has drastically diminished. The plotting is thin and, often, ludicrous; the dialogue is overwritten, usually consisting of high sounding but empty rhetoric (endlessly recycled); the sets are generic and dull; and the atmosphere–so necessary to evoke horror–is all but nonexistent.

    In S1, the atmosphere was marvelous because Kripke did so much location and night shooting; he also took full advantage of Vancouver’s nasty weather. I don’t know how much money was involved, but the cast and crew probably objected to all the location shooting, especially in the dark and cold. A shame, though. In the American version of “The Ring,” virtually nothing scary happens until near the end of the film. Yet, rain, fog, dim light, and isolated locales help build suspense and create an unsettling, increasingly frightening atmosphere. Kripke and Manners used much the same technique in S1–and did it beautifully.

    You’re certainly right in pointing out that all the emphasis on the brothers’ emotional lives has seriously detracted from what should be the major concern of the writers: developing strong, suspenseful, credible stories about “the fascinating world in which the brothers live.” Of course, it’s a whole lot easier to write melodrama and “emo” than it is to write excellent tales of horror and the supernatural. (Speaking of which, there are thousands of great old horror stories out there, many of which have inspired modern novelists, short story and film writers. Why don’t SN’s writers use some of those stories as bases for their plots? They’ve drawn pretty freely on “The Twilight Zone.”)

    Anyway, I don’t think SN will ever change from its present, sorry state–not unless the comic book/cartoon writers are replaced by serious ones.

    Comment by JT — May 2, 2014 @ 3:45 pm

  101. @99, oh, thanks, San Summer! I’d like to think the brothers, having set their differences aside, are sharing a Miller time over a big birthday cake.

    Comment by JT — May 2, 2014 @ 3:54 pm

  102. @JT. Well said! I’m also sick of the mundane settings. That’s why I was looking forward to seeing the brothers in the Impala bathed in the lights of a big city. Now it’s just plain everyday spots – a shop, a hospital parking lot — shot during the day.

    Re: Sam’s birthday. In Holy Terror, I found this part “No more birthdays, dust to dust,” touching in Dean’s speech. Just sort of this thought that every new birthday with Sam is something Dean cherishes because it means he had had another year with his brother.

    Comment by San Summer — May 2, 2014 @ 5:05 pm

  103. SPN spin-offs that might have worked (despite some fan resistance):

    A Boy and his Golem
    Sheriff Jody doing anything
    Cas (I hate the character, but others love him)
    Oz land
    Samuel Colt and Hunters of the Old West
    Elliot P. Neilt and 40s Hunters
    The last two – oh god, YES!

    What we got, the Originals Light – not so much.

    Comment by RS — May 2, 2014 @ 7:17 pm

  104. I’d also love a prequel with Weechester stories. But I know I have to rely on fanfic for that.

    Comment by RS — May 2, 2014 @ 7:33 pm

  105. @102, San Summer, I so agree with you about the settings. I like the Men of Letters “bunker”; it has a certain elegance about it, and it’s nice that the brothers have something of a home of their own. I do miss those crappy motel rooms though; they became such a signature part of the series. And the other settings-including the old, deserted buildings– all had distinctness and character. Occasionally, the show still uses great settings, though–like the church in the finale of S8– so I guess there’s hope. (The atmosphere in that episode was also very good, I thought.)

    That’s a sad quotation. I guess we’re not going to have to worry about one of the brothers dying this season, and based on the spoiler you quoted @65, it doesn’t sound like Dean’s MOC is going to figure very importantly. (As he’s been doing for weeks, he’s still just feeling the affects!) So what “shocking consequences” do the brothers and Castiel face “when taking the fight to Metatron”?

    Will they see scores of dead humans? Not exactly a cliffhanger. Maybe he’ll imprison them all in heaven. I doubt that would keep viewers on the edge of their seats all summer, either. Besides Dabb said Sam and Dean would be experiencing something they never have before. They’ve been to heaven–or at least to part of it. Maybe Metatron will entrap them in walls with all those souls shut out of heaven. (Carver wrote that awful episode about people hiding in walls.) Also a boring finale–at least to me.

    I haven’t a clue. What could the brothers experience they’ve never experienced before? Oh gosh. I hope he doesn’t turn them into angels or something silly like that!

    Comment by JT — May 2, 2014 @ 7:34 pm

  106. @RS. I think something about John Winchester would be interesting, maybe a miniseries!

    @JT. I also loved the skeevy motels. Like the one in 5.01, there is a shot of Sam by stairs after “Bobby” told him to get lost and it gives an impression that they are at a place where the rooms are rented by people who are looking to hook up or shoot up.

    This season I liked all the greenery in episode First Born but unfortunately the impact of the location was diminished because it resembled greatly the area of Sonny’s farm a few episodes before that (Bad Boys).

    “Maybe Metatron will entrap them in walls with all those souls shut out of heaven.”

    I think they’ll have to address the veil thing. Dean is with Tessa in episode 22 Stairway to Heaven so maybe it contributes to that hanging plotline.

    Comment by San Summer — May 2, 2014 @ 8:12 pm

  107. This episode suckked….

    Comment by sushant — May 2, 2014 @ 11:36 pm

  108. @RS “Oz Land” could be perfect…. :-)
    but now what can v do that they chose “Bloodlines” :-( :-p

    Comment by Warah — May 3, 2014 @ 12:50 am

  109. Hey I’m not sure if its true, I just read it on a website in which the following article was givesn..
    Check out..
    In the E!Online TV Scoop report, supervising producer Andrew Dabb teased about the major cliffhanger of the “Supernatural” Season 9 finale episode. “We leave our guys in a situation they’ve never faced before, which after nine seasons, it kind of narrows it down a little bit. I think once they see the last frame of the last episode, I think people are going to be incredibly excited for Season 10,” Andrew Dabb shared.

    The Examiner report noted that Sam and Dean being in a new situation that will test them in the Season 9 finale will be something exciting that fans would want to watch and find out what will happen next. However, they must patiently wait for Season 10 since the spoiler teases that the final moment of the episode will be a preparation for the brand new season.

    According to the MStars News report, executive producer Jeremy Carver gave another tease on the upcoming “Supernatural” Season 9 finale episode. “All bets are off when Sam, Dean and Castiel take the fight to Metatron,” Jeremy Carver declared.

    The finale episode will additionally feature a couple of “uneasy alliances” and “brutal choices” that will all close with shocking consequences. It is speculated that one of those uneasy alliances in the season finale could be the King of Hell Crowley (Mark Sheppard), the demon that Sam and Dean have been reluctantly working with in the past.

    Further noted is the shocking consequences that always happen in the “Supernatural” finales. It is still unknown if the Season 9 finale can top the Season 8 ending where Heaven was closed and thousands of angels fell down on Earth.

    Comment by Warah — May 3, 2014 @ 12:57 am

  110. Phew… I was afraid people were going to be like… “OMG!!! Awesome!”, but I feel the same as all of you. That…. Sucked… It could be its own show (or try), but do not put the Supernatural name on it.

    Comment by Roboalf — May 3, 2014 @ 2:54 am

  111. @106 San Summer, you REALLY know this show! I’ve got to go back and look more closely at that 5.1. I agree about the setting of “First Born.” After Dean kills Cain, which I guess he’s almost required to do, the First Murderer should sign over the farm to the Winchesters–the least he can do for all the misery he’ll put our poor guys through. (Besides, Cain is the boys’ ancestor. Actually, he and Abel are the ancestors of all of us, so we should get the farm–and bees.)

    Your mention of the Reaper makes me wonder if Metatron might send Sam to heaven, entrapping him there, while leaving Dean on earth. Metatron might want to use Dean for his own purposes–like wiping out humanity. Without Sam to help him keep the MOC/blade under control, Dean would be in very serious trouble.

    @109 Warah, I guess one of those uneasy alliances could be Crowley, but I wonder if he might take Abaddon up on her offer and kill or try to kill Sam and/or Dean. The angels falling meant nothing to me–no cliffhanger there because I don’t care about the angels. I’m REALLY puzzled about what that “new situation” could be that Sam and Dean “have never faced before.”

    I guess they’ve never faced one being trapped in heaven, while the other remains on earth. If the separation lasts a year (which is pretty typical), Sam could find that MOC Dean has done some pretty horrific damage while under the influence of Metatron or Crowley. Dean might even have raised some Knights of Hell to help him bring chaos and darkness upon the planet. In fact, since Metatron has nasty plans for humanity and Crowley wants to rule earth, as well as hell, maybe one of those “uneasy alliances” is between the self-proclaimed King of Heaven and the (former) King of Hell.

    Comment by JT — May 3, 2014 @ 4:56 am

  112. @110 Roboalf, just saw your post. I shared your fears! But, thankfully, no worries there. I guess some SN writers and CW producers assume SN fans are so mindless, we’ll delight over any drivel they dish out. NOT so.

