“LOTUS” Discussion

Post your thoughts on the winter finale, where the President makes a deal with the Devil. Click HERE for my full recap or keep reading for my quick thoughts.

Well, this is a different kind of mid-season cliffhanger. Sure we have a nephilim and an exorcism egg, but Sam and Dean getting arrested is a very un-monster-y thing for the show.


I really enjoyed President Lucifer and the idea of him having a baby poses an interesting problem down the road. Kelly running away to protect her evil spawn could lead to some interesting mythology later in the season.


More importantly, we finally got to meet Mr. Ketch and he’s kind of awesome. Sam and Dean certainly seemed impressed with his technology and he’s a much better representative for the British Men of Letters. I expect him to become a big part of the second half of the season, especially since that organization is probably going to aide in getting Sam and Dean out of prison.


Speaking of which, that’s an odd ending and cliffhanger. Fighting monsters is one thing, but escaping from the federal government isn’t exactly something they learned from dad’s journal. Is there a special branch of the government that deals with demon hunting? I’m excited to find out.

News posted on December 8, 2016 Comments (79)


  1. Well, there is only ONE good thing about this episode: I applaud the writers for NOT making any references to Trump. It would have been so easy for them to make a connection, but happily they didn’t.

    That aside, what an AWFUL episode!!!

    Honestly, these writers are LAZY and UNCREATIVE. Plus, Jensen and Jared have “checked out” of the show. Clearly, everyone is just in it for the money now.

    I’ll reserve judgment on Mr. Ketch, but admittedly he’s a hottie.

    Comment by JJA — December 8, 2016 @ 7:33 pm

  2. That was one of the worst SPN episodes ever. I didn’t recognize these characters, Dean, Sam, Castiel, Crowley and Rowena were all written dumb and out of character. The episode was just plain dumb, the characters were completely dumbed down. It was also more talk than anything else. It was very slow.

    What kind of cliffhanger was that? The show better tell me that the Winchesters got caught on purpose and that they have a good reason for it, because otherwise it makes no sense, why did they stick around? why didn’t one of the others help them? There weren’t many customers in the diner, and yet the girl escapes past Castiel, who isn’t paying any attention.

    Sam calling the British Men of Letters makes no sense, especially doing it without discussing it with TFW. Keeping secrets never works out well. That looks like the case here too, because it don’t look like Lucifer was actually captured with the egg-thing.

    This episode was just a hot mess.

    Comment by Casey — December 8, 2016 @ 7:36 pm

  3. @Casey – I was just coming to remark how utterly stupid it was of Sam and Dean to hang around a knocked out POTUS with secret service right outside the room. That had to be the DUMBEST thing I have ever seen Sam and Dean do.

    Comment by Lisa1 — December 8, 2016 @ 7:58 pm

  4. I am convinced that the writer’s room is full of priests, pastors and ministers. They simply can’t let go of the angels/demons theme, so I have no idea where the show is going.

    If someone can clear this up for me, did the devil escape through the air vent and not go into that egg-thing the BMOL gave the bros? I think the writers write to keep all of the minor characters relevant rather than writing the episodes based on the history of the show.

    Comment by Jayday — December 8, 2016 @ 8:26 pm

  5. I found the episode lacking something…but I could not put my finger on it except it was anti-climatic ..Question what happen to the demon exorcism egg? of course if Sam put it in his pocket it will be obvious the secret service men would have taken it. Did Crowley believe Sam or Den would use it against him???because he acted very strange , when he quietly backed away and quietly took his mother without saying a word he just looked strange and vanished.
    so when SPN return they will be gone 6 months according to Cas , when he tells a worried Mary (sorry Mary does nothing, I mean nothing for the show or my interest.. I am thinking that since the President told his security to keep it on the down load. That’s why they are isolated ( they probably where the president on Scandal put Olivia mother under the White House. I am thinking Cas and Crowley has to convince the President to let Sam and Dean go.(I can see that)

    Comment by Crowleylove — December 9, 2016 @ 5:27 am

  6. Also I think Crowley needs to steal and bury that exorcism egg in lava somewhere

    Comment by Crowleylove — December 9, 2016 @ 5:30 am

  7. So, yesterday I posted in the other thread that I was afraid last night’s episode was “going to be offensive and cringe-worthy”. I was sort of right – it was offensive and cringe-worthy…but for completely different reasons. The episode wasn’t offensive and cringe-worthy because of religious and/or political reasons, it was offensive and cringe-worthy because it was so STUPID and the characters were stupid.

    Besides some of the other examples of stupidity and WTFness (yes, that’s a word, especially when describing an SPN episode. LOL) already mentioned above, the scene about warding the bunker was odd. Sam has a problem with letting Crowley in? They’ve been working with Crowley for years and he’s actually helped them out a lot in the past 2 seasons, but now Sam has an issue with it? Also, Crowley has been in the bunker many times, but now they have to “lower” the wards to let him in? That makes no sense.

    Poor Jensen. He had to leave Austin and his little girl and pregnant with twins wife to film this episode. Dean wasn’t even needed, yes, he drove everyone around and he got the British MoL guy to let them use the “weapon”, but I’m not sure Jensen even had 1 full page of dialogue for the entire episode. He could have just stayed home with his family.

    So, not only do we have the Lucifer storyline that won’t end, we now have Satan’s Spawn? Ugh. The SPN writers do know there’s already a show on TV that’s all about Lucifer, right?

    I can’t believe the “cliffhanger” they left us with, it was just so…I keep coming back to the same word…”stupid”. Why did the Winchesters just stay in the room? If Castiel can erase people’s memories, why didn’t he stay to do that to the Secret Service guys sitting in the car or when they came into the room? Why couldn’t Crowley or Rowena help the Winchesters escape? Why did Castiel take Satan Baby Mama to a diner and let her out of his sight? Why not take the Satan Baby Mama to a safe location?

    I’m trying to think of the dumb/bad episodes we’ve had in the past and I can’t think of one that is worse than last night’s episode.

    Comment by Bree — December 9, 2016 @ 5:42 am

  8. It’s easy to see why this season is so terrible. Season 11 storyline should have been saved for the last season. It should have ended with God/Amara leaving to heaven along with Castiel and Lucifer, and bringing back Mary and John so they could be a family.

    Ever since season 4 ‘God’ was the big mystery. The strongest, most important being in the whole series. I always thought the show would end with him appearing in the last 1 or 2 episodes.

    Now, he appeared (and got reduced to a weak, crying ‘human’ who needed Sam and Dean to play dr Phil with his son, and after he left, the world is the same mess with Lucifer wanting to take over.

    But… the biggest storyline can never be topped. No matter what the writers come up with, it will always be ‘soft’ compared to Amara/God. Worst of all, this is a rehashed storyline, instead of a new one.

    I didn’t watch the episode yet but reading the comments I already know this is terrible. Castiel seems to have no powers at all (he used to delete memories, knock down doors, torture to get answers , even read minds). And now he is a bigger moron than Sam and Dean. He doesn’t need to ask anything he’s a freaking angel. Same goes for Crowley btw.

    For all we know God could come down, take down Lucifer and go back to heaven. We know its that easy. But this season is a huge mess (even though I liked some episodes), and I don’t think this will go anywhere.

    Comment by Robin — December 9, 2016 @ 6:00 am

  9. My gosh. Who writes this crap?

    Comment by Talos — December 9, 2016 @ 9:19 am

  10. By the way, as its innumerable cultural references suggest, the series has always been set in “real time” USA. Now, the Winchesters live in a mythical country administered by a white, widower president who hangs out at an elegant resort with his girlfriend.

    Did the show recently move to an alternate universe? That could explain a lot–including why God turned out to be a complete fool with an equally idiotic sister.

