“Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets” Discussion

Post your thoughts on this week’s Cas-heavy episode with guest star Alicia Witt. Click HERE for my full recap or keep reading for my quick thoughts.

I always enjoy when the show introduces a new, bad-ass, potentially recurring female character, so huzzah for Lily. An angel expert with an eye patch? Alicia Witt was fantastic and they’d better bring her back, a la another redheaded female, Charlie Bradbury.


I enjoyed the flashback and the twist, so I think more of Lady Cas would’ve been appreciated. She barely got to do anything.


However, this episode pretty much just restates two of the big ongoing storylines that aren’t about the British Men of Letters. What are these cosmic consequences and what will Cas do about Lucifer Jr? With those and the BMOL, this season has a lot of different threads and, surprisingly, I’m intrigued by all of them.

News posted on February 2, 2017 Comments (67)


  1. Well this pissed me off when found out

    Meanwhile, “Regarding Dean” is expected to be “Castiel-heavy” episode. In an interview with TV Line, “Supernatural” executive producer Andrew Dabb revealed that the remaining Season 12 will feature three “really strong Castiel episodes.” First being the Feb. 2 instalment and the second one is the following episode airing on Feb. 9. According to the EP, episode 11 is “extremely Cas-heavy in a different way.” The third Castiel-heavy segment is episode 19.

    When did a story about Dean about Castiel as well can’t they give Jensen a descent story on his own i would far be more interested in a Dean story than cass so why have they decided to do this

    Comment by Rachelle — February 2, 2017 @ 10:04 pm

  2. Family Feud” — (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV)

    SAM AND DEAN ASK ROWENA TO FIND CROWLEY’S SON – When Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) look into a murder at a museum, they learn a ghost from a merchant ship that sunk in 1723 may be at the heart of the mystery. After realizing “The Star” was the same ship that Crowley’s (Mark A. Sheppard) son Gavin McLeod (guest star Theo Devaney) should have been aboard, they enlist help from Rowena (guest star Ruth Connell) to track Gavin down. Kelly Kline (guest star Courtney Ford), still pregnant with Lucifer’s child, takes refuge with a demon after an angel attempts to kill her. PJ Pesce directed the episode written by Brad Buckner and Eugenie Ross-Leming (#1213). Original airdate 2/23/2107.

    Well that sounds like an incredible episode not !!!! sounds boring and unnecessary to story arch

    Comment by Keri — February 2, 2017 @ 10:17 pm

  3. This episode was okay, but I liked last week’s better, I thought last week’s was more suspenseful and intense.

    More things that didn’t make sense in last night’s episode – The “cosmic consequences” make no sense. Death’s death has had no consequences and that was DEATH. The show has completely forgotten about that. Also, what was with Dean not being able to see when in the one scene and Sam could? It was a flashing neon sign that went nowhere. It was made obvious for some reason, then never brought up again. Was Dean affected for some reason? I’m sure it will never be brought up again.

    I don’t know what they’re doing with Mary, but the way they’re writing her, to me she’s coming off as cold and not wanting to know or spend time with her sons. The show has ruined Mary for me.

    Comment by Chelsea — February 3, 2017 @ 5:01 am

  4. I really liked this episode a lot.

    It finally showed a little more warrior Castiel again. He was mocked by being weak, but it was finnaly adressed as him turning a little more human, for the good.

    Dean was a little bit of a hypocrite, if tables were turned he would have done the same (killing Billie).

    Glad they talked it out and that Cas had a chance to make it right with Lily. It was no surprise he was the one to kill that angel of course.

    Very refreshing episode, loved it.

    Next week I hope its not gonna be goofy Dean with no memory, but that its gonna be very sad.

    Also when are we getting a scary episode again?

    Comment by Robin — February 3, 2017 @ 7:01 am

  5. Am I the only one considering that they may be giving castiel so much screen time because it is his last season?

    I enjoyed this episode, nothing amazing but nothing terrible either.

    Comment by Ash — February 3, 2017 @ 7:12 am

  6. I’ve always said that the one thing that could get me to stop watching the show was if the focus was no longer on the brothers.

    Now I think the point has finally been reached after a looong build-up of less and less brotherly interaction over the last couple of seasons.

    This ridiculously over-the-top focus on the so-called bromance between Cas and Dean is a disservice to SPN’s early years and to the show’s characters.

    In what world- no seriously, explain it to me- is Castiel really Dean’s best friend? I mean, even disregarding everything Cas has done to backstab them in the past (like breaking down Sam’s wall), I cannot recall a single meaningful scene that displayed a ‘normal’ friendship between these two, least of all a particularly good one. They don’t have any common interests, they never actually hang out and most of the time Cas is little more to them than a trusty/dorky sidekick to get them out of trouble or teleport them from one point to another.

    I used to just skip through all the Cas scenes, but when even episodes like “Regarding Dean” which could have potentially had some meaningful Winchester moments in them suddenly revolve around Cas, I draw the line.

    We’ve had two significant reunions between the brothers this season and nothing but a raspy “You good?” exchanged between them, and yet we have to sit through tons of ridiculously cheesy moments between Cas and Dean where they explain their feelings for each other and cry out one another’s names in slow-mo.

    Sorry, but I’m not interested. Hope these show runners notice that they’re running the show into the ground with their fan-servicing.

