“Gets back to the Supernatural action of Cas, Gadreel, and Crowley”? What? Are Sam and Dean going to be appearing as guest stars on their own show–AGAIN?
@1 Jaytee, so true about SN’s tight budget, but did you notice the lavish sets, great locales, costly special/visual effects, and legion of actors and extras on “Bloodlines”? As far as the CW is concerned, SN will always be the red-headed stepchild–even compared to its own spinoff.
ps Jaytee, I don’t get the sense that Dean is weird about Sam hugging Castiel (or, more likely, the reverse). Except occasionally with Sam, and as we’ve seen with Garth, Dean is not a hugger. “No feely-touchy moments,” as he used to put it.
@JT, oh, I meant Dean was weird about Cas hugging HIM, not about Cas hugging Sam :p (I’m not a slasher, and I doubt Dean’s THAT possessive of either one). I’m assuming it’s supposed to call out Dean’s increasing emotional hardness that he doesn’t hug Cas now, as he has before.
I don’t know how much it costs to fling people across rooms, but dammit, they have Abaddon in the same episode throwing Dean like a tennis ball. How much extra does it cost to have a few other actors do the same?
Dean usually delivers jacket porn but I don’t like that one.
This hugging thing is still a little weird to me. They went without hugs for basically five seasons and now Cas hugs everyone! Was he always meant to be a hugger when it came to angels but Sam’s hug opened up the floodgates and now he’ll greet the brothers with a hug?
@4 Jaytee, I didn’t think you were a slasher–HA! I’m guessing this whole hugging business goes back to the episode where Sam hugged the reluctant Castiel and unwittingly conveyed the message that this is a standard form of greeting among humans. Since Castiel isn’t the brightest light in the ceiling, he’s probably taken to hugging anyone and anything he can get ahold of–including the baffled and annoyed Dean.
@5 I just saw your post San Summer. I think you’re right. Sam’s hug opened the floodgates. Too bad Sam didn’t stick his thumbs in his ears and wiggle his fingers. I’d like to see Castiel adopt that as a typical human form of greeting.
You know, his cluelessness about human behavior might have been cute at first; now, it just makes him seem unaccountably stupid.
@JT. Definitely a change in tone! Hugs all around when it comes to Charlie, Garth, Jody etc. Now Cas will be doing the lighthearted hugs. He used to be portrayed as someone who wouldn’t necessarily understand the appeal.
Well, crap. This looks like a Cas-centric episode, damn it! Will we EVER get to Sam and Dean? Am looking forward to seeing Tahmoh again.
I also don’t like all the hugging crap going on, either. The writers are over-using that, but I suppose that is their way of showing that Cas is in-touch with his humanity and is no longer a mysterious warrior of God.
@ JT: I wished he would go make Slurpies in Chicago with that other bunch of middle-school monsters and male Krissy. I think the Juliets of the show would swoon over his wide-eyed contemplative soulful looks.
You may can tell that I am ticked off to get another episode of support characters. I haven’t watched the preview clip but once at the end of the episode, and they go so fast, I don’t catch a lot, but it looked like there is a Dean/Abaddon meeting, so that will be interesting and; hopefully, longer than a one-minute scene.
I’m not seeing how Crowley’s son can be much of a bargaining chip, as he admitted to Bobby that he didn’t give a shit about him and they mutually hated eachother’s guts.But hey, we know how this gang of writers likes to just rewrite any and all cannon, so what the hell.
Wasn’t wearing the mark supposed to give one incredible superhuman strength after having it for a time? Then why the hell is Abaddon still able to throw Dean around like a rag doll?
I want to give this a chance before bitching and whining but I fear a big letdown coming.
@3- I still don’t know what you guys mean. We have seen Dean very enthusiastically hug Cas, and he’s been lovingly hugging Sam since as long as I can remember. He was only reluctant to hug Garth at first because he got on his nerves.
Another thing that will disappoint me is this business of Gadreel now becoming the good guy. Jst no! I am not absolving Dean of his fault in Sam’s possession, but Gadreel DID lie to Dean, and he used Sam’s body to kill Kevin, not to mention Abner(the other angel was a douche, so no tears there).And now he gets a pass on all that? Hell no, Sam deserves to have his revenge!
How refreshing it would be if for once, the bad guy STAYED the bad guy!
Man, I sure hope there’s no redemptions planned for either Abaddon or Metatron.
@ roxi: That’s the point, roxi. Dean is now the biggest hugger in the universe when, early on, he was a “no chick flick moments” guy. As I recall, hugs didn’t come between Sam and Dean for years, and now every time they run into someone, they hug. Over-used, IMO.
Even if Gadreel changes sides, I think he’s a dead angel walking. That’s how the show usually handles reprehensible acts. I am just hoping that in addition to killing Kevin and Abner, they don’t forget that he broke Dean’s trust — which Dean does not give freely. I suspect that point will be dropped, though, in favor of the killing.
@14- Well, I remember Dean hugging Sam tight in season 2. And I don’t get why some fans seem to think there’s something unmanly about guys showing physical non-sexual affection to eachother.
Gadreel did break Dean’s trust, however, in this case, I feel that the person he wronged the most is Sam, and Sam deserves to get his justice more than anybody against him. But no, oh look! Gadreel will be a major part of CAS’S story! At this point though, I guess that should come as no surprise.
Well both Gadreel and Cas screwed with Sam so they are on even ground. Since Cas is a buddy of Sam’s – Gadreel should be as well no???? Sam seems to be able to forgive Cas- so he should be able to forgive Gadreel as well. I am not saying that is right -but if you follow the thought line of the writers. This is how it should be. Sam forgives Gadreel. Dean too-he should forgive Gadreel as well.
For the record, I always felt and stated the I feel that Sam forgave Cas way easier than he should have.Not that I NEVER wanted him to forgive Cas, I just feel that it should have taken a bit mnore time than just “as soon as we found Cas again”.
So to those who hate Dean now and feel Sam should never, EVER forgive him, I reiterate: Sam forgave Cas extremely easily, Cas who is not only not the brother who had loved, sacrificed his life for, and taken care of his whole life, but Cas who did what HE did to Sam with willful intention to harm him as a bargaining chip to stay Dean’s hand. So with all this in mind, if CAS got Sam’s forgiveness( and warm friendship to boot) then I certainly do not understand why at some point, not right away but at some point, Sam should be able to forgive Dean, who meant only to save him, NOT cause him harm but who unintentioanlly fucked up royally.
@13 Roxi, I agree with this, much as I wanted and was rooting for Gadreel to be a good angel when he first appeared, I cannot forgive him for killing his best friend. There was no real reason to do so… just because Metatron told him to… he is still very easily manipulated and he learned nothing in all his years of captivity.
Sam will have no problem forgiving Dean but Dean hasn’t even asked for forgiveness and doesn’t look as if he ever will considering that (a) he said he’d do it again and (b) he has passed the buck for his actions onto Gadreel. So Sam will readily forgive Dean (and probably already has considering how well they’re getting on at the moment. How Dean treated Sam at the start of season 5 and season 8, that’s how someone who doesn’t forgive acts and we haven’t seen Sam come any way close to that) but I don’t think he will forget all that easy.
I also agree that Gadreel deserves forgiveness and/or understanding (or at least not being killed) for what he did. He did as Dean asked at the start. He helped Sam, helped Dean with cases and brought Castiel and Charlie back to life. It was only when his safety was threatened by Dean telling ‘Sam’ that he ‘betrayed’ (aka didn’t act like Dean wanted him to) Dean and then got given the obligatory death sentence.
@20- But Dean DID forgive Sam! It took time but he eventually did. He was hurt and angry for a while(and he had every right to be, just as Sam has every right to be hurt and angry now) Nobody said Sam should forgive him easily or that it should be right away. Just that since he forgave Cas extremely easily for what were indeed intentional actions meant to cause him harm, I don’t understand why he can’t, in time and after Dean finally sees and owns up to the fact that his actions were very wrong, why Sam won’t eventually be able to forgive the brother who pretty much raised him, sacrificed his life for him, lived almost entirely for him, and loved him more than anything his who life, especially when he DID NOT commit his transactions with the the knowledge and intent to hurt him.
I disagree that Gadreel should get off scot free just because Dean allowed him to possess Sam. Dean was WRONG to do that, and nobody is absolving him of his guilt in the entire situation, but Gadreel lied to him as well about his intentions, making it sound like he would innocently heal and save Sam when what he really wanted to do was use him, and Dean was just desperate enough and stupid enough to blindly (and unknowingly) give him that opportunity.
So, you believe that Gadreel deserves Sam’s forgiveness more than Dean does, or at least that’s what it sounds like. Well, I very much disagree with THAT assessment.
Maybe Gadreel can earn forgiveness and redemption at some point, but he did set out deliberately to hurt and use others for his own benefit, as did Cas, so if they can merit eventual redemption and forgiveness, I believe that Dean has also more than earned that right.
And as far as season 8, Sam didn’t ask for forgiveness either, as he didn’t seem to think that not spending one second trying to figure out what happened to his brother and forgetting about him was anything he needed to ask forgiveness for. He then continued to act towards Dean as if he resented him being alive, so yeah, it would be hard for Dean to have a readily forgiving attitude I would think. Yet he DID forgive him and fell right back into existing solely for him as he has always done. But season 8 Sam was NOT Sam anyway, so I’m trying to forget that whole season happened
Dean did NOT “pass the buck” for his actions to Gadreel. He has already admitted that Kevin’s death is entirely his fault. What he’s blaming Gadreel for is only what Gadreel is guilty of:
presenting himself as a benevolent angel who only wanted to heal and save Sam, when what he really wanted was a strong vessel to heal himself and had no intention of leaving Sam’s body, and using Sam’s body to kill Kevin, also, working with Metatron.
Just a quick aside to break up the debate tension a little bit. Rewatching “Sam Interrupted” and thinking how huge the drug doses would have to be to get a mountain like Sam that wasted! LOL. If I ever have to have surgery, I sure hope they give me whatever they were supposed to have given Sam!
Sorry for all these posts, had a lot to say this morning.
JT- I 100% agree with you….
I think the show was based on two (charming)brothers Sam and Dean who hunt monsters and kill the demon…
And I seriously think that Jensen and Jared both have worked so awesome in the past 9 years that we (especially I) never felt the need of guest stars on the show….
and in these days, especially in the last episodes of the season,(in which the spotlight must be given to the brothers) I’ve noticed that other characters appear 25 minutes of the show and Sam and Dean appear 15 minutes of the show…….
Don’t take me wrong but its very bad….
@21. What makes you think that Sam won’t forgive Dean? That’s never even been mentioned in the show.
The final episode of season 8 very much shows to me that Dean has not forgiven Sam for his past transgressions. Add to that, as is evidenced many times in the past, intentions mean nothing (well, they mean nothing if you’re Sam), all that matters is the result. Sam didn’t intend to start the Apocalypse, he believed he was stopping it. Sam didn’t intend to leave Dean in Purgatory, he didn’t know he was in Purgatory, he believed Dean was dead. That didn’t stop him being dragged over the hot coals by the show and by the fans and having to seek redemption again and again.
And don’t attribute things to me that i didn’t say. I didn’t say that Gadreel deserves Sam’s forgiveness and Dean doesn’t. I didn’t even insinuate it. I certainly don’t believe that Dean should get the auto forgive and forget because they’re family and of their past. You make it sound as if it’s a one way street where all Dean does is give and all Sam does is take, and it’s certainly not like that.
@22. Gadreel set out to work with Metatron to ‘fix’ heaven. Understandable seeing as he is the one credited with messing it up in the first place.
@23. Sam didn’t forget about Dean, he spoke about him often with Amelia. I didn’t see any resentment to him coming back. At the start he said he wanted out of hunting but that was it. He seemed stunned to see Dean alive. Not surprising because he believed he was dead.
Dean did pass the buck. He said that he (Gadreel) was going to pay for what he did to Sam and Kevin. However, with regards to Sam, he has barely acknowledged what he himself did. It’s quite probable that once he killed Gadreel he’d feel that he had gotten revenge for what happened to Sam and Kevin and that would be case closed. But again, when is Dean going to atone (or even try to atone) for what he himself did? Sure he feels guilty, but that’s pointless unless he seeks to change his behaviour and prevent it happening again.
Gadreel did heal Sam so he wasn’t lying on that account. We don’t know what his intentions were when he did possess him first. There’s no reason to think that he possessed Sam with the intention of staying there. Perhaps that became the plan when his hand was forced.
@26- I NEVER said he wouldn’t forgive Dean. For not wanting someone to put words in YOUR mouth, your certainly have no problem doing that to others .What I said is that if Sam can forgive Cas, he should be able to forgive Dean.
Dean HAS forgiven Sam, he just didn’t forget, and perhaps he should. Dean, to me at least, has shown that he forgives Sam, simply by the fact that he continues to love him and make him the center of his world. And what about the fact that Sam STILL holds the Amy incident against Dean? Clearly he hasn’t forgotten that or let it go, so why is it ok for Sam not to forget past transgressions but not Dean?
I have stated MANY times on my posts that Sam thought he was stopping Lucifer and that he should be forgiven for that. Dean was not upset with him for that, but for choosing a demon over him, his own brother. And you’re also wrong in stating that nobody forgives Sam for freeing Lucifer, because pretty much EVERY fansite I’ve ever visited, they all acknowledge that Sam was tricked by Ruby into doing what he believed was the right thing. NOBODY is still holding that against him or if they are, it’s only a small handful.
Dean also has, despite what you claim, held himself to blame for Kevin’s death. He did NOT pass the buck there.I will continue to disagree with you on that.
And your accusation against me that I make it sound like all Sam does is take from Dean is also unfair. I never said that. I stated that Dean lives his entire live for Sam. That’s what has been shown on the show,I didn’t make it up. That is pretty much show cannon. How that translates into “All Sam does is take from Dean” to you is beyond me. Tell me, what life, what personal happiness does Dean have outside of Sam? NONE. That’s not Sam’s fault and I never said it was.I wish Dean did feel like he was worth something outside of existing for Sam.
Plus, I have also stated a bunch of times that Dean needs to see and acknowledge that he was very wrong in taking Sam’s choice away this season, as well as the possession and the cover up. I have also stated, too many times to count, that what Dean did was TOTALLY WRONG, despite his reasons, and that Sam has EVERY RIGHT to be angry and hurt about it.
I will also continue to disagree about the way Sam treated Dean last year. Sam didn’t know Dean was in Purgatory, but he also didn’t spend one second attempting to even try to figure out what might have happened to him. He just immediately assumed he was dead and washed his hands of it. And I’m sorry but yes, he seemed to me to have a rather lukewarm response to finding out that his believed to be dead for a year brother was alive; his response, to me, was like running into an old co-worker after 10 years. And he continued to act almost resentful of Dean’s presence. I most certainly did not want to see this,I had expected a much more loving response from the Sam that I knew, but this is what I saw. But Dean shouldn’t be hurt by this, shouldn’t feel resentful?
Gadreel was able to possess Sam because of Dean’s consent. There’s no getting around that and I have
NEVER, not once, absolved Dean’s responsibility or blame in this. Dean needs to own up to that and change. But Gadreel also didn’t just have pure intentions there and did NOT intend to leave Sam’s body until he got his own use out of it.He did willingly mislead Dean into believing he would heal Sam quickly and leave, which he had no intention of doing.
Apparently, you want to blame Dean for everything while absolving everyone else completely, Sam’s actions last year and Gadreel’s this year.
@25 Warah, wow! So true. When you break it down to actual minutes, it really shows how little we see of the Winchesters. As you say, it’s “very bad” for the series. From what I can gather, the ratings drop pretty drastically when the 2Js aren’t front and center.
As far back as S1, the two leads have commented about their long work days. So, now that SN is pretty secure, maybe JP and JA have had it built into their contracts that they would continue on the series only if their time off was increased, especially in the second half of the season. If so, that would leave it to Carver and Singer to come up with ways to replace them. I’m not AT ALL happy with supporting players dominating the show–especially during those last critical episodes you mention. On the other hand. I guess it’s better to see the Winchesters less often than not to see them at all.