    Comment by Talos — December 9, 2016 @ 10:06 am

  11. Wow, that was truly awful. The program really has been dumbed-down to the level of a 1980’s cartoon. The terrible scenes with the President and the British Men-Of-Letters/Mr. Ketch were especially cringe-worthy.

    I think the decision to cast David Chisum as the President of the United States and David Haydn-Jones as Mr. Ketch/British Man of Letters is a perfect example that shows the lack of good judgment on the part of the production team going on in this season.

    Canadian actor David Haydn-Jones’ accent was beyond poor, it was INSULTING! Good luck getting this season aired in the UK now! How could the producer/director have watched the final cut of this episode and not thought to themselves at the 11th hour that they need to do a dub-over of David Haydn-Jones’ performance. Reminds me of the voice-actors that did accents in the 1980’s G.I. Joe cartoon.

    And taking on the role of The President of the United States-as-possessed-by-Lucifer for a program that’s been on the air for 12 seasons would be a hefty one for any actor, but giving it to someone that barely has any acting credentials really shows a lack of judgment here. Seriously, google “David Chisum landscape Lake apt” and ask yourselves what was going on in the mind of the produces/directors when they cast THIS guys to play such an important and hefty role (maybe he was doing some gardening work for the director and/or producer and they were impressed with it). Don’t they have a budget anymore to cast decent guest actors?

    Bad casting, bad writing, bad directing, poor dialog and bankrupt story ideas really sums up this episode and the general direction of the program. So sad.

    Comment by dscford — December 9, 2016 @ 10:31 am

  12. This is gonna be a long post y´all.
    Where do I even begin? Let me review this episode and the first half of season 12. To summarize these 41 minutes in one sentence: compared to this, ‘Bugs’ is a classic. Dog Dean Afternoon is a masterpiece. This is literally the worst episode of supernatural so far.
    I am not a person who says ‘supernatural has been bad for years now’. I really enjoyed season 11 a lot too, minus a few episodes. At least the characters were themselves. But okay let me start, I try to be objective and point out both good and bad parts.

    The opening scene was really bad. How many times have we seen this, but then with a demon or another villain? Very cheap.
    Then, we go over to Sam and Dean. They investigate the church and find out Lucifer is gone, fine. They go back to the bunker and do research.
    In the meantime we see the president make a deal with Lucifer and killing his security agent. I did like the conversation they had in their head because it reminded me of Lucifer talking to Sam when he possessed him in Swan Song.
    The first real weird moment was when Sam suddenly had a problem with Crowley coming in. I mean how many times has he been there? Even the whole episode 11×23 he was there with them. Crowley has been helping the brothers for years now and now, at a moment when it doesn’t make any sense, he suddenly acts like a 14 year old girl. Totally not needed.
    Then we see the romantic relationship between Lucifer and Callie, absolutely terrible. Who gives a shit? And second of all, what a loser! At least last episode he was a mean bad guy with evil plans. I liked that. This took up so much time and for what?
    Then the Rowena scene. Also very, very weird. What did that man add? I like that Crowley killed him but then Rowena saying ‘this is the sweetest thing you ever done for me’ is so NOT Rowena.

    Comment by Robin — December 9, 2016 @ 2:54 pm

  13. Dean, Sam and Cass hit the road and get stopped by the presidents security. I liked the fight. It was lame as hell that Castiel stayed in the car, but when he finally stepped out I was like, YES, GET THEM.
    Dean: Cass no!…. Cass no??? What the hell? This was a chance to finally show season 4 Castiel again like they promised. Those guys were in their way to get to Lucifer, so Castiel takes care of them with no mercy. Of course, Castiel wasn’t allowed to do this because that cringe worthy British dude had to make an appearance. Also a terrible character, and again ‘hey halo’, ‘I like you angels’ is such a disrespect to how amazing he used to be. At that moment, the old Cass would have pushed him against a tree telling him to show some more respect. But no, the British dude had to be the hero here.
    Honestly my favorite part of this episode was Castiel using mind control on the security guy. Now THAT is what I want to see from him. I realize this is a lame thing to have as a favorite scene but this was literally the only moment where one of the characters acted as themselves.
    Then they try to catch Lucifer. But… did none of them see that Lucifer did not enter the egg, but escaped? ‘we have Lucifer!!’ No you don’t. Crowley suddenly disappears looking spooked, for what? Bigger question, why did he take Rowena? Since when does he care?
    Then the Winchester stick around only to get arrested? WHY? From what I seen it looks like that security guard is possessed or something, maybe Lucifer? He acted so weird.
    Then they make Castiel look like a dumbass once again when the girl just walked away.
    Did the writers watch the first seasons? The whole Lucifers baby thing has been done in ‘I believe the children are our future’. Of course it wasn’t exactly Lucifers baby but still. They will never top that episode or storyline, so again, no originality.
    Dean: not needed in this episode, at ALL. Where is the Dean who gave that big speech to Amara?
    Sam: a moron who worries about small things like Crowley, totally out of character.
    Crowley: too quiet this episode, it looks like something is up but I think its just terrible writing.
    Rowena: very, very weird.
    Castiel: the writers had so many chances this episode to give us S4 Cas, but all of them were wasted by making him look weak again (or treated like one by Dean and that ‘Mr Catch’ idiot.
    If you read this post and agree, read my post (# 8) where I give my thoughts why this season doesn’t work. S11 is amazing compared to this. At least the characters where themselves. But like I said, the show should have ended with Gods appearance, after that the show doesn’t have a chance. All of that is no excuse for this horrible, horrible episode though.

    Last week I said I hope Mary doesn’t get possessed, but right now I wish they went with that instead. I hope somehow they save this season after the break but I doubt it. I stand by what I said in my 8th post.

    Comment by Robin — December 9, 2016 @ 2:57 pm

  14. * Oh and one thing, after last week Rick Springfield being a great Lucifer, the writers even succeeded to make that character act totally different and not like he used to. So far:

    Mark Pellegrino
    Rick Springfield
    Jared Padalecki
    Mischa Collins

    The ‘President of the United States’

    this is how I rank the Lucifer actors/writing

    Comment by Robin — December 9, 2016 @ 3:01 pm

  15. Well, that was terrible. The writers seem to forget (among other million things) that Crowley, Castiel or Rowena could easily teleport Sam and Dean out of jail.

    I think this new showrunner is even worse than the last one. The problem is that there is a huge disconnection between the episodes. It’s like the writers don’t talk to each other or don’t have any idea what the others did. And coordinate all the plots, the storylines, the mytharc, make sure the characterization is right, etc is the showrunner’s job. Kripke did a great job. Gamble too IMO despite the undeserved crap she gets when she was left with a difficult situation. Carver started being careless about characterization, lore and continuity, even forgetting what himself introduced. Now is even worse, when even a mid-season finale is this boring and stupid in general.

    Oh Supernatural, it’s in moments like this when I wish you had a decent ending when you were still so good. So painful to see you fall because of the people in charge don’t seem to care anymore.