    Comment by JT — May 3, 2014 @ 5:18 am

  113. @JT. Re: “Your mention of the Reaper makes me wonder if Metatron might send Sam to heaven, entrapping him there, while leaving Dean on earth. Metatron might want to use Dean for his own purposes–like wiping out humanity. Without Sam to help him keep the MOC/blade under control, Dean would be in very serious trouble.”

    I like your theory that Metatron would want Dean to help bring chaos! So far he hasn’t shown much interest in the brothers. And it would be nice if something big happened to Sam but I have a feeling he is gonna be more about worrying what the blade does to Dean.

    Re: “I guess one of those uneasy alliances could be Crowley, but I wonder if he might take Abaddon up on her offer and kill or try to kill Sam and/or Dean.”

    Do you reckon that the blood will figure into this somehow?

    Comment by San Summer — May 3, 2014 @ 7:05 am

  114. @113, the blood SHOULD figure in somehow, San Summer. Of course, these writers do tend to drop plot lines. All I can think of is that because of his addiction to human blood, Crowley’s attitude towards his son might have changed so radically that–to save Gavin–he’ll be willing to agree to Abaddon’s conditions. But I don’t know. I don’t trust Crowley–at all. The Winchesters have gotten the better of him now and then, but for the most part, nobody outsmarts him. After all, they’re them, but he’s….Crowley!

    Comment by JT — May 3, 2014 @ 8:04 am

  115. @JT: “All I can think of is that because of his addiction to human blood, Crowley’s attitude towards his son might have changed so radically”

    I hadn’t thought of that! And you are right about Crowley outsmarting the boys. He worked hard trying to get on Sam’s good side for a reason and had Dean calling his cell etc. I think he’ll make it to season 10. His role seems to be quite big on this show since he was in the promotions for season 9 like he had his own picture alongside Sam, Dean and Cas etc. Episode 21 is named King of the Damned so who is it gonna be since Queen Abaddon is out in that case?

    Comment by San Summer — May 3, 2014 @ 8:42 am

  116. I hope he does make to S10, San Summer. I think Crowley is great! And I love his interactions with Sam and Dean.

    Comment by JT — May 3, 2014 @ 11:11 am

  117. I have a lot to say about this episode. I’ve read some reactions to the episode on tumblr, but I haven’t read the comments here yet, so I’d have a little space to see what I thought before being influenced by the crowd-think.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — May 3, 2014 @ 12:54 pm

  118. The most positive assessment I can make is as a sci fi genre fan. At least the vampires didn’t twinkle.
    I thought it had a lot of engaging possibilities as urban fantasy In that way it is a fresh take on a universe we know through Sam and Dean’s wide-ranging nomadic treks and doesn’t try to duplicate the original. The idea of repurposed speakeasy was a great one. That’s really where I hope they go with the spin-off…into the noir and fey of good urban fantasy. The kind of thing that shows the magic glimmering in the shadows of the urban landscape, gritty and gleaming, all long teeth and glowing eyes.
    But there are some serious issues with the spinoff as a genre show. Most genre shows are directly based on epic sagas. Genre fans usually expect a strong heroic protagonist, bright lines of good and evil, and some kind of quest. Pretty much all of those expectations were violated. There were multiple main characters with slapdash backstories sloshing all over the screen or popping up with SQUIRREL!-like distracting abilities. All of the characters were morally grey if not inhuman, acting out of self-interest or revenge and with no obvious redeeming qualities. And of course no heroic journey.
    Tribes was the original title, and I think a better one. Instead they went with “Bloodlines”, because it fit in with the idea of these supernatural “families”. Maybe all the lore on vampire clans and werewolf packs was too much to resist. But they’re ignoring an important theme of supernatural – family doesn’t end with blood.
    I think they missed an opportunity here, with the idea of tribes bound together by desperation and alienation as much as by blood. Lonely survivors of hunter massacres, for example, coelesing at the crossroads of the west, not unlike the men and women who fled the south after reconstruction and gave Chicago the music and flair it has today. This would have allowed the tension between trust and treachery within the families in a much more natural way, along with competing loyalties between human siblings that were then bitten into different clans. So there would be struggles both within and between ‘tribes’.
    Instead, they went with the idea of “Bloodlines” and, well…. shows about eugenics and racial purity get really creepy really goddamn quickly. Yeah. Just not a happy place to go.
    It also didn’t make sense to abandon canon for so many SPN monsters all at once and to no real purpose. That kind of blatent inconsistency is going to make people, especially dedicated spn fans, immediately disengage. Especially since the writers didn’t have to do it. They could have had the werewolves have a potion to cause their change, the vampires dress to hide from the sun, and the shapeshifters could have been fey with the ability to do glamorie.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — May 3, 2014 @ 12:55 pm

  119. Bloodlines wasn’t a serious SPN episode. I think we can all agree on that. Best I can say is that it garnered a great and resounding “MEH” from most of tumblr, with a loud chorus of “Eh, I kinda liked it”. But as a spinoff, it didn’t have to be that. The point wasn’t to interest us in Sam and Dean, we know Sam and Dean. The point was to interest us in the new characters.
    What I was hoping for was an original vision by Andrew Dabb, who is a wonderful writer, set in the SPN universe.
    Obviously, that is not what I got.
    Bloodlines was a SPN AU of Supernatural where:
    Ennis = Sam
    David = Dean
    Violet = Cas
    Julian = Crowley
    David’s sister = Abbadon

    The parallels here were incredibly stark and striking, with not just the backstory given to the characters and dressing them like their counterparts (violet in a white button-down and tan trenchcoat), but actual lines lifted from supernatural in past season literally recreating past scenes in supernatural. I think a lot of people have dismissed this as a lack of originality or a blind commercial instinct to regurgitate predigested plot lines for a hungry audience. But when I think about it as I would a fanfiction AU, I find myself seriously intrigued by the questions it poses.
    (I should say that I think a lot of interesting things happen in fanfiction, because writers allow themselves to wander off the well-trodden paths of commercial fiction and into the wild and woolly jungle of pure imagination. If I were to assess this purely as a fanfiction AU … I’ve seen better. Western AUs written by people intimately familiar with historical detail, end!verse post-apocalypic AUs that draw on the post-nuclear sci fi of my youth …theres a lot out there that’s a lot wilder than just tweaking the race and sex and messing with monster canon.) But I also have to assess where it’s coming from – namely that it’s clearly been informed by people intimately familiar with the show, slipping loose for a moment from the shackles of expectation and just letting themself ask “What if?”….
    What do I mean? Well, it seems to me that one long-standing discussion is whether Dean was responsible for Sam becoming a hunter?
    Here we have an answer. Even without Dean to draw him into the search for his father, Sam/Ennis is drawn into hunting when he encounters the supernatural and wants revenge. This is consistent, too, with Henry Winchester being drawn to the men of letters, except that with Henry, we judge him as being middle class, rather than working class like Sam/Ennis. But while he is drawn into it for revenge, it isn’t clear from the spinoff whether Ennis will go on to be chums with the monsters a la David/Dean or start trying to kill them.
    So maybe the writers concluded that without the brotherhood, Sam would have been drawn into hunting, but not become a full-time hunter.
    There are literally thousands of posts by Destiel fans that say that if Dean and Cas were hetero, they would have beena couple long ago. So the writers tried it on for size. They tried to transpose Dean and Cas in season six, even gave them the exact same dialog and… boom! there’s the kiss. The very first episode the two characters are in.
    If they wanted to see if people would see the romance… well, people were shipping ‘vivid’ before the episode ended, so I guess that part worked. If they wanted to see what would happen if they made the ‘subtext’ into ‘text’ – well, that worked too.
    The funny thing is that it highlighted exactly why people love destiel so much as a slow burn romance and why it’s infinitely more romantic that the typical ‘romance’ storylines you see on tv today. There’s no build up, no obstacles, no need for them to heal each other, no … romance.
    I wonder if non-Destiel fans have felt challenged to reexamine their assumptions about Dean and Cas. As in ‘what’s romance and what’s bromance?’ I know some Destiel fans have felt ironically confirmed in their feeling that the show was queerbaiting with the subtext between them. I know some feel hurt or bitter because of this.
    Personally, I’m giving them a pass, because I think writers have to be able to explore. I don’t feel like they were making a point, just seeing what would happen. I think on balance that’s something that should be encouraged. Because I think it makes us all doubt our assumptions. For example, it made me realize that if Dean and Cas had been treated the way that hetero couples were, their story would suck, because it would never have been allowed to grow and develop organically with the characters, with a real slow burn and many unexpected moments of connection. So maybe there’s a silver lining to them not having been made canon? (I’m not saying there’s an upside to queerbaiting and homophobia, exactly. Just that bad things can have unexpectedly good effects.)
    I’m also giving them a pass on the use of ‘bitch’, partly because of the actress. See, when she says “I’m just a bitch.” and you can hear it sticking in her throat, you get the point the word is degrading. You get the big neon sign that points the way to mistreatment and using language to dehumanize.
    I think they were trying this out too. Seeing whether matching the word “bitch” to how someone was treated would give it power or take it. Well, making a living example worked. People noticed. Some folks were kind of annoyed at the pretty negative initial introductions of the female characters – but people, characters have arcs! They have to start somewhere, and you can do a lot with a power hungry head of a clasn (cersei) or a down-trodden young woman coming into her own (uh, Carrie?). It’s kind of interesting to me that you really can’t find a counterpart to violet in media (atleast none come to mind). Despite the fact that I’ve known several second-generation pakistani and indian women whose parents attempted to or successfully did arrange their marriages, in one case taking her out of college and packing her off to pakistan to make sure she would marry someone they chose, unlike her older sister. I have a coworker who went to visit his sister’s in-laws in India and found out about a 30 year-old cousin had emigrated to the United States with his 13 year-old bride and just told the school that she was his ward. Not to mention orthodox jewish, mormon, and asian friends whose parents used matchmakers and would never have allowed their children to marry outside their faith/race. Those are just people I know from high school and college. This stuff is still around, but you don’t see it much on tv. So that’s kind of refreshing. I hope they show that you need a plan and the ability to support yourself to get away from your parents successfully when they’re controlling and abusive.
    Of course, you can’t do a lot with the female they fridged…unless it turns out a vampire turned her…which would be pretty interesting.
    Plus they tried some new monsters on for size to fit the plot. That’s perfectly fine in an AU, but it didn’t really add anything to this universe.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — May 3, 2014 @ 12:56 pm