I do think the show runners could have come up with far better ways of giving the boys downtime. I’m not a fan of Castiel and the angels; I find them and their stories excruciatingly dull. (Give me demons over angels any time!) But a lot of people like Castiel, so the producers probably figure Collins should stay on the series both to appease those viewers and to take up the slack when the leads want time off.
Anyway, if JP and JA seem like goest stars on their own series, I’m guessing they’re responsible. Can I blame them for wanting more time off? Not really. They probably get the same amount of money whether they appear or not. But maybe they’d be eager to put in more time if better writers were on the show. That way, the scripts would be worthy of the 2Js talents, and SN might finally get some significant awards.
I DO wish the Js were executive producers; if they helped call the shots, I think the quality of the show would vastly improve.
JT–completely agree about the executive producer business for J2. Long runing series frequently make the star actors producers. Why it hasn’t been done for CW’s longest running series with two obvious stars is a mystery. Its also a way of increasing actors’ salaries without having to dig into a long running series’ diminishing budget. If CW/WBros wants years beyond 10 that is the logical way to do it. And, as you say, J2 would clearly be more invested in the series.
@29, Casey T, I really appreciate all that information; I didn’t even know if such a thing would be possible for the Js. I just noticed that Tony Shalub (sp?) became an executive producer of “Monk,” and the show seemed to get even better. Given what you’ve said, it would be foolish for the Js not to insist on becoming executive producers. I’d think they’d be sick and tired of answering to producers by now.
Besides, if they have ambitions in the industry, experience as executive producers would certainly help. Of course, it could be they’re sick of acting and just want to concentrate on the wine business. I hope not! I’d love to see them produce and act in, “Supernatural: The Movie”! Maybe Kripke would join in, together with John Shiban, David Nutter, and other creative people from S1.
JT–Jared even commented that producer status was in his mind when thinking about beyond 10. My guess is that J2 in Vancouver and the producer clutch being in LA is a problem. No direct info, but I’ve always had the impression Jared is the more business conscious of the two and tends to speak for J2 about contracts. The CW might well decide however to try to take the SPN audience to Bloodlines and secure many more years from those viewers with really cheap actors and SPN’s stable of CW-level writing and producing talent. The episode did get a 1.0 rating–bested Arrow and Vampire Diaries; it even outdrew several of the big networks in the key demos. It got mauled by most critics, but the online crowd seems to have liked it in polls, and the CW follows the online audience–that’s why we have Castiel. Would not be surprised if SPN goes to Monday next year to salvage that night and then is axed. Unless there are some major changes like J2 being made producers, a new show runner, or a bevy of new writers, I hope 10 is the last year. Really tired of watching a once great show stripped of its best writers, taking emphasis off its main characters, and being made more and more for teens and preteens who follow Collins on twitter.
@ Orlaith #20: I don’t think Dean has passed the buck to Gadreel; rather that he himself screws up everything and that’s why, after resisting the ‘power pull’ of the Blade, he has accepted using it to kill Abaddon. He said to Gadreel that he was going to pay for what he did to Sam and to Kevin. That does not, in and of itself, means that he has shirked any blame for the role he played in the possession.
And, quite frankly, I don’t see Dean really needing to ask for forgiveness. He saved Sam’s life. He did nothing evil and, even this season, under the influence of the Blade, hasn’t really done anything irredeemable. He hasn’t listened to or chosen a demon over Sam. He hasn’t slurped blood from a nurse and killed her. The worst thing Dean has done is snark at Sam for being ungrateful that he saved his life, killed a serial killer, killed a werewolf step-mom and a couple of her kin, and some vampires, and saved Sam in a couple of bad situations. Nothing terrible in my book. Why should Dean ask forgiveness for saving Sam’s life? Sure, he would do it again. That is Dean, and that is Dean’s character.
How Dean treated Sam at the beginning of S8 because he didn’t bother to spend 3 seconds looking for his brother? Dean should have dumped Sam then and there. Dean had a right to be hurt, and Sam should have, at least, shown some remorse about not looking. Instead, he bitched at Dean for having a vampire help him get out. Instead, he leaves the one person behind who knew how to get out of Purgatory (Dean – Taxi Driver), goes off to save Bobby himself, and Dean had to ask a friend to let him kill him so that he could save Sam. Did Sam change his mind about Benny even after that? Not really. He said he might have been wrong – the end.
Personally, I continue to see a one-sided brother relationship. I haven’t seen any devotion to Dean on Sam’s part, other than looking for him when he thinks he is in trouble. A working partner would do that same thing. He’s a little worried about Dean. Aren’t we all. But I haven’t seen Sam so much as try to bring up the MoC issue; except once, and he backed off real quick when Dean came back at him. The reason Sam can’t bring it up is because he has cashed in his brother card. He holds no sway over Dean these days, any more so than anyone else would.
Re: “intentions mean nothing (well, they mean nothing if you’re Sam).”
There is so much of how you view the show that I disagree with. How Dean treated Sam at the beginning of S5 was because Sam chose something they spent their lives hunting, something just like what killed their mother and sent the Winchesters on their path, something that every single friend (Pam, Bobby, and even God’s prophet) told him not to do, over Dean.
Intentions mean everything. S5 clearly showed that Sam’s issue was the feeling of power and control. It had nothing to do with him thinking he was the only one who could stop Lilith or the Apocalypse. It was the power and the wrong choices that was Sam’s undoing — not listening to anyone except Ruby, who was telling him what he wanted to hear.
How any viewer can say that they like both brothers equally and overlook those actions by Sam which drove the story is beyond me.
@33- I agree that what Dean did was wrong and that he needs to see that and apologize to Sam, but how did he hurt Sam, at least physically? If you believe that he hurt Sam emotionally, and I agree with that assessment,then it seems you would also agree that Sam not bothering to look for Dean last season hurt Dean also, and that Sam should have apologized for that, but he didn’t, and he also refused to see that he did anything wrong, just as Dean is refusing to see that he did anything wrong this time.And although Sam’s actions hurt Dean, Sam also got the desired affect out of it, he was living his normal non-hunting life. I have a hard time understanding the double standard.
@31, CaseyT, I didn’t think about the fact that the producers would be in Hollywood while the boys are in LA, but it’s time a couple of those producers were on set. Maybe the long distance “disconnect” accounts for some of the problems with the series. Sometimes it seems the writers/producers don’t even watch SN.
As for “Bloodlines,” if that show is ever adopted by the CW, I’ll know the network has finally reached rock bottom.
CaseyT, I did some checking and found out that James Roday and Dule Hill of “Psyche” were given co-producer status after only two years on the air; “the following year they were bumped up to producer.”
This is what Chris Henze, the executive producer, had to say: “In our case, it really is warranted. Our show shoots 1500 miles from Los Angeles, where our writers room and key creatives air, so we rely heavily on James and Dule and their sensibilities. They’re on set, living through good, bad, and risky decisions that must be made on the fly. We have excellent producers in our director and line producer, who serve some of the same functions, but you can always count on James or Dule…because they’re in virtually every scene. They make calls, get involved with casting, they’re our eyes and ears on the ground.”
So WHY aren’t the 2 Js producers by now? One reason might be money; SN is a low-budget show, and there might not be enough to pay them–but, considering that every Tom, Dick, and Henrietta writer has producer status, I don’t know why there wouldn’t be. Another possibility is that the 2Js just don’t want the added work and responsibility–especially now that they have families. Besides, both of them practically grew up in the business, and they’ve been extremely successful. They might just want to try something completely new–like starting up a wine company.
CaseyT, just one more thing. From what I’ve read, actors love appearing on SN because the show has such a happy set. The two Js are chiefly responsible for that. They make everyone feel welcome and, as we know, they have a close, family-like relationship with the crew. If the boys were to become producers, “eyes and ears on the ground,” that relationship might be jeopardized. They’d represent the “bosses”–heck, they’d be bosses themselves. I doubt the Js would want to risk distancing themselves from their friends.
So, maybe Jared and Jensen have been offered but turned down co-producer status. After all, their values have always been in the right place.
@32 Sheri-I am with you Sheri- Dean has absolutely NOTHING to apologize for. He did what Dean does. He saves family-period. This time was way different than any other time that he saved Sam in that Dean thought this was a win win situation. Sam gets healed, Zeke gets healed-and nobody’s life or soul is lost. He thought everyone gets out unscathed. That it went wrong and Zeke (which cas said was a good angel) was actually Gadreel was NOT Deans fault. That Gadreel killed Kevin -the only fault Dean had in that was that he should have and could have told Kevin what was going on. There was no angel in Kevin to wipe his memory or to put him to sleep. So Kevins death is indirectly Deans fault.
If JA & JP wanted to be producers, they WOULD be producers. More than likely, the filming schedule makes it impossible for them to handle both jobs as producer and actor.
ALSO, if they do become producers, it’s likely we’ll have more Sam & Dean-light episodes (like “Weekend at Bobby’s” and “The Man Who Would Be King”). That’s not necessarily a bad thing. If the episode is good, I won’t mind an occasional shift away from Sam & Dean, nor would I mind a few more recurring characters.
@San-the possession wasn’t “hurting” Sam at all. It was giving him time lapses that he became aware of in the conversation you sited. But it wasn’t “hurting” him physically.As we both know Zeke/Gad wasn’t hurting Sam at all. Gadreel continued to heal Sam – he wasn’t burning him out. That was just Dean voicing a fear that he had. In truth it wasn’t happening. As for your s9e13 quote – that was stupid writing. Do you really think a hunter could have killed Sam with Gadreel possessing him. If anything Sam was immortal to a degree. Gadreel NEVER would have let ANYBODY hurt Sam. Sam was his vessel. Why and how could that have happened??? It couldn’t have. Stupid writing for an effect that didn’t fly with me- It made Sam seem desperate to make a point about why he was mad. When imo – there was no reason to be as upset as he was/is. Pissed at Dean for the possession because he wanted to die-OK but he knows his brother- he knows Dean-if there is a way -will ALWAYS save family. Especially Sam.
In fact I think Dean has learned thru the years -you only save family if it isn’t a detriment to himself or whoever it is he is trying to save. This possession thing showed that. I really don’t think Dean would have saved Sam if it cost Dean or Sam something. It wasn’t costing anything -so he went with it.
@ San Summer: I don’t think Dean has anything to apologize for. Sam lived, and I would say that that is a plus for Sam, as much as it is for Dean. And, I would say that the Samapologists would have a mega fit if Sam were written out of the show; although they might have enjoyed another version as Sam as a ghost.
I would say that it is not in Dean’s DNA not try to keep Sam alive and Sam knows that. Sam admitted that he knows that, even as he was making the decision that being brothers was the root of all the Winchesters problems. Sam has never said that it was the possession that he’s ticked off about per se. What he has said twice is that it is a brother (family) thing and he holds Dean responsible for that apparently, because Dean is selfish and has never done anything right during his whole adult (I guess) life. Everything that Dean has ever done, according to Sam, has been to benefit himself.
I would say that an apology was not necessary, given the last Dean heard from conscious Sam, he had chosen to live. I would also say that Dean and Gadreel’s deal was the real thing. Gad did as he agreed to do and only changed his mind when he thought he could be a big damned hero and recover his name by helping Metatron. Given that Cas fell for both Crowley and Metatron’s manipulations, I don’t think Dean can be held accountable for not anticipating that Metatron would try such a thing with Gadreel or for other people (including angels) making bad choices. The Winchesters were not even aware of the fact Metatron had met with Gad until two episodes ago.
Dean lies. He admits that. All hunters lie, including Sam, every day of the week. Sam thought lying to Jessica was keeping her safe. As far as I know, he was never truthful with Amelia either. Dean lied to Sam in this instance for the same reason, he thought he was keeping him safe until he was healed.
In 9.10, Gadreel had just revealed himself and what Dean was referring to is that if he could not get Gad out of Sam, then he would be willing to kill Sam to keep Gad from possessing him forever. Dean knew that Sam would want that.
In 9.13, that was a stupid line by a writer who had, once again, apparently not seen prior episodes…and a stupid excuse at that. Why would another hunter be aware of Gadreel possessing Sam? Cas wasn’t when they were having drinks in a bar, and he knows the Winchesters better than anyone. And I do believe that if another hunter tried to kill Sam while Gad was in him, the same thing would have happened to them that happened to the demons who tried to kill Sam.
As far as “life as an angel condom,” Sam did not have a problem agreeing to wear Lucifer as an angel condom to accomplish putting Luci back in the cage. Dean letting Gad possess Sam to heal him shouldn’t be seen any differently than that, as far as I am concerned.
@ animal #40: Kevin’s death was a consequence of a decision made; yes, but Dean did and still does accept full responsibility for his role in that.
I would also add that the only person (thing) that has not had any consequence to their actions is Crowley, and he has done terrible things. That character just keeps skating by.
Sam, on the other had and has a long history of not accepting responsibility for his actions. I point specifically to one of the most recent — using a crazy hunter and then leaving said crazy hunter in a vampire nest in the middle of the night and stealing his car to boot. Sam never, ever acknowledged his role in that, or even that he was wrong about Benny.
Or how about the difference in leaving Dean in Purgatory, without spending a minute to consider he might not be dead, but zooming off for a 12-hour drive while leaving said crazy hunter in said vampire nest to go help his girlfriend when he thought it was her that called for help. Meanwhile, as far as Sam knew, Dean was handcuffed to a radiator — maybe conscious or maybe still unconscious.
So, no, I do not see Dean having to apologize to Sam.
@ animal #42 and #43. Oops, typed this before I saw your post. As you see, I agree with you.
I also agree that both Dean and Sam have learned that if there is a cost to either of them connected to the possession. The cost came when Gad broke the deal, and Dean is not responsible for other’s choices…even though he has spent several years cleaning up the mess others have made.
@35- That doesn’t address what else I ask. Ok, we both agree that Dean’s actions were very wrong, and he did hurt Sam emotionally(I’m still not sure about the physical part) and Dean owes him an apology.
But Sam just immediately assumed Dean was dead in season 8 and didn’t spend one second even trying to investigate if that was in fact true or what could have possibly happened to him. Dean was supposedly fighting for his life every minute for a whole year(physical) and then when he got back he discovered the beloved little brother he assumed had tried to save him/investigate had in fact done nothing(emotional), and took a resentful attitude towards him. Wouldn’t all that also be Sam’s actions hurting Dean and shouldn’t Sam have also apologized? I find it a double standard that some fans loudly vocalize how wrong Dean was this season and how much he owes Sam a huge apology(which again, I AGREE with) yet see absolutely nothing wrong with how Sam treated Dean or his actions last season.
The discussion in the car was more about referencing the trust that got broken. Sam started out by giving his trust wholly to Dean which indirectly allowed Gadreel to possess Sam because Dean had approved of it. Sam was left feeling:
“Why does it have to be something else? It’s always something else. We’re always scraping to find some other explanation when maybe it is… just me. — I’m a mess, Dean. You know it. And sometimes, I feel like maybe I’m never gonna actually be all right. — Or this is… just the way I am.”
His trust got further used when Sam shared how freaked out he was getting by the state of his mind and Dean said straight to his face: “Would I lie?”
As far as Gadreel eventually burning Sam out, I think that was a legitimate concern.
Michael [to Dean]: It could be worse. You know, unlike my brothers, I won’t leave you a drooling mess when I’m done wearing you.
Michael revealed he was an exception to the rule and even so it was probably only because he wanted Dean to say yes.
9.13 demonstrated how Sam felt about the idea of getting killed while being possessed by an angel — something that Dean was planning to do before Cas changed his mind.
Agree Sheri-infact I don’t think we will ever see Dean save Sam or vice a versa if it costs something to either one of them or to an innocent ever again. That’s why I don’t think it will be Sam saving Dean from the Mark and its effects. I think it will solely be on Dean to save himself. Probably next season.