    Comment by Fi — February 3, 2017 @ 7:32 am

  7. wasn’t my fave episode it was kind of boring and looked pretty cheap looking i hoping next week episode is mostly about Dean but there is a lot of spoilers that it also cass heavy as well which i hoping is just a rumor because shouldn’t a episode called Regarding Dean be about Dean
    i thought the see no evil trailer that the scenes from that would be in this episode ie the Black veins and Sam covering his ears but didn’t happen so must be in the next Cass episode as i said before better not be in next week episode
    i thinking that when Dean says Sam is my brother Mary is my mother and Cass in my best friend will either be in next week episode which would make sense if he losing his memory
    few thing bugged me still in episode Mary light again i mean is she even in the show they Dabb was saying she will be more in this half of the season they are really really not putting a rush in putting her in episodes she is such a wasted and un necessary story plot i think they thought it was going to be a cool story arch and then they backed themselves into a corner that they don’t know how to get out of
    and another thing is Mark Sheppard even in the show anymore we didn’t get him this episode we get Rowena next episode but i don’t think he is in the next one and the next one after that is stuck in the middle which is a mary Episode it is such a shame that his character is Wasted and not used love Crowley way better than cass there is more meat to his character

    Comment by Keri — February 3, 2017 @ 7:46 am

  8. didn’t watch. can’t watch that much of misha collins.

    Comment by slh — February 3, 2017 @ 8:38 am

  9. I don’t get the cas hate, I really don’t; if he was a newbie hogging screen time that would be different but like dean said yesterday “You’ve been with us throughout the whole crazy ride, season 4 is when things got crazy. and people who think their hasn’t been brother interaction have early season blinders on, i refuse to stop watching this show just because it’s not like it once wa…as long as all there is a problem to be dealt with every week and issues between characters don’t linger i am good…this season has been better than the last three put together!

    Comment by Joshua — February 3, 2017 @ 9:29 am

  10. Castiel is seriously the worst thing that ever happened to this show.

    Comment by Julia — February 3, 2017 @ 12:06 pm

  11. @1 Rachelle. I just watched the promo of “Regarding Dean” about his memory loss and Castiel is nowhere to be seen. Just Dean, Sam and Rowena. I don’t know if he’s in it, but it’s definitely not a Cass-heavy episode at all. Everything suggests he isn’t even there and it’s mostly just Sam and Dean.

    I think the place where you found that info has messed up the dates or got the info wrong from Dabb.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 3, 2017 @ 12:27 pm

  12. Black Lightning is coming to CW, more superhero shows, so Supernatural can stick around if it wants because there is nothing else on.

    Comment by Jayday — February 3, 2017 @ 2:51 pm

  13. Gone are the good old days when this show was creative and out of the box now the show is more about fizz and than making an impact in creativity i mean we had sucide teddy bears, french mistake etc now they can’t even give us a good story arch or a big bad i mean there are three story arch going on this year Mary, British men of letters, lucy and the baby and have seen not much of them i mean Mary is a complete waste of character that they do nothing about. apparently there is meant to be a butting of heads between British men of letters and the American hunters there is no even a whisper of that happening yet and don’t get me started on the Lucifer story which they have done so many times we get it again
    i can see that this show is going out with a fizz more than a bang it really has gone downhill this year with this years show runners and bad writing team

    Comment by Keri — February 3, 2017 @ 4:09 pm

  14. OK, this was actually a good episode. It was the ONLY good episode of season 12 so far.

    Astoundingly, it was a Castiel-centric episode. Normally, I cringe every time Castiel walks onto the screen, but he was used rather well here.

    This episode managed to add to the angel mythology, but it didn’t contradict well-established cannon.

    Overall grade for this episode: A-

    Season average (for the other 9 episodes): C+

    Comment by JJA — February 3, 2017 @ 4:33 pm

  15. FYI — the actor who played the angel Ishim (Ian Tracey) also played Lee Chambers in season 7’s “Adventures in Babysitting.”

    As we all know, Lee Chambers is father to the infamous Krissy Chambers.

    In real life, Ian Tracey is the father of Keenan Tracey, who played Christoph in this season’s Hitler episode “The One You’ve Been Waiting For.”

    Comment by JJA — February 3, 2017 @ 6:58 pm

  16. I keep asking myself, what was the point? The only answer I can come up with is that the Winchesters, Crowley, and all the angels of heaven won’t be able to defeat the spawn of Lucifer without a super powered female’s eye.

    @10, Julia, I’m afraid I’d have to put him at #2. The silly, comic strip writers of SN get my vote for #1.

    Comment by Taz — February 3, 2017 @ 7:00 pm

  17. Spoiler Alert!
    This is how episode 16 of season 12 ends.

    Speeding into __ future

    to be continue ….

    interesting but with this show at the moment it could really really suck not putting much hope

    Comment by Keri — February 3, 2017 @ 7:45 pm

  18. @13, Keri, great post!

    Comment by Jamie — February 3, 2017 @ 8:25 pm

  19. Really, all those saying that Castiel is the worst thing of Supernatural or something like that are full of sh@#@#@#. Period.
    This said, Castiel (with the Angel mythology) raised the bar of Supernatural, evolved it to become more than “just” fighting monsters and demons. And even after the apex of Supernatural, he still was awesome (except in that whole “Crazy Cas” in season 7, that sucked).
    But as we know the show has decayed, and so did Castiel, and while it’s been true for a while (for me, since season 10) that he became mostly pointless, dull, weak, dumb, etc., it’s really unfair to disregard all the exceptional contribution that Castiel, thanks to Misha Collins, brought to the show. The character may have gone way past the point, but he’s remarkable nonetheless, I am grateful (and you should be too) for his legacy.

    Comment by Fulan — February 3, 2017 @ 8:49 pm

  20. I’m 100% with you Fulan. Yes, he became lame after S8 when he turned human and that never really changed again. But the way people discredit the character before that is very, very unfair and I don’t get the hatred. And also the hypocrisy of some when they say Cas did more bad things dan the brothers.

    And like JJA, I thought last episode was very good and Misha/Cas was great overal.