  120. Now, this is going to be kind of negative, so if you don’t like negativity look away now.
    It’s also easy to see this episode as grotesque fruit of an unholy union between Supernatural and _that_ CW show with the rich, white, petty assholes in tight clothes that spend all their time trying to screw each other or screw each other over because they have no real problems. Which show that is? Gossip Girl, the vampire diaries, the carrie diaries, reign, the originals….take your damn pick.
    In this, I see the hand of the network and honestly, I seriously think that they misjudged the audience. People who are going to watch an SPN spinoff, i.e. SPN fans are drawn from the same audiences that loved CW shows like Dark Angel (a gothic-edged genre show) and Gilmore Girls (a heartfelt drama with strong family ties and realistic characters). The characters were wildly unrealistic compared to the average urban American and their was no warmth in the ties binding them together.
    Honestly, the network is oversaturated with these hyper-dramatic escapist Falcon Crest/Dallas retread shows. Unlike others, I don’t mind the recycled actors, since I think it’s great that CW sticks with young actors long enough to give them time to develop. (I’d remind some of you who were grousing about ‘CW cuties’ that there was a time you could say the same about Jared and Jensen, and we all know how they turned out. I will admit that before I saw the episode I did wish that for the rare occurance of an African-American lead character that they could have actually hired an American instead of an Australian. But I thought Lucien was good, small but fierce, believable in his desire for revenge. I liked the actress who played Violet as well.
    The biggest problem is that the spinoff doesn’t really have any legs. They cut the show off at the knees by not leaving anything left to resolve. Where’s the hero’s journey? Ennis got his revenge and was established as a merciless killer, who despite having a hero cop as a dad, still turned vigilante and took the law into his own hands. Having shown how little he valued his dad’s legacy, a dad who apparently lied to him and abandoned him instead of just dying in the line of duty, as he previously believed, we’re supposed to believe he’s going to drop everything to go trying to find him. It would really be refreshing if he was like “either someone is messing with me or my dad’s a dick, either way, I’m staying in Chicago.” Also, what’s with all the daddy issues. It’s been done to death guys. At the very least it would have been nice if he had some kind of relationship with his mom. There’s just really no good road to put Ennis on after you started him off like that.
    Then there’s David/Dean. I forgot to mention that another one of the AU things the writers were playing with was…”What would Dean have been like without Sam?” The answer seems to be that he would have taken off and gone to college himself. But if his character arc is to get away from his family… David has his girl and all they have to do is run away together.
    Plus, they didn’t give us anyone to root for, since apparently hunters are monsters and monsters are good.
    Fundamentally, they didn’t give us an original vision – instead they hacked off pieces of back story and plot and stitched them together with old dialog. It’s the frankenstein spinoff. All they needed was a gibbering sidekick and a scientist saying “It’s alive!!!!!!”.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — May 3, 2014 @ 1:27 pm

  121. Tigerlilly-being that Jensen himself was asked about this -If cas was female would Dean and cas get together- Jensen said no-so you and your destiel cohorts are just wishing for things that aren’t there.

    As for the queerbating- I am with you-there was a ton of it in s8-thats why I HATE that season. And I don’t watch much of it on the DVD. But as for seasons prior to 8-no -not so much-again you and your destiel cohorts want to see it- so you find it anywhere because you are looking for anything no matter how minute it might be to give you what you enjoy. That’s fine-That’s why we watch what we watch-to get enjoyment. It is this agenda push you and destiel have that ruin the fanbase. It has been shone BOTH CAS AND DEAN LOVE WOMEN. Not each other in the sense that you want it. In fact -again per Jensen -Dean isn’t even thinking about cas at this point. So go have fun but stop pushing it.

    Comment by animal — May 3, 2014 @ 3:36 pm

  122. Oh. Well, they literally used an entire scene from season six between Dean and Cas and replayed it word for word with David and Violet. Boy, you must love their bromance.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — May 3, 2014 @ 6:03 pm

  123. No tigerlilly what you saw was an uninspired script written by a writer that lacks any kind of imagination who stole ideas from every single show that is on the CW. Every sentence – every scene in bloodlines you could have seen and probably have seen in vampire diaries, the originals, the 100 ect ect. There was absolutely nothing original in that script. yea you could have seen what you saw as a throw to Dean and Cas but it also could have been a throw to any number of others actors and actresses-on any other show as well. You saw what you saw because you wanted and forced yourself to find it. I didn’t.

    As for bromance- Tigerlilly I have never ever seen bromance in this show. To me that word is a bull shit word made up by horny girls and boys who want to see two good looking men have sex to fulfill their own sorry lack of excitement in their own lives. IMO its a word that shows total disrespect for Jensen and Jared and what they have built for their characters the past 1-9 years. (I keep Misha out of this because he plays/preys on these poor horny people). When I see these actors on screen – when I see Sam and Dean I see two brothers who love each other as brothers – as family – who have done and gone thru extraordinary things together. When I see Jensen and Misha as Dean and Cas I see a guardian angel in Cas with misha playing him with both female and male characteristics. Originally he played him as pure male until misha decided to play/prey on the feelings of these horny groups of males and females and fed them the possibility that Cas might have a thing for Dean. So he started to play cas more with female characteristics.

    Comment by animal — May 3, 2014 @ 8:04 pm

  124. @123 animal, bravo. Just BRAVO!!!

    Comment by JT — May 3, 2014 @ 9:51 pm

  125. tigerlilly, you write extremely well, and I really enjoyed reading parts of your review. But bromance, like Destiel, is an invention of a small group of viewers; it has nothing to do with the show, its characters, or the actors, all of whom are married men with children. “Shipping” heterosexual male leads of TV shows has been going on at least as far back as “Star Trek.” I’m sure It’ll keep going on long after SN ends. I just think it’s important for those interested in such fantasies to realize that’s all they are. Fantasies.

    Comment by JT — May 3, 2014 @ 10:15 pm

  126. Um. You both seem to have gotten the wrong end of the stick, as my father would say. You might want to try googling ‘bromance’, since it doesn’t mean what you think it means. Also ‘sarcasm’. Just to be on the safe side.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — May 4, 2014 @ 2:01 am

  127. @JT – preferring a storyline or a character arc does not imply anything about the actors as people. My assumption is actors, uh…ya know…act.
    I mean, Jensen played a serial killer in ‘My Bloody Valentine’. Do you assume he kills people on the weekends for fun?
    @animal – onlybro fans are the ones constantly talking about how hot the Js are and complaining when they don’t get to see enough skin. Whereas Destiel shippers ship and make videos etc. based on the show as it is now, when they barely touch. Seems like you guys are the horny, sex-crazed ones, not us.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — May 4, 2014 @ 2:24 am

  128. Your My Bloody Valentine reference is not comparable tigerlilly. Jensen WANTED to play the serial killer. His character from the get go was written as a serial killer. Jensens Dean was written as straight. He has ALWAYS been written and meant to be straight. You and your cronies are trying to force a change to Jensens Dean and who Jensen made that character be. That is my disgust with Destiel and your motivations. I have no problem with Destiel staying where it belongs. In the fanfics. You guys are totally disrespecting him and his character.

    Comment by animal — May 4, 2014 @ 4:23 am

  129. And you and the Destiel people don’t complain when Cas and Dean are separated, not seen on screen together?? Come on Tigerlilly they voice very loudly what they want. And what they want is to totally change a character for their own fantasies. No other reason. With total disreguard for what the actor wants for his character and what said actor has built for 9 seasons.