I am hoping that the consequences that are talked about in the finale description are : Cas ends up locked in heaven with Metatron and all the other angels, Dean gives in to the blade 100% which leaves him in a sorta of a constant kill mode, and Sam maybe is hurt badly by Metatron. As for Abaddon-dead in s9e21 unfortunately. Hoping not but from what I have read she is not in any episode again this season. I want to see Dean kill her but I wanted more of a story between the two characters . Like maybe her trying to use him like Magnus wanted to use him. But it doesn’t look like it will go that way. Hopefully I am wrong about that.
Yes San -Sam was trusting Dean to save his life when he said yes-Dean did just that. The fact that Sam was having concerns about the way he was feeling and the time lapses is understandable. But it was something that Dean could not do anything about. Those feelings Sam had was because his body was healing due to Zeke/Gadreel healing him. He was getting better and stronger-maybe even fighting off a little of Gadreels control. In that Sam was starting to question those things he became aware of. And again-San – how could Dean have told Sam anything about what was happening to him?? It took a spell (albeight it didn’t work because Gadreel caught on to it) that could have separated Sam from Gadreel long enough for Dean to tell Sam about Gadreel. A spell was needed SanSummer for Dean to let Sam know. A trust imo was never broken by Dean- The “would I lie” was Dean trying to put Sam at ease. Because Sam was so worked up about how he was feeling. And remember-when Sam said “Why does it have to be something else…….
Dean tried to tell Sam the truth then-but Gad took over Sam.
Imo-no trust was broken-Dean didn’t hurt Sam emotionally or physically. Just don’t agree with this premise at all. But then again I don’t agree with a lot of things that are posted here. lol. We all see and interpret what we want I guess. This show is good for ALOT of interpretation and reading between the lines because the writers suck at writing a coherent and clear script.
@47 animal, I don’t know. If Dean does kill Abaddon in 9.21, what do you think will happen then? His whole point in getting the MOC was to ice the Queen of Hell. With her dead, would he put down the blade? Or will he have become so addicted to its power, he’ll keep hold of it. And if he does refuse to toss it away, what excuse will he give? Who will he determine to kill next? Crowley? That’s a kill Sam’s been wanting him to make, so will Sam encourage Dean to go after the King of Rotten? Or will it be Metatron Dean will want to hunt down? Killing him would be very much in the interest of Castiel and his followers, so will Castiel want Dean to use the blade to kill his enemy?
Believe me, I DO want Abaddon gone; I’m tired of her. I just don’t know if the writers will want Dean to dispose of her this season. So many complications could arise if he does.
JT,JJA–I know I read some recent comment by Jared that linked producer status to going beyond 10.(That would mean to me that it hasn’t been offered)Didn’t expect that from Jared; I’d think it would mean more to Jensen who seems to be preparing a career behind the camera. I don’t think with as many producers as this series has that it would require all that much more time on their part. However, I agree they might not want to do it, but strange that it hasn’t been at least offered. I don’t think we’ll ever know, Jared always tries to put the best light on things; he recently tweeted that the Bloodlines pilot was great–reason he has been successful in the business, go along, get along; burn no bridges.
Sheri–still disagree about Sam’s motivation for following Ruby. Yes, he enjoyed the power and control, rare individual who would not. He also thought he could play Ruby and did not agree to go after Lilith until the fake call. That Sam, and Sam only, caused the apocalypse was added in 5 when Castiel was added as a regular and could no longer be the villian he was at the end of 4 so he became a friend and Sam took the entire rap for what Castiel set up.
Sam also saw Dean as weak in 4; have to agree with him. Dean was kissing angel butt and preaching caution and avoiding conflict (that from a hunter?)And, Dean never tried talking to Sam about the issue; he just barked big brother orders. Sam’s actions were not due to love of power and control alone. He always distrusted the power and compared to his control-freak father and brother, he has been decidedly more accepting of people than controlling.
When I have to go to Tumblr for my bibro love, it’s a bad day (went to one of my other regular fan sites, similar discussion actually). I really can see both brothers’ perspectives on this. While the conflict has dragged, I can empathize with it, and hope they find a way to work it out. I think both Dean and Sam have lessons to learn and apologies to make this year. Last year was stupidly one-sided, so it seems the writers have learned a thing or two as well.
@Roxi (24). Yeah, I think they had to shoot him up with about half the pharmacy :p. Especially if we extrapolate on Dean’s alcohol-handling abilities (mentioned before as an aspect of “CW ointment” where the brothers don’t really respond to illness and injury the way regular people do), if both brothers can metabolize like crazy, keeping Sam drugged up would be a helluva job. Hope he never needs surgery!
@JT and Casey: I would love to see the J’s as producers, as I think they would be more protective of their characters and relationship than the rest of the creative team. If several of the producers are working out of LA, that actually makes a lot of sense about the issues Show has had the last couple of seasons. Namely, a few plot points that looked good on paper that clunked in execution. Those stories may work in the writers’ rooms or over conference calls, but need to be overseen on the ground level as well.
While the J’s stay perky about whatever story is currently running, there are hints every now and then that one actor of the other isn’t a fan of a specific storyline and kind of has to roll with it (JA was less than enthused with early S6 Dean, and JP has mentioned more than once that early S8 Sam was OOC). That said, I can also imagine there would be both time and money issues with the J’s taking on producer tasks as well. Like Casey, I’d be okay with occasional “lite” episodes, or Sam or Dean centric episodes giving one actor a break (or time to attend to producer-related tasks), if the writing was tighter with less drama, and true to the characters. With good stories, the brothers don’t need to be in every scene together to carry it.
I know JT-All the questions you pose are good ones But we still have the Cain saying to Dean about killing Abaddon and then Cain will come to Dean so he can kill him thing. (wow what a run on sentence that was lol) There is that. I don’t think Dean puts the blade down after the Abaddon kill since in s9e23 he is still dealing with the effects of the blade per description of the episode. Maybe Sam takes the blade from Dean after the Abaddon kill. I am hoping somebody-Crowley or Metatron tries to use Dean for their own benefit. It would make for a great story But who knows. It looked like Crowley was going to use Dean and the blade for something so maybe it will go that way. I am excited to see where that goes. I love Abaddon (Alaina) I was hoping she would stay around. The reason I think she dies in s9e21 is because Alaina tweeted a picture of herself with a harness on that goes under her cloths. You use a harness if you are going to get thrown around. Thrown around usually means you are weaker than your enemy. So I think she dies unfortunately.
On a completely different topic- There is a contestant on American Idol (no I don’t watch it I saw a write up of the last episode) whose name is Jessica of all things who loves Jensen Ackles and watches Supernatural. Wouldn’t it be cool if the SPN fandom for one week votes for this girl??? She seems to be a favorite anyway but I just thought it was cool that SPN and Jensen got a mention on American Idol.
@44 Sheri. “I would say that an apology was not necessary, given the last Dean heard from conscious Sam, he had chosen to live.”
Yet Dean also told Sam he knew that Sam had been ready. Sam is alive but a lot of things happened to him along the way including what he was afraid of (Sam: Nobody can reverse it, nobody can deal it away… and nobody else can get hurt because of me.)
Dean: I know I took a piece of you in the process, and for that…
Would it really be that bad if he finished the sentence and apologized to Sam?
Re: “Sam has never said that it was the possession that he’s ticked off about per se.”
I’d say this counts:
Sam: You decide to trick me into being possessed by some… psycho angel?
Re: “Dean lied to Sam in this instance for the same reason, he thought he was keeping him safe until he was healed.”
More like Gadreel gave Dean the opportunity to lie and Dean took it when he found out it was possible because he thought he couldn’t let Sam make a true decision about his own life.
Re: “As far as “life as an angel condom,” Sam did not have a problem agreeing to wear Lucifer as an angel condom to accomplish putting Luci back in the cage. Dean letting Gad possess Sam to heal him shouldn’t be seen any differently than that, as far as I am concerned.”
Well, what matters is how Dean saw the situation. If he knew that getting Sam possessed so he could be healed is comparable to Sam letting an angel possess him so he could try to stop the apocalypse, why didn’t Dean tell Sam what was going on?
@45 roxi. “That doesn’t address what else I ask.”
You wrote in #33: “Sam not bothering to look for Dean last season hurt Dean also, and that Sam should have apologized for that, but he didn’t, and he also refused to see that he did anything wrong, just as Dean is refusing to see that he did anything wrong this time.And although Sam’s actions hurt Dean, Sam also got the desired affect out of it, he was living his normal non-hunting life.”
I could see that we were in totally different places. Describing the situation as “Sam not bothering to look” makes it seem like Sam was just so lazy or indifferent and saying “Sam also got the desired affect out of it, he was living his normal non-hunting life” makes it seem like it was something Sam set out to have the minute he lost Dean when in fact Sam found something months after his world had imploded.
@48 animal. “Those feelings Sam had was because his body was healing due to Zeke/Gadreel healing him. He was getting better and stronger-maybe even fighting off a little of Gadreels control.”
I don’t think that was established on the show. Dean approved of Gadreel erasing Sam’s memories which kept happening because Dean talked to the angel sometimes even prompting the angel to take control. First Gadreel started healing Sam so Sam could be awake etc. but then he started to take more from Sam:
Dean: You’re sick.
Sam: No, I’m not sick. I’m just, um — I feel like my battery can’t recharge.
Gadreel made himself number one as evidenced by how Sam was still “all duct tape and safety pins inside” in 9.08 and needed healing in 9.10-9.11 even after Gadreel had already left. Dean also (understandably) put Cas and Charlie before Sam pushing back Sam’s progress.
Dean: No. You can bring her back like you did with Cas.
Gadreel: I cannot keep doing that.
Dean: Why the hell not?!
Gadreel: I am barely back to half-strength, Dean. Every time I use my power, it weakens me, which means I will have to stay in your brother longer than you want — longer than we both want.
Not getting your point San- Take your last point first. (by the way I wish you would number your quotes it would be easier to reference them in a discussion rather than copy pasting or retyping them-sorry -just trying to make it easier to talk)
The discussion about Charlie-Gadreel didn’t say it would kill Sam to bring Charlie back – he just said it weakens him and it would take longer to heal Sam. Not seeing the problem here. He wasn’t putting Charlie before Sam -he asked Gadreel to save her. I am sure you KNOW that if Gadreel said healing her would kill Sam -Dean wouldn’t have said to heal her. And Dean NEVER asked Gadreel to save Cas – Gadreel did that on his own. So Dean didn’t put Cas before Sam at all. He was going to let Cas stay dead actually it seemed to me.
I don’t think it was established that Dean approved of Gadreel erasing of Sams memories. Yea Dean asked for Gadreel to help find Cas so he called him forward but again – that didn’t hurt Sam. The reason I said he was getting stronger was because Gadreel was indeed healing Sam-if he wasn’t Sam never would have been able to dispel Gadreel like he did. Gadreel was holding up his side of the bargain. Dean had qualms about it but he new he couldn’t do anything about it until of course he got the spell from Kevin.
Anyway we are never at this point -8 months later – going to agree or change the others mind about if Dean was right or wrong in what he did. At this point it doesn’t matter anyway. I am more interested in the MOC story. Sam is OK and more like Sam of the early years now – Dean is badass/kickass mf- so I am happy. I am liking both bros again. Peace! Hating the fact that this next episode will most likely be a Cas centered story but I could fast forward thru those and get to the good parts with Sam and Dean and Crowley and Abaddon. I hate the angels – all of them. They need to go.
@ animal: I’ve been watching AI this season and had to rewind it to make sure that was the name I heard. They asked each contestant to name their “crush,” and Jessica said that. The rest of them named people I never heard of. Great plug for JA, and Ryan Seacrest, the host, was aware of who that was.
@ CaseyT #50: Sam deluded himself into thinking he could play Ruby. He couldn’t, as seen by his desperation when he was out of demon blood and trying to get in touch with Ruby and then drank the blood of the demon he killed in front of Dean (The Rapture). The demon blood turned into Sam’s addiction (and that is the story I am afraid the writers are telling this season with Dean and his ‘addiction’ to the power of the Blade — i.e., Crowley’s addiction to human blood as a parallel to Dean), but the whole point of War’s talk with Sam and Sam deciding to walk away from hunting was because Sam finally realized that the problem wasn’t Dean, or Ruby, or the demon blood — it was the anger he had built up inside of him that drove the his lust for power:
Save your protests for your brother. I can see inside your head. And man, it is one-track city in there. Blood, blood, blood. Lust for power. Same as always. You want to be strong again. But not just strong. Stronger than everybody. Good intentions—quick slide to hell, buddy boy.
Later in that episode, Sam tells Dean:
Just, now I realize something. I don’t trust me either.
From the minute I saw that blood, only thought in my head…and I tell myself it’s for the right reasons, my intentions are good, and it, it feels true, you know? But I think, underneath…I just miss the feeling. I know how messed up that sounds, which means I know how messed up I am. Thing is, the problem’s not the demon blood, not really. I mean, I, what I did, I can’t blame the blood or Ruby or…anything. The problem’s me. How far I’ll go. There’s something in me that…scares the hell out of me, Dean. In the last couple of days, I caught another glimpse…
I’m in no shape to be hunting. I need to step back, ’cause I’m dangerous. Maybe it’s best we just…go our separate ways.
That was the whole point of Good God, Y’all — Sam realizing it was him and not any of the excuses he had told himself.
The anger, which fueled Sam’s need to seek power and be better than anyone else was followed up later in S5 with Sam Interrupted and, again, in Abandon All Hope:
That’s good, Sam. You keep fanning that fire in your belly. All that pent-up rage. I’m gonna need it.
Cas blamed Sam for the Apocalypse; yes, but Dean always admitted his role in starting it. Dean told Sam several times that Sam wasn’t the only person who had a hand in it. And, yes, the writers handwaved Cas’ role in it — which was a BIG role — just to bring Misha onboard again.
I do not ever remember Dean kissing angel butt in S4. Dean distrusted angels and, in fact, was the one who turned Cas away from his one-tracked following of Zachariah and Uriel. Cas was even sent to angel prison for getting too close to Dean.
You think Dean is a control freak and barks orders; whereas, I think Dean is a leader and barks orders. Sam certainly is not a leader, and he does not want to be. Sam has never, ever fully committed to hunting, let alone want to be the leader and make the tough decisions. In fact, we still to this day do not know if Sam has finally committed to hunting, or if he just hasn’t hit another dog and met a girl yet.
Two other comments on this leadership -vs- being bossy. First, Dean is the big brother, is said to be a born hunter, will always choose hunting, and has more years of experience than Sam does. I think the show has always put emphasis on the big brother/little brother thing.
Secondly, since the Pilot, the action has never started until Dean arrives on the scene or makes a decision to jump in with both feet. No other character has ever started the action; it always starts with Dean. Sam, as I recall, even in S8, still wants a normal life, married and two kids. He views his role in the supernatural world completely differently than Dean does, which means he is never going to lead Dean or anybody else in the supernatural world. That does not make Sam Dean’s lackey, as some viewers think. That is simply the difference in the two characters.
@45- Sam DIDN’T bother to lift a finger to even try to investigate what might have happened to Dean. That’s not me saying he was lazy or bad or anything else of the sort, that was what happened, a pure fact, I didn’t make it up just to say something against Sam. And it DID hurt Dean, but some of you feel like Dean should have just accepted it like it was no big deal.
For both of them, their actions had a desired effect: Sam could stop hunting and live a normal life,(maybe he didn’t plan it that way but it still worked out) and Dean saved Sam from dying. But only Dean should be condemned because the results he got came more immediately?
However you choose to frame it, in the end the fact is that you and some others see what Dean did as wrong and feel he should apologize to Sam for it, as I do as well, but you refuse to see Sam’s actions in season 8 as anything he did wrong or that he should have apologized to Dean for. Sam gets understanding while Dean gets condemnation.
To me, this is a double standard.