    Comment by Robin — February 4, 2017 @ 12:00 am

  21. @Julia. No, the worst thing that has ever happened to the show was Kripke leaving.

    @Fulan and @Robin. I agree Castiel was a great introduction back in the day. Not just him, but the angels in general. However, the nature of their species had an expiration day from the beginning: the Apocalypse. Unlike demons who have been on earth since forever, angels walked the earth for the first time in a long time for the Apocalypse only. After that, it doesn’t feel natural that they have stayed. They are keeping the angels around just to keep Cass, which is fanservice, which in my book is bad writing.

    Krike used to say that if you want a character to stick around, you need a good damn reason to do so. That hasn’t been the case with Cass in a long time. Being an angel creates many problems for the storyline and the writers just don’t know what to do with him anymore. That’s why some people are tired of him. But there are a lot who still love him.

    I don’t agree at all that Castiel has been the worst thing story-wise happening to the show. But in terms of fandom, the introduction of Misha Collins who unashamedly feeds the crazy shippers who have harassed cast (Jensen being their latest victim), writers, producers and directors, who has publicly called the show “misogynist” (ignoring that he benefits from that) and encourages them to preassure the TPTB team to make him more relevant, has divided the fandom more than ever. I’m not saying he’s a bad guy at all, and his charity is awesome, but a lot of trouble in this fandom could have been avoided if he had stopped pandering his minions (only the bad ones) to get attention. A lot of hate towards his co-workers and the hand that feeds him could have been avoided.

    Things for the fandom had been completely different if Mark Pellegrino had gotten the role. He and Misha were both considered for it.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 4, 2017 @ 2:33 am

  22. That said, I surprisingly found this episode kinda interesting. Too bad Castiel still gets beaten down, but at least Lily an her story was interesting.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 4, 2017 @ 2:35 am

  23. The one thing I liked the most this episode is that Cas wasn’t just called weak again but that it was actually adressed. And that was explained why he changed and + Sam said it was for the good that he did.

    Getting beaten down was a shame but him killing that angel was justice. His speech to Lily was also very good.

    I agree with you emmanuel altough I don’t follow their personal lives or ‘fandom’ or social media. I truly only care about the show and the characters.

    Comment by Robin — February 4, 2017 @ 4:08 am

  24. @Robin, staying away from the fandom is the best thing you can do. It looks like a family from the outside, but it’s rotten inside. You’ll avoid the influence of other factors that shouldn’t have anyting to do with the show.

    I don’t usually care about the actors’ personal lives, but Jensen and Jared’s real-life friendship is as good (if not better) than their on-screen brotherly bond. It’s beautiful to watch, really. They are still joined by the hip after all these years. They are funny and cute, as well as other members of the cast. But yeah, those factors shouldn’t affect the vision of the show, just what happens on-screen.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 4, 2017 @ 4:42 am

  25. i have finally had the time to sit down and re watch the first 8 episodes again i have not liked many of this seasons episodes i am hoping that i like them more the second time
    well watched first 3 i love the first two episodes episode three the Budget must have been put towards rowena getting rid of luicifer because the ghost children looked so fake i always loved the end of the episode where Mary not the Mary bit but the dean backing away bit i still hoping i like the rest but i doubt it because they sound dumb

    Comment by Keri — February 4, 2017 @ 5:03 am

  26. What i am hoping will happen by the end of this season because i am hoping that things will end this season and be done with it i am hoping not that because they got early renewal that we not going to get the same crap this year carry on to season 13

    so what i am hoping for will end
    Mary please kill her the character is not needed or wanted she is not really that likable and does nothing for the show
    Luifer story line and evil baby please do not carry on this storyline
    The British men of letters just get it over with this year so we don’t get this crap next year
    I Love for cas to be over and done with on the show but we all know this is not going to happen due to the fact that with Jared and Jensen has young children they need time off to be with them so they need Mischa to Stick around
    But for Chuck Stake they need to do something both with Castiel and Crowley to make them interesting for the show
    Rowena she hasn’t been that important to the show just get rid of her
    i hoping the the cosmic thing will be really big thing that they will end with a cliff hanger for next season

    Comment by Keri — February 4, 2017 @ 5:11 am

  27. Keri, I would like to add that god needs to return one more time to adress some issues regarding all 4 of them

    Comment by Robin — February 4, 2017 @ 6:09 am

  28. I’m currently halfway season 3 and I came to the conclusion: all of you say the focus needs to be on the brothers, but it shouldn’t. Some storyline episodes should be about Cas/Crowley/Sam/Dean/Rowena,

    But, the focus should be on the cases and the characters involved. Watching episodes like Red Sky At The Morning, Tall tales etc you actually get into the story and its exciting.

    Nowadays the stories are half assed and the focus is mostly on the drama between the leading characters, which makes it so repetive. How many times has dean been mad at sam, or the other way around? Or cas being called weak? Or crowley being called a bored king?

    A few times every season they need an episode focussing on the main storyline, but to me the standalone episodes need to be about a case/urban legend.

    @emmanuel; yeah agreed. I remember in season 4 that awful becky character mentioning ‘’ or something like that. Thats when I knew that was based on idiots fantasizing about that. Same goes for ‘destiel’.

    I do watch gag reel and sometimes cons, and I like to see them joking around with eachother (all 4 of them, and also including regulars like mark pellegrino/jim beaver/the guy playing chuck etc)

    Speaking of season 3, the biggest mistake that the writers ever made was replacing Katie Cassidy with genevieve. I know it was because of financial reasons but that version of Ruby was amazing. Also cool to see that she and Lauren (bella) were credited as main characters. I miss them.