    Comment by animal — May 4, 2014 @ 4:39 am

  130. My whole point, animal, was that in this episode they literally took a scene between dean and cas, as written, and gave it to a romantic couple – and played it as a romantic scene. Did you even watch the episode? Well, I wondered if folks like you would recognize it, but you didn’t so question answered.
    Given that answer to my question, if I were the showrunner, I’d be tempted to have my cake and eat it too.

    They could totally captain kirk it i.e. they’re sitting on the bed together at night and then they cut to the morning and one is sleeping and the other one putting their boots on and you’d still be like they’re totally hetero, nothing happened, you crazy shippers. (oh, wait, was that in 9×06?)

    Or they could have Cas and Dean make themselves scarce and then come back with big grins, messy hair, and missing buttons.

    Or just have Sam in the foreground and them making out in mirror or behind a window in the background. The casual viewers wouldn’t notice. You guys would never notice, but the shippers would find it. We gif everything.

    So hey, I guess the fact that you WILL not see it, even when it’s totally canon text via parallel is kinda a good thing. I hope the show takes advantage of such obliviousness.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — May 4, 2014 @ 6:41 am

  131. Its not “totally canon text” tigerlilly- but you enjoy seeing what you want I really don’t give a damn what you see in subtext, text, under the covers in the guys pants or anywhere. My only objection is that your group disrepects Jensen and the character he built by pursuing this crap you have recited above and trying to get it canon on the show. You might want to go watch some of the other shows and you will see the same exact conversational text that you say is a copy of Dean and Cas. Try TVD, Try the Originals, try any of the love angsty shows its all the same dialogue. But whatever. Peace.

    Comment by animal — May 4, 2014 @ 6:58 am

  132. And for the record-how many beds are there in the room when they are sitting on the bed and it cuts to the guy putting boots on and the other sleeping??? Do you bother to look at the whole picture or does you mind block out what could be just two guys sleeping in a room together?? It doesn’t have to be anything at all tigerlilly. And the idea that you posted is a sexual thing which you originally said wasn’t the center of the Destiel crap so ummm-yea it is. purely sexual.

    Comment by animal — May 4, 2014 @ 7:09 am

  133. You and your cronies seem very easily manipulated by writers and by whats on screen.

    Comment by animal — May 4, 2014 @ 7:15 am

  134. Well, this convo is better than the “which brother sucks harder” argument going on in the “King of the Damned” thread at least. @Animal, I don’t necessarily agree with your take on the situation, but I do agree that arguing about it now is pretty well pointless :p.

    I wanted to clarify wrt “Bromance.” Bromance =/= shipping or searching for homoerotic subtext. Quite the opposite actually- a “bromance” is a deep platonic relationship between two men not sexually attracted to one another. The most on-the-nose example I can think of is JD and Turk from “Scrubs” who “love each other, but not in a gay way.” I tend to enjoy bromance shows such as SPN and BBC Sherlock, and also loved the LOTR movies for that. All characters are canonically straight or non-sexual. “Bromance” is about friendship.

    SPN is indeed packed with bromance, namely, intensely loving male relationships with no sexuality involved. There’s always an impulse to romanticize really intense relationships, and the SPN writers, like the Sherlock writers and others, sometimes pander to that end of the fandom. It can be fun within the fandom. Canonically, however, I think it misses a large point in the show, about the depths and extremes of non-sexual love.

    Comment by Jaytee — May 4, 2014 @ 8:00 am

  135. Jaytee-you have missed my point about the word bromance. Its not a word. It was a word that was made up by a man named Dave Carnie for the Big Brother Magazine in 1992. That magazine went out of business in 2004. You can research it if you want to know what that magazine really was. There is no such thing as bromance. Not in a literal sense anyway. By the way if bromance is for guys what is the female counterpart to that word. I haven’t heard? A certain group of tv fans latched onto that word to describe what is frankly a close FRIENDSHIP or BROTHERLY BOND. Bromance makes it seem a little bit more sexual in nature.

    Comment by animal — May 4, 2014 @ 8:25 am

  136. Spn is indeed packed with friendships Jaytee -not bromance. Its also full on -full force -packed with brotherly love and connection and bonding. Family dynamic basically in simple terms. Not sexual in anyway shape or form.

    Comment by animal — May 4, 2014 @ 8:27 am

  137. Tigerlilly- I have noticed you never EVER address the fact about disrespecting Jensen in all your posts. So obviously you don’t give a damn what he wants or what he built these past 9 years. Its only what you want and what your cronies want that matters right?? Is that selfish??? Think so.

    Comment by animal — May 4, 2014 @ 8:33 am

  138. We seem to essentially agree animal. My whole point is that the relationships on the show are non-sexual, but still deep and intense. I don’t need any of these characters having sex to buy the level of love and devotion they have for each other.

    As for whether “bromance” is a word, or a concept, or a thing- that debate gets around a lot with the English language with lots of terms, and it’s subjective. If people have been using the term to describe the concept for over 20 years, is it a word yet?

    You’re right that we don’t get as many intense female friendships in media, which is a shame (Xena and Gabrielle were a big example, but that got skewered in the later seasons). As a woman, I’d like to see that idea explored a bit more- again, without turning it into some kind of “secretly wish they were gay” fan service. Part of that has been a cultural swing- women have been able to cry/hug/share beds/declare love for one another for decades, whereas men have been long expected to remain more aloof from other men. We just recently re-discovered that men can be that close too, without it being sexual, so it’s gone trendy.

    Comment by Jaytee — May 4, 2014 @ 8:45 am

  139. Well you can say bromance is slang for Friendship. I believe the Urban Dictionary has the word Bromance in it. And that dictionary is all about slang words. A slang word is not really a word or is it? Gawd this conversation is strange. lol.

    Comment by animal — May 4, 2014 @ 8:56 am

  140. How does one re-discover that men can be close like women?? I never doubted that they are/can be. Italian men kiss each other all the time. Most men hug one another. My son is in the High School band 8 boys slept in the same hotel room. (it was a huge deluxe room.) 3 of them slept in the same bed.(king sized bed) Well tried to. One was too heavy so the other two ended up sleeping in chairs and the floor. The others were in double beds -2 sleeping together as well and sleep sofas. That doesn’t make them gay-it makes them tired and want something soft to sleep on.

    Comment by animal — May 4, 2014 @ 9:05 am

  141. I just think that society and certain groups tend to see things that they want to see instead of seeing what is actually there. Anything to make “me” happy is now the norm. Anything goes, no limits, no reserve,no morals just me and my needs type of mentality a “I don’t care about anybody else.” mentality.

    Comment by animal — May 4, 2014 @ 9:08 am

  142. Haha, yeah I’m talking pretty Western-centric here (which SPN is). I know other cultures haven’t had the same hang-up- when I lived in South Korea, men were more physically demonstrative with each other than women or couples were with each other, and similar can be said for various Asian cultures, as well as Russia. But North American culture had that issue for awhile- women hugged and gushed, men shook hands and gruffly said it was good to see each other. Part of the machismo culture that men don’t express emotions in general. Not saying it’s a good thing, but it was definitely a thing in North America for a few decades, and only in the last decade or two, people have started to be like, “Wait, men can hug and it’s not gay.”

    Dean Winchester is a good example of subverting the trope. In the early seasons, he was a man’s man- into his car, his guns, his music, and beautiful women- yet would still cry and/or hug and/or make emotional declarations of his devotion to Sam (which, to North Americans a generation or so ago, would have been decidedly “unmacho” behaviour).

    So the “bromance” idea seems to be a reaction against that mind-set, that men can’t be close and emotional with each other without it being “gay.” I think the concept is a good one for North Americans to get around, even if the term itself proves troublesome.

    Comment by Jaytee — May 4, 2014 @ 10:14 am

  143. Now, Destiel, Wincest, and other slash fans are fighting a bit of a different battle where Show’s concerned. Whereas I like the idea of “men can love each other deeply without it being gay,” Destiel and other shippers want “Heroes can be gay and have romantic relationships and still be heroes.”

    And that’s not a crazy thing to want. When I occasionally stumble across slash fan stuff, there tends to be a lot of language about “representation” and such. I think there should be more LGBT heroes, and LGBT romantic b-plots (and main plots) in media that don’t treat it like a huge deal or a fringe thing. BUT I don’t think SPN is that venue. Sam and Dean were both established as hetero early in the series, Cas was established as non-sexual early on, with occasional hetero leanings since then. Pairing up any of them now would go against established characterization. The counter-argument I’ve seen is that sexuality can be fluid and Dean’s sexuality can shift over years. But having Dean “switch teams” now would throw a lot of focus on his shifting sexuality, which leads to the second big issue.

    Romance has always been very secondary in the SPN-verse – apart from being hetero, both Sam and Dean are practically celibate at this point (If “Rock and a Hard Place” is to be believed, Sam may have renounced sex/romance entirely, and I don’t blame him!). Cas has pretty well never been sexual with rare exceptions. Putting two of the major characters into a romantic relationship risks shifting the dynamic, focus and feel of the show drastically. In a show like “Friends,” where there’s always dating and relating going on, you can pair up major characters at any point without too much repercussion. In a mostly-romance free show like SPN, you risk strangling the characters in red string.