In my eyes, they BOTH did wrong to eachother over the course of the series,, they BOTH hurt eachother terribly, and they BOTH owe eachother a huge apology. Despite what anybody tries to accuse me of, I am NOT against Sam, and I DO give him credit for his many great personal traits. And I also do NOT defend everything Dean does or give him free passes or excuses for the wrong things he does or his more less than desirable personal traits. But this notion that only one brother has done all the wrong over the course of the show to the other brother is just completely false, whether the accusation is against either Sam or Dean. And that unfortunately what I’m seeing here in both your posts and Sheri’s.
So with that in mind, it’s clear that we’ll never agree on this issue so we should just let it go.
In @26 I asked you a question, I didn’t make a statement. By saying he ‘should’ be able to do it more than implies that you think he won’t do it. Otherwise you would be more certain in your belief that he will do it.
In @21 you made a statement “So, you believe that Gadreel deserves Sam’s forgiveness more than Dean does, or at least that’s what it sounds like. Well, I very much disagree with THAT assessment.” There’s a difference between a question and a statement.
I don’t believe that Dean has forgiven Sam. He has ‘forgiven’ him in terms of having put it on the back burner, being sick of the fighting or whatnot but true forgiveness, I don’t believe he has because in order to forgive him he needs to be able to understand why he did it. Dean clearly doesn’t because he focuses more on how Sam’s actions affect him and not on why Sam did it in the first place. These are the ‘sins’ to Dean ie the ‘sin’ of choosing a demon over his own brother. However, Sam ‘chose’ a demon over his brother because he believed it was necessary to try and stop Lucifer rising. It’s the same as when Dean chose Crowley when Sam asked him not to. If it’s betrayal when Sam does it then it stands to reason that it’s betrayal when Dean does it. However, it’s never sold as that because Dean doesn’t see it as that.
Dean didn’t believe that he did anything wrong with Amy so there was nothing for Sam to ‘forgive’. In fact, he put what he did on Sam. Sam is the one who apologised on that occasion.
In relation to fansites, they tend to focus on the ‘betrayal’ more than the freeing of Lucifer. However, you can’t have one without the other. Without ‘choosing’ Ruby there would have been no Apocalypse, at least not then.
Dean feels guilty for Kevin’s death. However, that guilt is negated by him saying that he’d take the same course of action again. Taking the same course of action means being okay with the same consequences. So, like I said, Dean might feel guilty but he doesn’t feel guilty enough to change his behaviour.
It can no longer be said that Dean lives his entire life for Sam. Realistically it couldn’t be said in the first place. Dean just lives his life. Sam is an important part of that, as Dean is in Sam’s life. Being with Sam makes him happy, so what he does he does for that. However, Dean does not do what he does for Sam. Dean hunts because he likes it. He doesn’t hunt for Sam (if he was living his life ‘for Sam’ then he would do what Sam wants and get out of hunting). He didn’t bring him back (either of the two times) for Sam. He did because it is what he wanted, not what Sam wanted. Sam would never have wanted what Dean did therefore it can’t be said that Dean did it for Sam.
Dean does have happiness outside of Sam. He finds it in hunting, in drinking, with Castiel, with girls, with Ben and Lisa.
Could you please point out where Sam was resentful of Dean when Dean came back from Purgatory?
Also, please point out where Gadreel said that he never intended to leave Sam’s body. It would be remarkably silly of Gadreel to possess Sam with the sole intention of staying there, especially knowing what he and his brother are capable of. There was no talk of Gadreel healing Sam quickly. On the contrary he said that there was much work to be done, work that was slowed down because Dean kept asking Gadreel to help him out. And if Gadreel did intend on staying in Sam permanently then why heal him (and he was almost healed when Gadreel was expelled) at all?
I don’t blame Dean for everything, I ‘blame’ him for what he does. And I will continue to ‘blame’ him until he acknowledges what he did and seeks to make attrition for it and not simply handwave it off because he feels all woobie.
@44. Dean has, more than once, been okay with Sams death. Hell, more than once he’s endorsed it. He was okay with him ‘dying human’ in the panic room, he was planning on driving himself and his ‘beautiful mind’ brother off a cliff in the wake of Dean’s death. He was willing to kill Sam/Gadreel, so Dean DNA isn’t as hardwired as you like to make out.
I disagree (with the shirking responsibility). It’s taken the same pattern as it has many times in the past. He starts by feeling guilty, then it’s not addressed for a while, and then it’s put on someone else. Dean acknowledged once that he played a role in starting the Apocalypse and even since then it’s been all Sam (including up to last season). He’s never accepted responsibility for keeping Benny from Sam (and why didn’t he just tell him? If he trusted Benny as much as he wanted Sam to trust Benny then why not just trust him?) and now it’s wholly Sam who is wrong because Dean said it. He didn’t accept responsibility for not trying to get Castiel out of Purgatory, despite believing he left him there and that was never brought up. The text message was put on Sam. He too believed someone was dead when they weren’t and that was never touched upon on the show. He felt guilty for Amy but then put the responsbility for his actions on someone else (in that case Sam). The same thing is happening here.
You don’t think that having someone possessed, twice, despite knowing they would never want it, is wrong? Okay then!!
It wasn’t just the ‘3 seconds looking for his brother’ aspect, it was the whole thing. Sam told him it wasn’t the girl, Dean fixated on the girl. Sam told him that he imploded, Dean ignored that. Dean was critical of Sam for people dying while he was out of hunting, but there was no mention (and never will be) of the people who died while Dean was out of hunting. He holds things against Sam for years, things that he has long atoned for.
Re the ‘he leaves the one person behind who knew how to get out of Purgatory'; it was a trial, a trial that Sam was doing. If Dean did it as well and if they were successful, then the result might be not count.
I too see a one-sided brother relationship. I see Sam’s love for Dean in respecting his wishes, and doing what he believes is best for Dean, not for Sam. I see Dean’s love in taking away Sam’s autonomy and his right to have a say in what happens with his own body. And Sam has never held any sway over Dean, it’s not just these days. Dean hasn’t listened to Sam for a hell of a long time. When Sam brings up something Dean ignores it, or mishears it. So it’s just as well that it was Sam that was doing the trials and not Dean because if it was Sam who was asking Dean to live for him then the gates of hell would be long closed.
Sam chose trying to stop the Apocalypse over Dean. In season 5, Dean did the same thing with trying to stop the Apocalypse over Sam (via going to say yes to Michael).
S4 also showed that it wasn’t just the feeling of power and control, it was also about trying to save lives. It’s why he started drinking blood in the first place. He stopped when Dean asked him to, and then went back drinking it when Liliths role in the Apocalypse came to light. Was getting revenge against Lilith also on the agenda? Yes, but that is also what the Winchesters do. They spend their lives getting revenge.
And his actions aren’t being overlooking. Your interpretation just isn’t being agreed with.
Re: “The discussion about Charlie-Gadreel didn’t say it would kill Sam to bring Charlie back – he just said it weakens him and it would take longer to heal Sam. Not seeing the problem here.”
I didn’t say it would have killed Sam. It pushed back Sam’s progress.
As for Cas, Dean put him and Charlie on the same level in 9.04 as evidenced by that quote.
Re: “I don’t think it was established that Dean approved of Gadreel erasing of Sam’s memories.”
Dean: So, what he does – what, is he gonna feel you inside, triaging his spleen?
Gadreel: He will not feel me, no. There is no reason for Sam to know I’m in here at all.
Dean: You’re joking. No, this is – this is too big.
Gadreel: And what will he do if you do tell him he is possessed by an angel?
Dean: Well, he’ll have to understand.
Gadreel: And if he does not? Without his acceptance, Sam can eject me at any time, especially with me so weak. And if Sam does eject me, he will die.
Dean: Then we keep it a secret for now. Or until Sam’s well enough that he doesn’t need an angelic pacemaker or I find a way to tell him. I – I… As for him being in a hospital, I’ll have to figure something out.
Gadreel: I can erase it all, if you like. He will not remember any of this.
-> The scene ends.
Then in the Impala
Sam: What the hell happened?
Dean: What do you remember?
Sam: The church, feeling like crap, the angels falling, and that’s it.
You wrote “That’s not me saying he was lazy or bad or anything else of the sort” but it sure sounds like “not bothering to look” is bad and not a neutral statement of what happened.
Dean tricked Sam into letting an angel possess him so he could stop Sam from going with Death although he thought there was no way in hell that Sam would let an angel possess him and that Sam would rather die. Sam’s world imploded when he lost Dean, he ran and eventually found something. Despite feeling the loss of his brother, he started to build a life and was not going on the road he had been before regarding deals etc. So I can’t see how that is getting the desired effect out of hurting Dean.
Sam wanting to make things up to Dean to the point of dying so he wouldn’t let Dean down is a huge “I’m sorry” moment. I’d like to think Dean let that go in the church when they hugged etc. but who knows. I didn’t expect him to bring up stuff from way back in the day. Sam could still say the words if it’s necessary, Sam has apologized to Dean before.
But I’m not sure why season 8 is brought up in a discussion about whether Dean should apologize for letting an angel possess Sam. There is a reason why Dean came close to saying he is sorry but didn’t despite how he had hurt Sam. Some think he should get there, some think he would be lowering himself if he did that?
@JT I’m also not a fan of Castiel and prefer demons than angles….. And if the show runners give Cass more time in d episode bcz people like him, then they should better think about it 9 years ago when d show started.. its not about who is more beloved, its about on whom the show depends and about who the show is… Bcz if v talk about the fans, then I am only the fan of Jensen Ackles and he’s d only reson y I watch d show even when its storyline is not going in the way I want to (to b very honest) but Jared owns equal role. In fact, his role is even more main than Jensen’s (I think)……..
So in short, Jensen and Jared should get more time on the show
60-Again, my statement that Sam should be able to forgive Dean if he could so easily forgive Cas is a response to those Dean haters who claim he should NEVER forgive Dean. Not once did I say I didn’t think he would but go ahead and continue to twist my words.
Dean continues to make Sam the top priority in his life despite the times Sam has hurt and and YES, betrayed him. If he had never forgiven him, he wouldn’t want to be around him at all. Not forgetting the hurt someone you love has caused you is not the same as not forgiving them.
Dean not hunting or hunting has nothing to do with looking after Sam and trying to protect him. And having an occasional one night stand or having a beer is not having a happy life outside of Sam. Dean was forced to give up any thought to any dreams he may have had in his youth of a life that may have made him happy, and now it’s too late. It was shown in season 8 that he still sees Sam getting out and having a normal life as the thing that will make HIM happy as well. Nothing for himself.But of course, you’re not gonna give him an once of credit for this.
As for Lisa and him not hunting that one year, you Dean detractors keep saying that, but the fact is that the ONLY reason Dean did any of that was because that’s what SAM wanted and made him promise to(and no, I’m not saying anything against Sam here.) Dean may have had some happy moments with Lisa, but he wasn’t living this great happy life like you claim. He had nightmares, drank like a fish, was clearly shown to be hurting over Sam, and oh yeah, he actually TRIED to figure out how to save him. He failed but at least he tried. Contrast that with Sam not even trying and leaving Kevin to fend for himself. If Sam was shown to have at least spent a second trying, and failed, nobody would have held that against him, and nobody would have expected him to mourn forever and not get on with his life. But there was no mourning shown. But you don’t think Sam betrayed Dean or owes him an apology here? And yes, he DID act resentful and pissy towards Dean, as if he was sorry he found him alive. Dean was a hardass prick about Sam not hunting and he should have let up, but Sam acted cold and unfeeling, to me and many others. This is not how you act towards the brother you thought was dead for a whole year, if anything, if he was truly convinced of that, then finding him alive should have made him even more happy. Instead, it seemed like he could barely stand him.
And your claim that Sam shows Dean his love by respecting him? Really? When he was going around in season 2 complaining about him to everybody, making him sound like a monster, and when he was telling Ruby, Chuck, and Dean himself how weak Dean was and that he was holding him back? And then blaming Dean for the fact that he chose Ruby, saying that he did it to get away from him. How is that taking responsibility for his actions?
Dean would have NOT ask or expected Sam to get him to stop the trials or to live for him, because that’s not how it has always worked. Dean sees only Sam’s life as valuable, his own as no worth or value. I wish he did see his life as valuable and worthy outside of existing almost exclusively to look after Sam.
Dean driving off a cliff with Sam was not a serious statement! Anybody could see he was lashing out there in frustration, and your gonna use that as an example?
You’re right about him being willing to let Sam die instead of being addicted to demon blood, but in the beginning of this season he wasn’t and Dean thought he could save him. It was still wrong, but it was a different situation.
Gadreel wasn’t in any hurry to leave Sam, and there was no indication that he would. And he’s an angel, so no, he wasn’t gonna worry about a couple
of hunters, he just needed initial access.
How the hell was Dean supposed to get Cas out? Kill a virgin for blood? Go through that whole ritual they tried in season 6 ( that went SO well)? Dean KNEW that there was nothing he could do, and he still agonized over it. I would feel differently if they had been something Dean could have done or if he didn’t already know there was nothing he could do, but in this case he did.
So Dean being ripped apart by hellhounds and being picked apart for 40 years on meat hooks in hell was all for himself. Just like giving up the once chance he ever had to have any normal happy life with Sonny. Yep, all for himself. The selfish bastard! Well, for being all about himself and doing everything just for his own happiness, Dean has got to be the most miserable, tragic character I’ve ever seen!
I’m sorry but reading through your posts I see nothing here but condemnation for Dean in every circumstance while you give Sam every benefit of the doubt, again, in every circumstance. Dean HAS done wrong things to Sam, and unlike you, I won’t excuse or condone them just because he’s my favorite. He gets off too much on killing. He enjoyed torturing souls. He broke the first seal and started the Apocalypse. And this season, he was VERY WRONG to take Sam’s choice away from him and to allow Gadreel to possess him, no matter whether or not he did it out of love( which I believe he did). But Sam has ALSO done wrong things to Dean.Choosing to betray Dean by going with Ruby had as much to do with selfish reasons as it did noble ones. And while Dean was wrong to kill Amy and hide it and to send his text,( which he did apologize for) Sam also betrayed Dean by just washing his hands of him in season 8, not even trying to figure out if he could be saved. He also betrayed Kevin. And the fact that he let Martin knock his brother out and handcuff him to a radiator, sicced mentally unstable Martin on Benny which ruined any chance he had of a life with his granddaughter as well as traumatizing HER life are all things SAM never owned up to or apologized for. But you continue to handwave and condone and excuse every and anything Sam has ever done while not giving Dean one once of understanding for anything, ever. So to me, my assessment stands, Sam is your favorite, so he can do no wrong, just like Dean is Sheri’s favorite, so he can do no wrong to her.
Well, no disrespect to either of you, but they have BOTH, betrayed and done wrong to eachother.
BOTH of them. Please stop acting like one brother is a piece of shit while the other brother is an untouchable saint, both characters are basically at the core good men, but both too, also have dark sides to their personalities, and are capable of and have done terrible things, to eachother and the world.
@61- Umm, I believe that I HAVE stated my belief, many times over now, that Dean’s actions this season were WRONG, and that he does owe Sam an apology and needs to see that what he did was wrong. Have you not been reading my posts?
Sam DIDN’T bother to look, or did I miss a huge part of season 8? It’s merely stating a fact. I certainly didn’t call him lazy. As for bad, well, yes, I DO believe that Sam’s actions towards Dean, last year were wrong, just like I believe Dean’s actions this year were wrong.
What that has to do with last year is that some of you who are so quick to call Dean out on his actions this year and insist he should apologize to Sam, and rightfully so, do a complete 180 when it comes to Sam’s actions last year, which to most fans were also wrong and merited an apology from Sam which never came. To me this is a double standard, condemning Dean while absolving Sam completely. But again, neither one of us is gonna change our view so why not just leave it at that.
@62- Quick clarification: When I say that Sam initially going with Ruby had some selfish motives behind it as well as noble ones, I am referring to just the initial going with her and drinking the demon blood.. The actual act of killing Lilith had nothing but noble and good intentions behind it. Sam believed he was doing the right thing and stopping Lucifer, not freeing him. So I stand by what I have always said, it was NOT Sam’s fault that he unknowingly freed Lucifer, and he should be forgiven for that and not have it held against him.