    Comment by Robin — February 4, 2017 @ 7:04 am

  29. The episode was exactly what I thought it would be coming from this particular writer. The writers backround in writing is writing for gay relationships. And that was abound in this episode. I found it interesting reading reactions on other boards regarding this episode. The queerbating in this episode was grandiose I thought. But I think that was the reason this writer was hired. To keep just enough imaginary subtext to keep a certain part of the fandom watching. I frankly thought this episode was boring as hell. Angels are boring as hell. Cas is boring as hell. Collins acting is getting worse as he goes. He brings nothing fresh to the character at all. His fight scenes are inadequate to say the least.

    I read someone posted that canon wasn’t busted in this episode-ummm yea it was. First of all ANNA was cas’ boss. That was forgotten. Cas said himself he was there when man came out of the water. That was forgotten as well. I did like that the burnt wings made a comeback-that was nice. Frankly the story was interesting but the final product was boring as hell. Onto better things. I will never watch this one again. Add it to the other cas episodes I won’t watch.

    Comment by animala — February 4, 2017 @ 7:04 am

  30. @animala, I think you are (and correct me if I’m wrong) in a state of mind that you consider that the interactions between Dean and Cass are queerbaiting because you know what some loud people on the internet are gonna say about it. Dean and Cass caring about each other is not queerbaiting. I’m gay, and I just don’t understand this crazy obsession (not yours, but others) about this “subtext” which only is in the eye of the beholder. In other shows, guys say “I love you” to each other constantly, but no one on those fandoms think they really want to bang each other. Brotherly love between guys exists, and I know because that’s the kind of love I have for my straight male friends. And definitely, I don’t want to bang them.

    Everytime I see those scenes in other shows (Vikings, Sons of Anarchy, for example), I can’t help but think about what would happen if that scene was on SPN. And I’m talking about more moving and heartfelt scenes than anything Dean and Cass have ever shared. Honestly, Destiel have VERY LITTLE to work with, and it’s shippers freaking out for ridiculous things is an indication of that. The people of other fandoms don’t take it as something romantic but frienship, which a can be a kind of love as strong as the romantic kind. But Dean and Cass? It’s not even that.

    What’s the difference between those fandoms and this one? Usually, the maturity of that small but vocal part of the fandom. Genre shows like this one tend to attract girls with an unhelthy obsession for romantic relationships, even the non-canon ones, specially slash pairings (Teen Wolf, Sherlock) specially in a show like SPN where there’s barely romance and it’s focused on relationships between men.

    @animala, I just don’t get why you thing they are baiting. Because they are friends. You know the show has made far more jokes about Wincest and how people in the show believe hey are a couple, they are literaly soulmates and the show is literally about the special love the’ve got for each other. But you KNOW it’s not THAT kind of love, not romantic but brotherly, which is presented on this show as the most powerful bond between two guys.

    So my question is: If most people (even the Wincest shippers, who generally know the difference between canon and fanon) can take the kind of special love between Sam and Dean have for each other as what it is, FAMILY, why people can’t do the same with Dean and Cass frindship, which isn’t even that special?

    Answer: Most people can. The general audience. But the vocal shippers think that if the preassure enough they are gonna make it canon. Specially because Dean and Cass are not brothers.

    My point it’s I get why people think they are queerbaiting just because they care and are nice to each other (and it’s not always like this) as little as if the same thing (and even more) is done with Sam and Dean. It’s the same thing, really.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 4, 2017 @ 4:21 pm

  31. Honestly, I think even Sam and Cass have shared more sincere moments lately (see the difference between Sam and Castiel’s hug and the other one). But they don’t care about that. They take it of what it is, but they are incapable of doing the same with Dean and Cass. It’s so ridiculous and so sad. Specially when they have been told they are wrong so many times by the people who matter in the show.

    Oh, and @animala, they are not saying those things because this episode was special. They say the exact same thing in every episode featuring Castiel, even when they barely interact (they find “clues”). Hell, even when Castiel isn’t in the episode, they find “parallels” (the rest of us call the “delusions” or “what show were you watchin?”

    Comment by emmanuel — February 4, 2017 @ 4:32 pm

  32. Rectification: “…not romantic but brotherly, which is presented on this show as the most powerful bond between two PEOPLE.” Not necessarily guys. Men can be in love of each other too (I am). But if they are not, they are not. Same for a man and a woman or two women. I wanted to clarify that to be sure no one take it the wrong way.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 4, 2017 @ 4:48 pm

  33. Emmanuel actually I agree with your posts. The only think I take a bit of an issue with is your interpretation that my state of mind that any Dean and cas scenes together are queeerbaiting is not true. Not at all. However that does seem the case with the destielers. Look here is my reasoning on the queerbaiting. If -and we all know- Destiel will never be canon – Yet we have scenes that the destielers seem to see destiel in then the writing is baiting them. The wording, the placement of characters, ect.. Example the impala scene in this episode. It was just plain crap. Men do not do silent treatments. The scene was written like the characters were women. Therefore destielers basked in the “married” scenario. Then we have the parallel once again between the female with the eye and the really really bad angel guy-Sorry didn’t pay that much attention to details like names ect… on this episode just reciting what destielers said. -and cas and Dean. Same as Cain and his wife. The way it was written could be construed that the love was the same. I don’t know if I am being clear here. Its hard to describe something I personally don’t see but understand what/why destielers might.

    Comment by animala — February 4, 2017 @ 6:32 pm

  34. Now if you want to say my bias against Collins/cas keeps me from enjoying any cas and Dean scenes when they are together in a scene. OK that I would agree with. But that I see it as queerbaiting all the time-no not at all.