    Comment by Jaytee — May 4, 2014 @ 10:30 am

  144. @jaytee – see I think that keeping the show focused on the supernatural is a perfectly reasonable objection to Destiel. However, given there have been love interests in almost every season that doesn’t really seem to be too strong an argument.
    I also think not wanting to put focus on the sexualities of the characters is a reasonable argument – you might be surprised that most Destiel fans agree with you. We love the characters as they are and want who they love to be one more part of who they are, not the whole of the character, I.e. “The gay character”. I gave three ways they could incorporate Destiel above that would take hardly any screen time. Not to mention that just having them kiss really doesn’t take up that much time or have to shift focus that much.
    I personally, I also think it’s important to acknowledge and value friendship. I ship Dean and Cas as friends or lovers. I just think the show is a lot better (and has some hope for the characters) if Dean has someone other than Sam who cares about him. Because Dean’s fundamental character arc, from the very beginning of the series, is the need to have a family of his own, that loves him as much as he loves them, that won’t abandon him, that he doesn’t have to worry will be taken from him. That’s Cas. It just is. Originally (like around season six) I thought they’d be good as hunting partners, because then Sam could find his happiness and Dean could too. Dean would still have his hookups on the side and Cas wouldn’t care. But then I realized that given how important sex was to Dean – he’d probably be happier if Cas was a partner in every sense. And then in season eight my perspective shifted and I just couldn’t help but see them as a romantic couple.
    Animal, as you may be beginning to see, thinks it’s immoral and insulting to the actors to suggest anything of the kind. I disagree.
    I also think there’s plenty of people who would say Dean is not exactly your typical straight guy. His relationship profile is frankly a lot closer to a closeted gay guy in denial than a straight guy. Remember also, that other than the porn star, (which was kinda an who thing) Dean hasn’t actually gotten busy with a woman in like two seasons. I think a lot of people just checked th hetero box for Dean in the first two seasons and never went back to reexamine their assumptions.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — May 4, 2014 @ 5:03 pm

  145. Sorry (damn autocorrect ) not a who thing, an ego thing

    Comment by t1gerlilly — May 4, 2014 @ 5:05 pm

  146. t1gerlilly, Dean lived with Lisa for a year. Since then, he’s been busy dealing with Sam’s soullessness, battling Leviathans, getting stuck in purgatory, helping his brother try to close the gates of hell, and trying to keep Abaddon from destroying humanity. There are only so many hours in a day, you know. But I’ll tell you one thing. If Dean were gay, he wouldn’t have had such a great time with his favorite porn star. Gay guys aren’t sexually attracted to women.

    Comment by JT — May 4, 2014 @ 5:41 pm

  147. @T1gerlilly,

    With the LI’s, I figure they’re either only around briefly for the short-term ones (like the porn star) or mostly kept offscreen for the long-term ones (Lisa or Amelia). Day to day, Show doesn’t have much in the way of romance, and both brothers get remarkably little action for their age and looks :p. Dean’s been with one woman in the last two years, and it’s been almost as long for Sam since he left Amelia (and as mentioned above, there’s hints that Sam has given up on romantic pursuits entirely by now). Romance has never been a big focus of the Show, which is why many people are apprehensive about how much focus it would take on between major characters if it happened.

    You do allude to a point that I think is becoming important in-show, that both brothers seriously need friends and other people. I’m totally down with both Dean and Sam having friends. I LOVE that Cas and Sam have been interacting more. I find it maddening how little Sam gets to talk to people who aren’t Dean, especially at the moment when he’s supposed to be the POV guy to Dean’s slide. And you’re right that Dean focuses too much on …well, not even really on Sam, but I think often his *idea* of wide-eyed Sammy that he has to protect. I always want them to be closer to each other than anyone else, but they are too insular now, and it’s not good for either of them. I’d like SamnDean to be less “there’s nowhere else for me to go” and more “there’s nowhere else I’d rather be.” Lord knows if that’ll happen though.

    TBTH, I don’t see the subtext myself between Dean and Cas, though obviously others do. I do see romantic subtext between other male characters on other shows, but I’ve never really picked up on it between Dean and Cas, presumably because Dean IS so preoccupied with Sam.

    Now, to get all psych-y on you, would canon Destiel really address Dean’s issues? Others have said that the brothers aren’t codependent, but I don’t really buy that. They really can be, at least based on a simplified definition of the condition. Dean shows denial-control signs, Sam shows compliant-avoidant signs, and both show the self-esteem signs of codependency. And what I’ve noticed over the series is when the brothers are separated from each other, they seem to more sub someone else into the vacant role than form a new relationship. Dean finds “new brothers.” Sam finds girlfriends that are kinda like Dean and nurture him and tell him what to do. Cas himself has been placed in the “little brother role” by Dean when Dean and Sam were separated in S5.

    SO, at this point, would canon Destiel help Dean with anything, or would he basically be subbing Cas for Sam into a similar all-consuming dynamic? Would it really be healthier for Dean, or just codependence with sex added (creating an actually MORE insular relationship than even Sam and Dean currently have)? My concern is that Dean would basically switch from SamnDean to CasnDean without that much character shifting (aside from being openly gay).

    Comment by Jaytee — May 4, 2014 @ 6:39 pm

  148. @JT – the Lisa thing kinda makes my point tho. Dean has a lost weekend with her then runs into her again and thinks her kid could be his son – totlally running into his family issues and abandonment issues, so that he thinks of her and Ben as the family he’ll never have. Sam picks up on this and makes him promise to go to Lisa. Which he does – and is completely miserable – and leaves as soon as Sam gets back and then wipes Lisa’s memory so that not only can he never go back – Sam can never ask him to do that again.
    The porn star thing – ugh. I have a lot to say about that, – let’s just say that pressuring an emotionally compromised woman to do something against her beliefs seemed really out of character for Dean. Especially doing it for bragging rights or because she’s a check mark on your bucket list. Kinda revolting. But that’s Jenny Klein for you.
    As for whether he enjoyed himself, they captain kirk’d it I.e. cut to after it was over, so who’s to say. It’s not like he (or she, for that matter) was in that great a mood for the rest of the episode – and she was pretty clear it was a mistake that she regretted. Most people think Dean is bi, including me. So I really don’t think it’s that big a deal if he sleeps with tons of women. He already has – he just doesn’t fall in love with them. It’s just that, objectively speaking, that whole heterosexual doesn’t really seem to be working out for him. Definitely not making him happy.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — May 4, 2014 @ 10:14 pm

  149. @jaytee – you bring up really good points. I agree that there are signs of unhealthy dynamics in the brothers relationship. By that I specifically mean things that hurt both of them. I really value sibling bonds and want the brothers to be happy individually, but still have a close, healthy relationship.
    The thing about Cas is that he doesn’t let Dean control him. Unlike practically every other character, he argues with Dean – and sometimes he wins. He forces Dean to talk – I.e. out of his reflexive denial. He forces Dean to acknowledge the limits of his responsibility and his own right to make choices (a la purgatory). He also protects Dean, and does whatever he can to preserve his life or happiness, even if it means sacrificing himself or his relationship with Dean. He puts Dean first, before his family, before his life – even before god. He values and respects Dean – telling him he’s worthy of being saved and supporting his choices (like telling him he was trying to do the right thing this season). Plus Cas understands how important Sam is to Dean, and would never, as Lisa did, see their relationship or Sam’s presence in Dean’s life as a negative.
    So I really think Cas is one of the few lifelines Dean has out of the codependency that leaves his relationship with his brother intact.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — May 4, 2014 @ 10:35 pm

  150. Dean did not pressure that porn star into having sex with him. She CHOSE to have sex with him. If her celibacy was as important to her as she claimed, she wouldn’t have come onto him. All he said was he liked her movies. That’s all it took for her to abandon her “beliefs.” Ever since that episode aired, people have acted like that woman had zero control over her situation. That is entirely untrue.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 5, 2014 @ 3:46 am

  151. @t1ggerlilly: It’s funny how you accused other people of having a “twisted” version of the show and now you come up with your crazy shipping fest.

    It’s funny, because there has been a lot more Wincest references in the show than Destiel (only this season we had the “stop flirting with the trainer” line and Crowley saying Sam is Dean’s “wife”), but Wincest shippers are not going over there saying it’s canon. Eric Kripke himself wrote the episode where Becky was writing Wincest fanfic, which means that Kripke himself wrote wincest fanfic on the show. But Wincest fans know that is only a “reference”, are happy about it and that’s it. Why Destiel shippers don’t get it? Probably because Destiel has never been referenced on the show. Or maybe beecause the most vocal ones are bratty teenagers.