I also want to expand on the Cas situation.
Dean DID try to save Cas. He spent the entire year in Purgatory fighting his way through monsters, tearing up the place trying to find him. An when he did he insisted that he was not going to leave without him. It was later shown that not matter how hard Dean tried to grasp his hand, Cas willingly pulled away, saying that his will was stronger than Dean’s.
Dean knew there was no other way he could get him out or knowing all of the above he would have certainly tried. The only way he knew of was the ritual that required the blood of a Purgatory native( and how the hell was he gonna get that?) and the blood of an innocent virgin.(Shame that the whole taxidriver reaper thing didn’t happen until later).And knowing all this Dean still condemned himself for it.
I’ve seen this accusation against Dean all over the internet from those who condone Sam not trying to find Dean, but how much more obvious can it be that there is absolutely no similarity in the situations?This is NOT me making an excuse for Dean, although I’m sure I’ll get that accusation. This is me making an assessment off of the facts being shown. Had Dean gotten a clue that there might be another way, and THEN,had chosen not to even try to see if he could rescue Cas, then yes, I would be slamming his actions just as I have condemned his actions this season.
Dean’s apology was deliberately left hanging there.
I think the brothers came together in that church, Sam still remembered it even when he was possessed by Gadreel and Dean didn’t act like Sam not looking for him was still bothering him.
Now the question remains should Dean let Sam know he is sorry for what he did to Sam. It has nothing to do with season 8 unless Dean will turn around and say he still has a problem with what happened.
Re: “I certainly didn’t call him lazy.”
No, but in my original post I wrote that “’Sam not bothering to look’ makes it seem like Sam was just so lazy or indifferent” and it seems you agree with the indifferent part in #59: “Sam DIDN’T bother to lift a finger to even try to investigate what might have happened to Dean.”
@62 Warah, “it’s not about who is more beloved, it’s about on whom the show depend and about who the show is.” Absolutely spot on!
As I see it, SN began to lose its identity the moment Castiel was given his big Hollywood entrance through the doors of that barn in 4.1. At this point, Kripke’s original myth arc had wrapped up; he’d begun to lose interest in the show (partly because of Dawn’s pressures); and he was giving more and more control over to Gamble–a writer who once said she liked annoying Kripke by mocking “the never-ending love story of the Winchesters” (paraphrasing here). She certainly put an end to that so-called “love story.”
I’m not sure, but I strongly suspect “Castiel” was Gamble’s creature. (I read that she was the one who wanted to bring angels into the series, though Kripke originally objected.) Beginning with his first appearance, Castiel was given center stage with Dean while Sam was swept into the shadows. That night, the boards were overrun with freshly hatched “Cass” and Destiel fans, squealing over the new “love story” of the angel and the elder Winchester. Was this an accident? My guess is, no. In the barn scene, Gamble or Collins or someone had Castiel move close to Dean, speaking softly, looking in his eyes–insinuating himself with the lead in a way we wouldn’t expect to see on a show about two heterosexual, monster hunting brothers. From that point on, Gamble or Collins or both became bolder in their apparent attempt to replace Sam with the angel and feed Destiel fantasies. Castiel and Dean had quiet exchanges while Sam slept; Castiel sat and watched Dean sleep; Castiel would enter Dean’s dreams or stand at his bathroom door or spirit him from place to place–always speaking softly, his face in Dean’s. In the following seasons, the “jokes” began–not innocently bawdy, but astonishingly crude, tasteless jokes of a kind that had never before emerged from the mouth of Dean. Were producers or writers playing out their own Destiel fantasies? I don’t know. But the results were predictable. “Cass” worshippers were whipped into a frenzy by the show and by Collins–so much so that Kripke’s original SN was all but replaced by a series “about” a possibly “bi” hunter and his girlish angel.
As time passed, a subtle shift occurred. Castiel was given the dominant role: Dean–and Sam–became his lap dogs, actually being referred to as Castiel’s “pets.” The deus ex machina of the series, Castiel answered all questions, solved all problems, healed all wounds–heck! Baby herself became irrelevant. Who needed a car when an angel was there to instantly transport his pets through space and time? But even this wasn’t enough to let the audience know who SN was REALLY all about. So Castiel was turned into a majestic, Lucifer-like figure at war with his Father–confused, tragic, misled–given not only his very own episode narrated by Collins (something Sam has yet to see), but a myth arc that dominated much of S6 and 7. As for Bobby, well Gamble had no use for the Winchester’s loving “uncle” and fellow hunter in her Castiel-centered series. So she killed Bobby off–but only after turning him into a drunk and a parricide. (She utterly destroyed Kripke’s John as well, but I won’t go on about that.)
Anyway, like countless other people, I became thoroughly disgusted with Collins’ stardom and Gamble’s atrocious perversion of Kripke’s original series. Only when she and Dawn left was my interest restored. True, I criticize Carver and his writers, but I think he’s doing his best to bring the badly damaged SN back to what it once was, not only by focusing on the brothers and creating the series’ best myth arc in years, but also by using Castiel in the only way he should be used if at all–as a means of filling up time when the Js want fewer work days.
The series still has its problems; however, it’s clearly on the road to recovery, and for what he’s done to recapture SN’s identity, I’ll always be grateful to Carver.
It has been said many times, those that are only invested in one character and dislike the other one can make a case by sometimes twisting words and actions to suit what they believe – I personally don’t have a problem with people who only like one of the characters (talking Sam and Dean here) as long as they make it quite clear that is where they are coming from then I can read or skip, what really annoys me is those posters who spend hours trying to make a case for only one of the brothers to be in the right without understanding that this is a skewered viewpoint. As far as Castiel goes, I have said in the past that I am not invested in his character now but I did enjoy his introduction – that episode is one of my favourites and if people want to be Destiel fans I don’t need to be in their camp (play on words!) but I can leave them be just as Wincest – which has been going on much longer is not my bag but each to their own. Anyway what I am trying to say is that I agree that Castiel and the Angels are way past their sell by date, but Misha i.e. Castiel is very popular so I wish they had found a much better way than they have to keep him in the Winchester story. I am not grateful to Carver because of the Season 8 Sam issue, can’t believe it, won’t believe it and cannot agree with any of the Sam apologists on why – also I am not grateful to Carver for having the brothers relationship to be in such a bad place – I hate it, lazy writing i.e. cheaper and easier to write emotional episodes rather than good exciting ones.
Do any of you believe the “spoiler” “Crowley survives the season – Metatron kills Dean and Dean comes back as a demon and starts working for Crowley. S10 is about Sam saving Dean and opening the gates of Heaven”. I know a lot of people would like Dean to go totally dark, but I wouldn’t personally – too much of a change for the character.
Sheri–I see where you are coming from, but I think Sam was written very differently in 5 than 4 to accommodate the addition of Castiel as a regular in the cast. Despite Dean’s statement in Fallen Idols that many people caused the apocalypse, the thrust of the plot was the Sam caused the apocalypse and he had to apologize to everyone. Even Castiel put him down for it. The difference between 4 and 5 was that Castiel was added as a regular, and apparently as a result, Castiel’s destruction of Dean and Bobby’s efforts to detox Sam was ignored as if it didn’t happen. The fact that Castiel freed Sam to kill Lilith, knowing that would free Lucifer, was also simply ignored as if it did not happen. Castiel planned and made possible the freeing of Lucifer, and the sniveling hypocrite not only never admitted his role, he blamed Sam, and let others, including Dean, do that also.
Season 1-4 Dean or certainly Sam would never have considered Castiel a friend if either had known how that character manipulated Dean and set up Sam. I can only imagine Dean’s anger had he know what Castiel did when Castiel told Sam in Children Are Our Future “You made the wrong decision.” Castiel was added to the cast and his deeds in the immediate past had to be ignored if he was to be a friend of the Winchesters, most importantly a friend of Dean’s. Since Castiel’s actions were wiped clean, Sam suddenly became an independent agent who killed Lilith out of a power trip. That was crap. In 4 Sam did what a hunter should do: he tried to kill the big bad even at the peril of his own life from both combat and addiction. There was no reason he could not have successfully manipulated Ruby or been cured of his addiction. Dean and Bobby were exercising tough-love to break him of addiction and Sam was seeking guidance from Dean until he was tricked by the phone call. Season 5 dropped any resolution or reference to those critical events in the Winchester story in order IMO to add Collins as a friend of the Winchesters to the cast without being what he had been: a “follow you orders” angel who betrayed Dean and set up Sam.
It is an old set of issues and interesting that events in 4 and 5 still has resonance with me, but SPN once thrived on consistency and continuity in the Winchester story before Castiel was shoehorned into the series to accommodate the Destiel crowd. Sam getting all the flack for starting the apocalypse while Castiel got none, and even joined the blame-Sam brigade, was where casting trumped storytelling in SPN.
I strongly agree with Roxi. After early 4, the angel Castiel was not a good fit for SPN so SPN has been changed so Dean and Sam fit the Castiel character.
Waaay back in S4, Cas was a deliberate character creation, but he wasn’t meant to be permanent. It wasn’t Gamble doing anything then- Kripke was on board with getting angels involved. And I think Cas was a good character in S4 and even into S5. He was relevant to the plot, had his own mini-journey, had good moments with Dean and even a couple of good moments with Sam.
The shift came in S5. The angel storyline was supposed to be wrapping up, but Cas/the angels were so popular, the creative team started looking for ways to keep him/them around. At the same time, keeping Cas around the brothers all the time would create a “God button” more powerful than the Colt- what would ever be challenging again with an angel in the backseat? So that’s when it got weird for Cas- depowerings, insanity, amnesia, a turn at being evil for a bit, “atonements,” with him generally recovering in time to save the brothers when needed and have some emo with Dean.
I’ve said before and I’ll say again, I’m happy with Cas as long as he’s relevant to the story. The brothers do need friends, and I love the emerging and overdue friendship between Sam and Cas. I’m less happy with Cas being shoehorned in, learning about porn and peeing just for fan service.
@Icarus (69). I love your post! There’s no secret about my own Sammish leanings, but I really love Dean too, and I hate to see either character hated on. I also think it’s a falsehood to set up “one brother is the long-suffering martyr endlessly abused by the other” which I’ve seen on both sides of the “Sam v. Dean” divide. It’s a selective interpretation of the text, ignoring anything to the contrary.
The “Season 9 fight” is dividing fandom roughly along the same lines on which they’ve always been divided. Those that have always seen Dean as a controlling asshat see this as the latest and most egregious example of Dean controlling Sam, not even letting Sam freely choose to live or die (and on what terms). Those that have always seen Sam as an ungrateful jerk will see Sam as an ungrateful jerk now, throwing Dean’s sacrifices and pain in his face. Those who have never permitted that Dean is wrong on occasion won’t admit it this time, and those that think Sam is nothing but a victim won’t acknowledge his own bad behaviour.
Dean: — — I know I took a piece of you in the process, and for that…[Dean struggles to say the right thing. He finally just vents] Somebody changed the playbook, man, you know? It’s like what — what — what’s right is wrong and what’s wrong is more wrong, and… — —-
Sam: Honestly, um, I feel better than I have in a long time. I mean, I realise it’s crazy out there, and we have trouble coming for us, but I look around and I see friends, and family. I am happy with my life, for the first time in… forever. (beat) I-I am, I really am. It’s just, things are… things are good.
Dean: Never better.
I think Dean knew to suspect that healing had something to do with how Sam was feeling. But they were living their lives at the bunker and Sam had pretty much no issues with Dean and later was definitely off the angel Prozac. If Dean thought “Fuck, Sam thinks we’re cool but I really feel like he still owes me an apology” then he should have approached the subject if what happened at the church wasn’t enough for him. Sam is not a mind reader and they aren’t usually about words.
@ CaseyT #70: I agree that since the end of S4, Cas has been shoehorned into the show, and it has not been for the better. The writers had to dream up stories, different versions of him to make it seem like the character fit.
You will probably be as pleased as I am with this tweet from the DC Con:
“Jared: The writers have been trying to show who Cas and Crowley are outside of their relationship w/ the bros. #DCcon”
This is what happens when the cast is expanded from the original cast of two leads and they bring more characters into the story — the Winchesters and their stories get watered down to accommodate the other characters. You know how I feel about Misha’s self-promotion campaign, but it worked, the Js like him, and they have cut their time in each episode down to the bare minimum by having all the recurring characters back and developing their stories. That is just the way SPN is now and that’s the way it will be until the show ends.
@75, Sheri, I’m not surprised that Jared is trying to put a good face on this. After all, thanks to Collins and MS, he and JA get time off. I don’t mind the slack being taken up by Crowley; he’s a great character played by an excellent actor. But Castiel and the angels are so dreadfully boring, they bring down the entire show. At least, they do for me.
@ JT: I got sick of Crowley the last two years. I don’t like his “human” addiction story this season, but he isn’t screaming for lack of a decent storyline. He’s back to seemingly having some hidden layers we have not yet been privy to. I do agree that Mark S. is an excellent actor — something I can’t say about Misha, who has perfected the sad sack eyed, head tilted, staring off into the distance look.
If there were some decent angel characters (like Zachariah or Uriel), I could be get into the angels. Gadreel is the only one I have an interest in, and I hate Metatron’s character (and I am not cracked up with Curtis Armstrong, although he does have acting chops).
@77 Sheri, I completely agree on all counts. It’s hard to say what the point is of Crowley’s addiction. Maybe the writers wanted to take greater advantage of the talents of MS or, possibly, he grew tired of playing the snarky, sneaky demon and asked for a more versatile role. In any case, rather than drop the blood addiction when Sam abandoned the third trial, Carver seems to have decided to take advantage of it. And that might have been a very good call.
As a human blood addict, Crowley’s emotionally and physically vulnerable. This has leveled the playing field in his interactions with the boys. They were able to imprison him for months, as well as extract information and help from the demon. (At least, apparently.) Also, Crowley’s need for blood–and his particular longing for Sam’s “pure” variety–may give the Winchesters the leverage they’ll need with the King of Rotten in a future episode. Thirdly, since the ingestion of human blood has partly humanized the demon, he’ll be far more amenable to Abaddon’s bargain than he could ever have been in the days of “Weekend at Bobby’s” (loved that episode!). We might actually see Crowley undergo a genuine emotional conflict: should he save his son and kill the Winchesters, thereby giving up his only chance to regain hell? Or should he let Abaddon destroy Gavin so Dean can destroy her?
Those “hidden layers” you mention make the character even more intriguing. MS and the writers have suggested throughout the season that Crowley has some major secret agenda in the works that goes beyond the killing of Abaddon. Crowley’s a good actor, an accomplished liar. and an expert manipulator; nothing he says or does can be accepted at face value. Still, it’s easy to be taken in by him. Apparently, only after the MOC was a done deal did Dean realize he’d been set up by the demon from the moment Crowley appeared in the bar–something that cost the life of John’s friend. Was Cain in on the set up? It seemed clear Crowley had told him about Dean, so the First Murderer agreed to audition the human, then took advantage of the opportunity to pass on the mark. Why? Just so Dean would be able to kill him? There might be more to it than that.
And what about the whole business concerning Magnus? Are we supposed to believe that Crowley magically happened upon the exact location of the invisible fortress even though he claimed he’d been unable to find it decades before? And wasn’t it convenient that Magnus spirited Sam out of the fortress, giving him the chance to get Dean to take the blade, while Crowley hung about outside, ready to fetch the ingredients Sam needed to get them both back in? Why did Crowley go in? Was it so he could see to it Dean got hold of the blade just when the human became overwhelmed with murderous fury when Magnus tortured Sam? I wouldn’t be surprised if Crowley hadn’t been working with Magnus all along, just as the demon was working with Cain. (Magnus may be dead, but the fact that he had one shape shifter pretending to be him makes me suspect he had another at the ready–one who lost his head.)