    Comment by animala — February 4, 2017 @ 6:41 pm

  35. Emmanuel I guess I am just saying the writer imo was queerbating within the way he scripted things and the words that he wrote. Please don’t ask me for specifics because I personally wasn’t that interested or entertained by this episode to be able to recite specifics. I am strictly going on what destielers said and what they “thought” they saw/heard ect…. in the episode. I saw the episode and pretty much dismissed it and forgot what was even happening in it. It was boring as hell. And angels/caa are just there to take up time and space that I would rather see Dean and Sam in.

    Comment by animala — February 4, 2017 @ 6:54 pm

  36. @animala, I understand. But that feeling is because you know what they do, so you end up wishing Dean and Cass don’t have any interaction knowing that they are going to blow it out of proportion. But it’s THEIR problem, not the writers’.

    Actually, according to that logic, the brothers have been compared to romantic couples waay more often. Doesn’t mean they ARE a couple, but sometimes relationships mirror each other despite the different nature of those relationships. Recent examples:

    -In the episode with the gay hunter couple, their relationship was obviously mirroring Sam and Dean’s, but the Destielers (as always) deluded themselves into thinking it was about Dean/Cass. When the writer was asked on twitter he confirmed the parallel was for the brothers, which caused the wrath of the Destielers, accusing him of supporting incest. The poor guy couldn’t believe what he was hearing and proceeded to explain that even if there’s a parallelism, it doesn’t mean the relationship between the brothers is romantic. Anyway, it didn’t have ANYTHING to do with Cass. He got a lot of hate a lost a lot of followers for sinking their delusion.

    -Not too long ago we got an episode which was admitedly by Jared a homage to “Romeo and Juliet” where Dean commits suicide thinking Sam is dead. I can’t imagine if that had happened with Dean and Cass instead.

    -The Cain/Collette parallel you mentioned, I don’t even know WHY anyone would think it has anything to do with Castiel. According to the destielers, because Cass asked Dean to stop (a lot of people did) and Cass trusted in Dean’s goodness, like Collette, which was the whole point of the season finale with SAM trusting in Dean goodness. Every time Sam asked Dean to drop the Blade, he did, just like Collette, not Cass. He was the only one who made him snap out of it. Sam was both Abel and Collette for Dean, because, you know parallelism is not always that rigid and simple. Who said Dean should have a Collette anyway? For some reason, the fandom created that rule. Love made both Cain and Dean snap out the influence of the Mark. In Cain’s case, the strongest connection he had with someone was with his wife, for Dean his brother. Doesn’t mean the nature of their love is the same, but equally strong.

    Why some people don’t get this is beyond me.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 5, 2017 @ 3:14 am

  37. My point was @animala (and I think you already get it) is that you think about shipping just because you KNOW they are going to think about shipping, but if you didn’t know about them, you’ll probably take it as what it is: a friendship. Not the writers fault. They are a lot to blame, but not this. Because if the brothers have been compared to romantic couples (“office romance vibe”, “old married couple”) more often and you can take those as what they are (NOT literal comparisions), why not the same with Dean and Cass when their case pales in comparision?

    Yeah, I know, because you know what they are gonna say. Newsflash: they are gonna say it anyway. Even when Dean kicked Cass out of the bunker with no money and no food, despite angels wanted to kill him, they kept twisting things in their minds to see Destiel.

    Is Dean and Castiel’s friendship fanservice? Maybe. The writers are like “Look, we love their friendship and you are getting it”. But queerbaiting? How many times Dean has to call Cass “family” and “brother” so people get it? That’s the writers’ doing too.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 5, 2017 @ 3:28 am

  38. This whole shipping bullshit is the most childish thing I have ever seen

    Not ever have I seen fans of a show acting like OH they are a romantic couple!!!

    Lol, dean and sam are brothers who been thru alot together and castiel has been by their side no matter what happens. Thats it, nothing more.

    Comment by Robin — February 5, 2017 @ 4:36 am

  39. @Robin. Exactly! That was my whole point.

    This problems in other fandoms also happen, believe me. I’ve seen fans of other shows parroting the same bullshit word by word. They all say the same stupid things. But it has gotten of of hand in this fandom, specially because they leave their comments in every SPN website including the official FB, Youtube and Twitter accounts, making impossible to avoid it.

    There are good shippers that understand the difference between canon and fanon and just do their thing for fun, being careful of posting only in sites about shipping and making sure people who want to talk about the show itself can avoid it easily if they want. No problem with that. The problem is when the shove their invented ship down everyones’ throats and insult everyone who dares to call them out on it or contradict them.

    Childish indeed, and SAD.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 5, 2017 @ 6:03 am

  40. When on the good side i was going to give up the show i started watching this season again i not giving up on it at the moment i mean this season is not the best it ever been but it still some what enjoyable they still got a lot to go with this season they really needed a good story arch for this season and i miss the gore and the scare the show used to have and the humor is off as well and they really needed something for the Winchesters to fight against Having Mary introduce was a bad mistake i mean she comes off as an uncaring mother for the little amount we seen of her i mean it is a good thing that she wasn’t in every episode i mean Sam and Dean would be worrying about there mother to much if she was on cases with them But she goes off hunting by herself now and not even trying to get a connection with her grown sons i know she missed a lot but still she could be trying. i am so sick and tried of lucifer being on the show surely they could of come up with something else. I not a cass Fan and having three episodes of him is just to much but that is my option that i don’t like the character and i love what micha does with his charity every year but i never been a cass fan and for me his character is just the worst this year i was expecting what the show runners was promising and bringing back season four cass but not happening at moment. Crowley and Rowena they would be cool unique characters if they put more meat into there characters i mean does Crowley have an anything happening at this year mark is not in it much . and i hate the British men of letters they could of been a really cool story arch but the show runners haven’t flesh them out enough there should of been more back stabbing with them againist the Winchesters for a story arch i hoping that the cosmic consequences is going to be a huge story arch so maybe there will be a cliffhanger at the end to get exicited for next year

    Comment by Keri — February 5, 2017 @ 6:45 am

  41. Emmanuel-your assessment of my reaction to Dean and cas is not entirely accurate. My reaction comes from the actors actually.NOt the fictional characters. Collins to be more specific. Destiel -the rabidness of it started with Collins. The fact that he won’t come to a so called “friends” aide when that so called “friend”(Jensen mostly but others too) are being attacked by stating the obvious and the truth is what sets off the frustration. Or maybe if he doesn’t want to upset his main fanbase then tell writers to watch what/how they are writing ect to reinforce the truth and help out his costars and so called “friends”.