    Comment by emmanuel — December 9, 2016 @ 4:42 pm

  16. this was going to be the end of the series for me still might me this episode wasn’t bad but it wasn’t good wasn’t expecting much from the writers who did the episode god they bad we all the reason while they still on the show
    the things i don’t get about this episode
    Lucifer the last time he got his vessel the Ceo and the priest was close to each other how did Lucifer got to the president
    surely they would of checked that Lucifer went into the egg and not escaped
    is the head of security is now Lucifer vessel due to the way he was starring at Dean when they were arrested
    and the big one that everyone on this post is pissed about why did Sam and dean just stayed around to be arrested they did remember that there was security with the president so they should of just left and let them deal with the president
    there was also no fight when they were arrested they just let it happened
    i also hated the following with the episode
    all the talking between the president and the girl in bed
    Jensen could of had the week off with the lack of dean in the episode i would of understood it if his wife was due to give birth that week but this episode was done way before this
    Cas is still so boring i mean come on do something for pete’s sake
    the writers and the actors has gotten lazy this season there is no worry that they not going to get renewed so there is no threat to make this season even exiting

    what i am not looking forward to in 2017
    the next episode in the season is the 250th and by the looks of it not going to be anything special i mean usually if i show to get to this point they make it special but since they thinking they going to make it to 300 they all thrown in the towel on this one
    at the convention they were talking about them working in the forest with soldiers chasing them this is the 250th one
    there is a Cas episode why chuck why he is not that interesting to begin with why do an episode that focused on him ( this is about the time twins were born so that is why but surely they could of done a sam episode or a crowely episode which they have never done)
    There is an episode that like yellow fever episode where something happens to dean Yellow fever is one of my faves so my guess is that they going to ruin yellow fever for me

    so all in all this season sucks the writers suck they need to do something soon and not rely on the fact that they going to be renewed to 300 because fans are going to tune out the show soon if something does not change because i am very very close to not watching the crap that was once my fave show

    Comment by Keri — December 9, 2016 @ 6:14 pm

  17. This episode was so awful. As a Vancouver resident I just want to go bang on the door of the studio and scream, “WTF!!!”

    And in the advertisements I thought it was going to be a format to raz on you Yanks new president, Donald Trump. What a missed opportunity the writers had there.

    And seriously, America! What the heck were you thinking??? You’ve gone from having the coolest president in the world to, well, Donald Trump.

    SPN should end this season. It’s awful.

    Comment by dinley.mogene — December 9, 2016 @ 6:46 pm

  18. Well i through with the series i might pick it up season 13 but it is unlikely i mean consider this season besides seasons 6-8 Those season were award winning the writers, producers, and actors have all given up and in it for the money i just can’t watch anymore

    i been watching season 1 and i going right through it but stopping in the later seasons i really enjoying the earlier seasons you get bad ass music, bad ass Sam and dean, really scary gory episodes, unique episodes ie sucidal teddy bears, black and white episodes and full funny episodes ahh the good times when the writers thought about what they were doing
    rotten snary Crowley , douchy Cas that was bad ass
    as i said the good times compare the earlier to the this season oh my chuck is it even the same show
    i am truly sorry for Jensen and Jared having to put up with this show surely they just in it for the money
    what in chuck names is the writers thinking

    Note this below is interview is from andrew dadd
    about latest episode
    it’s an idea that wasn’t an immediate hit in the writers’ room but one that Singer says he and Dabb were convinced they could make work in an episode that he thinks turned out to be “really cool.” ( it didn’t workStarting in the mid-season finale, Dabb says, “The British Men of Letters are going to come back a lot stronger, and then we’ll bring them more to the foreground as the season goes on. But it starts in this episode when we introduce a character — we’ve heard his name a few times and we’ve seen him a little bit but we get our first big introduction to him in episode 8 and use this as a launch pad into the next two-thirds of our season.” (Perhaps we’re talking about Mr. Ketch?)

    And of course, as with any mid-season finale, there’s a cliffhanger that will carry fans into 2017 and specifically into episode 250 (the first episode back in the new year). “[Episode] 250 is a continuation of a two-parter so we’re completing that arc with the mid-season cliffhanger and then figuring it out,” Singer says. (good chuck they work it out i think not )

    there is no hope for this season and i not even going to bother with it at least for me this was a ok end to the series there is a devil baby in the world and Sam and Dean are in prison it could of been a worst end for me
    Goodbye later seasons of supernatural it been fun to a point

    Comment by Kez — December 10, 2016 @ 2:34 am

  19. 250th episode gonna be the worst ‘special’ episode

    Comment by Robin — December 10, 2016 @ 3:26 am

  20. Glad to see I’m not alone in my dislike of this episode. The Winchesters were like extras in their own show and the few times they had something to do, they acted like Dumb and Dumber.

    The drop in quality started in the season 11 finale and the show hasn’t picked up since. Sad to say but Dabb is a terrible showrunner. Here’s to hoping the rest of the season focuses on the Winchesters and gives them something to do.

    Comment by Virile Manifestation of the Divine — December 10, 2016 @ 4:35 am

  21. @17, what I admire about this episode is that the writers did NOT take the opportunity to go after Donald Trump. As for “the coolest president in the world,” you can have him.

    After last season’s Chuck and Sis debacle, the showrunners seem to given up the concept of a strong mytharc in favor of a hodge podge of aimless, disconnected, dreadfully boring plot lines. Mary was brought to life to wander the earth for no good reason, Crowley wants his old job back, Lucifer’s throwing a tantrum because his Daddy abandoned him, the Men and Women of Letters are having a hissy fit over the Winchesters’ monster hunting methods, etc. Nowhere this season is the glue SN so desperately needs to hold itself together: ONE truly terrifying SUPERNATURAL villain who hasn’t a funny bone in its body.

    Those who write the best horror never throw everything into the kitchen sink. They keep things simple: hero vs. villain. But stale, campy Lucifer won’t work to put viewers on the edge of their seats; neither will a standard psychopath like Ketch. Raw, relentless, inhuman, and immensely powerful evil is all that can save this show now.

    Maybe Lucifer’s offspring will do the trick–as long as it’s male. These writers have to wake up to the fact that female villains have never been as scary as the male ones and never will be.

    Comment by Talos — December 10, 2016 @ 1:38 pm

  22. Dabb and singer are the worse show runners and i thought that Gamble was bad but these two have been with the show a long time and they should know better that things ain’t working
    i am re watching season 11 at the moment things went down hill from there since they used god and Lucifer and Amara story they with smaller this year which was a really bad choice i think season 11 should of been handled in another way they could of used the darkness more of a virus type thing not the sister of god and they never address that Dean killed Death that alone could of been a storyline in season 11 ( i mean yes people died in season 12 but should they be able to did they get another death it hasn’t been address and in my option would of been cool for season 11 the other thing they should of never done is do Lucifer i mean was it really that necessary the only way he was there was to get info on the darkness it wasn’t needed to be done same with God why go that big for this season and write themselves into a corner
    another cool thing was to explore the Men or letters bunker a bit more we see some of the bunker but it big why not explore
    Also billie the reaper could of been used in season 11 when she stated that once they die they not coming back
    as for season 11 finale they could of done men of letters a bit sooner then intro it one or two episode at very end
    they could of set the bomb off and dean went into the void and they could of used that story as a season 12 opener
    there are heaps of better things they could of done to get season 12 more attracted the things they done for season 12 it so disapointing
    they didn’t keep up with there promises
    season 4 Cas never happened he is worst this season than the last one
    and getting back to season 1 story did sound interesting but i watching season 1 again at the moment and season 1 was cool it has bad ass hunters, cool music, plently of gore and scares
    this season is pure crap and embrassed for the Jensen and Jared to still be doing this show
    this is it for me i going back to earlier seasons and stopping at season 10

    Comment by Keri — December 11, 2016 @ 4:23 am

  23. Just watched the promo. (Spoiler if you haven’t)

    Why do they sit there for 6 weeks? I mean sure Cas can’t fly/teleport with broken wings but he can walk in, they can’t hurt him.

    Then do that mind control thing and break them out. It’s so easy lol.

    I do hope he and Mary free them badass style so we can at least see them do something powerful this season. And also Crowley can just teleport them out. So weird all of this.