Did Abaddon send her demons to break into the museum or were those Crowley’s thugs? I don’t know–anymore than I know if the demons who keyed Dean’s beloved car and left that silly message actually belonged to Crowley. If the demon wanted to stir up Dean’s wrath against Abaddon, making her seem responsible for defacing Baby was certainly the way to do it.
Then there was that strange second bar scene with Crowley and Dean. Crowley was clearly playing Dean from the get-go, even using one of his demons to test the human. Obviously, some “kid” with a knife couldn’t kill The King of Rotten, so Dean stopped the “hunter.” But why did Crowley interpret Dean’s intervention as an attempt to protect–not the kid–but himself? And what about that test could have convinced Crowley that Dean was “ready”?
Crowley’s immensely intriguing, partly because he’s so slippery, cagey, unpredictable, and malevolent, I feel like I’m always two steps behind him. I don’t even know if he’s really addicted or not. I also find it fascinating that Sam–of all people–is so insistent that Dean kill Crowley asap. Is Sam’s intense hostility towards the demon because of the MOC? Or did Sam learn something we don’t know as a result of the “mo” he and Crowley shared in the chapel?
Anyway, I have no hope for (dreary, boring) Castiel, but if one of “our feathered friends” turns out to be even as remotely interesting as Crowley, like you, I also might getting into the angels.
Dean might think that everything he does he does for Sam but it’s not as simple as that. If Sam were Dean’s top priority then he would do what Sam wants or be more understanding of what Sam wants (hell, even listen to what Sam wants). I’ve no doubt that Dean loves Sam (and vice versa) but I find this whole idea that Dean does everything for Sam etc etc to be overly romanticised at this stage. In order to do something ‘for’ someone, the recipient has to want it. Sam does not want it. He does not want Dean sacrificing for him. And the hurt and betrayal is not a one way street (or are the times that Dean has hurt and betrayed Sam irrelevant?), yet Sam is still around Dean.
Dean can have any kind of life he wants outside of Sam any time he wants. Sam certainly wouldn’t begrudge him it. If Dean wants normal then Sam will support it. If Dean wants to hunt then Sam will support it. He’s not forced to do anything. Dean could have chosen to stay with Sonny, he didn’t. He could have chosen to get out of hunting, he didn’t. Dean’s dream of Sam getting out of hunting and getting a normal life is dependent on Dean’s death. So, in other words, when Dean has died ‘for Sam’, well THEN Sam can go off and have his normal life (or at least he could last season. This season if Dean dies then who knows what he will want Sam to do). That IS Dean getting what he wants, not what Sam wants. However, while Dean is alive then he wants Sam beside him in the Impala and hunting.
Sam also wanted Dean to not look, but Dean had no problem in evidently breaking that promise.
Sam imploded. He didn’t look because he didn’t care. And how exactly should Sam have acted towards Dean? Ironically, he acted exactly the same way as Dean did at the start of season 5, yet Dean has never been called cold and unfeeling about it.
In season 2 he complained about Dean to Meg (and all he said was that it was the ‘same deal’ as Meg had with her family). Would you care to count how many times Dean has complained about Sam to people?
And telling him how weak he was and holding him back, wasn’t this after the MoTW has given him the toxin (that’s not an excuse, btw, that’s an explanation. Like Dean and the coin, with the supernatural influence Dean would not have said what he did, nor would Sam) and at a time when Dean didn’t want Sam to go after Lilith or use his powers.
Sam didn’t blame Dean for the fact that he chose Ruby. He said that ‘one of the reasons’ he went with Ruby was to get away from Dean. He then said that it was his fault, all of it. So that is taking responsibility for his actions.
I said that if Sam asked that Dean wouldn’t do it. Sam’s words don’t hold the same sway over Dean as Dean’s do over Sam, especially if it’s something Dean wants to do.
Yes, I am going to use that as an example. (Are you going to continue to dismiss every example I give?) It shows a pattern of thinking with Dean.
Gadreel wasn’t in any hurry to leave Sam because Sam wasn’t fully healed. We don’t know if Gadreel was. And Sam and Dean are not just a couple of hunters. Sam has housed and expelled Lucifer.
He didn’t know there was nothing he could do (re getting Castiel out), because, like Sam, he didn’t try. Dean came back from Purgatory with a lot more knowledge that he could have utilised in trying to open the Cage from the outside.
Dean being ripped apart by hellhounds etc was what he chose. It is what he found preferable to being alive and left on his own because Sam was dead. The same as ‘the once chance he ever had to have any normal life with Sonny’ is what he chose. It is what he wanted. It’s what he found preferable to not being with family. At any stage Dean could have walked out. He had more than enough skills to survive on his own. Dean loved hunted, he loved his father, he loved his brother, he loved that life. Everything Dean did he chose to do because he wanted it. He’s not some tragic martyr who was nailing himself to the cross day in, day out to be with his miserable, ungrateful, wretch of a brother and his abusive uncaring father which is what you are trying to pass his actions off as. You’ve done it all through this discussion. It’s what the show has been doing for years, taking attention away from Dean’s actions and the effect those actions have on others by pointing out what Sam has done wrong (and of course whatever Sam has done wrong is always going to be sooooo much worse…..) and then upping the pity party about how Dean is sooooo tragic etc.
And once again, there’s no evidence, bar Dean’s words, that Martin was mentally unstable.
And just to be clear, this isn’t Dean being ‘hated on’ or ‘utter condemnation’ of Dean (and your persistence in making assumptions and using snide little nicknames for those who don’t agree with your point of view is getting remarkably tedious). I understand why Dean does what he does (bar taking on the MoC. That was just idiotic). I get why he had Sam possessed. I get why he locked Sam in the Panic Room. I get why he sent the text etc. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be discussed. I’m just sick of what he does and the impact it has on others always being handwaved away, whitewashed over or put on someone else. At this stage it’s doing a serious disservice to more than just him.
I like Cas best when he’s with the boys as part of team free will, when he goes off without them, I tend to lose interest.And I like Misha and all but still, he’s always more interesting to me when he’s with Jared and Jensen.
Crowley needs to stay Crowley, a bad guy with only his own interests at heart. I don’t want to see him become another Meg 2.0. I liked the actress, but I never could accept the fact that this demon, who was responsible for nearly getting their father killed, who did get Ellen and Jo killed, and who caused general misery for the boys ended being their chum.At least with Crowley, you know that he’s always in it for himself. He may have developed a grudging respect for the boys, but that’ll never stop him from killing them if he can.
Then again maybe he just gave up on that.After all, by now he’s probably realized that they never stay dead anyway LOL.
@ JT #79: I may very well be wrong, but I think you are reading way too much into all those scenes. To have any of what you mention be the case, the writers would have to be writing Crowley as pulling a long con on Dean, and this group of writers cannot put together a consistently well-developed script, let alone have the ability to pull off a season long, long con. Nor do I think there is time enough left to pull together all of that in three episodes.
Just my opinion, of course. They could carry Crowley’s story over to S10, since I haven’t seen anything to indicate what setup they have planned for S10 yet.
We know Abaddon bites it in 9.21 (Dean likely the one to do that deed). Crowley is in the finale, and we know the writers have been developing both Cas and Crowley’s characters to make a more ensemble cast, so Crowley will live. I suspect Abaddon dying is what the writers deem as ‘wrapping up’ the Hell war story.
My thought is that Gadreel will bite it this season, too, with probably Sam killing Gadreel. Cas should kill Metatron as a wrap up of the angel story, since Carver has said that both of those stories will be completed this season. (I know, TPTB lie all the time.)
I do not see the brothers’ coming of-age-story to be done this season, but I don’t think that Dean will become Crowley’s bitch next season, either. That would be way OOC for Dean; it would put Dean out of all of the MotW episodes, which is the majority of every season; it would separate the brothers for the entire season (and that is never going to happen); and there has been no indication or build-up to that story at all.
I might add that I have seen no build-up to Sam saving Dean, either. In fact, just the opposite. That doesn’t mean anything with these writers, either, as they seem incapable of writing sub-text of any kind.
@80- No,Dean DID know that there was no way he could get Cas out. Would you have wanted him to sacrifice an innocent virgin? How was he gonna get the blood of a Purgatory native? Not to mention all the havoc that caused the last time. This was the only way!
Sam had no idea if Dean was even dead, because he didn’t have the information about what happened to Dean. He didn’t investigate, didn’t even try.
Dean had very good reason to act cold to Sam at the beginning of season 5! Sam had just spent the entire year turning his back on him in favor of a demon@!
What the hell wrong did Dean do to Sam in season 8 that merited Sam treating him that way? Having the audacity to show up alive? It boggles my mind that you could possibly see a similarity there!
I NEVER called Sam an ungrateful wretch of a brother, NEVER said Dean was a victim!How many more lies can you spout off? What I said was that YOU are making Dean out to be nothing more than a selfish, self centered prick who tries to own Sam and I countered that by giving examples of his love and devotion to Sam. And this idea that Dean controls Sam is utterly ridiculous; he may be too bossy, but Sam has shown plenty of times that if he wants to do something, he’s gonna do it, and if he doesn’t, he won’t just like he stays if he wants to and leaves if he chooses, regardless of what Dean wants.
So, just like I said before, ANYTHING Dean ever did in your eyes, getting ripped apart by hellhounds, being torn apart on meat hooks day after day for 40 years, choosing to leave Sonny because Sam needed him and wouldn’t have stood much of a chance alone with John, all that is meaningless because he chose it. And again through this entire post, you have condoned, excused, and handwaved ANY action of Sam’s that was wrong and hurtful to Dean.Then you go on to make Sam out to be a poor victim( “of course whatever Sam has done will be sooo much worse”) please, and then make fun of Dean ever being hurt by him. And don’t worry: Dean has plenty of folks like you who run him down for everything like you continue to do.
I REFUSE to excuse, condone, or brush away stuff that Dean does wrong, and I have already listed some of the things he’s done wrong.And he HAS hurt Sam. I’m not gonna excuse or condone that. And I’m not gonna condemn Sam for the things he DIDN’T do wrong, such as wanting to go to college and have a normal life,unknowingly freeing Lucifer, the stuff Souless Sam did, getting angry at Dean, for what I have EMPHATICALLY stated that Dean was wrong for, such as killing Amy, lying about it,sending that awful text, and especially this season.
But ALL of your posts make out like Sam is NEVER in the wrong, ALL of Sam’s actions were for completely noble and unselfish reasons,even if he does do something wrong it’s always for a good reason, that Sam has NEVER wronged Dean,hurt him, or treated him badly. And I say that’s BULLSHIT.
So you find my” snide remarks” tedious do you? Well for starters, I don’t have snide remarks for EVERYBODY that has a different opinion from me, plenty of posters right here do. My snide remarks are reserved for those whose character bias is so over the top that they totally refuse to see ANY fault in him/her, no matter what, while going out of their way to make sure they don’t give the character that’s not their favorite any credit or benefit of the doubt at all, ever. I find THAT tedious.
“If Sam were Dean’s top priority then he would do what Sam wants or be more understanding of what Sam wants (hell, even listen to what Sam wants).”
In saying all of this, you make Sam sound like he has no free will of his own and, in effect, are taking all agency of Sam as a character away. Sam could leave at any time — has many times — just as Dean could, but the show is about two brothers hunting evil. It is also about the fact that humanity’s only defense against the evil in the world, the monsters, is the hunters who are standing on the wall keeping them at bay.
We have seen repeatedly that Dean listens to Sam.
It’s not that you don’t like Dean, I think. It’s more that you like Sam’s character, but don’t like the stories Sam has had, or perhaps Sam’s role in those stories. Dean has always been the protagonist in the show. He is the one all other character stories revolved around. He is the rock that holds the family concept together (a premise of the show that strength comes from family and helps people get through the tough times). Dean fighting for that idea of family is Dean’s character. Sam’s character has always been pulling away from hunting and his family. That has always been the tension and the distinction between the brothers.
Nothing in the show indicates that one brother is a slave master over the other. Sam’s character has always made his own choices, and those choices were the wrong ones that that drove the mytharc up until this season. In this season, it is Sam who disavowed the family and disavowed Dean as a brother, and that decision is what has drove the Winchesters story since Sam got unpossessed. Dean’s decision was made only to get the story started.
I do agree that everything Dean does is not for Sam and that Dean makes his own choices. Dean marches to his own drummer, and he really does not care if anyone else follows him or agrees with him. We’ve seen that plenty of times, but we have also seen Dean listen to others; i.e., Bobby in S5 when he told Dean he was a better man than John. Sam repeatedly, when Sam was adamant about something – Metamorphosis when Sam thought the guy could be talked to and would listen; in Fallen Idols, when Sam said Dean wouldn’t let him wear the big boy pants and then the Swan Song decision as just a couple of examples.
In this season, Dean made the possession decision knowing that Sam wouldn’t like it, and he was always willing to take the consequences for that decision. What Dean didn’t know was that Sam would disavow him as a brother, and that was Sam’s choice. Dean did no anticipate (nor did the viewers) that Sam’s idea of why that decision was made was that Dean was a selfish dick who can’t live alone and that everything Dean has ever done has been meaningless and worthless, because he only does things for his own selfish reasons.
The result of Sam’s decision is that Dean took on the MoC, because he thinks he has nothing to lose, that he has only caused harm and done no good. To me, the show is saying that when you can’t or don’t have family and those who care about you as a person to depend on; those who are isolated, makes life meaningless; that isolation can drive people to do crazy things. Personally, I see Dean being crazier (darker) than he normally is, not turning into a demon. Yes, he is losing that part of humanity that Sam has always kept at bay and turning more to his darker self, which has always been a big part of Dean.
I also think Sam is learning something from turning in his brother card, and that something is to value Dean as a person, as a brother, and for the things Dean has always done for Sam; i.e., the value of family, which Sam has never understood or accepted.
That’s also why I think that Sam saving Dean would be a ridiculous ending to this story. Dean needs to save himself and, from that, Sam will see value in Dean as a person, Dean’s strength as a human, and the value of the love of family.
“And once again, there’s no evidence, bar Dean’s words, that Martin was mentally unstable.”
Seriously? You did not see the episode of Martin in the nut house? You did not see the opening scene with Martin when the brothers showed up at the hotel and he decidedly checked the hallways in a paranoid way after letting the brothers into the room? You did not notice him maniacly stabbing the ice cube trays with a fork?
I am an admitted Dean fan, but I can’t think of one single instance where Dean betrayed Sam. I didn’t see that in the Amy decision (an active killer). It hurt Sam’s feelings, of course, but it was not a betrayal.
I did not see it in the possession decision, given the above-mentioned premise of the show.
I did not see it in Dean choosing to give up his soul for Sam’s life. That was a necessary part of the Sam’s downhill slide into darkness.
I did not see the “mean text” as a betrayal; rather as a way to save either Sam’s or Benny’s life.
If someone can point out specific instances that they think Dean has done incredibly bad things to any other character, I would welcome those examples.
This whole thing with Cas is still bothering me. Dean spend a whole year fighting his way through Purgatory, killing monsters and threatening them trying to get information on where Cas was. Then upon finding him, he STRONGLY insisted that he was not leaving without him. Does that sound like a man who didn’t try as hard as he could to rescue Cas?
Then we they got to the portal and Dean tried like hell to pull Cas through with him, but Cas pulled away.
When Dean got topside, how was he supposed to get Cas out? He only knew of the ritual that required both the blood of a Purgatory native and an innocent virgin, and even then, judging from last time, he could have let Leviathin and other nasty creatures in all over again. And STILL, he hated himself and agonized over letting Cas down.
How anybody could see this as Dean not caring and not trying is beyond me.
As far as Sam goes, all we needed to see was a bit of mourning, and at least some indication that he had at least tried. Nobody would have faulted him for trying and failing, nobody would have expected him to mourn Dean forever, and nobody would have faulted him if, at that point after everything, all he wanted was to get out of hunting and live a normal life.But then, to me, that guy WASN’T Sam anyway, so……….