    Comment by animala — February 5, 2017 @ 7:57 am

  42. I stand by my assessment that this writer did write certain scenes that could be misconstrued as queerbating. -If you go by what destielers saw. Not by what I remember I saw/heard ect… but by what they see/heard. Look one of the main leads is getting hammered by this faction of the fandom-He is out their pretty much on his own taking the hits. So it would be nice if this writer and others, and Collins would help him out by being sensitive to what destielers pick up on. Even if its in their minds. If it was up to me I would get rid of cas altogether that would put it to a screeching halt on the show but I know I know that ain’t ever going to happen. Damn it. lol.

    Comment by animala — February 5, 2017 @ 8:03 am

  43. Here is a case and point. The scene in this episode where Dean does the sigil. Would it have mattered to you or any “normal” spn watcher if instead of Dean in that scene it was Sam? It wouldn’t have for me. If it was Sam then the queerbating (in the eye of destielers) would not have been there. Just to make it clear. I am calling it queerbating not destielers. They call Destiel. Yeah I know. lol.

    Comment by animala — February 5, 2017 @ 8:45 am

  44. Sam would have done the same thing. And why would that matter?

    They only used dean because it was a choice dean had to make to save cas, which was a huge risk with that other angel around. Just irony because he was giving castiel shit for doing the same thing last episode.

    Personally it wouldn’t mean anything if it was Sam, but for the context it made sense it was Dean.

    Has nothing to do with them being gay or anything lol. Some fans SMH.

    @animala dude, or girl, your hatred for Misha is clearly clouding your judgement. I enjoy reading your posts but all the cas bashing (and defending dean and sam when they mess up just like cas does) is a little unfair.

    Comment by Robin — February 5, 2017 @ 9:00 am

  45. @Robin- “Personally it wouldn’t mean anything if it was Sam, but for the context it made sense it was Dean”. What context are you talking about.

    “Sam would have done the same thing”. Precisely my point.

    “Just irony because he was giving castiel shit for doing the same thing last episode. No-last episode the consequence for killing billie is “cosmic” in this episode its not. Or are you referring to something else?

    Mind not clouded- Not sure what you are referring to here. Which comment that I made are you referring to?

    Comment by animala — February 5, 2017 @ 12:04 pm

  46. And Robin do you agree that Jensen is out there on his own getting hammered and that Misha could put a stop to it immediately? If so why do you think Misha won’t help a person he calls “his friend”?

    Comment by animala — February 5, 2017 @ 12:07 pm

  47. SMH?????????? What? sorry don’t know what that stands for.

    Comment by animala — February 5, 2017 @ 12:11 pm

  48. Re watched this season i have enjoyed it for the most part i mean it isn’t the supernatural we loved in it’s hay day where we had writers and showrunners that thought out of the box i miss the unique episodes i mean it was just last year that we got baby episode and now it is least creative still enjoyable but still hasn’t got the humor the gore and the scars in the shows hayday

    i don’t think this is Cass last year i think we are getting all the cass episodes due to the fact of the leads new family additions. i personality am not a Cass fan but i think it how he is now written i mean his fish out of water thing was funny at the beginning but after so many years they can’t do it anymore and they can’t make him very powerful due to the fact that Sam and Dean need to be the heroes of the story and if they had a powerful cass then he would get them out of situations easier. It a shame that they need to do a lot more cass stories to cover the Jared and Jensen not being in episodes but think about it supernatural has one of the smallest casts in in the Entire CW Network there is really two mains characters and then two co stars so when they missing there is not a lot of choice of characters to cover them. what i would like to see the rest of the season they need to decide what they going to do with Mary i hoping that she won’t last pass this season because she is not well written she in episodes then she is out there is no real connection to her boys with better writers they could of done something special
    The British men of letters they really needed to if they were the big bad of the season they needed to make them as more backstabbing going behind the Winchesters back Sam and Dean know nothing of Ketch killing the Girl or killing all the people at the prison but still nothing Cass before the show started it stated by Dabb that we were going back to season four cass still n ot seeing it and i don’t know if we are going to see it this year. they there was interview with Mark and Mischa about them teaming up like cops shows in eighties well that sounded funny but it has lasted only a few episodes and looks like it finished i hoping that lucifer and Baby only lasts this season and no more at one of the latest conventions Singer said that Mark Pellegrino was returning there has been no spoilers on that topic you think it would turn up in spoilers by now. i hoping that the cosmic thing will be the cliffhanger for this year and it something really cool i still stunned that they never used Dean killing death wasn’t a Story arch but that is my thing

    Comment by Keri — February 6, 2017 @ 1:36 am

  49. 47. SMH means Shaking My Head.

    I don’t think this will be Cas’ last year either. I think it just looked that way these past few seasons because he’s so superfluous, but there’s rarely any rhyme or reason with this character, IMO.

    I’ve accepted the fact that we’ll never be rid of the angels. They’re too easy crutch for lazy writers who don’t want to waste their A game on a 12th season show.

    Mary has the same problems with me that Amara had last year. She was a hook that the writers had no idea what to do with the following season (Jensen mentioned that before), and she didn’t have an interesting enough personality for me to care.