    Comment by Robin — December 12, 2016 @ 2:40 am

  24. Do you guys have the feeling that sometimes some posters here sound exactly like some other regular posters? Not only about their opinions (people use to agree) but also the way they express themselves? It doesn’t happen often, but sometimes I wonder if people use different names, for differnt reasons. I remember a regular poster here whose posts sounded exactly like others with a different name but she admitedly said she was the same person but changed the name for technical reasons.

    Have you guys ever changed your username for whatever reason? Because some very active people suddenly disappears from the boards when they are really still there but with a different alias. The first time I posted here a few years back it was with a name I forgot, so I decided to use my real name LOL!

    Anyway, maybe it’s just me or sometimes different people do have similar styles, but sometimes it’s so similar that I can’t help but wonder. Just a funny thought.

    Comment by emmanuel — December 12, 2016 @ 5:50 am

  25. I have been posting here for a few years but the last 2 years more active. My name has always been Robin but I noticed another ‘robin’ posts here as well. Very different style though.

    I think the other robin is female though, because I think I’ve seen a comment about one of the brothers appearance -of course it could also be a guy/gay person- but from what I read it seems like a girl. I made comments about some female characters like Delphine before (and damn I miss Kate’s version of Ruby and Bella)

    I do remember posters like sheri being more active before.

    Comment by Robin — December 12, 2016 @ 8:27 am

  26. I have been been watching and rewatching the promo for 12×9 and something kept nagging me about it. Couldn’t place it until today. . It has to do with Mary. In the promo she asks -who we are to assume is Cas (granted this is all out of context so it might not be what it seems) but anyway -She asks cas how long have they been gone. Cas says 6 weeks 10 days ect ect….. Here is my concern so to speak – It took Mary 6 weeks to miss the boys and to find out if something happened to them? Are we as an audience supposed to like this woman after her not being concerned or in touch with her boys for 6 whole weeks? Frankly if this is the case -that she wasn’t concerned for 6 weeks that has ruined her character for me and I hope she goes back to her heaven quik. That imo is more cold than John ever was with the boys.

    Emmanuel-I changed my name once. from animal to animala. Tech reasons.

    Comment by animala — December 12, 2016 @ 2:28 pm

  27. @animala this could even be worse. Perhaps it was Cas who approached Mary and she didn’t bother to look for them at all.

    Comment by Robin — December 13, 2016 @ 6:32 am

  28. Yes Robin-that would be even worse. If either one of those two things happen the writers would have totally destroyed Mary to me imo. I wasn’t happy about bringing her back just for that reason. I didn’t want these writers to destroy her standing so to speak. It could be they do just that.

    Comment by animala — December 13, 2016 @ 3:25 pm

  29. I mean I get that its totally weird for her. And I understand she wants some time for herself.

    But the Mary we saw in the time travel episodes, the flasbacks in Dark side Of the Moon and in ‘Home’ would never let her sons down.

    Such a weird thought that an angel and the king of hell care more about the boys than she does.

    Comment by Robin — December 14, 2016 @ 1:08 am

  30. I totally get that she would be disoriented too. However I don’t get why the separation from the boys. Like Dean said they could have filled in the blanks for her. Dean had already started in the first episode of the season filling her in. A phone call from her to whomever it is she is looking for or trying to connect with would of been better than her going off without the brothers. I just don’t like her. I love the actress but I don’t like the character and that disappoints me.

    Comment by animala — December 14, 2016 @ 3:55 am

  31. What bothers me is that the writers probably don’t know why Mary’s wandering around anymore than we do. As usual, they’ll wait till the last minute before the script is due, then they’ll come up with a “big reveal” that makes absolutely no sense at all. Good writers always know their destination before they begin the trip.

    Comment by Talos — December 15, 2016 @ 2:33 pm

  32. After last episode I decided not to watch this episode so soon, as I gave priority to Westworld (completely worth to watch), but seeing the commentaries here it’s very clear I missed nothing.

    Comment by Fulan — December 15, 2016 @ 10:19 pm

  33. I never thought i say this but i am truly hate this season i have never hated a season of supernatural there has been little charms in the bad mix but this year there is nothing but bad and for the first time i am not looking forward to the season coming back for what i reading there is nothing there to look forward to, More Mary what they have done for the character and how her sons react to her being back is all over the place. More Men of Letters it more mr Ketch and then other men of letters and how about the Devils baby we have that to look for to LOL. Then there is the Cas Episode that i will be missing i have no intention of ever watching and Episode that all about the most boring Character supernatural. then there is a kind of like yellow fever deaged Dean haven’t they done one and it one of my faves so thinking that there is no funny bone in any of the writers so doing funny will probs be cringe worthy i truly miss Ben Edlund everytime i saw that he was the writer i couldn’t wait for the episode not there is no unique writers in the group. the only spark is that Mark Pellegrino is apparely coming back but with what a mess this season is it still not going to be good
    with little hope i going to quit the show for this season and maybe watch it when there is nothing else to watch
    this statement is a shock to me as supernatural was my fave show but this year it a mess that i want no part on
    the writers suck the showrunners are the worst in supernatural history and i think at this point the J’S are in it for the money
    i started watching season 2 again am so enjoying what supernatural was

    Comment by Keri — December 16, 2016 @ 5:05 am

  34. What a terribly written episode. 1. No cop, even the secret service would pull over a car and then park in front of the pulled over car. 2. Why would they check on the President when they damn well know secret service is right out the door. Anyone with common sense would simply bail out of there. They should have escaped with Castiel and the woman. 3. After being told that the baby is an abomination and all the weird supernatural stuff recently witnessed, plus knowing it is Lucifer’s baby you wouldn’t want to give birth to it. 4. Wasn’t the English Men of Letters dude supposedly hired to knock off the Winchester’s? It’s a Lame story arc that is to bring in new relics to fight off creatures and supernatural beings. 5. Why isn’t Lucifer just picking up where he left off from Season 5?

    This was just a terrible episode. Chalk this one right up with the last few episodes of season 11.

    Comment by Salarian — December 16, 2016 @ 9:53 pm

  35. i have started watching the earlier seasons god this show used to be good it used to be full of quirky bits and humor there was gore and creative episodes and then there was cool archs john dying, Sam evil, dean going to hell and like of curve balls. now we get no archs, they run out of good ideas and giving us the same storylines i don’t at this point if they can turn the show around it doesn’t look like it not with the current showrunners and the writing team they have i going to not go back to the season next year i going to record it and maybe get to it when there is nothing else i never thought i would ever say this because even if i season was bad there was still some thing i likes but 8 episodes in i haven’t liked one of them

    Comment by Keri — December 17, 2016 @ 12:24 am

  36. i have never disliked a season as i have this one and it is only the beginning and i have hated every single episode i have no intention of watching past the eight episodes next year and maybe will go back to it i have started watching the early seasons my god what a difference this is when the show was funny snarky gory and well thought out with interesting ideas now look at what the show has become and i don’t think they are going to do anything to change it all signs have pointed to them getting a another season so to me they don’t care about the quality of this season they used to think that every season would be there last so they put in so much more into it the example of them not caring is that the next episode is the 250th and all other shows that reach it and its not many do something special for it for the way it looking it just going to be another episode because they want to get to 300th come on people step in and give a damm about what you are showing your fans because what you showing sucks and i want no part of it anymore tonight along with yellow fever i watch the season 10 upfront presentation where the showed the past nine season episode god it was so good but sad at the same time because this was when the show was at it best now it just a big pile of crap

    Comment by Rachelle — December 17, 2016 @ 5:04 am

  37. I will have to disagree with those who say SPN is terrible. I have liked some things in most episodes of every season. I don’t watch SPN for story arc since s7 because they just disappoint me most times. Like Amara/Dean connection. Or the arcs aren’t flushed out like they should be. For example Demon Dean. I watch episode by episode and take them as individual stories and most of the time I like most of the episode. Some I have not liked but most I have. Mainly J2.