But oh that’s right, Dean’s a selfish asshole because he disregarded that stupid deal they made and still tried to find a way to save Sam. What a self centered, selfish, awful prick.
@ roxi: That “stupid deal” never was. That was just a stupid writer’s trick by Carver to give Sam the cover of “being mature.” I don’t know of any fan, except Samapologists, who took it seriously. Carver still, to this day, thinks that Sam not looking was a ‘mature’ thing.
The only way anybody can compare Dean not saving Cas from Purgatory and Sam not spending a second looking for Dean is, again, what I consider a Samapologist. You are right in saying Dean only knew of a spell to open Purgatory (and that also required an eclipse along with the other things you mentioned). Rogue Reapers had not yet been born by the Nepotism Duo, so it wasn’t like Dean could take a walk through that park again on his own.
Those fans also discount Cas’ redemption story. Remember, he wanted to stay in Purgatory because he thought he needed to do penitence for his sin of pride.
“The result of Sam’s decision is that Dean took on the MoC.”
Is actually not chronologically accurate. Dean got the MOC before Sharp Teeth and Purge, remember? He and Sam had only spoken briefly at that point (and it was Dean that chose to leave).
I feel like this is an idea that’s going to spread around, and it bugs me. Interpretation will be what it is, but it’s just not factually accurate in terms of the timeline of events. Quite apart from the issue I have with anything implying “It’s Sam’s fault Dean got the MOC!”
@ Jaytee #88: You are correct in that, Jaytee. Lots and lots of distractions, so I wasn’t clear in my thoughts. Dean had already decided that he has dragged everyone he every cared for through the muck with him and it was his choice to take the MoC on without care for the ‘burden’ or consequences. Crowley reinforced that feeling earlier this season, and Kevin did it in the beginning of S8.
I believe that Sam’s disowning reinforces Dean’s feelings (or perhaps validates is a better word), not that Sam’s disowning Dean is the problem. The only problem with Sam’s actions is that Dean can continue to isolate himself, because Sam doesn’t have the brother card to play anymore and there is no pull there to keep Dean from going dark. Sam has been that pull in the past. That is also why I think Dean needs to save himself or we will be back at the status quo.
As I said, I don’t see any indication at this point in the show that Sam will try to save Dean. I see Sam’s worry, but I don’t see any indication of Sam changing his mind. If that happens in the last couple of episodes, it will be one of those much-loved “wow” moments the writers like to throw in there without any buildup or subtext to support it.
@88 True, Jaytee. I think the writers contributed to that idea by not giving Dean a strong motive for going after Abaddon. I may be forgetting something, but his sudden determination to take on the MOC and kill the Queen of Hell–whatever the consequences–seems to have come out of nowhere. Why hasn’t he shown the same determination to kill Crowley? After all, if one big bad’s out, the other will be in.
@89, Sheri, I just saw your post. Maybe the reason why we haven’t gotten any indication that Sam will save Dean is because the boys are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Abaddon is building an army of soulless killers; she must be stopped “asap,” and Dean’s the only one who can do it. So, if humanity’s to be saved, one brother can’t save the other. (It seems like a similar situation to the one in “Swan Song.”)
Anyway, I’m guessing the question the series will be asking is whether Sam will be willing to kill his brother to save the world from Cain/Dean.
@ JT # 90: I was confused about that when Road Trip aired, too. Dean’s stated intention in Road Trip was to go after Gadreel, then the writers just passed that one over to Sam and Dean all of a sudden was going after Abaddon, or rather agreed to work with Crowley to go after Abaddon. Another case of these writers not having the ability to put a coherent through-story together (or one writer not watching the show and not knowing what the next one is doing).
I also thought it was interesting sub-text (and you know how I feel about sub-text in THIS show) that everyone seems to want to use Dean as their tool now that he has the Mark. Sam wants him to kill Crowley and Sam wants him to kill Crowley. That’s one reason I say there is no indication that Sam has shown no indication of wanting to save Dean outside of the ‘working partner’ relationship.
Crowley may think that he can control Dean (say in S10) and Sam may think it’s okay to use it for his desire to kill Crowley, but neither seem to realize that Dean is unstoppable now. Even Cas has not expressed anything but a passing concern about being worried about Dean. Dean being unstoppable is another reason I think Dean needs to take control of the problem himself — neither Crowley, Sam, nor Cas logically have enough power, pull, or knowledge to stop or kill Dean. It’s not like they can lock him in a panic room, which brings up the question as to whether or not Dean is immortal now, or if Cain was immortal because he was a demon.
I do think that Carver is doing a retelling of Swan Song, so there is no telling how he plans to take the story. Besides, there has not been enough of the story to make speculation plausible.
@84 Sheri, I agree. I don’t think Dean has deliberately betrayed his brother, or caused harm to others. However he has, as has Sam, said very hurtful and cutting things to his brother. One instance I can think of immediately is in season 5, when Sam and Dean were separated by mutual agreement, and Sam called Dean about Lucifer. And Dean very casually and coldly refused to let him come back or even listen or support him at all. I know he thought it was for the best, but I did not like the way it was done.
But I agree that Dean s very devoted to Sam. It will be hard to find anyone who disagrees with that. However, I do feel you have a skewed perspective on Sam and his personality/motives/actions, etc.
You insist that he said that everything Dean has done has been worthless or wrong, and done only for selfish reasons. And that they weren’t to be brothers anymore. When he actually said was “If you want to be brothers….” and the writers left the rest incomplete. When he talked of “meaningless, ending up wrong” (I don’t remember the exact words anymore), he was specifically talking about Dean saving Sam. He started with the whole “swooping in to save me” bit, spoke of Dean’s actions ending up doing more harm than good, and ended with “what is the up side of me being alive?”. In no way do I think that Sam thinks that Dean overall does more harm than good or that Dean’s life is meaningless. Plus Sam was angry with Dean when they had that talk. Lots of people say more than what they actually mean then (I know you think he doesn’t have reason to be angry, but that’s a whole another discussion…)
You also say that Sam never understood the value of family. On the contrary, apart from a few selfish, very human decisions, he has always shown himself to be devoted to his brother. At various times during the series, he has been shown as committed or not committed to hunting, but when has he ever wanted to pull away from family? How can you possibly forget him taking on his hell memories simply because he wasn’t going to leave Dean alone? His willingness to do anything to get Dean back from hell? heck, he wouldn’t even be hunting if it wasn’t for his devotion to Dean. His choice, 100%, but a choice made because of his love for Dean.
I simply do not understand how you can dismiss Sam’s love for his brother as non-existent. I know we all have our perectives, but this one totally confuses me.
Sheri #75–I am pleased with the quote. Absolutely agree with you. It shows me Jared can see what’s going on and probably has approved of the less-time approach. Jared, particularly, has early-on groused about the workload. The lack of J2 time in the series is undoubtedly due in part to J2 wanting less work demand. Can’t blame them. Life’s different with family responsibilities; I get that.
My problem is how the show runners and writers have chosen to fill the non-J2 time. Largely they’ve simply turned it over to be filled by Collins’ online audience. I mean watching a guy drink water or doing laundry represents some absolute low in fan pandering even for CW. Worse, much of Jensen’s role is siphoned off to play the B character to Collins A role. How many great roles could Dean have played if he didn’t have to fill the role Collins has highly promoted for himself? Luckily or by design, Jared has not allowed Sam to be subsumed in the Collins’ act. My bet is Jared will never become second banana in his own series to a recurring character.
@92 Sheri, thanks. I was afraid I’d missed something. As you say, none of these writers seem to know what the other is doing. Whoever wrote that Metatron script even had him complain sarcastically about continuity–as if such a thing is of no importance. (My gosh! Where do they get these writers, anyway?)
You’re right about that subtext. Everybody does want to use Dean. And what I find really chilling is that nobody seems to care much about what has or will happen to him. I hate to include Sam in that, but he appears more concerned about the harm Dean might do to others than the harm the MOC is doing to him. The writers really do seem to be withdrawing Sam’s love for his brother. But maybe I’m just reading things wrong.
It’s certainly not Sam’s fault that Dean took that mark. Only Dean is to blame for anything Dean does.
And I believe Sam loves Dean. Season 8 notwithstanding, Sam has shown his love for Dean in the past, and this season, even after all that’s gone down, and even after claiming he didn’t want to be brothers, he’s still acting more like the old Sam than in all of season 8.Some of what he accused Dean of in the Purge bothered me, because it wasn’t all true, but now I’ve also chosen to believe that a lot of that stuff was said out of anger.
I too, thought it was stupid that after all that had just went down with Gadreel, suddenly, Abaddon was first on Dean’s list? I guess the writers had to find a way to justify the MOC and First Blade story, but this was just dumb. I reckon even the writers realized this so then they wrote that story of Abaddon stealing souls and making monsters out of people in order to emphasize the importance and urgency and stopping her.
@97 roxi, I don’t think you mean I suggested it was Sam’s fault Dean took the mark. Clearly, the choice was Dean’s alone. I believe the Sam we know loves Dean with all his heart. But the Sam Carver and his writers have created is so often OOC, I wouldn’t be surprised if he were portrayed as caring a lot less for Dean than Dean does for him. On the other hand, Carver did say the boys would discover their bond is deeper than either of them could have suspected, so that does give hope!
@JT- I thought the last several episodes made it clear that Sam’s worried about where Dean’s headed (looks, frequently asking if Dean’s alright, checking in with him by phone, bringing up how he killed the vamp, nodding and looking tired and stressed when Cas told him to keep an eye on Dean, etc.) There was also cut dialogue from “Meta Fiction” where Sam SAYS he’s worried about Dean. There hasn’t been tons of dialogue, but there has been plenty going on.
I suppose we have to wait and see, but the synopses for the upcoming episodes have me hopeful that Sam will be more proactive with Dean. As it is, I don’t mind what he’s been doing so far (though I wish he had more of a presence in the last two episodes, both with Dean and in general). One of the most common “takes” I’ve seen on Sam the last few epis (and I’m inclined to agree) is that he’s trying to keep an eye on Dean and not provoke an argument or confrontation. Staying around and seeing what’s going on (and asking him frequently if he’s okay, giving him the chance to talk if he does want to and *gently* letting Dean know that Sam’s onto him) is better than forcing a confrontation, furthering their estrangement, and then winding up out of the loop when things get worse- or making things worse by provoking a fight at a really bad time. I think it was Carver in an interview that mentioned that Sam’s own experience in this area would come through, and I recall Bobby’s words in Levee to Dean “not to push Sam away…just get him home” (paraphrasing badly here, I don’t have the exact quote). Sam knows fighting Dean right now will get him approximately nowhere and probably just push Dean further away and/or make things worse.
Moreover, whereas from Dean’s POV Sam’s DB addiction was a relatively simple (if not easy) fix- get Sam away from DB until he dries out- there’s still no set answer for Dean’s MOC issues. The Blade sets him off. As of this moment (until next epi at least), Dean doesn’t have the Blade, and the MOC is a fait accompli. So tossing Dean into a Panic Room won’t help matters.
And yes, unfortunately, as Sheri has mentioned, because of their rupture this year, Sam can’t take the same liberties with Dean that he could before. He can’t play the “brother” card either, though my guess is he’ll try to soon. I imagine if he’s not kicking himself yet for that, he will before the season’s out.
Finally, as I’ve said in the past, Sam hasn’t read the spoilers for this show :p. He’s seeing more and more that the MOC/Blade is bad news, but he didn’t witness the conversations with Cain, Crowley, or Magnus, I doubt Dean’s told him, all tings considered, and he has no way of knowing whether Dean will get worse or where he’ll end up. For several episodes, the MOC didn’t have a major effect on Dean- he was “off,” but it would have been easy to explain that by other causes, especially since Sam was stressed from their fight and expected Dean to be stressed as well. Sam is at a disadvantage with the fandom, because we know things that he doesn’t.
@ Tammy #93: Oh, I agree that Dean can be a hard-ass that doesn’t mince words. I’ll give you a better example than the one you mentioned, and that was the Dean in Point of No Return. That was a Dean that was fed up with everyone and had lost faith in everyone and everything, including himself. That was an angry Dean who was dangerous and mad as hell. He was brutally honest and even mean in what he said to Bobby, Cas, and Sam, and he knew just where to hit to hurt the three of them the most.
He hit Bobby with his surrogate father role. He hit Cas by mocking him for their ‘profound bond,’ and that is because Cas had transferred his blind faith from God (after he gave up on God in Dark Side of the Moon) to Dean at that point.
And he hit Sam hard with Sam’s greatest fear, Dean’s lack of trust in him. The thing is that there was truth behind Dean’s words. Sam had spent two years sucking down demon blood, calling Dean “weak”, hanging out with Ruby and choosing her over Dean, cold-cocking Bobby, and choking his brother half to death.
At the end of PoNR, Dean admitted to Sam that he didn’t give in because he could not let Sam down after Sam put so must sincere trust in him. Sam doesn’t usually trust that openly i.e., not telling Jessica even about his life, so although Sam said Dean didn’t have to acknowledge Sam’s actions, Dean did have to, simply to validate Sam finally returning the devotion and unquestioned faith in Sam that Dean had displayed over their lifetime.
I will also say that these are supposed to be tough guys who can stand up to monsters, angels, and demons, and they are supposed to be blue collar types. I certainly do not expect them to use polite language and resolve their problems in a mannerly way.
The point is, compare that to your example of Dean telling Sam they were better apart so the demons and angels could not use them against each other.
I don’t believe I have a skewed view of Sam’s character at all. If the writers would have left Sam as he was at in PoNR, I would be as pleased with him as I am of Dean…but they didn’t. What they have done is take Sam from being weak-minded and easily manipulated (the demon blood story) to soulless, to man-pain, to dumping Dean, Kevin and Meg, and then to disavowing Dean as a brother – all of which depicts Sam as incapable of exercising his own free will while free will is the only real super-power on the show. And in the end, just like demons and angels, Sam never truly gets what he wants because of his inability to use his free will.
My thought on Sam is that he often transfers his own guilt onto Dean (i.e., the Benny thing and wondering if Dean would find another angel the next time Sam disappoints Dean). That is not using one’s free will; that is running away from your problems.
Re: “If you want to be brothers…”and the writers left the rest incomplete.”
How else are the viewers to take it, since the writers have continued to write the brothers in a business or partner relationship. Besides, whether Sam meant it or not, Dean believes that is what Sam was saying, and that is what is important to the story and can’t be handwaved.
I can say Sam has never valued family from the Pilot forward and for the reasons I have mentioned in this post. I do believe Sam loves Dean in his own way, but I think the brother bond is one-sided because Sam’s love is a selfish love. He loves when it suits him and when it doesn’t, he is willing to walk away from it, just as he hunts when he wants to and walks away from it when he doesn’t. In saying that, I believe I give Sam more agency as a character than you do.
Yes, he took on his hell memories to get back to Dean, but then he was willing to accept death this season and leave Dean with a Heaven-full of angels walking this earth…not to mention the war in Hell (because I don’t think Sam was aware of that at the time). Sam is smart enough to know that angels on earth in Supernatural is not a good thing and that Dean would have to fight them alone.
Yes, he tried everything to keep Dean from Hell and to get him back. He failed at that one, and that was before his slippery slope downhill with Ruby and his transference of guilt to Dean. He is hunting because of his devotion to Dean, or has he not hit another dog and meant another bitchy vet. With all of Sam’s flipping and flopping through the years, how is he to be trusted at all?
@ CaseyT #95: As far as I am concerned, the J2s could not be in the episodes any less than they are and still have it be called their show and, personally, I think they get paid a ton of money for the workload they have. I do agree with you on the filler episodes, but I extend that beyond Misha to Garth, Jody, and Charming Charlie. Hell, we even lost an episode this season to a proposed show.
Apologies for the length of this post. There was just a lot of points to cover in this response.