    Comment by hadrian — February 6, 2017 @ 3:12 am

  50. I think this would have been cas’ final season if Clinton won the white house. NO I am not starting a political thing hear. I just am of the opinion that if Clinton would have won -Collins would have went to work in the white house like he did before. Cas’ “arc” just seems to be that he was going to give up his life for whatever reason. Now that Clinton lost I think TPTB changed up cas’ story so he will still be around.

    Comment by animala — February 7, 2017 @ 2:10 pm

  51. Collins should be crying again -the ahole that he is. He cried when Clinton lost and now Devos got confirmed even though he got on his facebook pleading with his followers to call senators to vote against her. He is just one big looser. He needs to just shut the hell up and try to act and leave politics out of the show.

    Comment by animala — February 7, 2017 @ 5:36 pm

  52. I dunno I have never seen him talk about Clinton on Supernatural

    Comment by Robin — February 8, 2017 @ 8:25 am

  53. @Robin-I noticed you still haven’t answered my question regarding collins and helping out Jensen and why he won’t . Hmmmmm. Truth hurts don’t it?

    Come on you know what I was talking about in regards to Collins and using the spnfamily to do his political BS.

    Comment by animala — February 8, 2017 @ 6:45 pm

  54. I indirectly answered that question though.

    I said I don’t care about ‘Collins’ or ‘Ackles’, just about Castiel & Dean. I don’t follow social media stuff at all and I only watch some cons to get information on the show.

    Comment by Robin — February 8, 2017 @ 11:36 pm

  55. Ok fair enough you don’t follow social media stuff. But I am asking for your opinion on something. Kind of like if I asked you what would you do if your dog keeps barking. Why doesn’t Collins help out Jensen when it comes to destiel? Simple question.

    Comment by animala — February 9, 2017 @ 3:52 am

  56. @amimala–The answer to your question is simple: Misha is much more easier going about LGBT things than Jensen. Yeah, I know JA has a lesbian aunt and all that stuff but I don’t think he’s that comfortable with gay men. JA takes Diestiel too seriously and that’s his problem.

    Comment by barry — February 9, 2017 @ 6:48 am

  57. Also, I thought Misha was EXCELLENT in this episode and will never understand all the absurd hate he gets on this site. He’s a talented actor and JA and JP clearly like him.

    Comment by barry — February 9, 2017 @ 6:50 am

  58. @barry. Sorry but that’s bullshit. Jensen has always been easy going with LGBT. I lost count how many times he has talked about how many times he and Jared have been mistaken as a couple in real life and he wasn’t offended the slightest. I just can’t understand WHY people think like you just because he won’t validate an inexistent ship. I don’t know why anyone who watches the conventions would think that about Jensen. It’s like people want to hear him say he’s into guys or he’s an homophobe, no matter how he respects everyone else.

    Ask yourself WHY Jensen is so fed up with Destiel only. Maybe because the shippers are arrogant, disrespectful, rude, etc? Maybe because they are so fucking pushy about something that never happened and insult him when they don’t hear what they want? Maybe Because people not only ship his character, but himself, the actor with his co-stars (both Jared and Misha) and fill the internet with lies about him and his wife (the open-relationship bullshit or the beard thing)? Maybe because they are so hateful that made people who work on the CW close their twitter account due to massive hate after debunking the ship?

    Don’t fool yourself and don’t try to fool others. He’s fed up with Destiel because they are disrespectful and treat him like shit. He’s been way more respectul with other slash ships like Wincest, even if it’s an even more fucked up than Destiel (Destiel is fucked up because Cass in not even human, he’s an angel of the size of the Chrysler building who’s wearing a walking dead man corpse), because they leave him alone most of the time.

    So he’s not comfortable with gay men because he says the truth about his character? Fuck off. There’s no other reason than that. What Misha does is not ok, LYING to them, promising them something that it’s not going to happen. What’s the word to define that?: QUEERBAITING. And when that obviously doesn’t happen, instead of blaming Misha they hate on the writers and everyone else, because Misha is the ONLY ONE saying what they wanna hear. Apparently Jensen has to lie to them too or he’s “uncomfortable with gay men” despite that he isn’t.

    But congratulations, you have bought the minions’ bullshit about “if you don’t like Destiel, you’ve got issues with gay men”. Damn right he’s uncomfortable with Destiel, but not for that reason. It’s because he’s probably tired of the pushing, the bullying and the lies. It’s too easy to say he takes it too seriously when it’s not you who have to deal with them. And screw them for putting him in those situations.

    By the way, I’m a gay man, and using the real LGTB problems just to try to force a non-existent ship is GROSS. Destiel is not representation. It’s just an excuse to shame everyone who points out the canon of the show into silence. And Misha taking advantage of it to manipulate his fans and try to become more important in the show isn’t ok either. He’s the one being disrespectful to his fans, not Jensen who won’t lie to them. Misha, a straight guy, uses the LGTB cause for his personal benefit. He’s so transparent that I don’t know how his fans are so easy to manipulate. And he’s smart. He knows how quickly they would turn on him if he stops pandering them.

    I’m a real life activist who learned martial arts to defend himself from bullying. I’ve fought all my life for the rights of LGTB people to get married, have kids and just the right to be. I’ve called an homophobe just for saying that Dean is straight by destielers more times that I can count. Because to them, it doesn’t matter anything else, just if you ship their fanon ship, which is the stupidest thing ever. So I get why Jensen is fed up with it. And I see the same in every disrespectful comment they send to him.