    Comment by animala — December 17, 2016 @ 6:04 am

  38. I enjoy J2. Right now Mary is a huge concern for me as a character. I just don’t like her character at all. Like I said above that disappoints me. I like Crowley and Rowena for their role on the show. They don’t take away from the main characters of Sam and Dean. They prop up their story. I don’t like Cas or Lucifer. The angel story has gone dry for me since season 7/8. Those scenes I FF thru.

    Comment by animala — December 17, 2016 @ 6:12 am

  39. I like the BMOL when they are in an episode but as a story arc it just isn’t one. You can’t have an arc if you don’t see them for episodes at a time or keep it cohesive. Anyway I still like SPN. I like J2.

    Comment by animala — December 17, 2016 @ 6:16 am

  40. If you check out, they have a good set of suggestions about how to make season 12 better. I personally think these changes will have to be applied to season 13 because most of the season has probably been filmed at this point.
    The article suggested:
    1) Define the villain for the season. The series has refused to create a big bad in most recent seasons. It is usually a mix of angels and demons nonsense followed by a character emerging from it who may not be evil, but is a pain to the brothers.

    2) Have a defined goal. There needs to be story that drives the brothers the entire season. The MOTW epsiodes are good and usually very interesting, but we need a Yellow-Eyed Demon story to give the brothers urgency to accomplish something.

    3) No more end of the world, angels and demons stories. The idea is played out and the writers refuse to move on. I have always wanted to see a return to the urban legend stories that made the show great.

    4) Bring characters back together. The article suggested the boys mom needs to be brought back into the fray to connect with her sons and also to explain why and how she came back. The article also pushed for a return of Castiel to a more prominent role although I must disagree with this point considering there seems to be too big of an emphasis on him over the bros in my opinion.

    I figure since the show will be on until the Js decide to move on or the network ends, given the recent good ratings and failure of new shows, why not make the show better instead of treading water.

    Comment by Jayday — December 18, 2016 @ 1:45 pm

  41. @Jayday. I haven’t read the article, but I agree with what you said. The writers don’t really seem to know where they’re going with the story, so they need a GOOD big Bad (unlike Amara). What is he/she, what’s his/her purpose, make it mysterious with a slow development (like Azazel), and make him/her EVIL, not a cartoon.

    I also agree with you about Castiel. If anything, I think the character has held back the show immensely, constantly creating stupid storylines involving the overdone angels just to keep him around. I get it, the Js need time off and the writers don’t want to deal with crazy fangirls threatening to kill themselves if they get rid of Cass (and yes, I’ve seen them sending those messages to the writers). Without the angels, Cass has no purpose on the show. He can’t be hunting because he would be an easy solution for everything, but when he’s not fully-powered he’s useless and boring by definition. The writers should make the brothers close the Gates of Heaven with all the angels locked away forever so humans can mind their own business, leaving the Gates of Hell for the series finale. What would be more important than that? Fan-service is good storytelling’s worst enemy.

    And to be honest, as much as I absolutely love Mark Shepperd (words can’t describe it), Crowley is past his expiration day too. We use to have cool new characters every season. Kripke never feared killing them off or get rid of them when he felt he had no reason to keep them around anymore, before they became boring. He used to do things well.

    Other than that, I agree with the other points of the article you mentioned.

    Comment by emmanuel — December 19, 2016 @ 10:11 am

  42. Well this just made my day worst there is an article with Andrew daddy that stays there will be three episodes that strongly about casetiall I knew about one and that was bad enough what’s in God name is happening with the show this so far is worst season to date

    Comment by Keri — December 19, 2016 @ 7:27 pm

  43. I just read that keri- the first two episodes in February and then episode 19. Dabb says he was concerned about not giving Crowley and cas their due because of introducing bmol, Lucifer, and Mary. So in the second half of the season he is giving them their due. Well How about giving Dean and Sam their due? Gawd this concerns me big time. I know I won’t be watching those episodes at all. I don’t care about castiel.
    The character has done nothing but made SPN stale as hell when it is dealing with Cas/angels and demons on their own without the brothers being envolved. Yuk.

    Comment by animala — December 19, 2016 @ 7:53 pm

  44. i agree animala what are Sam and dean during when the story is focused on Cas i won’t be watching any of them as well i do think the timing of the Cas being the main focused is due to Jensen and Jared children being born but still can they not think of something else other than Cas story lines

    Comment by Keri — December 20, 2016 @ 3:06 am

  45. I can’t believe I’m about to say this, but this may be it for me in regards to SPN. The last episode, the mid-season finale no less, was just so poorly written, and not many of the other 7 episodes were much better. Dean may as well not even be in the show anymore, considering how little he is involved and yet Castiel gets 3 “heavy” episodes.

    I am not anti-Castiel, he used to be my 2nd favorite character, but the show has wasted him and awkwardly inserted him in places. Considering how bad the writing is, I would be afraid of how the writers are going to write Castiel. There is 1 episode coming up that is supposedly Dean “heavy” and it’s the only episode we’ve seen any excitement from Jensen, but I’m afraid it’s going to be like Yellow Fever, where Dean is mocked (though Yellow Fever didn’t do Sam and Bobby any favors either, it made them look like uncaring jerks).

    I don’t get this season at all. I’m actually glad the show isn’t airing for a number of weeks, I like the break. I don’t know how many episodes I’ll be watching in the rest of this season. Nothing sounds that exciting or interesting.

    Comment by Bree — December 20, 2016 @ 6:07 am

  46. @Bree, what did Sam and Bobby do to be uncaring jerks in Yellow Fever? They were just fine and professional, they didn’t panic because that never helps and they saved Dean’s life. Typical day in a hunter’s office. They have been plenty of times the boys have been jerks to each other (dudes being dudes), I spent half season 8 wanting to punch Sam on the face, but not that time.

    And Dean didn’t get mocked, he was under a spell. One that made him react in a way that he wouldn’t normally do. Yes, his reactions were for comedic purpose, but that wasn’t regular Dean, and everybody knew it. Sometimes fans get offended for things the actual characters don’t mind at all.

    What is a mockery is the way both brothers are being written lately, getting fooled, beaten and being plain stupid sometimes, this last episode being a perfect example.

    It’s funny how many people are claiming to be re-watching old episodes and comparing them to what we have now. It’s really painful to see the great thing we used to have. The other day I was watching the episode “Caged Heat” (s6). OMG, I had forgotten how much I love that episode. It surprised me how much I enjoyed it because it’s not one of the most memorable episodes, it’s not on my top list of anything, but it was a regular and FUN MOTW episode. It was very entertaining and the interactions between characters were so great. Even season 7 is a masterpiece compared to what we have now.

    Comment by emmanuel — December 20, 2016 @ 9:46 am

  47. @Emmanuel – you and I will have to disagree about Yellow Fever. I don’t want to beat a dead horse about that episode; it’s been hashed out for years. That episode wasn’t really the point of my post anyway.

    After watching a few episodes this season, it doesn’t seem like the writers care about the product they’re putting out, or that it makes sense or in character.

    I saw a post on another site where someone said that the first half of Season 12 was about Lucifer and the second half seems to be more about Cass. I’ll add that we still have more Lucifer coming in the second half and I would assume his baby mama and the unborn devil child. Not to mention Mary, Crowley, Rowena, and the British Men of Letters. I’m trying to see what storylines the Winchesters will have and it doesn’t seem like the showrunner has anything to talk about for them.

