“King of the Damned” Discussion

Post your thoughts on tonight’s episode that gets back to important things like Metatron, Abaddon, Crowley and the First Blade. Click HERE for my full recap or keep reading for my quick thoughts.

Wow. Now THAT’S an episode of Supernatural, and if this is a sign of the endgame, the last two episodes are going to be terrific.


I loved so many things about this episode, from the comedy to the darkness to a major character being killed.


Let’s start with the death. Abaddon is finally gone, but she went out in style. The actual death scene, with her raised in the air as Dean impaled her with the First Blade, was beautiful and a fittingly epic ending for a long-time villain.


And everything that led up to it? So now the Mark of Cain gives Dean super, maybe even demonic, powers. The look of dread in Abaddon’s eyes when Dean somehow faught back against her was fantastic. I’m sticking with my “Dean is becoming a demon” theory (like a reversal of Crowley becoming human),


All of the scenes between Crowley, Abaddon and his son, Gavin, were hilarious. The moment when Gavin guessed that they were both angels and Crowley and Abaddon, in unison, responded with “Wow” made me laugh harder than anything this season.


My big question is this: Sam said that altering with the past can have major time ripples in the future. Since Gavin is sticking around in the 21st century, does this mean big problems ahead? I feel like the ramifications of that event might be a set-up for the big story arc of season 10.


Then there’s “Commander Cas.” I hope I’m not alone in thinking that Cas staged the assassin attack himself just so he could blame it on Metatron and trick Gadreel into working with him. Given all the double-crossing and triple-crossing Crowley did, it made me suspicious.


Overall, this was a superb episode and a great way to lead us into the final arc of season 9. Now that Hell is dealt with, we can focus on Heaven.

News posted on May 6, 2014 Comments (270)


  1. I’ll start off the comments. Hello, DarkDean! I thought it was a great episode and cannot believe it was written by the Nepotism Duo.

    Finally, a mytharc episode.

    Everything with Dean and the Blade was awesome.
    The scene with Abbadon and Dean raised was incredible.

    Alaina Huffman was really good again, and I’m sorry she’s gone.

    Mark S. gave another incredibly good performance.

    I was really happy that Dean, even going dark, was very much in character. Good job, JA.

    No Metatron in this episode — yea!!

    What I didn’t like:

    Despite Mark’s great performance, I don’t care about Crowley or his kid. Both Crowley and Cas’ characters were created as foils to the Winchesters, and I see no reason or have any interest in developing them further into something more.

    I thought Misha’s performance was incredibly weak and showed his limit as an actor. I remain uninterested in him or his angel story. I was happy, though, that the writers remembered that Dean was a torturer in Hell. Finally, an SPN writer remembered.

    I was happy that we saw Tahmoh again. Even though the angel story just isn’t working this season, I remain interested in Gadreel’s character. I just don’t think it’s going anywhere.

    Overall, I was very happy with the episode, though.

    Comment by Sheri — May 6, 2014 @ 6:54 pm

  2. Very much enjoyed the battle between Dean and Abbadon. Finally got to see just what the Mark of Cain could do. And I was glad it took real effort on Dean’s part to finally get the blade in his control and use it for what it is meant to be used.

    I also liked at the very end of the episode when Dean said- firmly- “No” to Sam’s suggestion of storing away the Blade. We saw no aftereffects of the Blade on Dean in this episode and if he had just said “Ok” to Sam at the end I would have been pissed. The MOC is not something that should just come and go and I am glad to see it is not letting go of Dean.

    Bored to Death with the Crowley/Abbadon/Gavin story. I-Do-Not-Care. And after Sam firmly told Crowley how letting his son live and altering history would effect EVERYTHING on the planet- Gavin is just let go? I hope there is going to be a negative outcome from that after the episode with the Titanic.

    The Angel story is very weak and non-interesting. I am one of those who have no use for Gadreel- although I do believe he intended to do the right thing in the beginning. But he killed Kevin so he should have no lifespan on this show. Unless he brings Kevin back to life.

    Now I know Dean told Sam “No” when he suggested hiding the Blade. However if Sam really does have concerns about what it is doing to Dean he should hide the Blade anyway. Well that is what the Sam from the first seasons of the show would do. This Sam is the same one who told Dean they could not work together as brothers and that he would not save his brother as his brother had saved him. So he probably not even try to hide the Blade on his own.
    Hopefully more of the Winchesters next week and less supporting cast.

    Comment by SL — May 6, 2014 @ 7:06 pm

  3. I thought this episode was just okay.

    Way too much time was spent on Crowley and his son. Those scenes were clearly included to pad the episode and fill the requisite 40 minutes or so they need to satisfy. A lot of that could have been cut down.

    I thought the angel the boys interrogated wasn’t very angelic. When the angels were first introduced in S4, they were depicted as really powerful, wise beings. They seemed beyond human emotions. This angel really seemed like a loser to me, and that threw me out of the scene. I didn’t feel like I was watching an angel, but rather some poor shmoe trying to attract the “in” crowd. I don’t know. It didn’t feel real. I don’t believe an angel – as they’ve been presented on this show – would act the way he did. That said, I thought the way Sam and Dean got the info out of him was smart and didn’t require much effort on their part.

    Cas and Gadreel – I’m pretty indifferent on this plot. I don’t care about the angel civil war or if Gadreel joins Castiel. That’s just not an arc that interests me.

    I am happy that Dean talked more about the MoC and how it makes him feel. I have been mentioning that scenes of Dean staring into the mirror or getting drunk aren’t enough to tell a story, and here, we actually got some words about how he felt. I enjoyed the scene of Dean killing Abbadon, and I like how he wouldn’t stop stabbing her. For me, this was the only important thing that happened during the episode.

    Sam – Don’t have much to say about Sam. He’s just there. I guess Sam has reflected on the time he was possessed and NOW recognizes he felt there was another presence in him?!?! Is that the story?!?! What was that about? As far as I understood it, Sam had NO idea another entity was possessing his body so how could he tell Castiel anything about Gadreel and his intentions.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 6, 2014 @ 7:28 pm

  4. I liked the episode, especially after last week’s non-show. I thought the interrogation scene, as well as Sam bursting in on Dean after killing Abbadon were both good examples of Sam being the only one who is able to calm Dean down once he starts to get violent.

    While I did enjoy how easily the King of Hell’s son could suddenly accept being a Prince of Hell, even though they supposedly hated each other in life, I would be a little surprised if Gavin is ever seen again. It seems like that could be something they let go; he didn’t really have a further role in the past, so his suddenly disappearing isn’t going to change anything.

    I also liked that Gadreel’s initial sympathetic back story wasn’t just tossed aside. I’d rather see him shown as a pawn for Metatron than just evil.

    My main sticking point, though, was Dean essentially telling Sam that he still doesn’t see him as a full partner; he was a liability who might have gotten caught and then used as a bargaining chip. I actually laughed during that scene; I would have preferred Dean say he was afraid he’d get too caught up in the feeling the Mark gives him, and he might have gone after Sam for hurting him. That would have made a little more sense to me.

    Comment by Sarah — May 6, 2014 @ 7:38 pm

  5. To me, the best parts of the episode were the scenes between Sam and Dean. I also enjoyed the exchanges between Crowley and Gavin. But it’s becoming increasingly obvious that the MOC plot is as pointless as it is sensational. It seems to have no other purpose that to turn Dean into a crazed, blood-soaked killer, perhaps to make murderous Castiel look better. As for the angels, they were as tedious, platitudinous, and altogether as out-of-place as ever.

    Comment by JT — May 6, 2014 @ 8:25 pm

  6. Love tonight’s episode den is going desk side Sam is all alone in this he can’t relie on dean I think it’s time to bring back papa Winchester it’s long over do and the only way to stop dean bobby maybe but john needs to come back it is time

    Comment by Jessica — May 6, 2014 @ 8:53 pm

  7. THIS is the episode you people like!?!? This episode was crap! CRAP! CRAP!

    We had to sit through 37 minutes of GossipGirl-esq nonsense, just for a single, awesome scene between Dean & Abbadon.

    Firstly, what the hell was the point of Crawley’s son? It was a completely pointless storyline that went nowhere and took screen time away from the main characters. Was it really worth a few chuckles?

    Second, this episode simply discarded storylines in the same vein as season 6 did. It bothered me that the whole Malaki storyline was dropped with just ONE word. Likewise, we never got to see Abaddon use her demon army from “Mother’s Little Helper.”

    Third, the angel interrogation at the beginning (and the stupidity of that angel being interrogated) was just too much to believe.

    Finally, WHY ON EARTH did Sam & Dean let Crawley live??? It makes absolutely no sense that they would just walk away. I’m all for Crawley surviving, but that scene should have been written so that Crawley escapes somehow (or is rescued).

    Comment by JJA — May 6, 2014 @ 9:10 pm

  8. Awesome scene, DEAN killing Abaddon… after a long time, the real supernatural was shown. I loved this episode.

    Comment by sushant — May 6, 2014 @ 9:12 pm

  9. This story has some juice in it, i mean, why did dean and sam left that crawley suddenly. They had their shot. They would have taken it. I mean, dean did had that first blade in his hands, he would have easily got crawley right infront of his son…

    Comment by sushant — May 6, 2014 @ 9:16 pm

  10. Alright, so here’s a theory for you all:
    The blade will succeed in turning Dean into a demon.
    Sam will have to ‘cure’ him, thus finishing out the trials and shutting the gates of Hell.

    Well, maybe not. But it was a pretty decent episode this week. Looking forward to the season finale.

    Comment by whosong — May 6, 2014 @ 10:12 pm

  11. Great episode. One of the best this season. And the last few episodes seem to be great as well. Next week Tessa the reaper back, can’t wait.

    Comment by Robin — May 6, 2014 @ 11:31 pm

  12. Well your comments r making me impatient….
    I can’t wait for the episode to be downloaded.. :-)

    Comment by Warah — May 7, 2014 @ 1:04 am

  13. JJA – I hear ya. I didn’t think the episode was pure crap as you did but I certainly didn’t think it was “good” by any means. I am not a fan of the multiple unconnected storylines in one episode. It gives J2 time off, but it makes for a disjointed show, IMO. I saw the Crowley/Gavin scenes as time fillers. They had to pad the episode w/something, and that something certainly wasn’t going to be w/Sam and Dean so we got Crowley and his son arguing, and Castiel and Gadreel talking.

    To be honest, I don’t recall who Malachai is. Was that the angel fighting Bart? I guess he died. I also hated MLH so I didn’t even remember what that episode was about, but maybe Abbadon’s demon army was made up of the demons Crowley was talking to in the beginning?!?!


    JT – I’m having the same issue w/the MoC story. I was extremely happy to hear Dean verbalize his feelings, but the story, itself, does seem a bit aimless. Cain said the MoC came w/a big price, and we don’t know what that was. No one has researched it or asked Cas or tracked down Cain to ask. None of that makes any sense for our hunters.


    Whosong – Apparently, Jensen’s thought on the final script was, “Wow. They went there. Wow,” so maybe Dean kills Sam and becomes a demon or something. I’m not sure how long that would last on the show though.

    I want to reserve judgment but the first of the last three episodes was just all. I hope they can surprise and excite me w/the other two episodes.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 7, 2014 @ 3:15 am

  14. I was a pretty decent episode.
    Abaddon noooo! Man, I really liked her (or better said, I love Alaina Huffman). The scene was cool and I knew she wasn’t gonna survive the season, but I was hoping to keep her until the season finale. Mainly, because the MoC/killing Abaddon was the most interesting storyline this year for me. Now that it’s over we are stuck with the tedious angel story again.

    @Lisa1:”When the angels were first introduced in S4, they were depicted as really powerful, wise beings. They seemed beyond human emotions. This angel really seemed like a loser to me, and that threw me out of the scene. I didn’t feel like I was watching an angel, but rather some poor shmoe trying to attract the “in” crowd. I don’t know. It didn’t feel real.”

    -Right?? I am re-watching the entire series for the 100th time (what can I say, I love how this show used to be) and man, the angels were sooo cool when they were introduced! They were mysterious, scary, imponent, arrogant, badass sons of the bitches. Now they are just stupid. The interrogation scene would have been cool IF the one interrogated weren’t an angel.

    I am one of the few who liked knowing about Crowley. I don’t give a shit about his son, but I liked to know more things about him and the effects of the blood. Crowley is the ONLY secondary character that still interests me.

    And about the brothers… Dean still wants to protect Sam by not treating him like an equal and all Sam can see is that his brother thinks he’s gonna screw things up. What else is new? I know they don’t wanna give a resolution to their issues just yet, but come on, this is getting ridiculous.

    Comment by emmanuel — May 7, 2014 @ 3:19 am

  15. Emmanuel – Dean didn’t send Sam to the basement to protect him though. I got the idea that Dean sent Sam to the basement b/c he didn’t want Sam interrupting him. He wanted to kill Abbadon w/o Sam getting in the way.

    Yeah . . . that angel they tortured was a pretty sad depiction of an angel. Really sad. No angel has ever been written like him, which is why I found his characterization off.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 7, 2014 @ 3:59 am

  16. @Lisa1: I remember that Sam said something like “You did that to protect me?” (I don’t remember the exact words) So maybe I’m wrong, but I think that “getting in the way” is being worried for Sam’s safety or being worried about Abaddon using Sam to distract him. This is Dean after all.

    The problem is not that particular angel, the problem is that since season 6 almost all the angels introduced are increasingly stupid. I remember when even Ruby was scared of them.

    Comment by emmanuel — May 7, 2014 @ 4:20 am

  17. I had the same reaction I often do with this writing pair. When the episode ended I was like – hey that was great! Then I start thinking about it and within half an hour I’m like wow – that was bad. Fumbled storylines, trashed canon, bad dialogue, unintentional retcons, (like if Gavin doesn’t go back then everything from season six on can is retconn’d – which I would actually love, but this seems more like ND screwing up than a new direction for the show), and an anticlimactic end to a great villain. Plus the MoC just makes Dean ‘calm’? Really?
    I did like when Sam and Dean turned into Mean Girls – it was completely inconsistent with Dean being out of control and utterly unbelievable as an interrogation technique…but hey, it was entertaining. Oh yeah, and a good reminder to those in fandom who think they can speak for the cast that they’re delusional.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — May 7, 2014 @ 4:33 am

  18. Sorry, I’m sure I should know the answers to these questions, but I don’t! Is “Poughkeepsie” Winchester bros. code for “drop everything and run”? If so, in what episode was that code word used and how would Crowley know about it?

    Comment by JT — May 7, 2014 @ 5:03 am

  19. The cast can speak perfectly for themselves. I never put words in anyones mouth. If you are bitter about what they say, be mad at them, not at those who only repeat their words. Delusional is not wanting believe that they said what they said despite of the fact that it’s recorded and you can hear it from their own mouths. Accept the truth and deal with it like a grown up.

    Comment by emmanuel — May 7, 2014 @ 5:06 am

  20. It wasn’t a bad episode, certainly better than the crap we’ve been getting for the past few epps.
    But did anyone else think that when Cas called Sam aside, he was gonna ask him how Dean was acting? If he is such a good friend of Dean’s where was his concern?And it didn’t make sense to me that back at the time Sam was possessed he had no clue but now he can remember’sharing housing” with Gadreel?
    The other thing that I thought was WTF was Gadreel speaking warmly of how Sam feeling that Cas was trustworthy. WHAT? Sam is so completely trusting of Cas, of all people? It was only a couple of seasons ago that Cas deliberately, BEFORE he had gone nuts after swallowing the souls,broke Sam’s mind and almost killed him! I’ll say it again,it follows that he will be able, then, to at some point trust Dean again.
    I have to give Jared props, he was funny as hell in that interrogation scene, as was Jensen.
    Dean’s MOC storyline isn’t over just because he killed Abaddon. On the contrary, it, looks like it is just getting started, as his bloodlust is growing and there’s no foreseeable way to get rid of the mark. I don’t think he’ll kill Sam, indeed the fandom would go crazy if that happened, and I know I myself really don’t want that to happen, but since Cas’s borrowed grace is fading, it’s possible that Metatron pulls that same Colette trick that Abaddon did, and somehow possesses Cas then tricks Dean into thinking he’s killing him but then pulls out and Cas dies instead, not that I want Cas to die either.

    Comment by roxi — May 7, 2014 @ 5:27 am

  21. @18-I’m pretty sure Dean told Crowley to say that to Sam when he was in Sam’s head so he’d know Crowley wasn’t just part of the dream Gadreel placed Sam in.

    Comment by roxi — May 7, 2014 @ 5:30 am

  22. @17- What in the world are you talking about when you say that people are putting words in the cast’s mouths and that they’re delusional? Is this a Destiel thing again?

    Comment by roxi — May 7, 2014 @ 5:32 am

  23. @17- Well, if Cas is in love with Dean, he certainly didn’t demonstrate it in this episode, not even showing the slightest concern for the mark or what it may be doing to Dean.
    I liked the fact that Sam now finally seems to be worried about what the mark is doing to Dean.

    Comment by roxi — May 7, 2014 @ 5:35 am

  24. @21 Thanks, roxi. How do you suppose “Poughkeepsie” would translate to “get Sam out of the way because he might be used as a bargaining chip”–or however Dean interpreted the word? Sam seemed to know what “Poughkeepsie” meant, too, but he seemed to interpret it to mean that his brother was trying to protect him.

    I wish I had more to say about the episode than this sort of thing. I did like the graveyard scene. Hellhounds are such fun!

    Comment by JT — May 7, 2014 @ 5:39 am

  25. @24 – I think it was Crowley’s only way of telling Dean it was a trap and Abbadon would be waiting. Dean then took that knowledge and sent Sam elsewhere, so he could fight Abbadon alone without Sam possibly interfering.

    Comment by Sarah — May 7, 2014 @ 5:45 am

  26. Off to a bad start with the Winchesters as Castiel’s gofers, but Dabb says he cannot imagine SPN without Castiel and Glass can imagine SPN without J2 so I guess their Castiel story must get the first segments of episodes. There was something to watch however. The Winchesters proved competent at interrogation and a considerable part of the second half actually featured the Winchesters hunting and even killing a key demon. Sorry the kill was Abaddon, but I guess characters who can convey true evil must be eliminated on SPN where all characters must be a muddled mixture of good and evil. Congrats to Alaina Huffman; I’ll actually take note of this actors future roles. She proved an actor can make bad writing believable. Can’t really write a soap unless murderers and felons can be transformed instantly into innocent victims and loving beings. Bad boys have to transform into love interest and good boys must become defendants in murder cases. That’s called character development on soaps.
    Much of the last half actually focused on Dean and the Mark of Cain. Jensen as usual shined and made 10 minutes of the episode worth viewing. Dean of course lied to Sam while referring to him as Sammy again. And, there was an in-the-Impala J2 exchange that revealed nothing about the Winchester relationship except that the writers have no idea what that relationship is. That relationship is not important any longer in Carver’s angel story. Apparently paying any attention to the Dean/Sam story is a string-along afterthought to keep some of the old viewers (over 15) watching.
    Crowley was deliciously devious and Sam continues to be a prop in the background. Almost criminal to keep Jared apart from his two kids for his cameo role in SPN any longer. Sheppard has been so on target with his character this year I guess the Dabb/Glass team must get rid of him because of age and the need to CWize SPN so they’ve introduced a Prince of Hell to take his place with a young actor who seems to have escaped from 18th century version of Bloodlines. Looks like setting the DVR for 9:30-10:00 or 9:45-10:00 makes sense in the future to record something about the Winchesters for the rest of season 9. Sadly, I enjoyed this one more than most in season 9. Thanks again Jensen.

    Comment by CaseyT — May 7, 2014 @ 6:00 am

  27. @25- I think it was both: Dean was afraid for Sam’s safety but he also didn’t want to risk him getting grabbed by Abaddon, because, and he even said this, she would have used Sam as a bargaining chip and we know full well if Sam’s life is in danger Dean is gonna throw in the towel.
    I wish Alaina could have stayed around longer though. She was proof, especially to those who are used to seeing 20 year old baby actresses on the CW, that an actual, adult woman can also be hotter than hell, gorgeous, plus, a 20 year old starlet could have never pulled off those one-liners as well. And Alaina is the mother of FOUR young children, one of whom is still a baby. And still looks like THAT. Excuse me while I go find a rock to stick my head under.
    And God love em, I gotta say it. How stupid are our beautiful boys? Turning their backs on Crowley when he went to say goodbye to Gavin? For real?
    I love em, but it’s almost a running joke in fandom about the boys legendary functioning moron status LOL.

    Comment by roxi — May 7, 2014 @ 6:01 am

  28. Guys, I know this has nothing to do with the episode, but anyone knows if Revolution is going to end soon? I don’t watch that show, but I heard somewhere that it’s gonna end soon. Anyone knows about it?
    Because it would be great if Kripke comes back to fix this mess and this would give me hope.

    Comment by emmanuel — May 7, 2014 @ 6:09 am

  29. I’d have to go back and watch but I know a code word was used in S2 in the second episode with Gordon. I’m not sure if it was “Poughkeepsie” though. I do remember Sam telling that girl that the use of the word meant someone had a gun on Dean, and that Dean was in trouble.

    This season, Dean instructed Crowley to use the word “Poughkeepsie” once he was in Sam’s mind because then Sam would know there was trouble.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 7, 2014 @ 6:16 am

  30. I liked this episode, especially after last week’s awful one!

    I loved the dynamic of the angel interrogation, it felt like the “old’ Sam and Dean, but I agree, the angels used to be portrayed as badass characters, they have watered them down too much!

    I used to love Cas, now I am barely interested in his storyline, he clearly doesn’t really care about the MoC or Dean’s mental headspace right now and I could care less about Metatron! I’m a bit indifferent about Gadreel.

    I was a bit surprised that Abbaddon was killed off this episode, I really thought it would end with a bit longer, drawn out scene in the finale. I think Dean distracted Sam in order to ensure that he would be alone with Abbaddon. It also was a classic Dean move, to protect Sam. It has been shown several times that Sam is the only person that can draw Dean away from the effects of the blade- hell, they showed it again, after Sam showed up in the end.

    I liked the emotion Sam showed while witnessing Dean stabbing Abbaddon, as well as his demeanor in the car. It made me feel like he still does care, and is not simply a “partner,” but a brother.

    Please, please don’t let the finale be DarkDean killing Sam. It would sort of break my heart and trash Dean’s character in my opinion. I don’t care if he comes close to killing him, if they part on bad terms, if Dean leaves with Crowley after not being able to kill him, I don’t care about all of that- just don’t let him kill Sam. Maybe Tessa will be the one to finally call Dean out on his shit, although it seems a bit pathetic. If anyone was to do that, it should be Sam, Cas, even Jody!

    Comment by sarahd — May 7, 2014 @ 6:18 am

  31. @29- I think it was funkytown.

    Comment by roxi — May 7, 2014 @ 6:20 am

  32. @Lisa1, the key word Dean used when he was captured by Gordon was “funky town” (if I’m remembering right). Sam explained to Ava that it’s the word they use when someone has a gun on them.

    Comment by emmanuel — May 7, 2014 @ 6:23 am

  33. @30- Agreed, I too want it to always be Sam that can pull Dean back and vice/versa.This was the first episode that we had Sam voicing his concern for Dean about that mark, not fear of what Dean might do to others, or that he might become a monster, but real concern about what might happen to HIM. And that to me showed that, underneath all the anger and tension and bullshit that’s gone down between them, Sam STILL loves Dean. And that’s what makes my fangirl(old woman) heart happy.

    Comment by roxi — May 7, 2014 @ 6:31 am

  34. But I really don’t believe Dean will kill Sam. For one thing, why? Sam’s not a monster or evil being.
    And mainly, NOBODY, not even fans who hate Sam, want to see this happen.
    So if Dean does kill a cast member, it might be Cas, unintentionally. But I don’t don’t think that will happen either.

    Comment by roxi — May 7, 2014 @ 6:36 am

  35. @roxi: “And mainly, NOBODY, not even fans who hate Sam, want to see this happen.”

    Oh roxi, I wish this were true. Sadly, I’ve witnessed Sam haters wishing Dean murdering his brother more times that I can count. They want Sam and Jared out of the show, and they want Dean to be the one who kills him. Some people just don’t get what this show is about.

    Comment by emmanuel — May 7, 2014 @ 6:45 am

  36. @ Emmanuel #28: Revolution is on the “probably will be cancelled” watchlist. I have been DVR’g it and watching the episodes since Edlund moved over, and I like it. I don’t know what it’s supposed to be about (something about science and such), and I don’t like ensemble casts, but the acting on that show is really good. The reason I decided to check it out when Edlund moved is because NBC had let Kripke bring in some very good and experienced writers to try to save the show and I miss the snappy dialogue on SPN. Kripke actually lifts (or uses) dialogue like the earlier SPN shows, and that keeps me going back.

    Carver has a contract through the 10th season, and since the ratings remain good for SPN, there is no way in hell I think they will bring Kripke back. I can’t believe I am saying this after Kripke lost interest in the show early on in S5 to the point of letting someone else write his big 5-year arc finale, but I wished he would come back, too. At least he was obsessive about paying attention to detail, characterization, and canon — either that or Kim Manners was.

    @ JT #18: “Poughkeepsie” is the Winchester word for a trap. From Road Trip.

    DEAN: “Poughkeepsie.” It’s our go word. It means “drop everything and run.”

    Prior to this one being made up, the code word was “funky town,” (Hunted 2.10) in which Sam told Ava meant that someone had a gun on them.

    He gave me a codeword. Someone’s got a gun on him.


    Yeah. Funkytown.

    @ Lisa1 #15: I agree with you that Dean didn’t send Sam to the basement to “protect” him. What he said he did it for was to keep Abaddon from grabbing Sam and using him as a bargaining chip to keep Dean from killing her. It was a smart thing to do. It also made Sam look whiny and dumb for instantly going to the “you were protecting me again” thing.

    As Dean said, with the Blade, he is unstoppable, and I am looking forward to some rampaging Dean (says hopefully) in the next two episodes.

    Comment by Sheri — May 7, 2014 @ 7:59 am

  37. Oh, on a side note: I just had to do it — time the Js scenes, because they seemed to be in this one a lot. The J2s were in this episode 18.59 minutes including 2nd camera shots of the other characters they were interacting with at the time and the time each of them were shown alone. Amazing amount these days.

    With 20 minutes figured for commercials, that leaves leaves 21.41 minutes for the Crowley/Son and Cas/Gadreel scenes.

    While I liked the episode in general, the entire Crowley/Son scenes were filler and there only to expand on Crowley as a character in line with Carver building an ensemble cast. I. JUST. DON’T. CARE. about Crowley backstory or his stupid son. All I need to know about Crowley is that he is a foil to the Winchesters, and I don’t need to know anything else about Cas.

    I thought Misha did a terrible job acting this episode, as is always the case when Misha is off on his own and in his own scenes. I do like Gadreel. He is the only angel I have any interest in seeing this season.

    From a writing standpoint, this script had a LOT of problems. From a viewing standpoint, I liked it. For instance, did anyone notice that now normal humans who have not sold their soul and their time has come can hear hellhounds now?

    Or how about that timeline. Here is what I read from a poster on another board, and I thought it was hilarious:

    “Crowley leaves Gavin in the 21st century, so he doesn’t go down with the ship en route to America. Gavin doesn’t go down with the ship, his signet ring doesn’t end up at the bottom of the sea which doesn’t get salvaged and displayed in the maritime museum, which means Rufus won’t steal it so that Bobby can interrogate Gavin’s spirit about Crowley’s true identity which means he can’t use Crowley’s bones as leverage to gain his soul back which means Bobby can’t get out of his deal with Crowley which means he goes straight to Hell when Dick Roman kills him and doesn’t become a ghost so he can help Sam and Dean fight the Leviathans which means Sam and Dean are probably killed by the vengeful spirit of Whitman Van Ness which means that with no one to oppose them, the Leviathans go through with their plan to take over the world!”

    I just hope them letting Gavin go doesn’t mean we are looking at an altered timeline 3-year arc and none of it was real.

    And, yes, Dean looked dumb for not killing Crowley right after he killed Abbadon or while Crowley was picking the bullet out of his shoulder, and then for turning their backs on him. Now that Abbadon is dead, there was no reason not to take Crowley out, too, except for the fact that Carver is building an ensemble cast. That aside, I thought Mark S. put on a tremendous performance — especially when compared to Misha’s.

    Comment by Sheri — May 7, 2014 @ 8:12 am

  38. SN is not making much sense to me. For example,

    1) Dean’s fierce determination to kill Abaddon (“whatever the consequences”) seemed to come out of nowhere. But, at least, the MOC had a purpose. What dramatic purpose does it have now?

    Sam’s addiction to demon blood wasn’t OOC because he managed to convince himself he was doing good by using the power of the blood to battle Lilith and her minions. How is Dean justifying his addiction to the blade now that he’s killed Abaddon? The blade makes him feel “calm”? That seems very OOC for Dean to me.

    2) The writers are evidently trying to re-write Castiel still again–this time as a strong, imposing LEADER: hence, the Godzilla- like footfalls as he made his approach; an angel’s frightened exclamation, “Is that….HIM?”; the dramatic, shadowy appearance of the mysterious figure in the doorway (by golly, I think that was even a darker, more serious trench coat!); the busy war room with the Commander in Chief clearly in charge; and, of course, the obligatory fight sequence showing that God’s own chosen Protector of Paradise had nothing on the Mighty Warrior, Castiel! (Those quick cuts can do wonders in a fight sequence.)

    Now, it was made clear that this mass murderer and sadist who served as an accessory to Crowley’s malicious torture of monsters and happily engaged in inflicting such pain himself has become a PEACEFUL LEADER who wants no more angel on angel violence. So, naturally, he wouldn’t inflict harm even of a spiritual variety on Metatron’s follower–nor would he permit one of his own toadies to do it.

    Instead, he called upon his HUMAN THUGS–the Winchesters–to torture information out of the captive–much as he used the shattered Dean to torture information out of Alastair. Furthermore, Castiel decided that what his cause needs is a new ally. So who does he choose? A vicious killer of humans who murdered the Winchesters’ friend, lied to Dean, manipulated the brothers, and made life hell for Sam–in other words, someone just like himself. SN has only cleaned up Castiel by getting him a new coat.