@95 Thanks, Jaytee. What you’ve said about the many indications that Sam is concerned is encouraging. (I’m always uneasy about the writers causing even more damage to the brothers’ relationship.) As you point out, Sam doesn’t seem to know what we do, so he probably has only a faint inkling of the seriousness of Dean’s situation. Dean would have told his brother only the bare minimum–leaving out any mention of what Crowley said about Cain’s becoming the worst demon who ever walked the planet or killing thousands or raising hell knights to bring darkness and chaos upon the earth. Also, Dean obviously hasn’t told Sam about his addiction or about any physical changes he saw in himself when he showered (I couldn’t see what Dean saw, but I guess it must have been significant.) Sam did such research on the computer, but none of the information we learned from Cain and Crowley would have been there.
Also, since Carver apparently wants to continue the MOC myth arc next season, he’s probably keeping Sam’s concern to a minimum. Once he sees the full impact of the MOC on Dean, Sam will probably be extremely upset. Of course, by then, there won’t be anything he can do except to try to get his brother to put down the blade–….which tells me Carver will have to make the relationship between Sam and Dean even more troubled than it is now. All Cain’s wife had to do was ask (apparently). Convincing Dean to put down the blade will have to be a lot harder for Sam. Otherwise, where’s the drama? Do I sense a major battle between the brothers coming?
Don’t know if any of you have heard some of what Jensen said at the DC Con about the finale, apparently he said when he read the script, “oh wow, oh wow they have gone there” “I don’t often say that” or words to that effect. So reckon it is going to be something like Sam killing Dean/Dean killing Sam – god I hope not………………. By the way for those interested he also said something about why they are not producers – on Fangasm blog.
Thing is, I don’t know. The way the writers write Sam, it is hard to make a definite analysis of his character, motives, head-space. And I guess what bothered me about your post (please don’t be offended, I’m just trying to analyze my own reaction) was that it seemed to me you wrote about the characters (esp talking of Sam here) in post 84 as if your view is the only right one.
I feel we all do have our perspectives, what we get from the show. I feel the writers have been grossly unjust in their writing of Sam. It’s been lazy, inconsistent and ambiguous, and hasn’t kept Sam truly Sam in ages, only to serve whatever plot or story they have going on.
This disservice to Sam I keep separate in my head from who I feel ‘Sam’ really is – a brother who is caring and loving, who has made many mistakes – and huge sacrifices to atone for them. Someone who has at times been selfish and regretted it. Someone who can be weak and sometimes makes the wrong decisions or says wrong, sometimes cruel, things when angry, but at heart always cares, is devoted to his family, i.e Dean (and to the greater good), and would, in fact, do anything for him – even more than he realizes. This character with very human weaknesses, along with his brother, is a hero to me. Because they both manage to rise above their weaknesses when it really counts, and do whatever is needed, whatever the cost to themselves. Both of them. And I love them both for it.
@Jaytee, JT. I agree. Sam doesn’t know what we do. I would be happier with more open concern being shown from him, but ah… these writers! My guess is that they want to keep it hanging, just for their ‘big bro moment’ in the finale, or next season, whenever they decide to bring them back together. Surprise! They’re so utterly lacking in imagination that it’s a real wonder to me how they are where they are.
I think they’d somehow get them together in the finale, yet keep the MoC story going – I don’t know if they’d want to continue the tension onto the next season. Not sure how though they’d do it though. Maybe the writers really will surprise us, in a good way. Won’t that be pleasant!
But I really don’t think that Carver’s going to spoil the relationship any further. I honestly think it’s going towards a more positive place, not the other way around.
The synopsis for the upcoming episode… really? Centered on the angels again? Are our boys EVER going to be the leads on their own show? Why are they constantly being asked to ‘help’, shouldn’t it be the other way around?
@102, Icarus, uh oh….Sounds like heads could roll. I wouldn’t be surprised, given the whole Cain/Abel thing. Of course, there was some comment from the actress who plays the Reaper about a “twist,” wasn’t there? And did I read that the Trickster would be around?
Actually, after nine years, what I’d like to see is the Winchesters pulling a major fast one on the baddies–tricking them for a change. If we have to be tricked, too, fine. But, honestly, the boys have been in the business long enough to work together like a perfectly oiled machine and blow us all out of the water with a major sting. The question is, are the writers smart enough to engineer something like that? I have my doubts.
One good thing about Supertural is that we never really know what’s going to happen. In every season finale of the series something that nobody suspected happens. Who knew the angels would fall last season? Who knew Dean and Castiel would gonna be trapped in Purgatory the year before? Like it or not, something that we never expected is gonna happen, so I wouldn’t dare to make predictions about the season finale. I have the impression that Cain (or maybe Abel?) is gonna be the big bad next season. But who knows?
@ 105, JT – I would really love your scenario too i.e. Sam and Dean over big bads, doesn’t seem likely however. @106 – some of the finales have been really exciting but I was not interested in S8’s liked it for the bro moments but Angels falling was meh for me so I spent a happy Summer not worrying about S9 as bros on same page, new season what not to want – silly me!!!
@Icarus, I didn’t say it was exciting (for me, it was at the time, but the storyline was poorly executed in season 9, but I agree the bro moment was the best), I was only saying that it was unexpected. I’m not saying everyone like it, just saying that no one saw that comming. Usually season finales are like that.
@98- Oh no JT, I wasn’t saying that. I’m referring to people who would try to blame Sam for because of his words in “The Purge”. Dean is solely responsible for the mistakes he makes, as are Sam for his and Cas for his.
I have read that the finale connects Cas, CAS, to the mytharc in a big way. There were no details.
I have also seen speculation about the possibility that Dean will kill Cas, but that makes no sense to me, what possible reason would there be for that happening?
Whatever happens, it had damned well better heavily involved both Dean AND YES, Sam!
I complained a lot last year about all the important stories always going to Sam while Dean played sidekick but I gotta say, this year Sam hasn’t really had anything, while Dean, who was finally supposed to have an important arc, hasn’t really had much of a real arc yet either.
Do Jeremy Carver and his ilk fail to remember The Winchesters, the two leads and center of SPN? Seems like he’s re imagining them as supporting cast.
@ Tammy #103: *smiles*. I am not offended at all that other people view the show differently than I do. Everyone on this board comes here to talk about a show and characters we share a love for and an interest in. I have no desire, intention, or expectation of changing anybody’s mind about how they view the show or which character they favor.
I don’t think anyone is right or wrong about how they view the show. I definitely separate the actors from the kindergarten writers we have these days. I like JP and think this show would not be worth watching if not for both JP and JA, but find what the writers have done to Sam’s character since S4 baffling.
Just an example: In PoNR, what Dean said was mean, and it was meant to be mean, but there was truth behind the dialogue. What Sam said this season has no truth behind it at all, which to me makes Sam come off as a mega jerk. I don’t think one viewer of this show who has watched it for any length of time could say that Dean is selfish. Quite the opposite — Dean is the most selfless character on the show and always has been and I, for the life of me, cannot come up with a good reason for the writers putting that dialogue in Sam’s mouth.
I have a suspicion that the plan this season is to rewrite the ending to Kripke’s 5-year arc. If that is the case, then Dean will have to die in some way; as he did in S3, and Sam will have to save him in some way.
I started the season thinking that Carver did away with Sam’s demon blood issue once and for all, and this season he would put away Sam’s “victim” mentality — his feeling that he has always been a pawn — which would, to me anyway, make Sam comfortable with himself. To accomplish that, Sam would have to quit rejecting Dean and quit running away. That’s not what happened. Sam rejected Dean in a way that he has never done before, so now I am thinking that Carver is rewriting Swan Song with Dean falling into the “hole” in some way.
For Dean’s character, I thought Carver took everything away from him, stripped him of everything that he values (family, friends, and connections to other people), with the intention of Dean having to fight for himself in order to fix himself. I don’t see any of that happening at all, so that puts me back to thinking the most predictable thing will happen — Dean will die in some way and Sam will save him and I don’t see how that fixes any of the ‘issues’ between them or with themselves.
However this finale ends, I know I won’t be spending five months anticipating what might happen. Purgatory was a wash and we got Amelia, and the fallen angels gave us a Winchester soap opera. My expectations aren’t high for what might be in store for S10.
Sheri – I’d be shocked if the finale intrigued me in the slightest. As of today, I couldn’t care less what happens. Nothing that happened last year had much significance, and I suspect that will be the case this year too. These writers are awful.
Tammy – I agree w/your description of Sam. That’s how I see him too. Unfortunately, the writers tend to let him go for the jugular. His words can be very cutting and cruel, and since JP is a good actor, it comes off like Sam really means what he says.
This wouldn’t be an issue as much IF the show allowed Sam to show his love for Dean more, esp since S8. While I don’t share the belief that Sam doesn’t care about Dean as much as Dean cares about him, I can see how others might reach that conclusion. The writing doesn’t tend to paint him in a good light, IMO.
Okay I read that Jensen said at the con that he doesn’t have a favorite Supernatural episode but he has favorite storylines. He said he liked Sam’s demon blood storyline and he liked Dean and Benny’s Purgatory storyline. Now it’s questioned why Jensen didn’t say that the mark of Cain is his favorite. I think that’s a bit worrying considering earlier he had made a point about Dean’s stories being dropped and how he wanted to “take Dean there” and now Dean definitely has his own myth arc. So maybe the finale wasn’t to his satisfaction? Because I’d think he would promote Dean’s current storyline if he was really into it. Kind of like Jared was excited about getting to play Sam who was possessed by an angel at the start of the season.
I believe JA said in another interview that he’s found it stressful playing MOC!Dean. I got the impression he was excited about the storyline, but found it tough to do. JA is more than capable of Not!Dean acting, but he seems to prefer being plain ol’ Dean :p. One of the reasons they’ve kept up with Not!Sams for as long as they have is that JP loves doing that.
Which, to link back to part of the discussion above, has been a bit of a disservice to both characters- there’s been so much not!Sam around the last few seasons that the writers and viewers aren’t 100% on who he is anymore. He’s either “altered” or recovering from his latest alteration or atoning for something a lot of the time. Soulless!Sam, Crazy!Sam, Trials!Sam, Gad!Sam, am I missing any? By the end of S8, Sam was on his third round of “atoning” since S5, and was being altered at the same time! No wonder he didn’t know which way was up after he got depossessed! At the same time, Dean gets pigeonholed into “reacting to Sam,” more of an emotional role than an action one. It’s telling that so many of us are EXCITED for Dean to essentially turn evil- we’re hungry for Dean to have more story, and we’re hungry for Sam to be more consistent and have more emotional POV.
@Sheri- I do think we’re starting to see that Sam you were hoping for after the depossession. Now that I’ve rattled off all the Not!Sams and his times recovering or atoning from them, it may indeed have been a touch optimistic to think he could “get over” all of that within an episode or two, but in recent episodes he hasn’t been focused on his own experiences at all. To the contrary, he seems to have put his issues with Dean to the back burner to focus on what’s going on with him. As I posted above, I interpret his current “silence” (aside from the writers keeping him quiet) to a combination of not knowing what to do yet, enforced distance to their fight, and not wanting to force a confrontation with Dean and make things worse.
Aaaand@JT: I can buy the brother’s relationship backsliding a bit, though I don’t know if the writers will have time, quite frankly :S. But I can see a scenario where Sam finally does get more into Dean’s face about the MOC and how’s he’s changing, and Dean just lets fly on him. In fact, with all the parallels to S4 and S5 right now, I think they’d almost have to do that in the next couple of episodes.
@121, Jaytee, I agree. The only positive note for me is that it seems every time MOCDean has become murderously enraged, it’s been because someone has hurt his brother. So maybe even under the influence of the MOC, Dean can’t become angry enough at Sam to kill him.
@121 Yeah, I think the mark of Cain storyline has been a tough one to balance. I think Jensen probably enjoyed stuff like what was in First Born but other than that the mark of Cain has predominately been a symptom of how Dean’s relationship is with his brother.
Sam’s demon blood storyline on the other hand was very complex. There were so many different motivations and outside influences like the angels and demons jerking the Winchesters around. I can see why Jensen enjoyed that storyline, it also gave Dean a lot to work with.
Jaytee, I get a feeling another atonement moment is coming for Sam… Wtf is the possession story even about at this point?
@123 JT. Personally, I don’t want Dean to turn into a demon or anything like that.
@124 San Summer, I couldn’t agree more. Most of the series has centered on Sam under threat of going demonic/Satanic/soulless. Now that Sam’s finally himself, we have Dean under the same threat? We’ve had years of Sam and Dean bickering and sniping at one another when they weren’t arguing or coming to blows. Now will Dean kill Sam or the reverse? We’ve had years of finales of Sam and Dean taking turns dying and/or going to another world, then coming back again. Now will we have one or the other dying and taking the stairway to heaven?
Sometimes I think this series has only two writers: Been There and Done That.
@125 JT. Yeah, why the demon blood storyline worked well was because it was completely new territory for the brothers. There had always been some conflict but they had never been at odds like that. But it continued on till season 5 (I remember many wondered when they would ever make up considering it was the end of the five season plan!), then Sam was soulless and Dean hated that, there was a short honeymoon period before Cas broke Sam’s wall etc. And of course season 8 and now most of season 9. Brothers being SamnDean would be pretty unique at this point.
@ Jaytee #123: This is what JA said about playing the MoC according to the Fangasm site:
“A fan asked whether it was harder to play Dean as a hero or as the darker character he’s been this season. Jensen said that what’s actually most difficult is to play both sides of Dean and yet maintain continuity so that you’re still playing the same character.”
This is the difference in JP and JA, IMO. JA fights for Dean’s character and always attempts to keep Dean in character, despite some of the atrocious dialogue he is given. JP does seem to like to play the different versions we’ve seen of Sam and that leads to not knowing what version of Sam we will see in any given season. For me, that is a major problem when I invest in a character, as I did Sam from S1 – S3. It was S4 where I started losing interest in Sam and Swan Song capped it off for me, then Soulless Sam, Hallucinating Sam, Hellpain Sam, TrialSam, GadSam, and now PissedSam.
Another blogger defined it well, I think. The difference between Sam’s demon blood (S4) story and the MoC is that the first three seasons, the demon blood was thrust upon Sam, but he was still making heroic choices (like trying to save Dean from his crossroads deal) but rejected the responsibility for evil the demon blood put into him. That was okay with me, because I could clearly see that the demon blood was not Sam’s fault.
With the Ruby storyline, Sam turned away from Dean, blamed Dean, listened to Ruby while making bad choices and he did not take responsibility for his actions. Throw on top of that all the different versions of Sam and you have a character that was ruined for me.
In Dean’s MoC story, where Dean went wrong is that he took it on because of utter despair. He felt he had nothing to lose by doing so and could kill Abaddon. His mistake was in thinking it was a powerful weapon like the Colt, and he did not care at that point if it would even kill him.
Dean did not realize and didn’t think that the
Mark could change him internally and; thus, make him “special” like Sam was special. Dean thinks of himself as ordinary, never as something ‘special,’ yet he is now a supernatural being, just as Sam was a supernatural being with the demon blood. Don’t forget that Dean also thinks of himself as nothing but a killer, no better than the things he kills.
Now, where this leads, I have no idea, but I think that JA will fight to keep Dean’s character as something recognizable, even if he goes dark; whereas, I don’t think JP fought for Sam’s character and was just excited to have the acting challenges.
@ San Summer: I don’t want Dean to be a demon either, and I don’t know how he could get there at this point, because demons are supposed to be human souls whose humanity was corrupted after hundreds of years of torture in Hell. Cain went to Hell and, as I understand it, that’s where he turned into a demon.
I don’t know where the writers are taking this, and I don’t know how they plan for Dean to ever get rid of the thing. My hope has always been, with this storyline, that they don’t ruin Dean’s character like they ruined Sam’s.
I would welcome seeing the Sam from PoNR, but I have serious doubts about these writers — especially since none of them have probably even watched that episode…even though Carver wrote it. PoNR and Dark Side of the Moon are at the top of my list for favorite dramatic SPN episodes.