    Comment by Bree — December 20, 2016 @ 10:19 am

  48. So this has come from Andrew Dadd interview

    The amount of Castiel-related material is apparently part of a concerted effort by the Supernatural team to give the character his due after being so absent in the first half of the season. “We had to cram a lot into those [first eight episodes] … part of our concern was … that certain people, specifically Castiel and Crowley, are going to get a little bit of a short shrift as we establish these new characters and put them on the board,” Dabb explained.

    “I think we did a fairly good job of keeping Crowley alive [and] keeping Castiel alive, but the new characters certainly ate up a little space,” Dabb elaborated, talking about the new vessel of Lucifer and the British Men of Letters.

    Apparently all of that will change in the next half of season 12. At least Dabb thinks it will. “We have a lot more room to play. Those characters are going to come to the fore a lot more.”

    So what do you think? Are you excited to get more information on Castiel’s past? Are you encouraged that the rest of season 12 will focus more on established characters like Crowley and Castiel? Do you have any theories on the different way the episodes will be Cas-heavy?

    Cramm New Characters into the first part ok did i miss something Lucifer was a joke the first half Mary wasn’t in it much and BMOL wasn’t in it so how was it cramming i do not want three heavy Cas episodes !!!! how but there promise to go back to first season fill and that would be about the Boys when you take in there is going to be 3 Cas episodes it only leaves 10 episodes lelfed in the season so Jensen and Jared going to be left out of there own show god i hate this season and what i reading i not going forward with the second half

    i also been going back to the earlier seasons at the moment god the show used to be good they have runined the show for me this year

    Comment by Rachelle — December 20, 2016 @ 12:40 pm

  49. @Bree. Fair enough. I was just curious, but you are right, no need to go back to it.

    @Rachelle, thank you for the info. So it’s not just Cass, but Crowley too.

    “Cramm New Characters into the first part ok did i miss something Lucifer was a joke the first half Mary wasn’t in it much and BMOL wasn’t in it “.

    -Exactly. That’s why I would take the showrunner’s info with a grain of salt. Not the first time that what they are trying to sell us is not what we see on screen. I still remember Carver’s interviews and how inaccurate he was, I think Dabb is the same. This season they said we were gonna see Cass being like season 4 in the first few episodes. Have you seen that Cass? Yeah, me neither.

    It makes sense that the writers want to give Castiel and Crowley a reason to stick around. The Js have said a million times that the characters are there to relieve some of the weigh on their shoulders so they can be with their growing families, both of them at the same time because the Ackles-Padaleckis are like a big family, and the Js have said multiple times that they don’t like when the brothers are separated, so they need other characters who are not the Winchester bros to take screen time.

    While I understand the Js position as actors and workers, the quality of the show is suffering from it, among other factors (the writers’ incompetence, for example). The problem is that the writers have forgotten to give the brothers a storyline this season.

    Comment by emmanuel — December 20, 2016 @ 1:47 pm

  50. I just read some info about s12e11. This is the episode where Dean is de-aged. Dabb said that Dean is loosing his memory so it frees him to be more carefree because he doesn’t remember hunting ect…. It gets emotional when he forgets Sam. Jensen said he really liked this script. This could go different ways but sounds interesting on the surface.

    I am sorry to say this but I feel that if J2 want more time with their families so they need these other characters to take up space and time on screen is a disservice to the show and to the fans. Infact I would tell them both then to stop doing the show and get movie roles or part time roles and go be with your family instead of ruining this show. I mean Collins can’t carry a scene let alone a whole episode. They tried that and it was horrendous. Mark probably could though but I am really not so interested in his backstory that Sam and Dean aren’t on my screen. Movies -depending on how big budgeted it is shoots 1 or 2 months and then J2 could be home again with family until another little movie or guest role comes up. I hate that excuse. (Well J2 needs the other characters so they can be with their families.) Bull-you have a show-so show up and be protective of your show and characters. jmo but I dislike that excuse.

    Comment by animala — December 20, 2016 @ 4:39 pm

  51. I would rather see Jensen and Jared both be in a really well written guest role or small movie than in SPN with bad writing and their characters are sold out for cas and Crowley.

    Comment by animala — December 20, 2016 @ 4:40 pm

  52. Couldn’t agree more with last two comments either Jensen and Jared need to be more committed to the show or give the show up because they always said if the quality is still there then they will go on the quality of the show isn’t there so give up the show also if you want to spend more time with family stop doing so many conventions for money and spend the weekend with the your family instead of slacking off during filming episodes i mean the last one before mid finale was Jensen even needed he had nothing to do with whats been put up for this season plot wise we have 3 Cas episodes lucifer lucifer baby, More Mary in second half and more BMOL And one Deaged Dean crowley team up in buddy comedy and more season 4 like Cas expect for the deaged Dean one there not much about What Dean and Sam will be doing usually at least one of them gets an arch i have never not liked an season there is always something in it i like but this season nothing for me and it looks like nothing will improve i usually download episodes but i also buy the Dvd so i i can keep supernatural for a long time this year it looks like i won’t even get through a whole season without giving up on it

    Comment by Rachelle — December 20, 2016 @ 6:00 pm

  53. reading about the dean deaged episode where is loses his memory and about hunting and sam is it just me or does that episode remind you of Buffy the vampire slayer episode Band candy if it does the writers stuff truly has run out of ideas and Creativity for the show

    Comment by Keri — December 20, 2016 @ 6:25 pm

  54. so basically the second half will be
    first one Sam and Dean in prison
    the next two after that will be Cas heavy
    then dean De aged in episode 11
    then we have 12-18 no info but learned that the deaf hunter, Claire and Donna returning so it could be in those episodes plus we still have evil baby BMOL and Mary to fit in
    then episode 19 is Cas Heavy again
    then 20 to end
    it looks like so little episodes to fit everything in i can see it going to be a mess of a season as i don’t see the show runners and Writers able to pull anything good off this season i will miss the Cas episodes hate the first eight so basically i looking at 10 episodes for this season for me it been such a waste this year i give up

    Comment by robin — December 20, 2016 @ 10:14 pm

  55. Most of us agree that the writing this season (so far, anyway) is pretty poor. However, I just wanted to give a “shout out” to the crew, especially the makeup people. The makeup and effects for this show, as well as the other work done by the crew is *exceptional*, to say the least. I don’t think they get nearly enough credit. I’m an RN with trauma experience, so I know what wounds and burns look like. The effects are spot on, every time!

    Comment by Petunia — December 21, 2016 @ 1:08 am

  56. Regarding Castiel I agree and disagree..

    Let’s summarize

    Season 4: amazing, badass. Perfectly written. He was loyal, not afraid and always wanted to fight the good fight.
    Season 5: still, amazing and badass. He added a lot to the story and never bitched.
    Season 6: still badass. Yeah he made mistakes but his intentions were good (how many times did Dean and Sam lie again? How can people be such hypocrites)
    Season 7: was gone for most of the season, but loved him when he was around. Both as ‘god’ and idiot.
    Season 8: under control of Naomi but still the Castiel we all know and love.

    Now. In season 9 when the angels fell it all turned to shit.

    Season 9: whiny human. When he got his (stolen) grace back it got a little better since he got that army against Metatron. One major thing: in the end it was Cas who stopped Metatron. In a very lame way -the microphone- but people overlook the fact that he was the hero here, mostly because the concern was Dean dying.
    Season 10: his roadtrip with Hannah was boring as hell. Again he was mostly weak and whiny. When he got his own mojo back we all hoped he returned but he still needed to drive around in that piece of shit car.
    Season 11: writers again made him weak and this time comfirmed that by making Lucifer/Amara and the other angel call him that. Made the choice to free Lucifer which wasn’t exactly good but I kinda get it.
    Season 12: never got to use his powers because Dean stopped him (in last episode) and the writers held him back. Where was badass Cass they promised?