    3) Ever since Dean got the MOC, he and, eventually, Sam have been busy combing through Men of Letters’ records searching everywhere for Abaddon. Evidently, the writers couldn’t figure out a way for them to find her, so she saved everybody the trouble by showing up on her own.

    And why did she show up? Because this ASTONISHINGLY POWERFUL VILLAIN–THIS AMAZINGLY ELUSIVE QUEEN OF HELL–couldn’t kill the Winchesters herself. What? Not even by planting a bomb in Baby so the boys would be blown to smithereens when they went for takeout? Guess not. So, first she travelled back in time and space to transport Crowley’s closest relation to the present. Second, she captured the King of Rotten and made him an offer his human tainted blood wouldn’t let him refuse. Third, she had Crowley call the boys (Did she demand the call be put on speaker? No. What a trusting soul!).
    And what was the purpose of this call? Did she tell Crowley to instruct the boys to meet him in an alley off Fifth and Main so she and her minions could be waiting to slaughter our defenseless humans? Nope. She wanted Crowley to tell the Winchesters where to find THE ONE AND ONLY WEAPON ON EARTH THAT COULD KILL HER–AND BRING IT TO HER DIGS WHERE SHE WOULD BE WAITING WITH NO BACK UP WHATSOEVER.

    But maybe this wasn’t one of the silliest, most contrived episodes ever. Maybe I just missed something.

    Comment by JT — May 7, 2014 @ 8:30 am

  39. @Sheri OMG, you’re right about Gavin’s ring! I forgot about that! God, is so hard for these writers to go to SPN wiki and look for information about Crowley and his relationship with his son? Or maybe Gavin will return to his time at some point?

    I remember people complaining about that time when Dean first travelled back in time in season four, but luckily, John and Mary’s memories of Sam and Dean were erased by Michael in season five. But this was when there was a good writing team.

    Comment by emmanuel — May 7, 2014 @ 9:01 am

  40. Underwhelming episode. I expected a lot more for the much talked about episode 21. The fight between Abaddon and Dean was unintentionally comical. Too much Gavin and Crowley.

    Good stuff: insight into how it was for Sam when he was possessed and I liked the angel who wore a burgundy outfit.

    Further proof that in Dean’s eyes Sam has been reduced to some weird version of “Sammy”.

    Comment by San Summer — May 7, 2014 @ 9:16 am

  41. Once upon a time ‘Sammy” was a term of endearment. Now? Its to remind Sam that he is less then Dean…a snot mosed younger brother who is good for nothing and must be protected lest he trip adn breaks his kneck.

    WHY does Dean want Sam with him again? Right…so he can play hero and marter.

    Comment by Kari — May 7, 2014 @ 9:47 am

  42. Strange. I really liked the episode at first, but when I started thinking about it… so many things didn’t make sense, as some of you have pointed out.

    Another thing which bothered me. Didn’t Dean at one point say, “Cant’ get over the fact that Crowley has a son!”, or something like that? What happened to the entire season 6 episode, apart from the whole ‘ship going down thing’? Dean lost his memory? I don’t know if the writers can make such a big mistake. But it was the same actor playing him, no? Totally confused on the whole Crowley’s son thing.

    OK, it was very entertaining for me, but only if watched at a very superficial level, I guess.

    What they’ve brought the fans to is, after showing them such low level stuff with just a few minutes of Winchester time, is that we get all happy that FINALLY we get some mytharc and Dean and Sam action that we don’t even focus too much on how little sense it’s making!


    Comment by Tammy — May 7, 2014 @ 10:33 am

  43. @ San Summer #40 and Kari #41: I can understand why you didn’t like the episode if all you got out of the mytharc was that Dean wants to treat Sam as a pet.

    I take it you missed that Dean is becoming cold, more isolated, and solely focused on the mission; that Sam is very concerned and has now noticed the change in Dean, and that Dean’s “No,” to Sam at the suggestion they hide the Blade away was a shift in the relationship. He sent Sam away because he KNEW he could do kill Abbadon and he didn’t want to be distracted. He knew Sam would charge in with him and that Abbadon was too powerful for Sam to handle; that Sam could be captured and become a distraction. That act and that emphatic “No” at the end clearly shows that Dean no longer considers the Winchesters as ‘working partners.’ He said it himself; he knew when he first held the Blade that he would be unstoppable, and his killing Abaddon showed that he is.

    Did you notice that Cas validated all of Dean’s feelings about himself when he asked him to torture the angel, reminding Dean of his time in Hell. Some friend. Dean acknowledged that and was eager to torture the angel. He’s completely cold-hearted now and Sam has turned in his brother card. Yet, it was Sam’s voice that got through to Dean after he brutally killed Abbadon, and that is the hope in the mythical ‘brother bond.’

    Comment by Sheri — May 7, 2014 @ 11:14 am

  44. @Sheri – uh, but what IS the mission? Like, he didn’t even bother to kill Crowley! Like, what was that about? Wasn’t that the plan? Wasn’t that what Sam explicitly wanted and argued for? Sam was clearly itching to kill him in the last ND episode. Seriously, they aren’t even consistent epi to epi in their own writing. Are they planning to kill Gad? Because Cas just went to a good bit of trouble to recruit him. So there might be a difference of opinion about that – not that the Winchesters can even get to him if he’s spending most of his time in heaven.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — May 7, 2014 @ 11:32 am

  45. @43 Sheri. Re: “too powerful for Sam to handle; that Sam could be captured and become a distraction.”

    This is very much the problem because Sam has taken down Abaddon by himself before. “I knew. And I had to go at it alone, Sammy.” “You could have gotten ‘napped by Abaddon and she could’ve bargained her way out. We couldn’t have afford to screw this up.” This will definitely remind Sam of things that were talked about in the church.


    Dean: — — But I can’t do it without you.

    Sam: You can barely do it with me. I mean, you think I screw up everything I try. You think I need a chaperone, remember?

    Dean: Come on, man. That’s not what I meant.

    Sam: No, it’s exactly what you meant. — —

    And was it really better for Sam to wander to the suite not knowing wtf was happening?

    I think the writing has very deliberately played up Dean using the “Sammy” nickname. It was gone and suddenly came back even though the brothers hadn’t made up so I think it has to do with the mark of Cain. Cain saw his little brother as someone who could not handle himself so he had to take over and go as far as murder him to save him. I don’t think Dean is gonna go that far but I’m sure he is seeing Sam as less capable. They have always been stronger together but now Dean will feel like he works better alone.

    Comment by San Summer — May 7, 2014 @ 12:10 pm

  46. Overall, I liked.

    Dean: OMFG Dean. And it’s gonna get worse. Achieved the main goal (which should mean putting down the Blade, right Dean?) and bumped Abaddon nastily. @JT- Dean took the MOC ostensibly to kill Abaddon to “return a favour” to Crowley, for helping Sam get Gadreel out (whew!). At first. Now, like Sam with the DB, he’s hooked on the power, with a side order of no longer giving a damn what happens to him. And yes, drifting further and further from Sam.

    Sam: Was very well done in this epi (Carver- KEEP THIS SAMMY. This one and MLH Sammy!) I loved how he came up with another way to interrogate the idiot angel and diverted Dean from torturing him (a good plan with Dean even without the MOC). I loved that HE was going to hold the Blade until needed (if reaching into a corpse to take a Blade so your junkie brother won’t isn’t love, I don’t know what is), and I loved that he somehow managed to empathize with Gadreel. When he did find Dean wailing on Abaddon, was he crying?? He looked to me like he was, and I was like, “Dean, you need to stop, Sammy’s crying!” I loved the way he handled Dean the whole episode, talking him down again, and calling him out at the end- but still not pushing too hard on him. Yes, Sam has a sore spot about decisions being made for him in the name of “protection,” esp. when that decision resulted in him walking in on Dean in another rage-coma.

    Cas: I’m kinda WTFing Cas right now. Why exactly did he think Dean “interrogating” anyone was a good idea? He seemed to at least be trying to be compassionate to Sam when talking about Gadreel, but overall…he’s hard to get a bead on right now. Maybe he’s hardening up again due to fighting but he seems inconsistent from the last couple of times we’ve seen him.

    Crowley: Uh, nothing we didn’t know already. Wonder if we’re ever going to see Gavin again? (and some rotten continuity there).

    Comment by Jaytee — May 7, 2014 @ 1:34 pm

  47. @San Summer- I’m having trouble getting a read on the renewed use of “Sammy” as well, since in most other ways the brothers seem to be drifting further apart, not closer, as Dean’s shutting down emotionally. I do think Dean’s using it a bit mockingly lately, like he doesn’t take Sam seriously anymore. It’s an ouch every time I hear it though, since it’s supposed to be an affectionate nickname. It was like when Ruby called Sam “Sammy,” and it bugged the hell out of me.

    Comment by Jaytee — May 7, 2014 @ 1:40 pm

  48. I liked parts of this episode-Sam and Dean – and Dean and Abaddon. When I saw the “angel headquarters” I was like WTF am I watching?? Where did my SPN go? It was weird to me. And the headquarters has the angel tracking that the bunker has?? Ummmm ok-why don’t the brothers use theres?

    Anybody else find it strange that Cas doesn’t seem the least bit concerned about the MOC or the blade and what its doing to Dean?? I mean it would have been a perfect time for Cas to ask Dean and Sam about it when they were in his “office”. And gawd does misha look stupid when he fights -mouth open, face all distorted every hit you can see the fakeness of it. And his acting is just as bad.

    So Sam said he wasn’t possessed. Interesting-then what the hell is he po’d about. If he new something was inside him -then he knew it was healing him right?? That it wasn’t a bad thing. So Sam must be mad about living?? right? Gawd I hate this Sam being po’d at Dean arc. It makes no sense to me at all.

    Dean won’t kill Crowley. Remember the bar scene?? Crowley tested Dean to see if he would save him. Dean did- well the writers wanted you to think that is what Dean was doing when he told that guy to not go in and kill Crowley in the bathroom. At the end Crowley confirmed that is what he was testing. So that’s why Dean let him go.

    I loved loved loved the Dean Abaddon fight. And I loved loved loved Dean and Sams Impala talk. Missed those.

    All in all not a bad episode. Just strange in places. Angel story is just bad-everything about it is bad. From Cas to Metatron to all the angels in between. I don’t know I think a Demon/angel war would have been more interesting than this angel/angel thing. Again its stupid.

    The Crowley story with Abaddon -use the son really?? What about the MOTHER of the son?? What is it with this show and women? Their thinking goes right to the male. The only time a female gets thought of is to kill her. And man if they kill Tessa next week I will throw my shoe at the TV.

    Comment by animal — May 7, 2014 @ 2:10 pm

  49. @ San Summer: The point you make is a valid one, given that this is a rewrite of Sam’s demon blood story. The Blade is Dean’s ‘demon blood,’ and Dean does feel that he is the one with the power now, just as Sam thought Dean was ‘weak’ and held him back in S4. But, Dean’s point that Sam could get captured as a reason to not kill Abbadon was very valid, and it reinforces the point of the episode which was that Dean has decided to be the monster he has always feared it was. He had no problem with torturing the angel or killing Abbadon, and he is no longer is thinking in terms of the ‘working partnership.’ It is my belief that Sam’s disavowing him as a brother has lead Dean to this decision.

    As far as Sam handling Abbadon before, Dean was not there to become a captive. Dean was off with Cas standing around doing nothing and saying nothing, much like Sam wandering around in the basement. (At least he isn’t in the kitchen cooking!)

    Also, in S4, Sam did not listen to anything Dean said in his S4 demon blood story, and that is what you saw here and will see more of, I imagine.

    Now, if I were to nitpick this episode, there is plenty to be said negatively about it. My biggest complaint would be the scene where Dean dropped the Blade and uses “the force” to get it back, and then fights the wind machine to get to Abbadon to make the kill….and I liked that scene.

    My personal preference would have been for Dean NOT to drop the Blade and call upon his own willpower and strength to make the kill, dragging the power of the Blade through the Mark and into himself. That would have been more dramatic, more in character, more exciting to watch, and not a rewrite of Sam’s story.

    I am happy to see Dean struggle with the darkness that the Mark and the Blade brings to him, but I think a personal internal struggle would have been so much better than a rewrite of Sam’s story.

    As it is, they made a mockery of how frightened Dean was of torturing Alastair in On the Head of a Pin. Dean knows full well what a fine line he walks between being a good guy and being a monster; and even with the Mark’s influence, Dean, in character, would fight that descent into darkness and would try with all his willpower to remain on the side of right. If he doesn’t, then there’s no reason for Dean to continue living, because that is the entire touchstone of his existence; that he knows what’s right and he does it, no matter what it costs him personally. If the writers understood Dean’s character, this is the way they would have taken the story.

    It is the internal struggle where the real drama of this whole story lies, but that is apparently too subtle for these writers and, I dare say, the majority of the viewers. As it is, we live with a writers kindergarten and rewriting already told stories seems to be the height of their talent. At the DC Con this past weekend, Jared said that it’s not the J2s job to decide whether the writing is good or not; it’s their job to make what they are given believable on screen. (This was in response to a question about whether the J2s thought the boys would actually do some of the things the writers have made them do this season).

    Let me reinforce this point. In S4, Sam had justification (not much and too easily given in to) for turning to Ruby. He had no one else, he had failed in saving Dean, and he was afraid. Dean, though, chose to accept the Mark because killing Abaddon had to be done. As we saw, he knew there would be consequences and he knew he would pay for it, but it was a clear choice for him between an evil to himself and an evil to the world. Now that it is becoming clearer to him that he could become an evil to the world with this choice, that is where his dilemma should be centered. Sam has cut him off and there’s no one else and nothing else for him. Dean should be having to decide if he is going to let the Mark immerse him or if he’s going to fight to remain human….especially so, because many fans thought Crowley was going to be Dean’s Ruby, but nothing has been shown to indicate that is the case.

    Another point to make along these lines is the during the angel interrogation scene. Sam stopping Dean from doing a little carving with the sword was the wrong call. Look at that character. He was a stooge; a stooge who would have spilled everything he knew far more quickly if Dean had sliced him just a little bit with the angel blade. As it were, that scene was written for the humor in the episode, and we all knew it.

    Comment by Sheri — May 7, 2014 @ 2:29 pm

  50. @42, Tammy–well said! I’m so happy when we get to see the boys, like you, I try to overlook the downside of the episode–at least until something like that line you quote from Dean crops up, and it all begins to unravel.

    On the other hand, I think there was much to recommend the episode. Most of all, I loved the dynamics between the brothers.

    1) Under ordinary circumstances, Dean would never think of using a machine gun against a wasp, but the MOC is making him hunger for violence. Knowing that, Sam quickly took control of the interrogation, using humor and mockery to deflect Dean’s attention and mollify his anger. It was a masterful play by Sam, and it likely saved Ezra’s life.

    It was sweet and sad how Sam managed to get Dean to join in the game and even laugh a little. We probably won’t be seeing much more of that for quite awhile.

    2) That business about Dean sending Sam to the basement didn’t bother me. On the contrary, I thought it opened the way to a number of possible interpretations. It could be that Dean was trying to protect Sam (as Sam initially thought) or it might have been that Dean’s whole motive was to prevent Sam from being used as a bargaining chip by Abaddon.

    But another possibility is that horribly addicted Dean could barely contain his craving to kill and kill and kill with the Blade. He didn’t want his brother stopping him. And if Sam hadn’t stopped him, Dean would probably have stabbed Abaddon’s meat suit until there was nothing left but ground meat.

    3) After thinking about it, I like what the writers had Dean say about the Blade making him feel “calm.” Obviously, like any addict, he needs his fix to relax. But, in another sense, the Blade may give Dean a sense of peace and security like he’s never known before. For the very first time since he was four years old, he has an unbeatable, magical weapon–something that can protect him and Sammy from any supernatural entity, no matter how powerful. That’s quite a change for someone who’s been scared for his bro and himself for as long as he can remember.

    Dean is calm because the MOC/Blade has made him feel invincible. Of course, he doesn’t yet understand that he’s not in control of the Blade; it’s the other way around. In fact, even Dean’s sense of “calm” suggests the power the MOC/blade is having over his mind. The MOC/Blade takes away his fear, his guilt, his conscience, giving him supreme confidence and making it remarkably easy and enjoyable to kill. (The director was a bit over the top with the sexual overtones of Dean’s stabbing of Abaddon, but the scene did make it clear that for the wielder of the Blade killing is extremely pleasurable.)

    As I think someone’s mentioned and as we saw last night, as Crowley becomes more human, Dean becomes more demonic.

    Comment by JT — May 7, 2014 @ 2:40 pm

  51. @47 Jaytee. Oh yeah, it’s a very loaded word. In Bloodlines it came off as little flippant like you take this Sammy, you’re the little bro although they were in roles that usually require them to act more like authority figures. In this episode it seemed sincere enough but I think it was coming from a troubling place because he was essentially saying he couldn’t trust Sam to hold his own against Abaddon. Slippery slope considering Cain thought “I couldn’t bear to watch him be corrupted” etc.

    @46. Cas thing was weird. It was like he was cleaning his hands from it yet wanted the brothers to do the potentially dirty work for him. That’s him trying to have it both ways.

    Re: “I loved that he somehow managed to empathize with Gadreel.”

    I’m not sure what to make of it. Sam said, “I don’t really know what I felt. Maybe that I wasn’t completely alone.” It felt less “What if there is something wrong with me — something…really wrong?” (9.08) and more “I didn’t feel so alone in the world.” They probably had to go that way. Dean’s abortion/rape joke about Gadreel leaving his grace inside of Sam still confuses me. Did they try to show that on some level Dean knew that possession is a violation but he tried to use humor to deal with the implications? Or did they think it was just a funny joke? It’s probably a good idea to deflect that unfortunate undercurrent.

    I think Gadreel is good relatively speaking but he is playing up the dumb blonde act and when everyone is eating it up, he can strike and take the leadership position.

    Comment by San Summer — May 7, 2014 @ 2:42 pm

  52. awesome episode. But I must say that I am sad to see Abaddon. I like her as the bad guy. definitely felt that they didn’t use enough in this season.

    Uhm so given that Gavin wasn’t on the ship hence didn’t die….how does that effect episode 6.4 “Weekend at Bobby’s” where Bobby uses Gavin ring to summon him and get Crowley to release his soul back to him?

    Comment by SPNFan — May 7, 2014 @ 3:30 pm

  53. Thanks, Roxi and Emmanuel for “funkytown.” I couldn’t remember the code word used in that episode, but the moment I read it, I remembered :-)


    My main pet peeve w/this episode is Sam remembering anything while possessed. The whole point of the Sam possession arc was that Sam didn’t know he was possessed. He had no clue an entity was sharing his body. At no time did he gain any memories about the period when an entity sharing his body so Sam cannot speak about Gadreel or Gadreel’s intentions.

    HE DIDN’T KNOW HE WAS POSSESSED. Sam told Dean he felt fine. Later in the season, he said he felt something was wrong w/him but AT NOT TIME did Sam say he felt like there was another presence in his body. Who wrote this episode? How could that person forget a major plot that happened THIS season?


    If the Blade makes Dean feel calm, I think it would have been creepier to see him calmly stabbing Abbadon. That would have been super creepy and chilling. Imagine Dean w/no emotions on his face . . . just calmly hacking away.


    I forgot to mention that the music leading up to Cas’s entrance was cheesy.


    San Summer – I also thought this episode was underwhelming given the hype it got!

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 7, 2014 @ 3:40 pm

  54. @29 Lisa and @36, thank you for the information. That Poughkeepsie reference really bothered me. Worse, I had to learn to spell it!

    Comment by JT — May 7, 2014 @ 4:03 pm

  55. On a separate Sam-love ramble (sorry, I know it’s annoying and I’ll go away soon), anyone else seen the sneak peak for next week yet? It’s Sam talking to Dean about whether the Blade is *strictly* necessary for their upcoming hunt (for which they have very few details- just a vague message from Cas). You do see his own experience coming through, in that he makes sure not to make it about Dean (who’s doing the standard “it’s not a problem, I’ll leave the damn blade here to make you happy!” addict spiel) He talks about how the Blade is serious magic, that always comes back on them somehow, they still don’t know much about it, etc. And while he shows some slight annoyance in the scene, he’s really quite calm through the whole thing.

    If Sam had talked at all about Dean’s behaviour, it would have put Dean on the defensive. If he’d gotten angry, or tried to force Dean to do things Sam’s way, things would get ugly. If he’d said Dean was scaring him, that Dean was changing, that the Blade was doing things to Dean, that would have likely lead to a fight and Dean trying to hide his behaviour (as Sam did in S4 to dodge Dean’s reactions), or perhaps shooting back that Sam isn’t supposed to care what happens to Dean anyway.

    By keeping the conversation focused on the Blade and not on Dean, he can at least register his concern in a way that doesn’t alienate Dean (too much) at this point. If he’s lucky, that tactic could convince Dean to leave it at home this time, potentially get Dean to think further about how the Blade’s affecting him, or even open a conversation about how Dean sees the Blade, why he wants to bring it, etc. Knowledge is power and all, from where Sam’s sitting. Calm conversation, asking questions and keeping the focus neutral helps him stay close and get more info.

    Comment by Jaytee — May 7, 2014 @ 4:06 pm

  56. @49 Sheri. On some level it was a strategic decision. Dean has supernatural powers and Sam doesn’t so Sam could become a liability. But Dean also sees Sam as “Sammy” and I think he has put him now firmly in the little brother category but not in a good way. So instead of thinking “Sam has disowned me” I think he might be seeing Sam as misguided etc. And I’m not sure he was truly protecting Sam by not giving him the correct information. Obliviousness is lethal in that game.

    I also didn’t care for the scene where Dean picked up the blade using his mind but I suppose it is a necessary skill or otherwise he would be cut off from the power too easily.

    Re: “As we saw, he knew there would be consequences and he knew he would pay for it, but it was a clear choice for him between an evil to himself and an evil to the world.”

    I don’t think it came off as that noble. He seemed to act more on impulse, thought he couldn’t go back to Sam so he was just focused on finding a way to “kill that bitch” etc.

    @50 JT. “the Blade may give Dean a sense of peace and security like he’s never known before. For the very first time since he was four years old, he has an unbeatable, magical weapon–something that can protect him and Sammy from any supernatural entity, no matter how powerful. That’s quite a change for someone who’s been scared for his bro and himself for as long as he can remember.”

    Good one! It could tie into the twisted story of Cain/Abel where Cain thought he was protecting his brother. Dean has already displayed signs of “I know what is best for you, Sam.”

    @Lisa1. “Imagine Dean w/no emotions on his face . . . just calmly hacking away.”

    That would have been something different! I’m not a fan of the feral thing.

    Although I did like the part where he was stabbing Abaddon’s corpse. That felt more real than the silly wire / wind machine work and played more to Jensen’s strengths. I wish they had used more realistic blood in that scene.

    Re: “I also thought this episode was underwhelming given the hype it got!”

    How in the hell can this be episode 21 but the focus isn’t firmly on the brothers? I remember an old interview where the interviewer asked Jared how the filming of Supernatural’s season 4 was going and Jared said something like they have kicked it up a notch because it’s nearing the end of season and he seemed pretty tired. Well, there is a better payoff when the episodes are packed with stuff that the Winchesters do. The way the interrogation scene was filmed made me suspicious that the actor who played an angel had to say some of his lines to a tennis ball.

    Comment by San Summer — May 7, 2014 @ 4:22 pm

  57. I am seriously bored with the MOC story. It’s just a rewrite of season 4 Sam. I hated season 4 Sam and don’t see myself liking dark Dean any better. The story is also highlighting the fact that Jensen really cannot act. He does well enough playing regular Dean, but his interpretation of dark Dean comes down to sneers and stares. Really bad acting.

    Comment by Jackie — May 7, 2014 @ 4:29 pm

  58. Erratum: Of course Sam said in *this* episode that the Blade was doing things to Dean, which I momentarily forgot. Rest of my point still stands.

    Comment by Jaytee — May 7, 2014 @ 4:29 pm

  59. @ San Summer: We’ll just have to agree that our views of Sam and Dean as characters is different and that there is more to the story than Dean relegating Sam to little brother status. Personally, if that is all this episode was about, then the writers are spinning their wheels on Dean’s decision and Sam’s anger over the decisions…and that will mean the season was worthless for anything other than developing Crowley and Cas as characters.

    Comment by Sheri — May 7, 2014 @ 4:52 pm

  60. I keep reading about the comparison of Dean’s MOC and Sam’s DB story arcs. Although they are similar they are very different in motive and handling of the situation.

    First-Sam’s DB arc was based on vengence first and foremost. Basically Sam thinking of himself so to speak. He stated that quite of few times. When he learned about the apocalypse deal then it became the combination of vengeance and stopping the apocalypse.
    Dean’s MOC arc was based soley on killing Abaddon because she was a Knight-last of her kind -a badass. No vengence. Nothing about himself in the reasoning.

    Secondly-Sam kept his DB a secret until Dean caught him in the act.
    Dean told Sam from the get go-no secrets. And Dean has been honest with Sam about what he feels when he touches the blade. Sam never did tell Dean about how he felt -he told others-like Chuck but he never told Dean. Honesty- even with the blade is still who Dean is. The talk in the Impala was even an honest talk. Dean told Sam basically -“you would have been a liability if you came with me. I new I could handle it on my own.”

    I didn’t see it as Sam saw it-Dean protecting Sam as a little brother. That’s not what I saw in that scene. I don’t think Dean is thinking that way anylonger. It was more Dean thinking Sam could have caused a situation that could be avoided if he wasn’t there.

    I also been reading that people think Dean will turn into a demon. To me that doesn’t wash because Dean as far as I know still has the Demon warding tattoo. How could a demon have a demon warding tattoo? So I don’t think Dean is going to turn into a demon. I just think he will be a BAMF with Crowley and Cas trying to use his MOC special powers for their benefit.

    I just saw a clip from the next episode. Its a scene with Dean and Sam talking. Sam actually says that they still don’t know what kind of effects the blade has on the wearer of the Mark. So its all new territory. He convinces Dean to leave the blade at the bunker. (well that’s what it looks like -but I bet Dean sneaks it like he did the colt)

    Comment by animal — May 7, 2014 @ 5:19 pm

  61. @ Jackie #57: For nine years, Dean has been the character that held the family together — the rock that all other characters revolved around. He was the loyal, dependable one.

    I am enjoying seeing that rock no longer be there. I am enjoying seeing Dean look lost and confused when he comes off his ‘high’ from using the blade; whereas, Sam always looked smug and belligerent when he was nuts.

    I will also say that until we hear something from Sam about disowning Dean as a brother, I am not buying into Sam’s “worry” about Dean or trying to get the Blade away from Dean for Dean’s sake. Sam still wants to use the blade to kill Crowley and Metatron, so Sam still is trying to use Dean as a tool to get the job done.

    Comment by Sheri — May 7, 2014 @ 5:23 pm

  62. @57- you are entitled to your opinion- even though you are in a huge minority in that thought-both about the MOC and Jensen’s acting. I have seen people think the MOC was a waste in that what is going to drive that story now that the main goal of Abaddons death is done. I think it will go -like in the clip of the next episode-Sam wants Dean to keep the blade away from Dean until they need it. Sam listed the times they will need it. -to kill Metatron, Crowley and the big bads. So I think there is more to the story for the MOC and the blade. Plus the big reveal of what the blade is actually doing to Dean physically or emotionally. -ie: is it something Dean can control or is it going to take him over completely. I think Sam gave us a hint in King of the Damned- He told Dean “You can stop”. So I that is foreshadowing that eventually Dean will learn to control it -and stop on his own -use it at will and stop at will as well.

    But if you are bored-Ok then-What would you rather see with the brothers then??

    Comment by animal — May 7, 2014 @ 5:39 pm

  63. thats “so I think that’s foreshadowing….” Damn keyboard-I have got to get a new one. lol.

    Comment by animal — May 7, 2014 @ 5:41 pm

  64. I would like to see the brothers liking each other, getting along and working as a team. No secrets, nothing “wrong” with either of them, no powers. Let the drama come from the monsters and demons they must fight and the people they must save. I’d like interesting supporting characters that don’t get killed off or betray them. I’d like a coherent well planned arc that doesn’t disappear for episodes at a time only to return in a rush at the end. I’m tired of characters going dark (Sam, Cas, Bobby, now Dean). I’m tired of the angst and lies and betrayals.

    Comment by Jackie — May 7, 2014 @ 6:16 pm

  65. @45 San Summer, great points about Dean’s use of “Sammy.” Considering all that’s gone on between the brothers this season, the name seems out of place and rather patronizing. Dean’s only been using it since Ana/Alex, hasn’t he? Maybe “Sammy” signals that the longer Dean has the MOC, the greater his sense of superiority to his brother and, possibly, to everyone else.

    On the other hand, possibly Dean’s frequent use of “Sammy” is intended by the writers to suggest that the influence of the MOC on him is intensifying.

    The mark of Lucifer and the blade were specifically designed for a man who (ostensibly) loved his brother so deeply he was willing to lose his soul to save him. Perhaps the MOC could only be passed on to a man like Cain–obsessively protective of his little brother, willing to go to any lengths to save him, and capable of great violence. So Crowley brought Dean to the bee farm where the Winchester was given a test to determine if he had as much violence in him as Cain did. Dean passed the audition and was given the mark.

    Thanks to Lucifer’s perverse influence, the MOC seems empowered by the love and fierce protectiveness of one brother for another. Thus, enraged by Magnus’ attack on Sam, Dean decapitated the spell master; angered when his brother was bled by a fang, Dean decapitated the vampire; and, infuriated when he learned Abaddon planned to entrap and harm Sam (as well as himself), Dean didn’t just kill the demon: he hacked her meat suit to pieces and kept on hacking well after she was dead.

    In short, when MOCDean calls Sam “Sammy,” he could be expressing the same sort of deep, fiercely protective love Cain had for his own little bro–even as he cut him to ribbons.

    Comment by JT — May 7, 2014 @ 6:36 pm

  66. @64, Jackie–from your lips to the writers ears! I couldn’t possibly agree more.

    Comment by JT — May 7, 2014 @ 6:39 pm

  67. @64. I agree.
    “I’d like a coherent well planned arc that doesn’t disappear for episodes at a time only to return in a rush at the end.”
    Well stated.