    You have a curious definition of the word “canon”. The gifs you make on Tumblr blowing normal, minimal, casual interactions waaaay out of proportion it’s not canon. Your twisted theory about Dean going dark because he misses Cas (seriously WTF?? talking about crazy headcanons, dude)is not canon. Subjective apreciation of casual looks is not canon. Dean and Cas getting along and caring for each other doesn’t mean Destiel is canon.
    All this, it’s only you projecting what you wanna see on the show and you and your fellow fans convincing each other via Tumblr that is there beacuse it’s what you want to believe.

    Dean sleeping only with women on the show IS canon. Jensen and the writers and producers saying that Dean is straight is the most crushing evidence you can get, but you still think that it’s there despite that. I really admire your ability to live in constant denial. I’m afraid it’s only going to leave you ultimately dissapointed.

    You accuse other people of not seeing Dean as gay because he’s manly and yet you use your own version of “how a closeted gay guy is supposed to behave” to justify your vision of him. Classy. Being gay is a dude who likes dudes, period. Dean doesn´t like dudes, so he’s not gay. Besides, like @animal said, Jensen said that even if Castiel were in a female vessel, he/she would only be his friend.
    The ONLY time Dean could have shown some interest for a man is with Dr.Sexy. Maybe it was only hero worship, maybe he had a man crush, but then again, what that has to do with Cas? Cas is not Dr. Sexy, he’s an angel wearing a walking corpse.

    What makes you think Castiel would make Dean happy? Jensen said at a Con that Dean could NEVER really connect with Castiel because he’s an angel and they can’t really understand each other. And then, he said his relationship with his brother is the real deal (in a non-shipping kind of way, of course). Besides it’s a little bit sad that if Dean ever finds Cas physically attractive, it wouldn’t be Cas who he would be attracted to: it would be Jimmy. Cas doesn’t have beautiful blue eyes, Jimmy has.

    Really guys, these kind of conversations about shipping are tiring. Mostly because IT’S NOT HAPPENING. But some people seem to be obssesed with it. It’s sad that the thing they care about the most on the show is something that it’s not happening.

    Comment by emmanuel — May 5, 2014 @ 5:23 am

  152. t1gerlilly, under Gamble, certain writers and directors obviously encouraged the Destiel fantasies of a segment of the fandom. No doubt part of the reason they did this was to raise the ratings by appealing to and drawing in viewers interested in homosexual relationships.

    In time, the gay innuendoes and jokes both on and off screen became so flagrant, my guess is JA had finally had enough. He’d signed up to play a straight character, knew that most viewers wanted Dean to stay that way, and likely let his feelings be known to the producers in no uncertain terms. (As we know, JA does not mince words.) Hence, the producers/writers made a concerted effort to undercut Destiel fantasies. Viewers heard Dean tell Castiel to stop standing so close (“We’ve talked about this”), to quit watching him sleep, and to keep out of his dreams. Such lines transmitted the clear message that, whatever some fans thought to the contrary, Dean “didn’t swing that way.” Dean’s year with Lisa also established that the character is a confirmed heterosexual.* Every effort has also been made to establish Castiel’s heterosexuality: he got married, had one or more hot nights with Meg, and continues to show considerable interest in porn about girls.

    Producers of at least one other show I know of tried to turn a straight character gay–most likely in an effort to draw in gay viewers. An actress who’d played a heterosexual character on a soap opera for many years found out the producers were making her character gay. The actress protested and was fired.

    Fortunately, JA has a lot more clout than she did, as does JP. For example, the two actors seem to have become fed up with the way SN was treating the concept of God, so they let their unhappiness with the situation be known. From what I read, an agreement was reached that any discussion of SN’s God would be strictly curtailed or eliminated altogether. Hence, SN’s God may be mentioned (as by Metatron) but we don’t hear anymore comments about his nature. Fortunately, the Js not only have the support of a huge fan base who’ll back them to the hilt, they’ve reached a point in their careers where they have more than enough money not to care about renewing their contracts.

    *ps By the time Castiel wiped away Lisa’s memory of Dean, the couple had broken up because of Dean’s obligations as a hunter. She had a new boyfriend, one who was killed by the same demons that took her and Ben captive. Her memory of Dean was expunged–not, as you claim, so Dean could never return to her–but to end her association with the Winchester so she and Ben would no longer be in danger. It was a weak resolution to the problem of Lisa–a generally unpopular character–but she and Ben were Gamble’s creations, and the show runner probably hoped to bring them back at some point.

    @150, Lisa1, I completely agree about the porn star!

    Comment by JT — May 5, 2014 @ 5:51 am

  153. @JT:”certain writers and directors obviously encouraged the Destiel fantasies of a segment of the fandom.”

    What? How? A couple of jokes here and there? They have done the same thing with other slash pairings! I remember Balthazar saying “go ask your boyfriend” (Sam/Cas) and “I hope you didn’t steal any kisses”(Sam/Dean). And how many times Crowley has flirted with the boys? How many times Sam and Dean have been mistaken for a couple? (office romance vibe).

    I don’t know what you guys mean with queerbaiting becuase they joke about it all the time with a lot of different slash pairings. THAT’S HOW GUYS TEASE EACH OTHER! But noooo, Destiel shippers have selective memory and they only remember what they want and they are stupid enough to take it as “proof” of their ship.

    @JT: “In time, the gay innuendoes and jokes both on and off screen became so flagrant, my guess is JA had finally had enough.”

    Except that they haven’t stopped the gay jokes. Like I said, recently we had the “stop flirting with the trainer” line. Maybe they only have stopped the Destiel jokes because people are starting to take it seriously and it never was their intention.

    It’s funny because I watch shows like Sons of Anarchy in which they are manly violent bikers and they are always making this kind of jokes, but apparently their viewing audience are smart enough to tell the difference. Not only that, but they are constantly hugging each other and saying “I love you” to each other. But it’s interesting that their audience understand how straight dudes treat each other.

    Comment by emmanuel — May 5, 2014 @ 6:36 am

  154. @153 emmanuel, thanks for the information. SN is the only TV series I watch, so I don’t know what other TV shows are like. For a time, It did seem SN’s producers/writers were intentionally feeding Destiel fantasies. Now, as you say, that’s stopped. The show’s standard gay jokes don’t bother me. A “civilized” form of mooning or jungle chest thumping between males, such jokes are typically used (seriously or not} to make the speaker seem stronger and more potent than his “weak,” “girlish” opponent. It’s such a silly business, but you’re right. It is the way guys talk.

    Comment by JT — May 5, 2014 @ 7:31 am

  155. @147 Jaytee. Re: ”Dean shows denial-control signs, Sam shows compliant-avoidant signs.”

    I wouldn’t mind if you got “all psych-y” on this :)

    Also I think many Dean/Cas fans would actually love it if Dean just redirected his energy from Sam to Cas. They might say they want the boys to be “healthy” but I think they’d want to see Romeo/Juliet type of intensity. This is evidenced by seeing parallels in Bloodlines which self-described David and Violet as Romeo and Juliet.

    Comment by San Summer — May 5, 2014 @ 8:16 am

  156. Well San Summer, that’s all they’ve got: their twisted theories and parallelism. You know what I do when I get tired of them? I watch the show, because there’s NOTHING of the crazy things they talk about there.
    I guess they gotta do those things to make the show bearable for them: We have had a lot of episodes without Cas and he’s been barely mentioned, the episode where Cas came back got the lowest numbers of audience of the season, Jensen said at Las Vegas Con that Dean is not thinking about Cas at all… So none of their Destiel delusions are fulfilling (God knows WHY they had them in the first place), so they have to invent something.

    Comment by emmanuel — May 5, 2014 @ 8:33 am

  157. I’m very uneasy about the rest of this season and next. Given the way Carver’s alienated the brothers from one another, I wouldn’t be surprised if one of them died (or whatever) and spent a large part of next season solving heaven’s problems with Castiel. Meanwhile, the other bro would be left to fend for himself on Earth. That would drastically cut down on the length of the 2 J’s workweek. Of course, the fans of Sam and Dean wouldn’t be happy, but does anyone at SN actually care about pleasing the audience anymore?

    Comment by JT — May 5, 2014 @ 9:46 am

  158. @emmanuel – um, you don’t see it. That’s fine with me. You ship Wincest. I think you know most of the things I could say about Wincest, because other people have probably said them to you. But I don’t want to fight. For one thing, I think it’s interesting to have every aspect of fandom appear in the discussion and I want you to feel like you’re listened to, rather than attacked.
    For another, I know you don’t like talking about shipping stuff. I posted a couple long reviews of the episode, but this was the only thing anyone picked up on.
    How about talking about some of the other questions I raised? Like whether you think Sam would have gone into hunting without Dean? Or whether Dean would have run away from his family and gone to college without Sam?
    We have very different opinions about the shipping stuff, but that’s ok, I’d still like to talk to you.