    Regarding the Cas centered episodes.. I disagree with some of you

    Rapture: amazing
    Man who would be king: great, knowing some backstory. I think it was very entertaining.
    Meet the new boss: top 10 spn episode for me.
    Born again identity: again, loved it.
    I’m no Angel: absolutely terrible (but I covered that before)

    I’m forgetting some I think.. but a Cas centered episode should have happened ladt year. Huge opportunity wasted when God returned. I would have loved an episode where God and Cass went on a journey and explained why he is special/chosen. To get to know Castiels backstory and relationship with God… but holy shit they didn’t even talk to eachother.. God didn’t even complimented him or anything. Very weird.

    If this season the Cas centered episodes are about him chasin Lucifer, keep it. But I’m in for any interesting idea as long as Cas isn’t written as a weak pussy.

    If he has to leave the show, please make him go to heaven with Lucifer to put him in jail or something. Make him leave as a hero. Not killed like a weak half angel like he is now. The character deserves more like that.

    Regarding Yellow Fever. Sam acted the same way Dean did in Bad Day at Bad Rock when Sam was cursed. Both 10/10 episodes.

    This season sucks but that goes for all characters. I’d take amara story over this any day. Season 1-11 are leaps and bounds ahead of this.

    Comment by Robin — December 21, 2016 @ 6:19 am

  57. In regard to the Dean spoiler – it’s not just that Dean starts to forget Sam, he also starts to forget himself.

    Here’s the spoiler in its entirety:

    Question: Can the show give us any scoop on Supernatural Episode 11, which is rumored to have a de-aged Dean? —Kim

    Ausiello: Dean’s not physically de-aging, but rather “trapped in a Memento-type loop, where he’s kind of losing his memory a little bit,” Dabb previews. “For him, as someone who struggles with all the baggage from years and years of doing a very, very difficult job, it almost becomes freeing, in a way. So you’re going to see a Dean that is a lot more fun and childlike. Jensen [Ackles] does a great job. Then it becomes a much more tragic story as he starts to forget Sam — and himself.”

    Comment by Bree — December 21, 2016 @ 1:50 pm

  58. the sad thing is that the show is going to be renewed next year with the ratings the way they are and i don’t think that the show runners or the writers they have have the talent to think of a new story arch for next year as i don’t see this year ending with a big cliffhanger so we going to get much of the same

    i have been very dismayed by this season the season 11 ended bad but they usually turn things around the next year i not see it happening this year this is the only year that i have not looked forward to the show returning the only bright spot if they pull it off is the memto one with dean but i not putting much hope in it Yes Richard is the director ( love his last one ) but there is no info who it is written by. and don’t get me started on the Three Cas episodes when did the show start not being about the Winchesters. so taking out the Cas ones and the dean ones we are left with only 10 episodes left to pull something off great and i don’t see it happening we still have Mary, BMOL, And devil child to fit into those episodes plus Claire, Donna and deaf hunter is returning one thing i am hoping for at the end of the year is that Lucifer story is gone Mary is gone (that idea had promise but look what they done with it ) and Devil baby is gone as well but as i said i don’t see they going to be able to pull off a cool season cliffhanger to continue next year so we going to get the same bad ideas next year

    Comment by robin — December 22, 2016 @ 6:49 am

  59. The only spoilers thaat got me happy about this season was there was going to be a dean episode and singer when he was at a convention he said Mark was coming back as luifar then I Bwent reading Dodds interviews not happy at all all things he been saying makes me think this season is going to stay bad especially when saying giving Cass more time as they crammed so much in first half did I miss all of the cramming of new characters Mary wasn’t in it much either was British menot of letters have anyone else notice lack of Facebook mentions of episodes by the JEnsen a or Jared there been some but not as many as last year mostly there instrams and Facebook been about there campaign not so much about the show also there hasn’t been much onset interviews expect for magazine cover interviews and the ones with the 3 of them it’s been mostly dadd and what he has to say worries me about future of show season 11 was a masterpiece compared to this year I never have not wanted to continue with the show as I have this year I going to give it a rest for a while go back to earlier seasons

    Comment by Tabitha — December 22, 2016 @ 11:49 pm

  60. I FF through all of Cass scenes now if he is going to be in most of three eposiodes I might have to call it quits on SPN this year. It breaks my heart I was a really big fan of the Winchesters. I wish they would just call it a day if the writing continues to be this bad.

    Comment by Twh — December 23, 2016 @ 8:28 pm

  61. So I just watched the extended promo for 12×9, Yep they totally ruined Mary for me. It seems (again it could be out of context) but it does look like she comes to the bunker and finds out the boys have been missing for 6 weeks. Gawd what a disappointment. Besides that though the Sam and Dean prison story looks good.

    Comment by animala — December 23, 2016 @ 9:07 pm

  62. The extended trailer still didn’t get exited for watching the show second half really the security person thinks they take one and the other takes the other and kill Sam and Dean I guessing if they read the file of the winchester it not going to be that easy clearly writers and showrunnner have run out of ideas but there was plenty of stories if they just thought about it last year instead of tried lucfier that no one wants and they had Mary coming back the way they have written her was bad girl new ideas they vould of finally address Adam who been in the cage for years it would be a Good arch also I am so surprised they never used that dean killed death how have not address it it wold of been cool arch to the series either dean could of been forced to take dean’s place or death is our for revenge then there is Billie and the void could of been good all I am saying there is good original plots out there if we had good writems and showrunnner any more supernatural should be taking risks not going slower till the end of the series or they not going to have people watch the show

    Comment by Keri — December 23, 2016 @ 10:00 pm

  63. Keri-I never liked Adam. So I don’t want to see him on my screen wasting time that I would rather have spent on Dean and Sam. We already have too many characters taking time away from the main characters of Dean and Sam. I always assumed Adams soul was in heaven. Same for Lucifers Nick. The souls are in heaven the meat suit is generated as needed by Lucifer and/or Michael. So I don’t need an episode of boring Adam yet again telling me something totally ridiculous like these writers like to come up with. Adams story is done imo.

    Comment by animala — December 24, 2016 @ 9:17 am

  64. I know I hate Adam but since he has been in hell for over 100 years it would be a good plot using it instead of getting lucinfeready ND evil baby again but in saying that they had two original ideas this year in Mary and British men of letters and they just wasted it is think last year they really should of gone big and then went slow this year at this stage in the series they should be taking risks not going at such a slow burn to the end there are ideas that they could have done and they gloss over it like dean killed death how is this not covered Billie and the void another great idea also we haven’t seen much of the bunker expect for a few rooms they could of done secrets of men of letters bunker all in all I think writers and showrunners are talentless hacks that taken a once loved show down the toilet and Jared and Jensen can’t believe they still want to do this show when it is like this

    Comment by Keri — December 24, 2016 @ 1:38 pm

  65. This also weirds me out..

    Mary not knowing that Sam and Dean have been locked up is dumb, true.

    But Castiel knowing it for 6 weeks? Dude he rescued Dean from Hell and Sam from Lucifers cage!!! How hard can a human prison be? So weird these writers.

    Comment by Robin — December 24, 2016 @ 4:17 pm

  66. @64 Keri-yep the showrunners and writers have left a lot of good story on the table (or in their case they probably through them out). I would kinda be interested in seeing an evil Adam I guess but I really don’t like the actor who plays him so really I could do without. It does seem to me that Dean killing Death should have been a big deal. The only mention was Billie mentioning to Dean about it -only 1 line- and a matter of fact time sentence. Lots of ideas not played out at all.