    Comment by beothy — May 7, 2014 @ 7:03 pm

  68. @55 Jaytee, you perfectly articulate what I imagine is exactly Sam’s way of thinking. As you say, “You do see his own experience coming through.” More than being addicted, Dean seems “possessed” or controlled by the MOC/Blade. He thinks he’s in control of his vessel, his “home.” But a diabolical, Lucifer-like power seems to be subtly influencing his mind and causing him to undergo a kind of metamorphosis into another being–a demon. Of course, nobody understands WHATEVER Dean’s going through better than Sam. I so like the way your post captures Sam’s patience and his thorough understanding of his brother.

    Comment by JT — May 7, 2014 @ 7:06 pm

  69. @JT oh yes, agree. There were number of good things about the episode, and, as I said, I really enjoyed watching it. 

    – I too loved the boys weird, completely out-of-place interrogation technique. It was fun, smart – and great to see the boys working so in sync. 

    – I loved Crowley and Abaddon. I really enjoyed their scenes, Abaddon’s snarkiness, Crowley’s wilyness, and Gavin too, the ‘mistakes’  notwithstanding. 

    – Really enjoyed all the brothers’ scenes. I could see why Dean sent Sam off (Dean felty invincible, but Sam was not, and would have been the ‘weak spot’ for Dean) but could also understand Sam’s reaction. But he got over himself and focused on Dean and the MoC effects. Much more mature, Sam. Loving you like this.

    – Dark!Dean = yum. Loved the fact he actually spoke honestly to Sam. They actually HAD A CONVERSATION!  Wow! Pinch me, folks. 

    – Confused about Gadreel. I just don’t get him. Gadreel and Cas together…meh. 

    – Finally, SO bored with Cas, his dreary, one-expression acting and, in fact, the entire angel posse. I so hopes he leads them off to heaven soon, never to return. 

    Do we know what Sam and Dean’s plan is next? What’s the mission now?

    Comment by Tammy — May 7, 2014 @ 7:07 pm

  70. @60 animal, I gotta disagree with you on one point. Dea has NOT been honest with Sam about the MoC effects, not until this episode. And that, in the impala, was the ONLY real conversation the brothers had about it, even though Sam has repeatedly asked Dean about it.

    @55 Jaytee, I’ve got to see that clip! Another conversation- with full sentences from the guys? My, we’re being spoilt.

    Comment by Tammy — May 7, 2014 @ 7:17 pm

  71. @57 Jackie, I just saw what you wrote about JA. I couldn’t disagree more. To me, he’s the best actor on television–the best actor who’s ever been on television. I’m utterly astonished at his ability to show how the person we know as “Dean” is being slowly, incrementally suppressed by the power of the MOC. JA’s as subtle as he is brilliant, so you have to watch him closely to catch each nuance of his performance, but it’s worth it. He’s nothing short of a genius.

    JP’s a remarkable actor, too. In fact, watching these two guys work has always been the main reason why I turn on SN.

    Comment by JT — May 7, 2014 @ 7:52 pm

  72. @69, Tammy–so, so, SOOOO well said!

    Comment by JT — May 7, 2014 @ 7:54 pm

  73. Ok… This episode was awesome…..
    Jensen Ackles, once again, win my heart (as he always does) by his EPIC acting….
    And the story is not bad. I though Abaddon was gonna get killed in the finale episode and it was a gr8 surprise that she’s dead…(I’m wondering who will Sam and Dean fight in the finale ep?)
    But I’m worried about the strange effect on Dean…
    He’s always been portrayed as a good guy who respects n obeys his father, loves his brother, is devoted to his job but now he’s got more anger and revenge and as Crowley said “Bloodlust” in his eyes…..
    Lets see where the story goes bcz one thing is clear 4 me, I can never predict SPN’s storyline :-p
    Can’t wait for the next episode :-)

    Comment by Warah — May 8, 2014 @ 4:03 am

  74. Upon reflection, I can’t help but the Abbadon killing scene was a bit cheesy. I can’t remember where I read it, but someone mentioned that Dean should have never dropped the Blade. I think the scene would have been even more powerful if Dean had held onto the Blade throughout the entire fight. I know they were trying to drag it out.

    I also think the wind effect was silly. Where did all that wind come from and why was it necessary. I liked the shot of Dean fighting the invisible force holding him back, but why did Abbadon lift off the ground when he stabbed her. She lifted off the ground, and Dean held her there w/the Blade. That was kind of cheesy and unnecessary.

    And as I said before, if the Blade gives Dean a sense of calm, he should have coldly stabbed Abbadon. I think that would drive home the point that the MoC is changing Dean better than Dean wildly and repeatedly stabbing Abbadon.

    I guess I just don’t like the way this MoC story is playing out. It’s interesting but I think it can be better executed. After giving it some thought, I’m still having trouble w/the what the MoC and the Blade is doing to Dean. Is he in a constant bloodlust? I’m just not sure. Do the writers know what they want from this story?

    Why won’t Sam research the MoC and the Blade? Why won’t anyone ask Cas? Cas seemed to disapprove of Dean taking the MoC but hasn’t said anything else about it. It’s weird. I also thought Cas was going to ask Sam about Dean when he asked Sam to stay behind b/c he was concerned about Dean’s response to his request but he didn’t. He just wanted to chat w/Sam about Gadreel – a being Sam NEVER had any interaction with and certainly couldn’t speak about on any level?!?!

    I feel this MoC story is somewhat shrouded in mystery. Does anyone else feel the same? The time we could have spent on really developing this story and showing more obvious changes in Dean was wasted, IMO, on numerous filler episodes.

    To me, JC has not done justice to this story, and I suspect it will wrap up by the end of this season or early next season. Dean can’t remain “dark” for long unless they plan to change the dynamics of the show entirely! Apparently, when asked about his favorite Dean plot/story, JA didn’t mention this one at all.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 8, 2014 @ 6:38 am

  75. @72 JT, thanks! :)

    @74. Lisa, I agree about the discrepancies, the ways it could have been better, the puzzling bits, etc. But I think this is as good as we’re going to get. Btw, I definitely think the MoC story deserved more than what it’s getting, and really, the fillers could have been fewer and a more coherent mytharc story told in their place, what with all the various factors and storylines, etc. But…

    I’ve reached the conclusion that, if it’s somewhat good, and has lots of Sam and Dean action, I’ll take what I can get. So overall, I guess I’m pleased with the episode.

    Comment by Tammy — May 8, 2014 @ 7:48 am

  76. Lisa1, have you seen the new preview? It made me feel better about the show, mainly because of the interactions between Sam and Dean. Of course, Dean said he was “fan freakin’ fantastic,” which, for some reason, reminded me of something Jack Nicholson said in “The Shining.”

    As for the MOC, I hope Carver does develop the myth arc next season. I want to see it used to raise Hell Knights; I also want to see Cain return. Above all, I want to see Sam’s promise in 2.22 completed:

    SAM: You shouldn’t have done that. How could you do that?
    DEAN: Don’t get mad at me. Don’t you do that. I had to. I had to look out for you. That’s my job.
    SAM: And what do you think my job is?
    DEAN: What?
    SAM: You save my life. Over and over. I mean you sacrifice everything for me. Don’t you think I’d do the same for you? You’re my big brother. There’s nothing I wouldn’t do for you. And I don’t care what it takes, I’m gonna get you out of this. Guess I got to save your ass for a change.

    Sam’s sacrificed himself to save the world more than once, but this time I’d like to see him show Dean, “There’s nothing I wouldn’t do for you.”

    Comment by JT — May 8, 2014 @ 8:08 am

  77. @ 40 & 41

    Amen to that! Deans idea of ‘partners’ is truly twisted, but really fits in with how he sees Sam, as a screw up who needs to be chaperoned the whole time. He certainly doesn’t consider him as an equal. It’s good to know that Deans words at the end of Sacrifice were a complete and total crock.

    And now the possession of Sam wasn’t even a violation any more. It was like sharing a house. Yeah, more whitewashing of Deans actions. What else is new on this show?

    Comment by Sonic — May 8, 2014 @ 9:41 am

  78. @ Lisa1 #74: Lisa, that post you remember may be my No. 49 above.

    @ JT #75: I saw the clip you mentioned, and it was good. I didn’t see Dean and Sam acting as brothers so much as I saw Dean lying his cute little ass off to Sam. To me, that reinforces that Dean is not longer a part of the ‘working partnership.’ He knows he is unstoppable with the Blade and he has full intention of using it.

    I also don’t understand how Sam can even ask Dean to do something for him as a brother, the “please” included, and I won’t until Sam’s hurtful words to Dean are addressed somehow. That’s why I still think Sam does not realize what he did when he disowned Dean as a brother, but I think Sam is going to find out.

    If Sam’s anger and thinking behind his decision of everything bad that happened is because they brothers are family, then the writers have dropped Sam’s whole anger issue and the reasons behind it and it will turn out to be another thing like Sam not looking for Dean while he was in Purgatory.

    The writers already put aside Sam being mad about the possession in this episode — it was like sharing housing and not being alone; nothing bad about it at all — so I’m hoping something is revealed as to why he was mad enough at Dean to disown him.

    Comment by Sheri — May 8, 2014 @ 9:58 am

  79. @78 That “sharing housing” thing seemed to me an attempt by the writers to try to reduce the harm done to Sam in order to excuse Castiel’s choice of Gadreel as an ally. (Not so surprising that Castiel would choose such an ally; Castiel extorted Jimmy’s meat suit from him years ago and doesn’t seem to give a flying leap about the destruction he brought upon that family.)

    At least the writers left us the reminder, through Sam, that Gadreel murdered Kevin (not to mention other humans). Anyway, I hope Sam is furious when he discovers Castiel has allied himself with the angel the Winchesters want to see dead. Interesting that Castiel made no mention of this alliance to Sam.

    Comment by JT — May 8, 2014 @ 10:27 am

  80. @78 Sheri, I didn’t mean that Sam and Dean were acting like they normally do; I just meant that they were interacting–and even discussing the blade (finally!). Dean is definitely not himself though.

    Comment by JT — May 8, 2014 @ 10:30 am

  81. @78 Disowned him? Didn’t Sam give Dean a choice ie ‘If you want to be brothers’. If Dean thinks he’s disowned then it’s on him, because Sam certainly didn’t say it. And if Dean would get his head out of his own self-pitying, self-righteous ass then he’d see that.

    Comment by Orlaith — May 8, 2014 @ 10:31 am

  82. @78 Thank you for proving my point about the whitewashing when it comes to Dean!

    It’s amazing. Dean’s ‘feels’ get hurt because Sam decides to put trying to save the world before him and he bleats on about it for seasons on end. He can’t open his mind enough to think about why Sam might have done it, just focuses on himself.

    Sam has his body and mind violated, his body is once again used to kill someone, his brother shatters his trust (and evidently would do it again) and he’s man enough to put how he feels aside for the betterment of others ie Dean and the greater good. Dean really could learn a hell of a lot about that baby brother of his that he considers so inferior to himself.

    Comment by Sonic — May 8, 2014 @ 11:11 am

  83. Well I enjoyed it but (these days there is always a but it seems) I was still a little disappointed. Lots of holes if you wanted to look – why on earth would Abaddon not have an army of demons to help her when the one thing that can kill her is coming etc. Loved the torture – or not torture – scene, made me laugh as did the hell hound bit, both silly but fun. Not sure why but finding the MOC to be getting less and less interesting, so it makes Dean go all berserker meh not that original a concept. Also it seems really strange that Cas has no interest in it and Sam though worried surely he could be doing a bit more research – so maybe it gets more interesting. I guess that I can’t really enjoy SPN in the same way any longer as the bros have been at a distance from each other for so long now, not sure there is any way back. I really don’t want Dean to go fully demon, as many have said it just is not within the character of Dean to go down that route – it would mean killing innocent humans at some stage – no no and no again. Sam is still the only person who can get through to Dean – I couldn’t quite work out what the “you can stop” meant – was he telling Dean that he could stop or was he talking to himself?

    Comment by Icarus — May 8, 2014 @ 11:30 am

  84. Unfortunate sudden spurt of hate on this site, hope they go away

    Comment by Icarus — May 8, 2014 @ 11:33 am

  85. @Icarus (83). What do you mean “talking to himself” in terms of Sam’s words? Naw, he was saying that to Dean. I thought there was an emphasis on “can,” kind of a vote of confidence in Dean’s favour in the moment.

    Yeah, somehow the more concerned Sam gets, the more the hatorade is coming out on both sides :p. I’m seeing a surprising amount of Sam negativity considering how well he’s been doing lately, and some people are already losing their patience with Dean (it’s gonna be a long road people). I figure Dean’s on a dark arc, he’s not going to be sympathetic the whole time- he’s gonna piss people off. I do imagine Sam’s “Purge” comments will be addressed too, perhaps in S10, but no point now- anything Sam says on that subject will fall on deaf ears.

    Oh, and general note: Sam’s commenting that the Gadreel possession wasn’t “threatening” still doesn’t touch the reasons why he’s (was?) angry with Dean. As he said then, took his choice away, lied to him, lead to Kevin’s death by Sam’s hand. Gadreel being “non-threatening” or “misunderstood” still doesn’t touch those issues.

    Comment by Jaytee — May 8, 2014 @ 12:11 pm

  86. @83 Icarus, that’s an interesting question you bring up about “You can stop.” I’m not at all sure what the line means, but I’ll take a guess. First, it suggests to me that when the blade is in Dean’s hand, the weapon wants him to keep on killing–hacking away wildly, indiscriminately, savagely, mercilessly, as we saw him do when he was spattered with the blood of Abaddon’s meat suit. It’s was if Dean were being used by the Blade, rather than the other way around. Second, Sam’s comment suggested to me that the human will–Dean’s will–is more powerful than this seemingly unstoppable force.

    I guess it’s like demon blood. Kept under the control of a benevolent will (his own), it could be used for good, as when Sam overcame Lucifer. But allowed by Sam to control him, it was an evil, highly destructive power.

    Comment by JT — May 8, 2014 @ 12:31 pm

  87. It was, not “it’s was.” By the way, I guess Sam is right. Cain was able to stop the control of the blade over him and put it down, so Dean should be able to as well. However, I wonder if Dean will ever be able to stop his addiction to the blade. Apparently the only way Cain was able to do that was by tossing it into the deepest, most inaccessible part of the sea.

    Comment by JT — May 8, 2014 @ 12:35 pm

  88. @Sheri. #61 Re: “Sam still wants to use the blade to kill Crowley and Metatron, so Sam still is trying to use Dean as a tool to get the job done.”

    Sam has never been shy about going to great lengths to achieve a goal even if it is at a cost to himself. When Dean didn’t want Sam to complete the trials, Sam gestured to Crowley and said, “Look at him. Look at him! Look how close we are!” Crowley etc. are unfinished business to the brothers because of the threat they pose to humans so Sam understands why the blade is needed but he’ll come to find out that the belief he had in Dean was unwarranted. He’ll want Dean to stop.

    Sam let it slide this time that Dean lied to him but when Dean keeps at it, they can’t do their jobs as hunters. In the next episode Sam and Cas are working together while Dean is with Tessa so it won’t be that glaring right away.

    #78 Re: “it was like sharing housing and not being alone; nothing bad about it at all — so I’m hoping something is revealed as to why he was mad enough at Dean to disown him.”

    Let’s not exaggerate. Sam said, “It’s not really something I like to —” but Cas pushed him gently so he shared his thoughts which he hasn’t done before to anyone. Sam told what kind of impression he had gotten but it doesn’t change how chunks of time went missing, how Gadreel took him as a vessel (and intended to keep it that way) and used Sam to kill Kevin etc.

    Comment by San Summer — May 8, 2014 @ 12:44 pm

  89. Bloodlines wasn’t picked up which just makes it more annoying how much the original show had to accommodate the spinoff.

    Comment by San Summer — May 8, 2014 @ 12:52 pm

  90. @70-Tammy- Dean has been up front and honest about having the MOC- He received it in First Born and told Sam about it in the very next episode (the one with Garth) -Yea Sam had to ask him about it but remember their attitudes toward each other at that time. They were barely talking and Dean didn’t know what Sam was feeling. So he wouldn’t have told Sam about it until asked. Understandable to me.

    Dean at that time didn’t know what the Mark was going to do to him. And he didn’t have the blade yet either. The blade -he only handled 1 time prior to this episode. He was trying to deal with how he felt about it. What it did to him-Sam saw what it did so Dean didn’t have to say anything about it at that point. He probably couldn’t put it in terms. Until this episode. So No -I have to disagree with you-Dean has been upfront and honest – SO far – about the MOC and the blade.

    We will see if he truly leaves the blade at the bunker in this next episode. I am going to say No way-he will sneak it out. Like he did the colt. Next episode looks good. I love Tessa. Hopefully she lives thru the episode and the writers don’t screw with the character that she has been since season 2. But this is Carver and company so they probably will screw the character up. idiots.

    So Bloodlines is not gonna happen. Kinda tells you exactly how the writing has been for SPN lately. Below par with some good just to keep it going.

    Comment by animal — May 8, 2014 @ 1:42 pm

  91. @ San Summer: I can’t tell which way the show is going with the Sam/Dean thing, but the entire season of their story has been based around Dean’s decision to save Sam’s life and Sam being pissed about it. For me, that issue has to be resolved, and that issue includes Sam disowning Dean as a brother. Before I believe that they have kissed and made up, the writers have to address the cause they introduced for Sam/Dean’s story. Until that is done, I have no trust in Sam to be all worried and concerned about Dean, beyond what he would be if it were some other civilian.

    For Dean, of course he will go do what he wants to do (including lie about leaving the Blade behind, because lying is a “gift”) until such time as the reason for the tizzy between the two of them is solved in some manner. How it is going to be resolved, or if it is going to be resolved this season, is the question.

    Re: “It’s not really something I like to —” but Cas pushed him gently so he shared his thoughts which he hasn’t done before to anyone. Sam told what kind of impression he had gotten but it doesn’t change how chunks of time went missing, how Gadreel took him as a vessel (and intended to keep it that way) and used Sam to kill Kevin.”

    Take note, though, that we got Sam’s POV in this discussion. Sam, miraculously or whatever, now remembers everything about the possession. He did not feel threatened. He felt he was sharing a space, and he felt that Gadreel felt ‘misunderstood.’ There was no indication from Sam that it was a horrid experience, or that he was “rode hard.” Killing Kevin using Sam’s body was acknowledged, and Sam is still ticked about that, but Sam’s memories of the possession don’t seem all that bad based on his conversation with Cas.

    That leaves me to think that Sam is mad about not being allowed to die, or that he is mad because Dean tricked him and he didn’t die, or that he felt he had given enough so dying was an out…or something. What caused Sam to disown Dean? I couldn’t tell you at this time, because Sam living or dying would have hurt no one other than Dean at the time Sam made his choice. All indications from Sam’s POV in this episode is that he is not mad about the possession and that it is more about not being allowed to die.

    I wonder how much the writers think that is an issue, because prior to this episode, the only thing we have gotten from Sam was a, “Remember me,” and then he went off to find Cas while Dean was paired with Gadreel. In this episode, Gadreel was paired with Cas. So, I question just how important the Gadreel possession issue is to Sam from the writers’ standpoint. My guess is that Dean killed Abbadon, Sam will kill Gadreel, and Cas will kill Metatron, so the three Winchesters each have their share in the kills.

    Comment by Sheri — May 8, 2014 @ 3:25 pm

  92. Animal – according to the actress who plays Tessa, she is now an “angel” or “reaper angel” with new powers so I think it’s safe to say the character has been messed with in some way.


    JT – I did see that preview, but it didn’t do much for me. This goes back to Tammy’s point about watching for Sam and Dean. As a brother fan, I can’t watch for them b/c their relationship is unclear. I don’t care what OOC nonsense was written in this past episode, but Sam stated his feelings about what Dean did in TP and ST. Those words must be addressed.

    I want to know why these two continue to travel together. If Kripke or Sera or someone who understood the brothers could return and repair their relationship in a quality way, I would be a happier viewer.

    So, I’m not sure what to think about the preview b/c I’m still unclear on what the MoC story is about. I’m just not enjoying the way this is playing out so far but that’s JMO. I hope, for me, that the next two episodes turn things around.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 8, 2014 @ 3:34 pm

  93. @LIsa-I read her tweet about Reaper angels. I am hoping that isn’t as bad as it sounds. Probably will be but if she survives the episode I won’t care about the Reaper angel thing. I love Tessa. I love her with Dean. They better not mess up that relationship.

    As for the MOC- You guys confuse me really. I don’t understand what you guys don’t get about the MOC arc. Sam and Dean needed something to kill a Knight of Hell (Abbadon). The only thing that can was the MOC with the blade. Dean discovered this via Crowley. Dean did what Dean does and took on the MOC to kill Abaddon. Now that jpart of the MOC arc is done. The arc of the MOC will move to its effects on Dean arc now. We know it is effecting him but is it changing him how exactly. That will be disclosed I am assuming within the next 2 episodes. Not a hard arc to follow really. Its the only SPN arc that I am interested in. I fear though that Cas’s story is going to monopolize the season finale. With the Winchester brothers being guest stars. Hopefully I will be wrong.

    Comment by animal — May 8, 2014 @ 4:38 pm

  94. @92, Lisa1, I fully agree with you about the damage done to the boys’ relationship. Obviously, Carver has the incredibly strange idea that one brother can do or say unforgivable things to another and business will go on as usual without so much as an apology or any significant change in the relationship. Not only is this bad writing, it shows an astonishing lack of understanding of human nature.

    Of course, I can’t blame Carver too much. He might have looked back at 4.1 and figured if Kripke could do that kind of damage to the brothers’ relationship, why shouldn’t he?

    Comment by JT — May 8, 2014 @ 4:39 pm

  95. @ Lisa1: I think the problem all stems from these poached, tit-for-tat stories these writers are doing. Instead of telling new and interesting stories, we get one brother going through what the other went through, and I guess we are supposed to think that gives them a better understanding of what the other one was doing and why.

    It doesn’t work for me. These are two distinctive characters with very distinctive motivations. What works for one makes no sense for the other. That’s what I was getting at in previous posts about Dean’s struggle should be his own internal one — not become corrupted by the power of the MoC like Sam was corrupted by demon blood. Dean has never thought of himself as someone special; just the opposite, in fact. He has never had a need for power — he makes his own through will power, selflessness, and knowing that what he is right and/or wrong. While he grew up in fear of disappointing John, he has no one to disappoint except himself; thus, his unhealthy guilt for everything that happens.

    Rewriting Dean in Sam’s stories or Sam in Dean’s stories harms the characters as individuals.

    @ animal: The confusion with the MoC is that we don’t know the price of the burden — even though it appears to be Sam’s demon blood story, which brings me back to my point in the response to Lisa.

    Is the MoC then the mytharc this season, or is it a plot tool to give Dean something to do (like Purgatory was a plot tool to get Benny out of Purgatory so Sam could be jealous?

    Since the MoC has been well-received, will we get Dean’s demon blood story next season — the effect on Dean and the price he will pay? I haven’t seen any set up for S10 yet.

    Yeah, Dean has killed Abbadon, but who will kill Metatron? That’s Cas’ story. Is Dean Cas’ tool, then? I mean, first Dean was going to go after Gadreel, and he has been passed off to Cas. Then he was going to kill Abbadon and Crowley. He killed Abbadon and let Crowley go. Now he’s going after Crowley and Metatron, or just Metatron.

    So no, it’s not clear how the MoC fits into this season and what they mytharc is supposed to be, which is opening the doors to Heaven. And we still have the brothers’ big tizzy, which made up the first 19 episdes of the season. Is that going to be resolved in and around the MoC in the last two episodes? If so, it’s a quick write of an ending.

    Comment by Sheri — May 8, 2014 @ 5:16 pm

  96. Emmanuel @28 AMEN! I hope Revolution gets cancelled and Mr. Kripke does come back and fix this mess.

    I have started re-watching the dvd’s from the beginning. I am ready to start disc three of season two. I enjoy watching these episodes now, as much as I did the first time. This is the Supernatural I miss. The ghosts, wendigo’s, and other monsters. The angel story is just boring.

    I will watch this show until it is cancelled for J2, but I won’t enjoy re-watching these later seasons like one thru six.

    Comment by mj — May 8, 2014 @ 5:23 pm

  97. mj@96, I totally agree with you and Emmanuel about EK. I can’t imagine anything better for SN than for him to come back. And I’m completely in agreement about the early years of SN. Those episodes are have everything a television series should have–and more. The angel story IS boring; as far as I’m concerned, the series has been steadily declining ever since Castiel and the other angels were brought on board. But, fortunately, we can still see the Js; they’re what the show has always really been about anyway.

    Comment by JT — May 8, 2014 @ 5:36 pm

  98. In reference to Sam being angry with Dean: imo what hurt Sam the most was his body being used as the instrument to kill Kevin, and at least two other people. I don’t know how anyone with any concense could deal with that. Especially after seeing Sam’s conversation with Death in episode 9.01.

    Comment by mj — May 8, 2014 @ 5:42 pm

  99. @82- What show have YOU been watching? Since WHEN has Dean EVER thought that Sam was inferior to him?
    The whole damn show has ALWAYS shown that Dean thinks HE’S the one who’s worth nothing, and that Sam is worth EVERYTHING!

    Comment by roxi — May 8, 2014 @ 5:43 pm

  100. @95, Sheri, I think you’re exactly right. Dean IS Castiel’s tool–at least the angel’s been acting that way. First, he calls upon Sam and Dean to torture information out of a captive so he won’t have to get his own hands dirty. Next week, it appears, he’s planning to use Dean to get information out of Tessa. In the meantime, he’s allied himself with the Winchesters’ enemy, making no mention of the fact to Sam or Dean.

    So, does Castiel expect Dean to kill Metatron for him? Who else could? I imagine that’s why we haven’t heard any concern from “Cas” over the MOC and its long term affects on the human–affects that Castiel may know about already, but is keeping from his “blunt little instrument,” Dean , as well as from Sam.

    I can’t help wonder why Tessa has been brought into the series at this point. Obviously, she and other reapers and/or angels are opposed to Castiel and his followers. Are they siding with Metatron? I hope not. But if they are and Metatron knows about Dean’s MOC/Blade, I wonder if Metatron arranged for Tessa to be taken so she can talk Dean into siding with her?

    So could we have Sam fighting on the side of Castiel and Dean fighting on the side of Tessa? It’s probably too late in the season for the brothers to be set against one another that way, but, at this point, I wouldn’t put anything past Carver.

    Comment by JT — May 8, 2014 @ 5:52 pm

  101. @98, mj, I think both the brothers have made serious and selfish mistakes: Sam, by not even looking for Dean when he vanished or helping Kevin when he was abducted, and Dean by allowing Sam to be possessed when he knew his brother would rather be dead.

    I’m guessing Carver doesn’t plan for the boys to talk their differences out. Instead, he may be planning to force each brother to walk in the shoes of the other.

    Comment by JT — May 8, 2014 @ 6:00 pm

  102. @ JT: I haven’t given any thought to what Tessa is going to do once I read that reapers are angels now. I hope it doesn’t turn out to be the case.

    Nor am I a fan of bringing everyone and their brother back for the sake of fan service. I like Tess and I like how she’s been used in the past, but bringing back familiar faces, writing episodes for the sake of using a familiar face just to give the J2s time off pisses me off. I don’t care about any of them anymore.

    But, hey, one appearance years and years ago and they get invited to the Cons, get paid, and Creation Con makes a ton of money. What’s to lose in continuing to do that.

    I definitely think walking in the other brothers’ shoes is the plan…but not matter how you say it, it is another poached story — the laziest form of writing I can think of and requiring no creative talent at all.

    Comment by Sheri — May 8, 2014 @ 7:00 pm

  103. @102, Sheri, you’re probably right that Tessa is back for fan service, but it would bother me more if the writers turned her evil and killed her off for shock effect, as Anna and Mary’s father were. SN’s writers could care less about character consistency. They write like children–according to the whim of the moment.

    Anyway, it makes no sense to me that Tess would be on the side of Metatron.
    After all, he closed heaven so all the souls she and other reapers are supposed to conduct to the afterlife are stuck in walls–or wherever. But the writers have probably changed her from a good reaper to a nasty angel reaper so she’ll have a vessel. That way, Dean can use his trusty Blade to chop to pieces.

    Would anybody in his or her right mind actually watch this show if it weren’t for the Js?

    Comment by JT — May 8, 2014 @ 7:25 pm

  104. To chop HER to pieces. Sorry.

    Comment by JT — May 8, 2014 @ 7:30 pm

  105. I don’t think I can’t get on board with this being a superb episode. It was better than most of Season 9 but that is not saying much really.

    I am totally done and dusted on the boring angel business. I understand that Cas is popular with some fans but the actor’s portrayal (or maybe it’s the writing) is tediously monotonous. Every line delivered the same way…Every. Single. Time. If they can’t write him better than please let the character go.

    I miss the really good episodes where the brothers connected and had unparalleled chemistry. This season has failed to deliver any episodes that have showcased that. This is Supernaturals greatest asset and it’s like they have completely abandoned what made this show special.

    I have really found the writing of Season 9 the worst of the series. I think there were some good ideas but the delivery and sloppy/choppy dialogue has made this season a complete chore to watch.

    I always rewatched episodes before but I have not rewatched a single episode this season. Sorry to say my favourite show has slid pretty far.

    Comment by Chris — May 8, 2014 @ 8:22 pm

  106. All these nasty comments against Dean, wow, do you guys even watch the show in it’s entirety? Or just Sam’s parts?
    Because I gotta say, it’s hard for me to see how you think that Dean thinks, in any way, that he’s superior to Sam when everything that’s ever been shown has been the exact OPPOSITE.Dean thinks he’s less worthy than the snot on a toad’s ass, has called himself nothing but a grunt, blames himself for everything bad in the whole fucking universe while at the same time tells Sam how he’s the smart one, the “brains” of the operation, and oh yeah, what’s Dean’s biggest and only dream again? Not that anything happens good to HIM, but that Sam, SAM, gets out, finds a wife and family, and has a happy, normal formal life long enough to have grandkids and need viagra.
    Let’s no forget that whole, ripped apart by hellhounds, died and went to hell, tortured for 40 years on meat hooks thing. Because you know, Dean put himself through all that torture all for just himself, the selfish asshole.
    Dean doesn’t want Sam around because he wants to be a “martyr and a hero”. This show has always shown that Dean doesn’t give a shit about himself or what happens to him. Dean keeps Sam around because he LOVES him.
    Dean may be a lot of bad things, he has done some lousy shit, and he has many personality flaws, but thinking himself superior to Sam (or anybody) and wanting to keep Sam around just to to use and abuse him are NOT two of them!