    So when I see a comment like yours, @barry, after all these years following Jensen and seeing how sweet he is to gay people, I don’t know if I should laugh or cry. Sorry if I sound disrespectful, but what you said is bullshit.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 9, 2017 @ 9:19 am

  59. By the way, just to be clear, I think Misha is using the LGTB cause by promising Destiel, not when he shows support for gay people. When he does that, I’m the first one to applaud him, just like I applaud his charity most of the times. Two different things. I don’t hate him, but I think his queerbaiting is not ok and other people who work with him get into trouble for it, including Jensen. If Misha hadn’t pandered the crazy shippers, they wouldn’t asked Destiel questions at Cons and Jensen wouldn’t have to be the one that says something they don’t wanna hear. Besides, most of the times he’s been respectful in his answer (and no, saying the truth is not “rude” like they claim).

    @barry. About Cass, most people here give reasons of why they don’t like him anymore, and I think it’s reasonable, if you bother to read them. It’s not blind hate. So instead of labeling negative criticism as “absurd hate” and leave it like that, maybe you can elaborate about why you like Cass and why you think others are wrong. It’s called conversation.

    Take a Castiel fan like @Robin. I always enjoy reading her posts. Sometimes I don’t agree with her, sometimes I do, but she always has a point. I respect her vision of the character and even if I don’t like him anymore and she does, we often agree about certain aspects. I try to be fair to the character. Actually I used to love Castiel. Not liking him anymore because of fair reasons is not “absurd hate”. It’s what we do here, we give reasons of why we like of dislike every character and Castiel/Misha is not different.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 9, 2017 @ 9:40 am

  60. @emmanuel 100% agree with your last part. One thing though, even if it doesn’t change one thing about the content of your post: I’m a guy haha.

    I have been saying how I have a crush on Kate Cassidy and how I hated her leaving for Genevieve but that doesn’t have to mean I’m a guy of course. I also like discussing things with people even if they disagree (sometimes you can agree with eachother on some points).

    I do think the hatred for Cas goes a little too far sometimes. @animala, you asked it like it is a regular question but I have no idea what you mean. I don’t follow them on social media so what they say outside of the script is unknown for me.

    Comment by Robin — February 9, 2017 @ 12:36 pm

  61. @Robin. OMG, I’m sorry! Yeah, I assumed you were female because… because it’s the most common thing in SPN websites, sadly. I say sadly not because I don’t enjoy women’s opinions, but because we need more male online presence in this fandom. It is funny that in real life I know more men who watch the show than women. Anyway, thanks for letting me know, man!

    By the way, I’m not into chicks, but I can appreciate female beauty perfectly fine, and I agree about Katie Cassidy. She’s beautiful! Probably the better looking woman in SPN for me, and definitely the best Ruby.
    Don’t get me wrong, I’m happy for Jared because he met Genevieve, his wife, and I really like her as a person, but I was never a fan of her acting. Katie was just perfect as Ruby.

    I understand that sometimes the Cass hate is too much here, but most people just give their honest opinion and give reasons that are often reasonable. It’s what we do: criticism. Other websites they do the same with Sam or Dean (which must suck for them, watching a main character they hate in every episode) and every other character. A lot of people in this fandom hate John Winchester, so why that is acceptable but disliking Cass isn’t allowed? I try to be fair with both Castiel and Misha. I just hope you don’t feel like I’m unreasonable about my criticism. I give the character and the actor merit for the good things they bring.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 9, 2017 @ 1:47 pm

  62. @emmanuel–I understand you see something in JA that I don’t and that’s fine. I stand by my personal belief though.

    Comment by barry — February 9, 2017 @ 2:05 pm

  63. Reading my posts I realized sometimes I repeat myself. It’s because I’m Spanish and my English isn’t great, so I feel like my point is not clear enough and I end up saying the same thing in different ways to make sure people understand. It’s not a conscious act. Sorry for that and for my many mistakes.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 9, 2017 @ 2:05 pm

  64. @barry. Then, it’s because you don’t want to see. Your theory doesn’t explain why he’s comfortable making gay innuendos with Jared and other co-stars, including Misha Rob, Richard, etc. Your theory doesn’t explain why he brings up other slash ships but he’s fed up with Destiel only. Give a good reason why you think he’s not comfortable with gay guys. And don’t say “because he is uncomfortable with Destiel” because that’s literally the only “gay” thing he’s uncomfortable with. And I don’t even think he’s uncomfortable. He has just said it’s not canon, which it isn’t, and he’s tired of people asking him and bulling him. He didn’t do anything disrespectful to the shippers, just pointing out the obvious.

    It’s not only that I see something in Jensen that you don’t. It’s that you are deliberately oblivious to the very offensive acts done by fans that caused that he is not taking any shit from them. And somehow, he’s the bad guy.

    But you keep throwing shade at him, making wild assumptions about him without any proof at all, all because a fanon ship that never happened. Nice.

    Comment by emmanuel — February 9, 2017 @ 2:48 pm

  65. @49, Hadrian, well said!

    Comment by Jamie — February 9, 2017 @ 4:17 pm

  66. @56 barry-so if Collins is a lot more comfortable with Destiel -don’t you think he would be comfortable telling them the truth and to leave his “friend” alone about it? And you still didn’t answer my question on WHY DOESN”T HE BACK UP HIS FRIEND?

    You say Jensen takes Destiel too seriously. What a laugh that is. The destielers take it too seriously-so much so they have to set Jensen up by lying about what question they are going to ask just to beat into him that he should believe in destiel. And call him names when he tells the truth about it. Come on man live in the real world and see the truth.

    Comment by animala — February 9, 2017 @ 6:20 pm

  67. Well I am still waiting here for either Robin or barry to tell me the answer to my question. Anybody???? I give it another 24 hrs then I will tell you why. Although Emmanuel came will close with his post.

    Comment by animala — February 9, 2017 @ 6:22 pm

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