    Comment by animala — December 24, 2016 @ 6:48 pm

  67. @65 Robin- Weird yes but only from us as an audience standpoint. Remember 4 out of 8 of the writers are new. They probably never watched an episode from the early years when all the canon was established for the SPN we all fell in love with.

    My thought though is that the prison is warded against everything supernatural by the BMOL. The BMOL are the ones that arranged for Dean and Sam to be arrested and brought there. I also think the old man that the SS guy is talking to is the old man referenced by Lady Beville in episode 1.
    Why they are working together not sure. The SS guy is the key. He was close to Lucifer, He was there when Dean and Sam were pulled over and supposedly mind wiped by cas. Now he is shown at the prison and also talking to the old man. He looks like he might be mind controlled or something. He is the key though imo.

    Comment by animala — December 24, 2016 @ 7:02 pm

  68. @animala that would make perfectly sense.. however I wouldn’t be surprised if it isn’t protected and the writers just dumb down Cass again.

    Comment by Robin — December 25, 2016 @ 3:39 am

  69. I am clearly a minority here but despite me not liking much this season and absolutely hating previous Rock episode, I did like this one. Except for some minor hiccups, but there is no SPN episodes without hiccups anymore.
    The president thing was over the top, but I like how they turned story around. Dean and Sam in prison sounds awesome, I like evil baby thing, and I am glad Lucifer is back in cage. They introduced at least two new characters, and at least baby’s mother is a good actress and can be an interesting addition to the story.
    I haven’t seen promo for next episode yet, but I am looking forward to it.
    Yes, I do see some OOC, and some cheesy lines, and bad pacing here and there, ect, I am not blind. I guess my expectations for show in 12th season is not as high as yours. Still love Winchesters, and don’t mind few Cas-heavy episodes, so Jensen can spend time with his babies. Prefer that to the end of the series.
    People are complaining for the last 7 years, and complaining, and complaining, and dropping show every year, and guess what – show keeps going. So we have another year for sure. I still have hope Dabb finds his ground and fixes all mess in the second half of this season.

    Comment by AAA — December 25, 2016 @ 1:17 pm

  70. I used to complain as the show fixated on the angels and demons story and had no direction. Now, I just watch it and although I hope the show returns to its previous form, I have excepted it may not.

    A few basic changes could make the show a lot better and I don’t believe that because the Js have families that there could not be episodes focused on the Big Bad. Episodes focused on the bad guys perspective would be interesting and since Supernatural likes to break new ground, why not.

    Comment by Jayday — December 25, 2016 @ 4:51 pm

  71. Thus is truly the first year that I haTed a season so much thato I have complained about it I don’t think that the show runners or the writers have the talent to fix the second half of this season and God knows what we going to get in any other season following this one the sad thing is dadd thinks what he and the writers are coming up with cool ideas he seems to come off in interviews that he doing a good job and as he said that he crammed so much into the first part and leaving out case and Crowley out because of it did I miss dome thing with that one yes Jensen and Jared have growing families but surely they can come up with something besides Cass story and do we have to have both off at the same time yes they both get havery growing families but they alook should show commitment to the show that pays them maybe lose dome of the convenation’s they do for the money and stay home instead

    Comment by Keri — December 25, 2016 @ 6:58 pm

  72. @AAA Lucifer is not back in the cage he escaped.

    Agree with most, I have never complained much until this season. Especially the last episode. Liked the Hollywood episodr though, Rick Springfield was good. This episode everyone was just out of character.

    Don’t mind a few Cas episodes either if its not about his whiny problems, but goes back to his origins.

    Comment by Robin — December 26, 2016 @ 3:57 am

  73. I still love this show will continue to love it. I learned a long time ago that all shows episodes have a certain degree of “stupid” in them. I roll with it, I think a better description for this one is contrived. This might actually be SPN’s “Prague Incident”

    I’m referring to episode 3×01 of CHUCK when the writers wrote a totally forced breakup between CHUCK and Sarah that lasted 12 more episodes filled with up and down writing.

    Nothing SPN ever airs will be as bad as the first half of S3 of CHUCK.

    I liked the episode but only because I can see past how contrived the cliffhanger was

    Comment by Joshua — December 27, 2016 @ 5:25 pm

  74. I think the major problem with this season is last season. Where was the show supposed to go when the Supreme Being turned out to be a drunken, whoring wuss and the Biggest Bad of the cosmos was his bratty, sexy sister? By his portrayal of God and sis, Carver essentially denied the existence of the spiritual, mysterious, and miraculous realm, replacing it with a secularist parody of the supernatural. Thus, this season, Lucifer was nothing but a campy, cartoonish rock star, the big bads are B movie thugs, and the edge of your seat, midseason “cliffhanger” consists of the brothers being hauled off to the clinker.

    If it were up to me, I’d turn last season and the first half of this one into a dreadful nightmare created by Death to teach the Winchesters a lesson for trying to kill him. Sometimes, the best way to handle a catastrophic decision for a series is to treat it like it was never made, as the writers of “Dallas” well understood.

    Comment by Taz — December 29, 2016 @ 10:16 am

  75. I read a lot of anti- cas comments.
    Look, I don’t want Cas stories to upstage Sam and Dean stories.
    That being said though, there were a couple of Cas episodes that were great, the first being “The Man who Would Be King” That episode was one of the best, and it fully involved not only Cas and Crowley but also The Winchesters and Bobby.
    But totally Cas only epps? Well, I guess Cas only or Misha Minions will love that, but I really don’t see the majority of SPN fans being much into that.

    Comment by roxi — December 29, 2016 @ 8:11 pm

  76. What I don’t understand about the show anymore is that there is absolutely no direction for the season. The writers knew the show was picked up for 2 years, what do they do during the summer hiatus. The fan ideas for a season are better and it is not as if this season is the first disjointed season. Year after year, it’s the same problem. They are determined not to return to any urban legends or new supernatural elements. I understand the relationship of the bros was what Kripke wanted to explore, but enough already.

    Comment by Jayday — December 30, 2016 @ 2:04 am

  77. @taz I disagree that s11 was bad.. it just should have been the last season ending the show.

    There is nothing that can top a story like that.

    Comment by Robin — December 30, 2016 @ 7:50 am

  78. I’ve been so busy this year I haven’t been able to watch any episodes until last night. With each episode I kept thinking, “It’ll get better; I’ll bet better.


    This last episode was beyond awful. Sam and Dean and the President of the United States?? Talk about jumping the shark. If they’d razzed on Trump it might have made it marginally better but even that couldn’t have saved it.

    I’ve watched SPN since day one but I really think I’m done.

    Comment by DermDoc77 — December 30, 2016 @ 11:07 am

  79. There are things that bug me from last year and this year
    * Dean killed Death how is that not addressed at all it would of been a great story to tell i mean is there a death any more and if there isn’t people shouldn’t be able to die
    * the British men of letters kidnapped Sam out of their bunker so they know the location do Sam and Dean not worry that they are going to be attacked in there own home
    * Baby got left at the hotel when they were arrested so the car been at the hotel for 6 weeks
    * Did they really need the lucifer story line at all i mean he did give up information about the darkness but other than that why use that story line again there must have been better ideas than that
    * The show runners knew they were coming back in season 12 so why did they use God story line in season 11 why go big then go small in season 12 they should of held off on that one Dadd was involved in the last few episodes so why write himself in a corner did he think he was that good that he could write smaller the next year

    well the answer is no he could not the writing is as weak as anything and the story lines are so bad this is by far the worst season they ever had and i am embarrassed for Jared and Jensen and the people that has been there for years
    they need to finish the show before it gets any worse
    god this season sucks so bad

    Comment by Keri — December 30, 2016 @ 10:51 pm

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