    Comment by roxi — May 9, 2014 @ 4:05 am

  107. @99 I’m watching a show where Dean once again lied to Sam to get him out of the way, and then said that having him there would screw it up. I’m watching the show where Dean thinks that Sam needs a chaperone, and all that he does is screw things up. What show are you watching?

    Comment by Sonic — May 9, 2014 @ 4:12 am

  108. @108- I’m watching a show where Dean told Sam two things: (1-That he didn’t want him to get hurt and(2- Abaddon could have gotten a hold of Sam and used his life/safety as a bargaining chip to make Dean stand down, which Dean implied that he would have.
    I’m sorry that you and some others here hate Dean so much that you flat out refuse to see anything at all good about him and see only negative, but in this case, there’s the prior 8 seasons to disprove your claims that Dean thinks Sam is inferior to him or that he only uses Sam to shore up his own ego, which the show has CONSISTENTLY shown is pretty much non existent. I only wish Dean DID see some worth in himself and didn’t feel his only value in life was supporting/looking after Sam. Both of them would be better for it.

    Comment by roxi — May 9, 2014 @ 4:28 am

  109. So he doesn’t want Sam to get hurt or be used against him but he still wants him to hunt with them? Yeah, that makes sense.

    The show has not consistently shown that. Dean many times in the past considered himself a hero.

    Your attempt to dismiss people and their opinions by rounding them up and declaring that they ‘hate Dean so much’ is pathetic and immature.

    Comment by Sonic — May 9, 2014 @ 4:40 am

  110. So Tessa somehow became an angel. How exactly does that work?
    And she’s plotting against Cas? Have we ever even seen any evidence on this show that they have ever even crossed paths? How do they even know eachother?
    If the writers wanted to appease fans, why not let us see Chuck again? I’m pretty sure he is one of the biggest fan favorites. Or a now teen-aged Jesse. Wouldn’t he be a useful ally to somebody here, either demon or angel? Or are we just supposed to believe a creature so incredibly powerful just went away to hide forever from the world?

    Comment by roxi — May 9, 2014 @ 4:46 am

  111. @109- I’m not dismissing your opinion, I’m emphatically disagreeing with it, because to me, the show HASN’T shown Dean thinking anything highly of himself, ever, which by the way, I’ll bet if I disparaged everything and anything about Dean like you do, you wouldn’t be calling me pathetic and immature.
    Your posts DO positively drip of hatred for the character, sorry, but they do. Calling me names doesn’t change that.

    Comment by roxi — May 9, 2014 @ 4:52 am

  112. @111 You’re emphatically disagreeing with what I said by saying I hate Dean sooo much. Righteo……

    And I didn’t say Dean thinks highly of himself (though he does consider himself a hero), but that he thinks little of Sam as a hunter.

    I haven’t disparaged everything and anything about Dean. I made comment on the fact that he has shown, more than once, that he doesn’t trust his brother. And I’ve seen you criticize Sam plenty of times and haven’t commented on it. (Does that mean that you hate Sam?)

    I didn’t call you names. I said your attempt to dismiss people by sticking a label on them is pathetic and immature.

    Comment by Sonic — May 9, 2014 @ 5:10 am

  113. @ Sonic #107: I still don’t know what the mytharc of S9 is or what story they are trying to tell. Since you watch the show so closely and appear to think that it is something like Dean is mean to Sam, or Dean doesn’t trust Sam, or Dean is controlling of Sam, or Sam loves Dean, here’s a fun game. I saw this on another board and it looked like fun. Everyone can play, as it relates to each season’s theme. Just complete S9 in one sentence.

    S1: Find Dad
    S2: Kill the YED
    S3: Save Dean
    S4: Sam’s descent into darkness
    S5: Stop the Apocalypse
    S6: What is wrong with Sam, Part 2…or Cas’ descent into darkness
    S7: Stop the Leviathian
    S8: Close the gates of Hell
    S9: ????

    Comment by Sheri — May 9, 2014 @ 6:35 am

  114. Sheri these question marks are just making me crazy :-o
    Can’t wait for 20th May…. :-)
    I just hope and pray that the finale will be as awesome as I think and will be different from each and every season of Supernatural :-) <3

    Comment by Warah — May 9, 2014 @ 7:11 am

  115. @113. Ummm… Angsting non-brothers? Wait, no. the angsty duo hardly appears…

    Comment by Tammy — May 9, 2014 @ 7:17 am

  116. The Great Leader Cas and his angelic army, helped by two hormonal, bickering guys.

    Comment by Tammy — May 9, 2014 @ 7:20 am

  117. I don’t think 9 had a theme that was carried off. It was supposed to the angel war. That was promoted by the show runner and writers and even the SPN logo got wings. However the angel war was mostly promotional chat and awfully written. “Who is Castiel?” seems to be the only one sentence description that makes any sense at all for season 9 as it actually played out. He has been developed from a bumbling human to a supreme leader of an angel army. “Time Off for J2.” could be another theme as the Winchesters have had little to do with the angelification of SPN. Or perhaps, the theme was “Make a year of SPN worse than the all-time bad season 7.” That is the theme at which Carver succeeded .

    Comment by CaseyT — May 9, 2014 @ 7:22 am

  118. @-112- Yeah, I criticized the crappy way Sam treated Dean last year. I also criticize Dean PLENTY! I guess you haven’t been reading many of my posts or just conveniently ignore the MANY criticisms I have about Dean!
    But I also have good things to say about Sam, and especially this season, which you also conveniently ignore,and although I have criticized a lot of Cas’s actions, I also have acknowledged that he’s Dean’s best friend and that overall I like him, but despite your claim otherwise, you and like minded NEVER have had ONE good or positive thing to say about Dean so yeah, when someone only ever has the most negative things at all times to say about a character, why is it unreasonable for someone else to think that they hate that character? To me, that’s just logical!
    And I REALLY don’t care if anybody hates any character, what I’m saying is that it’s too bad that your hatred for a character prevents you from seeing anything but the most negative about them in every situation. So to me,that makes YOU the pathetic and immature one.

    Comment by roxi — May 9, 2014 @ 9:05 am

  119. I’m loving these answers. They make me laugh. Come on, more poster responses, please!

    Here’s how one poster on the other board responded, and it made me roar.

    “Possess Sam and kill Kevin and possess Sam again, and make Dean a bad guy and give him the MoC and make him nummy and luciously stabby, and something-something with Cas fighting Metatron and Barthalamew and Makaleeki… Hokilaki? … Haukaloogi?, and…um…yeah…something like that or other, and kill Abaddon because, well, just because, and yada-yada Crowley’s human now.

    There. Done. One sentence. /strikes disco pose.”

    Comment by Sheri — May 9, 2014 @ 9:33 am

  120. I like Cas but honestly, he fucked up supremely at trying to take over Heaven the first time, last season he fell for Metatron’s deception hook, line, and sinker, and now these angels STILL trust that he should be their leader? Exactly why do they all put their faith in Cas so easily, given his recent history?
    It’s not that I don’t think Cas ever deserves another chance to redeem himself, but shouldn’t he have to somehow prove that first, earn it before he should be trusted with that power again so soon?

    Comment by roxi — May 9, 2014 @ 11:20 am

  121. I wonder how many of you remember the tv show”Mystery Science Theater 3000? That show was freakin’ hilarious! It’s a shame that they are off the air now and that they didn’t do tv shows, because, given the rather campy nature of SPN, I think it would have been perfect for the MST3000 treatment!LOL

    Comment by roxi — May 9, 2014 @ 11:25 am

  122. JT@97: I only disagree with you in one thing: I really liked the angel storyline in seasons 4 and 5. For me, the show under Kripke’s showrunning was perfect. But I think the angel storyline should have ended along with the Apocalypse.

    Man, I remember when this show used to make me really, REALLY happy. I even liked season 6. Season 7 was boring, but at least didn’t make me mad (except for Bobby). But since Jeremy Carver took over, everytime I watch the show it’s like “Please, I hope it doesn’t suck!”.

    Nowadays, I’m afraid I only watch to see Jensen and Jared’s acting.

    @Jackie: Jensen is by far the best rated actor on SPN, not only by fans, but also by critics and TV bloggers. All this years, I’ve heard nothing but praises about his acting talents from very different people who watch the show. There are a few people who don’t like Jared as an actor (and I just don’t get it because he’s awesome), there are a few people who don’t like Misha as an actor (I think he’s a pretty decent one), but almost everybody loves Jensen’s acting skills. But of course you have every right to voice your opinion, I was only pointing out that you are the minority.

    Comment by emmanuel — May 9, 2014 @ 11:43 am

  123. @Sheri. #91 Re: “Take note, though, that we got Sam’s POV in this discussion. Sam, miraculously or whatever, now remembers everything about the possession. He did not feel threatened. He felt he was sharing a space, and he felt that Gadreel felt ‘misunderstood.’ There was no indication from Sam that it was a horrid experience, or that he was “rode hard.” Killing Kevin using Sam’s body was acknowledged, and Sam is still ticked about that, but Sam’s memories of the possession don’t seem all that bad based on his conversation with Cas.”

    He wasn’t possessed by a demon or by Lucifer. Gadreel tried not to let Sam know anything was going on. “He will not feel me, no. There is no reason for Sam to know I’m in here at all,” (9.01). It was shown when Gadreel took control (unless he sometimes practiced being Sam in front of Dean) and the rest of the time Sam was himself (more or less considering how hyperactive he was in the beginning and how crappy he started to feel towards the end because he could tell something was wrong). Gadreel also seemed to have learned to have some regard for Sam. He judged Abner on whether his vessel was happy, he told Dean “If it makes you feel better, I have Sam locked away in a dream,” (partly for his own benefit, too) and looked upset when Dean accused him of being one of the bad guys because of what he was doing (to Sam) “I am doing what I have to do.”

    However, it doesn’t change how Sam started to feel about himself and how he thought it might be permanent. “What if there is something wrong with me — something…really wrong? Why does it have to be something else? It’s always something else. We’re always scraping to find some other explanation when maybe it is… just me. I’m a mess, Dean. You know it. And sometimes, I feel like maybe I’m never gonna actually be all right,” (9.08). Sam couldn’t trust his own mid. “There are chunks of time just … missing. Like there are times when I’m… not here,” (9.09). Not to mention what it took to get Gadreel out and how Dean kept lying to him again.

    #95 Re: “That’s what I was getting at in previous posts about Dean’s struggle should be his own internal one — not become corrupted by the power of the MoC like Sam was corrupted by demon blood. Dean has never thought of himself as someone special; just the opposite, in fact. He has never had a need for power — he makes his own through will power, selflessness, and knowing that what he is right and/or wrong. While he grew up in fear of disappointing John, he has no one to disappoint except himself; thus, his unhealthy guilt for everything that happens.”

    What exactly do you wish to see? If the struggle is Dean thinking do I go bad or do I stay good then the story is over within an episode. But if he doesn’t fully realize how much his mindset and his reactions are changing…

    #95 Re: “The confusion with the MoC is that we don’t know the price of the burden”

    I don’t understand this need to know everything before it happens. During season 6 you would have probably said the objective was to kill Eve but retroactively you’ve said it was Cas’ story. If one can reduce season 4 to “Sam’s descent into darkness” and season 6 to “Cas’ descent into darkness” then this season seems to be Dean’s decent into darkness. It started from 9.01.

    Comment by San Summer — May 9, 2014 @ 12:13 pm

  124. As far as the boy’s acting, I certainly don’t think Jensen’s as bad as Jackie thinks, nor is Jared. Overall, I think both boys do pretty well with the shitty scripts they’re given. But I also don’t believe either man has given A level Emmy worthy stuff either. I don’t blame either one of them, the writing has been so stale for a while that they get complacent. Kind of hard to develop when you’re given no real challenges, the same kind of storyline over and over. I do think if we ever see them play other characters on other shows after SPN, they’ll both surprise us.

    Comment by roxi — May 9, 2014 @ 12:31 pm

  125. That clip with Sam pulling a gun out from under his pillow has me thinking. If Carver goes the Cain/Abel route this season, we might see Dean kill Sam in the finale. But, whether to defend himself or someone else, what if Sam shoots his brother, leaving us with an image of stone cold dead Dean?

    Then, in the premier of S10, Dean could simply get back up on his feet. A savagely murderous dark Dean is bad enough, but a savagely murderous all but immortal dark Dean is worse–especially if only the Blade he wields could kill him.

    Of course, one way to save Dean might be if somebody, maybe Sam, were willing to take the MOC burden upon himself.

    Comment by JT — May 9, 2014 @ 1:09 pm

  126. @125- But if that were to happen, it would mean that Sam was the important one yet again, and, no, I am NOT putting Sam down here but, come on, he’s ALWAYS the on who is most important. PLEASE let it be Dean this time. Even if he is evil. Just let Dean be the center of attention for once.

    Comment by roxi — May 9, 2014 @ 1:31 pm

  127. @ San Summer #123: Re: Point #1: I don’t know what point you are trying to make, but mine was that always before in this show, possession was made to sound like something really terrible and awful for the vessel. Sam’s speech made it sound like Gadreel’s possession wasn’t awful; that it was kind of peaceful for the both of them while they healed. It’s obvious that Sam does remember most everything, except for those times when Gad took over to talk to Dean and killed Kevin. I think it is more of a writer’s fail or, better yet, a need to have Sam push Cas’ plot forward, but it negated the idea that Gad’s possession of Sam was some horrible, awful thing.

    Point #2: I see no reason for the story to be over in an episode or two. In fact, I am not yet convinced that Dean’s internal struggle is not what we are seeing. It’s too early to tell yet, if one thinks that:

    1. The Blade is a metaphor for Dean’s raging inner anger that he has suppressed all these years. We have always know that Dean has the potential for rage, and we saw that he does harbor anger in Skin. We also saw that Dean is the crazier of the two in Sam, Interrupted.

    2. If dropping the Blade was a visual metaphor for Dean’s self-doubt.

    3. If regaining the Blade (the TK part) was Dean using his willpower and inner strength to call the Blade and make the kill.

    If this scene was a visual metaphor, then we are seeing Dean’s inner battle taking place on screen. I am not convinced that it was, because I think that would be too far of a stretch for this bunch of writers. I am hoping that it was, though, because I think Sam or Cas killing Dean or Sam saving Dean by the ‘power of love’ is the most predictable, lazy thing that can happen and would be a complete poached Sam story…and I would be totally dissatisfied if that plays out.
    Maybe you would, and that is what I fully expect. Which brings up your last point.

    I don’t need nor want to know everything that is going on. I like interesting twists and to be surprised, but I would like to be able to depend on sub-text. I would like to have some idea of what the season’s through-story is. I would like to be able to trust the writers and story canon. Look at how exciting the falling angels were in 8.23, and how that was a great set-up for the S9 story, which we were told would be a war between angels and Abbadon and Crowley vying for Hell….and look at what we got…a coming-of-age story for the Winchesters who haven’t quite yet been put into the angel war and an Abbadon/Crowley war that we never saw materialize and now Abbadon is dead. We have seen the brothers spat for a while, and now they seem to be working just fine together. Instead of the angel war, we’ve seen Cas go from a newly formed human studying the bodily functions of humans, doing laundry, and having sex, to a reluctant ‘commander’ of an angel faction who is supposedly burning out from a stolen grace that was, at least, not found in an oak tree, and Lucifer’s replacement having human feelings of compassion and love, even though he did not have those feelings for his son before he was a demon.

    If you are happy with that, good on you. I think, however, that whatever story they are telling could have been a lot better with a little caring for the show, the two lead characters, and with some pride in the writers craft.

    Comment by Sheri — May 9, 2014 @ 1:49 pm

  128. @127 Sheri. I did not see Sam as peaceful while he was possessed and neither did Dean. He almost broke down and confessed to Sam in 9.08 “I can’t. I can’t let you put this on yourself. Listen to me. It’s not you, Sam.”

    #49 Re: “Dean knows full well what a fine line he walks between being a good guy and being a monster; and even with the Mark’s influence, Dean, in character, would fight that descent into darkness and would try with all his willpower to remain on the side of right.”

    I just don’t see enough in that. If he was so self-aware, he would have put some insurance in place and started to work on getting rid of it already and would not have gotten the mark so lightly in the first place.


    Dean: Can I use it to kill that bitch?

    Cain: Yes. But you have to know with the mark comes a great burden. Some would call it a great cost.

    Dean: Yeah, well, spare me the warning label. You had me at “kill the bitch”.

    Cain: Good luck, Dean. You’re gonna to need it.

    Dean: Yeah, I get that a lot. Let’s dance.

    I do think the brothers need to come together. As far as who is going to save whom, I think it’s gonna require both of them. Dean needs to find that inner strength just like everyone else in order to stop. But I don’t see that happening unless he knows that he is not too far gone, that he can still come back. No man’s an island and certainly not Dean.

    Comment by San Summer — May 9, 2014 @ 2:45 pm

  129. My post erased, and that ticks me off so I’m just going to say I agree w/Sheri (127) re: Sam suddenly remembering his possession and this MoC story.

    As most know, I’m calling it a writing FAIL that Sam suddenly remembers the possession. He is not at all harmed by it b/c it was rather peaceful so why was he so upset earlier? This retcon completely negated the entire first half of the season!

    And I am in complete agree w/Sheri re: the MoC story. It’s not about wanting to know everything, but we should know more than we do about this Mark and its effects at this point in the season! Maybe it’s just me but I’m not (and haven’t) noticed any major changes in Dean and his behavior. If the Mark is doing something to Dean (i.e., making him colder, more bloodlustful), the show needs to be a bit more obvious about it. I’m sorry but Dean coldly dispatching a monster is never going to be a blip on my radar. I need more than what we’ve seen, and I’m also bothered by the idea that NO ONE has researched this Mark. Not Sam. Not Dean. Cas doesn’t even talk about it. That, IMO, is to the detriment of the story they are trying to tell. Why should I be worried when no one else is? And Sam gently asking Dean to not take the Blade is not conveying any true sense of worry to me?


    By the way, I really like Tammy’s and CaseyT’s themes for this crappy season: Hormonal, bickering guys and Time Off for J2. That describes this season perfectly.

    Oh, and Chris, I am in complete agreement w/you in this season being awful! To me, it is worse than 8, and S8 was abysmal!

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 9, 2014 @ 3:20 pm

  130. @ san Summer: Re: Sam’s possession. Sam tells Cas, ““He didn’t possess me – completely. More like we – uh, shared housing. I was still me…I don’t really know what I felt. I mean, maybe that I wasn’t completely alone.” That dialogue is a complete contradiction of what has always been shown by this show; that vessel possession is a bad thing.

    When I speak of Dean walking a fine line blah, blah, I am speaking about the character and the character over the course of the entire series, not just this episode. Yes, Dean accepted the Blade without questioning anything, and he did so in a state of total despair. Beyond saying that, I have explained that point in prior comments and won’t go over that again.

    I don’t know what the writers will do with this story, but acknowledge your point and would add that it is my feeling that Dean still has and is displaying loyalty to family and distrust of strangers — something that he has always done. In this episode, I think that was shown when he and Sam we responded to Cas’ asking and when Dean told Cas that he thinks everyone lies and that he and Sam will investigate. In other words, Cas was trusting his group of angels because he thought they had a common cause, but had not given consideration to there being a plant in the group.

    Comment by Sheri — May 9, 2014 @ 3:48 pm

  131. @128, San Summer, all excellent points. I don’t think Dean is self-aware, either–at least not enough to admit to himself that the Blade is taking over his thought processes, dominating his emotions, and corrupting his outlook. When he says ,”I’m all right, ” he means it. He feels strong, confident, powerful, fearless, without any sense of weakness or guilt.

    Even when he’s not using the Blade, much of the time what we see on the screen is not the real Dean. He’s always hated and deeply distrusted anything to do with the demonic, especially when it took over Sam. This “Dean” embraces the demonic. He no more wants to give up the weapon one brother used to kill another than he’d be willing to surrender the mark of Lucifer. Just as Cain was, Dean is rapidly becoming an instrument of the devil.

    Dean’s got to be the one to finally lay down the blade, but I don’t think he’ll have a chance in hell of being able to do that–not without Sam.

    And, similarly to what you said, San, I don’t believe Sam will be able to save Dean unless he can convince his brother he’s worth saving. Dean accepted the Blade, “whatever the consequences.” because he was in despair. He doesn’t think Sam loves him–at least not unconditionally, at least not as much as he loves Sam. Until S8.1, I wouldn’t have had the slightest doubt that boys loved one another equally. Now, thanks to Carver, I don’t know. He broke what didn’t need fixing; now, he’s got to go back and try to fix what he broke.

    Comment by JT — May 9, 2014 @ 4:04 pm

  132. @ JT: Except, JT, Dean has not done one single thing demonic up to this point. Not one. I wouldn’t say he is turning demonic, so much as losing touch with his humanity. Whether they take Dean into demonic territory remains to be seen, but they have given him supernatural powers now, so I am expecting something demonic as the cliffhanger or, and my money is on this one now, Sam kills Dean. I think “King of the Damned” was foreshadowing for this, and I think “Do You Believe in Miracles” is also foreshadowing for S10.

    Comment by Sheri — May 9, 2014 @ 5:06 pm

  133. @129 Lisa1. I wonder if Sam even knows the Lucifer bit.

    The mark of Cain storyline hadn’t progressed ideally during this season. I think it has been shown that the mark’s influence changed how Dean sees the world like he started out thinking he had been messed up etc. when he let an angel possess Sam and then it turned into “But what I do, I do because it’s the right thing. I’d do it again.” I agree with JT that Dean looked a bit crazy (Jack Nicholson) when he yelled in the preview clip that he is fan-freaking-tastic. And this “Sammy” business. Correct me if I’m wrong but I have gotten the impression that for the last three episodes he has referred to Sam as either “Sammy” or “you” which would be a departure from the norm. He seems to “like” Sam but there is something unsettling about it.

    @130 Sheri. I think it’s because Gadreel didn’t fully take Sam over unlike Meg and Lucifer. He hid inside of Sam. Also Sam said, “It’s not really something I like to —” so it seems that the whole things bothers him enough that he’d rather not think about it. Sam didn’t get the full vessel treatment because Gadreel was still healing himself / Sam and he had to put Sam to sleep or otherwise Sam could’ve expelled him. It’s very possible that Sam would have burned out eventually.

    @131 JT. Yeah, if Dean knew how dangerous, how dark he could get then he would tell Sam no matter how strained their relationship is. Ultimately one of the things that have always guided him is keeping Sam safe. Dean would’ve still kept the blade or otherwise Abaddon very possibly could have killed them but Dean would’ve let Sam know he was trying to ride it out.

    Re: “I don’t believe Sam will be able to save Dean unless he can convince his brother he’s worth saving.” “He doesn’t think Sam loves him–at least not unconditionally, at least not as much as he loves Sam.”

    They have definitely shown the progression.

    “I killed Benny to save you. I’m willing to let this bastard and all the sons of bitches that killed mom walk because of you. Don’t you dare think that there is anything, past or present, that I would put in front of you! It has never been like that, ever!” (8.23)

    “Oh, about that we’re not supposed to be brothers? No, don’t flatter yourself. I don’t break that easy.”
    “You kidding me? You and me — fighting the good fight together.” (9.13)

    “Yeah, I know. You wouldn’t have done the same for me.” (9.19)

    Comment by San Summer — May 9, 2014 @ 5:07 pm

  134. @132 Sheri. Re: “and my money is on this one now, Sam kills Dean. I think “King of the Damned” was foreshadowing for this”

    I’m not seeing that at all. How was it foreshadowed? And in general I can’t imagine Sam ever killing Dean unless it is self-defense / some sort of mercy kill and even so I don’t see the story progressing there. I think Sam would rather die trying to save Dean.

    Comment by San Summer — May 9, 2014 @ 5:13 pm

  135. Now that Kripke’s show is cancelled, I’d like him to come back if he cares :/

    Comment by San Summer — May 9, 2014 @ 6:04 pm

  136. I say Dean becomes king of hell and kills Sam, who ends up in heaven and then takes out metatron,using Cas’s grace, becoming king of heaven and an angel. Then for the series finale, he heals dean, shutting the gates of hell and as a final act, shuts the gates of heaven.

    Comment by t1gerlilly — May 9, 2014 @ 7:01 pm

  137. @132, Sheri, I should have been clearer. What I meant was that the old Dean, the real Dean, would have had the same reaction to the MOC and Blade as he did to Sam’s ingestion of demon blood. Dean was horrified that his brother would use such power to achieve his end–however worthy the goal. Now Dean’s done a complete 180 on the matter. Just as Sam did, Dean’s allowed himself to become the instrument of a diabolical force without even knowing what the affects might be. And, like Sam, Dean takes pride in believing he’s stronger than this force–he’s “all right.” As with Sam’s demon blood, it may be the influence of the MOC that’s soothing Dean’s fears, falsely telling him he’s got everything under control.

    Obviously he doesn’t and didn’t from the get go. His addiction to the Blade was so strong he drank non-stop, probably to reduce the craving. He was withdrawn, depressed, disinterested in hunting, and afraid. Still, he was Dean–at least up until the point where he got hold of the blade. When he beheaded Magnus (assuming that was Magnus), Dean went somewhere–became someone else. Only after repeating his name could Sam reach him. He also underwent a psychological change when he didn’t have the Blade. Dean’s killing of the vampire wasn’t only brutal and savage, Dean enjoyed it (as Sam pointed out), just as he would have enjoyed physically torturing the captive angel.

    This isn’t Dean: this is an alien influence using Dean. It’s changing him into something ruthless, sadistic, and vicious–an evil entity hacking relentlessly at Abaddon’s meat suit, steeping himself in blood, relishing every moment of the butchery. Would he have stopped if Sam hadn’t been there? Probably not. He’d have kept on slicing and dicing until nothing recognizably human remained of his victim. And even when he isn’t killing, Dean doesn’t seem like Dean. He’s cold, dispassionate, dishonest, and manipulative–especially towards Sam. As you say, Dean’s losing touch with his humanity. Or, put another way, he ‘s becoming increasingly less human.

    Thanks to the MOC, Dean seems to be undergoing not only a psychological but a physical metamorphosis. He’s developed psychokinesis. Furthermore, he has super human strength–greater strength than the Hell Knight who tried to restrain him. It was Cain who killed the Knights of Hell, but, if his final scene was any indication, he didn’t need the Blade to destroy demons.

    But Cain is a demon. Crowley is a demon. Something undeniably demonic is closing in on Dean, exploiting and tempting him, but I don’t think he’ll commit murder and turn demon. The diabolical power that infuses the MOC and Blade can affect Dean’s thoughts and change his body, but it doesn’t own Dean’s soul–and can’t–not unless he willingly surrenders it the way Cain did his.

    Comment by JT — May 9, 2014 @ 7:55 pm

  138. @ JT: I think what you are saying is that Dean is succumbing to a demonic force, which is the MoC, rather than becoming demonic himself. Is that right? If so, I agree with you. Dean has now been given supernatural powers, which means a lot in a show called ‘Supernatural,’ and as I’ve said, everyone should be afraid of him right now (including Sam), because he is one scary dude.

    What I have been arguing (discussing is really the correct word — but arguing my point) is that Sam and Dean are very different people with very different motivations, so while I do think that Dean is getting a poached Sam S4 story here, my personal opinion is that Dean’s outcome should be very different than Sam’s outcome because of that.

    That said, I think Dean is crazy as a bed bug right now, and a crazy Dean is a scary Dean. He isn’t being what anybody that knows the character would deem ‘like himself.’ IMO, that adds an unsettling note to the show and to the viewers opinions they are formulating. Dean has always been the one that everyone depended on to be there, hold it together, to clean up the everybody’s messes, and the moral center that all other characters revolve around. When that center (or rock) is moved, it’s unsettling.

    I don’t think it is especially Sam that Dean is being different with, though. He’s different with Sam; yes, but I still believe Dean has kept his loyalty towards family (and I include Cas in the family, although I want to choke when I say that), just because of the fact that Sam has been able to reach through the haze and pull Dean back, though it is clearly getting harder to get through to him.

    The thing is, I don’t see anybody willing to step up to help Dean right now. Cas has shown no concern at all, and Sam still wants Dean to use the Blade, but only when he thinks it is necessary, despite his worry. By the time Sam does step up to help Dean, Dean is going to be very hard to help. But back to my main point.

    I don’t want this to be a rewrite of Sam’s S4 story, nor do I think it should be. Sam and Dean are two very different characters with very different motivations, and they each have their distinctive histories. It’s okay to poach a story, to have Dean go down a dark path just like Sam did, as long as the writers realize that the characters are different and their motivations are different; therefore, the outcome should be different.

    I went over the point in an earlier post, so won’t repeat it; i.e., what drove Sam’s actions and what drove Dean’s. I am not going to be happy with a Sam saves Dean through the power of love (a Swan Song ending). I strongly feel that Dean needs to save himself in order to realize his worth as a person and get rid of his self-doubt that causes him to take on undue guilt and responsibility.

    I hope neither one of them kills the other, but I can very much imagine the writer’s going there for a big shock moment, as well as the ‘walk in each other’s shoes’ thing. In fact, that would be the easiest route for them to take, while still getting rid of the MoC, but I think if the writers do go that way, not many viewers will be satisfied with the outcome.

    Comment by Sheri — May 9, 2014 @ 9:24 pm

  139. @118. So I’ve posted less than a handful of posts here (and most of them were in reply to you, nothing about Dean) and you’ve decided that I never have anything positive to say about him…… Perhaps if you stopped attacking people the minute they posted they might have time to say something positive.

    The MANY criticisms you have about Dean are always tempered with excuses for him.

    I’m finding the good you have to say about Sam very hard to find, and what I did find is usually followed by criticism of him.

    It’s too bad that your hatred for those with whom you disagree prevents you from seeing anything but the most negative about them.

    I see you’ve ended your post with another insult. Why am I not surprised??