    @Lisa1 – we’ll just have to agree to disagree about his one. He gets into the apartment under false pretenses. She makes no move on him, but instead cries because she’s upset about her dead friend. Then she goes to get him books on charity and he rifles through her things and finds her old video. He then starts talking about it and she pleads with him not to ruin her new life. He keeps walking toward her and she then turns on a dime to pretend to be the girl in the video (thereby fulfilling his fantasies and keeping him from blackmailing her.) You really think, after saying she hates the person she was – she’s going to not just hit on him – but literally turn into that person unless she’s scared of him? And you think Dean wouldn’t know it? Everything about the situation just makes my skin crawl.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — May 5, 2014 @ 9:56 am

  159. No t1gerlilly, once again you refuse to understand what I’m saying. No matter what I ship, that’s not the issue. The issue is that you are sooo deep into the delusions of your invented fanon-ship (is what Tumblr does to some people)that you lost contact with the actual show. Don’t believe me? Then believe the people who makes the show who have talked about that matter.

    I’m a shipper, you’re right, but I don’t bother other people with my fantasies like you do. I understand the difference very clearly in my mind.
    And no, saying that the show is about Sam and Dean and their relationship is not shipping.Saying that their love for each other is what drives the show is not shipping, it’s the show the way it is, said by the creator, the two main actors, the writers, the producers and the vast majority of the fandom (mostly non-shippers) Destiel shippers are the ONLY part of the fandom who refuses to see that, you included, because apparently it gets in the way of your non-canon ship.

    This is a site about the actual show, not a shipping page. You’ll never hear from me talking about incest here, because that’s not happening on the show. I even celebrate when Sam or Dean have sex with women. So I’m asking you, PLEASE, stop shoving Destiel down everyones throats! Why? Because it’s not happening! There’s a lot of shipping pages out there!And honestly, I think not even you believe those crazy theories… You REALLY have to twist things in your head to believe those. And yet you dare to accuse other people of being deep into their headcanons… You can’t be serious…

    Comment by emmanuel — May 5, 2014 @ 10:50 am

  160. Oh, by the way, I don’t usually post because my English is bad and I get frustrated because I can’t express myself as good as I wish, so usually I only read the comments. But you seriosly needed a dose of reality.@animal is pretty good at it too.

    Comment by emmanuel — May 5, 2014 @ 11:01 am

  161. Emmanuel, look away ;D

    Beth: In dire need of some Supernatural scoop on Castiel! I feel like I have not gotten enough time with my favorite angel this season!

    Well, then you’ll love what’s ahead! Castiel’s role in the final episodes of the season “is really important,” supervising producer Andrew Dabb previews. “He is part of the mythology as he has been in seasons past for us. He plays big in the last…episodes.” But what about Season 10?! “As far as next season goes, look, we love Misha [Collins]. Misha’s awesome. I have a hard time imagining the show without him.”

    Comment by San Summer — May 5, 2014 @ 11:31 am

  162. San Summer, why are you telling me to look away? That article is not about shipping. Besides, we already kinda knew that.

    Comment by emmanuel — May 5, 2014 @ 12:06 pm

  163. @156 ”the episode where Cas came back got the lowest numbers of audience of the season”

    The thing that I find shady about that part of the fandom is how they say Dean/Cas fans affect the ratings etc. If that was the case, an episode where Cas is back after a long time should have good numbers since they campaign “Where is the angel?” etc. But it didn’t, the episode was the lowest rated of the season. A lot of other shows didn’t do well which shows that the ratings for Supernatural follow a similar logic to other shows.

    Yet if the numbers had been good, Castiel/Destiel fans would have taken credit for it saying that it’s proof Castiel brings in good ratings, how it must mean the audience is getting tired of “just the brothers” etc.

    @160. At least to me your English is good!

    @162 I got the impression you might not care for Castiel heavy stuff but maybe the annoyance was just regarding the shippers :)

    Comment by San Summer — May 5, 2014 @ 12:10 pm

  164. @Emmanuel- want your mind blown? Think back to the church scene in Sacrifice. Did the brothers just…make vows to each other to forsake all others, then embrace? In a church, at an altar? Um, yeah. You don’t need to be into Wincest to raise your eyebrows at this show on occasion.

    @JT: I’ve heard the rumour as well that Cas has been deliberately kept on a largely separate storyline lately, and his interactions with Sam ramped up, to try to dissuade the more rabid Destielers. I’m not down on Destiel (or any other ship- knock yourselves out people), but I do generally think it’s supposed to be a fanon thing, and bugging the creative team to make it canon (or worse, accusing them of homophobia or queerbaiting) is crossing several lines when discussing characters that are still canonically hetero. Back in the days when Wincest was the big ship, I recall some internet scolding of a fan who brought it up to the J’s at a convention- the idea was that it was “rude” to potentially squick the actors with incest or “bother” them with something that was understood to be strictly a fringe fandom thing.

    All that said, I’m not interested in chasing T1gerlilly out of town here. I find a lot of sites in this fandom are rather insular, which is generally a good thing, but I like the different (and generally friendly) viewpoints here.

    Comment by Jaytee — May 5, 2014 @ 12:22 pm

  165. @Jaytee, I hear Jensen told he bought a wincest phone case to Jared as a birthday gift XD So I suppose he isn’t that bothered.

    Comment by San Summer — May 5, 2014 @ 12:29 pm

  166. As for me, I’m not excited about the news. I assume Castiel is there to wrap up Metatron’s story etc. The angels falling hasn’t concerned the brothers all that much. I’d rather see a finale about the Winchesters instead of Castiel playing a big role again. Some felt Dean was sidelined in last season’s finale. Is Sam next? Castiel won’t and hasn’t as Dabb noted.

    Crazy how it could still play out like that although something huge happened this season that should affect both of the brothers because of the history of Cain/Abel etc. Maybe they’ll “save” that till really close to the end of the episode but until then it’ll just be about Sam worrying and Dean being a bit too gung-ho. Also Castiel will have some sort of cliffhanger of his own or otherwise they wouldn’t be so secretive about whether Misha will be back. So that will probably be a major part of the finale thus less time for development between Sam and Dean.

    Comment by San Summer — May 5, 2014 @ 12:36 pm

  167. @166 San Summer, I’m guessing we’ll find out Metatron has formed an alliance with Crowley. Or Crowley will be pushed into an alliance with Metatron and Abaddon who’ve formed an alliance with one another. The writers have to make the angel story relevant SOMEHOW.

    Comment by JT — May 5, 2014 @ 1:20 pm

  168. @167 JT. Maybe after this they’ll have to pull back on the angels. The civil war plot is played out. Cas and Metatron deciding they are God has already been seen so I hope there won’t be a third one. But somehow order needs to be restored in Heaven etc. so I suppose the angels will continue to have their own stuff going on while the brothers are out of the story.

    Comment by San Summer — May 5, 2014 @ 1:41 pm

  169. @San Summer, yeah, my annoyance is mainly for the shippers. It’s true that Castiel doesn’t interest me anymore (and I LOVED him during seasons 4 and 5) but I know he’s an important character, so I have no problem with hearing about him.

    @Jaytee, of course I know about the church scene. That’s my point: we make jokes about it, we fangirl over it in our corner and that’s it. Because WE KNOW it wasn’t really a wedding, we know that it wasn’t meant to be one. We know that the brothers love each other the most, but we know that it’s NOT that kind of love. What we do are just fantasies.

    @Jaytee: “I do generally think it’s supposed to be a fanon thing, and bugging the creative team to make it canon (or worse, accusing them of homophobia or queerbaiting) is crossing several lines when discussing characters that are still canonically hetero. Back in the days when Wincest was the big ship, I recall some internet scolding of a fan who brought it up to the J’s at a convention”

    -Very well said. This is exactly how I feel about shipping. And most of the people who felt that that person was crossing a line were Wincest shippers. I think Jensen’s disgust for Destiel is mainly (among other reasons) because their shippers are disrespectful and extremely pushy. The J’s have always been very cool about Wincest, specially in the early years, probably because people rarely crossed that line. Actually, it has been brought up more times by J2 than the fans in the last years. I’ve heard from them that they like to tease each other about it, because that’s what guys do.

    Comment by emmanuel — May 5, 2014 @ 1:54 pm

  170. @ tigerlilly- All I want to know-and have patiently read thru your comments – Does it matter to you what the actor wants for his character? The character he worked his ass off in perfecting and made into what Dean is today for 9 years. Does it Matter to you at all what HE WANTS FOR HIS CHARACTER? yes or no??

    Frankly-that is the only thing I have against you and the Destiel shippers. I don’t care who you ship and what you write/read/make in your own fandom space on tumblr , twitter, facebook, youtube and what any other medium you use. I care about this show, this actor, this character. I love Charlie-She was introduced as a lesbian -I accept that’s who she is. I love her. Dean has -always has been- was introduced as and verified that he is NOT GAY.

    So does that matter at all to you and your cronies? Just asking- again.