    Comment by Sonic — May 9, 2014 @ 11:35 pm

  140. I’ve got a question for 138 JT. If i misunderstand please correct mne. Thanks. You said you thought Dean needed to save himself in order to realize his self worth. My question is this….what lead to Deans path though, is that Dean thinks Sam doesn’t love him.

    So if Dean saves himself (how does he get to this “i have value” idea when he hasn’t been able too in 30 years?) and Samm has no part in saving him…..then nothing changes in the brothers relationship. Deann still will beleive – wrongly – that Sam doesn’t love him and wouldn’t cross the the street to save him.

    Somehow I think with teh writers insistence of a cain and able comparison that the ‘kill’ will have to come into play somehow.

    What if…..Deann goes all MArc of Cain on something? Or someone? Someone innocent? What if in order to solidify Dean as evil or demonic …in order to complete the process Dean has to kill an innocent? For Cain it was Able (whom we have never gotten his pov about what wernt down)

    What if Sam stepped between Dean and the innocent…not to save the innocent but to prevent Dean from killing. “If your going to kill someone; your going to have to kill me.” And that puts the onus on Dean. He has to choose between the power of the Blade and the MArc or his brother. i.e. he saves himself. And it also shows him how much Sam loves him and beleives in him…that this DArkDean isn’t Dean.

    Or maybe after Dean kills a roomful of innocent people (Dean thought were demonic mYbe…Sam comes in and…..Dean goes bersekrer because …mark of cain. And Sam is just barely defending himself. Annd then Sam goes down and Dean towers over Sam and says sneeringly “Any last words…SAMMY?”

    Sam “Just three. I foregive you.” And then he throws himself at Dean into a humongous bearhug…the sword between them….Dean can either shove it into Sams’ stomache or he can drop it. And Sam just repeats “I forgive you.”

    Comment by Kari — May 10, 2014 @ 5:12 am

  141. @138, right, Sheri–that’s just what I’m saying. (You sand it so much more concisely.) I don’t think evil is part of Dean, anymore than I believed evil was part of Sam. These are extraordinarily good men–far better than most humans–but they grew so discouraged at being beaten down by evil forces, they made the mistake of using the demonic to try to achieve good, forgetting that, inevitably, the demonic would wind up using them.

    I agree with so much you so well say about Dean. We are used to seeing him as the rock, and it is disconcerting to see him not himself. At the same time, though, I think it’s time the writers showed us a helpless Dean, a controlled Dean. He’s just as human as his brother, but he’s never wanted to admit that he needed help the way Sam so often has. As deeply as he loves Sam, Dean never fully trusted his brother, believing him too weak to resist demonic forces–at least unless he himself was there to look after Sam: “as long as I’m around, nothing bad’s going to happen to you.” That was said in the context of Sam being afraid he might turn evil.

    You’re right that the MOC is a kind of retread of S4, but it’s a story that must be told–an experience that Dean has to go through; otherwise, the relationship between the brothers will never be as strong, healthy, and as mutually-respectful as it could be.

    And as for who saves whom, I’m sure Dean will save himself in the end, but he won’t be able to do it without his brother’s help and love. Love always trumps evil. That’s how it’s done.

    Comment by JT — May 10, 2014 @ 6:36 am

  142. San and JT – For me, the problem is I’m not sure I would be concerned about anything Dean has done if he did NOT have the MOC. Would we be concerned with the way Dean killed that vamp if he did not have the MOC? would we be concerned with the way Dean killed Abbadon if did NOT have the MOC? What about the drinking and despondent behavior? Would that be concerning without the Mark?

    I say none of this would be concerning because Dean has behaved this way before. That’s my problem with the way the story is playing out. Nothing is markedly different about him IMO. Dean killed the vamp in S2 with the same zeal with which he killed the vamp this season. Dean coldly and viciously beat down Soulless!Sam into unconsciousness similar to the way he repeatedly stabbed Abbadon. And Dean presenting as sad or depressed in a bar is nothing new.

    I just don’t think enough time has been spent on developing this arc. There doesn’t seem to be a clear idea in the writers’ room of how the MOC is affecting Dean and how to effectively convey that.

    Anyway, that’s just my personal issue with the way the story is developing. I wish the effects of the Mark were a bit more obvious.


    Sheri – Like San, I don’t believe Sam will kill Dean. I just can’t see him doing that. It is possible that Dean will kill Sam to play out the whole Cain/Abel angle. Jensen did express surprise that the writers went there. Who knows?

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 10, 2014 @ 6:41 am

  143. And when I say obvious, I mean more unique to Dean and his personality. This may sound crazy but why not show Dean as extremely happy. I mentioned earlier he could have coldly killed Abbadon with no expression on his face, but what about a huge smile as he’s stabbing her to convey the joy he’s getting from the killing?

    We’ve seen Dean depressed and sad for five seasons. Let’s see something different to show the change the MOC is having on him.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 10, 2014 @ 6:50 am

  144. @ Kari #140: I think you are addressing me, so I will answer.

    There are any number of ways the writers could show Dean saving himself and still have Sam involved. The best example of that is Point of No Return. Dean changed his mind (an internal decision) based on Sam sincerely and completely unselfishly trusting and having faith in him. I would love seeing that Sam make a reappearance. Dean reciprocated by trusting and having faith in Sam’s decision to let Lucifer possess him and then take him out.

    Sam should have learned a lesson from PoNR, and I think he did until S6. Gamble brought him back soulless, and he can’t be blamed for that, but then she proceeded to regress him right back to where he was before Swan Song.

    Sam needs to learn that having an protective brother is not the worst thing in his life. He needs to learn to stop projecting his failings onto Dean (selfish being one of them and self-righteousness being another). He needs to learn to not run away every time he has an issue with Dean. He needs to learn that Dean does not fight back with words; it’s always physical action with Dean. He needs to learn to stand on his own and not fall apart every time Dean is out of his life. He needs to put aside his feeling that his life is only worth some big, gigantic self-sacrifice. He needs to see Dean’s worth as a human.

    Dean needs to put aside his self-doubt and harmful sense of responsibility brought on by John putting undue responsibility on a child. He needs to learn self-worth and that he tries, even though he sometimes fails. He needs to learn that his one job is not protect Sam; it’s to fight the good fight so that he saves people. Dean has always done the right thing for the right reasons, but he has always doubted that. I think that self-doubt has been reinforced by everyone that he has ever cared about, including Sam — especially this year when Sam called him selfish.

    All of those issues will be right back to square one, not resolved in any way if Sam saves Dean through the power of love. Dean, for instance, did not “save” Sam in Swan Song — he supported Sam.

    All the Sam saves Dean for a change does is reinforce in the fan’s minds and satisfy the fan outcry that the “brother bond” be put back into place. There is no character growth in that, IMO.

    Comment by Sheri — May 10, 2014 @ 7:04 am

  145. JT. Re: “And as for who saves whom, I’m sure Dean will save himself in the end, but he won’t be able to do it without his brother’s help and love. Love always trumps evil. That’s how it’s done.”

    I agree. I don’t understand what is so wrong about the idea that Sam would be involved in saving Dean. They are in it together at the end of the day. And how would it even work that Dean would suddenly realize he is worthy or whatever it is that people want him to realize if it weren’t for the people he sees in his life, especially Sam, and what he means to them?

    Lisa1, exactly. I’d say the biggest concern from Dean’s point of view is how far Sam is willing to risk himself to save Dean considering Sam isn’t that afraid of dying (trials) and has even courted death to achieve what he thinks is more important than his own life (extracting enough grace to track Gadreel). I don’t think Dean could live with himself if he found out he (almost) killed Sam.

    Re: “There doesn’t seem to be a clear idea in the writers’ room of how the MOC is affecting Dean and how to effectively convey that.“

    Many of the symptoms could have been simply put on how he felt after he almost lost Sam because he let an angel possess him and how his relationship with Sam turned out to be after that. But this Sammy thing is still bothering me. Even though Dean now seems to think that Sam wouldn’t save him like he would save Sam, he is still sort of going along with Sam. They share some jokes and at the end of the episode Dean presented the situation kind of like what he did was also coming from a caring place for his brother. When Cain went after Abel, he didn’t seem to think “You are one of those filthy things that talk to Lucifer, I have to put you down.” He still seems to hold on to the idea that he did it for Abel and condemned his own soul so Abel could go to Heaven.

    Comment by San Summer — May 10, 2014 @ 7:49 am

  146. I geuss the problem for me is Dean NEEDS Sam to do some huge, gigantic save even if it surpresses his free will. Dean puts this onus on Sam as the only way for Sam to show his love. Dean has said this in words as well when he complained Sam wouldn’t save him.

    Course Sam tried in s3 through various methods and was told he was wrong for even wanting to try and how dare Sam think it because Dean would never want to be saved that way. He tried (offscreen and failed ) in season 4 and Dean had a hissy fit just at the thought of Sam trying.

    So I dont know what Dean wants from Sam in this regard. Its the only way Dean will acknowledge Sam loves him but yet if Sam tried then its all a betrayal of what they fdight for not to mention their brotherhood.

    The use of Sammy is a sure sign that Deann views Sam as nothing, no respect, no trust….just some snot nosed baby brother that needds to be sent on a snip hunt while the big dogs do the hard stuff. Problem is….this isn’t new. Sure “sammy” used to be a term of endearment in the beginning. But Dean has been using it for years as a way to remind Sam that he is less then and always will be less then Dean and his betters….which as we know includes Castiel and benny. The MOC isn’t perverting his view of Sam as weak…its just magnifying a view he’s always had.

    I think Dean was actually right in Season5. (especially with Carver and his twisted idea of ‘fixing’ their relationship) The boys should pick a hemispher and part ways. Be brothers…..get together during holidays but they shouldn’t be hunting together.

    Comment by Kari — May 10, 2014 @ 8:09 am

  147. @Sheri.

    “He needs to learn that Dean does not fight back with words; it’s always physical action with Dean.”

    What does that even mean?

    “He needs to learn to stand on his own and not fall apart every time Dean is out of his life.”

    When has this been shown? Maybe you are referring to season 8. That line of thinking always bothers me even when it comes from well-meaning place. After all, Sam was planning to go back to school etc.

    “He needs to learn that his one job is not protect Sam; it’s to fight the good fight so that he saves people.”

    Does that mean he should not have talked Sam out of finishing the trials because as far as he knew, he put Sam’s life ahead of Benny, Cas and all the people that could be saved from demons?

    “Dean has always done the right thing for the right reasons, but he has always doubted that.”

    You sure about that? How does the possession thing fit into that? If Dean had went about it the right way, he would have told Sam. I think he was right to have doubts.

    And how does turning more and more into John fit into all those lessons? I think control issues should be on that list.

    And I’ll never understand this game of “Who is the most selfish brother of all?” that fans are playing. Why is Sam selfish in your opinion?

    Comment by San Summer — May 10, 2014 @ 8:15 am


    Comment by BEFUDDLED — May 10, 2014 @ 8:25 am

  149. @Kari.

    I’m also confused by what Dean wants.

    Dean: All right, you want to be honest? If the situation were reversed and I was dying, you’d do the same thing. (9.13)

    Dean: Yeah, I know. You wouldn’t have done the same for me. (9.19)

    Before Dean let Sam know he wouldn’t want to be brought back if it came at a cost. Now he holds it against Sam if Sam doesn’t try to do just that. He needs to be clear on what he expects Sam to do. It seems that if Dean was in a coma and dying, he would want Sam to trick him to let an angel possess him even if Sam thinks Dean would rather die because otherwise it means Sam wouldn’t even save him when they are on a case hunting vampires. I hope that’s just Dean’s brain being a little scrambled because of the mark.

    Comment by San Summer — May 10, 2014 @ 8:31 am

  150. San @149- Dean’s letting Sam be Possessed (which wasn’t actually now by the way) -as far as Dean knew at the time – didn’t come with a cost. That’s why he did it. You seem to keep washing over that. There was absolutely no cost (at the time) that Dean saw – no bargain made – Just a human and an angel making a deal to heal Sam and heal the angel. A win win. No souls being bargained away. No life being taken. Confirmed by the almighty Cas that Zeke/Gad was a good angel and to go for it. Dean wasn’t going against what Deans belief system was.

    Comment by animal — May 10, 2014 @ 8:45 am

  151. @142, Lisa1, I’d have been more concerned about Dean’s behavior if he didn’t have the MOC. In “Bloodlust,” he enjoyed cutting off the head of a vamp, but Dean was temporarily mad with grief and fear for his dad. When he later decapitated Gordon, Dean was savage–but who wouldn’t be after what Gordon had done? As for the way Dean beat soulless Sam to a pulp, well that was completely OOC for Dean, as far as I’m concerned. I think it was one of many examples of how certain writers try to excuse Castiel’s behavior by showing Dean or Sam acting the same way. Not once but twice, Castiel beat Dean to a bloody pulp and for no good reason at all. (Do writers get off on this stuff?) I guess we’re supposed to think that wrecking Sam’s or Dean’s face doesn’t count as long as long as Castiel is there to instantly repair the damage.

    Anyway, as I see it, Dean’s killings under the influence of the MOC have been of a whole different order. Using one of his spells, Magnus said he could empty Dean of thought and will. It seems to me that’s exactly the kind of thing that happens under the influence of the MOC/Blade. Dean wasn’t “there” when he cut off the head of the spell master; he did seem conscious of what he was doing when he decapitated the vamp (with the MOC the only influence), but the sadistic pleasure he took in the kill shocked Sam, as it should have shocked us. As for Abaddon, I can’t see anything even remotely Dean-like about the way he impaled that meat suit and went about trying to slice and dice it down to nothing. That’s the kind of behavior Dean would have experienced from a torturer demon in hell.

    I absolutely agree, though, that very little time has been spent developing the arc. As I remember, Kripke said he had to come up with two season finales: one designed to end the series if it was cancelled, and the other leading to the next season should the show be renewed. I supposed Carver could have been faced with the same problem. If SN hadn’t been renewed, we could have seen far more attention given to the MOC in the second half of the season with the arc and the series reaching its climax and resolution in the penultimate and finale.

    Fortunately, the word came that SN would return, so maybe Carver had to “thin the soup” this season so he could continue the myth arc into S10. Actually, I’m glad the soup was thinned–both because I like this arc (so many possibilities!) and because I think subtle, gradual buildups add to the suspense and the richness of a series.

    I do fear we’ll see Dean cutting off the head of Sam in the finale–for the simple reason that SN’s show runners LOVE to get the fan base all in a dither over the summer. From my perspective, it would be more interesting if Sam killed Dean in defense of someone else, so “immortal” Cain/Dean could rise back to life in 10.1.

    Or, FAR better, I’d like to see Dean follow in Cain’s footsteps by using the power of the MOC and Blade to create an army of Hell Knights to kill the angels and overrun the earth with darkness and chaos. After all, that’s why Lucifer REALLY manipulated Cain into working for him in the first place, wasn’t it? Crowley’s object all along may well have been the same as Lucifer’s. Crowley was never happy just ruling hell. He wants earth, too.

    Comment by JT — May 10, 2014 @ 9:15 am

  152. @148, BEFUDDLED, I think we’ve seen the last of the anti-Christ kid, but I’d bet the bee farm Cain will be back.

    Comment by JT — May 10, 2014 @ 9:22 am

  153. @animal. Re: “Dean wasn’t going against what Deans belief system was.”

    He wasn’t?


    Gadreel: I cannot promise, but there is a chance I can fix your brother from the inside.

    Dean: From the inside. So, what, you gonna open him up? [Gadreel shakes his head.] What, possession? You want to possess Sam?

    Gadreel: I told you.

    Dean: No way.

    Gadreel: Understood. It’s your call.

    Dean: No, it’s Sam’s call. There’s no way in hell he’d say yes to being possessed by anything.

    Gadreel: He would rather die.

    [Dean nods ruefully. Gadreel gets painfully to his feet and waves a hand in front of the monitor, silencing it.]

    Gadreel: I’ll leave you two alone, then.

    [Gadreel heads for the door.]

    Dean: Wait.

    Re: “Dean’s letting Sam be Possessed (which wasn’t actually now by the way)”

    Let’s not rewrite history.


    Dean: I’m sure you do, but, Sam, you went through the trials. Okay, that put a big strain on you. I just think it’s better if you took it easy, you know, and didn’t act like you were-
    [Gadreel takes over.]
    Gadreel: Possessed by an angel. And he does feel better. A work in progress, of course, but I am slowly healing him.
    Dean: That’s great. Um, but, Sam-


    Cas: You let an angel possess him?
    Dean: He said it was the only way, and I believed him. Now Sam’s gone. Kevin’s…

    Cas: Dean. If the angel possessing Sam isn’t Ezekiel, then who is it?
    Dean: A dead man walking.
    Cas: What, you’re gonna destroy him?
    Dean: Damn right.
    Cas: You kill an angel, its vessel dies, too.
    Dean: Think I don’t know that? If I don’t end Sam and that halo burns him out and I… God, I was so damn stupid.

    Cas: Listen to me. Sam is strong. If he knew an angel was possessing him, he could fight. He could cast the angel out.
    Dean: Maybe. But as far as I know, he’s in the dark. I don’t know how we clue him in.

    Dean: Shut up! All right. Plan “B.” Cas, you got to possess him.
    Cas: What?
    Dean: Do it now! Get in there, tell Sam what’s going on, and help him kick that lying son of a bitch out!
    Cas: It might work. But I can’t possess a vessel without permission.

    Crowley: Because Dean’s sent me, Bullwinkle, the real Dean. I’ll make this quick — you’ve been possessed by an angel. He’s got you packed away in some dusty corner of your own mind, and I’m here to break you out.

    Crowley: See? Not real. Like I said. I know how possession works, Sam. You’ve seen everything that he’s seen, even if you can’t remember. That’s what I need you to do. I need you to remember.

    Sam: So, what? You decide to trick me into being possessed by some… psycho angel?

    Sam made a distinction between the time when he was possessed by Meg or Lucifer (his personality was completely suppressed) and when he was possessed by Gadreel before Gadreel stole him as his vessel. Gadreel had to let him be himself while he was hiding.


    Dean: So? How’s it look in there?
    Gadreel: Not good. There is much work to be done.
    [Sam’s body is moving much more stiffly than normal and he speaks in Gadreel’s manner.]
    Dean: Yeah, but he’s gonna wake up, right?
    Gadreel: He will.

    Comment by San Summer — May 10, 2014 @ 9:32 am

  154. JT, Sam decapitated Gordon ;)

    I wonder why Josie’s backstory was given. I guess it gave more insight into the demon but it seems a little redundant considering this episode. And all the soulless people behaving remarkably different from how Sam was.

    Comment by San Summer — May 10, 2014 @ 9:50 am

  155. JT – Sam was the one who killed Gordon. As far as Sam killing Dean, that’s simply cannot happen! After all the mean and cruel things Sam said to Dean earlier this season, it would be further character assassination to have him murder Dean. If any brother kills the other it will be Dean killing Sam. Dean is consumed by the MOC and could recover from killing Sam. Sam is already hated by many, and I can’t imagine the hate he would receive for killing Dean, esp. in light of his comments in ST and TP.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 10, 2014 @ 9:51 am

  156. I misread your comment, JT, and see you were saying that Dean would kill Sam not the other way around. I agree with you. That makes a lot of sense and probably is the way the show will go.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 10, 2014 @ 9:53 am

  157. @137,138,141. Sheri, JT, I completely agree with what you both wrote.

    Sheri, I think it will be too much to expect character growth, resolution of the mytharc AND a fixing of the brothers’ relationship from these writers by the finale just an episode away. So my main goal is the brothers’ relationship, and Carver better achieve that somehow – which to me seems like Sam somehow saving Dean (the most obvious, but needed after what they’ve done to Sam).

    If they can actually manage to do the rest, It’ll be a miracle. Unfortunately, you’re not on their writing panel :).

    Comment by Tammy — May 10, 2014 @ 10:50 am

  158. San-I am just going by what Sam himself said in this last episode-he wasn’t possessed. Sorry-I didn’t write it the SPN writers wrote it that way. Its canon. Sam wasn’t possessed by Gadreel. And frankly the Crowley inside Sams head -is that really being possessed?? I don’t think so. Crowley didn’t make Sam do anything. He just told him to get rid of Gadreel. So no-Sam wasn’t possessed. He was being ridden by Gadreel to both Gadreel and Sam could heal. That’s a win win San -sorry -but that’s a win win. No cost at all. Yea it went badly. Dean trusted Zeke/Gadreel. Infact I think Cas called Dean on the Trust issue in one of the episodes. Didn’t he say something like “we are both too trusting” or something like that??

    Comment by animal — May 10, 2014 @ 11:18 am

  159. Thanks, San Summer and Lisa1. Gosh, how could I have forgotten that Sam decapitated Gordon! And that made perfect sense since Gordon tried to kill Sam. I have to go back and see those great episodes again.

    Lisa1, you did read my post right, but believe me, I never thought for a moment that Sam would MURDER Dean. As you said, that ABSOLUTELY CAN’T HAPPEN. But I can imagine a situation where Dean goes wild and is about to kill an innocent person or even Sam himself, forcing Sam to kill his brother to stop him. As we’d see in S10, Sam’s pain would be overwhelming–good drama–and Dean’s return would be a snap since he’s probably as immortal as Cain.

    If Dean kills Sam, then we’d have to go through the whole yada yada business of how Sam comes back to life in 10.1. Did an angel bring him back? Did a demon bring him back? Did SN’s God bring him back? Was Sam the Trickster all along? Does it matter?

    Sam’s already come back to life, what? Three times? (counting “Dark Side of the Moon”). And Dean’s come back at least as often. The whole business is becoming incredibly old and boring; besides, where’s the suspense? We all know neither Sam nor Dean is going to stay dead–unless the writers want to risk the outrage of viewers by having a ghost ride in Baby with the surviving brother.

    True, fratricide is built into the myth arc, but, honestly, I can’t think of a worse season finale than if one bro killed the other. (Of course, Dean could always kill Castiel. That would be thrilling–if I didn’t know Castiel is coming back.)

    Comment by JT — May 10, 2014 @ 11:26 am

  160. @animal. So first you guys argue that Dean tricking Sam into letting an angel possess him wasn’t bad, it was actually right and Sam is being a bratty teenager if he is upset by that. Now you jump on how it wasn’t bad at all because Sam wasn’t possessed. Can’t have it both ways.


    Dean: Sam?
    Gadreel: There is no more Sam.
    Dean (gasps in pain)
    Gadreel: But, I played him convincingly, I thought.

    How could it be any clearer that Sam was possessed?

    Dean admitted many times that he let an angel possess Sam. There was an elaborate setup to get Sam to say yes. They showed the times when Gadreel took over (flash of blue eyes, angel wings etc.) The rest of the time Sam was a vessel as far as Gadreel taking advantage of Sam’s soul to heal himself but Sam was being himself, thinking his own thoughts. That’s why Sam said Gadreel didn’t possess him completely. He has some basis for comparison considering his experiences with Meg and Lucifer.

    Comment by San Summer — May 10, 2014 @ 11:53 am

  161. @160, San Summer, very well put;I fully agree. I’m guessing that the writers sat around and tried to think of the worst thing for one brother to do to the other. For Dean, the worst thing was his brother taking off without so much as looking for him. For Sam, the worst thing was for his own brother to allow him to be possessed.

    Now, the writers are trying to dismiss the possession as no more serious than having a housemate that Sam unaware of, except for his sense he wasn’t alone in the house. Thus, Sam simply over-reacted.

    Why are the writers doing this? I think it’s because (a) Gadreel was fairly popular among fans, and (b) the writers wanted a known angel to serve as Castiel’s spy. A REALLY disgusting business. Castiel was made to seem “moral” by quizzing Sam about whether he felt threatened by Gadreel. The fact that Sam said he didn’t apparently made Castiel feel perfectly justified in going behind Sam’s back (and Dean’s) to ally himself with their dire enemy–an angel who horribly killed a number of humans, including an innocent kid who worked tirelessly for the Winchesters.

    Of course, human life has never meant much of anything to Castiel. And, when it comes to the Winchesters–especially Sam–this angel always puts his own goals first.

    Comment by JT — May 10, 2014 @ 12:12 pm

  162. @San 160- Since you like to quote conversations then go get the conversation between Sam and Cas in this episode. I didn’t write it. Spn writers wrote it. Sam said he wasn’t possessed. Infact didn’t he say he didn’t feel alone. or something like that?

    I am not having it both ways. One way-San- Dean was right in saving Sam’s life in the only way he could at the time – Have Zeke/Gad ride Sam (new canon-I didn’t write it or make it up) Gad was riding Sam not possessing him. Dean was still following his core belief about not selling your soul. There was no cost. Dean had confirmation the angel was good. Sam doesn’t seem p.o.’d about Gad riding him. Frankly I don’t know wth Sam is p.o.’d at Dean about at this point. If he knows and knew what went on -that Gad was healing him and Sam new that Gad was looking for redemption or whatever it was that Sam stated he felt what Gad was feeling way back at the beginning-then why all the drama? Why tell your brother he has done nothing but bad??? Like I said before I absoulutely Hate hate hate that story arc. Almost as bad as Sam not looking for Dean.

    As for the Sam killing Dean or Dean killing Sam-not going to happen. I think its going to play as an ultimatum type situation. Metatron threatens Sams life (thus the Dean leaving Sam behind in this episode scene-foreshadowing). Metatron wants Dean to be his soldier. And he forces Dean to accept the full force of the blade-and it consumes all of Dean. Maybe Sam and Dean argue again about Sam coming with Dean or something like that. Sams choice to come. The choices they make in the finale is supposed to be big. Cas is taken down by Metatron because once again he trusted the wrong guy -Gad. Same old same old when it comes to cas. Just my thought. Maybe the final scene could be that Metatron then orders Dean to kill Sam and that’s the last thing we see is Dean hovering over Sam.

    Comment by animal — May 10, 2014 @ 12:23 pm

  163. JT – I think it would be horrible for Sam to kill Dean under ANY circumstance, incl. self-defense. Dean was willing to let Lucifer beat him to death just so Sam wouldn’t “die” alone but I just don’t think it would play well if Sam killed Dean to protect himself.

    I agree that this recent version of the possession negates the first half of the season and makes Sam’s anger unjustified. The writing is just bad IMO. Sam should remember nothing from the possession. It’s silly to act like he now does!

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 10, 2014 @ 12:27 pm

  164. Oh and the quote you quoted from 9.09- obviously Gad was just lying to Dean. Sam was there -Sam said so in this episode. Gad was playing to Deans emotions. Trying to hurt him in the worst way he could. Sams well being.

    Comment by animal — May 10, 2014 @ 12:34 pm

  165. I don’t know though-Metatron ORDERS Dean to kill Sam. The blade to me seems more powerful than Metatron. Like if anything Dean would do the ordering. I keep remembering something Misha said in an interview. Something about metatron having a different face. Or something like that. Kinda sounded like somebody takes over Metatrons job. Maybe that’s cas. I don’t know. my head hurts

    Comment by animal — May 10, 2014 @ 12:41 pm

  166. @160 JT. I agree. They had some deflecting to do:


    Dean: Oh, yeah. Yeah, life as an angel condom. That’s real fun. I think I’ll pass, thanks.


    Trickster: What’s the difference? Satan’s going to ride his [Sam’s] ass one way or another.


    Dean: There’s an archangel there wanting me to drop the soap.

    But most of all 9.12

    Dean: Anything on Gadreel?

    Sam: Actually, uh, yeah. Turns out he, uh, he left some Grace in me before he bolted.

    Dean: You know how wrong that sounds, right?

    Sam: Wouldn’t worry about it. Cas took care of it.

    Dean [Chuckles] Hmm.

    Sam: What?

    Dean: Nothing. I’m gone for two weeks, and you’re like an episode of “Teen Mom.”



    Sam said he wasn’t possessed completely. Of course it’s important for Sam to make that distinction. He was himself while Gadreel hid away in him (well, pretty much himself considering some uncharacteristic behavior…). Completely possessed would be when Meg walked around pretending to be Sam or when Sam was possessed by Lucifer or when Gadreel took over in 9.09-9.10.

    Re: “obviously Gad was just lying to Dean. Sam was there -Sam said so in this episode.”

    No, Gadreel had Sam locked away in a dream and Sam would have probably stayed that way till he burned out or Dean would have stabbed him in the heart if it wasn’t for Crowley alerting Sam to the situation. Only then did Sam remember what he had seen while being possessed like killing Kevin.

    Re: “There was no cost.”

    Why not tell Sam then? Why agree to let the angel erase Sam’s memories?

    Comment by San Summer — May 10, 2014 @ 1:09 pm

  167. @San 166 “Why not tell Sam then?” -how many times have I said it-again you gloss over it everytime I post it. Dean COULD NOT tell Sam. Gad would have concealed it from Sam -washed his memory of it. Or now that we know Sam wasn’t possessed. He would have possessed him 100% -all of him-all of the time.(at least that is what Dean thought afterwards) Then Sam would have been possessed instead of just ridden. Infact didn’t Gad threaten Dean with that in one of the episodes? I think he did. It was during one of those times Dean tried to tell Sam. You know the one-The time when they were in the hotel room and Sam was going on about always having something wrong with him. Dean couldn’t stand Sam blaming himself so Dean started to tell Sam about what he did -and Gad took over Sam. That is why Dean couldn’t tell Sam.

    I think you are misunderstanding Dean in this situation. Dean COULDN”T TELL Sam what he did. But Dean WANTED TO tell Sam.

    And I noticed you didn’t post Sam and Cas’ conversation. Come on San- be fair. Post it.

    Comment by animal — May 10, 2014 @ 1:20 pm

  168. re: No, Gadreel had Sam locked away in a dream and Sam would have probably stayed that way till he burned out or Dean would have stabbed him in the heart if it wasn’t for Crowley alerting Sam to the situation. Only then did Sam remember what he had seen while being possessed like killing Kevin.

    Gadreel was lying-Sam was locked away in a dream-but he wasn’t dead and gone or burned out -which is what Gad was implying when he said Sam was gone. Dean still had access to Sam. Thus he was able to send Crowley in to have Sam dispatch Gad.
    I think the possession argument is getting lost here. We know that when one is possessed by a demon sometimes they are awake and sometimes they are sleeping. Meg/human Meg example. They can be awake and aware but unable to move their body on their own. Very rarely do we see a demon giving up control to the human they are possessing. Only once did we see that -(the nurse that Sam drank).

    What we also know is that angel possession doesn’t always burn out the vessel. Cas’ vessel Jimmy was just fine when Cas left it. Oh so is Cas possessing Jimmy and is that a bad thing? Just asking. :) So was Zeke/Gad’s vessel. The bartender was just fine. So its easy to get to Sam was fine as well -he wouldn’t burn out. I guess when you have an angel letting you be you (sharing the body/vessel) instead of being 100% overtaken its not considered possession. Even if the angel takes over for a little while. Its called being ridden not possessed. This is the only explanation I can give. And once again-Sam said it. He wasn’t possessed.

    Comment by animal — May 10, 2014 @ 1:40 pm

  169. @animal. It has already been posted here. Ctrl+F. Sam says it clearly “He didn’t possess me, completely” and that was shown. No one discounted Sam as a character when Sam thanked Dean for always watching his back in Bad Boys etc. Why? Because it wasn’t Gadreel talking. However, Gadreel did possess Sam when Dean got Sam to say yes, when Gadreel took it upon himself to take control to Dean’s dismay (or not) and finally when Gadreel was done hiding and wanted to be the one in charge and locked Sam in a dream so he could use Sam as a vessel. It should also be noted that in 9.01 Dean wasn’t sure if Sam would even wake up so apparently he thought he might have to hang out with Gadreel while the angel was wearing Sam and doing the healing.

    I think people are hearing it as “Sam says he wasn’t possessed” when there is a difference between that and “not completely possessed”.

    Re: “Dean COULD NOT tell Sam. Gad would have concealed it from Sam -washed his memory of it.”

    No, Dean thought Sam should know until Gadreel brought up the possibility that Sam would not understand. That made Dean agree to lie. The possibility that Gadreel would erase Sam’s memories didn’t come up until afterwards and Dean agreed to it.


    Gadreel: He will not feel me, no. There is no reason for Sam to know I’m in here at all.
    Dean: You’re joking. No, this is – this is too big.
    Gadreel: And what will he do if you do tell him he is possessed by an angel?
    Dean: Well, he’ll have to understand.
    Gadreel: And if he does not? Without his acceptance, Sam can eject me at any time, especially with me so weak. And if Sam does eject me, he will die.
    Dean: Then we keep it a secret for now. Or until Sam’s well enough that he doesn’t need an angelic pacemaker or I find a way to tell him. I – I… As for him being in a hospital, I’ll have to figure something out.
    Gadreel: I can erase it all, if you like. He will not remember any of this.

    It continued on in 9.08. Again Dean didn’t tell Sam because he was afraid Sam wouldn’t want to stay possessed.

    Gadreel: I wouldn’t do that, Dean.
    Dean: He deserves to know.
    Gadreel: Your brother is not ready. If he ejects me, he will not make it.
    Dean: Damn it, Zeke! How much longer we got to keep playing this?
    Gadreel: Not much longer. I promise you that.

    9.08 was the only episode where Dean thought he shouldn’t keep lying anymore. It was never implied that Dean thought it was some sort of hostage situation because he continued on like usual without taking any precautions.

    Comment by San Summer — May 10, 2014 @ 1:56 pm

  170. @163Lisa1, I wouldn’t want to see Sam kill Dean either–and I doubt that he can. Cain’s lived for countless eons. If he can only be killed by the Blade, the same may be true of Dean.

    I’m wondering about something. When Carver said the brothers would discover their bond was deeper than even they could suspect, wasn’t he talking about this season? If so, how would that gel with what JA said? Paraphrasing here: “wow, oh wow, I never thought they’d go there”?

    What we know is that Sam HAS to let Dean use the Blade; otherwise, there won’t be any way to stop Metatron or Crowley. It’s obvious from the clip for next week that Sam doesn’t want Dean using the Blade unnecessarily because the more he does, the more control the MOC/Blade has over Dean’s mind and body. But, of course, Dean’s going to use the Blade anyway because he’s addicted to it and enjoys the rush and sense of power it gives him.

    So@162, animal, you could be right. Maybe what we’ll see in the finale is Dean completely taken over by the evil power of the Blade. I’m not sure about Metatron, though. To me, he seems too wussy for the major villain role. Maybe the evil influence of the MOC and Blade will turn “Dean” into the Big Bad of next season. Dean–or, rather, the instrument Dean would become–could be the most terrifying baddie the series has ever had. And it would be up to Sam to stop him.

    Comment by JT — May 10, 2014 @ 2:08 pm

  171. In 9.01 that you quoted do you think Gad would have let Dean tell Sam at that point?? Honestly you really don’t think Dean had reservations from that point on that he made a mistake? In 9.02 you saw when he talked to Gad in the bar-Dean had questions. He had doubts. Dean knew from what you quoted that something right there wasn’t right. But Like I said-Dean saw a win win at that point. Gad was healing Sam. That was Deans motivation. Not deceiving Sam. So what did you want him to do? He could not tell Sam. Come on San-you are a smart person. You KNOW Dean could not tell Sam anything at that point or on. And you KNOW Dean wanted to. And you saw what happened when Dean tried to do the spell that would let him speak to Sam.

    Comment by animal — May 10, 2014 @ 2:10 pm

  172. Oh sorry -my 171 response was to San @169.

    I know JT-And Mishas “spoiler” made it sound like it is someone else or something happens to Metatron. I don’t like the idea of Dean being the big bad for next season. But at the DC con Jensen said “Dean is gone-lost” or something like that. So that would make sense. And both J’s confirmed (kinda) that their relationship is not fixed.

    You know when I said I wanted Dean to be a badass/kickass hero. I wasn’t talking about him turning into a mental case / nut case killer. I wanted him to be Dean from s1-4. This show has lost its humor. Jensen brought the humor but he can’t play humor with this blade arc. I am kinda missing that Dean right now. I love the blade story arc though but I am torn. And man am I po’d that the writers gave Misha one of Jensens/Deans lines- “I am going to be sick”. Can I throw up now?

    Comment by animal — May 10, 2014 @ 2:20 pm

  173. @171 animal

    Dean wanted to tell Sam in 9.01 and 9.08 but not enough to test whether Sam would agree to stay possessed. That was his main motivation to keep lying. Not being reserved about Gadreel.


    [Gadreel’s eyes glow blue again and he is gone.]
    Sam: What?
    DEAN [looking guilty and exhausted] What?
    Sam: What? What — what’s not me?
    Dean: Nothing. I just — I-I meant that…if there is something wrong…it’s not your fault. We’ll deal with it. But you got to have a little faith, Sammy.


    Dean [to Gadreel]: Why are you doing this, huh? We fought together. And I trusted you. I thought you were one of the good guys!

    It doesn’t show that Dean knew Gadreel was acting shady. Otherwise he would have done research before he found out the angel had pretended to be Ezekiel — especially since it took Kevin only a couple of hours to come up with a spell. Not that hard to do some digging if he was already feeling suspicious since he had his very own prophet and an angel tablet in the house plus a collection of books that seemed to surpass even Cas’ knowledge about his own species. Dean’s actions regarding Gadreel were probably a mixture of going on faith, being in denial and genuinely trusting the angel because he had proved to be useful.

    Comment by San Summer — May 10, 2014 @ 2:40 pm

  174. @San-no San-Dean had one motivation-one. Save Sam. Not going on faith, denial or complete trust-Just -save Sam. Dean had concerns from the get go. s9e2 confirms the fears he had. He said he hoped Zeke was one of the good guys. He wasn’t sure of that at all from s9e1 otherwise he wouldn’t have said what he said in s9e2. He also new at that time that he couldn’t take the chance of Zeke leaving Sam-because Sam would die or Zeke could take over Sam 100% (possession). As for doing research?? uMMMMMMMMMMM Sam-research-save Dean from Purgatory? Goes both ways there.

    And yea I think Dean did get complacent with Zeke after his initial concerns when the angel fought with Dean and had his back and saved Charlie when Dean asked. But I don’t think he ever truly stopped being concerned about Zeke and what he could do.

    Comment by animal — May 10, 2014 @ 3:00 pm

  175. @san174 And again-please answer me this time-how do you think Dean could have told Sam about Zeke?? How do you wash the fact that early on Sam would have died if Dean did anything that p.o’d the angel. Dean ONLY looked to tell Sam later on knowing that at that poing Sam was healed enough that if the angel was p.o’d Sam might be able to fight the angel off. Dean did what needed to be done once he knew Sam was out of danger.

    Comment by animal — May 10, 2014 @ 3:06 pm

  176. Dean did the research once he knew Sam was safe.

    Comment by animal — May 10, 2014 @ 3:08 pm

  177. Man this conversation is kinda off topic now isn’t it?? Going from what Sam said in the episode about possession to going back and debating the possession/now angel riding that took place back on s9e1 again for how many times?? I know you won’t change my mind San-and I know I won’t change your mind. Lets agree to disagree-peace!!

    Comment by animal — May 10, 2014 @ 3:14 pm

  178. @172, animale–you can, and so will I. Oh, darn, I was just throwing out some dumb speculation about Dean turning Big Bad. But JA’s comment that Dean is “gone-lost” is truly disturbing.

    I completely agree with your description of what Dean should be in the series. And I think almost all the viewers would be FURIOUS if he were actually “gone-lost” and made into the villain of the show. SN has failed miserably this season because of the way Carver set the boys against one another. If he does that kind of thing again next season and, worse, makes Dean a crazed, vicious baddie, people will be so incensed, many will stop watching the show. I know I will.

    Okay–not to worry, I tell myself. Unless things have radically changed, JP and JA aren’t allowed to “read ahead” by more than two or three scripts. So they’re most likely basing their comments on what happens this season, not next. So maybe we WILL see a “gone-lost” Dean in the finale, but Carver will turn things around in the first or first few episodes of S10. He can’t be so stupid that he doesn’t realize it’s the relationship between the boys that sells this show.

    So maybe Carver WILL give us a “gone-lost” Dean in the finale and for a couple of episodes next season, but if it lasts much longer than that, the CW will not be happy with the ratings.

    I don’t understand…the boys relationship isn’t fixed? Do you mean they won’t be making up? Well, I guess we shouldn’t expect them to before next season.

    Maybe Dean will become villainous under the influence of the MOC/Blade and, following Crowley’s urging, raise the Knights of Hell. Possibly a war will rage between the Knights of Hell and the angels, with Dean and Crowley on one side and Sam and Castiel on the other. Then by 10.2 or 10.3, Sam will manage to turn Dean around and the two will fight on the same side.

    Okay, that stunk. I don’t know.I’m at a loss. Heck, we had dark Sam for good grief! How long? I don’t even want to think about the total mess Carver could make of this series. He’s done a bang up job of that so far.

    Comment by JT — May 10, 2014 @ 3:20 pm

  179. Sorry, animal! Your post shook me up so much I added an e-eeeee! to your name.

    Comment by JT — May 10, 2014 @ 3:25 pm

  180. @animal.

    Gadreel’s agenda worked with Dean’s. Dean didn’t want to tell Sam because he was worried Sam would rather die than be possessed. That’s why he agreed to trick Sam in the first place. If he had realized right away in 9.01 that Gadreel had him by the balls then he would have done things to ensure Gadreel could not just take off with Sam. He could have alerted Kevin and Cas to the situation, found out about a spell that would let him talk to Sam even while he was possessed etc.

    Comment by San Summer — May 10, 2014 @ 3:31 pm

  181. #JT 178- Yea that conversation at the con was disturbing. Jensen said and Jared agreed that reguarding the brothers relationship-if s9 was the last season of the series then yea you need to worry about the boys relationship. But with s10 there is time to fix it. So that sounds like they aren’t fixed yet. And the Dean is gone/lost-Carver and company are making a big mistake if they keep Dean gone/lost much longer. I agree with you there. SPN needs Deans/Jensens humor. Its part of what made this show great. Without his humor the show is flat. Jared is great at bouncing off of Jensen’s humor and he can do humor but Sam is more of a serious person-comedy coming from Sam seems out of place to me. And Misha is just corny as hell. His joke delivery is horrible.

    Comment by animal — May 10, 2014 @ 3:32 pm

  182. SAn-yea he could have done that-but think further into that story. Would Dean have taken that chance at that time?? Knowing Sam would die if Dean did anything to piss off the angel. Even the solution that Dean finally came up with (when Sam was strong enough) -the spell- it was for Sam to expel the angel. Dean couldn’t have used that solution at the beginning. Sam would have died. Come on man-Dean had no option. His motivation-only motivation-Sam live-Save Sam-that is what Dean is all about in this whole series for 9 season for goodness sake. He never would have accepted that solution at the beginning anyway. Expel the angel – Sam dies. Not in Deans vocabulary at that point anyway. If there is a way to save Sam Dean will do it. Its only if there was no way to save Sam-Dean would have let Sam die. Dean would not have made a deal -soul, death whatever kind of deal. The angel riding was a win win.

    Comment by animal — May 10, 2014 @ 3:40 pm

  183. @animal. Dean intended to tell Sam until Gadreel reminded him that Sam could choose not to be possessed. That got Dean to back off. Not the fear of retaliation from Gadreel.

    Dean not doing anything to improve his and Sam’s odds in case the Ezekiel situation didn’t pan out proves that he wasn’t that concerned about the angel. Any doubts he had he either suppressed or came to think that they had been unfounded. He gave the angel a nickname, talked with him extensively even though it meant Sam would be missing time etc.

    Dean was looking to make a deal when he went to Crowley in 9.01 but he probably figured he had enough leverage over him that he wouldn’t have to resort to selling his soul like Bobby etc.

    Comment by San Summer — May 10, 2014 @ 4:07 pm

  184. @181, animal, I’m glad to read that the Js were talking about this season, not the next one. Your description of what Dean brings to the series is perfect. I think everybody gets tired of all the doom and gloom; the “fun ride” Kripke wanted vanished a long time ago-and Castiel certainly doesn’t help.

    I suppose Carver could go to any extreme he wants to with Gavin out there. He could make Dean another Crowley, then turn things back to the way they should be once Sam forced Gavin to repair whatever he broke. I don’t want to see Carver going that “creative,” though. I’d just like Sam and Dean to get beck to being Sam and Dean.

    Comment by JT — May 10, 2014 @ 5:11 pm

  185. The whole problem is that it is of no use to speculate on what might happen in the next two episodes. When there is no through-story, when the characters are driven by the plot (as they have been for two years or more now), when you can’t rely on canon (which leads to you can’t trust sub-text), and characterization is totally ignored (because the plot is driving the actions and dialogue of the characters) it means the writers can write whatever they want to write.

    They literally can write any far-fetched, cock-eyed thing they want, because there is nothing within the story, history of the show, or the characterization that prevents them from doing so.

    Comment by Sheri — May 10, 2014 @ 5:47 pm

  186. Gah. What has happened to this show? Why on earth do we all have to worry and wonder all-the-damn-time if Sam and Dean will actually be Sam and Dean?!?

    Who takes extremely successful characters and that have built a well-loved show… and just trashes them this way and that way and the other way until nobody knows if they will ever see those characters and their relationship again.
    Who are these people making these decisions? I don’t get it. AT ALL.

    The show WORKS with Sam and Dean being Sam and Dean. That is the reality of the show. For storylines, there are virtually unlimited things one could do with a show called “Supernatural”… things that don’t involve relentlessly trashing the beloved characters that made the show actually work so well!!!

    I adore the show, but I have actually skipped watching some episodes even though I have them recorded… because I could not bear to watch when I knew the Sam and Dean relationship was being torn apart yet again (that is, when Sam and Dean actually showed up on screen) and there would be no attempt to repair it until it draggggggged out for weeks or months or more…
    I can’t take that anymore… so I made my decision.

    When I think about what made the show great, and what potential there is for it to go on to be great… I really miss it.
    I’m kind of annoyed at myself for constantly holding out hope for better decision making about the show… but I can’t help it. I still have a little bit of hope. I think.

    Comment by Jordan — May 10, 2014 @ 6:13 pm

  187. @139- I have NEVER given excuses for Dean’s fuckups! Not one time!
    And I HAVE had a lot good to say about Sam WITHOUT following them with a criticism. You can despise me all you want but outright LIES I won’t stand for!
    You and a couple of others here on the other hand, have NEVER, not one fucking time, had one positive thing to say about Dean, thinking always the very worst of him. And that’s NOT a lie.
    I don’t hate on anyone that disagrees with me. I get irritated when someone makes claims against a character when ALL evidence ever shown depicts the exact OPPOSITE, of that claim!
    For anybody to have ever watched this show to claim that Dean has EVER thought Sam was inferior to him is just ridiculous, just as the claim that Dean just wants to use and hurt Sam. For anybody to actually believe that after watching this show for so long tells me that it has to be a case of that person seeing that character deliberately in the most negative light possible because they dislike the character.
    I don’t give a shit that you or anybody else hates Dean,people can hate whoever they want and he’s just a character in a tv show! But at least admit it. I’m done.

    Comment by roxi — May 10, 2014 @ 6:49 pm

  188. I don’t understand why they couldn’t contain the fight between Sam and Dean in season 9. Over three months’ worth of episodes of that is plenty long for the viewers and for the writers to examine the characters from that point of view. Then they could have had season 10 (final season?) be the season of Sam and Dean as brothers and have the show be how it started. About the Winchesters.

    They had a golden idea when they came up with Cain/Abel & Sam/Dean but they have squandered that. There was a time when I thought the myth arc should stretch over till season 10 so proper attention could be paid to it since it seemed to be an opportunity to tell the story of just Sam and Dean. Now I don’t have much interest anymore. There was so little movement in the story when it came to Dean and Sam still hasn’t been part of it (does he even know about Lucifer?). No excitement left anymore much like they ruined Gadreel’s plot when they dropped it after episode Road Trip. I guess they could try to resuscitate it if Sam still has some grace left in him.

    Comment by San Summer — May 10, 2014 @ 7:16 pm

  189. @186. I completely agree. I’m frustrated and feel bad for the show for the same reasons.

    @188. Again, I completely agree. The (latest) fight between Sam and Dean has dragged on more than long enough.

    It definitely was a golden idea when they came up with the Cain/Abel storyline. It could have been fantastic. Instead they have paid little attention to it for episode after episode and so many opportunities are lost and now… something will happen in the last episode of the season I guess?
    I really hope the season finale is not just an episode that exists only to set up season 10… something to set up more of (yet another) BIG FIGHT non-storyline in season 10. Bleh.
    Please let me be wrong in thinking that!

    Comment by beothy — May 10, 2014 @ 7:39 pm

  190. @ Jordan #186: I think a lot of us feel the same way. I usually like to rewatch a season during the summer, but I have no plans on watching anything from S8 or S9 again.

    @ San Summer #188: I wasn’t happy early on when I realized that this was supposed to be a coming-of-age story teen angst story for the 30-something Winchesters on a show called Supernatural, but they have even squandered that stupid idea. Every single good plot bunny these writers have brought up just jumps right back into a hole, never to be explored again.

    Like you, at first I wanted the MoC to go over to S10, but not any more. All it amounts to is more of what little has been shown — the Winchesters at odds. Cas, Crowley, and guest stars will carry a flimsy story and the Winchesters’ melodrama will make an appearance in four or five episodes the entire season. It’s to the point of being tedious.

    Comment by Sheri — May 10, 2014 @ 7:48 pm

  191. @beothy. I agree. On top of that it seems like the last two episodes will be about the angels. In a way it had to go like that since that has been the theme of the season — but not in a good way.

    Talks about a big twist and a cliffhanger have pretty much confirmed that the show won’t be back to Sam and Dean being Sam and Dean. It wouldn’t have worked in any case since apparently Carver and Singer thought that keeping the brothers at odds for over half of this season wasn’t enough time to do any real development for their relationship. Sam and possession thing, who the hell knows. Probably there just to cause a falling out considering they haven’t exactly studied Sam as a character. Dean’s mark of Cain story has been featured basically in three episodes and that’s counting the first one which was episode number 11.

    @Sheri. “at first I wanted the MoC to go over to S10, but not any more.”

    That says it all! I know it has been a really big wish for many to have Dean carry a myth arc and justifiably so.

    “Every single good plot bunny these writers have brought up just jumps right back into a hole, never to be explored again.”

    Oh yeah, it’s clear they did not have a real plan going in. First Sam and Dean were supposed to cure demons since they dropped the trials, then they were a bit worried how the angels fell but nothing came of it, then in the mid-season finale two warring angel factions were introduced (Carver said this season would be like The Game of Thrones) but the next time Bartholomew appears, Cas kills him and the other guy was killed off-screen and his death was announced in episode 21. Cas’ grace issues were also introduced in the mid-season finale but brought up as an obvious foreshadowing in episode 18 without there being any indication before that Cas was feeling uncomfortable about his grace burning out.

    Comment by San Summer — May 10, 2014 @ 8:29 pm

  192. I think the whole MOC thing was just something they threw out there to basically try to shut up fans who had lamented Dean not having an important storyline of his own for so long, but it hasn’t worked because it has been written shabbily and only touched on sporadically while the angel storyline is the one that’s really closest to the writer’s and Carver’s heart. I think it’s just a case of “See? We’re making Dean have importance!”, but both he and Sam are becoming more and more side characters in their own show.

    Comment by roxi — May 10, 2014 @ 8:44 pm

  193. @roxi. I really dislike how the mark of Cain seems to have been more about keeping the brothers at odds so the writers don’t actually have to resolve anything.

    To add to the list of plots that never went anywhere… how every second new souls get stuck inside the veil but that problem hasn’t been brought up once after it was introduced. Maybe in the next episode.

    Comment by San Summer — May 10, 2014 @ 8:55 pm

  194. @194- I know San, the aftermath of the possession and the deception,the trapped souls, and just what exactly the burden of the mark is, all get lip service because we have to get Cas being the leader of the angels in.
    Well, at least in the first half, Jared got to play a duel role but now it looks like being at odds with and now being worried about Dean,is his only plot this season a big change from when he used to get most of the main storylines. And while we thought that Dean was finally getting an important arc, it’s only been dropped in bits and pieces here and there. And I just read some spoilers that tell that Cas will play a big role in the mytharc. So more than likely Cas will somehow take the mark away from Dean and Dean’s “big arc” will be taken from him. Again.
    What I would like to see is Sam tracking down and encountering Cain himself, and finding out straight from him what exactly he can expect to happen to Dean. And what Sam might be able to do about it. As I’ve said before, I’d really like that to be their story together, but as it’s barely even Dean’s story at the moment, well. We’ve seen Dean’s interaction with Cain, which I thought was great, now I think it would be equally interesting to see Sam interacting with him.There are pictures from the upcoming episodes showing Sam with Cas. Is it too much to hope they are tracking down Cain together? But I’m guessing thay it has something to do with Metatron and angels.

    Comment by roxi — May 10, 2014 @ 10:21 pm

  195. It’s as if, lacking a master plan or the guts to enforce it, Carver took a hands-off approach that turned into a free-for-all, with each of his creators working according to his or her individual taste, style, and whim, indifferent to the integrity of the overall structure or even common sense. Thus, we have a pointless hodgepodge of staircases leading to nowhere, closets opening on blank walls, rooms left unfinished or built around other rooms, windows that look out on walls, doors that open to steep, treacherous drops, chimneys that never reach the ceiling–in other words, the Winchester Mystery House.

    I guess Carver figured if he built it, they would come. Come they might, but they won’t stay.

    Comment by JT — May 10, 2014 @ 10:40 pm

  196. @195- Didn’t some rich, paranoid lady on the West Coast in the 19th century have a house built like that?
    My feeling is this angel/heaven story, as well as the character of Cas, is very close to Carver’s heart. At this point I wish the angels would all just go away.
    When Cas was first introduced, he was an intriguing character, and I thought Misha had instant strong chemistry with Jensen, and later Jared and Jim. And the angels seemed to actually be the agents of God, with serving what they thought was the will of God being their main purpose. Raphael, to me, when he was first introduced was more frightening than any of the monsters that have been on the show, and that’s the way are in angel lore: beings to be feared and revered. Now, they resemble human political parties. Angels should NEVER come across like humans do, cool kids and the uncool kids like in this last episode.
    But since Carver seems to be having this love affair with Cas and the angels, I guess that’s what we’ll be getting.

    Comment by roxi — May 11, 2014 @ 12:01 am

  197. San, Sheri, & Roxi – I couldn’t agree more w/you guys about this season, the arcs, and the way everything is shaking out. I have been disillusioned w/the season for several weeks now. Every single story has been horribly executed, IMO. This season is even more of a disaster than last season.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 11, 2014 @ 1:39 am

  198. @ roxi #194: When they announced Misha as a regular this season, I expected that the intention was to give him the mytharc. I didn’t expect it to be a completely separate story from the Winchesters, but that’s what we got. I think the season finale will be Cas-centric with the Winchesters the B-plot.

    @ JT #195: Re: “Carver took a hands-off approach that turned into a free-for-all, with each of his creators working according to his or her individual taste, style, and whim, indifferent to the integrity of the overall structure or even common sense.”

    That sums it up. Carver was still doing his part in Being Human, so I think he probably just managed the business end of SPN and no one actually took control, although I think Singer was supposed to. My guess is that all of them are just milking SPN for the paycheck it provides.

    @ roxi #196: Yes, The Winchester Mystery House in San Jose, California. The crazy lady was the wife of William Winchester, the son of Oliver Winchester, who was the major shareholder in the company that made the Winchester rifles and handguns. When Oliver died, William took over his shares, but died a year later of TB. His wife was obviously nutty as a fruit cake, or was drank the same Kool-Aid our group of current writers drink.

    @ Lisa1 #197: I am so disgusted with Carver and his team of writers, and nothing about the show is going to get better until it ends because they aren’t going anywhere.

    Comment by Sheri — May 11, 2014 @ 5:44 am

  199. There are so many unanswered questions even when it comes to episode 9.01 but it seems like they won’t bother to explore that.

    The actual writer of an episode had intended for Sam to say out loud to Cas that he was worried about Dean. Then it got cut off. Why? A nice answer would be “show don’t tell” but they probably just wanted to make sure the conflict could stretch longer and thought nothing of making the brothers time onscreen even smaller.

    Sam and Dean should be the focus and others should be there to support their story. These are the perfect descriptions of what is going on now (from the episode synopses)
    “Castiel captures one of Metatron’s angels and asks Sam and Dean for help with the interrogation.”
    “After a massive attack on the angels, Castiel calls Sam and Dean for help.”

    @194. It would be awesome to have Cain back and it could definitely offer some nice tension if the most famous man who committed fratricide talked to the little brother… Especially considering Sam’s history with demons, Lucifer, corruption. However, I think Sam and Cas are looking for the portal to Heaven.

    @195. They really have revealed that they didn’t have a master plan going in. I think that at the start of the season Jensen said something like they have all the balls in the air and will see what sticks. Well, it leads to stuff like the Bartholomew and Malachi who are then quickly dropped because no one cared (including the writers).

    @196. Angels were introduced as being so powerful that they could be more terrifying than demons but I’d take Alistair over the angels without a doubt. It’s sad because ideally the show would be richer for having angels vs. demons etc.

    The story goes that the widower to Winchester rifle manufacturer heard that the spirits of ones who had been killed by the rifles were angry so she could never stop building her house. She was a rich lady so they actually built and rebuilt 24 hours a day till she died. I always thought the surname Kripke chose for the characters was perfect. :D It has the ghost connection, gun connection, “Win” and sounds good.

    Comment by San Summer — May 11, 2014 @ 6:08 am

  200. roxi, Sheri and San Summer, exactly. The medium told her, “You can never stop building the house. If you continue building, you will live. Stop and you will die.”

    So from Kripke’s series about two brother hunters wandering a desolate landscape on their lonely mission to battle mysterious, supernatural evil, we’ve descended to a chaotic labyrinth of angels, demons, and monsters crowding, pushing, jostling for plot lines, while the Winchesters peek out from the shadows.

    The brilliantly simple, “You can never go home again” has become the maniacal, “You can never stop building the house.”

    Comment by JT — May 11, 2014 @ 6:59 am

  201. The problem is JC has shown very little interest in this show. He has been an AWFUL showrunner! Say what you will about Sera, but her two seasons weren’t incredibly disjointed; they both had definite themes and overarching arcs. I’m not saying her seasons were perfect but I enjoyed them more than anything JC has done!

    JC has done nothing to ensure that a consistent story is told. As someone said, each writer is left to write whatever he/she wants regardless of what was written before. For instance, if Sam was feeling like another being was present in his body then that should have been stated DURING that plot. Show Sam mentioning it to Dean, then Zeke emerging, and Dean questioning what Zeke was doing. AFAIC, Zeke mostly stayed hidden during his possession of Sam only to emerge when necessary. You don’t have Sam say in the 20th episode way AFTER that plot that he always felt like there was a presence within him. That makes no sense. I had problems with the possession story anyway and the fact that Sam wasn’t making more of a fuss about losing time. No, as usual, they wait until the conclusion of the episode to have Sam say a little something about that.

    Don’t even get me started on the Cas human plot, Crowley’s blood addiction, the angels falling, the MoC, Abbadon’s reappearance, the Crowley/Abbadon fight – all these stories have been horribly executed, IMO. A lot of these stories are also pointless and amounted to nothing! Does anyone really care if the angels are returned to Heaven? I don’t! They don’t have a plan against humanity that I can see so who cares? what was the point of Cas’s humanity? Crowley’s blood addiction?

    As a whole, this season has been awful. I doubt they can pull it together for me in the next two episodes. I won’t spend the summer worrying about anything w/r/t this show. Dean can kill Sam for all I care and become the KoH. It will likely be turned around in 1-2 episodes anyway.

    With Revolution being cancelled, I wish Kripke would return to his show. This was his baby, he should be allowed to finish it out.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 11, 2014 @ 7:08 am

  202. I would love for Kripke to come back and be the showrunner. At least we would get coherent story telling.

    Unlike most of you I have liked this season. No I don’t think it was a golden season. But I stopped watching SPN as a “whole picture” kind of deal 2 seasons ago. I watch per episode not big picture. It makes it a lot more tolerable to me. I liked cas away from the brothers. I liked Sam’s angel riding/possession thing per episode not as a big picture -because then I hated it. I love love love Deans MOC/blade story but I am missing the comedic side of Dean/Jensen. Its makes the episodes flat to me. One dimensional. Instead of rich in story telling. I liked the fillers for what they were-fillers. But in a big picture view-they were ridiculous. IMO TPTB need to cut the season to 18-20 episodes next season and keep the flow of the story going. The spinoff-well we all know how that turned out. Waste of time, money, and waste of Sam/Dean on screen.