    Comment by animal — May 5, 2014 @ 2:01 pm

  171. @ emmanuel (170)

    Lol, I had honestly not thought of the church scene that way at all until I came across a random post a few weeks ago about “a promise made in a church,” and I was like “Agh! I can’t un-think that!” :p

    Comment by Jaytee — May 5, 2014 @ 2:27 pm

  172. @animal – the following post just crossed my dash as you asked your question. It was from someone at doc con:
    Actual conversation I had with Jensen
    Me: You’re my favorite person ever!
    Jensen: Why are you dressed like Cas then?
    Me: Because I’m your lover!
    Jensen: [laughs] Oh, of course!

    Does that sound like a guy who’s all worked up about the issue? Not to me.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — May 5, 2014 @ 2:27 pm

  173. @172 tigerlilly- and what was he going to say ? Gawd I can’t stand that get away from me?? Or walk rudely away from her? Come on tigerlilly I know you are smarter than that. Jensen is a smart polite generous actor he is not going to hurt a fans feeling face to face like that or ever. That doesn’t mean he wants his character to be gay. That still doesn’t answer the question. Does it matter what Jensen wants for his character?? yes or no?

    Comment by animal — May 5, 2014 @ 3:47 pm

  174. Maybe the big secret is Crowley is actually Abel?

    Comment by Kari — May 5, 2014 @ 7:56 pm

  175. @animal – honestly, characters are collaborative. They’re shaped by writers, actors and directors – hell, by cinematographers and editors too. I don’t discount an actor’s input, especially an actor who has been playing a part as long as Jensen. And as a person I would never want to see him uncomfortable.
    That being said – what’s the number one thing that people say about Jensen when they work with him: he’s a professional. And I don’t see where it’s any harder or more upsetting to play a guy who’s occasionally attracted to other guys than it is to play somebody who tortures people, or is a serial killer, or is a demon.
    The other thing about Jensen is that I feel like some of his best work is a little bit out of his comfort zone – that he just rises to the occasion when that happens in a really breathtaking way. I think, especially based on his last interview, that he’s in danger of getting bored with the character.
    I also think you put a lot of emphasis on passing remarks made years ago. Mostly he just doesn’t talk about shipping at all. But it’s not like he’s not aware of it. He could have put his foot down years ago and just said ‘I’ll never play that’ if he wanted to. So I don’t pretend to know what he really thinks about it, but I also don’t accept that anyone else does either.
    Plus, honestly, I’m a writer, and while I respect an actor’s contribution, I also recognize that they don’t have the whole picture. They need to respect the text and listen to the director. I often find it amazing how you guys will excoriate the writers on the one hand and then not recognize how much of the characters you love clearly comes from the writers.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — May 6, 2014 @ 12:05 am

  176. @174 Kari. Crowley is Abel? lol. Interesting. Well, why not. Just as possible as other suggestions and suppositions I’ve seen and heard.
    If now Crowley, then where is Abel? A storyline about the Mark of Cain seems to demand an appearance from Abel at some point.
    But who knows…

    Comment by beothy — May 6, 2014 @ 12:33 am

  177. I meant to type… if NOT Crowley, then where is Abel. Stupid fingers.

    Comment by beothy — May 6, 2014 @ 12:35 am

  178. @t1gerlilly, yes, Jensen has talked about shipping. And yes, he has talked about Dean/Cas because he has been asked about it at Cons. And everytime he has said the same thing: that Dean and Cas are only friends and that Dean is “very heterosexual”.

    He has been visibly pissed off every time someone has brought it up at Cons. I remember one time when he was in a really good mood in a panel with Jared, then someone asked him about it. Man, his face fucking changed! He answered shortly that that’s not what’s happening on the show and he was very quiet and visibly pissed off for the rest of the panel.
    Because of this, no one asks him about it anymore, because they know what kind of reaction they’re gonna get from him.

    So maybe that one time he didn’t have a bad reaction, but there are a million other times when he did (and it wasn’t long ago). They are recorded, so check them out and have fun. So we don’t “pretend” to know what he’s thinking, he has always been pretty vocal about it when he’s been forced to talk about it. But I see you are in denial about that too.

    Comment by emmanuel — May 6, 2014 @ 12:50 am

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  180. @175 tigerlilly-Well I enjoyed what you posted but its a long post where a simple “NO” was all I was looking for. Because what your post comes down to in the simplest of terms is – NO it doesn’t matter what Jensen wants. He HAS to do what TPTB write. So tigerlilly that is why you and your cronies bug the shit out of the writers and producers and directors because you want what you want and to hell with what Jensen wants. He doesn’t matter – Only What you want matters. And that’s all. Jensen is just a piece of meat in your eyes. If you actually respected him the answer to my question would have been “yes”.

    Its funny because the LGBT group and you demand respect but its only a one way street. You don’t respect anybody else. What I also find funny or sad is that this same group would rather be defined by their sexual behavior than who they are as a person. Instead of saying I am a teacher, a writer, a bus driver or whatever. Its I am gay first. I can’t see why anyone would want to be defined by their sexual behavior first and foremost before who they are as a person. But whatever. Peace tigerlilly.

    Comment by animal — May 6, 2014 @ 4:00 pm

  181. If the writers have a Destiel story brewing, wouldn’t they at least clue Jensen in? As far as he knows they are writing Dean as a “manly heterosexual.”

    At the most recent con, Jensen is quoted as saying that he and Jared don’t need producers credits because they already have quite a bit of creative say. so either the writers are conspiring to keep this all from Jensen or maybe he knows more than fans think he does.

    Comment by jace — May 6, 2014 @ 5:46 pm

  182. @jace, the writers and producers have already talked about it too, so they aren’t keeping secrets about it from Jensen.

    Jim Michaels said via twitter a few months ago that Destiel is a storyline that “doesn’t exist”.

    Robbie Thompson and Adam Glass said that there’s no romance between Dean and Cas.

    Chad Kennedy said that there’s no intention of making any main character of Supernatural (Dean or Sam) gay or bi.

    Ben Edlund was very dismissive about it in a Comic Con a couple of years ago. He said it was “weird” and he said to Jensen: “you don’t want anything of that shit”

    Eric Kripke said a few years back that the show is about the brotherhood and camaraderie between straight men. Everything else is fan-made.

    Comment by emmanuel — May 7, 2014 @ 3:45 am

  183. @animal – you seem to be a very binary thinker: yes/no, black/white, gay/straight. You dislike dealing with complexity or shades of gray. I think that may be a big part of why we disagree. You think if a character is presented one way that they have to stay that way forever, that they show new traits, or come to understand themselves better , or simply change. And I don’t just mean this in your attitude towards Dean being bi, but also in the way you refuse to admit when he does wrong things – because you see him as a hero and justify everything he does on that basis. Like he can’t be a good person who has done a bad thing; he has to be either good or bad.
    Similarly, you don’t think a story can have multiple valid interpretations or have text and subtext. For example, last year, when you hated the fact that Dean was cleaning and cooking for Sam, because you felt this wasn’t manly – completely disregarding the subtext that Dean is like a parent to Sam.
    You like things simple, and I can appreciate that, but I’m very different. It’s true that I don’t agree with you, but I work pretty hard to be polite and respectful. I think it’s reasonable for fans to advocate for what they want on the show. The irony is, I don’t actually do that, so what you’ve said about me is just untrue.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — May 7, 2014 @ 4:16 am

  184. emmanuel, very true. Kripke spoke recently about the comparison of the male relationships on Supernatural and Revolution and confirmed that his thing is writing emotional relationships between men–straight men-who are brothers or friends because he find it interesting to write emotional stuff for guys who would never express it.

    Comment by jace — May 7, 2014 @ 8:55 am

  185. @jace, I believe the Kripke quote you are looking for is:
    Turns out I have a thematic which is between friends, who are brothers, with unstated homoerotic subtexts. I’m like, “Why is that my deal?” Like frankly I need some therapy time to understand why I keep going back to that issue.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — May 7, 2014 @ 11:42 am

  186. Well, what I remember he said a few years back is that he was interested in the relationship of STRAIGHT (he used that word) men, but fans kept sexualizing it and it was never his intention. Kripke always took it with good sense of humor. After all, we are talking about the guy who wrote Wincest fanfiction on the show via Becky ( rembember?)

    Comment by emmanuel — May 7, 2014 @ 12:58 pm

  187. tigerlily, ok. but that’s not what i took from the quote. Its from an interview where he was asked about subtext on Revolution. Like Cas/Dean, there is a segment of that fandom that wants Kripke to go there with Miles/Bass

    Here is my take: Homoerotic subtext may be an interpretation of his work but it is not intentional on his part. HIS intention is to write intense, complicated relationships between straight characters be they friends or brothers. People can play with subtext all they want but according to Dean’s creator, Dean is straight. So is Sam and Miles and Bass.

    “Turns out I have a thematic which is tight relationship between friends/brothers with unstated homoerotic subtexts…I’m just really interested in guys- straight guys- who have a tight friendship,they’re really fun to write, because they never say how they really feel, and there’s always a lot of punching each other and saying jokes, you can write emotional stuff because guys never say what’s emotional.” – Eric Kripke, the creator of Supernatural and Revolution

    Comment by jace — May 7, 2014 @ 3:21 pm

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