    Season 8 was the worst to me. I hated hated hated it then and I hate it now. This season doesn’t even come close to the problems last season had. Season 7 was the next worst to me. This season kinda ties with 5 and 6 in how I felt about those season.

    Comment by animal — May 11, 2014 @ 8:05 am

  203. @JT “The brilliantly simple, “You can never go home again” has become the maniacal, “You can never stop building the house.”

    A great way to put it!

    @Lisa1. Yeah, I bought the season 6 DVD over Christmas and I’ve watched some of those episodes. There are definitely problems but there is good stuff too and especially compared to how things are now. The brothers were way more of a focus. Sam’s soullessness was better carried throughout the episodes than Dean’s mark of Cain story. Back then the show even looked better, it had a darker quality.

    Crowley’s blood addiction story makes me sad because I was actually excited it about for a while. The reason being that it dealt with Sam and Dean. Not anymore.

    Road Trip was very promising when it set up Crowly’s and Abaddon’s fight for the crown but she went off-screen after that so nothing came of it.

    Cas’ human plot… I guess he’ll be confronted with the question whether he’ll stay as a human when his grace burns out or will he try to become angel again. Keep him as an angel. His human story was pronounced as a bust even on the show.

    As far as the angels falling, I’d say the brothers didn’t make much further than where they were in 9.02

    Dean: Right now we got bigger worries.

    Sam: The fallen angels?

    Dean: Yeah. I mean, thanks to Metatron, we now have a couple of thousand confused loose nukes walking around down here.

    Sam: What do you think they’re gonna do?

    Dean: I got no damn clue.

    Comment by San Summer — May 11, 2014 @ 8:06 am

  204. San – I loved S6, and that’s because I really didn’t care for S5. Why? In short, I didn’t care for the way Sam’s S4 actions were handled. I really, really HATED “Fallen Idols.” I also thought the depiction of the Apocalypse was super weak, and that was the first season I noticed “filler” episodes. I remember a string of pointless episodes and then AAH (another episode I hated). I did really love Swan Song though and a few other episodes in the season (TRG, TSRTS, TE, MBV, introduction to Death scene, Brady episode).

    Given how I felt about S5, I expected S6 to be awful. Imagine my surprise when I loved it. I loved EOMS and every single episode until that Titanic one. I really enjoyed the Soulless!Sam arc and the Wall story. I think the Campbells were horribly misused, and the MOA story fell flat for me. To me, the first half of the season (1-14) were the strongest. Things fell apart – for me – in the second half of the season though I loved TFM and the episode where Cas dropped Sam’s wall.

    I thought the first three episodes of S7 were great, but then it all fell apart. HCW remains one of my top 10 episodes.

    The last Supernatural season I own is 7, and I got it as a Christmas gift. It may still be in its packaging! I don’t plan to get 8,9, or 10. Yes, I’m predicting that I will hate S10 too. I may even stop watching. I’ve been watching so long that I want to see how their story ends.

    I agree w/everything you’ve written about this year’s plots.

    1. Cas’s humanity – Pointless. Keep him as an angel. That’s how he works best.

    2. Crowley’s blood addiction – Barely shown and utterly pointless.

    3. Sam’s possession – Just a reason for more brotherly angst and tension.

    4. Angels Falling – Pointless.

    5. Metatron – Who cares?

    6. Abbadon – Wasted.

    7. MOC – Great potential but poorly executed and may turn out to be pointless or the cause of more brotherly issues.

    Oddly, I’m ready for the new season. I want to see some new stories. I’m tired of this season. I think all the breaks made this season feel extra long. It doesn’t help that I haven’t been entertained at all. Even though I know there is no regime change, I still would like to see the conclusion of these stories and onto some new ones.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 11, 2014 @ 8:35 am

  205. For me there were many problems during season 6 and it was kind of funny trying to track down where I got before I decided to stop. But it wasn’t necessarily on season 6. I had already suffered a bit of a burnout during season 5. Some of those episodes are good when watched separately but at the time it was like “Was the five season plan all bullshit because why else would Sam and Dean have time to play poker or go to a convention?” And Swan Song… It just kind of left me numb. I actually hoped season 6 would be like tuning a new leaf but it wasn’t. A lot of it was the context though. Like now when I see soulless Sam I actually enjoy it a lot but back then I just wanted to see the real Sam and Dean. But then Sam came back and the show didn’t pick up for me… My biggest problem, however, was how Dean was handled. I didn’t care about Lisa and Ben so I really felt like Dean was shortchanged.

    And you are probably right that Sam’s fallout from season 4 was never properly addressed. “You chose a demon over your own brother” kind of just came the accepted canon even though it was one character’s point of view. The rest of the time Sam just tried to make things up.

    Brady was great! I wish he had lived longer, there was so much to explore because of the personal connection. He had a great look, too. But he killed Jessica so he had to go. I _love_ the moment where Sam and Dean go

    Dean: All those angels, all those demons, all those sons of bitches –They just don’t get it, do they, Sammy?

    Sam: No, they don’t, Dean.

    Dean: You see, Brady…We’re the ones you should be afraid of.

    Comment by San Summer — May 11, 2014 @ 9:31 am

  206. Haha! I managed to forgot all about Lisa/Ben. Yeah, they were pretty bad but they were better than Amelia. Dean’s story w/Lisa and Ben wasn’t anything I wanted to see but it still wasn’t as bad as the Amelia farce.

    I never had a problem w/SS. He was interesting to me. I just liked that entire arc so I was fine w/it. Again, for me, S6 was just miles better than S5 so I found myself very entertained.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 11, 2014 @ 9:58 am

  207. Yeah soulless Sam is great. My problem was that the brothers had been at conflict already for two seasons prior to season 6 so I was just ready to see them be SamnDean again. And I get impatient easily if I know more than the characters :) (a big problem I had when it came to The Walking Dead’s Andrea & Woodbury storyline).

    I had fun rediscovering season 6. Like originally I skipped episode Clap Your Hands If You Believe because the synopsis and preview just made me fed up but it’s actually a really funny episode and also offers great insight into how soulless Sam was. Makes me wonder if there is ever that kind of internal commentary inside Sam’s head but he just suppresses it :D

    You know what could have made Ben interesting? If they had cast Colin Ford as him (someone might’ve suggested it before). Like here you go Dean, here is someone who eerily looks like little Sammy, you can have him back and have a second chance. But it was probably good that they didn’t do that. :D That would have been some Twilight Zone stuff. Is Dean going crazy with grief so he is just imagining that Ben looks like his little brother? Much easier for Dean to leave the way it played out, I doubt many were crying that Dean was abandoning his son.

    Comment by San Summer — May 11, 2014 @ 10:25 am

  208. @ San Summer: ““Castiel captures one of Metatron’s angels and asks Sam and Dean for help with the interrogation.” After a massive attack on the angels, Castiel calls Sam and Dean for help.”

    That just tells me that the season’s story is Cas’ and the brothers have always been the B-plot.

    Kripke’s idea was of two modern day cowboys traveling the country in a steel horse, so I thought the Winchester name was very clever. That concept has been discarded in favor of feelings and soap melodrama.

    @ JT #200: LOL! Exactly right.

    I think everyone can give up on Kripke coming back. He might write an episode or two, but Carver is under contract for S10 and Being Human has been cancelled. He isn’t going anywhere. Besides, if EK came back, Dean’s MoC would be turned over to Sam and Dean would be back in the kitchen cooking. I do miss EK’s dialogue and music choices, though. I miss those two elements.

    Nor do I think Edlund will come back. He lost interest in SPN a couple of years prior to quitting, and I doubt that interest has returned.

    Comment by Sheri — May 11, 2014 @ 10:47 am

  209. Talking about the Carver era, I did read an interesting theory that the three season arc is supposed to mimic a “three act” story. I wonder if there’s anything to that? By that theory, we’re just finishing the “second act” when things are darkest, with next season being the “third act” when we see the various resolutions.

    As for Dean’s MOC, I imagine they’ll have him take his swan dive off the cliff in the finale, then that’ll be resolved in the first ep or so of S10. Sam and Cas only “went dark” on ep. each, and as others have mentioned, it’d be hard to carry the show with the brothers separated for a long time. I’d like/hope to see something big from Sam TRYING to get to Dean in the finale, but who knows.

    @San Summer: I’m surprised you didn’t like Lisa and Ben. I’ve seen this opinion around, and I seem to be one of the few that liked it :p. I thought it was needed development for Dean, who as of Season 5 (and 30 years old) had never had a relationship longer than a few weeks. I also liked that they made him CHOOSE hunting again, as previously hunting was just what he did and he didn’t really know any other life.

    I think you’re right that S6 looks better in hindsight. For me the big issue at the time was that it seemed really unorganized and disjointed, but I think that was largely due to following up the Apocalypse. Gamble was trying to go “back to roots” with more standalones and smaller villains, but it seemed anticlimactic at the time. I also find myself watching S7 clips more and more often on Youtube- there were actually a lot of good moments that I can appreciate now, but I remember thinking that season stunk because I hated the Leviathans and the brothers seemed “off” to me somehow. Like they were more businesslike in that season than they are now, when they’re trying to be businesslike.

    Comment by Jaytee — May 11, 2014 @ 12:40 pm

  210. What? The stupid fighting continues on???

    I’ve decided I hate both seasons 8 and 9! Much as I tried to be optimistic and keep hoping that somehow things will start improving, they just never did. In fact, I’m really disliking what I’ve heard of the next episode, and the spoilers from interviews. Making me a little queesy actually. who in the world cares about Cas amd his retarded angels?!

    Carver and his team of writers seem to be complete morons. He’s taken the FOUNDATION of the show, the most beloved thing about it, it’s heart, it’s soul, it’s reason for it lasting for as long as it has, – and twisted it beyond recognition. Who the heck does that, unless they want to destroy what Supernatural stands for???

    We, the fans who have been loyally watching for the past nine years, deserve more than this. As do J2, as I can’t possibly imagine them being happy with how and where Sam and Dean are IN THEIR OWN FREAKING SHOW!

    So agree with what you all have written JT, San, Sheri, roxi, Lisa. The show is a mess right now, with all the good plot lines being ignored or dropped. All in favor of the stupid angel story and the great leader Cas. What is it about Misha and the powers-that-be in SPN anyway? Why do they love him so much?

    Sorry for the rant, but feeling really angry and disappointed right now. Kripke, please come back!

    Comment by Tammy — May 11, 2014 @ 1:29 pm

  211. Argh . . . just thinking about Andrea and Woodbury makes me mad! She was so mounumentally STUPID in that storyline!

    I hear what you’re saying about being sick of the constant conflict btw Sam and Dean, but I just didn’t see SS that way. I found the whole plot and mystery surrounding Sam very interesting. I was never upset w/the arc or wanted it to end so Sam could return. I just found it entertaining, and I thought Jared did an excellent job w/the soulless stuff. I was a very happy viewer when S6 was airing despite that Lisa/Ben mess. I was also regularly posting on the CW boards (which I loved), and I don’t recall many complaints about SS but then I may have avoided those threads. I spent most of the season complaining about Lisa/Ben. Haha!

    I absolutely adore CYHIYB! That episode was hilarious!! “Nipples” – LOL!!!!

    I read that the kid who played Ben really didn’t want to be on the show. The idea was that Ben was supposed to be like Sam or something, but they phased out a lot of the Ben stuff when they should have just recast him.

    It’s a shame that Carver is locked into the show. I would rather see Kripke return to finish out this show. In Carver’s hands, its unrecognizable.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 11, 2014 @ 1:31 pm

  212. Don’t apologize, Tammy :-)

    That was a good rant! I completely agree w/you!

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 11, 2014 @ 1:34 pm

  213. @Sheri. I also like how he wrote Sam and Dean’s dialogue. Like a moment from 6.22:

    Dean: Alright, this is where we’re gonna be, Sam. You get your lazy ass out of bed and come and meet us. Sammy, please.

    But why would Dean be relegated to cooking if Kripke came back?

    I’d also like to see Edlund back. He wrote 7.02 Hello, Cruel World and in 8.21 The Great Escapist some new canon about Sam’s childhood which seems to be generally accepted (not easy after so many seasons).


    Hi Jaytee, I was wondering if you were around!

    I never warmed up to them. (Part of it was the acting.) Soccer mom just wasn’t the Dean I wanted to see. Even in the reunion scene where he meets Sam, I’m always distracted and annoyed by how they dressed him. :D You are right that ultimately that storyline was a something that was needed because Dean has always been about family and I’d rather have him not pining away for baseball practices with a kid and Lisa. Let him taste the life and then still decide to continue with Sam.

    They tried to make Lisa pretty cool and she didn’t give Dean a hard time when he went back to hunting so there was hat. But the Lisa thing didn’t work for me even during season 5.

    Sam: It’s not too hard to figure out the stops on the Farewell Tour. How’s Lisa doing, anyways? (5.18)

    Excuse me? I thought I knew Dean pretty well and I wasn’t expecting that. So it just didn’t work for me that the big ending to a five season plan was Dean going to Lisa and Ben and agreeing that the best course of action was Sam being tormented forever.

    But I’m glad Dean had Lisa and Sam had Amelia because now that is over and they can just concentrate on other stuff.


    Tammy, what have you heard?!


    @Lisa1: “I read that the kid who played Ben really didn’t want to be on the show. The idea was that Ben was supposed to be like Sam or something, but they phased out a lot of the Ben stuff when they should have just recast him.”

    What??? Okay that says a lot. The whole thing was bad. It would have been way better if they had actually made a bigger deal about Ben being sort of a stand-in for Sammy. Like now Dean gets to take care of someone and show him the ropes. Of course not in a way that would mean Dean was damaging to Ben but something that would bring it back around to the brothers. More of this “Then I think about the way we grew up, I don’t know, I kind of feel like I have a chance to do something different with Ben, you know?” Instead it came off more like Dean now had a new family.

    Comment by San Summer — May 11, 2014 @ 2:02 pm

  214. I have heard several times that Adam Glass in head writer and in charge of the writers’ room. If that is true, and I don’t know that it is, it explains A LOT of what is going on with SPN.

    Comment by Sheri — May 11, 2014 @ 2:14 pm

  215. San, haven’t heard anything new. Was referring to posts 172, 178 and 181 by animal and JT where they talk about things said at the con. I know it’s nothing huge, but is just more of the same ridiculous stuff.

    Comment by Tammy — May 11, 2014 @ 2:23 pm

  216. @215, speaking of the same ridiculous stuff, Tammy, when recently asked what Castiel might do in S10, Collins answered that maybe he’ll become a cross dresser. I guess the over 40 actor is still trying to charm the under 13 crowd.

    Curtis Armstrong had nothing to reveal about Metatron in S10. He said,”it’s really amazing how out of the loop they keep people on this show.” People on this show are probably kept out of the loop because the writers do most of their work riding up the elevator on their way to turn in their scripts.

    Comment by JT — May 11, 2014 @ 3:02 pm

  217. Correction: that’s the “almost” 40 actor. I’m sure three months will bring a radical growth spurt from adolescence to middle age.

    Comment by JT — May 11, 2014 @ 3:18 pm

  218. Yeah . . . I remember Genevieve saying she was specifically instructed to act like Sam’s love interest, and Jared said he didn’t know Sam was supposed to be soulless until he read the script. They don’t seem to give their actors a lot of info about the plot progression.

    Yes, San, the idea was that Dean stayed with Lisa and Ben b/c Ben reminded him of Sam. The connection was supposed to be with Dean and Ben with Ben serving as a Sam substitute, but the Ben stuff had to be cut down due to the actor. I’m not sure what Sera wanted to achieve w/the Ben/Lisa affair. This show just isn’t set up for romance.

    Oh, and I can’t remember who mentioned how silly it was for Sam to mention Lisa in S5, but you were not alone. Over on the forums here and IMDb (I may have still been posting there at that time), we talked endlessly about how OOC it was for Dean to go to Lisa and say some nonsense like, “When I think of being happy, I think of you.” What a silly, nonsensical statement!

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 11, 2014 @ 5:19 pm

  219. @Lisa1. Re: “the idea was that Dean stayed with Lisa and Ben b/c Ben reminded him of Sam. The connection was supposed to be with Dean and Ben with Ben serving as a Sam substitute”.

    That would’ve made SO much more sense! I sort of had my own headcanon about it to make the whole thing work better (Dean loses his little brother and doesn’t have anyone to look after, it makes sense he would get attached to someone when he could play a mentor/big brother/father figure all rolled into one and try to make things right the second time around). I’ll try and squint to see that angle between Dean and Ben so next time I won’t have to fast-forward those parts. Because I didn’t like it one bit that it just seemed like Dean was settling down to an apple pie life with his new and improved family and being a step-father.

    I wonder what the actor’s problem was. Was he homesick or something? I always thought he must have been related to someone on the show because his acting left a lot to be desired.

    Damn, now I’m really starting to whish Colin Ford had played Ben! :D They could’ve had the audience guessing what was going on. Like if Ben is Dean’s biological son, it would make sense he might look like baby Sam but on the other hand maybe Dean is projecting his thoughts about his little brother onto this kid he is taking care of. But that would’ve worked only in an alternative version of the show because that would’ve essentially been a storyline of its own and not really what Supernatural is about.

    In a way it was really a blessing in disguise that Ben was so meh :D Otherwise more focus might have been taken away from what it meant for Dean to get Sam back from the cage.

    Re: “Dean to go to Lisa and say some nonsense like, “When I think of being happy, I think of you.””

    Bwahahahhaha, I’m glad I’ve blocked that out! They just needed a place to store Dean in at the end of season five so off he went to Lisa and Ben.

    Comment by San Summer — May 11, 2014 @ 6:24 pm

  220. @San, hello :). Just haven’t had much to add to the recent discussions here! Yeah, I’ve heard from a number of places that Dean/Lisa didn’t go over well, but I’m glad they wrote it, as Dean needed that experience. Maybe just me, but I’d be side-eyeing him a bit more if he was a 35 year old who’d NEVER been with a woman past a few weeks. I guess to me it would suggest a greater emotional immaturity than he’s supposed to otherwise have. I like it better that he could have had that life, and chose to walk away.

    I also liked that they showed him at least attempting other ways to juggle hunting and family, as that’s always been a bit of an undercurrent for me with Show. We see all these other hunters who have homes or families or who have retired (or even have regular jobs, like Jody), but the brothers seemed convinced (until recently, with the Bunker at least) that they had to be rootless itinerant hunters until they died, just because that’s what John did. So I understand why watching it may have been tedious, but I’m glad they at least had Dean try it and I’m glad they had that exploration of juggling hunting and “normal.”

    I didn’t think Sam and Dean’s references to Lisa were that odd in S5. I guess Sam seeing the “picnic scene” in DALDOM cemented Lisa as Dean’s “back of his head what if person” for both of them, and that scene in PONR was supposed to remind us that despite their recent issues, Sam still knew Dean pretty damn well. There’s mixed opinion about Sam telling Dean to go to Lisa after his sacrifice, but I can see, after PONR, why he thought Dean would want that, and that Sam was concerned about Dean being alone. Dean didn’t seem to think it was a bad or wrong suggestion either (really, deathbed promises aside, Dean didn’t HAVE to go to Lisa if he found the idea that unpalatable).

    Comment by Jaytee — May 11, 2014 @ 6:26 pm

  221. @218, Lisa1, I think that silly line, as well much of Lisa’s staying power, can be traced to the fact that the character was created by Sera Gamble. Writers/producers probably make extra money if their characters survive for several episodes; ego may also be a factor.

    Then there are the two Js. They’ve talked about how they wanted lighter schedules practically since the series began. When JDM decided to leave, Kripke created the Harvelle Road House. Ever since, show runners seem to have struggled to find ways to expand the cast so JP and JA can take more time off. I’ve lost count of the actors who’ve appeared as regular or recurrent characters multiple times only to be killed off when their popularity declines. Collins used all sorts of methods to build and cultivate his own fan base; still, I think Castiel’s main function, like that of other angels, is to serve as filler.

    I strongly suspect that if SN were as well-written and beautifully directed as it was under Kripke and Manners, the Js wouldn’t care as much about having time off. As matters stand, they’re probably willing to stay on as long as the work hours don’t become too burdensome. That’s okay with me. I’d rather see a lot less of Sam and Dean than not to see them at all.

    Comment by JT — May 11, 2014 @ 6:31 pm

  222. @ Lisa1: Yes, that whole thing was total crap and plunked in without any set-up. I hated the whole damned thing…just like I hated Sam’s Amelia thing.

    JT #216: Sh*t. You mean Metatron is still going to be around in S10? No way. They finished filming on Apr 24th, so my fingers are aching from being crossed so hard that the angel thing is over with in the finale and Armstrong just doesn’t want to spoil.

    Comment by Sheri — May 11, 2014 @ 6:52 pm

  223. @JT (221). I do think there’s a bit more to it than that. The brothers have always needed outside people and friends to occasionally help them out or just to bounce off of on occasion. Some of these characters do better than others. For example, Bobby was an occasional walk-on from S1 onwards who did VERY well. I keep hearing the Roadhouse stuff tanked, which is too bad, as I actually really liked all that (except for Jo the Token Blonde). Cas obviously took off, even though I know he’s not popular in these parts :p. It would actually be very difficult to make the show engaging if the brothers really didn’t interact with ANYONE else regularly. Gamble actually took a well, gamble at that in S7, by killing off pretty well everything that wasn’t named Sam or Dean, but S7 isn’t known as an awesome season, and it didn’t seem to do much for the characters.

    I have noticed that, as Lisa1 said, SPN seems to not do romance very well. It just never quite fits. Dean/Lisa went better than Samelia, but even then it obviously wasn’t super well received. A lot of the love interests are written poorly, and sappy romance drama gets in the way of the stuff we really want to see. Like San said above, I hope both boys are now past their “romance” plots and we can move on from that.

    But friends and supporting hunters/characters? Sure, bring back Jody on occasion! If Cas is useful, let him hang out sometimes. Let’s meet Carlos and other hunters. Dean gets tons of character development as he tends to bond with surrounding characters a lot, and I’d like to see more of that for Sam.

    Comment by Jaytee — May 11, 2014 @ 7:05 pm

  224. @220 Jaytee. Yeah, she was his fantasy person and he seems to have an affinity with kids so it makes sense he would want to stay goodbye etc. etc. but to me there was no buildup to such a major thing in season five. Dean essentially going to her before saying yes to Michel because he is so torn up he’ll never have that or something… blaah. I get why Sam pushed the Lisa angle though because Dean wouldn’t have been in any shape to be hunting alone and would have definitely given enough at that point so why not try to have a life for himself since the opportunity was out there.

    Comment by San Summer — May 11, 2014 @ 7:10 pm

  225. @222, Sheri, it sounds like to me, but I may be wrong. The interview is dated May 11–eight hours ago. (If you enter Supernatural, it should appear somewhere down on the page.) Anyway, Armstrong said, “The truth is all I know is what happens in the next two weeks. Any future for the character after that, I have no idea.”

    The thing is, he’s described in the article as having a “huge fan following” and is described as being part of “the Supernatural family.”

    “Huge fan following”???? For Metatron??? Who ARE these people? I don’t get it. I feel like Earth’s been invaded by Martians.

    Comment by JT — May 11, 2014 @ 7:14 pm

  226. “it sounds like IT to me…” I have an excuse for my multiple mistakes this time. METATRON???

    Comment by JT — May 11, 2014 @ 7:17 pm

  227. @223, Jaytee, like you, I enjoy watching the boys to interact with other characters. I loved Bobby and many others who’ve appeared on the show. But the characters I like are interesting, sharply drawn, and fit logically into the series. Above all, they’re played by outstanding actors. What puzzles me is why, with all the immensely talented actors out there who in desperate need of work, SN has to hire some of the dullest, dreariest, most insipid, no-talent performers on the planet.

    From what I gathered, JA was miserable during S6. He was too polite to say so, but I got the impression he was going NUTS acting alone. Not only did he have to play scenes with Soulless Sam and Catatonic Castiel, he had Listless Lisa and Soporific Son to contend with. I didn’t think it was possible for the casting people to find a worse “love interest” for one of the boys than Lisa–that is, until Amelia came along.

    I never saw any posters objecting to characters like Jess, Sarah, or Dean’s Carmen in “What Is and What Should Never Be.” They were all played by good actresses who brought vitality and personality to their roles, which is what accounts for the chemistry between them and the boys.

    You’re right about the dangers of romance plots, Jaytee; still, I’d like to see Sam and Dean fall in love–at least, potentially. As long as the female characters were funny, charming friends of the brothers AND were played by outstanding actresses, I wouldn’t mind a hint that, someday, somewhere down the road, the brothers would have a chance to live happy lives.

    Comment by JT — May 11, 2014 @ 8:23 pm

  228. Please forgive the mistakes! I really have to slow down. Just one more thing, Jaytee. To me, Lisa was entirely wrong for Dean, not only because of the actress who played her, but because he’s no leaf raking house hubby. Dean could never fit comfortably in that life–anymore than Sam could settle for long in the role of contented suburban repairman and salad fixer.

    I’ve got to give it to Carver. He’s clearly established that the Winchesters come from a long line of hunters and Men of Letters who never lived “normal” lives. It wasn’t in their blood or in their stars.

    Comment by JT — May 11, 2014 @ 8:50 pm

  229. @JT. It was so random, too, how first he kisses Jo like he regrets not doing that before and then a few episodes later he is all “I missed out on a life with Lisa and Ben.”

    Comment by San Summer — May 12, 2014 @ 5:56 am

  230. JT – I disagree about Sam. I could have seen him settling down w/the boring Ameila for the rest of his life. He was even looking at colleges (though how he would register since “Sam Winchester” is a known serial killer who is presumably dead is a mystery). I think Sam would be fine in surburban life. I could see the show ending w/him giving up hunting.

    I agree w/you that such a life does not suit Dean though. I couldn’t see him being happy with Lisa/Ben for long. He was itching to get back to hunting when Sam returned. I could see Dean settling down w/a fellow hunter . . . Someone like Tamara, that blind girl whose name is escaping me, or that red head they all slept with. He needs, IMO, to be w/someone who understands the hunting world, someone he won’t have to lie to about hunting.

    Lisa was all awrong for Dean. First, she had some irrational hate for Sam – a man she never actually met. Second, she had no understanding of Dean, the way he was raised, or his life in general. Third, I hated how Dean had to lie in EOMS about what he was doing, and then he had to downplay it drastically. Lisa knew Dean was a hunter when she hooked up w/him, and it was completely unrealistic for her to think he would suddenly stop following his hunter’s instincts.

    I also had huge problems w/the idea that Dean was pining for Lisa – a woman he barely knew – for three years w/no contact. Lisa should have slammed the door in Dean’s face in S5 rather than embracing him. She moved a virtual stranger into her home w/her young, impressionable child! Who does that?

    I’m not a mother but Lisa’s actions re: Dean were foreign to me. I also thought it would have made more sense to show Dean just moving in w/Lisa in EOMS rather than the idea that Dean moved into Lisa’s home the very night he knocked on her door at the end of S5. That made no sense to me.

    As far as I know, JA disliked the Ben/Lisa arc, and JP didn’t care for the Amelia story or the “Sam doesn’t look for Dean” arc. They know their characters better than the writers and knew neither of those arcs made sense for their characters.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 12, 2014 @ 6:24 am

  231. @187
    ‘Despise me all you want’?? God, you really have a very elevated view of your own self-importance, don’t you. I don’t despise you, roxi, you’re not that important.

    Me and a couple of others? Wow, way to summarily round up people and insinuate they’re all they same. Do you understand the concept of individualism at all? Hey, guess what, there are a few people on here who never have anything positive to say about Sam, but you’re not all over those posters like a rash, are you?

    The evidence you’re declaring is absolute proof is subjective. Do you not get that? IT IS SUBJECTIVE!! What you see as definitive proof that Dean has never thought Sam was inferior to him, others might not see it that way. There is plenty of evidence that Dean does think that Sam is inferior to him, both as a hunter, and as a brother. And it has nothing to do with dislike. You might interpret characters actions negatively based on whether or not you like a character but thank heavens, not everyone is like you.

    If you don’t give a shit about who whether or not people hate Dean then why do you constantly attack them when you’ve decided that they do hate him? Not adhering to your standards of what constitutes ‘like’ of a character does not equate to hate.

    And just to let you know roxi, if you decide to attack and throw out slurs again, then I will respond in kind.

    Comment by Sonic — May 12, 2014 @ 6:27 am

  232. @229, San Summer-“random” is the word for it all right! I’m convinced now, as I was then, that Dean pined over missing a life with Lisa and Ben SOLELY because these were Gamble’s creations. The characters were slammed by a majority of viewers–as was SG’s absurd vision of suburbia boy toy, Dean–so Gamble decided to save face and take revenge by making her ridiculous Lisa the “one true love” of Dean’s life!

    One of the things I’ve always hated about SN is the way some of its writers have tried to make themselves the “stars” of this show. They seem to care more about spotlighting themselves and their own (stupid) fantasies than remaining true to Kripke’s concepts and the quality of the show.

    @230, a big YES to all you say about Dean! But I disagree about Sam. I believe he thought he wanted a “normal” life in suburbia with a girl, a dog, a routine job, and plans to become a lawyer. But the fact is, he could have held on to all that; instead, he rejected life with Amelia to go back to hunting.

    It seemed to me the writers consciously removed any obstacle that might convince Sam he had to leave Amelia. Unlike Dean who left Lisa, at least initially, because “Sam” needed him, Dean had no pressing need for his brother. In fact, though he also wanted to keep Sam from killing Benny, Dean “sent” Sam back to Amelia with that phone message. The scene in the bar told viewers that Amelia’s husband would not be an obstacle between Sam and Amelia (that doesn’t speak very well of HER!), and she was ready and waiting at the motel at the appointed time. Even her father who, at first, seemed like he objected to his daughter’s boyfriend, turned out to be completely accepting of Sam.

    In short, the show made it clear that the only thing keeping Sam from the happy life he imagined he’d have with Amelia was Sam himself. Deep down, he didn’t want that kind of happiness, anymore than Dean did.

    And why the heck would they? WHAT??? Trade lives of adventure, mystery, heroic action, and the excitement of the open road for walking the dog and trips to the Cheesecake Factory? Sam and Dean just needed to find out that the “normal” life they pined for isn’t all it’s cracked up to be, at least not for them.

    Comment by JT — May 12, 2014 @ 7:47 am

  233. @232 That action and adventure has also brought misery, heartache, pain, death and destruction upon them. Both Sam and Dean have shown a desire to get out of hunting, and from early on in the seasons. They’ve always been dragged back in by one thing or another. I think the normal life for them could be all they thought it was were it not for those outside factors. Dean couldn’t enjoy normal life the last time because of Sam being in the Cage. Sam believed Dean was dead and at peace so he was able to adjust better. There’s no reason to think that if they both agreed to get out of hunting, and stop needlessly chasing danger, they’d be perfectly happy with that.

    Comment by Orlaith — May 12, 2014 @ 8:14 am

  234. @232 JT. And there was something incredibly awkward about the following line in 8.10:

    Sam: She does make me happy, and she could be waiting for me if I went back. I’d be a very lucky man if she was. But now… with everything staring down at us, with all that’s left to be done… I don’t know.

    I think it was important to show that what Amelia and Sam had wasn’t really about the sizzle etc. I think they felt affection towards each other and it could have grown into lasting love but I think Sam would have been settling if he had stayed with her.

    I could’ve maybe gotten behind Sarah and Sam getting together because she was there during season 1 and they could’ve worked the angle of how Sam hadn’t been ready, the timing hadn’t been right etc. She at least would know about hunting and didn’t have a problem with that. Quite the contrary.

    Sarah: He works search and rescue. Guess I have a type. (8.22)

    But my preferred ending is Sam and Dean together in life or death. If they died, in a way it might feel incredibly unfair but then on the other hand they would be together and I think they have always been the happiest that way. Otherwise Sam would have gone back to school or Amelia and Dean would have settled down with someone or chose to hunt with Cas, Benny or whomever.

    Comment by San Summer — May 12, 2014 @ 8:23 am

  235. @231- First off, screw you.
    Second, I never thought I was that important at all. By the way, neither are YOU.
    Yet you have no problem stating your” subjective” opinion as if it was fact, which tells me you have an overinflated view of your own importance hypocrite.
    My main problem with you right now is your lies.
    Anybody who reads anything I ever write knows full well that although I hated the way it seemed to ME that Sam treated Dean last year, and my frustration that Sam has always gotten all the importance while Dean has been thrown to the sidekick role, I have NEVER hated Sam, called him an asshole, or had only negative things to say about him.(like you do at all times about Dean,THAT’S why it seems to me you hate him, jerk) Just this season I’ve stated that he does love Dean, is smart, want him to have more of a story this season, deserves his revenge on Gadreel, etc. So your claim that me having anything good to say about Sam being hard to find is a lie.
    Just like your claim that I excuse everything Dean does wrong, which is REALLY a big fucking lie! I have NEVER, not once, excused any wrong shit Dean has ever done, and right here I’ve even been in debate with other Dean fans about actions and personality flaws, and I’ve called him an asshole more times than I can remember.
    So I don’t give a shit what you think of me, because despite your stupid ass claim, I DON’T, nor have I EVER thought I was important. If you want to attack me, fine, you don’t matter at all to me,but your lies I won’t put up with.
    So go screw yourself and have a nice day.

    Comment by roxi — May 12, 2014 @ 9:09 am

  236. @235 Then why do you claim I despise you? I don’t, I don’t give give a crap about you. I do dislike your tendency to jump all over people who you decide hate Dean. You also jumped all over anyone who defended Sam last year. There’s plenty of evidence in the threads.

    I’ve said one thing about Dean on this thread. That’s not exactly ‘all the time’.

    I also said that when you criticise Dean (for want of a better word), it’s tempered by a big pity party for him.

    Saying Sam loves Dean is your definition of a good thing to say about him? I would have thought there wasn’t any doubt about that. Does that mean when you thought Sam didn’t love Dean then you were hating on him?

    Replying to you is not attacking you. Calling someone a ‘hypocrite’ and ‘pathetic and immature’ is.

    Comment by Sonic — May 12, 2014 @ 9:31 am

  237. JT – If the show concluded w/Sam giving up hunting, finding some woman and settling down, I would not find that OOC for Sam. Would you? Sam has left the life behind several times, and has always been pulled back for some reason. He left Amelia b/c her husband returned. He came to the cabin b/c he was aimless and didn’t know where else to go. I doubt Carver’s Sam would have resumed hunting if Dean hadn’t appeared. He probably would have finished school and got a job or something.

    As San and Oralith pointed out, Sam has wanted out of hunting since he was a tween. I thought he had committed to hunting in S6, but Carver came along and reset him to S1 settings so I don’t think hunting is Sam’s ideal life, and if the (horrible IMO) BB is anything to go by, Dean doesn’t want to hunt either. Under the right circumstances, Dean could leave the life too though I think that would be a harder sell for the audience. Dean was out of the life in S6, and he chose to come back. Dean has hunting in his blood (or at least that’s how he was presented prior to the OOC BB).

    Simply put, under Carver’s reign, I could see both brothers giving up the life at the end of the series though such an ending wouldn’t be true to Dean, IMO.

    My ideal ending is the boys slamming the trunk, and Dean saying, “They have work to do.” That would bring the show full circle. What I think will happen is Sam will die saving Dean, and Dean will leave the life and settle down. That’s assuming Carver remains in charge.

    Comment by Lisa1 — May 12, 2014 @ 9:32 am

  238. @236-0H for Heaven’s sake, I have had more good things to say about Sam than just that he loves Dean! I have also stated that season 8 Sam WASN’T Sam, sided WITH SAM on the possession issue,took Sam’s side in the Amy situation, there’s a lot more.
    And again,you are hypothetically putting my criticisms of Dean in parenthesis! I have NEVER given him a pity party! I have NEVER qualified any of the bad shit he has done!I have had so many complaints about him and some of his behavior, that I have NEVER given any excuse for, and never will! THIS is what I mean by you lying!
    Ok, maybe your right, maybe it does rile me up a little when you guys hate on Dean so much,and maybe I shouldn’t care, but my God, how would you like it if your favorite, Sam obviously, was ALWAYS, always run into the ground the way you guys do Dean,NEVER, EVER seeing one positive thing about him?And I no,I haven’t seen anything positive about Dean from you guys, not once, it’s ALWAYS the negative in every situation. One person here admits that Dean loves Sam, then turns it into a negative by saying Dean shows his love by keeping Sam on a noose and controlling him. How is that a positive view on Dean?
    And maybe I’m too sensitive, but your accusations that I think I’m important in any way, that really bothers me, because it’s so very untrue.

    Comment by roxi — May 12, 2014 @ 10:21 am

  239. If they want to end the show with Sam alive and content, I think the Men of Letters would be the key to that. I don’t think there is going back to a completely normal life. Something would always pull him back. I don’t think he was fully living his life when he was with Amelia. Men of Letters would offer him the chance to help other hunters and help people from supernatural evil and it would also offer him intellectual challenges. I think a happy ending for Sam could also be the open road with his brother. It’s just a matter of writing. Now he feels resigned but at the same time it hasn’t always been like that. (Even early this season.)

    Comment by San Summer — May 12, 2014 @ 10:37 am

  240. @238 Jesus Roxi, nobody bloody hates Dean. If they hated Dean there wouldn’t be much point watching the show. because the whole damn story is told from his point of view. Sam does something understandable, Dean doesn’t like it or Dean doesn’t get it, Sam is the one who is tarred and feathered. That has been the show since season 4.

    Season 8 Sam was Sam. You don’t have to like him, you don’t have to understand him but you can’t say that it wasn’t Sam. It’s Sam with the same mentality that he has now ie stop going against the natural order because it will only muck things up more and there will be greater consequences to pay. Last season Sam was a Sam who had learned from previous mistakes.

    There is more than one poster on this site who runs Sam into to the ground every chance they get. I ignore them.

    In relation to the ‘noose’ comment, it’s quite apt. Dean wants Sam hunting with him. He’s said this on more than one occasion. When Sam says he wants out, or says he doesn’t see the bunker as home or whatnot, Dean takes it a personal offense. Many people on here say Sam doesn’t love Dean because he doesn’t do that to Dean. It can’t go both ways.

    I’m sorry that the statement bothers you but don’t say things like ‘You can despise me all you want’ etc because that is what that sort of statement suggests. To despise someone means you have to feel strongly about them.

    Do I believe that Dean thinks Sam is inferior to him? Yes I do. That’s not a crime. I think he believes he is lesser as a hunter and lesser as a brother, because Sam won’t do the same things that he (Dean) does.

    Comment by Sonic — May 12, 2014 @ 10:51 am

  241. Orlaith and Lisa1, you both make great points, but I agree with San Summer. I don’t think Sam WAS living a full life when he was with Amelia. On the contrary, he didn’t act like Sam at all to me. How could Sam walk away without looking for Dean? Or let Kevin be abducted by Crowley and not even answer the kid’s calls? In fact, the Sam I know would never blissful ignore newspaper articles about deaths he knew were caused by the supernatural.

    I think Carver created that totally OOC Sam with the intention of later revealing what the real Sam was doing before he hit a dog and met the vet. My guess is that, for some reason, Carver decided against telling the Sam story he originally planned. (SOMEBODY was icing those Leviathans who were dropping into purgatory.)

    Anyway, the only way I can see the Winchesters settling down in rose covered cottages would be if they were too old or too hurt to hunt–or if, somehow, all the nasty angels, demons, and monsters left the planet. The boys are simply too conscientious not to be concerned about all the people they could save by staying in the life. That’s why Carver’s concept of Sam was so OOC to me. If Dean were killed on the job, Sam would be more determined than ever to hunt down every supernatural SOB he could find. As I see it, Carver was right about Sam in “Mystery Spot,” but dead wrong in 9.1.

    And one more thing. A healthy relationship requires honesty. Are we actually supposed to believe that Sam was honest with Amelia about his past? “Uh….well, a demon who gave me its blood burned my mom on the ceiling and tried to make me his Grand Poobah, but I died and my brother sold his soul to bring me back, just like our dad did. As a matter of fact, I also went to hell when I let Lucifer use me as his vessel, but I came back to life soulless and killed a lot of people–at least my body did–until….” I’d give Amelia maybe fifteen, twenty seconds before calling for the men in the white coats.

    Comment by JT — May 12, 2014 @ 12:14 pm

  242. uh…that’s “blissfully.” If only a gong would go off or something. Another one more thing, though. Like San Summer, when and if the show ends, I want to see the boys drive off into the sunset. After all, there are movies to be made!

    Comment by JT — May 12, 2014 @ 12:18 pm

  243. Sonic, none of my business here. but I think Dean believes Sam is inferior to him as a hunter, while Sam believes Dean is inferior to him as a Man of Letters. Will that work?

    Comment by JT — May 12, 2014 @ 12:21 pm

  244. @241. Wasn’t that ‘kill every supernatural SOB’ after Dean died (both in ‘Mystery Spot and when he went to hell) what set Sam on the slippery slope in the first place?? I think Sam is wary of that happening again and so will not let that happen again. He learns from his mistakes. If Dean dies and Sam doesn’t try to bring him back ir exact revenge etc then the sacrifice is Sam’s, and I think Sam would be okay with that, especially if he knew Dean was in heaven.

    Add to that, at this stage you could argue that Sam and Dean are doing more harm then good in their endeavours. They save one life, then through some monumental cock up end up costing lives. If Sam and Dean could only stick to the small MOTW hunts then okay, but they’ve gotten too big to do that now.

    I agree about Amelia. Despite the fact that I did like her I saw her as someone Sam hung onto in order to survive, and vice versa. They both had suffered terrible losses so I think they needed someone to help them keep their heads above water, someone who knew what the other was going through. I never saw them as a great passionate love, but more of a comfort to each other. Because they were bothngoing through the same thing they could accept each other easier. They might have stayed together in the long run because we all need companionship, but Indont see them as a hugely passionate , can’t survive without you, swinging from the chandeliers type love etc etc. Sam’s hugely passionate loves have usually ended in death, so he might be fearful of that happening again.

    I’m not keen on a Sam and Dean ride into the sunset ending. That’s a bit too cookie cutter for me. I think a brother has to die. I’d rather it be Sam who gives his life for Dean (I’m still hoping on the cure a demon one but that seems unlikely) because I think it’s almost expected. It will also close the eternal circle of sacrifice within the Winchester family off nicely.

    Comment by Sean — May 12, 2014 @ 12:50 pm

  245. It was weird when I first heard about Sam not looking for Dean. The whole story was handled badly. Sam is such a goal oriented person and wants to find out answers that it seems a bit odd he would come to the conclusion that Dean was lost. Maybe it could’ve worked better if they had taken more care in showing the implosion part and how Sam can’t go on the same road he has been before. Everyone has a breaking point and it’s actually crazy how much Sam has gone through.

    Comment by San Summer — May 12, 2014 @ 1:18 pm

  246. I think if there’s one thing that is obvious and inherent about Supernatural, it’s that the brothers need to be together. However the show ends, in whatever state of existence Sam and Dean are at the end of it (it is Supernatural after all) they certainly need to be together.

    In a show in which dying has now been overdone, I personally think they should be alive and kicking evil’s butt old-style – the characters as we first fell in love with them, with some kind of slight twist to make it even more interesting. Whatever the slight twist is, it should be completely unexpected, not something the viewers can see coming. But it should still make perfect sense. (I don’t ask for much, do I?)

    The show’s ending should be exciting and hopeful, maybe with hint of the possibility of more to come (two hour movie or something) if there is a demand and if it works out. (:

    Comment by Gerrie — May 12, 2014 @ 1:32 pm

  247. I agree, San Summer, it’s really crazy how much Sam has gone through. How much Dean has gone through as well. I wish the writing would be more intelligent in that regard.
    The boys, both now over thirty I think, would be less teenage-pissy with each other. They should still have the snark and the banter and all that brotherly stuff. (I have brothers. That never goes away… and it’s great.) But they would, by all reasonable accounts, be keenly aware of the pain and the anguish of the other one, and they would each be the one most sympathetic, by far, to where the other one is coming from… even if they don’t always agree.
    I think that, knowing the brothers from previous seasons, that is actually the truth… that IS who they are… but the writing does not do it justice to say the least. That’s a big problem.

    Comment by Gerrie — May 12, 2014 @ 1:42 pm

  248. Okay, I’m only saying this only because it’s come up again, the ‘Sam not looking for Dean’ thing… As I’ve said before, I’m just a tiny bit hopeful again (it was rekindled by the general path that he’s taken, and where it’s leading) that it was actually all planned as such by Carver, and there’s going to be some explanation at some point.

    My dream acenarip for that would be that they actually have film scenes they shot then, but will show when relevant. Of Sam beng completely broken up or an explanation for the whole mess.

    Dreamer me…

    Personally I don’t think they’re going to end with one or both leaving hunting. I really can’t see it anymore. For either, honestly. The worst would be, for me, one of them dying, and the other left to carry on. I see either a hunting/man of letters combination ending for the two at the bunker, with Dean still hunting full time, and Sam partly, kind of like a man of letters Bobby. But for me, the best would be, at the last, something happens and they have to sacrifice/blow up the bunker. And then, slamming the trunk of the impala with the “we’ve got work to do” bit. As Lisa said.

    Comment by Tammy — May 12, 2014 @ 1:45 pm

  249. *Scenario, not acenarip or whatever that came out as. Oops,

    Comment by Tammy — May 12, 2014 @ 1:48 pm

  250. To me the saddest ending would be one of them dying and the other one staying behind. I feel like in that scenario the one dying would have to be Sam. But at the same time it would probably seem terribly unfair, like he had always been destined to die young.

    To be clear, I think it was very dubious of Dean to let Sam be possessed in 9.01 but at the same time I understand why he did it — especially after what happened in the church. Getting another person possessed without their consent is wrong, there is no doubt about that. In this case I see the situation as problematic more because of the lying that spoke about Dean’s issues (not trusting Sam to make his own choice even after the dust had settled) and later acting like Sam was wrong to object to how things went.

    I understand why Sam was ready and willing to go. He has done good in his life. The doctor was suggesting to Dean they’d turn down life support. Sam would never want to come back at a cost or if it could hurt people. If the situation were reversed at the end of season 7, Sam wouldn’t have held it against Dean if he had gone back to Lisa and Ben.

    But I didn’t expect Dean to let Sam go. Sam wanted to live. There is more to Sam’s life than that.

    Comment by San Summer — May 12, 2014 @ 2:30 pm

  251. @241 JT. I also don’t see Amelia reacting well to that. :D She might be like Cassie and want to reject the supernatural altogether but even if she could handle that part, Sam’s history with darkness is _really_ dark as you have outlined. I mean his own father thought Sam might have to be killed and even for Dean it was difficult to come to terms with the side of Sam that drank demon blood etc.

    @247 Gerrie. I definitely have big question marks about Dean taking the initiative to list sins that Sam could confess to. Where was all that coming from? Also he demonstrated a pretty insensitive attitude about how Sam’s relationships with women have ended up.

    As far as the fighting this season, I think it wouldn’t have been as bad if it weren’t for the mark of Cain which seems to have altered Dean’s perception on things especially starting from 9.13. They would have had big difference of opinions regardless but Dean seemed much more aware of how he went about things before taking the mark.

    Comment by San Summer — May 12, 2014 @ 2:49 pm

  252. @Lisa1. There have been a few suggestions through the series that Dean, at heart, is at least ambiguous about hunting. Even in Season 2, he was discouraging Jo from getting into it, and in WIAWSNB, he really confronted the personal costs he and Sam faced as a result of hunting. Every time they meet kids or young adults who hunt, he tends to feel bad for them and say things suggesting that they’re throwing their lives away on hunting. In ASS, Dean was shown acknowledging for the first time really that hey, some aspects of their lives kinda sucked. In S5, he was openly burnt out and wanting a “normal” life (the whole Lisa business). S6 had him getting restless, but still initially resistant to getting back into hunting. The end of the season had him genuinely upset about closing off that avenue with Lisa and Ben. BB seemed to be more in the same vein.

    My own fankwankery is that Dean, like Sam, has always been a bit ambiguous about hunting, but unlike Sam, never really let himself think of a different life, for a variety of reasons. He didn’t want to let John down, hunting is all he really knows, there’s that bit of darkness inside him that just likes killing, he can’t shake off the sense of responsibility for saving people from the baddies, etc. In short, he sees himself as a hunter, but doesn’t necessarily see that as a good thing.

    As for Sam, I’m actually glad in hindsight he wasn’t hunting while Dean was in Purgatory (which is not the same as saying I’m glad he didn’t follow up on Kevin, and this is assuming he truly believed Dean was dead), because the more I think about it, the more it would have struck me as either really bloodthirsty (MS) or passively suicidal (IKWYDLS) to have Sam just chasing monsters for a year and otherwise completely alone. I’m hoping he’s FINALLY over his own ambiguity at this point. I’m hoping his leaving Amelia, choosing to hunt again, then “choosing” Dean, has some more significance in the future.

    As for an ideal end? TBH, unless the series goes on, like another 5 years without them dying, I’m not sure I can handle the “We got work to do” ending. I’d keep thinking one of them got killed in a vampire hunt or something a week after the series ended. I think my two ideals would be either a MOL ending (“We got archiving to do”) or both of them dying, esp. if it’s confirmed that they do share Heaven.

    Comment by Jaytee — May 12, 2014 @ 3:11 pm

  253. @Jaytee. I feel like it had to be all or nothing. If Sam was up to rescuing Kevin then the whole fixing up the Impala and running away, his world imploding because he lost his brother wouldn’t really hold water.

    Speaking of the brothers dying, I think one moment from season 6 episode You Can’t Handle the Truth was gorgeously shot (especially in higher quality) and I hope they had lingered more on it and used it for some big episode:


    Comment by San Summer — May 12, 2014 @ 4:32 pm

  254. @240- You claim I make excuses for and give Dean the benefit of the doubt for any of his bad behavior, which I DON’T do, yet you turn right around and do that exact thing for any of Sam’s behavior. You will surely give understanding for anything questionable Sam says or does, but never any for Dean, no matter what.
    Well fine, whatever. I will hold to my opinion that I find it unbelievable that anybody could watch SPN for so long and still come to the conclusion that Dean ever believed Sam to be inferior to him in any way, or that he deliberately sets out to hurt him. To me that just flies in the face of what the show has always been about and everything I’ve ever seen depicted, but fine, believe whatever you want.

    Comment by roxi — May 12, 2014 @ 4:59 pm

  255. Oh I agree San. It wouldn’t have quite made sense with the “implosion” and such.

    Yeah, I can see an ending like that…then Heaven, and the two of them getting into the Impala and driving off :).

    More and more I’ve been toying around with the “Sent Abel to Heaven” bit. That theoretically for Dean, “sending Sam to Heaven” (or letting Sam die) is the ultimate means of protecting him. If Sam’s in Heaven, he’s safe and happy and nothing can hurt him anymore, right? Of course, that takes him away from Dean, which is rather the crux of the matter right now. And while we of course haven’t heard Sam say anything like this, I do wonder if part of his “Sam circumstances I wouldn’t” is the conviction that if Dean dies, and is in Heaven and happy and at peace, Sam would feel “selfish” for taking him away from that to hunt more crap on Earth?

    I’ve actually heard of this idea before in theological debates- since many Christians believe that children younger than a certain age are pretty well guaranteed to go to Heaven if they die, an ultimate act of love and sacrifice for a parent would be to kill their own children, ensuring their own eternal salvation, while ensuring their own eternal damnation (“for them”)?

    Comment by Jaytee — May 12, 2014 @ 6:07 pm

  256. Sorry, I should amend that the Heaven stuff is “theoretical” for Dean. Obviously he doesn’t actually think this, but it’s more taking his “protect Sammy!” to its logical conclusion.

    Comment by Jaytee — May 12, 2014 @ 6:09 pm

  257. Really interesting discussion here, but you know what’s really sad? With only two entries to go, we have no thorny mysteries to unravel, no major character puzzles to solve, no dreadful scenarios to discuss.

    Worse, what happened to the deep emotional investment we’re supposed to have in the last two episodes of a season? I, for one, don’t give a flying leap about the angel war and even less about what happens to Castiel, Metatron, and Gadreel. Will we worry about whether Kevin and the other human spirits will get to heaven? Or be afraid that Abaddon’s army of soulless humans is soon to attack? Not likely. Having lost his teeth as villain, Crowley the addict is no longer addictive to me. And, as for the brothers, I’m having a hard time relating to them because they relate so little to one another. Dean will probably go nuts, but since we’ve known that for much of the season, and Sammy’s not much worried even at this late date, why should I be?

    Carver’s broken the cardinal rule for keeping the audience emotionally invested and, thus, building up suspense for the finale: he and his writers have shut the audience out. Dean’s short-term drinking aside, we haven’t been privy to any internal conflict he might be undergoing against the MOC, so we’re forced to assume he’s not in conflict at all. This distances us from the character and withdraws our sympathy. He becomes a thing, rather than a frightened, vulnerable, flesh and blood person with whom we can identify.

    But what if Carver doesn’t want to indicate that Dean’s undergoing an emotional upheaval? What if, instead, the aim is for the MOC/Blade to turn the Winchester into a cold-blooded, unfeeling, sociopathic killer who hacks beings to death like a butcher hacks beef? I don’t think viewers could become emotionally invested in such a character–unless we were to see the true Dean struggling against the sociopath created by the MOC.

    Carver hasn’t shown us this. Instead he’s turned Dean into Soulless Sam on steroids. I never felt anything for Soulless Sam, and I’m not feeling a thing for his brother. Maybe that will change tomorrow night. I hope so.

    Comment by JT — May 12, 2014 @ 8:46 pm

  258. Here’s the thing: We know the blade is doing SOMETHING to Dean, but we have no idea what. When we met Cain, he really didn’t seem all that monstrous, of course, this was centuries after falling in love with Colette, swearing off murder, and deliberately cutting off all contact with all other beings. But the assumption is that long before all that took place, the mark and the blade did at some point turn him into something evil, enough so that he became a powerful demon.
    What I’d really like to see, and what would greatly be helpful to the viewer, would be for Sam, who is more likely to want to investigate things over all, that’s part of his personality,
    I’d like to see him track down Cain himself to get it straight from him just what is happening to Dean, and what, if anything, he may be able to do to stop it. I know though, that this is expecting too much from Carver and Co.

    Comment by roxi — May 13, 2014 @ 4:21 am

  259. @ Gerrue #247: During S8, I thought perhaps Carver was taking the two Winchesters and changing them into the characters he thought they were or should be. I no longer think that. I think it’s become pretty obvious that neither Carver, and not one of the writers under him, know or understand who these characters are.

    The problems S8 and S9 have had, I think, all goes back to the story (and I’m not saying ‘plot,’ because I actually think it is each story of the week) is driving the characters and in every single episode, they act according to how the story needs them to act. There is a huge, huge failure in the writers room, because every writer, especially at the network level, knows that the characters should drive the story.

    Seriously, who in their right mind would show Purgatory Dean for two episodes, and then stick that character in a kitchen and left giving mentoring speeches to support characters. Who in their right mind would have Sam off living with that ill-conceived Amelia with a partial sentence, “I imploded and…”. There was nothing appealing about Amelia that the audience could identify with, so everyone was left wondering what Sam saw in her that would cause him to want her over Dean after Dean came back…let alone in the first place.

    The writers are violating the number one rule of writing, and by doing so, they have lost control of every aspect of telling a compelling story.

    Comment by Sheri — May 13, 2014 @ 5:55 am

  260. @259- But Carver HAD to have understood the characters, being that he was one of the early writers, and wrote gems like”Mystery Spot”. So he has to be deliberately trying to change the show and the characters, for what reason, I can’t fathom. I guess he thinks it growth of some sort for the series, but I think he’s destroying it.

    Comment by roxi — May 13, 2014 @ 6:24 am

  261. @ roxi: I think Kripke kept Carver in line. He was known for being militant about every detail of SPN and reviewed, approved, and made changes to scripts.

    While I think Carver IS a good writer, if he were interested in this show or the characters, we would not be having the seriously major problems with the writers room.

    Comment by Sheri — May 13, 2014 @ 6:59 am

  262. @258 roxi, too bad Carver doesn’t have you in that Writers Room. Instead of wasting everybody’s time with that pointless episode about Abaddon’s soul stealing, Sam could have shown some natural brotherly concern by investigating the MOC, just as you say. Sam could have gotten some insights from Crowley or maybe from the records of the Men of Letters. Even if Carver didn’t want to bring Cain back just yet, at least he could have established “the dreadful alternative”–in this case, the terrible thing that will happen to Dean and others if he isn’t stopped from using the Blade.

    As audience, we have to have a clear idea of the outcome if that green stuff in the bottle is poured into the city’s water supply. Otherwise, we’re not going to feel a strong sense of impending doom. I assume the reason why Sam hasn’t investigated the Blade is because Carver didn’t want him to stop Dean from using it until Sam actually saw the terrible affects in the finale. But the cost of this approach is too high: not only does it eliminate suspense, it makes Sam into a witless dork or, at worst, a cold, unfeeling brother who cares more about using Dean than keeping him safe.

    @261 Sheri, I think you’re absolutely right about the way Kripke kept Carver in line. I think he also kept Gamble and others on a short leash–at least until he became discouraged and began withdrawing from the show. Kripke was a great showrunner, but I sensed he needed encouragement from an extremely capable person like Kim Manners–a genius who understood, shared, and contributed to EK’s vision for the series and its characters. When Kim died, Kripke lost confidence, and the wolf pack moved in.

    Comment by JT — May 13, 2014 @ 8:04 am

  263. @ JT #262: Probably not ‘encouragement,’ but ‘guidance.’ EK is so flaky and scattered, Kim was obviously the one who held the entire show together and gave it focus.

    Of course, EK was also working with top-notch writers; not hopes-to-be-someday like these.

    Comment by Sheri — May 13, 2014 @ 10:08 am

  264. @259 Sheri, I completely agree with your opinion of the story of the week driving the characters, instead of the other way around as it should be. After 9 years invested in watching the show and the characters, it’s terrible to see them being shunted this way and that, including being made to behave like PMSing teenagers, just because the story demands it of them.

    Awful way to control the show.

    Comment by Tammy — May 13, 2014 @ 10:29 am

  265. @ Tammy: It is an awful way to run a show and to write; not just a season, but each individual script. Every single one of these writers have the characters (and not just the Winchesters) service the story they dreamed up with each episode. I’m convinced Cas hasn’t been a viable character since his S4 story ended. He becomes a part of whatever story a writer is dreaming up and acts however he is required to act. That’s one of my problems with Cas still in the show…he is not a viable, developed character in his own right and, because of that, his alone scenes and separate stories don’t work for me.

    Comment by Sheri — May 13, 2014 @ 1:47 pm

  266. Edlund twitter:

    ben_edlund ‏@ben_edlund · 46m
    appreciate calls to return from SPN fans. show looms large and beloved in my life as do you all but I’m on another path at present :)

    Comment by Sheri — May 13, 2014 @ 4:03 pm

  267. @Sheri- Edlund also apologized in that same tweet about the Grand Canyon screw up. He said it was on him that he screwed up the canon.

    Comment by animal — May 13, 2014 @ 4:17 pm

  268. @262-It’s not so we can see Sam showing brotherly concern, because we’re already seeing that, and to me, Sam is so much more like SAM this season, despite the” we can be brothers or partners” thing then he was all of last season. It’s pretty clear to me he stills loves and is concerned about Dean.
    But strictly from a story telling point of view, the angle of having Sam track down and question Cain is what makes the most sense to me, and would be far more interesting than the current crap. It also would bring Sam more fully into the MOC arc in an integral way, because despite what anyone might believe, I DO want Sam to have an important part of that story alongside Dean. In fact, I think that a now fully human and strong Sam researching,gathering info, and fighting whatever evil forces he must fight in order to find a way to rid Dean of the mark and bringing him back from the brink of being too far gone would be a great arc for Sam in the first half of season 10.

    Comment by roxi — May 13, 2014 @ 4:41 pm

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